22/10/2012 Daily Politics


22/10/2012

Jo Coburn with all the latest political news. Including Justine Roberts from Mumsnet on plans to reform parental leave, and the Prime Minister's proposals on prison sentencing.


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LineFromTo

Afternoon, folks, welcome to the Daily Politics.

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In an attempt to seize back the political initiative, the Prime

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Minister gets tough on crime. After all, what else would you do? In a

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speech this lunchtime, the PM's expected to call for tougher

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sentences for the worst criminals and rehabilitation and education

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for others to cut reoffending. Crisis at the BBC over the Jimmy

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Savile affair. The BBC's Director General appears before MPs tomorrow.

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We'll be talking to the man charged with grilling him.

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Should men and women share parental leave after having a baby? I do not

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promise... BOOING.

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And we'll be asking if Ed Milliband was secretly pleased to get this

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reaction to his speech at this All that in the next hour. And with

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us for the whole programme today is Justine Roberts from Mumsnet.

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Welcome. First this morning, let's talk about child benefit because

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the Government has been warned that it may have left it too late to

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implement the cut to child benefit. The Institute of Chartered

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Accountants for England and Wales said yesterday that most middle

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class families remained unaware of the changes, which will require

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about half a million people filling out complicated self assessment

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forms for the first time. Have you found that with your followers? Are

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they counting down the weeks to the time they will get a reduced child

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benefit or none at all? I think they are aware because it has been

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a big issue, but I don't think people know they have tefillin more

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forms or how to do that. A lot of people have never had to fill in

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that type of form before. They will be coming on line and asking what's

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next? I think there are people who might not realise that this is

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actually going to be done through the tax system by HMRC, it is not

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that the Inland Revenue as we used to know it is going to cut your

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child benefit... We each would be the natural assumption. You might

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still get it and then it will be clawed back. Yes. That sounds very

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complicated. It does and it is the last thing anyone needs, to have to

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battle with more forms from the HMRC, which is not the most user-

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friendly organisation anyway. It sounds like a nightmare for a lot

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of people. But in no side whether or not a policy is clever or fair,

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the very fact that you are increasing bureaucracy is the one

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thing that... Are there people still very upset about the changes

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themselves? In the end, you could get a couple earning under the

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threshold who will still get child benefit and one single earner who

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earns above it he will not. Exactly. I think they are fair -- cross

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about the unfairness. It is hard to argue that millionaires should get

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child benefit. A lot of people can understand why the Government would

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want to reduce it, but they have done it in an unfair way and people

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are cross about the effect it as one single learning households and

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lone parents relative to a neighbour where they have more

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income but they still receive the benefit. For 11 weeks to go until

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those changes take effect. Tomorrow morning, the BBC Director

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General, George Entwhistle, will appear in front of the Culture,

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Media and Sport Select Committee to answer MPs' questions on what the

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BBC knew about Jimmy Savile. Tonight, a special one-hour

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Panorama will look at how and why a Newsnight investigation into

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allegations against Jimmy Savile was dropped before broadcast. The

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programme includes interviews with the Newsnight journalists who

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worked on the original Savile investigation. Ever since the

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decision was taken at Tibshelf Alan Storey, I've not been happy with

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public statements made by the BBC. I think they are very misleading

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about the nature of the investigation we were doing. It was

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an abrupt change of tone from one- day excellent, let's prepare to get

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this thing on air, to hold on. was sure the story would come out

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one way or another and if it did, the BBC would be accused of a

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cover-up. I wrote an e-mail to Peter saying, the story is strong

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enough and the danger of not running it is substantial damage to

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BBC reputation. In the last hour, the Newsnight

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editor Peter Rippon has stood down from his role for the duration of

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the independent Pollard review into whether there were any failings in

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the BBC's management of the investigation. Let's get more on

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this with the media commentator Steve Hewlett, who's at New

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Broadcasting House. Has Peter Rippon done the right thing?

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don't think... There was no other option. The blog he wrote a couple

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of weeks ago outlining the reasons for his decision to stop the

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Newsnight programme, remember the essential course of events is that

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Jimmy Savile dies at the end of October, a busy one announces

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tribute programmes for its Christmas schedule, up pops

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Newsnight with a suggestion that Savell may have been a paedophile.

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The Newsnight programme then gets cancelled. People say hang on, is

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there any danger that one bit of the BBC Cross infect another? If it

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were true, that the BBC corporate interests overrode its journalism,

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that would be a disaster. That is the reason there is this concern.

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Peter Ripon was under pressure to explain why he dropped the

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programme. His explanation is at best a partial and the BBC have now

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acknowledged it is incomplete and incorrect in important respects and

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as a result there is no question he had to stand aside. It now seems

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that some of the details of the reasons, not all of them, for

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dropping the investigation are now said to be inaccurate. How does

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that change things ahead of George Entwhistle's appearance before the

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committee? It makes the BBC seemed more of a muddle. We have people

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rich using themselves from these decisions. The Director General is

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no longer Director General for this, Tim Davey. The whole thing appears

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Mugly chaotic. Secondly, the Director General, the director of

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editorial policy and the chairman of the BBC Trust have been on the

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airwaves and said that this was never any inquiry into Jimmy Savile

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per se, it was an inquiry into a police investigation and the

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subsequent decision by the CPS not to proceed. The journalists said

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that was ridiculous. Our story was, was Jimmy Savile a paedophile?

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Female trail that Panorama has got demonstrates that in spades. -- the

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Demel trail. It also demonstrates that Peter Ripon on 25th November

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said fantastic, full speed ahead, and a few days later says stop, we

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must concentrate on the CPS decision. It looks like a handbrake

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turn. What that represents is another question. Is that the

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problem at the moment? Fears an awful lot of speculation. Peter

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Ripon has made his dishes and to set aside, but we haven't had any

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results of the review, we haven't heard from George Entwhistle.

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Shouldn't we just break and wait until we know for sure what went

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on? Yes and no. There are two questions. One is what actually

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happened, and we will have to wait for the review to find that out.

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The other is what the BBC has said. What is so common, the BBC have

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made a rod for their own backs by issuing statements which are

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partial or borderline misleading and they have taken their lead from

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Peter Ripon's blog. It is important for the BBC to establish

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credibility. The first thing George Entwistle will have to convince the

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MPs of is that he has some grip of the situation. At the moment it

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looks mildly chaotic. If thank you. With us now is the chair of the

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Culture, Media and Sport Select Committee, John Whitingdale, the

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former Culture Secretary, Ben Bradshaw, who also used to work for

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the BBC, and the former editor of the Today programme, Kevin Marsh.

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John Whittingdale, is that what you go to ask him, has he got a grip?

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That is certainly one of the questions. Steve is right, the

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handling of this by the BBC has been lamentable. They've made a bad

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situation even worse and the Director General is responsible. We

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would want to press him on that. What about his role? What are you

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going to press him on in terms of what he knew ahead of the tributes

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being played in his former role at this news that investigation?

