16/10/2012 Daily Politics


16/10/2012

Jo Coburn is joined by Jesse Norman from the Treasury Select Committee to talk about inflation figures and Baroness Joan Bakewell to talk about young people in politics.


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Transcript


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Good afternoon. Welcome to the Daily Politics. Computer hacker

:00:42.:00:45.

Gary McKinnon awaits his fate as the Home Secretary prepares to

:00:45.:00:49.

announce whether she will block his extradition to the US. We will

:00:49.:00:52.

bring you that decision. Her inflation is at its lowest

:00:52.:00:56.

level for almost three years, but with food and energy prices on the

:00:56.:01:00.

rise, how long will that last? Les but calls for a public inquiry

:01:01.:01:05.

into the allegations of sexual abuse by Jimmy Savile in a school,

:01:05.:01:13.

hospitals and at the BBC. To Guantanamo, US base on Cuba, the

:01:13.:01:17.

US sends reinforcement of Marines. And it is 50 years since the Cuban

:01:17.:01:25.

missile crisis. How close did we get to nuclear war?

:01:25.:01:30.

All that in the next hour. With us today is the Labour peer and

:01:30.:01:35.

broadcaster, Baroness Joan Bakewell. Let's start with that imminent

:01:35.:01:38.

decision on whether computer hacker Gary McKinnon should face charges

:01:38.:01:43.

in the United States of hacking into Pentagon computer systems. The

:01:43.:01:47.

Home Secretary, Theresa May, is due to make a statement in the Commons

:01:47.:01:50.

in the next half-hour. She has to decide whether to block the

:01:50.:01:54.

extradition on human rights grounds. He has been diagnosed with

:01:54.:01:57.

Asperger's Syndrome and medical reports say he would be a suicide

:01:57.:02:01.

risk if sent to the US, where he could face up to 60 years in jail.

:02:02.:02:05.

His is just one of a number of cases that have led to questions

:02:05.:02:10.

about whether the extradition treaty with the US it is fair. The

:02:10.:02:12.

former Liberal Democrat leader Ming Campbell has written a report on

:02:12.:02:17.

the treaty for the Liberal Democrats, and he joins us now. How

:02:17.:02:21.

significant is his decision today by Theresa May? Is it is very

:02:21.:02:25.

significant, not just in relation to Gary McKinnon, but in relation

:02:25.:02:29.

to the other elements of the whole issue of extradition. The Home

:02:29.:02:35.

Secretary has taken her time. There was the Baker report. She has taken

:02:35.:02:39.

some months to consider that. In addition to any decision about Gary

:02:39.:02:46.

McKinnon, there are two other issues am concerned about. Firstly,

:02:46.:02:50.

there is deciding whether British citizens should be prosecuted. At

:02:50.:02:55.

the moment, that is done by the Director of Public Prosecutions. I

:02:55.:02:57.

hope the Home Secretary will announce that that will now be done

:02:57.:03:01.

by a judge in an open court. The other thing refers to the differing

:03:02.:03:06.

standards of proof required. If you want to get an American citizen to

:03:06.:03:10.

Britain by extradition, you have to show a probable cause, whereas if

:03:10.:03:13.

you are doing the reverse and getting a British citizen to the

:03:13.:03:17.

United States, a reasonable suspicion is enough. It is an

:03:17.:03:20.

important distinction and I hope the Home Secretary deals with these

:03:20.:03:25.

matters. There is huge political pressure on her, because both David

:03:25.:03:29.

Cameron and Nick Clegg, before the general election, said Gary

:03:29.:03:34.

McKinnon should not be extradited to the US. One might presume that

:03:34.:03:38.

she will block the extradition? don't think you can presume

:03:38.:03:45.

anything. There is a variety of alternatives flowing about the

:03:45.:03:52.

House of Commons this morning. It does appear to be the case that two

:03:52.:03:55.

independent examiners, a psychiatrist and psychologist, have

:03:55.:04:00.

seen Mr MacKinnon recently and written a report, extracts of which

:04:00.:04:03.

have been produced which suggest that they would support, from a

:04:03.:04:08.

medical point of view, the contention that he should not be

:04:08.:04:11.

extradited on human rights grounds. But that does not bind the

:04:11.:04:15.

Secretary of State. She has to exercise her own discretion. It is

:04:15.:04:21.

there a risk of a precedent being set here? There has to be a law in

:04:21.:04:25.

these cases that applies to everyone equally. If she does block

:04:25.:04:30.

this extradition, then it could open the floodgates in terms of

:04:30.:04:35.

requests. You are right. If the decision is not to extradite Gary

:04:35.:04:40.

McKinnon, the Home Secretary would have to justify it by saying that

:04:40.:04:45.

there were special and particular circumstances in this case. It is

:04:45.:04:49.

in the interests of Great Britain and the United States that we have

:04:49.:04:54.

an effective extradition system. That system must be consistent with

:04:54.:04:59.

human rights, be legal and more fundamentally, it has to be a

:04:59.:05:03.

system in which the British public has confidence. That confidence has

:05:03.:05:10.

not been on display recently. We will hopefully hear from Theresa

:05:10.:05:16.

May within the next half-hour. Joan Bakewell, to some extent, this

:05:16.:05:21.

extradition treaty was used in order to allow a flow of terror

:05:21.:05:28.

suspects. Indeed, he came -- it came in after 9/11. There was a

:05:28.:05:32.

flood of concern and legislation to make it easier to pursue terrorists.

:05:32.:05:37.

Hacking into the pan Digan is of course a shocking crime -- hacking

:05:37.:05:42.

into the Pentagon. But the point Menzies makes is important, that

:05:42.:05:47.

the public at large field that Gary McKinnon should be given the

:05:47.:05:50.

benefit of the medical reports. The human rights issue about his

:05:50.:05:56.

Asperger's syndrome should weigh with the judgment. I agree with

:05:56.:06:02.

that. Although legislation has to be seen to be fair, it is easier

:06:02.:06:07.

for Americans -- for America to extradite people from here than it

:06:07.:06:11.

is for us to extradite from there. There were the NatWest three and so

:06:11.:06:21.
:06:21.:06:22.

on. We want fairness and compassion. But is there then a risk that

:06:22.:06:26.

medical grounds, or human rights legislation, could be used to keep

:06:26.:06:30.

people here who we don't necessarily want to keep, who

:06:30.:06:36.

should be extradited? Every case is a particular one. If people try and

:06:36.:06:40.

win the lead and say there is a medical case for this, it has to be

:06:40.:06:43.

recognised. People are skilled enough to know these things and

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whether they are genuine. Asperger's is a very elusive

:06:52.:06:58.

problem, so it would take experts to assess it. But it is not beyond

:06:58.:07:03.

the means of intelligent people. Now, as you may have heard, the

:07:03.:07:07.

rate of inflation has dropped to its lowest level for nearly three

:07:07.:07:12.

years. Relieved? Well, unfortunately, it is not as simple

:07:12.:07:16.

as the headline suggests. The rate of consumer price index inflation

:07:16.:07:21.

fell from 2.5% in August to 2.2% in September. Although the slowing

:07:21.:07:24.

pace in living costs will be a relief for many, those claiming the

:07:24.:07:28.

basic state pension or benefits are likely to see a smaller increase

:07:28.:07:32.

next April because the September inflation figures are used as the

:07:32.:07:36.

basis to calculate any rises. The downward trend is also likely to be

:07:36.:07:40.

coming to an end. The Office of National Statistics has warned that

:07:40.:07:44.

inflation is likely to rise in the coming months. A poor harvest has

:07:44.:07:48.

pushed up grain prices, which will increase the cost of food. The big

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energy companies, including British Gas, Npower and SSE, have recently

:07:53.:07:56.

increased energy prices, which is likely to have an upward impact on

:07:56.:08:01.

future figures. Some experts are warning that the increasing

:08:01.:08:04.

university tuition fees will also contribute to the end of a downward

:08:04.:08:12.

pattern in inflation. For many of us, the outlook seems less positive.

