18/06/2012 Daily Politics


18/06/2012

Jo Coburn with the latest political news, interviews and debate. She is joined by former adviser to Tony Blair, Matthew Taylor. Larry Elliott and Sajid Javid discuss the economy.


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Transcript


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Afternoon, welcome to the Daily Politics. The people of Greece vote

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in effect to stay in the euro. The New Democracy Party, which broadly

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supports the international bailout, achieved a narrow victory in

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yesterday's elections and is now trying to form a coalition

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government. World leaders meeting in Mexico have welcomed the result.

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But the euro's not out of the woods yet. The good ship coalition

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appears to be heading for choppy waters. We'll be looking at what

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might sink it. They get to smile and wave at the camera but is being

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a cabinet minister all it's cracked up to be? And we'll be lending

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members of the House of Lords a helping hand over their

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pronunciation. It appears some of them need it. President Harland is

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not President Hollander. I accept these wires rebukes about my

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pronunciation, it has never been very good soul or practise more. --

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good, so I will practise more. that in the next hour. And with us

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for the first half of today's programme is Matthew Taylor, the

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Chief Executive of the Royal Society for the encouragement of

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Arts, Manufactures and Commerce, or the RSA as it's better known!

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Welcome. Now Matthew also used to work for Tony Blair when he was

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Prime Minister, so we might as well start by asking him about the

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current spat in the Labour party. Some trade unions are attempting to

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expel the New Labour pressure group, Progress, from the party. On that

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basis is Ed Miliband actually listening to progress? Progress is

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an open organisation which represents the modernising strand

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of thought, Ed Miliband spoke recently and made clear yesterday

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he does not support this rather odd idea from the trade unions that he

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should be expelled. Saw a thing he has made his position clear. Trade

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unions tend to be debated by activists who tend to be more left-

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wing than activist so -- dominated. So calling for a think tank is just

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a token gesture but it gives Ed Miliband a chance to do what he has

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done more loudly, which has to say he is not standing for this

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nonsense. Peter Mandelson is saying Ed Miliband is listening closely to

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this new Labour think tank. Is that being provocative to the trade

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unions? Ensure the existence of Peter Mandelson on this earth is

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provocative to trade unions. It is clear he is speaking tour part of

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the party because he is leading this policy review so politicians

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are looking for good ideas, particularly at a time of austerity

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there are not that many around, so you will take them from wherever he

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can get them. He was clear yesterday that he wants the Labour

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Party to be a broad church. Is this a throwback to the Blair, Brown era,

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still in fighting, still splits. It does not give the Labour Party a

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great image. Because of our electoral system we have big

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parties that range widely. The Conservatives are the same, right

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wing, moderate Conservatives, it is the same in labour, they will

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always be people who say controversial things. The challenge

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for Ed Miliband is to work with that group of people but never

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looked like he is beholden to any faction. Now it's time for our

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daily quiz. The question for today is... Which of these bailout

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countries is no longer in the European Football Championship?

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We'll try and find out the answer for you by the end of the show. The

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big fear ahead of elections was that Greece may be forced out of

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the single currency. Has there been a sense of relief at the news

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voters might have backed the country then release supports the

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bail-out package. Then joined by its chief economist at Schroders.

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Any favourable response seems to have been wiped already. The relief

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rally was quite short lived. We got quite a nice start to the morning,

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Asia was rallying but what we have seen now as a focus on the bigger

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picture and there has been a sharp rise in Spanish bond deals this

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morning which have now gone over 7% so it looks like the markets are

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moving on from Greece and focusing on the bigger picture and looking

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at the problems in Spain. Do you think Greece is a sideshow on that

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With Greece, although it is problematic, the European Union has

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the resources to be able to solve that problem, they can keep funding

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Greece. The difficulty is what tons to they do it on and how much do

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they allow? The problem with Spain and the economy is it is very big

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and would absorb nearly all the resources that have been put aside

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for a crisis in the eurozone. So that is what the markets are

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concerned about. A what about looking ahead? If all the leaders

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are saying some time has been bought, what -- is their chance the

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markets will be calmed or will they just go after the other vulnerable

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countries in the eurozone? I think they're looking for the European

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Union to come up with a solution and I think that would have to be

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one where the debt in the eurozone is neutralised or brought across a

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common basis. In other words, Germany putting in funding to help

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support those countries through lower interest rates. Unless we see

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that I think the markets will continue to pick away at countries

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that are weak economically and have big debt problems. That means the

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problem could continue into next year and the problem comes back to

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the politicians who why the only ones who can provide that

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submission. Sajid doubt that it is the Conservative MP and economics

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editor of the Guardian, the Larry Elliott. -- Sajid David. I think at

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some point Greece may leave the euro of its own will be booted out

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by the rest of Europe. It is one of the four options for dealing with

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this crisis. Do you think the hints coming out of Berlin that Germany

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might relax the terms of the bail- out is going to change anything

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dramatically? I don't actually. I think the problems of Greece are so

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intractable that even more time is not going to solve the problem. The

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Germans are in a position where they do not want be responsible for

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breaking of the euro, they don't want to through Greece out, they

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want crease to come along and say we have had enough, we cannot cope.

