19/09/2012 Daily Politics


19/09/2012

Andrew Neil and Jo Coburn with the latest political news, including former trade minister Lord Jones, Conservative MP Kwasi Kwarteng and developments in the US presidential race.


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Transcript


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Morning, folks, this is the Daily Politics. Are we heading for a

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European foreign policy, a European army and a European border police?

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That is what the foreign ministers of the EU's biggest countries say

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they want. Not including Britain, of course, where the idea of a

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powerful new pan-European foreign ministry -- midges -- ministry and

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a shared defence policy could be a hard sell.

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Whispers of green economic ships. Britain's businesses tell us what

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could help them prosper. Is the Football Association done

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enough to stamp out racism? MPs think it could do more.

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# Outsourcing jobs, playing cover- up, two years of tax returns really

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ain't enough. # And we will be asking, is Mitt

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Romney's campaign heading in the wrong direction?

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You never thought you would see one direction on the Daily Politics,

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and you didn't. It is a cover-up. All that and more coming up in the

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next hour. No PMQs today. Parliament has shut up shop for

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three and a half weeks. They have been back for two weeks, so only

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right that they should go away again to their party conferences.

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But never fear, Digby Jones will soon be here to find us. He is a

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former trade minister under Gordon Brown. He will be with us for most

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of the programme when he has sorted out his transport issues.

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First today, let's turn our eyes to the tragic shooting of two female

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police officers in Greater Manchester yesterday. Fiona Bone,

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who was 32 and Nicola Hughes, who was 23, were killed when they

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responded to a false report of a burglary of a hat as the housing

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estate in Mottram. The suspect, Dale Cregan, is also being

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questioned on suspicion of murdering a man and his father in

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two attacks in Greater Manchester earlier this year. It has emerged

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that he was initially arrested three months ago as part of that

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inquiry, but was released on bail. Earlier I spoke to the chairman of

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the Home Affairs Select Committee, Keith Vaz. I put it to him that

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people would find it hard to understand why a man wanted in

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connection with two other murders was out on police bail. They are

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right to be concerned. This is an issue that has been raised in the

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past by myself and the Home Affairs Select Committee. We need to look

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at the whole issue of bail. Baileys of course granted in the end by a

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judge. We don't know the circumstances as to whether the

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police objected to bail. I imagine they did, but that is just a guess.

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I think this forms part of the inquiry that needs to happen,

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conducted by Greater Manchester Police. The inquiries that the

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Chief Constable spoke of yesterday, in order to find out what brought

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these two young police officers into this position where they lost

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their lives. It is essential that we know why. The figures are

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shocking. 142,000, 537 crimes were carried out by suspects already on

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bail for a separate events, according to official figures. That

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can't go on. These are shocking figures and it can't go on. We need

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not just an ability to understand why this happens, it is also a

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proper dialogue between the prosecution part of the criminal

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justice system and the judiciary. We are not trying to put pressure

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on judges to find out why they make these decisions. But it is

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important to go back to the judiciary and say to them in an

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open way, as a result of the decisions that have been taken, X

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number of people have subsequently committed offences. The point of

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putting someone on bail is to give them their freedom in exchange for

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them not committing offences. This therefore adds a new dimension to

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already tragic events. What about the case which will now be argued

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no doubt more forcefully for arming police officers? Britain has always

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been proud of the fact that we don't wittingly armed police

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officers. They don't walk down the streets with heavy weaponry. Should

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that change? I am certain that this will be a debate we have to have. I

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am against the idea of arming our police, and I think the police

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service itself is against having answer on a routine basis. But do

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you think it will happen? For no, I don't, because once you start

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arming your police force, it will mean those who are criminal

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elements will ensure that they also carry arms. And that will start an

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escalation process. In America, of course, police officers routinely

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carry weapons. But the situation in America is quite different. Here,

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even if they want to use Tasers, they have to be specially trained

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and a senior officer has to authorise it. This is something we

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need to ask the police. I am personally against it. But at the

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end of the day, circumstances of this kind will raise these issues.

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On the issue of capital the -- capital punishment, it has been

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debated long and hard, but now there are renewed calls for that to

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be looked at in the context of police officers being murdered, not

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just from the families of the victims, but also from Norman

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Tebbit, not surprisingly, and another Tory MP. I can perfectly

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understand what the families have said and I can understand why they

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want to take this course of action. However, I am against the death

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penalty and I don't think one can extend it to certain classes of

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people and professions. If you want to have a debate about the death

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penalty, the place to have that debate is in Parliament. I am not

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surprised Norman Tebbit has said this. He has always held this view.

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I hold a different view. This is something that members debate from

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time to time, but I don't think we should change our position.

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Digby Jones, welcome to the programme. What is your response?

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It is an absolute tragedy. Arming those two female police officers

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would not have stopped them being killed. They would not have gone

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into this situation with guns drawn. That is not what this is about. In

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my view, this guy should not have been out on bail. In America and

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France, he would never have seen the light of day when they

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suspected what he had done. There is a problem with a lot of the

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liberal elite, which is that they concentrate more on the freedom of

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the individual, which in other circumstances is acceptable, rather

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than the Risk Society has won a certain sort of person goes back

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out on the street. If there is going to be interference or

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pressure put on judges to make decisions... Well, we are back into

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the whole issue of 42 days and all that, which was probably too long.

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But the whole concept of how to protect society from people who,

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without charge, can walk the streets. This is not about arming

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the police. 80% of the police, when polled, say they don't want guns.

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But they want to be protected. we want them protected. I can

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remember as a kid when Harry Roberts shot those three police

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officers in 1966, and this is the worst one since then. I remember

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seeing those bodies on the street of those three detectives, and I

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was about 10. It had quite an effect on me. And yesterday brought

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it all back. We have to look very seriously at the rules about bail,

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release and charge, as opposed to arming the police. It would not

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have helped those poor ladies yesterday.

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Now, some of the more keen-eyed viewers among you may recall a

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speech we reported last week by this man, a Jose Manuel Barroso. He

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is the president of the European Commission. Here, he was giving us

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his so-called State of the Union address in Strasbourg, in which he

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called for a federal Europe with a directly elected President. Now a

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group of the EU's most powerful foreign ministers have weighed in,

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calling for radical new steps to strengthen the EU foreign, defence

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and security policy. Funnily enough, this group does not include Britain,

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surprise, surprise. So what is this group saying, and how seriously

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should we take the proposals? What do you know, JoCo?

