03/09/2012 Daily Politics


03/09/2012

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Afternoon, folks, welcome back to the Daily Politics. After the

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stunning success of the Olympics it is back to reality as politics

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returns to business as usual. Top of the agenda, how to get the

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economy growing again. Chancellor George Osborne is promising

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billions of Government guarantees for infrastructure. Tory

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backbenchers want tax cuts, spending cuts and smaller

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Government. David Cameron plots his first major

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reshuffle of Government. Who is on the up and who is up for the chop?

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The current Education Secretary, Michael Gove, says his new policy

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on free schools in England is a success. Over 50 new schools open

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this week. Labour disagrees. Remember this? We will bring me up

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to speak with every political twist and turn of the summer. You will

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not have missed anything. Do not tell us we do not spoil your.

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Is that the man who thinks he can be the prime minister? Yes, in that

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rather elegant position. He is just hanging around. With us for the

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next 30 minutes, because we could not afford them for the next two

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hour, two Olympian political commentators. Fraser Nelson, editor

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of the Spectator and Polly Toynbee, columnist at the Guardian.

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After a summer of marvellous Olympic high is at Westminster gets

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back to business today. Parliament has returned to the reality of what

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they left before they went away, a flatlining economy. Chancellor

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George Osborne it used a television interview yesterday to set out

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plans of another goal, just starting UK plc. In the next couple

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of weeks you will see us introduced in Parliament legislation to speed

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up the processes that mean we can build roads more quickly that it

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takes to fight a World War. It means we can guarantee

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infrastructure projects. We will have a specific piece of

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legislation published next week so that the Government can use the low

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interest to underwrite infrastructure projects including

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housing. We are doing all these things to use the good name the

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Government has built up internationally, the low interest

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rates we have got to fund our banks to get the economy moving.

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Chancellor on the Andrew Marr Show yesterday from Broadcasting House.

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Fraser Nelson, the prime minister says on the Mail on Sunday, they do

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an article every week now, he is more determined than ever to cut

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through the desert that holds this country back. Can you remind me who

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has been Prime Minister by the past two years? He is going to have the

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Super planning restrictions, Middle England is not going to like it,

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but he lacks a fight that suits him. The Telegraph is going to oppose it.

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It is ideal for him, but it is difficult to work out economic glee

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how this is going to get the economy moving. There seems to be a

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strange love affair between the Government and the housebuilding

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industry. They seem to think the way to get the economy moving is to

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grant favours to the industry. But Spain and Ireland found this was

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not the case. When Government feels the market, disaster is not far

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behind. Everybody is in favour of infrastructure. But it is not

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necessarily the best and the quickest and even if they succeed

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in easing the planning rules, what Mr Barack Obama said were shovelled

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moving jobs, there are not many. you look at building schools for

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the future, there were lots of projects that could be kick-started.

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But they are cancelled and great deal of social housing. The

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developers themselves are sitting on 300,000 plots with planning

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permission ready to go. They will not go because the demand is not

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there. If I was the Government I would say, we will withdraw

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planning permission unless you start building. There are lots of

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ways the Government can strong arm the industry instead of assuming

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they will do it for them. The housing market is complicated. You

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want house prices to come down, on the other hand you need it to be

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profitable to build and it is a difficult balance. Polly is saying

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this attempt to jump-start the British economy will involve the

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Government saying, we are going to restore all the programmes be

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cancelled a couple of years ago. How does that work? For a start

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they could not afford it and even it they could, right now the

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British economy has got this habit of when you go through a

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construction boom EU import workers rather than shortening the British

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dole queues. The majority of jobs created since the Government came

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to power have gone to foreign-born workers. What they should be doing

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is cutting the taxes of the low- paid and have an incentive to leave

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benefits and get back to work. If you borrow lots of money and higher

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lots of people it is a very blunt instrument. If they went down this

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road, when would we see growth return? You say these things are

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ready to be done quite quickly. Even quickly in these circumstances

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takes a while and then that money... Not many people would be employed.

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The money then has to percolate through the economy from their

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wages. Of course it is not the only thing you should do. You should

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stop a lot of the cuts now. We have only had 12% of the cuts announced,

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88% are still to come. A huge hit is going to come in the next year

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when unemployment will rise steeply next year. Stop doing that, stop

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digging when you are in a hole and making it worse. How much bigger?

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Quite a bit bigger, it has never been cheaper for the Government to

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borrow. The size of the deficit is no constraint on the Government at

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all? Not no constraint, but you could do a lot more. People like

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the IMF are now saying austerity is making matters worse. A bit of

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stimulus and getting growth that might be worth the price of

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borrowing more for now. Government is borrowing �250

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million a day. They are borrowing to pay for the unemployed. It is

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not working. I do not think if they were borrowing 280 million that

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would make much of a difference. What George Osborne is announcing

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now about Government guarantees for more building and projects, none of

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that will be real. If it were real, it would have to go on to the

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borrowing books and it is not going to. It would be Enron style

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accounting. These guarantees will not be worth the paper they are not

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yet written on. I were happy think about that. Either they are genuine

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guarantees or they are not and I think they are not. It is sub-prime

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business. A new term means it must be time for a quiz for Fraser and

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Polly. The question for today is all about Margaret Thatcher's

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dresses, moving away from the economy, some of which are up for

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auction at Christie's. Which of these does not belong to Margaret

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Thatcher. There is one little sartorial number that does not

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quite fit her style. We will give you a bit of time to get your heads

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around that halfway through the show.

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Fraser said Margaret Thatcher's dresses are his specialist subject.

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I think we will move on. Apart from sorting out the economy,

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what else have the political leaders got to look forward to as

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the nights draw in? We are expecting a reshuffle quite soon,

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leadership plots are growing by the day and there is always personality

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clashes which add to the gaiety of the nation. It is business as usual.

