Browse content similar to 16/10/2012. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Good afternoon. Welcome to the Daily Politics. Computer hacker | :00:42. | :00:45. | |
Gary McKinnon awaits his fate as the Home Secretary prepares to | :00:45. | :00:49. | |
announce whether she will block his extradition to the US. We will | :00:49. | :00:52. | |
bring you that decision. Her inflation is at its lowest | :00:52. | :00:56. | |
level for almost three years, but with food and energy prices on the | :00:56. | :01:00. | |
rise, how long will that last? Les but calls for a public inquiry | :01:01. | :01:05. | |
into the allegations of sexual abuse by Jimmy Savile in a school, | :01:05. | :01:13. | |
hospitals and at the BBC. To Guantanamo, US base on Cuba, the | :01:13. | :01:17. | |
US sends reinforcement of Marines. And it is 50 years since the Cuban | :01:17. | :01:25. | |
missile crisis. How close did we get to nuclear war? | :01:25. | :01:30. | |
All that in the next hour. With us today is the Labour peer and | :01:30. | :01:35. | |
broadcaster, Baroness Joan Bakewell. Let's start with that imminent | :01:35. | :01:38. | |
decision on whether computer hacker Gary McKinnon should face charges | :01:38. | :01:43. | |
in the United States of hacking into Pentagon computer systems. The | :01:43. | :01:47. | |
Home Secretary, Theresa May, is due to make a statement in the Commons | :01:47. | :01:50. | |
in the next half-hour. She has to decide whether to block the | :01:50. | :01:54. | |
extradition on human rights grounds. He has been diagnosed with | :01:54. | :01:57. | |
Asperger's Syndrome and medical reports say he would be a suicide | :01:57. | :02:01. | |
risk if sent to the US, where he could face up to 60 years in jail. | :02:02. | :02:05. | |
His is just one of a number of cases that have led to questions | :02:05. | :02:10. | |
about whether the extradition treaty with the US it is fair. The | :02:10. | :02:12. | |
former Liberal Democrat leader Ming Campbell has written a report on | :02:12. | :02:17. | |
the treaty for the Liberal Democrats, and he joins us now. How | :02:17. | :02:21. | |
significant is his decision today by Theresa May? Is it is very | :02:21. | :02:25. | |
significant, not just in relation to Gary McKinnon, but in relation | :02:25. | :02:29. | |
to the other elements of the whole issue of extradition. The Home | :02:29. | :02:35. | |
Secretary has taken her time. There was the Baker report. She has taken | :02:35. | :02:39. | |
some months to consider that. In addition to any decision about Gary | :02:39. | :02:46. | |
McKinnon, there are two other issues am concerned about. Firstly, | :02:46. | :02:50. | |
there is deciding whether British citizens should be prosecuted. At | :02:50. | :02:55. | |
the moment, that is done by the Director of Public Prosecutions. I | :02:55. | :02:57. | |
hope the Home Secretary will announce that that will now be done | :02:57. | :03:01. | |
by a judge in an open court. The other thing refers to the differing | :03:02. | :03:06. | |
standards of proof required. If you want to get an American citizen to | :03:06. | :03:10. | |
Britain by extradition, you have to show a probable cause, whereas if | :03:10. | :03:13. | |
you are doing the reverse and getting a British citizen to the | :03:13. | :03:17. | |
United States, a reasonable suspicion is enough. It is an | :03:17. | :03:20. | |
important distinction and I hope the Home Secretary deals with these | :03:20. | :03:25. | |
matters. There is huge political pressure on her, because both David | :03:25. | :03:29. | |
Cameron and Nick Clegg, before the general election, said Gary | :03:29. | :03:34. | |
McKinnon should not be extradited to the US. One might presume that | :03:34. | :03:38. | |
she will block the extradition? don't think you can presume | :03:38. | :03:45. | |
anything. There is a variety of alternatives flowing about the | :03:45. | :03:52. | |
House of Commons this morning. It does appear to be the case that two | :03:52. | :03:55. | |
independent examiners, a psychiatrist and psychologist, have | :03:55. | :04:00. | |
seen Mr MacKinnon recently and written a report, extracts of which | :04:00. | :04:03. | |
have been produced which suggest that they would support, from a | :04:03. | :04:08. | |
medical point of view, the contention that he should not be | :04:08. | :04:11. | |
extradited on human rights grounds. But that does not bind the | :04:11. | :04:15. | |
Secretary of State. She has to exercise her own discretion. It is | :04:15. | :04:21. | |
there a risk of a precedent being set here? There has to be a law in | :04:21. | :04:25. | |
these cases that applies to everyone equally. If she does block | :04:25. | :04:30. | |
this extradition, then it could open the floodgates in terms of | :04:30. | :04:35. | |
requests. You are right. If the decision is not to extradite Gary | :04:35. | :04:40. | |
McKinnon, the Home Secretary would have to justify it by saying that | :04:40. | :04:45. | |
there were special and particular circumstances in this case. It is | :04:45. | :04:49. | |
in the interests of Great Britain and the United States that we have | :04:49. | :04:54. | |
an effective extradition system. That system must be consistent with | :04:54. | :04:59. | |
human rights, be legal and more fundamentally, it has to be a | :04:59. | :05:03. | |
system in which the British public has confidence. That confidence has | :05:03. | :05:10. | |
not been on display recently. We will hopefully hear from Theresa | :05:10. | :05:16. | |
May within the next half-hour. Joan Bakewell, to some extent, this | :05:16. | :05:21. | |
extradition treaty was used in order to allow a flow of terror | :05:21. | :05:28. | |
suspects. Indeed, he came -- it came in after 9/11. There was a | :05:28. | :05:32. | |
flood of concern and legislation to make it easier to pursue terrorists. | :05:32. | :05:37. | |
Hacking into the pan Digan is of course a shocking crime -- hacking | :05:37. | :05:42. | |
into the Pentagon. But the point Menzies makes is important, that | :05:42. | :05:47. | |
the public at large field that Gary McKinnon should be given the | :05:47. | :05:50. | |
benefit of the medical reports. The human rights issue about his | :05:50. | :05:56. | |
Asperger's syndrome should weigh with the judgment. I agree with | :05:56. | :06:02. | |
that. Although legislation has to be seen to be fair, it is easier | :06:02. | :06:07. | |
for Americans -- for America to extradite people from here than it | :06:07. | :06:11. | |
is for us to extradite from there. There were the NatWest three and so | :06:11. | :06:21. | |
:06:21. | :06:22. | ||
on. We want fairness and compassion. But is there then a risk that | :06:22. | :06:26. | |
medical grounds, or human rights legislation, could be used to keep | :06:26. | :06:30. | |
people here who we don't necessarily want to keep, who | :06:30. | :06:36. | |
should be extradited? Every case is a particular one. If people try and | :06:36. | :06:40. | |
win the lead and say there is a medical case for this, it has to be | :06:40. | :06:43. | |
recognised. People are skilled enough to know these things and | :06:43. | :06:52. | |
whether they are genuine. Asperger's is a very elusive | :06:52. | :06:58. | |
problem, so it would take experts to assess it. But it is not beyond | :06:58. | :07:03. | |
the means of intelligent people. Now, as you may have heard, the | :07:03. | :07:07. | |
rate of inflation has dropped to its lowest level for nearly three | :07:07. | :07:12. | |
years. Relieved? Well, unfortunately, it is not as simple | :07:12. | :07:16. | |
as the headline suggests. The rate of consumer price index inflation | :07:16. | :07:21. | |
fell from 2.5% in August to 2.2% in September. Although the slowing | :07:21. | :07:24. | |
pace in living costs will be a relief for many, those claiming the | :07:24. | :07:28. | |
basic state pension or benefits are likely to see a smaller increase | :07:28. | :07:32. | |
next April because the September inflation figures are used as the | :07:32. | :07:36. | |
basis to calculate any rises. The downward trend is also likely to be | :07:36. | :07:40. | |
coming to an end. The Office of National Statistics has warned that | :07:40. | :07:44. | |
inflation is likely to rise in the coming months. A poor harvest has | :07:44. | :07:48. | |
pushed up grain prices, which will increase the cost of food. The big | :07:48. | :07:53. | |