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The future of Europe group, as it is known, consists of 11 EU

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countries, not including Britain. The group, which also includes five

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of the six biggest EU countries, has spent months brainstorming

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ideas for the future of the EU. Yesterday it published a report at

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a meeting in Warsaw, headed by the German foreign minister Guido

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Westerwelle. The report says the EU must take decisive steps to

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strengthen its act on the world stage. It suggests creating a

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powerful new pan-European foreign ministry. It also suggests creating

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a new police force to patrol the borders of the Schengen passport

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free zone. And it suggests greater defence co-operation, including the

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possibility one day of a European army. The report is a long way from

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becoming a reality, but will obviously raised more questions for

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David Cameron and issue of Britain's ongoing relationship with

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Europe. We are joined now from Brussels by

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the German member of the European Parliament Elmar Brok, who chairs

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the European Parliament's foreign affairs committee. Good to see you

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again. There has been talk of a European foreign policy, a European

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army and European security for some time. Should we take this report

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seriously? Go I think so. We have already made a lot of progress in

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this sector on implementing the Treaty of Lisbon, but we have to

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come forward with a response which includes the possibility of a

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coalition of the willing. But Europe's roar around the world

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cannot be handled by nation states, only by pulling and sharing out of

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-- abilities have we a chance to be taken seriously. If you look at the

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differing European attitudes, say, to the second Iraq war or even the

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invasion of Afghanistan and other foreign policy issues, Libya, for

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example, why would it be possible to ever have a common European

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foreign policy, given the disagreements on this? Your country

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would not get involved in Libya. not everyone has to take part in

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everything, but they should not stop others if they want to do

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something. Germany supported the Libyan case, but because of certain

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problems, including the reform of the German army, Germany did not

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take part in that militarily. But we supported everything else. We

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still have a lot of shortcomings. That is why we have to build things

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up further. Then Europe can play its role. The citizens, including

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British citizens, believe we need - - we need more foreign and security

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policy. Again, looking at opinion in your own country, in Germany,

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there was a poll this week showing that 65% of Germans wanted no

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further European integration. How does that square with what you have

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just said? We have totally different opinion polls. The

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majority of Germans are 70% in favour of Europe, but some are not

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happy with how we conduct Europe at the moment. But I did not say

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Europe. I did not say they were not in favour of Europe, of course they

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are. They are also in favour of keeping the euro. But the poll said

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65% of them did not want more European integration. And another

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poll said that 65% of French people, if they had a vote, would not vote

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for the treaty of Maastricht, which was, of course, the previous

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integration. So where is the democratic mandate for these

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foreign ministers calling for these changes? These foreign ministers

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have developed these ideas in order to bring the debate forward. They

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cannot decide anything, but I think it is a very good thing if such

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foreign ministers try to develop European debate. Others may come to

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different opinions. I would like to have an open debate between

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different opinions in Europe. If the German and Polish foreign

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ministers agree on such positions, that is a remarkable step forward.

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Stay with us, we have Digby Jones with us in the studio in London. He

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was once a government trade minister and is also head of the

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CBI, the British business organisation, a few years back.

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Where are you on this? The problem is that you get polemic views, and

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then you get the Euro-sceptic and the Europhile debate, instead of

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looking at the actual strengths of Europe. If you stop the average guy

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in the street in most countries, especially northern Europe, they

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will say this was about free trade between 500 million people getting

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richer, and probably about the environment as well. By the Germans

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and French have gone well beyond that. That is not where we are now.

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The problem is, if you look at Britain in this, we have a

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different world aspect of virtually every other country in Europe. We

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have a Commonwealth, we have a different relationship with America.

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And at the same time, we are a powerful economy and a powerful

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nation. We are militarily different to everybody else, with the

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possible exception of France. And because of all that, 54 I would not

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Is it your view that if Europe and there is a constituency for this,

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Elmar Brok is quite right, but if Europe wants to go down this route

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or a big chunk, which would be significant, no mainstream British

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politician could sell this to the British people? Absolutely spot on.

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What you'll end up with is you'll end up with the - a country called

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Europe and then there will be a trade relationship with others who

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are geophotographically in Europe. We'll be one of those who have a --

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geographically in Europe. We'll be one of those who have such a

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reslaitionship. It won't include -- relationship. The Swedes would

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never be part? No doubt about that. Elmar Brok, coming back to you,

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isn't it a bit daunting, like Groundlog Day that the British,

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whether it's Labour or Conservative government, are going to be yet

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again a drag on all the things you want to do? Firstly, we have to

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debate this. We would not leave the debates on Europe to the euro

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sceptics. We do it in a positive way. Everyone has to make its their

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minds. Even the conclusions - this was always about politics, not just

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trade from the very beginning. one told the British people that.

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That is your problem. It's not my problem. I agree with that. It was

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discussed that way. Secondly, Britain is not the most powerful

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country. Economically it's not a force in the EU. We have to see

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that on the world stage. Britain doesn't matter very much, that's

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what you are saying? Neither Britain nor Germany matter very

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much in the future. None of our countries will matter very much in

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the future. This special relationship with the United States,

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I think there are also other countries. If you had a referendum

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- You can become the 51st state of the United States. If you had a

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referendum in Germany now or in the next couple of years, saying you

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will abolish the German army and it will become wholly part of a

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European army, how would Germany vote? First of all, it's to develop

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a different direction, but we have all low budgets. Not every country

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should do everything. Europe has 40% of the military like the United

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States, but only with 10% - understand that. I asked you how

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would Germany vote? Germany will vote in this case with yes. What's

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the evidence for that, because I've seen no poll that would suggest

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that at all? It was never asked for that. If we talked to citizens it's

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very much not so. There isure poon and defence policies. -- European

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and defence policies. If you had a French general in charge of German

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soldiers, do you think the people of Europe would vote for that?

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have it already, a big part of the German army and 80% of the Dutch

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army are together. They are having one who is Dutch and then another

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germ nan and it works. There's a French and German brigade. We have

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similar things with Denmark and Poland and Germany, on top of that.

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Elmar Brok, it's always great to talk to you. Thank you for joining

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us. It's time for our quiz and today we are going to be marking

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education secretary Michael Gove on his French. He wants all of us to

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parlez Francais, so Digby watch this. Which one is direct? Vive le

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:19:55.:20:00.

delifrpbs. -- difference. Let' find out whether he scored nil points.