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It is the start of a new term and for the party leaders memories of

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summer holiday fun are already fading fast. David Cameron is back

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in the classroom and needs to assert his authority with a

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decisive reshuffle. It is going to be difficult if big figures like

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George Osborne, William Hague and Theresa May stay put. Lib Dems at

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the Cabinet table are going nowhere. He needs to answer criticism from

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the right of his party after a summer of nasty name-calling. One

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backbencher suggested he was a Mars, another a Lib Dem chambermaid. Many

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are urging him to pursue a distinctive Conservative pro-growth

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qualities. One MP quest and Nick Clegg's leadership and one said he

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was a cork bobbing on the waves with no strategic vision. He will

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be under pressure to distance the Lib Dems from the Conservatives at

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the party conference. The suggestion his latest wealth tax

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idea was written by young kids in Downing Street may not help. Ed

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Miliband should have less difficulty maintaining order. His

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MPs know they have a ten-point lead in the polls. But this summer has

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been punctuated by rumours of staff and hostility by shadowed

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Chancellor Ed Balls leaving some to wonder if a feud to rival Tony

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Blair and Gordon Brown could be brewing. James Landale is also back

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from his holidays with a brand-new uniform and a pencil case and joins

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us now. How dramatic and this reshuffle be if nobody is wanting

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to buy it? Some people will resist, that always happens during a

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reshuffle. This will be a test of the prime minister's authority, man

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or mouse to use a phrase which is being invoked by one Conservative

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MP. The interesting test one not just be has the Prime Minister

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asserted authority? But has he signalled any change of policy?

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What matters is does he changed policy? Does he poured example

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signal a change on policy towards Heathrow Mr Garbutt does he take

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Ken Clarke out of justice? The other key test will be party

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management. Does he do it well and does he wield the axe in a way that

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minimises the number of unhappy bunnies? It could pose a lot of

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problems by David Cameron as he runs up with the election. We are

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expecting that in the next 36 hours. What about Nick Clegg? Name-calling

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from some in his party as well? How vulnerable is he? If you talk to

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some people they say it is amazing it has taken this long for people

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on the fringes to call for his head. For the first time you have MPs and

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peers saying it openly and in public and On the Record that there

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should be a change of leadership. People around Nick Clegg say they

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are not worried, but it shows that he is under increasing pressure as

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he makes policy choices in the run up to the next election. He is now

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hemmed in not just by the fact he is in the coalition, but he is

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under increasing pressure from his own party to differentiate himself

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from the Conservative Party and that can have an impact on policy.

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The sun keeps shining and it is a beautiful day in London today.

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Nothing gets as more excited than a Cabinet reshuffle and we talk about

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it endlessly although we know nothing at all. Let me put this to

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you, given that the major positions are not going to change what this

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will amount to is a bunch of people that no-one has heard of getting

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the sack to be replaced by a bunch of people no-one has ever heard of.

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The night of the very short knives. It will make very little difference.

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I do not think Cabinet reshuffles be much anyway even with big jobs.

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Their only one that matters is Osborne. It all depends on the

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state of the economy. If the economy continues to crash in the

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way it has now, they have had it. The only interesting bit of news

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would be moving George Osborne, signalling there was a genuine, if

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you change in direction. No chance of that. There is no alternative,

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back to Mrs Thatcher. Why has there been no chance of Mr Osborne been

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removed? Because to use your tonsillar is a major admission of

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defeat for a British Government. It would send a very dangers message

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around the world that Britain is in panic when it comes to reducing the

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deficit. What would you gain from this? There is no suggestion

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William Hague has got some fantastic plan for growth. To take

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a drastic step like this you need to have a pretty good alternative

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and right now there is no suggestion there is anybody out

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there who could do a better job. Well he had the guts in a

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Government short of women and of non-white people, will he have the

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guts to sack the party chairwoman? That is a tricky one for him. She

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was quoted the other day saying she is not white and she is a woman and

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I think I fit the bill. Those are not credentials if you want to lead

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the Conservative Party. She should know better than anybody else.

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Again, I do not see how a new chairman would radically improve

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the prospects for the Government. It is not about the people, it is

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about the policies and the perception they are not working.

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Will he have the guts to throw Ken Clarke to the wolves? I think he

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probably well, given that Ken Clarke sounds like he has been

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embalmed prior to burial right now. I think he would probably cause the

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In a sense, what has happened, rather than running the coalition,

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they are struggling to run after their parties. I do not think

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either of them I am much trouble from their parties. Inevitably,

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noise on the right, noise on the left for Clegg, but basically

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neither of them are going to be removed in a hurry. The crisis for

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Clegg, he has to think that this had, comes nine months before the

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election, when he has to decide whether he will run again, should

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he stand down himself, and I think he should, new leader, a bit of a

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honeymoon, he might save a few seats. But not now, and I do not

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think any of this noise is politically significant. It is

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interesting ideologically, because the Tory backbenchers do not

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understand they have the most right-wing government we have ever

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had, far more right-wing than Mrs Thatcher. It is austerity, far more

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austere, although they would like more, like you do. You know, this

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is more austerity than we have ever had. The Lib Dems do not think it

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is a left-wing government. No, the Lib Dems think they have no choice.

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Labour does not think that. Labour thinks it is a very right-wing

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government. Labour thinks it is an extraordinary right-wing government,

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and next April big cuts hit. We are in the middle of the Paralympics.

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All of the disability cuts hit in a big way, 90,000 mobility scooters

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and motor ability cows are going to be repossessed next April. I do not

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think most MPs know this. They do not know what is going to hit them

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when 80% of extra cuts is still to come. Polly says Mr Cameron and Mr

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Clegg are not going to be challenged, but they are worried

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men. Mr Cameron is clearly worried about the lack of support on the

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back benches, hence the kind of article he wrote in the Mail on

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Sunday yesterday. Mr Clegg is worried he has no favours in the

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bag, otherwise he would not come out with the wealth tax plan.

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think a lot of Tory MPs are thinking of their futures, and they

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are not thinking of Kamal Clegg as party leaders, and that makes it

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more difficult to intimidate them. -- Cameron or Clegg. Nick Clegg has

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got far more to worry about, because right now the Lib Dems have

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seen half of their support eliminated, and they reckon that

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the Tory embrace is toxic. When he was attacked by Lord Smith of

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Lifton, didn't you have to Google that was?! Matthew Oakeshott, rent-

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a-quote. He is a powerful player, because he is a surrogate for Vince

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Cable. I think he speaks for Vince Cable, they are very close.

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much should we make, or is it just Tory wishful thinking, of the

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divisions between Mr Ed and Mr Ed? I think almost nothing. It came out

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of nowhere, a real Auguste story that came out of a poll which

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showed that by 2% Ed B had slightly more favourable points, and I do

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not see this. I think it is true, and I have been told, that if

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Miliband loses the next election, there will be another leadership,

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Ed Balls would stand aside for Yvette Cooper, that he has given up

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leadership ambitions himself. So whatever this friction, which is

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inevitable, because most of the Labour Party wants Ed Balls to go

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for a bigger and bolder and austerity movement, so it is about

:19:26.:19:36.
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policy, not leadership. There is fiction, and Labour has got to get

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a head of the game and be quite a lot bolder. Should Labour be

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further ahead in the polls? I think 10 points is not bad. At this time

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when we have a flatlining economy, coalition ripping itself apart?