energy companies, including British Gas, Npower and SSE, have recently | :07:53. | :07:56. | |
increased energy prices, which is likely to have an upward impact on | :07:56. | :08:01. | |
future figures. Some experts are warning that the increasing | :08:01. | :08:04. | |
university tuition fees will also contribute to the end of a downward | :08:04. | :08:12. | |
pattern in inflation. For many of us, the outlook seems less positive. | :08:12. | :08:16. | |
Merryn Somerset Webb of money Week magazine joins me now. Presumably | :08:16. | :08:21. | |
the first impression is that it is a good piece of news that inflation | :08:21. | :08:26. | |
is on its way down? Absolutely, but if it is only temporary, it does | :08:26. | :08:30. | |
not help as much. There are several things which will push inflation up | :08:30. | :08:36. | |
over the coming months. Before this month is almost entirely due to | :08:36. | :08:38. | |
rises in utility prices from last year coming out, and utility prices | :08:38. | :08:47. | |
are about to go up again. That will come back in. The poor harvest will | :08:47. | :08:51. | |
also affect things. So will tuition fees. What happens to inflation is | :08:51. | :08:57. | |
also dependent on what happens to our currency. So this is really a | :08:57. | :09:04. | |
blip, and actually, we will see rises coming in soon? Yes. And the | :09:04. | :09:08. | |
problem with that is that the thing that matters about inflation is its | :09:08. | :09:13. | |
impact on confidence. Over the last couple of years, inflation has | :09:13. | :09:17. | |
consistently been higher than expected. Now they expect inflation | :09:17. | :09:22. | |
to be volatile, which affects confidence and spending. That is a | :09:22. | :09:27. | |
big deal for the economy. though it is good if you are in | :09:27. | :09:30. | |
work and for households generally, what about for pensioners and those | :09:30. | :09:37. | |
on benefits? The Chancellor mainly takes the September rises in | :09:37. | :09:41. | |
account when he decides on benefits and payments to pensioners. Last | :09:41. | :09:46. | |
year, inflation was high, so the rises were high. This year, it is | :09:47. | :09:52. | |
lower, so it balances out. With us now is Conservative MP and member | :09:52. | :09:56. | |
of the Treasury Select Committee Jesse Norman. Good news for a | :09:56. | :10:01. | |
change? I think it is good news on two France, first at the cost falls | :10:01. | :10:05. | |
in inflation are always welcome and the inflation rate has halved over | :10:05. | :10:12. | |
the last two years. You ask, it has gone down from 5.2%. A tremendous | :10:12. | :10:19. | |
win. The second reason it is good is because even when there is some | :10:19. | :10:23. | |
re-rating to pensions, there is still a back place -- backstop | :10:23. | :10:27. | |
which the government put in place to say it cannot be less than 2.5%. | :10:27. | :10:34. | |
So even if there were an incentive to lower payments, it would still | :10:34. | :10:39. | |
be 2.5%. But to to still difficult for pensioners. It is still | :10:39. | :10:44. | |
difficult for pensioners, and I think it is a blip. With the shore | :10:44. | :10:47. | |
of rises that are coming, particularly the rise in food | :10:47. | :10:52. | |
prices, they will be seriously affected by the drought in America. | :10:52. | :10:58. | |
Pensioners are not sanguine about things. They do affect things that | :10:58. | :11:03. | |
affect their cost of living to rise. They will wait to see what happens. | :11:03. | :11:07. | |
Isn't the problem that actually, the cost of living element, so when | :11:07. | :11:12. | |
we talk about the food prices rising, energy bills and fuel costs, | :11:12. | :11:16. | |
those are things households have to spend money on, and those other | :11:16. | :11:20. | |
things the Government can do nothing about? The artisan embedded | :11:20. | :11:25. | |
problem in general. Joan is right that pensioners could reasonably | :11:25. | :11:30. | |
feel concerned. In my constituency, older people are very concerned | :11:30. | :11:35. | |
about fuel and petrol prices and increases in food prices. We are in | :11:35. | :11:39. | |
danger of seeing a hike in food prices after the bad harvest in | :11:39. | :11:43. | |
Britain. And there has been a bad harvest in many other parts of the | :11:43. | :11:47. | |
world. It could be stormy weather ahead. The but where will inflation | :11:48. | :11:53. | |
go from here? We have heard it is probably going to go straight back | :11:53. | :11:58. | |
up again, so it will be a short- lived benefit, if any benefit at | :11:58. | :12:07. | |
all. We are in a time of extraordinarily difficult economic | :12:07. | :12:17. | |
:12:17. | :12:17. | ||
trouble generally. That is not very comforting. Unfortunately, when you | :12:17. | :12:22. | |
are in choppy seas, confidence is not what you expect. We will would | :12:22. | :12:27. | |
not be out of them for a few years. A but from a consumer point of view, | :12:27. | :12:32. | |
are we looking at years of continued squeeze in household | :12:33. | :12:37. | |
expenditure and a squeeze on living standards? Wages have not risen in | :12:37. | :12:41. | |
real terms over the past few years. The air is no doubt that we will | :12:41. | :12:46. | |
continue to see a squeeze on living standards and household expenditure. | :12:46. | :12:52. | |
One wishes it could be different. The economy works in cycles. It | :12:52. | :12:56. | |
goes through periods of feast and famine. We missed a period of | :12:56. | :13:00. | |
famine in the early 2000s because there was so much extra spending. | :13:00. | :13:05. | |
We are now reaping the harvest of that, in a long term sustainable | :13:05. | :13:10. | |
period of living standards. That is inevitable. It is not inevitable. | :13:10. | :13:19. | |
The OBR and the IMF are beginning to say that austerity has gone too | :13:20. | :13:24. | |
far. It is having repercussions on the economy which could be avoided. | :13:24. | :13:30. | |
I do not think that is true. They have said one or two little things. | :13:30. | :13:34. | |
I don't know if you are taking a political position on this, but if | :13:34. | :13:39. | |
you are, you will recall that the IMF has been supportive of the | :13:39. | :13:45. | |
Government for the previous two years. Now it is saying, how long | :13:45. | :13:50. | |
can austerity go on for? They are right to raise the question, but | :13:50. | :13:53. | |
the consensus of opinion is still on the government's side. By but | :13:53. | :13:57. | |
they have also said the measure of the impact on the economy of | :13:57. | :14:02. | |
austerity has been underestimated. They think this term, the fiscal | :14:02. | :14:07. | |
multiplier, has been underestimated and that actually, every pound cut | :14:07. | :14:11. | |
has a greater impact on the economy than George Osborne and the IMF | :14:11. | :14:16. | |
first thought. I don't think that bears on the central economic | :14:16. | :14:23. | |
judgment. In 2010 Comedy Central judgment was, wasn't the right | :14:23. | :14:28. | |
thing to do to take control of the economic mess this country? It was | :14:28. | :14:35. | |
clearly right. Even now, look at the alternatives. The alternatives | :14:35. | :14:43. | |
are to allow borrowing costs... Borrowing is going up anyway. | :14:43. | :14:48. | |
alternative is to allow our long- term borrowing costs to go up. That | :14:48. | :14:54. | |
will clobber households even more. That is the inevitable counterpart | :14:54. | :14:58. | |
of Joan's idea that we should go and spend. Spending will not work. | :14:58. | :15:02. | |
People in a get hold do not spend the money they receive through tax | :15:02. | :15:07. | |
cuts or government programmes, they keep it to pay off the debts. | :15:07. | :15:16. | |
Spending can bring jobs. And it will give people who are unemployed | :15:16. | :15:19. | |
the resources. When unemployed people get an income, they spend it | :15:20. | :15:24. | |
all because they have such needs. You would have higher spending | :15:24. | :15:29. | |
across a whole swathe of re- employed people. What share of GDP | :15:29. | :15:37. | |
is consumed by the government at the moment? 42? For 49. The | :15:37. | :15:44. | |
