23/10/2012 Daily Politics


23/10/2012

Jo Coburn is joined former foreign secretary Jack Straw for all the latest political news including MPs' questioning of the BBC Director General about the Jimmy Savile scandal.


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Good afternoon. Welcome to the Daily Politics.

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REPORTER: Do you think you might have to consider your position by

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the end of the day? MPs quiz BBC Director-General, WHISTLE which is,

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about what he knew and when about the Jimmy Savile sex abuse

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allegations. The Government's controversial

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badger cull is expected to be delayed by a year. -- George

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Entwistle. The Environment Minister is about

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to make a statement. The Government says it won't

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subsidise new nuclear power stations but with energy firms

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reluctant to invest rthey about to change their minds? Prison works.

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It ensures that we are protected from murders, muggers and rapists.

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And why do politicians like to talk tough on crime?

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All that in the next hour. With me for the whole programme today is

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the former Home Secretary, Foreign Secretary, and Justice Secretary,

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to name just a few of his former roles. What a busy man he has been,

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Jack Straw. Before we move on to that smorgasbord of political news

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that we have prepared, let's talk about a political story emanating

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from the other side of the Atlantic. Last night was the last of the

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Presidental debates before next month's election the theme this

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time: foreign affairs. Something Jack Straw knows a bit about.

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Before we talk let's get a change of the exchanges. I'm glad you

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recognise Al-Qaeda is a threat. A few months ago when you were asked

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the biggest geopolitical threat facing America, you said rushia,

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not alguidia. In the 1980s, they were calling to ask for their

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policy back. The Cold War has been over for 20 years. But governor,

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when it comes it our foreign policy you seem to want to import the

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foreign policies of the 1980, just like the social policies of the

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1950s and the economic policies of the 1920s. You say you are not

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interested in duplicating what happened in Iraq, but just a few

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weeks ago you said - you think we should have more troops in Iraq

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right now. And the challenge we have - I know you haven't been in a

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position to actually execute foreign policy - but, every time

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you have offered an opinion, you've been wrong. Attacking me is not an

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agenda. Attacking me is not talking about how we are going to deal with

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the challenges in the Middle East and take advantage of the

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opportunity there and stem the tide of this violence. But I'll respond

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to a couple of the things you mentioned. Russia, I indicated is a

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geopolitical foe. It is a geopolitical foe. I said in the

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same paragraph, "Iran is the greatest national security threat

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we face." Russia continues to battle us in the UN time and time

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again. I have clear eyes on this. I'm not going to wear rose coloured

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glasses when it comes to Russia or Mr Putin and I'll not say it him -

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I'll give you more flexibility after the election. Why wasn't

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Barack Obama sewn this up? Well, I think because he was very

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complacent at the beginning. I think that first debate showed that

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complacency. He also made a very predictable error - which is he

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allowed himself to get too tired. Elections are knackering.

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Especially Presidental ones. any leader. I saw that with Tony

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and Gordon and with Neil Kinnock before that. Absolutely knackering.

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He needed to have left himself two or teledays to prepare for that

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first crucial contest debate. -- two or three days.

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He didn't do so and he has been on the backfoot frying to regain lost

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ground. He did well on the second one. -- trying to regain. Looking

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at the clips I have seen of last night's debate. I think at best for

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Obama it is even Stevens. I wouldn't have advised him to go on

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the attack in that way against Romney. It does suggest that he,

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Obama felt a bit defensive about these things. As you say, it's

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given Mitt Romney an opening to almost reinvent himself through the

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Presidental debates because the polls had indicated he was behind

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in most of the important swing states. So, now, it's going to go

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to the wire, isn't it? I guess so. As with British elections, which

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depend crucially on marginal seats, which is not what happens elsewhere,

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this is down to handful of the so- called swing states and it'll go to

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the wire. Ohio, Florida, states like that. You just never know. It

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looks as though Obama may still be slightly ahead in more of the swing

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states than he is behind, but I think it's going to be a very

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exciting night. Have you been disappointed by President Obama's

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first term? I have not been disappointed. I suppose my

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expectations on world lead remembers fairly lo. I know how

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damned difficult it is to be in office. -- fairly low. An

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electorate expects you to go on high-blown rhetoric and then they

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are disappointed. Expectations were huge on Obama. They were. He has

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managed to achieve reform in the health service and health care

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which in the context of American politics, completely different from

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anything here in terms of health care, that is a major achievement

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and one I think which will last. you think, though, it is still

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inconceivable, to use that word, that America would try to bomb Iran,

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especially under President Romney? When I answered that question in

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2004, it was about what the UK would do, in respect of the then

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more moderate regime in Iran. It is not inconceivable that a US

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administration under Mitt Romney would seek it take military action

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against Iran. Under present circumstances, I think it would be

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highly ill-advised. The case for military action simply isn't there.

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The Iranians are extraordinaryly frustrating to negotiate with. In

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many ways they are their own worst enemy. But the best evidence which

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comes from the IAEA, the atomic energy authority, was they stopped

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developing a nuclear weapon system in 2003, partly of the work of the

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French, German and British administration. Do you think that

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Mitt Romney, after that final debate on foreign affairs, where he

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hasn't had any experience, did he look more Presidental? Did he achef

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his name as trying to sound as though he could be Commander-in-

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Chief. The makeover of Mitt Romney in the last month has been

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extraordinary. He certainly did look more Presidental. If you think

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about the kind of right-wing position he was adopting in the

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primaries, he's moved from there to here has been reMoroccoable. -- his

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move. You could see him in the job for sure. Personally no, surprise

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about this, I would rather have President Obama reflected.

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No big surprise. Time for the daily quiz. The Education Secretary,

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Michael Gove has written to his old teacher to apologise for his

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behaviour. The question today was, At the end of the show, Jack will

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give us the correct answer. You will be pleased to know you have

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time to think about it. The BBC Director-General, George Entwistle,

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began giving he have to the Culture, Media and Sport Committee a little

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over 90 minutes ago. He is still being questioned by MPs anxious to

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find out what and when he found out about allegations of child sex

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abuse by Jimmy Savile. He has been Director-General for only a month

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but before that was a senior executive at the corporation in

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charge of its television output. He was asked about the detail of

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allegations about the Conservative MP, Philip Davis. Who in the BBC

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decided to bus in young, vulnerable girls from institutions to be in

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the audience of programmes being presented by Jimmy Savile.

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genuinely don't know the answer to that yet. We are trying to pull

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together all the documentation we can about who, which managers and

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so on were in positions of authority at the time Jimmy

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Savile's programmes were being made and we are supplying that

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information to the police so that they know how to take their

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investigations forward. Who in the BBC allowed these children to be

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taken backstage to Jimmy Savile's dressing room after the shows?

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Davis, we are trying to answer those questions in the same way.

