26/06/2012 Daily Politics


26/06/2012

Political news and interviews. Jo Coburn is joined by US schools campaigner Michelle Rhee, and Liberal Democrat Tim Farron and Conservative MP Simon Hart debate Lords reform.


Similar Content

Browse content similar to 26/06/2012. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

Good morning and welcome to the Tom Daley -- Daily Politics. Can Nick

:00:44.:00:46.

Clegg convince his coalition partners that reforming the House

:00:46.:00:50.

of Lords is a good idea? The Cabinet have heard his proposals

:00:50.:00:52.

this morning and the bill will be published tomorrow. The Government

:00:52.:00:57.

says they will be working to win round potential rebels but will it

:00:57.:01:01.

be enough? The Queen makes history in Northern Ireland. The crowds are

:01:01.:01:05.

waiting for her to arrive on a two day visit, in which she will shake

:01:05.:01:08.

hands with former IRA leader Martin McGuinness. We will talk to

:01:08.:01:13.

politicians in Belfast and London. Can this woman teach Michael Gove a

:01:13.:01:18.

thing or two about improving schools? She has attract publicity

:01:18.:01:23.

in America with her controversial methods. She has even been on the

:01:23.:01:29.

Oprah Winfrey Show. She has closed dozens of schools and fired over

:01:29.:01:34.

1,000 teachers and principles, including the one at her own

:01:34.:01:41.

children's school. All that in the next half an hour, with us as you

:01:41.:01:46.

saw there is Michelle Rhee, she ran the school system in Washington DC

:01:46.:01:49.

and runs an organisation which works to improve schools across the

:01:49.:01:53.

US. Welcome to the programme. First the Oprah Winfrey Show, now the

:01:53.:01:57.

Daily Politics, what more can you ask for? Nothing. Good. What brings

:01:57.:02:01.

you here? Well, I have been interested to see what is happening

:02:01.:02:06.

here in the UK, on education reform. I think the country is heading in

:02:06.:02:09.

the right direction, I know that some of the reforms that are

:02:10.:02:14.

happening are difficult and you know, cause opposition, but I think

:02:14.:02:18.

the secretary Gove is heading in the right direction. Here to learn

:02:18.:02:22.

and share whatever experiences that I had in DC that might be relevant

:02:22.:02:27.

to what is happening. And you met Michael Gove yesterday. Yes.

:02:27.:02:30.

will see that later in the programme. An NHS trust has been

:02:30.:02:33.

warned by the Government that it could be allowed to go bust in the

:02:33.:02:38.

first case of its kind. South London ehealthcare has been losing

:02:38.:02:43.

up to �1 million a week. The Government is going to bring in a

:02:43.:02:46.

special administrator to put the trust on a sound footing. Let us

:02:46.:02:50.

speak to our political correspondent Norman Smith. Why has

:02:50.:02:54.

the trust gone bust? Because it is running out of money and can't

:02:54.:02:59.

balance the books. The argument is over why it can't. We have got into

:02:59.:03:02.

a political blame game with the Government saying the problem is

:03:03.:03:09.

the PFI it signed up to build two new hospital, those contracts are

:03:09.:03:14.

unaffordable, something like �2.5 billion. Labour say it is not the

:03:14.:03:18.

PFI that is the problem it is Andrew Lansley health reforms and

:03:18.:03:21.

the fact he botch add reconfiguration of that particular

:03:21.:03:25.

trust. We are into a stand off between Labour and the

:03:25.:03:28.

Conservatives over why it can't balance the book, but the the

:03:28.:03:31.

bottom line is, you and I are probably going to have to bail it

:03:31.:03:35.

out in one way or the other. The thinking is an administrator will

:03:35.:03:39.

try and draw up a plan to ensure the trust can continue, but the

:03:39.:03:44.

bill for the PFI in all probability will be passed over to the taxpayer

:03:44.:03:47.

and we will have to pick it up. well as that, what happens to the

:03:47.:03:51.

three hospitals? What happens to patients at the hospitals? Very

:03:51.:03:56.

interesting. If you talk to figure like the former health secretary he

:03:56.:04:00.

says this is an opportunity to look at how the Health Service is

:04:00.:04:04.

configured in that part of London. Do they need three hospitals? You

:04:04.:04:10.

talk to the Health Minister and they say it is far too premature.

:04:10.:04:13.

