21/09/2012 Daily Politics


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Good afternoon. Welcome to the Daily Politics. Are plans to solve


the crisis facing elderly care being blocked by the Treasury?


That's the view of the former Care Minister who lost his job in the


reshuffle. We'll be talking to the man who replaced him. Party


conference season is in full swing. Odds on questions of leadership


could dominate. Luckily, we've got a bookie on hand. Nick Clegg's song


to get to number one - we've got all the latest on Westminster's


runners and riders. What are the odds on UKIP and the Tories doing a


deal ahead of the next election? UKIP's leader has been addressing


his party conference this morning. We'll be asking him just that later.


And Adam's on the green with all the important questions. Believe it


or not, these are the must-have political memorabilia this season.


Well done, Adam. He almost kept it together there. I won't be rushing


out to get a pair of those. And with us for the whole programme


today are Mary Riddell of the Daily Telegraph and the radio presenter


Ian Collins. Welcome to you both. Now, first today let's talk about


the Chief Whip, Andrew Mitchell, who has had to apologise after


making disrespectful remarks to police officers who refused to let


him out of the main gate at Downing Street. He's denied a report in the


Sun that he called the officers "plebs". Well, let's talk to our


political correspondent Gary O'Donohue, who is at the Downing


Street gates. Gary, hello. Hello. Downing Street,


what have they said? They have said that there wasn't any swearing or


shouting by Andrew Mitchell. The allegation is that on Wednesday


evening on his bike, Andrew Mitchell drove up to the main gate


behind me, and he said normally the policeman let him through there.


Instead on this evening they insisted he come through the side


gate, not a million miles away, next to it. There was no argument


according to Downing Street, no shouting, but there were


allegations he used a number of expletives, probably Anglo-Saxon in


their character, that he called officers plebs. However, it was


sufficiently bad there was a face- to-face with the Prime Minister,


and he's due to apologise to the officers and a sergeant, an officer


on duty that day. That is due to happen. The wider issue is that


this is embarrassing at any stage of the game, really, having a


slanging match in the street in you're a Cabinet member, but if the


focus is on the role of the police and what they do, the events in


Manchester, then it starts to become damning. A member of the


back benchs has waded in and described it as unacceptable and


saying he'll tell Mr Mitchell to his face when he sees him. There is


a lot of anger about this. surprising. Norman Tebbit said it


was extraordinarily stupid and suggests he can't take the pressure


of his new job. Is he in trouble over this in terms of his new


position I don't detect that at the moment. These things have a life of


their own, if you know. It will depend on whether or not an apology


draws the sting from this and how complete the apology is. I notice


today the Police Federation say it's a bit halfhearted, the apology


that has been around already. There was a dispute about the facts of


what was said, what wasn't actually said on the day itself, so those


things are still to be cleared up, and - but I don't detect at this


stage that he's really in any big trouble with his job. Of course,


he's the Chief Whip, so he has a sort of perfect reason for fading


into the background. He shouldn't really be a very public figure. You


might think perhaps - I don't know - in the next few days, maybe he'll


get the bus to work. Yes. I wonder if he'll listen to your advice.


Do you think this is going to stick? I think it will stick


because really it sort of says everything about what people think


they think about the Conservative Party. I think it was very


interesting that the one word he really took exception to was the


word pleb. I mean, he said he didn't recognise the form of words,


but if you read the alleged quotes they were fairly juicy, as Gary


suggests. It's the word "pleb" which implies the sort of patrician


Tory on his bicycled wanting the gates open for him, quite happy to


hair angthe police force in the worst week to have done so.


denies he said that word, but the fact that he had to deny that bit


of it and it was disputed, what he did, what does it do in terms of


image for David Cameron? He is always fighting accusations he and


his accolades are toffs. And doing a lousy job of fighting. Here we


have a posh boy, elite in the inner circle of the Cabinet - all of


those feed directly into this problem that David Cameron has.