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of the things that Panorama has uncovered is a conversation took

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place between Helen Boaden and George Entwistle where Helen said

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hold on a minute with regard to these tributes, you might need to

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re schedule because Newsnight uttering an investigation. This was

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a conversation that lasted less than 10 seconds. It seems

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extraordinary that given George Entwhistle was told that, he didn't

:10:09.:10:14.

want to know more. Do you not think George Entwistle will not be able

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to be as frank as he might have been because of the review that is

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now being carried out by Nick Pollard? I don't know that that

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review is looking into that question. It is looking into why

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Newsnight was dropped. I'm not aware that it is looking at whether

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or not George Entwistle knew about it, whether Mark Thompson knew

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about it, Helen Boaden. Bradshaw, let's pick up on the

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conversation, do you think there was adequate due diligence, that

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briefest of conversations between Helen Boaden and George Entwistle?

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We don't know, but to be fair to George Entwhistle, when he says he

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wanted to maintain a Berlin Wall between his responsibilities and

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the news but if the BBC, that is credible. What is incredible is why

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it has taken three weeks for the BBC to realise that Peter Ripon's

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account of the dropping of the Newsnight programme was inaccurate

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and incomplete. That astonishes me. Why was nobody talking to the

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journalists? Why was nobody asking the reporter and the investigative

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producer for their side of the story? George Entwhistle and at BBC

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have repeated his position which we now know to have been wrong.

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did it take so long? Do you agree that it took too long? I don't know

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what conversations went on about this investigation. Presumably the

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Pollard inquiry will find that out. I do believe that Peter Ripon gave

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an account that he thought was truthful of the reason for him

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dropping... We now know that some of that data was inaccurate.

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have to be very careful. E-mails can be taken out of context. Once

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you take them out of context and apply hindsight, they can mean

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something different. I don't know how much of this Peter Ripon was

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aware of at the time. I don't know how much his investigative team

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were telling him. We have to wait for the inquiry to look at not only

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the case for the prosecution, which is what we will see on Panorama,

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but also the case for the defence. With all respect to the BBC

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management, they've made their position clear. They seem to be

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either wrong in some cases or misleading because of what we are

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now hearing from journalists on the programme. I don't think anything

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was done in bad faith. I think people thought this was the account

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of the investigation, they believed in it. The Director General turns

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to the head of news and ask what happened. It is inevitable that the

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account will be consistent. Now that these details have come out,

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those details have to change. Peter Ripon right to step aside?

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the light of this, of course he was. We have to wait for the inquiry, to

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look at both sides of this question. Did he make the wrong editorial

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decision in terms of dropping that investigation? I don't know the

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detail, but no editor of news eyedrops an investigation unless

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they has -- have severe doubts about the evidence. You shouldn't

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go ahead with an investigation, particularly one making serious

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allegations, unless you have a watertight case, would you agree?

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But if you have an investigation by two very experienced and reputable

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journalists, who now claim it was almost ready for transmission,

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about a former BBC personality against whom the most grave

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accusations are being made, any editor worth his salt goes the

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extra mile to make sure that programme gets on air and if they

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can't in the current form, they say get more evidence. You would

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support that, Kevin Marsh? If you had even has into -- scintilla of

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an allegation or claim, in this sort of investigation, you don't

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say you've hit a brick wall, you carry on. A you want your team to

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go back and look at new evidence. What appears to have happened was

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that when Peter Ripon said I'm interested in this CPS line that

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the investigation was dropped, can we stand this up? The team came

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back and said no. That was when his enthusiasm faded. But the CPS are

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never going to say publicly that the reason they didn't prosecute is

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because somebody is too old. That was just an excuse according to the

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reporter. They felt they were being set a bar that was impossible to

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jump over. One of the supporting victims, who was very brave to go

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on air at all, said she had a letter from Surrey police, the team

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asked her for this letter, the letter wasn't produced. In any

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editor's mind, that will ring alarm bells. The why was the

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investigation killed? There was a wealth of evidence and even more is

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emerging. Because the investigation was dropped without the team being

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told to dig further and uncover more, that leaves the suspicion

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that there must have been another reason. I hope that is not the case,

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I'm prepared to Accept Peter Rippon was not lend on, but because the

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explanation looks so thin... Panorama can uncover no evidence of

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that. There's another complication. Newsnight comes off there for

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Christmas and therefore the investigation would have had to be

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picked up after Christmas. There's another aspect. I was very often

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running an investigative team and I would say I don't think this stacks

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up, and they would offer the material they had to another

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programme. If this investigative team was so convinced about the

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material, and Peter was so convinced he could not run it, I am

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puzzled as to why that material wasn't passed somewhere else.

:16:02.:16:12.
:16:12.:16:16.

$:STARTFEED. You but the team, the reporter Liz McKean said about what

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she thought was going on that Peter Rippon said, "If the bosses aren't

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happy, he can't go to the wall on this one." That's her saying what

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she she thought. That's not what Peter Rippon said. The allegation

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is that somehow there might have been pressure put on or it might

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not have fitted with what the BBC wanted to do.

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If the allegation is that Peter Rippon was overr over cautious, he

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would plead guilty. BBC editors are cautious. They demand a high

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standard of proof. Think we can we can overinterpret this, you take a

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conversation out of context and you can make it mean something

:16:59.:17:05.

different. Are you can have Are you confident

:17:05.:17:09.

that Peter Rippon wasn't lent on? Every BBC editor I know. If one

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said, "You can't run this because it would embarrass us it." They

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would get it on tomorrow. I have worked for some editors who

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don't need to be lent on because they think they know what the boss

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class what. It is a plausible explanation and a catastrophic

:17:32.:17:37.

misjudgement. John Simpson, one of the BBC's

:17:37.:17:44.

correspondents says it is the BBC's biggest crisis in 50 years. Is that

:17:44.:17:54.
:17:54.:17:56.

an exaggeration? There was one crisis that led to the resignation

:17:56.:18:02.

of the Director General and the chairman.

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This is feeding those people who want to make that claim. That's why

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it is important that we deal with this quickly and establish that

:18:11.:18:17.

there was no improper interference. There is an issue in terms of trust

:18:17.:18:21.

and integrity. The essence of being an editor and running an

:18:21.:18:25.

organisation like this is we have to have people's trust? As a BBC

:18:25.:18:30.

editor, it is there over your shoulder all the time. You know you

:18:30.:18:37.

are carrying a heavy burden. I agree with John Whittingdale, it is

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about child abuse and about celebrity and about the BBC and

:18:40.:18:45.

about institutions, this has the potential to be even more damaging

:18:45.:18:48.

certainly than Hutton which was about politics. This touches on

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what people care about. Justine, do you care about it?