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Dame Janet Smith's review has been set up to ask and answer all these

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questions and we will give every support we can to enable her to do

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that. With respect, you don't need to set up a review it ask questions

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like that, do you? Surely you are more than capable of asking that.

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Surely you don't need somebody else to ask those questions for you.

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set up an independent review for the precise are en, we want the

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outside world to be assured we asked those questions properly. We

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set up the few within two weeks of the scale of this crisis being

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known. I'm convinced that the right way to get to the bottom of this is

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to give all the support now to Dame Janet Smith so she can answer the

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questions you are asking. Have you set up a review to allow you to

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aindividual answering these questions, farm it off to somebody

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else -- to avoid. Palm it off to somebody else. We see politicians

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doing this, set up a review and kick it into the long grass. Is

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that not exactly what the BBC is doing I don't think there is

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anything about the way we have structured the two independent

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reviews, that is designed to aindividual answering questions.

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The way they have been set up and the support they are given will

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enable them to ask any question they want, to go anywhere they want.

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It is the opposite of an attempt to hide things and cover things up.

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This is an attempt to make things wide open. Mr Entwistle, do you now

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accept, in the light of last night's Panorama, that the decision

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to drop the Newsnight investigation was a catastrophic mistake? I came

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away from the Panorama firmly of the view that that investigation,

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even if in the judgment of the editor it wasn't ready for

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transmission at the point he was looking at it, should be allowed to

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continue. Why did it take three weeks for the BBC to realise the

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account given by Mr Rippon was inaccurate and incomplete? When you

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want to find out why a programme has done an investigation, in my

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long experience of the BBC is the person you go to is the

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commissioning editor or the editor of the programme. They should know

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why they commissioned the police and they should have the most

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complete picture. What became clear to us after the blog was published

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was that there were, that what had happened on Newsnight, was that

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there was a significant, it seemed, difference of opinion, between the

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people working on the investigation and the editor Peter Rippon, who

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commissioned the investigation and that difference of opinion was made

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clear to me relatively soon after the blog was published the

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following week. And at that point I thought - well, although I would

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normally absolutely expect to be able it get from the editor of a

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programme a -- to get from the editor of a programme, a complete

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and full picture of what had been going on, I thought I needed to get

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to the pot bottom of why there was a difference of opinion and there

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seemed to be a difference of opinion. Were you angry when you

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found out about this? I was very disappointed that the blog turned

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out to be as inrack at as it was. maybe have expected a rawer emotion

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than very disappointed. You have been let down and exposed by a

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senior colleague. What I have relied upon is that something in my

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BBC career I have always been able to rely upon, is the editor of a

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programme having a full grip and understanding of an investigation

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they were in charge of. On this occasion that doesn't seem to have

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been the case and that was disappointed. With us is the media

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commentator and former Panorama editor Steve homosexuality. How do

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you think he is doing? No killer blow was struck by anyone on the

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committee. On the other hand, he is sounding under-informed. I think

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think he doesn't know enough. Even the questions at the beginning by

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Phillips... Philip Davis asking about the culture in the BBC and

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you know what happened. He didn't have statistics. He didn't know, he

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didn't know. Would you have expected him to have had the exact

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statistics. If you don't know, you should say - I don't know. You

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shouldn't say, er, er, and after five minutes of being pushed around

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reveal you don't know. On most points he sounds under-informed I

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have to say. In so far as what he needed to do here, was to convince

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people that someone has a grip. Ben Bradshaw said it - tell us you have

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a grip. He appears as a man trapped in process, not actually with his

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hands on the thing itself. He hasn't given a convincing

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performance in your view, in terms of how he has handle of what is

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going on? Not kwhret. One has sympathy. -- not yet. Due process

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is important. These are people's careers, a national treasure.

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he has only been in the job should have been a gift for a new

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Director-General. A new broom sweep. Lead the organisation through

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trauma which is what Savile would constitute but because he was at

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the scene of the crime in his previous role's bit stuck. He has

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been on the backfoot from the start and the BBC unfortunately continues

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to show signs of that. Even now, when would you expect him to be

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able it get on the front-foot and say - right. He is held back by

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what has happened which is really not great. It's been pulled out of

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him bit by bit by bit. Let's go through the stages. Let's talk

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about the Newsnight investigation. He said clearly - it should have

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continued. Look, I think that's a key question in a sense for Peter

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Rippon. I was a BBC editor. You know - he is has allowed things to

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go by which is barmy. I understand why one is saying it's e-mail from

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Peter Rippon says "We have just the women.", that's an editor saying

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"Hang on, are we sure we've go the enough to go on.", I don't think it

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means he has a downer on the women or he doesn't believe them, I think

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he is saying - is that enough? He allowed that to go by and engaged

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with it as a discussion about the BBC's attitude towards wi. I don't

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think it exhibits anything of the sort. The BBC may well have issues

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with women but that is the editor is saying is the evidence there?

:15:26.:15:36.
:15:36.:15:41.

What has become clear is that they did not take on the accounts of the

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journalist and producer who were making that investigation. Editors

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have to make difficult decisions. It is not uncommon to have a

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journalist pursued to do a story and you have to say, I don't quite

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by it. Disputes between editors and journalists are commonplace. That

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is not a surprise. But whereas Peter Rippon's reasoning, if you

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discount the conspiracy theory, which I do, his reasoning for not

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going ahead with the programme, you could argue about, but they were

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his reasons. But what they have said about it does not amount to a

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convincing explanation. We had to wait for Panorama to tell us that

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the editor had doubts about the evidence. They said up to that

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point, he had not gone ahead with the programme because the Crown

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Prosecution Service had not proceeded on one aspect. It didn't

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make sense. Jack Straw, we have not watched every bit of the

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questioning, but from what you have heard, do you think there was

:16:46.:16:52.

outside interference in dropping that Newsnight investigation?

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don't know. I worked for World in Action, Granada's investigative

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programme, for two years, before I came into the house. We as young

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Turks would want to convince our editor of a programme to put it on,

:17:09.:17:13.

for sure. And the editors would say, hang on a second, we haven't got

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the evidence. As Steve has said, I doubt there is a conspiracy. The

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bigger issue is, why did Peter Rippon come out with what seemed to

:17:26.:17:29.

be excuses? There is nothing illegitimate about an editor saying,

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I took a judgment. It may have been the wrong judgment, but I made a

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judgment that this was not properly cooked. I have spent 13 years as a

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minister, having to make judgments every day, sometimes on the basis

:17:45.:17:51.

of half a phone call or half a conversation. He problem with life

:17:51.:17:55.

it is that when you look at it backwards, you have to live it

:17:55.:17:59.

affords. Sometimes you get things wrong, but if you do, you need to

:17:59.:18:04.

put your hands up. We have had at the ITV broadcast and we have seen

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the Panorama broadcast. The question is, is George Entwistle

:18:12.:18:17.

saying that Peter Rippon made a mistake and that it is his fault?