historical problem has been that we have gone from 38-40% for decades | :15:45. | :15:50. | |
to the 49% now. To start to restrain the huge increase in state | :15:50. | :15:55. | |
spending. It does not help people. It depresses growth and is a bad | :15:55. | :16:05. | |
:16:05. | :16:05. | ||
What about now? George Osborne made that argument in 2010 and it was | :16:05. | :16:10. | |
accepted by many people, in terms of reigning in public expenditure, | :16:10. | :16:15. | |
but much of the, or many of the cuts have been to investment, have | :16:15. | :16:21. | |
been to capital expenditure, do you this that has harmed the growth | :16:21. | :16:27. | |
prospects of the economy? I think the Government needs to be training | :16:27. | :16:31. | |
every sinew to increase capital expenditure. That is why some of | :16:31. | :16:38. | |
the work I have been doing on reforming PFI is important. It | :16:38. | :16:42. | |
feeds through into hieing less expensive expenditure. They haven't | :16:42. | :16:47. | |
got the banks to lend on the scale it needs. It keeps launching | :16:47. | :16:52. | |
different ideas to get the banks to lend to people who want, small | :16:52. | :16:55. | |
businesses and so on, it isn't working to the extent that is | :16:55. | :16:58. | |
necessary. Surely you recognise that. Can I bring it back, just to | :16:58. | :17:02. | |
inflation and prices and how people are feeling. Politically, let us | :17:02. | :17:07. | |
move away from the economics, how difficult is it going to be for | :17:07. | :17:10. | |
your Government to get people to vote for them, when people are | :17:10. | :17:14. | |
going to continue to feel this squeeze, which you have admitted is | :17:14. | :17:19. | |
going to go on. T. It has been clear this will be a long-term | :17:19. | :17:23. | |
process. T I think you will not see the current benefits during the | :17:23. | :17:28. | |
life of this Parliament. I think there is actually, if we were | :17:28. | :17:31. | |
honest, a kind of heroism in saying we are going to do something that | :17:31. | :17:38. | |
we know is tough and difficult, even if we can say we won't reap | :17:38. | :17:42. | |
the political benefits. Will people thank you for that, if you continue | :17:42. | :17:45. | |
admitting you can't do anything about the energy prices, the fuel | :17:45. | :17:52. | |
prices, into the future, and there is still no growth. A lot of things | :17:53. | :17:58. | |
have been done to mitigate that. That is what they want do you look | :17:58. | :18:01. | |
at. I agree with that. It is obviously right to bear down on | :18:01. | :18:06. | |
that. The key question is if there is the beginnings of sustainable | :18:06. | :18:10. | |
high quality, not just high, growth, coming through the end of the | :18:10. | :18:13. | |
Parliament, I think they will realise the nay Sayers who said | :18:13. | :18:23. | |
turn again half way through, will right be right. The BBC, a girls | :18:23. | :18:26. | |
school and three NHS hospitals all implicated in the flood of | :18:26. | :18:28. | |
allegations of sexual abuse committed by Jimmy Savile. | :18:28. | :18:32. | |
Yesterday, questions were asked in the Commons about how the late DJ | :18:33. | :18:38. | |
and TV presenter was able to conceal evidence of his behaviour | :18:38. | :18:42. | |
over five decades and whether public institutions turned a blind | :18:42. | :18:47. | |
eye. MPs wanted to know why a BBC Newsnight report being prepared in | :18:47. | :18:54. | |
the aftermath of Savile's death was not broadcast. The BBC has launched | :18:54. | :18:59. | |
three separate investigations, the first will look particularly at the | :18:59. | :19:03. | |
allegations with regards to the item on Savile, which was | :19:03. | :19:07. | |
inappropriately pulled from Newsnight. The second review to be | :19:07. | :19:11. | |
undertaken when the police advice it is appropriate to do so, will | :19:11. | :19:15. | |
focus on Jimmy Savile himself, and although the BBC's child protection | :19:15. | :19:20. | |
policy was overhauled in 2000 2 the are view will focus on whether its | :19:20. | :19:25. | |
policy is fit for purpose and what lessons can be learned. That will | :19:25. | :19:27. | |
be assisted by an independent expert there San additional piece | :19:27. | :19:31. | |
of work that will look at the troubling allegation of sexual | :19:31. | :19:35. | |
harassment at the BBC that have come to light in recent weeks. | :19:35. | :19:39. | |
Everyone has been sickened by the vile abuse perpetrated by Jimmy | :19:39. | :19:42. | |
Savile, and it similar possible to overstate the suffering caused to | :19:42. | :19:48. | |
those he abused. And what has deepened the revulsion is this | :19:48. | :19:55. | |
happened at the BBC, an institution so loved and trusted it is known as | :19:55. | :20:00. | |
"auntie". Does she agree that no- one should be complacent and | :20:00. | :20:03. | |
believe sexual abuse by people in position of power happened then, | :20:04. | :20:08. | |
but could not happen now? And that is why the BBC should proceed now | :20:08. | :20:13. | |
to review all its policies and process on protection of children, | :20:13. | :20:16. | |
sexual harassment and whistle- blowing to be sure the right | :20:16. | :20:22. | |
policies and processes are in place, and they are properly enforced. | :20:22. | :20:26. | |
I echo the remarks that the revelation of recent weeks raise | :20:26. | :20:29. | |
serious questions, not just about the culture that existed in the BBC | :20:29. | :20:32. | |
some years ago, and in other organisation, but about the way in | :20:32. | :20:37. | |
which the BBC has handled this and in particular the very damaging | :20:37. | :20:43. | |
suggestion that the Newsnight investigation was suppressed. | :20:43. | :20:47. | |
may have heard the Culture Secretary Maria Miller saying the | :20:47. | :20:51. | |
Newsnight investigation into Jimmy Savile had been "inappropriately | :20:51. | :20:55. | |
dropped. "Her spokesperson said she had meant to say only that the BBC | :20:55. | :20:59. | |
was investigating whether or not the investigation had been | :20:59. | :21:03. | |
inappropriately dropped. Well, last night, Ed Miliband weighed inwhen | :21:03. | :21:08. | |
he was questioned on the ITV show The Agenda. These are horrific | :21:08. | :21:13. | |
allegation, now I think in order to do right by the victim, I don't | :21:13. | :21:17. | |
think the BBC can load their own inquiry. I have thought about this | :21:17. | :21:20. | |
as a statement in Parliament today. I think we need a broader look at | :21:21. | :21:28. | |
these public institution, the BBC, I am afraid some parts of the NHS, | :21:28. | :21:31. | |
potentially Broadmoor. I am open minded about how it is done but it | :21:31. | :21:34. | |
has to be independent. I don't think you can have the BBC board. I | :21:34. | :21:39. | |
am a great supporter of the BBC, I don't think you can have the BBC | :21:39. | :21:43. | |
board leading its own inquiry. Miliband there. Rob Wilson is the | :21:43. | :21:46. | |
MP who asked an urgent question on Jimmy Savile in the Commons | :21:46. | :21:49. | |
yesterday. He joins us now. What do you want to find out? I have been | :21:50. | :21:54. | |
asking for an independent inquiry now for over two week, and the BBC, | :21:54. | :21:58. | |
bit by bit, dragging its feet is coming to the point where it is | :21:58. | :22:01. | |
offering an independent inquiry. That is not the same thing that Ed | :22:01. | :22:04. | |
Miliband is asking for, he is asking for a wider public inquiry. | :22:04. | :22:08. | |
I think it is early and premature to be doing that. I think the BBC, | :22:08. | :22:12. | |
if it does have an independent chairman, if it does have an | :22:12. | :22:16. | |
independent panel, can deal with this at the moment. However, it | :22:16. | :22:19. | |
also depends how much comes nowt the next few weeks and months, | :22:19. | :22:23. | |
because I still think we aren't at the bottom of the barrel, in terms | :22:23. | :22:26. | |
of things that will come out. say the BBC has been dragging its | :22:26. | :22:31. | |
feet, but you have just said you would like to wait for the next | :22:31. | :22:34. | |
weeks and months, wouldn't it be better to wait, because there is a | :22:34. | :22:38. | |
sense, I mean listening to Maria Miller there, the Secretary of | :22:38. | :22:42. | |
