21/06/2012 Daily Politics


21/06/2012

Andrew Neil and Jo Coburn with the latest political news including plans to scrap GCSEs, and the doctors' industrial action. Features interviews with Simon Burns and Jeremy Browne.


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Afternoon, folks. Welcome to the Daily Politics. It could be back to

:00:42.:00:45.

the 80s for exams, as the Government considers a return to O

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levels. We'll ask whether the changes could restore the

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reputation of secondary school qualifications. Paying your taxes?

:00:53.:00:56.

You're having a laugh. Comedian Jimmy Carr apologies for avoiding

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tax after David Cameron slaps him down. But will the joke end up

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being on the Prime Minister? doctors take industrial action

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today over government changes to their pension scheme, the BMA and

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the Health Minister join us to debate the issues. And as Aung San

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Suu Kyi visits Westminster on the latest leg of her trip to the UK,

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we'll ask Foreign Office Minister Jeremy Browne why the Government is

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also inviting the military-backed Burmese President to Britain.

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what of England's chances at the Euros? We've been asking

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parliament's best footballing brains if they can go all the way.

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We must not get carried away. We have to take each game as it comes.

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I think he will be getting carried away when it comes to the match

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with Italy, even carried out! All that in the next hour. With us for

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the duration former Director General of the CBI, Labour Trade

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Minister and keen football fan, it says here, Digby Jones. He supports

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Aston Villa, which I'm told is a football team! Thank you for having

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me. Prince William supports him. And also David Cameron. Welcome.

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Let's start with David Cameron's decision to criticise the TV comic

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Jimmy Carr for his tax arrangements. It was revealed in the Times

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newspaper. The comedian has been using an off-shore scheme to pay as

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little as 1% income tax. This morning Mr Carr said he'd made a

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terrible error of judgement, despite the scheme being entirely

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legal. Here's what Mr Cameron had to say. Some of these schemes where

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people are parking huge amounts of money offshore and taking loans are

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back to minimise their tax rates, it is not morally acceptable and I

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put it like this. Think of all those people who work hard, pay

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their taxes, and out of their post- tax incomes, save up to go and see

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Jimmy Carr, he is taking that money and of putting it somewhere where

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he does not have to pay taxes. That is not right. The Prime Minister

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talked about the morality of paying taxes in relation to Jimmy Carr's

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tax affairs. Should be commenting on individual tax payer? He is in

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Mexico taking a trade delegation with him, and they wish he had

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stuck to his knitting and created jobs and wealth for Britain by

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being there, rather commenting on such a domestic issue, but it's a

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very, very difficult path for a Democratic elected politician to

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take. On the one side, it's great politics. Especially at the moment,

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it is excellent to be able to say, we've got these rich people not

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breaking the law but they are morally repugnant. That's a phrase

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which could come back to haunt them. Spot on. To get popularity, the

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problem is, one man's tax avoidance is another man's planning. And

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everybody does something which is perfectly legal but is a way of

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minimising it. Jimmy Carr says he met with his financial adviser who

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asked them, do you want to pay less tax and it's totally legal? Jimmy

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Carr said yes. What is morally repugnant about that? If it's so

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bad, why doesn't the Government close the loophole? Labour was in

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power for 13 years, and the loophole has been there all this

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time. If these things are so wrong, why do they exist? I actually sat

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next to Gordon Brown at a dinner and he was clamping down on self-

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employed IT professionals. Years ago, now. I remember saying, why

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are you going after these people? What they are doing is illegal. And

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not every professional footballer in the Premiership? Frankly, the

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tax avoidance, which goes on with highly remunerated of footballers...

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He said, if you think I'm going to lose the boats are the people who

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support these footballers, you have got to be joking. -- the votes.

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People have to make a moral judgement about what they do and

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then governments are there to reflect the electorate's view on

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whether it should be illegal or not and if it's not right, pass a law

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to stop it. Over the years, politicians of all persuasions have

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made the tax code more and more complicated. And they have put

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taxes on there and loopholes there. Look at the film schemes introduced

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by Labour as a way to get money in, but the tax guide under Gordon

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Brown went from this thick to this thick. My accountant said to me, I

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can't carry around the tax code any more because it's too big. With

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smart accountants, finding dodgy ways around it... We have a

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politician railing against the market. You put it tax up to a rate

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where it pays some body to try to avoid it but it was lower, people

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wouldn't do it. If the market doesn't like what Jimmy Carr is

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doing, they won't go and watch his show. How do you differentiate

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between it aggressive tax avoidance and straightforward tax avoidance?

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I do great... I gave money to charity and a try to put other 10

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and I took huge exception to being told, when I put a bit in and the

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Government puts a bit in and the charity gets it, it is morally

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repugnant tax avoidance. I thought, if you're going go down this path,

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be careful because you will put a lot of people down a road where

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they have a label they don't deserve or forgive. The Prime

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Minister has made to open season on people like Jimmy Carr. We should

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look at Tory donors, Tory MPs, Cabinet colleagues, celebrity

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supporters. We will see where this ends. It will be very interesting.

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Now, today's Daily Mail has something of a scoop. We are giving

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the Daily Mail credit. Usually it just steals other people's scoops

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and does not give them credit. They've got hold of leaked

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documents from the Department of Education on Government plans to

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overhaul the exam system. Michael Gove was summoned to the Commons

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this morning to confirm the plans which he said are going out to

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consultation. So what has he got in mind and what could it mean for

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school children in England? Here's Jo with the details. Yes, it seems

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Michael Gove and his team have been burning the midnight oil. They've

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come up with a new plan for school exams in England. Well, not so new

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as it turns out. They're looking at getting rid of GCSEs and bringing

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back O Level style exams. Remember them? It's understood the Education

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Secretary believes GCSEs have led to a collapse in standards. And the

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new tests would, it's claimed, meet or exceed the highest standards in

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the world for that age group. The subjects would include English,

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Maths and the individual sciences Physics, Chemistry and Biology.

