01/11/2012 Daily Politics


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Afternoon, folks. Welcome to the Daily Politics. Are the ghosts of


Conservative past coming back to want David Cameron? The ayes to the


right, 307. The noes to the left, 294. 53 Conservative MPs rebel on


Europe. Last night they were joined by Labour to inflict a Commons


defeat on the Government. They tell the Prime Minister and EU budget


freeze is not enough, they want a real-terms cut. If the Prime


Minister cannot get that in Brussels, will MPs reject whatever


he does get? Gone With the wind? After a week of confusion, are


onshore wind farms done for? And the political moustache makes a


comeback for Movember. But they All of that is coming up in the


next hour. Who more appropriate to join us on this All Saints Day, a


political saint of his own making, the former mayor of London. But so


would not melt in his mouth. Welcome back to the show. Let's


start with what turned into an All Hallows' Eve fright night for the


Prime Minister. Scary! He was defeated by an unholy alliance of


53 of his own MPs and the Labour Party. Together, they voted for a


real-terms reduction in the EU budget, rather than the real-terms


freeze that the Prime Minister is after. It is a cash increase, but


for inflation. That is what the Prime Minister wants. With


impeccable timing, debit Prime Minister Nick Clegg has been making


a speech on Europe this morning. Ever helpful, he's attacked


Conservative rebels but, also, the Labour leadership. Their change of


heart is dishonest. It is hypocritical. Worst of all,


Labour's plan could cost the taxpayer more, not less. In pushing


a completely unrealistic position on the EU budget, one that is miles


away from any other country's position, Labour will have


absolutely no hope of getting a budget deal agreed, driving the EU


budget built up instead, over which It may have been opportunistic, it


may have even been hypocritical. But it is pretty good politics by


Labour? I think the world has changed. A whole generation of MPs


like myself, who grew up influenced by the war, saw Europe as a real


issue, the world has moved on. Nobody in France or Italy expects


to be invaded by Germany or even Russia. Now people are focusing on


what it costs. The EU budget makes the Ministry of Defence budget look


responsible and well managed. cannot be that bad! All of those


agricultural subsidies, that do not go to small farmers. It's mostly


big business and half of them are American. The Cypriots are in the


chair at the moment. They have a �5 billion cut proposed in common


agricultural subsidies. 5 billion, in a one trillion budget. The


French have thrown their toys out of the pram. It is not French


farmers getting this, which is what is stupid. I think France does not


publish the details of who gets what. That is because they are


ashamed. We have all had those horrific tales, again and again, of


terrible waste. When everything else is being cut, if we are all


honest, we know that it's not going to be easy for any time and the


rest of this decade. So why should the European budget be exempt from


real scrutiny? It is what the British people think? I suspect it


is what everybody in Europe thinks, but nobody gets a chance to put it


out there. We are going to come back to this, but why do you think


these things don't play as much in Germany or France, or even Italy?


don't know. You have always had this strong Euro-sceptic block of


opinion here. That has kept fuelling it. That really wasn't


there in Europe after the war. Because they had all been invaded...


For the reasons he gave? It's time they got their act together. The


scrutiny you get in German politics is very good. But nobody is


scrutinising his nightmare. I always thought once you got a


European Parliament, what do you need to commission for? You have


elected MPs, let them run the budget and be accountable. This


morning, Chancellor George Osborne said that the real test in the EU


budget is still to come. That's if the Prime Minister comes back from


Brussels after negotiations, with something less than a real-terms


reduction in the EU budget. Will the Conservative rebels join again


with Labour to reject it? They were in no mood to compensate last night.


This Prime Minister has been clear that the remorseless rise in


spending in the EU has to stop and it will stop. If there is no cut or


no real freeze, there is no deal. The framework will be deterred.


goal today is to stand up for the taxpayer. I know this is not


something that is only the preserve of these ventures. I know there are


some members opposite who also want to rise above some of the partisan


discussions today and make sure that we have a decision from the


debates that we have this evening. A decision that does the best thing


for the taxpayer. What an array to choose from! I'll give way to the


honourable gentleman. Would not be Honourable Gentleman agree that the


proposal put forward by the Government in the face of


extraordinary, irrational provocation from the commission is


extremely sensible and deserves the support of the whole house? I had


police officers who came to my surgery. They understand that their


pay is frozen. They are less happy about changes to terms and


conditions, less happy about not getting their increments. What they


do not understand is why other elements of the Budget, in


particular the European Union, should be guaranteed inflationary


increases, letter don't inflationary increases or of the


way through to 2020. -- let alone inflationary increases all of the


way through to 2020. I'm grateful to the Honourable Member, who I


have the utmost respect for. Does he have the utmost respect for


members opposite who voted time and time again to give away powers and


money to the European Union, and now propose to wrap themselves in


the Euro-sceptic flag and walk through the lobbies this afternoon?


