26/06/2012 Daily Politics

Good morning and welcome to the Tom Daley -- Daily Politics. Can Nick

Clegg convince his coalition partners that reforming the House

of Lords is a good idea? The Cabinet have heard his proposals

this morning and the bill will be published tomorrow. The Government

says they will be working to win round potential rebels but will it

be enough? The Queen makes history in Northern Ireland. The crowds are

waiting for her to arrive on a two day visit, in which she will shake

hands with former IRA leader Martin McGuinness. We will talk to

politicians in Belfast and London. Can this woman teach Michael Gove a

thing or two about improving schools? She has attract publicity

in America with her controversial methods. She has even been on the

Oprah Winfrey Show. She has closed dozens of schools and fired over

1,000 teachers and principles, including the one at her own

children's school. All that in the next half an hour, with us as you

saw there is Michelle Rhee, she ran the school system in Washington DC

and runs an organisation which works to improve schools across the

US. Welcome to the programme. First the Oprah Winfrey Show, now the

Daily Politics, what more can you ask for? Nothing. Good. What brings

you here? Well, I have been interested to see what is happening

here in the UK, on education reform. I think the country is heading in

the right direction, I know that some of the reforms that are

happening are difficult and you know, cause opposition, but I think

the secretary Gove is heading in the right direction. Here to learn

and share whatever experiences that I had in DC that might be relevant

to what is happening. And you met Michael Gove yesterday. Yes.

will see that later in the programme. An NHS trust has been

warned by the Government that it could be allowed to go bust in the

first case of its kind. South London ehealthcare has been losing

up to �1 million a week. The Government is going to bring in a

special administrator to put the trust on a sound footing. Let us

speak to our political correspondent Norman Smith. Why has

the trust gone bust? Because it is running out of money and can't

balance the books. The argument is over why it can't. We have got into

a political blame game with the Government saying the problem is

the PFI it signed up to build two new hospital, those contracts are

unaffordable, something like �2.5 billion. Labour say it is not the

PFI that is the problem it is Andrew Lansley health reforms and

the fact he botch add reconfiguration of that particular

trust. We are into a stand off between Labour and the

Conservatives over why it can't balance the book, but the the

bottom line is, you and I are probably going to have to bail it

out in one way or the other. The thinking is an administrator will

try and draw up a plan to ensure the trust can continue, but the

bill for the PFI in all probability will be passed over to the taxpayer

and we will have to pick it up. well as that, what happens to the

three hospitals? What happens to patients at the hospitals? Very

interesting. If you talk to figure like the former health secretary he

says this is an opportunity to look at how the Health Service is

configured in that part of London. Do they need three hospitals? You

talk to the Health Minister and they say it is far too premature.