Health professional, secretary, there is a view we have too many

:04:13.:04:17.

hospitals and people have to get off being so attacheded to bricks

:04:17.:04:21.

and mortar and think about services. What will be interesting is whether

:04:21.:04:25.

in drawing up a revises plan the administrator concludes, you know

:04:25.:04:29.

what, we could do things better, we don't necessarily need three

:04:29.:04:34.

hospitals. Politically though, hugely, hugely difficult to close a

:04:34.:04:38.

hospital. As always has been, thank yo you. She sacked one thousand

:04:38.:04:43.

teacher, closed more than 30 schools and got rid two of thirds

:04:43.:04:48.

of the heads under her control? Why, to drive up standard in one of the

:04:48.:04:54.

worst performing school districts in the US. Michael Gove described

:04:54.:05:00.

her as his hero. She is re-and our guest of the day. Her methods are

:05:00.:05:03.

controversial but do they work and could we see them being employed

:05:03.:05:10.

here. We sent our reporter to meet her. This is a warrior woman, she

:05:10.:05:15.

is a warrior woman. Not many school reformers get to rub shoulders with

:05:15.:05:20.

the A-listers be this the re-and in the State she is a big deal. This

:05:20.:05:25.

is Michelle Rhee in action, dealing with a head teacher she reckons

:05:25.:05:28.

isn't cutting the mustard. I don't believe you are going to be the

:05:28.:05:31.

leader who is go to take this school in the direction we need it

:05:31.:05:36.

to go in and have the highest expectations, aim terminating your

:05:36.:05:41.

principal ship now. This is Michelle Rhee, in Lambeth. She is

:05:41.:05:45.

feisty, controversial, and she is over here. The system for driving

:05:45.:05:50.

up standards is simple. Test whether kids are improving. Test

:05:50.:05:54.

teachers, reward the good with higher salaries. She made her name

:05:54.:05:58.

in Washington, the worst performing district of the US when she took

:05:58.:06:02.

over in 2007. In three years, Michelle Rhee closed more than 30

:06:02.:06:07.

schools, sacked round a thousand teacher, and got rid of nearly 100

:06:07.:06:11.

heads, including the one at her daughter's school. In America, both

:06:11.:06:15.

the republicans and the Democrats like her and she has a big fan over

:06:15.:06:21.

here. In the most important city in the world, she was the most

:06:21.:06:24.

important woman. To me the most important thing is what is in the

:06:24.:06:27.

interests of children. Michelle points out in everything she does,

:06:27.:06:33.

that what they need is the most effective teachers, who demands the

:06:33.:06:37.

highest standards and is relentless about that. The schools which are

:06:37.:06:44.

poor have children from the poorest community, so if we need to achieve

:06:44.:06:48.

social justice we need to transform the school, to make sure the

:06:48.:06:51.

teachers who are not doing a good job move on and we support the

:06:51.:06:55.

teachers who are doing a good job by paying them more and giving them

:06:55.:07:00.

freedom to inspire. Put simply Michelle Rhee analyses whether

:07:00.:07:03.

pupils' result improve over a period of time. If they do top

:07:03.:07:07.

marks to teacher and more pay. If they don't, I think you know the

:07:07.:07:11.

answer to that. Michelle Rhee's critic says test scores aren't

:07:11.:07:16.

everything and an unfair way of deciding who to hire and fire. She

:07:17.:07:19.

has clashed with the American teaching union, you can't imagine

:07:20.:07:24.

them loving her over here. Results did improve making the largest gain

:07:24.:07:29.

in maths and reading in the whole of the US over a two-year period.

:07:29.:07:34.

She cut a deal with the unions, making it easier to hire and fire

:07:34.:07:40.

teachers N 2010 she resigned. She lost her political backing and some

:07:40.:07:45.

say she alienated many. Even though she went, Washington carried on

:07:45.:07:50.

with her project. She is now running student first, ans or which

:07:50.:07:55.

wants to use her method to drive up standards. Don't bet against seeing

:07:55.:07:59.

a lot more of her in English classrooms too. She is still here

:08:00.:08:05.

with us now. We are joined now by Mary Bousted, General Secretary of

:08:05.:08:11.

the association of teachers and lecturers which represents 160,000

:08:11.:08:14.

teachers. What is the key to radically improving educational

:08:14.:08:20.

standards in school, particularly those in poor areas? Well, the

:08:20.:08:26.

research is clear that the inschool factor that has the most impact on

:08:26.:08:30.

levels is the quality of teacher, and so we have to make sure that we

:08:30.:08:36.

have laws and policies in place, that are focused on teacher quality.

