Browse content similar to 07/12/2012. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Afternoon, folks. Welcome to the Daily Politics. The IFS warn that | :00:45. | :00:48. | |
there is a �27 billion hole in the public finances looming for 2017/18 | :00:48. | :00:52. | |
and it will have to be filled by tax rises and more spending cuts | :00:52. | :00:59. | |
the other side of the general election. Happy days! We'll have | :00:59. | :01:05. | |
the details. As Starbucks wakes up, smells the coffee and says, OK, | :01:05. | :01:10. | |
we'll pay more tax. Has justice been done? Or can we all get to | :01:10. | :01:13. | |
decide the tax we will pay? A leading businessman takes on UK | :01:13. | :01:16. | |
Uncut. Would an independent Scotland need to reapply for | :01:16. | :01:21. | |
membership of the EU? Alex Salmond says no. The Scottish Secretary | :01:21. | :01:26. | |
says yes. So, it seems, does the EU Commission. We'll talk to both | :01:26. | :01:32. | |
sides. And, after one of the most moving questions in the history of | :01:32. | :01:34. | |
Prime Minister's Questions, Ann Clwyd debates the state of nursing | :01:34. | :01:44. | |
:01:44. | :01:46. | ||
care in the UK with the Royal All that in the next hour. And, | :01:46. | :01:49. | |
with us for the duration, two shrinking violets - meek Mary Ann- | :01:49. | :01:52. | |
Sieghart, columinst and chair of the Social Market Foundation - and | :01:52. | :02:02. | |
:02:02. | :02:04. | ||
shy and retiring Peter Hitchens of the Mail on Sunday. We will be | :02:04. | :02:08. | |
lucky to get a peep out of them the whole show. Now, it is a winter | :02:08. | :02:11. | |
tradition, up there with hanging out the tinsel and sinking a warm | :02:11. | :02:18. | |
glass of mulled wine. The day after the Autumn Statement, the Institute | :02:18. | :02:20. | |
for Fiscal Studies tears the Chancellor's figures limb from limb | :02:20. | :02:23. | |
until the true, horrible story emerges. It is never a pretty sight | :02:23. | :02:27. | |
and this year is no exception. Gemma Tetlow, programme director | :02:27. | :02:37. | |
:02:37. | :02:39. | ||
from the IFS, joins us with the gory details. Of the this 27 | :02:39. | :02:43. | |
billion. What you're saying is, of to meet the targets that have been | :02:43. | :02:49. | |
sent out, after the election - the Government will have to find | :02:49. | :02:55. | |
another 27 billion ING cuts or tax rises. Is that right? What the | :02:55. | :03:00. | |
centre yesterday, the Chancellor set out a plan to meet his fiscal | :03:00. | :03:07. | |
mandate by the end of 27/18. In order to do that, he needs to | :03:07. | :03:12. | |
implement the additional spending cuts. If you want to avoid cutting | :03:12. | :03:18. | |
departmental spending further, he would need to find �27 billion. | :03:19. | :03:25. | |
did you know? We have no idea what will happen next it in the economy. | :03:25. | :03:35. | |
How do you know what will happen in 2017/18? There is clearly a huge | :03:35. | :03:39. | |
amount of uncertainty about what will happen in the next few years. | :03:40. | :03:44. | |
That is always the case - particularly so at the moment. It | :03:44. | :03:49. | |
is important the Government has an idea of what will happen in order | :03:49. | :03:54. | |
to plan public finances. It could turn out things are better or worse. | :03:54. | :04:03. | |
The current government may not be in power by 2017/18. Maybe not | :04:03. | :04:09. | |
George Osborne, Danny Alexander or Nick Clegg's problems. They have so | :04:09. | :04:14. | |
set out plans at the moment and have said they will set out plans | :04:14. | :04:17. | |
for the following year, which would take us through to the point of the | :04:17. | :04:22. | |
next general election. What happens in the next parliament will still | :04:22. | :04:29. | |
be an clear and will depend on who comes into power. -- not clear. | :04:29. | :04:39. | |
:04:39. | :04:42. | ||
the cuts on the horizon? Even if the economy returns to growth of | :04:42. | :04:50. | |
3%? They do think there is a significant output gap remaining by | :04:50. | :04:56. | |
2018. There was still be scope for growth beyond 2018. If that was not | :04:56. | :05:02. | |
the case, further cuts will be required. It is clearly very | :05:02. | :05:08. | |
uncertain. Coming a little closer to where we are, it is my | :05:08. | :05:14. | |
understanding that for two dozen and 16/17, part of which will fall | :05:14. | :05:24. | |
:05:24. | :05:25. | ||
under the -- 2015/16, part of which will fall under the cover and -- | :05:25. | :05:30. | |
the current government and then we will have a general election. | :05:30. | :05:34. | |
set out an additional �4 billion worth of welfare cuts. They said | :05:34. | :05:38. | |
the remaining spending cuts will come from public services. They | :05:38. | :05:43. | |
said the same protection for some departments would continue, as we | :05:43. | :05:48. | |
had in the current Spending Review. That does mean the squeeze on the | :05:49. | :05:55. | |
remaining areas will be harsher than the average. It has been more | :05:55. | :06:00. | |
harsh over the current four years. It will squeeze the same | :06:00. | :06:05. | |
departments. Every time the Chancellor appears, he announces he | :06:05. | :06:10. | |
is going to borrow more than he had previously thought he was going to | :06:10. | :06:15. | |
borrow. He has told us he will borrow more again in the Autumn | :06:15. | :06:19. | |
Statement. Why should we believe these figures, since he is | :06:19. | :06:25. | |
consistently wrong? Since 2010, we have seen a consistent pattern of | :06:25. | :06:31. | |
economic growth underperforming. That is feeding through into a | :06:31. | :06:35. | |
worsening outlook for the public finances as well. It is extremely | :06:35. | :06:39. | |
to the will to know what will happen. That is essentially what | :06:39. | :06:43. | |
has been happening over recent years as problems in the eurozone | :06:43. | :06:49. | |
have been causing further weakness in the UK. Do your eyes ever glaze | :06:49. | :06:54. | |
over at all these figures? Personally, I find them very | :06:54. | :07:00. | |
interesting but it is a lot to get your head around. Sadly, so do live. | :07:00. | :07:09. | |
Bankia very much for joining us. -- thank you very much. When you stand | :07:09. | :07:13. | |
back from the Autumn Statement and look at the figures - borrowing, | :07:13. | :07:18. | |
debt, growth going down - the continued squeeze on living | :07:18. | :07:25. | |
standards into next year, it is remarkable he got the press he did. | :07:25. | :07:32. | |
His entire plan is failing. He is not cutting the deficit. He is not | :07:33. | :07:37. | |
cutting debt and will probably lose the sacred AAA credit rating that | :07:37. | :07:42. | |
he has been doing all this for. The whole point was, I have to do this | :07:42. | :07:49. | |
or the financial markets will take flight and it will be a disaster. | :07:49. | :07:54. | |
He will lose his AAA credit rating even though he has done all this | :07:54. | :07:59. | |