Health professional, secretary, there is a view we have too many

hospitals and people have to get off being so attacheded to bricks

and mortar and think about services. What will be interesting is whether

in drawing up a revises plan the administrator concludes, you know

what, we could do things better, we don't necessarily need three

hospitals. Politically though, hugely, hugely difficult to close a

hospital. As always has been, thank yo you. She sacked one thousand

teacher, closed more than 30 schools and got rid two of thirds

of the heads under her control? Why, to drive up standard in one of the

worst performing school districts in the US. Michael Gove described

her as his hero. She is re-and our guest of the day. Her methods are

controversial but do they work and could we see them being employed

here. We sent our reporter to meet her. This is a warrior woman, she

is a warrior woman. Not many school reformers get to rub shoulders with

the A-listers be this the re-and in the State she is a big deal. This

is Michelle Rhee in action, dealing with a head teacher she reckons

isn't cutting the mustard. I don't believe you are going to be the

leader who is go to take this school in the direction we need it

to go in and have the highest expectations, aim terminating your

principal ship now. This is Michelle Rhee, in Lambeth. She is

feisty, controversial, and she is over here. The system for driving

up standards is simple. Test whether kids are improving. Test

teachers, reward the good with higher salaries. She made her name

in Washington, the worst performing district of the US when she took

over in 2007. In three years, Michelle Rhee closed more than 30

schools, sacked round a thousand teacher, and got rid of nearly 100

heads, including the one at her daughter's school. In America, both

the republicans and the Democrats like her and she has a big fan over

here. In the most important city in the world, she was the most

important woman. To me the most important thing is what is in the

interests of children. Michelle points out in everything she does,

that what they need is the most effective teachers, who demands the

highest standards and is relentless about that. The schools which are

poor have children from the poorest community, so if we need to achieve

social justice we need to transform the school, to make sure the

teachers who are not doing a good job move on and we support the

teachers who are doing a good job by paying them more and giving them

freedom to inspire. Put simply Michelle Rhee analyses whether

pupils' result improve over a period of time. If they do top

marks to teacher and more pay. If they don't, I think you know the

answer to that. Michelle Rhee's critic says test scores aren't

everything and an unfair way of deciding who to hire and fire. She

has clashed with the American teaching union, you can't imagine

them loving her over here. Results did improve making the largest gain

in maths and reading in the whole of the US over a two-year period.

She cut a deal with the unions, making it easier to hire and fire

teachers N 2010 she resigned. She lost her political backing and some

say she alienated many. Even though she went, Washington carried on

with her project. She is now running student first, ans or which

wants to use her method to drive up standards. Don't bet against seeing

a lot more of her in English classrooms too. She is still here

with us now. We are joined now by Mary Bousted, General Secretary of

the association of teachers and lecturers which represents 160,000

teachers. What is the key to radically improving educational

standards in school, particularly those in poor areas? Well, the

research is clear that the inschool factor that has the most impact on

levels is the quality of teacher, and so we have to make sure that we

have laws and policies in place, that are focused on teacher quality.

We also believe that every family has to have lots of high quality

options for schooling for their children. So families cannot ever

feel like they are trapped in failing school. We have to give

them options to choose from. How do you guarantee that teacher quality?

You know, the vast majority of teachers that are out there are

teaching for the right reasons, and we have to support teachers because

they literally have the hardest job, I think, out there, but we also

have to make sure they are doing right by kids, and so one of the

things we think is most important is to evaluate teachers based on a

rigorous evaluation model and tool, and we recognise and reward the

most highly effect tiff teachers and for those who are not serving

kids well with have to accelerate their practise to become better or

move them out of the profession. You have sacked about 1,000 as we

saw Yes, doing that is never easy or pleasant but it is something

that is in the best interest of children. Do you agree with that?

Well, if teachers could be evaluated in the way Michelle says

simply to demonstrate quality in that way, that would be the Holy

Grail of education systems but we have tried it and they can.

Teaching is a complex job. Of course, the quality of teacher

matters. We are a yuenn who have 4,000 courses doing MA course, we

put 3,000 through train they need. We believe quality matters but you

can't measure it in the way Michelle did in Washington?

not? The way they did it was through test results as soon as you

use standardised test what you get is teaching to the test, because

for schools whether they the principal stays in the job for

teacher, the test results are all, so you get routine overdrilling in

the tests, in Washington, the results were questioned over a

third of the schools in Washington, in 2008, there were complaints that

the tests were not being admin stirstered properly. Wrong to right

answers, or erasure, rubbing out answers so there has been huge

controversy. First if you know anything about the evaluation

system that we set up in Washington DC, part of the evaluation is based

on growth and student achievement, which is a teacher's job to teach

the children. What if they have to cheat? Let us answer the fist part.

A lot of the eVal valuation is based on observation of classroom

practise so we go in to the classroom, we watch what they are

doing, how the teachers interact with children, that is how this

they are evaluated. Another piece is how the school works as a team.

The last component is what we call to contribution to school community.

Nobody is advocating we look solely attest score, you have to look

through multiple lenss to determine whether or not a teacher is

effective. Number two the research is clear, that teachers who teach

to the test actually don't, their kids don't do better academically.