:08:12.:08:16.

Merryn Somerset Webb of money Week magazine joins me now. Presumably

:08:16.:08:21.

the first impression is that it is a good piece of news that inflation

:08:21.:08:26.

is on its way down? Absolutely, but if it is only temporary, it does

:08:26.:08:30.

not help as much. There are several things which will push inflation up

:08:30.:08:36.

over the coming months. Before this month is almost entirely due to

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rises in utility prices from last year coming out, and utility prices

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are about to go up again. That will come back in. The poor harvest will

:08:47.:08:51.

also affect things. So will tuition fees. What happens to inflation is

:08:51.:08:57.

also dependent on what happens to our currency. So this is really a

:08:57.:09:04.

blip, and actually, we will see rises coming in soon? Yes. And the

:09:04.:09:08.

problem with that is that the thing that matters about inflation is its

:09:08.:09:13.

impact on confidence. Over the last couple of years, inflation has

:09:13.:09:17.

consistently been higher than expected. Now they expect inflation

:09:17.:09:22.

to be volatile, which affects confidence and spending. That is a

:09:22.:09:27.

big deal for the economy. though it is good if you are in

:09:27.:09:30.

work and for households generally, what about for pensioners and those

:09:30.:09:37.

on benefits? The Chancellor mainly takes the September rises in

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account when he decides on benefits and payments to pensioners. Last

:09:41.:09:46.

year, inflation was high, so the rises were high. This year, it is

:09:47.:09:52.

lower, so it balances out. With us now is Conservative MP and member

:09:52.:09:56.

of the Treasury Select Committee Jesse Norman. Good news for a

:09:56.:10:01.

change? I think it is good news on two France, first at the cost falls

:10:01.:10:05.

in inflation are always welcome and the inflation rate has halved over

:10:05.:10:12.

the last two years. You ask, it has gone down from 5.2%. A tremendous

:10:12.:10:19.

win. The second reason it is good is because even when there is some

:10:19.:10:23.

re-rating to pensions, there is still a back place -- backstop

:10:23.:10:27.

which the government put in place to say it cannot be less than 2.5%.

:10:27.:10:34.

So even if there were an incentive to lower payments, it would still

:10:34.:10:39.

be 2.5%. But to to still difficult for pensioners. It is still

:10:39.:10:44.

difficult for pensioners, and I think it is a blip. With the shore

:10:44.:10:47.

of rises that are coming, particularly the rise in food

:10:47.:10:52.

prices, they will be seriously affected by the drought in America.

:10:52.:10:58.

Pensioners are not sanguine about things. They do affect things that

:10:58.:11:03.

affect their cost of living to rise. They will wait to see what happens.

:11:03.:11:07.

Isn't the problem that actually, the cost of living element, so when

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we talk about the food prices rising, energy bills and fuel costs,

:11:12.:11:16.

those are things households have to spend money on, and those other

:11:16.:11:20.

things the Government can do nothing about? The artisan embedded

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problem in general. Joan is right that pensioners could reasonably

:11:25.:11:30.

feel concerned. In my constituency, older people are very concerned

:11:30.:11:35.

about fuel and petrol prices and increases in food prices. We are in

:11:35.:11:39.

danger of seeing a hike in food prices after the bad harvest in

:11:39.:11:43.

Britain. And there has been a bad harvest in many other parts of the

:11:43.:11:47.

world. It could be stormy weather ahead. The but where will inflation

:11:48.:11:53.

go from here? We have heard it is probably going to go straight back

:11:53.:11:58.

up again, so it will be a short- lived benefit, if any benefit at

:11:58.:12:07.

all. We are in a time of extraordinarily difficult economic

:12:07.:12:17.
:12:17.:12:17.

trouble generally. That is not very comforting. Unfortunately, when you

:12:17.:12:22.

are in choppy seas, confidence is not what you expect. We will would

:12:22.:12:27.

not be out of them for a few years. A but from a consumer point of view,

:12:27.:12:32.

are we looking at years of continued squeeze in household

:12:33.:12:37.

expenditure and a squeeze on living standards? Wages have not risen in

:12:37.:12:41.

real terms over the past few years. The air is no doubt that we will

:12:41.:12:46.

continue to see a squeeze on living standards and household expenditure.

:12:46.:12:52.

One wishes it could be different. The economy works in cycles. It

:12:52.:12:56.

goes through periods of feast and famine. We missed a period of

:12:56.:13:00.

famine in the early 2000s because there was so much extra spending.

:13:00.:13:05.

We are now reaping the harvest of that, in a long term sustainable

:13:05.:13:10.

period of living standards. That is inevitable. It is not inevitable.

:13:10.:13:19.

The OBR and the IMF are beginning to say that austerity has gone too

:13:20.:13:24.

far. It is having repercussions on the economy which could be avoided.

:13:24.:13:30.

I do not think that is true. They have said one or two little things.

:13:30.:13:34.

I don't know if you are taking a political position on this, but if

:13:34.:13:39.

you are, you will recall that the IMF has been supportive of the

:13:39.:13:45.

Government for the previous two years. Now it is saying, how long

:13:45.:13:50.

can austerity go on for? They are right to raise the question, but

:13:50.:13:53.

the consensus of opinion is still on the government's side. By but

:13:53.:13:57.

they have also said the measure of the impact on the economy of

:13:57.:14:02.

austerity has been underestimated. They think this term, the fiscal

:14:02.:14:07.

multiplier, has been underestimated and that actually, every pound cut

:14:07.:14:11.

has a greater impact on the economy than George Osborne and the IMF

:14:11.:14:16.

first thought. I don't think that bears on the central economic

:14:16.:14:23.

judgment. In 2010 Comedy Central judgment was, wasn't the right

:14:23.:14:28.

thing to do to take control of the economic mess this country? It was

:14:28.:14:35.

clearly right. Even now, look at the alternatives. The alternatives

:14:35.:14:43.

are to allow borrowing costs... Borrowing is going up anyway.

:14:43.:14:48.

alternative is to allow our long- term borrowing costs to go up. That

:14:48.:14:54.

will clobber households even more. That is the inevitable counterpart

:14:54.:14:58.

of Joan's idea that we should go and spend. Spending will not work.

:14:58.:15:02.

People in a get hold do not spend the money they receive through tax

:15:02.:15:07.

cuts or government programmes, they keep it to pay off the debts.

:15:07.:15:16.

Spending can bring jobs. And it will give people who are unemployed

:15:16.:15:19.

the resources. When unemployed people get an income, they spend it

:15:20.:15:24.

all because they have such needs. You would have higher spending

:15:24.:15:29.

across a whole swathe of re- employed people. What share of GDP

:15:29.:15:37.

is consumed by the government at the moment? 42? For 49. The

:15:37.:15:44.

historical problem has been that we have gone from 38-40% for decades

:15:45.:15:50.

to the 49% now. To start to restrain the huge increase in state

:15:50.:15:55.

spending. It does not help people. It depresses growth and is a bad

:15:55.:16:05.
:16:05.:16:05.