and he has not reduced the deficit all got debt down by the time of | :07:59. | :08:06. | |
the next election. Fiscal conservatism, debt reduction, that | :08:06. | :08:09. | |
was the core of the economic strategy. Are the wheels coming | :08:09. | :08:15. | |
off? It was fake to start with. There has been an incredible | :08:15. | :08:21. | |
increase in borrowing and the debt is continuing to rise. We are a | :08:21. | :08:29. | |
fast, welfare junkie, unable to get itself off enormous taxes. Spending | :08:29. | :08:33. | |
is falling into is just tax revenues are falling as fast and | :08:33. | :08:39. | |
the deficit is not shrinking. falling relatively. There is no | :08:39. | :08:49. | |
:08:49. | :08:49. | ||
serious attempt to change the nature of the country. | :08:49. | :08:55. | |
Government's strategy, or whether it is right is another matter, the | :08:55. | :09:00. | |
Government inherited a situation where the state spent over 50% of | :09:00. | :09:03. | |
our national wealth on the trajectory they're trying to hit, | :09:03. | :09:11. | |
it goes below 40%. That is a huge cut. If it ever happens. At the | :09:11. | :09:15. | |
moment where the country is too dependent on state spending. It is | :09:15. | :09:20. | |
not a crisis out of which we will emerge and the cash tills will | :09:20. | :09:25. | |
start to ring again. This is the moment at which we begin to | :09:26. | :09:32. | |
experience serious economic decline. There is no end to this. If you are | :09:32. | :09:36. | |
going to cut state spending, and you do need to do that, you need to | :09:36. | :09:41. | |
do it at a time when other parts of the economy can pick up the slack. | :09:41. | :09:45. | |
There is consumer spending, business investment, state spending | :09:45. | :09:51. | |
and exports. Exports are shot to hell and businesses are not | :09:51. | :09:54. | |
investing. Consumers are not spending because real incomes are | :09:54. | :10:00. | |
being cut. It is a terrible time to be cutting government spending. It | :10:00. | :10:10. | |
:10:10. | :10:10. | ||
reduces growth and tax revenues. Hillary Clinton has arrived in | :10:10. | :10:16. | |
Belfast this morning over decisions to take down the Union flag, which | :10:16. | :10:24. | |
flies above City Hall. And last night came a reminder of the threat | :10:24. | :10:26. | |
of dissident Republican violence with arrests after the discovery of | :10:26. | :10:29. | |
a bomb in Londonderry. Hardly the ideal backdrop to the high-profile | :10:29. | :10:39. | |
:10:39. | :10:39. | ||
visit. What is the latest on the ground of the unrest, sparked off | :10:39. | :10:45. | |
by the argument over the flag? is right. There are separate things | :10:45. | :10:52. | |
going on. On the one hand, there is the loyalist unhappiness about this | :10:52. | :10:56. | |
decision to dramatically restrict the flying of the Union flag from | :10:56. | :11:02. | |
City Hall. We saw more trouble last night related to the protests in | :11:03. | :11:06. | |
Ballymena. Several vehicles have been damaged and two young men have | :11:07. | :11:12. | |
been arrested. We have also heard of a death threat which has been | :11:12. | :11:17. | |
made to an alliance Party MP. The Alliance party was involved in | :11:17. | :11:23. | |
voting for this decision to restrict the flying of the flags. | :11:23. | :11:28. | |
Naomi Long, the MP in question, who has been threatened. Police have | :11:28. | :11:34. | |
advised her to leave her home. She will not be doing so. She is | :11:34. | :11:39. | |
determined to continue in her democratically-elected role. | :11:39. | :11:43. | |
Obviously, a great deal of concern about that. On the other side, | :11:43. | :11:48. | |
about the dissident republicans and the discovery of a viable | :11:48. | :11:52. | |
improvised explosive device yesterday evening. Is it expected | :11:52. | :11:58. | |
to get worse? It is difficult to say. There is concern on behalf of | :11:58. | :12:03. | |
the police that it well. They are hoping it will not. They are urging | :12:03. | :12:07. | |
people from all sides did think carefully about what they're doing | :12:07. | :12:15. | |
and where it might be heading. -- to think. Hillary Clinton, one | :12:15. | :12:22. | |
imagines she will have a similar message. She is meeting Peter | :12:22. | :12:32. | |
:12:32. | :12:33. | ||
Robertson -- Robinson at the moment. Is this a farewell tour? Is it the | :12:33. | :12:38. | |
start of her campaign for the presidency in 2016? I do not think | :12:38. | :12:43. | |
people are saying all that much about it. She is not here for very | :12:43. | :12:50. | |
long - just a few hours. One does wonder whether it is not kind of a | :12:50. | :12:57. | |
valedictory visit, designed to put into the minds of people the | :12:57. | :13:01. | |
success her husband a tutor in Northern Ireland and to put that | :13:01. | :13:09. | |
fresh in the minds of others. As for the visit, it has been | :13:09. | :13:14. | |
overshadowed by these new tensions - renewed tensions. It is well | :13:14. | :13:19. | |
worth pointing out that we are by no means where we were before the | :13:19. | :13:25. | |
peace process started. It is a very different landscape from the one | :13:25. | :13:32. | |
she initially visited years ago. What a ill-thought so on mess? | :13:32. | :13:39. | |
Interesting about the flag. -- what are your thoughts on this? If you | :13:39. | :13:44. | |
surrender, you have to take your flag down. On government buildings, | :13:44. | :13:53. | |
it has been illegal to fly the Union flag since 2000. The Hall in | :13:53. | :13:58. | |
Belfast is falling into line with the rest. The flat poll is bear on | :13:58. | :14:08. | |
:14:08. | :14:08. | ||
government buildings in Northern Ireland. -- the flagpole. Those are | :14:08. | :14:18. | |
:14:18. | :14:22. | ||
the days on which it can be flown - state birthdays. In 1998, under | :14:22. | :14:28. | |
pressure from the Clintons, this country surrendered to the IRA. | :14:28. | :14:34. | |
They wanted a united Ireland. will get one. All that stands | :14:34. | :14:40. | |
between the transfer of Northern Ireland and the centenary of the | :14:40. | :14:47. | |
Irish Free State, which would have been in 2016... All it takes is for | :14:47. | :14:54. | |
that referendum to happen and the boat to go the way the Republicans | :14:54. | :14:59. | |
want. If there is a referendum, it is up to the people of Northern | :14:59. | :15:06. | |
Ireland. Do you think the majority of people will vote for a union? | :15:06. | :15:10. | |
Democratic change and the blatant weakness of the British connection. | :15:10. | :15:14. | |
The problem with Northern Ireland has always been that one group or | :15:14. | :15:24. | |
the other dominates. You are seeing, since the beginning of the process, | :15:24. | :15:32. | |
putting down riots involving people waving illegal Union Jacks. Peace | :15:32. | :15:40. | |
has not been achieved. It is much more juice -- peaceful than it was. | :15:40. | :15:45. | |