:18:17.:18:20.

He has dumped on Peter Rippon prodigiously this morning. He has

:18:20.:18:25.

said various things which amount to the end of Peter Rippon, certainly

:18:25.:18:30.

in his career at the BBC. In fact, I think Peter Rippon's decision may

:18:30.:18:34.

have been wrong, but it is understandable. The bigger question

:18:34.:18:38.

is, if you had known what you had got, you may not have felt

:18:38.:18:43.

confident enough to broadcast it at the time, but you can't just stop.

:18:43.:18:47.

The woman who appeared on Panorama, when she said, it took me such a

:18:47.:18:52.

lot to get to the point where I was prepared to say this, and then you

:18:52.:18:56.

are left on the cutting-room floor, that is not right. You wonder

:18:56.:19:02.

whether the editor of Newsnight new what he had got. That comes down to

:19:02.:19:06.

questions being asked about George Entwistle's news managers. Were

:19:06.:19:10.

they not telling him everything that was known, that there was a

:19:10.:19:13.

disagreement between the journalists making the film and the

:19:13.:19:18.

editor? Is it their fault, too? There is nothing wrong with

:19:18.:19:22.

management pressure. It is the job of news managers to say to their

:19:22.:19:26.

editors, just as editors sector and the journalists, come up with the

:19:26.:19:30.

proof, it is quite appropriate venues managers to say, hold on,

:19:30.:19:34.

are you sure this is true? That is not inappropriate. It would be

:19:34.:19:38.

inappropriate if pressure were being exercised for other purposes,

:19:38.:19:44.

like to say the corporation embarrassment. There are some

:19:44.:19:48.

implications from what we have heard George Entwistle say so far.

:19:48.:19:52.

He is not sure that his news managers have briefed him

:19:52.:19:57.

effectively, but he has not gone that far yet. We are going to go

:19:57.:20:04.

back to some of the questioning. We will hear the chair of the select

:20:04.:20:07.

committee asking a question about the conversation between Helen

:20:07.:20:13.

Boaden and George Entwistle. This was when he was in his previous

:20:13.:20:17.

role, ahead of the Christmas programme. This was when she said

:20:17.:20:22.

to him, Savile investigation, Newsnight, and he says he did not

:20:22.:20:29.

ask anything about it. When it was said you that Newsnight was looking

:20:29.:20:33.

into Jimmy Savile, what did you think they were investigating?

:20:33.:20:39.

don't remember reflecting on it. This was a busy lunch. You are told

:20:39.:20:41.

that one of the flagship investigative programmes on the BBC

:20:41.:20:48.

is looking into one of the most iconic figures, who you are about

:20:48.:20:52.

to commission she attributes to, and you don't want to know? It was

:20:52.:20:57.

not that I didn't want to know. What was in my mind was a

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determination not to show an undue interest. But just saying thanks,

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Helen, what are you looking at? Why did she tell you if you were

:21:08.:21:11.

determined not to ask what it was about? She presumably thought you

:21:11.:21:15.

should know, and therefore would have expected you to say, what is

:21:15.:21:19.

it about? Are assumed she was preparing me for the possibility

:21:19.:21:26.

that I would need to think about changing the schedule. That could

:21:26.:21:33.

be potentially very difficult. George's problem with this is that

:21:33.:21:37.

he has said this before and has gone on to say that at no point did

:21:37.:21:40.

he become aware of any of the details of the investigation. He

:21:40.:21:47.

did not know it was about child abuse. He has claimed to know

:21:47.:21:51.

nothing. He has been absolutely definite. He said it on the Today

:21:51.:21:55.

programme. If anything emerges now or subsequently that shows that

:21:55.:21:59.

that is not 100% correct, he is in real trouble, because he has been

:21:59.:22:06.

so definite about it. It confounds common sense. Would you have asked

:22:06.:22:12.

what it was about? If you are the head honcho in any organisation, it

:22:12.:22:16.

is something I worked out quickly as a rookie Home Secretary, when

:22:16.:22:20.

somebody passes you half a piece of information, you have to think, why

:22:20.:22:26.

are they telling me that? Father a covering their backsides? What is

:22:26.:22:33.

the rest of the story? If I survived for the time I did, it was

:22:33.:22:38.

partly because I got some finely tuned and 10 I, when the bell

:22:38.:22:42.

weather went off in my head. He is only defence is to say, and he has

:22:42.:22:49.

said this on occasion, as director of BBC vision, had he got involved,,

:22:49.:22:54.

which was not his role, he can argue that there are Chinese walls

:22:54.:22:59.

and that he should not ask. But in this case, how can one disbelieve

:22:59.:23:04.

him? He has said it and said it again. It remains hard to believe

:23:04.:23:09.

that he either didn't ask or didn't know. If you say that to someone

:23:09.:23:12.

who is the former editor of BBC Newsnight who has been around for

:23:12.:23:18.

40 years, you will not think it is about Jimmy Savile's curtains.

:23:18.:23:21.

will be listening to the select committee questions throughout the

:23:21.:23:25.

programme. Now, Jack Straw has had an action-

:23:25.:23:29.

packed career - Justice Secretary, Home Secretary, Commons Leader and

:23:29.:23:33.

most importantly, Foreign Secretary before, during and after the war in

:23:33.:23:38.

Iraq. It was the most high-profile of his many Cabinet posts, and

:23:38.:23:43.

between 2002 and 2003, he seems to be almost permanently on the

:23:43.:23:46.

airwaves, doggedly defending the hugely controversial decision to

:23:46.:23:49.

deploy British troops against the Saddam Hussein regime. But what did

:23:49.:23:56.

he really think about the war? I will ask him in a moment.

:23:56.:24:02.

In a moment, I will be asking the Foreign Secretary how much longer...

:24:02.:24:08.

We are joined now by Jack Straw, the Foreign Secretary. I have just

:24:08.:24:13.

been talking to Jack Straw. Jack Straw. Foreign Secretary and,

:24:13.:24:16.

during the build-up to the war in Iraq, Minister for the Today

:24:16.:24:21.

programme. His job, to explain the case for military action, ideally

:24:21.:24:25.

with a second UN resolution, if not, without one. But was his heart

:24:25.:24:29.

really in it? We interviewed him dozens of times during the run-up

:24:29.:24:34.

to the war. He was always putting a strong case, but I got the sense

:24:34.:24:41.

that it was a strong case for what became known as the second

:24:41.:24:47.

resolution. My reading of Jack Straw at the time was that he

:24:47.:24:51.

believed that and containment and inspection was a genuine option.

:24:51.:24:57.

But when it came to it, was he actually in the loop? It emerged

:24:57.:25:04.

after the war in the various inquiries that some of the most

:25:04.:25:06.

important telegrams passing between Downing Street and the White House,

:25:06.:25:12.

where the real decisions were being made for, never went anywhere near

:25:12.:25:22.
:25:22.:25:24.