What about now? George Osborne made that argument in 2010 and it was

:16:05.:16:10.

accepted by many people, in terms of reigning in public expenditure,

:16:10.:16:15.

but much of the, or many of the cuts have been to investment, have

:16:15.:16:21.

been to capital expenditure, do you this that has harmed the growth

:16:21.:16:27.

prospects of the economy? I think the Government needs to be training

:16:27.:16:31.

every sinew to increase capital expenditure. That is why some of

:16:31.:16:38.

the work I have been doing on reforming PFI is important. It

:16:38.:16:42.

feeds through into hieing less expensive expenditure. They haven't

:16:42.:16:47.

got the banks to lend on the scale it needs. It keeps launching

:16:47.:16:52.

different ideas to get the banks to lend to people who want, small

:16:52.:16:55.

businesses and so on, it isn't working to the extent that is

:16:55.:16:58.

necessary. Surely you recognise that. Can I bring it back, just to

:16:58.:17:02.

inflation and prices and how people are feeling. Politically, let us

:17:02.:17:07.

move away from the economics, how difficult is it going to be for

:17:07.:17:10.

your Government to get people to vote for them, when people are

:17:10.:17:14.

going to continue to feel this squeeze, which you have admitted is

:17:14.:17:19.

going to go on. T. It has been clear this will be a long-term

:17:19.:17:23.

process. T I think you will not see the current benefits during the

:17:23.:17:28.

life of this Parliament. I think there is actually, if we were

:17:28.:17:31.

honest, a kind of heroism in saying we are going to do something that

:17:31.:17:38.

we know is tough and difficult, even if we can say we won't reap

:17:38.:17:42.

the political benefits. Will people thank you for that, if you continue

:17:42.:17:45.

admitting you can't do anything about the energy prices, the fuel

:17:45.:17:52.

prices, into the future, and there is still no growth. A lot of things

:17:53.:17:58.

have been done to mitigate that. That is what they want do you look

:17:58.:18:01.

at. I agree with that. It is obviously right to bear down on

:18:01.:18:06.

that. The key question is if there is the beginnings of sustainable

:18:06.:18:10.

high quality, not just high, growth, coming through the end of the

:18:10.:18:13.

Parliament, I think they will realise the nay Sayers who said

:18:13.:18:23.

turn again half way through, will right be right. The BBC, a girls

:18:23.:18:26.

school and three NHS hospitals all implicated in the flood of

:18:26.:18:28.

allegations of sexual abuse committed by Jimmy Savile.

:18:28.:18:32.

Yesterday, questions were asked in the Commons about how the late DJ

:18:33.:18:38.

and TV presenter was able to conceal evidence of his behaviour

:18:38.:18:42.

over five decades and whether public institutions turned a blind

:18:42.:18:47.

eye. MPs wanted to know why a BBC Newsnight report being prepared in

:18:47.:18:54.

the aftermath of Savile's death was not broadcast. The BBC has launched

:18:54.:18:59.

three separate investigations, the first will look particularly at the

:18:59.:19:03.

allegations with regards to the item on Savile, which was

:19:03.:19:07.

inappropriately pulled from Newsnight. The second review to be

:19:07.:19:11.

undertaken when the police advice it is appropriate to do so, will

:19:11.:19:15.

focus on Jimmy Savile himself, and although the BBC's child protection

:19:15.:19:20.

policy was overhauled in 2000 2 the are view will focus on whether its

:19:20.:19:25.

policy is fit for purpose and what lessons can be learned. That will

:19:25.:19:27.

be assisted by an independent expert there San additional piece

:19:27.:19:31.

of work that will look at the troubling allegation of sexual

:19:31.:19:35.

harassment at the BBC that have come to light in recent weeks.

:19:35.:19:39.

Everyone has been sickened by the vile abuse perpetrated by Jimmy

:19:39.:19:42.

Savile, and it similar possible to overstate the suffering caused to

:19:42.:19:48.

those he abused. And what has deepened the revulsion is this

:19:48.:19:55.

happened at the BBC, an institution so loved and trusted it is known as

:19:55.:20:00.

"auntie". Does she agree that no- one should be complacent and

:20:00.:20:03.

believe sexual abuse by people in position of power happened then,

:20:04.:20:08.

but could not happen now? And that is why the BBC should proceed now

:20:08.:20:13.

to review all its policies and process on protection of children,

:20:13.:20:16.

sexual harassment and whistle- blowing to be sure the right

:20:16.:20:22.

policies and processes are in place, and they are properly enforced.

:20:22.:20:26.

I echo the remarks that the revelation of recent weeks raise

:20:26.:20:29.

serious questions, not just about the culture that existed in the BBC

:20:29.:20:32.

some years ago, and in other organisation, but about the way in

:20:32.:20:37.

which the BBC has handled this and in particular the very damaging

:20:37.:20:43.

suggestion that the Newsnight investigation was suppressed.

:20:43.:20:47.

may have heard the Culture Secretary Maria Miller saying the

:20:47.:20:51.

Newsnight investigation into Jimmy Savile had been "inappropriately

:20:51.:20:55.

dropped. "Her spokesperson said she had meant to say only that the BBC

:20:55.:20:59.

was investigating whether or not the investigation had been

:20:59.:21:03.

inappropriately dropped. Well, last night, Ed Miliband weighed inwhen

:21:03.:21:08.

he was questioned on the ITV show The Agenda. These are horrific

:21:08.:21:13.

allegation, now I think in order to do right by the victim, I don't

:21:13.:21:17.

think the BBC can load their own inquiry. I have thought about this

:21:17.:21:20.

as a statement in Parliament today. I think we need a broader look at

:21:21.:21:28.

these public institution, the BBC, I am afraid some parts of the NHS,

:21:28.:21:31.

potentially Broadmoor. I am open minded about how it is done but it

:21:31.:21:34.

has to be independent. I don't think you can have the BBC board. I

:21:34.:21:39.

am a great supporter of the BBC, I don't think you can have the BBC

:21:39.:21:43.

board leading its own inquiry. Miliband there. Rob Wilson is the

:21:43.:21:46.

MP who asked an urgent question on Jimmy Savile in the Commons

:21:46.:21:49.

yesterday. He joins us now. What do you want to find out? I have been

:21:50.:21:54.

asking for an independent inquiry now for over two week, and the BBC,

:21:54.:21:58.

bit by bit, dragging its feet is coming to the point where it is

:21:58.:22:01.

offering an independent inquiry. That is not the same thing that Ed

:22:01.:22:04.

Miliband is asking for, he is asking for a wider public inquiry.

:22:04.:22:08.

I think it is early and premature to be doing that. I think the BBC,

:22:08.:22:12.

if it does have an independent chairman, if it does have an

:22:12.:22:16.

independent panel, can deal with this at the moment. However, it

:22:16.:22:19.

also depends how much comes nowt the next few weeks and months,

:22:19.:22:23.

because I still think we aren't at the bottom of the barrel, in terms

:22:23.:22:26.

of things that will come out. say the BBC has been dragging its

:22:26.:22:31.

feet, but you have just said you would like to wait for the next

:22:31.:22:34.

weeks and months, wouldn't it be better to wait, because there is a

:22:34.:22:38.

sense, I mean listening to Maria Miller there, the Secretary of

:22:38.:22:42.