If you are an individual, living in Northern Ireland, you face a lot of | :15:45. | :15:50. | |
criminal intimidation from the crime families, to which we | :15:50. | :15:55. | |
surrendered the province in 1998. It is hugely more peaceful. That is | :15:55. | :16:01. | |
why we are surprised to hear two devices have been found. It is a | :16:01. | :16:05. | |
surprise and it used not to. have to see that what has happened | :16:05. | :16:11. | |
is it is much lower level. Intimidation and hostility... For | :16:12. | :16:17. | |
people living there, it is quite frightening. Is it any different | :16:17. | :16:23. | |
from the tough areas of Glasgow and Manchester? It is. There is a | :16:23. | :16:27. | |
sectarian gangster element. The idea that republicanism is disarmed | :16:28. | :16:37. | |
:16:38. | :16:43. | ||
is absurd. Who do you think these What happened here... The Clintons | :16:43. | :16:48. | |
fixed on the Irish issue as a way of getting back to working-class | :16:48. | :16:52. | |
Catholic vote which they had lost over abortion. They had no interest | :16:52. | :16:57. | |
in Ireland, it was a cynical exercise in American domestic | :16:57. | :17:01. | |
politics. Right. Up Now, the coffee chain Starbucks is | :17:01. | :17:04. | |
in giveaway mode - excellent, mine's a skinny latte - but the | :17:04. | :17:07. | |
handout in question is cash not coffee after they caved in to | :17:07. | :17:10. | |
public pressure yesterday and said they'd pay more in tax over the | :17:10. | :17:13. | |
next couple of years. The company, along with other multinationals | :17:13. | :17:16. | |
like Google and Amazon, have faced a public outcry over the amount of | :17:16. | :17:19. | |
corporation tax they pay in this country. Starbucks says it will pay | :17:19. | :17:22. | |
"a significant amount of tax during 2013 and 2014, regardless of | :17:22. | :17:30. | |
whether the company is profitable". Starbucks' troubles began after it | :17:30. | :17:33. | |
was revealed that in 14 years operating in the UK, they have only | :17:33. | :17:36. | |
paid �8.6 million in corporation tax despite UK sales of nearly �400 | :17:36. | :17:46. | |
:17:46. | :17:47. | ||
million in 2011 alone. That was all perfectly legal, but it came | :17:47. | :17:49. | |
against a background of a tax avoidance clampdown that George | :17:49. | :17:55. | |
Osborne has said can raise an extra �10 billion. The Chancellor's | :17:55. | :17:57. | |
sidekick, The Chief Secretary to the Treasury, Danny Alexander, was | :17:57. | :18:01. | |
so outraged that, along with many other customers in the UK, he was | :18:01. | :18:05. | |
boycotting the chain. Starbucks defended themselves by pointing out | :18:05. | :18:13. | |
they operate 750 stores across the UK and they employ 8,500 people. | :18:13. | :18:16. | |
But yesterday they threw in the towel, offering a windfall for the | :18:16. | :18:19. | |
Treasury - should they accept it - of �20 million in extra tax over | :18:19. | :18:25. | |
the next two years. But that won't be enough for campaigners UK Uncut, | :18:25. | :18:29. | |
who plan to go ahead with protests in the Starbucks coffee shops this | :18:29. | :18:35. | |
weekend. With us to debate the great coffee climbdown is Andrew | :18:35. | :18:37. | |
Perloff, chairman of property investment company Panther | :18:37. | :18:47. | |
:18:47. | :18:47. | ||
Securities, and Anna Walker from tax campaigners UK Uncut. Welcome | :18:47. | :18:54. | |
to both of you. Clearly, Starbucks must have felt, obviously they are | :18:54. | :18:58. | |
under pressure from public opinion, but they must have felt it is | :18:58. | :19:01. | |
amazing we got away with paying so little tax we better cough up some | :19:01. | :19:10. | |
more. Asking my opinion? Yes. People talk about tax. Really, they | :19:10. | :19:16. | |
are talking about corporation tax, which is a small slice paid on | :19:16. | :19:24. | |
profit. Starbucks pays between 10 and �15 million property tax on | :19:24. | :19:29. | |
their shops. Whether they make a profit or not, whether they sell | :19:29. | :19:36. | |
one cup of coffee or not. We all do. We pay council tax, VAT, national | :19:36. | :19:41. | |
insurance, it doesn't let us off paying income tax. Her no, but they | :19:41. | :19:47. | |
still paid 10 to �15 million, they pay taxes on the payroll, a huge | :19:47. | :19:54. | |
amount, they employ 8,500 people, they probably create employment at | :19:54. | :19:59. | |
50% of that on all of their suppliers, who either make money | :19:59. | :20:06. | |
and pay tax, they pay VAT. Let me stop you. They don't pay VAT. We | :20:06. | :20:13. | |
pay VAT. They collected four HMRC. Every company does this. Costa | :20:13. | :20:17. | |
Coffee does it, other British companies for up they also pay | :20:17. | :20:23. | |
corporation tax. No, their benefit to the country is the amount they | :20:23. | :20:27. | |
come out -- create for the country. You have to say, well, what would | :20:27. | :20:31. | |
happen if they are not there. People would go to other coffee | :20:31. | :20:37. | |
shops. Can't necessarily. shortage on the high street. | :20:37. | :20:42. | |
There's 100,000 shops vacant in the high street. These people take | :20:42. | :20:49. | |
properties, spend money, pay VAT on the shop fitting, create jobs, | :20:49. | :20:52. | |
create business. It is spread around the economy. Let me bring in | :20:52. | :20:59. | |
UK Uncut. You haven't really won because it is almost a medieval | :20:59. | :21:03. | |
situation where the powerful barons of business can go to the | :21:03. | :21:08. | |
Government and negotiate how much tax they will pay as a like the | :21:08. | :21:12. | |
medieval landlords did with the king. I agree completely and that | :21:12. | :21:16. | |
is why we are protesting against a box tomorrow. It is not up to | :21:16. | :21:22. | |
Starbucks to pick and choose how much it wants to pay. This �10 | :21:23. | :21:28. | |
million it is claiming, promising, it will pay, is essentially a �10 | :21:28. | :21:34. | |
million PR stunt. It will probably come out of the PR budget. Her I | :21:34. | :21:38. | |
imagine so. We are calling for the Government to clamp down on tax | :21:38. | :21:42. | |
avoidance, as it keeps saying it will, but it is not actually taking | :21:42. | :21:47. | |
any action whatsoever. Starbucks has not promised to change the way | :21:47. | :21:53. | |
it operates globally or in the UK. It will still be siphon in its | :21:53. | :21:58. | |
profits that it is making off the back of its sales here out of the | :21:58. | :22:02. | |
UK and claiming it is not a profitable company. All Starbucks | :22:02. | :22:07. | |
is doing is following the rules. I would suggest the real villains are | :22:07. | :22:10. | |
the politicians across the road from here who over the years have | :22:10. | :22:14. | |
agreed to things that allows Starbucks to be able to do that, | :22:14. | :22:19. | |
have made the rules so complicated that you spend a ton of money on | :22:19. | :22:23. | |
expensive accountants and you will find ways to do it. If the system | :22:23. | :22:27. | |