State, she miss spoke, but a feeling that people have made up | :22:42. | :22:45. | |
their mind that somehow they are pre-judging some of the inquiries. | :22:45. | :22:49. | |
For me with the BBC there are two separate issue, one is about the | :22:49. | :22:51. | |
police and the criminal investigation, and that I think has | :22:51. | :22:55. | |
to happen, the police are right to co-operate with it. The second is | :22:55. | :22:59. | |
about the independent inquiry into the culture of the BBC. There is | :22:59. | :23:03. | |
something, something went badly wrong within the culture of the BBC. | :23:03. | :23:08. | |
We have had stor stories of turning a blind eye, fondling young women, | :23:08. | :23:13. | |
I think that is what needs to be looked at. Why was there this | :23:13. | :23:17. | |
culture that allowed people like Jimmy Savile to be sustained in | :23:17. | :23:22. | |
that culture over such a long period of time. Was there a cull -- | :23:22. | :23:26. | |
culture of that? You are younger than I am and I remember it. It was | :23:26. | :23:29. | |
the culture of the time. Older than I look. You were there at the time. | :23:30. | :23:35. | |
Is that a fair, is that a fair allegation against the BBC | :23:35. | :23:39. | |
specifically at that time? No, it was the culture of the Times and it | :23:39. | :23:43. | |
is very hard to identify what that was, decades later, and honestly, | :23:43. | :23:47. | |
how many more inquiries are we going to have? We will have one | :23:47. | :23:51. | |
here, one there, everyone has an opinion suddenly about this, but | :23:51. | :23:54. | |
the opinions that matter, the opinions of the women, who were | :23:54. | :23:58. | |
molested were never listened to. Everyone goes on about where was | :23:58. | :24:02. | |
the evidence, where was the evidence? The evidence was what the | :24:02. | :24:06. | |
women were telling them, They weren't believed at the time. | :24:06. | :24:12. | |
are allegations that the BBC internally suppressed many of those | :24:12. | :24:17. | |
reports. What evidence is there of that? I have had reports from woman, | :24:17. | :24:20. | |
I have spoken to the police about it. There are serious allegations | :24:20. | :24:23. | |
out there and it is up to the police to look at those allegations, | :24:23. | :24:28. | |
but also for this internal inquiry, to look at those allegations as | :24:28. | :24:34. | |
well. Hang on... We were all padded, pinched stroked, the whole female | :24:34. | :24:39. | |
sex was available, in those days, not willingly so in the '60s, it | :24:39. | :24:43. | |
was how you treated women. There was a culture within the BBC of | :24:43. | :24:48. | |
senior management targeting younger employees, female employees. | :24:48. | :24:52. | |
you just talking about the BBC? Are we not talking as Joan is saying | :24:52. | :24:56. | |
across the board in institution, you know, the NHS, potentially, | :24:56. | :25:01. | |
other big institutions where this culture existed? I have asked for | :25:01. | :25:03. | |
investigation to what happened at Stoke Mandeville to take place, I | :25:03. | :25:08. | |
am not just targeting the BBC. I think the police have questioned to | :25:08. | :25:10. | |
ask. The Crown Prosecution Service, children's homes, there are lots of | :25:10. | :25:14. | |
different questions that need to be answered, but that doesn't mean | :25:14. | :25:18. | |
that the BBC shouldn't answer its own questions. You don't have faith | :25:18. | :25:22. | |
in the BBC inquiries themselves, the three inquirys that have been | :25:22. | :25:26. | |
launched? If they sipt an independent chairman, with an | :25:26. | :25:30. | |
independent panel, and they publish the right remit I will be happy for | :25:30. | :25:34. | |
them to do the inquiry. That doesn't mean to say that will be | :25:34. | :25:37. | |
enough ultimately. It depends what we find during that inquiry and | :25:37. | :25:42. | |
whether the results, how the results are defined. That sound | :25:42. | :25:46. | |
like a fishing exercise. To take the point about the culture, how | :25:46. | :25:52. | |
easy would it be to hold an independent inquiry, into a culture | :25:52. | :25:55. | |
decades ago? Well, clearly there will be people who have died if it | :25:55. | :25:58. | |
is 40 years ago, but I think the BBC must have records of people | :25:58. | :26:02. | |
that work there, people are coming forward all the time, there are | :26:02. | :26:07. | |
senior management that is still alive, there are lots of people | :26:07. | :26:10. | |
that can talk about the culture and we have seen in the newspaper, day | :26:10. | :26:13. | |
after day after day, people coming forward and giving their own | :26:13. | :26:17. | |
version of events. Now, somebody independent needs to look at those | :26:17. | :26:21. | |
versions of events and see what the truth is. What matters was the | :26:21. | :26:24. | |
evidence that the women gave at the time, when they were not listened | :26:24. | :26:31. | |
to. That is what is at the core of this. Now, talking about decades | :26:31. | :26:35. | |
past, is really very difficult, because if you remarked in those | :26:35. | :26:41. | |
days, to someone who might be your superior in television, I worked in | :26:41. | :26:46. | |
television in the 60ings, you would have a different reaction than | :26:46. | :26:49. | |
today, there was no law about harassment, the feminist movement | :26:49. | :26:56. | |
hadn't taken off. Women were regarded as perhaps not as reliable, | :26:56. | :26:59. | |
so what you could expect from management, and I don't speculate | :26:59. | :27:05. | |
about what they actually did say, but what you might expect was a "Oh | :27:05. | :27:11. | |
well we have looked into it, we have had a word" some sort of | :27:11. | :27:15. | |
remark would be consistent with the nature of discourse at the time | :27:15. | :27:20. | |
about sexual predators. Bringing this up-to-date, that is not just | :27:20. | :27:24. | |
something that goes back 40 years, I am afraid. It is up-to-date. We | :27:24. | :27:27. | |
have the situation with regard to Newsnight and what happened there, | :27:27. | :27:33. | |
there are lots of unanswered questions about that. What are the | :27:33. | :27:37. | |
unanswered questions? There have been denials that any pressure was | :27:38. | :27:44. | |
put on the editor of Newsnight to drop the investigation, relating to | :27:44. | :27:47. | |
Jimmy Savile. And the editor himself has said that. You don't | :27:47. | :27:53. | |
believe them? I think we need to understand clearly who knew what | :27:53. | :27:58. | |
when. About what? The in terms of what the director general knew | :27:58. | :28:01. | |
about Jimmy Savile, because he says he knew absolutely nothing about | :28:01. | :28:06. | |
the terms of what the investigation was about, only they were about | :28:06. | :28:09. | |
Jimmy Savile. The Newsnight investigation? And people within | :28:09. | :28:13. | |
the BBC are suggesting that is, they are sceptical about that point | :28:13. | :28:17. | |
in particular. He would not have known anything about what was going | :28:17. | :28:20. | |
on with Jimmy Savile. In terms of the editorial reasons that were | :28:20. | :28:24. | |
given by the editor of Newsnight who said, you know, there wasn't | :28:25. | :28:29. | |
enough evidence to carry on, he made an editorial decision. There | :28:29. | :28:33. | |
was an allegation that the investigation was changed half way | :28:33. | :28:36. | |
through, to one where it was looking at these issues to do with | :28:36. | :28:40. | |
the women and Jimmy Savile, to an investigation about what the CPS | :28:40. | :28:44. | |
knew and what the weight of evidence was. Now, why was that | :28:44. | :28:48. | |
changed? If it was changed. We need to find out. Programmes get made | :28:48. | :28:53. | |
over a period of time and adjust all their findings, the more they | :28:53. | :28:56. | |
discover and the more evidence they find, and the more they put | :28:56. | :29:03. | |
together, what is going to be a fool-proof legally sound story. And | :29:03. | :29:07. | |
you shift and find out more, a programme gets made by changing its | :29:07. | :29:11. | |
mind all the time. So you are saying the BBC should have nothing | :29:11. | :29:14. | |
