21/09/2012 Daily Politics


21/09/2012

Jo Coburn with the latest political news and interviews, including care minister Norman Lamb and UKIP leader Nigel Farage.


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Transcript


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Good afternoon. Welcome to the Daily Politics. Are plans to solve

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the crisis facing elderly care being blocked by the Treasury?

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That's the view of the former Care Minister who lost his job in the

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reshuffle. We'll be talking to the man who replaced him. Party

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conference season is in full swing. Odds on questions of leadership

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could dominate. Luckily, we've got a bookie on hand. Nick Clegg's song

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:01:13.:01:14.

to get to number one - we've got all the latest on Westminster's

:01:14.:01:24.
:01:24.:01:24.

runners and riders. What are the odds on UKIP and the Tories doing a

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deal ahead of the next election? UKIP's leader has been addressing

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his party conference this morning. We'll be asking him just that later.

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And Adam's on the green with all the important questions. Believe it

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or not, these are the must-have political memorabilia this season.

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Well done, Adam. He almost kept it together there. I won't be rushing

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out to get a pair of those. And with us for the whole programme

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today are Mary Riddell of the Daily Telegraph and the radio presenter

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Ian Collins. Welcome to you both. Now, first today let's talk about

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the Chief Whip, Andrew Mitchell, who has had to apologise after

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making disrespectful remarks to police officers who refused to let

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him out of the main gate at Downing Street. He's denied a report in the

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Sun that he called the officers "plebs". Well, let's talk to our

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political correspondent Gary O'Donohue, who is at the Downing

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Street gates. Gary, hello. Hello. Downing Street,

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what have they said? They have said that there wasn't any swearing or

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shouting by Andrew Mitchell. The allegation is that on Wednesday

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evening on his bike, Andrew Mitchell drove up to the main gate

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behind me, and he said normally the policeman let him through there.

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Instead on this evening they insisted he come through the side

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gate, not a million miles away, next to it. There was no argument

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according to Downing Street, no shouting, but there were

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allegations he used a number of expletives, probably Anglo-Saxon in

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their character, that he called officers plebs. However, it was

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sufficiently bad there was a face- to-face with the Prime Minister,

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and he's due to apologise to the officers and a sergeant, an officer

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on duty that day. That is due to happen. The wider issue is that

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this is embarrassing at any stage of the game, really, having a

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slanging match in the street in you're a Cabinet member, but if the

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focus is on the role of the police and what they do, the events in

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Manchester, then it starts to become damning. A member of the

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back benchs has waded in and described it as unacceptable and

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saying he'll tell Mr Mitchell to his face when he sees him. There is

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a lot of anger about this. surprising. Norman Tebbit said it

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was extraordinarily stupid and suggests he can't take the pressure

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of his new job. Is he in trouble over this in terms of his new

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position I don't detect that at the moment. These things have a life of

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their own, if you know. It will depend on whether or not an apology

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draws the sting from this and how complete the apology is. I notice

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today the Police Federation say it's a bit halfhearted, the apology

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that has been around already. There was a dispute about the facts of

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what was said, what wasn't actually said on the day itself, so those

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things are still to be cleared up, and - but I don't detect at this

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stage that he's really in any big trouble with his job. Of course,

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he's the Chief Whip, so he has a sort of perfect reason for fading

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into the background. He shouldn't really be a very public figure. You

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might think perhaps - I don't know - in the next few days, maybe he'll

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get the bus to work. Yes. I wonder if he'll listen to your advice.

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Do you think this is going to stick? I think it will stick

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because really it sort of says everything about what people think

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they think about the Conservative Party. I think it was very

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interesting that the one word he really took exception to was the

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word pleb. I mean, he said he didn't recognise the form of words,

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but if you read the alleged quotes they were fairly juicy, as Gary

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suggests. It's the word "pleb" which implies the sort of patrician

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Tory on his bicycled wanting the gates open for him, quite happy to

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hair angthe police force in the worst week to have done so.

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denies he said that word, but the fact that he had to deny that bit

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of it and it was disputed, what he did, what does it do in terms of

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image for David Cameron? He is always fighting accusations he and

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his accolades are toffs. And doing a lousy job of fighting. Here we

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have a posh boy, elite in the inner circle of the Cabinet - all of

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those feed directly into this problem that David Cameron has.

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This guy is a senior member of the inner circle, and here he is having

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stand-up row in public with the constabulary which happens to be a

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day after some pretty serious news about the police in Manchester, and

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here's a senior Cabinet member officer arguing - we know this word

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pleb is still up for debate but until Andrew Mitchell actually says

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this is what was said... Do you think he needs to come in front of

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the cameras? Absolutely, and I think this... Gary mentioned the

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police and how high profile they are bearing in mind incidents that

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have happened in Manchester. You may or may not remember the Mayor

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of London saying actually anyone swearing at the police should be

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arrested. Let's listen to his clip. In the same spirit of zero

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tolerance I reckon we need to get back to where we were before a law

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of 1988 and to make it clear that if people swear at the police, then

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they must expect to be arrested - not just -

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APPLAUSE Not just because it's wrong to

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expect it, in my view, to expect officers to endure profanities, but

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I happen to think it is, but it's about the experience of the

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culprits. If people feel that there are no comebacks and no boundaries

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and no retribution for the small stuff, then I'm afraid they'll go

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on to commit worse crimes. Mary Riddell, that'll come back to haunt

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them. It will come back to haunt them. Yes, again, more needling by

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Boris, albeit inadvertent in this case, but it is true, isn't it? In

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this country we have policing by consent. There has been a debate

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this week whether police should be around armed, so the deal is that

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the police obviously aren't armed - that they behave disrespectfully

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towards the public and vice versa. I think for a really senior member

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of Government to thwart that, to cross that fairly narrow and

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delicate line is a really sort of serious thing because as Boris is

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kind of suggesting or implying, if you've got some football hooligan

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who had had a couple of pints of lager and was rude to a policeman

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on the way - they would be just marched off to the cells before you

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could - before Norman Tebbit could say "on your bike", so the fact

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that all he's supposedly got to do is apologise... It's irrelevant

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he's a Tory. I have lost count of how many arguments I had over

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things like the riots when people were accused of saying all manner

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of terrible thinks to the police. That seemed fine from the left-wing

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perspective but because he's a Tory and on Twitter he was - people were

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using words like "posh boys", "Snobby Tories", "Typical Tories."

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What about the entrance? I have been in and out all the time.

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kind of character wants gates open to ride a push-bike out? It's all a

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matter of prestige because there is no detail involved. You just get

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off and push your bike. That's all he had to do. Maybe he won't be

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standing for an elected Police Commissioner.