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I think the Germans will make life difficult enough for Greece so that

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option happens. So that would make the Germans -- the lives of the

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Germans easier. Is that privately what the Conservatives would like

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to see? I don't think that's correct. Our view is now the euro

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has been created the genie is out of the bottle, we cannot reverse it,

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the best thing is to try and find a way for it to survive. Even with

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Greece in it? The at is up to Greece. The thing yesterday was the

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least bad of two options but the problems of the day before I still

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still -- still all there. Is David Cameron right to urge closer

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integration in the eurozone with a banking union under Germany's

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control? There are only four ways out of this crisis, one is that

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Greece and the other countries can have austerity forever. The other

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is to have high inflation, the third is that the Germans write

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cheques in definitely for the rest of the eurozone so they get their

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credit card out and fund everybody else's deficit, or they could be

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some kind of break-up. Unfortunately the eurozone has

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decided it doesn't want any of those options. So the result is

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kicking the can down the road and I think we are close to the end of

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that road. Why? You just heard about Spanish bombs at 7.1%, that

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suggests to me the end of the road is rapidly approaching. -- bombs. -

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We are told the issue is the Greek election, it goes the right way,

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but it makes no difference. All the small things will not do it, the

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only way to achieve change is from a level of leadership which seems

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to be beyond our current national leaders. What would that the bishop

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had to do? It would have to be what David Cameron is saying, a higher

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level of integration with Germany in the driving seat. That is the

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only way out of this. Otherwise the question is, is this a rapid or

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slow car crash? I think we are in agreement here. A single currency

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was never going to work without some kind of fiscal or political

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union, one has never survived so this problem was always going to

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occur. It requires decisive action by European leaders. Now is a time

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to make a decision. If you are talking about banking and closer

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fiscal integration, that will not happen tomorrow, that is not going

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to happen in a couple of weeks, it will not save Spain. The markets

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are now operating in a faster -- at The problem now is any of those

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political solutions that David Cameron has offered will take time

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and requires countries like Spain to be prepared to bow to German

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demands to be able to run their fiscal policy. I somewhat doubt the

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Spanish government will want the Germans in their saying you have to

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raise this amount of tax, you can only spend it on these issues.

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These issues are issues that national governments normally

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decide and the idea that Madrid or Rome will say we will allow Angela

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Merkel to take -- dictate the terms of our budget is improbable. I do

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not think we should let the does off the hook. If there was a short

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leadership at the G20 demonstrating politicians have moved to a

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different level of understanding of this, if the markets felt it was

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being gripped, the fact it might take time to work out the details,

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they need to feel there is a qualitative difference in the way

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leaders are gripping this. Why did we do it in 2008 and now it feels

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like we can't? Whereas the sense of urgency? Why does it appear that

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they are powerless to do anything? I think the European leaders really

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know what they need to do. Neutralise debts, have a banking

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union to have a common treasury. But that won't save the situation

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as it is now. Spain and Italy are in a perilous state at this moment.

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If European leaders set out concrete steps to achieve it it

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would change the situation. cannot ignore the markets. I spent

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20 years as a bond trader before it became a politician and you cannot

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buck the markets. The markets are looking at these countries and

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asking for action. It is up to the politicians in the eurozone to

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deliver. Our job is to protect our economy from this debt storm to

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deal with the debt we have inherited. How are they doing that?

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We cut our deficit for a quarter since this government was elected.

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But still no growth. We inherited an economy built on debt, we have a

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European debt storm building. At a time like that the main requirement

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is to protect the economy. Some of the measures you have seen, like

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last week, the funding for lending scheme, designed to protect the

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economy. Is it enough? I don't think so. These are stop-gap

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measures. The government is worried about the state of the economy.

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People I speak to say things have deteriorated in the last couple of

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months, the economy has deep structural problems and we're not

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going to get through those easily. The European problem makes it much

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We need to rebalance the economy away from debt and towards

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productive capacity of exports but that will not happen any time soon.

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Certainly not with the European debt crisis raging. Leaders can't

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really do anything against this, can they? All they can do globally

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is to call for leadership. Domestically, I think the problem

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is we are trying to move from an old house which was in many ways

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built on weak foundations and to actually build a new house based on

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strong foundations and it is not clear we can do both. So much

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energy is going to manage and the problems of the past and there is a

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lack of any credible account of what Britain will feel like in 15

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:15:27.:15:28.

In your book, you have talked about Britain heading for the Third World

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economy - how did you come to that conclusion? We have used the North

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Sea oil, will have 15 years were a real incomes don't grow at all, we

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will be in 2017 by the time in comes get back, we have had

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stalling public growth and we are struggling to find new sources of

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growth. Britain faces deep structural problems. We have

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papered over the cracks for many years, using the proceeds of North

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Sea oil, and now the bills are having to be paid. We have suddenly

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reached a reality check point and the UK economy is not a pretty

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picture. Do you share that gloomy prediction? No, if lorry is saying

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we are facing some serious challenges, of course we are. We

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are the seventh largest economy in the world and 60% of our trade is

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with the eurozone. The key right now is to make sure Britain remains

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a safe haven, that we keep low interest rates and deal with the

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deficit that we inherited, and try to deal with a lot of those

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problems. You will prove him wrong by 2014 then? Absolutely. He makes

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an important point, which is that we have not realised how far we

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have already slipped behind. Looking at average in comes and

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inequality, if you combine those we are falling down the league table

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in terms of income and up the table in terms of inequality. Great

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Britain is a very bad place to be poor and I don't think people have

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noticed how far we have slipped behind other countries. We have got

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hold of our correspondent in Athens. Can you hear me? There are pretty

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gloomy predictions from our guests here, what is the mood like in

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Athens after the election? The mood is pretty sober, to put it mildly.

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I am looking over constitution Square. Last night the place was

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almost deserted, apart from a few people letting off firecrackers for

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the sake of appearances. It is not hard to see why. It was tough in

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Greece yesterday, it will be tough for a long time to come. They are

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going through the process of trying to put the government together, but

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just imagine the coalition talks in Britain in 2010, then think of them

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faster and more complicated. At the end of it there will be a

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government, but it will have the difficult job of trying to get a

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better deal as far as the bail-out is concerned and selling it to the

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Greek people. Are you confident there will be some bail-out

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government formed in the next few days? They are confident there will

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be a government. We can be reasonably sure of that. At the

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moment the winner of the election, the New democracy party, is trying

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to find the main other party it could do business with, but that

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old Labour Party doesn't want to get into bed with the old enemy

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without getting someone else in there as well and that is proving

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difficult. It is looking like there will be a coalition, and then in

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gets really difficult. The powers- that-be are moving to soften the

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deal with Greece and that might help but it was tough before the

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elections persuading the Greek people the austerity would be worth

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it and it will get harder and harder. Thank you.

