20/09/2012 Daily Politics


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Afternoon, folks. Welcome to the Daily Politics. Now listen up, you


don't hear this very often. There is no easy way to say this. We made


a pledge. We didn't stick to it. And for that, I am sorry. Yes,


that's the sound of a politician apologising. Nick Clegg says sorry


for breaking his pledge on tuition fees. He says he will never again


make a promise he can't keep. But will that be enough to win back


lost voters? Over half a million people will be


affected by a major change to the pensions system when automatic


enrolment kicks in next month. We will talk to pensions minister,


Steve Webb. Conservative chairman Grant Shapps


will be here to explain how and why Downing Street is selling its


expertise abroad. And the government wants us to love


them but it seems the UK public isn't convinced by electric cars.


Motoring journalist Quentin Willson will be here to explain why they


are the future. You just touched the throttle like this, and you are


chasing Mini Coopers, literally. It is lovely to drive and an absolute


hoot. Chasing Mini Coopers? I don't think


All that in the next hour. With us for the duration journalist, author,


broadcaster, educationalist. A man with a very long business card.


It's Toby Young. Welcome back. Thank you. Let's start with the


warning this morning from Michael Wilshaw, the head of England's


schools standards watchdog, who says the coalition's pupil premium


policy to target extra funding at poor pupils in England, for which


the Lib Dems have been taking the credit, is having little impact on


many schools. The government asked us to do a


survey on this, which we did, and we looked at nearly 300 schools to


see how they were spending the money, and it came as a surprise


when inspectors said over 50% said it had made little or no difference


to the way they organised the school and managed it in terms of


supporting the poorest children and we are saying this is a substantial


tranche of government money, it has got to go on those children for


whom it is meant and if it goes elsewhere, it is not spent wisely.


By a miracle of modern planning, our guest of the day, Toby Young,


co-founded a new free school in London and now chairs the school's


board of governors. You were instrumental in starting it. Do any


of your pupils get this premium? What do you use it for? We had 25%


on free school meals in the first year, 28% this year. That is a


proxy for poverty? Yes. You have to be in a household earning less than


�16,000 a year to be eligible. It is a mistake to assume that


children on free school meals will always need extra help. Our highest


achieving girls are on free school meals, and the highest achieving


cohort across England are Chinese gold on free school meals, so it is


a mistake to assume they always need extra help. We spend the


premium on its three instrument lessons to children who want to


take up music -- on a free music lessons. We subsidise school trips,


that sort of things. See you think it would be a mistake to earmark


the money that you get exclusively for the kids with a price on the


head? Les. There is so much red tape that schools have to wade


through -- yes. To insist they ring-fence the pupil premium and


then get them under due diligence about how they spend it will create


another bureaucratic hurdle for them. The important thing is that


children on free school meals should be doing as well as those


who are not. So in a sense, the pupil premium is not a per capita


payment because of the number of kids you have from low income


families, it is a top-up to your funds. Absolutely. The Lib Dems


make a bit too much of the pupils premium and present it as a


fantastic concession they have got out of the Tories and they will


brag about it in the next election campaign but �600 is a fraction of


what you get overwrought for a pupil on free school meals. --


overall. You get about �6,000 for a pupil and an extra 2500 if they are


on free school meals and only an extra 600 for the pupil premium.


You must be encouraged that the girls on free school meals are


doing so well. Absolutely, it is fantastic. Working hard! Anyway...


How i's your lumbago today? -- how is your lumbago? Fine! Is the


arthritis playing you up? Let's face it, none of us is getting any


younger. And yet millions of us don't have a pension. Now I sound


like one of those day-time TV adverts. Like Michael Parkinson!


You can't get coverage cheaper than that! The number of people actively


paying into a workplace pension scheme has dropped consistently in


recent years to little more than eight million. There are about 25


million people in the private sector. Anyway, the government is


Starting from next month, the government will phase-in an


automatic enrolment scheme which will put all workers into a


workplace pension. That's if they are aged between 22 and the state


pension age. Earn at least �8,105 a year. And are not already in a


scheme which meets the minimum standards. Employees can opt out.


But saving in a pension will be the new default setting for anyone who


does not express a choice. Eventually, the automatic level of


contributions will be at least 8% of the individual's qualifying


earnings. This includes three per cent which comes from the employer.


Speaking on a visit to a supermarket today, pensions


secretary Iain Duncan Smith said Britain has a terrible savings


culture. Saving in a pension is beginning to fall. 11 million


people simply do not save enough for their retirement. This is the


opportunity to give people a slow and easy way to save that


guarantees them a decent income in retirement. That is a vital


ingredient for our lives. We spent a lot of years when we are not


working and we need to make sure our income before we retire is set.