The kids who do the best on tests are the teachers who teach a broad

base of skills, and you know critical thinking skills, so

teachers who are paying attention to what works are never going to

teach to the test. But in your reforms the poorest children, there

was as big a gap between poor and rich as when you started. Is that

true. When I inherited it we has a 70% gap between where the black

students and white students were performing. I would love to say we

could erace a decade gap. results improve? The results

improved for every single sub group of children. We were the only

jurisdiction in the country where every sub group of kids went up.

There are research professors who cast severe doubt on what happened

in that testing regime. There were accusations of cheating, they were

not properly investigate ed. There were, and the latest investigation

that happened showed that there were only two classrooms in which

something went awry that people made the wrong decision the bottom

line is I have a lot of faith in teachers. I believe as

professionals the vast majority would never compromise their

personal or professional integrity. So your faith in teaching means as

the the chief executive of Washington you fake a TV camera in

to film a principal being sacked. At that moment, when a teacher is

going the ultimate humiliation you broadcast to the nation. That is

your view of valuing and supporting teacher. You know what...

continue you do it in private. did plenty in private. Here is the

bottom line, that principal was not providing the teachers in that

school with the leadership. lost her job, why broadcast it?

Because it actually, it builds confidence in a lot of teachers to

know I was listening to them, about the kinds of administrators that

were in the building. It was an exercise in public humiliation.

Isn't Isn't it difficult to sack teachers here? No. One of the main

onjobs a union does is when a teacher can't make the grade, when

they are exhausted or can't do it any more, we go in and we broker

honourable compi exits for teacher, nobody wants a teacher who can't

teach. Why have only 17 been sacked in the last decade. That is the

number taken to the general teaching council that. Is the

number who made it there. That is a wrong figure. Do you think the

methods you have introduced could be introduced here, that what you

describe as that much more rigorous looking at teachers and evaluating

methods? I think every community has to determine what is going on,

that is going to be relevant for them, but at the end of the day, do

we need more rigorous evaluations? Absolutely. Teachers are tell you

that the current system of evaluation is not working for them,

it is not providing them... best way of raising standards was

London Challenge, when the Local Authority went in to failing

schools, partners them with good school, filled school vacancies and

learned, they now outperform other schools. That is the way to raise

The cabinet is meeting to discuss House of Lords reform today. As

Nick Clegg tries to get one of the Liberal Democrats flagship policies

on the statute book. Under proposals, the 450 members will

serve a single term of 15 years. 80% will be elected and 20% will be

appointed. There are number of concerns over the proposals. Some

Conservative backbenchers via the newly elected second chamber could

And damage the primacy of the Commons. The government has said a

cause will be reinserted to -- will be inserted to reassert the power

of the Commons. It was revealed that members would earn �300 for

every day they attend, considerably less than MPs receive. And members

would continue to have outside interests and jobs. There are a lot

of raw politics involved. Bernard Jenkin, senior Conservative

backbencher, has threatened a war of attrition, because of the

failure of Jeremy Hunt -- of the limit -- because of a failure of

the Lib Dems to support Jeremy Hunt. And the Labour Party has yet to

decide whether it will support the plans. With us is that the Democrat

President Tim Farron, and Conservative MP Simon Hart. Simon

Hart, it was in the coalition agreement and in your own manifesto,

why don't you support it? It wasn't, to be honest. There was a fleeting

reference to finding some consensus on the issue before we tended to

anything meaningful. -- turned it into anything. The basis of

consensus has been achieved within our own party, let alone the

coalition or parliament. I am hugely reluctant and sad to be in

this position. With everything else that is going on, this is going to

cost about half a billion pounds, it is going to use up a lot of time.

For those people who wonder if the MPs are in touch with the realities

of life in a recession, they will look at this and think, what on

earth are these people doing? Shouldn't they be fixing the

economy? Instead we are talking about something that doesn't mean

much to my constituents in west Wales. Your main objection is the

cost and the timing, what about the principle of having an elected

House of Lords, what is wrong with that? I could go on for half an

hour about my objections. At the moment, the House of Commons is

accountable by recreating it in a different form down the corridor,

paying a whole load of new MPs... This is going to cost five times

the original cost and it is not going to prove anything. Even Nick

Clegg says it is not important. Persuade Simon Hart. We have had

100 years of excuses as to why we won't reform the House of Lords.