This guy is a senior member of the inner circle, and here he is having


stand-up row in public with the constabulary which happens to be a


day after some pretty serious news about the police in Manchester, and


here's a senior Cabinet member officer arguing - we know this word


pleb is still up for debate but until Andrew Mitchell actually says


this is what was said... Do you think he needs to come in front of


the cameras? Absolutely, and I think this... Gary mentioned the


police and how high profile they are bearing in mind incidents that


have happened in Manchester. You may or may not remember the Mayor


of London saying actually anyone swearing at the police should be


arrested. Let's listen to his clip. In the same spirit of zero


tolerance I reckon we need to get back to where we were before a law


of 1988 and to make it clear that if people swear at the police, then


they must expect to be arrested - not just -


APPLAUSE Not just because it's wrong to


expect it, in my view, to expect officers to endure profanities, but


I happen to think it is, but it's about the experience of the


culprits. If people feel that there are no comebacks and no boundaries


and no retribution for the small stuff, then I'm afraid they'll go


on to commit worse crimes. Mary Riddell, that'll come back to haunt


them. It will come back to haunt them. Yes, again, more needling by


Boris, albeit inadvertent in this case, but it is true, isn't it? In


this country we have policing by consent. There has been a debate


this week whether police should be around armed, so the deal is that


the police obviously aren't armed - that they behave disrespectfully


towards the public and vice versa. I think for a really senior member


of Government to thwart that, to cross that fairly narrow and


delicate line is a really sort of serious thing because as Boris is


kind of suggesting or implying, if you've got some football hooligan


who had had a couple of pints of lager and was rude to a policeman


on the way - they would be just marched off to the cells before you


could - before Norman Tebbit could say "on your bike", so the fact


that all he's supposedly got to do is apologise... It's irrelevant


he's a Tory. I have lost count of how many arguments I had over


things like the riots when people were accused of saying all manner


of terrible thinks to the police. That seemed fine from the left-wing


perspective but because he's a Tory and on Twitter he was - people were


using words like "posh boys", "Snobby Tories", "Typical Tories."


What about the entrance? I have been in and out all the time.


kind of character wants gates open to ride a push-bike out? It's all a


matter of prestige because there is no detail involved. You just get


off and push your bike. That's all he had to do. Maybe he won't be


standing for an elected Police Commissioner.


In just over a decade the number of people over the age of 85 in


England is expected to double, and as the population ages, there's an


urgent need to find more money to help pay for our care in old age.


It's one of the most pressing long- term decisions facing the


Government. But plans to solve the looming crisis are apparently being


"blocked by the Treasury" - that's the view of the former Care


Services Minister, the Liberal Democrat MP Paul Burstow. After


losing his job in the recent reshuffle, he's written a strongly


worded article in today's Daily Telegraph warning the Treasury not


to duck the issue. He says, "The Treasury's view is simple - kick


the can down the road despite our rising elderly population." He also


has a message for David Cameron and Nick Clegg, saying he fears "the


Coalition could be tempted to put care financing back in the 'too


difficult to do' drawer." By 2026 the number of people aged over 85


in England is expected to double to around 2.4 million. The average 65-


year-old today faces lifetime care costs of �35,000, but these can


vary wildly. A commission led by the economist Andrew Dilnot


published its findings last year. It proposed a cap on individual


care costs of �35,000, after which the state should pay. Ministers are


considering a watered-down version which would impose a "voluntary


cap" which would only protect those who paid a fee to opt in. But Paul


Burstow says this idea is "dangerous".


Well, earlier I spoke to Norman Lamb. He succeeded Paul Burstow as


Care Minister and is also a Lib Dem MP. I asked him if he agreed that


the plans to reform care funding were being blocked by the Treasury.


Well, look, I'm a fortnight into the job, and so I can't give an


assessment of the full position, but that's not the impression I get,


and certainly as a new Care Minister, I am determined that we


see this through. This is one of the areas of public policy which is


long overdue for reform, and it's been sort of pushed into the long


grass for far too long now, and you may remember before the last


general election, I tried to get cross-party talks going to get a


solution here, and I argued the case for a commission, so we've


made a lot of progress. I think it's really good news that the


Government has said that it supports in principle the idea of


the cap. I was encouraged by what David Cameron said over the summer,


so I think the next stage is to seek agreement on how we can fund


it. I'm sorry to put this to you, but what progress has been made? I


mean, there's no progress at all. Nothing has been agreed since


Andrew Dilnot published his report and recommendations, and you do


agree with Paul Burstow. You say it has been kicked into the long grass.


He agrees with that. He says it's the fault of the Treasury. Do you?


When you say no progress has been made, I just disagree with that.


Tell me what's been agreeed? No cap has been agreed no. Money has been


found to fund... But the model of care which is the critical starting


point, has now been accepted in principle. That's an incredibly


important starting point. Now we have to work out how it's funded.


take your point that you've agreed in principle to a cap to give


people some assurance about how their long-term care is paid for.


Where should that cap be? In there is no agreement on that, you'll


never have progress. Well, look, I haven't got a figure that I can


give you today that is my sort of settled view because, of course,


whenever you put the cap has implications for the cost of the


whole programme, but it has to be at a level that gives people the


reassurance that the assets that they've sort of - often worked for


throughout their lives remain secure. If it's too high, it won't


give that reassurance, and it won't also give an incentive to the


inshurns industry to provide products to fill that gap. But what


is affordable? Be honest with viewers. Is it true that there is


no money to spend on this at the moment. That's why it hasn't been


agreed. The former Health Secretary Andrew Lansley said in the current


spending environment, the Government will have to consider


the Andrew Dilnot recommendations carefully against other restraints


and calls for resources. There is no money for this, is will? I take


the view this is a priority. It's an unreformed system. There needs


to be more than just Dilnot. The Government's bill we plan to take


through next year will reform the whole social care system in a very


positive way giving new rights to carers and those who are cared for,


but the fact is that you have to reach judgments about when it is


introduced, the level of the cap and, critically, how it's paid for.