Everything we say it needs to go towards a our future, not to the


government's future. Iain Duncan Smith. And with us now


is his colleague, Pensions Minister and Lib Dem MP Steve Webb. The


bottom 10th of her owners, the lowest paid people in the country,


are paying... They're paid did not rise at all last year. -- and their


salary did not rise. Food prices went up, utility bills went up 20%,


things they all have to pay, no choice on that, and now you are


going to take another 4% from their income. How does that work? This is


a voluntary scheme. If somebody is really strapped for cash, they can


opt out. But most people know they need a pension but it is too


difficult and complicated. The employee you would choose a scheme


and put some money in. Behind Iain Duncan-Smith was the sign "buy one


get one free". You put four in and that turns into eight because of


what the workplace will put him. You can say goodbye to any pay rise


next year because the employee will have to put in an extra 3%, so it


is not buy one get one free. Just because you work for a small firm,


it doesn't mean you should retire poorer. So we have tried to ease


the burden on the smaller firms, they don't have to come in for a


few years. It will be done very gradually, but what is the


alternative? But a lot of people who do not take home much already


will see this as another tax. It is another 4% on income tax. Is it 4%


of everything they earn? Above 5,000. That is lower than when


income tax kicks in? Exactly. We want to raise the income tax


threshold, which will help the people you are talking about. We


are bringing this 4% in over five years, and the evidence around the


world is that this is quite possible -- popular. A phrase I


heard at the supermarket was, this is the nudge by needed. I knew I


needed a pension. If you are a 50-year-old owning


�20,000, after 16 years of paying into a scheme with 4% of your


income been taken away every year, you are left with an income at 66,


when they retire, your pension will be �940 a year at! Every year!


if you start saving at 50, not 22, those are the sorts of figures you


will get. The beauty of this is it gets young people in and they can


build on that. We have to get people in earlier. Hand on heart,


can you look at a 50-year-old today, it works out as �18 a week, it is a


pittance. Could you really look at a 50-year-old and say, this is what


you should do? Absolutely. If they invested in a savings account they


do not get the employer contribution. The money is


immediately doubled. The employer contribution bit alarms me. There


is no question that this will increase the burden on small


businesses and that runs counter to the post reshuffle of mood music


that the coalition will make life easier for small businesses. I


wonder if this is a Lib Dem pound of flesh extracted from Michael


Fallon! It has been talked about Labour legislated this, Adair


Turner came up with this idea a decade ago, and with pensions you


want consistent all party support. All the major parties are behind


this because we not have an alternative. People will retire in


poverty if we don't do it. would be bragging in the next


election that this was a concession won by the Lib Dems. I am proud to


be involved with this. These are tough times for people at the lower


end of the income scale. Their income is not going up, and the


things they have to spend money on, these are not discretionary


spending and treats, they have got to pay utility bills and put food


on the table. Because of that, people will say, I cannot afford at


the moment to lose another 4% of my income so I will opt out.


recognise some people may opt out, maybe up to a third, but even then,


maybe 9 million people will be getting into pensions for the first


time. I think it is great. If you got in at the age of 25, and when I


was 25, almost ten years ago now, I did not think about pensions. It is


tough. I wanted the 4% to go and spend it. But if you go in at 25


and you got your three, four and your one up on tax relief, or what


pension would you end up with? you are on �15,000, the state


pension plus this pension will replace most of that so you are


living standards will be about the same. If you are on average


earnings, you need to do more than this, clearly. The challenge is to


get people in in the first place. �140? For a flat-rate pension?


is the figure we are speaking about. The Prime Minister called this the


best thing since sliced bread. He now seems to be less enthusiastic.


