27/06/2012 Daily Politics

A day for Nick Clegg as he unveiled his plans to reform the House of

Lords. Happy days. Scores of Tory MPs are plotting to scupper his

bill. George Osborne surprises everybody and postponed a three

pence rise in petrol duty. When did he change his mind and did his

colleagues know about the decision? Professor Brian Cox joins us to

argue for change in the libel laws. We debate whether Britain's private

schools should be abolished. They are a pox on society, abstract

social mobility and should be shut down -- they abstract.

All that to come before 1 o'clock and Prime Minister's Questions from

noon. With this work and Pensions Minister of Maria Millar and

Douglas Alexander. George Osborne postponed his three

pence increase in fuel duty and instead of owning headlines there

is just another budget U-turn to add to the existing shambles. Last

night in a difficult interview Chloe Smith, treasury minister,

struggled to deal with questions on when she was told about the

decision. He has been under consideration for

Tom -- possum had. When was the decision taken?

It has been under consideration for some time.

When were you told? I have been involved for some time.

He didn't take the decision, obviously. When were you told?

We had a collective discussion in due course, and although I cannot

give you the full details. Did it happen today? You can't

remember? You would hold some 10 today -- you were told sometime

today? Before lunch or after lunch? I cannot comment.

When we told? It has been under discussion for

some weeks. The Treasury minister Chloe Smith

discussing the decision to postpone the rise in fuel duty last night.

Maria Millar, she was facing a tough time, awkward questions.

you feel for her watching that? The important announcement was

families can look forward to having that August increase in fuel duty

put forward by the last Labour government delayed and it is

important. Recognising the fact that as a result of not taking

forward Labour's plans for increasing fuel, it is 10 pence a

litre less than it would have been an that recognises the difficult

situation. If it is such a difficult and

important policy announcement to have been made at the last minute

did you think a more senior member of the government should have been

dealing with media outlets? The Chancellor spoke to the House

of Commons and announced it as part of his questions, and entirely

appropriate way to do it. What Chloe Smith last night was doing

was trying to make sure that people understood the reasons for the

decision. She didn't really understand the

reasons. A up until lunchtime their text

messages from Tory whips to MPs saying hold the line, defend the

line, the duty rise will go ahead. Why did a change of heart come?

It is important the Chancellor makes those announcements. Usually

we got on programmes like this asking.

When did he change his mind? I am not privy to those

conversations. I think it is right it goes to the House of Commons.

You agreed the decision but do you think in terms of the way it was

handled if Tory MPs and Tory ministers, even Justine Greening

didn't know over the weekend, there is a change of heart within hours

before it is announced. The rise way to handle these things is look

at the effect it will have on families and making sure families

have got the money they need. It is important the government does

listen. It was a U-turn? A change of heart?

In the Budget you said you would, he said he would implement this

rise, it was your policy. Why did you change your mind?

The it is making sure we have got a policy.

What happened between April and now?

The policy announced yesterday reflects the current situation many

families face. We have friends in council tax, we have lifted -- we

have frozen council tax. We are recognising the situation.

It has got worse and your government.

But are now sit on the day Labour had wanted it. Just finally, on

Chloe Smith, it does seem a bit unfair for her, it has been said

good as bomb was a coward not coming to face the cameras himself

-- George Osborne was a coward. We all individually go out and talk

about this. This government used to talk about

having a fuel regulator. When global few -- fuel prices were

rising you would cut or freeze the tax so the impact wasn't so bad,

and when global fuel prices were falling you would freeze or raise

the tax so that you have got more revenue. You have just done the

exact opposite. Global fuel prices, they are in freefall at the moment.

And yet you cut the tax. It is the exact opposite of what you said you

would you buy your own standards, you should have raised the tax. Why

have you changed? We are trying to make sure the

absolute price at the pump is something that families can afford.

It is falling. We have put in place a policy that

will help families. We want to make sure the pressure continues to be

there because we know from filling up the family car is a great

pressure. You called it the fuel regulator.

Now you have done the exact opposite and I did understand why.

I have said three or four times why, we are recognising for many

families and also businesses, the cost of fuel is a real issue.

He it is falling. I did want to leave Douglas

Alexander all lonely at the end -- I do not want to leave. The words

hypocrisy which were used in that text from the Tory whips about

Labour's call, not the first government to postpone a fuel duty

rise. You did it during the Glasgow by-election, pure politics.

We did it during the global financial crisis in 2008. One. I do

agree with Maria on, -- one point, it is frankly a shambled. -- a

shambles. What actually changed so that it

wasn't discussed in the Cabinet? It is inconceivable you would have a

change and fuel duty without consultation with the Transport

Secretary. The Transport Secretary before every Budget makes

submissions to the Chancellor. Why wasn't the discussion with the

Cabinet? The Transport Secretary? Why it is nobody in government able

to explain what changed in the mind of good Osborne and David Cameron

at lunchtime yesterday, other than the fact they realised they were in

an indefensible position? You will be asking him to explain

that. We will.

Now a subject close to our hearts. You may think the higher the tax

rate, the more government -- more money the government will have. One

man who disagrees is Andrew left her, a former adviser to President

Reagan and the creator of the Laffer curve. After a certain point

government receipts go up, tax rates can go down. If you cut the

tax you end up with more money. Earlier I caught up with Dr luffa,

began by asking if the government was to cut our taxes, would it

increase its revenues? Certainly some of the taxes could cut it --

could be cut and you could end up with more revenue. If you redesign

your tax codes you can collect a lot more revenue by having a very

efficient flat tax system and get a lot more revenue.

We would all play the same rate regardless of income? -- paid? Is

that fair? It is very fair, especially

considering the prosperity it could create.

A lot of talk in Britain about tax avoidance. Is that an inevitable

part of a hide that world. Yes. People don't like paying tax

and they do what they can to get around it. Some of them are a

little bit sketchy, but people really focus on money. If you drop

a fire punnet on the street, but you if you come back into hours it

will not be there -- five-pound note. Taxes are very important to

people. The argument in this country has

been about austerity, the government says we have got to get

the deficit down, Labour says we should stimulate more to try to get

some growth. Where I do? If you believe the government

spending is taxed, the government doesn't create resources, it

redistributes them. Every dollar they give to somebody, I consider

that austerity. I consider cutting government spending.

Labour is talking about cutting the rate.

But they have just raised it which is outrageous. 20% VAT, that is a

very high rate. When Ed Balls say we cut the rate

of VAT, he has the support of Arthur Laffer?

It is a disincentive for people to work. The government is taking 20%

of all are put, a lot of money. -- output. What are you allowed to

keep? There was a time when politicians

listened to you, Mrs Thatcher. Mr Regan. Mr Clinton, Mr Blair,

consolidated what they have done. They don't listen to you any more.