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In just over a decade the number of people over the age of 85 in

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England is expected to double, and as the population ages, there's an

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urgent need to find more money to help pay for our care in old age.

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It's one of the most pressing long- term decisions facing the

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Government. But plans to solve the looming crisis are apparently being

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"blocked by the Treasury" - that's the view of the former Care

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Services Minister, the Liberal Democrat MP Paul Burstow. After

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losing his job in the recent reshuffle, he's written a strongly

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worded article in today's Daily Telegraph warning the Treasury not

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to duck the issue. He says, "The Treasury's view is simple - kick

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the can down the road despite our rising elderly population." He also

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has a message for David Cameron and Nick Clegg, saying he fears "the

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Coalition could be tempted to put care financing back in the 'too

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difficult to do' drawer." By 2026 the number of people aged over 85

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in England is expected to double to around 2.4 million. The average 65-

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year-old today faces lifetime care costs of �35,000, but these can

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vary wildly. A commission led by the economist Andrew Dilnot

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published its findings last year. It proposed a cap on individual

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care costs of �35,000, after which the state should pay. Ministers are

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considering a watered-down version which would impose a "voluntary

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cap" which would only protect those who paid a fee to opt in. But Paul

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Burstow says this idea is "dangerous".

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Well, earlier I spoke to Norman Lamb. He succeeded Paul Burstow as

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Care Minister and is also a Lib Dem MP. I asked him if he agreed that

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the plans to reform care funding were being blocked by the Treasury.

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Well, look, I'm a fortnight into the job, and so I can't give an

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assessment of the full position, but that's not the impression I get,

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and certainly as a new Care Minister, I am determined that we

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see this through. This is one of the areas of public policy which is

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long overdue for reform, and it's been sort of pushed into the long

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grass for far too long now, and you may remember before the last

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general election, I tried to get cross-party talks going to get a

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solution here, and I argued the case for a commission, so we've

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made a lot of progress. I think it's really good news that the

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Government has said that it supports in principle the idea of

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the cap. I was encouraged by what David Cameron said over the summer,

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so I think the next stage is to seek agreement on how we can fund

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it. I'm sorry to put this to you, but what progress has been made? I

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mean, there's no progress at all. Nothing has been agreed since

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Andrew Dilnot published his report and recommendations, and you do

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agree with Paul Burstow. You say it has been kicked into the long grass.

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He agrees with that. He says it's the fault of the Treasury. Do you?

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When you say no progress has been made, I just disagree with that.

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Tell me what's been agreeed? No cap has been agreed no. Money has been

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found to fund... But the model of care which is the critical starting

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point, has now been accepted in principle. That's an incredibly

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important starting point. Now we have to work out how it's funded.

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take your point that you've agreed in principle to a cap to give

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people some assurance about how their long-term care is paid for.

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Where should that cap be? In there is no agreement on that, you'll

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never have progress. Well, look, I haven't got a figure that I can

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give you today that is my sort of settled view because, of course,

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whenever you put the cap has implications for the cost of the

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whole programme, but it has to be at a level that gives people the

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reassurance that the assets that they've sort of - often worked for

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throughout their lives remain secure. If it's too high, it won't

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give that reassurance, and it won't also give an incentive to the

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inshurns industry to provide products to fill that gap. But what

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is affordable? Be honest with viewers. Is it true that there is

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no money to spend on this at the moment. That's why it hasn't been

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agreed. The former Health Secretary Andrew Lansley said in the current

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spending environment, the Government will have to consider

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the Andrew Dilnot recommendations carefully against other restraints

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and calls for resources. There is no money for this, is will? I take

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the view this is a priority. It's an unreformed system. There needs

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to be more than just Dilnot. The Government's bill we plan to take

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through next year will reform the whole social care system in a very

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positive way giving new rights to carers and those who are cared for,

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but the fact is that you have to reach judgments about when it is

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introduced, the level of the cap and, critically, how it's paid for.

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You can pay for it by cutting other things, or you can pay for it...

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you think it should be paid for by cutting other things if it's that

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much of a priority? In my view, it has to be paid for in a way that is

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progressive, that is based on your ability to pay. You have to try and

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be fair both in terms of people's capacity to pay but also in terms

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of inter-generational fairness. Could the working-age population

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actually stomach anymore burden in terms of tax, or should the burden

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apply in later years? These are the decisions that you have to discuss

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across the parties to reach agreement, and that's what I am

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intent on doing. One of the biggest areas of concern is dementia and

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how you deal with it and how you pay for it and the carers that are

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involved. What's your response to recent reports that big

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pharmaceuticals are decreasing their funding for dementia after

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several costly clinical trial failures? I think some of those

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reports may be misleading. We're planning major event next month

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with Government coming together with the pharmaceutical industry to

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look at working together, and in a sensuousing the UK's remarkable NHS

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system as a basis for undertaking the research that could lead to a

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breakthrough. The Government itself is doubling the amount of money

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that we're spending on research on dementia. It's part of the Prime

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Minister's dementia challenge. The message today for everyone is, if

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you know a loved one who you feel may be displaying early signs of

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dementia, have that difficult conversation. Talk to them and get

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them along to a GP, your GP, because early diagnosis can make a

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real difference. It can improve health and well being. Actually,

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also, it reduces the cost of care in the long run and avoids a crisis

:15:44.:15:47.

occurring. Norman Lamb, it's conference season, of course. That

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won't have passed you by. How is Nick Clegg going to deal with the

:15:51.:15:55.

leadership issue at the conference? Look, Nick is, as you might have

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noticed, actually, remarkably resilient. The pressure he has been

:16:01.:16:05.

under - some of the personal abuse he's faced during the last two-and-

:16:05.:16:10.

a-half years would have broken many a lesser person than Nick, but he

:16:10.:16:15.

keeps going because, actually, the bottom line is, we're doing the

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right thing working in the national interests, working with another

:16:18.:16:24.

party, and, you know, political stability at a time of real

:16:24.:16:28.

economic danger and turbulence is a priceless asset, and in time, I

:16:28.:16:33.

suspect that people might actually reach the view that Nick should be

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applauded for that. He has taken the very difficult decision to go

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into this coalition and to keep making it work. Still be here by

:16:41.:16:47.

2015? For that he should be recognised. Still be here by 2015?

:16:47.:16:52.

Absolutely. He has to say that. Let's go back to the initial report

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about care. Paul Burstow, in my experience, is not a man prone to

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angry outbursts. Do you believe what he says that the Treasury is

:17:01.:17:03.

blocking it? Absolutely. I think Paul Burstow is a well-regarded

:17:03.:17:06.