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and it is good that we are having wit I think deal's inquiry and --

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Whittingdale's inquiry. This come as a result of Panorama and

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Panorama being a BBC organisation and the journalists within it

:19:06.:19:12.

speaking up and speaking out clearly. So, you know, it is not

:19:12.:19:16.

all bad, but we need answers and we need to regain the trust.

:19:16.:19:22.

The handling may not have been up to the mark, but can the BBC regain

:19:22.:19:26.

it's... The fact that they have admitted after three weeks the

:19:26.:19:29.

original statement was wrong and they have suspended Peter Rippon is

:19:29.:19:33.

a start. They need to act quickly and clearly. Get to the facts. Get

:19:33.:19:38.

them out there and apologise for the original decision. This doesn't

:19:38.:19:42.

need to be another Hutton. But they need to act quickly and decisively

:19:42.:19:46.

to make sure it is not. Are you going to get, do you think,

:19:46.:19:49.

clear answers tomorrow that could in a way sort out what has

:19:49.:19:55.

happened? No, we won't because George will say, "Look, I have

:19:55.:19:58.

established an independent inquiry.". You said that you are

:19:58.:20:03.

you are asking about two different things? There are other areas where

:20:03.:20:06.

George does need to provide reassurance. We will be pressing

:20:06.:20:11.

him on those matters and when we see the result of the Pollard

:20:11.:20:14.

Inquiry, if we remain of the view there are questions to answer, we

:20:14.:20:17.

will have back the Director-General and possibly others as well.

:20:17.:20:21.

Ben, do you think George Entwistle should be worried about his

:20:21.:20:24.

position? I don't know because we don't know the facts. What I do

:20:24.:20:29.

know of colleagues and friends at the BBC is that he is a very

:20:29.:20:34.

descent man. He was a brilliant editor at Newsnight in Newsnight's

:20:34.:20:38.

heyday and I thought he was an excellent appointment for Director-

:20:38.:20:44.

General, but he needs to acquickly and -- act quickly and decisively

:20:45.:20:50.

over this. Should 16 and 17-year-olds vote? A

:20:50.:20:53.

cross-bench of peers think that is the Government should be looking at

:20:53.:20:59.

the matter and are introducing a Private Members' Bill today. Lord

:20:59.:21:04.

Adonis joins us now. Why should they be given the vote? As you know,

:21:04.:21:08.

the Scots have decided that 16 and 17-year-olds will have a vote in

:21:08.:21:13.

the referendum that will take place on Scottish independence in two

:21:13.:21:16.

years time. If it is good enough for 16 and 17-year-olds in Scotland

:21:16.:21:21.

to have a vote on the future of their nation, then there is every

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reason why they should have the vote in local and Parliamentary

:21:24.:21:29.

elections too. This is starting to become internationally normal.

:21:29.:21:33.

Brazil, Austria, within Great Britain, the Isle of Man as well as

:21:33.:21:36.

Scotland give the vote to 16 and 17-year-olds. 16 and 17-year-olds

:21:36.:21:40.

play a a responsible part in our society. It is right they should

:21:40.:21:43.

play a part in determining who governs them.

:21:43.:21:47.

Have you always thought this? I don't know. Is this something you

:21:47.:21:51.

have come to recently or the decision in Scotland made you think

:21:51.:21:56.

this is the way to go or are you a new convert? I supported votes for

:21:56.:21:59.

16 and 17-year-old for a long time. Indeed, the book I published this

:21:59.:22:02.

year, I proposed it. I didn't see that.

:22:02.:22:06.

There is no reason why you should have read T but the fact that the

:22:06.:22:11.

Scots are going to do this in two years time, gives it added urgency

:22:11.:22:14.

and there will be a sense of grievance on the part of 16 and 17-

:22:14.:22:17.

year-olds elsewhere in the country that Scots are allowed to vote and

:22:17.:22:23.

they're not. Can I make porn another important? -- important

:22:23.:22:27.

point? Too few of them vote and take an interest in politics. My

:22:27.:22:32.

view is the way that you get them engaged in politics is to give them

:22:32.:22:38.

real political responsibility while at school and college. We have

:22:38.:22:42.

citizenship education in our schools, but it is not regarded as

:22:42.:22:48.

real. The politicians don't take it seriously and they don't visit the

:22:48.:22:51.

sixth-formers because they don't have votes. If you gave the six

:22:51.:22:56.

formers a vote and had a polling station in every school and every

:22:56.:22:59.

further education college, this would really make politics a

:22:59.:23:04.

serious business. You said engaging... That and that

:23:04.:23:09.

would help engage them more. Don't the polls indicate that 18 to 24-

:23:09.:23:13.

year-olds who have the vote don't exercise it in vast numbers anyway?

:23:13.:23:18.

Well, nearly half of them vote. We have a a problem about people

:23:18.:23:24.

voting at large. The answer is to embed citizenship education at the

:23:24.:23:29.

core of what pupils do so mock elections which have been a

:23:29.:23:32.

practise in our schools lead to real election for the sixth-formers

:23:32.:23:37.

and those at college. If that were the case, citizenship education

:23:37.:23:40.

would be treated with more seriousness than at the moment and

:23:40.:23:43.

the politicians would take it seriously by visiting schools and

:23:43.:23:48.

and engaging with the young people because they would have votes.

:23:48.:23:54.

We will be calling you up to visit schools. I am happy to that.

:23:54.:23:59.

Do you think that 16 is too young? They have made this exception for

:23:59.:24:03.

the Scottish referendum. It maybe difficult to try and withdraw it

:24:03.:24:07.

from other elections, but are 16- year-olds ready to exercise that

:24:07.:24:11.

big responsibility? Well, I think rationally it is hard to argue

:24:11.:24:15.

against 16-year-olds getting the vote. There is a lot of users on

:24:15.:24:18.

our website say they can get married and have children and have

:24:18.:24:24.

a flat. Not letting them vote seems odd. My concern is I can see a

:24:24.:24:30.

stage where there are 16-year-old policy designed to get the 16-year-

:24:30.:24:35.

old vote and we will have easier exams and cheap video games and all

:24:35.:24:42.

the rest of it! That would be awful to have attention focused on things

:24:42.:24:46.

which are narrowly defined for a small group of people, but I can

:24:46.:24:54.

see it coming, but actually my head says and the users on on mumsnet

:24:54.:24:57.

says it is madness because we give them responsibility in other areas

:24:57.:25:00.

and by 16 and 17 you have grown up now.

:25:00.:25:03.

Thank you very much. Should men and women share the

:25:04.:25:08.

leave that they take off work after the birth of their baby? The

:25:08.:25:11.