I don't know. But I am speaking the same as before. You did have to be

listened to to say the correct things. It worked pretty well for

Blair, didn't it? For Clinton, I thought Reagan did pretty well in

the US. You prefer you had under Gordon Brown, and what you're

getting now. If you do, go for it, it is your country, you can choose

to listen to whatever you want to choose. Go for it. But remember,

you will have to leave the consequences of what you listen to.

I am here to try to be a help. If I am not a help, turned me off.

We have to now, we have come to the end of the did you. Plenty very

much. We switched him off politely. The

three names he mentioned, three American economists to take a

different view to him. You can see a longer interview on the website.

Even a hero of the free-market right thinks Ed Balls is right.

I think what we were hearing was a call for a simpler and fairer tax

system and that is something that I understand. I happen to have

studied the Laffer curve one I was studying economics in the 80s so it

is nothing new. -- when I was studying. We are trying to

supervise the tax system. Taking 2 million people out of tax

altogether feels like a simplification. In this country you

cannot really look at tax and the complications and the incentives it

brings without looking at welfare as well. When you look at the

changes we are making to make the system more understandable, and

making sure work pace, doctor left there would be supportive of that

as well. -- Arthur Laffer. And the flat tax system? The simplification

is taking exactly what he is talking about. Taking 2 million

people out of the basic rate. doesn't make it flattered. It makes

people understand the role of tax. Every time I ask you about flatter,

use a simpler. He what Way has George Osborne made the taxes

flatter? -- In what way. It is simply George Osborne was looking

at. What he is very much focusing on is hard to make sure the tax

system promotes people to work harder, promotes them to stay in

this country, so the changes at the top rate of tax as well, inspired

Laffer didn't just influence Tony Blair. He accepted that 40% was the

right rate for the top rate of tax. He knew that if you did increase

that there was a danger you could end up with last. Taxes have to be

judged according to economic circumstances. Gordon Brown was the

Chancellor then. He sat at the top rate of tax. Arthur Laffer may be

engaging company but he is a discredited Economist in terms of

his first recital, Ronald Reagan, where the deficit grew rather than

shrink as a consequence of the massive tax -- massive tax cuts.

But that was because there was a build up in military spending.

he never talks about the spending side. His famous Graf was in

relation to tax. There was a build up in military spending because of

the Cold War. If there has to be a balance between income and

expenditure. That is why you need to reach a judgment based on

circumstances. You accepted the Laffer thesis. You accepted that

40% was the optimum rate of tax. accepted that you need to have

racial judgments according to economic circumstances. To help

Maria with the question you ask or, she could have said cutting the 50p

rate, but our judgment is that is the wrong judgment at this time.

Rewarding millionaires at a point where George Osborne, however

ridiculously, is trying to assert that we are in this together.

if 50p brings in less money? If you look at the evidence, it does bring

in significant sums of money and we make a judgment that it sends a

very clear signal that those at the top of society continue to have a

responsibility. How much extra has the 50p rate brought in? About half

of what it was estimated. accept that it did bring in money?

It brought in half of what was anticipated. How much? How much?

You have to accept that even the Labour government so that tax

increase. Ulex SAT that it was bringing in income but you cut it

anyway? -- you accept that. Why are you giving a tax cuts to

millionairess during a double-dip recession? We are trying to make

sure that we attract people and industry here. Let's move on to

something else you disagree about. All three main parties say they

support the reform of the House of Lords. They all put it into their

manifestos. So you might be forgiven for thinking that it is

job done, simple, simples even. When the Bill to reform the laws

gets -- reform the Lords gets into the House of Commons today, it may

begin a turbulent passage through Parliament. It could even result in

the biggest Conservative rebellion in modern history. What is

happening? Well, Nick Clegg and his party

desperately want to push this Bill through. Yesterday the party's

through. Yesterday the party's President told this programme that

Law Lords was an appalling system of institutionalised corruption. He

did not hold back. David Cameron has promised Nick Clegg that his

party will support the plans and he has imposed a three-line whip on

his MPs. However, it is thought that up to 100 Conservative MPs

could be ready to rebel against the Government. Many are worried that

an elected second chamber could challenge the primacy of the House

of Commons. Labour says it supports the principle of Lords reform but

Ed Miliband has said he will vote against the programme motion, to

limit the amount of time given to the debate. One Tory MP told us he

would be prepared to do the same and losing -- risk losing his job

as Parliamentary Private Secretary. as Parliamentary Private Secretary.

Be appointed House of Lords works. The Commons accept 80% of the bills.

I intend to support a position by opposing the programmed motion and

the second reading of the bill. are joined by Michael Forsyth.

Before I come to Michael Forsyth, Maria Miller, if the Government is

defeated on what is called the programmed motion, on which is to

determine the amount of time that the constitutional change should be

on the floor of the House, if the Government is defeated does it kill

the Bill? It does not. We are trying to make sure we get the

right balance between debating something which is important, and

reform of the House of Lords is important, but there are other

things the Government is doing and we need that time in Parliament.

The programme commotion will make sure we have the right balance.

will proceed even if the programmed motion falls? If the programme's

motion does not go through, all of this Bill Haas to be taken on the

floor of the House, and you will have to sideline all the other

legislative programmes. None of the main political parties in the House

of Commons believes that we should be not making progress on other

areas of our legislation. Would you have time if you go ahead without a

guillotine on this bill? It will be down to members of the House of

Commons and I believe the programmed motion will go through.

I ask you, if it does not, will you have time for anything else? That

would come down to the amount of people who wanted to participate in

debates. I think there will be quite a few. We will be going back

to the old days when there was no restrictions on debates. Harold

Wilson lost his effective programmed motion in 1969 to reform

the House of Lords. He had to abandon his reform altogether.

Michael Forsyth, you have agreed in principle to an elected second

chamber or mainly elected. If the coalition agreement reinforced that

and you have come forward with these proposals. Surely it is time

to live up to the promise. Unusually, none of these statements

are true. Our manifesto commitment was to seek a consensus towards a

largely elected House. And on the coalition agreement, the coalition

said that we would set up a committee to bring forward

proposals. That committee met once before breaking up in disarray.

There is no manifesto commitment from the Conservatives or anything

else in the agreement that says that we should proceed with this

ridiculous Bill, comprehensively rubbished already by a joint

committee of both Houses. Is there a consensus? De does not appear to

be. We believe in the reform. -- there does not appear to be. We are

willing to prove that it is there by voting in favour of what we are

not convinced of as a perfect bill. We will show good faith and

commitment by voting for the bill in a second reading. Your

commitment was a referendum. that is one of the issues that I

hope will be resolved. You will not vote for the motion to curtail

debate. We will not, because we are serious about reform and we are

serious about scrutiny. My understanding is the amount of time

that has been contemplated for such a major constitutional change is

derisory. Michael has already said they are not contemplating having a

referendums will be one to exclude the public. We want to avoid a

situation where members of parliament are excluded from the

scrutiny that is demanded. You used to be a member of the House of

Commons, if you cannot get a programmed motion through, and I am

-- am I right in thinking it is a fancy name for a guillotine? And we

also had a manifesto commitment, by the way, to end the automatic

timetabling Bills. This is a constitutional Bill which will

always be taken without a guillotine. On the floor of the

House. The very idea of doing this with a timetable motion in itself

is an outrage compared to what we told the voters. What is your view?