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A failing care system, a billion pound bill, hundreds of children

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reported missing and at risk of sexual abuse. An all-party group

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today has published a damning report on care homes, and before we

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go to the reporter - I have forgotten to say thank you to my

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guest - our reporter can tell us more. This report comes just a

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month after nine men were convicted in Rochdale of sexually exploiting

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young girls, one of hair -- one of whom was in a care home. I am

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joined now by Ann Coffey and Councillor David Simmons. What were

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the main findings of your report? We think the care system is failing

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some very vulnerable young people who go missing and run away, and

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thereby put themselves at risk of sexual grooming and exploitation.

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Propagator is not being collected, we don't know how many children go

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missing and crucially what they do when they go missing. There is

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inadequate data sharing between the police and children's services and

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the police have a duty to safeguard children. They should share data

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properly, and they have poor practices working together at a

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local level, which means children are not being safeguarded within

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the care system. Councillor David Simmons, why aren't you working

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more closely with the police in this terrible situation? This

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report makes very uncomfortable reading for anybody, in the police,

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the NHS, the voluntary sector responsible for children in the

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care system, but it is also clear that the multiple different sort of

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regulations, the way in which different police forces, different

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council's approach this has created a statistical fog. The key thing to

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helping children who are vulnerable is not just sharing data but also

:21:46.:21:50.

the intelligence about what is going on in their lives. When we

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think they might be at risk, we can pick that up and intervene earlier

:21:55.:22:01.

on. That requires good information sharing, from health professionals,

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please, Von Trier organisations and those responsible for running care

:22:06.:22:13.

homes. That is pretty shocking - the police and councils don't know

:22:13.:22:17.

where the care homes are, and many of them are in areas where there

:22:17.:22:22.

was already paedophilia. That is shocking, isn't it? It is shocking

:22:22.:22:27.

that a sexual predator can be sitting in a car outside children's

:22:27.:22:33.

home, targeting them, often having followed a child that has moved to

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escape sexual exploitation. The children don't even know the care

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home exist and sometimes the local authority doesn't even know the

:22:41.:22:45.

child has been placed there. That is what I mean about having to get

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a much better system of working together. Presumably this is about

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attracting the right people, some of whom work in a supermarket one

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day and next day they are responsible for the most vulnerable

:22:59.:23:04.

children. It was interesting that the people who came to give

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evidence talked about not being listened to, and part of that issue

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is not having the staff with the level of training skills that can

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hear what the young people are saying, here behind the words, and

:23:16.:23:21.

it is a big issue. This is why we want to further investigation into

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whether care homes are offering the kind of skills in supporting and

:23:27.:23:30.

protecting, safeguarding, and dealing with the underlying

:23:30.:23:38.

problems that cause children to go away. Is that a problem you

:23:38.:23:42.

recognise as well? A very much so, and I think it is a helpful

:23:42.:23:47.

recommendation that has come forward. At the moment Ofsted,

:23:47.:23:51.

responsible for regulating children's homes, don't let the

:23:51.:23:56.

police know where they are or the standard of service. We know they

:23:56.:24:00.

are required to meet a certain basic standard, but for a council

:24:00.:24:04.

looking to move a child away from a place where they have been a victim

:24:04.:24:09.

of abuse to break that cycle of abuse, we need to know that home

:24:09.:24:13.

they are going to will be providing them with the safe and well,

:24:13.:24:17.

environment. I spoke to a government adviser earlier who says

:24:17.:24:20.

they want to rattle the cage and make sure that when children go

:24:20.:24:29.

missing, alarm bells to ring. At first glance, being a Cabinet

:24:29.:24:33.

minister might look like a cushy number - lashings of power, civil

:24:34.:24:38.

servants to do your every bidding, and a nice car. But you also get

:24:38.:24:43.

intense pressure, ferocious criticism, and that is just from

:24:43.:24:47.

your own backbenchers, and the constant threat of the sack. Most

:24:47.:24:53.

of the top team have been under fire at one time or another, so is

:24:53.:24:57.

being a Cabinet minister all it is cracked up to be? We sensed David

:24:57.:25:03.

to find out. If you are MMP, it doesn't get much better than this.

:25:03.:25:07.

Walking into Downing Street for the first time as a fresh-faced newly-

:25:07.:25:12.

minted member of the Cabinet. But all too soon reality kicks in and

:25:12.:25:16.

the seat at the big table of British politics gets very hot.

:25:16.:25:21.

Take the current top team - virtually all of them have been in

:25:21.:25:28.

hot water. William Hague, hotel room controversy, Theresa May, Abu

:25:28.:25:37.

Qatada, Andrew Lansley, NHS reforms. Baroness Warsi, rent issues, and

:25:37.:25:42.

most recently Jeremy Hunt with Rupert Murdoch again. Who would

:25:43.:25:47.

want to be a Cabinet minister when frankly it is more likely to end in

:25:47.:25:51.

tears? We thought we would ask someone who knows better than most.

:25:51.:25:57.

Every minister goes into the thinking I will be the one who

:25:57.:26:02.

isn't the person who runs into either personal or political

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problems. I don't think you could step into it unless you hoped that

:26:06.:26:11.

would be the case, but for very many people you become the minister

:26:11.:26:16.

in trouble, the minister who you can see in your colleagues' eyes

:26:16.:26:20.

they are sympathetic but thank goodness it is you, not me. Some

:26:20.:26:25.

have already paid the ultimate political price. At the last two

:26:25.:26:31.

days have been the longest and toughest of my life. David Laws,

:26:31.:26:37.