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There could also be new exams in History, Geography and modern

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languages. Less able pupils might also sit a simpler CSE-style exam.

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What's more, it's been reported that Mr Gove wants just one exam

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board to set the new papers instead of schools being able to pick and

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chose, something which ministers have claimed contributes to a race

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to the bottom. However head teachers will have more choice on

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what they teach, as the plans include proposals to scrap the

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national curriculum in secondary schools. Something that already

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happens in academies. Andrew. Thanks. We're joined to discuss the

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plans by Conservative MP Liz Truss. And the shadow schools minister

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Kevin Brennan. Welcome. Why don't we start with a short opening

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statements. What is the case for this reform? Britain is

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underperforming, our international competitors, we are 28th in the

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world, 16th for science. It's not good enough. We have been overtaken

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by Germany. The Asian countries are racing ahead, Canada is doing very

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well and unfortunately, although we have seen the great inflation in

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schools, the real results are not better as shown by the

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international comparisons. The exam boards are competing with each

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other to make the exams easier, to get schools to take them, and we

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have seen the expose by the Telegraph this year showing it's

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going on so we need radical change. Will Labour oppose these reforms

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and why? If as reported in today's Daily Mail and we are returning

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back to O-levels and CSC's, yes, we would, because we fear it will

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close of opportunities for young people and Ken Baker this morning

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described by CSCs as a worthless piece of paper, as they were. I

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taught them. It was a change brought in by Mrs Thatcher for a

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reason, to make sure opportunities were not closed off to children at

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the age of 14. At the moment, 40% of students are not getting five

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good grades at GCSEs. They're getting grade which are not well

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regarded by employers. What we need to do, we're not talking about

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returning to that system but what we are saying, in top-performing

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countries, 80% of students are getting good quality qualifications

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at 16. Those who are not able to reach those standards, 20%, should

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be able to show what they can do in terms of mastering basic

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mathematics and English. They can't do that in the current GCSE

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structure. We are moving to a two- tier system, aren't we? There will

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be two sorts of qualifications and one of them inevitably would be

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seen as one for the poor. We have a two-tier system at the moment, 40%

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of students not getting good grades at GCSE is and who are bringing

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qualifications that employers don't take seriously and are having to

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retrain people to do. I think it's better to say... They are being

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sifted out by schools at the age of 14. Are they are told that they

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have to go for an inferior qualification. I'm afraid that is

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what will happen. I will come back. We have got plenty of time. Your

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party had 18 years. Yours had 12 years. 13 years. Between you, that

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is three scholastic generations. Three generations of children going

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through school. After 11 years of full-time, free compulsory

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education in this country, half the children, 48% who take a GCSE this

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summer, will not get a grade above a C grade. 42% of the employers,

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public and private sector, are people who come out of school and

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have to give them remedial training, teach them to read. You are

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squabbling now. What the average kid and empire once, just teach

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them to read, write and count. -- employee wants. This constant

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social streaming concept. You have got to teach them to read.

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completely agree that we didn't do enough when we were in government.

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Were you wrong to introduce the GCSEs? Margaret Thatcher did it.

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The A-level system was not right because not enough people were

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getting good quality occasions. were you wrong? Answer yes or no.

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It isn't right. It must have been on otherwise you would not be

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making these changes. It's IBS on know. The Tory high command is not

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going to hang you from Westminster Bridge! Just answer truthfully, yes

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or no. They were better than what went before but not as good as what

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we could have now. No one is holding you accountable. I did a

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GCSE in media studies myself, Andrew, so I'm well aware. Confess

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and be honest. Was it wrong to do it? They were an improvement but

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not enough of an improvement. there's an improvement, why are you

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going back to the way it was? want to say why it will be

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different. What we are envisaging his students will study in the same

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classes but when they get to 16 there will be a question about, are

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they up to doing the rigorous GCSEs or do they sit... So they sit at

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the same classroom but do it to different qualifications? Excuse me.

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You've had a good go, even they didn't answer my question. How can

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this country hope to compete with Germany or China or Singapore? One

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of the questions in the GCSE science paper is, do you use a

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microscope or a telescope to look at the moon? If you ask somebody

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that, you would think you were Jimmy Carr having a laugh. There is

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a good piece in today's Financial Times a dressing that very question.

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I haven't read it. It points out that the GCSE is available to

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children at every level and that may sound like an extremely simple

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question. It is, but it's not testing the ability of the pupils

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who are being stretched. What is the answer? Do you think Chinese

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children are being asked that question? They do get a paper like

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that. Do you think a Chinese kid is being asked that in a serious

:14:50.:14:57.

science exam in the Shanghai? idea. The answer is no. It is an

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all ability paper. If you're going to put in some children in a small

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number, clearly questions of that kind will be on it. It shows we

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have a two-tier system at the moment. Students are being asked

:15:10.:15:13.

low-grade questions at the moment. It's better to get basic English

:15:14.:15:20.

and maths in place. Back in the distant past, when the education

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system was ruined through the introduction of comprehensive

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schools, instead of saying it let's make the bits that don't work well,

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secondary modern, and CSC's, instead of saying that letters make

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that better, create more vocational skills and training, and Taylor

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something to people whose academic abilities is not so good, instead

:15:45.:15:55.
:15:55.:16:04.

of that, both of you in different Will it actually raise standards?

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If the problem is you were going to have a mediocre set of results, it

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will not raise standards, will it? We're asking schools to have higher

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aspirations. Students in all these other countries - 80% or 90% are

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doing high quality academic qualifications until they are 16.

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Why did you leave out then? That is top of the table. I do not think we

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can have a system that only educates a minority of people.