was simple, no deductions, no loopholes, they would not get away | :22:27. | :22:32. | |
with it. Absolutely and that is why we are calling on the Government to | :22:32. | :22:36. | |
complete a radical reform in tax legislation. It is this government, | :22:36. | :22:40. | |
the last government, which did create these loopholes that | :22:40. | :22:43. | |
multinational companies like Starbucks and Amazon and are | :22:44. | :22:48. | |
exploiting. That is what is wrong, particularly at a time of economic | :22:48. | :22:53. | |
crisis. What do you say? You have not said anything sensible. That is | :22:53. | :23:00. | |
no change here! They create jobs. The biggest problem in this country | :23:00. | :23:09. | |
is we have too many unemployed or they create business, they are | :23:09. | :23:12. | |
based in property. I won't talk about the internet, they are | :23:12. | :23:17. | |
property-based. They have taxes they can't escape from. They have - | :23:17. | :23:21. | |
- we have one of the highest property taxes in the world. | :23:21. | :23:25. | |
you saying no company should pay corporation tax because they are | :23:25. | :23:30. | |
helping the economy in other ways? I'm not saying that. Whether they | :23:30. | :23:35. | |
expand or not, they choose. If they stopped expanding their shops, they | :23:35. | :23:39. | |
would probably go into profit quicker, but by expanding and using | :23:39. | :23:44. | |
the profits they are making, which goes back into expanding the | :23:44. | :23:47. | |
business, they create more employment which creates hidden | :23:47. | :23:54. | |
benefits. Anybody could say that. It is only the companies that pay | :23:54. | :23:58. | |
for the politicians, the civil service and all the unemployment | :23:58. | :24:02. | |
benefits, it is only paid by the businesses that create business. | :24:02. | :24:08. | |
such piety. Why is everybody so keen on paying tax themselves to a | :24:08. | :24:11. | |
government that is constantly being exposed as incompetent and | :24:11. | :24:15. | |
wasteful? It throws away large amounts of money on things we don't | :24:15. | :24:20. | |
like and don't want. It can't run a decent school system, transport | :24:20. | :24:26. | |
system. Why are we so keen on paying tax? Even Labour politicians, | :24:26. | :24:32. | |
given the chance to avoid legally, a bit of inheritance tax on their | :24:32. | :24:37. | |
parents' houses when they inherit them, will do what is necessary to | :24:37. | :24:41. | |
get around paying tax. Almost anyone with the opportunity to pay | :24:41. | :24:46. | |
next tasks will take it. Who do you think will end up paying if | :24:46. | :24:49. | |
Starbucks pays more corporation tax? Their customers of Starbucks. | :24:49. | :24:56. | |
More money from your pocket into the hands of an incompetent... | :24:56. | :25:04. | |
There's no shortage of coffee shops. Starbucks is the one not paying the | :25:04. | :25:09. | |
tax. What do we get for the tax we pay? What do we get for tax? Let's | :25:09. | :25:15. | |
think about it. Schools... At bad schools. Patricia schools, some of | :25:15. | :25:20. | |
the worst schools in the advanced schools. -- atrocious schools. | :25:20. | :25:30. | |
:25:30. | :25:33. | ||
need schools. We need nurses. is a really important question. To | :25:33. | :25:37. | |
say that nobody should bother paying tax, I don't... We should be | :25:37. | :25:43. | |
sceptical about tax. Tax pays for roads and rubbish collection and | :25:43. | :25:49. | |
education and nurses and people to survive. He is and there and | :25:49. | :25:55. | |
unfairness... Excuse me. We've heard that many times. Isn't there | :25:55. | :26:00. | |
and unfairness in the situation where British-based competitors of | :26:00. | :26:04. | |
Starbucks, British-owned, because they can't do the international | :26:04. | :26:08. | |
jiggery-pokery that Starbucks is doing with royalty fees being | :26:08. | :26:12. | |
charged so it depresses profits, they are a disadvantage in | :26:12. | :26:19. | |
competing with Starbucks. That is rubbish. Why? Do you think they | :26:19. | :26:25. | |
don't do their own accountancy arrangements? Excuse me, at the | :26:25. | :26:29. | |
British coffee shops pay a lot more tax than Starbucks. Costa Coffee is | :26:29. | :26:37. | |
one example. The depends. Of a expanding? Yes. They are. They are. | :26:37. | :26:42. | |
I don't know, you're saying that. Do you think they are consulting | :26:42. | :26:46. | |
with lawyers to see if they can't pay less? People are always trying | :26:46. | :26:51. | |
to pay less tax. You talk about... You say they are not paying their | :26:51. | :26:57. | |
tax. They are paying a minimum corporation tax. If there should be | :26:57. | :27:02. | |
anything payable. They are not breaking the law. No one has raised | :27:02. | :27:07. | |
that issue. Another thing, the Revenue have got the cleverest | :27:07. | :27:12. | |
people in the country working for them, investigating. They have been | :27:12. | :27:19. | |
cut. No no. Yes, by �3 billion... They have got whole sections | :27:19. | :27:23. | |
dealing with complicated corporate affairs. If they think for one | :27:23. | :27:28. | |
minute a company is cheating to a degree that is unacceptable, they | :27:28. | :27:34. | |
can close it down in a day. They don't do that. If the rules are | :27:34. | :27:38. | |
wrong, I accept, it is for the Government to change the rules. If | :27:38. | :27:43. | |
they play by the Rolls, that is fair. I need to quit on this | :27:43. | :27:49. | |
agreement. It is taxation by media. A witch hunt by 90% of the people | :27:50. | :27:54. | |
who have not the slightest idea how it works and the benefits they get. | :27:54. | :27:59. | |
Starbucks is interesting... We are running out of time. Don't start. | :27:59. | :28:04. | |
They employ a lot of young people. You've already said that. By on a | :28:04. | :28:10. | |
minimum wage. I think we will stop there. If the rules are wrong, they | :28:10. | :28:17. | |
should be changed, we are agreed on that. But not Peter. | :28:17. | :28:20. | |
Now, Prime Minister's Questions is usually an entirely raucous and, | :28:20. | :28:23. | |
you might say, childish affair where the baying mob wins out every | :28:23. | :28:27. | |
week. But occasionally, a question comes that rises above all that and | :28:27. | :28:33. | |
silences the House. It happened on Wednesday when Labour's Ann Clywd, | :28:33. | :28:36. | |
whose husband died in October after NHS treatment which she compared to | :28:36. | :28:39. | |
that of a battery hen, stood up to put a question to David Cameron. | :28:39. | :28:49. | |
:28:49. | :28:53. | ||
Have a look at this. Ann Clwyd. Universal healthcare | :28:53. | :28:57. | |
system free at the point of delivery is what the overwhelming | :28:57. | :29:03. | |
majority of the British people want. Something which I remain firmly | :29:03. | :29:09. | |
committed to. However there are increasing complaints about nurses | :29:09. | :29:14. | |
who fail to show care and compassion to their patients. What | :29:14. | :29:19. | |
