22/06/2012 Daily Politics


22/06/2012

Andrew Neil with the latest political news, interviews and debate. With Mary Ann Sieghart, chair of the Social Market Foundation and Daily Mail columnist Peter Hitchens.


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Good afternoon. Welcome to the Daily Politics. The last Labour

:00:45.:00:49.

Government got it wrong on immigration says Ed Miliband. But

:00:49.:00:54.

in practical terms, what would he do about it if he came to power?

:00:54.:00:58.

Are the row about Jimmy Carr's tax affairs is still deafening everyone

:00:58.:01:03.

at Westminster. Can a satirist survive a dose of his own medicine?

:01:03.:01:08.

Nick Clegg is still in Rio. There is an Earth Summit going on but

:01:08.:01:12.

have the claims of the environment effectively been mugged by grim

:01:12.:01:18.

economic reality? And have social media sites given

:01:18.:01:26.

political voice to these young mothers in the Midlands?

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All that in the next hour. With us for the duration, newspaper

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columnist and chairman of the Social Market Foundation think-tank,

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who was on this week with the last night, Mary Ann Sieghart. And the

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titan of the Mail on Sunday, that's what it says here, and he gave me a

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tenner if I said I would say it, Peter Hitchens. First, the banks

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are on the news. Late last night, one of the international rating

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agencies, Moody's, downgraded a whole range of banks including

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British banks such as Barclays, HSBC and the Royal Bank of Scotland.

:02:04.:02:10.

This matters because the ratings they get can influence how much it

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costs them to borrow a on the wholesale markets, when they borrow

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from each other. If they have to pay more, they will pass extra

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costs on to their customers. These customers are you and me. I guess

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this was inevitable. It was inevitable. We have been expecting

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it for months. As banks and the Eurozone get more and more dodgy,

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British banks' exposure to them becomes more worrying. We are not

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very exposed to Greek banks but we are to Spanish and Italian ones. It

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does make a difference. It makes a difference to you and me. It sounds

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abstract but if their pay more for their money, but when they lend it

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to last, they will charge just more. And we have lent to French and

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German banks to are exposed. There is a domino effect for a start

:03:03.:03:13.
:03:13.:03:17.

people wonder why -- domino effect. People wonder why. The rate that

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the banks pay are rising and rising. I do not understand the point of

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the rating agencies. They failed to predict or warn against the crash

:03:26.:03:29.

itself. And now they seem to be scrabbling around trying to make

:03:29.:03:33.

out that they know what is going on and doing harm in the process. Who

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will benefit? I wish they were shut up. They are not inaccurate to

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downgrade. I think they are right to downgrade. They failed before

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the credit crunch but we have nothing to put in their place.

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Investors need some form of writing the bonds that they want to buy. If

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you will be allowed to invest in Triple A bonds, where the borrower

:03:56.:04:02.

is guaranteed to pay you back, then you need to know what the credit

:04:02.:04:08.

worthiness is of the borrower. they are a reliable, objective

:04:08.:04:11.

source of information or are they trying to overcompensate for

:04:11.:04:15.

previous failings? They do not actually make the market, they tend

:04:15.:04:20.

to follow the market. This ratings agency is now catching up with what

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most people have already known. The wider picture, Peter, which seems

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incapable of resolution for a less miracles happen at the EU summit

:04:30.:04:37.

next week, is that it just seems that the inability to sort the

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Eurozone is now a constant track on the world economy including the

:04:43.:04:48.

British economy. -- drag. wonder if this is not comparable to

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the months before Britain pulled out of the ERM. Everyone said that

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if we left, it would be a disaster and in fact it was not. The end of

:04:57.:05:01.

the Eurozone and the end of the single currency cannot come soon

:05:01.:05:05.

enough for the sake of the country. Since the whole thing seemed from

:05:05.:05:08.

the start, and I have climbed from the beginning to have been against

:05:08.:05:13.

it, on sound economic and political grounds, from the start it was

:05:13.:05:18.

wrong, so why might it be possible that getting rid of it will

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actually be the stimulant that the European economies need? If we're

:05:23.:05:27.

going to get into competitive opposition, I was against it from

:05:27.:05:33.

the start at as well. A felt so strongly about the economics of it.

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I thought it was bound to go wrong and it has. At the time, people

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said that if you include what countries are involved, it is not

:05:43.:05:50.

what is described as a optimal area. It turns out that the country's

:05:50.:05:59.

beginning with the name -- letter A them were more viable. The if it

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was confined to Germany, Scandinavia, maybe France, it could

:06:03.:06:07.

retrench to that. Possibly, but you need to have pretty strong

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political and fiscal union even to make that work. You have to

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persuade German voters that they should subsidise the poorer parts

:06:15.:06:21.

of France, say, forever. And they do not have the same communality

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that we in the south-east have with people in the north-east.

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problem is that Germany is benefiting from the Euro because it

:06:27.:06:32.

is a substantial devaluation of the Deutschmark. That is why they cling

:06:32.:06:40.

on to it. Under any circumstances, they would get out of it. It is

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time for our daily quiz. Britain is in trouble with Brussels again. Our

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question for today, why is the European Commission taking Britain

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to court this time? Is its failure to manufacture Cornish pasties in

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to manufacture Cornish pasties in Cornwall, too much bacteria in

:06:55.:07:00.

British cheese, the price of strawberries at Wimbledon or

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strawberries at Wimbledon or failure to pay enough tax on

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imports of garlic? Difficult questions. Tougher than Guess The

:07:09.:07:15.

Year. At the end of the show, we will have a wild stab at the answer.

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Do you have any idea? I do. That what -- that is what happens when

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you have bright people on the programme. Politicians do not often

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met -- admit they got it wrong. When they do, it is big news. Ed

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Miliband today says that Labour got it wrong when in government on the

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issue of immigration. He said that voters to raise concerns about

:07:37.:07:42.

issues of immigration are not begets after all. In 2010, Gordon

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Brown famously described Gillian Duffy, a pensioner from Rochdale,

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as a bigot after she raised the issue of immigration with him. What

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is the background to this? Under Labour, immigration sword. Official

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Labour, immigration sword. Official figures showed that net migration

:07:57.:08:02.

from 1997 and 2010 was 2.5 million. That is the official figure.

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Unofficially, it could be bigger. The coalition has committed to

:08:07.:08:10.

bringing immigration down to tens of thousands. But latest figures

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show that in the first year of the coalition, net migration was still

:08:16.:08:22.

250,000. The vast number of those came to the UK to study. Ed

:08:22.:08:27.