You can pay for it by cutting other things, or you can pay for it...


you think it should be paid for by cutting other things if it's that


much of a priority? In my view, it has to be paid for in a way that is


progressive, that is based on your ability to pay. You have to try and


be fair both in terms of people's capacity to pay but also in terms


of inter-generational fairness. Could the working-age population


actually stomach anymore burden in terms of tax, or should the burden


apply in later years? These are the decisions that you have to discuss


across the parties to reach agreement, and that's what I am


intent on doing. One of the biggest areas of concern is dementia and


how you deal with it and how you pay for it and the carers that are


involved. What's your response to recent reports that big


pharmaceuticals are decreasing their funding for dementia after


several costly clinical trial failures? I think some of those


reports may be misleading. We're planning major event next month


with Government coming together with the pharmaceutical industry to


look at working together, and in a sensuousing the UK's remarkable NHS


system as a basis for undertaking the research that could lead to a


breakthrough. The Government itself is doubling the amount of money


that we're spending on research on dementia. It's part of the Prime


Minister's dementia challenge. The message today for everyone is, if


you know a loved one who you feel may be displaying early signs of


dementia, have that difficult conversation. Talk to them and get


them along to a GP, your GP, because early diagnosis can make a


real difference. It can improve health and well being. Actually,


also, it reduces the cost of care in the long run and avoids a crisis


occurring. Norman Lamb, it's conference season, of course. That


won't have passed you by. How is Nick Clegg going to deal with the


leadership issue at the conference? Look, Nick is, as you might have


noticed, actually, remarkably resilient. The pressure he has been


under - some of the personal abuse he's faced during the last two-and-


a-half years would have broken many a lesser person than Nick, but he


keeps going because, actually, the bottom line is, we're doing the


right thing working in the national interests, working with another


party, and, you know, political stability at a time of real


economic danger and turbulence is a priceless asset, and in time, I


suspect that people might actually reach the view that Nick should be


applauded for that. He has taken the very difficult decision to go


into this coalition and to keep making it work. Still be here by


2015? For that he should be recognised. Still be here by 2015?


Absolutely. He has to say that. Let's go back to the initial report


about care. Paul Burstow, in my experience, is not a man prone to


angry outbursts. Do you believe what he says that the Treasury is


blocking it? Absolutely. I think Paul Burstow is a well-regarded


Minister in that job. The point he makes that the Treasury have kicked


it into the long grass, that they actually won't stump up the money


needed I think has been one of the best kept secrets in politics


because everybody suspected that for a very, very long time. The


thing is with the Dilnot proposals, which everybody - all the parties


signed up to and welcomed, there is some tail-end cost involved. If you


bring in a voluntary insurance scheme, and the idea of only


providing help to people who have paid into that, obviously, would


discriminate against the very poorest or - sorts of people. That


wouldn't work. But it does mean that the state has to pick up some


of the tab. And that's where the Treasury is thought to be drawing


the line. As your report made really clear, this has been going


on for years and years. We have had one commission and Sutherland.


Everybody has looked at it. I think it's an overlooked word in politics


but there is a cries was this elderly population as well as


people with dementia going up. This is as big as the NHS Bill in


itself. One of the reasons he said about it being quietly tucked away


and no one else is talking about it is probably true. I do not think it


is because the Tories do not want to help people. That is about the


image they had asked the Government. It is about the enormity of the


project. This will be just as big and problematic and cause just as


many problems. I take you do not think it will succeed? We will not


see any figures being put down on paper until the end of this


Parliament. I wonder if it might nudge them... It should be in the


next Spending Review. It will be interesting to see what effect this


intervention has. The magnitude is similar to the NHS. You cannot


afford to do it and you cannot afford not to do it. The failure of


social care has huge knock-on costs to the NHS. Lots of elderly people


are in hospitals because there is nowhere else for them to go. It is


a huge waste of public resources and getting worse all the time.


are you thinking of putting a Trixie on the Police Commissioner


elections? How about a flutter on an Ed Miliband victory - on the


nose - or a pony on David Cameron? What about a Yankee on the American


Senator elections? As long as you don't welch on a bet on House of


Lords reform or boundary changes. Perhaps you are more of an ethical


individual than my producer and you don't understand any of those


gambling terms. In that case, here's Susana Mendonsa explaining


exactly how political betting has Look at the odds, check out the


form, and choose which ones to back. Not horses. I am talking political


beasts. We have been gambling our cash away it on them for centuries.


People were betting on who would be the next Pope as far back as 1503.