Chief Secretary to the Treasury at one minute, out of the Treasury the

:26:37.:26:42.

next. Liam Fox, the former Defence Secretary, was busted down to

:26:42.:26:48.

backbencher over his links to a lobbyist. Chris Huhne in the fast

:26:48.:26:58.
:26:58.:27:03.

lane as Energy Secretary, forced to resign over problems with speeding

:27:03.:27:10.

offence fraud. Even though you are under immense pressure, the reason

:27:10.:27:13.

why you're doing this job is because you think you can make a

:27:13.:27:17.

difference. You think this is the thing that your political values

:27:17.:27:22.

have brought you to. It is the peak of your political career, the time

:27:22.:27:27.

of which you think actually there is something I can do to put into

:27:27.:27:31.

operation the things I care about. You never think you have achieved

:27:31.:27:35.

what you want to achieve when it is time to leave that. The next time

:27:35.:27:39.

you see a member of the Cabinet in bother, don't feel too sorry for

:27:39.:27:45.

them because the truth is most of them wouldn't miss it for the world.

:27:45.:27:52.

Let's find out if that is true with Lord Norman Fowler. Let's go back

:27:52.:27:57.

in time - how did the pressures of Cabinet life affect your family

:27:57.:28:04.

life? You have less time than you would otherwise have, but in the

:28:04.:28:07.

main Cabinet life was very good because you could put into effect

:28:07.:28:14.

the ideas that you had. I started doing transport, I had done it in

:28:14.:28:17.

the Shadow Cabinet fully three years. I put the plans I had into

:28:17.:28:23.

effect, that was brilliant. The last thing I did was to abolish the

:28:23.:28:27.

Dock Labour Scheme, which people had been flapping about four years.

:28:27.:28:32.

Jacqui Smith is right. Obviously there are things you feel you could

:28:32.:28:36.

have done, but on the other hand you can and do have the opportunity

:28:36.:28:41.

of doing so much. When you resigned, did you say it was to spend more

:28:41.:28:47.

time with your family as well, that it was an opportunity? Was that a

:28:47.:28:53.

euphemism, or was that what you really meant? No, it wasn't a

:28:53.:28:58.

euphemism, but I did say other things as well. I have done 11

:28:58.:29:03.

years in government... You had had enough? I wanted to move on, if I

:29:03.:29:10.

could put it that way. I had two a small children, both of whom were

:29:10.:29:16.

born when I was in the Cabinet, and I thought I would miss out on that,

:29:16.:29:21.

but I don't want to say I was a crusader on the family or anything

:29:21.:29:26.

like that. There does, time when you have done 11 years of Cabinet

:29:26.:29:31.

you feel that is enough. What about scrutiny? Do you think there is

:29:31.:29:35.

more scrutiny for this generation of politicians than when you were

:29:35.:29:41.

in the Cabinet? That is probably right. I think the worst thing

:29:41.:29:45.

about the Cabinet and the thing which took most time, and the thing

:29:46.:29:51.

which caused most aggravation was not the outside scrutiny. The thing

:29:51.:29:56.

that caused the most problems were the public spending rows each year

:29:56.:30:01.

when you were attacked from the Treasury, and you would say but you

:30:01.:30:06.

can't propose that, that was in our manifesto, we were against that.

:30:06.:30:13.

What about people hounded out of office? Is that worse now? We

:30:13.:30:22.

listed some politicians who had to resign. He it -- it might be worse.

:30:22.:30:28.

In Margaret Thatcher's time, almost each year you had regular

:30:28.:30:32.

reshuffles and cabinet ministers were sometimes simply left out

:30:32.:30:37.

there with all kinds of predictions being made about the fact they

:30:37.:30:42.

would be sacked. If you are too sensitive on this, it is a rough

:30:42.:30:51.

Matthew, is it more a case of personal issues that seem to be the

:30:51.:30:59.

end of members of some of the Cabinet rather than policy issues?

:30:59.:31:03.

It tends to be personal issues because of the Prime Minister sat

:31:03.:31:07.

somebody for personal reasons, it falls back on the Prime Minister

:31:07.:31:13.

because why have you supported them? Tomorrow apparently we are

:31:13.:31:17.

going to go to a reform package for the Civil Service and I bet, like

:31:17.:31:22.

all previous reform packages, it will not grasp the problem of the

:31:22.:31:27.

interface between politicians and civil servants. Imagine if they

:31:27.:31:30.

want and Corporation are ostensibly run by a committee of 30 people,

:31:30.:31:34.

each person has a job that requires them to work 16 hours a day, many

:31:34.:31:38.

of them do not trust the organisations that work for them,

:31:38.:31:42.

then you have junior ministers who have no role and just go around

:31:42.:31:52.
:31:52.:31:56.

causing trouble? That is a very I was part of the Thatcher

:31:56.:32:00.

government, I was there from the beginning almost to the end. We

:32:00.:32:04.

were written down as being the most radical governments since the war

:32:04.:32:08.

in domestic policy. I don't think we have those problems. Is that

:32:08.:32:14.

because you ignore the civil service? No, that is the point. We

:32:14.:32:19.

got the civil service to work with us, we said this is the policy and

:32:19.:32:26.

they put it into practice. It was a perfectly good partnership. This

:32:26.:32:30.

government has a lot of briefing at the moment saying they do not feel

:32:30.:32:36.

the civil services working for them. They also did not have to new --

:32:36.:32:41.

deal the 24 hour news. I think it was more possible in your time to

:32:41.:32:45.

say I will address that in a couple of weeks. Now you have to respond

:32:46.:32:49.

to things immediately. If you have not close an issue within hours to

:32:49.:32:55.

have Number Ten on the phone saying you have to get out there. Can you

:32:55.:32:58.

think of a cabinet member handed out who should not have been?