Jack Straw. After the war, those around Jack Straw described how

:25:24.:25:29.

they felt. The but Jack Straw's critics say that interpretation is

:25:29.:25:39.
:25:39.:25:57.

That is why some think Jack Straw's claimed that he could have stopped

:25:57.:26:07.
:26:07.:26:22.

the war by resigning if the second So how will history judge Jack

:26:22.:26:32.
:26:32.:26:45.

Straw's roar in the build-up to the You know what, we got it wrong. I

:26:45.:26:50.

apologised. I made a mistake. I regret what I did. Yet there are

:26:50.:26:53.

those who believe Jack Straw went further than most in questioning

:26:53.:26:57.

the wisdom of the war. It is interesting when you look become in

:26:57.:27:03.

the record, that there is one voice that continuously asks - why are we

:27:03.:27:08.

focusing on Iraq and why are we focusing on something we are doing

:27:08.:27:12.

now. There the problem has been going on for a decade. The one

:27:12.:27:17.

voice you heard asking, why Iraq, why now, is Straw's? Jack Straw is

:27:17.:27:23.

still with us. You open the chapter in Iran in your book by saying "You

:27:23.:27:29.

could have prevented the UK's involvement in the process."?

:27:29.:27:34.

Yfrpblgts yes because if I resigned, as a matter of arithmetic, there

:27:34.:27:37.

wouldn't have been a majority. I don't say it in a self-serving way.

:27:37.:27:41.

It was a matter of fact. I was aware of the murder of

:27:41.:27:44.

responsibilities on me at that time. Does that trouble you? Of course it

:27:44.:27:49.

does. Anybody with that degree of responsibility is going to be

:27:49.:27:52.

troubled by the decision they make. But do I think that I made the

:27:52.:27:55.

wrong decision at the time on the basis of the information that we

:27:55.:28:01.

had, no I don't. That's something I have to live with. Although,

:28:01.:28:11.
:28:11.:28:15.

throughout, on the bits I have seen, Kevin March, the former editor of

:28:15.:28:18.

the Today programme at the time is correct to say my whole efforts and

:28:19.:28:23.

I may also say Colin Powell's were corrected towards getting that

:28:23.:28:33.
:28:33.:28:57.

You expect the Foreign Secretary to be in full possession of their

:28:57.:29:01.

faculties and to know what they are doing. I was responsible as anybody

:29:01.:29:08.

else for the decision to go to wr. I deeply regret it and I regret it

:29:08.:29:14.

more, to find out that the whole basis to go to war was based on

:29:14.:29:19.

the... That is with hindsight. were working towards a second

:29:19.:29:24.

resolution and events conspired and bf all, Roman Shirokov's decision

:29:24.:29:31.

to say he would veto a second resolution -- President Chirac's

:29:31.:29:36.

decision. I don't understand why Chirac did that. If he had come on

:29:36.:29:40.

board we would have resolved it peacefully. He didn't. And did you

:29:40.:29:44.

then at any point feel - I should resign? Not at that stage. Earlier

:29:44.:29:49.

on, before we got a UN resolution, much earlier, I'd thought about it.

:29:49.:29:53.

But anyway we got the first resolution, a critical one, 1441.

:29:53.:29:58.

And then - I mean one of the reasons I became so sceptical about

:29:58.:30:02.

military action in respect of Iran, however, is you have to learn from

:30:02.:30:06.

these experiences and if you have a strategy of diplomacy, backed by

:30:07.:30:11.

the threat or possibly the use of force, you have to be alive to the

:30:11.:30:17.

fact that as you go down these tracks, the gate-marked piece gets

:30:17.:30:23.

narrower and the gate-marked wall gets wider. That's the lesson from

:30:23.:30:27.

history. What about when Robin Cooke resigned? Did it make you

:30:27.:30:31.

reconsider? By that time, in a sense, it was too late. It is never

:30:31.:30:36.

too late to resign. I personally was committed. I was sceptical of

:30:37.:30:39.

Robin's reasons. He had been belligerent about Saddam's threat

:30:39.:30:43.

when he had been Foreign Secretary. He then came to a view that the

:30:43.:30:45.

intelligence didn't suggest the level of threat that we thought.

:30:45.:30:53.

What swung me, actually, was a report that Hans Blix did, 170-odd

:30:53.:30:57.

pages, saying it was suggested that Saddam still had all sorts of

:30:57.:31:01.

weapons of mass destruction, biological and chemical weapons and

:31:01.:31:06.

that was presented at the last crucial Security Council meeting on

:31:06.:31:11.

7th March. It was that that - I swung one way, whilst Robin, my

:31:11.:31:15.

good friend, swung the other way. Obviously domestically, I remember

:31:15.:31:18.

it so well, at the time, it was so difficult and tense as people were

:31:18.:31:23.

deciding what they were going to do. You say in your book that if the

:31:23.:31:27.

handling of Iraq went wrong, you know some are licking their lips at

:31:27.:31:34.

the possibility of ray gem change closer to home. I said it to Tony

:31:34.:31:40.

in early March. Who was licking his lips? Various people inside...

:31:40.:31:43.

Gordon Brown? Indeed. People in the Labour Cabinet as well as outside,

:31:43.:31:48.

of course. I had warned Tony about that prospect the previous July as

:31:48.:31:50.

well. Do you think Gordon Brown ever considered not supporting the

:31:50.:31:54.

war as a way of unseating Tony Blair? No, I don't. I think he was

:31:54.:31:59.

alive to the fact that if it went badly wrong, he would be the

:31:59.:32:02.

beneficiary. I had no evidence whatsoever to suggest he actively

:32:02.:32:06.

thought that he would move then - indeed he was party to many of the

:32:06.:32:10.

Cabinet decisions leading up to the war. At this time, at that point,

:32:10.:32:14.

when it came to changover here, you were convinced of Gordon Brown's

:32:14.:32:19.

suitibility? I was. I men there was a history - because Tony and I

:32:19.:32:24.

Frankly fell out, we fell out principally over foreign policies

:32:24.:32:28.

in the Middle East. I had no reason to think that Gordon could not do

:32:28.:32:32.

as good a job as Prime Minister as he had done as Chancellor. I'm

:32:32.:32:36.

afraid a lot of us were proved wrong on in a, including me. Right,

:32:36.:32:42.

you were his campaign manager. was, I was. I mean, we have seen a

:32:42.:32:47.

lot of Gordon, there is one side of him utterly charming, intelligent,

:32:47.:32:51.

bright, engaged. The problem was, it turned out, that he wasn't able

:32:51.:32:55.

to be a leader and make those crucial decisions. You never, in

:32:55.:32:58.

the end know about that sort of thing until people are tested. Both

:32:58.:33:03.

ways. You have people who are unlikely to be leaders like clement

:33:03.:33:09.