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can answer now. Don't give me it. You'll muck it up. Don't give the

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answer now. Come closer. Closer. Whispering. Some people are

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beginning to talk about green shoots of economic recovery. Green

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shoots! Not Government ministers of course, they're not that stupid,

:20:19.:20:24.

well most of them. Even those using the words say it's all very early

:20:24.:20:28.

and it's fragile, but let's just assume for a couple of minutes that

:20:28.:20:33.

it's true, that there are some green shoots around. What sort of

:20:33.:20:39.

fertiliser is required to make them grow? You like this?! Here's what a

:20:39.:20:48.

few experts thought. # I want to break free... # For the

:20:48.:20:53.

economy to grow, businesses need to be set free, which means less

:20:53.:20:56.

regulation, simple taxes and lower tax rates and the second to be more

:20:56.:20:59.

connect today the world. That means the Government should unblock the

:20:59.:21:02.

planning delays that are stopping us getting new airport capacity,

:21:02.:21:12.
:21:12.:21:13.

rail and road projects. # God knows I want to break free...

:21:13.:21:16.

# Access to finance is a problem for small businesses who can't get

:21:16.:21:21.

the finance they need for business, so we very much welcome the

:21:21.:21:24.

Government's announcement around the formation of a small business

:21:24.:21:28.

bank. # It's strange, but it's true... #

:21:28.:21:32.

British businesses are crying out, especially the smaller ones, to be

:21:32.:21:38.

set free from the legislation that makes their life a nightmare.

:21:38.:21:41.

need to look to the future to get the right technology for the

:21:41.:21:45.

internet age to actually deal with people in this country and abroad

:21:45.:21:52.

to strike new deals. Another initiative that we think they ought

:21:53.:21:58.

to look at, as we come up to the autumn statement, is the extension

:21:58.:22:02.

of the national insurance contributions holiday to all small

:22:02.:22:08.

businesses. Another thing the Government needs to do, it needs to

:22:08.:22:11.

use its force to convince, especially smaller companies, to

:22:11.:22:15.

export more. The way out of our present economic woes is through

:22:15.:22:18.

exporting, especially to the big countries. The Government needs to

:22:18.:22:26.

make sure it gets that message across with the most force possible.

:22:26.:22:36.
:22:36.:22:38.

I'm joined by the Conservative MP Mr Quateng. Have you spotted any

:22:38.:22:46.

green shoots? It's too early to say. There's optimism. You haven't

:22:46.:22:50.

spotted them? It's dangerous to say we're out of the recession. That's

:22:50.:22:53.

an aunt Sally. I didn't ask you if we were out of the recession.

:22:53.:22:59.

Nobody is saying that. I simply asked you if you had spotted -

:22:59.:23:02.

There are certainly green shoots, and whether they rise and grow we

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have to wait and see. Have you spotted them? If you are making

:23:06.:23:10.

things, which Asia wants to buy, you are having not a good time, but

:23:10.:23:13.

a very sustainable time. Good employment and good levels of

:23:13.:23:19.

profit. If you are doing something which is only dependent on the

:23:19.:23:23.

British or Western European market there are no shoots whatsoever.

:23:23.:23:27.

need some green shoots, don't you now, politically, because there's

:23:27.:23:31.

been a long time acoming? Absolutely. I think we are gripping

:23:31.:23:37.

the nettle, if you like. You should never grip a nettle. Well the

:23:37.:23:42.

problem. I think there's the bold policies on welfare in terms of

:23:42.:23:46.

trying to freeze benefits and cut spending and I think on the supply

:23:46.:23:49.

side, business side and growth side, we'll have very bold policies

:23:49.:23:55.

hopefully in the next year or so. Isn't the real problem as to why

:23:55.:23:58.

the economy's been in these quarters of no growth, indeed,

:23:58.:24:07.

decline, is not the supply side at all, but a lack of demand?

:24:07.:24:10.

Households' real incomes are cut and export markets have not been

:24:10.:24:14.

growing that fast until recently, public spending's been cut as well,

:24:14.:24:17.

business hasn't been investing. There's a lack of demand in the

:24:17.:24:21.

economy? You're right to focus on the lack of demand, but there's a

:24:21.:24:24.

thing called business confidence and the whole point about the

:24:24.:24:28.

supply side and low taxes is that it will actually increase business

:24:28.:24:32.

confidence. I was looking at Nigel Lawson's book and his account of

:24:32.:24:36.

when he cut the top rate of tax from 60 to 40%. That was an

:24:36.:24:41.

unfunded tax cut. He didn't know the consequences, but it was a

:24:41.:24:44.

strong signal of intent. I think we have missed a trick slightly.

:24:44.:24:49.

are saying it's a lack of big confidence and the balance sheets

:24:49.:24:55.

of Britain are full and they are not investing, but when you see a

:24:55.:25:00.

Secretary of State for business, who buys his cars from Tokyo and

:25:00.:25:04.

his trains from elsewhere, why should people think the Government

:25:04.:25:09.

is behind the country? I think it's very good for Government to give a

:25:09.:25:13.

clear signal of intent over how and what we value in terms of people

:25:13.:25:17.

going out and making a living. you get demand up, you need more

:25:17.:25:22.

people in work. You could put one million people in work if every

:25:22.:25:27.

small business in Britain employed one more person? That's right.

:25:27.:25:32.

tax jobs? Why do you tax jobs and not profit. You could do that in a

:25:32.:25:37.

stroke? Sure. Why don't you? not here to defend Government

:25:37.:25:44.

policy. As head of the group I'm suggesting that - I'm on your side.

:25:44.:25:51.

I understand that. Why are David Cameron and George Osborne so

:25:51.:25:55.

reluctant to go down the route you are advocating? I think there are

:25:55.:25:59.

issues with the coalition. Digby's mentioned the fact that Vince Cable

:25:59.:26:02.

is the Business Secretary. This was a gentleman who until he was my age

:26:02.:26:07.

was a Labour activist, I think he was a Labour councillor and his

:26:07.:26:12.

instincts are not as free epbt surprise focused as some of ours --

:26:12.:26:17.

free enterprise focused as some of ours. There may be issues in the

:26:17.:26:23.

Treasury in terms of unfunded tax cuts. You will probably know, that

:26:23.:26:28.

in the run-up to the last Budget there was a major move in Downing

:26:28.:26:34.

Street to have a dramatic cut in corporation tax. I favoured that.

:26:34.:26:37.

It never reached the Lib Dems, but it was stopped by the Prime

:26:37.:26:40.

Minister and the Chancellor. not privy to discussions.