Minister in that job. The point he makes that the Treasury have kicked

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it into the long grass, that they actually won't stump up the money

:17:11.:17:14.

needed I think has been one of the best kept secrets in politics

:17:14.:17:18.

because everybody suspected that for a very, very long time. The

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thing is with the Dilnot proposals, which everybody - all the parties

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signed up to and welcomed, there is some tail-end cost involved. If you

:17:28.:17:32.

bring in a voluntary insurance scheme, and the idea of only

:17:32.:17:36.

providing help to people who have paid into that, obviously, would

:17:36.:17:40.

discriminate against the very poorest or - sorts of people. That

:17:40.:17:43.

wouldn't work. But it does mean that the state has to pick up some

:17:43.:17:47.

of the tab. And that's where the Treasury is thought to be drawing

:17:47.:17:50.

the line. As your report made really clear, this has been going

:17:50.:17:55.

on for years and years. We have had one commission and Sutherland.

:17:55.:18:01.

Everybody has looked at it. I think it's an overlooked word in politics

:18:01.:18:06.

but there is a cries was this elderly population as well as

:18:06.:18:16.
:18:16.:18:23.

people with dementia going up. This is as big as the NHS Bill in

:18:23.:18:27.

itself. One of the reasons he said about it being quietly tucked away

:18:28.:18:32.

and no one else is talking about it is probably true. I do not think it

:18:32.:18:37.

is because the Tories do not want to help people. That is about the

:18:37.:18:42.

image they had asked the Government. It is about the enormity of the

:18:42.:18:47.

project. This will be just as big and problematic and cause just as

:18:47.:18:54.

many problems. I take you do not think it will succeed? We will not

:18:54.:18:59.

see any figures being put down on paper until the end of this

:18:59.:19:05.

Parliament. I wonder if it might nudge them... It should be in the

:19:05.:19:10.

next Spending Review. It will be interesting to see what effect this

:19:10.:19:16.

intervention has. The magnitude is similar to the NHS. You cannot

:19:16.:19:21.

afford to do it and you cannot afford not to do it. The failure of

:19:21.:19:28.

social care has huge knock-on costs to the NHS. Lots of elderly people

:19:28.:19:31.

are in hospitals because there is nowhere else for them to go. It is

:19:31.:19:37.

a huge waste of public resources and getting worse all the time.

:19:37.:19:39.

are you thinking of putting a Trixie on the Police Commissioner

:19:39.:19:43.

elections? How about a flutter on an Ed Miliband victory - on the

:19:43.:19:46.

nose - or a pony on David Cameron? What about a Yankee on the American

:19:46.:19:50.

Senator elections? As long as you don't welch on a bet on House of

:19:50.:19:53.

Lords reform or boundary changes. Perhaps you are more of an ethical

:19:53.:19:56.

individual than my producer and you don't understand any of those

:19:56.:19:58.

gambling terms. In that case, here's Susana Mendonsa explaining

:19:58.:20:08.
:20:08.:20:15.

exactly how political betting has Look at the odds, check out the

:20:15.:20:22.

form, and choose which ones to back. Not horses. I am talking political

:20:22.:20:27.

beasts. We have been gambling our cash away it on them for centuries.

:20:28.:20:35.

People were betting on who would be the next Pope as far back as 1503.

:20:35.:20:40.

That was until Gregory the 14th banned all betting on Papal

:20:40.:20:46.

elections on pain of execution. It was the Tory leadership battle

:20:46.:20:49.

after Harold Macmillan resigned that gave us the political gambling

:20:49.:20:56.

back. And the arrival of the high street bookie. Betting shops became

:20:56.:21:01.

legal in 1961. That meant everyone could have bet. Before it was

:21:01.:21:07.

restricted to the wealthiest. we bet on all sorts. Like the arts

:21:07.:21:13.

that Eric Pickles would be spotted in a curry house during the Tory

:21:13.:21:18.

conference. -- the odds. He posted this picture on Twitter of which

:21:18.:21:24.

forced the bookies to pay up. Ken Clarke, falling asleep during the

:21:24.:21:33.

Budget, got odds of 16 to one. John Major becoming Prime Minister 93 to

:21:33.:21:38.

one. Screaming Lord Sutch backed himself to become Prime Minister at

:21:38.:21:42.

15 million to one. What about the prospects of David Cameron holding

:21:42.:21:52.
:21:52.:21:53.

on? Five to one. What about Ed Miliband? Five to four. You could

:21:53.:21:59.

do was put a tenner on yourself to become Prime Minister. Justin

:22:00.:22:05.

Tomlinson and Chris Kelly, the MP for Dudley South, where the two

:22:05.:22:10.

gentlemen who had those bets. They are on the first rung towards

:22:10.:22:18.

becoming Prime Minister. They have until 2038 to do it. At odds of

:22:18.:22:23.

50,000 to one, that will be half a million quid a piece. What you

:22:23.:22:30.

prefer? Courses of Paul -- politicians? Horses. Horses are

:22:30.:22:35.

prettier. I picked out ciders. I pick the colours and I would not

:22:35.:22:44.

pick blue. -- pick colours. When Tony and Cherie Blair were

:22:44.:22:48.

expecting an addition to the family, someone asked us what odds it would

:22:48.:22:54.

turn out to be an alien. personal favourite was whether

:22:54.:22:57.

Boris Johnson would set fire to his hair with the Olympic torch was up

:22:57.:23:03.

the odds were 66 to one. Alex Donohue from Ladbrooks is on the

:23:03.:23:07.

Green. He has got a few odds up his sleeve ahead of the Lib Dem, Labour

:23:07.:23:12.

and Tory conferences. What are the odds on the party leaders still

:23:12.:23:16.

being in their jobs at the time of the election? The great news is

:23:16.:23:20.

that they are all odds on to keep their jobs right until the next

:23:20.:23:27.

election. Nick Clegg has the shortest odds not to have his job.

:23:27.:23:33.

He is 5 to four. Those odds have shortened recently. If their

:23:33.:23:36.

leaders do believe in them, they're all odds on to keep their jobs

:23:36.:23:43.

until the next election. What about the favourite for the next Prime

:23:43.:23:51.

Minister? It has to be Ed Miliband. Boris Johnson is 12 to one. After

:23:51.:23:57.

the Olympics every mum wanted to back him to become an MP. Boris

:23:57.:24:02.