That was until Gregory the 14th banned all betting on Papal


elections on pain of execution. It was the Tory leadership battle


after Harold Macmillan resigned that gave us the political gambling


back. And the arrival of the high street bookie. Betting shops became


legal in 1961. That meant everyone could have bet. Before it was


restricted to the wealthiest. we bet on all sorts. Like the arts


that Eric Pickles would be spotted in a curry house during the Tory


conference. -- the odds. He posted this picture on Twitter of which


forced the bookies to pay up. Ken Clarke, falling asleep during the


Budget, got odds of 16 to one. John Major becoming Prime Minister 93 to


one. Screaming Lord Sutch backed himself to become Prime Minister at


15 million to one. What about the prospects of David Cameron holding


on? Five to one. What about Ed Miliband? Five to four. You could


do was put a tenner on yourself to become Prime Minister. Justin


Tomlinson and Chris Kelly, the MP for Dudley South, where the two


gentlemen who had those bets. They are on the first rung towards


becoming Prime Minister. They have until 2038 to do it. At odds of


50,000 to one, that will be half a million quid a piece. What you


prefer? Courses of Paul -- politicians? Horses. Horses are


prettier. I picked out ciders. I pick the colours and I would not


pick blue. -- pick colours. When Tony and Cherie Blair were


expecting an addition to the family, someone asked us what odds it would


turn out to be an alien. personal favourite was whether


Boris Johnson would set fire to his hair with the Olympic torch was up


the odds were 66 to one. Alex Donohue from Ladbrooks is on the


Green. He has got a few odds up his sleeve ahead of the Lib Dem, Labour


and Tory conferences. What are the odds on the party leaders still


being in their jobs at the time of the election? The great news is


that they are all odds on to keep their jobs right until the next


election. Nick Clegg has the shortest odds not to have his job.


He is 5 to four. Those odds have shortened recently. If their


leaders do believe in them, they're all odds on to keep their jobs


until the next election. What about the favourite for the next Prime


Minister? It has to be Ed Miliband. Boris Johnson is 12 to one. After


the Olympics every mum wanted to back him to become an MP. Boris


Johnson for Prime Minister, it could cost the bookies a few quid I


imagine. Everyone will be watching that. If we look Boris Johnson


angling for a comeback, is it likely? We think it could be quite


likely. We are offering odds of two to one that he will be an MP in any


walk anywhere in the country before an election. -- any water. Quite


short odds about Boris turning to politics, possibly at the highest


level. Very tempting for a flutter. I can see the Miliband brothers.


Perhaps they are patching up their differences. If you think they're


going to have on stage at conference, 20 to one. We have seen


it before. Will we see it again? 20 to one says they will. What about a


comeback from Tony Blair or Gordon Brown? Of the two of them, if


either of them, it is Tony Blair. Gordon Brown, you might as well


name your price. 200 to one foot stuck I would probably want to


stick another zero on that before I had a bet. -- one. What do that the


odds on the Nick Clegg charity song Getting to number one -- what about


the odds on the Nick Clegg charity song Getting to number one?


promised we would vote against any rising these. It was made with the


best of intentions. It is very catchy. The latest odds on that


becoming number one, is that more were less likely than Nick Clegg


stepping down as leader? The bigger odds are it gets to number one.


Maybe they might become connected at some point. That could be the


Christmas number one. I said that yesterday. I notice something


mischievous on your board. What about a new job or career changed


for Andrew Neil? 1000 to one for him to become Prime Minister.


you very much. Rick Nye from Populus is with us now. How bloody


do you think the conference will be? I do not think it will be


bloody but it will be quite sombre. Nick Clegg needs to impress upon


his own party that they are making a difference by being part of the


coalition. He needs to be able to show they have different from the


Conservatives while, at the same time, showing that the coalition,


as an entity, can actually work. The worst place for him to


endeavour is being different from the Conservatives but in a way that


makes the coalition useless. If that is the case, why would anyone


vote for the Liberal Democrats? That means a vote for the coalition


government in that case. What about the Nick Clegg song? The idea he


could come out to say sorry at this stage... It some people were saying


he might not have his heart in continuing as Lisa B on 23rd team.


I do not think it is a bad thing. - - as the leader beyond 2013. It


says to his party, look, we were responsible for coming up with this


idiotic, unrealistic pledge in the first place and we are jointly


responsible for the consequences of that. Getting rid of me will not


solve that problem. Throwing it forward, if you think about the


policies they will be voting on to enter the next manifesto, they must


be realistic, otherwise the same thing will happen all over again if


they are in coalition with Labour or the Tories after the next


election. What to think that the chances of Nick Clegg as becoming


leader? -- what do you think? will be loads of leadership talk.