Is it going to be dropped and the men did? No. We will publish a


White Paper in the autumn. It will happen and it is the foundation for


what we are talking about today. Get the pension up to a decent


level. The other thing we are seeing is that because the deficit


reduction is not quite going as quickly as the coalition said it


would, and you might not meet the debt target of debts falling to a


percentage of GDP by 2016, the Deputy Prime Minister, Mr Apology,


he said that there would be no further welfare cuts that we would


accept. But yesterday, he said that more cuts were possible. Where are


we? Where are the Lib Dems? We have always taken the view that cuts


have to be made across the board but our priority is to protect the


most vulnerable. That will always be the way that we approach future


discussions about spending reductions. You are not ruling out


further cuts in the welfare budget? We will try to protect the


I mentioned your glorious leader and his YouTube apology, which I


think we'll be a party political broadcast next week as well. Let's


get your reaction. We made a promise before the election that we


would vote against any rise in fees under any circumstances. That was a


mistake. It was a pledge made with the best of intentions, but we


should not have made a promise we were not absolutely sure that we


could deliver. I should not have committed to a policy that was so


expensive when there was no money around, not least when the most


likely way we would end up in government was with coalition with


either Labour or the Conservatives, who were both committed to putting


them up. A sensible idea to apologise at this point? I think it


took guts. We found we had a lot of things we wanted to talk about, the


tax system, the green agenda, sometimes it is landing on deaf


ears. People say, hang on, tuition fees. Do some extent it's in the


past? It is, but some of our own people are still bruised. We are a


party that prides itself on its integrity and this was a damaging


exercise for all of us. I think clearing the air at this point,


rather than letting it run on to the next election, we need people


to believe what we are going to say and we need to know how we can


learn from what went wrong last time. A gamble? It could expose


them to ridicule? You get nowhere if you do not take chances. He knew


that would be on YouTube but he thought it would be the right thing


to do Foster let's look at the # We made a promise we would vote


against any rise in fees, any rise in fees.


# It was made with the best of intentions, the best of intentions.


# We should not have made a promise we were not sure that we can


deliver. # I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm so, so


sorry. # There is no easy way to say I'm


Even you are smiling! We are going to hire those creatives for our


next election campaign! What is he apologising for? We were quite


clear, we went into an election saying we would get rid of fees.


The difference is, when Labour said they would not introduce fees, they


won the election and did it anyway. You are apologising for breaking


the promise, but not apologising for the policy? The policy is about


saying that when you repay, you repay at higher income levels, only


at the end and not up front. Those elements are good. You mentioned


the trust. Surely the allegation is that you cannot trust what people


say in their manifesto because everything is up for grabs in a


coalition? If we could rewind, would we make that pledge again? No.


I think that we have learned from that, making sure everything is


costed out so that you can rely on it. What I was told us that his


motivation comes from the reaction that it is still simmering among


Lib Dem Party activists? I think you confirmed that? It is the


public and the party. He spent a lot of time out there. He does not


hide in Westminster. He senses that time had not healed this one and he


needed to nail it and he has. should say that Nick Clegg has


given permission to release a charity version of that song. Any


profits are given to the Sheffield Children's NHS Foundation Trust.


You agree it was not costed and you never thought the policy would come


into play? Because it was costed, we thought it could not be done in


a single parliament. It was a long- term plan, but an expensive one.


it was an aspiration, if it was not in your four key pledges, why did


Nick Clegg stand there with a big pledge, in such a public display of


commitment to the policy and sign it, if it was an aspiration and a


long-term commitment? That is the irony. If you take our manifesto,


on the front cover it says four things. This was not one of them.


It says taking people out of tax, the pupil premium, the green agenda,


the front of a manifesto went straight into government. But you


grandstand did this. You all went and signed it? Online, we all


signed on to it. We have learned from that. Toby Young, are you


convinced? Will that do it? I hope it becomes a trend. I would like to


see Gordon Brown follow-up with apologising for promising to end


boom-and-bust. I'd like to see David Cameron apologise for going


back on his 2007 referendum to hold a EU referendum. I'd like George


Osborne to promise for -- apologise for not cutting public expenditure,


which he promised to do so. If this is going to be the content of party


political broadcasts now, it will be in every one until the election.


If they are going to do all of these apologies, the programme will


have to go to 90 minutes! It is the Government wasting


millions of pounds on a electric car charging point that only a


handful of people using? A new report from the Transport Select


Committee says the Government has spent �11 million on 1600 public


charging points and grants for new electric cars. But only 1000 cars


have been registered since the start of last year. Despite this,


we have managed to track down an owner of not one, but two electric


cars. Here is Quentin Willson on why more of us should swap the


petrol station for the charging Electric cars. Slow, boring, not


interesting at all. Wrong. I've got two and they are fantastic. It


costs you �1 to do 100 miles in electricity. You can fast charge


one back to 80% in less than 30 minutes. They are simple to own.


Like plugging in your iPad or your charger, just in here, 30 minutes


The first thing you get with an electric car is this amazing


feeling of silence. You will never have experienced it before. And


speed. We've got this new phenomenon of silence Bede, where


you just touched the throttle, like this and you are chasing many


Qubairs, literally. Absolute fruit. -- You are chasing a Mini Cooper,


Quentin Willson has joined us in the studio. We have been joined


from Liverpool by the Labour MP who chairs the Transport Select


Committee, Louise Ellman. You love the cars, but can you believe that


everybody else will be convinced? It will take some time. The in a


urban myths are huge. They are no good, slow and boring. They are


extremely easy to drive. The technology is here and now. The


major point is that we need to establish a market for these cars


as an alternative to diesel and petrol. We have the highest prices


of diesel and petrol ever. You can drive 100 miles for �1. That sounds


incredible. I use these electric cars for all of my urban journeys.