Miliband's ideas include keeping a place conditional controls on

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migration for a new EU countries such as Croatia. Labour did not do

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that when in power. A crackdown on recruitment agencies that advertise

:08:35.:08:39.

for immigrant workers. You would think that would be illegal. And an

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early warning system if some industries are employing

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disproportionately large numbers of foreign workers. That would be

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interesting to monitor. And more action such as heavier fines on

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employers to undercut the minimum employers to undercut the minimum

:08:52.:08:57.

wage. Here is what he had to say this morning. Why did we not listen

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more? I think by the end of our time in office, we were too dazzled

:09:03.:09:11.

and sanguine about globalisation, too sanguine about the impact of

:09:11.:09:14.

globalisation and migration or economic growth. We lost sight of

:09:14.:09:19.

who was benefiting from that growth. Whose living standards were being

:09:19.:09:28.

squeezed. And to those who lost out, we were too quick to say "Like it

:09:28.:09:33.

or lump it." The truth is, the public were ahead of us in seeing

:09:33.:09:38.

some of the problems of migration. They were seeing them in their own

:09:38.:09:45.

communities. The shadow Immigration Minister, Chris Bryant, is with us.

:09:45.:09:51.

When did you realise that Labour got it wrong? I remember when that

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Gillian Duffy thing happened in the general lection. I thought, you

:09:54.:10:00.

know what, she looks remarkably like a lot of my constituents, who

:10:00.:10:06.

have had concerns about immigration for a long time. In particular,

:10:06.:10:11.

they came to me and said "My son has just got a job in Gloucester

:10:11.:10:14.

and it is great but after five weeks, suddenly the employers

:10:14.:10:18.

decided to get rid of the British workers and bring in a Contractor

:10:18.:10:24.

from Poland and undercut their wages." That is when it came to hit

:10:24.:10:29.

home. That is why ever since I have had this job, I have been saying

:10:29.:10:33.

that I think it is really important that we got two things wrong in

:10:34.:10:38.

government. First of all, we went it alone. We and Ireland were the

:10:38.:10:41.

only countries in Europe who decided that anyone could come and

:10:41.:10:45.

work here from the first day of joining the European Union. That

:10:45.:10:53.

was a mistake. A you were warned at the time. And we got it wrong. Ed

:10:53.:10:57.

Miliband said in his speech that we were in a sense that dazzled by the

:10:57.:11:04.

global economy. We wanted to be able to do well in it. -- bedazzled.

:11:04.:11:06.

If you wanted to have a conservatory built on your house,

:11:06.:11:09.

it was good because it meant that it was cheaper but it was not so

:11:09.:11:13.

good if you were the kind of person that built in eight -- work in a

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company that build conservatories. What was the second thing? We left

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it too late before we introduced a point based system, which would

:11:22.:11:24.

have meant that people coming into this country were only the people

:11:24.:11:31.

who could actively contribute to society. That meant in particular

:11:31.:11:35.

for a lot of British people, including people who came to the

:11:35.:11:39.

country 20 years ago or whose parents came 30 years ago, it meant

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that if they were close to the national minimum-wage, their wages

:11:43.:11:50.

were undercut. When Michael Howard propose the point based system in

:11:50.:11:56.

the 2005 election, Labour excoriated them. We got it wrong.

:11:56.:12:01.

It is quite a big mistake. It is. That is why Ed Miliband, and I'm

:12:01.:12:04.

sure this will not be the last speech he will make about

:12:04.:12:09.

immigration. Thus the first time I have heard of a continued dialogue.

:12:09.:12:13.

It is a mistake to see immigration as standing on its own. For many,

:12:13.:12:17.

it is also about the welfare state and housing and public services and

:12:17.:12:21.

the economy. If you got it wrong on those two things, does that mean

:12:21.:12:24.

that if you add up these mistakes, that there are too many foreigners

:12:25.:12:29.

in Britain? It stands to logic the defiance saying that we should have

:12:29.:12:33.

introduced proper Kurds when the new countries join the European

:12:33.:12:37.

Union and that we should have introduced a point based system,

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that I am of course saying that too many people came in when we were in

:12:43.:12:47.

power. What you make of this mea culpa? I think it is probably

:12:47.:12:54.

sensible. -- what do you make. There are a properly looked at the

:12:54.:12:57.

opinion polls and seen that the two reasons why Labour voters deserted

:12:57.:13:02.

the party at the last election were immigration and welfare. The two

:13:02.:13:05.

are often combined and belabour probably have to do this to get

:13:05.:13:10.

themselves re-elected. A row of it a pamphlet about this after the

:13:10.:13:13.

general election because I felt very strongly that particularly in

:13:13.:13:18.

areas like mine, it is not about opinion polls. You do not need

:13:18.:13:21.

opinion polls to tell you this, you just have to knock on doors. It was

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one of the issues that came back time and time again. That is not to

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say that places like La Rhondda, which grew on the back of

:13:32.:13:36.

immigration from Italy and Ireland, do not recognise that welcoming

:13:36.:13:40.

foreigners is a strong British principle. It has happened very

:13:40.:13:45.

fast and change the nature. And the numbers were huge. -- changed the

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nature. You will hear the sound of the barn door closing as the horse

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has bolted. I find most objectionable about this is that,

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having been showered with buckets of slime and hose down with abuse

:14:00.:14:03.

from people from the left for saying exactly this for 15 years, I

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now have to sit and listen to these people try to get political credit

:14:11.:14:16.

for agreeing with me. The Labour Party is a party full trendies who

:14:16.:14:20.

love to have cheap waiters and cheap servants and all the things

:14:20.:14:26.

they benefit from, but it also relies on the votes of people who

:14:26.:14:29.

actually do not benefit from immigration. They have discovered

:14:29.:14:32.

that if they are going to get back into office, they will have to

:14:32.:14:36.

grovel to them. The damage has already done. You have not admitted

:14:36.:14:43.

the other thing. Andrew Neather admitted this in the Evening

:14:43.:14:47.

Standard some years ago, that this was a deliberate policy to

:14:47.:14:52.

transform the country. He meant it to be so. You have done it now.

:14:52.:14:56.

There is no point saying that we're sorry we did that. You're not sorry

:14:56.:15:02.

at all. You are sorry that it has cost to popularity. Over to you!

:15:02.:15:07.

Bucket of slime is one of Peter's absolute favourite phrases. He used

:15:07.:15:14.

it six times on Question Time the other day ago. -- other week ago.

:15:14.:15:18.

It is a bit of an irony when someone who writes for the Daily

:15:18.:15:21.

Mail start complaining about buckets of Slyne being poured over

:15:21.:15:25.

people. -- buckets of slime. There is no point arguing. It is true

:15:25.:15:29.

that many migrants to this country have dramatically assisted our

:15:29.:15:33.

economy. They have become major employers, they have been

:15:33.:15:38.

entrepreneurs, they have won Nobel prizes. So what is your problem?

:15:38.:15:42.

should have been making sure that the people who could add value to

:15:42.:15:46.

the country came in and not everybody else. If you look at the

:15:46.:15:49.

health service, there are many migrants working there. You want to

:15:49.:15:53.

have your cake and eat it. Why do a. You want to say that immigrants are

:15:53.:15:57.

wonderful. You are in favour of beating cake and in favour of cake.

:15:57.:16:01.