:08:36.:08:39.

We also believe that every family has to have lots of high quality

:08:39.:08:45.

options for schooling for their children. So families cannot ever

:08:45.:08:48.

feel like they are trapped in failing school. We have to give

:08:48.:08:52.

them options to choose from. How do you guarantee that teacher quality?

:08:53.:08:56.

You know, the vast majority of teachers that are out there are

:08:57.:09:00.

teaching for the right reasons, and we have to support teachers because

:09:00.:09:04.

they literally have the hardest job, I think, out there, but we also

:09:04.:09:07.

have to make sure they are doing right by kids, and so one of the

:09:07.:09:12.

things we think is most important is to evaluate teachers based on a

:09:12.:09:16.

rigorous evaluation model and tool, and we recognise and reward the

:09:16.:09:20.

most highly effect tiff teachers and for those who are not serving

:09:20.:09:24.

kids well with have to accelerate their practise to become better or

:09:24.:09:30.

move them out of the profession. You have sacked about 1,000 as we

:09:30.:09:34.

saw Yes, doing that is never easy or pleasant but it is something

:09:34.:09:38.

that is in the best interest of children. Do you agree with that?

:09:39.:09:43.

Well, if teachers could be evaluated in the way Michelle says

:09:43.:09:46.

simply to demonstrate quality in that way, that would be the Holy

:09:46.:09:49.

Grail of education systems but we have tried it and they can.

:09:49.:09:55.

Teaching is a complex job. Of course, the quality of teacher

:09:55.:10:02.

matters. We are a yuenn who have 4,000 courses doing MA course, we

:10:02.:10:07.

put 3,000 through train they need. We believe quality matters but you

:10:07.:10:10.

can't measure it in the way Michelle did in Washington?

:10:10.:10:16.

not? The way they did it was through test results as soon as you

:10:16.:10:21.

use standardised test what you get is teaching to the test, because

:10:21.:10:24.

for schools whether they the principal stays in the job for

:10:24.:10:29.

teacher, the test results are all, so you get routine overdrilling in

:10:29.:10:32.

the tests, in Washington, the results were questioned over a

:10:32.:10:37.

third of the schools in Washington, in 2008, there were complaints that

:10:37.:10:44.

the tests were not being admin stirstered properly. Wrong to right

:10:44.:10:49.

answers, or erasure, rubbing out answers so there has been huge

:10:49.:10:51.

controversy. First if you know anything about the evaluation

:10:52.:10:56.

system that we set up in Washington DC, part of the evaluation is based

:10:56.:11:00.

on growth and student achievement, which is a teacher's job to teach

:11:00.:11:04.

the children. What if they have to cheat? Let us answer the fist part.

:11:04.:11:09.

A lot of the eVal valuation is based on observation of classroom

:11:09.:11:12.

practise so we go in to the classroom, we watch what they are

:11:12.:11:16.

doing, how the teachers interact with children, that is how this

:11:16.:11:21.

they are evaluated. Another piece is how the school works as a team.

:11:21.:11:26.

The last component is what we call to contribution to school community.

:11:26.:11:30.

Nobody is advocating we look solely attest score, you have to look

:11:30.:11:34.

through multiple lenss to determine whether or not a teacher is

:11:34.:11:38.

effective. Number two the research is clear, that teachers who teach

:11:39.:11:44.

to the test actually don't, their kids don't do better academically.

:11:44.:11:50.

The kids who do the best on tests are the teachers who teach a broad

:11:50.:11:54.

base of skills, and you know critical thinking skills, so

:11:54.:11:58.

teachers who are paying attention to what works are never going to

:11:58.:12:05.

teach to the test. But in your reforms the poorest children, there

:12:05.:12:11.

was as big a gap between poor and rich as when you started. Is that

:12:11.:12:18.

true. When I inherited it we has a 70% gap between where the black

:12:18.:12:23.

students and white students were performing. I would love to say we

:12:23.:12:29.

could erace a decade gap. results improve? The results

:12:29.:12:33.

improved for every single sub group of children. We were the only

:12:33.:12:38.

jurisdiction in the country where every sub group of kids went up.

:12:39.:12:45.