They are quick, interesting... but on the point of urban journeys,


I could imagine having that, maybe if that was a car that I did go


around town in. But as my only car, are you going to convince people


that this is just about supporting affluent people having two cars,


the second one being electric? are right that you can't go to


Manchester and do 300 miles. There are a range of different engines.


But give us time. This is an emerging market that we need to


push. The UK needs to be the world leader in this technology. We can


create jobs, employment and all of this stuff. He murdered the market


now and say it does not work for people because that technology is


not advanced enough, that would be very wrong. Louise Ellman, is this


wishful thinking by the Government or can this transform our transport


strategy and cut carbon emissions? Well, they certainly could


transform transport strategy. The Government say that they hope to


see tens of thousands of electric cars on other roads by 2015. I do


think that we need to review the strategy to achieve this. It does


need much better promotion of the scheme. People need to know where


the charging points are. The issue of expense needs to be looked at.


It might be very cheap to run them, but even with the Government grant,


people can be asked to take between �25,000 and �30,000 to purchase it.


Tax incentives need to be stable. One of the issues we have found is


that the Government has subtly changed the tax regime without any


consultation. The idea is right. The scheme needs to be reviewed and


we need to encourage the purchase of the cars. How do we know the


strategy has been effective? Looking at what has happened, so


few people have actually purchased them. There is not actually public


information about whether charging points out. We are told there are


1600. But when we looked at the public register we could only find


500. There are eight pilot projects but not necessarily where the cars


are being purchased. All of these things need to be looked at so


there can be greater successful stock would you buy one? I would


I did a bit of research, and it turns out the carbon emissions that


are involved in the production of an electric car, not to mention the


lithium batteries, they are much greater than a carbon emissions


generated by the production of a conventional car. If you have one,


you can just about get back into credit, if you use the car for a


very long time. But if you have two, you will never been credit on


carbon emissions. Putting the carbon emissions to one side,


saying, look, something that reduces our dependency on oil, or


diesel, it is going to make the air Peeress anyway. Let's not get too


wound up with how many grams of carbon-dioxide it takes. If less of


us are driving fossil-fuel vehicles, the air quality will be much better.


Louise is right... Wedd has electricity come from? That is


fossil fuel. Wind and wave, as well. That was 1.8% of electricity


generated. Developing that as well, we need a long-term strategy. Why


are we paying 20% VAT on electric cars? How much did they cost?


�25,000 for that one. All of the people that have bought them, and


they say they are getting grants and it is not helping middle-class


people, they pay much less than petrol cars to run them. If you are


spending �11 million subsidising them, it would be better to reduce


the outlay initially for the price of the car? Well, try and get these


prices down by increasing the scale and getting the market to work. 10


years down the line if we say, we did not let the letter cars survive


and fuel is �4 a litre, we will be very sorry. Louise Ellman, have you


driven one of these cars? I have been in one of these cars. The


Riverside Housing Association in Liverpool are using one of these


cars and showed me how effective they thought it was. This is to be


we need to encourage with more incentives. What does it feel like


from the driver's position? We had speed, a modern sensation. Now you


have silent speed. You have this lovely wave of torque because there


is no loss of power because you do not have a conventional gearbox.


They are really great, really orthodox. The industry has really


pushed forward and former careers. Give them more and they will be


looking at batteries with 200 mile range and you can charge them in 10


minutes. You said he would take on a Mini Cooper? Andrew has won, we


can do Air Race! -- a race. Silent Running is not a great thing,


you need to hear this thing bearing Thank you both very much. UKIP is


gathering for its conference in Birmingham today. I bet most of you


did not know that. You do now. Not you, you know everything. What is


their biggest achievement? Coming second in the last elections for


the European Parliament? They got 12 seats in Strasbourg, or Brussels,


anywhere that it meets. Or is their achievement preventing the


Conservatives from getting a majority at the last election?