What is the point of cake without eating it? You look at it and think,

:16:01.:16:05.

if I don't eat it, I will be healthier. You think immigrants are

:16:05.:16:09.

wonderful but we have too many? That is a logical. I think you

:16:09.:16:13.

ought to be drawing a distinction. -- illogical. I do not think it's a

:16:13.:16:16.

great idea to have mass migration of people with no skills into this

:16:16.:16:21.

country. I think it is a good thing to have British universities having

:16:21.:16:26.

lots of foreign students coming to this country, studying, going back

:16:26.:16:29.

to their own country and then having a strong desire to do trade

:16:29.:16:37.

You accepted when Andrew asked to whether there were too many people

:16:37.:16:41.

in the country, you accepted and that their world. I am not saying

:16:41.:16:44.

there are too many people in the country. You're not saying that?

:16:44.:16:49.

Too many foreign people? I was asked a specific question which was,

:16:49.:16:54.

during the people we talked about, did we get it wrong? What I am

:16:54.:16:58.

saying is, look, we have already said, we should have had proper

:16:58.:17:03.

restraints on the number of people coming in... You clearly accepted

:17:03.:17:08.

the point. I think you are backing away from it. Because you know what

:17:08.:17:11.

is coming next, if there is too many foreign people in the country,

:17:11.:17:15.

what are you going to do about it? I am not saying there are too many

:17:15.:17:23.

foreign people in this country. are not? You did earlier. I said

:17:23.:17:26.

too many migrants came initial period of time into this country

:17:26.:17:30.

and we should have done a better job. And they are still here,

:17:30.:17:35.

obviously. They are not all here. According to the ONS, the

:17:35.:17:39.

population of Britain has risen by 3 million because of labour

:17:39.:17:44.

migration policy, that is a lot of people. And Andrew... It may be

:17:44.:17:48.

good or bad but it is a lot. A lot of the migrants that come to this

:17:48.:17:55.

country every year our students who come to do three-year courses. I

:17:55.:18:01.

think it is good for the British economy. Those people all go back.

:18:01.:18:06.

A well, they don't all go back. vast majority. It is a way into

:18:06.:18:15.

this country as well. No. There are no rights guaranteed. Some people

:18:15.:18:19.

came to train as doctors and then... I wonder what you are going to do

:18:20.:18:24.

about it. In some ways it is refreshing you are saying you got

:18:24.:18:30.

it wrong but I can't see anything you're proposing will make a

:18:30.:18:34.

difference other than to the margin. You are still proposing a cap on

:18:34.:18:44.
:18:44.:18:48.

immigration? There isn't a cap now. You oppose any controls on student

:18:48.:18:58.
:18:58.:18:59.

We think the government was absolutely right to say we would

:18:59.:19:02.

tackle the issue of fake colleges and that is another thing we should

:19:02.:19:06.

have done when we were in office. Do you think the government is

:19:06.:19:10.

right... It has shown no success in doing this so far but it is early

:19:10.:19:14.

days. Do you think the Government is right to be aiming to get net

:19:14.:19:18.

migration down to the tens of thousands. I don't think it stands

:19:18.:19:22.

a chance of doing it. My concern about the particular target of a

:19:22.:19:24.

net migration, which is the difference between those coming in

:19:24.:19:30.

and going out, but the best way of dealing with it is to try to

:19:30.:19:34.

persuade people to leave the country. There is a danger that you

:19:34.:19:37.

would do things that could be very damaging for the economy. The bit I

:19:37.:19:42.

think has been always left out of this argument, by people like Peter

:19:42.:19:46.

and those on the right of British politics, is the element about what

:19:46.:19:51.

it does to local workforces. That is the bit where I think there is

:19:51.:19:56.

far more we can do, about making sure that you can't just say

:19:56.:20:00.

everybody we want to employ in this company, even though it is a

:20:00.:20:03.

company that serves Morrisons, or ASDA or were there, has got to be

:20:03.:20:09.

able to speak Polish. It would be good if they would all speak

:20:09.:20:13.

English. There are things you can do about making sure the minimum

:20:13.:20:18.

wage is possible -- properly enforced. Whenever you hear the

:20:19.:20:23.

word crack down, it is phoney. It means nothing will happen. We are

:20:23.:20:28.

not the government. If you were in office, it would just be another of

:20:28.:20:31.

those eye-catching policies with which the Prime Minister could be

:20:31.:20:36.

personally associated and nothing would happen. You want to have the

:20:36.:20:41.

votes of people whose opinions you secretly despise. No, no, sorry.

:20:41.:20:45.

The bit I object to about that, my constituents have been expressing

:20:45.:20:49.

these used to make, I have put them very clearly and I think it is

:20:49.:20:53.

right that we have policies at the next general election that address

:20:53.:20:58.

these issues. Which will amount to nothing in practice. Your cynicism

:20:59.:21:06.

is a beauty to behold. It is experience. I have heard of before.

:21:06.:21:08.

The big challenge is to come up with policies that can convince

:21:08.:21:14.

people... Absolutely, that will it -- this is only the first part.

:21:14.:21:18.

will put that for another day. coming back!

:21:18.:21:22.

You might use a mobile phone to pay your bills, catch up on the

:21:22.:21:25.

television or make sure you have take a whole week's worth of The

:21:25.:21:30.

Daily Politics and Sunday Politics. But have you ever used it to

:21:30.:21:34.

organise a political campaign, save a local hospital or plant trees in

:21:34.:21:38.

a park? It seems that some people, including many who never thought

:21:38.:21:43.

they had a scintilla of interest in politics, are doing just that. We

:21:43.:21:48.

sent Kate Conway to Nottingham to meet some.

:21:48.:21:52.

Women used to talk politics here, on the stoop, hanging out the

:21:52.:21:57.

washing. Over the fence. It is tempting to think that all of that

:21:57.:22:01.

has disappeared. But here in Retford, working-class women are

:22:01.:22:05.

doing garden wall politics, but they are doing it on line, on their

:22:05.:22:10.

mobile phone, and changing the way local services are run. When Adele

:22:10.:22:13.

Mumby found out there were plans to change the local maternity unit,

:22:13.:22:20.

she decided to do something about it. Having six children and being a

:22:20.:22:25.

mother, understanding what it meant and implications that that had, it

:22:25.:22:28.

got to me and I thought I have to do something about this. I

:22:28.:22:32.

contacted a local councillor, Graeme Oxby, and I contacted John

:22:32.:22:38.

Mann, and I said I have got some information. But it wasn't enough.

:22:38.:22:43.

My 10-year-old daughter's set it up there, as -- because I have no idea

:22:43.:22:49.

how to use Facebook or a phone. Within 10 minutes, there were 32

:22:50.:22:55.

members. Within an hour, it grew and grew. From text messages and

:22:55.:23:00.