State, she miss spoke, but a feeling that people have made up

:22:42.:22:45.

their mind that somehow they are pre-judging some of the inquiries.

:22:45.:22:49.

For me with the BBC there are two separate issue, one is about the

:22:49.:22:51.

police and the criminal investigation, and that I think has

:22:51.:22:55.

to happen, the police are right to co-operate with it. The second is

:22:55.:22:59.

about the independent inquiry into the culture of the BBC. There is

:22:59.:23:03.

something, something went badly wrong within the culture of the BBC.

:23:03.:23:08.

We have had stor stories of turning a blind eye, fondling young women,

:23:08.:23:13.

I think that is what needs to be looked at. Why was there this

:23:13.:23:17.

culture that allowed people like Jimmy Savile to be sustained in

:23:17.:23:22.

that culture over such a long period of time. Was there a cull --

:23:22.:23:26.

culture of that? You are younger than I am and I remember it. It was

:23:26.:23:29.

the culture of the time. Older than I look. You were there at the time.

:23:30.:23:35.

Is that a fair, is that a fair allegation against the BBC

:23:35.:23:39.

specifically at that time? No, it was the culture of the Times and it

:23:39.:23:43.

is very hard to identify what that was, decades later, and honestly,

:23:43.:23:47.

how many more inquiries are we going to have? We will have one

:23:47.:23:51.

here, one there, everyone has an opinion suddenly about this, but

:23:51.:23:54.

the opinions that matter, the opinions of the women, who were

:23:54.:23:58.

molested were never listened to. Everyone goes on about where was

:23:58.:24:02.

the evidence, where was the evidence? The evidence was what the

:24:02.:24:06.

women were telling them, They weren't believed at the time.

:24:06.:24:12.

are allegations that the BBC internally suppressed many of those

:24:12.:24:17.

reports. What evidence is there of that? I have had reports from woman,

:24:17.:24:20.

I have spoken to the police about it. There are serious allegations

:24:20.:24:23.

out there and it is up to the police to look at those allegations,

:24:23.:24:28.

but also for this internal inquiry, to look at those allegations as

:24:28.:24:34.

well. Hang on... We were all padded, pinched stroked, the whole female

:24:34.:24:39.

sex was available, in those days, not willingly so in the '60s, it

:24:39.:24:43.

was how you treated women. There was a culture within the BBC of

:24:43.:24:48.

senior management targeting younger employees, female employees.

:24:48.:24:52.

you just talking about the BBC? Are we not talking as Joan is saying

:24:52.:24:56.

across the board in institution, you know, the NHS, potentially,

:24:56.:25:01.

other big institutions where this culture existed? I have asked for

:25:01.:25:03.

investigation to what happened at Stoke Mandeville to take place, I

:25:03.:25:08.

am not just targeting the BBC. I think the police have questioned to

:25:08.:25:10.

ask. The Crown Prosecution Service, children's homes, there are lots of

:25:10.:25:14.

different questions that need to be answered, but that doesn't mean

:25:14.:25:18.

that the BBC shouldn't answer its own questions. You don't have faith

:25:18.:25:22.

in the BBC inquiries themselves, the three inquirys that have been

:25:22.:25:26.

launched? If they sipt an independent chairman, with an

:25:26.:25:30.

independent panel, and they publish the right remit I will be happy for

:25:30.:25:34.

them to do the inquiry. That doesn't mean to say that will be

:25:34.:25:37.

enough ultimately. It depends what we find during that inquiry and

:25:37.:25:42.

whether the results, how the results are defined. That sound

:25:42.:25:46.

like a fishing exercise. To take the point about the culture, how

:25:46.:25:52.

easy would it be to hold an independent inquiry, into a culture

:25:52.:25:55.

decades ago? Well, clearly there will be people who have died if it

:25:55.:25:58.

is 40 years ago, but I think the BBC must have records of people

:25:58.:26:02.

that work there, people are coming forward all the time, there are

:26:02.:26:07.

senior management that is still alive, there are lots of people

:26:07.:26:10.

that can talk about the culture and we have seen in the newspaper, day

:26:10.:26:13.

after day after day, people coming forward and giving their own

:26:13.:26:17.

version of events. Now, somebody independent needs to look at those

:26:17.:26:21.

versions of events and see what the truth is. What matters was the

:26:21.:26:24.

evidence that the women gave at the time, when they were not listened

:26:24.:26:31.

to. That is what is at the core of this. Now, talking about decades

:26:31.:26:35.

past, is really very difficult, because if you remarked in those

:26:35.:26:41.

days, to someone who might be your superior in television, I worked in

:26:41.:26:46.

television in the 60ings, you would have a different reaction than

:26:46.:26:49.

today, there was no law about harassment, the feminist movement

:26:49.:26:56.

hadn't taken off. Women were regarded as perhaps not as reliable,

:26:56.:26:59.

so what you could expect from management, and I don't speculate

:26:59.:27:05.

about what they actually did say, but what you might expect was a "Oh

:27:05.:27:11.

well we have looked into it, we have had a word" some sort of

:27:11.:27:15.

remark would be consistent with the nature of discourse at the time

:27:15.:27:20.

about sexual predators. Bringing this up-to-date, that is not just

:27:20.:27:24.

something that goes back 40 years, I am afraid. It is up-to-date. We

:27:24.:27:27.

have the situation with regard to Newsnight and what happened there,

:27:27.:27:33.

there are lots of unanswered questions about that. What are the

:27:33.:27:37.

unanswered questions? There have been denials that any pressure was

:27:38.:27:44.

put on the editor of Newsnight to drop the investigation, relating to

:27:44.:27:47.

Jimmy Savile. And the editor himself has said that. You don't

:27:47.:27:53.

believe them? I think we need to understand clearly who knew what

:27:53.:27:58.

when. About what? The in terms of what the director general knew

:27:58.:28:01.

about Jimmy Savile, because he says he knew absolutely nothing about

:28:01.:28:06.

the terms of what the investigation was about, only they were about

:28:06.:28:09.

Jimmy Savile. The Newsnight investigation? And people within

:28:09.:28:13.

the BBC are suggesting that is, they are sceptical about that point

:28:13.:28:17.

in particular. He would not have known anything about what was going

:28:17.:28:20.

on with Jimmy Savile. In terms of the editorial reasons that were

:28:20.:28:24.

given by the editor of Newsnight who said, you know, there wasn't

:28:25.:28:29.

enough evidence to carry on, he made an editorial decision. There

:28:29.:28:33.

was an allegation that the investigation was changed half way

:28:33.:28:36.

through, to one where it was looking at these issues to do with

:28:36.:28:40.

the women and Jimmy Savile, to an investigation about what the CPS

:28:40.:28:44.

knew and what the weight of evidence was. Now, why was that

:28:44.:28:48.

changed? If it was changed. We need to find out. Programmes get made

:28:48.:28:53.

over a period of time and adjust all their findings, the more they

:28:53.:28:56.

discover and the more evidence they find, and the more they put

:28:56.:29:03.

together, what is going to be a fool-proof legally sound story. And

:29:03.:29:07.

you shift and find out more, a programme gets made by changing its

:29:07.:29:11.

mind all the time. So you are saying the BBC should have nothing

:29:11.:29:14.

to hide. It should publish the scripts and be open and transparent

:29:14.:29:20.

about what happened. I am happy for that to happen. The BBC asence

:29:20.:29:26.

truetion in crisis and has to have a inquiry, without question. Do you

:29:26.:29:29.

agree it should be independent? Are politicians getting to a stage

:29:29.:29:35.

where they are always calling for an independent inquiry. I think the

:29:35.:29:39.