I think this multi- national framework, or EU budget, is insane.


To ask for the European Union to ask for a 10% real increase above


inflation is insulting to our constituents. In it is insulting to


the people of Spain and Italy and Portugal, and Ireland, who are


being told to pull in their belts. The if the Prime Minister achieves


a freeze in the European Union budget, he will have done something


that no other Prime Minister has managed to achieve. No, I am not


going to give way. All that is happening on these benches is


whenever the Prime Minister says he is going to achieve something,


there are those that are somewhat self-indulgent and are seeking to


set an even higher hurdle for him to jump over. It is unreasonable


and unfair. If this party hopes to be in government after the next


General Election, it has got to get a grip and start supporting the


Prime Minister. It is no good in the European elections in 2014


wrapping ourselves in the Union flag if tonight we take it off and


wrap ourselves in the stars of the European Union flag. This is a


moment of truth, this is a moment of decision. We can send a united


message, as a parliament, as a nation, to Brussels. Let's make a


difference. If we are not making a difference, we might as well go


home. At that point, he went home. No, good clips from a lively


Commons debate. We like it when that happens on the Daily Politics.


Let's continue. We are joined by Bernard Jenkin, one of the


Conservative rebels, Nadhim Zahawi, who voted with the Government, and


Lib Dem MP Martin Horwood. I think we know how he voted as well. You


voted for the rebels. We know, by looking across the Channel, that


the best the Prime Minister is going to get is a freeze in real


terms on the existing budget. Nobody else is talking about a huge


cut. Why lumber him with this vote? First of all, it is advisory.


understand that, not binding. Prime Minister could have easily


have said, yes, I accept this amendment, I will do my best, but I


am pretty powerless. That is the reality. The people saying it is


frightfully irresponsible, we must not pretend we are powerless, we


have become powerless. What this vote was about was a message from


the British people. We don't care what your problems are. We are not


happy with this relationship. That message is now getting through to


Parliament. It was about a lot more than the Budget in your view?


some of the, this is a seismic moment in British politics. There


are only 53 of you, it is not seismic. Even the Labour vote, it


is basically a pro-Europe party, they now realise they haven't got a


chance of being elected unless they at least pretend to be Euro-sceptic.


I think it would be madness to leave, because so much of our trade


is tied up in it. But there is no reason why we cannot say there is a


lot wrong here and a lot of waste. I used to be in the House of


Commons, the fact I was there didn't been I stopped complaining


about their waist of your government and the way you


squandered so much money. -- the wastage in your government. Do you


think that Labour will have to become... I understand they were


not say that we should leave, but will they become more Europe


sceptic? When the Tories first applied to join the Common Market,


they said it was the end of thousands of years of British


history. I don't think either of their main parties are four or or


against, solidly. The Lib Dems are united. Labour had a real problem.


Margaret Hodge and said she hated his vote, it was political


opportunism. Bernard, you did not play him on your clip, a brilliant


speech. The. Margaret he was making, there are these vibrations, I call


them tremors. People do feel that we ought to try and make sure that


we try our hardest to cut the budget. That is what they are going


to try and do. When Bernard says we are helpless, I disagree. The


European Commission would not be panicking and putting a press


releases as to what the consequences would be if we had a


freeze in the budget in real terms, if we were helpless. Do you buy the


line of the rebels that bypassing this motion it is helpful to the


Prime Minister, it stiffens his resolve? He now cannot come back


from Brussels with anything less than a freeze? Do you buy that?


voted the other way. To try to push back the reins this relentless


increase in budgets, you have to build alliances. We had a alliance


with Germany, France, the Netherlands and Finland. The big


countries are on our side. 17 countries are net beneficiaries.


They will not be voting to cut the budget. When you build that


Alliance and promise that what you really want is a real-terms freeze,


there is no point going back and saying, you know what, I change my


mind, I wanted it more now. Who is on the side of a freeze? Germany,


France and a Nicolas Sarkozy, I hope Hollande will deliver on that.


The Netherlands, Finland, they have signed up. In negotiating, you have


to be consistent. That is why I was supporting the Government. But the


Prime Minister needs to listen to Parliament, which he will do.