Facebook, a campaign was born. And the local Labour MP, John Mann,

:23:00.:23:07.

says it is those very tools that social media has created a new type

:23:07.:23:12.

of voter. They haven't been engaged with politics. Here we are suddenly

:23:12.:23:19.

finding that non-voters, the so- called alleged apathetic, right in

:23:20.:23:25.

the middle of big politics, serious politics, changing things. I got

:23:25.:23:30.

two tonnes of soil delivered free of charge, railway sleepers. I got

:23:30.:23:33.

health and safety down here, the teenage lads designed it and built

:23:33.:23:38.

it. It is spot on. While the government may be planning a new

:23:38.:23:43.

force of 5,000 community organisers around the country, Lorna tells me

:23:43.:23:49.

she doesn't think they need outside help. The community is something

:23:49.:23:52.

that might interest people, but at the same time, we are doing it

:23:52.:23:56.

ourselves, we don't need somebody to be told you are in charge of the

:23:56.:24:00.

community, we are the community. They are not taking their cue from

:24:00.:24:04.

politicians, it is at the other way around. Would you ever read the

:24:04.:24:08.

tweets of John Mann or any other MP? No, I don't read tweets. Never.

:24:08.:24:12.

Which doesn't surprise this expecting political communications.

:24:12.:24:15.

It is about having an ongoing dialogue with the community, as

:24:16.:24:19.

opposed to blasting out a press release. It is about using these

:24:19.:24:23.

tools to find issues that people in the local community care about, and

:24:23.:24:27.

work out a way in which they as a politician and a leader can make a

:24:27.:24:33.

change in the community. For the Labour MP, John Mann, it is another

:24:33.:24:39.

way of winning. If we get those people partnering with us, we win

:24:39.:24:44.

an election. We will win an election by a significant majority.

:24:44.:24:50.

We are back in power. And if we trust those people and we transfer

:24:50.:24:54.

some real power to them, on their agendas, on their priorities, on

:24:54.:25:02.

their terms, I think we could be in power for a long time.

:25:02.:25:10.

Luke Bozier used to be Labour's e- campaigns campaigns -- e-campaigns

:25:10.:25:20.
:25:20.:25:21.

manager, he is now working for the Tories, launching a political rival

:25:21.:25:25.

to Twitter. Have these social media sides have a negative or positive

:25:25.:25:29.

effect? Absolutely positive. Politicians used to exist in a bit

:25:29.:25:32.

of a vacuum and the only time they would hear the voices of those they

:25:32.:25:35.

claim to represent his when they were back in their constituencies.

:25:35.:25:40.

A politician could only see a few handfuls of people every week.

:25:40.:25:43.

Twitter and Facebook, if a politician is into those networks,

:25:43.:25:47.

they get instant feedback. The work that they do, the things they say,

:25:47.:25:52.

they instantly get opinions from the public. That has a massive

:25:52.:25:56.

impact on politics. It has been a benefit to our democracy? Maybe it

:25:56.:26:00.

has. It seems to me the old- fashioned methods worked just as

:26:00.:26:04.

well. In my home town of Oxford, we had a campaign to save the public

:26:04.:26:07.

libraries. It used all kinds of old-fashioned things like people

:26:07.:26:10.

ringing each other up, the newspapers getting involved and a

:26:10.:26:14.

fantastic, thrilling public meeting addressed by Philip Pullman. At the

:26:14.:26:18.

end of it we saved the public libraries. I do remember a single

:26:18.:26:22.

click of Facebook page on the whole thing. You are not on Twitter, are

:26:22.:26:30.

you? Were you looking? How would you know. I am on Facebook, there

:26:30.:26:37.

is a Peter Hitchens must die on Facebook. We are all on that.

:26:37.:26:47.
:26:47.:26:48.

I don't know why you have to restrict yourself to 27 words or

:26:48.:26:53.

whatever it is. I can't see the point. Other people are welcome to

:26:53.:27:03.
:27:03.:27:04.

it. They are no substitute... I think you need both. Twitter is

:27:04.:27:08.

one tool, it gives a lot of people a voice. Facebook is good for

:27:08.:27:11.

organising, e-mail is good for campaign and fund-raising. You also

:27:11.:27:15.

need the real stuff as well. Where we have seen digital impact

:27:15.:27:20.

elections, for example in 2008 with Obama, they used digital with the

:27:20.:27:26.

real old stuff. That is positive. They used the internet to raise

:27:26.:27:32.

money. They did, they raised a fortune and it is good for that.

:27:32.:27:36.

They raised millions in very small donations. Twitter has changed the

:27:36.:27:40.

new cycle, even more. It has speeded it up even more. I rely on

:27:40.:27:45.

Twitter for my news feed now. I don't have to go to the BBC News

:27:45.:27:48.

website or to the Press Association to see what is going on. I look on

:27:48.:27:52.

Twitter and it is fantastic. It is more than 140 characters because

:27:53.:27:57.

people linked to a much more interesting Web page. It is a left-

:27:57.:28:01.

wing electronic mob. It is not left wing, for goodness sake. It is

:28:02.:28:07.

overwhelmingly left wing. How do you know? Because I am abused on it.

:28:07.:28:12.

We are all abused on it. There is a mob searching backwards and

:28:12.:28:18.

forwards. It has as many views as the people who use it. During the

:28:18.:28:23.

Budget, even before the Chancellor sat down, hashtag granny tax had

:28:24.:28:31.

come up. And pasty tax. suddenly it runs. Whereas the

:28:31.:28:35.

politicians themselves are not great at using it. More than half

:28:35.:28:40.

of MPs have Twitter. At the end of the England Ukraine match, Ed

:28:40.:28:44.

Miliband, or somebody else to write it for him, says, great result for

:28:44.:28:51.

England, credit to all the players. It is so banal, it could have been

:28:51.:28:56.

him. I am sure the England team work over the moon. Were Ian Haig's

:28:56.:29:01.

tweets are pretty pathetic. Some MPs are great on Twitter. Tom

:29:01.:29:11.
:29:11.:29:11.

Watson, Chris Bryant, Stella Creasy, Louise Minchin. Your newspaper it

:29:11.:29:18.

increasingly runs quotes based on stories from Twitter. I thought

:29:18.:29:22.

blogging seemed to be perfectly sensible. I thought Britain was a

:29:22.:29:25.

step too far. I think you have to select the bits of the electronic

:29:25.:29:28.

revolution that work for you. I think Facebook is already fading

:29:28.:29:32.

ever think Twitter will be forgotten in five years. Mention

:29:32.:29:36.

.com is the new one, I hope we can mention -- welcome you on that.

:29:36.:29:41.

What is the difference between your website and Twitter? It is a niche

:29:41.:29:44.

complement to Twitter, for people's interested in specific topics. At

:29:44.:29:54.
:29:54.:29:56.

In you can get 180 characters. Maybe you can sign up Peter? Toyota

:29:56.:30:00.

is a great discipline for try and get things done concisely --

:30:00.:30:04.

Twitter is. It is. You don't have to work for weeks to build up a

:30:04.:30:08.

following list, once you join you have that. The focus on the topics

:30:08.:30:13.

that interest you. Thank you for being with us.