Government has consulted on the idea of sharing parental leave, but

:25:11.:25:14.

it is yet to outline its plans, but some businesses are concerned that

:25:14.:25:24.
:25:24.:25:28.

such a move could lead to more red Play time at Mandy's house. She is

:25:28.:25:35.

a mum of four who works part-time for a website that offers women at

:25:35.:25:41.

women advice. She is in favour of more flexible rules that could see

:25:41.:25:46.

dads taking more time off. In my last pregnancy, it would have been

:25:46.:25:51.

brilliant because I didn't get much paternity pay because I was only

:25:51.:25:56.

doing a part-time job and I am the main breadwinner in the family so I

:25:56.:25:59.

had to take that time off and when I could have could have been

:25:59.:26:04.

earning. If my partner had taken the time off, I could have earned,

:26:04.:26:10.

I could have kept my wages coming Women get 39 weeks of paid

:26:10.:26:16.

maternity leave and men get two weeks paid leave. The coalition

:26:16.:26:21.

Government is committed to a form of leave where men and women could

:26:21.:26:25.

share the leave. That was one of the pledges made in the the

:26:25.:26:28.

coalition agreement and the Government carried out a

:26:28.:26:33.

consultation that outlined plans to give women 18 weeks paid leave. It

:26:33.:26:38.

suggested that both parents should share a further 30 weeks of leave,

:26:38.:26:42.

17 of which would be paid. It said that each parent should be entitled

:26:42.:26:46.

to four weeks of parental leave and pay in the first year of their

:26:46.:26:49.

child's life. The Government is expected to set out its plans for

:26:49.:26:56.

parental leave soon and the left leaning think-tank IPRR says they

:26:56.:27:01.

are moving in the right direction. It is the right way to be going.

:27:01.:27:10.

Our Research has shown a parental leave agenda doesn't need to cost

:27:10.:27:14.

more. They could allow better choices for mums and dads in the

:27:14.:27:16.

way they want to bring up their children.

:27:16.:27:21.

What about the impact on small businesses? This accountancy firm

:27:21.:27:26.

employs eight people. One of whom is soon to go on maternity leave.

:27:26.:27:29.

The boss says you can plan for that, but the prospect of parents taking

:27:29.:27:32.

their parental leave in chunks would be a problem.

:27:32.:27:38.

As a services business each person is critical to the business. So we

:27:38.:27:42.

are planning well in advance for the next person about to go for

:27:42.:27:47.

maternity leave and that's fine if we know they are going to be going

:27:47.:27:50.

approximately eight or nine months. If they were going three months off,

:27:50.:27:58.

three months on, it does get more complicated to work out the komp.

:27:58.:28:01.

-- cover. Could the plans be business

:28:01.:28:06.

friendly and family-friendly at the same time?

:28:06.:28:11.

Can we really afford the changes? All the evidence shows actually

:28:12.:28:15.

that offering flexibility to your workforce increases productivity.

:28:15.:28:20.

It increases retention rates. It increases employee well wellbeing.

:28:20.:28:26.

I think certainly you know, we shouldn't just dismiss it as a cost

:28:26.:28:29.

to business. I think flexible working is something that business

:28:29.:28:35.

needs to embrace. I take the point from your film that for a small

:28:35.:28:37.

business there maybe an issue around exceptions because it is

:28:37.:28:44.

hard. Mumsnet is a small business and we employ a lot of women of

:28:44.:28:48.

child bearing age. It is a test for business and I think there is

:28:48.:28:52.

something around you know planning, and small businesses finding that

:28:52.:28:55.

hard, but big business should embrace it.

:28:55.:29:00.

And big business by and large does or certainly has made steps to do

:29:00.:29:04.

so, hasn't it? We have been working closely with a lot of big business.

:29:04.:29:10.

We have a family-friendly programme and they have been doing some

:29:10.:29:14.

innovative things. O2 have a working interest rate which they

:29:14.:29:17.

share between parents that are allowed to share the hours between

:29:17.:29:22.

them. They have one contract. Brilliant idea. But they are doing

:29:22.:29:26.

it for a reason. It works. But if it works in the way that you

:29:26.:29:29.

have said that it increases productivity and helps a business,

:29:29.:29:32.

why has the Institute of Directors called for the reforms to be

:29:32.:29:35.

stopped and the scrapping of flexible working?

:29:35.:29:39.

It is a really good question. I wish they were here to answer it.

:29:39.:29:44.

wish they were too. Look, it suits some industries better than others.

:29:44.:29:49.

But with modern technology and with the fact that our users tell us

:29:49.:29:53.

that three-quarters of them say they are less likely to be employed

:29:53.:29:57.

after they have children, more than that say they won't get promoted,

:29:57.:30:01.

you wonder where there are fewer women in the workforce and there is

:30:02.:30:07.

a glass ceiling. Diversity is not great. Not having diversity in the

:30:07.:30:11.

workplace is a bad thing. I think, you know, people need to get a bit

:30:11.:30:13.

more modern. The Institute of Directors need to look at the

:30:14.:30:18.

bigger picture. Sometimes you just measure the cost of things as

:30:18.:30:24.

opposed to the long-term effect. How much of the statutory pa

:30:24.:30:25.

paternity leave do you think fathers should be permitted to

:30:26.:30:35.
:30:36.:30:37.

$:/STARTFEED. On the one hand we are telling women they need to

:30:37.:30:40.

breast field for longer and longer, and on the other we are saying go

:30:40.:30:46.

back to work. The truth is, what is good about this policy, it allows

:30:47.:30:52.

each individual some flexibility. It will take a while before women

:30:52.:30:57.

and men of on an equal footing, but at the moment you have total gender

:30:57.:31:02.

discrimination. Employers are reluctant to employ women have a

:31:02.:31:08.

certain age because they think they will go and have babies. We talk a

:31:08.:31:13.

look at about family friendly policies, we need employer friendly

:31:13.:31:17.

policies and flexibility is the key one. The more you open it to all

:31:17.:31:23.

employees, the less discrimination you get. My argument, and the

:31:23.:31:27.

argument of hours, is in the long run it is to is good for business.

:31:27.:31:31.

Thank you. Will this week in politics be as

:31:31.:31:34.

eventful as the last? Let's take a look at the week ahead. Today, MPs

:31:34.:31:38.

debate the Hilsborough disaster. Labour is set to call for powers to

:31:38.:31:41.

force police officers to give evidence to an inquiry into the

:31:41.:31:43.

alleged police cover-up Tuesday promises to be an uncomfortable day

:31:43.:31:47.

for the BBC's Director General, George Entwistle. He's before the

:31:47.:31:49.

Culture, Media and Sport Select Committee over the Jimmy Savile

:31:49.:31:53.

affair. Wednesday promises to be something of a blast from the past,

:31:53.:31:55.

as the granddaughter of famous suffragist Sylvia Pankhurst leads a

:31:55.:32:01.

march on Parliament calling for political action on gender equality.

:32:01.:32:04.

While for Chancellor George Osborne, Thursday can't come soon enough.

:32:04.:32:07.