to hide. It should publish the scripts and be open and transparent | :29:14. | :29:20. | |
about what happened. I am happy for that to happen. The BBC asence | :29:20. | :29:26. | |
truetion in crisis and has to have a inquiry, without question. Do you | :29:26. | :29:29. | |
agree it should be independent? Are politicians getting to a stage | :29:29. | :29:35. | |
where they are always calling for an independent inquiry. I think the | :29:35. | :29:39. | |
BBC knees to have a BBC inquiry. Think they need to have an | :29:39. | :29:42. | |
independent inquiry. This is their crisis, they need to deal with it | :29:42. | :29:46. | |
and pay for it, but it will come from the license fee payer, because | :29:46. | :29:51. | |
that is where all the BBC's money comes from. Is that well spent.. | :29:51. | :29:56. | |
Yes, if it clears up the BBC. don't think we have the problem | :29:56. | :30:01. | |
today. You not read the papers Joan? I will have to end it on that | :30:01. | :30:05. | |
note. Thank you. Two bits of good news for the Chancellor, it does | :30:05. | :30:08. | |
happen, this morning inflation is down, as we have mentioned, and in | :30:08. | :30:13. | |
the latest redrawing of constituency boundaries his | :30:13. | :30:16. | |
parliamentary seat has been reinstate t. But it has not all | :30:16. | :30:19. | |
gone his way over the last couple of year, in a moment we will talk | :30:20. | :30:24. | |
to the author of a new biography of George Osborne but here he is | :30:24. | :30:34. | |
:30:34. | :30:37. | ||
before the election in 2009, Of our country is facing the | :30:37. | :30:45. | |
largest budget deficit in modern history. We will have no choice but | :30:45. | :30:51. | |
to tackle it decisively if we are to stop interest rates going up and | :30:51. | :30:58. | |
the unemployment that they bring. Yet at the same time, the next | :30:58. | :31:02. | |
Conservative government is determined to leave public services | :31:02. | :31:08. | |
and society stronger than it finds them. Put bluntly, Labour created | :31:08. | :31:15. | |
this mess, and we Conservatives will have to sort it out. | :31:15. | :31:22. | |
The author of a new biography of George Osborne is here now. Picking | :31:22. | :31:26. | |
up on that bit of film, am I right in saying that George Osborne feels | :31:26. | :31:30. | |
that that speech may have cost the Tories the election? A lot of | :31:30. | :31:34. | |
people around him share the same view. Someone I spoke to estimated | :31:34. | :31:38. | |
that perhaps 20 seeds were lost as a result of telegraphing the | :31:38. | :31:42. | |
message of austerity ahead of an election. But George Osborne's view | :31:42. | :31:46. | |
is that had he not warned the electorate of physical pain to come, | :31:46. | :31:50. | |
it would have been impossible to implement austerity in government. | :31:50. | :31:55. | |
It was an amazing revelation, though, to blame yourself in the | :31:55. | :32:00. | |
speech for losing your party 20 seats. His is not amazing if you | :32:00. | :32:04. | |
look at the other half of the calculation, which is that it would | :32:04. | :32:07. | |
have been borderline impossible to govern, had he not sent the message | :32:07. | :32:13. | |
beforehand. The Lib Dems paid a huge price for their admission -- | :32:13. | :32:17. | |
tuition fees U-turn because they had not warned the public about the | :32:17. | :32:25. | |
policy. If you Telegraph a message before an election, and the public | :32:25. | :32:27. | |
are sufficiently grown-up, they will tolerate that message in | :32:27. | :32:31. | |
government. They will not accept a policy which is the opposite of | :32:31. | :32:35. | |
something you said in opposition. The EU have obviously spent a lot | :32:35. | :32:39. | |
of time with him and researching his background. What would you say | :32:40. | :32:46. | |
are his core beliefs? I think it boils down to four things. One is | :32:46. | :32:51. | |
fiscal conservatism. The ones we know less about our education | :32:52. | :32:56. | |
reform. He is a fan of what Michael Gove is doing. Interventionism in | :32:56. | :33:00. | |
foreign policy, which he is a big supporter off, and also cultural | :33:00. | :33:05. | |
liberalism. If you look at his voting record on abortion or gay | :33:05. | :33:09. | |
rights, he is as liberal as almost any member of the House of Commons. | :33:09. | :33:16. | |
And looking at it as a person, what is your view of George Osborne? | :33:16. | :33:20. | |
hope your book goes well, but I think it is a bit soon to start | :33:20. | :33:24. | |
setting out exactly what he is about. I am speaking as someone who | :33:24. | :33:31. | |
is not party to all the background. He strikes me as someone who does | :33:31. | :33:36. | |
not have a strong image. He has a modest way of speaking. He is not a | :33:36. | :33:42. | |
great deliverer of Budget speeches. He is shy of the public platform. | :33:42. | :33:48. | |
So aren't you racing ahead a bit soon? He is Chancellor. The fact | :33:48. | :33:51. | |
that he became Chancellor at that it does not erode the fact that he | :33:51. | :33:54. | |
is Chancellor, the second most powerful person in the country. It | :33:54. | :33:59. | |
would be strange, were then not interest in the book. When I | :33:59. | :34:03. | |
embarked on the process 18 months ago, there were upwards of 10 | :34:03. | :34:07. | |
journalists in the lobby who were either in the process of planning a | :34:07. | :34:11. | |
book or who had similar projects. hope people do want to know the | :34:11. | :34:18. | |
truth about George Osborne. They do, because he is Chancellor. What of | :34:18. | :34:22. | |
the other things that was seen as a game changer for him was in 2007, | :34:22. | :34:30. | |
before he was Chancellor. This was his speech about inheritance tax. | :34:30. | :34:35. | |
The next Conservative Government will raise the inheritance tax | :34:35. | :34:41. | |
threshold to �1 million. That was strategically brilliant, some of | :34:41. | :34:46. | |
his colleagues said at the time. August and September of 2007, there | :34:47. | :34:52. | |
was a very good chance that Gordon Brown would call a snap election. | :34:52. | :34:57. | |
Had he won it, it was possible that David Cameron would have lost his | :34:57. | :35:00. | |
leadership of the Conservative Party. A confluence of events | :35:00. | :35:05. | |
caused him to withdraw from that election. Of those, the most | :35:05. | :35:09. | |
significant was that inheritance tax announcement. Having said that, | :35:09. | :35:14. | |
I am not a huge fan of the policy. It was not far from what Labour | :35:14. | :35:19. | |
presented it as, a tax giveaway to people who did not desperately need | :35:19. | :35:23. | |
one. What did you think of the decision to cut the top rate of | :35:23. | :35:28. | |
income tax? Politically, does George Osborne now think that was a | :35:28. | :35:32. | |
mistake? Had he not cut the top rate of income tax, he thinks that | :35:32. | :35:39. | |
people would be demanded by now. Not on the left, but people on the | :35:40. | :35:44. | |
right and a large part of the centre would be thinking, are we | :35:44. | :35:49. | |
repelling people who create wealth with that cut? I am a bigger fan of | :35:49. | :35:53. | |
cutting income tax than cutting inheritance tax. We should be | :35:53. | :35:56. | |
lowering taxes on earned income and increasing them on entrenched | :35:56. | :36:06. | |
:36:06. | :36:12. | ||
wealth. But the Budget shambles, as it has been labelled, has caused | :36:12. | :36:16. | |
popularity to go down consistently since that point. A mistake and | :36:16. | :36:21. | |
badly delivered? Yes, it was the worst political event of his career. | :36:21. | :36:31. | |
Have he been shaken by it? He has been shaken. But not stirred. | :36:31. | :36:34. | |
not so discombobulated, given the level of criticism he has come | :36:34. | :36:41. | |
under. The strongest characteristic he has is resilience and self- | :36:41. | :36:50. | |
awareness. He knows he is disliked. You have to be a resilient, when | :36:50. | :36:55. | |
you have such an unpopular image. He Brasher's a lot of that aside | :36:55. | :36:59. | |
easily, maybe too easily. What about ambitions for prime minister? | :36:59. | :37:03. | |
Are I don't think he is desperate for the job. Even when he was in a | :37:03. | :37:06. | |