:30:13.:30:17.

The first Earth Summit in 20 years has been taking place in Rio this

:30:17.:30:21.

week and ends today. The aim is to end sustainable -- reach

:30:21.:30:24.

sustainable development goals with targets for production and

:30:24.:30:28.

consumption. The Prince of Wales warned the gathering of the danger

:30:28.:30:38.
:30:38.:30:43.

We are facing increasing challenges. I have watched in despair at her

:30:43.:30:48.

slow progress has sometimes been and how the outright sceptical

:30:48.:30:53.

reluctance by some to engage with the critical issues of our day have

:30:53.:30:59.

often slowed that process to a standstill. The Prime Minister

:30:59.:31:04.

dispatched his deputy to the diplomatic jungle. There he is.

:31:04.:31:07.

Looking for Michael Gove. He was pessimistic about the chances of

:31:07.:31:13.

success. When you're dealing with 190 countries are bound -- around

:31:13.:31:17.

the negotiating table, you have a problem. UN de diluting things so

:31:17.:31:20.

that everybody agrees and the end result is more insipid than you

:31:20.:31:29.

would like. -- you end up. As the attempt to challenge climate change

:31:29.:31:34.

been lost in the misery of the global downturn? James Delingpole -

:31:34.:31:37.

- James Delingpole is the author of a book about how environmentalists

:31:37.:31:43.

are killing the earth. Let us come to friends of the Earth. Is the

:31:43.:31:47.

harsh reality, the undeniable truth not that apart from Prince Charles,

:31:48.:31:52.

in an age of austerity and uncertainty, people care less about

:31:52.:31:57.

the environment and more about where the jobs are coming from?

:31:57.:32:02.

do not think that is true. I do not think that is the case. Poll after

:32:02.:32:06.

poll shows that in the centre ground of politics, there is a lot

:32:06.:32:12.

of concern, almost as much as there was. Mr Obama and Mr Cameron could

:32:12.:32:19.

not be bothered to go. They're only sent Mr Clegg. The problem for Mr

:32:19.:32:22.

Cameron is that there is a drag out to the right in the Conservative

:32:22.:32:26.

Party with the debate is getting caught up. That means it will be

:32:26.:32:30.

difficult for him because this is an important centrist issue. But if

:32:30.:32:37.

he has pulled out to the right, fearing to lose voters from UKIP,

:32:37.:32:43.

then... Mr Obama, 80 thought this mattered in the November election,

:32:43.:32:47.

he would have gone. -- if he thought. It is very polarised in

:32:47.:32:53.

the US. In the UK, fascinatingly, while our economy has flatlined,

:32:53.:32:57.

the green sectors within the economy, including energy and also

:32:57.:33:02.

recycling and waste disposal, have grown by around about 5%. They are

:33:03.:33:07.

trend bucking sectors. Just because the economy is doing badly is no

:33:07.:33:11.

reason to turn our backs on saving the planet? I'm sorry you had to

:33:11.:33:15.

invoke the subject of green jobs because green jobs killed jobs in

:33:15.:33:21.

the real economy. Green jobs only exists because of taxpayer subsidy.

:33:21.:33:25.

We see this in the windfarm industry, onshore or whinge farms -

:33:25.:33:30.

- onshore wind farms operate on a 100% subsidy. Offshore wind farms

:33:30.:33:37.

operate on a 200% subsidy. These are not real jobs. I think it is

:33:37.:33:40.

time that we judge to the environmental movement on what it

:33:40.:33:45.

has actually achieved. What it has done is really quite serious harm.

:33:45.:33:50.

We have seen rain forests chop down to grow palm oil to create biofuels.

:33:50.:33:54.

We have had agricultural land diverted to biofuels, causing

:33:54.:33:59.

starvation and poverty. We have windfarms blighting the landscape,

:33:59.:34:03.

chopping up birds and killing bats. The environmental movement has

:34:03.:34:09.

damaged the global economy. Globally, over the last three years,

:34:09.:34:13.

more investor money has gone into renewable technologies than into

:34:13.:34:19.

conventional energy sources. I do not think investors share your view.

:34:19.:34:23.

Much of that is government money. lot of that is from the private

:34:23.:34:27.

sector. But subsidised. There is a subsidy in the system for renewable

:34:27.:34:33.

technologies. It is coming down dramatically as costs fall globally

:34:33.:34:38.

in solar by 75% in the past five years. There is promise and

:34:38.:34:42.

investors disagree. The tragedy of the situation in the UK is that

:34:42.:34:46.

blowing hot and cold, flood flopping on green as the coalition

:34:46.:34:49.

is doing, is killing investor confidence, which means that people

:34:49.:34:53.

will not put money into the economy. David Cameron was pictured with

:34:53.:34:58.

huskies, talking about selling -- installing a wind turbine in

:34:58.:35:02.

Downing Street, now he does not even go to the Rio summit. It

:35:02.:35:06.

cannot be denied that priorities have changed. He was in Mexico. He

:35:06.:35:14.

could have gone down. They were clashing, the G20 and real. -- real.

:35:15.:35:19.

Mr Clegg is still there. A correct me if I'm wrong, do not think he

:35:19.:35:22.

has made a speech on the Environment says he has become

:35:22.:35:25.

Prime Minister. I think there is a feeling that being green is a

:35:26.:35:30.

luxury you can afford during good times and not during bad times.

:35:30.:35:34.

Nick Clegg goes halfway round the world to the summit but he is only

:35:34.:35:38.

quoted on his reaction to Michael Gove's plans for all levels. What

:35:38.:35:43.

was interesting is how that time the BBC, which has been taken over

:35:43.:35:51.

by fanatics, has devoted to it. It is observable truth. The BBC does

:35:51.:35:57.

not believe it has any business to be impartial. That is why we have

:35:57.:36:01.

James on. Our eye and the exception that proves the rule. And you, for

:36:01.:36:06.

that matter. -- I am the exception. Having people on is not the same as

:36:07.:36:10.

having a general bias in favour of certain things. It has not bothered

:36:10.:36:17.

us because the cult is visibly dying. Fewer and fewer people

:36:17.:36:21.

believe in the science of man-made global warning. It is how they will

:36:21.:36:26.

get out of it, when it has eventually become so obvious that

:36:26.:36:31.

the thing was a cult and a scam. How will they get out of it?

:36:31.:36:39.

there is a fact, if he would shut up for a minute. Hang on a minute,

:36:39.:36:43.

I didn't come here to keep quiet. To keep quiet for the next few

:36:43.:36:46.

minutes. There is evidence that people do not worry about it so

:36:46.:36:49.

much. They do not worry about it and they do not think it is as

:36:49.:36:54.

important. They think scare stories were told. One of the fact, and I

:36:54.:36:58.

will put it like that to find out if it is true, is that people like

:36:58.:37:02.