exactly will the prime minister do about that? The honourable lady | :29:19. | :29:23. | |
speaks for the whole house and the whole country in raising this issue | :29:23. | :29:27. | |
and I know how painful it must have been with what she has witnessed in | :29:27. | :29:32. | |
her own life and with her own family. I am, as she is, a massive | :29:32. | :29:37. | |
fan of the NHS, an enormous fan of the fact it is free at the point of | :29:37. | :29:41. | |
use, you don't produce a credit card in hospital and my own family | :29:41. | :29:46. | |
has had extraordinary care through the NHS. But we don't do the NHS or | :29:46. | :29:50. | |
nurses any favours if we don't. Elk there are very real problems in | :29:50. | :29:57. | |
parts of our health and care And Ann Clywd joins me now, along | :29:57. | :30:01. | |
with Janet Davies - the Director of Nursing at the Royal College of | :30:01. | :30:09. | |
Nursing. Many people will have seen you on Prime Minister's Questions. | :30:09. | :30:19. | |
:30:19. | :30:19. | ||
It is a difficult subject for you. What happened? What I saw was lack | :30:19. | :30:26. | |
of compassion, lack of care, dismissive and us, lack of people | :30:26. | :30:33. | |
to talk to. I was ill for about four days before my husband died | :30:33. | :30:38. | |
and I was not able to going. I rang up every day and was told he was | :30:39. | :30:44. | |
doing well and had had a good night. On the Sunday - the day before he | :30:44. | :30:49. | |
died - the staff were said to make on the telephone, we see no reason | :30:49. | :30:56. | |
why he should not be home next week. I thought, that is fine. On Monday | :30:56. | :31:01. | |
morning, a few hours later, I got the call from a hospital saying he | :31:01. | :31:07. | |
was very ill and he had got an infection - pneumonia. As soon as I | :31:07. | :31:14. | |
heard that word, I knew pretty much what that meant. I had been | :31:14. | :31:20. | |
dreaming at night about him being cold. The days I had been with him | :31:20. | :31:27. | |
in A&E for 24 hours, it was very cold. I kept asking when he would | :31:27. | :31:34. | |
be put on a ward. I stood by him a second day in A&E for two-and-a- | :31:34. | :31:42. | |
half hours. You could not text from inside because there was no signal. | :31:42. | :31:48. | |
I asked my PA to ring an administrator to try and get an | :31:48. | :31:54. | |
administrator. Two-and-a-half hours later they came and he was put on a | :31:54. | :31:57. | |
a respiratory ward that nine. I developed a respiratory infection | :31:57. | :32:03. | |
and they told me not to come in. I was ringing once a day to find out | :32:03. | :32:13. | |
how he was. I felt ignored. I felt he was ignored. Let me come on to | :32:13. | :32:18. | |
that. There was a system failure here, in one situation. I've got | :32:18. | :32:23. | |
the impression you also felt the care he received was much lower | :32:23. | :32:30. | |
quality than it should have been. just did not see the personal care. | :32:30. | :32:35. | |
On the Monday before he died, after a went into hospital after having | :32:35. | :32:43. | |
that call, I sat by his bed from 2:30pm until 10:30pm, I only saw | :32:43. | :32:49. | |
one round. And kept trying to stop someone in the corridor and say, | :32:49. | :32:55. | |
why is my house when not on intensive care? The answer was, | :32:55. | :33:01. | |
there are lots of people worse than him. I asked another question and | :33:01. | :33:07. | |
was brushed aside. I do not expect special treatment but we knew our | :33:07. | :33:12. | |
concern for someone who is very pale, there should be some | :33:12. | :33:20. | |
appreciation of that. -- very ill. I was on the Commission for the NHS. | :33:20. | :33:24. | |
In 1979, we received much evidence expressing concern about declining | :33:24. | :33:31. | |
standards of care. The RCN claimed that standards had been put at risk | :33:31. | :33:35. | |
because of financial constraints, increased workload and manpower | :33:35. | :33:40. | |
shortages. In hospitals they submitted neglect of basic nursing | :33:40. | :33:47. | |
routines. This is 30 years ago. me bring in Janet Davies at the | :33:47. | :33:51. | |
Royal College of Nursing. Is there something going wrong in the | :33:51. | :33:57. | |
culture of Nursing which causes these things to happen? This is a | :33:57. | :34:02. | |
terrible story. As a nurse, I find it very distressing rummy his | :34:02. | :34:12. | |
stories of poor nursing. Why does it happen? The Prime Minister said | :34:12. | :34:18. | |
there is no silver bullet. It is a complex situation. The majority of | :34:18. | :34:24. | |
nurses do a very good job. They are passionate about their roles and | :34:24. | :34:29. | |
their careers. There are situations when it goes wrong. Nurses come | :34:29. | :34:34. | |
into nursing because they want to nurse. It is not an easy course and | :34:34. | :34:38. | |
something goes wrong with some nurses. Not in recruitment but | :34:38. | :34:45. | |
something later on in their career. We need to pinpoint what goes wrong. | :34:45. | :34:49. | |
They are a multiple reasons that we can see. The first one is, the | :34:49. | :34:53. | |
nurse themselves. Usually they are tired, overworked of May maybe the | :34:53. | :34:59. | |
wrong person for the wrong job in the wrong place. Secondly, they | :34:59. | :35:04. | |
have to have the support, culture and resource to do their job | :35:04. | :35:07. | |
properly. They need the right attitude of managers, support | :35:07. | :35:13. | |
around them, the right equipment and training. We are seeing too | :35:13. | :35:18. | |
often that nurses are well qualified. It does not stop. You | :35:18. | :35:27. | |
need a freshers and time - time to reflect. -- refreshers. Have we | :35:27. | :35:33. | |
made too much of the need... We have made it almost a degree | :35:33. | :35:38. | |
profession now? Have we put too much emphasis on that and not | :35:38. | :35:42. | |
enough on the attitudes and compassion and the attitude of the | :35:42. | :35:47. | |
individual to do this difficult job? A mean look at this and when | :35:47. | :35:53. | |
we talk to student nurses, we rarely see a case that involves a | :35:53. | :35:59. | |
student nurse. -- when we look at this. We hear stories like this | :35:59. | :36:04. | |
again and again. We do not hear stories where everything goes right. | :36:04. | :36:08. | |
People acknowledge it is a minority problem but it seems to be a | :36:08. | :36:13. | |
growing minority problem. recognise it is a problem and we | :36:13. | :36:18. | |
certainly need to make sure it does not happen to other people. I agree, | :36:18. | :36:24. | |
the majority of nurses, I'm sure, care. I have had hundreds of e- | :36:24. | :36:28. | |
mails since I decided to go public. It is very difficult to talk about | :36:28. | :36:38. | |
and I did not really want to do it. Hundreds of letters! Somebody had | :36:38. | :36:43. | |
said, a doctor said in an article in the Telegraph a few weeks ago, | :36:43. | :36:49. | |