Attlee. He turned out to be really good. The reverse is true. Thank

:33:09.:33:13.

you investment sometimes political debate generates more heat than

:33:13.:33:16.

light but one of the most important current debates is how we can

:33:16.:33:20.

ensure generating both. Britain is running dangerously low on power.

:33:20.:33:25.

It was the conclusion of the energy regulator's report which warned of

:33:25.:33:28.

unprecedented challenges with a risk of a short fall in electricity

:33:28.:33:31.

supply by 2015. Nuclear power is supposed to be playing a key role

:33:31.:33:36.

in keeping the lights on in future but the proportion of electricity

:33:36.:33:41.

we generate from nuclear energy has fallen from one-quarter to 16%.

:33:41.:33:45.

Another seven nuclear power stations are due to close by 2023.

:33:45.:33:49.

Why not build more nuclear power stations to replace them? New clear

:33:49.:33:52.

power might be low carbon and reliable but is expensive and takes

:33:52.:33:56.

a long time to deliver. Guaranteed price for nuclear-generated

:33:56.:34:00.

activity has not been enough to ensure investment from the private

:34:00.:34:06.

sector. German companies E.ON and RWE pulled out of nuclear rebuilds

:34:06.:34:09.

earlier this year. The Coalition Government has promised not to

:34:09.:34:12.

subsidise new new clear power plants but now there's pecklation

:34:12.:34:17.

they might be willing to underwrite construction costs overruns. That

:34:17.:34:21.

could cost meltdown in the coalition. The Liberal Democrats'

:34:21.:34:26.

Ed Davey says unless they can be priced competitively, they will not

:34:26.:34:30.

proceed. This morning the head of EDF planning to build new nuclear

:34:30.:34:36.

power stations, told MPs he would go ahead if the price was right and

:34:36.:34:40.

clear. Without clarity we will not invest. It is pretty simple. We

:34:40.:34:45.

have to trust ourselves. It is not an negotiation between us and the

:34:45.:34:51.

Government. It's not us trying to twist the arm of the Government.

:34:51.:34:58.

It's just the opcy. It's about building together the solutions.

:34:58.:35:02.

Win-win solutions. As investors it is a big investment, a long-term

:35:02.:35:05.

investment. It's a major investment. We need clarity about the returns.

:35:05.:35:09.

It has to be fair for the investors. And with me now are the

:35:09.:35:14.

Conservative MP, David more is and the leader Green Party Natalie bent.

:35:14.:35:18.

Welcome. -- David Morris. What is the risk of an energy crisis?

:35:19.:35:23.

think it is real risk. I said two years ago. If we don't go into

:35:23.:35:26.

nuclear power now, there will be power cuts in the next ten years.

:35:26.:35:29.

What do you say to that? It seems fairly immediate and urge snepbt

:35:30.:35:33.

There is the need for rgeebt action which is one of the reasons that

:35:33.:35:37.

nuclear is not answer. The kind of nuclear plant we are talking bthe

:35:37.:35:42.

last two built have taken 14 and 17 to come online, double the original

:35:42.:35:47.

budget and the current two being built are delayed and going much

:35:47.:35:51.

over budget. Nuclear is not the answer to energy needs. What this

:35:51.:35:55.

Government is failing to do is energy conservation and looking at

:35:55.:35:59.

the renewable reliable energy sources we need. What percentage of

:35:59.:36:05.

energy do we need to generate from nuclear? At least another 10% in

:36:05.:36:09.

the mix. Natalie bent has said we'll not have any online. If you

:36:09.:36:11.

are saying there is an energy crisis come down the track in the

:36:12.:36:16.

next few years, what is going to happen in between This is why the

:36:16.:36:19.

Government is intimating underwriting builds. We have eight

:36:19.:36:22.

sites around the country. There will be a nuclear power station

:36:22.:36:26.

built on each one of those sites, that is all it has been foot-

:36:26.:36:29.

printed foor. I think we should start sooner rather than later.

:36:29.:36:34.

That way we know we'll meet the gap. You are going to offer a subsidy to

:36:34.:36:36.

private companies to build nuclear plants? My understand something

:36:36.:36:40.

there will be an underwriting. As you heard on the footage from the

:36:40.:36:44.

Select Committee, it is not a done deal but they want it build power

:36:44.:36:49.

stations, we need the energy. Let's get on with it. You will break the

:36:49.:36:52.

coalition agreement. It said firmly there will not be any Government

:36:52.:36:56.

subsidy of new nuclear power stations. I would love to see that

:36:56.:36:59.

coalition agreement broken on that point because we need the energy.

:36:59.:37:02.

You are saying it is going to be broken, that's what you have heard,

:37:02.:37:07.

they are going to do a U-turn? looks to me as if there will be an

:37:07.:37:10.

underwriting policy going on. That's for the Secretary of State

:37:10.:37:15.

to answer, not myself. You would have to ask him. But that's my

:37:15.:37:18.

understanding. Underwriting construction costs is a subsidy,

:37:18.:37:23.

isn't it? It can be. Personally I would go for it. The economics of

:37:23.:37:26.

nuclear power generation are different from those of hydrocarbon

:37:26.:37:29.

generation which is the capital costs are much higher but the

:37:29.:37:33.

running costs are much lower than conventional hydrocarbon generation.

:37:33.:37:36.

I think we need it. With great respect to the Green Party, floss

:37:36.:37:42.

way in which, inhefrpbtly unreliable wind turbines and other

:37:42.:37:47.

forms can do anything but supplement. -- inherently

:37:47.:37:52.

unreliable. But not replace hydrocarbons. We need to go to the

:37:52.:37:55.

underwriting point. What does it mean? It means writing an open

:37:55.:38:00.

cheque for the nuclear industry. It is what it would mean doing for

:38:00.:38:03.

foreign murlt national companies, to say - whatever the costs we will

:38:03.:38:08.

pay it. -- multinational. Isn't that true?. If you underwrite the

:38:08.:38:12.

costs looking at the two stations being built they have overrun

:38:12.:38:16.

already to a tune of a couple of billion pounds. In this case, if we

:38:16.:38:20.

underwrite them, it'll be the taxpayer. The sit zevens our

:38:20.:38:24.

country need power. The only way is by building nuclear power stations.

:38:24.:38:29.

-- the citizens of our country. It is the way we'll make the angments

:38:29.:38:33.

for shortages to come together. -- arrangements. So it is worth it.

:38:33.:38:38.

my opinion it is. We need power and energy conservation. If you look at

:38:38.:38:42.

the House of Lords report, it says the Government's Energy Bill is

:38:42.:38:46.

failing it tackle demand. Let's get back it Jack Straw's point. Are you

:38:46.:38:49.

saying that renewable energies can replace what nuclear would in the

:38:49.:38:54.

future in terms of keeping the lights on? Xctsly. These are as

:38:54.:38:59.

reliable as a set of renewable sources. These are reliable. --

:38:59.:39:03.

exactly. There is nonsense about wind power. It has been looked at.