There are research professors who cast severe doubt on what happened

:12:45.:12:49.

in that testing regime. There were accusations of cheating, they were

:12:49.:12:54.

not properly investigate ed. There were, and the latest investigation

:12:54.:12:59.

that happened showed that there were only two classrooms in which

:12:59.:13:02.

something went awry that people made the wrong decision the bottom

:13:02.:13:08.

line is I have a lot of faith in teachers. I believe as

:13:08.:13:12.

professionals the vast majority would never compromise their

:13:12.:13:15.

personal or professional integrity. So your faith in teaching means as

:13:15.:13:18.

the the chief executive of Washington you fake a TV camera in

:13:18.:13:22.

to film a principal being sacked. At that moment, when a teacher is

:13:23.:13:26.

going the ultimate humiliation you broadcast to the nation. That is

:13:26.:13:31.

your view of valuing and supporting teacher. You know what...

:13:31.:13:36.

continue you do it in private. did plenty in private. Here is the

:13:36.:13:40.

bottom line, that principal was not providing the teachers in that

:13:40.:13:45.

school with the leadership. lost her job, why broadcast it?

:13:45.:13:49.

Because it actually, it builds confidence in a lot of teachers to

:13:49.:13:53.

know I was listening to them, about the kinds of administrators that

:13:53.:13:59.

were in the building. It was an exercise in public humiliation.

:13:59.:14:04.

Isn't Isn't it difficult to sack teachers here? No. One of the main

:14:04.:14:08.

onjobs a union does is when a teacher can't make the grade, when

:14:08.:14:14.

they are exhausted or can't do it any more, we go in and we broker

:14:14.:14:18.

honourable compi exits for teacher, nobody wants a teacher who can't

:14:18.:14:25.

teach. Why have only 17 been sacked in the last decade. That is the

:14:25.:14:31.

number taken to the general teaching council that. Is the

:14:31.:14:35.

number who made it there. That is a wrong figure. Do you think the

:14:35.:14:39.

methods you have introduced could be introduced here, that what you

:14:39.:14:44.

describe as that much more rigorous looking at teachers and evaluating

:14:44.:14:48.

methods? I think every community has to determine what is going on,

:14:48.:14:53.

that is going to be relevant for them, but at the end of the day, do

:14:53.:14:58.

we need more rigorous evaluations? Absolutely. Teachers are tell you

:14:58.:15:02.

that the current system of evaluation is not working for them,

:15:02.:15:09.

it is not providing them... best way of raising standards was

:15:09.:15:12.

London Challenge, when the Local Authority went in to failing

:15:12.:15:19.

schools, partners them with good school, filled school vacancies and

:15:19.:15:24.

learned, they now outperform other schools. That is the way to raise

:15:24.:15:32.

The cabinet is meeting to discuss House of Lords reform today. As

:15:33.:15:36.

Nick Clegg tries to get one of the Liberal Democrats flagship policies

:15:36.:15:43.

on the statute book. Under proposals, the 450 members will

:15:43.:15:47.

serve a single term of 15 years. 80% will be elected and 20% will be

:15:47.:15:52.

appointed. There are number of concerns over the proposals. Some

:15:52.:15:56.

Conservative backbenchers via the newly elected second chamber could

:15:56.:16:04.

And damage the primacy of the Commons. The government has said a

:16:04.:16:08.

cause will be reinserted to -- will be inserted to reassert the power

:16:08.:16:12.

of the Commons. It was revealed that members would earn �300 for

:16:12.:16:16.

every day they attend, considerably less than MPs receive. And members

:16:16.:16:20.

would continue to have outside interests and jobs. There are a lot

:16:20.:16:24.

of raw politics involved. Bernard Jenkin, senior Conservative

:16:24.:16:29.

backbencher, has threatened a war of attrition, because of the

:16:29.:16:32.

failure of Jeremy Hunt -- of the limit -- because of a failure of

:16:32.:16:37.

the Lib Dems to support Jeremy Hunt. And the Labour Party has yet to

:16:37.:16:41.

decide whether it will support the plans. With us is that the Democrat

:16:41.:16:45.

President Tim Farron, and Conservative MP Simon Hart. Simon

:16:45.:16:49.

Hart, it was in the coalition agreement and in your own manifesto,

:16:49.:16:54.

why don't you support it? It wasn't, to be honest. There was a fleeting

:16:54.:16:58.

reference to finding some consensus on the issue before we tended to

:16:58.:17:05.

anything meaningful. -- turned it into anything. The basis of

:17:05.:17:09.

consensus has been achieved within our own party, let alone the

:17:09.:17:14.

coalition or parliament. I am hugely reluctant and sad to be in

:17:14.:17:17.

this position. With everything else that is going on, this is going to

:17:17.:17:21.

cost about half a billion pounds, it is going to use up a lot of time.