Labour will vote against it on the timetabled side. Your colleagues in

the House of Commons say they will abstain. If the timetable motion

does that get -- does not get through, is at the end of it in

your view or will they still struggle on? What does it mean for

the other legislative programmes? Any sensible government will say,

OK, let us have the bill passed and we will get that agreed quickly.

The spill has been drawn up to satisfy the Deputy Prime Minister.

-- this bill. Most people will be arranged that the idea of a grubby

deal between the Conservatives and liberals, that says that we will

give you a permanent control than vote in the House of Lords in

return for you agreeing to vote for boundary changes that will give us

20 extra seats. That is not the basis upon which to proceed with

major constitutional reform. upset will Mr Cameron be if 100 of

his troops fought against this? say that there has not been

sufficient debate on the idea of reform of the House of Lords is

absurd when only back in 2007 we were floating on similar issues. --

we were voting. The difference between the previous administration

and this one is that we want to move from words to actions. All

three parties have clearly pledged to make these reforms. Does that

mean, for example, and I notice that the Deputy Prime Minister was

saying today that those who make the law should be elected. Of

course, the House of Lords does not make any laws, and in the end the

House of Commons is the last say. Does the reverse applied which is

that if they are elected they are able to make the laws and challenge

the House of Commons? Politicians should be elected and people should

be able to call them to account. You are not answering my question.

Members of the House of Lords are politicians. He were not alone

there. Coming back to the question, how are said will Mr Cameron be if

there is a rebellion against this? -- how upset. We want to know that

we have made the case. So he will be absent? We want to know that we

explain to backbenchers like, burns. A does he really care about this?

You would have to ask the Prime Minister. So you do not know? In

one year's time, will it be through? I think not. If the

programmed motion is defeated the country will think, what on earth

are the House of Commons doing waiting time on this? We do not one

to see the Bill die. I have grave doubts about the management of the

Conservatives at the moment. I am far from convinced that 100 people

will vote against the programme commotion. They might abstain.

do not say that we want reform to die. We think there needs to be

serious scrutiny. We will have you back in the weeks ahead.

You may have heard that TV history has been made, not by us for a

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address: You can see the full terms and conditions for Guess The Year

on our website. Coming up to midday, let's have a

look at Big Ben. I think it is Tower. It can only mean one thing,

Prime Minister's Questions is on its way. Nick Robinson is here.

Welcome back. I know you had a tough time in Mexico. Someone had

to go! Go to a beach in the hot sunshine in Mexico when working

days finish at three in the afternoon and I said, "A few

forcemeat". We are grateful that he went. -- if you force me. Talk

about welfare reform, cuts, hints about a referendum on the UKIP. --

on the EU. Can I throw out for discussion that what the Prime

Minister is doing right and is more to do with party management and

government. Getting the Tory papers back onside after the omnishambles

budget, getting the backbenchers onside before the summer, certainly

giving Conservatives something to say about what they do, what they

would do if they were not in a coalition, but remember, something

like welfare reform is popular, at least in theory, with people across

the spectrum. I pointed out a poll the other day, 59% of Labour voters

said the benefits system was too generous. Yes, he is trying to

rebuild support. There was a drop in his poll ratings since the

Budget. Yes, he is doing that. Maybe we will get a knighthood for

David Beckham? As a matter of principle! And what is your reading,

are we in a position yet to know how big the rebellion on the Tory

backbenchers will be when it comes to this programmed motion? I don't

think we do know the numbers because we do not know what the

Bill is yet. We know roughly, but no, I do not think we know the

scale. It could be on the referendum. Straight over to the

This morning I had meetings with ministerial colleagues and I will

have further meetings later today. Isn't it is stupid to vote for

House of Lords reform but against the programme motion?

I think my honourable friend makes a very important point. We have

been discussing this issue for 100 years, and it really is time to

make progress. The truth of the matter is this, the Iraqi opponents

of Lords reform in every party -- there are opponents. But there is a

majority in this House for an elected House of Lords and I

believe there is a majority for that in the country. If those who

support Lords reform don't get out there and back it it will not

happen, that is the crucial point. It is absolutely hopeless in life

and in politics to do what the right honourable gentleman is

giving which is to say he is in favour of it and also against it,

it is hopeless. The Prime Minister said on 11th

April, "I will defend every part of that budget, I worked on it very

closely with the Chancellor of the Exchequer, line byline." what went

wrong? The fuel duty increase was a Labour

tax rise. It cannot be a U-turn to get rid of a Labour tax increase.

They put in place 12 increases on fuel duty in government, they left

behind six increases in fuel duty and I am proud of the fact we are

dealing with them. It was all part of a seamless

political strategy. And fortunately they forgot to tell the Transport

Secretary he went out and defended the increase, they forgot to tell

the Cabinet in the morning, though the Chancellor briefed them on the

economic situation, and they forgot to tell their own backbone --

backbenchers and said about to defend the old policy. Let's call

it what it is, another case of panic at the pumps. And a month

after month, every time this side of the House has proposed putting

more money in people's pockets to get the economy moving, he has

denounced the policy as irresponsible. Yesterday the

Chancellor said it was about precisely doing that, why doesn't

he admitted, plan a has failed? -- admit it.

Does he support stopping the fuel increase? Why not get up and

congratulate the Government for being on the side of the motorist

and the people who work hard and do the right thing. That is he we are

helping. I have to say to the right honourable gentleman, every stints

we came to office -- ever since we came to office, we have been

diffusing the increases. We have diffuse their increases in fuel tax.

They should be congratulating us for been on the side of those who

work hard and do the right thing. Back to the bunker after that

answer. Even on this Government's own measure of success, borrowing

went up yesterday. No wonder they want to change the exam system, the

Chancellor cannot get the matters right. Can he confirm that the

reason this government has had to borrow 3 billion of more, this time

last year, tax revenues are down, and the cost of economic failure of

going up, and it is all the result of double-dip recession made in

Downing Street? So on fuel tax he is against it

there he is in favour of it, and on borrowing he thinks it is too high

but wants to put it up? I think it is back to school.

I know he finds this shadow chancellor irritating, but he

called for the fuel duty cut. The reality is, they are not just a

economically incompetent, they are unfair as well. He made 60 tense,

but not in two particular decisions -- 6 U-turns. The tax for

millionaires paid for by the tax rise on pensions. He says he has

been lifting to the electorate, what feedback has he had almost

proposals? -- listening to. The Shadow Chancellor was the man

who put the fuel tax increase into the budget in the first place. What

we have been doing is getting rid of Labour's tax increases. It asks

me about the top rate of tax, it is wrong to have the top rate of tax

higher than France, Germany, Italy. I make this point, for 13 years of

a Labour government, in which he said, the top rate of tax was 40p,

the top rate of tax will now be 45p. Again, affect you will be in order.