:26:40.:26:45.

telling you it was, so why the reluctance? There are issues with

:26:45.:26:48.

the coalition. The Liberal Democrats didn't stop this? You can

:26:48.:26:52.

understand that if they are within a coalition they will know what

:26:52.:26:55.

appetite there is for the coalition partners to adopt or promote

:26:55.:26:59.

policies that we have put forward. They probably felt this was

:26:59.:27:02.

something perhaps that the Liberal Democrats would not have supported.

:27:02.:27:07.

If I can put some words in your mouth, which I appreciate given who

:27:07.:27:13.

your boss is, you might not say - He's an MP. I meant your leader,

:27:13.:27:19.

I'm not too sure that David Cameron has business through his veins. I'm

:27:19.:27:24.

not - he's accused of being too business friendly, but business

:27:24.:27:29.

doesn't see him like that. I don't mean against, but he's not perhaps

:27:29.:27:31.

absolutely on the wealth creation message as business would like him

:27:31.:27:35.

to be. He's not just there all the time either. Could I put words in

:27:35.:27:40.

your mouth? I wouldn't disagree with that entirely. You would say

:27:40.:27:44.

he's probusiness? I think so and the Government. If you look at

:27:44.:27:48.

Michael Fallon and Matthew Hancock, pro-business people. To keep an eye

:27:48.:27:54.

on Vince Cable? Yes. There's only one department in Government that

:27:54.:27:57.

has capitalism at its core and that's the department of business

:27:57.:28:00.

and the Secretary of State of that department is in the gift of the

:28:00.:28:05.

Prime Minister. That's right. put someone who is a Labour Party

:28:05.:28:10.

activist in charge of it? Let me remind you, we're in a coalition.

:28:10.:28:16.

lot of people on the backbenches and you know this as well as I, so

:28:16.:28:20.

let's be honest here, they don't - people like you say to me privately

:28:20.:28:24.

they don't think, when it comes to all the lists of things that you

:28:24.:28:30.

want, they don't think David Cameron's heart's in it. I think

:28:30.:28:33.

he's a Conservative and a strong probusiness leader who is

:28:33.:28:37.

constrained by a coalition. It's that simple. We are going to move

:28:37.:28:43.

on, but I'm told privately by the Treasury and the Cabinet Office as

:28:43.:28:47.

well and even by Downing Street that they expect - they will never

:28:47.:28:50.

say this publicly, but expect third-quarter growth, the quarter

:28:50.:28:56.

that is just coming to an end, to be at least 0.5%. There won't be

:28:56.:28:59.

another decline and some people think 0.7. They won't say this

:28:59.:29:02.

publicly. That's what they're hoping for and what the early

:29:02.:29:05.

indications they believe say. That will be the real test, won't it?

:29:06.:29:09.

The growth will be a real test of green shoots? Of course. If you are

:29:09.:29:12.

suggesting that we can see the green shoots and we get a positive

:29:12.:29:16.

number, then that would confirm that. Don't go away. We are going

:29:16.:29:20.

to keep you hostage for a few minutes. There will be a lot of

:29:20.:29:24.

sighs of relief in Number Ten. If there isn't there will be some real

:29:24.:29:27.

trouble. Which is why they won't say it. How do you give an

:29:27.:29:31.

advantage to local business in tough economic times? Yes, we'll

:29:31.:29:35.

ask you two how to encourage people spending cash locally and give a

:29:35.:29:38.

strong sense of identity to your town or city. The people of Bristol

:29:38.:29:43.

have come up with a cunning plan. It seems that money talks. So does

:29:43.:29:50.

our west of England reporter David Harvey. What's this all about?

:29:50.:29:54.

extraordinary. Right here we have the first Bristol pound. I'll just

:29:54.:30:02.

show that to you. Steal it. That is a Bristol pound, printed specially

:30:02.:30:06.

for this city. The Mayor has bought this loaf of bread. You better have

:30:06.:30:11.

it back and give the local baker his pound, because that is the

:30:11.:30:17.

first transaction made here. This is the centre of trading and

:30:17.:30:20.

finance and banking and now very much a local market. They are

:30:20.:30:23.

trying to bring the two together, finance and local trading by

:30:23.:30:33.
:30:33.:30:36.

printing their own currency. Do They do fivers, tenors and twenties.

:30:36.:30:41.

Lots of interest. Quite a celebratory feel. The exchange rate

:30:41.:30:44.

is 1-1 with sterling. Technically, I had better keep quiet, because

:30:44.:30:48.

people don't like this - it is actually a voucher, because you

:30:48.:30:53.

hand over your sterling, and you are given over Bristol pounds in

:30:53.:31:00.

return. You can use them in many places in the city. They include

:31:00.:31:03.

the old marketplace here. You can see the sort of independent local

:31:03.:31:10.

traders you often find in places like this. So here we have lots of

:31:10.:31:16.

local Bristol T-shirts. Are you Bristol born-and-bred? Yes, indeed.

:31:16.:31:22.

Why are you taking this currency? think the Bristol bound is

:31:22.:31:26.

celebrating everything that is great about Bristol, and we support

:31:26.:31:30.

everything that is local. So it is a lovely local feel-good factor.

:31:30.:31:35.

This morning, lots have joined in that spirit. Do you think your

:31:35.:31:39.

actual customers, after the launch has died away, will come back and

:31:39.:31:45.

use this can see? At our customers already shop local. So when they

:31:45.:31:49.

see their friends using it, they will join in. If it is certainly

:31:50.:31:53.

something that the politicians want to have a slice of. There is a

:31:53.:31:57.

mayoral election under way here in Bristol, and all the would-be

:31:57.:32:01.

mayors have been here this morning. I have seen several MPs. Let's keep

:32:01.:32:05.

the politicians out of it for a moment and have a word with Chris

:32:05.:32:08.

Sunderland, one of the directors of the Bristol pound. You want to

:32:08.:32:12.

change the way we think about money? Yes, I suppose we are trying

:32:12.:32:16.

to say you can use your money to back your city and your local

:32:16.:32:21.

independent traders, who need a leg-up in these times. Also, with a

:32:21.:32:26.

local currency liked this, which, say it changes hands eight times,

:32:26.:32:31.

each Bristol pound, then it is like there are �8 for every �1. It is

:32:31.:32:35.

called the local multiplier effect. The have done some serious research

:32:35.:32:41.

on this, and they discovered that if you spend with a multi-national

:32:41.:32:46.

retailer, it disappears? Absolutely. Money spent with a chain store goes

:32:46.:32:50.

straight to London. We have all got suspicious about that process. Our

:32:50.:32:55.

local currency is for the city region. And it will ricochet around

:32:55.:33:01.

the city region and add to its wealth. Lovely idea, lovely

:33:01.:33:04.

aspiration, interesting theory. Will people really signed up? They

:33:04.:33:08.

have to hand over sterling for this stuff, it is not just toy money.