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Academic education is becoming more and more important. Mathematics

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commands highest earnings premium in the workplace. He cannot write a

:16:53.:17:03.
:17:03.:17:08.

whole bunch of students off. Half of students cannot read? Actually

:17:08.:17:12.

those standards have improved. I know you say about the return back

:17:12.:17:16.

to the system of having selection at 11, which is presumably what you

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favour in terms of grammar school as and secondary moderns. The vast

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majority of such -- children, literacy was terrible. It is wrong

:17:28.:17:32.

to say that half the children cannot read. It is wrong to say

:17:32.:17:38.

they cannot read at 16 - half the children. Why is it Beth half of

:17:38.:17:48.
:17:48.:17:50.

the Labour MPs actually supported our policy? -- that. We are out of

:17:50.:17:56.

time. A great debate. I am sure we will continue it. If you had

:17:56.:18:00.

surgery or an appointment planned with your consultant, chances are

:18:00.:18:06.

you're not be seeing a doctor because of industrial action over

:18:06.:18:12.

changes to pensions. We will bring to representatives of both sides of

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the dispute to argue their cases. The public finances we inherited

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were in a terrible situation. There was a necessity to rebalance public

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service workers' contributions to their pensions with taxpayers'

:18:28.:18:35.

subsidies. Instead of, for example, �4 out of �5 being contributed,

:18:35.:18:44.

there has been a shift. I wanted it still to be a really good pension

:18:44.:18:50.

scheme. When you look at it, for a junior doctor starting out, over

:18:50.:18:54.

their working lifetime, if the works through G68, some he is

:18:54.:19:04.

starting out at 2015 and 24, they will be able to have a pension -- a

:19:04.:19:11.

large pension. All the doctors will get the pension they expected when

:19:11.:19:20.

it spent -- expected. Starting with you, do you feel there is little

:19:21.:19:27.

sympathy for you and the strike? Some of the headlines in the papers

:19:27.:19:34.

saying, the strike will confirm a growing perception that the

:19:34.:19:40.

profession is fuelled by greed. This is the first time in nearly 40

:19:40.:19:45.

years that doctors have taken any sort of action. The public have to

:19:45.:19:49.

ask what has driven them to this and what meant that 70% of them

:19:49.:19:52.

said they wanted to take action because of the fact the Government

:19:52.:20:00.

had come back on the 2008 pension scheme. Let's have a look at

:20:00.:20:05.

doctors and GPs. What you say to reports that at supporters also

:20:05.:20:12.

waning? There were poles by GPs saying that 281 GP centres, 22%

:20:12.:20:16.

confirmed there would not be taking part. Doctors have taken this

:20:16.:20:20.

decision very reluctant they. I can fully understand and sympathise

:20:20.:20:25.

with doctors who do not want to take this dispute out on patients.

:20:25.:20:29.

That is why we have tried to minimise the impact on patients.

:20:29.:20:39.
:20:39.:20:41.

All doctors are treating emergency cases. I'm not out to maximise the

:20:41.:20:46.

adverse reaction on the public. We are talking but highlighting the

:20:46.:20:52.

problem and resolving the issue. What do you hope to achieve?

:20:52.:20:56.

Ministers could not have been clearer. They said the action

:20:56.:21:00.

stands no chance to talk in changing government policy. One way

:21:00.:21:05.

or another, one has to try to resolve these. There are be far

:21:05.:21:11.

better to resolve but sooner rather to talk, sit down and tried to find

:21:11.:21:17.

a way out of the problem. Why could do not have stop this happening?

:21:17.:21:24.

believe the deal being put forward is fair. You'll notice the nurses

:21:24.:21:29.

and Unison members are not striking today. Department of Health

:21:29.:21:35.

officials have had 23 meetings with the BMA to discuss this. It is

:21:35.:21:37.

unfortunate that chair of the pension committee did not turn up

:21:37.:21:43.

to the meetings. Hamish has had five meetings with the Secretary of

:21:43.:21:49.

State. Why have you not worked this out? Do not so we have not engage

:21:49.:21:53.

properly in negotiation. The head of our pensions department has been

:21:53.:21:57.

at every single meeting - the equivalent of every other union

:21:57.:22:02.

personnel was there as well. The idea we have not been committed to

:22:02.:22:08.

the discussions is untrue. Are you saying you will not negotiate?

:22:08.:22:14.

have come up with a fair deal. Ind has been accepted by the nurses'

:22:14.:22:22.

and Unison. -- it has been. If you joined the pension scheme in 2015,

:22:22.:22:27.

if you retire at 65, you will get a pension of �53,000. If you retire

:22:27.:22:35.

later, at 68, you will receive �68,000 a year pension, which is a

:22:35.:22:39.

pot of �1.5 million from the private sector. Why is that not

:22:39.:22:45.

acceptable? We went into more the issues about pensions in 2008. We

:22:45.:22:50.

had a deal where doctors would work longer, pay more and, where any

:22:50.:22:54.

future impact on the pension system would be taken by the employees and

:22:54.:22:59.

not by the Government. People live longer and the cost of pensions go

:22:59.:23:05.

up. That would be paid for by the employees and not the Government.

:23:05.:23:14.

It is wrong to compare it with another pot. At the moment, that is

:23:14.:23:19.

supplied �2 billion a year surplus to the Treasury. You have run a

:23:19.:23:28.

Tarmac deal? No, we have not. -- gone back on that deal? Very few

:23:28.:23:33.

have joined that scheme. That scheme renegotiated, Winnie was

:23:33.:23:38.

less good than the current scheme that doctors had. -- we knew. We

:23:38.:23:42.

agreed to it in the interest of the public. It is not surprising that

:23:42.:23:50.

few doctors joined bad. What you are now offering was far less good.

:23:50.:23:55.

The 2008 scheme which was put together did not take into account

:23:55.:24:01.

two key factors - one the economic situation and the cost to the

:24:01.:24:05.

country. You are saying you a change it because of the economic

:24:05.:24:11.

situation. Also because of changes in the lifespan of people. If you

:24:11.:24:21.
:24:21.:24:24.

retire at 60, it could be 34 years. Amanda working on the line a Jaguar

:24:24.:24:31.

has jumped through every hoop to keep in work. -- a man. Rarely have

:24:31.:24:37.