The latest GDP figures are due to be published, which most economists

:32:07.:32:10.

and commentators expect to reveal that the economy returned to growth

:32:10.:32:16.

in the third quarter. Let's talk now to Rosa Prince, who writes for

:32:16.:32:24.

the Telegraph, and Rafael Behr from the New Statesman. We've had the

:32:24.:32:28.

news for the editor of Newsnight, Peter Rippon, will step aside while

:32:28.:32:33.

the review is carried out. Where do you think this leaves the BBC?

:32:33.:32:38.

all sorts of trouble. It has been a terrible day for the BBC and

:32:38.:32:42.

tomorrow will be worse when George Entwistle comes to Parliament and

:32:42.:32:46.

gets one of those ferocious mornings MPs like to dish out a

:32:46.:32:51.

public figures. A lot of MPs on the conservative side are not keen on

:32:51.:32:56.

the BBC and they will relish this opportunity. It seems strange that

:32:56.:33:03.

tonight we will have Panorama on at the same time as Newsnight itself.

:33:03.:33:08.

It is crisis mode and MPs will enjoy themselves. Do you think it

:33:08.:33:13.

is a crisis, would you agree? crisis for the BBC, a definite

:33:14.:33:18.

crisis for Newsnight. Some hysterical things have been said.

:33:18.:33:23.

If you compare this situation to the situation immediately after the

:33:23.:33:27.

heart an inquiry where senior executives at the BBC were at war

:33:27.:33:32.

with the Government... We need to get to the bottom of precisely why

:33:32.:33:35.

Newsnight pulled this investigation into Jimmy Savile. The charge at

:33:35.:33:39.

the root of this, as I understand it, is that someone somewhere in

:33:39.:33:43.

the BBC decided that the BBC reputation was more important than

:33:43.:33:49.

getting to the bottom of whether a big TV personality abused children

:33:49.:33:54.

over a long period of time. That is a very serious allegation. If you

:33:54.:33:59.

can clear that up, everybody can move on. As long as that is not

:33:59.:34:04.

clear, the crisis will keep going. Her let's talk about GDP. It is

:34:04.:34:08.

being labelled as turn around Thursday and George Osborne needs

:34:08.:34:12.

it to be Thursday -- 10 around Thursday. This was the missing

:34:12.:34:16.

piece of the jigsaw for George Osborne. Ever since the coalition

:34:16.:34:20.

came to power, we've heard ministers putting their trust in

:34:21.:34:26.

the economy. The austerity drive, of the cuts programme, the basis of

:34:26.:34:30.

the plan for winning another term in office is that they are the

:34:30.:34:34.

people that will put Britain back on track by cutting the deficit.

:34:34.:34:38.

You need growth to do that and that has been stubbornly hard to find.

:34:39.:34:43.

If George Osborne gets his Gabby Day on Thursday and the figures are

:34:43.:34:47.

good, fat helps to solve that problem. The trouble vent his you

:34:47.:34:51.

begin to test that premise on whether it is the economy stupid

:34:51.:34:55.

and whether that is the only thing that counts. There's a lot going on

:34:55.:35:00.

for the Government that people are finding uncomfortable. For the on

:35:00.:35:06.

the shambles reputation, and Jim Mitchell resigning, David Cameron's

:35:06.:35:11.

announcement on energy that was quickly denied. Is the public are

:35:11.:35:14.

only interested in the economy and growth? That will be the question

:35:14.:35:20.

going forward. Is it the economy stupid? Will there but all of those

:35:20.:35:25.

other issues outlined by Rosa to one side and they will be able to

:35:25.:35:29.

say, we've got inflation coming down, unemployment is coming down,

:35:29.:35:33.

and we finally got great? economy is the biggest issue and it

:35:33.:35:38.

is the thing that will decide the next election. We can get hung up

:35:38.:35:43.

on the headline GDP figure. On Thursday we will have a number. If

:35:43.:35:47.

it is slightly higher than forecasted, the Conservatives can

:35:47.:35:54.

say behold, it is working. Stick with us, don't go back to Labour.

:35:54.:35:58.

If it is disappointing, Labour can turn around and say we told you so,

:35:58.:36:07.

the economy was growing, the coalition has made it worse. The

:36:07.:36:11.

parties can hang whatever messages they had before on to this figure.

:36:11.:36:16.

Parts of the country have been in recession since before 2008 and

:36:16.:36:19.

parts of the country that never felt the recession that much and

:36:19.:36:28.

are probably growing OK. Fiddling around politically in the margins

:36:28.:36:31.

is great knockabout Westminster politics, it will not tell us that

:36:31.:36:35.

much about the economy. What will it do about allegations and

:36:35.:36:40.

criticisms from within the Tories about incompetence and

:36:40.:36:44.

mismanagement at Number Ten? It is slightly more than fiddling around.

:36:44.:36:49.

I get the message, a percentage point here and there doesn't make

:36:49.:36:53.

much of a difference to people and how they feel about their own

:36:53.:36:57.

circumstances, but if George Osborne can keep saying we have

:36:57.:37:01.

sorted out the economy, there is growth, and David Cameron can say

:37:01.:37:08.

that at PMQ is, that goes a long way. Is it entirely the answer? No.

:37:08.:37:11.

Last week David Cameron tried that during clashes with Ed Miliband

:37:11.:37:16.

about Andrew Mitchell. He kept saying, aren't you going to ask me

:37:16.:37:19.

some serious questions, it didn't really work because Andrew Mitchell

:37:19.:37:24.

still had to resign. It is important, but will it be the

:37:24.:37:29.

panacea for all ills? I'm not sure. What about seizing the initiative

:37:29.:37:35.

with the crime and justice speech today? Will that help regain power

:37:35.:37:39.

for David Cameron? He is sounding tough on crime and that is a

:37:39.:37:44.

popular message. The place for the Tories have gone into now, which is

:37:45.:37:49.

a big problem in the wake of the Mitchell resignation, is whatever

:37:49.:37:54.

they now say, it is seen as an attempt to regain the initiative,

:37:54.:37:57.

to relaunch the Government's programme, and people are less

:37:57.:38:01.

interested in the message than the ralph -- wider brand apparatus over

:38:01.:38:05.

what is going wrong end the Government. People will look at the

:38:05.:38:11.

Prime Minister saying I want to be tough on crime and say, of course

:38:11.:38:15.

politicians would say that, but what is really going on? You get

:38:15.:38:18.

into this position where it becomes difficult for Number Ten to get

:38:18.:38:22.

through with the message they want because everybody else has decided

:38:22.:38:25.

the political narrative is something else. You are very

:38:26.:38:29.

difficult to please! Thank you. And joining us now for the rest of

:38:29.:38:32.

the programme, three MPs. From Labour, Tom Greatrex. From the

:38:32.:38:34.

Conservative Party, Jane Ellison. And from the Liberal Democrats,

:38:34.:38:42.

Simon Wright. Welcome. Let's pick up on growth. Simon, do you agree

:38:42.:38:46.

that the future of the Government hangs on these GDP figures?