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gives them a comfortable overall majority if there were an election.

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We know the midterm lead is bigger than reality. We will see what the

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reality is. New line assuming we are in a time like any other. I see

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no reason why this government should pick up. If Cameron could

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not win against Gordon Brown on his knees and a Labour Party exhausted,

:20:10.:20:16.

how on earth is he going to do better next time? Isn't that the

:20:16.:20:20.

key watershed moment this summer, when it really dawned on the Tories

:20:20.:20:26.

that their chances of an overall majority in 2015 was probably the

:20:26.:20:30.

least likely outcome of the election? You are right. Before the

:20:30.:20:33.

summer, the tourists thought the balance of probability was then

:20:33.:20:38.

being re-elected. After the boundary review was kibosh, your

:20:38.:20:42.

average Tory now thinks it is more likely they will lose than win.

:20:42.:20:47.

This changes the way in which they behave and plan. That shows how

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dumb they are, because they've brought about these backbenchers

:20:50.:20:56.

who brought about the non-happening of the boundary changes. They have

:20:56.:21:01.

just woken up to what they have done! Tory backbenchers done?

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I will not be repeating that, it is not just MPs who are going back to

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school this week. Many pupils will be returning to school and some two

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new schools entirely. Some 55 new free schools will be opening this

:21:15.:21:18.

month. They are state-funded but not under local authority control

:21:18.:21:23.

and they have more control over teaching and budgets. This morning

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Education Secretary Michael Gove has been promoting his policy. He

:21:25.:21:28.

was asked if money was being taken away from existing schools to pay

:21:28.:21:33.

for the new ones. We desperately need free schools. People need a

:21:33.:21:37.

chance to send their children to a good school where schools are not

:21:37.:21:40.

good enough. People also need additional places because the

:21:40.:21:44.

population is growing. If all we were doing was hoping free schools,

:21:44.:21:49.

we would be open to criticism, but we are doing much more. We are in

:21:49.:21:53.

the largest number of New Academy Schools that were underperforming

:21:53.:21:56.

under local authority control but now have a great new head teachers

:21:56.:22:02.

and a chance for the children in them to flourish. We are joined by

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Labour Shadow Education Minister Karen Buck and by Craig Whitaker, a

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Conservative member of the Education Select Committee. Craig

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Whitaker, first of all, we heard Michael Gove say that these schools

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are a success, but they are unproven as yet. We do not know how

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successful they will be. What we do know is that internationally, when

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you give schools autonomy away from local authority control, give them

:22:25.:22:28.

control of budgets and what they offer the local community, they

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work incredibly well, so that is the basis on which the free school

:22:32.:22:37.

and academies are being put in place. But what do free schools

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bring to state education that cannot be achieved in existing

:22:40.:22:44.

comprehensive schools if it is about raising standards? A whole

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heap of people and the country are incredibly frustrated with local

:22:47.:22:51.

schools. They cannot get in them, a lot are underperforming, so it is a

:22:51.:22:54.

great opportunity to get local parents and teachers involved in

:22:54.:22:58.

setting up their own school, and that is what the programme is about.

:22:58.:23:03.

Are you against, in principle, the idea of free schools? What we need

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to have his schools where they are needed, where they meet parental

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demand, which is a real issue about free schools. I think the idea of

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the dead hand of local authority control is a red herring and has

:23:14.:23:18.

been for many, many years. Local authorities do not manage and

:23:18.:23:22.

control everything that goes on in local schools. There is a very high

:23:22.:23:27.

degree of autonomy within schools. The Academy Schools, which was set

:23:27.:23:31.

up under the last Labour government, enjoyed a degree of freedom as well.

:23:31.:23:35.

The point with free schools, I have one in my constituency which opened

:23:35.:23:40.

last year, it is called a free school but it is actually an

:23:40.:23:44.

academy, it is fine, it is needed. There are other schools where there

:23:44.:23:48.

has not been demand and they do not meet the requirements. Andrew

:23:48.:23:52.

Adonis said that Labour should be claiming the free schools policy as

:23:52.:23:56.

its own because they are academies in all but name. Frankly, I do not

:23:57.:24:01.

care what you call an initiative. What I care about is spending the

:24:01.:24:05.

money where there is demand, and in fact interestingly, in his last

:24:05.:24:09.

year, we have seen an increase in a 3,000 children whose parents cannot

:24:09.:24:13.

find any place for them at all. The fact is we have a �900 million

:24:13.:24:16.

programme investing in free schools which is clearly not meeting demand,

:24:16.:24:20.

which is not preventing parents from being left with no school at

:24:20.:24:23.

all for their children, and which is doing nothing for the

:24:23.:24:27.

overwhelming majority of pupils. Picking up on that point, if they

:24:27.:24:31.

are in areas where there are already good comprehensive schools,

:24:31.:24:35.

then it is a waste of money, isn't it? It could be better spent

:24:35.:24:40.

improving existing schools. No, not at all, because the free school

:24:40.:24:45.

programme is part of a much bigger picture, you know. It is about

:24:45.:24:48.

academies, too. You accept they are in areas where there is no demand?

:24:48.:24:53.

They are in areas where there is a chronic shortage of places, where

:24:53.:24:57.

local authorities have not been able to create places quickly

:24:57.:25:01.

enough, and that is where the free schools generally pick up and fill

:25:01.:25:06.

a niche. You agree with Karen Buck that they could be taking money

:25:06.:25:11.

away from other schools, and that is self-defeating? Not at all.

:25:11.:25:15.

Diversity and autonomy are the key things that will drive standards in

:25:15.:25:19.

the education system. One thing that we know is that standards have

:25:19.:25:22.

been slipping for a very long time, and we need to raise standards, and

:25:22.:25:26.

if that means giving more autonomy, more diversity within our community

:25:26.:25:33.

schools, that is what we need to do. On the issue of raising standards,

:25:33.:25:36.

with the free schools to raise standards in the sense that they

:25:36.:25:41.

have marvellous GCSE results or there is a rise in measures of

:25:41.:25:45.

children's ability, will that be a good thing, regardless of where the

:25:45.:25:49.

money comes from? Of course, but only if it raises it across the

:25:49.:25:53.

piece. If they have simply creamed off the best kids and the average

:25:53.:25:58.

of the area stays the same, nobody is checking. What really matters is

:25:58.:26:02.

that 20 of the schools which are opening now are in areas which do

:26:02.:26:05.

not need them. They are using money from that area to build those

:26:05.:26:09.

schools, taking away from schools that desperately needed, creating

:26:09.:26:14.

surplus of spaces. Free schools are not one thing. Some are very good,

:26:14.:26:17.

set up by groups of teachers or other schools, some of them are

:26:17.:26:21.

religious schools, which we absolutely do not need more of.