I ever sat in a television studio unwashed a turkey voting for

:24:37.:24:43.

Christmas. -- and watched. On behalf of that kite in Birmingham,

:24:43.:24:48.

making motor cars, you have just wash -- lost the street-cred your

:24:48.:24:55.

profession deserves. I am sorry you think that is the case. Doctors are

:24:55.:25:03.

now in the 30th of a pay freeze. -- third year. Doctors have agreed to

:25:03.:25:08.

pay more. Lord Hutton said, this is not the race. Public sector

:25:08.:25:13.

pensions are not gold-plated. It has always been part of working in

:25:13.:25:17.

the public sector that you had a degree of job security and

:25:17.:25:22.

reasonable pensions. Now doctors are having to pay almost twice as

:25:22.:25:27.

much as equivalents in the Civil Service. That cannot be fair.

:25:27.:25:32.

should doctors' pay much more for their pensions and well-paid civil

:25:32.:25:38.

servants and MPs? First of all, it is wrong to just isolate one aspect

:25:38.:25:45.

of the whole pension package. should they pay much more? 14.5%

:25:45.:25:55.
:25:55.:25:55.

Against 9%. Why is it so different? You are wrong! 14.5% after tax

:25:56.:26:00.

relief, that is 8.7%. If you are talking about MPs, they are

:26:00.:26:09.

currently paying 13.5% for their pensions. It rose from 11.25 %.

:26:09.:26:13.

That is bought eight 20th accrual. Matters in half the time the

:26:13.:26:23.

doctors would take. -- that is in half the time. On the broad., let's

:26:23.:26:30.

not get bogged down into much detail in terms of figures. -- on

:26:30.:26:39.

the broad point. Is it fair? Senior civil servants are earning, on

:26:39.:26:45.

average, �78,000 a year. Consultants are earning �116,500.

:26:45.:26:50.

The average pension for all civil servants, including senior, middle

:26:50.:26:57.

and junior, is about �31,000 the year. The average in the NHS scheme

:26:57.:27:06.

is �7,000. The doctors won �53,000, rising to 68 as an pounds. -- the

:27:06.:27:16.
:27:16.:27:20.

doctors want. -- the doctors want �53,000 rising to �68,000. Is it

:27:20.:27:25.

clever to cut funding for the NHS, introduce competition and carry out

:27:25.:27:31.

the biggest reorganisation of the NHS, impose a pay freeze and

:27:31.:27:35.

changed doctors pensions at the same time? BhS is a protected

:27:36.:27:43.

budget. They are having a modest real terms increase. -- the NHS is

:27:43.:27:48.

a protected budget. This was not going to get the doctors on side.

:27:48.:27:54.

It was difficult to get doctors on side at times at all. The NHS needs

:27:54.:28:00.

to continue to evolve. We cannot stand still. You are looking greedy

:28:00.:28:04.

and self-interested. You have not gone strike that money being sent

:28:04.:28:13.

for the NHS. You ask about your pensions. You know as well as I can,

:28:13.:28:17.

industrial law is you cannot go on strike for something like that -

:28:17.:28:24.

only for a contractual thing. could make a bigger deal upper tip.

:28:24.:28:31.

The beer maybe -- made a big deal about the changes. We were the

:28:31.:28:36.

first body to talk about this. We both have scars on our back to

:28:36.:28:42.

prove it. When teachers started to strike in the early 80s, they lost

:28:42.:28:47.

the link of trust between society and them. You're just about to go

:28:47.:28:53.

down the same path and that is a tragedy. Thank you both very much.

:28:53.:28:58.

Contrary to what Digby was saying, if any techies are watching this

:28:58.:29:05.

programme, I would like to reassure you, Christmas is a long way off! -

:29:05.:29:12.

- techies. It has been veiled Jimmy Carr paid in cash for his �8.5

:29:12.:29:21.

million house. -- it has been revealed that Jimmy Carr. I think

:29:21.:29:25.

we are in the wrong business the stuff we need to be comedians. Got

:29:25.:29:35.

Until very recently it would have been unthinkable. But this

:29:35.:29:38.

afternoon Aung Sang Sui Kyi, leader of Burma's Opposition and a woman

:29:38.:29:41.

who endured house arrest at the hands of her country's military

:29:41.:29:44.

junta for 15 years, will address both Houses of Parliament. She's

:29:44.:29:49.

only the second woman after the Queen to do so. In a moment, we'll

:29:49.:29:52.

talk to the Foreign Office minister Jeremy Browne about the trip and

:29:52.:29:54.

Britain's invitation to the President of Burma to visit the UK

:29:54.:29:59.

later in the year. But first let's go over to Adam Fleming who's

:29:59.:30:02.

outside the Houses of Parliament with two women whose lives have

:30:02.:30:05.

been touched by Aung San Suu Kyi and her campaign.

:30:05.:30:10.

Good afternoon. A really historic day in the Commons today. They just

:30:10.:30:14.

started cutting the grass on College Green but to discuss

:30:14.:30:18.

today's events we are joined by boot to women who have been

:30:18.:30:22.

affected by Aung San Suu Kyi. A woman who wrote a film about the

:30:22.:30:27.

Burmese opposition leader. And a woman who is from the Burma

:30:27.:30:30.

campaigner UK. Rebecca, this would be a great climax for your thumb,

:30:30.:30:37.

wouldn't it? Yes, when I voted for years ago, Aung San Suu Kyi had

:30:37.:30:41.

been under house arrest for over 20 years and the film was a

:30:41.:30:45.

campaigning film to campaign for her release so little did we know,

:30:45.:30:49.

history would move so quickly. does this fit into the story of her

:30:49.:30:55.

life? Today is a wonderful day. She's on a five-country tour of

:30:55.:30:59.