:38:46.:38:51.

hoping for a positive story. course! You can take nothing for

:38:51.:38:55.

granted. The last quarter's figures were disappointing, but politically

:38:55.:39:01.

it is important. In his it critical? -- a visit critical?

:39:02.:39:06.

need to show that the plant is going to deliver the growth we all

:39:06.:39:10.

want. We've had some positive figures in the last week's on

:39:10.:39:14.

things like unemployment. Record figures over unemployment.

:39:14.:39:20.

Inflation down. Inflation is now half what it was a year ago. I hope

:39:20.:39:23.

that following falls in unemployment and inflation, we were

:39:23.:39:27.

now see an increase in growth. must be praying for no growth.

:39:27.:39:33.

we want to see the economy growing. It is having a detrimental effect

:39:33.:39:39.

on people. The issue with this quarter, 18 months' worth of TV

:39:39.:39:42.

rights, ticket sales for the Olympics, captured in that one

:39:42.:39:47.

quarter. It is about the sustained picture in terms of growth. Simon

:39:47.:39:51.

is right to talk about further quarters. One quarter of growth is

:39:51.:39:55.

a blip and will not be good for the economy. If the economy starts

:39:55.:39:59.

growing again, what happens to Labour's argument about austerity

:40:00.:40:03.

measures having killed of growth? It will be shot to pieces. Her they

:40:03.:40:07.

have killed off growth. What does Labour say on Thursday if there's

:40:08.:40:15.

growth? Even if it is 1%, we're only going back to where we were a

:40:15.:40:21.

year ago. We've still got, despite the welcome changes, a record high

:40:21.:40:24.

long-term unemployment, a lot of people in my constituency have not

:40:24.:40:29.

been able to get a job. Some deep- seated economic problems. Lots of

:40:29.:40:33.

those are the fault of the Government. Even if you get 1%

:40:33.:40:37.

growth on Thursday, it is worth than the position they inherited.

:40:37.:40:43.

We used will be calling for money to be spent to boost the economy?

:40:43.:40:48.

It is important that we try to build growth, not just relying on

:40:48.:40:52.

one quarter. That means particularly around some of the

:40:52.:40:55.

investment in infrastructure that needs to happen. Not a lot is

:40:55.:41:00.

happening. After the Andrew Mitchell affair, the energy policy,

:41:00.:41:03.

no economic growth would fuel those critics within the Tory party who

:41:03.:41:07.

are questioning whether Cameron and Osborne are up to the job? We've

:41:07.:41:14.

had a difficult few weeks, but the economy is central. More

:41:14.:41:18.

importantly than that, by the time of the next election, we have to

:41:18.:41:23.

show we have taken Ashes -- taken action on some of the big issues.

:41:23.:41:27.

It is not just about one quarter, it is about whether all of the

:41:27.:41:31.

things we are doing on welfare and apprenticeships, all of those

:41:31.:41:35.

things are feeding in to a more robust economy. Do you think for

:41:35.:41:39.

Number Ten operation is competent at the moment? I can't pass comment,

:41:39.:41:45.

I'm not close enough to the seat of power. You're a Tory MP. The prime

:41:45.:41:51.

minister is competent, that is the key thing. The Prime Minister at

:41:51.:41:55.

the party conference know at the big issues. But not Number Ten?

:41:55.:41:58.

Prime Minister laid out very clearly what we need to do as a

:41:58.:42:05.

country. I am 100% behind him. you agree it is mishandling at the

:42:05.:42:08.

Number Ten operation that is stopping the message getting out?

:42:08.:42:11.

think the people of Britain want to see us dealing with the really big

:42:11.:42:19.

issues. All of our constituents at are experiencing difficulty. I'm

:42:19.:42:22.

not going to get drawn into the whole Westminster village

:42:22.:42:26.

discussion about the operation. There are bigger issues for the

:42:26.:42:32.

electorate. It is not the media, it is Tory party members, whether it

:42:32.:42:36.

be senior figures like Norman Tebbit or backbench MPs. One or two

:42:36.:42:40.

figures have been critical but a lot happened. Can you endorse the

:42:40.:42:44.

Number Ten operation for us? It is running the Prime Minister's office.

:42:44.:42:49.

The only thing that matters in Number Ten is the prime minister.

:42:50.:42:54.

David Cameron's deputy chief of staff said on American chat show

:42:54.:42:58.

programme that he spends most of his day doing crisis management, is

:42:58.:43:02.

that what you expect from the senior management team running the

:43:02.:43:06.

Government? To it is not what anyone would expect and not

:43:06.:43:10.

something I've seen happening. Clearly there might have been some

:43:10.:43:14.

problems. Did they handle the Mitchell affect directly? I think

:43:14.:43:20.

Andrew Mitchell was right to resign. It was very clear that after the

:43:20.:43:22.

few weeks that issue had continued to pick up steam that it wasn't

:43:22.:43:26.

going to go away and there was the right decision for him to take.

:43:26.:43:32.

Moving forward, we have to focus on the economy, on improving the

:43:32.:43:36.

outcomes in the education system, bringing down crime. We've had

:43:36.:43:40.

positive crime figures. There's plenty of big issues that we can

:43:40.:43:44.

get stuck into and we are delivering on.

:43:44.:43:48.

To be or not to be tough on crime, that is the question this morning

:43:48.:43:52.

as the Prime Minister lays out his vision on law and order in a speech

:43:52.:43:55.

this morning. Before the election, David Cameron described himself as

:43:55.:43:57.

a liberal Conservative and was derided for wanting to hug hoodies.

:43:57.:44:00.

And two years ago, Ken Clarke described rising prisoner numbers

:44:00.:44:05.

as pointless and very bad value for taxpayers' money. It was a far cry

:44:05.:44:08.

from a previous Conservative position that prison works. But

:44:08.:44:11.

today, tough is the new liberal, as the Prime Minister announces a

:44:11.:44:15.

"tough but intelligent" approach. He says that the debate between

:44:15.:44:21.

being tough or acting soft is a sterile one. In keeping with recent

:44:21.:44:23.

announcements of more freedom for householder to use violence against

:44:23.:44:26.

burglars and longer sentences for handling firearms, Cameron has put

:44:26.:44:31.

a greater emphasis on retribution and punishment. At the same time,

:44:31.:44:34.

he is still pushing Ken Clarke's idea of a rehabilitation revolution,

:44:34.:44:40.

arguing people need opportunities and chances away from crime. So is

:44:40.:44:43.

this a change of direction and can you focus on retribution and

:44:43.:44:52.

rehabilitation at the same time? David Cameron has just been

:44:53.:44:55.

speaking at the Centre for Social Justice. A for many people, when it

:44:55.:45:00.

comes to crime, I'm the person associated with those three words,

:45:00.:45:04.

two of which begin with H and one of them is hoodie, although I never

:45:04.:45:09.

actually said it and I haven't said it again today. For others I'm a

:45:09.:45:13.