There is always a good excuse not to do it. This doesn't need to take

a lot of time. All three parties effectively do have this in their

manifesto. There is a sense that there is a mandate to change the

House of Lords. I agree with Simon, if I go on the streets of Kendal,

this is not been number-one issue. But neither is it an issue that

ought to be dropped, just because it is not wisely important to

everybody out there. -- vastly important. Having a democracy which

takes account of what people think, rather than unaccountable people in

the House of Lords, is surely something we should have moved on

from. I am not against Lords reform, I would go along with Tim in most

of the things. The only thing I don't like the idea is an elected

House of Lords. That is the key, isn't it? What we lose is the

objectivity, the experience, the expertise, all the things which can,

in an elected House, but recreating a mirror image of the Commons,

which is going to be expensive and not going to deliver anything

better for the country, seems to be inappropriate. I would love to join

the Liberal Democrats in some common reforms. I am not sure what

those would be forced retirement age, reducing the size of the house.

You are not going to get Tories like Simon Hart on board, are you

kissing goodbye to this? No. My view is if you look at the House of

Lords as it is now, it is indefensible. It works well,

doesn't it? Does it really? You have Blue State Digital -- where

Greek Shirley Williams you have or five to turn up, get their money

and go home -- for every Shirley It is something that I think people

feel ought to be changed. The fact that there are people who disagree

with Lords reform is hardly a surprise, but it is important, from

David Cameron's point of view, that he delivers his part of the bargain.

I voted for elected police commissioners, which frankly I

don't think is a smart idea, but it was part of the Conservative

agreement, the Conservatives wanted it, it is important. You need to

keep to your part of the bargain. Playing bargaining chips with the

constitution... The coalition might last two-and-a-half years, that is

what we are talking about. We are about to put at risk several

hundred years of pretty carefully crafted constitution, for the sake

of the relationship between David Cameron and Nick Clegg. That is not

responsible, let alone all of the other arguments. What we are

putting at risk is an unbelievably undemocratic institution. The idea

that half of our Parliament is they're not really by birth,

probably worse than that, by patronage. If you have done a

favour or you think you are owed one by the party leader, you are in

the Lords. There are some wonderful people in there but it is an

important -- appalling system of institutionalised corruption.