Maybe he should come in with a song at the next Tory conference. A lot


of these things in politics are about perception. That has an


unfortunate habit of becoming reality very quickly. He said sorry


about the fees. The Labour Party never ever said sorry. They hardly


said a word about that. As an anti- Clegg bandwagon, it suits. He will


probably face, as we get into 2013/2014, some serious contention


when it comes down to leadership. We have been trying to tread the


fine line between differentiating - - differentiating between the


Tories and being part of the coalition. Will he achieve that?


will be very difficult for him. There is momentum the other way


with Vince Cable and the social Democrat wing of the party moving


maul over to the left. Somehow, it is absolutely right. -- more over.


The Lib Dems need their unique selling point. They are not going


to get the old voters they lost to Labour back. Their bluff has been


called in all sorts of ways. That will be the trick for this


conference. They are in a no-man's land. They have got huge chunks of


their manifesto into government. It is almost as if none of that has


happened. It is about one policy. It is essentially about the one


policy. Picking up on what Mary said about coalition and Vince


Cable and the idea of him being leader and some sort of combination


with the Labour, interesting that Harriet Harman has not that on the


head. Our Labour feeling more confident in winning an outright


majority? It is difficult for the Labour Party to forgive parts of


the Liberal Democrat Party and compete for the votes of their


disaffected voters at the same time. Labour has to be tough. It is in a


position where it has to be tough. The Liberal Democrats have a


problem where, the people who do not mind the fact they went into


coalition with the Conservatives, are not actually that keen on


Liberal Democrat policies. The people who are attracted by Liberal


Democrat policies will never forgive them by having gone into


coalition with the Conservatives. The tuition fees figures are a


metaphor as much as a policy issue. What about Ed Miliband? You say


Labour can afford to feel confident at the moment but Ed Miliband is


still less popular than David Cameron. At the moment it is going


fine for Labour. There was a poll this week which put them 15 points


ahead. That is the biggest gap this Parliament. They do not Theale, I


think, as though the up doing anything. They are seeing things


being done to the Conservatives and the Liberal Democrats. -- they are


doing anything. It is about whether they use this conference to kick on.


Begin to flesh out what a Labour government might look like and what


Ed Miliband might do. Ed Miliband has made no policy announcements


I think it will be much more addressing the issue you raise, the


image problem really and selling Ed Miliband a bit more if they can to


the electorate, and there is no doubt he's improved in his public


performances, but clearly, there's some ground to make up there. By


the way, just going back to the Nick Clegg thing, I think this song


will do misdemeanor a lot of good because it puts him into this


wonderful area where he doesn't look like a politician anymore. He


looks a bit off the wall. Is that because you're the leader of a


political party... I think it's a turning point for Nick Clegg.


get back to you on that. leadership of all the parties I


suppose you could say won't be an issue for Ed Miliband. No, he's


safe. If public I hadly he doesn't poll as good as David Cameron, what


about for David Cameron, there is no real threat, is there, to his


leadership? I don't think so I think people will make a lot about


Boris Johnson. He'll have his slot at the party conference because


there won't be much else to talk about. The media will want to talk


lots about Boris Johnson, but yes, the mechanics don't work anyway in


terms of how he gets back into Parliament and the circumstances


under which he would stand. Second of all, I just don't know the Boris


phenomenon is as potent outside of London or the media that tends to


be based outside of London as people think it is. What sort of


feel is it going to be then at the Conservative Party Conference?


think at the Conservative Party Conference they're looking for


David Cameron do lay out a vision, if you like. In a world where you


can't tell people how long the journey is going to take in terms


of getting to the other side of a recession and into recovery, what


you can do is tell them what the destination will be like when they


get there, and I think David Cameron has never really quite been


able to draw that out and sell that to people. He needs to crystallise


that but I think also going back to that kind of elitist image problem,


they have a huge issue there. Unless they begin to address - the


problem with somebody like Andy Coulson - say what you like about


him, but there was almost a - somebody who was grounded in terms


of advising the Prime Minister. I think that's what he's lacking at


the moment. The problem he's got about this elitist image - the


people advising him are from the same background. Of course all of


his Big Society stuff and things with a wider appeal to a wider sort


of tranche of the electorate have largely gone, so I think the


stopper is going to be the economy. On the economy, I mean, what is the


story they are going to tell? At the moment, it's still flat lining


no, growth. We don't know what the next figures are going to be.


They're possibly going to dump the debt target, possibly look at the


deficit target. How damaging is that to the Osborne-Cameron brand?


I think it's very damaging but at the moment there is a bit of an


establishment consensus behind them that the Governor of the Bank of


England, as you mentioned, has paved the way to dropping that very


important fiscal rule, and is kind of suggesting that if that happened,


it would be because of the economy and forces outside their control


rather than anything that they've done wrong, whereas, of course,


Labour will say, your plan A isn't working. What are you going to do


next? That's the stasis we're still at. Weeks of fun to be had in the


next month or so. Thank you very much.