BBC knees to have a BBC inquiry. Think they need to have an

:29:39.:29:42.

independent inquiry. This is their crisis, they need to deal with it

:29:42.:29:46.

and pay for it, but it will come from the license fee payer, because

:29:46.:29:51.

that is where all the BBC's money comes from. Is that well spent..

:29:51.:29:56.

Yes, if it clears up the BBC. don't think we have the problem

:29:56.:30:01.

today. You not read the papers Joan? I will have to end it on that

:30:01.:30:05.

note. Thank you. Two bits of good news for the Chancellor, it does

:30:05.:30:08.

happen, this morning inflation is down, as we have mentioned, and in

:30:08.:30:13.

the latest redrawing of constituency boundaries his

:30:13.:30:16.

parliamentary seat has been reinstate t. But it has not all

:30:16.:30:19.

gone his way over the last couple of year, in a moment we will talk

:30:20.:30:24.

to the author of a new biography of George Osborne but here he is

:30:24.:30:34.
:30:34.:30:37.

before the election in 2009, Of our country is facing the

:30:37.:30:45.

largest budget deficit in modern history. We will have no choice but

:30:45.:30:51.

to tackle it decisively if we are to stop interest rates going up and

:30:51.:30:58.

the unemployment that they bring. Yet at the same time, the next

:30:58.:31:02.

Conservative government is determined to leave public services

:31:02.:31:08.

and society stronger than it finds them. Put bluntly, Labour created

:31:08.:31:15.

this mess, and we Conservatives will have to sort it out.

:31:15.:31:22.

The author of a new biography of George Osborne is here now. Picking

:31:22.:31:26.

up on that bit of film, am I right in saying that George Osborne feels

:31:26.:31:30.

that that speech may have cost the Tories the election? A lot of

:31:30.:31:34.

people around him share the same view. Someone I spoke to estimated

:31:34.:31:38.

that perhaps 20 seeds were lost as a result of telegraphing the

:31:38.:31:42.

message of austerity ahead of an election. But George Osborne's view

:31:42.:31:46.

is that had he not warned the electorate of physical pain to come,

:31:46.:31:50.

it would have been impossible to implement austerity in government.

:31:50.:31:55.

It was an amazing revelation, though, to blame yourself in the

:31:55.:32:00.

speech for losing your party 20 seats. His is not amazing if you

:32:00.:32:04.

look at the other half of the calculation, which is that it would

:32:04.:32:07.

have been borderline impossible to govern, had he not sent the message

:32:07.:32:13.

beforehand. The Lib Dems paid a huge price for their admission --

:32:13.:32:17.

tuition fees U-turn because they had not warned the public about the

:32:17.:32:25.

policy. If you Telegraph a message before an election, and the public

:32:25.:32:27.

are sufficiently grown-up, they will tolerate that message in

:32:27.:32:31.

government. They will not accept a policy which is the opposite of

:32:31.:32:35.

something you said in opposition. The EU have obviously spent a lot

:32:35.:32:39.

of time with him and researching his background. What would you say

:32:40.:32:46.

are his core beliefs? I think it boils down to four things. One is

:32:46.:32:51.

fiscal conservatism. The ones we know less about our education

:32:52.:32:56.

reform. He is a fan of what Michael Gove is doing. Interventionism in

:32:56.:33:00.

foreign policy, which he is a big supporter off, and also cultural

:33:00.:33:05.

liberalism. If you look at his voting record on abortion or gay

:33:05.:33:09.

rights, he is as liberal as almost any member of the House of Commons.

:33:09.:33:16.

And looking at it as a person, what is your view of George Osborne?

:33:16.:33:20.

hope your book goes well, but I think it is a bit soon to start

:33:20.:33:24.

setting out exactly what he is about. I am speaking as someone who

:33:24.:33:31.

is not party to all the background. He strikes me as someone who does

:33:31.:33:36.

not have a strong image. He has a modest way of speaking. He is not a

:33:36.:33:42.

great deliverer of Budget speeches. He is shy of the public platform.

:33:42.:33:48.

So aren't you racing ahead a bit soon? He is Chancellor. The fact

:33:48.:33:51.

that he became Chancellor at that it does not erode the fact that he

:33:51.:33:54.

is Chancellor, the second most powerful person in the country. It

:33:54.:33:59.

would be strange, were then not interest in the book. When I

:33:59.:34:03.

embarked on the process 18 months ago, there were upwards of 10

:34:03.:34:07.

journalists in the lobby who were either in the process of planning a

:34:07.:34:11.

book or who had similar projects. hope people do want to know the

:34:11.:34:18.

truth about George Osborne. They do, because he is Chancellor. What of

:34:18.:34:22.

the other things that was seen as a game changer for him was in 2007,

:34:22.:34:30.

before he was Chancellor. This was his speech about inheritance tax.

:34:30.:34:35.

The next Conservative Government will raise the inheritance tax

:34:35.:34:41.

threshold to �1 million. That was strategically brilliant, some of

:34:41.:34:46.

his colleagues said at the time. August and September of 2007, there

:34:47.:34:52.

was a very good chance that Gordon Brown would call a snap election.

:34:52.:34:57.

Had he won it, it was possible that David Cameron would have lost his

:34:57.:35:00.

leadership of the Conservative Party. A confluence of events

:35:00.:35:05.

caused him to withdraw from that election. Of those, the most

:35:05.:35:09.

significant was that inheritance tax announcement. Having said that,

:35:09.:35:14.

I am not a huge fan of the policy. It was not far from what Labour

:35:14.:35:19.

presented it as, a tax giveaway to people who did not desperately need

:35:19.:35:23.

one. What did you think of the decision to cut the top rate of

:35:23.:35:28.

income tax? Politically, does George Osborne now think that was a

:35:28.:35:32.

mistake? Had he not cut the top rate of income tax, he thinks that

:35:32.:35:39.

people would be demanded by now. Not on the left, but people on the

:35:40.:35:44.

right and a large part of the centre would be thinking, are we

:35:44.:35:49.

repelling people who create wealth with that cut? I am a bigger fan of

:35:49.:35:53.

cutting income tax than cutting inheritance tax. We should be

:35:53.:35:56.

lowering taxes on earned income and increasing them on entrenched

:35:56.:36:06.
:36:06.:36:12.

wealth. But the Budget shambles, as it has been labelled, has caused

:36:12.:36:16.

popularity to go down consistently since that point. A mistake and

:36:16.:36:21.

badly delivered? Yes, it was the worst political event of his career.

:36:21.:36:31.

Have he been shaken by it? He has been shaken. But not stirred.

:36:31.:36:34.

not so discombobulated, given the level of criticism he has come

:36:34.:36:41.

under. The strongest characteristic he has is resilience and self-

:36:41.:36:50.

awareness. He knows he is disliked. You have to be a resilient, when

:36:50.:36:55.

you have such an unpopular image. He Brasher's a lot of that aside

:36:55.:36:59.

easily, maybe too easily. What about ambitions for prime minister?

:36:59.:37:03.