since they made nursing a degree course, they get the wrong people. | :36:49. | :36:56. | |
They think they are above the menial tasks. We need compassionate | :36:56. | :36:59. | |
nurses who are entering the profession because they care for | :36:59. | :37:05. | |
people and not for the salary. completely agree with that. I am | :37:05. | :37:10. | |
amazed that nurses are not assessed on their caring skills as well as | :37:10. | :37:16. | |
their computer input skills. They're actually doing the job. Why | :37:16. | :37:23. | |
aren't patients asked, how we shall care? How compassionate eye on | :37:23. | :37:29. | |
nurses? -- How was your care? Patients are terrified of | :37:29. | :37:33. | |
complaining because the in such a vulnerable position and that nurses | :37:33. | :37:42. | |
will take out -- taking out on them. First of all, I am very sorry for | :37:42. | :37:50. | |
your loss. This has been going on for so long that it really is time | :37:50. | :37:59. | |
to do something about it. There was a thing called Project 2000 | :37:59. | :38:04. | |
introduced in 1988, which is the beginning of the transformation of | :38:04. | :38:09. | |
Nursing into a supposedly graduate profession, as opposed to what it | :38:09. | :38:19. | |
:38:19. | :38:21. | ||
was before. My aunt sauna sink as a disciplined - self sacrificing and | :38:21. | :38:26. | |
humorous but not to be viewed in the terms that any other way of | :38:26. | :38:36. | |
:38:36. | :38:37. | ||
life was. She saw that disappear before she retired. Something was | :38:37. | :38:43. | |
lost when we tried to make nurses graduate professionals. I really do | :38:43. | :38:48. | |
think the RCN has to recognise this and so do politicians. Big mistakes | :38:48. | :38:55. | |
were made, particularly in the 1980s. What we have done at the RCN | :38:55. | :38:59. | |
is recognised there was a problem. They have said there is no hiding | :38:59. | :39:05. | |
place for poor nursing. The issue about graduate nurses, we have said, | :39:05. | :39:11. | |
we need to look at theirs. We commissioned Lord Willis to do an | :39:11. | :39:15. | |
independent commission on theirs. He has found there is no evidence | :39:15. | :39:21. | |
that becoming a graduate professional has reduced any | :39:21. | :39:26. | |
quality. In fact, they have improved quality. There is no | :39:26. | :39:30. | |
research behind what you're saying but there is to say many graduate | :39:30. | :39:37. | |
Nursing has made a difference. get the same sort of letters that | :39:37. | :39:43. | |
and gets on the subject. If you have not got compassion in nursing, | :39:43. | :39:52. | |
you should not be there. If you do not have the compassion, do not go | :39:52. | :40:02. | |
:40:02. | :40:04. | ||
there. Thank you. Now it is the political row which has got all of | :40:04. | :40:09. | |
Asia talking. The new design for the Chinese passport shows a map | :40:09. | :40:15. | |
with territories that are disputed And now the US say they will raise | :40:15. | :40:18. | |
the issue with Beijing too. Who knew the humble passport could be | :40:18. | :40:21. | |
so political? Adam has been finding out just how much. You cannot leave | :40:21. | :40:26. | |
home or your home country without it. How much to the really notice | :40:26. | :40:34. | |
our passports? It is a bit worrying. What do you think that passport | :40:34. | :40:39. | |
says about South Africa as a country? Very little. Where are you | :40:39. | :40:45. | |
from? I am from Belgium. What does the Belgian passport has in terms | :40:46. | :40:53. | |
of design features? That is in Brussels. A Belgian monument. | :40:53. | :41:00. | |
passport was issued in 2009. They were going through a third phase. | :41:00. | :41:06. | |
Now they are filled with British Land marks instead. What does a | :41:06. | :41:14. | |
Libyan passport look like? Just a green one. All the Libyans are | :41:14. | :41:19. | |
waiting to change this passport. Few people care as much as | :41:19. | :41:24. | |
immigration official turned author, Martin Lloyd, who has a collection | :41:24. | :41:32. | |
of 400 of them. This was issued by France in 1820. It was issued to a | :41:32. | :41:39. | |
Spanish refugee, who was applying for asylum in France. That is a | :41:39. | :41:43. | |
description of the man, right down to the colour of his eyebrows, the | :41:43. | :41:49. | |
shape of his chin and knows - everything. It is a British | :41:49. | :41:54. | |
passport. A single sheet of paper bound in leather covers by the | :41:54. | :42:03. | |
Passport agent. Passport number 13. It is signed in hand by the British | :42:03. | :42:08. | |
Foreign Secretary - your palms stone - at the bottom. This is a | :42:08. | :42:13. | |
Cypriot passport. -- Lord Palmerston. The people in the north | :42:13. | :42:18. | |
of the island could only get a Turkish passport. They were issued | :42:18. | :42:24. | |
with this. The Turkish Federated state of Cyprus. It is a travel | :42:24. | :42:31. | |
document and not a passport. That is a very political passport. | :42:31. | :42:35. | |
British pass was got political in the mid- 1980s when the old Blue | :42:35. | :42:42. | |
gave way to EU Burgundy. -- passports. It caused consternation | :42:42. | :42:46. | |
at the highest levels. Both Mrs Thatcher and Lord Carrington were | :42:47. | :42:51. | |
doubtful about it a conscious of the sensitivities and | :42:51. | :42:58. | |
misunderstandings that might make people think Britain had lost | :42:58. | :43:03. | |
control. I do remember that when the passports were eventually | :43:03. | :43:06. | |
issued, Jeffrey Howe when he was then Foreign Secretary, he insisted | :43:06. | :43:13. | |
on having the first one. When you think about it, they really are | :43:13. | :43:19. | |
lots of passports floating around the world. 47 million UK once, 37 | :43:19. | :43:23. | |
million Chinese ones and 130 million belonging to US citizens. | :43:23. | :43:28. | |
You thought the most interesting thing about your passport was the | :43:28. | :43:35. | |
photo. It is a fake! No it is not. Does it matter have a passport | :43:36. | :43:42. | |
looks? They all look the same, don't they? Exactly. I used to love | :43:42. | :43:49. | |
my old British passport. It was wonderful and elegant. We had to | :43:49. | :43:54. | |
give it up for the paper one. point was it was not a British | :43:54. | :44:01. | |
passport any more. It was a European Union passport. A retired | :44:01. | :44:08. | |
Lithuanian KGB colonel has the same passport. There is no such thing as | :44:08. | :44:11. | |
British citizenship or a British frontier and we have lost it. | :44:11. | :44:21. | |
People should pay more attention. There is controversy in the air | :44:21. | :44:27. | |
about Scottish independence. The latest row was in the Scotsman | :44:27. | :44:31. | |
newspaper. It suggested an independent Scotland may have to | :44:31. | :44:35. | |
reapply for EU membership. Let's see what the Scottish Secretary | :44:35. | :44:44. | |
Has the British Government sought legal advice on Scotland's status? | :44:44. | :44:48. | |