:39:03.:39:10.

Wind power is reliable. It has been said it is reliable. They are

:39:10.:39:15.

solvable through renewable sources. But with all due respect, can it

:39:15.:39:18.

supply the amount of energy we need? Nowhere near it. There are

:39:18.:39:22.

two new clear power stations in my constituentcy. When they are both

:39:22.:39:28.

going at full pelt, it is 6% of our National Grid. Feverry wind turbine

:39:29.:39:33.

on and off shore blew at the same time, you are talking about 10% of

:39:33.:39:38.

of our energy at the moment. If you invest in renewables, instead of

:39:38.:39:42.

nuclear, you can raise it vastly. Do you believe, if the investment

:39:42.:39:47.

is there, if we threw the money at renewables and took a GM bell, it

:39:47.:39:52.

would be a gamble, wouldn't it? don't accept that. Germany has

:39:53.:39:57.

decided to abandon nuclear power generation. It is facing an energy

:39:57.:40:00.

crisis. It is facing huge transmission costs from where the

:40:00.:40:07.

energy is being generated, which is on the Baltic coast, down to its

:40:07.:40:10.

industrial heartlines. And the energy is a higher cost. Don't

:40:10.:40:14.

forget for all that we label wind power as environmentally friendly,

:40:14.:40:19.

there are huge environmental issues and planning arguments, just as

:40:19.:40:24.

many in aggregate about wind turbines as there are about nuclear

:40:24.:40:31.

four pants. But could it place? Germany is plavening to go entirely

:40:31.:40:35.

renew ab. I trust the German engineers to work it out. -- the

:40:35.:40:41.

Jeremy is planning to go entirely renewable. They are facing higher

:40:41.:40:45.

and higher energy costs and they'll see a flight of manufacturing to

:40:45.:40:48.

Eastern Europe or elsewhere in the world. Watch this spai, I promise

:40:48.:40:52.

you and look at the debates taking place in Germany. -- watch this

:40:52.:40:56.

space. It is true what Jack is saying and the Germans are looking

:40:56.:41:01.

at buying energy off EDF. That says it all. We have seen big rises in

:41:01.:41:06.

energy costs in the UK because we are dependent on hydrocarbons, gas

:41:06.:41:11.

particularly and prices are rising. Wind solar tidal. We know exactly

:41:11.:41:15.

what the fuel is going to cost forever, zero. And that, of course

:41:15.:41:20.

is a big concern to viewers, the rising cost of energy? I'm in the

:41:20.:41:24.

against having some wind power and tidal power if you can harness it,

:41:24.:41:29.

but it is easier said and than done on a major scale, but nuclear is a

:41:29.:41:34.

very important part... Why didn't Labour sign up to it properly teted.

:41:34.:41:37.

I seem it remember they didn't exactly commit themselves --

:41:37.:41:42.

properly at the time. We should have done. There were too many

:41:43.:41:46.

arguments. And Ed Miliband should take responsibility. I don't know

:41:46.:41:50.

about Ed. In my view we should have been much more clear-sighted about

:41:51.:41:54.

it. This Government is doing the same. Not particularly clear. Do

:41:54.:41:58.

you blame the coalition? If it had been a Conservative Government I'm

:41:58.:42:02.

sure we would have had nuclear power programmes rolled out and I'm

:42:02.:42:07.

certain if there is a Conservative Government at the next election

:42:07.:42:11.

that is what happened. What do you say to Ed Davey? Get them built

:42:11.:42:21.
:42:21.:42:24.

Why do politicians like to talk tough on crime? David Cameron tried

:42:24.:42:27.

to break that mould with his so- called "hug a hoodie" speech,

:42:27.:42:31.

although he never used those words. Yesterday, the Prime Minister tried

:42:31.:42:35.

to chart a change of direction. It opened another chapter in recent

:42:35.:42:39.

political rhetoric on a crime. need to be tough on crime, tough on

:42:39.:42:44.

the causes of crime. The old choice between social and individual

:42:44.:42:48.

responsibility is no longer valid. We need an approach that both meets

:42:48.:42:52.

the need to protect the public and recognises the link between the

:42:52.:42:55.

conditions in which the young people are brought up and the

:42:55.:43:01.

propensity to turn to crime. opponents say there are too many

:43:01.:43:08.

people in prison. I agree. Too many people imprisoned in their own

:43:08.:43:12.

homes, afraid to go out in case they are attacked or their homes

:43:12.:43:22.
:43:22.:43:27.

are burgled. Those are the people I want to set free. Let's be clear.

:43:27.:43:33.

Prison works. When you see a child walking down a street, hoody up,

:43:33.:43:39.

head down, moody, swaggering, dominating the pavement, think what

:43:39.:43:48.

has brought that child to that moment. Lock them up, or let them

:43:48.:43:53.

out. Blend the criminal or blame society. Be tough or act soft. I

:43:53.:43:56.

have been trying to break out of this sterile debate and show a new

:43:56.:44:02.

way forward, tough, but intelligent. The former Home Secretary Jack

:44:02.:44:05.

Straw is still here, and we are joined by a former Cameron

:44:05.:44:08.

speechwriter Danny Krueger, who wrote the speech associated with

:44:08.:44:12.

the "hug a hoodie" mantra, although those words were never uttered by

:44:12.:44:18.

David Cameron. Times have changed. The difference between those

:44:18.:44:23.

speeches is stark. Are you disappointed? It is not, actually.

:44:23.:44:27.

On Sunday, it looked like he would be coming down very hard. In isn't

:44:27.:44:32.

that what he wanted? Actually, the speech he gave yesterday was a much

:44:32.:44:36.

more nuanced message, which reflects a lot of the messages he

:44:36.:44:40.

has been giving out since he became party leader. When young people

:44:40.:44:45.

cross the line, it is important that the law is upheld. He makes no

:44:45.:44:50.

bones about that. But they also has to be an understanding of how

:44:50.:44:56.

people commit a crime, and that it is not simply enough to have a

:44:56.:44:59.

deterrent to prevent them. But is it not as a result of pressure from

:44:59.:45:06.

the backbenches saying, you don't sound tough enough on crime, and he

:45:06.:45:11.

is responding to that? He will always be sensitive to that, as he

:45:11.:45:16.

should be. The public care deeply about crime levels. Crime has

:45:16.:45:24.

fallen in the last year. It is a long-term trend. And he has work to

:45:24.:45:28.

do on that, but he believes in a tough law and order approach. But

:45:28.:45:31.

he also understands that rehabilitation has to be part of

:45:31.:45:35.

the picture. It seems to be less about crime policy and more about

:45:35.:45:39.

part positioning. The Conservatives felt at that time that they need to

:45:39.:45:43.

appear more compassionate, and law and order was the prism through

:45:43.:45:46.

which they would achieve that. Labour did the same when they

:45:46.:45:53.

wanted to appear tougher on crime. You were the conduit. It is less

:45:53.:45:57.

about the policies themselves. Would you agree? It is difficult to

:45:57.:46:03.

get two ideas in a headline? yet you do need both things,

:46:03.:46:07.

discipline and understanding. Sometimes the new ones goes one way

:46:07.:46:11.

and sometimes the other. Often, the media decide which way the story is

:46:11.:46:15.

spun. In the case of "hug a hoodie", there was no intention to appear

:46:15.:46:22.

soft on crime. But they did want to appear compassionate. He still does.