Are I don't think he is desperate for the job. Even when he was in a

:37:03.:37:06.

better position to get the job a couple of years ago, when he was

:37:06.:37:10.

more feted than he is now, we in the media exaggerated his interest

:37:10.:37:15.

in the job. We see Osborne and Cameron has parallels for Brown and

:37:15.:37:22.

Blair, and they are not. He is not as intensely ambitious as Gordon

:37:22.:37:27.

Brown was. So breaking news now. Theresa May, the Home Secretary, is

:37:27.:37:31.

blocking the extradition of Gary McKinnon, the computer hacker, to

:37:31.:37:34.

the United States. We will be bringing you much more on that. In

:37:34.:37:40.

the last few minutes, Theresa May, the Home Secretary, has made that

:37:40.:37:43.

decision, under a lot of political pressure, the block the extradition

:37:43.:37:45.

of Gary McKinnon. Now, what would it be like to go

:37:45.:37:50.

straight from university to being a full-time politician? One member of

:37:50.:37:53.

the Northern Ireland Assembly has recently done that. Sinn Fein's

:37:53.:37:58.

Megan Fearon, 21, is the youngest parliamentarian in the UK. Northern

:37:58.:38:02.

Ireland also has the youngest serving lord mayor, Gavin Grabban

:38:02.:38:07.

some of the DUP, who is leading Belfast City Council at the age of

:38:07.:38:10.

27. We spoke to them and asked what impact they are having on political

:38:10.:38:20.
:38:20.:38:23.

life in the province. Politics here has had a drink from

:38:23.:38:26.

the fountain of youth. The twentysomethings are not just

:38:26.:38:31.

getting involved, they are taking some top jobs. Just a few months

:38:31.:38:35.

ago, a student called Megan Fearon was sitting her finals here at

:38:35.:38:41.

Queen's University. Since then, she has gone from studying politics to

:38:41.:38:46.

being a fully fledged politician. Now she has swapped lectures for

:38:46.:38:49.

legislation and course work for committees. Not only is she the

:38:49.:38:54.

youngest member of the Northern Ireland Assembly, she is also the

:38:54.:38:58.

youngest parliamentarian in the UK. They is a link between school

:38:58.:39:04.

attendance and deprivation. At the age of 21, Megan Fearon was made

:39:04.:39:09.

MLA in June, just before her graduation. I thought about it long

:39:10.:39:13.

and hard, but if you want to make a difference, you have to lead by

:39:13.:39:19.

example. We definitely need more women and young people in politics.

:39:19.:39:23.

I felt I could not be an advocate for that and not attempt to break

:39:23.:39:29.

the glass ceiling myself when the opportunity arose. Good morning,

:39:29.:39:35.

everyone. Me to Gavin Robinson, the DUP's choice to lead Northern

:39:35.:39:39.

Ireland's biggest council. He is still three years of 30. The lord

:39:39.:39:43.

mayor thinks jobs don't get much better than his present one.

:39:43.:39:48.

try to do your bit to help people. It is a satisfying part of my life

:39:48.:39:53.

where you get to engage with people. Being actively involved in that,

:39:53.:39:59.

opening doors where you can, it is very rewarding. But would more

:39:59.:40:01.

senior people consider casting their vote for someone a lot

:40:01.:40:07.

younger? For a young man in their twenties, he does not have a lot of

:40:07.:40:13.

experience. There need fresh blood. If they have the experience, he

:40:13.:40:18.

could do it. Megan Fearon and Gavin Robinson think their voices are

:40:18.:40:23.

valuable. I don't think my life experience is less valid than

:40:23.:40:29.

anyone else's because it is shorter. Everyone has their lives, and the

:40:29.:40:33.

political body should represent that. We have a young population in

:40:33.:40:38.

an off. That should be put across in what we discuss and the issues

:40:38.:40:45.

we raised. I have worked professionally. I have an education

:40:45.:40:49.

as good as it is worth, but I have my own experience and my own

:40:49.:40:56.

reflections. I may only be 27. But I would like to think that my view

:40:56.:41:02.

is as important as that of someone else with 40 years of experience.

:41:02.:41:06.

The they are passionate about promoting young people's interests

:41:06.:41:13.

in the places of power, and a lifetime of political -- time in

:41:13.:41:16.

the political limelight may lie ahead.

:41:16.:41:21.

Palmer and's youngest MP, Pamela Nash, joins us. And the ever so

:41:21.:41:26.

youthful Joan Bakewell is still here. In the generations understand

:41:26.:41:30.

each other? Death and a cliff. It is interesting following that film

:41:31.:41:35.

to look at how many of our young politicians come from Northern

:41:35.:41:39.

Ireland and Scotland. A why is that? There are good run a ships

:41:39.:41:43.

between the generations in the small communities where these

:41:43.:41:47.

politicians come from. Young people are encouraged to speak their mind.

:41:47.:41:52.

Do you think that is true? In 0 and Ireland, they have been up against

:41:52.:41:59.

the realities of life. I think it has been a forcing ground. You are

:41:59.:42:02.

surrounded by the Troubles. You have had to think about the

:42:02.:42:07.

community from an early age. But nowadays, people say the extended

:42:07.:42:12.

family is not such a big part of family life. People move away, and

:42:12.:42:15.

that compact between older and younger generations does not exist

:42:15.:42:20.

to the same extent. I can see that that is the case, but it is

:42:20.:42:23.

wonderful that many of these MPs are not just young, they are women

:42:23.:42:27.

as well. I think the emergence of young people concerned about

:42:27.:42:31.

politics is really overdue. It is terrific that they are coming

:42:31.:42:34.

forward, because the older generations like me have been

:42:34.:42:40.

saying for a long time that we cared so passionately about nuclear

:42:40.:42:42.

disarmament and it all these ideologies of the time. Where are

:42:42.:42:47.

the youngsters who Philp passionate about politics? It is great to see

:42:47.:42:51.

them arriving. What are the passions for young people now? In

:42:51.:42:55.

those days, the ideological differences were clear and people

:42:55.:42:59.

were brought up in a field of protest and debate. It is the big

:42:59.:43:02.

issues that bring young people into politics. Young people are not

:43:03.:43:06.

always good at voting, but they are good at marching in the street and

:43:06.:43:10.

making their voice heard about the issues that matters to them.

:43:10.:43:15.

Unfortunately, a lot of those campaigns in recent years have been

:43:15.:43:20.

things that directly matter to them, about tuition fees and now the

:43:20.:43:25.

housing situation. Young people feel short-changed. Joan, is there

:43:25.:43:29.

a feeling among some of the older politicians at Westminster that

:43:29.:43:33.

people like Pamela might be wet behind the ears, that, to use

:43:33.:43:37.

Ronald Reagan's phrase, I am not going to exploit my opponent for

:43:37.:43:42.

his youth and ex -- inexperience, or are they more expecting --

:43:42.:43:47.

tolerating? It is different for different generations. Older people

:43:47.:43:51.

are not accepting of the young, they feel threatened by them. They

:43:51.:43:55.

feel that they do not know as much as we do. In some ways, they don't,

:43:55.:44:00.

but they are very much attuned to the generation that matters. It is

:44:00.:44:05.

interesting that the Arab Spring in all those countries across the

:44:05.:44:09.

Middle East is happening in countries where a high popular --

:44:09.:44:13.

high percentage of the population is under 30. It is important that

:44:13.:44:18.

young people do take a lead and understand that well. We do have an

:44:18.:44:21.

ageing population, but we don't want to isolate the Government with

:44:21.:44:25.

that ageing population. We want to see younger people coming along.