James say that actually temperatures have not risen in this

:37:02.:37:06.

century and so we are right not to be worried about it so much. What

:37:06.:37:13.

say you? 1998 is the base year for that statement. 1998 is

:37:13.:37:17.

statistically an outlier year. It was a big bulge. If you look at the

:37:17.:37:20.

Trent, which any serious statistician will do overtime, it

:37:20.:37:25.

is consistently up. Some of the warmest years of light -- in record

:37:25.:37:28.

have been in the last 20 years or so. Have temperatures continue to

:37:28.:37:38.
:37:38.:37:39.

rise? Yes. In fact, NASA put 2005 in its state above 1998. Professor

:37:39.:37:43.

Phil Jones of the climatic Research Unit, you could not get more

:37:43.:37:50.

warmest than that man, he has said there is no statistical warming

:37:50.:37:53.

trend since 1995. If it has increased a tall, it is so tiny as

:37:53.:37:59.

to make no difference. I will send you the Graf later. But this

:37:59.:38:02.

matters. If people feel the temperatures are not rising, they

:38:02.:38:06.

are unlikely to follow the green agenda when it comes to global

:38:06.:38:13.

warming. I saw an interesting poll yesterday conducted by Ipsos MORI.

:38:13.:38:17.

Do you know who people trust most on this issue? They trust the

:38:17.:38:27.
:38:27.:38:28.

scientists. 66% are people trust scientists and only 9% Trust

:38:28.:38:31.

journalists. You know most of the people who talk on this subject,

:38:31.:38:35.

they are not scientists. Even on the global warming sight, they are

:38:35.:38:42.

mainly lobbyists. Are you a scientist? I am not. My case rests.

:38:42.:38:50.

If I can finish. Of course. vast majority of physicists and

:38:50.:38:55.

scientists say that global warming is accelerating. Even a of global

:38:56.:38:59.

warming is not happening, and I'm not a scientist and a warm-up line

:38:59.:39:02.

on this, surely it makes sense to use more sources of energy that

:39:02.:39:07.

will not run out and fewer sources of energy that will run out? Or oil

:39:07.:39:10.

and coal will eventually run out of the Sun will not stop shining. What

:39:10.:39:16.

is the problem? One. About scientists. Scientists questions --

:39:17.:39:26.
:39:27.:39:28.

scientific questions are not decided by majority, they are

:39:28.:39:32.

defined by results. That is meaningless. There is an energy

:39:32.:39:35.

crisis here. In a few years' time we will not have enough electricity

:39:35.:39:41.

to run the sort of economy that we have, particularly the heavy

:39:41.:39:45.

electronic economy we have become. There is an urgent need to provide

:39:45.:39:50.

reliable power and wind power and solar power will not and cannot do

:39:50.:39:57.

it. One of the things, on this matter you cannot laugh at this

:39:57.:40:01.

movement, because they are preventing serious consideration.

:40:01.:40:05.

We have loads of shale gas. And we will do another debate on that

:40:05.:40:09.

another day. I would like to say before you go, if you could both

:40:09.:40:13.

block on this issue, off what has been happening to temperatures over

:40:13.:40:17.

the past 15 years, if we could take you Bloggs and put them on the

:40:17.:40:22.

Daily Politics website, let us get a debate going. I think it is one

:40:22.:40:25.

of the key issues that is determining people's attitudes.

:40:25.:40:31.

would be delighted. Earlier this week, we thought that came to was

:40:31.:40:34.

the second highest mountain on earth. It delays. Since then, we

:40:34.:40:38.

have discovered that it is not a pile of rocks in the Himalayas, it

:40:38.:40:42.

is Jimmy Carr's money in Jersey. Apparently it is a kind of

:40:42.:40:45.

Investment Trust which allowed the comedian to avoid the kind of

:40:45.:40:50.

income tax that the rest of us get lumbered with. Where was my

:40:50.:40:54.

accountant when I needed him? David Cameron described this legal

:40:54.:40:58.

behaviour as "Morally unacceptable." Yesterday, the Jimmy

:40:58.:41:02.

Carr did the fastest climb down in history, pulling out of the scheme

:41:02.:41:07.

and apologising. He had to apologise on Twitter. In the House

:41:07.:41:10.

of Commons, Labour pointed out a lack of even-handedness in the

:41:10.:41:17.

Government's combination. -- condemnation. The depth to Prime

:41:17.:41:21.

Minister rushed to the TV studios to condemn the tax-avoidance scheme

:41:21.:41:26.

used by Jimmy Carr. -- Deputy Prime Minister. Oddly, he did not condemn

:41:26.:41:29.

as morally repugnant the tax- avoidance scheme are used by

:41:29.:41:33.

Conservative supporter, Gary Barlow, who has given a whole new meaning

:41:33.:41:42.

to the phrase, Take That. If it is also morally repugnant, why has he

:41:42.:41:48.

just been given a OBE in the birthday Honours? Why is the Prime

:41:48.:41:54.

Minister's view of what is dodgy in the tax system are so partial.

:41:54.:41:58.

Philip green as interesting tax relationships but far from being

:41:58.:42:02.

labelled morally repugnant, he is heading up a government review.

:42:02.:42:05.

While the Prime Minister talks are talking TV studios, the reality is

:42:05.:42:10.

that his government is cutting HMRC Resources, making it much harder to

:42:11.:42:14.

tackle tax avoidance schemes. In the botched Budget, his government

:42:14.:42:18.

has given every millionaire a legal way to reduce their tax bill by

:42:18.:42:26.

cutting tax for the rich as 1%. There are a number of measures that

:42:26.:42:33.

we are introducing. The anti- avoidance rule measures to make

:42:33.:42:38.

sure that at least some tax is paid by those on high incomes. The

:42:38.:42:46.

Chancellor will be at the dispatch box on Tuesday to answer questions.

:42:46.:42:50.

Last night, Jimmy Carr was recording his Channel 4 programme,

:42:50.:42:57.

8 Out of 10 Cats, which airs tonight. The 8 Out of 10 Cats pay

:42:57.:43:01.

their taxes, apparently. The fellow comedians did not let him off the

:43:01.:43:09.

hook, badly. Toby Young and Matthew buckshot are with us. -- Matthew

:43:09.:43:19.
:43:19.:43:19.

Oakeshott. A should satirists to be sent to a higher standards than

:43:19.:43:24.

others? Jimmy Carr had let himself wide open by doing a sketch on one

:43:24.:43:28.

of his shows attacking Barclays Bank for using exactly the kind of

:43:28.:43:34.

tax avoidance scheme but he was using himself. Game set and match?

:43:34.:43:37.