Johnson for Prime Minister, it could cost the bookies a few quid I

:24:02.:24:09.

imagine. Everyone will be watching that. If we look Boris Johnson

:24:09.:24:14.

angling for a comeback, is it likely? We think it could be quite

:24:14.:24:21.

likely. We are offering odds of two to one that he will be an MP in any

:24:21.:24:31.
:24:31.:24:32.

walk anywhere in the country before an election. -- any water. Quite

:24:32.:24:38.

short odds about Boris turning to politics, possibly at the highest

:24:38.:24:44.

level. Very tempting for a flutter. I can see the Miliband brothers.

:24:44.:24:49.

Perhaps they are patching up their differences. If you think they're

:24:49.:24:56.

going to have on stage at conference, 20 to one. We have seen

:24:56.:25:05.

it before. Will we see it again? 20 to one says they will. What about a

:25:05.:25:10.

comeback from Tony Blair or Gordon Brown? Of the two of them, if

:25:10.:25:17.

either of them, it is Tony Blair. Gordon Brown, you might as well

:25:17.:25:23.

name your price. 200 to one foot stuck I would probably want to

:25:23.:25:32.

stick another zero on that before I had a bet. -- one. What do that the

:25:32.:25:39.

odds on the Nick Clegg charity song Getting to number one -- what about

:25:39.:25:47.

the odds on the Nick Clegg charity song Getting to number one?

:25:48.:25:54.

promised we would vote against any rising these. It was made with the

:25:54.:25:59.

best of intentions. It is very catchy. The latest odds on that

:25:59.:26:03.

becoming number one, is that more were less likely than Nick Clegg

:26:03.:26:09.

stepping down as leader? The bigger odds are it gets to number one.

:26:09.:26:15.

Maybe they might become connected at some point. That could be the

:26:15.:26:20.

Christmas number one. I said that yesterday. I notice something

:26:20.:26:25.

mischievous on your board. What about a new job or career changed

:26:25.:26:34.

for Andrew Neil? 1000 to one for him to become Prime Minister.

:26:34.:26:44.
:26:44.:26:45.

you very much. Rick Nye from Populus is with us now. How bloody

:26:45.:26:49.

do you think the conference will be? I do not think it will be

:26:49.:26:53.

bloody but it will be quite sombre. Nick Clegg needs to impress upon

:26:53.:26:58.

his own party that they are making a difference by being part of the

:26:58.:27:01.

coalition. He needs to be able to show they have different from the

:27:02.:27:06.

Conservatives while, at the same time, showing that the coalition,

:27:06.:27:10.

as an entity, can actually work. The worst place for him to

:27:10.:27:14.

endeavour is being different from the Conservatives but in a way that

:27:14.:27:19.

makes the coalition useless. If that is the case, why would anyone

:27:19.:27:23.

vote for the Liberal Democrats? That means a vote for the coalition

:27:23.:27:29.

government in that case. What about the Nick Clegg song? The idea he

:27:29.:27:34.

could come out to say sorry at this stage... It some people were saying

:27:34.:27:40.

he might not have his heart in continuing as Lisa B on 23rd team.

:27:40.:27:48.

I do not think it is a bad thing. - - as the leader beyond 2013. It

:27:48.:27:56.

says to his party, look, we were responsible for coming up with this

:27:56.:28:00.

idiotic, unrealistic pledge in the first place and we are jointly

:28:00.:28:05.

responsible for the consequences of that. Getting rid of me will not

:28:05.:28:09.

solve that problem. Throwing it forward, if you think about the

:28:09.:28:12.

policies they will be voting on to enter the next manifesto, they must

:28:12.:28:17.

be realistic, otherwise the same thing will happen all over again if

:28:17.:28:21.

they are in coalition with Labour or the Tories after the next

:28:21.:28:26.

election. What to think that the chances of Nick Clegg as becoming

:28:26.:28:34.

leader? -- what do you think? will be loads of leadership talk.

:28:34.:28:40.

Maybe he should come in with a song at the next Tory conference. A lot

:28:40.:28:45.

of these things in politics are about perception. That has an

:28:45.:28:49.

unfortunate habit of becoming reality very quickly. He said sorry

:28:49.:28:54.

about the fees. The Labour Party never ever said sorry. They hardly

:28:54.:29:00.

said a word about that. As an anti- Clegg bandwagon, it suits. He will

:29:00.:29:06.

probably face, as we get into 2013/2014, some serious contention

:29:06.:29:12.

when it comes down to leadership. We have been trying to tread the

:29:12.:29:18.

fine line between differentiating - - differentiating between the

:29:18.:29:22.

Tories and being part of the coalition. Will he achieve that?

:29:22.:29:26.

will be very difficult for him. There is momentum the other way

:29:26.:29:31.

with Vince Cable and the social Democrat wing of the party moving

:29:31.:29:39.

maul over to the left. Somehow, it is absolutely right. -- more over.

:29:39.:29:43.

The Lib Dems need their unique selling point. They are not going

:29:43.:29:48.

to get the old voters they lost to Labour back. Their bluff has been

:29:48.:29:53.

called in all sorts of ways. That will be the trick for this

:29:53.:30:02.

conference. They are in a no-man's land. They have got huge chunks of

:30:02.:30:05.

their manifesto into government. It is almost as if none of that has

:30:05.:30:11.

happened. It is about one policy. It is essentially about the one

:30:12.:30:16.

policy. Picking up on what Mary said about coalition and Vince

:30:16.:30:21.

Cable and the idea of him being leader and some sort of combination

:30:21.:30:25.

with the Labour, interesting that Harriet Harman has not that on the

:30:25.:30:29.

head. Our Labour feeling more confident in winning an outright

:30:29.:30:34.

majority? It is difficult for the Labour Party to forgive parts of

:30:34.:30:37.

the Liberal Democrat Party and compete for the votes of their

:30:37.:30:42.

disaffected voters at the same time. Labour has to be tough. It is in a

:30:42.:30:46.

position where it has to be tough. The Liberal Democrats have a

:30:46.:30:49.

problem where, the people who do not mind the fact they went into

:30:49.:30:53.

coalition with the Conservatives, are not actually that keen on

:30:53.:30:56.

Liberal Democrat policies. The people who are attracted by Liberal

:30:56.:31:00.

Democrat policies will never forgive them by having gone into

:31:00.:31:04.

coalition with the Conservatives. The tuition fees figures are a

:31:04.:31:09.

metaphor as much as a policy issue. What about Ed Miliband? You say

:31:09.:31:13.

Labour can afford to feel confident at the moment but Ed Miliband is

:31:13.:31:17.

still less popular than David Cameron. At the moment it is going

:31:17.:31:21.

fine for Labour. There was a poll this week which put them 15 points

:31:21.:31:26.

ahead. That is the biggest gap this Parliament. They do not Theale, I

:31:26.:31:30.

think, as though the up doing anything. They are seeing things

:31:30.:31:36.

being done to the Conservatives and the Liberal Democrats. -- they are

:31:36.:31:43.

doing anything. It is about whether they use this conference to kick on.