:26:21.:26:25.

Free school covers a multitude of the good and bad, so we should not

:26:25.:26:29.

talk about them as one type of thing. It depends where and what.

:26:29.:26:33.

There is a question about regulation. They say they are not

:26:33.:26:37.

selective, but is there a bit of self-selection. In the end, they

:26:37.:26:41.

are getting better pupils, so they will get better results, so it will

:26:41.:26:45.

not be down to improving standards or better teachers. That is not

:26:45.:26:51.

true. It is amazing to say Polly -- it is amazing to here police say

:26:51.:26:55.

that these schools are not needed. We are moving into a wonderful year,

:26:55.:27:00.

moving away from the idea that politicians say this school is

:27:00.:27:04.

needed, into an era where parents and teachers decide what is needed

:27:04.:27:07.

and where. There is an incredible power flip going on away from the

:27:07.:27:11.

government towards teachers, and it is really heartening to see. It is

:27:11.:27:16.

about parents demand. We must not let the tail WAG the Dog. Of course,

:27:16.:27:21.

Polly is right, there are examples of free schools being set up which

:27:21.:27:25.

clearly meets demand, which are based on both parents of and

:27:25.:27:31.

teacher requests, but some are not, and it is not a good use of public

:27:31.:27:33.

resources to spend such an amount of money on a small number of

:27:33.:27:36.

schools which may or may not have anything to do with meeting local

:27:36.:27:41.

demand. But you are not going to close any of these schools if you

:27:41.:27:45.

were to come into power, because if they do the right thing, they

:27:45.:27:48.

should stay. You have to look at the schools in existence and see

:27:48.:27:52.

what they are doing and see if they are meeting demand, look at the

:27:52.:27:55.

provision of service in and around them. We are not going to go

:27:55.:27:59.

stomping in and closing popular and successful local schools of course

:27:59.:28:05.

saying that the overwhelming majority of children in our schools

:28:05.:28:10.

need to be served well, not have money being distorted for a tiny

:28:10.:28:16.

number of pupils in a scheme which simply takes a box and allows

:28:16.:28:19.

Michael Gove to claim a revolution in schools, which is not touching

:28:19.:28:25.

the overwhelming majority of pupils. Briefly on the sort of story on the

:28:25.:28:30.

GCSE results, the number of Dead In The Boot to C grades fell for the

:28:30.:28:36.

first time in the history of the GCSE results. -- A to C grades.

:28:36.:28:42.

That is because the boundaries have been reset by the examination

:28:42.:28:45.

boards, and there is an absolute stopping of this dumbing-down and

:28:45.:28:52.

sliding towards, you know, as as a nation doing worse. Standards have

:28:52.:28:56.

got to raise, and this is a great start, I think, in lifting

:28:56.:29:00.

standards back to where they should be. The end of dumbing-down under

:29:00.:29:05.

Labour. Pupils who got exactly the same marks in the June examinations,

:29:05.:29:09.

or in some cases better than they did in the January examination, but

:29:09.:29:13.

who failed whereas in January they would have passed. It could be as

:29:13.:29:18.

many as 65,000 students who on not able, in some cases, to proceed on

:29:18.:29:21.

to A-levels, apprenticeships and further education, which is what we

:29:21.:29:26.

want them to do. We have asked the Select Committee to raise in the

:29:26.:29:30.

look into what has happened, and it is essential, it is a question of

:29:30.:29:34.

fairness that pupils who got as good marks as they did in the

:29:34.:29:36.

earlier part of being in a summer examination should not be

:29:36.:29:40.

disadvantaged as a result. Karen Buck, Craig Whitaker, thank you

:29:40.:29:43.

both very much. It is tough being the leader of a

:29:43.:29:47.

political party, just as Nick Clegg, or David Cameron, or Ed Miliband,

:29:47.:29:51.

for that matter. But one party leader is feeling on top of the

:29:51.:29:58.

world, Natalie Bennett. Who?! Come on, Natalie Bennett, elected the

:29:58.:30:01.

new leader of the Green Party of England and Wales. We can talk to

:30:01.:30:06.

them now. Welcome to the Daily Politics. It is a bit of a poisoned

:30:06.:30:12.

chalice, this, isn't it? Rightly or wrongly, many voters think Green is

:30:12.:30:15.

for the good times, they do not want to be green when they are

:30:15.:30:18.

worried about their next pay cheque or whether they are going to keep

:30:18.:30:28.
:30:28.:30:29.

Absolutely not. We understand there is a great political opportunity

:30:29.:30:34.

for the Green Party at the moment. Voters are looking around saying

:30:34.:30:38.

there are three parties offering exactly the same. The Green Party

:30:38.:30:43.

is offering the chance for a different kind of economy, where we

:30:43.:30:50.

invest in the future, housing, jobs, renewable energy and interest in

:30:50.:30:53.

keeping people warmer in comfortable homes, and this is

:30:53.:30:59.

attractive to more and more people. Why did only 3000 members of your

:30:59.:31:04.

party bothered to vote in the election? If you hold an election

:31:04.:31:09.

during the month of August, you would expect that turn out not to

:31:09.:31:17.

be high. People could not decide and that is the way it works, and

:31:17.:31:22.

they felt they did not want to vote. But we have a vision for the future

:31:22.:31:27.

of Britain that is attractive to large numbers of voters and I am

:31:27.:31:32.

confident we can elect many more councillors. How many people voted

:31:32.:31:42.
:31:42.:31:42.

for you? I think the actual, final count was 42% of the first

:31:42.:31:48.

preference. Her many? I do not know the numbers of hand. You do not

:31:48.:31:55.

know how many people have voted for you? No, but I know I got about 500

:31:55.:32:01.

more votes than the second person. He was an MEP in the north-west.

:32:01.:32:08.

a year's time if we were speaking to you again, what were you have

:32:08.:32:13.

achieved? I will aim in the next two years, it is a two-year period,

:32:13.:32:18.

to see that we have collected many more councillors up and down the

:32:18.:32:21.

country and that in the European elections week treble our number of

:32:21.:32:26.