:32:58.:33:08.
:33:08.:33:11.

It is clear to me Peter Mandelson resigned for a trivial reason. It

:33:11.:33:15.

was to do with the image he created for himself which made him somebody

:33:15.:33:22.

people wanted to have a go at. think your point about the 24 hour

:33:22.:33:28.

news cycle is a commentary on Number Ten. I was on a phone-in the

:33:28.:33:33.

other day and a special adviser rang up and said we need to have a

:33:33.:33:40.

new story every four hours. That is crazy. I agree. A everyone needs to

:33:41.:33:44.

relax. We should go back to a former age about announcing

:33:44.:33:50.

policies and the rest. You said you managed to achieve a lot in the

:33:50.:33:55.

Cabinet. Unless you are in the Cabinet is it really worth being a

:33:55.:34:05.

junior minister? Only if you were genuinely interested in the area

:34:05.:34:08.

you're working in. When I worked for Tony Blair I proposed that

:34:08.:34:12.

junior ministers were asked to make a change happen. You get appointed

:34:12.:34:17.

for a couple of years to oversee a particular process. At the moment

:34:17.:34:20.

you are only junior minister because you want to be a cabinet

:34:20.:34:26.

minister. But if you are doing what I was doing, health and social

:34:26.:34:29.

security, it is crucial your ministers of state are strong

:34:29.:34:34.

people. I recruited Ken Clarke, Tony Newton and John Major. With

:34:34.:34:44.

that sort of support I had an easy life. I rested on them. Tips for

:34:44.:34:53.

anyone joining the Cabinet after a reshuffle? No. Funnily enough. One

:34:54.:34:58.

tip. I think you might bring a Malcolm Rifkind back into it. I

:34:58.:35:03.

don't know if he wants to but he is such an intelligent, good

:35:03.:35:07.

communicator, I think he is wasted on the backbenches. You heard it

:35:07.:35:17.
:35:17.:35:18.

here first! Thank you both. Coalition shinanigans have been

:35:18.:35:22.

keeping the Westminster hacks busy of late. And on College Green we

:35:22.:35:24.

have our own little coalition. Anushka Asthana from the Times and

:35:24.:35:30.

James Kirkup from the Telegraph. Can we start with the Leveson

:35:30.:35:34.

Inquiry, do you think the decision by the Liberal-Democrats took

:35:34.:35:40.

abstain was a key moment? It is an ongoing process where both party

:35:40.:35:44.

leaderships are trying hard to engage in party management. They

:35:44.:35:48.

are looking for ways of sending signals to the backbenches and

:35:48.:35:53.

party membership we are still a distinct party, pushing our own

:35:53.:35:59.

agenda. Nick Clegg is trying to push that independence on Murdoch

:35:59.:36:04.

based issues and that the same time we are seeing Conservative

:36:04.:36:08.

ministers pushing a Conservative agenda on welfare, Trident, issues

:36:08.:36:18.

like that. Are Tory MPs still angry about it or was it a flash-in-the-

:36:18.:36:22.

pan? Of course they are angry but it is just the latest reason to be

:36:22.:36:30.

angry. Most MPs have an ongoing frustration at the fact they are in

:36:31.:36:35.

coalition. That anger express itself in various ways depending on

:36:35.:36:41.

what is in the headlines. At the moment it is Leveson. When Lords

:36:41.:36:45.

reform comes back it will be Lords reform. There is always something.

:36:45.:36:51.

It traces back to the original sin, David Cameron's failure to win the

:36:51.:36:56.

Tory majority in 2010. I Liberal- Democrat MPs worried about revenge?

:36:56.:37:03.

We have heard a number of times that they could use Lords reform as

:37:03.:37:08.

the stick to be the Lib Dems with? I think is sues the Tories to see

:37:08.:37:11.

this as treachery because it gives them an excuse to go on things like

:37:11.:37:14.

Lords reform. Lib Dems are worried about that because it is important

:37:14.:37:24.
:37:24.:37:28.

to them to get the Lords reform February. -- through. None the Tory

:37:28.:37:31.

said we never did this to Vince Cable but the response was actually

:37:31.:37:36.

yes, they did. The Lib Dems view is it was fair for them to abstain. I

:37:36.:37:42.

think the Tories would uses as a chance to punish them. David

:37:42.:37:47.

Cameron is clearly attempting to push the eurozone countries towards

:37:47.:37:51.

closer integration with Britain outside that. What other Liberal-

:37:51.:37:58.

Democrats thinking about that? Lib Dems are have spoken to mainly

:37:58.:38:04.

support the idea of closer fiscal pact but they want Britain to be

:38:04.:38:11.

involved in the conversation and that is where the parties split.

:38:11.:38:15.

Whilst Cameron might be pushing for that a lot of his backbenchers

:38:15.:38:18.

think one needs to happen now is that Greece needs to default and

:38:18.:38:22.

other countries need to follow suit, which is what they will be pushing

:38:22.:38:26.

for. Do you think the eurozone crisis has masked even bigger

:38:26.:38:36.
:38:36.:38:38.

cracks in the coalition? Without the crisis you wonder how we will

:38:38.:38:43.

be doing on the fundamental question of addressing the deficit.

:38:43.:38:49.

-- would be doing. I think the severity of the events does hide

:38:49.:38:57.

various tensions. There are some clear divisions of Tory opinion on

:38:57.:39:01.

this. George Osborne and David Cameron are pushing for the

:39:01.:39:09.

eurozone to integrate and push towards a fiscal union. There are

:39:09.:39:13.

Conservatives who regard the idea of fiscal union as being Anathema.