:33:08.:33:12.

They have already sold out on that store, and they are telling me I

:33:12.:33:16.

have to rush up and get some more. So there is enormous interest in

:33:16.:33:20.

this, and we know there are 300 businesses either signed up or

:33:20.:33:27.

signing up right now. In a year's time, we expect there will be at

:33:27.:33:31.

least 1004 stores who are part of this and 2000 in two years. They

:33:31.:33:36.

say it is the biggest scheme in the world already. There are big

:33:36.:33:41.

schemes in Germany and America as well. To give you an idea of how

:33:41.:33:49.

the world is watching this city, somebody from Russian television

:33:49.:33:52.

told me the people of St Petersburg would like to have their own

:33:52.:33:57.

currency, but he doesn't think they will get one any time soon.

:33:57.:34:02.

Well, it looks great. It is a good idea, but will it actually work? My

:34:02.:34:06.

immediate thought was, would I go down and take my pounds and

:34:06.:34:14.

exchange them for those vouchers? Give me your �20... That can go

:34:14.:34:24.
:34:24.:34:27.

from Sydney to Sweden. Give him a Daily Politics voucher. This is a

:34:27.:34:31.

really interesting initiative. Why wouldn't it work? We it make people

:34:31.:34:34.

spend more? We were talking about lack of demand and trying to

:34:34.:34:38.

encourage people to spend more in Bristol. It might have a short-term

:34:38.:34:42.

effect. Clearly in the long term, it will not solve the economic

:34:42.:34:49.

problems. It is good for two things, one being City morale. It is good

:34:49.:34:52.

to get a connection between what you spend in your city and your

:34:52.:34:56.

small trader employing someone because of it and feeling you have

:34:56.:34:59.

contributed something. It is a gimmick, but what is wrong with

:34:59.:35:07.

that? If you do it well and you are a trader, suddenly you have 1000 of

:35:07.:35:11.

these and you go to somebody and say, I would like some more of

:35:11.:35:15.

these. But the problem is that this will give you what you want all of

:35:15.:35:20.

the world. If somebody says I will give you 99p for yours, you have a

:35:20.:35:25.

problem. But if businesses locally do better as a result even in the

:35:25.:35:29.

short-term, they will then put at that extra money back into the

:35:29.:35:32.

economy, whether with their Bristol pounds ore than normal British

:35:32.:35:39.

pounds. Does it matter? In terms of business confidence, we mentioned

:35:39.:35:42.

the idea of getting people out there and spending money. An

:35:42.:35:48.

initiative like this can work. always frustrated at the fact that

:35:48.:35:51.

politicians and journalists think business at is somewhere over there

:35:51.:35:58.

and everything else happens around here. Business is part of society.

:35:58.:36:02.

Therefore, by the use of a transferable currency, if you can

:36:02.:36:06.

get a job related to buying things, then suddenly business takes its

:36:06.:36:11.

place in the core of our society instead of being seen as out there.

:36:11.:36:17.

Do you think it would take off in other cities? It might. But then

:36:17.:36:21.

would you have a Birmingham pound O brave Bristol Crown? We will have

:36:22.:36:26.

that talk another day. Now, is another general strike on

:36:26.:36:32.

the cards? We have not really had one since 1926. I was driving the

:36:32.:36:39.

buses. Or not. It is highly unlikely, although not impossible

:36:40.:36:43.

after the TUC voted to explore the practical it is a staging one at

:36:43.:36:47.

their conference last week. Some Conservatives believe this is why

:36:47.:36:52.

new laws need to make it harder for unions to call their members are

:36:52.:36:55.

out. Boris Johnson, forever differentiating himself from Mr

:36:55.:36:58.

Cameron, has been demanding that kind of action. But have we

:36:58.:37:05.

actually become more militant in this country, or is the trade union

:37:05.:37:08.

much less representative of the country as a whole. Do we really

:37:08.:37:17.

need tough new legislation? The General Strike of 1926, an

:37:17.:37:22.

iconic moment in trade union folklore. 86 years on, the TUC

:37:22.:37:27.

votes to explore the practicalities of reviving these scenes live, and

:37:27.:37:31.

in colour. This will be the finishing point of a major demo

:37:31.:37:35.

next month, which the organisers hope will see thousands of people

:37:35.:37:39.

marching in protest against the coalition's spending cuts. But some

:37:40.:37:44.

union leaders want it to be at the start of a bigger campaign up to

:37:44.:37:47.

and including a modern-day version of the General Strike, which is why

:37:47.:37:51.

some Conservatives think it is time to nip what they see as a

:37:51.:37:56.

groundswell of militancy in the bud. We need a threshold so that unless

:37:56.:38:00.

you have 50% support from your own rank-and-file membership, you can't

:38:00.:38:05.

inflict chaos on the rest of the public with strike action. We could

:38:05.:38:08.

keep appeasing this militant minority, which don't represent

:38:08.:38:11.

their run wider membership, or we could protect the hard-working

:38:11.:38:19.

majority. Union membership peaked in the 1980s, at more than 30

:38:20.:38:24.

million. It is half that now. But almost 1.4 million working days

:38:24.:38:28.

were lost to strike action last year, a 20 year high. However, most

:38:28.:38:32.

of those were down to last November's day of action, and we

:38:32.:38:36.

still lose about five times fewer days than the French. It is a lot

:38:36.:38:39.

lower than the 1980s, when an average of 7.2 million days were

:38:39.:38:43.

lost every year. Some experts believe tough and distract laws

:38:43.:38:46.

would actually be counter- productive. If you make it harder

:38:46.:38:50.

for people to strike lawfully and put up more obstacles in the path

:38:50.:38:54.

of legitimate strikes, there is always the danger of more wildcat

:38:54.:38:58.

spontaneous action out of the control of union leaders. A general

:38:58.:39:03.

strike would be upping the ante a lot, if the unions decide to do it.

:39:03.:39:07.