MEPs, which will mean many more people in England and Wales will

:32:26.:32:30.

have an elected Green representative working for them.

:32:30.:32:35.

You will treble the number of MEPs you have? That is what we are

:32:35.:32:41.

aiming for. If you take a blanket swing, it needs a 1.3% swing and

:32:41.:32:47.

that is achievable. Event that you your predecessors have staked the

:32:47.:32:52.

Green Party on the left of British politics, and some would say the

:32:52.:32:56.

far left, if you are eight Tory inclined green or a moderate

:32:56.:33:04.

inclined Green, they cannot vote for you, can they? I think policies

:33:04.:33:08.

like the minimum wage should be a living wage, that is a policy I

:33:08.:33:12.

find resonates with people who live in multi-million-pound houses or

:33:12.:33:19.

who live in council estates, saying people should get benefits for a

:33:19.:33:22.

decent light. That his policies people right across the political

:33:22.:33:27.

spectrum understand. Do you also think the maximum wage should be 10

:33:27.:33:31.

times the minimum wage? We do indeed and that is a policy we find

:33:31.:33:36.

is also very popular. We made a great deal of that in the London

:33:36.:33:42.

elections and we finished third. Let me get this right, let's be

:33:42.:33:47.

generous and say the living wage would be �20,000 a year. It is your

:33:47.:33:52.

policy that no-one in this country should be paid more than 2000 --

:33:52.:33:57.

�200,000 a year? That is something we want to work towards two and

:33:57.:34:02.

that is perfectly enough to live on decently. So farewell the English

:34:02.:34:10.

Premier League? Well, I think we would have a healthier team and a

:34:10.:34:16.

much better English national team if we did that. But there are many

:34:16.:34:20.

industries in this country, I picked for all because it is the

:34:20.:34:24.

most easily recognised, there are many recognised industries in this

:34:24.:34:28.

country that depend on paying their top people more than �200,000 a

:34:28.:34:33.

year. We can agree the bankers are overwhelmingly over pay, but there

:34:33.:34:38.

are many industries from the head of Rolls Royce to the head of

:34:38.:34:43.

Airbus in Britain who will not stay if you keep their salaries at

:34:43.:34:49.

�200,000. What would you do? First of all, it is worth saying we are

:34:49.:34:53.

not talking about doing this in terms of putting out legislation.

:34:53.:34:58.

We want to explain why it is a good idea and have it happen in the

:34:58.:35:02.

public sector and work on from there. You mention the bankers and

:35:02.:35:05.

we have got this great talent by paying them lots of money, but it

:35:05.:35:10.

has broken the world economy. Giving people huge incentive

:35:10.:35:16.

payments and huge bonuses, it encourages people to play again in

:35:16.:35:21.

the system, not do their job well. Most people want to do a decent job

:35:21.:35:25.

during the day, whether you ran a national company or work in a call

:35:25.:35:30.

centre. Natalie Bennett, thank you for joining us. It is a very green

:35:30.:35:35.

backdrop, it looks perfect for your election today. Polly Toynbee, D

:35:35.:35:40.

the Greens have an opportunity now given a lot of younger Lib-Dem

:35:40.:35:44.

voters, particularly the students who are hardly likely to queue up

:35:44.:35:49.

to vote again, do the Greens have an opportunity or his Labour were

:35:50.:35:54.

likely to get the next votes? think the Greens have done very

:35:54.:36:00.

well, they have done very well in Brighton and they have got Brighton

:36:00.:36:04.

council and they beat the Lib Dems in the mayoral elections. There is

:36:04.:36:09.

room in the spectrum for a party to the left of Labour. It used to be

:36:09.:36:15.

called the Lib Dems. Yes, indeed. We are not talking about outrageous

:36:15.:36:21.

left like in the days of the eight and sees -- 80s, the Militant

:36:21.:36:28.

tendency, this is moderate staff. It is not old fashioned Labour left.

:36:28.:36:33.

They still want to repeal the union legislation, dove. They want to

:36:33.:36:37.

make friends with the unions and they are quite keen to do that and

:36:37.:36:40.

quite keen to attract some of that element, but they are of a

:36:40.:36:46.

different breed and I think they will attract quite a lot of votes,

:36:46.:36:50.

particularly the Lib Dem ones. There is just time to find out the

:36:50.:36:56.

answer to our quiz. It was not very difficult, particularly for you,

:36:56.:37:02.

Fraser, be an expert on Margaret Thatcher's dresses. Which of these

:37:02.:37:07.

does not belong to Margaret Thatcher? I am going for the pop

:37:07.:37:14.

left because I think Meryl Streep war that in the film. Did you? That

:37:14.:37:19.

is a counter intuitive answer. think it is the pink dress, I think

:37:19.:37:25.

it is not her. You are right. I like the idea you think Meryl

:37:25.:37:32.

Streep war that dress. Did you say? Yes. You are more observant that I

:37:32.:37:42.

am. Polly is right, it is the obvious one. Quite rightly for a

:37:42.:37:46.

lady like her, she never exposed her shoulders. They are bound to

:37:46.:37:53.

raise about �1,500. So of the others were really lovely. There

:37:53.:37:57.

was a lovely pink suit number and I thought, I like that, I will buy

:37:57.:38:03.

that. The Greens want to abolish GDP as a

:38:03.:38:12.

measure of economic success. So did David Cameron. Thank you to both of

:38:12.:38:19.

you for being on our first show of the new season. I had a lovely

:38:19.:38:23.

couple of weeks in the south of France and Jo went camping in

:38:23.:38:28.

Dorset. We have no idea when Giles is planning to come back, but we

:38:28.:38:31.

had one of his unpaid work experience chappies to keep an eye

:38:31.:38:41.

on what happened at Westminster during the summer holidays.

:38:41.:38:46.

Thank you, I had a lovely time. While you have all been sunning

:38:46.:38:50.

yourself, I had a holiday at Westminster, keeping an eye on

:38:50.:38:56.

goings on at S W one and my case is packed full of souvenirs. What have

:38:56.:39:06.
:39:06.:39:06.

we got here? An Olympic mascot in gold. David Cameron presided over a

:39:06.:39:10.

Games that was virtually hitched free and a gold rush for Team GB.

:39:10.:39:16.