:46:22.:46:25.

Tough and intelligent, how different is that from tough on

:46:25.:46:30.

crime, tough on the causes of crime? In it is not different. The

:46:30.:46:34.

Conservatives traditionally had a reputation for being bone Headley

:46:34.:46:38.

hard on crime. Labour are traditionally seen as too soft on

:46:38.:46:44.

crime. So of course, Labour leaders will try and deal with a

:46:45.:46:48.

harbourside and conservative leaders will be softer. Except when

:46:48.:46:52.

times get tough, and then everybody wants to look tough. But don't

:46:52.:46:55.

underestimate the concern of the British public. People really worry

:46:55.:47:02.

about crime. It is great that since 1995, and I am happy to concede

:47:02.:47:07.

this, the decline in crime started under Michael Howard and

:47:07.:47:10.

accelerated under successive Labour Home Secretaries. Crime levels are

:47:10.:47:16.

now about half where they were. In terms of the soft side, far fewer

:47:16.:47:22.

young people are going into crime now, and that is due to the success

:47:22.:47:25.

partly of schools' policies, part but partly of our youth justice

:47:25.:47:31.

policies. You don't see this in the papers, but they have been very

:47:31.:47:37.

good. At the same time, yes, we have got a lot of people locked up

:47:37.:47:44.

in prison, but a fifth per head of population what they have in the US.

:47:44.:47:50.

But if you are calling for longer sentences, which was part of the

:47:50.:47:55.

speech, you will need more prison places. That is the Achilles heel

:47:55.:47:58.

of this government, because they have cut the number of police

:47:58.:48:03.

officers. Kenneth Clarke, in a moment of pure adoration, as

:48:03.:48:07.

Justice Secretary, handed over a large chunk of the Ministry of

:48:08.:48:11.

Justice's budget back to the Treasury. It was a crazy thing to

:48:11.:48:15.

do, and we are now reaping the whirlwind from budget cuts which

:48:15.:48:20.

were unsustainable. There will be problems in the prisons. Prison

:48:20.:48:24.

numbers will not fall by cutting sentences or sending less people to

:48:24.:48:28.

prison, they will fall if we prevent people going back to prison.

:48:28.:48:38.
:48:38.:48:41.

The real scandal is the reoffending rates. Two-thirds of prisoners who

:48:41.:48:47.

reoffend once they come out. That was talked about by David Cameron.

:48:47.:48:52.

This rehabilitation revolution, no party has ever committed itself to

:48:52.:48:58.

it. I come back to this idea that when the going gets tough, that is

:48:58.:49:05.

shelved. It needn't be. This Government is uniquely committed to

:49:05.:49:09.

rehabilitation. It understands that it is not just about the criminal

:49:09.:49:15.

justice system or making twixt the sentencing, it is about involving

:49:15.:49:18.

charities and working with ex- offenders. There is a genuine

:49:18.:49:23.

commitment to make sure there is greater emphasis on that. Dear

:49:23.:49:28.

Annie point on which I disagree with you is the suggestion that the

:49:28.:49:31.

Conservatives have a monopoly on this. They don't. Everybody is

:49:31.:49:35.

searching for the Holy Grail on rehabilitation because if you can

:49:35.:49:43.

divert people from crime, it is better for society. It requires a

:49:43.:49:48.

lot of effort. Now, bovine TB is issued problem

:49:49.:49:51.

for farmers. There has been completely evidence over the years

:49:51.:49:54.

about whether badgers are responsible for spreading the

:49:54.:49:58.

disease. Last year, the government announced a cull of thousands of

:49:58.:50:03.

badgers in pilot areas. That cull was supposed to begin imminently,

:50:03.:50:05.

but the Environment Secretary Owen Patterson just told the Commons

:50:05.:50:10.

that it will now be delayed until next summer. I know this will be

:50:10.:50:14.

disappointing for many, particularly those farmers in the

:50:14.:50:20.

two pilot areas. But I support the decision of the NFU to delay the

:50:20.:50:28.

start of the coming operations. -- the come in operations. There is no

:50:28.:50:34.

change to the government's policy. We remain committed to it, but we

:50:34.:50:40.

must ensure that we work with the NFU to get the delivery right.

:50:40.:50:44.

are joined now by the chief executive of the RSPCA. Your

:50:44.:50:51.

reaction? I am delighted that we are not killing the badgers, but I

:50:51.:50:55.

am disappointed that we are still seeing the Government committed to

:50:55.:51:01.

a policy which lacks compassion. How do you deal with this?

:51:01.:51:07.

vaccinate the badgers, as the Welsh Government are doing, and you press

:51:07.:51:11.

forward urgently in Brussels to get the vaccination of cattle approved.

:51:11.:51:15.

I was there with Brian May a week ago. There is a lack of effort by

:51:15.:51:21.

the Government to get this done. Will the vaccination work? That is

:51:21.:51:25.

the way we have tackled every disease in animals or human beings.

:51:25.:51:29.

It will work for the badgers and for the cows. But while we wait for

:51:29.:51:33.

the go-ahead for that, what happens in the meantime? Farmers still have

:51:33.:51:38.

the worry of their livestock being affected. The number of cows being

:51:38.:51:42.

affected has fallen for the last three years, because by a security

:51:42.:51:46.

has been improved. If you don't stress the cattle, they are less

:51:47.:51:56.
:51:57.:51:58.

susceptible to the disease. Is your objection to culling badgers on the

:51:58.:52:02.

basis of the animals themselves, or because you don't think the cull

:52:02.:52:09.

will stop the spread of bovine TB? The RSPCA is a science led,

:52:09.:52:14.

evidence based charity. The scientists say that the review

:52:14.:52:17.

under the last government spent ten years looking at this. It is the

:52:17.:52:21.

only peer reviewed piece of science, and it said the badgers are

:52:21.:52:25.

marginal in bovine TB. So the RSPCA and bobs that position. We care as

:52:25.:52:30.

much about the cows as we do the badgers. I also care about the

:52:30.:52:35.

dairy farmers. They are being led up a blind alley here. But it is

:52:35.:52:39.

still a factor, even if it is marginal. Until vaccination comes

:52:39.:52:44.

on board, the reports we hear from the Government say that the number

:52:44.:52:47.

of badgers is greater than we thought. Wouldn't a cull be

:52:47.:52:51.

sensible? No, because the badgers are not the prime cause of the

:52:51.:52:55.

transmission of the disease. We need better by a security, and

:52:55.:53:01.

let's vaccinate the badgers. some extent, farmers have been led

:53:01.:53:08.

to the top of the hill. Now there is a delay. I understand that the

:53:08.:53:11.

reason is that there is not enough time to carry out the cull before

:53:11.:53:16.

the breeding season starts for badgers. In terms of decision-

:53:16.:53:22.

making, it does seem incompetent. It is a very difficult policy issue.