I think we will see a lot of co- ordination between unions, in the

:39:07.:39:14.

same way we saw last November with the big protest over pensions, when

:39:15.:39:19.

almost 30 unions took part. No one would call that a general strike,

:39:19.:39:21.

but there were several million workers out on strike, and I

:39:21.:39:24.

suspect we will see something similar in the future. The problem

:39:24.:39:28.

with having a general strike and calling it a general strike is that

:39:28.:39:32.

under current employment law, that is unlawful. But if something looks

:39:32.:39:37.

and works like a political strike, isn't it a political strike? These

:39:37.:39:41.

strikes are less about call workplace issues or issues

:39:41.:39:45.

affecting rank-and-file members and more a concerted attack on the

:39:45.:39:48.

coalition and the government's attempt to try and rain in debt and

:39:48.:39:52.

rising public spending and a period of huge financial constraints. That

:39:52.:39:56.

is why we need a voting threshold to safeguard the hard-working

:39:56.:40:01.

majority. The general strike was a key moment in the history of

:40:01.:40:05.

Britain had the 20th century. If push comes to shove now, it could

:40:05.:40:12.

become one in the 21st. We are joined now by Sarah Veale, head of

:40:12.:40:16.

employment rights at the TUC. I find it hard to take this talk of

:40:16.:40:21.

a general strike seriously. Am I right or wrong? You should take it

:40:21.:40:25.

seriously, because the congress expressed its anger about the

:40:25.:40:29.

difficulties now faced by working people in the UK. But we were not

:40:29.:40:32.

asked to call a general strike, we were asked to look into the

:40:32.:40:36.

possibility. How likely is it? There is likely to be industrial

:40:37.:40:40.

action. A general strike would be almost impossible, partly because

:40:40.:40:45.

the laws in this country are very restrictive in terms of what trade-

:40:45.:40:48.

union leaders can do. It would be illegal unless they could find a

:40:49.:40:52.

legitimate dispute in every industry. From our point of view,

:40:52.:40:57.

some people do not make the choice to be in a trade union. Most people

:40:57.:41:05.

do not. Not in the public sector. And in the private sector, you are

:41:05.:41:11.

down to 15%. So I am right not to take a general strike seriously?

:41:11.:41:15.

You should take seriously the industrial militancy. That is an

:41:15.:41:20.

expression of real anger. Let's come on to that. There was a lot of

:41:20.:41:26.

talk of industrial militancy at the TUC conference. And the leaders of

:41:26.:41:30.

the big public sector unions are now largely militant and are on the

:41:30.:41:34.

left of the union movement and on the far left of the Labour Party.

:41:34.:41:41.

would not go that far. McCluskey? They are not far left.

:41:41.:41:46.

They are on the far left of the Labour Party. They are on the left

:41:47.:41:51.

of the mainstream Labour Party, but this is a diversionary arguments.

:41:51.:41:55.

Where is the evidence that the top third and -- tub-thumping we had at

:41:55.:41:58.

the TUC is reflected in the public mood? A few look at the numbers

:41:58.:42:03.

that turned out 18 months ago in our big demonstration in March 2010

:42:03.:42:07.

and the numbers that turned out last November when we called a day

:42:07.:42:13.

of action, they are massive. one day. To leave work for a day

:42:13.:42:16.

and sacrifice a day's wages is a big gesture of anger. People are

:42:16.:42:21.

not well paid these days. If you are willing to stop work to express

:42:21.:42:25.

your anger, the Government should take that seriously. A but if you

:42:25.:42:29.

call people out on strike in the public sector, because they hardly

:42:29.:42:34.

ever do in the private sector, and when they do, they usually use,

:42:34.:42:39.

which happened with British Airways, most people do not even vote in the

:42:39.:42:43.

public sector. A lot of people do vote. The turnouts for some of

:42:43.:42:49.

those ballots have been very high. In the teaching and other

:42:49.:42:53.

professions, it varies enormously. People are still angry enough to

:42:53.:42:59.

come out on Saturday and have a demonstration. They have plenty of

:42:59.:43:03.

grievances, that is not my argument. They are obviously concerned about

:43:03.:43:09.

public sector cuts. I understand that, and many jobs are in jeopardy.

:43:09.:43:13.

I just don't see the connection between the kind of rhetoric we

:43:13.:43:18.

heard at the TUC from the hardline union leaders, and the ordinary

:43:18.:43:26.

union members. Unions are very democratic organisations. They do

:43:26.:43:30.

now use modern technology to consult. They get Twitter and

:43:30.:43:32.

Facebook comments from their members, and they can't legally do

:43:32.:43:37.

these things unless the majority want it. There is great support in

:43:37.:43:42.

the unions for these activities. Unions are not suicidal. They would

:43:42.:43:46.

not do these things if they did not have permission to do them. If they

:43:46.:43:51.

were suicidal, we would not have any public services! If you look at

:43:51.:43:56.

some of the great success stories of creating jobs, creating wealth,

:43:56.:44:02.

Nissan, Honda, Toyota, JCB, they are all fully unionised. And the

:44:02.:44:06.

unions are so responsible. They give the management a hard time,

:44:06.:44:10.

and so they should. Welcome to negotiation. But they understand

:44:10.:44:15.

that the nation will only get out of trouble if these companies work

:44:15.:44:22.

together. In the private sector, you just don't get the same rapid,

:44:22.:44:27.

irresponsible rhetoric you get in the public sector. If you do it in

:44:27.:44:33.

the private sector, you can move to China. But you can't move a

:44:33.:44:37.

hospital to China. But in the public sector, there are

:44:37.:44:43.

negotiations going on all the time. They do not get written about. The

:44:43.:44:47.

media abscesses with industrial militancy and strikes. It was the

:44:47.:44:55.

only part of our conference that got any attention. But if there is

:44:55.:45:02.

a call to go on strike, don't blame the media. The members do a lot of

:45:02.:45:08.

work within the Union. These things that get people excited are a tiny

:45:08.:45:13.

little pinprick, compared to the hard work the armies of unpaid

:45:13.:45:23.
:45:23.:45:24.

Eknows that when he says it. You know that and I know that. I'm not

:45:25.:45:30.

going to comment. Thank you very much for joining us. Is racism

:45:30.:45:33.

still a big problem in football? A committee of MPs seem to think so.

:45:33.:45:36.

The Culture, Media and Sport Committee have published a report

:45:36.:45:38.

which says that the Football Association need to take more

:45:38.:45:41.

action following the recent high- profile cases of ex-England captain,

:45:41.:45:44.