There is a theory that they cost the Tories about 20 seats because


the Euro-sceptic vote was split. That has got some people thinking


about a ceasefire between the parties in time for the next


Could Nigel Farage helped David Cameron win the next general


election? In this part of north London, the Tory MP has a majority


over Labour of about 100 but 1,000 people voted for UKIP last time so


securing those votes is important for the Conservatives. Hendon is


also the home of the RAF Museum. The perfect place to discuss a non-


aggressive pact between the two parties. I would like people who


voted UKIP and people who vote for the Conservatives can support the


same candidates. At one end of the scale on local deals and the others


are a full merger, as happened in Canada, where they had split up the


Centre Right with disastrous consequences. The important thing


is to get the policy right, which is trusting people to have a say on


this vital issue. A but there are some big factors that might stop


this idea getting off the ground, such as: What if UKIP voters do not


automatically become Conservative voters? Some of them could switch


their support to other parties instead, which would do the Tories


no favours. And what if getting with UKIP actually puts off other


people and ends up costing the Conservatives votes? And what is


too few people in either party really want to go through with it -


- and what if? The idea of a pact does not appeal to UKIP's newest


recruit, Lord Stevens. He was kicked out of the Tory party for


writing a letter urging people to vote for UKIP. The problem the


Conservative have is that UKIP is becoming a serious political party


and I am not sure that UKIP would agree with it. What would the


promise be? And in out referendum? The Conservatives already agreed to


have a referendum on Lisbon and when they came to power, they tore


up that agreement. So it is unlikely the UKIP battle bus will


be dishing out Conservative leaflets any time soon. More


probable is a repeat of the much less exciting situation from the


last election, where UKIP did not run in seats where the Tory


candidate thought broadly along the same lines as Nigel Farage. Adam


Fleming reporting. And we have been joined by the deputy leader of UKIP


Paul Nuttall, and by Katie Hopkins, the former Apprentice contestant


who has announced she's going to stand in the next European


elections for a new party called the I Want A Referendum Party. It


is not clear what their policy is but it is called I Want A


Referendum Party it! Welcome. His you get much of a threat to the


Tories at the next general election -- is UKIP? It remains to be seen


but the prognosis is that UKIP will top the poll in the 2014 European


parliamentary elections and if the Conservatives are still trailing


Labour at that point, I think David Cameron will come under a lot of


pressure at the conference... you have an idea of what that


accommodation should be? I think an electoral pact between the two,


where by the Conservatives promise not to oppose UKIP in a dozen


constituencies, that is unlikely. UKIP would insist as a price for


that that David Cameron commit the party to a referendum in the next


parliament, but that will shoot the UKIP policy anyway it. For would


you be up for the pact if it was on offer? You never say never in


politics. It all depends on where we are in 2015. If we have won


after the European elections and we are pulling double digits, I think


the Conservatives will find it difficult not to come to us because


it will be clear that they will not be able to form a majority without


UKIP support. But in the Westminster elections, you are


essentially a spoiler. You have a lot of seats in Strasbourg but you


have no seats in Westminster, though you may affect the results


for the Tories in some constituencies. Surely, to make a


break into Westminster you need something along the lines that Toby


Young is suggesting, where you get a clear run in some constituencies.


That may be the case but we have policies that appeal to the


Conservative Party, and their grassroots. We are in favour of a


firm immigration policy, zero tolerance on crime, grammar schools.


And the Conservative Party is in trouble because it as halved their


membership since David Cameron has become leader -- it has halved to


their membership. Katie Hopkins. Why don't you just joined UKIP?


Because I think people are tired of parties that promise a lot and do


not deliver. We have been hearing, we are going to give you a


referendum, we don't get it. Now there might be a strategic alliance,


a packed, a coalition. Why not throw the Green Party in there? We


stand for something very simple. We demand a referendum and in the


European elections there will be a candidate fielded in every region


of England and people can go and cross where it says "we demand a


referendum", and it is not the career politicians that tell us


what we think... The is that you're only policy? No. We are fighting on


things like travellers' sites, small businesses to obtain a grant


funding, a number of things. So you like UKIP? You have other policies.


What is the point? We are a very clear party. 30% of the latest


YouGov poll said they would prefer to have a movement that is solely


for demanding a referendum and that is what we will provide.


completely sympathise with Katie's cause, I am a Euro-sceptic, but


because of that I don't think what you are proposing is a good idea. I


want UKIP to top the poll in 2014 to put as much pressure as possible


on the two major parties. If you are fielding candidates against


UKIP, you will divide the anti- EU the voting. This is a very


political perspective you have both got. I am much more representative


of what people are thinking on the sofa. I don't want to be an


apprentice! I will put it to you that if you are fighting for a


referendum, you are fighting the wrong elections because if you


fight European elections, MEPs cannot force an election and a


referendum. Sometimes if I don't want to hear the answer to a


question, I don't ask it. People do not want to ask it. You both all


the same thing but you are splitting the Euro-sceptic in that


referendum vote. We are not getting a referendum! How long have UKIP


been around? We have just delivered another batch of 100,000 signatures


to parliament, we have the largest mobile network of supporters and we


are fed up with waiting for these guys. We want a referendum and we


would it be for the next election. You can deliver as many signatures


to Downing Street as you like, it is pie in the sky. The only way you


could force that is in the ballot box in Westminster. In 2014, people


can mark clearly that they want a referendum. Katie said it was to


enable people to clearly indicate they want a referendum, and they


can do that anyway by signing a pledge. You should support that


pledge, it is a great campaign, not throw up a spoiler to UKIP, who we


want to win in 2014. Are you worried? Sake lay, but we have seen


it all before. -- a vaguely. It will not make that much difference.