We've taken legal advice and we publish the fact we took it some | :44:48. | :44:55. | |
weeks ago. We have an initial view that the most likely scenario is | :44:55. | :44:59. | |
that the rest of the UK would continue as the member state, | :44:59. | :45:03. | |
Scotland would have to apply and Scotland would have to negotiate | :45:03. | :45:08. | |
its terms and conditions. That is a huge set of issues for us when we | :45:08. | :45:13. | |
contemplate what is at stake for independence and for businesses in | :45:13. | :45:18. | |
particular, at a time when three- quarters of businesses say they are | :45:18. | :45:23. | |
very worried about independence. Are you saying for British | :45:23. | :45:28. | |
Government has legal advice that if Scotland votes to leave the UK, it | :45:28. | :45:32. | |
is in effect also leaving the European Union and would have to | :45:32. | :45:37. | |
reapply as a new member? Is that the import of the legal advice you | :45:37. | :45:43. | |
have? The advocate general, one of the UK Government's law officers, | :45:43. | :45:48. | |
has made public speeches about this in the last few weeks. We are doing | :45:48. | :45:52. | |
a lot of work on this, we've looked at the international precedents, | :45:52. | :45:59. | |
we've looked at the weight of academic opinion and our initial | :45:59. | :46:04. | |
views of that the most likely scenario is the UK stays as the | :46:04. | :46:09. | |
member state and Scotland would have to apply to join the EU again. | :46:09. | :46:14. | |
How quick and complex a process that is, nobody knows. But the | :46:14. | :46:19. | |
terms and conditions, I think, are the key to this. The UK has a lot | :46:19. | :46:26. | |
of Dr Putts on the euro and other things. Scotland has huge interests | :46:26. | :46:30. | |
in six fishing and agriculture. None of that is certain and all of | :46:30. | :46:34. | |
that is a worry. Forgive me for coming back to the original | :46:34. | :46:40. | |
question. Your second dancer was a little different from the first. -- | :46:40. | :46:45. | |
answer. You said it looks as if Scotland would have to reapply. Can | :46:45. | :46:51. | |
I clarified... Have you had divinity Atif British legal advice | :46:51. | :46:58. | |
to that effect or not? Definitive. Can I make the distinction? The | :46:58. | :47:02. | |
First Minister had some difficulty with this a month ago. We have | :47:02. | :47:10. | |
answered a question that we have legal advice within government. On | :47:10. | :47:15. | |
the basis of that, the Advocate- General, one of the law officers of | :47:15. | :47:20. | |
the UK government, has been public set out what we draw from that. We | :47:20. | :47:25. | |
don't comment on whether or not we have taken the advice itself, that | :47:25. | :47:30. | |
his ministerial code that is well established, but people can see we | :47:30. | :47:35. | |
are being clear that the most likely scenario, based on our | :47:35. | :47:39. | |
initial research and consideration, is that the rest of the UK stays in | :47:39. | :47:48. | |
vu you -- he used, Scotland would have to reapply to join the EU. | :47:48. | :47:52. | |
will understand that the most likely scenario, which is your | :47:52. | :47:57. | |
phrase, is very different from saying we've had definitive legal | :47:57. | :48:00. | |
advice from the highest law officers in the land, the best | :48:00. | :48:04. | |
advice this government can get, that Scotland will have to leave | :48:04. | :48:08. | |
and reapply. I don't think you are telling me that this morning, are | :48:08. | :48:13. | |
you? I am saying exactly the same as Jim Wallace has said in public, | :48:13. | :48:17. | |
as I've said to the Scottish Parliament and other places. The | :48:17. | :48:20. | |
distinction between what we are saying and what the Scottish | :48:20. | :48:24. | |
government are saying is that they don't have legal advice and they | :48:24. | :48:28. | |
have stopped all sorts of court proceedings a round that issue. We | :48:28. | :48:33. | |
are looking at the balance of the probabilities. What is the expert | :48:33. | :48:39. | |
opinion? What is the President? We think it is the most likely | :48:39. | :48:44. | |
scenario. Very few people are doing anything different to that. If you | :48:44. | :48:47. | |
are right on the balance of probabilities in Scotland, if it | :48:47. | :48:53. | |
votes to leave the UK, then have to reapply to join the EU, is there | :48:53. | :49:01. | |
any doubt... Surely the run EU would want Scotland to join. Plenty | :49:02. | :49:06. | |
of people would rather see Scotland in and be glad to see the back of | :49:06. | :49:12. | |
England! The point I would make is that it is a serious issue about | :49:12. | :49:16. | |
Scotland's status at that moment, but much more significant will be | :49:17. | :49:21. | |
the terms and conditions of that membership. There's no country that | :49:21. | :49:25. | |
has joined since 2005 which has been able to escape the obligation | :49:26. | :49:31. | |
to adopt the single currency. Likewise, the Shangla knocked out | :49:31. | :49:35. | |
which we have around border controls is one that would have to | :49:35. | :49:40. | |
be specially negotiated. None of that is clear from the way the SNP | :49:40. | :49:44. | |
are putting for their argument, but it's absolutely critical to | :49:44. | :49:48. | |
businesses, individuals and families. We have to get these | :49:48. | :49:53. | |
things nailed down. The uncertainty of those terms and conditions is | :49:53. | :49:57. | |
the big worry for people across the country. One quick question on an | :49:57. | :50:04. | |
unrelated matter. Your role as a Privy Counsellor. The Telegraph | :50:04. | :50:09. | |
newspaper reporting that as part of a system of regulation of the | :50:09. | :50:13. | |
newspapers, David Cameron is considering setting up a new press | :50:13. | :50:17. | |
watchdog by royal charter, which would mean the Privy Council would | :50:17. | :50:24. | |
be involved. Can you confirm that? As you know, since Lord Leveson's | :50:24. | :50:29. | |
report was published, the two parties in the coalition and | :50:29. | :50:34. | |
opposition parties have all been considering their response to that. | :50:34. | :50:37. | |
The specific proposals from each of the parties will be brought forward | :50:37. | :50:41. | |
over the next few weeks and we will look forward to the debate that | :50:41. | :50:46. | |
will ensue. His there discussion that would please the Lib Dems | :50:46. | :50:52. | |
about regulation involving a royal charter? We have got a number of | :50:52. | :50:55. | |
discussions going on between ourselves and the coalition | :50:55. | :51:00. | |
partners. Discussions across Parliament as well. Discussions in | :51:00. | :51:04. | |
Scotland, too. None of the detail is sorted out yet, none of the | :51:05. | :51:08. | |
proposals have got to a point where they are agreed. In the next few | :51:08. | :51:12. | |
weeks we will see that emerge and we will build up a proper debate | :51:12. | :51:16. | |