Now, should England have its own thinks, so and they're holding


their annual conference in St Albans next week. They're the


English Democrats. I am joined from College Green by their leader Robin


Tilbrooke. Welcome. Thank you very much. What do you hope to achieve


with your conference? Obviously, we're launching our mayoral


candidates for the police commissioners. We're also starting


to prepare for the next County Council elections, and we're


launching an initiative to start progress towards having a great


charter for England in readiness for the 800th anniversary of the


Magna Carta. How successful do you really think you're going to be?


Well, I think we are making some progress as a party. We're building


up. In terms of numbers, in terms of organisation, in terms of where


we're standing, in terms of - one of the all-important things about


politics in this country, which is money, so we are make some progress.


I'm quite upbeat about it. You're upbeat. You say on your website


"For too long England has been shamelessly abused, compromised and


pillaged by successive Westminster administrations" - quite forceful


language. Given England is a pretty prosperous part of the union, what


do you mean by that? Well, if you think about it, there are parts of


England which are prosperous. There are plenty of parts of England that


are not at all prosperous, and yet we have a system where the British


political establishment through the Barnett formula give more money in


subsidies to rich parts of Scotland than poor parts of England, and the


same would be true of other parts of the United Kingdom. England


isn't currently represented at all in the political process, and so we


often get the raw end of the deal. You're seeing that with NHS cuts,


for example. You have to admit that that characterisation, even if some


people are sympathetic to it, given that the 101 candidates that you


put up for election in the May local election, not a single one


was elected, so they just don't see it the way you do. I think to be


fair, it's early days for our party. We have only been going since 2002.


We're - the fact that we were able to put up so many candidates is


quite an achievement for a party of our age. Of course, you have to


bear in mind that the establishment parties spent literally tens of


millions on that election, whereas our budget was tiny. I mean, you


know, outline how you would see an English Parliament working in


practise. Well, I think the issue is that we need not only an English


Parliament in terms of the representation function but we also


need an English First Minister in Government in order to put us on a


footing of any parity with England and Wales and Northern Ireland. We


would also need an English Secretary of State within the


Whitehall system. Otherwise, England is simply not going to be


properly represented in the whole process of Government. That means


we're simply not going to get the kind of resources spent on our


interests that are spent on the other nations of the United Kingdom.


Yes, and a lot of people will agree with you on that, and they'll


sympathise, so is it that your message isn't getting across? Why


isn't it getting across? Is it because it's obscured by some of


the more extreme rhetoric that surrounds the party? No, I don't


think, so and I don't think we are particularly extreme about what we


say, but the fact of the matter is opinion polls are showing that


people are getting our message. What we haven't yet achieved is


that the - the brand awareness of our party is not at the level that


we need it to be in order to start winning major elections. All right.


Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Now, MPs have


been on a break - another one - from Parliament since Tuesday to


give them a chance to iron their shirts, polish their shoes and


finish their speeches ahead of their party conference, but that


doesn't mean it has been a quiet week at Westminster. No. Here is


David Thompson with the week in 60 seconds.


It was back to the future time this week - GCSEs out, old-style O-


levels in as Education Secretary Michael Gove shook up exams for 14


to 16-year-olds. We believe it is time to raise aspirations and


restore rigour to our examinations. Labour MP Paul Flynn got thrown out


of the Commons for using the L word that rhymes with "pants on fire." ".