He claims to be proud of the weight the decision on the fuel tax was

made, the Chancellor had a way yesterday refusing to answer on the

decision. -- hid away. No wonder the Chancellor yesterday said that

the economic Secretary to do all the interviews. It is no wonder the

Member for Mid Bedfordshire said this. I didn't see Newsnight but if

Osborne sent clearly on he is a coward as well as arrogant -- said

Chloe Smith. There is no change on the tax cut for millionaires.

Doesn't the Prime Minister realise what people hate about this

government is the double standards of them saying tax avoidance is

immoral, but it is OK when so many people are struggling to get by 2

1/2 -- give a tax-cut to millionaires -- struggling to get

by, to give a tax-cut to millionaires.

He says the Chancellor was hiding away. He was announcing this tax

reduction from the dispatch box. I know, Mr Speaker, the House of

Commons doesn't always get reported, but he was actually here making the

announcement and I have to say completely wrong-footing the Shadow

Chancellor. What we have heard today from the Leader of the

Opposition is a whole series of arguments about process. Process

about the House of Lords where he is wrong on the substance, process

about the economy where he is wrong on the substance, process about the

deficit when he wants to but the borrowing up, absolutely hopeless.

It is about an economic plan that is failing and about the unfairness

of this government. The unfairness of this government, he talks about

the tax affairs of Jimmy Carr, he is giving a tax cut to millionaires

of �40,000 per year across this country. Including in his own

Cabinet. When it comes to tax it is obviously one rule for the

comedians and another role for the comedians in the Cabinet. The Prime

Minister has spent the last week blundering into the tax affairs of

Jimmy Carr, his budget unravelling, economic plan failing, from the

country. Did you it is a shambles, from his point of view it is just

another week in the office -- from the country's pointed you.

The Prime Minister's answer will be heard.

I am not at all surprised the honourable gentleman is touchy

about the issue of tax avoidance because to have they just voted to

the top of the list of the National Executive Committee, Ken

Livingstone. It is this government that is cracking down on aggressive

and illegal tax avoidance and tax evasion and it is their party

voting for them. Sir Malcolm Bruce. The International Development

Committee spent the last week in Afghanistan and would pay tribute

to the dedication of our armed forces and civil servants working

under difficult conditions but will the Prime Minister at the Tokyo

conference next month's reassure the people of Afghanistan although

the troupe brought down in 24 team, advice and assistance will be there

for years be on that so it can become a functioning state?

To date is the day we encourage people who served to wear a uniform

to work, not something members of this House could do, but we should

remember all those who serve our country, whether in the reserves or

the regular forces. On the issue of support for Afghanistan we have

already merged we will continue with a generous level of aid and

development support we are giving to Afghanistan after 2015, we have

very much been leading the charge on that, as well as helping to fund

the build-up of the Afghan national security forces between now and

2015. Can I ask the Prime Minister what

is the moral difference between celebrities avoiding tax, and a

Cabinet of millionaires cutting tax to benefit themselves?

Perhaps the best way to answer that question is to quote her own leader

who said this. At the launch of his local election campaign tax

avoidance is a terrible thing, it must be cracked down on. That is

what I thought was the official position of the Labour Party, they

should be thanking us for getting on and doing just that.

In welcoming the decision not to increase fuel duty does the Prime

Minister think this shows hard- pressed families and businesses we

mean business about refuelling growth?

The honourable lady is absolutely right. It is his government that

has taken 2 million people out of income back -- it is this

government that has taken 2 million people out of income tax. It has

repeatedly Delworth fuel duty so it is 10p less than it would be under

the plans left to us by the last Labour government. -- repeatedly

reduced fuel duty. One way in which the Prime Minister

could put an end to the aggressive tax-avoidance schemes is to

legislate for a general anti- avoidance, not a general rule, will

he make one more U-turn and back up his expression of public outrage

with real action and legislate for a general anti-avoidance principle?

Legislating on a general anti- avoidance rule is exactly what we

are doing, exactly what Labour didn't do for 13 years and they

look forward to welcoming him into our division lobbies.

Unemployment in my constituency has reduced by 5.7% in the last year.

Can this government work to reduce unemployment and make sure we are

focusing on that type of things, unlike the other party who have had

no solution to the economic issue. What part of a additional growth

will come from new businesses? What is this government doing to

encourage teaching enterprise in schools to nurture the next

generation of entrepreneurs? It is quite clear at the party

opposite just want to shout down anyone who wants to talk up what is

happening in our economy. The fact is, in the last quarter we saw

200,000 new private sector jobs which was more than four times the

rate of growth we saw in terms of the decline in the public sector.

We are seeing a rebalancing of our economy and intense of small

business in 2011 it was a record year for the creation of new small

businesses in our country and on the side of the House we are in

favour of encouraging that. The coalition agreement stated that

the government would introduce a House business committee by the

third year of this Parliament, would the Prime Minister confirmed

to the House he will introduce it within the next 12 months?

We are looking carefully at this issue. Can I just say to the

honourable gentleman he served as a minister and a backbench MP,

already this government by introducing the backbench business

has made one of the most fundamental reform -- reforms of

the space. Backbench members are all unable to -- able to determine

the time and subject of debate, something that never happened under

No. 6, please, Mr Speaker. Gift Aid is an important way to support

charitable giving. We know there can be difficulties for charities

to collect Gift Aid declarations, for example when they are

collecting donations in the street. That is why we are introducing the

small donations scheme and the scheme will enable charities to

claim a gift style payment of one donations where it has not been

possible to collect a declaration. That will help charities in many

parts and be welcome on all sides of the House. Community hospitals

across Britain benefit greatly through their friends from gift Aid

donations. Could the Prime Minister reassure all those who give so

generously that the equipment and facilities they fund will be

guaranteed to remain for the benefit of local health communities

and could I invite him to visit a community hospital in my

constituency to see Gift Aid in action? I have visited a community

hospital in her constituency while having a holiday in her

constituency so why has some experience of the excellent service

provided in South Devon. It -- so I have some. Legal friends to a

brilliant job across the country and the money they provide for that

equipment should remain local. The gift Aid changed that we have

announced should help hospitals and people like the ones she refers to.

He has not had time to reach a judgement on the tax affairs on

Gary Barlow but he has had years to consider those of massive

Conservative donor Lord Ashcroft. Are they morally wrong, like Jimmy

Carr? Like all members of both Houses of Parliament, all peers

have to be full UK taxpayers, that is a change I fully support. While

we are on this subject, he may want to have a little look at Labour's

chief fund raiser, in man called Andrew Rosenfeld, who between the

years of 2006 and 2011, he lived in which key marginal seat? Anyone?