I don't wish to join UKIP. We have queues of people waiting to sign up


when we are campaigning in the streets. Why don't you just mad a


takeover of UKIP? -- Mount. Because they haven't delivered. That is the


bottom line. We see them a lot and they talk a lot but they don't


deliver. Where is the referendum that they have delivered? They have


not won enough elections. indeed. That is why we need a new


group of people. How would you be able to do it more effectively?


Weekend have cross-party support. It is not about what party used


belong to -- we can have cross- party support. It is not about


career politicians, it is about the people. What are you going to do


about this? We have seen it all before. We have had a splinter


groups in the past and spoilers in the European elections. Our ground


is too big. We are polling double digits and in all likelihood...


Will there be many Tories like you, Toby Young, saying that they want


UKIP to come ahead of the polls in the European elections? I am


probably not that unusual. If you look at the people who have


defected from the Conservative Party since the last election,


quite a few of them have defected to UKIP precisely on that issue. It


depends on the Tory party's policy about Europe. If Cameron is not


committed at that point to a referendum, yes, I will be voting


UKIP. We need to check about the money involved. I was in Ireland


for the last referendum and the yes campaign out spent the no campaign


20 fold, because the EU were pouring in money. We cannot allow


that to happen again because it will be a repeat of 1975. Thank you.


You're watching the Daily Politics, and we've been joined by viewers in


Scotland who have been watching First Minister's Questions from


Holyrood. It is a big day in Edinburgh. The


economic future of five million Scots, and the fiscal reputation of


the SNP, is being debated, as Finance Secretary John Swinney


reveals his budget statement to the Scottish Parliament. Scotland's


budget comes from a UK government block grant. In other words, taxes


raised centrally by the Exchequer. There is just over 28 billion


available for the coming year. The Scottish government also has the


power to raise, or reduce, the basic rate of income tax by up to


3p, which would generate an extra billion pounds. But, so far, the


option has never been used. Holyrood cannot borrow on the


international markets. But it can take out short-term loans from the


UK central government. So, at the moment, the size of the cake is not


really the issue, just how you distribute it. Money will be spread


among devolved responsibilities like health, education, justice and


policing, transport, economic development, and rural affairs. The


SNP is expected to make three points:. That they are driving


growth, through protecting capital investment and, in particular,


construction. That they are working hard to counter cuts and alleged


economic mishandling from the UK government. That independence would


offer greater powers and thus greater flexibility to assist the


Scottish economy. Scotland's finance secretary will be making


his budget speech this afternoon. Let's talk now to the BBC's


Scotland political editor, Brian Taylor. What has been said? It is


very contentious, this Budget, because it is 42013-14, and 2014 is


the date pencilled in firmly for the referendum on Scottish


independence. We have a different referendum in play up here! John


Swinney is very tightly constrained. Spending cuts of 11% over the four


years up to 2015. But within that, he is trying as much as possible to


revive growth, and he has done that largely by shifting from Revenue


dated in spending on to Capital Investment, particularly housing


and construction. The SNP said it is looking at ending the pay freeze


for public sector workers. They have said that before, but is it


affordable? It is a very, very contentious question. Strictly


speaking, the pay freeze handled by the Scottish government is only the


employees for which they have direct responsibility, civil


servants, NHS, quangos and senior managements, only 20,000 people,


but it sends a signal to a large part of Scotland and they have


followed that pay freeze, due to end in 20th March 13. John Swinney


signalled that he hoped after that to be able to allow a modest


increase. I guess that would be around 1%. He will defend that


argument on the basis that there has been two years of a freeze for


those earning over 21,000 in the public sector, and it is aware of


engendering a bit of a sense of confidence in two people, as well


as pennies and pounds. So while the debate goes on about whether that


is affordable, what about this spat between Iain Duncan-Smith and Alex


Salmond over how Scotland would pay its benefits bill if it were in


dependent? It is a very substantial row indeed. It has an immediate


element, whereby the SNP and the largest opposition party, Labour,


are delighted to be raising this issue and using it to give a


kicking to the UK government, both Tory and Lib Dem, but there is the


longer agenda. Alex Salmond wants to rebut in advance the argument


being made by UK ministers that Scotland could not afford current


levels of expenditure. He says the welfare budget in Scotland is


substantial but Scotland has been a net contributor to the UK, in other


words, the deficit in Scotland is a lower share of GDP than across the


hall of the UK, so both Scotland and the UK are a economically in a


mess but Alex Salmond is arguing that the bigger mess is the rest of


Thank you. Now, would getting a personal text message from the


Government make you more likely to pay your tax bill? How about if you


were told that other people in your town had already paid theirs? It


might sound like something out of the novel Nineteen Eighty-Four, but


it is part one idea known as nudging. There is a whole unit in


Number Ten dedicated to saving money using persuasion techniques.