But I have to insist on retaining my accusation of lying. Not in


their backyards. On Thursday, two London councils went all NIMBY on


the Government scheme to let people extend their homes without planning


permission and Lib Dem leader Nick Clegg proved sorry isn't the


hardest work. We shouldn't have made a promise we weren't


absolutely sure we could deliver. Only to find his apology over


broken tuition fees promises given the auto tune treatment by internet


pranksters. # I'm sorry


# I'm so, so, sorry # There is no easy way to say I'm


sorry # Do you get the feeling the Daily


Politics likes that tune from Nick Clegg? Must be the third time we


have played it at least. Let's look back at the week. Mary Riddell,


GCSE s on their way out - back to the future with E-BACCs - do you


think it will happen? I have a feeling it might, actually. I can't


see that - obviously, it doesn't even start - the first wave of


implementation - until 2015, but if there is a way - if head teachers


like it, if parents like it and so on, then I think if a Labour


Government did get in next time they'd probably have trouble


reversing it. You do think that? think there is a sort of mood


that's going Michael Gove's way. I think there is a kind of view of


academies and even free schools that isn't the same as it was at


all last time... Andrew Adonis always said Labour should claim


that as their policy. In fairness, it was. It was he and Tony Blair


who brought it in. For this E-BACCs - just looking at the GCSE it seems


to me is wrong. If you're doing a big reform, make it a root and


branch one. The baccalaureate in France would go all the way through


to the A-level stage and so on. Also, I think there is a problem


with the kids who aren't passing five GCSEs at the moment. What's


going to happen to them? What about the delay? Looking at it from a


practical point of view, if it's not going to be brought in until


2015 and Michael Gove has made it very clear he thinks GCSEs are


discredited, why not bring it in straight away? It's one of the


great mysteries of Government, isn't it? If they want to put up


the price of petrol that happens the next day. They come in with a


policy that makes a bit of sense, it comes in half a decade away. As


Mary said, I think Labour and the Tories are actually closer than


some would quite like to admit frankly on this. Also, if you said


to most member of the public, "Do you want to make exams more


rigorous with more integrity" - I think most people will endorse that


there will be some people who will think it's harking back to the '50s,


but I think secretly if you could educate our kids in a better, more


thorough way, who is going to argue? What about planning? It was


an interesting story this week about having had a huge hurrah over


conservatories so people don't have to get permission, and Richmond has


said no. It was something out of The Thick of It, really. Here we


are in a coalition Government that thought they'd come out with


something that looked to be generous that - I don't know if it


was ever going to kick start the economy, but looked to be knocking


on the right doors, Richmond have come along and said not in our


backyard. And now there is two of them. It seemed to be such a hand-


fisted thing for Tories to do. Of course, the people who are


protesting are the people that - not in the nice, leafy suburbs who


don't want a monstrosity going up in next door's garden. The


Government aren't very Conservative when it comes to conserving things


in the green belt and bits of England... I don't - I don't know


if it's a U-turn, but it's again one of those policies that comes


down to the presentation. I think Bob in Arbroath who might live on


the 54th floor in a tower block won't be worried about whether or


not they're going to put an extension... Mary said it's


Conservative seats... Conservatives are going to worry if


there is a free fall. It's going to make such a tiny difference.S.


the small stuff. Now they face double embarrassment of people not


wanting to do it. They're knocked out, I think, if


Richmond and this other one are doing so, then, yeah, it doesn't


bode very well. We'll watch it, wait and see. Earlier this


afternoon, the leader of UKIP gave the key-note speech at his party's


conference in Birmingham. In a moment I'll speak to Mr Farage. But


first, here he is speaking about Having spent nearly 20 years of


hard work, sacrifice, and much mockery building UKIP into a


political brand in this country that is now connecting with


millions of ordinary men and women out there, you have my insurance I


am not going to sell this party short for any political gain. -- my


assurance. There is no way on earth I will do that.


The only way we would consider the negotiation of any time -- kind at


all, was if a promise were made to give this country a fall, free and


fair recommend them - has never referendum to decide if we could be


members of the European Union or not. -- a fair referendum. Welcome


to the programme. You probably heard yourself a few seconds ago.


You are considering it. If those conditions were met and there were


that deal signed in blood to give a referendum, you would go for it.


Let's be clear what is happening. The Euro-sceptics in the Tory Party


are screaming at David Cameron same, Lib Dems will go off to Labour.


UKIP are at 10% of the polls and you must do a deal with them. They


are calling for a deal. I have said I will not do a deal that


compromises the party for short- term political game. -- gain. I


said we would be crazy not to considerate but we could not


negotiate anything until it absolutely knew that this country


was going to get the full, free and fair referendum on EU membership.


What conversations are you having with members of the Tory Party


along those sorts of lines? We're not having any conversations


formerly with the Tory Party whatsoever. We're having lots of


conversations with patriotic Euro- sceptics in the Conservative Party,


at all levels, who are finding it difficult to survive under the


leadership of David Cameron. Many of them hope and believe that David


Cameron will do the right thing and will respond to this treaty the


we're told we have to have. I would say, if David Cameron does not


deliver on and in/out referendum, what you will see his many more are


Euro-sceptics from the Conservative Party carrier Cross and joining


UKIP. -- coming across. Is it partly the problem with your party


bet you are characterised as the Euro-sceptic alternative to the


Conservatives? -- that you are. That is unfair. People


underestimate, particularly in the Midlands and the North, how many


older votes that UKIP takes. It appeals to the left and right of


the political spectrum. Looking at the opinion polls, the share of the


vote in terms of intention to vote, has travelled in the last two years.


They are beginning to connect with people. -- has trebled. That is


about how Britain should be governed as well as who. On that


basis, the deal makes perfect sense. If you can extract that pledge -


whatever it would look like - and not sure what you would want them


to do to keep to the cast-iron guarantee. You would get some seats


at Westminster. That may well happen. My focus at the moment is


on the police and crime Commission elections, the Corby by-election,


the council elections next year. This party is upbeat. We are


pushing forwards. The most likely way this country will get the right


referendum is if you pit becomes stronger. I think people -- UKIP


becomes stronger. We are not given a hope bite anyone in 1999 and


three of us got elected. In 2009, we came second, beating the


governing Labour Party of the day. The winners in 2009 was David


Cameron. He has broken his pledge. We can all see that the European


Union is turning into a state. I think we have every chance. What


percentage of the vote are you aiming for? That is the key. What


percentage IU aiming for in 2014? Up to win the Euro elections,


probably 27% would win. -- to win. That is you hope. What are you


going to say? This is not some pipe dream. We have been proved to be


right on this European election. Write about the eurozone. Right at


the cost of British Industry. We have been right. People know that.