:17:21.:17:24.

For those people who wonder if the MPs are in touch with the realities

:17:24.:17:28.

of life in a recession, they will look at this and think, what on

:17:28.:17:32.

earth are these people doing? Shouldn't they be fixing the

:17:32.:17:36.

economy? Instead we are talking about something that doesn't mean

:17:36.:17:40.

much to my constituents in west Wales. Your main objection is the

:17:40.:17:43.

cost and the timing, what about the principle of having an elected

:17:43.:17:48.

House of Lords, what is wrong with that? I could go on for half an

:17:48.:17:54.

hour about my objections. At the moment, the House of Commons is

:17:54.:17:57.

accountable by recreating it in a different form down the corridor,

:17:57.:18:01.

paying a whole load of new MPs... This is going to cost five times

:18:01.:18:05.

the original cost and it is not going to prove anything. Even Nick

:18:05.:18:10.

Clegg says it is not important. Persuade Simon Hart. We have had

:18:10.:18:14.

100 years of excuses as to why we won't reform the House of Lords.

:18:14.:18:18.

There is always a good excuse not to do it. This doesn't need to take

:18:18.:18:22.

a lot of time. All three parties effectively do have this in their

:18:22.:18:26.

manifesto. There is a sense that there is a mandate to change the

:18:26.:18:29.

House of Lords. I agree with Simon, if I go on the streets of Kendal,

:18:29.:18:33.

this is not been number-one issue. But neither is it an issue that

:18:33.:18:37.

ought to be dropped, just because it is not wisely important to

:18:37.:18:41.

everybody out there. -- vastly important. Having a democracy which

:18:41.:18:47.

takes account of what people think, rather than unaccountable people in

:18:47.:18:49.

the House of Lords, is surely something we should have moved on

:18:49.:18:55.

from. I am not against Lords reform, I would go along with Tim in most

:18:55.:18:59.

of the things. The only thing I don't like the idea is an elected

:18:59.:19:04.

House of Lords. That is the key, isn't it? What we lose is the

:19:04.:19:08.

objectivity, the experience, the expertise, all the things which can,

:19:08.:19:12.

in an elected House, but recreating a mirror image of the Commons,

:19:12.:19:15.

which is going to be expensive and not going to deliver anything

:19:15.:19:23.

better for the country, seems to be inappropriate. I would love to join

:19:23.:19:26.

the Liberal Democrats in some common reforms. I am not sure what

:19:26.:19:31.

those would be forced retirement age, reducing the size of the house.

:19:31.:19:37.

You are not going to get Tories like Simon Hart on board, are you

:19:38.:19:43.

kissing goodbye to this? No. My view is if you look at the House of

:19:43.:19:46.

Lords as it is now, it is indefensible. It works well,

:19:46.:19:52.

doesn't it? Does it really? You have Blue State Digital -- where

:19:52.:19:56.

Greek Shirley Williams you have or five to turn up, get their money

:19:56.:20:03.

and go home -- for every Shirley It is something that I think people

:20:03.:20:07.

feel ought to be changed. The fact that there are people who disagree

:20:07.:20:11.

with Lords reform is hardly a surprise, but it is important, from

:20:11.:20:14.

David Cameron's point of view, that he delivers his part of the bargain.

:20:14.:20:18.

I voted for elected police commissioners, which frankly I

:20:18.:20:21.

don't think is a smart idea, but it was part of the Conservative

:20:21.:20:27.

agreement, the Conservatives wanted it, it is important. You need to

:20:27.:20:31.

keep to your part of the bargain. Playing bargaining chips with the

:20:31.:20:35.

constitution... The coalition might last two-and-a-half years, that is

:20:35.:20:40.

what we are talking about. We are about to put at risk several

:20:40.:20:43.

hundred years of pretty carefully crafted constitution, for the sake

:20:43.:20:46.

of the relationship between David Cameron and Nick Clegg. That is not

:20:47.:20:50.

responsible, let alone all of the other arguments. What we are

:20:50.:20:54.

putting at risk is an unbelievably undemocratic institution. The idea

:20:54.:20:58.

that half of our Parliament is they're not really by birth,

:20:58.:21:02.

probably worse than that, by patronage. If you have done a

:21:02.:21:05.

favour or you think you are owed one by the party leader, you are in

:21:05.:21:09.

the Lords. There are some wonderful people in there but it is an

:21:09.:21:13.

important -- appalling system of institutionalised corruption.