:44:25.:44:31.

Shoot some of the older politicians be pensioned off? I have to defend

:44:31.:44:34.

the more experienced politicians, because ever since I was elected

:44:34.:44:38.

two and a half years ago, there has been nothing but a warm welcome.

:44:38.:44:41.

Most of my colleagues feel that we do need younger people in

:44:41.:44:46.

Parliament to ensure that it is truly representative of society.

:44:46.:44:50.

And that means representatives from all age groups. But isn't there a

:44:50.:44:57.

bit of conflict? There is envy of the baby boomers, who have done so

:44:57.:45:04.

well financially. They have made a lot of money on their houses, they

:45:04.:45:08.

have had index-linked pensions, no tuition fees. There is a lot of

:45:08.:45:13.

anger that somehow, your generation has done better? Won the saddest

:45:13.:45:16.

things I hear as a politician is when a young person tells me on the

:45:16.:45:20.

doorstep that they do not vote because politicians do not listen.

:45:20.:45:25.

That is a reason to vote. If you look at austerity measures, they

:45:25.:45:28.

have hurt young people arguably more than any other group in

:45:28.:45:32.

society, and that is because young people are not using their vote

:45:32.:45:37.

enough, so politicians don't listen. Should pensioners lose their

:45:37.:45:43.

universal benefits? I do believe that. That envy is quite difficult

:45:43.:45:47.

for the younger generations to deal with. People say now it is much

:45:47.:45:52.

tougher to get onto the housing ladder. They are right about that.

:45:52.:45:57.

There are so many older people, and older people vote, so any

:45:58.:46:02.

government is likely to consider the interests of older people when

:46:02.:46:09.

it comes to electioneering. The things that young people care about,

:46:09.:46:15.

climate change, education, the cost of housing, they care about those

:46:15.:46:25.
:46:25.:46:26.

because it is hitting them hard. Is there a fear among old people of

:46:26.:46:30.

the young? People will remember those unfortunate pictures of the

:46:30.:46:34.

rioting that went on in London, you know, for whatever reason, and is

:46:34.:46:39.

that the sort of thing that affects older people in their views of the

:46:39.:46:44.

young? I I wish you wouldn't regard me as representative of all older

:46:44.:46:49.

people! I do think it is important that the old listen to the young. I

:46:49.:46:52.

went to the St Paul's occupy movement a couple of times, just to

:46:52.:46:55.

talk to people and just to meet people, they were very welcoming

:46:55.:46:59.

and they were very pleased to explain to me why they were there

:46:59.:47:03.

and what they hoped. Very often testify naive and in my judgment,

:47:03.:47:07.

they weren't as wise, as I thought I was. But the point was they

:47:07.:47:14.

wanted to talk, and they were concerned. And we mustn't neglect

:47:14.:47:19.

that. Pamela Nash, good luck. While we have been on air the Home

:47:19.:47:22.

Secretary Theresa May has announced her decision on whether the

:47:22.:47:25.

computer Hacker Gary McKinnon should be extradited to the United

:47:25.:47:32.

States. Mr McKinnon who has a sporm of autism is accused of hacking US

:47:32.:47:35.

Government computers. Since I came into office the sole issue on which

:47:35.:47:41.

I have been required to make a decision is whether gark's

:47:41.:47:45.

extradition to the US would breach his human rites, he is accused of

:47:45.:47:50.

serious crime, but there is also no doubt he seriously ill, he has

:47:50.:47:53.

Asperger's Syndrome and suffers from depressive illness. The legal

:47:54.:47:58.

question before me is now whether the extent of that illness is

:47:58.:48:04.

sufficient to preclude extradition. As the House would expect, I have

:48:04.:48:08.

carefully considered the representations made on his behalf.

:48:08.:48:12.

Including from a number ofically in addition, I have obtained my own

:48:12.:48:16.

medical advice from practitioners recommended to me, and I have taken

:48:16.:48:20.

extensive legal advice. After careful consideration, of all of

:48:20.:48:25.

the relevant material, I have concluded that Mr McKinnon's

:48:25.:48:30.

extradition would give rise to such a high risk of him ending his

:48:30.:48:34.

life... That a decision to extradite would be incompatible

:48:34.:48:39.

with his human rights. I have therefore withdrawn the extradition

:48:39.:48:47.

order against Mr McKinnon. It will now be for the Director of Public

:48:47.:48:51.

Prosecutions to decide whether he has a case to answer in a UK court.

:48:51.:48:54.

Theresa May. Let us get more on this with our political

:48:54.:48:58.

correspondent Carole Walker. She made that announcement to cheers in

:48:58.:49:02.

the House, so a popular decision there and clearly with gark's

:49:02.:49:07.

family. She acted on the medical advice that was given to her, it is

:49:07.:49:11.

a significant decision. It S I am sure one that will be greeted with

:49:11.:49:15.

a huge amount of relief by his family, and other campaigners who

:49:15.:49:19.

have argued for a long time that Gary McKinnon was a computer nerd,

:49:19.:49:26.

a geek who was looking for UFOs and was not trying to hack into

:49:26.:49:29.

sensitive material in the United States. The American authorities

:49:29.:49:34.

took a very different case, of course. They said that he had

:49:34.:49:37.

actually done damage to very sensitive files, and they very much

:49:37.:49:42.

wanted to put him on trial there in the United States. They had argued

:49:42.:49:47.

very strongly that because of his history of mental illness, and

:49:47.:49:51.

because of his Asperger's Syndrome, his state of mind, that there was a

:49:51.:49:55.

very strong likelihood that he would commit suicide if he was

:49:55.:49:59.

extradited, and Theresa May announced today that having looked

:49:59.:50:05.

at the medical advice, and also the expert legal opinion, in this case

:50:05.:50:10.

where she has a quasi-judicial role, she is acting in a separate legal

:50:10.:50:14.

capacity, she feels it is right to block the extradition, because she

:50:14.:50:18.

believed there was a high risk he could take his own life, and that

:50:18.:50:23.

is a fundamental breach of human rites. Now, that obviously is a

:50:23.:50:26.

specific case, but Theresa May has also been talking more broadly

:50:26.:50:30.

about the extradition system, about the treaty that was signed between

:50:30.:50:37.

the US and UK. What has she said about that? Several significant

:50:37.:50:40.

changes, the first thing she has introduced something called the

:50:40.:50:46.

forum bar, and what this means is when there is a case which involves

:50:46.:50:51.

a crime which perhaps covers UK soil, and foreign tertri, as in the

:50:51.:50:55.

case we have just been talking about, there will have to be a

:50:55.:50:59.

hearing in a British court, for a British court to decide if there is

:50:59.:51:03.

suitable ground for an extradition hearing to go ahead. So it will

:51:03.:51:09.

mean a British court will in the first instance decide whether that

:51:09.:51:12.

individual should be tried here in the UK. Now, Shetland went on the

:51:12.:51:17.

say she accepted -- she went on to say she accepted the findings of a

:51:17.:51:22.

review she has commissioned, there was no imbalance between Britain

:51:22.:51:27.

and the US, on this. But she also introduced another change, which

:51:27.:51:32.

means that in future where there are appeals, like the one we have

:51:32.:51:37.

been hearing about, where people say extra dit would harm their

:51:37.:51:41.

human rite, that would be decided by the high court not the Home

:51:41.:51:46.