politician who has frequently argued for tough punishment. Do why

:45:13.:45:17.

take a tough line on crime or a touchy-feely one? In no other area

:45:17.:45:22.

of public debate to the issues get as polarised as this. On climate

:45:22.:45:25.

change, you don't have to be incomplete denial on the one hand

:45:26.:45:29.

or complaining to get every car off the road on the other. Life isn't

:45:29.:45:34.

that simple. Government policy isn't that simple either. Key with

:45:34.:45:38.

the crime debate, people seem to want it black or white. Lock them

:45:38.:45:43.

up or let them out, blamed the criminal or blame society, be tough

:45:43.:45:47.

or act soft. We are so busy going backwards and forwards that we

:45:47.:45:51.

never move the debate on. What I've been trying to do in opposition and

:45:51.:45:55.

now in government is to break out of the sterile debate and show a

:45:55.:46:05.

new way forward, tough but Jane, is this the end of a hug a

:46:05.:46:08.

hoody phrase? The Prime Minister said he didn't ever say that. It is

:46:08.:46:11.

an evolution of what we have been saying for seven years from

:46:11.:46:15.

opposition through into Government. It is a sterile debate to say it is

:46:15.:46:18.

one thing or the other. There are clearly, people who need to be put

:46:18.:46:22.

away for a long time to protect society and for all the reasons the

:46:22.:46:29.

Prime Minister spelt out, but to imagine there isn't a role for

:46:29.:46:33.

rehabilitation to think we are putting people in prison at great

:46:33.:46:37.

public expense to make sure when they come out they don't slip back

:46:37.:46:42.

into crime. No one would disagree with that.

:46:42.:46:45.

There maybe questions about whether this is a continuation of an

:46:45.:46:51.

existing policy, either prison works and that's your headline or

:46:51.:46:55.

rehabilitation works? The Prime Minister is saying prison should

:46:55.:47:00.

work better. You do get this kind of polarized view and some people

:47:00.:47:03.

have presented the Prime Minister as not being tough enough on

:47:03.:47:07.

serious criminals... You think he gave that impression of not being

:47:07.:47:13.

tough enough? No, I don't. The debate has got bogged down in that

:47:13.:47:19.

territory and parmance have been part -- Parliamentarians have been

:47:19.:47:24.

part of that. The idea that we can't help with drug use and all

:47:24.:47:27.

those things is crazy. You a I gree with Ken Clarke --

:47:27.:47:33.

agree with Ken Clarke who said, "Too often prison has proved an

:47:33.:47:40.

ineffective approach that failed to turn prisoners into law abiding

:47:40.:47:43.

citizens." Do you think Ken was right? Yes.

:47:43.:47:49.

You don't want to see rising prison numbers? It is what you do with

:47:49.:47:53.

people when they are inside. If David Cameron is saying there

:47:53.:47:55.

have got to be tougher sentences then there are going to be more

:47:55.:47:59.

people going to jail for a longer time. Are you comfortable with

:47:59.:48:03.

rising prison numbers? If prison numbers rise as a result of putting

:48:03.:48:06.

away serious crim criminals, that's fine.

:48:06.:48:11.

How are you going pay for it?. are trying to stop people coming

:48:11.:48:16.

back and that answers your question about payment. It is about stopping

:48:16.:48:21.

the same people coming back and back and back, that's how you get

:48:21.:48:25.

the cost cost down. If you want to send more people to

:48:25.:48:28.

prison, you will need more prisons? Snooze a Liberal Democrat I support

:48:28.:48:34.

the view that we need a revolution in rehabilitation... Do you support

:48:34.:48:39.

the prison works? Prison can can work which is what David Cameron is

:48:39.:48:43.

saying today. We cannot have the resolving door where offenders

:48:43.:48:47.

leave prison and come back in. Our re-offending rates are unacceptably

:48:47.:48:51.

high in this country. We need to focus on the evidence of what works.

:48:51.:48:57.

This means getting away from the the narrow debate about being tough

:48:58.:49:07.
:49:08.:49:12.

or soft on crime. Initiatives such as the use of restorive jus justice.

:49:12.:49:16.

Julia Lyons warned that tougher sentencing will cost more in the

:49:16.:49:19.

short-term? Well, the only way crime will cost more in the long-

:49:20.:49:26.

term is if we don't... How do we pay for it in the short-term?

:49:26.:49:31.

thing we can do is focus on payment by results so so those providers

:49:31.:49:34.

have a clear idea of what they need to be achieving in order to get

:49:34.:49:39.

paid. That's how we are going to drive down re-offending rates.

:49:39.:49:42.

It puts Labour in a difficult position, painting you soft on

:49:42.:49:48.

crime? No, I don't think so. Today's speech was, there is

:49:48.:49:52.

nothing new in it actually. It is trying to get a third re-launch in

:49:52.:49:56.

the calendar year for David Cameron, but the concern I have with what

:49:56.:49:59.

Chris Grayling was saying this morning about the rolling out the

:49:59.:50:02.

Peterborough pilot, the payment by results is that we haven't got the

:50:02.:50:07.

results from that pilot yet and Chris Grayling has form on this

:50:07.:50:15.

because he rolled out the the scheme for peopling coming off

:50:15.:50:19.

Incapacity Benefit and that caused chaos so we have to make sure we

:50:19.:50:24.

get the details right. It is untested. The Commons justice

:50:24.:50:28.

Select Committee said payment by results were untested in the field

:50:28.:50:34.

of criminal justice. Pinning your hopes on that is premature? It is

:50:34.:50:38.

clearly a learning development. This is an exciting area of

:50:38.:50:42.

development where the Ministry of Justice has been putting in work

:50:42.:50:45.

and effort. We will make it work. We have to make it work because we

:50:45.:50:50.

have to bring down fending. You have to get the results of the

:50:50.:50:57.

pilot. If it is not working, you will create more problems for the

:50:57.:51:02.

few tufr. -- future.

:51:02.:51:05.

We are not without knowledge. One of the things I hope we have got

:51:05.:51:10.

space for in this initiative is to make sure that smaller, voluntary

:51:11.:51:15.

and innovative groups can find space to and not just the big

:51:15.:51:20.

providers. That would be something I'm looking for as we roll this out.

:51:20.:51:25.

Do you accept in the short-term it is going to push up costs and you

:51:25.:51:31.

will need at least some more prison space to hold these prisoners?

:51:31.:51:34.

don't think we know that either of these things are true.

:51:34.:51:41.

You have You have Juliet Lyons saying that and she is an expert?

:51:41.:51:44.

We don't know what is going to happen to prison numbers or the

:51:44.:51:50.

costs. Payment by results has the potential to deliver diminishing

:51:50.:51:55.

costs. It is an area that's evolving. I don't think you can

:51:55.:51:58.

jump from hearing the speech to saying it is the case that numbers

:51:58.:52:02.

are going to go up. Sentencing is down to judges.