:39:13.:39:23.
:39:23.:39:23.

It flies in the face of 2000 years of Western civilisation. The idea

:39:23.:39:30.

there is a unified position on be fiscal crisis is not really the

:39:30.:39:34.

case but because they are secondary to the end of the euro zone

:39:34.:39:37.

economic crisis it might be getting less attention than it would be

:39:38.:39:41.

otherwise. On a referendum issue, which seems to have reared up again

:39:41.:39:46.

because Labour has also been calling for it, maybe not now, is

:39:46.:39:52.

pressure mounting for that to come sooner rather than later? I think

:39:52.:39:58.

there are voices in all parties who want to see a promise for a

:39:58.:40:04.

referendum. What with the question be and is now the right time for a

:40:04.:40:11.

question? And in out referendum would be dangerous because

:40:11.:40:15.

Eurosceptics might get the answer they do not want and where does

:40:15.:40:18.

Britain go from there? I think Cameron will want to resist any

:40:18.:40:23.

temptation to do that on the table right now. I would expect us to be

:40:23.:40:29.

seen something like an offer for a referendum in Tory manifesto, maybe

:40:29.:40:35.

then Labour manifesto as well. joined now for the rest of the show

:40:36.:40:38.

by three peers of the realm. Labour's leader in the Lords, Jan

:40:39.:40:41.

Royall, Conservative Peer, Patience Wheatcroft and for the Liberal

:40:41.:40:46.

Democrats Tim Clement Jones. Last week Liberal Democrat MPs

:40:46.:40:48.

infuriated some of their Conservative partners by refusing

:40:48.:40:55.

to back Jeremy Hunt in a House of Commons vote. The Lib Dems

:40:55.:40:57.

abstained on a Labour motion calling for the embattled Culture

:40:57.:41:03.

Secretary to be investigated over breaches of the ministerial code.

:41:03.:41:06.

The good ship Coalition has sailed into choppy waters after the Lib

:41:06.:41:08.

Dems abstained last week. Conservative ministers are fighting

:41:08.:41:10.

back, sailing under Tory colours, apparently without much thought for

:41:10.:41:13.

what their Lib Dem partners think. The Home Secretary Theresa May has

:41:13.:41:19.

been getting tough on immigration and human rights laws. Oliver

:41:19.:41:21.

Letwin has suggested that subsidies for onshore wind-power will be

:41:21.:41:31.
:41:31.:41:32.

stopped despite strong Lib Dem support for green energy. And

:41:32.:41:35.

Defence Secretary Philip Hammond has announced a �1 billion contract

:41:35.:41:38.

for the next generation of nuclear powered submarines. They would be

:41:38.:41:40.

needed if the Government decided to go ahead with a like-for-like

:41:40.:41:43.

replacement for Trident, something the Lib Dems oppose. With a further

:41:43.:41:46.

row looming over House of Lords reform David Cameron and Nick Clegg

:41:46.:41:49.

could be looking for the coalition life jackets. Have we got to that

:41:49.:41:53.

stage yet? Not yet. The government has sensible policies it wants to

:41:53.:41:59.

push through. They will not all be what the Lib Dems would like to see

:41:59.:42:02.

but coalition is about give-and- take. How would you characterise

:42:02.:42:07.

the state of the coalition at the moment? I think it is never easy

:42:07.:42:11.

and certainly not proving to be easy but it is still there and I

:42:11.:42:17.

think it will survive. The you understand why the Lib Dems were

:42:17.:42:24.

not right to support Jeremy Hunt on the Labour motion? Not really.

:42:24.:42:33.

do you think they decided to make that decision? I don't understand

:42:33.:42:37.

why. I think it was a strange thing to do and played into labour's

:42:37.:42:41.

hands. I thought the most appalling thing about the episode was the

:42:41.:42:45.

speaker allowing Jeremy Hunt to be termed a liar in a debate in the

:42:45.:42:49.

House of Commons. That really was atrocious. There was controversy

:42:49.:42:54.

over that which we debated at the time. Justify that decision for the

:42:54.:42:57.

Lib Dems to abstain. It was not a matter of collective Cabinet

:42:57.:43:02.

responsibility, that was made clear. This was a decision not to refer by

:43:02.:43:07.

the Prime Minister to Alex Allan which Nick Clegg played no part in.

:43:07.:43:11.

So it was perfectly proper for us to take a different view as a party,

:43:11.:43:17.

which we did. But what we did not want to do was to vote with the

:43:17.:43:20.

Labour Party in the division because we are members of the

:43:20.:43:27.

coalition and at least we do it to our colleagues not to see the

:43:27.:43:31.

ousting of a minister. But we wanted to make it clear we felt the

:43:31.:43:36.

Prime Minister should have referred to a special adviser. But you

:43:36.:43:40.

agreed on principle with what the Labour motion stated, that you did

:43:40.:43:43.

not agree David Cameron should have made the decision not to refer it

:43:43.:43:47.

to Sir Alex Allan so by rights he should have supported it? That is

:43:47.:43:52.

the nature of coalition, there are some cases were you do not go the

:43:52.:44:01.

whole hog. -- wear. Abstention is a lily-livered way out. I think it is

:44:01.:44:06.

a posturing by the Lib Dems that we see a lot in the House of Lords. If

:44:06.:44:12.

the Lib Dems really believed they should have voted, they should have

:44:12.:44:18.

made a statement against Jeremy party. I absolutely do not agree.

:44:18.:44:23.

In coalition there are all kinds of compromises you need to make, even

:44:23.:44:29.

within political parties. To jump up and down, cry, lack of principle,

:44:29.:44:37.

traitor, whatever on every occasion that the parties do something

:44:37.:44:42.

different is just impractical and does not represent reality. Do you

:44:42.:44:46.

think relations are better in the House of Lords than they seem to be

:44:46.:44:52.

in the Commons? I think that is right. There are strains sometimes.