The effect on the opinion polls? Virtually negligible. But perhaps

:39:16.:39:20.

the biggest winner was Boris, hanging around everywhere, most

:39:21.:39:30.
:39:31.:39:31.

notably on this Olympic zip wire. Everybody he thinks they have

:39:31.:39:36.

reached the highest level, there is no such thing when it comes to the

:39:36.:39:41.

Olympics as this. After two years in the job the Conservative MP for

:39:41.:39:46.

Corby stood down to spend more time with her family. Bring on that by-

:39:46.:39:50.

election. My mug from the House of Lords did not get smashed in

:39:50.:39:56.

transit. Unlike Nick Clegg's plans for a reform of the upper chamber

:39:56.:39:59.

which collapsed because of a lack of support. The Conservative Party

:39:59.:40:04.

is not honouring the commitment to Lords reform and as a result part

:40:04.:40:09.

of our contract has now been broken. He withdrew his support for changes

:40:09.:40:12.

to constituency boundaries, which could have benefited the

:40:12.:40:18.

Conservatives. Why you were hopping on and off real ones of these,

:40:18.:40:23.

Westminster briefly went plain crazy. A prominent Conservative

:40:23.:40:27.

backbencher reignited the row over a third runway at Heathrow.

:40:27.:40:31.

realise we have to do something a bit more to get investment in this

:40:31.:40:36.

country, we have to do a bit more to stimulate the economy. This was

:40:36.:40:42.

all I had to read, a GCSE English revision guide. The Education

:40:42.:40:45.

Secretary Michael Gove denied he pressurised exam boards to be

:40:45.:40:50.

tougher after the number of pupils getting top GCSE grades fell for

:40:50.:40:54.

the first time ever. And you always find a bit of leftover holiday

:40:54.:40:58.

money in the bottom of your suitcase. Except the Government did

:40:58.:41:04.

not. In July George Osborne had to borrow an extra �600 million, even

:41:04.:41:07.

though experts had predicted the public purse would show a surplus

:41:07.:41:14.

of more than �2 billion. So, like the weather this summer, political

:41:14.:41:19.

fortunes have been a bit mixed. At least if you have not gone anywhere,

:41:19.:41:23.

you cannot have the holiday blues when you get back.

:41:23.:41:28.

Adam Fleming reporting. We have been joined by three MPs who will

:41:28.:41:34.

be with us until the end of the programme. The Conservative MP

:41:34.:41:39.

Nadim Zahawi, Labour's Tenby Perkins and Duncan Hames for the

:41:39.:41:45.

Lib Dems. Let's rewind a few weeks because it was a busy summer. Lords

:41:45.:41:50.

reform was dropped, Duncan Hames, an issue close to the Lib Dems. Was

:41:50.:41:57.

it right to drop it? Yes, it was the right decision. There was not a

:41:57.:42:02.

majority to bring the legislation about and the Labour Party made it

:42:02.:42:06.

clear they might claim to support the principle, but they were going

:42:06.:42:11.

to obstruct the means of passing the laws necessary. Do you agree

:42:11.:42:15.

with Nick Clegg when he said the Lib Dems would not be supporting

:42:15.:42:18.

legislation for boundary changes which could deliver 20 extra seats

:42:18.:42:23.

for the Tories? I agree with him and I support him in that and he

:42:23.:42:27.

will have the full support of the party as well. You see it as a

:42:27.:42:32.

broken contract, what do you say to that? I think it is sad because

:42:32.:42:37.

Lords reform was not linked with boundaries. It was clearly linked

:42:37.:42:41.

with the alternative vote referendum which we delivered on.

:42:41.:42:45.

If they had won that, would they then have delivered the boundaries

:42:45.:42:51.

or not? We could get on with reform now without elections. I have spent

:42:51.:42:56.

10 days in America of serving their system. Any American would say you

:42:56.:43:02.

do not need to follow our example and set up a Senate and put a

:43:02.:43:07.

gridlock in Government. We could reform the Government now, get rid

:43:07.:43:10.

of the criminals and the hereditary is, but sadly we are not seeing

:43:10.:43:15.

that. Is this your attempt to get the Lib Dems to back legislation

:43:16.:43:20.

for the boundary changes? No, I think the boundary changes is

:43:20.:43:24.

something that needs to happen and is fair. I hope the Prime Minister

:43:24.:43:30.

does bring them vote to the house. You think it is to the advantage of

:43:30.:43:35.

the Conservative Party, but it is making the system fairer. Do we

:43:35.:43:39.

want a democracy where people in the same size constituencies elect

:43:39.:43:44.

MPs quizzed Denmark or do we want Labour to get fewer of votes and

:43:44.:43:51.

form a Government? It is totally wrong. The 12 largest parliamentary

:43:51.:43:56.

seats are Labour seats. The whole point of the Boundary Change, about

:43:56.:44:00.

having more equal seats, was put into the purposes of the Boundary

:44:00.:44:06.

Commission initially and we support their work. But you do not support

:44:06.:44:10.

the legislation because you are worried about it giving an

:44:10.:44:14.

advantage to the Conservatives? Every time you do every

:44:14.:44:18.

organisation of the boundaries, you will benefit the Conservative Party.

:44:18.:44:23.

The Conservatives always had a big belief in the link between the MP

:44:23.:44:27.

and the constituency and it there had been more tolerant, you could

:44:27.:44:33.

have delivered more equal size of boundaries, without the need for us

:44:33.:44:37.

to break up communities. without the boundary changes the

:44:37.:44:46.

task of the Conservative Party, the pollster has said, it will be

:44:46.:44:52.

difficult for them to win the next election. This is just to create a

:44:52.:44:58.

level playing-field. What do you say to that? Your spike was not

:44:58.:45:08.
:45:08.:45:09.

part of the deal, it was the ad The deal was the coalition

:45:09.:45:12.

agreement, all of it, and the deal was broken by not delivering on

:45:12.:45:16.

Lords reform, and this is a response which ensures you cannot

:45:16.:45:20.

have a situation where one group of MPs decide which part of the

:45:20.:45:24.

agreement will happen. Is it going to fracture the coalition? I think

:45:24.:45:29.

we are going to move on, because there's more to it. A Tory MPs

:45:29.:45:34.

going to draw a line under it? have got great respect for Duncan.

:45:34.:45:38.

If he reads the coalition agreement, we have delivered on House of Lords

:45:38.:45:43.

reform. I am talking about relations between the parties?