Secretary. Thank you. Joan Bakewell you welcome this? I welcome it. She

:51:46.:51:51.

has done her image a good turn, she will be seen as having made a

:51:51.:51:54.

thoughtful an to some extent generous decision, so I think it

:51:54.:51:57.

will be welcomed. I am interested in the other changes that are

:51:57.:52:02.

coming about, and I think that will go on being debated and subject to

:52:02.:52:06.

scrutiny for some time. That is good too. All right. Well, it is

:52:06.:52:11.

nearly 50 year since the world teetered on the edge of the nuclear

:52:11.:52:14.

abyss. The Cuban Missile Crisis in October 1962 was the high water

:52:14.:52:20.

mark of ten stwhiens the USA and the Soviet Union. The point at

:52:20.:52:23.

which the Cold War almost became a hot war. In a moment we will talk

:52:24.:52:28.

to a historian about Britain's role at the time let us remind ourself

:52:28.:52:35.

of the event. To Guantanamo US base on Cuba, the Americans send strong

:52:35.:52:39.

reinforcement of marines. Meanwhile, the naval blockade against Russian

:52:39.:52:43.

and satellite ships nearing Cuba was put into effect. At the White

:52:43.:52:46.

House, making the announcement to the waiting world, Mr Kennedy said

:52:46.:52:54.

that only a few days before, he was assured that Russia has put no

:52:54.:52:57.

rockets on Cuba. Photographic proof to the contrary was soon in the

:52:57.:53:04.

President's hand. What kind of rock t? The moss kai Mayday parade had

:53:04.:53:10.

featured. So they were pointing at American cities. Powerful stuff,

:53:10.:53:14.

joining me is the historian Peter shen si who has written numerous

:53:14.:53:19.

books about Britain in the Cold War. It seems to me, that the world held

:53:19.:53:25.

its breath for those tense days during the escalation of events.

:53:25.:53:31.

They did. It's the chosest we have come to it happening, thermonuclear

:53:31.:53:34.

exchange, global war, but it was a closer run thing than we realised

:53:34.:53:38.

if the time. If Kennedy had known there were warhead already on Cuba,

:53:38.:53:42.

Russian one, and that the local Russian commander had the final say

:53:42.:53:47.

on whether they were launched on an invading American ary it would have

:53:47.:53:51.

made the calculations different. Ten years ago Russian submariner, I

:53:51.:53:56.

wasn't there, told a conference on Cuba they were stuck on their

:53:56.:54:00.

diesel submarine, with a nuclear torpedo on, the United States navy

:54:00.:54:04.

keeping them down. They can't clean their air, the temperature was

:54:04.:54:10.

rising, they could hardly breathe and the captain liezs it. He was

:54:11.:54:15.

overruled by his number two and the political officer, now if that

:54:15.:54:19.

nuclear torpedo had been launched that would have been it. It is

:54:19.:54:25.

amazing really, that it didn't happen. I mean. It was unbearable.

:54:25.:54:29.

What was it like at the time? thought the world would end. It was

:54:29.:54:35.

as close as close as you can be and not have nuclear war. We would go,

:54:35.:54:39.

we would leave work, in the evening and say, see you tomorrow, if we

:54:39.:54:43.

are still here, and people would go, yes, let's hope, let's hope, but

:54:43.:54:48.

people walked round expecting a flash in the sky, and the end of

:54:48.:54:53.

the world. I mean it was absolutely expected. Widely expected, and

:54:53.:54:57.

there was nothing to do but hold your breath. You could not do

:54:58.:55:04.

anything. You couldn't march. You couldn't protest. I went for a walk

:55:04.:55:08.

in the Black Mountain, we set off on the Sunday, October 27th

:55:08.:55:12.

thinking we might not come back tonight but what a place to go. We

:55:12.:55:22.

found Mr Khrushchev had stood down when we got back. I found a

:55:22.:55:26.

document that looked at war, and they said it could arise if one

:55:26.:55:30.

side or the other behaved in such a way it was intolerable to the other

:55:30.:55:33.

side and they hadn't realised it would be or if they involved a

:55:33.:55:37.

third party, with whom they were associated outside of the Soviet

:55:37.:55:45.

bloc. Then it says Cuba. So British intelligence... How did they know?

:55:45.:55:48.

They were looking at the general circumstances where it might get

:55:48.:55:54.

out of control. The stalemate was you couldn't lift a muscle. One

:55:54.:56:00.

side would think we will try it on, just try and get a bit of advantage,

:56:00.:56:03.

then it would unravel rapidly and British intelligence which is

:56:03.:56:07.

usually very criticised was spot on. They didn't say it was coming in

:56:07.:56:12.

October, because it didn't, but thaw foresaw the events that could

:56:12.:56:17.

produce it. What did they do in order to prepare for that outcome?

:56:17.:56:23.

Was there panic and preparation in Whitehall? There was a lady called

:56:23.:56:28.

Beryl who produced for many year, but she was known as the Queen of

:56:28.:56:33.

the war book. She would come in from south London, auntie Beryl as

:56:33.:56:36.

she was called. She Washington National Symphony Orchestra out the

:56:36.:56:43.

drills for the end of the world, the... What a role to have?

:56:43.:56:49.

every capital there would have been a Mrs Beryl. These are declassified

:56:49.:56:53.

now, these war tpwhie, are extraordinary, for our generation,

:56:53.:57:00.

Joan you go into those and you look over the abyss. Because Because the

:57:00.:57:04.

thought of another World War... sears your mind. You look, I have

:57:04.:57:08.

just come back from a visit to Hiroshima, there was a global with

:57:08.:57:12.

all the existing warheads, nuclear warheads on the planet, and there

:57:12.:57:16.

are thousands of them. And I just looked at that and thought they

:57:16.:57:22.

haven't been to Hiroshima. It just gives you pause, and makes you

:57:22.:57:26.

realise that nuclear disarmament must go on negotiations have to

:57:26.:57:31.

continue, because the world is bristling with it. It is more

:57:31.:57:35.

precarious now because of the proliferation, but the greatest

:57:35.:57:41.

shared Boon of our lifetime is that the Cold War ended the way it did,

:57:41.:57:45.

without general wa, it trumps everything else. A deal was done in

:57:45.:57:50.

the end. They wouldn't invade.... What happened... They wouldn't

:57:50.:57:56.

invade Cuba. And they would, if Mr Khrushchev removed the missiles

:57:56.:58:00.

they would remove the NATO missiles from Turkey, so there was a back

:58:00.:58:04.

channel in Washington. The doeld war ending is miraculous, it is

:58:04.:58:08.

breathtaking for me, the most I could hope for, when I was growing

:58:08.:58:15.

up, was an an American am bas for do to London called it the cheaper

:58:15.:58:20.

form of deadlock. It is nice we don't live under that shadow any

:58:20.:58:24.

more. It is not right to discount it and say we will pocket that bit

:58:24.:58:29.

I took the most extraordinary set of circumstances. A lot of simply

:58:29.:58:34.

good luck, because people were speaking of, we have no alternative

:58:34.:58:39.

to total destruction. OK. I will have to stop you there. The Berlin

:58:39.:58:43.

wall had no idea it was going to happen. Thanks to my guest,

:58:43.:58:48.

particularly to Joan Bakewell for being my guest of the day. The one

:58:48.:58:53.

The latest political news, interviews and debate with Jo Coburn. Jesse Norman from the Treasury Select Committee talks about the inflation figures and Baroness Joan Bakewell talks about young people in politics.


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