:53:22.:53:26.

I chaired the Cabinet committee that discussed the issue of coal

:53:26.:53:33.

versus vaccination in the closing years of the last government under

:53:33.:53:41.

Labour. It was an electrifying debate. It was interesting talking

:53:41.:53:47.

to lots of farmers who have got couple, hard-boiled farmers who are

:53:47.:53:52.

not bothered about badgers, their opinions have shifted from wanting

:53:52.:53:56.

to shoot them dead to a much more nuanced position of saying actually,

:53:56.:54:03.

I am not sure that shooting them will work. For and that is for all

:54:03.:54:07.

sorts of complicated, but well- established reasons. Vaccination is

:54:07.:54:11.

probably the answer. It a lot of farmers have rejected the coal and

:54:11.:54:14.

vaccinated their badgers. There is a massive groundswell of opinion

:54:14.:54:18.

here. The key test which differentiates between the cow that

:54:18.:54:22.

has been vaccinated or infected is moving forward. Let's get that done

:54:22.:54:27.

and vaccinate the creatures. Save life, don't take it. Will you

:54:27.:54:30.

persuade the government to drop it? I think the Government will listen

:54:30.:54:34.

to public opinion. So, back to the media select

:54:34.:54:38.

committee, where George Entwistle has now finished giving evidence.

:54:38.:54:41.

Towards the end of that session, he was pressed again on what he knew

:54:41.:54:45.

about the investigation. She surely you can see that even though you

:54:45.:54:50.

might not have enough to stand up a programme legally, it may still

:54:50.:54:53.

apply that it would not be appropriate to start showing

:54:53.:55:00.

tribute programmes about someone? As I said, I recognise that our

:55:00.:55:05.

systems need to be more carefully calibrated for dealing with the

:55:05.:55:08.

outcome of investigations that don't proceed to broadcast.

:55:08.:55:12.

thing was in my mind that if they had serious allegations, it would

:55:12.:55:15.

end up being broadcast and I would be told about it and act

:55:15.:55:19.

accordingly. I recognise that we need to reflect on making sure that

:55:20.:55:27.

we have a culture that does not run the risk of what happened happening.

:55:27.:55:31.

Let's talk to our political correspondent. I understand he has

:55:31.:55:36.

finished giving evidence. Can you give us the latest? George

:55:36.:55:39.

Entwistle came out of here a short time ago. He was met by a barrage

:55:39.:55:45.

of questions along the lines of, is your job on the line? It was a very

:55:45.:55:51.

difficult session for Mr Entwistle, for the BBC and in particular for

:55:51.:55:55.

Newsnight and their editor, Peter Rippon. Listening to the tone of

:55:55.:55:58.

the questioning, MPs were incredulous at the lack of

:55:58.:56:04.

knowledge about details of why the Newsnight investigation was dropped,

:56:04.:56:08.

why they didn't pursue the matter further, about the whole Saville

:56:08.:56:12.

saga, about why young girls were apparently bussed in to Top Of The

:56:12.:56:16.

Pops, about the number of people that were abused. And again and

:56:16.:56:20.

again, Mr Entwistle said, I have no recollection. Particularly

:56:20.:56:23.

difficult for the editor of Newsnight, Peter Rippon, because

:56:23.:56:28.

George Entwistle said he would not have dropped the programme. He was

:56:28.:56:31.

surprised that no decision was taken to continue with it, and said

:56:31.:56:36.

he could not comment on Peter Rippon's "state of mind" when he

:56:36.:56:40.

chose not to press ahead with the programme, and said the BBC would

:56:40.:56:44.

get Nick Pollard's report and then look at whether there should be any

:56:44.:56:49.

disciplinary proceedings. For all the blame that may or may be may

:56:49.:56:53.

not be attached to Peter Rippon, the buck will stop with the

:56:53.:56:58.

director general. He himself said at one point, "I take full

:56:58.:57:01.

responsibility for all BBC journalism". So if MPs are not

:57:01.:57:06.

impressed, his head will be on the block. The says the buck stops with

:57:06.:57:10.

him. What about the conversation between himself and Helen Boaden

:57:10.:57:14.

when he was head of vision, the ten-second conversation when he did

:57:14.:57:18.

not ask what that Jimmy Savile investigation by Newsnight was

:57:18.:57:23.

about? His defence was that he did not want to interfere in another

:57:23.:57:27.

programme's business. He wanted there to be an editorial buffer

:57:27.:57:31.

between the two programmes. He said to Helen Boaden briefly at this

:57:31.:57:38.

charity lunch, keep me updated, and that was it. MPs spoke about the

:57:38.:57:42.

amazing lack of curiosity that here he was, about a book out two

:57:42.:57:45.

tribute programmes to Jimmy Savile, and along comes the director of

:57:45.:57:48.

news and says, this could affect your Christmas schedule, and he did

:57:49.:57:53.

not take it further. If that was part of the disbelief on the part

:57:53.:57:58.

of MPs. They could not understand why on earth he did not pursue it

:57:58.:58:04.

further. What strikes me is, it just has so many echoes of the

:58:04.:58:08.

James Murdoch appearance before exactly the same select committee a

:58:08.:58:11.

few months ago, when again and again, Mr Murdoch said, I don't

:58:11.:58:16.

remember, I don't know. You felt that George Entwistle was being

:58:16.:58:21.

pushed into the same box. We will be reflecting on this throughout

:58:21.:58:24.

programmes today. There is just time before we go to find out the

:58:24.:58:29.

answer to our quiz. The question will was, what has the Education

:58:29.:58:33.

Secretary written to his old head teacher to apologise for? Who said

:58:33.:58:39.

he was an unpleasant brat. Go to the top of the class. That is all

:58:39.:58:43.

for today. Thank you for being our guest of the day and thanks to our

:58:43.:58:48.

other guests. The One O'clock News is starting on BBC One. I will be

:58:48.:58:51.

Jo Coburn is joined former foreign secretary Jack Straw for all the latest political news including MPs' questioning of the BBC Director General about the Jimmy Savile sex abuse scandal.


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