:21:13.:21:18.

wince at that and I don't think that is... Nick Clegg himself says

:21:18.:21:22.

that the House of Lords functions perfectly well and is full of good

:21:22.:21:28.

people. The idea of democratising the house, it makes the assumption

:21:28.:21:31.

that that would improve things. We have spent far too much time

:21:31.:21:34.

worrying about what the House of Lords should look like and not

:21:34.:21:38.

worrying anything like enough about what it should do. We should be

:21:38.:21:42.

working out what we want a second chamber to do, then we should

:21:42.:21:46.

decide how it should look. One of the big problems is about the

:21:46.:21:50.

primacy of the House of Commons and there are genuine concerns that it

:21:50.:21:54.

is another House of Commons. good folks of Kendal and Windermere

:21:54.:21:58.

don't give a stuff about that either, but they like the idea of

:21:58.:22:01.

the House of Lords being accountable to them. The only

:22:01.:22:03.

reason the House of Lords is seen as being fairly powerless is

:22:04.:22:08.

because it has lost its legitimacy, because it isn't elected. Listening

:22:09.:22:13.

to this, do you see the potential problems, that having two elected

:22:13.:22:18.

houses can be a recipe for conflict? Speaking as an American,

:22:18.:22:24.

we have a bicameral elective legislator, I think it provides

:22:24.:22:29.

checks and balances -- legislature. I wouldn't want anyone to think

:22:29.:22:32.

that by having two elected offices, it means all the problems are

:22:32.:22:36.

solved. In America we're having lots of problems that have to do

:22:36.:22:42.

with partisan politics, as opposed to how many of the house is our

:22:42.:22:46.

elected or not. Pieces of it worked well in America, but some problems

:22:46.:22:54.

will be there. Regardless. The tizz not a panacea, Chedjou once said

:22:54.:22:58.

democracy is dreadful until you consider the alternatives. --

:22:58.:23:04.

Churchill once said. Thank you. The Northern Ireland peace process

:23:04.:23:08.

has had its fair share of historic events and tomorrow, we will get

:23:08.:23:12.

another, when the Queen shake hands with Martin McGuinness, former IRA

:23:12.:23:15.

leader and now a Northern Ireland's Deputy First Minister. The crowds

:23:15.:23:21.

are waiting for the Queen in the town of Enniskillen, where the

:23:21.:23:25.

Queen is due to arrive shortly for the start of a two day trip. She is

:23:25.:23:28.

due to attend a thanksgiving service in the town and tomorrow

:23:28.:23:33.

she will meet Mr McGuinness at an arts event in Belfast. Joining me

:23:33.:23:37.

from Belfast is the Sinn Fein MP and Northern Ireland Assembly

:23:37.:23:41.

Member, Conor Murphy, and we have former Northern Ireland Secretary

:23:41.:23:46.

Peter Hayne with us. Conor Murphy, how significant is the meeting of

:23:46.:23:52.

Martin McGuinness and the Queen? is very significant. It presents an

:23:52.:23:59.

opportunity to further the conciliation on Northern Ireland,

:23:59.:24:05.

those with an affinity to the Royal Family and the rest of us. And for

:24:05.:24:11.

the two Islands to contribute to the idea of reconciliation. It

:24:11.:24:15.

helps us and move forward to a much more positive place and in that

:24:15.:24:22.

regard I think it is significant. Are you welcoming the Queen as a

:24:22.:24:26.

foreign head of state? There are different views. My allegiance is

:24:26.:24:32.

to the Irish Republic, not to the United Kingdom or any monarch

:24:33.:24:36.

battle -- at all. There are different views. The fact that the

:24:36.:24:40.

event is organised in such a way that includes the Irish President,

:24:40.:24:44.

the first and Deputy First Minister and the Queen, recognises that this

:24:44.:24:48.

place is a contested area, contested space, there are

:24:48.:24:51.

differing political allegiances here. I think it is sensitive to

:24:51.:24:54.

that. The way the event is organised and the fact that Martin

:24:54.:25:00.