John Terry and Liverpool striker, Luis Suarez. Well, joining us from

:45:44.:45:46.

outside Parliament is Therese Coffey, who is a menmber of the

:45:46.:45:49.

Culture, Media and Sport Committee, and Garth Crooks, former footballer,

:45:49.:45:57.

now TV commentator. Thank you both for joining us, Garth Crooks, is

:45:57.:46:02.

racism, as the report suggests, still a big problem in football?

:46:02.:46:05.

you read the report that's just been issued and I've read aspects

:46:05.:46:10.

of it, I would agree with it. I think there's still a lot of work

:46:10.:46:17.

to be done in the areas of racism, or dealing with racism in football.

:46:18.:46:24.

In my experience, when Government inquiries get involved they respond,

:46:24.:46:29.

so I welcome this. When you say you agree with aspects that it's a big

:46:29.:46:36.

problem, how is it manifesting itself these days? A number of ways.

:46:36.:46:42.

One is when Football Association, who are the organisation that

:46:43.:46:46.

organises the coaching qualifications for jobs, who they

:46:46.:46:51.

employ at the clubs, not enough people have been qualified for

:46:51.:46:55.

group and that's been a consistent thing for 20 years. Recruitment

:46:55.:46:58.

policy. Do you think that would make a big difference, but there

:46:58.:47:02.

are recommendations about training for stewards to spot abuse and

:47:02.:47:04.

encouraging more black coaches and referees. Will that be enough to

:47:05.:47:10.

tackle the problem? It would give the clubs the qualification of

:47:10.:47:16.

individuals to employ them. It's critical. I don't see why football

:47:16.:47:18.

should be different than any other employer throughout the country.

:47:19.:47:23.

This is one of the reasons I feel the Government get involved because

:47:23.:47:28.

it's only when the Government get involved that the Government

:47:28.:47:38.
:47:38.:47:39.

respond. Miss Foffey, what would you like to see? Several recent

:47:39.:47:43.

high-profile incidents showed racism has not gone away. Some of

:47:43.:47:49.

it may be quite casual. There's too much excusing of banter, so there

:47:49.:47:52.

are elements of stamping out the casual side that needs to go.

:47:52.:47:56.

do you do that? It's very difficult? One of it to some extent

:47:56.:48:01.

will be about players holding each other to account and one is about

:48:01.:48:05.

encouraging our referees at the grass roots games to make sure that

:48:05.:48:09.

people are reporting this, to their county FAs and stewards have better

:48:09.:48:13.

training so they tackle it. You are not going to necessarily challenge

:48:13.:48:17.

the guy next door and you become the torrent of abuse, but we should

:48:17.:48:21.

be encouraging people to say it's not acceptable and tackling it and

:48:21.:48:25.

more exclusions from grounds and similar. It's only when you start

:48:25.:48:27.

to exclude them perfect their passion that you make others

:48:27.:48:31.

realise what's going on. You are nodding your head there, you think

:48:32.:48:36.

that's the right approach? We are not where we were in the 70s and

:48:36.:48:41.

80s, but that's largely due to progressive legislation. Not self-

:48:41.:48:46.

regulation. Let's be clear here. In terms of taking people - making

:48:46.:48:50.

people accountable, the rules exist. The referee has the rules. He can

:48:50.:48:54.

employ them on the field of play. The governing body have the rules.

:48:54.:49:00.

Something has to be done. They can take action. For example, the issue

:49:00.:49:04.

surrounding John Terry. He's been charged by the FA and acquitted by

:49:04.:49:10.

the court, but that hearing to support the charge is not been made.

:49:10.:49:14.

Why are we waiting? That of course is talking about the footballers

:49:14.:49:18.

themselves, top professional players, you know the pressure that

:49:18.:49:21.

they should set examples, but what about at the grass roots? It's not

:49:21.:49:26.

just about the players. Obviously, there's a very big burden on them

:49:26.:49:30.

to behave, but what about at that level? Absolutely. It's one of the

:49:30.:49:34.

key challenges. That's why we are encouraging monitoring and

:49:34.:49:38.

reporting of particularly incidents, so that the FA can focus. We have

:49:38.:49:41.

also suggested they have an independent assessment and the

:49:41.:49:43.

effectiveness on some of their education programmes. I understand

:49:43.:49:48.

the FA is trying hard, but if it's not tackling the problem then

:49:48.:49:51.

they've got to think again about how they tackle that. Thank you

:49:51.:49:56.

both very much. In one moment we'll talk about all things America, but

:49:56.:50:01.

first a little earlier, we tested Digby's command of the language of

:50:01.:50:05.

love. And diplomacy, that will be French. We asked him to tell us

:50:05.:50:15.
:50:15.:50:18.

which of the following is correct. Veef la difference. Veef le

:50:18.:50:23.

difference. French is no longer the language of diplomacy. English is.

:50:23.:50:31.

I don't think it's the language of love. It's vive la differs with an

:50:31.:50:39.

acute on the last E. -- difrpbs with an acute on the last E. We do

:50:39.:50:43.

know the right answer, but Michael Gove when he spoke to MPs earlier

:50:43.:50:48.

this week. Let's take a look at what he said. The growth of

:50:48.:50:53.

language teaching is central to what this coalition Government

:50:53.:51:00.

wishes to achieve. We diverge from the last government vive le

:51:00.:51:08.

difference. He said le. I wish he had done something else. I get this

:51:08.:51:11.

all over Britain. If you are watching this programme and you

:51:11.:51:15.

have got children thinking do they do languages, the answer is

:51:15.:51:19.

definitely yes, but there should be two. Chinese and Spanish. If you go

:51:19.:51:24.

into the world anywhere in the world equipped with English,

:51:24.:51:28.

Spanish and Chinese you have equipped yourself for the 21st

:51:28.:51:34.

century. With great respect to our friends over the channel rblgs

:51:34.:51:39.

French and German, their -- the Channel, French and German, they're

:51:40.:51:44.

yesterday's language. It's true. Schools aren't putting them in.

:51:45.:51:48.

French and Germans will hate it. But they're having a common foreign

:51:48.:51:54.

policy soon. It's not easy. Things have been holding up in the race

:51:54.:52:04.
:52:04.:52:05.

for the White House no more ways than one. Cop a whack at this.

:52:05.:52:09.

# You're insecure # Some say a bore

:52:09.:52:15.

# Not only branch rupt, but your profit is needed more

:52:15.:52:20.

# Outsourcing jobs # Two years of tax returns

:52:20.:52:26.