Anyone? Zurich. Would my right honourable friend take this

opportunity... Order. The honourable gentleman deserves to be

heard. There has been too much noise today. It is discourteous.

Thank you, Mr Speaker. Would my honourable friend take this

opportunity to remind the House that there is a crucial EU summit

at the end of this week? Which is more important for UK growth and

jobs? The implications of these massive changes or House of Lords

reform? Clearly in terms of growth in the UK economy, what is

happening in the Eurozone and what is happening in Europe is extremely

important and it is a vital summit that is taking place on this

Thursday and Friday. The UK government has a clear view which

is that Eurozone countries need to do more in the short term to settle

the financial instability in the market, but they also need to take

Meechan and longer term steps to make sense of the Eurozone. That

will involve them sharing greater powers. That is something that the

UK should not be involved in. I think we have a clear view. I think

we push forward arguments with great vigour and we will protect

and defend the economy and political system at the same time.

Every hour of every day somebody gets killed by a weapon that has

been irresponsibly treated from one country to another. Next week, the

arms trade treaty negotiations start in New York. Will the Prime

Minister make sure and guarantee that the British delegation will

fight for the inclusion in the treaty not only of police and

security apparatus that can be used for internal repression but also of

ammunition, which is vital. It is bullet that killed. As the

honourable gentleman knows, we backed the arms trade treaty and

have done for a considerable amount of time. We lobbied vigorously on

that issue. I will look at the specific point and write to him.

Friday night, three times in my a area were subject to flooding when

two rivers broke their banks at the same time. Would my right

honourable friend to join me in congratulating the emergency

services for working through the night and particularly the

residents of Crawshawbooth who came out in the morning to clean up the

village show it was able to welcomed the Olympic torch 12 hours

later? -- so it was able. I joined my honourable friend embracing the

emergency services. These were dangerous and damaging floods, cos

by rainfall over a short period time. Emergency services performed

admirably. Now we're in the recovery phase where people start

to look at going back into their homes. There will be questions

about insurance and how we can help. I'm sure he will make these

arguments and the Government will do all it can to help. Will the

Prime Minister finally answer the question why this year to date his

government have actually borrowed �3.9 billion more than they did

this time last year? The deficit that he left and his party left,

the deficit is down by a quarter. The policy that he supports is to

spend more, to borrow more and put the debt up even further. Godwin

Lawson, 17, from Enfield was tragically stabbed to death in 2010.

Since then, his mother has become a powerful force for challenging the

culture of knife crime. By sharing her experiences of her son's death

with young people. Like many on the front line of knife crime, she can

make an extraordinary contribution to challenging this culture but

some authorities are not yet getting behind supporting and

offering some funding to achieve this. Would the Prime Minister lent

his support and encouragement to those people to get behind the

issue? I were a certain the day of my support to Mrs Laursen and those

others playing such a heroic role in changing the culture of knife

crime in our country. It is worth remembering that this year, Ben

Kinsella would have been 21. I pay tribute to Brooke Kinsella and all

the families who, in many ways it would be easier for them to turn

away from the tragedy that robbed them of their family members, but

instead they campaign and show immense bravery, raising the

profile of this issue. The Government must play its part by

making sure there are mandatory sentences and we who are and have

done that. -- and we have done that. Frankly, the bravery of those who

have lost loved ones talking about it in schools can play a huge role

in changing the culture. The Prime Minister will be aware of the

horrific explosion that occurred in my constituency yesterday. I am

sure the whole House will want to pay tribute and mourn the death of

the two-year-old, and would want to send best wishes to the burns

victim as well. Would he join me in paying tribute to the work of the

emergency services that attended the event, which I witnessed first

hand, and also be contingency Red Cross service. Will he agree that

we should never take for granted the courage and bravery of our

servicemen and women? I think the honourable lady is right to Speaker

she does and a house will want to send a message of sympathy and

condolences to the family of that poor child. And also our best

wishes to the burns victim who is in hospital being treated at the

moment. The scenes were quite appalling to see on our televisions.

I certainly join her in paying tribute to the emergency services

and also wish all speed to the police to get to the bottom of

anything that might have happened here. Everyone will require answers

to what has been an absolute charge today. -- absolute tragedy. The

flood victims Facebook Page and the just giving page shows great giving

spirit. Also events going ahead this weekend shows the community is

resilient. Also, it shows that my constituency is open for village --

for business. Can my honourable friend update our flooded

communities on how negotiations are going with the insurance industry

so that they can get insurance in the future at a reasonable price?

understand why my friend Mike wants to raise this issue. I believe

there were over 550 properties -- 550 properties affected by these

damaging floods in his constituency. On the issue of flood insurance we

will work hard with the industry to deliver widely available and

affordable household insurance in flood rest -- areas at risk from

flood. Having suffered as my constituency supper in 2007, while

the recovery is extremely difficult, the resilience of communities and

the amount of public and community service that comes out of our

communities is remarkable. 20 years ago this week, the

Ravenscraig steelworks in my constituency was closed. Thousands

of steelmaking jobs were lost and sadly many of my former steel

making colleagues never found work again. 20 years on, will the Prime

Minister apologise for his party's shameful role in the demise of the

Scottish steel industry? I'm sorry for every job that has been lost in

manufacturing or very very long period of time but what I would say

is that while manufacturing as a share of the economy almost halved

under the last government, that share is now increasing and in

terms of the steel industry, I think it is worth recognising that

under this Government, the steel industry has started again on

Teesside and that is something the House should a plot.

-- should applaud. Hereford is the home of the SAS and July 19th will

be the 40th anniversary of the battle in which nine SAS soldiers

fought off more than 300 heavily armed guerrillas. During the battle,

one individual was shot while operating a 25 pound field gun, a

weapon designed for a six-man team. Successive governments have

declined to recognise the extraordinary nature of his

sacrifice. The SAS have minnies -- have many heroes but will the Prime

Minister gave his support to the campaign to get the Sergeant

awarded the posture Ms Victoria Cross that he so clearly earned?

think my honourable friend is right to speak up for the ICS. --

posthumous Victoria Cross. We are not allowed to speak much about

what they do on the record, but it is worth putting on the record the

immense gratitude of all government and the entire British people to

the risks they take on our behalf. Thinking of the hostage rescue, I

would like to do that personally. In terms of the question that he

asks, I do not think these sorts of decisions are for politicians to

make but let me pay tribute to the heroic actions of Batman and

everyone involved on that day. -- heroic actions of that man.