Europe and I think that in addressing both houses of

:30:59.:31:02.

parliament today, which is an honour accorded to usually only

:31:02.:31:08.

heads of state, I think the West are sending a clear signal to the

:31:08.:31:15.

military of Aung San Suu Kyi, but she has the right for leader, and

:31:15.:31:21.

she has who we wanted a business with. She won a landslide election

:31:21.:31:25.

victory in the 1991 and it will mean she will return to Burma at

:31:25.:31:32.

the end of this week with increased political clout. What is it like

:31:32.:31:37.

knowing you are going to be watching her? It is wonderful. Very

:31:37.:31:45.

inspiring and encouraging. To see Aung San Suu Kyi travelling outside

:31:45.:31:54.

Burma. She has the confidence she will be allowed back in Burma. Many

:31:54.:31:59.

others have been campaigning for her release. It is just very

:31:59.:32:03.

helpful and encouraging to see this, but I think the most important

:32:03.:32:08.

thing for us to see is what she has to say. The political messages she

:32:08.:32:13.

has been delivering throughout her trip in Europe is very good and

:32:13.:32:19.

very inspiring. There are still hundreds of political prisoners in

:32:19.:32:24.

Burma. The international committees, governments, have to do something

:32:24.:32:29.

about it for their release and, at the same time, for humanitarian aid

:32:29.:32:34.

to be increased in at Burma, especially for Refugees, to have a

:32:35.:32:39.

genuine peace in ethnic areas. The International Committee should pay

:32:39.:32:45.

attention. Are you worried that if people see Aung San Suu Kyi touring

:32:45.:32:49.

around Europe, they will think everything is fine now? Some people

:32:49.:32:54.

who don't know much about Burma, of course they might think that the

:32:54.:32:58.

problems are solved now but Aung San Suu Kyi makes it very clear

:32:58.:33:05.

that we still have a long way to go in Burma and the international

:33:05.:33:09.

community needs to support the people in Burma. Although the

:33:09.:33:18.

Government in Burma is opening up some kind of political phrases by

:33:18.:33:23.

stabilising problems in Burma... It's a problem for the

:33:23.:33:26.

international committee to support our community and the people in a

:33:26.:33:30.

Burma to have genuine peace. what about the British Government's

:33:30.:33:35.

invite to the President? It's far too soon. The British Government

:33:35.:33:39.

has sent bench marks against the Government in Burma and none of

:33:39.:33:44.

those benchmarks have been met. Thank you both for joining us. We

:33:44.:33:49.

have run out of time. The speech starts at 3pm and then there is a

:33:49.:33:56.

reception later on. Thank you, Adam. And welcome to

:33:56.:34:02.

viewers in Scotland. We're discussing Aung San Suu Kyi's visit

:34:02.:34:07.

to Britain. Her speech to the joint session of Parliament. And we're

:34:07.:34:11.

joined by Jeremy Browne, Foreign Office Minister. Are we in danger

:34:11.:34:16.

of thinking that the situation has been resolved in Burma now? Yes,

:34:16.:34:21.

because it has not been resolved but has shifted significantly. The

:34:21.:34:26.

balance to have to strike in the play Missy is to recognise change

:34:26.:34:30.

when you see it and reward it but not anticipate future change before

:34:30.:34:35.

it has happened. We are trying to get that balance right, encourage

:34:35.:34:40.

progress in Burma. This is a sick of a good part, this week, but we

:34:40.:34:48.

are not being blinded by it -- a significant part. That woman thinks

:34:48.:34:53.

it's too soon to invite the President of this country. He was a

:34:53.:34:58.

former general. He leads a military-backed party. Still a

:34:58.:35:04.

military regime. She thinks it's too soon. That could then it is

:35:04.:35:07.

sometimes made that in trying to reward progress and show good faith

:35:07.:35:14.

-- criticism -- in terms of my decisions going on in Burma with

:35:14.:35:20.

the people, we over reach ourselves. I don't accept that. I think we are

:35:20.:35:23.

getting the balance right. Aung San Suu Kyi is in favour of telling

:35:24.:35:27.

that level of engagement and the Prime Minister and Foreign

:35:27.:35:31.

Secretary have been in Burma this year, and as well as meeting her

:35:31.:35:34.

they had engaged with the Burmese authorities and the President as

:35:34.:35:39.

well. We have to manage that relationship as a whole, and him

:35:39.:35:47.

coming, I hope, will enable us to bring about reform in Burma. Have

:35:47.:35:53.

we normalised relations with Burma? We won't sell them arms, but have

:35:53.:35:59.

we returned to normality? Ride through, we had an embassy there. -

:35:59.:36:05.

- a right through. I look forward to being at posted there! What poor

:36:05.:36:10.

man had descended there! It's not normally the longest queue for that

:36:10.:36:15.

job. It's a politically interesting job when you arrive at. The British

:36:15.:36:18.

ambassador is back here for the Aung San Suu Kyi visit and is

:36:18.:36:22.

playing a central role in that. We have suspended EU sanctions and

:36:22.:36:27.

consciously not scrap them. They are in suspension and that was a

:36:27.:36:31.

conscious decision led by David Cameron and the British Government

:36:31.:36:36.

that we would have that hanging over them but if there was a

:36:36.:36:41.

demonstration of progress, the rewards follow, so there is a bit

:36:41.:36:47.

of coaxing. Over 400 political prisoners, still. Lots have been

:36:47.:36:56.

released. Amnesty and others had a campaign where you had people's

:36:56.:37:02.

names on your hands and campaigned for them. Those had been released

:37:02.:37:06.

so there has been great progress. I had a meeting with Aung San Suu Kyi

:37:06.:37:08.

and of Foreign Secretary this morning and she said she thought

:37:08.:37:15.

there was about 271 remaining political prisoners but you can get

:37:15.:37:17.

the ones who are most obviously political prisoners, they have been

:37:18.:37:22.

released. It's what you classified as a political prisoner because

:37:22.:37:27.

some of them, it may be described like that, may also be imprisoned

:37:27.:37:33.

for violent acts, for example. She said the 271 was not an absolute

:37:33.:37:40.

figure and there could be an error. A we are the biggest donor.