:44:52.:44:56.

Over the health will there were strains, over things are welfare

:44:56.:44:59.

reform there were strings. But I do we have ways of dealing with them

:45:00.:45:05.

because the personal relationships across the parties are good I would

:45:05.:45:08.

say. We're probably capable of separating out the politics from

:45:09.:45:18.

the personalities rather better Do you think the announcement on

:45:18.:45:23.

submarines does prejudge the position on nuclear weapons? No, I

:45:23.:45:27.

think it has been made clear that the investment made in the building

:45:28.:45:32.

in Derby will be used for whatever happens. The money will not be

:45:33.:45:36.

wasted, but we do have to start planning now walk in case the

:45:36.:45:43.

decision is made to go ahead with Trident. Can you see why it would

:45:43.:45:52.

be viewed as a decision made by staff? In a way, this decision has

:45:52.:45:58.

been made. No, because the money would not be wasted. I have no

:45:58.:46:03.

doubt there will be people who interpret it that way but I see it

:46:03.:46:08.

as a sensible decision on planning. Are you worried about this decision

:46:08.:46:14.

being made before 2016 as was agreed? Now, the very fact that

:46:14.:46:19.

Nick Harvey is the minister who has been explaining the decision makes

:46:19.:46:25.

it very clear. He has made it clear what is a programme over 11 years

:46:25.:46:30.

of expenditure, that half the expenditure will be going to Derby

:46:30.:46:35.

facilities. I don't think it will cause a great strain. Do you think

:46:35.:46:40.

the Tories are trying to flex their muscles on immigration - too hard

:46:40.:46:45.

line for the Liberal Democrats? amount of debate and discussion

:46:45.:46:49.

between government departments is enormous. If you look at the

:46:49.:46:56.

interest of the business department, the Treasury, DCMS as opposed to

:46:56.:47:00.

the Home Office, there is a debate going on about the way in

:47:00.:47:03.

particular that students are treated. The debate has been very

:47:03.:47:07.

clear, that it makes Britain look as if it is closed for business if

:47:07.:47:13.

you come down to hard on immigrants who would like to come to the

:47:13.:47:16.

country and contribute something. have many Conservative colleagues

:47:16.:47:21.

who are just as concerned as I am about this punitive approach, and

:47:21.:47:25.

this approach to students treating them as permanent migrants. It's as

:47:25.:47:30.

having a dreadful effect on our universities, which are now finding

:47:30.:47:37.

it difficult to attract students from overseas. How else do you

:47:37.:47:41.

bring the numbers down? There is a commitment from all parties to

:47:41.:47:46.

bring the numbers down. Why are they gunning for students, as it

:47:46.:47:51.

were? Students are the future of our relationships with these

:47:51.:47:56.

countries as well so you have to be delicate when dealing with the

:47:56.:48:01.

policy. I think some of what Theresa May wants to do makes good

:48:01.:48:06.

sense, particularly looking at the family issue and that human rights

:48:06.:48:11.

act. On the student issue there is a degree of uniformity in the House

:48:11.:48:16.

of Lords because treating a student as a permanent migrant is obviously

:48:16.:48:22.

not a sensible thing to do, it is backfiring, and there is increasing

:48:22.:48:29.

debate in the House of Lords. Lords reform, will it happen? He

:48:29.:48:34.

depends on what they do in the House of Commons, I would suggest.

:48:34.:48:39.

I think the sensible thing would be for the Steel Bill to come in first.

:48:39.:48:44.

More delay then? They would amount to something happening, whereas the

:48:44.:48:51.

risk is that there will be more delay if we don't get this.

:48:51.:48:56.

depends what happens in the Commons. In the House of Lords, we are way

:48:56.:49:01.

down the track at the moment. There may be a referendum inserted, and

:49:01.:49:07.

so on and so forth, so who knows? It is premature to write off the

:49:07.:49:11.

House of Lords reform. Let's not do that.

:49:11.:49:17.

We are all doomed, that is according to Prince Charles. He has

:49:17.:49:20.

issued end ominous warning ahead of the global conference on

:49:20.:49:30.

sustainability. On a video address on the Royal Channel, he was one in

:49:30.:49:35.

about action on climate change. Like a sleepwalker, we seem unable

:49:35.:49:39.

to wake up to the fact that so many of the catastrophic consequences of

:49:39.:49:45.

carrying on as business-as-usual are bearing down on us faster than

:49:45.:49:50.

we think, already dragging millions more people into poverty and

:49:50.:49:54.

dangerously weakening global food, water, and energy security for the

:49:54.:50:01.

future. Do you agree with him? think we are not doing in this

:50:01.:50:07.

country towards climate change and decisions by this Conservative-led

:50:07.:50:12.

coalition about junking grants for wind power and solar power

:50:12.:50:16.

demonstrates this is not the most green government ever. She should

:50:16.:50:21.

he be saying this sort of thing? he needs a role model, and she has

:50:21.:50:29.

the -- he has the perfect one in his mother, and she would not be

:50:29.:50:39.
:50:39.:50:39.

saying this, but he has kept quiet recently so the board -- occasional

:50:39.:50:48.

announcement should be allowed. his track record in this area, and

:50:48.:50:53.

in areas of social responsibility, he has been fantastic. The heir to

:50:53.:50:56.

the throne is entitled to be saying these things and I might dispute

:50:56.:51:00.

that if I didn't agree with everything he said in this area but

:51:00.:51:04.

he has been remarkably sound on the environment throughout the whole of

:51:04.:51:11.

his adult court basically. Do you agree with that? Does anyone listen

:51:11.:51:16.

to him? I hope some people listen to him because, as my colleagues

:51:16.:51:21.

have said, he has done a fantastic job, especially with the Prince's

:51:21.:51:30.

be listened to, but the decision makers must come to their

:51:30.:51:35.

conclusions on the basis of evidence. If he becomes a king,

:51:35.:51:40.

would he have to follow his mother's example and be quiet?