Is the Prime Minister bringing back all levels? What the Education

Secretary explained in detail yesterday is that we want to have

an absolute gold standard of exams in our country that are about

rigour and high standards. The tragedy is that what we inherited

from the last government was a system that was being progressively

dumbed down, where Britain was falling down the league tables and

GCSE questions included things like "How do you see the moon? Through a

telescope or a microscope?" On this side of the House, we believe we

need a rigorous system. exciting space science and

technology park in my constituency richly deserves the conditional

regional growth fund approval which will secure a vital job -- vital

jobs and inward investment into the UK and also harmonise with the

Government's own welcome and critical commitment to space growth,

will be Prime Minister please use his influence to ensure that there

is no further of for a double delay in implementation of the grant and

the launch of this critical important enterprise? I will look

carefully at what my honourable friend says. 60% of regional growth

fund projects are now underway. The money has been distributed in many

cases but I will look specifically at this project which sounds

interesting and worthwhile involving radio astronomy and

Satellite Management. These are hi- tech jobs for Cornwall and I know

that is something that Cornwall needs. I will do my best to make

sure that happens. One third of health care trust

deficit in my region is due to the wrong to suggest the entire deficit

is due to the PFI? Should not be working to deal with that situation

rather than imposing out stride administrators to cut local health

services? -- outside administrators. First of all, it is his government

to is putting more money into the NHS this year, next year and the

year after. Some of these NHS trusts like the one he mentions

have enormous deficits and a large part of that is down to the

completely failed PFIs systems that the last government put in place. -

- PFIs systems. Hospitals up and down the country, it costs �120 to

reset and alarm, �466 to replace a light fitting. They're shouting

that these were conservative PFIs but they were not. Everyone was put

in place under a Labour government. Yet again, time for a apology.

-- an apology. Does the Prime Minister agree that the way to

tackle aggressive tax avoidance is to bring in flatter, fairer taxes?

I certainly support flatter, fairer taxes and that is why we have a --

we have 2 million people taking out of income tax, a Laura Trott rate

of tax to make us competitive with the rest of the world. It is

important to put this on the record. Tax evasion is a legal and wrong

and should be chased down but as the Chancellor has sent, some of

the tax avoidance schemes that have been put in place in recent years

are, in my view, very questionable, and the government should declare

that the Revenue's' task is to close those down and make sure that

In December last year this House passed a motion calling for a bill

to make urgent reforms to our deeply unfair extradition treaties.

Seven months later, there is still no bill and no action. What makes

the Prime Minister more uncomfortable, ignoring the will of

the House for months on end or the plight of those facing imminent

extradition? We held the Scott Baker review and it looked

carefully at extradition arrangements. I would urge the

honourable lady to look at the cases that are causing concern but

also at the overall figures, where we are benefiting by being able to

extradite people that committed serious crimes from the US back

into the UK. We continue to look at this and we will do the right thing

for our country, but do not think it is a simple issue. It is not.

Would the Prime Minister congratulate the excellent

Secretary of State for International Development for

producing a flag that will replace the European Union's logo on all

our overseas aid? He should be thoroughly congratulated. I am sure

that like myself, my honourable friend and indeed probably Mrs Ben,

we got the dear colleague letter with this excellent new logo. It

shows that the aid that we send is not on behalf of the British

Government. It is on behalf of all of the British people, who I think

support the fact that Britain stands for something in the world

and stands up for helping the poorest in our world even when we

have a difficult time in our own PMQs comes to an end on time this

week! That is why we are slightly discombobulated with no idea what

to say. That will be a first! we do. Mr Miliband went strongly on

the latest U-turn on the fuel crisis, adding together all the

previous ones and going on the economy. Mr Cameron pretty much on

the back foot a number of times on that as the Labour leader went on

the offensive. We will analyse that in a moment, but what did you think

first? There were emails on fuel duty and House of Lords reform.

Another poor week from Mr Cameron. Mr Miliband had an open goal on the

shambles of the Budget and hammered the ball firmly into the back of

the Tory net. I would imagine for Mr Cameron the summer recess cannot

come soon enough. And this, a good performance from Ed Miliband with

David Cameron on the back foot. We need economic growth in the UK to

re-establish their credibility. But this from George in Dudley. Ed

Miliband is pathetic, tried to pretend that Labour are the friends

of the taxpayer, what rubbish. I don't recall Ed Miliband and Ed

Balls as rushing to demand the 50p tax rule as unfair. And this,

instead of points scorer across the despatch box, can Ed Miliband

please tell the electorate what is planned for the economy is? Perhaps

that is not the place where he would do that. Our MPs are elected

and do not have the history of blowing morality so be careful what

you wish for. I am awful careful of what I wish for and I hardly wish

for anything! Almost every week now, some part of the Budget and raffles,

does a U-turn. -- unravels. We keep waiting for things to turn, to go

the Government's Way again, but it seems to meet that this could

continue to the summer recess and it cannot come soon enough. The day

after announcing something that is hugely popular, giving people some

money back, giving motorists that of feeling hard pressed some money

back, the Prime Minister is on the back foot. Good jokes from Mr

Miliband, panic at the pumps and so on. Good performance from the

Labour leader. But he has got two open goals that he is scoring in

today. On the one hand, he can say it is a shambolic, Government that

does not know what it is doing, changing its mind. And on the other

hand, he is able, less successfully, but making some progress and he

will be pleased with that, to say that this indicates that you

economic plan is not working because borrowing is up and yet you

are spending money, which is what Labour argued. It is quite bad news

for a Government when you are doing something that most people want you

to do but then one day later people are watching you struggle a bit.

There is a problem for the coalition. It is timing. When this

coalition had its first Budget in June of 2010, it said we need five

years to sort out the deficit. Then by the pre-Budget statement in

November of last year, the Chancellor said that he needed

another two, so seven. Since then we have had both the Governor of

the Bank of England and the Chief Secretary to the Cabinet saying

that actually it could take a decade, to 2020. The problem for

the coalition at the moment is that it is austerity for the foreseeable

future. I do not think you can underestimate the size of the

problem that we have inherited here. I think that the fact that we have

to take the sort of actions that we are taking is absolutely right. I

think that is what people in the country respect, Government taking

tough decisions. But you did underestimated. You said it would

be five years and now you have changed it to seven and there is

talk from the Cabinet that it could be 10. So you did underestimate it

or you made it was. What we have got to do now is make sure the

right plans are in place to get spending under control. You say you

want to get spending under control. How much have you borrowed in this

financial year so far? Well, ultimately... How much have you

borrowed so far? What we have got to do is make sure that borrowing

is going down. So how much have you borrowed so far this year? What we

have done is cut the deficit by a quarter. No, you have cut last

year's deficit by a quarter compared to the year before. So far

this year you have borrowed �31 billion. That is �6.2 billion more

than you borrowed in April and May of the last financial year. So far

in this financial year you are not cutting the deficit at all. You are

actually borrowing more. Let's look at Labour's response to that.

and so my point. I will come to Labour in a minute. -- answer my

point. One of the main drivers his welfare. And one of the reasons

that welfare reforms are so important is to get the debt down

in the long term and cut the deficit in the short term. If you

are allowed to cut the deficit, then why is it the deficit rising

in this financial year? The deficit is still a continuing problem

because of the scale of the problem that we inherited. But you are

adding more. You are borrowing a lot more than they borrowed. What

we are trying to do, in tandem with the problems that we have inherited,

is to cut things like the welfare bill, to make sure that we have a

proper system in place. Remember that under the last Government

welfare increased by 50%. These are the sorts of things that do not

take 24 months to turn around, but much longer than that. I will ask

you one more time. If your aim is to cut the deficit, the central

plank of the coalition, why is borrowing rising in this financial

year? Because we need to make sure that we are giving even more to get

spending under control. The basic economics are there. So why is

current spending up 3.7% year on year if you are trying to cut

spending? Why is it up by 3.7%? know the answer is that we have to

wait for the reforms that we have put in place to really make a

difference to the sort of bills that we are getting through. 50%

increase in welfare reform. But why is Labour on that? They talk a good

talk but they are not actually supporting reductions in spending.