:37:40.:37:45.

gives us some substantial leverage. Although William Hague was the

:37:45.:37:50.

first British Foreign Secretary since the 1950s to visit Burma, and

:37:50.:37:55.

Richards had previously been. There's all kinds of difficulties

:37:55.:38:03.

in Burma. A lot of internal unrest. We are trying to help in that

:38:03.:38:10.

regard and I hope that that gives us a bigger... When I was in Delhi,

:38:10.:38:20.
:38:20.:38:20.

as a minister, I said when Burma finally opens up to the world, the

:38:20.:38:25.

real end during way of keeping reform in their face will be

:38:25.:38:30.

through trade. It will be through clean water, health care, education

:38:30.:38:34.

and all that comes from wealth created by people trading and

:38:34.:38:40.

investing. Am very supportive of what you're doing. I think the way

:38:40.:38:45.

you have put it is spot-on. When the cameras have gone home and Aung

:38:45.:38:49.

San Suu Kyi has gone home, and it's not flavour of the month any more,

:38:50.:38:54.

the Burmese have got to understand democracy pays and that by a job,

:38:54.:39:01.

healthcare, education. I strongly agree. What do we want to trade

:39:01.:39:07.

with them? There's a lot of opportunities. Let me help you.

:39:07.:39:10.

They have a lot of natural resources. The Chinese and the

:39:10.:39:17.

Indians are in their though, aren't they? I mean the support services,

:39:17.:39:23.

gas and oil fields. Really good people who can go in there. Also

:39:23.:39:27.

they need capacity, how to deliver and we are quite good at that,

:39:27.:39:35.

education and training. I want to move on. Will there be Lib Dem

:39:36.:39:42.

unrest at these education reforms? I haven't seen the details of the

:39:42.:39:46.

reforms but read some newspaper reports. I think what will be the

:39:46.:39:51.

guiding principle for the rank and file Lib Dems is to have a system

:39:51.:39:56.

where everybody is able to realise their potential. You don't have a

:39:56.:40:01.

glass ceilings put in at different layers. It's a return to a two-tier

:40:01.:40:06.

system. I think there has been some genuine concern, not only on the

:40:06.:40:10.

Conservative benches, that we need to make sure that different exam

:40:10.:40:15.

boards are not trying to compete with each other to make the system

:40:15.:40:21.

easier. Will your party be happy with a two-tier system? English and

:40:21.:40:26.

maths, we need to keep the rigour to be internationally competitive.

:40:26.:40:32.

Will you be happy with a two-tier system, a return to O-levels and a

:40:32.:40:40.

modern version of A C S E? instincts are obviously people will

:40:40.:40:49.

get the top grades and people will get, but we want to try and keep

:40:49.:40:55.

that under one umbrella bar than having separate strains. The OK. We

:40:55.:41:01.

have done Education and Burma. Versatile today. Now the big issue.

:41:01.:41:10.

England are playing Kiev on Sunday. I was unfairly treated earlier this

:41:10.:41:16.

week on the subject for the did you see that? I apologise. I have no

:41:16.:41:20.

idea what you're talking about. said England had never reached a

:41:20.:41:24.

final of the tournament held outside England. And this was

:41:24.:41:27.

reported as me predicting that England would not reach the final.

:41:27.:41:35.

I didn't do that at all. Can I now get on with a questions? No

:41:35.:41:39.

minister is going to go to the match in Kiev, in the Ukraine,

:41:39.:41:47.

correct? The quarter-final. Yes. The semi-final, if we get through,

:41:47.:41:53.

it's in Poland. So you can go there. What happens of England makes the

:41:53.:42:03.
:42:03.:42:04.

final in the Ukraine? I think we are reserving our position. Why?

:42:04.:42:07.

I'm definitely not going because I will be on the other side of the

:42:07.:42:16.

world. If it were you? The position, it has been, and answering the

:42:16.:42:23.

question, I'm not going. Would you go? The ministers in general?

:42:23.:42:27.

they go to the final if we make it to the final? It remains under

:42:27.:42:33.

review but I wouldn't have an assumption that they will do.

:42:33.:42:35.

if it's right to boycott the Ukraine for the reasons you have

:42:35.:42:40.

given, surely it doesn't matter whether it is the tiddlywinks

:42:40.:42:45.

championship or the finals of the year 2012? If you want to make an

:42:45.:42:50.

effective boycott, the final is the place to do it. Not going to a

:42:50.:42:57.

quarter-final,, a final, it consistently es or no. The position

:42:57.:43:03.

is that there is widespread feeling, shared by the British Government

:43:03.:43:06.

that they have been a serious errors of concern in the Ukraine

:43:06.:43:12.

and you want to demonstrate. The fact it's been discussed so widely

:43:12.:43:16.

in a way, as shown that we have got across that message very powerfully

:43:16.:43:20.

but there are people who say that it is appropriate, especially if

:43:20.:43:25.

you go to the later end of the competition, to have that type of

:43:25.:43:29.

representation. We will keep it under review but it wouldn't hold

:43:29.:43:32.

any great prospect that we would attend because of those concerns

:43:32.:43:37.

about human rights. You could make it that if you go to the final, you

:43:37.:43:42.

then have to go and be ambassador in North Korea as a penalty?

:43:42.:43:47.

that why you're not going? Are they hosting any tournaments any time

:43:47.:43:53.

soon? They did well in a 1966 World Cup. Their record since then...

:43:53.:43:57.

but then they could afford to eat. They are now richer than South

:43:57.:44:01.

Korea, though. An amazing transformation in that type of the

:44:01.:44:07.

world. Thank you very much. That's assuming England get to the final.

:44:07.:44:11.

What do you think? I would ask you! It's already been a summer to

:44:11.:44:13.

remember with Diamond Jubilees and the Olympics, not to mention

:44:13.:44:16.