better position to get the job a couple of years ago, when he was | :37:06. | :37:10. | |
more feted than he is now, we in the media exaggerated his interest | :37:10. | :37:15. | |
in the job. We see Osborne and Cameron has parallels for Brown and | :37:15. | :37:22. | |
Blair, and they are not. He is not as intensely ambitious as Gordon | :37:22. | :37:27. | |
Brown was. So breaking news now. Theresa May, the Home Secretary, is | :37:27. | :37:31. | |
blocking the extradition of Gary McKinnon, the computer hacker, to | :37:31. | :37:34. | |
the United States. We will be bringing you much more on that. In | :37:34. | :37:40. | |
the last few minutes, Theresa May, the Home Secretary, has made that | :37:40. | :37:43. | |
decision, under a lot of political pressure, the block the extradition | :37:43. | :37:45. | |
of Gary McKinnon. Now, what would it be like to go | :37:45. | :37:50. | |
straight from university to being a full-time politician? One member of | :37:50. | :37:53. | |
the Northern Ireland Assembly has recently done that. Sinn Fein's | :37:53. | :37:58. | |
Megan Fearon, 21, is the youngest parliamentarian in the UK. Northern | :37:58. | :38:02. | |
Ireland also has the youngest serving lord mayor, Gavin Grabban | :38:02. | :38:07. | |
some of the DUP, who is leading Belfast City Council at the age of | :38:07. | :38:10. | |
27. We spoke to them and asked what impact they are having on political | :38:10. | :38:20. | |
:38:20. | :38:23. | ||
life in the province. Politics here has had a drink from | :38:23. | :38:26. | |
the fountain of youth. The twentysomethings are not just | :38:26. | :38:31. | |
getting involved, they are taking some top jobs. Just a few months | :38:31. | :38:35. | |
ago, a student called Megan Fearon was sitting her finals here at | :38:35. | :38:41. | |
Queen's University. Since then, she has gone from studying politics to | :38:41. | :38:46. | |
being a fully fledged politician. Now she has swapped lectures for | :38:46. | :38:49. | |
legislation and course work for committees. Not only is she the | :38:49. | :38:54. | |
youngest member of the Northern Ireland Assembly, she is also the | :38:54. | :38:58. | |
youngest parliamentarian in the UK. They is a link between school | :38:58. | :39:04. | |
attendance and deprivation. At the age of 21, Megan Fearon was made | :39:04. | :39:09. | |
MLA in June, just before her graduation. I thought about it long | :39:10. | :39:13. | |
and hard, but if you want to make a difference, you have to lead by | :39:13. | :39:19. | |
example. We definitely need more women and young people in politics. | :39:19. | :39:23. | |
I felt I could not be an advocate for that and not attempt to break | :39:23. | :39:29. | |
the glass ceiling myself when the opportunity arose. Good morning, | :39:29. | :39:35. | |
everyone. Me to Gavin Robinson, the DUP's choice to lead Northern | :39:35. | :39:39. | |
Ireland's biggest council. He is still three years of 30. The lord | :39:39. | :39:43. | |
mayor thinks jobs don't get much better than his present one. | :39:43. | :39:48. | |
try to do your bit to help people. It is a satisfying part of my life | :39:48. | :39:53. | |
where you get to engage with people. Being actively involved in that, | :39:53. | :39:59. | |
opening doors where you can, it is very rewarding. But would more | :39:59. | :40:01. | |
senior people consider casting their vote for someone a lot | :40:01. | :40:07. | |
younger? For a young man in their twenties, he does not have a lot of | :40:07. | :40:13. | |
experience. There need fresh blood. If they have the experience, he | :40:13. | :40:18. | |
could do it. Megan Fearon and Gavin Robinson think their voices are | :40:18. | :40:23. | |
valuable. I don't think my life experience is less valid than | :40:23. | :40:29. | |
anyone else's because it is shorter. Everyone has their lives, and the | :40:29. | :40:33. | |
political body should represent that. We have a young population in | :40:33. | :40:38. | |
an off. That should be put across in what we discuss and the issues | :40:38. | :40:45. | |
we raised. I have worked professionally. I have an education | :40:45. | :40:49. | |
as good as it is worth, but I have my own experience and my own | :40:49. | :40:56. | |
reflections. I may only be 27. But I would like to think that my view | :40:56. | :41:02. | |
is as important as that of someone else with 40 years of experience. | :41:02. | :41:06. | |
The they are passionate about promoting young people's interests | :41:06. | :41:13. | |
in the places of power, and a lifetime of political -- time in | :41:13. | :41:16. | |
the political limelight may lie ahead. | :41:16. | :41:21. | |
Palmer and's youngest MP, Pamela Nash, joins us. And the ever so | :41:21. | :41:26. | |
youthful Joan Bakewell is still here. In the generations understand | :41:26. | :41:30. | |
each other? Death and a cliff. It is interesting following that film | :41:31. | :41:35. | |
to look at how many of our young politicians come from Northern | :41:35. | :41:39. | |
Ireland and Scotland. A why is that? There are good run a ships | :41:39. | :41:43. | |
between the generations in the small communities where these | :41:43. | :41:47. | |
politicians come from. Young people are encouraged to speak their mind. | :41:47. | :41:52. | |
Do you think that is true? In 0 and Ireland, they have been up against | :41:52. | :41:59. | |
the realities of life. I think it has been a forcing ground. You are | :41:59. | :42:02. | |
surrounded by the Troubles. You have had to think about the | :42:02. | :42:07. | |
community from an early age. But nowadays, people say the extended | :42:07. | :42:12. | |
family is not such a big part of family life. People move away, and | :42:12. | :42:15. | |
that compact between older and younger generations does not exist | :42:15. | :42:20. | |
to the same extent. I can see that that is the case, but it is | :42:20. | :42:23. | |
wonderful that many of these MPs are not just young, they are women | :42:23. | :42:27. | |
as well. I think the emergence of young people concerned about | :42:27. | :42:31. | |
politics is really overdue. It is terrific that they are coming | :42:31. | :42:34. | |
forward, because the older generations like me have been | :42:34. | :42:40. | |
saying for a long time that we cared so passionately about nuclear | :42:40. | :42:42. | |
disarmament and it all these ideologies of the time. Where are | :42:42. | :42:47. | |
the youngsters who Philp passionate about politics? It is great to see | :42:47. | :42:51. | |
them arriving. What are the passions for young people now? In | :42:51. | :42:55. | |
those days, the ideological differences were clear and people | :42:55. | :42:59. | |
were brought up in a field of protest and debate. It is the big | :42:59. | :43:02. | |
issues that bring young people into politics. Young people are not | :43:03. | :43:06. | |
always good at voting, but they are good at marching in the street and | :43:06. | :43:10. | |
making their voice heard about the issues that matters to them. | :43:10. | :43:15. | |
Unfortunately, a lot of those campaigns in recent years have been | :43:15. | :43:20. | |
things that directly matter to them, about tuition fees and now the | :43:20. | :43:25. | |
housing situation. Young people feel short-changed. Joan, is there | :43:25. | :43:29. | |
a feeling among some of the older politicians at Westminster that | :43:29. | :43:33. | |
people like Pamela might be wet behind the ears, that, to use | :43:33. | :43:37. | |
Ronald Reagan's phrase, I am not going to exploit my opponent for | :43:37. | :43:42. | |
his youth and ex -- inexperience, or are they more expecting -- | :43:42. | :43:47. | |
tolerating? It is different for different generations. Older people | :43:47. | :43:51. | |
are not accepting of the young, they feel threatened by them. They | :43:51. | :43:55. | |
feel that they do not know as much as we do. In some ways, they don't, | :43:55. | :44:00. | |
but they are very much attuned to the generation that matters. It is | :44:00. | :44:05. | |
interesting that the Arab Spring in all those countries across the | :44:05. | :44:09. | |
Middle East is happening in countries where a high popular -- | :44:09. | :44:13. | |
high percentage of the population is under 30. It is important that | :44:13. | :44:18. | |
young people do take a lead and understand that well. We do have an | :44:18. | :44:21. | |