The difficulty that even Labour would face is not just that we are

where we are, but the eurozone looks like being a permanent drag

on the world economy, including Britain, for the foreseeable future.

We have another summit this week. We know it is going to do nothing

to meet the immediate demands. We can talk about fiscal union in the

years to come, even a federal Europe in 10 years' time, but as

long as a eurozone fails to get its act together and resolve the

situation, it is a permanent drag on the British economy, the

American economy, even the Chinese and Indian economies which are now

in trouble. Of course the eurozone will have an impact on the British

economy but it is simply not credible for the Government to

explain the fact that Britain is in a double-dip recession with an

attribution to the eurozone. It was emergency Budget of George Osborne

in 2010 which we argued, and there is accumulating evidence for this,

that choked of economic growth at a critical point. It is also when the

eurozone crisis really kicked off. But if you look at where the

economy was benefiting in terms of the stagnation that we have

witnessed, it was relying on exports to the eurozone during that

year even when stagnation was happening. The central point is

this. I believe the reason that we have seen extra borrowing from the

Conservatives, the fact that borrowing was higher yesterday, is

because the central economic judgment of George Osborne in 2010

was that he could cut this deep this quickly and sustain aggregate

demand in the economy. But he has not cut. He believed the private

sector would pick up. What he has done is choked off the recovery.

Hang on. How much as public spending been cut since 2010?

is the question that you should ask Maria. I am asking you because you

said he has cut too much. reason borrowing is increasing is

because so Ireland when it goes up, so the costs go up. -- because when

unemployment goes up. The tell me how much he has cut. We are in the

worst of all worlds where we do not have the growth in the economy or

the borrowing figures being delivered. You said the Chancellor

has cut too much and that is why we are in a double-dip recession. If

he has cut too much, you must know cutting �20 billion out of the

welfare budget. Overall. In terms of what their policy is at the

moment? How much is it down compared to 2010? Shall I tell you?

The economy is stagnating. It is 0.8%. That cannot explain a double-

dip recession. How would you explain a double-dip recession?

whole host of other reasons that is only part of that. That is for you

to decide. While we have been arguing, historic pictures have

come into the BBC. Let's go to Belfast, to Northern Ireland, where

we can see the Queen with the Duke of Edinburgh behind, shaking hands.

First of all were the first minister, and then a handshake that

the world will be watching. Martin McGuinness shaking hands with the

head of state of the United Kingdom. And just as significant, as you saw,

the Duke of Edinburgh shaking hands with Martin McGuinness. Of course

it was Helmand batten, his cousin, who was killed by an IRA bomb. --

Lord Mount Batten. Reaction? I was thinking how can I explain that to

my children? You hear on the television that Martin McGuinness

was associated with the IRA, terrorist group, but not often. I

bumped into John Reid here. He told me that the way he does it is this.

3500 people died on both sides of the Northern Irish Troubles, what a

euphemism one --.. If that was in Britain it would be 20,000 people

and in the USA it would be half a million and she has shaken the hand

of somebody that justified that violence. I think her conduct is

exemplary. The distinction and a class with which she conducts

itself, we should be very proud because it cannot have been an easy

murmured. I think respect goes out to her as an individual who can put

aside their private situation and be able to lead what is an

important part of the process to get to a better place in Northern

Ireland. Well, there we are. Historic

pictures going round the world, and they will be in every news cast for

quite some time. It is the fact that those that were

privately educated are disproportionately represented in

positions of power, just look at politics and the media. That has

got one public schoolboy hot under the collar. He says that all

private schools should be set down. It gives you a brilliant education.

A host of opportunities. And above all, confidence. The kind of

confidence that you need to stand in front of a camera and tell

everybody else what to think. It seems to me terribly unfair that so

many of the places at Oxford go to children that have been to private

school. I should know. I was one of I was a bright kid. I got a

scholarship. I might have got in, even if I had been to state school,

but the chances were lower. It is hardly surprising when you see that

the private schools have so much more money to spend, smaller class

sizes and a catchment area largely composed of pushy parents.

These schools or obstruct social mobility. They segregate society,

making it harder for the most powerful class to empathise with

the needs of others. And they ensure that those powerful people

have no stake in the state system so they have no qualms about seeing

it cut. Private schools are a social menace.

If you believe in the idea of equality of opportunity, in the

notion of a meritocracy, if you do not want to see so many people's

talent being wasted, I hope he will agree with me that they should be

shut down. -- I hope you will agree.

And George Monbiot is off his bike and in the studio. Before we come

to you, both of you were educated at state school. Is it much more

difficult to make it? You have not done badly. I also did not go to

Oxford or Cambridge. But you have succeeded. I absolutely. I think

the challenge that the Government and Michael Gove are grappling with

is how do we make sure that the state system does what it should

have done. How do we make sure that children are taking the sorts of

subjects that would give them the opportunities to go to the best

universities? The problem we have is that half of children have not

been taking core academic subject and have not had the opportunity to

go to the best universities. We should be tackling those problems.

I know that George feels so strongly about those issues of

social mobility. I went to a comprehensive in Renfrewshire and

frankly there are too few kids from that kind of background getting in,

not just to Oxford and Cambridge but to other institutions. There

can be no grounds for complacency. I am not convinced that what

Michael Gove leaked, the idea of a two-tier system of exams, is a

necessary sign of progress. I am worried about it. George Monbiot is

suggesting getting rid of private schools. Would that help state

school pupils get to top universities? My motivation is

dealing with the 93% that go to state schools as a priority, rather

than the 7% that go to private schools. Get rid of them to? They

have an obligation to fulfil the charitable status. Some of them do

that. I am not convinced that they all do but the priority has to be

the 93% who want to see better opportunities for state-educated

kits. They do not need to get rid of private schools to do it. I do

not expect progress of policies from the Labour Party any more. One

of the reasons why opportunities a truncated for state school kids is

that state schools are not given the resources and political cloud

behind them that they need and that is partly because the richest and

most powerful people in society can opt out. They do not care what

happens to state schools. It is in their interests that the state

schools get worse so that their children do better by comparison.