England's imminent triumph in the Euros. The eyes of the world will

:44:16.:44:19.

be on Britain. So what better opportunity for putting our goods

:44:19.:44:22.

and services in the shop window? But are government and business

:44:22.:44:24.

really capitalising on it? And are they doing enough to promote

:44:24.:44:27.

British trade with the emerging economic superpowers of Brazil,

:44:27.:44:37.
:44:37.:44:44.

Russia, India and China? We sent We might not be able to guarantee

:44:44.:44:49.

the weather but this summer will be Britain a past of his chance to

:44:49.:44:57.

shine on the world's stage. We have had the Diamond Jubilee. --

:44:57.:45:02.

Britain's prime -- chance. Will any of this actually make a difference

:45:02.:45:06.

to the image of Britain in the world? Will it help to put our

:45:06.:45:13.

exports in the shop window? In the end, have you got the products?

:45:13.:45:19.

Have you got the people? Is the Government backing you? Can you get

:45:19.:45:25.

export and financial support? Too many answers remain, not quite, not

:45:25.:45:30.

sure. That is not the view from the coalition front bench. British

:45:30.:45:38.

exports to Brazil going at 37%. British exports to China going at

:45:38.:45:43.

61%. British exports to India going up 73%. That is because the British

:45:43.:45:46.

government is out there, championing British business, which

:45:46.:45:53.

the other side neglected to do. Brazil Russia India and China are

:45:53.:46:00.

the brick Nations. -- brake nations. These statistics do not tell the

:46:00.:46:07.

holster talk -- story. In the UK club bottom of the leak of EU

:46:07.:46:14.

nations when it comes to sending goods to emerging markets. -- the

:46:14.:46:21.

UK is bottom of the leak. Russia is a very good example of exporting

:46:21.:46:25.

its image. We're in the post- industrial age where Britain does

:46:25.:46:31.

not produce as much as it did in the 19th century. Russians aspired

:46:31.:46:37.

to everything, what is British and what is English. What open stores

:46:37.:46:45.

in Brazil? In Brazil, we are known for football. It has a Briton who

:46:45.:46:50.

took the first football in the 18 90s. We are known in different

:46:50.:46:55.

places for different things. We could be promoting our message even

:46:55.:47:00.

more. That is what is going to sell goods and services. Why aren't we

:47:00.:47:07.

selling more? They do not cut as any slack. We think the Indians are

:47:07.:47:12.

our friends. Belgian exports more to India than we do. Unless we have

:47:12.:47:18.

the products, the personnel, we have to get up and go guys, but

:47:18.:47:24.

above all we have a government that believes in helping companies

:47:24.:47:30.

export. Ministers say they believe that there is no bang behind their

:47:30.:47:34.

words. When I was in Brazil receiving British business figures,

:47:34.:47:39.

there were two things they always said. They had no idea Brazil was

:47:39.:47:44.

like it was. The second was that they will be back. Sadly, quite a

:47:44.:47:52.

few were impressed but never came back. Heritage is one of Britain's

:47:52.:47:59.

u s ps. That will determine whether our trade is left in the past. --

:47:59.:48:05.

unique selling points. Let's start with the image of Britain abroad.

:48:05.:48:10.

How are reviewed on the trading saying? I was an international

:48:10.:48:20.
:48:20.:48:21.

corporate finance a liar. It has -- lawyer. I do not think it has

:48:21.:48:26.

changed. We are seen as slow but we are trusted. More than the

:48:26.:48:30.

Americans and the French. More than the Germans and Japanese. We're a

:48:30.:48:36.

trusted trading partner. People believe Bass and like to associate

:48:36.:48:42.

with our values. -- belief asked. When you buy something for me by

:48:42.:48:47.

because you feel good about it all. As emerging markets get richer,

:48:47.:48:51.

middle classes have disposable income. What do they want to show

:48:51.:49:01.
:49:01.:49:04.

off? And services. They want to buy a Mini. They want a Jaguar Land

:49:04.:49:08.

Rover. They want a Vodafone made in Newbury. They want to send their

:49:08.:49:13.

kids to a British university. That is buying into a feeling of

:49:13.:49:20.

Britishness. In the last 30 years, nothing has changed. Middle classes

:49:20.:49:27.

are growing and expanding in the -- in those countries. We make half of

:49:27.:49:36.

every Airbus that is ever flown. A lot take off from Toulouse. It is

:49:36.:49:43.

booked as the French export. Reebok kit as an export to France. We make

:49:43.:49:52.

half of it. -- week book it. They book a whole thing. France sell a

:49:52.:49:57.

lot more to India and China. That happens a lot. Secondly, an awful

:49:58.:50:03.

lot of what we do it in emerging markets, we have come in from other

:50:03.:50:07.

ways. Higher education is a fabulous export in this country. It

:50:07.:50:14.

is them coming to us. Services is another one. On a monorail in Dubai,

:50:14.:50:24.
:50:24.:50:28.

we ran it. It is not a sensible sale. -- Serco run it. We have a

:50:29.:50:38.
:50:39.:50:42.

Secretary of State who does not use British goods. They do not get it.

:50:42.:50:49.

I came up against this all the time as Trade Minister. It is open

:50:49.:50:56.

market. I do not want protectionism. What I want is in the DNA of people.

:50:56.:51:02.

It is not protectionist. I would love Vince Cable to get in every

:51:02.:51:09.

day the Toyota, Nissan or Honda made in Britain. The British

:51:09.:51:15.

business minister gets into a Japanese car made in Japan? Because

:51:15.:51:20.

they cannot understand why it matters. When I was the minister,

:51:20.:51:28.

the first thing that happened Dom we made Nissan in Sunderland.

:51:28.:51:35.

the first thing that happened at... I am saying if you put him in here

:51:35.:51:39.

and asked if he was patriotic, he would say, of course I am. When I

:51:39.:51:49.
:51:49.:51:52.

got there, they said, it is your car. They do not get it. As you can

:51:52.:51:55.

imagine, we're getting very excited at the Daily Politics about

:51:55.:52:00.

everything going on in Europe. Last minute transfer of the Greek right

:52:00.:52:08.

wing, Germany giving nothing away. -- and plucky England planning

:52:08.:52:11.

their own furrow and just about staying in the game. I'm not

:52:12.:52:18.

talking about the euro crisis, I am talking about Euro 2012. I am told

:52:18.:52:23.

it is a football tournament. Who will win? Can Greece beat back the

:52:23.:52:33.
:52:33.:52:39.