wince at that and I don't think that is... Nick Clegg himself says

that the House of Lords functions perfectly well and is full of good

people. The idea of democratising the house, it makes the assumption

that that would improve things. We have spent far too much time

worrying about what the House of Lords should look like and not

worrying anything like enough about what it should do. We should be

working out what we want a second chamber to do, then we should

decide how it should look. One of the big problems is about the

primacy of the House of Commons and there are genuine concerns that it

is another House of Commons. good folks of Kendal and Windermere

don't give a stuff about that either, but they like the idea of

the House of Lords being accountable to them. The only

reason the House of Lords is seen as being fairly powerless is

because it has lost its legitimacy, because it isn't elected. Listening

to this, do you see the potential problems, that having two elected

houses can be a recipe for conflict? Speaking as an American,

we have a bicameral elective legislator, I think it provides

checks and balances -- legislature. I wouldn't want anyone to think

that by having two elected offices, it means all the problems are

solved. In America we're having lots of problems that have to do

with partisan politics, as opposed to how many of the house is our

elected or not. Pieces of it worked well in America, but some problems

will be there. Regardless. The tizz not a panacea, Chedjou once said

democracy is dreadful until you consider the alternatives. --

Churchill once said. Thank you. The Northern Ireland peace process

has had its fair share of historic events and tomorrow, we will get

another, when the Queen shake hands with Martin McGuinness, former IRA

leader and now a Northern Ireland's Deputy First Minister. The crowds

are waiting for the Queen in the town of Enniskillen, where the

Queen is due to arrive shortly for the start of a two day trip. She is

due to attend a thanksgiving service in the town and tomorrow

she will meet Mr McGuinness at an arts event in Belfast. Joining me

from Belfast is the Sinn Fein MP and Northern Ireland Assembly

Member, Conor Murphy, and we have former Northern Ireland Secretary

Peter Hayne with us. Conor Murphy, how significant is the meeting of

Martin McGuinness and the Queen? is very significant. It presents an

opportunity to further the conciliation on Northern Ireland,

those with an affinity to the Royal Family and the rest of us. And for

the two Islands to contribute to the idea of reconciliation. It

helps us and move forward to a much more positive place and in that

regard I think it is significant. Are you welcoming the Queen as a

foreign head of state? There are different views. My allegiance is

to the Irish Republic, not to the United Kingdom or any monarch

battle -- at all. There are different views. The fact that the

event is organised in such a way that includes the Irish President,

the first and Deputy First Minister and the Queen, recognises that this

place is a contested area, contested space, there are

differing political allegiances here. I think it is sensitive to

that. The way the event is organised and the fact that Martin

McGuinness will be meeting and greeting the Queen lends itself to

the idea we have different allegiances but we are able to

reconcile amongst ourselves how weak resolve those differences.

Conor Murphy says it is a significant make but clear to make

a difference in his views to the Queen coming over to Northern

Ireland and what she represents. How far do you think Sinn Fein has

moved? What is interesting and significant, Conor Murphy spoke

prematurely and that is the view of Sinn Fein. They have not moved one

inch from their commitment to the united Ireland, their republican

views, he has expressed it articulately. They are saying that

not island is in a different place from where it was -- Northern

Ireland is in. The police settlement of 2007 moved things on

and this is about showing respect and continuing to move on, and to

try to heal the conflict and the torn bitterness and evil and horror

that has gone back for a very long time, and the troubled relationship

between Britain and Ireland. won't be easy for the Queen,

meeting Martin McGuinness, shaking his hand. Her cousin, Lord

Mountbatten, was killed by the IRA. What has gone into this meeting and

gesture? It will be very difficult for the Queen. For precisely the

reasons you say. It is equally difficult for Martin McGuinness and

his Republican followers. The history is of victims on all sides

of this conflict. And what they have done is to look to the future,

not to the past, and said, where we want to go is to build confidence,

build relationships and move forward. That is what is important,

but it will be very difficult. Conor Murphy, is there a sense that

you and your colleagues were wrong- footed last year by boycotting the

Queen's visit to Ireland? Because it was deemed very popular, she

spoke a few words of Irish and was welcomed by Mary McAleese, who said

wow at the time, and you were not there. The Queen's visit to the

south last year was about reconciliation between the Irish

state and the British state. That was the first visit of a British

monarch in over 100 years. We did recognise that there were important

element to that visit. The attendance of the gardens of

remembrance, the honouring of those who had resisted British rule in

Northern Ireland, the speech and the commentary that the Queen made

in relation to the role of the British state in Northern Ireland,

all of those were important. We felt at that time, as incorrectly,

that it was an issue about reconciliation between the state in

Ireland and the British state. This is about reconciliation in the

north and the people in the North, and between the two countries as

well. It is important and significant that Martin makes this

initiative tomorrow, and contributes to the reconciliation

process. What about your community? There will always be parts who do

not support this. How difficult has that been, has the representation

been made forcefully to you? Yes, absolutely and it has caused a

difficult debate. Martin McGuinness is from Derry, the British

paratroopers shot dead on Monday -- Bloody Sunday. There are issues to

deal with in terms of the legacy of the conflict. We have to balance

those against the positive contribution that such an

engagement can have and on balance, it is more important that we do

this and continued to move Reconciliation on the island of

Ireland and the two nations. husband is a politician in the

States and you have to know that things are always changing, you

cannot set rules and a lie with certain people. You have to be