:31:43.:31:46.

Begin to flesh out what a Labour government might look like and what

:31:46.:31:53.

Ed Miliband might do. Ed Miliband has made no policy announcements

:31:53.:32:03.
:32:03.:32:07.

I think it will be much more addressing the issue you raise, the

:32:07.:32:12.

image problem really and selling Ed Miliband a bit more if they can to

:32:12.:32:16.

the electorate, and there is no doubt he's improved in his public

:32:16.:32:20.

performances, but clearly, there's some ground to make up there. By

:32:20.:32:24.

the way, just going back to the Nick Clegg thing, I think this song

:32:24.:32:28.

will do misdemeanor a lot of good because it puts him into this

:32:28.:32:30.

wonderful area where he doesn't look like a politician anymore. He

:32:30.:32:35.

looks a bit off the wall. Is that because you're the leader of a

:32:35.:32:41.

political party... I think it's a turning point for Nick Clegg.

:32:41.:32:46.

get back to you on that. leadership of all the parties I

:32:46.:32:51.

suppose you could say won't be an issue for Ed Miliband. No, he's

:32:51.:32:55.

safe. If public I hadly he doesn't poll as good as David Cameron, what

:32:55.:32:59.

about for David Cameron, there is no real threat, is there, to his

:32:59.:33:02.

leadership? I don't think so I think people will make a lot about

:33:02.:33:05.

Boris Johnson. He'll have his slot at the party conference because

:33:05.:33:09.

there won't be much else to talk about. The media will want to talk

:33:09.:33:12.

lots about Boris Johnson, but yes, the mechanics don't work anyway in

:33:12.:33:16.

terms of how he gets back into Parliament and the circumstances

:33:16.:33:22.

under which he would stand. Second of all, I just don't know the Boris

:33:22.:33:25.

phenomenon is as potent outside of London or the media that tends to

:33:25.:33:28.

be based outside of London as people think it is. What sort of

:33:28.:33:34.

feel is it going to be then at the Conservative Party Conference?

:33:34.:33:36.

think at the Conservative Party Conference they're looking for

:33:36.:33:40.

David Cameron do lay out a vision, if you like. In a world where you

:33:40.:33:43.

can't tell people how long the journey is going to take in terms

:33:43.:33:48.

of getting to the other side of a recession and into recovery, what

:33:48.:33:52.

you can do is tell them what the destination will be like when they

:33:52.:33:57.

get there, and I think David Cameron has never really quite been

:33:57.:34:01.

able to draw that out and sell that to people. He needs to crystallise

:34:01.:34:05.

that but I think also going back to that kind of elitist image problem,

:34:06.:34:10.

they have a huge issue there. Unless they begin to address - the

:34:10.:34:13.

problem with somebody like Andy Coulson - say what you like about

:34:13.:34:17.

him, but there was almost a - somebody who was grounded in terms

:34:17.:34:20.

of advising the Prime Minister. I think that's what he's lacking at

:34:20.:34:24.

the moment. The problem he's got about this elitist image - the

:34:24.:34:28.

people advising him are from the same background. Of course all of

:34:28.:34:35.

his Big Society stuff and things with a wider appeal to a wider sort

:34:35.:34:38.

of tranche of the electorate have largely gone, so I think the

:34:38.:34:43.

stopper is going to be the economy. On the economy, I mean, what is the

:34:43.:34:47.

story they are going to tell? At the moment, it's still flat lining

:34:47.:34:51.

no, growth. We don't know what the next figures are going to be.

:34:51.:34:55.

They're possibly going to dump the debt target, possibly look at the

:34:55.:35:00.

deficit target. How damaging is that to the Osborne-Cameron brand?

:35:00.:35:05.

I think it's very damaging but at the moment there is a bit of an

:35:05.:35:08.

establishment consensus behind them that the Governor of the Bank of

:35:08.:35:10.

England, as you mentioned, has paved the way to dropping that very

:35:10.:35:16.

important fiscal rule, and is kind of suggesting that if that happened,

:35:16.:35:20.

it would be because of the economy and forces outside their control

:35:20.:35:23.

rather than anything that they've done wrong, whereas, of course,

:35:23.:35:30.

Labour will say, your plan A isn't working. What are you going to do

:35:30.:35:33.

next? That's the stasis we're still at. Weeks of fun to be had in the

:35:33.:35:35.

next month or so. Thank you very much.

:35:35.:35:43.

Now, should England have its own thinks, so and they're holding

:35:43.:35:44.

their annual conference in St Albans next week. They're the

:35:44.:35:51.

English Democrats. I am joined from College Green by their leader Robin

:35:51.:35:54.

Tilbrooke. Welcome. Thank you very much. What do you hope to achieve

:35:54.:35:57.

with your conference? Obviously, we're launching our mayoral

:35:57.:36:01.

candidates for the police commissioners. We're also starting

:36:01.:36:05.

to prepare for the next County Council elections, and we're

:36:05.:36:12.

launching an initiative to start progress towards having a great

:36:12.:36:17.

charter for England in readiness for the 800th anniversary of the

:36:17.:36:20.

Magna Carta. How successful do you really think you're going to be?

:36:20.:36:27.

Well, I think we are making some progress as a party. We're building

:36:27.:36:32.

up. In terms of numbers, in terms of organisation, in terms of where

:36:32.:36:36.

we're standing, in terms of - one of the all-important things about

:36:36.:36:41.

politics in this country, which is money, so we are make some progress.

:36:41.:36:46.

I'm quite upbeat about it. You're upbeat. You say on your website

:36:46.:36:50.

"For too long England has been shamelessly abused, compromised and

:36:50.:36:53.

pillaged by successive Westminster administrations" - quite forceful

:36:53.:36:57.

language. Given England is a pretty prosperous part of the union, what

:36:57.:37:02.

do you mean by that? Well, if you think about it, there are parts of

:37:02.:37:05.

England which are prosperous. There are plenty of parts of England that

:37:05.:37:10.

are not at all prosperous, and yet we have a system where the British

:37:10.:37:14.

political establishment through the Barnett formula give more money in

:37:14.:37:18.

subsidies to rich parts of Scotland than poor parts of England, and the

:37:18.:37:22.

same would be true of other parts of the United Kingdom. England

:37:22.:37:26.

isn't currently represented at all in the political process, and so we

:37:26.:37:31.

often get the raw end of the deal. You're seeing that with NHS cuts,

:37:31.:37:35.

for example. You have to admit that that characterisation, even if some

:37:35.:37:40.

people are sympathetic to it, given that the 101 candidates that you

:37:40.:37:44.

put up for election in the May local election, not a single one

:37:44.:37:48.

was elected, so they just don't see it the way you do. I think to be

:37:48.:37:52.

fair, it's early days for our party. We have only been going since 2002.

:37:52.:37:57.

We're - the fact that we were able to put up so many candidates is

:37:57.:38:01.

quite an achievement for a party of our age. Of course, you have to

:38:01.:38:05.

bear in mind that the establishment parties spent literally tens of

:38:05.:38:09.

millions on that election, whereas our budget was tiny. I mean, you

:38:09.:38:13.

know, outline how you would see an English Parliament working in

:38:13.:38:18.

practise. Well, I think the issue is that we need not only an English

:38:18.:38:23.

Parliament in terms of the representation function but we also

:38:23.:38:29.

need an English First Minister in Government in order to put us on a

:38:29.:38:32.

footing of any parity with England and Wales and Northern Ireland. We

:38:32.:38:38.

would also need an English Secretary of State within the

:38:38.:38:42.

Whitehall system. Otherwise, England is simply not going to be

:38:42.:38:45.

properly represented in the whole process of Government. That means

:38:45.:38:49.

we're simply not going to get the kind of resources spent on our

:38:49.:38:52.

interests that are spent on the other nations of the United Kingdom.

:38:52.:38:56.

Yes, and a lot of people will agree with you on that, and they'll

:38:56.:38:59.

sympathise, so is it that your message isn't getting across? Why

:38:59.:39:03.

isn't it getting across? Is it because it's obscured by some of

:39:03.:39:06.

the more extreme rhetoric that surrounds the party? No, I don't

:39:06.:39:11.

think, so and I don't think we are particularly extreme about what we

:39:11.:39:14.

say, but the fact of the matter is opinion polls are showing that

:39:14.:39:20.

people are getting our message. What we haven't yet achieved is

:39:20.:39:23.

that the - the brand awareness of our party is not at the level that

:39:23.:39:29.

we need it to be in order to start winning major elections. All right.

:39:29.:39:33.

Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Now, MPs have

:39:33.:39:36.

been on a break - another one - from Parliament since Tuesday to

:39:36.:39:40.

give them a chance to iron their shirts, polish their shoes and

:39:40.:39:43.

finish their speeches ahead of their party conference, but that

:39:43.:39:47.

doesn't mean it has been a quiet week at Westminster. No. Here is

:39:47.:39:52.

David Thompson with the week in 60 seconds.

:39:52.:39:59.

It was back to the future time this week - GCSEs out, old-style O-

:39:59.:40:02.

levels in as Education Secretary Michael Gove shook up exams for 14

:40:03.:40:06.

to 16-year-olds. We believe it is time to raise aspirations and

:40:06.:40:10.

restore rigour to our examinations. Labour MP Paul Flynn got thrown out

:40:10.:40:15.

of the Commons for using the L word that rhymes with "pants on fire." ".

:40:15.:40:20.

But I have to insist on retaining my accusation of lying. Not in

:40:20.:40:24.

their backyards. On Thursday, two London councils went all NIMBY on

:40:24.:40:28.

the Government scheme to let people extend their homes without planning

:40:28.:40:31.

permission and Lib Dem leader Nick Clegg proved sorry isn't the

:40:31.:40:34.

hardest work. We shouldn't have made a promise we weren't

:40:34.:40:38.

absolutely sure we could deliver. Only to find his apology over

:40:38.:40:47.

broken tuition fees promises given the auto tune treatment by internet

:40:47.:40:48.

pranksters. # I'm sorry

:40:48.:40:54.

# I'm so, so, sorry # There is no easy way to say I'm

:40:54.:40:59.

sorry # Do you get the feeling the Daily

:40:59.:41:02.

Politics likes that tune from Nick Clegg? Must be the third time we

:41:02.:41:08.

have played it at least. Let's look back at the week. Mary Riddell,

:41:08.:41:13.

GCSE s on their way out - back to the future with E-BACCs - do you

:41:13.:41:16.

think it will happen? I have a feeling it might, actually. I can't

:41:16.:41:21.

see that - obviously, it doesn't even start - the first wave of

:41:21.:41:25.

implementation - until 2015, but if there is a way - if head teachers

:41:25.:41:30.

like it, if parents like it and so on, then I think if a Labour

:41:30.:41:33.

Government did get in next time they'd probably have trouble

:41:33.:41:43.
:41:43.:41:44.

reversing it. You do think that? think there is a sort of mood

:41:44.:41:49.

that's going Michael Gove's way. I think there is a kind of view of

:41:49.:41:54.

academies and even free schools that isn't the same as it was at

:41:54.:41:58.

all last time... Andrew Adonis always said Labour should claim

:41:58.:42:02.

that as their policy. In fairness, it was. It was he and Tony Blair

:42:02.:42:08.

who brought it in. For this E-BACCs - just looking at the GCSE it seems

:42:08.:42:13.

to me is wrong. If you're doing a big reform, make it a root and

:42:13.:42:17.

branch one. The baccalaureate in France would go all the way through

:42:17.:42:20.

to the A-level stage and so on. Also, I think there is a problem

:42:21.:42:25.

with the kids who aren't passing five GCSEs at the moment. What's

:42:25.:42:30.

going to happen to them? What about the delay? Looking at it from a

:42:30.:42:34.

practical point of view, if it's not going to be brought in until

:42:34.:42:38.

2015 and Michael Gove has made it very clear he thinks GCSEs are

:42:38.:42:41.

discredited, why not bring it in straight away? It's one of the

:42:41.:42:45.

great mysteries of Government, isn't it? If they want to put up

:42:45.:42:48.

the price of petrol that happens the next day. They come in with a

:42:48.:42:52.

policy that makes a bit of sense, it comes in half a decade away. As

:42:52.:42:56.

Mary said, I think Labour and the Tories are actually closer than

:42:56.:42:59.

some would quite like to admit frankly on this. Also, if you said

:42:59.:43:05.

to most member of the public, "Do you want to make exams more

:43:05.:43:09.

rigorous with more integrity" - I think most people will endorse that

:43:09.:43:12.

there will be some people who will think it's harking back to the '50s,

:43:12.:43:17.

but I think secretly if you could educate our kids in a better, more

:43:17.:43:21.

thorough way, who is going to argue? What about planning? It was

:43:21.:43:27.

an interesting story this week about having had a huge hurrah over

:43:27.:43:31.

conservatories so people don't have to get permission, and Richmond has

:43:31.:43:35.

said no. It was something out of The Thick of It, really. Here we

:43:35.:43:38.

are in a coalition Government that thought they'd come out with

:43:38.:43:43.

something that looked to be generous that - I don't know if it

:43:43.:43:47.

was ever going to kick start the economy, but looked to be knocking

:43:47.:43:51.

on the right doors, Richmond have come along and said not in our

:43:51.:43:56.

backyard. And now there is two of them. It seemed to be such a hand-

:43:56.:44:01.

fisted thing for Tories to do. Of course, the people who are

:44:01.:44:07.

protesting are the people that - not in the nice, leafy suburbs who

:44:07.:44:12.

don't want a monstrosity going up in next door's garden. The

:44:12.:44:15.

Government aren't very Conservative when it comes to conserving things

:44:15.:44:20.

in the green belt and bits of England... I don't - I don't know

:44:20.:44:23.

if it's a U-turn, but it's again one of those policies that comes

:44:23.:44:28.

down to the presentation. I think Bob in Arbroath who might live on

:44:28.:44:31.

the 54th floor in a tower block won't be worried about whether or

:44:31.:44:37.

not they're going to put an extension... Mary said it's

:44:37.:44:43.

Conservative seats... Conservatives are going to worry if

:44:43.:44:53.
:44:53.:44:55.

there is a free fall. It's going to make such a tiny difference.S.

:44:55.:44:59.

the small stuff. Now they face double embarrassment of people not

:45:00.:45:04.

wanting to do it. They're knocked out, I think, if

:45:04.:45:07.

Richmond and this other one are doing so, then, yeah, it doesn't

:45:07.:45:10.

bode very well. We'll watch it, wait and see. Earlier this

:45:10.:45:16.

afternoon, the leader of UKIP gave the key-note speech at his party's

:45:16.:45:20.

conference in Birmingham. In a moment I'll speak to Mr Farage. But

:45:20.:45:30.
:45:30.:45:36.

first, here he is speaking about Having spent nearly 20 years of

:45:36.:45:43.

hard work, sacrifice, and much mockery building UKIP into a

:45:43.:45:46.

political brand in this country that is now connecting with

:45:46.:45:51.

millions of ordinary men and women out there, you have my insurance I

:45:51.:46:00.

am not going to sell this party short for any political gain. -- my

:46:00.:46:04.

assurance. There is no way on earth I will do that.

:46:04.:46:14.
:46:14.:46:17.

The only way we would consider the negotiation of any time -- kind at

:46:17.:46:25.

all, was if a promise were made to give this country a fall, free and

:46:25.:46:29.

fair recommend them - has never referendum to decide if we could be

:46:29.:46:34.

members of the European Union or not. -- a fair referendum. Welcome

:46:34.:46:39.

to the programme. You probably heard yourself a few seconds ago.

:46:39.:46:44.

You are considering it. If those conditions were met and there were

:46:44.:46:49.

that deal signed in blood to give a referendum, you would go for it.

:46:49.:46:54.

Let's be clear what is happening. The Euro-sceptics in the Tory Party

:46:54.:46:58.

are screaming at David Cameron same, Lib Dems will go off to Labour.

:46:58.:47:02.

UKIP are at 10% of the polls and you must do a deal with them. They

:47:02.:47:07.

are calling for a deal. I have said I will not do a deal that

:47:07.:47:15.

compromises the party for short- term political game. -- gain. I

:47:15.:47:19.

said we would be crazy not to considerate but we could not

:47:19.:47:22.

negotiate anything until it absolutely knew that this country

:47:22.:47:27.

was going to get the full, free and fair referendum on EU membership.

:47:27.:47:31.

What conversations are you having with members of the Tory Party

:47:31.:47:35.

along those sorts of lines? We're not having any conversations

:47:35.:47:39.

formerly with the Tory Party whatsoever. We're having lots of

:47:39.:47:43.

conversations with patriotic Euro- sceptics in the Conservative Party,

:47:43.:47:47.

at all levels, who are finding it difficult to survive under the

:47:47.:47:51.

leadership of David Cameron. Many of them hope and believe that David

:47:51.:47:56.

Cameron will do the right thing and will respond to this treaty the

:47:56.:48:03.

we're told we have to have. I would say, if David Cameron does not

:48:03.:48:07.

deliver on and in/out referendum, what you will see his many more are

:48:07.:48:13.

Euro-sceptics from the Conservative Party carrier Cross and joining

:48:13.:48:21.

UKIP. -- coming across. Is it partly the problem with your party

:48:22.:48:26.

bet you are characterised as the Euro-sceptic alternative to the

:48:26.:48:31.

Conservatives? -- that you are. That is unfair. People

:48:31.:48:35.

underestimate, particularly in the Midlands and the North, how many

:48:35.:48:40.

older votes that UKIP takes. It appeals to the left and right of

:48:40.:48:44.

the political spectrum. Looking at the opinion polls, the share of the

:48:44.:48:51.

vote in terms of intention to vote, has travelled in the last two years.

:48:51.:48:59.

They are beginning to connect with people. -- has trebled. That is

:48:59.:49:04.

about how Britain should be governed as well as who. On that

:49:04.:49:09.

basis, the deal makes perfect sense. If you can extract that pledge -

:49:09.:49:12.

whatever it would look like - and not sure what you would want them

:49:12.:49:16.

to do to keep to the cast-iron guarantee. You would get some seats

:49:16.:49:22.

at Westminster. That may well happen. My focus at the moment is

:49:22.:49:27.

on the police and crime Commission elections, the Corby by-election,

:49:27.:49:32.

the council elections next year. This party is upbeat. We are

:49:32.:49:37.

pushing forwards. The most likely way this country will get the right

:49:37.:49:45.

referendum is if you pit becomes stronger. I think people -- UKIP

:49:45.:49:54.

becomes stronger. We are not given a hope bite anyone in 1999 and

:49:54.:50:01.

three of us got elected. In 2009, we came second, beating the

:50:01.:50:10.

governing Labour Party of the day. The winners in 2009 was David

:50:10.:50:16.

Cameron. He has broken his pledge. We can all see that the European

:50:16.:50:26.

Union is turning into a state. I think we have every chance. What

:50:26.:50:31.

percentage of the vote are you aiming for? That is the key. What

:50:31.:50:38.

percentage IU aiming for in 2014? Up to win the Euro elections,

:50:38.:50:45.

probably 27% would win. -- to win. That is you hope. What are you

:50:45.:50:54.

going to say? This is not some pipe dream. We have been proved to be

:50:54.:50:58.

right on this European election. Write about the eurozone. Right at

:50:58.:51:04.

the cost of British Industry. We have been right. People know that.

:51:04.:51:10.

What about the logo? You might be in favour of dumping the �logo?

:51:10.:51:15.

That has been fantastic for our party. It showed people what we

:51:15.:51:20.

stood for and has served as incredibly well. Lots of voters

:51:20.:51:26.

under the age of 40 did not know there was a threat to the pound.

:51:26.:51:31.

Perhaps we should move to a forward looking symbol of. I make one

:51:31.:51:36.

promise. They are not going to do what the post of his stick with

:51:36.:51:41.

insignia and got rid of something that worked very well for rubbish.

:51:41.:51:48.

-- is stick with insignia. Her how big a threat is UKIP in terms of

:51:48.:51:53.

worrying the Conservatives? Quite a big threat. He is on a roll. You

:51:53.:51:59.

can understand why. There are an awful lot of malcontents, not any

:51:59.:52:04.

outside the Conservative Party, but within it, he would have every

:52:04.:52:11.

sympathy with that. The EU referendum is now common currency

:52:11.:52:16.

as the talking point - not only for the Conservatives - but also for

:52:16.:52:21.

the Labour Party. It might appear in both the main parties'

:52:21.:52:26.

manifestos. It is conceivable. I think Nigel Farage might do really

:52:26.:52:31.

well in the European elections. It is true that they translate their

:52:31.:52:36.

in 2009. Where I think he is mistaken is there is a deal to be

:52:36.:52:46.
:52:46.:52:51.

cut. -- they trounced Labour. There is plenty of gumption from within

:52:51.:52:58.

his own party. It is great publicity for Nigel Farage and UKIP,

:52:58.:53:00.

talk of Conservatives running scared and the rest of it. One

:53:01.:53:04.

could argue the most likely way of getting a referendum would be

:53:04.:53:09.

through the Conservatives and not UKIP. They're a bit like a bad

:53:09.:53:15.

reality show. You think it will never come back and they do every

:53:15.:53:18.

election. One of the last polls showed that UKIP were doing better

:53:18.:53:22.

than the Lib Dems. They are a dividing party when it comes to

:53:22.:53:26.

domestic politics. They have never had a Member of Parliament in

:53:26.:53:30.

Westminster. I do not think they ever will. They will dilute the

:53:30.:53:33.

Conservatives. They're looking for an absolute agreement from David

:53:34.:53:39.

Cameron to say we're having a referendum. There is more chance

:53:39.:53:44.

of... There is more chance of David Cameron getting in at the Met -- at

:53:44.:53:52.

the next election. As we get closer to 2015, there is a real risk of

:53:52.:53:58.

the Conservatives, if the Liberal Democrats have not built any more

:53:58.:54:01.

support and UKIP is into double figures, they need to look at the

:54:01.:54:06.

numbers and pink map what a a going to do at the next election if we

:54:06.:54:16.
:54:16.:54:20.

need to have a coalition? -- and think, what are we going to do?

:54:20.:54:24.

lot of people in the Conservative Party have been so uneasy about

:54:24.:54:28.

coalitions. How you hold the coalition together on one hand and,

:54:28.:54:33.

on the other hand, make yourself a coherent and electable Conservative

:54:33.:54:39.

government of future, is a very difficult trick. Let's ask the big

:54:39.:54:44.

question of the day. Up all politicians pants? Over to you,

:54:44.:54:51.

Adam. A what you get the political man who has everything? How about

:54:51.:54:55.

these political pants. They'll Y- fronts with politicians on them.

:54:55.:55:01.

You have Ann Widdecombe, captain and a ring, Nick Clegg, the Iron

:55:01.:55:07.

Lady and Boris Johnson, who is apparently the biggest seller. The

:55:07.:55:14.

people who make those save their website has crashed 14 times

:55:14.:55:20.

because so many people have been ordering them. This is Paul Hayes.

:55:20.:55:26.

If you have stashed them in your attic, will you get any cash?

:55:26.:55:31.

could be a good investment for the future. Boris Johnson might be the

:55:31.:55:37.

market leader now. The ones that people do not buy now will be the

:55:37.:55:43.

collectible as of the future. To get them signed will make them more

:55:43.:55:52.

collectible. -- collectibles. A lot of political memorabilia of,

:55:52.:55:57.

President Gorbachev and the Cold War. Beria's President Brezhnev.

:55:57.:56:05.

That is worth about �60. -- there is President Brezhnev. This is the

:56:05.:56:12.

2008 election of President Obama. This one is already very

:56:12.:56:18.

collectible. I have seen things from the moon landings. Deveney

:56:18.:56:26.

something to collect. -- definitely. A bottle of Gordon Brown beer. I

:56:26.:56:31.

remember this at the Tory Party conference in 2009. A It is amazing

:56:31.:56:38.

that it has not been drunk. -- it is amazing. People love to collect

:56:38.:56:44.

beer mats and bottles and all that kind of thing. It is a great

:56:44.:56:52.

collector book of the future. at this! A Labour Party diary.

:56:52.:56:58.

is the coalition government with Winston Churchill. You have got

:56:58.:57:01.

Lord Bevin and Clement Attlee in there. The nice thing about this

:57:01.:57:07.

one is it is amused and in great condition. It is a collector's item

:57:07.:57:13.

of the very important time. It is a bit empty. Wouldn't it be

:57:13.:57:17.

marvellous to say, we went to the Houses of Parliament today and

:57:17.:57:25.

talked about things? These up campaign badges. They date from

:57:25.:57:30.

Nixon and President Al Gore. I remember that period - the 1990s.

:57:30.:57:37.

People were a bit happier and had more cash. They cost about a tenner

:57:37.:57:43.

each. Do you want to buy some? have some Obama ones from the

:57:43.:57:47.

election. They are designed to be thrown away. They do not survive in

:57:47.:57:52.

large numbers and are very collectible. We have saved the best

:57:52.:57:58.

till last. That is prices, especially if it is full of tea. If

:57:58.:58:04.

you get all the team to sign it, I can take it away. That is way above

:58:04.:58:09.

my pay grade, decided if we're allowed to do that. How big is the

:58:09.:58:14.

market for political memorabilia? The 19th century seems to be where

:58:14.:58:20.

it is with Disraeli and Gladstone in this country. By the rarer items

:58:20.:58:28.

- items at a design to be thrown away. -- items that are designed.

:58:29.:58:34.

am off to Peckham market to see how much I can flog this for. Best of

:58:34.:58:39.

luck. I do not think it will buy you lunch. Thanks to our guests.

:58:39.:58:43.

You'll have to think about who you will like on your political pants.

:58:43.:58:49.

The 1 o'clock News is starting over on BBC One. Andrew will be back

:58:49.:58:54.

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