:52:02.:52:05.

Why is the re-launch happening? don't think it is a re-launch...

:52:05.:52:10.

What's new? It is a long planned speech.

:52:10.:52:19.

There is nothing new in it? It has become an overly sterile debate and

:52:19.:52:23.

the pragmatic reality is between the two polarizeted pos --

:52:23.:52:26.

polarized positions. Do you believe that David Cameron

:52:26.:52:31.

is a liberal Conservative? This is one area in which he is

:52:31.:52:35.

demonstrating he can be a liberal Conservative. Supporting

:52:35.:52:40.

Rehabilitation is key to bringing down crime. I am pleased that he

:52:40.:52:43.

has incorporated that into this speech and he is moving beyond what

:52:43.:52:46.

is an old-fashioned rhetoric of the black and the white that he talked

:52:46.:52:49.

about, that you are soft or tough on crime and moving towards a

:52:49.:52:53.

debate on what works. This Bill is very effectively on the work that

:52:53.:52:57.

Ken Clarke was progressing within the Ministry of Justice.

:52:57.:53:02.

Do you agree with the rhetoric surrounding the bash a burglar?

:53:02.:53:06.

think that that policy was very clearly articulated... And you

:53:06.:53:10.

agree with it? It is right that people should not be punished for

:53:10.:53:16.

something that they are caught in the moment in and the heat of the

:53:16.:53:20.

moment and I think making that clear is vital which is what that

:53:20.:53:23.

discussion was about a few weeks ago.

:53:23.:53:32.

And nothing for you to to disagree on, Tom? It is about trying to send

:53:32.:53:36.

a message of being the tough person that will appeal to the base and

:53:36.:53:40.

keep some of Jane's colleagues on board after what was a traumatic

:53:40.:53:47.

for Jane's colleagues last week. Something Labour did successfully,

:53:47.:53:52.

being tough on crime works for the electorate? The issue around this

:53:52.:53:57.

pilot is that payment by results, if you got to get the detail pilot

:53:57.:54:01.

before you, there is a danger in rolling this out and the big

:54:01.:54:04.

companies cherry-picking the easy bits and you leave the real

:54:04.:54:09.

problems behind. If the pilots come back back, they

:54:09.:54:15.

come back and say this works, will Labour back it? Will you say "this

:54:15.:54:21.

is something we will support." That's yu -- that's why you need to

:54:21.:54:26.

get the results. When it comes back, we will evaluate. If it is working,

:54:26.:54:30.

it is something that should be considered. Its danger of -- the

:54:30.:54:38.

danger of rolling this out, Chris Grayling may rush this out, we have

:54:38.:54:42.

got to be careful we don't have unintend consequences and make a

:54:42.:54:46.

situation worse rather than better. Spare a thought for Ed Miliband who

:54:46.:54:50.

turned up a the anti-aurth march on -- anti-austerity march on Saturday

:54:50.:54:58.

and got booed. Take a look at this. Now, of course, now of course,

:54:58.:55:02.

there will still be hard choices and with borrowing rising, nots

:55:02.:55:10.

falling, I do not - I do not promise easy times. You know, you

:55:10.:55:14.

know it is right, it is right that we level with people. That there

:55:14.:55:19.

would still be hard choices. I have said whoever was in Government now,

:55:19.:55:26.

there would be some cuts, but this Government has shown the cutting

:55:26.:55:31.

too far and too fast, self deceiting austerity is not the the

:55:31.:55:35.

answer. It is not the answer to Britain's problems.

:55:35.:55:41.

Ed Miliband, it sounded like everyone was booing him. It might

:55:41.:55:50.

be a small vocal group which is what the SMP are good at.

:55:50.:55:56.

Jane thinks it is Ed Miliband's spindoctors booing for effect!

:55:56.:56:01.

That's taking the events of last week too far. Isn't there an

:56:01.:56:06.

important point that you can make a a controversial, unpopular speech

:56:06.:56:11.

to a friendly audience and get booed and the wider electorate

:56:11.:56:16.

think, "Ed Miliband is saying important. He is prepared to go

:56:16.:56:20.

against his supporters.". The point that Ed Miliband was making was the

:56:20.:56:24.

right one and I know from people who went on the sister march in

:56:25.:56:28.

Glasgow, there are people who aren't the usual suspects in terms

:56:28.:56:30.

of trade union activist who are concerned about issues and joined

:56:30.:56:33.

that march because they are concerned about what is happening.

:56:33.:56:37.

Does it help him being booed? People will see that reactionment

:56:37.:56:41.

people will hear what he says, and what he is saying is right. We have

:56:41.:56:46.

to be clear about what it is - the situation we are likely to inherit

:56:46.:56:54.

if we come into Government gen Government again in 2015.

:56:54.:57:00.

Isn't the real real that Labour would have cut. There would be been

:57:00.:57:04.

serious cuts and slashing of spending? The situation that we are

:57:04.:57:09.

likely to have in 2015 could be worse than the situation in 2010

:57:09.:57:19.

and we are one of only two G20 economies that that have been in a

:57:19.:57:24.

double dip recession. George Osborne got booed over the

:57:24.:57:28.

summer? Ed Miliband at a time when Britain is trying to attract saying

:57:28.:57:31.

we are open to business and trying to attract jobs and trying to

:57:31.:57:35.

restore confidence, he shared a platform with people calling for a

:57:35.:57:40.

general strike. He would have made cuts? Labour

:57:40.:57:44.

haven't voted for any. We haven't had any support whatsoever from the

:57:44.:57:48.

Opposition in two years of taking hard decisions.

:57:48.:57:53.

That's the receipt riblingt in reality -- rhetoric and they would

:57:53.:57:58.

have made cuts? Well, how can we believe it? His position is not

:57:58.:58:01.

credible sharing a platform with people calling for a general strike

:58:01.:58:08.

that would damage our country. What are the Liberal Democrats

:58:08.:58:11.

going to counter the support? Liberal Democrats are working hard

:58:11.:58:15.

to clear up the mess that Labour left behind.

:58:15.:58:18.

The grass-roots are going over to Labour? No, that's not the case. We

:58:18.:58:24.

are working hard in Government to try and sort out the mess that was

:58:24.:58:28.

inherited. The one thing that Ed Miliband could have said, that

:58:28.:58:32.

might have got got cheers is to apologise for his party's record. A

:58:32.:58:36.

record which he and Ed Balls were very much behind and advising

:58:36.:58:40.

Gordon Brown in the Treasury. So I think that the one thing that Ed

:58:40.:58:45.

Miliband needs to do is reflect on why people are booing him. Why they

:58:45.:58:49.

are disillusioned and it is because he says he wants cuts, but doesn't

:58:49.:58:53.

Jo Coburn with all the latest political news. Including Justine Roberts from Mumsnet on plans to reform parental leave, and the Prime Minister's proposals on prison sentencing.


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