# Really ain't enough # Everyone else can see it

:52:26.:52:31.

# Everyone else but Fox News # You lied to voters like nobody

:52:31.:52:36.

else # Your super pac gets them

:52:36.:52:39.

overwhelmed # But when you smile at your wealth

:52:39.:52:43.

# It ain't hard to tell # You won't show

:52:44.:52:52.

# What you're hiding downbelow # We understanding the voters

:52:52.:52:57.

matter so desperately # You won't show

:52:57.:53:07.

# What you're hiding down below # You have got to tell us... # Are

:53:07.:53:12.

they coming on the show? That wasn't One Direction I'm reliablely

:53:12.:53:16.

informed but Full Frontal Productions. I wonder why they're

:53:16.:53:21.

called that. I've no idea. Apparently they like making

:53:21.:53:25.

political films. Apparently that was one. It was a take on One

:53:25.:53:31.

Direction's What Makes You Beautiful. That's what it says here.

:53:31.:53:36.

They don't think much of Mitt Romney's tax return record. We hope

:53:36.:53:46.

to be joined by Charlie Wolf, but he's late and Marcus robe erts is

:53:46.:53:52.

here working for the Fabian Society -- Roberts is here working for the

:53:53.:53:57.

Fabian Society. Does President Obama have it in the bag? Probably

:53:57.:54:01.

yes, because what has happened now to Mitt Romney is just about the

:54:01.:54:05.

worst thing that can happen to a politician. He's lost control of

:54:05.:54:09.

his public imagine and been defined by his opponents and now reading

:54:09.:54:13.

from ray script that seems like it's been written by the Obama

:54:13.:54:16.

campaign. The problem with this gaffe is that and why it's more

:54:16.:54:20.

than just a normal Washington gaffe, is that it confirms the very idea

:54:20.:54:23.

that the Obama campaign has been trying to put into the minds of

:54:23.:54:28.

swing voters - the idea that Mitt Romney is against people. That Mitt

:54:28.:54:32.

Romney is against the middle class. You can't be against 47% of America

:54:32.:54:36.

and say you're going to be a President for all Americans. That's

:54:36.:54:39.

why he's in such trouble now. American election campaigns partly

:54:39.:54:44.

because they are so long, are strewn with gaffes. Ours are too,

:54:44.:54:48.

thanks to Mr Brown in roach Dale, but particularly because of the

:54:49.:54:54.

length of time. Am I right in thinking though that this in the

:54:54.:54:58.

league of gaffes this is premier division tough? Absolutely. There's

:54:58.:55:03.

a difference -- stuff? Absolutely. There's a difference between the

:55:03.:55:09.

little-league gaffes that Mitt Romney made. That was over the

:55:09.:55:15.

Olympics. It turns out that was a dress rehearsal for how things were

:55:15.:55:18.

to get. If this is what he's liked now, I would be concerned about the

:55:18.:55:25.

debates too. Charlie Wolf has finally made it here. He has given

:55:25.:55:32.

a small tip to Digby Jones' taxi driver, the late one. Exactly.

:55:32.:55:38.

me ask you this on what he said, he talked about the 76 million, it's

:55:38.:55:44.

46% of the people who file taxes who don't pay federal tax. I have

:55:44.:55:49.

been looking at this and two thirds of them pay federal pay roll taxes

:55:49.:55:56.

so they are taxpayers, two thirds of them. Most of the 76 million are

:55:56.:56:00.

either elderly, what we call old folks, or they are on less than

:56:01.:56:05.

$20,000 a year, so I think everybody agrees they shouldn't be

:56:05.:56:09.

paying tax. Why is he not interested in their votes? Well,

:56:09.:56:13.

what he was saying was, listen, these are people who will not vote

:56:13.:56:17.

for me. I'll not waste my time just as you wouldn't if you were a

:56:18.:56:21.

Conservative go to the safest Labour seat in the country. Did he

:56:21.:56:26.

conflate some numbers? Was it inarticulate, yes? Why would he not

:56:26.:56:30.

be interested even if they don't pay tax or a striver? 20,000 a year

:56:30.:56:40.
:56:40.:56:45.

in America is peanuts. Why has he said, "I'll never get their

:56:45.:56:49.

votes."? There are some people who will not vote and it's clear it's

:56:50.:56:54.

split right down the middle, even after gaffes and conventions or

:56:54.:57:01.

whatever, it's still 47 or 47%. It's pretty much a dead heat. One

:57:01.:57:06.

poll had Romney up on a few points. I still don't understand why he's

:57:06.:57:10.

riding -- writing off 76 million people, which is what the clip says,

:57:10.:57:15.

however you try to gloss it. Also those who don't pay federal tax.

:57:15.:57:21.

There are 13,000 people earning over $500,000 a year who don't pay

:57:21.:57:26.

federal income tax. Does he not want their vote either? I'm sure he

:57:26.:57:30.

does. He wants the vote over half a million, but not less than 20,000?

:57:30.:57:36.

Andrew, listen, he was in a campaign fundraising speech. He was

:57:36.:57:41.

not giving a statement to the press. He was not giving a policy speech.

:57:41.:57:47.

He was raising money. Under false pretences? No. What he was stating

:57:47.:57:51.

was obvious. There are a group of the population that is not going to

:57:51.:57:58.

vote for him. Including swing voters? No, he wants those. Aren't

:57:58.:58:05.

they included? No, he was saying he's not going after Obama's voters.

:58:05.:58:09.

The great leaders on both sides of the Atlantic in electoral winning

:58:09.:58:13.

terms, if you look at them, they were the people who actually said -

:58:13.:58:19.

Blair said to the richer, "I want to take my message to you."

:58:19.:58:24.

Thatcher said to Labour people, "I want to bring the message to you."

:58:24.:58:30.

We have only got 50 seconds. Why should Obama get a second term?

:58:30.:58:32.

He's provided healthcare to millions of Americans and bailed

:58:32.:58:36.

out the economy and he has begun cleaning up President Bush's mess.

:58:36.:58:41.

Wait a minute. There are 23 people out of work in the United States.

:58:41.:58:49.

Want to talk about gaffes. The President of the United States who

:58:49.:58:56.

doesn't know if Egypt is an ally or not. That's a gaffe. I lit the blue

:58:56.:59:00.

Andrew Neil and Jo Coburn with the latest political news and debate, including former trade minister Lord Jones, Conservative MP Kwasi Kwarteng and developments in the US presidential race.


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