ageing population, but we don't want to isolate the Government with | :44:21. | :44:25. | |
that ageing population. We want to see younger people coming along. | :44:25. | :44:31. | |
Shoot some of the older politicians be pensioned off? I have to defend | :44:31. | :44:34. | |
the more experienced politicians, because ever since I was elected | :44:34. | :44:38. | |
two and a half years ago, there has been nothing but a warm welcome. | :44:38. | :44:41. | |
Most of my colleagues feel that we do need younger people in | :44:41. | :44:46. | |
Parliament to ensure that it is truly representative of society. | :44:46. | :44:50. | |
And that means representatives from all age groups. But isn't there a | :44:50. | :44:57. | |
bit of conflict? There is envy of the baby boomers, who have done so | :44:57. | :45:04. | |
well financially. They have made a lot of money on their houses, they | :45:04. | :45:08. | |
have had index-linked pensions, no tuition fees. There is a lot of | :45:08. | :45:13. | |
anger that somehow, your generation has done better? Won the saddest | :45:13. | :45:16. | |
things I hear as a politician is when a young person tells me on the | :45:16. | :45:20. | |
doorstep that they do not vote because politicians do not listen. | :45:20. | :45:25. | |
That is a reason to vote. If you look at austerity measures, they | :45:25. | :45:28. | |
have hurt young people arguably more than any other group in | :45:28. | :45:32. | |
society, and that is because young people are not using their vote | :45:32. | :45:37. | |
enough, so politicians don't listen. Should pensioners lose their | :45:37. | :45:43. | |
universal benefits? I do believe that. That envy is quite difficult | :45:43. | :45:47. | |
for the younger generations to deal with. People say now it is much | :45:47. | :45:52. | |
tougher to get onto the housing ladder. They are right about that. | :45:52. | :45:57. | |
There are so many older people, and older people vote, so any | :45:58. | :46:02. | |
government is likely to consider the interests of older people when | :46:02. | :46:09. | |
it comes to electioneering. The things that young people care about, | :46:09. | :46:15. | |
climate change, education, the cost of housing, they care about those | :46:15. | :46:25. | |
:46:25. | :46:26. | ||
because it is hitting them hard. Is there a fear among old people of | :46:26. | :46:30. | |
the young? People will remember those unfortunate pictures of the | :46:30. | :46:34. | |
rioting that went on in London, you know, for whatever reason, and is | :46:34. | :46:39. | |
that the sort of thing that affects older people in their views of the | :46:39. | :46:44. | |
young? I I wish you wouldn't regard me as representative of all older | :46:44. | :46:49. | |
people! I do think it is important that the old listen to the young. I | :46:49. | :46:52. | |
went to the St Paul's occupy movement a couple of times, just to | :46:52. | :46:55. | |
talk to people and just to meet people, they were very welcoming | :46:55. | :46:59. | |
and they were very pleased to explain to me why they were there | :46:59. | :47:03. | |
and what they hoped. Very often testify naive and in my judgment, | :47:03. | :47:07. | |
they weren't as wise, as I thought I was. But the point was they | :47:07. | :47:14. | |
wanted to talk, and they were concerned. And we mustn't neglect | :47:14. | :47:19. | |
that. Pamela Nash, good luck. While we have been on air the Home | :47:19. | :47:22. | |
Secretary Theresa May has announced her decision on whether the | :47:22. | :47:25. | |
computer Hacker Gary McKinnon should be extradited to the United | :47:25. | :47:32. | |
States. Mr McKinnon who has a sporm of autism is accused of hacking US | :47:32. | :47:35. | |
Government computers. Since I came into office the sole issue on which | :47:35. | :47:41. | |
I have been required to make a decision is whether gark's | :47:41. | :47:45. | |
extradition to the US would breach his human rites, he is accused of | :47:45. | :47:50. | |
serious crime, but there is also no doubt he seriously ill, he has | :47:50. | :47:53. | |
Asperger's Syndrome and suffers from depressive illness. The legal | :47:54. | :47:58. | |
question before me is now whether the extent of that illness is | :47:58. | :48:04. | |
sufficient to preclude extradition. As the House would expect, I have | :48:04. | :48:08. | |
carefully considered the representations made on his behalf. | :48:08. | :48:12. | |
Including from a number ofically in addition, I have obtained my own | :48:12. | :48:16. | |
medical advice from practitioners recommended to me, and I have taken | :48:16. | :48:20. | |
extensive legal advice. After careful consideration, of all of | :48:20. | :48:25. | |
the relevant material, I have concluded that Mr McKinnon's | :48:25. | :48:30. | |
extradition would give rise to such a high risk of him ending his | :48:30. | :48:34. | |
life... That a decision to extradite would be incompatible | :48:34. | :48:39. | |
with his human rights. I have therefore withdrawn the extradition | :48:39. | :48:47. | |
order against Mr McKinnon. It will now be for the Director of Public | :48:47. | :48:51. | |
Prosecutions to decide whether he has a case to answer in a UK court. | :48:51. | :48:54. | |
Theresa May. Let us get more on this with our political | :48:54. | :48:58. | |
correspondent Carole Walker. She made that announcement to cheers in | :48:58. | :49:02. | |
the House, so a popular decision there and clearly with gark's | :49:02. | :49:07. | |
family. She acted on the medical advice that was given to her, it is | :49:07. | :49:11. | |
a significant decision. It S I am sure one that will be greeted with | :49:11. | :49:15. | |
a huge amount of relief by his family, and other campaigners who | :49:15. | :49:19. | |
have argued for a long time that Gary McKinnon was a computer nerd, | :49:19. | :49:26. | |
a geek who was looking for UFOs and was not trying to hack into | :49:26. | :49:29. | |
sensitive material in the United States. The American authorities | :49:29. | :49:34. | |
took a very different case, of course. They said that he had | :49:34. | :49:37. | |
actually done damage to very sensitive files, and they very much | :49:37. | :49:42. | |
wanted to put him on trial there in the United States. They had argued | :49:42. | :49:47. | |
very strongly that because of his history of mental illness, and | :49:47. | :49:51. | |
because of his Asperger's Syndrome, his state of mind, that there was a | :49:51. | :49:55. | |
very strong likelihood that he would commit suicide if he was | :49:55. | :49:59. | |
extradited, and Theresa May announced today that having looked | :49:59. | :50:05. | |
at the medical advice, and also the expert legal opinion, in this case | :50:05. | :50:10. | |
where she has a quasi-judicial role, she is acting in a separate legal | :50:10. | :50:14. | |
capacity, she feels it is right to block the extradition, because she | :50:14. | :50:18. | |
believed there was a high risk he could take his own life, and that | :50:18. | :50:23. | |
is a fundamental breach of human rites. Now, that obviously is a | :50:23. | :50:26. | |
specific case, but Theresa May has also been talking more broadly | :50:26. | :50:30. | |
about the extradition system, about the treaty that was signed between | :50:30. | :50:37. | |
the US and UK. What has she said about that? Several significant | :50:37. | :50:40. | |
changes, the first thing she has introduced something called the | :50:40. | :50:46. | |
forum bar, and what this means is when there is a case which involves | :50:46. | :50:51. | |
a crime which perhaps covers UK soil, and foreign tertri, as in the | :50:51. | :50:55. | |
case we have just been talking about, there will have to be a | :50:55. | :50:59. | |
hearing in a British court, for a British court to decide if there is | :50:59. | :51:03. | |
suitable ground for an extradition hearing to go ahead. So it will | :51:03. | :51:09. | |
mean a British court will in the first instance decide whether that | :51:09. | :51:12. | |
individual should be tried here in the UK. Now, Shetland went on the | :51:12. | :51:17. | |
say she accepted -- she went on to say she accepted the findings of a | :51:17. | :51:22. | |
review she has commissioned, there was no imbalance between Britain | :51:22. | :51:27. | |