:45:43.:45:47.

the nation cares about, and we will come to it in a second with Andrew

:45:47.:45:50.

is the economy. As a coalition government, we need to deliver on

:45:50.:45:57.

that, because that is what we will be judged on in 2015. So what is

:45:57.:46:03.

this special ingredient for economic prosperity? George

:46:03.:46:06.

Osborne's latest answer is �50 billion worth of infrastructure

:46:06.:46:11.

guarantees, not spending, guarantees, more planning reforms,

:46:11.:46:15.

and a review of airport capacity in the south-east of England.

:46:15.:46:18.

Listening to Nick Clegg and the Lib Dems is a short-term wealth tax on

:46:18.:46:21.

the filthy rich. And then Conservative backbenchers might

:46:21.:46:27.

like the Chancellor to implement traditional Tory policies, bring

:46:27.:46:32.

down public spending, cut taxes. Here is David Davis speaking in the

:46:32.:46:42.
:46:42.:46:42.

last few minutes. The economics, to understand should not be to excuse.

:46:42.:46:46.

The circumstances should not be an excuse for inaction, they should be

:46:46.:46:52.

a spur to dramatic action. Some will say that there are some who

:46:52.:46:56.

believe that our comparative decline is inevitable. They think

:46:56.:47:02.

that the growth of the great low- cost powers, China, India, Brazil,

:47:02.:47:07.

the other emerging markets, make the West and competitive and make

:47:07.:47:15.

Britain in particular uncompetitive. There -- and competitive. That we

:47:15.:47:20.

face a future of poor growth, low prospects, that we cannot compete,

:47:20.:47:28.

that this is the new normal. This is fatalistic nonsense. David

:47:28.:47:32.

Davies, he is still speaking, so we are not sure what he is proposing,

:47:32.:47:37.

but that was the beginning of his analysis. Nadhim Zahawi, if we look

:47:37.:47:41.

at what George Osborne was talking about yesterday, he is talking

:47:41.:47:46.

about billions of pounds worth of infrastructure guarantees from a

:47:46.:47:50.

government that continues Labour cuts in infrastructure spending. He

:47:50.:47:53.

is talking about more planning reform, you are already had to

:47:53.:47:57.

reform the planning system, and you had to water down your reforms. A

:47:57.:48:01.

review of airport capacity in the south-east, the transport

:48:01.:48:07.

department had been conducting that review, but you said you would not

:48:07.:48:11.

approve a third runway at Heathrow. So it is either a U-turn Orbit does

:48:11.:48:15.

not add up to a row of beans. not agree with you. You will not be

:48:15.:48:20.

surprised if I say that, because what was wrong with that was if you

:48:20.:48:26.

look at where we are today, the private sector has created 900,000

:48:26.:48:29.

jobs in the last two years. You are right to say we have not got the

:48:30.:48:34.

growth we thought we would get, but we have had eurozone Armageddon, so

:48:34.:48:39.

coupled with that we are not in a bad place. Up until last week, we

:48:39.:48:43.

were borrowing a much higher rate than America. Last week we borrowed

:48:43.:48:46.

at high -- lower rates than even America, so we must be doing

:48:46.:48:50.

something right. It cannot all be bad news. You're also borrowing

:48:50.:48:55.

more. We are, because growth has not come through, because there is

:48:55.:48:59.

a lack of confidence, but I used to be in business, and businessmen and

:48:59.:49:01.

women will be looking at the eurozone headlines and worrying

:49:01.:49:07.

about investing. Their awarding about 750 billion at the moment. --

:49:07.:49:11.

they are hoarding. That is exactly the point, because business is not

:49:11.:49:17.

short of money. Business is sitting on billions of pounds. They do not

:49:17.:49:21.

invest it because they do not trust your government, that is why.

:49:21.:49:24.

Guarantees only go to businesses that need to borrow. Big business

:49:24.:49:28.

does not need to borrow, it has money in the bank. The question you

:49:28.:49:32.

have to ask is why his business not investing when it has got the cash,

:49:32.:49:36.

and it must be something to do with your government? It is something to

:49:37.:49:40.

do with the government, absolutely, but it is more to do with overall

:49:40.:49:44.

confidence. If you were in business today, would you be putting money

:49:44.:49:49.

into Europe as a whole, which we are part of, our manufacturing, the

:49:49.:49:52.

bulk of it goes to Europe, would you be effectively making that

:49:52.:49:56.

decision? That is the big part of it, but put that aside for a minute.

:49:56.:50:01.

What can we do here to make that decision happen. Things like

:50:01.:50:06.

learning from Germany, where you take away bureaucracy, where people

:50:06.:50:12.

can hold one or two or three many jobs, and the employer pays a flat

:50:12.:50:16.

rate, but the employer has the freedom, if their investment goes

:50:16.:50:19.

wrong, they can go back to a smaller business. That is the sort

:50:19.:50:25.

of thing you'll be hearing, I hope, from the Treasury. Really?! I have

:50:25.:50:30.

not heard that! We have done a hell of a lot on red tape. Are you happy

:50:30.:50:35.

with that? I'm afraid if right sizing is still a term used to

:50:35.:50:38.

describe having fewer employees, we are not getting the answer right.

:50:38.:50:42.

We want to increase employment. There has been nearly one million

:50:42.:50:45.

more jobs in the private sector since this Government started, but

:50:45.:50:48.

we need more measures to ensure that those businesses can grow and

:50:48.:50:53.

that there is more activity to support employment, because it is

:50:53.:50:55.

only with high levels of employment that we will have consumer

:50:55.:50:59.

confidence. Your man Vince Cable does not like the regulation and

:50:59.:51:03.

business. I do not think that is true. What has he the regulated?

:51:03.:51:08.

For example, there was a proposal about the size of businesses that

:51:08.:51:12.

had to have their accounts independently audited. That changed

:51:12.:51:18.

in that department,... That will give us a boom! It has released

:51:18.:51:22.

small businesses from red tape that they could have done without.

:51:22.:51:26.

one major deregulation measure that might grow I will tell you. I am

:51:26.:51:33.

asking him! I have just cited... Let's be honest, one major one,

:51:33.:51:36.

changing that for small businesses is not going to make Britain a

:51:36.:51:40.

tiger economy. I used to run a small business, and I could have

:51:40.:51:43.

done without having to pay accountant's fees on annual

:51:43.:51:50.

accounts. Labour's position is to have more stimulus, and in a sense

:51:50.:51:54.

what Mr Osborne is announcing is a kind of moving on to your side of

:51:54.:51:59.

the argument a bit. But what you can never tell us is how much more

:51:59.:52:04.

stimulus. I think we have laid out very specifically different

:52:04.:52:08.

strategies that would introduce growth, reversing the VAT increase,

:52:08.:52:13.

putting more money in people's pockets, national insurance break

:52:13.:52:17.

for small businesses to encourage them to employ. Remember, back in

:52:17.:52:21.