The difference to bring Gary Barlow and Jimmy Carr is that they are

:43:37.:43:41.

both guilty of tax avoidance but Jimmy Carr is also guilty of the

:43:41.:43:45.

son of hypocrisy. Not only did he write that sketch where he took the

:43:45.:43:48.

mickey out of Barclays for trying to do exactly what he has tried to

:43:48.:43:53.

do, but he also banks at Barclays, it now turns out. Really?! You

:43:53.:43:59.

cannot be guilty of tax avoidance if that is not illegal. No. You can

:43:59.:44:04.

be morally guilty. That is different. I think satirists are

:44:04.:44:08.

held to a higher standard and should be. The point of satire,

:44:08.:44:13.

dating back to the Greeks, was for the little man to tilt at the

:44:13.:44:18.

titans of the Establishment. To make him feel better about the fact

:44:18.:44:22.

that he himself earns very little. It is to comfort the afflicted and

:44:22.:44:28.

afflict the comfortable. The problem is that this tone that many

:44:28.:44:33.

of these left-wing comedians take is very much at odds with their own

:44:33.:44:36.

riches. It turns out that Jimmy Carr is not a little man at all, he

:44:36.:44:43.

is actually a fully paid-up member of the ruling class. He bought his

:44:43.:44:49.

house in north London for �8.5 million in cash. He paid cash!

:44:49.:44:58.

was a loan from his company, don't forget. Is it possible, taking the

:44:58.:45:03.

figure of Armando Ianucci now. He has made a career out of satirising

:45:03.:45:07.

the establishment and now takes an will be. Does that undermine him?

:45:07.:45:13.

don't know. I see what you mean about the court jesters. I think of

:45:13.:45:17.

Jimmy Carr, his problem is he did not give �50 to the Tories. Then

:45:17.:45:22.

David Cameron would not have objected. Like Mr Brown giving �2.5

:45:22.:45:28.

million to the Lib Dems. I do not offend that either. There is a

:45:28.:45:31.

difference, a serious point here. There is a difference a dream

:45:31.:45:36.

morally repugnant and illegal. I think it is right to draw that

:45:36.:45:43.

distinction. The key point for David Cameron and George Osborne is,

:45:43.:45:48.

what will we do about it now? How do we make this behaviour legally

:45:48.:45:53.

repugnant as well. Three it is such a huge loophole. Why not close it?

:45:53.:45:59.

That is what I'm saying. Let us just ask, a lot of this activity is

:45:59.:46:03.

deeply damaging to the country. We need the money. It is also deeply

:46:03.:46:07.

unfair. It is not technically illegal because the advisers to

:46:07.:46:17.
:46:17.:46:18.

these people are far, far better Who needs the money? What is this

:46:18.:46:22.

morality staff? Why is it Betty -- better for me or anybody else to

:46:22.:46:26.

give money that they have learnt to a government, which will throw it

:46:26.:46:32.

away on such things as wind farm subsidies, police who never go out,

:46:32.:46:38.

schools which apparently teach people to be more ignorant. The

:46:38.:46:45.

whole point about tax avoidance... If all the police in this country

:46:45.:46:50.

were abducted by aliens tonight, most people wouldn't notice. What

:46:50.:47:00.
:47:00.:47:00.

do they do? What about the schools you send your children to? As a

:47:00.:47:10.

matter of fact, the schools are so bad, they would be better off being

:47:10.:47:17.

kept at home. Tax avoidance by definition it is legal. You tell me

:47:17.:47:22.

the point at which it becomes immoral. Do you agree? I want to

:47:22.:47:26.

make the same point from a slightly different angle. If there is this

:47:26.:47:30.

important distinction between what you are morally obliged to play and

:47:30.:47:33.

what you are legally obliged to play, the maximum amount you are

:47:33.:47:36.

allowed to pay under the law shouldn't be the ceiling. If you

:47:36.:47:40.

believe in higher taxation, you are morally obliged to pay more tax

:47:40.:47:43.

than you are legally allowed to under the current system. If you

:47:43.:47:46.

think the highest rate of tax should be higher, you should

:47:46.:47:51.

actually donate money to HMRC, in addition to the maximum amount. The

:47:51.:47:57.

tizz an interesting idea but totally unrealistic. -- it is an

:47:57.:48:02.

interesting idea. I am happy to pay more tax and I would like to make

:48:02.:48:10.

more tax. But I -- to pay more tax. But only if that is part of

:48:10.:48:17.

everybody having to. So you want me to pay more tax? I want everybody

:48:17.:48:22.

to pay more tax but I also wanted to be fair. We are drifting right

:48:22.:48:27.

of the main point, which is no one can say what the line is between

:48:27.:48:33.

morally repugnant and not. There are some things that are the wrong

:48:33.:48:37.

side of the line. What Jimmy Carr did is the wrong side of the line,

:48:37.:48:40.

as well as many other people who David Cameron is not prepared to

:48:40.:48:44.

condemn, very selective condemnation. That is what we have

:48:44.:48:52.

got to do. The biggest scandal of them all his non-dom status. A one

:48:52.:48:55.

to ask Toby, do you have any objections to Jimmy Carr paying

:48:55.:48:59.

only 1% tax? No, no one is morally obliged to pay more than they are

:48:59.:49:06.

legally required to. Your admirably run a new free school, who is going

:49:06.:49:12.

to fund that if we will pay 1% tax? I don't think he is morally at

:49:12.:49:16.

fault, I think you have to simplify the tax code, which is what the

:49:16.:49:23.

Chancellor tried to do in his last Budget. And failed. You don't think

:49:23.:49:29.

it is anti-social to pay 1% tax? You need to simplify the tax code

:49:29.:49:35.

and close some of the loopholes. I don't think he is morally at fault.

:49:35.:49:39.

Have you never used a tax avoidance scheme? You don't even put money

:49:39.:49:44.

into an ISA? I am best in my pension but it is not using a tax

:49:44.:49:50.

avoidance scheme. It is available to everybody. So is this. This is

:49:50.:49:56.

not available to everybody. This is only available to people who have

:49:56.:50:00.

very expensive advisers. You can only put money into an ISA if you

:50:00.:50:04.

have the savings in the first place and many people watching this have

:50:04.:50:08.

no savings. You never advise your clients to go into tax-avoidance

:50:08.:50:12.

schemes? No, I advise pension funds and charities who are tax free

:50:12.:50:17.

anyway, actually. It is an important point. I pay my pension

:50:17.:50:21.

fund contributions, have stopped because I and 65 but I get the same

:50:21.:50:25.

tax breaks as everybody else. This is different because this is a

:50:25.:50:28.

secret scheme, until exposed by the Thames, which most people didn't

:50:28.:50:32.

know about and is very expensive. People who can't afford to pay into

:50:32.:50:42.
:50:42.:50:55.

a pension can't take advantage of Doing some things to mitigate your

:50:55.:50:59.

tax is one thing. Being a multi- millionaire and only paying 1% of

:50:59.:51:06.

your tax is surely wrong. I find it really odd that you don't see

:51:06.:51:11.

anything wrong in paying 1% tax. Using these artificial schemes to

:51:12.:51:16.

dodge tax. If I were legally able to pay as little tax, and I

:51:16.:51:20.

challenge anyone to say sincerely that they feel different, if you

:51:20.:51:23.

were legally able to pay as little tax as Jimmy Carr did, you would

:51:23.:51:30.

take the opportunity. I would not. I could do that and I don't. I

:51:30.:51:34.

could buy one of these schemes, and I don't. I choose not to because I

:51:34.:51:38.

think it is grossly wrong and it should be illegal. We are going to

:51:38.:51:45.

move on. The end of another week here at Westminster.

