31/10/2012 Daily Politics


31/10/2012

With business minister Michael Fallon, shadow Welsh secretary Owen Smith, and former deputy prime minister Michael Heseltine.


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Transcript


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Good morning. This is the Daily Politics. "Continuing as we are is

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not an acceptable option". So says Tarzan, who has emerged from the

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political jungle to issue a not very pleasant message for the

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government on its economic strategy. He wants bolder action to be taken

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on growth, infrastructure, an airport and energy. We'll be

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finding out exactly what he wants when we talk to Lord Heseltine

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later in the programme. Talking of energy the Conservative

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Energy Minister, John Hayes, appears to have had enough of these.

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But is he blowing just a lot of hot air?

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We'll be looking at the political shenanigans being played out over

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Europe ahead of the vote tonight on the EU budget.

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And forget bob-a-job week, or learning about knots. Politics is

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I used to do Bob Bird job. A way you in the Scouts?

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I was a cub. We showed the wrong wind farms. It

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is the onshore wind farms he has a problem with.

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Yes all that and more coming up in the next 90 minutes of truly

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terrifying TV, which frankly this programme is every week, not just

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on Halloween. And with us for the duration we have Count Dracula and

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Van Helsing. I leave you to decide which is which. The Business

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Minister, Michael Fallon, and the Shadow Welsh Secretary, Owen Smith.

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Welcome to you both. Now first today enough is enough. No we're

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not coming off air now. We're going to talk about wind farms, because

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the Conservative Energy Minister, John Hayes, doesn't appear to like

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them very much. He's apparently ordered a new analysis for the case

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of onshore wind farms which he says should form the basis of future

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government policy, rather than, "a bourgeois left article of faith

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based on some academic perspective". I think you can see where he's

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coming from. Anyway, does he have a point? And is everyone happy? Well

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not his boss, we're told, the Energy Secretary, Ed Davey. And not,

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I suspect the Liberal Democrat MP, Andrew George, who joins us now.

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What is your reaction? I think John is as entertaining as ever with his

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usual panache. Your picture, as you were showing of offshore wind is

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not the issue. We did clarify that. The issue of onshore wind is a bit

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of a dog whistle issue for some Conservatives. They object to the

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matter. The Government policy remains as it is, 20% of energy

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supply from renewable sources by 2020. I thought it was a 30%.

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you are, 30%, it goes up. Be very significant amount of VAT will come

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from wind. Most of it will be wind? The most significant and economic

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the efficient method by which you obtain renewable energy is from the

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wind and onshore wind is the most economic of all. If it is economic,

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why does it need a huge subsidy? does not need a huge subsidy.

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is so economic why does it need a guaranteed twice -- Prize, twice

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the guaranteed rate? It gets a lower subsidy than any renewable

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energy. His is hydro electric power. It gets less than any of the other

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new forms of renewable energy. All I would say is planning matters are

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matters that need to be determined on their merits. How much energy,

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as we speak, is being generated by wind power? At the moment, I do not

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know the actual figure. As we speak at 11:15am this morning is 6%. Your

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target is to get to 30% in eight years. From all renewables.

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most of it will come from wins, can you do that? It is a challenge, but

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it is one the Government wants to take on. Is it a challenge now John

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Hayes has said it is not in your policy any more? He is talking from

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a personal perspective. No, he is the Energy Minister. He is not

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spouting Government policy. What is Government policy on wind farms?

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is to encourage renewables of all kinds, to meet the target Andrew

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has described. You said wind is 6%, it has been increasing over the

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next few years. We do not set a target from each renewable sectors,

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we want them all. Is it Government policy to build a more onshore wind

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farms? These things are determined locally. It is not for the

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Government to determine where a wind farm should be. But whether

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his consent, we welcome the contribution wind makes onshore and

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offshore. The Government policy is for 1000 wind farms. If it is down

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to localism, which is what you seem to be saying, what happened if

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every locality said we do not want to wind farms? How would you need

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your target? There would be the contribution from offshore wind and

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other sources. There are already onshore wind farms, and there will

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be more of them, but it is for the local community to decide if they

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want these things. In some areas of the country, it is windier than

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others. Then there are 3,000 onshore wind turbines at the moment.

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The Government is planning another 4,000. Of course, locals can be

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overruled. I ask again, after John Hayes, is it Government policy to

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build another 4,000 onshore wind farms? It is Government policy to

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encourage onshore, offshore, all types of renewable. We're not

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saying we have to have 4,000 onshore wind farms by a certain

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date, these things have to be determined locally. And locals on

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never overruled in these matters? They can be overruled, but it

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depends on each case, on the merits of each application. They are over

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ruled on they? Of course. So it is not all down to the locals? What

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the Government are doing is undertaking a review as to how we

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ensure the communities that are closest to the wind farms gain

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additional benefit. You have an open goal here. Can you get

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anywhere near your renewable target if you do not build the 4,000 plant

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onshore turbines? That is a target and it is very laudable. You have

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not answered my question. I have wind farms in my constituency...

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Can you meet the target if you do not build 4,000 more onshore wind

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turbines? There are many ways that target can be met. A target of

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4,000 is in the plan, and it is down to the locals to decide.

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Smith, shoot. I am none Budweiser as to the Government's policy.

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thought it was just meat. -- none the wiser. We have Ed Davey saying

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he is in favour of more wind farms and Michael Fallon sitting on the

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fence and getting splinters in the studio. Painful, he's used to that.

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Government policy was to try and increase the volume of onshore wind

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power. We know it is the cheapest and most developed of the renewable

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facilities we have. We know it makes sense. The Government will be

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in power -- were we in power, would be sending more signals we need

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more wind power and need to invest in a renewable sector, apart from

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the shambles from the Tories and the Lib Dems.

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Now the Taxpayers' Alliance have published figures today showing

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that trade unions received �113 million of taxpayer subsidy last

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year in direct payments and through staff being paid to work on union

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business. The unions say this is money well spent with union

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representation helping to reduce absenteeism and increase

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productivity. We asked the TUC to come on and discuss the issue but

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no one was available, we also asked for a pre-recorded interview, but

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no-one was available. No one is at home. But we can now speak to

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Matthew Sinclair, from the Taxpayers' Alliance. How do you get

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to the figure of �113 million? built up by going to public sector

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organisations across the country, NHS trusts, councils, Government

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departments, and asking how many trade union staff they were

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allocating, and what payments they were making. It is an underestimate,

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because a lot of organisations were not recording how much time they

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were giving to the trade unions. The TUC dispute that figure, but

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even if you take the figure at face value, it works at a 25p per public

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sector worker per week. That does not sound like bad value. That is

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an underestimated figure. Look at the 25p a week. What Francis Maude

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wants to cut this to his 0.1% of the public bill. We have huge

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arguments about much smaller sums of money. It is an enormous subsidy.

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In terms of politics, and frees up their resources to campaign on,

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that can buy everything in Westminster and twice over. It is

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an enormous amount of money in a specific interest group. What does

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that interest group do? Is it a waste of money to look after and

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represent employees in the public sector, and of course there are a

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union representatives in the private sector. Is it a waste of

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money, they shouldn't be represented at save the public

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purse a lot of money in terms of dispute resolution, training take

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up and health and safety? I do not think there is anything wrong with

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people being represented. My organisation is to represent the

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taxpayer's interest. But if you are representing someone, it shouldn't

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be paid for by someone else. It Union staff are representing their

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members, they should pay for it. If you are working for the trade union,

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you should be paid for by the trade union. Taxpayers shouldn't have to

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pick up the bill, particularly when unions use resources for strikes,

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fight necessary reforms to pensions and necessary control in public

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spending. There is nothing wrong with a lot of what trade unions do,

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they have a legitimate function, but all those legitimate functions

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are being paid for by taxpayers, which frees up their own resources

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which should be used to pay for things like representation and be

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spent on political campaigns and functions that shouldn't be having

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the bill picked up by taxpayers. New don't disagree with what they

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are doing in terms of representation? Do you agree with

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the research commissioned by the Department for business, that in

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2007, those union representatives save the public purse between 170

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million and 200 million a year. That looks like it is saving money?

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If you look at the kind of estimates being found on official

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estimates of the full scale of this, not just the ones we could pin down

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to specific organisations. And the range is lower than the estimates

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of the cost of this. In terms of cost benefits, unless you take the

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high end of the range, it does not justify this as a spending item.

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Beyond that, a lot of what they are claiming, it will lead to lower

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sick leave, but there is far more time off in the public sector than

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in the private sector and there is also more sick leave. Why don't

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union just pay for this? Public sector and private sector employers

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think it is good use of public and private sector money to facilitate

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the employment of Union... Private sector pay for their own?

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public sector pays for people because they know it saves them

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money. It is not new, this is the second time the TaxPayers' Alliance

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have announced this alleged 113 million in November. It is

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interesting when the governments are in trouble on all sorts of

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issues. Should they be rolling out this 100 and think -- 113 million

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as nonsense. In 2007, they are reviewed it and said it saves them

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money. I don't think the TaxPayers' Alliance are disagreeing the

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functions are useful and could bring down costs to the public

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sector, but why don't the unions' pay for it? It is not like they

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don't have many of their own? theory the unions could pay for it.

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They should. Public sector and private sector employers who pay

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for facility down -- time had done so since the early 1990s when this

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was established in law by the Tory Government in 1992. They have done

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so because they think it is a good use of public or private money.

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They've been think it is good because it allows for proper

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representation of the workforce, a proper channel of engaging with the

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workforce, it reduces costs a recruitment and lost hours,

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sickness. It is clear why they do it. If they did nothing it was

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worthwhile, it would stop. It has got out of hand. What has got out

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of hand? The mound of union activity on the public sector pay

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roll. The school's budget is used to finance teachers who are not

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teaching, but sitting in a union office negotiating on behalf of

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their members but not doing any teaching. The school's budget

:16:05.:16:15.
:16:15.:16:23.

You should be paying teachers to teach, not to sit in a union

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offices. Watch out, animal hunters, Tarzan

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is back. Yes, Michael government intervention Heseltine has returned

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to the police could jungle with his new Treasury Commission report

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which promises to leave no stone unturned. At this moment I shall

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turn to Jo and she will give you an exposition of what is in the

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Heseltine report. But I am lost for words. Our computer has got stuck.

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I have offered to whack it with a spanner but they said no. It is

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probably being powered by windmills which is why we cannot use it.

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Onshore ones. So, Mr Heseltine says, your government does not have a

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strategy for growth. commissioned this report. We asked

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Michael Heseltine to do this. He has come forward with a whole range

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of ideas which we are going to follow up. He wants to go further

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and faster for growth and so do we. You go and have a major

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restructuring of local government. He has put forward different ideas.

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You can go to a unitary authority which is what he is suggesting.

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There is nothing stopping a council orate group of councils coming to

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us and wanting to take out a layer of bureaucracy. He recognises what

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we are doing on local enterprise partnerships as the key to growth.

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We are doing that as well. A un favour of handing 58 billions of

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pounds of Whitehall cash -- are you win favour? We are already handing

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money to cities. We have eight core cities and City deals at the moment.

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We invited 20 to apply in the second wave of this week. He is

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suggesting we should transfer more of the skills budget down from

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central by Jim down to the cities and local enterprise partnerships.

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Are you going to give more power to local enterprise partnerships?

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have already given their money. much? 24 million over the last two

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years. They are getting core funding now. They are coming

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forward with their growth plans. It is for them to tell central

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government what their priorities are. Michael Heseltine, he wants

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them to have 58 billion. That is a different scale. I gave them money

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for their capacities and own resources to finance themselves. He

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says they should have more control over government spending programmes.

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That is only a couple of billion. think it is more than that. Do you

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favour coming out with an aviation policy this side of the election

:19:15.:19:20.

which he has called for? We need to look carefully at the issue of

:19:20.:19:24.

where hub airports should be. We think there should be a hub airport.

:19:24.:19:31.

We think that should not be done by politicians by somebody independent.

:19:31.:19:34.

We have asked Howard Davies. Michael Heseltine is saying it

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should come out before the election. It is a simple question. Do you

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think that should happen on not? are not responding to the entire

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report today. What the Chancellor has said it is he is going to set

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out his response in the Autumn Statement on 6th December and tell

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you what we are going to do with each of the recommendations.

:19:55.:20:00.

Michael Heseltine is impatient for growth and so are we. That is

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because you have not had any. economy is growing now. Where were

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you last week? How since your government came to power we have

:20:11.:20:17.

had 0.6 % growth. Whereas, in June 2010 you predicted almost 6% growth,

:20:17.:20:23.

or the OBR did, say you are out by a factor of 10. It was an

:20:23.:20:28.

independent forecast. But you depend on it. You drop the cuts on

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the basis of a projected 6% growth, you have had a 0.6. I don't think

:20:37.:20:40.

anybody knew just how prolonged the problems in the eurozone would be

:20:40.:20:43.

and some of the fall-off in growth we have had in the rest of the

:20:43.:20:51.

world. Nobody predicted that. come on. The recession lasted

:20:51.:20:54.

longer than anybody thought. It turned out that boom-and-bust was

:20:54.:21:00.

far worse than anybody estimated. The big news is we are growing now.

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All right, are you in favour of an interventionist industrial policy

:21:05.:21:10.

as Michael Heseltine calls? We have an industrial strategy which Vince

:21:10.:21:15.

Cable set out in a speech a month ago. That means more collaboration

:21:15.:21:19.

on research and development in each sector, it means looking at the

:21:19.:21:25.

skills gap in each of the sectors, so yes, we have... Are you in

:21:25.:21:30.

favour of an interventionist policy? I am not sure what the

:21:31.:21:34.

differences. We do not want to pick winners but we want to help each

:21:34.:21:39.

sector pick its own winners and focus on what needs to be done on

:21:39.:21:43.

partnership with government. This is probably your second own goal of

:21:43.:21:48.

the day. I am trying to think of questions to ask you. You must love

:21:48.:21:53.

all this? No, we do not love it. What Heseltine has pointed out is

:21:53.:22:00.

the reality that we do not have a growth strategy in this country. I

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think it is broadly agree with what we have been saying for the last

:22:05.:22:08.

two years which is a, you do need an active industrial strategy. You

:22:08.:22:13.

do need government to intervene. You do need to have not got rid of

:22:13.:22:17.

the RDAs. The supreme irony of Michael Heseltine saying you have

:22:18.:22:26.

got it wrong, you have to have money is spent in the regions.

:22:26.:22:33.

the contrary... He believes you should have an interventionist

:22:33.:22:41.

government. Can I ask you, is a Labour in favour of passing �58

:22:41.:22:44.

billion of Whitehall spending through the local enterprise

:22:44.:22:48.

partnerships? We are in favour of much greater emphasis on regional

:22:48.:22:52.

growth. I understand that, that is like saying you are in favour of

:22:52.:22:58.

motherhood and apple pie. Are you in favour of giving �58 billion of

:22:58.:23:02.

Whitehall cash to the local enterprise partnerships? You would

:23:02.:23:08.

not expect me to say now worth around in favour of 58, 57 off �43

:23:08.:23:12.

billion. What we are in favour of his money being spent at a local

:23:12.:23:18.

level by effective organisations. That is what we had when we had

:23:18.:23:21.

Regional Development agencies right across the country which had real

:23:21.:23:25.

powers and real resources. This is an important point, unfortunately,

:23:25.:23:30.

the government got rid of those things. What Michael Heseltine was

:23:30.:23:35.

saying is they got it wrong. have made a point twice already.

:23:35.:23:40.

I'm sure it is a good point but it is not one I am asking. We will

:23:40.:23:44.

move on. We know when we are beaten. We will be talking to Tarzan

:23:44.:23:49.

himself, Michael Heseltine, live after Prime Minister's Questions.

:23:49.:23:57.

Now, Darth Maul, Greedo and Boba Fett, D you-know-who they are? They

:23:57.:24:02.

are not members of the European Central Bank. Apparently they are

:24:02.:24:06.

something to do with a lucrative movie franchise which started in a

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galaxy far, far away. Star Wars creator George Lucas has sold his

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film production company Lookers fell to the Walt Disney Company in

:24:15.:24:23.

a deal worth �2.5 billion -- Lucasfilm. Is nothing sacred? Some

:24:23.:24:28.

things cannot be bought so cheaply. Let me assure you you will never

:24:28.:24:35.

see this. Stormtroopers! I have one thing to say to Mr Disney, they are

:24:35.:24:40.

not the mugs you are looking for because they are not for sale at

:24:40.:24:46.

any price. But if the force is with you, dear viewer, one of these fine

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interstellar receptacles can be beamed to you at no cost. All you

:24:50.:24:55.

have to do is enter our guest the Year competition. Are we will

:24:55.:25:01.

remind you how to enter in a minute. Let's do a bit of our own time

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travelling. See if you can remember Respect, tolerance, the family, try

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If you are handing on the torch, to give somebody us the opportunity,

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make sure the torches burning To be in with a chance of winning

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an intergalactic Daily Politics mug, send your answer to our special

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quiz e-mail address, [email protected] and you can see

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the full terms and conditions on our website,

:26:36.:26:42.

bbc.co.uk/dailypolitics. Now it is coming up to midday here. Let's

:26:42.:26:47.

take a look at Big Ben. That can only mean one thing, Prime

:26:47.:26:52.

Minister's Questions is on its way. Nick Robinson is already here.

:26:52.:26:56.

Welcome. Tell us about this European vote, there is a big row

:26:56.:27:00.

building up in the Commons today. Those who remember their history

:27:00.:27:05.

will remember in the 1990s, the Tory party pretty much fun apart on

:27:05.:27:09.

the issue of Europe and the Labour Party helped them, even though they

:27:09.:27:13.

were led by an avid pro-European, John Smith. I think the leadership

:27:13.:27:19.

of the Labour Party are inspired by Smith's example, urged by the

:27:19.:27:23.

Guardian editorial today and others, don't fait with the Euro-sceptics

:27:23.:27:27.

and the Tory rebels. The Labour leadership is sane, forget that.

:27:27.:27:32.

Nobody remembered in 1997 that the Labour Party were playing with the

:27:32.:27:36.

Euro-sceptics. They remember the chaos in the Tory ranks. What the

:27:36.:27:41.

Labour Party want today is to try and alive with the Tory rebels and

:27:41.:27:44.

defeat the government on the issue of the EU budget. A what is it they

:27:44.:27:49.

want, freeze on the budget already cut? They want a real-terms cut.

:27:49.:27:53.

The government have talked of the policy of having a real-terms

:27:53.:27:59.

freeze, in other words, goes up with the rate of inflation, but the

:27:59.:28:03.

rebels and Labour Party are saying that is not good enough. It is an

:28:04.:28:07.

argument between you room realism and fundamentalism. The government

:28:07.:28:11.

are saying, of course we would like to cut the budget but we will never

:28:11.:28:15.

get it. We might be able to build an alliance in terms of a real-

:28:15.:28:21.

terms freeze. The rebels are saying, forget that, we want it cut. There

:28:21.:28:24.

are a mix of motives. One is to give the Government a bloody nose

:28:24.:28:28.

and the other is a cost free advertisement that Labour does not

:28:28.:28:32.

want to spend your money. If Labour vote with the rebels, could the

:28:32.:28:36.

government lose? They could if there are enough of them. Into

:28:37.:28:43.

simple terms, government majority of 68, the key is he turns up? Who

:28:43.:28:47.

is in the House of Commons on the relevant day? The second key thing

:28:47.:28:51.

is devoted against the government if you are a Tory or do you

:28:51.:28:56.

abstain? If I was the Tory whips I would say do not put a smile on the

:28:56.:29:05.

face of Mr Bowles and Mr Benn abound tonight. -- Mr balsa and Mr

:29:05.:29:11.

Miliband. Isn't there something you could do like catch-up on eight DVD

:29:11.:29:16.

box set. There are enough rebels on the issue of Europe. All the

:29:16.:29:21.

opposition -- if all the opposition parties were here and if all the

:29:21.:29:24.

rebels vote against the government, the government can be defeated. It

:29:24.:29:29.

does not mean they will be. Labour were responsible for the last time

:29:29.:29:35.

the EU budget was fixed and agreed to a doubling of the contribution,

:29:35.:29:43.

now you are calling for a reduction in the Budget, how does that work?

:29:43.:29:47.

Circumstances have changed. We know that we have got austerity right

:29:47.:29:51.

across Europe. We have governments right across Europe asking people

:29:51.:29:55.

to take tough decisions and tighten their belts and we think it is

:29:55.:29:59.

appropriate that in these changing circumstances, our government

:29:59.:30:08.

should go to Europe. It is smart fiscal policy. If the rest of

:30:08.:30:13.

Europe insists on going ahead with an increase and Mr Cameron wield

:30:13.:30:18.

the veto, will Labour support it? It is a shame we have got to the

:30:18.:30:22.

stage when David Cameron is so isolated in Europe. The Swedes are

:30:22.:30:28.

taking an even tougher line. I have just read what the European

:30:28.:30:35.

Minister has said. They want a bigger cut. So do the Dutch. He is

:30:35.:30:40.

not isolated. That is not the question I asked. If he is forced

:30:40.:30:45.

to stop a real-terms increase going through, we used support him

:30:45.:30:49.

wielding the veto? We will look at that at the time when we see what

:30:49.:30:54.

comes out of the negotiations. you calling for a cut? We are

:30:54.:31:00.

calling for a real-terms cut. there is a real terms increase,

:31:00.:31:07.

which is what the majority want, and Mr Cameron says no, I will veto

:31:07.:31:13.

it, surely biologic if you are calling for a real-terms cut, you

:31:13.:31:18.

should support the veto. Let's see what happens when he comes back to

:31:18.:31:24.

Europe. Can I say, very straight forward. We will be arguing tonight

:31:24.:31:34.
:31:34.:31:44.

for a real terms... I understand Want to pay tribute to those who

:31:44.:31:52.

have lost their lives a deep debt of gratitude. Their dedication,

:31:52.:31:56.

professionalism one never be forgotten by our nation. And our

:31:56.:31:59.

condolences are with their family, friends and colleagues.

:31:59.:32:03.

Our had meetings with ministerial colleagues and others and in

:32:03.:32:07.

additional duties in this house I will have further meetings later in

:32:07.:32:12.

the day. I am sure the house will want to associate itself with the

:32:12.:32:17.

remarks from the Prime Minister of our brave service personnel. Will

:32:17.:32:21.

the Prime Minister confirm if he cannot get a good deal for Britain

:32:21.:32:27.

in the EU budget negotiations, he will use the veto? And reject any

:32:27.:32:37.
:32:37.:32:40.

advice on this matter from those who gave our rebate away? I can

:32:40.:32:44.

absolutely give him that assurance. This Government is taking the

:32:44.:32:48.

toughest line in these budget Nick positions of any Government since

:32:48.:32:54.

we joined the European Union. At best we would like it cuts, at

:32:54.:32:59.

worst, frozen. I am prepared to use the veto if the do not get a deal

:32:59.:33:03.

that is good for Britain. It is within our interest to get a deal

:33:03.:33:07.

because a seven-year freeze would keep bills down compared to annual

:33:07.:33:12.

budgets. Labour's position is a one of opportunism. They gave away half

:33:12.:33:17.

the rebate, sent the Budget through the roof, now they want to posture

:33:17.:33:21.

rather than get a good deal for Britain. We can see right through

:33:22.:33:29.

it. Mr Ed Miliband. Can I stop by joining the Prime Minister are

:33:29.:33:36.

paying tribute to corporal David Hope cannot and corporal Channing

:33:36.:33:41.

day of the Royal Medical Corps. It is a reminder of the danger troops

:33:42.:33:45.

based on a daily basis on our behalf. They both showed the utmost

:33:45.:33:49.

courage and bravery and our condolences go to their family and

:33:49.:33:55.

friends. The Prime Minister has an opportunity to get a mandate from

:33:55.:34:00.

this house for a real-terms reduction in the EU budget which he

:34:00.:34:06.

says he wants over the next seven years. He could take to the talks

:34:07.:34:13.

in Europe. Why is he resisting that opportunity? I think the whole

:34:13.:34:19.

country will see through what is right opportunities and. People

:34:19.:34:23.

have not forgot the fact they gave away half our rebate in one ago as

:34:23.:34:30.

the Asian. They agreed a massive increase on the EU budget under

:34:30.:34:34.

their Government. And they have not even put down their own resolution

:34:34.:34:39.

on this issue. The nation will absolutely see straight through it.

:34:39.:34:45.

He is playing politics, he is not serving the country. Ed Miliband.

:34:45.:34:50.

When it comes to consistency, he seems to have forgotten what he

:34:50.:34:54.

said as leader of the opposition just four months before the last

:34:54.:35:00.

General Election. This is what he said. I would have thought they

:35:00.:35:04.

would be interested what the Prime Minister said when he was leader of

:35:04.:35:11.

the opposition. "at a time when budgets are being cut in the UK,

:35:11.:35:15.

does the Prime Minister agree in reviewing the EU budget, the main

:35:15.:35:23.

purpose should be to push for a real-terms cut". That is what he

:35:23.:35:28.

said in opposition. When it comes to opportunism, this Prime Minister

:35:28.:35:33.

is a gold medallist. At a time when he is cutting it the education

:35:33.:35:40.

budget by 11%, the transport budget by 15% and the police budget by 20%,

:35:40.:35:45.

how can he be giving up on a cut in the EU budget before the talks have

:35:45.:35:50.

begun? We have to make cuts in budgets because we are dealing with

:35:50.:35:57.

a record debt and deficit. If he wants to talk about consistency,

:35:57.:36:01.

perhaps he can explain why his own members of the European Parliament

:36:01.:36:07.

voted against a budget freeze we achieved last year? Perhaps he can

:36:07.:36:10.

explain why the Socialist group in the European Parliament he is such

:36:10.:36:15.

a proud member of, are calling, not for an increase in the Budget, not

:36:15.:36:21.

for a freeze in the Budget, but for a 200 billion euros increase in the

:36:21.:36:26.

Budget. And they want to get rid of the rest of the British rebate. Is

:36:26.:36:36.
:36:36.:36:36.

that his policy? Ed Miliband. good to see the Crimson tide...

:36:36.:36:41.

Order, order. Government backbenchers, including ministers,

:36:41.:36:47.

are preaching majority. They have got to tackle their behavioural

:36:47.:36:53.

problems before it is too late. Ed Miliband. He is getting very angry,

:36:53.:36:57.

maybe that is because he is worried about losing the vote this

:36:57.:37:03.

afternoon. MEPs voted the same as his on the motion before the

:37:03.:37:07.

European Parliament 10 days ago. The reality is commonly cannot

:37:07.:37:11.

convince anyone on Europe. Last year he left the December

:37:11.:37:16.

negotiations with a veto and an agreement a went ahead anyway. He

:37:16.:37:21.

had thrown in the towel before these talks had begun. He cannot

:37:21.:37:23.

convince European leaders comedy cannot convince his own

:37:23.:37:29.

backbenchers. He is weak abroad, he is weak at home, it is John Major

:37:29.:37:36.

all over again. His position is completely incredible. He says he

:37:36.:37:41.

wants a cut in the EU budget, but he does not sanction a veto. We

:37:41.:37:47.

have made it clear we will use the veto, as we have used it before. I

:37:47.:37:52.

will ask him, will you use the veto? Order. I won't be using the

:37:52.:37:58.

veto. I will ask the Prime Minister to respect Parliamentary procedure

:37:58.:38:08.

in these matters. The south-east region is often regarded as the

:38:08.:38:12.

engine driver of the British economy. But the Solent region

:38:12.:38:16.

faces challenges, particularly with the announcement of job losses at

:38:16.:38:21.

Ford last week. Will he agree with me, the case for a city Deal for

:38:21.:38:26.

Southampton and Portsmouth is particularly compelling? I do think

:38:26.:38:30.

it is particularly compelling, we make sure Southampton has a City

:38:30.:38:35.

dealer. I understand they are on the list. The news from Ford was

:38:35.:38:41.

disappointing. It was a blackspot in an otherwise strong performance

:38:41.:38:45.

by the British automotive industry. We will be working with Southampton

:38:45.:38:52.

City Council to help everybody find jobs. May I ask a straightforward

:38:52.:38:59.

question that should command a straightforward answer? In the

:38:59.:39:01.

forthcoming police and crime Commissioner elections, it is

:39:01.:39:06.

predicted the turnout will be as low as 20%. Does the Prime Minister

:39:06.:39:11.

think it gives them Democratic legitimacy? I want the turn out to

:39:11.:39:15.

be as high as possible, but I recognise in new elections for a

:39:15.:39:20.

new post, it is a challenge. It is a challenge when you have dedicated

:39:20.:39:24.

Labour MPs resigning from his house to stand as police and crime

:39:24.:39:31.

commissioners. One thing the commissioner will be able to make

:39:31.:39:41.
:39:41.:39:44.

is that since crime is down by 20%. Lincolnshire has benefited from

:39:44.:39:48.

announcements that will boost the local economy. A Kimberley Clark

:39:48.:39:53.

announced the closure of their factory in Barton-upon-Humber in my

:39:53.:39:58.

constituency with a loss of up to 500 jobs. Can he assure me

:39:58.:40:01.

everything possible will be done by the Government to attract a new

:40:01.:40:06.

business to the area? I can give him that assurance. It is sad news

:40:06.:40:11.

for the workers at Barton-upon- Humber. The local council is

:40:11.:40:15.

working closely with Jobcentre Plus and the company to establish a

:40:15.:40:21.

local task force and the Government will support employees and try and

:40:21.:40:25.

find alternative employment. Following a report in the

:40:25.:40:28.

Hillsborough disaster and the phone hacking scandal, self regulation of

:40:28.:40:34.

the press, by the press is no longer acceptable to the public.

:40:34.:40:39.

More than three-quarters responding to recent polls back an end to

:40:39.:40:42.

media self-regulation. Prime Minister, your ministers have been

:40:42.:40:50.

briefing against Lord leathers and. Whose side are you on? Members must

:40:51.:40:57.

adhere to the proper procedures of this House. I think we should wait

:40:57.:41:01.

for the report to come out. A lot of work has been done. I want to

:41:01.:41:07.

see a robust regulatory system. What happens most of all, as I said

:41:07.:41:10.

in a house last week, is to make sure it newspapers get things wrong,

:41:10.:41:15.

they can be fined, journalists can be investigated, and there are

:41:15.:41:22.

prominent apologies. We know what a regulatory system should look like,

:41:22.:41:29.

we don't have one now but we need one for the future. I would like to

:41:29.:41:33.

echo the Prime Minister's tribute to our armed forces and fallen

:41:33.:41:39.

comrades. We owe their families and loved ones are a huge debt of

:41:39.:41:43.

gratitude. Last week we saw the sentencing of former staff of

:41:43.:41:46.

Winterbourne View Hospital who were found guilty of ill-treatment and

:41:46.:41:51.

neglect. I had hoped this would bring closure and a sense of

:41:51.:41:56.

justice to the victims and their families. But we have learnt

:41:56.:42:00.

patience from Winterbourne View have been -- may have been subject

:42:00.:42:04.

to neglect and ill-treatment elsewhere. Does the Member for

:42:04.:42:13.

Sutton and Cheam think they should be subject to a corporate

:42:13.:42:18.

prosecution? I pay tribute to what he said it on armed forces. On the

:42:18.:42:21.

issue of Winterbourne View, anyone who saw those pictures about how

:42:21.:42:25.

very vulnerable people were being treated, would be absolutely

:42:25.:42:31.

shocked. And just like me, they would want to make sure the law

:42:31.:42:35.

will go exactly where the evidence leads. But there needs to be

:42:35.:42:38.

further prosecution, then there should be. It was shocking what

:42:38.:42:43.

happened and we should judge for our society on a vulnerable and

:42:43.:42:48.

needy people and what happened was an acceptable. Ed Miliband. It is

:42:49.:42:53.

welcome the British economy is in a long as did Paul -- double dip

:42:53.:42:59.

recession since the war. And nor Heseltine said today "the message

:42:59.:43:05.

idea is the UK does not have a strategy for growth and job

:43:05.:43:10.

creation". Who does the Prime Minister blamed for that? What

:43:10.:43:13.

Michael Heseltine said is the coalition is fundamentally on the

:43:13.:43:18.

right track. He said, I praise its work for the industrial strategy

:43:18.:43:23.

plans, pioneering city devolution and the revelations in education

:43:23.:43:28.

and tackling unemployment. That is what Michael Heseltine said. We can

:43:28.:43:33.

keep trading quotes, but I think he is making a bigger.. It is an

:43:33.:43:40.

excellent report. What he is saying is over decades in our economy, it

:43:40.:43:45.

became too centralised, and regions and nations fell behind,

:43:45.:43:47.

manufacturing half as a share of national income during the last

:43:47.:43:51.

Government. And during the boom years, in the West Midlands there

:43:51.:43:55.

were no net a new private sector jobs. He is dealing with the big

:43:55.:44:01.

issues. What a pity or he can do is stand up and read out a quote.

:44:01.:44:06.

says Lord Heseltine's report says they are on the right track.

:44:06.:44:10.

Goodness knows what it would have said if he thought they were on the

:44:10.:44:14.

wrong track. He's said there is no strategy for jobs and growth,

:44:14.:44:19.

deregulation, his chosen approach is not the answer. Let me turn to a

:44:19.:44:25.

specific area of the report. Recommendations 61. He says, "the

:44:25.:44:30.

Government needs to set out a definitive and unambiguous energy

:44:30.:44:38.

policy." This is an appropriate day to be considering this

:44:38.:44:42.

recommendation on energy. It is good to see the business secretary

:44:42.:44:46.

on the bench. I'm sorry the growth Committee he is on his so one

:44:46.:44:51.

memorable, he cannot remember it. This is an appropriate date to

:44:51.:45:01.
:45:01.:45:02.

consider these recommendations will I am enjoying this, Mr Speaker. His

:45:02.:45:07.

energy secretary says he is against wind farms and enough is enough.

:45:07.:45:13.

Whilst his... The order. Let me say to the Government backbenches. It

:45:13.:45:18.

is straightforward. They either calm down or the session it will be

:45:19.:45:24.

extended, at whoever inconvenience that involved. It is incredibly

:45:24.:45:27.

straightforward. His energy minister says he is against wind

:45:27.:45:31.

farms and enough is enough while his energy secretary says he wants

:45:31.:45:37.

them. Who speaks for the Government, the Energy Secretary or the energy

:45:37.:45:43.

minister? Today the jokes has been bad and the substance is bad also.

:45:43.:45:47.

I tell you why it is a good day to talk about energy policy, because

:45:47.:45:53.

today Hitachi are investing �20 billion in our nuclear industry.

:45:53.:45:57.

Today is a good day to talk about energy because there is more

:45:57.:46:00.

investment in renewable energy under three years of this

:46:00.:46:04.

Government's ban under 13 years of their Government. It is a good day

:46:04.:46:10.

to talk about energy policy because we have got a Green Investment Bank

:46:10.:46:14.

up and running. There has been no change towards renewable energy. We

:46:14.:46:18.

have a big pipeline of onshore and offshore wind projects coming

:46:18.:46:23.

through. We are committed to those. All parties will have to have a

:46:23.:46:27.

debate in his house and outside this House about what happens once

:46:27.:46:37.
:46:37.:46:47.

the targets are met. And he ought It is very simple for the Prime

:46:47.:46:53.

Minister will stop you have one minister who says he is totally

:46:53.:47:02.

against wind farms and he has won a minister who is totally gunk hoe

:47:02.:47:06.

for wind farms. He has a wind turbine on his house, I thought he

:47:06.:47:12.

would be in favour. Lord Heseltine says in his report there are people

:47:12.:47:17.

resistant to his ideas. We know who they are, the Chancellor and the

:47:17.:47:21.

Prime Minister. The evidence over the last two years is de Regulation,

:47:21.:47:26.

sink or swim. His answer is not the answer. Lot Heseltine is right and

:47:26.:47:31.

they are wrong. I have got one thing to say, not you, Mr Speaker

:47:31.:47:41.
:47:41.:47:47.

but he, he is no Michael Heseltine. Order! Order! I want to hear Mr

:47:47.:47:52.

Swales and I feel sure the people of red-carded. Thank you, Mr

:47:52.:47:59.

Speaker. The Russians want to award a prestigious medal to Arctic

:47:59.:48:05.

convoy veterans. The governments of Australia, Canada, the USA and

:48:05.:48:11.

Canada have agreed, the UK government have refused. Will the

:48:11.:48:17.

Prime Minister get this decision reversed so my constituent get the

:48:17.:48:26.

recognition that they reserve -- deserve. I have every understanding

:48:26.:48:31.

which is why we have asked Sir John Holmes to conduct this review into

:48:31.:48:35.

medals and important cases of which the Arctic convoy is probably the

:48:35.:48:45.
:48:45.:48:50.

most pressing. He is getting on The Foreign Secretary said

:48:50.:48:54.

yesterday that the rules of this House require that ministers answer

:48:55.:49:03.

questions. Sir, There is a stash of embarrassing emails, isn't there?

:49:03.:49:07.

Adam Smith has to publish every single one of his emails and ended

:49:07.:49:13.

up resigning. Why won't the Prime Minister publishes emails? Can he

:49:13.:49:17.

really be a fit and proper person to judge on the future of press

:49:17.:49:20.

regulation if he will not come clean with the British public?

:49:20.:49:24.

There is another rule of this house which is if you insult someone in

:49:24.:49:29.

this house you do an apology. I have to say, I am still waiting.

:49:29.:49:33.

The fact is, it is this government which set up the Leveson Inquiry

:49:33.:49:41.

and I gave all the information that Leveson asked to the inquiry.

:49:41.:49:47.

Owl and the pussycat is a coffee- shop in Larne in my constituency.

:49:47.:49:52.

They have just had their business rates hyped-up by 700 % and the

:49:52.:49:56.

council is coming up with the money -- coming for the money even though

:49:56.:50:04.

they have not yet heard the appeal. This is not unique to Wales, can

:50:04.:50:06.

the Prime Minister come to the rescue? I have every sympathy with

:50:07.:50:11.

the business he mentions. Business rates are a devolved issue. This is

:50:11.:50:14.

something which needs to be taken up with the Welsh Assembly

:50:14.:50:21.

Government. In England we have halved rate relief -- doubled rate

:50:21.:50:28.

relief to help small businesses. We have given councils new powers to

:50:28.:50:33.

levy discounts. I think that is the right approach to England and he

:50:33.:50:41.

will want to take their case to Wales. In 2007, the Prime Minister

:50:41.:50:45.

identified Lewisham Hospital as one of 29 hospitals he would be

:50:45.:50:51.

prepared to get into a bare knuckle fight over. On Monday, it emerged

:50:51.:50:56.

that Lewisham's a Andy and maternity services could end up

:50:56.:51:01.

paying the price for financial failures elsewhere in the NHS --

:51:02.:51:06.

accident and emergency. Which side of this bare knuckle fight is he

:51:06.:51:09.

on? The fight we are on is increasing the resources going into

:51:09.:51:15.

the NHS. We have extra money is going into Lewisham and she is on

:51:15.:51:21.

this side of cutting money into the NHS. What we have done is set out

:51:21.:51:24.

that there will be no changes to NHS confederation's unless they

:51:24.:51:29.

have the support of local GPs and unless they have strong public and

:51:29.:51:33.

patient engagement, unless they are backed by sound clinical evidence

:51:33.:51:37.

and they are backed by patient choice. Those sort of trustees

:51:37.:51:42.

whenever there under the last government. They are there now.

:51:42.:51:45.

light of last it's positive growth figures, does the Prime Minister

:51:45.:51:49.

agree with me that policies requiring yet more spending, more

:51:49.:51:53.

borrowing and more debt halve the precise opposite of what our

:51:53.:52:00.

country needs. My honourable friend is entirely right. The news last it

:52:00.:52:03.

was welcome that the economy is growing, unemployment is coming

:52:03.:52:07.

down, inflation is coming down, the rate of small business creation is

:52:07.:52:10.

going up, there are a million more people employed in the private

:52:10.:52:14.

sector that there were two years ago and the one absolute certainty

:52:14.:52:19.

is the worst approach and Michael Heseltine confirms this, would be

:52:19.:52:22.

to see more spending, more borrowing and more debt because

:52:22.:52:26.

that is what got us into the mess in the first place. The party

:52:26.:52:36.

opposite have only one growth plan and that is to grow the deficit.

:52:36.:52:39.

condolences -- condolences on the death of my constituent, Corporal

:52:39.:52:46.

Channing day. She always wanted to join the armed services. She wanted

:52:46.:52:52.

to save lives. Imagined how it felt for the injured soldier to see her

:52:52.:53:02.

going to help. She was soon return to the family who love their dearly

:53:02.:53:07.

and the community who are very proud. The community of Northern

:53:07.:53:11.

Ireland salute her courage, bravery and heroism. Would you agree with

:53:11.:53:16.

me that army medics are often the unsung heroes of conflict and will

:53:16.:53:21.

he agree to meet with me and my colleagues to discuss the

:53:21.:53:23.

implementation of the military covenant in Northern Ireland?

:53:23.:53:29.

of all, I would be very happy to meet him and his colleagues to talk

:53:29.:53:34.

about it. I have spoken to the First Minister and deputy First

:53:34.:53:37.

Minister in Northern Ireland. I know there are issues about

:53:37.:53:43.

implementing the covenant but I would be happy to have that meeting.

:53:43.:53:50.

He spoke very movingly about Corporal Channing Day. They do a

:53:50.:54:00.
:54:00.:54:01.

tremendous job. It has been a huge privilege for me to meet the medics

:54:01.:54:11.
:54:11.:54:12.

in Afghanistan. British forces are receiving the best care. Question

:54:12.:54:19.

number 8. Kettering hospital will retain its accident and emergency

:54:19.:54:23.

and maternity services. Any suggestion otherwise is

:54:23.:54:29.

scaremongering of the worst kind. Kettering has the 6th highest

:54:29.:54:33.

household growth rate in the whole country and accident and emergency

:54:33.:54:37.

missions are up 10 % year on year. Given that Kettering General

:54:37.:54:41.

Hospital has been at the very heart of the local community for well

:54:41.:54:45.

over 100 years, but local people deserve a clear assurance that our

:54:45.:54:49.

much loved and badly needed local hospital has a bright future ahead

:54:49.:54:54.

of it? I gave my honourable friend the strongest possible assurance

:54:54.:54:58.

and the point I have made, as I have made it to the honourable lady

:54:59.:55:02.

opposite, is there cannot be any changes and as there is full public

:55:03.:55:06.

consultation, and as there is the support of local GPs and strong

:55:06.:55:11.

public and patient engagement. In the case of Kettering, that does

:55:11.:55:15.

not on the agenda. Any suggestion by the opposition is scaremongering

:55:15.:55:22.

of the worst kind and I can see they are at it again. It has been

:55:22.:55:26.

emphasised again and again on all sides of the house, on the

:55:26.:55:33.

importance of skills to promote economic growth. The why did the

:55:33.:55:37.

number of apprenticeships start to fall last year? The number of

:55:37.:55:42.

apprenticeships under this government are about 900,000. It

:55:42.:55:46.

has hugely increased. government recently announced plans

:55:46.:55:51.

to extend the freeze on council tax for a third year. Unfortunately,

:55:51.:55:56.

the Labour-run city of York council increased council tax by 2.9 % at

:55:56.:56:04.

has moved with remarkable speed to confirm a 2% increase next to you.

:56:04.:56:09.

-- next year. Can Mike right honourable friend agree that the

:56:09.:56:16.

city of York council should look again? The government has made

:56:16.:56:20.

money available so councils can freeze their council tax fought the

:56:20.:56:23.

third year in a red. This demonstrates we are wrong side of

:56:23.:56:27.

people who work hard and want to get on and struggle to pay the

:56:27.:56:30.

bills. All councils should look at the money available and recognise

:56:31.:56:38.

that a council tax freeze is in the best interest of all our citizens.

:56:38.:56:42.

When did the Prime Minister become aware of the plans to close fought

:56:42.:56:45.

at Southampton and Dagenham and was the where of those plans went his

:56:46.:56:49.

government awarded a large sum of money from the regional growth fund

:56:49.:56:54.

to that company just a few days earlier? Obviously, these issues

:56:54.:56:58.

were discussed and we work closely with all the automotive companies

:56:58.:57:02.

in the United Kingdom. The news from most of them, from Nissan,

:57:02.:57:07.

Toyota, Jaguar Land Rover has been extremely positive. What happened

:57:07.:57:11.

at Ford in Southampton is very regrettable but we must do

:57:11.:57:15.

everything we can to help those people into work.

:57:15.:57:18.

I am delighted the economy is finally growing and green growth is

:57:18.:57:23.

a key part of this. He is the Prime Minister still committed to this

:57:23.:57:28.

being the greenest government ever, particularly when it comes to his

:57:28.:57:31.

policies on renewable energy? under this government that we have

:57:31.:57:35.

seen more investment on green energy in three years than we had

:57:35.:57:38.

13 from the party opposite. The Green Investment Bank that we

:57:38.:57:44.

promised, that is up and running. The carbon plans we spoke about

:57:44.:57:47.

foreign players. This is a Green government and it is sticking to

:57:47.:57:55.

its promises. -- the plans are in place. The number of people waiting

:57:55.:58:01.

more than four hours in accident and emergency units has doubled.

:58:01.:58:07.

There are plans to close Central Middlesex Hospital, Ealing Hospital,

:58:07.:58:13.

Lewisham and a suspect Kettering hospital as well, if constituents

:58:13.:58:17.

had to end up in casualty they would have to wait longer for

:58:17.:58:21.

accident and emergency services. have to say, I could not be any

:58:21.:58:25.

clearer about the future of Kettering hospital and for him to

:58:25.:58:29.

say that is scaremongering of the worst kind. Let me tally him what

:58:29.:58:34.

is happening at the hospitals which serve his constituents. In May 2010

:58:34.:58:39.

there were 52 patients waiting longer than 12 months. How many are

:58:39.:58:42.

there now? None under this government will start that is what

:58:42.:58:46.

is actually happening. We are putting the money into the NHS and

:58:46.:58:56.
:58:56.:58:57.

Further to the result on 18th October, on the contentious

:58:57.:59:02.

decision at the Royal Regiment of the Royal Fusiliers, it would the

:59:02.:59:05.

Prime Minister meet with me and other interested members from

:59:05.:59:09.

across the House to discuss this issue? I am always happy to talk to

:59:09.:59:14.

colleagues about this issue. I know the Ministry of Defence and

:59:14.:59:18.

Secretary of State is. He knows we have to make difficult decisions to

:59:18.:59:26.

be done place about the future structure of the army. Clearly, we

:59:26.:59:29.

have a to make some difficult decisions about regiments and

:59:29.:59:33.

battalions and in that, we were guided by trying to save as many

:59:33.:59:38.

regiments and cap badges as possible. The Defence Secretary

:59:38.:59:43.

will continue going on listening to recommendations.

:59:43.:59:45.

Will the Prime Minister confirm that the changes to child benefit

:59:45.:59:51.

due to be introduced in January this year, next year, but the cost

:59:51.:00:00.

of that, the overall cost is very much over �100 million? The changes

:00:00.:00:04.

that we are making to child benefit, where we are taking child benefit

:00:04.:00:11.

away altogether from people earning over �60,000, that will save around

:00:11.:00:14.

�2 billion. It is necessary to take tough decisions in order to deal

:00:14.:00:18.

with the massive deficit, bigger than Greece, bigger than Spain,

:00:18.:00:24.

that his party left us. I find it completely inexplicable why the

:00:24.:00:28.

party opposite, that say they want those with the broadest backs to

:00:28.:00:32.

share some of the burden, oppose the idea of taking child benefit

:00:32.:00:39.

away from people over 60, 70, 80, 90,000. I do not see why the front

:00:39.:00:42.

bench there should go on collecting their child benefit when we have to

:00:42.:00:50.

make such difficult decisions. Will my right honourable friend

:00:50.:01:00.
:01:00.:01:01.

joined me in congratulating might - - accompany my constituency for

:01:01.:01:06.

their Queen's Award. Does he agree this is the finest example of

:01:06.:01:14.

business on the up? I think the honourable lady next at -- makes a

:01:14.:01:24.

good point. We need to go further and faster and that is what Michael

:01:24.:01:34.
:01:34.:01:43.

Heseltine's excellent report is They were saying on wind power,

:01:43.:01:53.
:01:53.:01:58.

Investment to meet the 22 Beavon -- 2020 target was on target. The main

:01:58.:02:03.

exchange between the two front benchers, it was split into three

:02:04.:02:12.

and three. Normally the leader of position does all six questions. --

:02:12.:02:22.
:02:22.:02:23.

leader of the opposition. He was talking about the European budget.

:02:23.:02:32.

Labour wants a real-terms increase in the European budget. Mr Cameron

:02:32.:02:36.

says he will settle for a real term rise. The leader of the opposition

:02:36.:02:41.

moved on to the Michael Heseltine report. We will be speaking to him

:02:41.:02:46.

in a few moments for stomp and then brought in a wind farms, as we know

:02:46.:02:53.

the Government's party is not totally clear on that. We will get

:02:53.:02:57.

a reaction in a minute, but we want to know what you thought.

:02:57.:03:06.

Lots of Commons. Diane from Cornwall said, "pour

:03:06.:03:10.

from David Cameron who lost his temper under pressure from Ed

:03:10.:03:14.

Miliband. He did well by splitting his questions and seems to have

:03:15.:03:20.

continued for where he left off before the recess".

:03:20.:03:26.

Ian Whitely, "Ed Miliband trounced David Cameron and the EU position

:03:26.:03:29.

on the budget will stop Ed Miliband it is showing he is more interested

:03:29.:03:32.

in putting Labour before the country".

:03:32.:03:39.

Robert, "David Cameron has been dealt a blow from the opposition he

:03:39.:03:43.

finds him at odds not only in Parliament but within his own

:03:44.:03:53.

party". "I enjoyed the you are no Michael

:03:53.:04:03.
:04:03.:04:13.

Heseltine comment from the Prime If you could see his face, he would

:04:13.:04:18.

be smiling. What do we make of this? We are seeing how the leader

:04:18.:04:22.

of the Labour Party has decided to try to repeat what happens to John

:04:22.:04:32.
:04:32.:04:32.

manger. He brought up John manger - - John Major from the 90s. The

:04:32.:04:36.

truth is, there is no comfortable middle ground between the two. What

:04:36.:04:42.

the Tory backbenchers want, which is a wholesale rejection of what

:04:42.:04:46.

Europe stands for and a cut in their budget, is not what any

:04:46.:04:56.
:04:56.:05:00.

diplomat or businessman will tell you is possible. What people will

:05:00.:05:06.

remember is it the Tory party is in disarray. He is equal on the issue

:05:06.:05:11.

on wind farms, trying to pull the coalition parties apart. John Smith

:05:11.:05:17.

used this tactics in the 1990s to make life awkward for John Major,

:05:17.:05:22.

in which Tony Blair was the great inheritor of. Why isn't the Prime

:05:22.:05:26.

Minister going to Brussels to talk about a real-terms cut in the EU

:05:26.:05:32.

budget? We have to deal with the budget we have got, and it is

:05:32.:05:40.

expanded. Neighbour just waved through an 8% increase. If it has

:05:40.:05:45.

expanded, cut it. We wouldn't be in this mess it you had exercised some

:05:46.:05:53.

proper control over it. He waved through an 8% increase last time.

:05:53.:05:58.

It has got out of control and we are Di -- trying to cap it. We have

:05:58.:06:03.

to do with the budget we have got. It is not a huge chunk of the

:06:03.:06:10.

overall resources of the European Union? 1%. Because we are having to

:06:10.:06:14.

inflict cuts at home on domestic spending priorities, we are saying

:06:14.:06:20.

to parts of the private sector, you have had a pay freeze. We have to

:06:20.:06:24.

persuade other governments to get the budget under control. That

:06:24.:06:29.

means there will be some cuts in some areas of the Budget. No one

:06:29.:06:34.

really believes, I suggest that if Labour was in power they would be

:06:34.:06:42.

going to Brussels arguing for a real-terms cut in the Budget, not

:06:42.:06:46.

pro-European Ed Miliband? We can only rely on the evidence we have

:06:47.:06:52.

got. Last July the voted for a real-terms cut in the Budget. Our

:06:52.:06:56.

MEPs voted for a cut in the Budget now. The Tories used to believe,

:06:56.:07:02.

when in opposition, they should be a cut in the budget in real terms.

:07:02.:07:06.

Now they are arguing for a 5% increase. You have done the same

:07:06.:07:09.

thing, called for cuts in opposition, but go along with

:07:09.:07:16.

increases in Government. The world has changed. We have austerity, you

:07:16.:07:23.

keep telling us we need to make cuts. We are going round in circles.

:07:23.:07:26.

Back to Nick Robinson for some common sense. Also, we will be

:07:26.:07:32.

going to Michael Heseltine. Europeans read the same opinion

:07:32.:07:37.

polls. Ministers get the same advice from diplomats whether they

:07:37.:07:40.

are Labour or Conservative switchers, the alliance's don't

:07:40.:07:45.

exist to deliver a cut. You don't deliver anything it you don't get

:07:45.:07:50.

people on your side. No matter how many vetoes, you have to reach an

:07:50.:07:54.

agreement or lead. These guys are doing what the Tories did before

:07:54.:07:57.

and the Tories are doing what Labour did before. And that is what

:07:57.:08:02.

happens. It will keep on happening the sometime until there is a way

:08:02.:08:05.

through. The interesting thing on the Michael Heseltine peas, there

:08:05.:08:11.

is a deeper thing I think that is interesting. But there is no doubt

:08:11.:08:17.

Michael Heseltine wrote a script that was helpful in the short term

:08:17.:08:22.

to Ed Miliband. No great strategy, indecision on airports and a mess

:08:22.:08:26.

on energy policy. But his long-term policy is an interesting challenge

:08:26.:08:32.

to all politicians. What he is saying is, Britain should be more

:08:32.:08:36.

like Germany. There should be an industrial strategy driven by the

:08:36.:08:40.

Government. They should be a strong series of business organisations.

:08:40.:08:46.

He talks about the possibility of forcing, by law, business has to

:08:46.:08:52.

join the Chamber of Commerce. And he talks about having the powerful,

:08:52.:08:56.

local organiser it -- Local Enterprise Partnerships, which

:08:56.:09:01.

would spend and allocate the money. It is a reshaping of the British

:09:01.:09:05.

state along dramatic lines. The Lib Dems used to argue to scrap the

:09:05.:09:10.

business department. The Conservatives were always split

:09:10.:09:14.

between people like Michael Heseltine and the free market. The

:09:14.:09:18.

Labour Party have been interesting decision, and there were a lot of

:09:18.:09:24.

speeches that sounded like this, but they did not do it. Now I

:09:24.:09:29.

believe the man of the moment can join us now from Birmingham. Lord

:09:29.:09:36.

Heseltine, welcome to the Daily Politics. I don't know whether you

:09:36.:09:41.

heard that, but do you want Blighty to be more like Germany, as Nick

:09:41.:09:47.

Robinson was saying? No, I want it to be every other capitalist

:09:47.:09:53.

economy. Germany is not special, it is the same. We are the ones out of

:09:53.:09:58.

step. Whether you look at America, the Asian tigers or the European

:09:58.:10:03.

competitors, they all have a system of Government which devolved power,

:10:03.:10:08.

broadly to their local city states. They all have industrial strategies

:10:08.:10:15.

designed to help their industries win. All right, I wondered, why did

:10:15.:10:20.

it take you six months to come up with all of this, since I have

:10:20.:10:25.

listened to you talking about this for the past 25 years? Andrew, you

:10:25.:10:33.

have not seen the report, I suspect which is 220 pages and a 40 page

:10:33.:10:37.

Amex would 89 recommendations, covering a wide range of Government

:10:37.:10:42.

and local authority and private sector activity. It has been quite

:10:42.:10:47.

a task. And if I say so, a privilege. But the Government to

:10:48.:10:52.

have the guts to have the Civil Service report to look at

:10:52.:10:56.

everything they are doing and produce a report without trying to

:10:56.:11:01.

influence it, it is a Government of confidence. Why do you think a

:11:01.:11:06.

free-marketeer like George Osborne asked you to do this report?

:11:06.:11:11.

Perhaps because he does not believe in the simplicity of your

:11:11.:11:17.

definitions. It was the Prime Minister who instigated it. It was

:11:17.:11:22.

George Osborne and Vince Cable to whom I have to report. They know my

:11:22.:11:28.

form, as you know my form, so it is not in the least bit surprising

:11:28.:11:33.

that what I have said is consistent with what I have said over the last

:11:33.:11:38.

30 years. They knew all that. They were interested in my ideas.

:11:38.:11:43.

Whether they carry them out, is for them. Let's look at your ideas. You

:11:43.:11:51.

talk about English local Government. Talking about it being too

:11:51.:11:54.

fragmented and you call for a major restructuring of local Government.

:11:54.:12:01.

Is the Government's up for this? You did it with Peter Walker, do

:12:01.:12:05.

you think this Government is up for another restructuring of local

:12:05.:12:10.

Government? Don't let's get carried away. I'm talking about allowing

:12:10.:12:16.

counties, if they want, to become unitary as opposed to two Tear. A

:12:16.:12:21.

few of them have done it. The legal position entitles them to do it. I

:12:21.:12:25.

am saying under the pressure of public spending constraints, as you

:12:25.:12:30.

can save between 10 and �15 million a year accounted, if they want to

:12:30.:12:35.

do it, they should. But whether conurbations of coming together,

:12:35.:12:41.

they should be encouraged to do it and they should have the choice of

:12:41.:12:46.

having a mayor to figurehead it if they want is. Those are not going

:12:46.:12:50.

to cause, in my view, certainly in the conurbations, it is already

:12:50.:12:56.

happening. On they are moving to a wider authorities in the model of

:12:56.:13:00.

Manchester. On the unit trees, I am saying if they want to do it, let

:13:00.:13:06.

them do it. Do you believe these Local Enterprise Partnerships, of

:13:06.:13:11.

which I would suspect 99% of people have never heard of and have no

:13:11.:13:17.

idea what they do. Are they really ready to take �58 billion of

:13:17.:13:25.

taxpayers' money? That is the arguments, Andrew, which all my

:13:25.:13:29.

life has led central Government to say No They are not. It has two

:13:29.:13:36.

permutations. They are doing it badly, so we will create a quango

:13:36.:13:41.

and take it away from them. Housing went that way. People say, why

:13:41.:13:46.

don't you let the chambers do this. We say they are not up to it,

:13:46.:13:50.

therefore we have another quango. If they are not doing it well

:13:50.:13:55.

enough, if they are not strong enough, help them become strong.

:13:55.:14:00.

What you have got to get hold of is the dynamism of English cities and

:14:00.:14:05.

the states around them. That is how a capitalist a economy works.

:14:06.:14:10.

criticise the Government for putting off the decision on airport

:14:10.:14:13.

expansion or runway expansion, particularly in the South East.

:14:13.:14:16.

They have kicked it into touch by giving it to someone who won't

:14:17.:14:22.

report until after the election. You need to think they should take

:14:22.:14:26.

the decision quickly, if not immediately. What you don't tell us

:14:26.:14:33.

this, where do you think it should go? Should -- where should the

:14:33.:14:38.

extra runway capacity be? I don't criticise the Government. The

:14:38.:14:42.

Government has an honourable commitment not to provide a third

:14:42.:14:47.

runway at Heathrow. They made that in the election campaign. They have

:14:47.:14:56.

said we cannot break R-word. -- R- word. They have said they will

:14:56.:15:01.

delay any further decision until after the next election. I am

:15:01.:15:05.

pointing out that compatible with that, they could speed up the

:15:05.:15:09.

process without taking a decision finally until after the next

:15:09.:15:14.

election. It is not a criticism of the Government. Can I take this

:15:14.:15:20.

whole issue? It is tedious. The moment it you repute -- produce a

:15:20.:15:24.

report like this, if the journalists can find a gap between

:15:24.:15:28.

the word I use and the word the Government used, it becomes a

:15:28.:15:33.

monumental divide and a crisis. I reject that totally. Strike the

:15:33.:15:43.
:15:43.:15:57.

word criticism and let me ask you, I am not criticising you for not

:15:57.:16:01.

saying in your report where the runway should be, I am asking you

:16:01.:16:05.

as a man of public affairs who follows these things, what is your

:16:05.:16:09.

view about where the extra runway capacity should go in the south-

:16:09.:16:15.

east? Can I be a little humble, without the facts and figures and

:16:15.:16:20.

costs, I would hesitate to answer your question. That is why the

:16:20.:16:24.

government set up the Davies report. Exactly, let's wait to see what it

:16:24.:16:30.

says. The they will not be until 2015 witches I thought the point

:16:30.:16:38.

you're making that they should do it sooner. Even that is not true.

:16:38.:16:44.

They can provide information before 2015. It is the decision that wants

:16:44.:16:48.

to wait until after the election because they look will not break

:16:48.:16:53.

their election promise and you should be praising them for that.

:16:53.:16:57.

am not asking them to break anything, and simply asking if you

:16:57.:17:02.

took the decision and if they were not breaking their promise, what

:17:02.:17:06.

should that decision be? I know when I am beaten on this. We will

:17:06.:17:16.

move on. NEWLINE never beaten, Andrew! I am enjoying it Eva in --

:17:16.:17:26.
:17:26.:17:33.

it even so. 89, there we go... is this another failure?

:17:33.:17:39.

actually is a criticism that you could not round it up to 90. Let me

:17:39.:17:46.

plead guilty. It has got to wade through 89 of these to decide,

:17:46.:17:50.

which won? The Prime Minister and Chancellor are watching now, which

:17:50.:17:58.

one, two or 3D say it should give priority now from the 89 to do now?

:17:58.:18:02.

I would say to the Prime Minister, that you have got the loneliest and

:18:02.:18:07.

most difficult job in the country and you are at the mercy of world

:18:07.:18:12.

events which you can only partially influence. The battering of leaders

:18:12.:18:19.

of politics today by the incessant 247 news coverage is frightening.

:18:19.:18:24.

But if it could bring himself to recognise that the growth of the

:18:24.:18:28.

economy is the overarching responsibility and the biggest

:18:28.:18:31.

opportunity and therefore, put himself at the front of the pursuit

:18:31.:18:37.

of growth, with all the type of support systems that I indicate,

:18:37.:18:41.

that would be to me, a transformation of what has happened

:18:41.:18:44.

in this country Thrupp my life. We are not talking that short-term

:18:44.:18:47.

things here. This is something I think Britain should have done

:18:48.:18:52.

historically. Michael Heseltine, we will have to leave it here. It is

:18:52.:18:58.

good to see back in the limelight. It is like the old days again and

:18:58.:19:04.

you are enjoying it. And always with you. It is symbolic that he

:19:05.:19:08.

unveiled the report in Birmingham and not London, I think that was

:19:08.:19:15.

ace and -- a sensible thing to do. When you opened the report with the

:19:15.:19:20.

picture of Jo Chamberlain, the old city creators of wealth, the people

:19:20.:19:24.

who ran cities and did not care what London thought, he wants a

:19:24.:19:28.

return to that. It was interesting. He is basically saying England

:19:28.:19:32.

needs to be more a Wales and Scotland in terms of its

:19:32.:19:36.

organisation also Wales and Scotland have unitary councils and

:19:36.:19:40.

they have governments who tend to go out and back for their economy.

:19:40.:19:44.

England has a mess of councils. Some my unit tree and someone not.

:19:45.:19:50.

I do not think that is right. In Scotland, I do not know about Wales,

:19:50.:19:55.

is all power is centralised in Edinburgh now, not London. Glasgow

:19:55.:20:00.

and Aberdeen, he wants them to have the power. Is that a criticism in

:20:00.:20:07.

Wales as well? There is always a few there is too much

:20:07.:20:12.

centralisation. Michael says there is not a scintilla of a gap between

:20:12.:20:19.

him and George Osborne, there is a gaping chasm on this. He is arguing

:20:19.:20:24.

for devolution, if you like, throughout England. He is arguing

:20:25.:20:28.

for a regional growth strategy and for him to turn round and say the

:20:28.:20:32.

Prime Minister needs to recognise that growth did to be the primary

:20:32.:20:37.

priority for this government, that is a criticism. He did not answer

:20:37.:20:40.

that but he answered my question about the two or three general

:20:40.:20:45.

things with a general statement on growth. Ultimately, he is talking

:20:45.:20:49.

about statelet intervention where this government believes the state

:20:50.:20:53.

crowds out private sector enterprise. The Easter Fallon will

:20:53.:21:00.

have the final word. -- Michael Fallon. We have to look hard at

:21:00.:21:04.

ourselves and we have done that. We will go through these

:21:04.:21:08.

recommendations. He has only just produced it. We will go through

:21:08.:21:14.

these one by one. All that stuff is something we heartily endorse. All

:21:14.:21:17.

ministers are as impatient as Michael is to get this country

:21:17.:21:22.

growing again. You have not worked out how to do it. The have worked

:21:22.:21:26.

it out. We want local growth. He does not recommend going back to

:21:26.:21:32.

the regional bureaucracies that Owen had. He wants city regions,

:21:32.:21:35.

local enterprise partnerships which we are doing. A lot of things we

:21:35.:21:39.

are doing he wants us to accelerate and we will look at the

:21:39.:21:46.

recommendations. Thank you for staying with us. Are a pleasure. A

:21:46.:21:54.

Hezza Andrew contest. Do you get time 1/2 when you stay for extra

:21:54.:21:59.

time? Over to you with your toggles and wobbles. Warbles, actually.

:21:59.:22:04.

Do you get your Waples in a twist when it comes to parliamentary

:22:04.:22:11.

process -- woggles. We have got just the team for the bob-a-job.

:22:11.:22:16.

The Scouts have invaded Westminster. They are taking on MPs in a quiz

:22:16.:22:23.

today. It is to mark the launch of their citizenship project. We can

:22:23.:22:27.

cross to College Green and talk to Scout leader Peter Jeffries, Scout

:22:27.:22:34.

Imogen Woodhall in the middle and MP Graham Evans who is co-chair of

:22:34.:22:38.

the All Party Parliamentary Scout group. Graham, can we tell -- can

:22:38.:22:44.

you tell us more about this? It is an opportunity for scalps to come

:22:44.:22:51.

into Westminster and test their politics with politicians -- for

:22:51.:23:01.
:23:01.:23:05.

scalps to come in. Will your Scouts Way you're scalps get a badge?

:23:05.:23:11.

will have a good time. They will understand more about the world

:23:11.:23:17.

around them and how to engage in the political process. It does seem

:23:17.:23:23.

to tie in with what they are doing in schools at the moment, young

:23:23.:23:27.

people and citizenship, is that the idea to link it educationally?

:23:27.:23:32.

is absolutely right and it is all credit to the scouting movement.

:23:32.:23:35.

Education, in my view, with politics, has been lacking in

:23:35.:23:39.

recent years, along with the teaching of history. I think

:23:39.:23:44.

politics, history and citizenship go together. You have just had

:23:44.:23:47.

Michael Heseltine and he was a minister in the 1970s, in the Ted

:23:47.:23:53.

Heath government. How many people actually know that? It is about the

:23:53.:23:55.

general public engaging in the vitally important subject of

:23:56.:24:01.

politics. Imogen, do you think it will work, do you think it sounds

:24:01.:24:04.

interesting? I think it sounds interesting and it will work

:24:04.:24:08.

because not many young people know about Parliament, so it is a good

:24:08.:24:12.

opportunity. What are your first impressions of being out

:24:12.:24:15.

Westminster? Maybe you have been here before, looking around

:24:15.:24:22.

Parliament? It is very big! There are a lot of them, they'll go and

:24:22.:24:28.

hide in there, don't they, Graham? Yes, we do. What is the best way,

:24:28.:24:33.

Peter, of trying to make this accessible to young people like

:24:33.:24:40.

Imogen? One of the really important things for Scouts like image and to

:24:40.:24:43.

understand is how this affects their lives. Rather than being a

:24:43.:24:48.

far away context, what is it in their local communities, how can we

:24:48.:24:53.

become more active, with our local authorities and local MPs so

:24:53.:24:57.

everyone can understand more about what people are thinking about the

:24:57.:25:02.

world around them. Taking the whole day into account, we are going to

:25:03.:25:07.

quiz Imogen and Graham. Graham, be very scared. We are going to start

:25:07.:25:14.

with you, Imogen. My first question is Leader of the Opposition? Think

:25:14.:25:21.

Wallace and Gromit. If that is a clear. Is that an unfair clue.

:25:21.:25:29.

we allowed to give hints along the side. Ed Miliband. Ed Miliband.

:25:29.:25:35.

many houses of parliament are there? Imogen, do you know? Two.

:25:35.:25:41.

well done, you can get a bonus point if you name them both.

:25:41.:25:46.

House of Lords and Commons. Well done. You have got a very deep

:25:46.:25:54.

voice, Imogen! How old do you have to be to get the vote? 16? Well,

:25:54.:26:04.

some people think so. 18. Yes! We will give you 2.5. Graham, no help

:26:04.:26:08.

for you. Who was British Prime Minister when Abraham Lincoln was

:26:08.:26:14.

the President of the United States. Pass. Yes, it is quite hard. It was

:26:14.:26:20.

Lord Palmerston. I should have known that. But you did not. What

:26:20.:26:27.

does LIBOR stand for? LIBOR is the interest rate which banks agreed

:26:27.:26:31.

between each other. It is, but do you know what it stands for word

:26:31.:26:38.

for word? No, pass. It is the London Interbank offered Rate. And

:26:38.:26:42.

which British animal linked the founder of the Society of Friends,

:26:42.:26:48.

a 60 No 5 comedy by playwright Ben Jonson and a Whig politician born

:26:48.:26:55.

in 1756. Which animal links those? Blackadder? No! You have not done

:26:55.:26:59.

very well. We did make them quite tricky. Peter, do you have the

:26:59.:27:04.

Daily Politics mug there? I have. Who wins this after those

:27:04.:27:10.

questions? I think we can fairly and squarely say Imogen. You get a

:27:10.:27:15.

Daily Politics mug. Sorry, Graham, there is nothing for you at all.

:27:15.:27:22.

The story of my life! Thank you for joining us.

:27:22.:27:28.

Black had a? When was that an animal. He was never a Prime

:27:28.:27:35.

Minister. Time to guess the year, the answer was Michael. Michael --

:27:35.:27:41.

the answer was 2000. Michael, press the red button. Who is the lucky

:27:41.:27:51.
:27:51.:27:54.

winner? I do not know why they have What do you think about this idea

:27:54.:28:02.

of getting Scouts in and doing political engagement? One of my

:28:02.:28:09.

sons is a car and the other is a Brownie. It is a great initiative.

:28:09.:28:14.

Young people have not been voting in great numbers. Do you think they

:28:14.:28:17.

should have the vote at 16? There is an argument that that because

:28:17.:28:23.

they are not paying taxes. You were in favour of anything we are not in

:28:23.:28:31.

favour of. So stop it, you two! are going to stop the petty

:28:31.:28:35.

bickering and bring it all to an end. Thank you to all our guests

:28:35.:28:40.

who appeared today. The One o'clock News is starting over on BBC One. I

:28:41.:28:43.

With the business minister Michael Fallon, shadow Welsh secretary Owen Smith, and former deputy prime minister Michael Heseltine. The Guess the Year competition closes at 12.30pm during the live broadcast of this programme.


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