Sounds ominous. The UK is exporting nudging, with offices in Australia


working with the Government team. I am joined by Grant Shapps. How does


that work, sending a text message? What do they say about getting


people to pay fines and file tax returns? Did they say, please,


please, please? Yes, essentially. It is a way of nudging people into


paying something that is outstanding. It's harder to ignore,


even perhaps than a red letter. It's an interesting idea, when you


think a bailiff's letter, with implicit threats and turning up at


the door would be more effective? You would think so, it must get to


the point when bailiffs would be more effective. But I think this


has saved a lot of visits from bailiffs, about �30 million it is


projected to save. This is one small thing that the unit has been


doing. It's based on a theory called nudging, as you said. A lot


of people might have read a book on the same subject. We turned out to


be the only government and the world that has looked at this, put


it into place and used it in policy development and actually trying to


do things like change people's behaviour. Today, there is a big


announcement on pensions and enrolment. That is also part of


this. That would be an ideal part of the so-called nudging?


Suggesting things to people up front, rather than waiting. I was


involved in an energy conference and there was somebody from the


United Number Ten who said one of the problems they had was trying to


persuade people to change their ways in terms of saving energy.


Loft insulation, a big campaign by the Government, that has not worked.


Why is that? It should make perfect sense, your bills are lower and


your house is warmer. Andy while offering subsidies? He s, and yet


people are still not doing it. What we found is that if you said to


people, actually, we will come and sort your loft out in the process,


you get a free loft spring-clean, it got people giving it. It was


actually just the offer of it being hassle-free. It turned out not to


be... They didn't have to make the cost in the first place? Further to


that, even if you are charging people, the fact it is a simple


service that makes it possible and people are wanting to do it. It's


much less to do with economics than traditional government would


traditionally think. You normally think, or for somebody something of


financial value and they will jump at it. The answer to a lot of this


nudging stuff, a lot of it, is that people will respond to things when


they think other people are doing it. You mention things that your


neighbours are doing. That's an incentive to do it yourself.


Changing people's behaviour has only worked on things like paying


your fine, as a reminder. Has it changed their behaviour


permanently? You will have to do it again. So it's failing to change


the way people behave. It is not changing social norms? We know that


this unit has generated something like 20 times the amount it cost to


run it. It's been very successful. It will continue and be exported to


Australia. Simple examples in housing policy, we relaunched the


right to buy. Using the nudging you did, we worked out that people


wanted to find out what their friends and neighbours were doing.


Then there were much more likely to use the right to buy themselves.


it a good thing? I find it difficult to get past the language.


It's very much like something out of the thick of it, the idea of


being nudged by somebody's unit! It was Steve Holton's baby. The fact


it is not being swept under the carpet, does that signal that he is


coming back? He never left! I would not check his travel arrangements


for off the back of this, but it is a serious project. It is starting


to save large amounts of cash in government. The �200 million will


be attributed to this from the work that has already been done. It is


another small thing. You can laugh at it and say, that does not matter,


or you can see that other governments are interested.


much are you going to make from selling it abroad? That is a nifty


idea. It would be useful. The unit is run out of Downing Street. This


would enable extra people to come and work for it. There are 11


people there at the moment. It's a job creation service? It will


create more employment, if you put it that way, but it means we can do


more domestic work as well. Tell us about the countdown clock. The


countdown clock to the 2015 election? Is this part of your


Nanjing? Is it you nudging your staff? I would not mention it to


any other audience other than the Daily Politics. There are 958 days


to go until the next General Election. I said in Central Office,


put that clock up to remind us that is the deadline, the goal, maybe


quicken our pace. Are you going to have other bench marks between now


and does 958 days? I suspect there will be a lot of them along the way.


It is just to focus people's minds. Maybe we could do with one of those.


We can't see them, because they are all the wrong time! Steve Hilton is


coming back, but not to Downing Street? He's working for you?


but he's not coming back to Downing Street. Chairman of the Tory party,


see, you learn things about your own party.