Parliament has spoken last night. It delivered a very clear message.


The Lib Dem position, are they clearly in favour of aims real-


terms freeze? By yes, at least. What we have negotiated his a


position that could potentially be a cut if we can negotiate that. But


it's an unrealistic barter set the Government. Mission impossible?


have the Conservative Party chronically disunited over Europe.


This vote last night has probably underlined our negotiating position.


If you nail your mass to a completely unrealistic objective of


demanding a cut, when you haven't built the alliances that the deans


are how we was talking about, you will not be taken seriously. --


that Nadhim Zahawi was talking about. At least Bernard and his


Euro-sceptic friends have been consistent. The hypocrisy of the


Labour Party last night was unbelievable. It observed about a


dozen successive increases in the EU budget when they were in power.


You supported them all? This was a Europe-wide budget that was


negotiated. A promise to renegotiate the common agricultural


policy that was never delivered! There was more money available.


That is gone forever. When we are cutting benefits for ordinary


people, seeing people really struggling, you have to say to


everybody, don't just squeeze the British budget, we should be


squeezing the European budget as well. I think that is consensus.


When the Prime Minister goes to Brussels, I don't think anything is


going to happen this side of Christmas because they can't get an


agreement. There comes a time when the British Prime Minister, he


looks and says, I can't we get this real-terms freeze. They have picked


it up more. Do the Lib Dems then support him using the veto? We will


support the Prime Minister getting the best deal possible for Britain


out of these negotiations. Last night has damaged that. What is the


answer to my question? Will you support in using the veto if he


cannot deliver your policy, which is a real-terms freeze? I think


it's helpful in negotiations for the other partners in the


negotiations to think we might use the veto. I don't think that's


particularly unhelpful. If the Prime Minister does, can he count


on the support of the Lib Dems? think the Prime Minister can count


on our support for negotiating the best possible deal. That's the kind


of thing you don't actually reveal in advance. You are not going to


come on and say you will support in getting the worst possible deal!


is the Ed Balls school of diplomacy, setting out your red lines before


$:/STARTFEED. Cameron will go into the meeting saying, I have got all


these nutters on my back. When you look at the polls, only one in 20


people regard the European Union as a vital issue. That is from 20th


October 12. Only 5% mentioned the EU as an important issue facing


Britain today. What do they think about tax, standards of living,


benefits for disabled people? Public spending and borrowing? This


is an issue that overlaps with all of those things. And what about


bringing paedophiles and terrorists back to this country to face


justice? We have got all sorts of agreements. You are allowing Euro-


scepticism to weaken Britain's stance. I want to be on a BBC


programme that does not mention the word paedophile. Is your party not


in danger of going back to a civil war over Europe. You are all Euro-


sceptics. You have got degrees of Euro-scepticism. Do you want TV


you? No, I do not. Do you? No he does not. You had very sound people


voting last night. They are sound people are in Europe. Dominic voted


with the Government. The party is not split, the party wants to


support the Prime Minister in cutting the European budget. There


are different factions of Euro- sceptics. The Conservative Party


needs to get its act together. is not like Maastricht when there


was a real split. He is too young to have lived through that.


showed a speech that was a bit more like the Maastricht debate. The


Conservative Party is far more united about the European Union.


This was about... Do you want a referendum that says in or out?


would like a mandate referendum. Do the British people agree the


British Government should negotiate a new deal about trade? Nick Clegg


this morning, he said, he described the Prime Minister's plans to


repatriate powers, which is the long-term aim of the Conservatives


as a, quote, false promises wrapped in the Union Jack. Is it that no


major powers should be in a packed? I do not think it is an unwise


thing to do. So will it is not a false promise? There are some


powers you can repatriate through agreement and negotiation.


Fisheries is an example. The promise that you can repatriate


whole sell large chunks of our relationship with Europe is


unrealistic. We are still all on the European train. We are not


going to be in the front driving, because we do not want to be in the


European federation. But all the rules that exist on the single


market are going to be dominated by the group at the front. Take


banking union, they will decide what regulations they want. It will


not take long for the commission to decide, let's make it a rule for


everybody, and we will be out voted. If they are going to be a


federation and have fiscal and banking union, we need a completely


different kind of relationship. Otherwise we will be ruled by


federal Europe and have no control. We have become so semi-detached


from the rest of Europe that we are in the west of possible worlds and


we lose influence. Like Norway and Switzerland you have to comply with


dozens of rules. I do not agree with that. A but they do not have


any influence over it. Europe and the euro-zone is going to change.


Every expert says they have to change because of the problems they


have. Once that happens if there is an opportunity for us to have a


different settlement. The British public will then and should have


the right to buy their back or not bat that new relationship.


Repatriation is a longer term aim, you probably have more of that in


your manifesto. If the Prime Minister comes back from Brussels


with a real-terms freeze, not with a cut, but with a real-terms freeze


from 2014-2020, you will be happy with that? If he came back and said,


we have got the real terms freeze which is better than what we might


have got, but we know we are stuffed because these arrangements


are completely unfair. The EU now has the right to grab more of our


money every yet whether we like it or not. What he will also have to


say is that this has to change. In the long term this has to change.


By you are not going to vote against a real-terms freeze?


think he will be leaving the public behind them. I will ask again for


the purposes of clarification, if he comes back with a real-terms


freeze, you will not vote against it? I do not know, I will wait and


see. I certainly will not. Labour are all over the place. Douglas


Alexander was saying he does not know what he is going to do. He is


waiting to see what the deal is. said he would not know whether to


vote for a real-terms freeze. will be an impressive piece of


negotiation given last night. If we triumph over that, that would be


good. There will be no veto and no deal. Then the budget rises every


year by inflation. Then they will put it off by December. Getting a


real freeze is a great result. he does not get a deal, he gets


what he wants, a real-terms freeze. Annual budgets may put the prices


up for British consumers. That is the nonsense. They really need to


have a massive change, the more you listen to this. They've voted for


an even bigger budgets. The Labour MEPs voted for a huge increase.


are on dodgy ground. The Socialists in the European Parliament voted


for an increase. We are governed by someone we do not elect. There is a


parliament, get rid of the commission. Bureaucracy is


determining how we run our things. Eruption in British politics. What


is the Government's policy on wind power? I ask that quite a lot. The


new energy minister of state, a Conservative MP, John Hayes


declared Britain had, quote, enough onshore wind farms and suggested


future projects would be blocked. But he was promptly slapped down by


his boss, Energy Secretary Ed Davey. He is a Lib Dem and he says the


policy on wind farms has not changed. Confused? Me as well. They


have been in the Commons this morning answering questions from E


-- MPs seeking clarity. I asked him why he was failing to stand up to


his colleagues who want to kill off the industry. I have to disappoint


the Right Honourable Lady because my Conservative colleagues and I


are working very closely on this matter. That was what the former


energy minister. After the outburst yesterday, how closely would he say


they were working together now? honourable friend suggested I used


the words intimately, but I can say we are working very closely. Listen,


Mr Speaker, I will face the house as you requested. He and I may


occasionally disagree on issues of substance, but I have to say I


really admire his style. So, any clearer? Not meet either. Joining


me now is Caroline Lucas and James Delingpole, the climate change


sceptic and writer, who was standing as an anti- wind farm


candidate in the Corby by-election, but you have pulled out on the


basis you have one. Absolutely, it was the shortest and most


successful election campaign of all times. I achieved my aims. I was


not in it for a tawdry place in Parliament, I wanted to rescue the


British countryside from the wind menace. There are 2600 wind


turbines already completed and running onshore and another 3000


waiting for approval. I cannot do anything about the ones already in


place, but I hope Semtex in a few years will sort out that problem.


In the meantime I have achieved... Union terrorists? I have the


expertise to destroy these things. In your own native land, Scotland


is being ruined, the land of your forefathers is being destroyed by


wind farms. I am not arguing the rights and wrongs of wind farms, I


am trying to work out how you can claim you have won it there are


another 3000 in the pipeline. is a remarkable turnaround in


Government policy. It is confusing depending on who you listen to and


is another example of the coalition being all over the place. Is there


now going to be a drag on onshore wind, or will there be a very few


more turbines going up? You are right, there is complete chaos in


the coalition. That gives a signal to investors that Britain is not


serious about investing in the economy. My worry is that the


Semtex is going to be aimed at cheaper fuel bills, jobs and a boom


in the economy. He is coming out with frankly unscientific so --


statements. It is very entertaining, but not helpful. I am surprised you


are defending wind farms. You could not get anything antique green than


a wind turbine. They kill birds, they are inefficient, the increase


Sirte 2. They are so unreliable and intermittent, wind up being wind,


they require 100% backed up by fossil fuel power on spinning


reserve. What you get his two forms of electricity being generated.


That is a perfect case in point of what I am saying. It is very


entertaining, but it lacks in any factual grounding. You do not need


100% back up. Och energy generation needs some back-up. Third, if you


have connection with the rest of Europe, you can make the most of


when it is windy in other parts of Europe. That is a huge investments.


It is less than a massive new fleet of nuclear power stations. Do you


not care about...? Britain more than almost anywhere else is one of


the best sites for wind farms because of the nature of our


climate. I personally like them, they are attractive, it is cheaper


to put them on land that in the seat. The simple fact is we are


they get on top of our carbon emissions and bring them down, or


we may not have a human civilisation by the end of this


century. We have just seen this devastation in North America in an


election campaign when neither candidate has met and climate


change. Is it the result of climate change? About once or twice a


decade there would be a catastrophic event, but now they


are coming more often. We are heading for three or four. This is


junk science from a few selected sites on the internet. It is


dreadful. There is no serious scientists I am aware of who is a


sceptic. The key thing is not how much science I know or how much you


know, it is about the majority of scientific opinion. When you have


got hundreds of scientists and if I put it to them what they like to


listen to you, or were they like to By my arithmetic, there are about


4000 turbines, currently turning in the UK and its waters. This morning,


how much electricity were they generating as a percentage of the


total amount. Accounted a maths well enough, but I can tell you


that a modern turbine will produce enough electricity for 1000 homes.


As a percentage? I reckon it is probably less than 5%. Less than 5%.


But we are just beginning. Let me give the answer. It is 3%. For all


of that damage. If 4000 turbines produce only 3% of our electricity


this morning, then we have a target of over 30% of electricity by 2020,


which is only eight years away. You are going to need a hell of a lot


of turbines? Nobody is suggesting we are doing it all by wind


turbines. We are using a range of renewable technologies and energy


efficiency. That is the Cinderella of the debate. According to the


Government's own figures, we could save 40%. Energy efficiency does


not change the percentages of where the energy is coming from. On the


plan, most of them getting renewables up to a third of the


total electricity, most of that comes from wind power. The biggest


way of coping with this is insulated your home probably.


Immediately, our electricity bill was down. Yeah, that will work!


Economies that are far more successful are rely on wind energy


more than we are. The last time, you admitted to being a watermelon,


you said, I'm proud to be a watermelon. He's plugging his book


now. In a sentence, what is government policy on onshore wind?


I think they had a massive U-turn and Ed Davey does not want to admit


it. It is completely chaotic, I hope very much that James is a


trike. If he is, it's very bad for the British economy and fuel bills.


Now, it was Enoch Powell that said all political careers end in


failure. I guess that included his own. What happens to the politician


who finds himself or herself out of power? How do they cope when the


interview requests dry up from the daily politics, they are sat


watching a box-set of the David Porter exact home and ministers are


not return your calls? In a moment will talk to Ken Livingstone. First,


we have been finding out if there There is nothing as ex-as an ex-MP,


as the saying goes. One minute you are a star turn at the Palace of


Westminster. The next, you're not. So, what do MPs do when they leave


the Commons and become common? If they are very lucky, they get to do


the thing they really love. Keen fisherman Martin Salter stood down


as an MP for Reading West in 2010 and became co-ordinator of the


Angling Trust. How does this compare to Westminster? You must


miss it? I miss the people, I had some really good friends there and


still do. I don't work 90 hours a week, I'm not public property and I


know the work he on causes I care about four people I like. It's a


great privilege to be able to speak up for a sport that has given me a


huge amount of pleasure. I thoroughly enjoy what I'm doing.


Martin is not alone in carving out a rather enjoyable niche for


himself after leaving the Commons. There is Anne Widdecombe, start of


Strictly. Former form secretary John Reid became make football club


chairman. The Lembit Opik continued to perform as a stand-up comedian.


Only kidding! A lot of former MPs going to lobbying or return to


previous MPs, but many find the transition from Member of


Parliament to the member of the public traumatic. It was


devastating, it really was. I was working long, long hours. I hope I


was doing a good job. The number of people that voted for me again, I


know I was. Sadly, there is a gap in your life way you wanted to do


things for people but that had gone. The study of ex-MPs in 2007


reported instances of nervous breakdowns, divorce and serious


debt. In 2010, a record number of parliamentarians, 148, left the


Commons. So, how easy is it to find another job? To be honest, unless


you are going into a job as an ex Cabinet minister or something like


that, if I went back into Project Management and Bass said, what did


you do? If I said I was an MP, they would say, so what? What project


did you last manage? There is not a big queue of people wanting to


employ ex-MPs. Here are a few tips on how to bring your career to a


happy end. Use the skills and abilities you have got, but


remember you are an ex-MP. Don't try to pretend you are an MP in


waiting. It's a different chapter of your life. Just deal with it.


you are in the autumn of your political career, remember that


there was life after Westminster. What you make of it is up to you.


A special welcome to viewers in Scotland who have joined as well


that was going on. There have been watching First Minister's questions


from Holyrood. We are discussing what happens after a career in


politics. What a masterpiece of planning that we had you on to


discuss this subject. The high points of your career in terms of


the positions are leader of the Greater London Council, MP for


Brent East and then mayor of London for two terms. What was the


toughest one to leave? Oh, I think when the GLC was abolished, I


assumed that something like that would be back fairly soon. I was on


my way to Parliament. I assumed at some point we would have a


socialist government. Of course, we ended up with Tony Blair! This time


round, when I lost to Boris four years ago, I immediately threw


myself into... I mean, there were so many cities around the world


that wanted me to visit, which I could not do while I was mayor. I


spent too much careers running against Boris Johnson. It's only


really after the defeat this time that it was like real retirement.


The phone stopped ringing, there were not endless meetings. Does


that really happen? Literally, I was being managed 24-seven, running


around all over the place. I was losing so much weight, pounding the


streets. Very good for your health. And suddenly it came to a stop. I


have a friend that is not very well, hadn't gone into his garden for


years. I spend all of this summer gardening, cutting down trees,


weeding... He found that therapeutic? I love it. Every day I


could see two Square feet of soil I had reclaimed. Unlike politics, I


spent the early part of 2000, 10 years ago, and lobbying to get


Crossrail open in 2018. Gardening, you see an immediate result.


general, politicians, particularly those that have had a long career


and have done things, I don't mean an MP that has been there for a


couple of years and then are gone again, politicians that have real


careers men, is it difficult in general for them to adapt once it


is over? It might be for a new generation coming up. I'm part of


the post-war generation. In act videos they were saying, get off


your backside and do something else. My partner is a generation younger


than me. My partner says, where is your emotion? Sitting around


whining about it isn't going to make any difference. Other than the


gardening, that you enjoyed, that is clear... I've got my own garden


to do, I'm doing about three gardens. It will come to an end. I


am also on the Labour NEC, I do a lot of fund-raising dinners for the


Labour Party. I go around in by- elections and all of that. I'm not


really retired, and does not holding an office. What do you do


to pay the rent? I have got my MP's salary and my mayors' pension. They


pay �20,000 a year. Then there is radio and TV work, after-dinner


speeches. �50,000 a year, I am really tough to the off. People are


struggling a lot more than made. spoke to one Labour MP that is


standing down and had been a government minister, a well-


regarded career. He said that he was going to get away from


Westminster altogether. He was actually thinking of starting a


business. That was something he had never done before. He had run


departments, but starting a business he thought would be a


fresh career. Once the gardens are all done, I might build you a


wildlife garden firm? I would quite enjoy that. The only problem is


that I cannot drive, I would have to be taking everything around on


the Tube. I need you to get enough to hire a sofa.


Get your beer goggles on. We are going to talk about ale. It's a bit


early to start, well, not at the Daily Politics. But it's not too


early for MPs to debate the price of beer. They want to put a halt to


something called the beer duty escalator. Thanks. It increases the


tax on this stuff every year. The beer and pub Federation have worked


out that the average Briton spends... I cannot see where it is.


Look at that, �177 the year on beer tax. Compare that to Denmark. This


one? I can tell by the name. �64. Spanish... Can you get Spanish


beer? I didn't know that. �15 the year. That's quite a big difference.


15 for the Spanish, 67 and 177 for us. The price of beer is something


that MPs have noticed as well, and online petitioner has attracted


100,000 signatures. Andrew Griffiths has represented


petitioners in the House of Commons this morning. Here he is, in that


Daily Politics pub. Is it a good thing that the Government has tried


to discourage people from drinking? We all want responsible drinking,


that is absolutely right. The taxation system we have at the


moment is encouraging people to drink spirits, to drink wine and,


actually, beer, a great British product, is suffering as a result.


Since the beer duty escalator was introduced, we have seen beer sales


drop by 16%. We have seen five Crest Close for why his beer are


suffering more? As I understand, or of alcohol is subject to this


escalator? Under a Scottish Chancellor, we had 10 years of a


freeze on Scottish whisky. Because beer is drunk in pubs more so, this


is impacting on community pubs to a large extent. It is forcing growers


to struggle. It is forcing pubs to close. -- growers. Do you have any


evidence... We know pubs are closing, but what is the evidence


that this duty escalator, pushing it up more than the price of


inflation, is contributing? Most pubs, they get 50% of their profits


from beer. Not only is it damaging pubs and brewers, it is not raising


any money. The Treasury forecast shows that in the next four years


it will raise no money because sales are dropping as a result. We


are shooting ourselves in the foot. If they scrap the beer duty


escalator, we would see real growth in the sector. It seems you have a


mountain to climb at a time when the Chancellor is desperate for


money. He's got to cut public spending, he has been putting up


taxes as well. Getting a cut in the beer tax, it seems that it's not


going to be that easy? Look at duty on cider. Should you going to lay


pub and have a pint of bitter or a pint of cider, there is 50 pence


difference in the duty that you pay on a pint of beer. So, every time


somebody chooses cider instead of beer, the Treasury is losing 50p.


Also, the cider makers have 50 pence tax breaks to spend on


promoting their products and marketing and advertising. When you


put your points to the Prime their stand the Chancellor about this,


what did they say to you as they sip their champagne? I think we all


know. David Cameron loves a pint of bitter. He has been photographed on


many occasions drinking fine Burton Ale. That doesn't mean he likes it,


it means he knows that the cameras are there! He is an beer mother. We


have reached a turning point. The thing about a beer escalator is


that when you get to the top you stop and get off. We have reached


the point where the escalator is not raising any money for the


Treasury. It's actually costing jobs and costing sales. Stick with


us. Don't go away. Ken Livingstone's reaction. Everybody


that wants to cut a tax on something always tells me, whatever


it is, it's not raising money $:/STARTFEED. And one pub in London


in every 10 closes every year. Most people put their life savings into


renting a chub -- pub from a giant corporation and then they are


forced to buy their alcohol from them about two or three times the


price they can get from the supermarket. P but are drinking at


home because it is cheaper. Thatcher, give her her due, she got


rid of the tied cottage, but it has crept back and it forces the public


to buy from giant corporations. British beer a pub Federation works


hand-in-hand with the giant corporations? Yes, that is right


and the industry has had some problems and some self regulation


has been brought in. One of the big problems is the supermarkets. They


use alcohol as a loss-leader and have driven the prices down and as


a result we see more people drinking at home unsupervised.


ary briefly because we have run out of time, on a scale of 1 to 10, 10


being good for you, what is the chance of you getting this at the


next Budget? I am optimistic. I would say nine, Andrew, I'm a


born optimist. That is certainly optimistic. Have one on me. I have


eight tab behind the bar. When the contract to run the West Coast main


line was handed to FirstGroup, there were cries of foul play from


Virgin Trains. Richard Branson claimed the Department for


Transport had got their calculations wrong. The protest was


dismissed as sour grapes. Then last month the Transport Minister had to


admit there were serious flaws in the franchise process. Yesterday he


faced MPs on the transport committee. The mistakes which were


made on the InterCity West Coast franchise should not have been made


and they were serious for the Department. We have apologised to


the bidders involved and the taxpayers who have a right to


expect better. Would the interim report, which can only be described


as a damning indictment of the Department, and the report found


the department knew the process was flawed and lacked transparency,


that it changed the rules at the last minute without telling the


bidders and acted unfairly and was aware it was open to legal


challenge. In view of all of that, do you wish you could have asked


more questions in the department before you came to the conclusion


that you're content with the way things had been done? Guided ask


questions and I was assured when I came here in the little time I had,


it was shortly after my appointment, within a week that I was here, but


I was not in the Department for the whole week, but I was a steward the


award of the franchise was safe, it was technically said. Do I regret


not asking more questions? I think I would have been sure that


although there were some small issues that had come to light, I


was assured that would have had no change on the overall awarding of


the franchise. That was the new Transport Secretary before the


Transport Select Committee in the Commons. Is it time to


renationalise the trains? Ken Livingstone has long argued they


should be taken back under state control. We are joined by Richard


Wellings, from the Institute of Economic Affairs, he thinks they


should stay in private hands. Summarise the case for state


ownership. You go back to Adam Smith. If you have a monopoly,


people will still permute. The only time was when British Airways was


privatise, they were not ripped off because they had competition will


start we have got the highest energy prices in Europe. If you


give somebody a monopoly or a cartel, they will rip us off.


disagree. There have been several successes on the railway. A big


increase in passenger numbers and freight, investment in the


infrastructure, but the process is we did not have proper


privatisation. Civil servants decide to run the trains. Somebody


has to decide to the franchise goes too. That is not a genuine


privatise stretch. If you look at vertical integration, the same


company owned the trains and the track and that would have been more


wet sufficient. We can see the difference. In London the Mayor


controls the bus companies and regulates them and they have to run


as the Mayor directs. Outside London it is a free for all.


Anybody going on a bus in London, and anyone getting on outside


London, they will all say in London they are brilliant and outside it


is ghastly. It is a regulated market? The Mayor tells them how


often they will run the service. Basically it could be run by the


Meyer. One of the arguments was British Rail was taking up too much


in subsidy. When I look at the figures, now we have privatise it


is a lot more. Over �5 billion worth of subsidies going into the


railways. It is a massive problem, it has tripled since privatisation.


That is a lot of money. It is disgraceful. In it is not


privatisation. The railway companies are sub-contractors for


the state. We should try it proper privatisation. What does that mean?


We get away from all the layers of bureaucracy, as we see with the


Civil Service taking a role and it would bring costs down. Who would


decide to run a train from London to Manchester. The company would


buy both the tracks and run the trains and it would be after them.


There is no railway in the world that makes a profit, everyone has


to be subsidised. That is not the case. In the 19th century the


railways were built by the private sector. It is a changed world.


there is more competition so the monopoly threat is reduced.


watched this when I was Mayor. I brought in a lot of Americans who


ran big things and they negotiated quite prettily with the contractors.


Part of the problem is it is now the Civil Service. Something like


the Richard Branson fiasco comes up, they might negotiate a contract


every few years. But you need people who do this every year.


Civil servants do not have those skills to negotiate with giant


corporations. On his side up the argument, passenger numbers are up.


I do not know if the camera can get this. This graph is quite


remarkable. Suddenly after privatisation it goes up. Under


British Rail the number of passengers had been in gentle


decline. Passenger numbers are up, apparently from the surveys


passenger satisfaction is high, and we have one of the safest railways


in Europe. Public transport is taking off again because travelling


on the motorway is a nightmare, people are more mobile than they


used to be a. In London we have had the same thing, a 50% increase in


bus and Tube usage. People are turning to public transport. You


would have to be out of your mind to drive a car. I will give you the


final word. We need to build on this and think about the


fundamental stretch of the rail industry and can we get a subsidy


is down to a reasonable level? you very much for becoming part of


our debate will stop facial hair, there is not enough of it about


these days, as Ken will agree. Turn the clock back 30 years and any man


worth his salt would be sprouting some fine plumage on his upper lip.


But now we have got something called Movember. Once a year for a


one-month men across the world it to express themselves and strut


their stuff by growing a fine pair of handlebars. It is for a good


cause and we will be speaking to a number of MPs who are up to the


challenge. First, here are some time -- parliamentarians who used


to be brave enough to sport a fine moustache, and also some


suggestions for others who can be # 100 hairs make a man! #. It looks


like something from the Wild West. All the coalition members had


droopy ones! I am joined by the two MPs who are going to have a go. Why


are you going to do this? I am going to try and grow a moustache.


In the Somerset when I was on holiday I did not shave for a week


and I did not see the defence. But it is a very good cause raising


awareness about prostate cancer and I am willing to make an idiot of


myself. You have only got one month. It is the month of November you get


to do this. That is right and I feel like my attempt is a bit like


their UK economy, a lack of growth. But 10,000 men a year die of


prostate cancer. If we can make a difference, both in fund raising


and awareness, that will be a good thing, because it is a tableau


subject. A lot of men do not like to talk about it or go and get


check-ups and so on. Are you raising money? Our people


sponsoring you? Yes, I will be setting up a website page and I


hope people will sponsor me. Also Royal Mail have pledged for every


pound we raised, they will match that will stop her abuse started


yet because I cannot see anything? Yes, I had started. You famously


had one once, but I am told you would never bring it back. My wife


said she would have never taken up with me if I still had a moustache.


But it was the end of the Sixties and I thought I would have more


success with bells if I had a moustache. And did you? I do not


think so. I tried a beard, but my beard looked like a battered toilet


brush. They do not take off. These things come and go with fashion,


there were a lot of MPs with moustaches when I came in. Will you


keep it? I would doubt so, but I know some people who are cutting


their privet hedges into moustaches. One to about you? It in a month I


have managed to grow a fantastic moustache, which I doubt, I will


reconsider it. You have both managed expectations well, we are


not expecting much. Comeback in a month's time and tell us how it is


going. A special thanks to Ken


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