McGuinness will be meeting and greeting the Queen lends itself to

:25:00.:25:04.

the idea we have different allegiances but we are able to

:25:04.:25:09.

reconcile amongst ourselves how weak resolve those differences.

:25:09.:25:14.

Conor Murphy says it is a significant make but clear to make

:25:14.:25:17.

a difference in his views to the Queen coming over to Northern

:25:17.:25:21.

Ireland and what she represents. How far do you think Sinn Fein has

:25:21.:25:26.

moved? What is interesting and significant, Conor Murphy spoke

:25:26.:25:29.

prematurely and that is the view of Sinn Fein. They have not moved one

:25:29.:25:32.

inch from their commitment to the united Ireland, their republican

:25:32.:25:36.

views, he has expressed it articulately. They are saying that

:25:36.:25:39.

not island is in a different place from where it was -- Northern

:25:39.:25:43.

Ireland is in. The police settlement of 2007 moved things on

:25:44.:25:48.

and this is about showing respect and continuing to move on, and to

:25:48.:25:53.

try to heal the conflict and the torn bitterness and evil and horror

:25:53.:25:58.

that has gone back for a very long time, and the troubled relationship

:25:58.:26:04.

between Britain and Ireland. won't be easy for the Queen,

:26:04.:26:06.

meeting Martin McGuinness, shaking his hand. Her cousin, Lord

:26:06.:26:11.

Mountbatten, was killed by the IRA. What has gone into this meeting and

:26:11.:26:16.

gesture? It will be very difficult for the Queen. For precisely the

:26:16.:26:19.

reasons you say. It is equally difficult for Martin McGuinness and

:26:19.:26:23.

his Republican followers. The history is of victims on all sides

:26:23.:26:28.

of this conflict. And what they have done is to look to the future,

:26:28.:26:34.

not to the past, and said, where we want to go is to build confidence,

:26:34.:26:38.

build relationships and move forward. That is what is important,

:26:38.:26:41.

but it will be very difficult. Conor Murphy, is there a sense that

:26:41.:26:45.

you and your colleagues were wrong- footed last year by boycotting the

:26:45.:26:49.

Queen's visit to Ireland? Because it was deemed very popular, she

:26:49.:26:55.

spoke a few words of Irish and was welcomed by Mary McAleese, who said

:26:55.:26:59.

wow at the time, and you were not there. The Queen's visit to the

:26:59.:27:02.

south last year was about reconciliation between the Irish

:27:02.:27:05.

state and the British state. That was the first visit of a British

:27:05.:27:10.

monarch in over 100 years. We did recognise that there were important

:27:10.:27:15.

element to that visit. The attendance of the gardens of

:27:15.:27:18.

remembrance, the honouring of those who had resisted British rule in

:27:18.:27:21.

Northern Ireland, the speech and the commentary that the Queen made

:27:21.:27:25.

in relation to the role of the British state in Northern Ireland,

:27:25.:27:29.

all of those were important. We felt at that time, as incorrectly,

:27:29.:27:33.

that it was an issue about reconciliation between the state in

:27:33.:27:37.

Ireland and the British state. This is about reconciliation in the

:27:38.:27:42.

north and the people in the North, and between the two countries as

:27:42.:27:46.

well. It is important and significant that Martin makes this

:27:46.:27:49.

initiative tomorrow, and contributes to the reconciliation

:27:49.:27:55.

process. What about your community? There will always be parts who do

:27:55.:27:58.

not support this. How difficult has that been, has the representation

:27:58.:28:03.

been made forcefully to you? Yes, absolutely and it has caused a

:28:03.:28:09.

difficult debate. Martin McGuinness is from Derry, the British

:28:09.:28:14.

paratroopers shot dead on Monday -- Bloody Sunday. There are issues to

:28:14.:28:18.

deal with in terms of the legacy of the conflict. We have to balance

:28:18.:28:21.

those against the positive contribution that such an

:28:21.:28:24.

engagement can have and on balance, it is more important that we do

:28:24.:28:30.

this and continued to move Reconciliation on the island of

:28:30.:28:37.

Ireland and the two nations. husband is a politician in the

:28:37.:28:41.

States and you have to know that things are always changing, you

:28:41.:28:47.

cannot set rules and a lie with certain people. You have to be

:28:47.:28:51.

Jo Coburn with the latest politics news and interviews, including US schools campaigner Michelle Rhee, plus Liberal Democrat president Tim Farron and Conservative MP Simon Hart debate Lords reform.


Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS