16/10/2012 Daily Politics


16/10/2012

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Good afternoon. Welcome to the Daily Politics. Computer hacker

:00:42.:00:45.

Gary McKinnon awaits his fate as the Home Secretary prepares to

:00:45.:00:49.

announce whether she will block his extradition to the US. We will

:00:49.:00:52.

bring you that decision. Her inflation is at its lowest

:00:52.:00:56.

level for almost three years, but with food and energy prices on the

:00:56.:01:00.

rise, how long will that last? Les but calls for a public inquiry

:01:01.:01:05.

into the allegations of sexual abuse by Jimmy Savile in a school,

:01:05.:01:13.

hospitals and at the BBC. To Guantanamo, US base on Cuba, the

:01:13.:01:17.

US sends reinforcement of Marines. And it is 50 years since the Cuban

:01:17.:01:25.

missile crisis. How close did we get to nuclear war?

:01:25.:01:30.

All that in the next hour. With us today is the Labour peer and

:01:30.:01:35.

broadcaster, Baroness Joan Bakewell. Let's start with that imminent

:01:35.:01:38.

decision on whether computer hacker Gary McKinnon should face charges

:01:38.:01:43.

in the United States of hacking into Pentagon computer systems. The

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Home Secretary, Theresa May, is due to make a statement in the Commons

:01:47.:01:50.

in the next half-hour. She has to decide whether to block the

:01:50.:01:54.

extradition on human rights grounds. He has been diagnosed with

:01:54.:01:57.

Asperger's Syndrome and medical reports say he would be a suicide

:01:57.:02:01.

risk if sent to the US, where he could face up to 60 years in jail.

:02:02.:02:05.

His is just one of a number of cases that have led to questions

:02:05.:02:10.

about whether the extradition treaty with the US it is fair. The

:02:10.:02:12.

former Liberal Democrat leader Ming Campbell has written a report on

:02:12.:02:17.

the treaty for the Liberal Democrats, and he joins us now. How

:02:17.:02:21.

significant is his decision today by Theresa May? Is it is very

:02:21.:02:25.

significant, not just in relation to Gary McKinnon, but in relation

:02:25.:02:29.

to the other elements of the whole issue of extradition. The Home

:02:29.:02:35.

Secretary has taken her time. There was the Baker report. She has taken

:02:35.:02:39.

some months to consider that. In addition to any decision about Gary

:02:39.:02:46.

McKinnon, there are two other issues am concerned about. Firstly,

:02:46.:02:50.

there is deciding whether British citizens should be prosecuted. At

:02:50.:02:55.

the moment, that is done by the Director of Public Prosecutions. I

:02:55.:02:57.

hope the Home Secretary will announce that that will now be done

:02:57.:03:01.

by a judge in an open court. The other thing refers to the differing

:03:02.:03:06.

standards of proof required. If you want to get an American citizen to

:03:06.:03:10.

Britain by extradition, you have to show a probable cause, whereas if

:03:10.:03:13.

you are doing the reverse and getting a British citizen to the

:03:13.:03:17.

United States, a reasonable suspicion is enough. It is an

:03:17.:03:20.

important distinction and I hope the Home Secretary deals with these

:03:20.:03:25.

matters. There is huge political pressure on her, because both David

:03:25.:03:29.

Cameron and Nick Clegg, before the general election, said Gary

:03:29.:03:34.

McKinnon should not be extradited to the US. One might presume that

:03:34.:03:38.

she will block the extradition? don't think you can presume

:03:38.:03:45.

anything. There is a variety of alternatives flowing about the

:03:45.:03:52.

House of Commons this morning. It does appear to be the case that two

:03:52.:03:55.

independent examiners, a psychiatrist and psychologist, have

:03:55.:04:00.

seen Mr MacKinnon recently and written a report, extracts of which

:04:00.:04:03.

have been produced which suggest that they would support, from a

:04:03.:04:08.

medical point of view, the contention that he should not be

:04:08.:04:11.

extradited on human rights grounds. But that does not bind the

:04:11.:04:15.

Secretary of State. She has to exercise her own discretion. It is

:04:15.:04:21.

there a risk of a precedent being set here? There has to be a law in

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these cases that applies to everyone equally. If she does block

:04:25.:04:30.

this extradition, then it could open the floodgates in terms of

:04:30.:04:35.

requests. You are right. If the decision is not to extradite Gary

:04:35.:04:40.

McKinnon, the Home Secretary would have to justify it by saying that

:04:40.:04:45.

there were special and particular circumstances in this case. It is

:04:45.:04:49.

in the interests of Great Britain and the United States that we have

:04:49.:04:54.

an effective extradition system. That system must be consistent with

:04:54.:04:59.

human rights, be legal and more fundamentally, it has to be a

:04:59.:05:03.

system in which the British public has confidence. That confidence has

:05:03.:05:10.

not been on display recently. We will hopefully hear from Theresa

:05:10.:05:16.

May within the next half-hour. Joan Bakewell, to some extent, this

:05:16.:05:21.

extradition treaty was used in order to allow a flow of terror

:05:21.:05:28.

suspects. Indeed, he came -- it came in after 9/11. There was a

:05:28.:05:32.

flood of concern and legislation to make it easier to pursue terrorists.

:05:32.:05:37.

Hacking into the pan Digan is of course a shocking crime -- hacking

:05:37.:05:42.

into the Pentagon. But the point Menzies makes is important, that

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the public at large field that Gary McKinnon should be given the

:05:47.:05:50.

benefit of the medical reports. The human rights issue about his

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Asperger's syndrome should weigh with the judgment. I agree with

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that. Although legislation has to be seen to be fair, it is easier

:06:02.:06:07.

for Americans -- for America to extradite people from here than it

:06:07.:06:11.

is for us to extradite from there. There were the NatWest three and so

:06:11.:06:21.
:06:21.:06:22.

on. We want fairness and compassion. But is there then a risk that

:06:22.:06:26.

medical grounds, or human rights legislation, could be used to keep

:06:26.:06:30.

people here who we don't necessarily want to keep, who

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should be extradited? Every case is a particular one. If people try and

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win the lead and say there is a medical case for this, it has to be

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recognised. People are skilled enough to know these things and

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whether they are genuine. Asperger's is a very elusive

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problem, so it would take experts to assess it. But it is not beyond

:06:58.:07:03.

the means of intelligent people. Now, as you may have heard, the

:07:03.:07:07.

rate of inflation has dropped to its lowest level for nearly three

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years. Relieved? Well, unfortunately, it is not as simple

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as the headline suggests. The rate of consumer price index inflation

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fell from 2.5% in August to 2.2% in September. Although the slowing

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pace in living costs will be a relief for many, those claiming the

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basic state pension or benefits are likely to see a smaller increase

:07:28.:07:32.

next April because the September inflation figures are used as the

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basis to calculate any rises. The downward trend is also likely to be

:07:36.:07:40.

coming to an end. The Office of National Statistics has warned that

:07:40.:07:44.

inflation is likely to rise in the coming months. A poor harvest has

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pushed up grain prices, which will increase the cost of food. The big

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energy companies, including British Gas, Npower and SSE, have recently

:07:53.:07:56.

increased energy prices, which is likely to have an upward impact on

:07:56.:08:01.

future figures. Some experts are warning that the increasing

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university tuition fees will also contribute to the end of a downward

:08:04.:08:12.

pattern in inflation. For many of us, the outlook seems less positive.

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Merryn Somerset Webb of money Week magazine joins me now. Presumably

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the first impression is that it is a good piece of news that inflation

:08:21.:08:26.

is on its way down? Absolutely, but if it is only temporary, it does

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not help as much. There are several things which will push inflation up

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over the coming months. Before this month is almost entirely due to

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rises in utility prices from last year coming out, and utility prices

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are about to go up again. That will come back in. The poor harvest will

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also affect things. So will tuition fees. What happens to inflation is

:08:51.:08:57.

also dependent on what happens to our currency. So this is really a

:08:57.:09:04.

blip, and actually, we will see rises coming in soon? Yes. And the

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problem with that is that the thing that matters about inflation is its

:09:08.:09:13.

impact on confidence. Over the last couple of years, inflation has

:09:13.:09:17.

consistently been higher than expected. Now they expect inflation

:09:17.:09:22.

to be volatile, which affects confidence and spending. That is a

:09:22.:09:27.

big deal for the economy. though it is good if you are in

:09:27.:09:30.

work and for households generally, what about for pensioners and those

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on benefits? The Chancellor mainly takes the September rises in

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account when he decides on benefits and payments to pensioners. Last

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year, inflation was high, so the rises were high. This year, it is

:09:47.:09:52.

lower, so it balances out. With us now is Conservative MP and member

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of the Treasury Select Committee Jesse Norman. Good news for a

:09:56.:10:01.

change? I think it is good news on two France, first at the cost falls

:10:01.:10:05.

in inflation are always welcome and the inflation rate has halved over

:10:05.:10:12.

the last two years. You ask, it has gone down from 5.2%. A tremendous

:10:12.:10:19.

win. The second reason it is good is because even when there is some

:10:19.:10:23.

re-rating to pensions, there is still a back place -- backstop

:10:23.:10:27.

which the government put in place to say it cannot be less than 2.5%.

:10:27.:10:34.

So even if there were an incentive to lower payments, it would still

:10:34.:10:39.

be 2.5%. But to to still difficult for pensioners. It is still

:10:39.:10:44.

difficult for pensioners, and I think it is a blip. With the shore

:10:44.:10:47.

of rises that are coming, particularly the rise in food

:10:47.:10:52.

prices, they will be seriously affected by the drought in America.

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Pensioners are not sanguine about things. They do affect things that

:10:58.:11:03.

affect their cost of living to rise. They will wait to see what happens.

:11:03.:11:07.

Isn't the problem that actually, the cost of living element, so when

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we talk about the food prices rising, energy bills and fuel costs,

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those are things households have to spend money on, and those other

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things the Government can do nothing about? The artisan embedded

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problem in general. Joan is right that pensioners could reasonably

:11:25.:11:30.

feel concerned. In my constituency, older people are very concerned

:11:30.:11:35.

about fuel and petrol prices and increases in food prices. We are in

:11:35.:11:39.

danger of seeing a hike in food prices after the bad harvest in

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Britain. And there has been a bad harvest in many other parts of the

:11:43.:11:47.

world. It could be stormy weather ahead. The but where will inflation

:11:48.:11:53.

go from here? We have heard it is probably going to go straight back

:11:53.:11:58.

up again, so it will be a short- lived benefit, if any benefit at

:11:58.:12:07.

all. We are in a time of extraordinarily difficult economic

:12:07.:12:17.
:12:17.:12:17.

trouble generally. That is not very comforting. Unfortunately, when you

:12:17.:12:22.

are in choppy seas, confidence is not what you expect. We will would

:12:22.:12:27.

not be out of them for a few years. A but from a consumer point of view,

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are we looking at years of continued squeeze in household

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expenditure and a squeeze on living standards? Wages have not risen in

:12:37.:12:41.

real terms over the past few years. The air is no doubt that we will

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continue to see a squeeze on living standards and household expenditure.

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One wishes it could be different. The economy works in cycles. It

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goes through periods of feast and famine. We missed a period of

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famine in the early 2000s because there was so much extra spending.

:13:00.:13:05.

We are now reaping the harvest of that, in a long term sustainable

:13:05.:13:10.

period of living standards. That is inevitable. It is not inevitable.

:13:10.:13:19.

The OBR and the IMF are beginning to say that austerity has gone too

:13:20.:13:24.

far. It is having repercussions on the economy which could be avoided.

:13:24.:13:30.

I do not think that is true. They have said one or two little things.

:13:30.:13:34.

I don't know if you are taking a political position on this, but if

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you are, you will recall that the IMF has been supportive of the

:13:39.:13:45.

Government for the previous two years. Now it is saying, how long

:13:45.:13:50.

can austerity go on for? They are right to raise the question, but

:13:50.:13:53.

the consensus of opinion is still on the government's side. By but

:13:53.:13:57.

they have also said the measure of the impact on the economy of

:13:57.:14:02.

austerity has been underestimated. They think this term, the fiscal

:14:02.:14:07.

multiplier, has been underestimated and that actually, every pound cut

:14:07.:14:11.

has a greater impact on the economy than George Osborne and the IMF

:14:11.:14:16.

first thought. I don't think that bears on the central economic

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judgment. In 2010 Comedy Central judgment was, wasn't the right

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thing to do to take control of the economic mess this country? It was

:14:28.:14:35.

clearly right. Even now, look at the alternatives. The alternatives

:14:35.:14:43.

are to allow borrowing costs... Borrowing is going up anyway.

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alternative is to allow our long- term borrowing costs to go up. That

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will clobber households even more. That is the inevitable counterpart

:14:54.:14:58.

of Joan's idea that we should go and spend. Spending will not work.

:14:58.:15:02.

People in a get hold do not spend the money they receive through tax

:15:02.:15:07.

cuts or government programmes, they keep it to pay off the debts.

:15:07.:15:16.

Spending can bring jobs. And it will give people who are unemployed

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the resources. When unemployed people get an income, they spend it

:15:20.:15:24.

all because they have such needs. You would have higher spending

:15:24.:15:29.

across a whole swathe of re- employed people. What share of GDP

:15:29.:15:37.

is consumed by the government at the moment? 42? For 49. The

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historical problem has been that we have gone from 38-40% for decades

:15:45.:15:50.

to the 49% now. To start to restrain the huge increase in state

:15:50.:15:55.

spending. It does not help people. It depresses growth and is a bad

:15:55.:16:05.
:16:05.:16:05.

What about now? George Osborne made that argument in 2010 and it was

:16:05.:16:10.

accepted by many people, in terms of reigning in public expenditure,

:16:10.:16:15.

but much of the, or many of the cuts have been to investment, have

:16:15.:16:21.

been to capital expenditure, do you this that has harmed the growth

:16:21.:16:27.

prospects of the economy? I think the Government needs to be training

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every sinew to increase capital expenditure. That is why some of

:16:31.:16:38.

the work I have been doing on reforming PFI is important. It

:16:38.:16:42.

feeds through into hieing less expensive expenditure. They haven't

:16:42.:16:47.

got the banks to lend on the scale it needs. It keeps launching

:16:47.:16:52.

different ideas to get the banks to lend to people who want, small

:16:52.:16:55.

businesses and so on, it isn't working to the extent that is

:16:55.:16:58.

necessary. Surely you recognise that. Can I bring it back, just to

:16:58.:17:02.

inflation and prices and how people are feeling. Politically, let us

:17:02.:17:07.

move away from the economics, how difficult is it going to be for

:17:07.:17:10.

your Government to get people to vote for them, when people are

:17:10.:17:14.

going to continue to feel this squeeze, which you have admitted is

:17:14.:17:19.

going to go on. T. It has been clear this will be a long-term

:17:19.:17:23.

process. T I think you will not see the current benefits during the

:17:23.:17:28.

life of this Parliament. I think there is actually, if we were

:17:28.:17:31.

honest, a kind of heroism in saying we are going to do something that

:17:31.:17:38.

we know is tough and difficult, even if we can say we won't reap

:17:38.:17:42.

the political benefits. Will people thank you for that, if you continue

:17:42.:17:45.

admitting you can't do anything about the energy prices, the fuel

:17:45.:17:52.

prices, into the future, and there is still no growth. A lot of things

:17:53.:17:58.

have been done to mitigate that. That is what they want do you look

:17:58.:18:01.

at. I agree with that. It is obviously right to bear down on

:18:01.:18:06.

that. The key question is if there is the beginnings of sustainable

:18:06.:18:10.

high quality, not just high, growth, coming through the end of the

:18:10.:18:13.

Parliament, I think they will realise the nay Sayers who said

:18:13.:18:23.

turn again half way through, will right be right. The BBC, a girls

:18:23.:18:26.

school and three NHS hospitals all implicated in the flood of

:18:26.:18:28.

allegations of sexual abuse committed by Jimmy Savile.

:18:28.:18:32.

Yesterday, questions were asked in the Commons about how the late DJ

:18:33.:18:38.

and TV presenter was able to conceal evidence of his behaviour

:18:38.:18:42.

over five decades and whether public institutions turned a blind

:18:42.:18:47.

eye. MPs wanted to know why a BBC Newsnight report being prepared in

:18:47.:18:54.

the aftermath of Savile's death was not broadcast. The BBC has launched

:18:54.:18:59.

three separate investigations, the first will look particularly at the

:18:59.:19:03.

allegations with regards to the item on Savile, which was

:19:03.:19:07.

inappropriately pulled from Newsnight. The second review to be

:19:07.:19:11.

undertaken when the police advice it is appropriate to do so, will

:19:11.:19:15.

focus on Jimmy Savile himself, and although the BBC's child protection

:19:15.:19:20.

policy was overhauled in 2000 2 the are view will focus on whether its

:19:20.:19:25.

policy is fit for purpose and what lessons can be learned. That will

:19:25.:19:27.

be assisted by an independent expert there San additional piece

:19:27.:19:31.

of work that will look at the troubling allegation of sexual

:19:31.:19:35.

harassment at the BBC that have come to light in recent weeks.

:19:35.:19:39.

Everyone has been sickened by the vile abuse perpetrated by Jimmy

:19:39.:19:42.

Savile, and it similar possible to overstate the suffering caused to

:19:42.:19:48.

those he abused. And what has deepened the revulsion is this

:19:48.:19:55.

happened at the BBC, an institution so loved and trusted it is known as

:19:55.:20:00.

"auntie". Does she agree that no- one should be complacent and

:20:00.:20:03.

believe sexual abuse by people in position of power happened then,

:20:04.:20:08.

but could not happen now? And that is why the BBC should proceed now

:20:08.:20:13.

to review all its policies and process on protection of children,

:20:13.:20:16.

sexual harassment and whistle- blowing to be sure the right

:20:16.:20:22.

policies and processes are in place, and they are properly enforced.

:20:22.:20:26.

I echo the remarks that the revelation of recent weeks raise

:20:26.:20:29.

serious questions, not just about the culture that existed in the BBC

:20:29.:20:32.

some years ago, and in other organisation, but about the way in

:20:32.:20:37.

which the BBC has handled this and in particular the very damaging

:20:37.:20:43.

suggestion that the Newsnight investigation was suppressed.

:20:43.:20:47.

may have heard the Culture Secretary Maria Miller saying the

:20:47.:20:51.

Newsnight investigation into Jimmy Savile had been "inappropriately

:20:51.:20:55.

dropped. "Her spokesperson said she had meant to say only that the BBC

:20:55.:20:59.

was investigating whether or not the investigation had been

:20:59.:21:03.

inappropriately dropped. Well, last night, Ed Miliband weighed inwhen

:21:03.:21:08.

he was questioned on the ITV show The Agenda. These are horrific

:21:08.:21:13.

allegation, now I think in order to do right by the victim, I don't

:21:13.:21:17.

think the BBC can load their own inquiry. I have thought about this

:21:17.:21:20.

as a statement in Parliament today. I think we need a broader look at

:21:21.:21:28.

these public institution, the BBC, I am afraid some parts of the NHS,

:21:28.:21:31.

potentially Broadmoor. I am open minded about how it is done but it

:21:31.:21:34.

has to be independent. I don't think you can have the BBC board. I

:21:34.:21:39.

am a great supporter of the BBC, I don't think you can have the BBC

:21:39.:21:43.

board leading its own inquiry. Miliband there. Rob Wilson is the

:21:43.:21:46.

MP who asked an urgent question on Jimmy Savile in the Commons

:21:46.:21:49.

yesterday. He joins us now. What do you want to find out? I have been

:21:50.:21:54.

asking for an independent inquiry now for over two week, and the BBC,

:21:54.:21:58.

bit by bit, dragging its feet is coming to the point where it is

:21:58.:22:01.

offering an independent inquiry. That is not the same thing that Ed

:22:01.:22:04.

Miliband is asking for, he is asking for a wider public inquiry.

:22:04.:22:08.

I think it is early and premature to be doing that. I think the BBC,

:22:08.:22:12.

if it does have an independent chairman, if it does have an

:22:12.:22:16.

independent panel, can deal with this at the moment. However, it

:22:16.:22:19.

also depends how much comes nowt the next few weeks and months,

:22:19.:22:23.

because I still think we aren't at the bottom of the barrel, in terms

:22:23.:22:26.

of things that will come out. say the BBC has been dragging its

:22:26.:22:31.

feet, but you have just said you would like to wait for the next

:22:31.:22:34.

weeks and months, wouldn't it be better to wait, because there is a

:22:34.:22:38.

sense, I mean listening to Maria Miller there, the Secretary of

:22:38.:22:42.

State, she miss spoke, but a feeling that people have made up

:22:42.:22:45.

their mind that somehow they are pre-judging some of the inquiries.

:22:45.:22:49.

For me with the BBC there are two separate issue, one is about the

:22:49.:22:51.

police and the criminal investigation, and that I think has

:22:51.:22:55.

to happen, the police are right to co-operate with it. The second is

:22:55.:22:59.

about the independent inquiry into the culture of the BBC. There is

:22:59.:23:03.

something, something went badly wrong within the culture of the BBC.

:23:03.:23:08.

We have had stor stories of turning a blind eye, fondling young women,

:23:08.:23:13.

I think that is what needs to be looked at. Why was there this

:23:13.:23:17.

culture that allowed people like Jimmy Savile to be sustained in

:23:17.:23:22.

that culture over such a long period of time. Was there a cull --

:23:22.:23:26.

culture of that? You are younger than I am and I remember it. It was

:23:26.:23:29.

the culture of the time. Older than I look. You were there at the time.

:23:30.:23:35.

Is that a fair, is that a fair allegation against the BBC

:23:35.:23:39.

specifically at that time? No, it was the culture of the Times and it

:23:39.:23:43.

is very hard to identify what that was, decades later, and honestly,

:23:43.:23:47.

how many more inquiries are we going to have? We will have one

:23:47.:23:51.

here, one there, everyone has an opinion suddenly about this, but

:23:51.:23:54.

the opinions that matter, the opinions of the women, who were

:23:54.:23:58.

molested were never listened to. Everyone goes on about where was

:23:58.:24:02.

the evidence, where was the evidence? The evidence was what the

:24:02.:24:06.

women were telling them, They weren't believed at the time.

:24:06.:24:12.

are allegations that the BBC internally suppressed many of those

:24:12.:24:17.

reports. What evidence is there of that? I have had reports from woman,

:24:17.:24:20.

I have spoken to the police about it. There are serious allegations

:24:20.:24:23.

out there and it is up to the police to look at those allegations,

:24:23.:24:28.

but also for this internal inquiry, to look at those allegations as

:24:28.:24:34.

well. Hang on... We were all padded, pinched stroked, the whole female

:24:34.:24:39.

sex was available, in those days, not willingly so in the '60s, it

:24:39.:24:43.

was how you treated women. There was a culture within the BBC of

:24:43.:24:48.

senior management targeting younger employees, female employees.

:24:48.:24:52.

you just talking about the BBC? Are we not talking as Joan is saying

:24:52.:24:56.

across the board in institution, you know, the NHS, potentially,

:24:56.:25:01.

other big institutions where this culture existed? I have asked for

:25:01.:25:03.

investigation to what happened at Stoke Mandeville to take place, I

:25:03.:25:08.

am not just targeting the BBC. I think the police have questioned to

:25:08.:25:10.

ask. The Crown Prosecution Service, children's homes, there are lots of

:25:10.:25:14.

different questions that need to be answered, but that doesn't mean

:25:14.:25:18.

that the BBC shouldn't answer its own questions. You don't have faith

:25:18.:25:22.

in the BBC inquiries themselves, the three inquirys that have been

:25:22.:25:26.

launched? If they sipt an independent chairman, with an

:25:26.:25:30.

independent panel, and they publish the right remit I will be happy for

:25:30.:25:34.

them to do the inquiry. That doesn't mean to say that will be

:25:34.:25:37.

enough ultimately. It depends what we find during that inquiry and

:25:37.:25:42.

whether the results, how the results are defined. That sound

:25:42.:25:46.

like a fishing exercise. To take the point about the culture, how

:25:46.:25:52.

easy would it be to hold an independent inquiry, into a culture

:25:52.:25:55.

decades ago? Well, clearly there will be people who have died if it

:25:55.:25:58.

is 40 years ago, but I think the BBC must have records of people

:25:58.:26:02.

that work there, people are coming forward all the time, there are

:26:02.:26:07.

senior management that is still alive, there are lots of people

:26:07.:26:10.

that can talk about the culture and we have seen in the newspaper, day

:26:10.:26:13.

after day after day, people coming forward and giving their own

:26:13.:26:17.

version of events. Now, somebody independent needs to look at those

:26:17.:26:21.

versions of events and see what the truth is. What matters was the

:26:21.:26:24.

evidence that the women gave at the time, when they were not listened

:26:24.:26:31.

to. That is what is at the core of this. Now, talking about decades

:26:31.:26:35.

past, is really very difficult, because if you remarked in those

:26:35.:26:41.

days, to someone who might be your superior in television, I worked in

:26:41.:26:46.

television in the 60ings, you would have a different reaction than

:26:46.:26:49.

today, there was no law about harassment, the feminist movement

:26:49.:26:56.

hadn't taken off. Women were regarded as perhaps not as reliable,

:26:56.:26:59.

so what you could expect from management, and I don't speculate

:26:59.:27:05.

about what they actually did say, but what you might expect was a "Oh

:27:05.:27:11.

well we have looked into it, we have had a word" some sort of

:27:11.:27:15.

remark would be consistent with the nature of discourse at the time

:27:15.:27:20.

about sexual predators. Bringing this up-to-date, that is not just

:27:20.:27:24.

something that goes back 40 years, I am afraid. It is up-to-date. We

:27:24.:27:27.

have the situation with regard to Newsnight and what happened there,

:27:27.:27:33.

there are lots of unanswered questions about that. What are the

:27:33.:27:37.

unanswered questions? There have been denials that any pressure was

:27:38.:27:44.

put on the editor of Newsnight to drop the investigation, relating to

:27:44.:27:47.

Jimmy Savile. And the editor himself has said that. You don't

:27:47.:27:53.

believe them? I think we need to understand clearly who knew what

:27:53.:27:58.

when. About what? The in terms of what the director general knew

:27:58.:28:01.

about Jimmy Savile, because he says he knew absolutely nothing about

:28:01.:28:06.

the terms of what the investigation was about, only they were about

:28:06.:28:09.

Jimmy Savile. The Newsnight investigation? And people within

:28:09.:28:13.

the BBC are suggesting that is, they are sceptical about that point

:28:13.:28:17.

in particular. He would not have known anything about what was going

:28:17.:28:20.

on with Jimmy Savile. In terms of the editorial reasons that were

:28:20.:28:24.

given by the editor of Newsnight who said, you know, there wasn't

:28:25.:28:29.

enough evidence to carry on, he made an editorial decision. There

:28:29.:28:33.

was an allegation that the investigation was changed half way

:28:33.:28:36.

through, to one where it was looking at these issues to do with

:28:36.:28:40.

the women and Jimmy Savile, to an investigation about what the CPS

:28:40.:28:44.

knew and what the weight of evidence was. Now, why was that

:28:44.:28:48.

changed? If it was changed. We need to find out. Programmes get made

:28:48.:28:53.

over a period of time and adjust all their findings, the more they

:28:53.:28:56.

discover and the more evidence they find, and the more they put

:28:56.:29:03.

together, what is going to be a fool-proof legally sound story. And

:29:03.:29:07.

you shift and find out more, a programme gets made by changing its

:29:07.:29:11.

mind all the time. So you are saying the BBC should have nothing

:29:11.:29:14.

to hide. It should publish the scripts and be open and transparent

:29:14.:29:20.

about what happened. I am happy for that to happen. The BBC asence

:29:20.:29:26.

truetion in crisis and has to have a inquiry, without question. Do you

:29:26.:29:29.

agree it should be independent? Are politicians getting to a stage

:29:29.:29:35.

where they are always calling for an independent inquiry. I think the

:29:35.:29:39.

BBC knees to have a BBC inquiry. Think they need to have an

:29:39.:29:42.

independent inquiry. This is their crisis, they need to deal with it

:29:42.:29:46.

and pay for it, but it will come from the license fee payer, because

:29:46.:29:51.

that is where all the BBC's money comes from. Is that well spent..

:29:51.:29:56.

Yes, if it clears up the BBC. don't think we have the problem

:29:56.:30:01.

today. You not read the papers Joan? I will have to end it on that

:30:01.:30:05.

note. Thank you. Two bits of good news for the Chancellor, it does

:30:05.:30:08.

happen, this morning inflation is down, as we have mentioned, and in

:30:08.:30:13.

the latest redrawing of constituency boundaries his

:30:13.:30:16.

parliamentary seat has been reinstate t. But it has not all

:30:16.:30:19.

gone his way over the last couple of year, in a moment we will talk

:30:20.:30:24.

to the author of a new biography of George Osborne but here he is

:30:24.:30:34.
:30:34.:30:37.

before the election in 2009, Of our country is facing the

:30:37.:30:45.

largest budget deficit in modern history. We will have no choice but

:30:45.:30:51.

to tackle it decisively if we are to stop interest rates going up and

:30:51.:30:58.

the unemployment that they bring. Yet at the same time, the next

:30:58.:31:02.

Conservative government is determined to leave public services

:31:02.:31:08.

and society stronger than it finds them. Put bluntly, Labour created

:31:08.:31:15.

this mess, and we Conservatives will have to sort it out.

:31:15.:31:22.

The author of a new biography of George Osborne is here now. Picking

:31:22.:31:26.

up on that bit of film, am I right in saying that George Osborne feels

:31:26.:31:30.

that that speech may have cost the Tories the election? A lot of

:31:30.:31:34.

people around him share the same view. Someone I spoke to estimated

:31:34.:31:38.

that perhaps 20 seeds were lost as a result of telegraphing the

:31:38.:31:42.

message of austerity ahead of an election. But George Osborne's view

:31:42.:31:46.

is that had he not warned the electorate of physical pain to come,

:31:46.:31:50.

it would have been impossible to implement austerity in government.

:31:50.:31:55.

It was an amazing revelation, though, to blame yourself in the

:31:55.:32:00.

speech for losing your party 20 seats. His is not amazing if you

:32:00.:32:04.

look at the other half of the calculation, which is that it would

:32:04.:32:07.

have been borderline impossible to govern, had he not sent the message

:32:07.:32:13.

beforehand. The Lib Dems paid a huge price for their admission --

:32:13.:32:17.

tuition fees U-turn because they had not warned the public about the

:32:17.:32:25.

policy. If you Telegraph a message before an election, and the public

:32:25.:32:27.

are sufficiently grown-up, they will tolerate that message in

:32:27.:32:31.

government. They will not accept a policy which is the opposite of

:32:31.:32:35.

something you said in opposition. The EU have obviously spent a lot

:32:35.:32:39.

of time with him and researching his background. What would you say

:32:40.:32:46.

are his core beliefs? I think it boils down to four things. One is

:32:46.:32:51.

fiscal conservatism. The ones we know less about our education

:32:52.:32:56.

reform. He is a fan of what Michael Gove is doing. Interventionism in

:32:56.:33:00.

foreign policy, which he is a big supporter off, and also cultural

:33:00.:33:05.

liberalism. If you look at his voting record on abortion or gay

:33:05.:33:09.

rights, he is as liberal as almost any member of the House of Commons.

:33:09.:33:16.

And looking at it as a person, what is your view of George Osborne?

:33:16.:33:20.

hope your book goes well, but I think it is a bit soon to start

:33:20.:33:24.

setting out exactly what he is about. I am speaking as someone who

:33:24.:33:31.

is not party to all the background. He strikes me as someone who does

:33:31.:33:36.

not have a strong image. He has a modest way of speaking. He is not a

:33:36.:33:42.

great deliverer of Budget speeches. He is shy of the public platform.

:33:42.:33:48.

So aren't you racing ahead a bit soon? He is Chancellor. The fact

:33:48.:33:51.

that he became Chancellor at that it does not erode the fact that he

:33:51.:33:54.

is Chancellor, the second most powerful person in the country. It

:33:54.:33:59.

would be strange, were then not interest in the book. When I

:33:59.:34:03.

embarked on the process 18 months ago, there were upwards of 10

:34:03.:34:07.

journalists in the lobby who were either in the process of planning a

:34:07.:34:11.

book or who had similar projects. hope people do want to know the

:34:11.:34:18.

truth about George Osborne. They do, because he is Chancellor. What of

:34:18.:34:22.

the other things that was seen as a game changer for him was in 2007,

:34:22.:34:30.

before he was Chancellor. This was his speech about inheritance tax.

:34:30.:34:35.

The next Conservative Government will raise the inheritance tax

:34:35.:34:41.

threshold to �1 million. That was strategically brilliant, some of

:34:41.:34:46.

his colleagues said at the time. August and September of 2007, there

:34:47.:34:52.

was a very good chance that Gordon Brown would call a snap election.

:34:52.:34:57.

Had he won it, it was possible that David Cameron would have lost his

:34:57.:35:00.

leadership of the Conservative Party. A confluence of events

:35:00.:35:05.

caused him to withdraw from that election. Of those, the most

:35:05.:35:09.

significant was that inheritance tax announcement. Having said that,

:35:09.:35:14.

I am not a huge fan of the policy. It was not far from what Labour

:35:14.:35:19.

presented it as, a tax giveaway to people who did not desperately need

:35:19.:35:23.

one. What did you think of the decision to cut the top rate of

:35:23.:35:28.

income tax? Politically, does George Osborne now think that was a

:35:28.:35:32.

mistake? Had he not cut the top rate of income tax, he thinks that

:35:32.:35:39.

people would be demanded by now. Not on the left, but people on the

:35:40.:35:44.

right and a large part of the centre would be thinking, are we

:35:44.:35:49.

repelling people who create wealth with that cut? I am a bigger fan of

:35:49.:35:53.

cutting income tax than cutting inheritance tax. We should be

:35:53.:35:56.

lowering taxes on earned income and increasing them on entrenched

:35:56.:36:06.
:36:06.:36:12.

wealth. But the Budget shambles, as it has been labelled, has caused

:36:12.:36:16.

popularity to go down consistently since that point. A mistake and

:36:16.:36:21.

badly delivered? Yes, it was the worst political event of his career.

:36:21.:36:31.

Have he been shaken by it? He has been shaken. But not stirred.

:36:31.:36:34.

not so discombobulated, given the level of criticism he has come

:36:34.:36:41.

under. The strongest characteristic he has is resilience and self-

:36:41.:36:50.

awareness. He knows he is disliked. You have to be a resilient, when

:36:50.:36:55.

you have such an unpopular image. He Brasher's a lot of that aside

:36:55.:36:59.

easily, maybe too easily. What about ambitions for prime minister?

:36:59.:37:03.

Are I don't think he is desperate for the job. Even when he was in a

:37:03.:37:06.

better position to get the job a couple of years ago, when he was

:37:06.:37:10.

more feted than he is now, we in the media exaggerated his interest

:37:10.:37:15.

in the job. We see Osborne and Cameron has parallels for Brown and

:37:15.:37:22.

Blair, and they are not. He is not as intensely ambitious as Gordon

:37:22.:37:27.

Brown was. So breaking news now. Theresa May, the Home Secretary, is

:37:27.:37:31.

blocking the extradition of Gary McKinnon, the computer hacker, to

:37:31.:37:34.

the United States. We will be bringing you much more on that. In

:37:34.:37:40.

the last few minutes, Theresa May, the Home Secretary, has made that

:37:40.:37:43.

decision, under a lot of political pressure, the block the extradition

:37:43.:37:45.

of Gary McKinnon. Now, what would it be like to go

:37:45.:37:50.

straight from university to being a full-time politician? One member of

:37:50.:37:53.

the Northern Ireland Assembly has recently done that. Sinn Fein's

:37:53.:37:58.

Megan Fearon, 21, is the youngest parliamentarian in the UK. Northern

:37:58.:38:02.

Ireland also has the youngest serving lord mayor, Gavin Grabban

:38:02.:38:07.

some of the DUP, who is leading Belfast City Council at the age of

:38:07.:38:10.

27. We spoke to them and asked what impact they are having on political

:38:10.:38:20.
:38:20.:38:23.

life in the province. Politics here has had a drink from

:38:23.:38:26.

the fountain of youth. The twentysomethings are not just

:38:26.:38:31.

getting involved, they are taking some top jobs. Just a few months

:38:31.:38:35.

ago, a student called Megan Fearon was sitting her finals here at

:38:35.:38:41.

Queen's University. Since then, she has gone from studying politics to

:38:41.:38:46.

being a fully fledged politician. Now she has swapped lectures for

:38:46.:38:49.

legislation and course work for committees. Not only is she the

:38:49.:38:54.

youngest member of the Northern Ireland Assembly, she is also the

:38:54.:38:58.

youngest parliamentarian in the UK. They is a link between school

:38:58.:39:04.

attendance and deprivation. At the age of 21, Megan Fearon was made

:39:04.:39:09.

MLA in June, just before her graduation. I thought about it long

:39:10.:39:13.

and hard, but if you want to make a difference, you have to lead by

:39:13.:39:19.

example. We definitely need more women and young people in politics.

:39:19.:39:23.

I felt I could not be an advocate for that and not attempt to break

:39:23.:39:29.

the glass ceiling myself when the opportunity arose. Good morning,

:39:29.:39:35.

everyone. Me to Gavin Robinson, the DUP's choice to lead Northern

:39:35.:39:39.

Ireland's biggest council. He is still three years of 30. The lord

:39:39.:39:43.

mayor thinks jobs don't get much better than his present one.

:39:43.:39:48.

try to do your bit to help people. It is a satisfying part of my life

:39:48.:39:53.

where you get to engage with people. Being actively involved in that,

:39:53.:39:59.

opening doors where you can, it is very rewarding. But would more

:39:59.:40:01.

senior people consider casting their vote for someone a lot

:40:01.:40:07.

younger? For a young man in their twenties, he does not have a lot of

:40:07.:40:13.

experience. There need fresh blood. If they have the experience, he

:40:13.:40:18.

could do it. Megan Fearon and Gavin Robinson think their voices are

:40:18.:40:23.

valuable. I don't think my life experience is less valid than

:40:23.:40:29.

anyone else's because it is shorter. Everyone has their lives, and the

:40:29.:40:33.

political body should represent that. We have a young population in

:40:33.:40:38.

an off. That should be put across in what we discuss and the issues

:40:38.:40:45.

we raised. I have worked professionally. I have an education

:40:45.:40:49.

as good as it is worth, but I have my own experience and my own

:40:49.:40:56.

reflections. I may only be 27. But I would like to think that my view

:40:56.:41:02.

is as important as that of someone else with 40 years of experience.

:41:02.:41:06.

The they are passionate about promoting young people's interests

:41:06.:41:13.

in the places of power, and a lifetime of political -- time in

:41:13.:41:16.

the political limelight may lie ahead.

:41:16.:41:21.

Palmer and's youngest MP, Pamela Nash, joins us. And the ever so

:41:21.:41:26.

youthful Joan Bakewell is still here. In the generations understand

:41:26.:41:30.

each other? Death and a cliff. It is interesting following that film

:41:31.:41:35.

to look at how many of our young politicians come from Northern

:41:35.:41:39.

Ireland and Scotland. A why is that? There are good run a ships

:41:39.:41:43.

between the generations in the small communities where these

:41:43.:41:47.

politicians come from. Young people are encouraged to speak their mind.

:41:47.:41:52.

Do you think that is true? In 0 and Ireland, they have been up against

:41:52.:41:59.

the realities of life. I think it has been a forcing ground. You are

:41:59.:42:02.

surrounded by the Troubles. You have had to think about the

:42:02.:42:07.

community from an early age. But nowadays, people say the extended

:42:07.:42:12.

family is not such a big part of family life. People move away, and

:42:12.:42:15.

that compact between older and younger generations does not exist

:42:15.:42:20.

to the same extent. I can see that that is the case, but it is

:42:20.:42:23.

wonderful that many of these MPs are not just young, they are women

:42:23.:42:27.

as well. I think the emergence of young people concerned about

:42:27.:42:31.

politics is really overdue. It is terrific that they are coming

:42:31.:42:34.

forward, because the older generations like me have been

:42:34.:42:40.

saying for a long time that we cared so passionately about nuclear

:42:40.:42:42.

disarmament and it all these ideologies of the time. Where are

:42:42.:42:47.

the youngsters who Philp passionate about politics? It is great to see

:42:47.:42:51.

them arriving. What are the passions for young people now? In

:42:51.:42:55.

those days, the ideological differences were clear and people

:42:55.:42:59.

were brought up in a field of protest and debate. It is the big

:42:59.:43:02.

issues that bring young people into politics. Young people are not

:43:03.:43:06.

always good at voting, but they are good at marching in the street and

:43:06.:43:10.

making their voice heard about the issues that matters to them.

:43:10.:43:15.

Unfortunately, a lot of those campaigns in recent years have been

:43:15.:43:20.

things that directly matter to them, about tuition fees and now the

:43:20.:43:25.

housing situation. Young people feel short-changed. Joan, is there

:43:25.:43:29.

a feeling among some of the older politicians at Westminster that

:43:29.:43:33.

people like Pamela might be wet behind the ears, that, to use

:43:33.:43:37.

Ronald Reagan's phrase, I am not going to exploit my opponent for

:43:37.:43:42.

his youth and ex -- inexperience, or are they more expecting --

:43:42.:43:47.

tolerating? It is different for different generations. Older people

:43:47.:43:51.

are not accepting of the young, they feel threatened by them. They

:43:51.:43:55.

feel that they do not know as much as we do. In some ways, they don't,

:43:55.:44:00.

but they are very much attuned to the generation that matters. It is

:44:00.:44:05.

interesting that the Arab Spring in all those countries across the

:44:05.:44:09.

Middle East is happening in countries where a high popular --

:44:09.:44:13.

high percentage of the population is under 30. It is important that

:44:13.:44:18.

young people do take a lead and understand that well. We do have an

:44:18.:44:21.

ageing population, but we don't want to isolate the Government with

:44:21.:44:25.

that ageing population. We want to see younger people coming along.

:44:25.:44:31.

Shoot some of the older politicians be pensioned off? I have to defend

:44:31.:44:34.

the more experienced politicians, because ever since I was elected

:44:34.:44:38.

two and a half years ago, there has been nothing but a warm welcome.

:44:38.:44:41.

Most of my colleagues feel that we do need younger people in

:44:41.:44:46.

Parliament to ensure that it is truly representative of society.

:44:46.:44:50.

And that means representatives from all age groups. But isn't there a

:44:50.:44:57.

bit of conflict? There is envy of the baby boomers, who have done so

:44:57.:45:04.

well financially. They have made a lot of money on their houses, they

:45:04.:45:08.

have had index-linked pensions, no tuition fees. There is a lot of

:45:08.:45:13.

anger that somehow, your generation has done better? Won the saddest

:45:13.:45:16.

things I hear as a politician is when a young person tells me on the

:45:16.:45:20.

doorstep that they do not vote because politicians do not listen.

:45:20.:45:25.

That is a reason to vote. If you look at austerity measures, they

:45:25.:45:28.

have hurt young people arguably more than any other group in

:45:28.:45:32.

society, and that is because young people are not using their vote

:45:32.:45:37.

enough, so politicians don't listen. Should pensioners lose their

:45:37.:45:43.

universal benefits? I do believe that. That envy is quite difficult

:45:43.:45:47.

for the younger generations to deal with. People say now it is much

:45:47.:45:52.

tougher to get onto the housing ladder. They are right about that.

:45:52.:45:57.

There are so many older people, and older people vote, so any

:45:58.:46:02.

government is likely to consider the interests of older people when

:46:02.:46:09.

it comes to electioneering. The things that young people care about,

:46:09.:46:15.

climate change, education, the cost of housing, they care about those

:46:15.:46:25.
:46:25.:46:26.

because it is hitting them hard. Is there a fear among old people of

:46:26.:46:30.

the young? People will remember those unfortunate pictures of the

:46:30.:46:34.

rioting that went on in London, you know, for whatever reason, and is

:46:34.:46:39.

that the sort of thing that affects older people in their views of the

:46:39.:46:44.

young? I I wish you wouldn't regard me as representative of all older

:46:44.:46:49.

people! I do think it is important that the old listen to the young. I

:46:49.:46:52.

went to the St Paul's occupy movement a couple of times, just to

:46:52.:46:55.

talk to people and just to meet people, they were very welcoming

:46:55.:46:59.

and they were very pleased to explain to me why they were there

:46:59.:47:03.

and what they hoped. Very often testify naive and in my judgment,

:47:03.:47:07.

they weren't as wise, as I thought I was. But the point was they

:47:07.:47:14.

wanted to talk, and they were concerned. And we mustn't neglect

:47:14.:47:19.

that. Pamela Nash, good luck. While we have been on air the Home

:47:19.:47:22.

Secretary Theresa May has announced her decision on whether the

:47:22.:47:25.

computer Hacker Gary McKinnon should be extradited to the United

:47:25.:47:32.

States. Mr McKinnon who has a sporm of autism is accused of hacking US

:47:32.:47:35.

Government computers. Since I came into office the sole issue on which

:47:35.:47:41.

I have been required to make a decision is whether gark's

:47:41.:47:45.

extradition to the US would breach his human rites, he is accused of

:47:45.:47:50.

serious crime, but there is also no doubt he seriously ill, he has

:47:50.:47:53.

Asperger's Syndrome and suffers from depressive illness. The legal

:47:54.:47:58.

question before me is now whether the extent of that illness is

:47:58.:48:04.

sufficient to preclude extradition. As the House would expect, I have

:48:04.:48:08.

carefully considered the representations made on his behalf.

:48:08.:48:12.

Including from a number ofically in addition, I have obtained my own

:48:12.:48:16.

medical advice from practitioners recommended to me, and I have taken

:48:16.:48:20.

extensive legal advice. After careful consideration, of all of

:48:20.:48:25.

the relevant material, I have concluded that Mr McKinnon's

:48:25.:48:30.

extradition would give rise to such a high risk of him ending his

:48:30.:48:34.

life... That a decision to extradite would be incompatible

:48:34.:48:39.

with his human rights. I have therefore withdrawn the extradition

:48:39.:48:47.

order against Mr McKinnon. It will now be for the Director of Public

:48:47.:48:51.

Prosecutions to decide whether he has a case to answer in a UK court.

:48:51.:48:54.

Theresa May. Let us get more on this with our political

:48:54.:48:58.

correspondent Carole Walker. She made that announcement to cheers in

:48:58.:49:02.

the House, so a popular decision there and clearly with gark's

:49:02.:49:07.

family. She acted on the medical advice that was given to her, it is

:49:07.:49:11.

a significant decision. It S I am sure one that will be greeted with

:49:11.:49:15.

a huge amount of relief by his family, and other campaigners who

:49:15.:49:19.

have argued for a long time that Gary McKinnon was a computer nerd,

:49:19.:49:26.

a geek who was looking for UFOs and was not trying to hack into

:49:26.:49:29.

sensitive material in the United States. The American authorities

:49:29.:49:34.

took a very different case, of course. They said that he had

:49:34.:49:37.

actually done damage to very sensitive files, and they very much

:49:37.:49:42.

wanted to put him on trial there in the United States. They had argued

:49:42.:49:47.

very strongly that because of his history of mental illness, and

:49:47.:49:51.

because of his Asperger's Syndrome, his state of mind, that there was a

:49:51.:49:55.

very strong likelihood that he would commit suicide if he was

:49:55.:49:59.

extradited, and Theresa May announced today that having looked

:49:59.:50:05.

at the medical advice, and also the expert legal opinion, in this case

:50:05.:50:10.

where she has a quasi-judicial role, she is acting in a separate legal

:50:10.:50:14.

capacity, she feels it is right to block the extradition, because she

:50:14.:50:18.

believed there was a high risk he could take his own life, and that

:50:18.:50:23.

is a fundamental breach of human rites. Now, that obviously is a

:50:23.:50:26.

specific case, but Theresa May has also been talking more broadly

:50:26.:50:30.

about the extradition system, about the treaty that was signed between

:50:30.:50:37.

the US and UK. What has she said about that? Several significant

:50:37.:50:40.

changes, the first thing she has introduced something called the

:50:40.:50:46.

forum bar, and what this means is when there is a case which involves

:50:46.:50:51.

a crime which perhaps covers UK soil, and foreign tertri, as in the

:50:51.:50:55.

case we have just been talking about, there will have to be a

:50:55.:50:59.

hearing in a British court, for a British court to decide if there is

:50:59.:51:03.

suitable ground for an extradition hearing to go ahead. So it will

:51:03.:51:09.

mean a British court will in the first instance decide whether that

:51:09.:51:12.

individual should be tried here in the UK. Now, Shetland went on the

:51:12.:51:17.

say she accepted -- she went on to say she accepted the findings of a

:51:17.:51:22.

review she has commissioned, there was no imbalance between Britain

:51:22.:51:27.

and the US, on this. But she also introduced another change, which

:51:27.:51:32.

means that in future where there are appeals, like the one we have

:51:32.:51:37.

been hearing about, where people say extra dit would harm their

:51:37.:51:41.

human rite, that would be decided by the high court not the Home

:51:41.:51:46.

Secretary. Thank you. Joan Bakewell you welcome this? I welcome it. She

:51:46.:51:51.

has done her image a good turn, she will be seen as having made a

:51:51.:51:54.

thoughtful an to some extent generous decision, so I think it

:51:54.:51:57.

will be welcomed. I am interested in the other changes that are

:51:57.:52:02.

coming about, and I think that will go on being debated and subject to

:52:02.:52:06.

scrutiny for some time. That is good too. All right. Well, it is

:52:06.:52:11.

nearly 50 year since the world teetered on the edge of the nuclear

:52:11.:52:14.

abyss. The Cuban Missile Crisis in October 1962 was the high water

:52:14.:52:20.

mark of ten stwhiens the USA and the Soviet Union. The point at

:52:20.:52:23.

which the Cold War almost became a hot war. In a moment we will talk

:52:24.:52:28.

to a historian about Britain's role at the time let us remind ourself

:52:28.:52:35.

of the event. To Guantanamo US base on Cuba, the Americans send strong

:52:35.:52:39.

reinforcement of marines. Meanwhile, the naval blockade against Russian

:52:39.:52:43.

and satellite ships nearing Cuba was put into effect. At the White

:52:43.:52:46.

House, making the announcement to the waiting world, Mr Kennedy said

:52:46.:52:54.

that only a few days before, he was assured that Russia has put no

:52:54.:52:57.

rockets on Cuba. Photographic proof to the contrary was soon in the

:52:57.:53:04.

President's hand. What kind of rock t? The moss kai Mayday parade had

:53:04.:53:10.

featured. So they were pointing at American cities. Powerful stuff,

:53:10.:53:14.

joining me is the historian Peter shen si who has written numerous

:53:14.:53:19.

books about Britain in the Cold War. It seems to me, that the world held

:53:19.:53:25.

its breath for those tense days during the escalation of events.

:53:25.:53:31.

They did. It's the chosest we have come to it happening, thermonuclear

:53:31.:53:34.

exchange, global war, but it was a closer run thing than we realised

:53:34.:53:38.

if the time. If Kennedy had known there were warhead already on Cuba,

:53:38.:53:42.

Russian one, and that the local Russian commander had the final say

:53:42.:53:47.

on whether they were launched on an invading American ary it would have

:53:47.:53:51.

made the calculations different. Ten years ago Russian submariner, I

:53:51.:53:56.

wasn't there, told a conference on Cuba they were stuck on their

:53:56.:54:00.

diesel submarine, with a nuclear torpedo on, the United States navy

:54:00.:54:04.

keeping them down. They can't clean their air, the temperature was

:54:04.:54:10.

rising, they could hardly breathe and the captain liezs it. He was

:54:11.:54:15.

overruled by his number two and the political officer, now if that

:54:15.:54:19.

nuclear torpedo had been launched that would have been it. It is

:54:19.:54:25.

amazing really, that it didn't happen. I mean. It was unbearable.

:54:25.:54:29.

What was it like at the time? thought the world would end. It was

:54:29.:54:35.

as close as close as you can be and not have nuclear war. We would go,

:54:35.:54:39.

we would leave work, in the evening and say, see you tomorrow, if we

:54:39.:54:43.

are still here, and people would go, yes, let's hope, let's hope, but

:54:43.:54:48.

people walked round expecting a flash in the sky, and the end of

:54:48.:54:53.

the world. I mean it was absolutely expected. Widely expected, and

:54:53.:54:57.

there was nothing to do but hold your breath. You could not do

:54:58.:55:04.

anything. You couldn't march. You couldn't protest. I went for a walk

:55:04.:55:08.

in the Black Mountain, we set off on the Sunday, October 27th

:55:08.:55:12.

thinking we might not come back tonight but what a place to go. We

:55:12.:55:22.

found Mr Khrushchev had stood down when we got back. I found a

:55:22.:55:26.

document that looked at war, and they said it could arise if one

:55:26.:55:30.

side or the other behaved in such a way it was intolerable to the other

:55:30.:55:33.

side and they hadn't realised it would be or if they involved a

:55:33.:55:37.

third party, with whom they were associated outside of the Soviet

:55:37.:55:45.

bloc. Then it says Cuba. So British intelligence... How did they know?

:55:45.:55:48.

They were looking at the general circumstances where it might get

:55:48.:55:54.

out of control. The stalemate was you couldn't lift a muscle. One

:55:54.:56:00.

side would think we will try it on, just try and get a bit of advantage,

:56:00.:56:03.

then it would unravel rapidly and British intelligence which is

:56:03.:56:07.

usually very criticised was spot on. They didn't say it was coming in

:56:07.:56:12.

October, because it didn't, but thaw foresaw the events that could

:56:12.:56:17.

produce it. What did they do in order to prepare for that outcome?

:56:17.:56:23.

Was there panic and preparation in Whitehall? There was a lady called

:56:23.:56:28.

Beryl who produced for many year, but she was known as the Queen of

:56:28.:56:33.

the war book. She would come in from south London, auntie Beryl as

:56:33.:56:36.

she was called. She Washington National Symphony Orchestra out the

:56:36.:56:43.

drills for the end of the world, the... What a role to have?

:56:43.:56:49.

every capital there would have been a Mrs Beryl. These are declassified

:56:49.:56:53.

now, these war tpwhie, are extraordinary, for our generation,

:56:53.:57:00.

Joan you go into those and you look over the abyss. Because Because the

:57:00.:57:04.

thought of another World War... sears your mind. You look, I have

:57:04.:57:08.

just come back from a visit to Hiroshima, there was a global with

:57:08.:57:12.

all the existing warheads, nuclear warheads on the planet, and there

:57:12.:57:16.

are thousands of them. And I just looked at that and thought they

:57:16.:57:22.

haven't been to Hiroshima. It just gives you pause, and makes you

:57:22.:57:26.

realise that nuclear disarmament must go on negotiations have to

:57:26.:57:31.

continue, because the world is bristling with it. It is more

:57:31.:57:35.

precarious now because of the proliferation, but the greatest

:57:35.:57:41.

shared Boon of our lifetime is that the Cold War ended the way it did,

:57:41.:57:45.

without general wa, it trumps everything else. A deal was done in

:57:45.:57:50.

the end. They wouldn't invade.... What happened... They wouldn't

:57:50.:57:56.

invade Cuba. And they would, if Mr Khrushchev removed the missiles

:57:56.:58:00.

they would remove the NATO missiles from Turkey, so there was a back

:58:00.:58:04.

channel in Washington. The doeld war ending is miraculous, it is

:58:04.:58:08.

breathtaking for me, the most I could hope for, when I was growing

:58:08.:58:15.

up, was an an American am bas for do to London called it the cheaper

:58:15.:58:20.

form of deadlock. It is nice we don't live under that shadow any

:58:20.:58:24.

more. It is not right to discount it and say we will pocket that bit

:58:24.:58:29.

I took the most extraordinary set of circumstances. A lot of simply

:58:29.:58:34.

good luck, because people were speaking of, we have no alternative

:58:34.:58:39.

to total destruction. OK. I will have to stop you there. The Berlin

:58:39.:58:43.

wall had no idea it was going to happen. Thanks to my guest,

:58:43.:58:48.

particularly to Joan Bakewell for being my guest of the day. The one

:58:48.:58:53.

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