:51:45.:51:51.

Even though they are travelling on for Britain. With David Cameron in

:51:51.:52:01.
:52:01.:52:01.

Mexico and Nick Clegg in Brazil. Being a world leader isn't easy,

:52:01.:52:07.

especially when you have got to go to G20 summits in... Sunny Mexico.

:52:07.:52:11.

Greece turned the head honchos pale, and Spain, Egypt and Syria didn't

:52:11.:52:18.

give them a load -- rosy glow, either. David Cameron failed to see

:52:18.:52:26.

eye-to-eye with Argentina President Christine Nestor Kirchner. --

:52:26.:52:35.

Krisztina de curtain-up. O-levels to be on the way back. A some Lib

:52:35.:52:41.

Dem colleagues are not happy. Simon Hughes could be in hot water.

:52:41.:52:49.

the deputy... The Foreign Secretary make clear... I won't mention to

:52:49.:52:55.

the Deputy Prime Minister his slip. It is entirely between ourselves.

:52:55.:53:00.

Andy's four walls. And all of us, but we won't tell, will we? -- and

:53:00.:53:10.
:53:10.:53:16.

An interesting week Michael Gove. Interesting week for Michael Gove,

:53:16.:53:19.

of course - starting out the week upsetting Lord Leveson and ending

:53:19.:53:22.

it by upsetting Nick Clegg about the idea of bringing back O-levels.

:53:22.:53:25.

And another kind of Big Sam that would go with them, they used to be

:53:25.:53:31.

called CSC's. -- another kind of exam that would go with them. Toby

:53:31.:53:37.

and Matthew are still here. Michael Gove is up to something entirely

:53:37.:53:40.

different. This is a vote which began on Jeremy Hunt, it is the

:53:41.:53:43.

separation of the Liberal Democrat and Conservative parties, which

:53:43.:53:48.

will eventually become an actual split. There will be a lot of

:53:48.:53:53.

posturing by work -- both parties. This is the Tory party pretending

:53:53.:53:58.

it is more conservative. This proposal has no hope of becoming a

:53:58.:54:03.

practical fact. Is that true? The Lib Dems say they were not told

:54:03.:54:06.

about it. We understand the Prime Minister was not told about it

:54:06.:54:11.

either, so Mr Clegg should not feel too out of joint. Would it be good

:54:11.:54:18.

or bad to have more robust exams in our schools? I agree that this is

:54:18.:54:22.

all about the Tories differentiating. As with Leveson,

:54:22.:54:26.

this is about Michael Gove starting off his leadership campaign of the

:54:26.:54:32.

Tory party several years earlier. I take with a pinch of salt that

:54:32.:54:36.

David Cameron didn't know anything about it. Will the Lib Dems attempt

:54:36.:54:40.

to stop this happening? We will stop it happening, it is not in the

:54:40.:54:43.

coalition agreement, there is no point did, it is a political stunt.

:54:43.:54:48.

Why are you against it? The last thing we want is a major

:54:48.:54:54.

reorganisation of the educational system. And 80 s was -- the NHS one

:54:54.:55:04.

There is already available in schools but a Bach we have a two-

:55:04.:55:14.
:55:14.:55:17.

I think all children should be held to a higher standard and we hope

:55:17.:55:22.

all our children will sit O-levels, if the change goes through. I think

:55:22.:55:25.

Nick Clegg over-reacted, I don't see why he has decided to make it a

:55:25.:55:29.

test of strength. He said, I knew absolutely nothing about this, I

:55:29.:55:33.

have been completely in the dark, but I am against it. It was almost

:55:33.:55:36.

confessing that it was a knee-jerk reaction. He didn't condemn it for

:55:36.:55:40.

the reason you have said, that it would involve too much

:55:40.:55:44.

reorganisation, he said, this is a policy for the few, not the money.

:55:44.:55:47.

Because only a few children will be able to take O-levels. But the

:55:48.:55:51.

proposal is that the vast majority of children to be able to take O-

:55:51.:55:56.

levels, as they do in Singapore. In Singapore, 80% of children should

:55:56.:56:00.

take O-levels, why should our children not be as intellectually

:56:00.:56:05.

able? We have to compete against Singapore. I think are in tile

:56:05.:56:13.

school system -- our entire school system is coasting. It is importer

:56:13.:56:18.

that we introduce more rigour into our examinations. -- important that.

:56:18.:56:22.

Bright children are not challenged enough. Our education system is

:56:22.:56:28.

biased towards the middle. It is really aimed at children who are

:56:28.:56:38.
:56:38.:56:40.

being listed -- lifted from a D, to a C grade. O-levels were designed

:56:40.:56:45.

for a selective state secondary education system. They were

:56:45.:56:48.

introduced in 1981 with that in mind. They had to go because the

:56:48.:56:52.

comprehensive system, introduced by Labour with Tory support, made it

:56:52.:56:57.

impossible to sustain those levels of education. The GCSE was

:56:57.:57:01.

introduced to blur the fact that standards had been reduced. Unless

:57:01.:57:05.

you address that, and Michael Gove has neither the power nor intention

:57:05.:57:11.

to address it, it is all posturing. The point is that if Michael Gove

:57:11.:57:14.

was serious about doing this and getting it through the government,

:57:14.:57:19.

you don't suddenly leak it to the Daily Mail. They is no evidence

:57:19.:57:29.
:57:29.:57:31.

that Michael Gove bleak it himself. If you want a policy to happen, you

:57:31.:57:39.

discuss it properly and you get by it. He doesn't need legislation for

:57:39.:57:43.

this? Doesn't he? Who knows? Any major change has to be agreed by

:57:44.:57:49.

the cabinet say it ain't going to happen. We have to go.

:57:49.:57:52.

There's just time before we go to find out the answer to our quiz.

:57:52.:57:55.

The question was: Over what crime is the European Commission taking

:57:55.:58:04.

Britain to court? Answer: it's the garlic. Apparently it's left a bad

:58:04.:58:13.

taste in the mouth. Remind me how you will stop this. The garlic?

:58:13.:58:17.

change in the exam system if it doesn't need a bill. The edge it

:58:17.:58:22.

Asian department will always oblige. No cabinet and -- the education

:58:22.:58:30.

department will always oblige. cabinet minister can go off on his

:58:30.:58:40.
:58:40.:58:47.

own back and do something like that. The One O'clock News is starting

:58:47.:58:50.

over on BBC One now. I'll be back on BBC One on Sunday with the

:58:50.:58:53.

Sunday Politics at 11:00, with the Chief Secretary to the Treasury,

:58:53.:58:56.

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