You have a segregated society which keeps state -- keeps say -- keeps

state schools down. What do you think? Look at the facts. In the

last decade, Britain has fallen in terms of its delivery of good

quality students. In maths, we have slipped from eight for two 28th.

Let's focus on what's important. Does it not reinforce the need to

improve the quality of our schools? That is what I'm arguing. One of

the factors that makes sure that we are not putting the effort and

resources into improving quality is that people, particularly those who

populate the Conservative Party but also quite a few in the Labour

Party, Bushey, powerful rich parents in general, have absolutely

no interest in seeing state schools improved and seeing the quality

rising. Because they have opted out of that system. You do not have to

say that it is something you would like to see but is very

correlation? If you got rid of private schools, would the

standards automatically improve in state schools could that of course

not. There is no way that could happen. It would not be automatic.

The parents would make sure that they improve because they would go

berserk if the quality was too low. You have benefited from a fantastic

education. He went to a marvellous goal but you want to deprive others.

You cannot win in this one because if he did not know -- if you did

not go, it is the politics of envy and if you'd did go, it is the

politics of the drawbridge. Everyone is disqualified! You have

compared the number of people that go to state schools and end up to -

- end up at Oxford and Cambridge, but 59% of students at Oxford and

Cambridge were from state schools, better than in my day. It is better

but it means that 42% are going to private school pupils to make up

only 7% of the population which is grossly disproportionate. Surely we

should try to make sure that those children get that opportunity by

making sure they have the right opportunities. I went to Edinburgh

University. I think Scotland had four of the ancient universities in

400 years. Before you get too pious... Here we go! Before we had

the Act of Union cast asunder! would you do it? Let's say the

politicians said it's a wonderful idea, how do you dismantle the

system? Takeaway charitable status. Basically the rest of us are

effectively subsidising a system that helps almost entirely the

children of the very rich. And to have charitable status for that is,

I think, completely wrong. The second thing, do what governments

do and legislate. Governments have given up legislating, but in

principle, that is what they used to do. The European Convention on

Human Rights say that parents have the right to choose their

children's' -- children's education base of philosophical beliefs.

the size of the wallet. I can see it being a possibility within that

range. There is another way of approaching it which is Peter

Wilby's solution, which is that instead of the current selection

process, you say that the top universities will take the top

pupils from every school, regardless of their absolute greats.

At a stroke, that gets away from the motivation for private schools,

because pushy parents are going to want to have their children

distributed as widely as possible. Interesting idea? I think we need

to open the closed circle of privilege at the top of British

society. Joking aside, Andrew made a powerful television programme

about this which revealed the fact that some of the points that George

has been making, that it is to close at the moment. I remain of

the view philosophically and practically that the priority has

to be to give the best opportunities to kids from ordinary

backgrounds but that does not preclude the responsibility of

universities and companies in leading institutions, to cast their

door wider than they have been. George Monbiot, thank you very much.

He has a clip of our favourite TV programme.

This moves around us in a regular orbit. In one month, why is it not

back here. The next is one -- the next one is not for four years.

is a simplistic model. You think it would pass the same place every

month but it does not. The reason is because the moon's orbit is

inclined. We're more used to seeing particle physicist Professor Brian

Cox and comedian Dara O'Briain telling us about the night sky. But

earlier today they left their telescopes at home to deliver a

petition to Downing Street. The subject, the defamation Bill

currently going through Parliament. They believe the Bill does not go

far enough in protecting our freedom to have opened, scientific

and political debate. They argue that the Defamation Bill needs a

proper public interest defence and a bar or on corporations suing

individuals for libel. Recent high- profile cases have included the

author Simon Singh, sued by the British chiropractic Association

for questioning the evidence that their methods can help treat child

disorders. And then go Oldaker, the "Bad science" Guardian journalist

was sued by a vitamin salesman for criticising his promotion of

vitamins to treat HIV and Aids. -- Ben Paul Dacre. Brian Cox has hot-

footed it from Downing Street. He joins us. What is wrong with the

bill as currently constituted? you say, it is important that this

bill is there and it has a cross- party support. It is recognised

that there is a problem. This Bill goes part of the way to addressing

the problem but our test, these high profile cases, our test was

would these bill -- would they still have prevented those cases

going to court? And our legal device -- hour legal advice says

know it would not have. One reason, you mentioned Ben Paul Dacre's case,

he spoke to Parliament earlier and pointed out that although he won,

the Guardian was left with a bill of over �100,000. Even to fight

that case, you need a lot of money. Your argument is that the

corporations have been using these laws and could still under the

changes, to essentially closed down criticism. There is a good example

of how this should work in the bill. There is protection, and a ring

fencing around peer review debate in scientific journals. There is a

recognition of the fact that the robust presentation of evidence

around ideas, that that is absolutely the core of decision-

making in our society orach should be. There is a recognition that

that should be protected. It is protected in Parliament by

privilege and there is partial privilege for the scientific

publications. We think that should be extended to the public. By

example that is used his websites like Mumsnet, where a robust

debate... There was an M E website were there was a discussion about a

claim that herbal tea could allow weight loss to happen. Eight diet

supplement, essentially. There was a libel action threatened in that

debate and the attempt was made to shut that down. There was an

interesting case with Which? magazine who presented a report on

child seats in cars and the company issued a libel threat saying that

it could not be discussed, rather than presenting a counter argument

it, so the public could make their own decision. Because of the First

Amendment in the United States, none of these things could happen

there. None of these court cases would see the light of day. If it

came to court, the judge would say, sorry, First Amendment, thank you

and goodbye. That is another debate, free-speech, it is not part of

British law. We're looking for a law Bar. We're saying that the

evidence should be presentable, and there should be some protections

are round malicious publications, and everyone accepts that. --

protections around. The threat of libel action, the competition, the

time, the cost, the public should be prevented from seeing the

evidence, that idea seems to be to be unreasonable. This became the

libel capital under -- libel capital of the world under Labour.

I think the Conservatives and Ken clerk deserve credit for this

because too often when a new government comes in, even if there

is a good idea, they say they will not take it forward. They have

taken a different point of view and we think they are right and will

support them. We have concerns reflected in what Brian said that

the bill needs to go further but I think this legislation is overdue.

Is the judge -- is the Government's open, will they listen to the need

to make the Bill tougher so that it does the full job? We will always

listen. The important thing is getting the balance right between

freedom of speech and the ability to protect your reputation as well.

The great strike that has been made in this bill is putting it on a

statutory footing, the idea of a responsible publication, and making

sure that people have more clarity in this area. Moving away from

being the libel capital of the world. One of the changes is that

the damage has to be done in this country, you can no longer get a

billionaire from Azerbaijan coming year. We have time to give you the

answer to our Guess The Year competition. The answer was 1989.

Where is the button? I have not got a button! It is under the chair. It

is too far away. I would just do this. There we go. As it come up?

Live telly is great! It is up on the screen. The button works, even

when it is not there. Brian, thank you for being with us, interesting