:51:40.:51:45.

Things are evolving all the time. I think he would find it difficult to

:51:45.:51:51.

be as quiet as his mother has been, but perhaps there is a compromise.

:51:51.:51:55.

But should he? The Queen is the model we now have, and perhaps he

:51:55.:52:00.

will sadly have to stop writing those letters, and he will have to

:52:00.:52:04.

not make those sorts of public announcements because you can't be

:52:04.:52:08.

entering into the political arena as the sovereign. It is very

:52:08.:52:15.

different thing. But then we would expect Prince William to take his

:52:15.:52:19.

mantle and takeover the charities that Prince Charles foundered.

:52:19.:52:24.

Is it not diplomatic to continually mispronounce foreign leaders'

:52:24.:52:28.

names? It appears etiquette is slipping at the Foreign Office,

:52:28.:52:38.
:52:38.:52:39.

where ministers don't have the experience they used to. These are

:52:39.:52:42.

challenging demands unfair obviously creating great strains

:52:42.:52:47.

and tensions in the countries affected, but my noble friend has

:52:47.:52:54.

asked me to comment on not only Francois Hollande's which put the

:52:55.:53:01.

German wish to stick rigidly to certain austere budget disciplines.

:53:01.:53:10.

Somewhere between these two, and in the talks, there will emerge a

:53:10.:53:15.

sensible balance. We hope there will and we will contribute to

:53:15.:53:21.

anything that would achieve that. Would the noble lord the Minister

:53:21.:53:26.

accept a mild rebuke from me on this matter of the mispronunciation

:53:26.:53:34.

of the names? I declare any interest. It seems a failing of

:53:34.:53:38.

successive governments to get the names of French President's

:53:38.:53:43.

properly pronounced. The previous President was inevitably and almost

:53:43.:53:51.

always referred to as Mr Sarkozy as that it was rhyming with tea cosy,

:53:51.:53:57.

and President Francois Hollande should be pronounced like this. I

:53:57.:54:07.

totally accept these extremely wise rebukes from the noble Lord about

:54:07.:54:12.

my French pronunciation. I will practise a lot more. The Radio 4

:54:12.:54:19.

news reader is with us. Maybe you need to train some of those Peers

:54:19.:54:23.

in terms of their pronunciation? will be passing my card around,

:54:23.:54:29.

leaving them on the benches. It is quite hard to get names right, what

:54:29.:54:35.

do you think? It is important. Whether they are presidents,

:54:35.:54:40.

murderers, victims, whoever they are get their name right. He would

:54:40.:54:47.

want your name right, wouldn't you? Yes, I have been used to that over

:54:47.:54:52.

the years. How difficult do you think the French President names

:54:52.:54:59.

are? Not that difficult. It is Francois

:54:59.:55:09.
:55:09.:55:25.

Hollande, with "on" in the surname. With Nicolas Sarkozy, did they say

:55:25.:55:32.

the emphasis on the last syllable? As a newsreader, we are guided by

:55:32.:55:36.

the pronunciation Unit at the BBC and we can get into some real

:55:36.:55:40.

arguments with correspondents who have their way of saying it, but

:55:40.:55:50.
:55:50.:55:52.

his name is Sarkozy. Not tea cosy. We have a little quiz for you, I'm

:55:52.:56:01.

sure you'll be delighted. They are going to come up in just a moment.

:56:01.:56:09.

How do you pronounce these? You get the easy one, the President of Iran.

:56:09.:56:16.

Mahmud Ahmadinejad. People think with Arabic names you need phlegm

:56:16.:56:26.
:56:26.:56:26.

to deliver them, but this one you are aiming for a sighing sound.

:56:26.:56:30.

This one is quite difficult. We This one is quite difficult. We

:56:30.:56:35.

will give you the chance, it is the President of the Ivory Coast. How

:56:35.:56:42.

do you pronounce that? I think that is a pretty good

:56:42.:56:51.

attempts. It is spelt incorrectly! Let's gloss over that. It is mostly

:56:51.:57:00.

a question of emphasis on that one. The life raft is at the end of it.

:57:00.:57:10.
:57:10.:57:11.

We will have to have you on regularly when these leaders change.

:57:11.:57:20.

yours is the prime minister of Turkey. I'll always just say the

:57:20.:57:25.

Prime Minister of Turkey, if I have to do. You have fallen, I'm afraid,

:57:25.:57:35.
:57:35.:57:43.

but what else would you say when looking at that. It is Re-jip. That

:57:43.:57:50.

is the sort of thing we laugh at. Everybody messes that one up the

:57:50.:57:56.

first time. I leave this one open to any of you, it is the prime

:57:56.:58:05.

minister of Sri Lanka. Have always felt that one right? Probably!

:58:05.:58:15.
:58:15.:58:24.

wants to have a go. I am saying it as it looks. Whatever the last one

:58:24.:58:28.

was. I did have to write this one down because it is very difficult.

:58:28.:58:38.

Again, it is the emphasis. Marvellous. Thank you took all of

:58:38.:58:45.

Jo Coburn with the latest political news, interviews and debate. She is joined by former adviser to Tony Blair, Matthew Taylor, who is now the chief executive of the Royal Society of Arts. Larry Elliott from the Guardian and Conservative MP Sajid Javid, who is parliamentary aide to George Osborne, discuss the economy. Three members of the Lords: Patience Wheatcroft for the Conservatives, Jan Royall for Labour and Tim Clement-Jones for the Liberal Democrats also drop by.


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