We like to offer something new two- hour viewers. It's a sort of


matchmaking service for the politically confused. As he watched


the great and the good of Westminster tripping through Aller


Studios, you may have wondered, amide left-wing, am I right wing,


none of the above? We decided to kick off with Richard D North, to


go for as his top five tips for At five, the small state. Richard


thinks that the Government should provide the army and the police,


but not much else. At four, the Anglo-American. He says trust


Britain and the States over France and Germany. At three, be an


elitist. Celebrate the top people in society. Everyone, that is, but


the liberal elite! At two practice tough love. Teachers should not


sugar coat the truth, he says. Don't like it? Tough! Number one,


love capitalism. He says businesses and banks are the best hope and


Richard is with us now. He has written a book that gives readers


ideas about how to be a right- winger. What makes you right-wing?


A bump on the head when young? The lure of the jackboot? Who knows.


Reading the Economist when young, having a nice conservative father?


Being in love with the British constitution? Being rather a anti-


liberal, when the 60s came along with that kind of false hope that


everything would be love. I thought it was a by-product of getting


older and wiser? No, I was right wing a very long time ago. Unlike


Toby. It says when you were a teenager you describe yourself as


an anarchist? You were a green head panned? There is a real continuity


between my punk anarchism and mind libertarian Toryism. Have you got


any photographs? I've destroyed them! Did you move to the right


from these days, as you got a mortgage, a wife, a family? You had


to make a living in the world? not sure, in all seriousness, that


it has been a movement. I was anti- state when I was a teenager and I


am against the state now. I accept now that there has to be a minimal


state, that anarchy would not work. But I have not drifted that far


from my days as an anarchist. love with a very good state, I am


an love with a representative democracy that produces an elitist


government, one mandated by the people in a sensible way. I'm in


love worth the Big Society. But only if it includes firms in the


concept of what Big Society is. I like the idea rob voluntary


organisations. I don't believe they are going to run the world. I think


that firms are going to be incredibly important in providing


welfare. Shrinking the state, growing a wiser capitalism is part


of the right-wing mix. It's terribly important to say that the


right wing is deeply conflicted. A proper right-winger would wake up


one morning and feel quite strongly authoritarian. The next morning,


quite strongly libertarian. One morning quite strongly progressive.


What capitalism can bring his progress. At the same time, in love


with tradition. If you are not a conflicted right winger, you are no


right wing of a tall, in my view, you're just a dunderhead.


people that are right wing, are they privately ashamed? Absolutely.


Partly they have been taught by generations of teachers that it is


a nasty business. It includes Hitler and fascism. It is


fashionable, in the right, to say that these were creatures of the


Left, really. I don't think so. I think they were creatures of the


matter right. The hard nationalist right? A particular kind of writer.


There are many other kinds of right. Actually, I think we ought to


accept that really, in a way, almost everybody is right-wing


except when they are being self- consciously liberal and Labour.


great intellectual at Peterhouse College, when people identify


themselves as Conservative students he would say, are you Conservative


because you believe in conservative values or because you believe in


nothing? The correct answer was the second, not the first. It is


certainly anti-utopianism. It does not necessarily mean that you are a


Tory. You're not necessarily for faith, family and the flag. A


right-winger, especially a Moreton Island young right-winger, I would


say they are interested in globalisation, rather than Little


England. So there isn't a model, it is rather complicated to say what


is it to be right-wing? It's very tough. Unfortunately, the right-


winger asked to see that the buck always stops with one. It is


personal responsibility. Everything is one's fault, as a person. One is


responsible for fixing everything, in a weird way. Not by using the


state. Are you not a bit short of modern icons? The right in this


country still appears Mrs Thatcher. She is the last right-wing icon. In


the United States, the Republicans, it is Ronald Reagan, he is the one


that they Riviere, still. That takes us back to the 80s. Here is


the right-wing icon today? Keith Richard, maybe. Of the Rolling


Stones? You are certainly right, granted, the right wing is very


various. The ones that come to mind, handily, are Mrs Thatcher, a UKIP


sort of person. That is actually a rather narrow conception of what


right-wing is. Margaret Thatcher was incredibly important. Keith


Joseph, another great teeth, incredibly important. Terribly


unfashionable and cast as unpleasant, Enoch Powell. Do you


think it is more fashionable now? Perhaps it was embarrassing to


admit that you were right wing, for young people, it was not trendy?


have just had a huge recession, banks have let us down, the


leadership of capitalism has gone wrong. And yet I see no serious


bark of leftism. Octopi is very interesting and quite charming. But


it is hardly a great push of anti- capitalism from the young. There


doesn't seem to be any intellectual resurgence on the left to match the


intellectual firepower of the right of is it intellectual? Mr Obama


looks to be re-elected in America, the polls at the moment suggest


that Mr Miliband will be the next Prime Minister? Other than that,


Great to talk to you, thank you for coming in. We will also do what it


means to be a left-winger, your guide to being a Nazi... Just


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