and the US, on this. But she also introduced another change, which | :51:27. | :51:32. | |
means that in future where there are appeals, like the one we have | :51:32. | :51:37. | |
been hearing about, where people say extra dit would harm their | :51:37. | :51:41. | |
human rite, that would be decided by the high court not the Home | :51:41. | :51:46. | |
Secretary. Thank you. Joan Bakewell you welcome this? I welcome it. She | :51:46. | :51:51. | |
has done her image a good turn, she will be seen as having made a | :51:51. | :51:54. | |
thoughtful an to some extent generous decision, so I think it | :51:54. | :51:57. | |
will be welcomed. I am interested in the other changes that are | :51:57. | :52:02. | |
coming about, and I think that will go on being debated and subject to | :52:02. | :52:06. | |
scrutiny for some time. That is good too. All right. Well, it is | :52:06. | :52:11. | |
nearly 50 year since the world teetered on the edge of the nuclear | :52:11. | :52:14. | |
abyss. The Cuban Missile Crisis in October 1962 was the high water | :52:14. | :52:20. | |
mark of ten stwhiens the USA and the Soviet Union. The point at | :52:20. | :52:23. | |
which the Cold War almost became a hot war. In a moment we will talk | :52:24. | :52:28. | |
to a historian about Britain's role at the time let us remind ourself | :52:28. | :52:35. | |
of the event. To Guantanamo US base on Cuba, the Americans send strong | :52:35. | :52:39. | |
reinforcement of marines. Meanwhile, the naval blockade against Russian | :52:39. | :52:43. | |
and satellite ships nearing Cuba was put into effect. At the White | :52:43. | :52:46. | |
House, making the announcement to the waiting world, Mr Kennedy said | :52:46. | :52:54. | |
that only a few days before, he was assured that Russia has put no | :52:54. | :52:57. | |
rockets on Cuba. Photographic proof to the contrary was soon in the | :52:57. | :53:04. | |
President's hand. What kind of rock t? The moss kai Mayday parade had | :53:04. | :53:10. | |
featured. So they were pointing at American cities. Powerful stuff, | :53:10. | :53:14. | |
joining me is the historian Peter shen si who has written numerous | :53:14. | :53:19. | |
books about Britain in the Cold War. It seems to me, that the world held | :53:19. | :53:25. | |
its breath for those tense days during the escalation of events. | :53:25. | :53:31. | |
They did. It's the chosest we have come to it happening, thermonuclear | :53:31. | :53:34. | |
exchange, global war, but it was a closer run thing than we realised | :53:34. | :53:38. | |
if the time. If Kennedy had known there were warhead already on Cuba, | :53:38. | :53:42. | |
Russian one, and that the local Russian commander had the final say | :53:42. | :53:47. | |
on whether they were launched on an invading American ary it would have | :53:47. | :53:51. | |
made the calculations different. Ten years ago Russian submariner, I | :53:51. | :53:56. | |
wasn't there, told a conference on Cuba they were stuck on their | :53:56. | :54:00. | |
diesel submarine, with a nuclear torpedo on, the United States navy | :54:00. | :54:04. | |
keeping them down. They can't clean their air, the temperature was | :54:04. | :54:10. | |
rising, they could hardly breathe and the captain liezs it. He was | :54:11. | :54:15. | |
overruled by his number two and the political officer, now if that | :54:15. | :54:19. | |
nuclear torpedo had been launched that would have been it. It is | :54:19. | :54:25. | |
amazing really, that it didn't happen. I mean. It was unbearable. | :54:25. | :54:29. | |
What was it like at the time? thought the world would end. It was | :54:29. | :54:35. | |
as close as close as you can be and not have nuclear war. We would go, | :54:35. | :54:39. | |
we would leave work, in the evening and say, see you tomorrow, if we | :54:39. | :54:43. | |
are still here, and people would go, yes, let's hope, let's hope, but | :54:43. | :54:48. | |
people walked round expecting a flash in the sky, and the end of | :54:48. | :54:53. | |
the world. I mean it was absolutely expected. Widely expected, and | :54:53. | :54:57. | |
there was nothing to do but hold your breath. You could not do | :54:58. | :55:04. | |
anything. You couldn't march. You couldn't protest. I went for a walk | :55:04. | :55:08. | |
in the Black Mountain, we set off on the Sunday, October 27th | :55:08. | :55:12. | |
thinking we might not come back tonight but what a place to go. We | :55:12. | :55:22. | |
found Mr Khrushchev had stood down when we got back. I found a | :55:22. | :55:26. | |
document that looked at war, and they said it could arise if one | :55:26. | :55:30. | |
side or the other behaved in such a way it was intolerable to the other | :55:30. | :55:33. | |
side and they hadn't realised it would be or if they involved a | :55:33. | :55:37. | |
third party, with whom they were associated outside of the Soviet | :55:37. | :55:45. | |
bloc. Then it says Cuba. So British intelligence... How did they know? | :55:45. | :55:48. | |
They were looking at the general circumstances where it might get | :55:48. | :55:54. | |
out of control. The stalemate was you couldn't lift a muscle. One | :55:54. | :56:00. | |
side would think we will try it on, just try and get a bit of advantage, | :56:00. | :56:03. | |
then it would unravel rapidly and British intelligence which is | :56:03. | :56:07. | |
usually very criticised was spot on. They didn't say it was coming in | :56:07. | :56:12. | |
October, because it didn't, but thaw foresaw the events that could | :56:12. | :56:17. | |
produce it. What did they do in order to prepare for that outcome? | :56:17. | :56:23. | |
Was there panic and preparation in Whitehall? There was a lady called | :56:23. | :56:28. | |
Beryl who produced for many year, but she was known as the Queen of | :56:28. | :56:33. | |
the war book. She would come in from south London, auntie Beryl as | :56:33. | :56:36. | |
she was called. She Washington National Symphony Orchestra out the | :56:36. | :56:43. | |
drills for the end of the world, the... What a role to have? | :56:43. | :56:49. | |
every capital there would have been a Mrs Beryl. These are declassified | :56:49. | :56:53. | |
now, these war tpwhie, are extraordinary, for our generation, | :56:53. | :57:00. | |
Joan you go into those and you look over the abyss. Because Because the | :57:00. | :57:04. | |
thought of another World War... sears your mind. You look, I have | :57:04. | :57:08. | |
just come back from a visit to Hiroshima, there was a global with | :57:08. | :57:12. | |
all the existing warheads, nuclear warheads on the planet, and there | :57:12. | :57:16. | |
are thousands of them. And I just looked at that and thought they | :57:16. | :57:22. | |
haven't been to Hiroshima. It just gives you pause, and makes you | :57:22. | :57:26. | |
realise that nuclear disarmament must go on negotiations have to | :57:26. | :57:31. | |
continue, because the world is bristling with it. It is more | :57:31. | :57:35. | |
precarious now because of the proliferation, but the greatest | :57:35. | :57:41. | |
shared Boon of our lifetime is that the Cold War ended the way it did, | :57:41. | :57:45. | |
without general wa, it trumps everything else. A deal was done in | :57:45. | :57:50. | |
the end. They wouldn't invade.... What happened... They wouldn't | :57:50. | :57:56. | |
invade Cuba. And they would, if Mr Khrushchev removed the missiles | :57:56. | :58:00. | |
they would remove the NATO missiles from Turkey, so there was a back | :58:00. | :58:04. | |
channel in Washington. The doeld war ending is miraculous, it is | :58:04. | :58:08. | |
breathtaking for me, the most I could hope for, when I was growing | :58:08. | :58:15. | |
up, was an an American am bas for do to London called it the cheaper | :58:15. | :58:20. | |
form of deadlock. It is nice we don't live under that shadow any | :58:20. | :58:24. | |
more. It is not right to discount it and say we will pocket that bit | :58:24. | :58:29. | |
I took the most extraordinary set of circumstances. A lot of simply | :58:29. | :58:34. | |
good luck, because people were speaking of, we have no alternative | :58:34. | :58:39. | |
to total destruction. OK. I will have to stop you there. The Berlin | :58:39. | :58:43. | |
wall had no idea it was going to happen. Thanks to my guest, | :58:43. | :58:48. | |
particularly to Joan Bakewell for being my guest of the day. The one | :58:48. | :58:53. |