Germans? Who better to ask than football-mad MPs? Occasionally talk

:52:39.:52:44.

does slip towards Euro 2012. We are interested in both. There is a

:52:44.:52:48.

danger that both will end in tears. Expectations are raised. Things

:52:48.:52:55.

seem to be on the way up and dashed at the last moment. I think

:52:55.:53:02.

everybody wants Greece to win. I am told Greece will only play if they

:53:02.:53:06.

played against the German reserves. I would like Greece to win but I

:53:06.:53:11.

expect Germany will win. If they win and we when we will play them.

:53:11.:53:19.

Maybe they should decide the bail out conditions. I would like to

:53:19.:53:22.

think they would drop out of the euro's first but I have a sneaking

:53:22.:53:27.

suspicion that, if Italy do well, it will be a winning goal by Mario

:53:27.:53:33.

Balatelli. Days are numbered to just a couple. Let's get behind the

:53:33.:53:40.

lads. It is looking good. By God, the country needs a left! It is

:53:40.:53:50.
:53:50.:53:50.

quite clear it will be the euro, any time soon. No is the straight

:53:50.:53:55.

answer. I think we have done pretty well so far. We might beat Italy

:53:55.:54:00.

but I think we will probably get knocked out by the Germans. First

:54:00.:54:05.

of all we are unlucky side. I think we will be the only financially

:54:05.:54:09.

sound country come the final and we will win because of that. They can

:54:09.:54:16.

but we must not get carried away. We will take each game as it comes.

:54:16.:54:20.

They have benefited from the lack of hype and the rest of it. They

:54:20.:54:30.
:54:30.:54:31.

can go all the way. Can England win? If they do, or will it mean a

:54:31.:54:41.
:54:41.:54:41.

feel-good factor and sweep the nation? Welcome to both of you.

:54:41.:54:45.

What do you think? I think it has been a good performance, better

:54:45.:54:51.

than expected so far. Will have to wait and see what happens at the

:54:51.:54:53.

weekend. Better than expected because everyone had low

:54:53.:54:58.

expectations. I have watched these matches. They are not brilliant.

:54:58.:55:03.

They have got through, which is fantastic. Data not shown a great

:55:03.:55:08.

sense of brilliance. We have had better England teams in the past. -

:55:08.:55:13.

- they have not shown. We will will them on to win at the next game on

:55:13.:55:17.

Sunday. What chances to they have of reaching the final? We have to

:55:17.:55:23.

get past Sunday and probably get past the Germans. Let's see what

:55:23.:55:27.

happens. Jeremy Browne asked about the consistency of policy in terms

:55:27.:55:33.

of ministers going to watch matches in the Ukraine. Do you think they

:55:33.:55:38.

should go if England reaches the final? I'm not sure they should go.

:55:38.:55:44.

I take the position that, if you send a minister and they lose, they

:55:44.:55:49.

could Jinks the team. I am the superstitious football fan. Maybe

:55:49.:55:55.

we will just leave it. Next come on to the issue of effect on the

:55:55.:56:02.

country and politics. -- next, to the issue. In terms of political

:56:02.:56:10.

boost, it is hogwash. There is no evidence this has evidence on

:56:10.:56:14.

people's political views. What is more significant is the state of

:56:14.:56:19.

the weather. In the brief summer we had last month, the month before,

:56:19.:56:24.

we had the slight blip in people's economic confidence and in a

:56:24.:56:29.

general attitudes towards life. not football? Not football. What

:56:29.:56:34.

about if they reach the final? With that whip up a bit of national

:56:34.:56:41.

fervour? You can go back to 1966. I cannot remember the time what the

:56:42.:56:46.

national mood was like. Going back and consulting the polling digests,

:56:46.:56:52.

there was no discernible impact, even though we won it in London on

:56:52.:56:57.

up own territory. On the tournament like this, possibly in the World

:56:57.:57:01.

Cup, they might be an impact that last a week or so that nothing more

:57:01.:57:09.

enduring than that. 1966 is a myth. The election took place 17 weeks

:57:09.:57:14.

before the World Cup finals. polling numbers at the time, month-

:57:15.:57:23.

by-month by month... In 1970, Harold Wilson lost unexpectedly --

:57:23.:57:30.

unexpectedly took Ted Heath. We to say there is no correlation between

:57:30.:57:36.

Wilson losing an inspection -- an election he is expected to win and

:57:36.:57:42.

England being lost out? I remember watching the World Cup in 1970. I

:57:42.:57:48.

had to get my grandfather's house because he had the colour

:57:48.:57:51.

television. -- to go to my grandfather's house. I do not think

:57:51.:57:57.

there is the same access to the Games as there is today. I think it

:57:57.:58:04.

is very easy. Do you think the Government might hope for a bit of

:58:04.:58:11.

a lift from the football? I agree with Andrew. Football is the big

:58:11.:58:17.

mass sport for the nation. I do not think a team's result has much to

:58:17.:58:22.

an impact on the political situation. Harold Wilson blamed it

:58:22.:58:28.

on a consignment of two jumbo jets and diamonds into Hatton Garden

:58:28.:58:35.

which changed trade figures. Not football! England any wins the

:58:35.:58:41.

World Cup when Labour was in power. That is his gag. That is

:58:41.:58:45.

irrefutable. Thank you for being a guest of the day. Thank you to all

:58:45.:58:51.

Andrew Neil and Jo Coburn with the latest political news, interviews and debate, including plans to scrap GCSEs and the doctors' industrial action. With health minister Simon Burns and Foreign Office minister Jeremy Browne.


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