2010 we had growth in the economy, we actually had the first time in

:52:21.:52:27.

six is falling youth unemployment. We have seen a government coming in,

:52:27.:52:31.

George Osborne dampened down to that growth, and now what we are

:52:31.:52:34.

seeing is the Government constantly talking about growth but actually,

:52:34.:52:39.

as you have alluded to, delivering very little. No matter how quickly

:52:39.:52:43.

you get these infrastructure investments through, it will still

:52:43.:52:46.

be a while, and it will be even longer as the money percolates

:52:46.:52:53.

through the economy. If you cut VAT, you would immediately put �12

:52:53.:52:57.

billion into the pockets of the British people to spend tomorrow,

:52:57.:53:02.

why don't you do that? Because we have to be responsible. As I was

:53:02.:53:06.

saying about the confidence of the markets, we must be able to borrow,

:53:06.:53:09.

because we are borrowing an enormous amount of money. We have

:53:09.:53:13.

to convince the markets that we are going to balance the books by 2017,

:53:13.:53:17.

which is what the Chancellor is heading towards. You know you're

:53:17.:53:20.

not going to do that. You are going to borrow more money this year than

:53:20.:53:27.

last. Under Labour's plans, you had to borrow 201 billion more. Hold on

:53:27.:53:31.

a minute, you are planning to borrow more than Alistair Darling

:53:31.:53:35.

outlined before labour laws bar. You are going to borrow more

:53:35.:53:41.

between now and 2017 than Mr Darling was in Beijing -- was

:53:41.:53:45.

envisaging. The deficit is likely to be 14 billion higher this year

:53:45.:53:50.

and up to 27 billion higher next year. What he is saying is that it

:53:50.:53:53.

least if you do it in a way that puts money into people's pockets,

:53:53.:53:57.

you might get some growth. There is a perfect example of this happening

:53:57.:54:01.

in Denmark. They have had a new government that promise to do what

:54:01.:54:05.

Labour wants to do in this country, which is an unprecedented amount of

:54:05.:54:08.

more spending, which is what they criticised us for not doing, and

:54:08.:54:11.

look at what has happened. Three quarters of negative growth in

:54:11.:54:18.

Denmark... Like Britain? No, it is not the same thing, because we have

:54:18.:54:23.

a debt crisis. You cannot borrow your way out of a debt crisis.

:54:23.:54:28.

conference last year, Nick Clegg and Vince Cable promised, at the

:54:28.:54:32.

conference, there would be extra infrastructure spending. That is

:54:32.:54:36.

one year ago. What extra spending has there been? The green

:54:36.:54:39.

investment bank has started work a year early. It has not started

:54:39.:54:45.

lending any money! It has started making decisions about investment.

:54:45.:54:51.

It has not started borrowing yet... He promised one year ago, you have

:54:51.:54:56.

passed romance, give me one example. The decision to electrify the Great

:54:56.:55:00.

Western Railway, that is investing in infrastructure. When does that

:55:00.:55:05.

start? Well, the decision has been made, at such major projects need

:55:05.:55:10.

planning. You have at road projects, it is not fair to say that nothing

:55:10.:55:14.

has started. You can go to all parts of the country, you will see

:55:14.:55:18.

projects happening on the ground. At the last Lib Dem Conference,

:55:18.:55:22.

they promised an extra 5 billion over and above what was being

:55:22.:55:30.

promised. I just wanted to ask what was new, that was all in the plans.

:55:30.:55:33.

Let us know, we will put it up on the website.

:55:33.:55:38.

We at the Daily Politics No 8 and Lackham when we see one, so it is

:55:38.:55:47.

time for a Daily Politics special. -- No a bandwagon. As if our quiz

:55:47.:55:51.

was not enough, we have commissioned some extra-special

:55:51.:55:57.

Daily Politics mugs as prizes. We have gold, silver bronze logos. We

:55:57.:56:01.

do not have buzzers, we are not rich enough for that, so you will

:56:01.:56:04.

just have to put your hands up in a polite manner, and we will have to

:56:04.:56:08.

do it fairly quickly. Question number one about summer holidays,

:56:08.:56:18.
:56:18.:56:21.

In terms of summer holidays... Miliband! Why? David Cameron and

:56:21.:56:27.

Nick Clegg both went to Spain. good, one point. No. Two, in a

:56:27.:56:37.
:56:37.:56:42.

similar vein, which are these three No? Any clues? He was running the

:56:42.:56:48.

country? Oh, Theresa May. William Hague was running the country.

:56:48.:56:53.

is the opposite, Clegg is the odd one out, because both of them were

:56:53.:56:59.

running the country. No points for that, I am afraid. Number three,

:56:59.:57:03.

this famous picture that we saw earlier. Boris Johnson famously

:57:03.:57:07.

became stuck uneasy acquire over the summer, but can you complete

:57:07.:57:15.

his quote? -- stuck on a zip wire. It needs to go faster? Very good,

:57:15.:57:22.

Duncan. Louise Mensch announced, in a surprise announcement, that she

:57:22.:57:25.

was leaving Parliament to spend more time with her family, but how

:57:25.:57:34.

many days has she been an MP? Let's see how quickly you can work close.

:57:34.:57:43.

I will take the closest. 810. More than that. That was very close, 847.

:57:43.:57:52.

The 5th on, this is the favourite They have all been photographed

:57:52.:57:56.

doing the Mobot, except Prince Harry, who was photographed doing

:57:57.:58:06.
:58:07.:58:07.

something else! Any suggestions? The crown jewels! I have to say,

:58:07.:58:12.

you have done very well, I might have to present you with the gold.

:58:12.:58:21.

There we go. Silver. That is harsh! At least you still get a man. Do

:58:21.:58:28.

not say we do not give you anything. Duncan Hames obviously very good at

:58:29.:58:34.

the pub quiz! Right, that is it, it is good to be back, politics looks

:58:34.:58:38.

very exciting this September. We thank our guests for being with us

:58:38.:58:42.

today, and we have plenty more in the weeks ahead. Party conferences

:58:42.:58:46.

coming up, the One O'Clock News is starting over on BBC One in just a

:58:46.:58:51.

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