What about the logo? You might be in favour of dumping the �logo?


That has been fantastic for our party. It showed people what we


stood for and has served as incredibly well. Lots of voters


under the age of 40 did not know there was a threat to the pound.


Perhaps we should move to a forward looking symbol of. I make one


promise. They are not going to do what the post of his stick with


insignia and got rid of something that worked very well for rubbish.


-- is stick with insignia. Her how big a threat is UKIP in terms of


worrying the Conservatives? Quite a big threat. He is on a roll. You


can understand why. There are an awful lot of malcontents, not any


outside the Conservative Party, but within it, he would have every


sympathy with that. The EU referendum is now common currency


as the talking point - not only for the Conservatives - but also for


the Labour Party. It might appear in both the main parties'


manifestos. It is conceivable. I think Nigel Farage might do really


well in the European elections. It is true that they translate their


in 2009. Where I think he is mistaken is there is a deal to be


cut. -- they trounced Labour. There is plenty of gumption from within


his own party. It is great publicity for Nigel Farage and UKIP,


talk of Conservatives running scared and the rest of it. One


could argue the most likely way of getting a referendum would be


through the Conservatives and not UKIP. They're a bit like a bad


reality show. You think it will never come back and they do every


election. One of the last polls showed that UKIP were doing better


than the Lib Dems. They are a dividing party when it comes to


domestic politics. They have never had a Member of Parliament in


Westminster. I do not think they ever will. They will dilute the


Conservatives. They're looking for an absolute agreement from David


Cameron to say we're having a referendum. There is more chance


of... There is more chance of David Cameron getting in at the Met -- at


the next election. As we get closer to 2015, there is a real risk of


the Conservatives, if the Liberal Democrats have not built any more


support and UKIP is into double figures, they need to look at the


numbers and pink map what a a going to do at the next election if we


need to have a coalition? -- and think, what are we going to do?


lot of people in the Conservative Party have been so uneasy about


coalitions. How you hold the coalition together on one hand and,


on the other hand, make yourself a coherent and electable Conservative


government of future, is a very difficult trick. Let's ask the big


question of the day. Up all politicians pants? Over to you,


Adam. A what you get the political man who has everything? How about


these political pants. They'll Y- fronts with politicians on them.


You have Ann Widdecombe, captain and a ring, Nick Clegg, the Iron


Lady and Boris Johnson, who is apparently the biggest seller. The


people who make those save their website has crashed 14 times


because so many people have been ordering them. This is Paul Hayes.


If you have stashed them in your attic, will you get any cash?


could be a good investment for the future. Boris Johnson might be the


market leader now. The ones that people do not buy now will be the


collectible as of the future. To get them signed will make them more


collectible. -- collectibles. A lot of political memorabilia of,


President Gorbachev and the Cold War. Beria's President Brezhnev.


That is worth about �60. -- there is President Brezhnev. This is the


2008 election of President Obama. This one is already very


collectible. I have seen things from the moon landings. Deveney


something to collect. -- definitely. A bottle of Gordon Brown beer. I


remember this at the Tory Party conference in 2009. A It is amazing


that it has not been drunk. -- it is amazing. People love to collect


beer mats and bottles and all that kind of thing. It is a great


collector book of the future. at this! A Labour Party diary.


is the coalition government with Winston Churchill. You have got


Lord Bevin and Clement Attlee in there. The nice thing about this


one is it is amused and in great condition. It is a collector's item


of the very important time. It is a bit empty. Wouldn't it be


marvellous to say, we went to the Houses of Parliament today and


talked about things? These up campaign badges. They date from


Nixon and President Al Gore. I remember that period - the 1990s.


People were a bit happier and had more cash. They cost about a tenner


each. Do you want to buy some? have some Obama ones from the


election. They are designed to be thrown away. They do not survive in


large numbers and are very collectible. We have saved the best


till last. That is prices, especially if it is full of tea. If


you get all the team to sign it, I can take it away. That is way above


my pay grade, decided if we're allowed to do that. How big is the


market for political memorabilia? The 19th century seems to be where


it is with Disraeli and Gladstone in this country. By the rarer items


- items at a design to be thrown away. -- items that are designed.


am off to Peckham market to see how much I can flog this for. Best of


luck. I do not think it will buy you lunch. Thanks to our guests.


You'll have to think about who you will like on your political pants.


The 1 o'clock News is starting over on BBC One. Andrew will be back


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