about the right way forward. Her go inside and get warm! Thank you for | :51:16. | :51:24. | |
joining us. By the man some gloves! And listening to that from our | :51:24. | :51:26. | |
Edinburgh studio is Alyn Smith - he's a Scottish Nationalist Member | :51:26. | :51:36. | |
of the European Parliament. We've always been told, and I've been | :51:36. | :51:39. | |
personally told by Alex Salmond, that there's no question that if | :51:39. | :51:44. | |
Scotland leaves the UK it remains part of the European Union. Without | :51:44. | :51:50. | |
a hiccup. You can't say that any more, can you? Yes, we can. It is | :51:50. | :51:54. | |
really important that we understand the significance of the Edinburgh | :51:54. | :51:59. | |
agreement within this context. Where people... Michael Moore, I | :51:59. | :52:02. | |
lost count of how many caveats he was sticking in to everything he | :52:02. | :52:09. | |
was saying. We need to look at the reality can of how the EU operates. | :52:09. | :52:14. | |
It is an expansionist organisation. This is unprecedented. There's no | :52:14. | :52:23. | |
rule book. The same way we universe's -- reunification with | :52:23. | :52:26. | |
East Germany was impossible, a way will be found. All of the certainty | :52:26. | :52:33. | |
we have, our students are already part... I understand that. You want | :52:33. | :52:39. | |
to stay in, I understand that, that is not the argument. Let me put | :52:39. | :52:43. | |
what the EU Commission letter says. It says, if a territory of the | :52:43. | :52:47. | |
member state ceases to be part of that member state, in other words | :52:47. | :52:51. | |
Scotland if it voted to leave the UK, because it has become an | :52:51. | :52:55. | |
independent state, the treaties would cease to apply to that | :52:55. | :53:00. | |
territory. That is quite clear. You would have to reapply. There's a | :53:00. | :53:04. | |
couple of points I will make. That letter doesn't actually exist and | :53:04. | :53:09. | |
hasn't been signed off by the European Commission. We are seeing | :53:09. | :53:13. | |
a black cops operation by the Scotsman which does it no credit. - | :53:13. | :53:21. | |
- Black operations. The Edinburgh agreement makes very clear that for | :53:21. | :53:25. | |
people of Scotland have a choice to make in 2014 which decides the | :53:25. | :53:28. | |
principle whereupon there is a series of negotiations between | :53:28. | :53:33. | |
Edinburgh and London and the European Commission has made it | :53:33. | :53:38. | |
very clear, six months ago, that the commission will take due | :53:38. | :53:42. | |
cognisance of a negotiated agreement between the two parts of | :53:42. | :53:46. | |
the former UK. Are you claiming this letter doesn't exist and that | :53:46. | :53:49. | |
the Scotsman made it? commission made that very clear | :53:49. | :53:56. | |
yesterday. Are you saying... It has not been signed off. That is | :53:56. | :54:00. | |
different. Are you claiming this letter doesn't exist and the | :54:00. | :54:04. | |
Scotsman made it up? There has been no letter sent and how the Scotsman | :54:04. | :54:09. | |
managed to see that letter. That is not what I've asked. Are you | :54:09. | :54:14. | |
claiming this letter doesn't exist? I've made various calls to Brussels | :54:14. | :54:17. | |
and I've been told of the letters exist in various parts, but it | :54:17. | :54:22. | |
doesn't exist as a unified document. How the Scotsman managed to see | :54:22. | :54:27. | |
various bits out of context is very curious. I think it is called | :54:27. | :54:33. | |
original journalism and getting as good! May be imposed Leveson... You | :54:33. | :54:37. | |
call it black operations, which is why a lot of newspapers don't want | :54:37. | :54:43. | |
to be regulated by people like you. Isn't it perfectly possible, if the | :54:43. | :54:46. | |
commission is right and the Secretary of State for Scotland is | :54:46. | :54:50. | |
right, and I appreciate there were a lot of Pavia to what he said, | :54:50. | :54:54. | |
that if you vote for independence, you'll have to negotiate with | :54:54. | :54:58. | |
London the terms of the divorce and at the same time you will have to | :54:58. | :55:02. | |
be negotiating with Brussels the terms of your re-entry as an | :55:02. | :55:08. | |
independent nation into the EU? Firstly, the use of the word | :55:08. | :55:12. | |
divorce is very emotionally-charged. We are negotiating a new status | :55:12. | :55:17. | |
within the EU. Are we not allowed to use that word? You can if you | :55:17. | :55:21. | |
like. But it is not like for like. We negotiate a new status from | :55:22. | :55:25. | |
within, we are part of the EU presently. There's implications for | :55:25. | :55:31. | |
both sides. Scotland will increase its MEP representation and the UK | :55:31. | :55:36. | |
will lose some MEPs. We are talking about negotiation over the details | :55:36. | :55:40. | |
and the housekeeping. The principle will be decided by the people of | :55:40. | :55:44. | |
Scotland and then we have a period of negotiations where we saw that | :55:44. | :55:48. | |
out. The EU aspects will be as nothing compared to the | :55:48. | :55:52. | |
negotiations that will be happening between Edinburgh and London. The | :55:52. | :55:57. | |
European Commission is based on law and human rights. It will take due | :55:57. | :56:00. | |
copper dickens -- cognisance of the democratic opinion of the people of | :56:00. | :56:04. | |
Scotland foot off thank you very much. | :56:04. | :56:08. | |
Time now to see what else has been hitting the headlines in the last | :56:08. | :56:17. | |
seven days - here's Giles with the In the wake of Leveson, Fleet | :56:17. | :56:21. | |
Street's finest were called in to Number Ten to thrash out some House | :56:21. | :56:29. | |
Rules in a sobering session in the last chance saloon. Meanwhile, | :56:29. | :56:32. | |
Wills and Kate baby joy!!Is it twins?! Less happy news from a | :56:32. | :56:35. | |
different palace - George Osborne told us that along with us, the | :56:35. | :56:38. | |
royal nipper won't be able to rub two silver spoons together until | :56:38. | :56:43. | |
2018. It's wonderfully news, they will make brilliant parents. | :56:43. | :56:48. | |
Britain is heading in the right direction. The road is hard, but we | :56:48. | :56:51. | |
are making progress. Goal gaping for Labour's star | :56:51. | :56:56. | |
striker, but was the Balls in the back of the net? The national | :56:56. | :57:05. | |
deficit is not rising... Is rising. It is not falling. Although there | :57:05. | :57:08. | |
was some good news for the Treasury, when Starbucks says it would | :57:08. | :57:11. | |
"coughee" up some more tax. And, talking of good news, | :57:11. | :57:21. | |
:57:21. | :57:27. | ||
Do you think this Budget, and I will call it a budget, will start | :57:27. | :57:32. | |
unravelling this weekend? It is already unravelling. We have the | :57:32. | :57:35. | |
Daily Mail and the Daily Telegraph talking about the money tax, | :57:35. | :57:41. | |
talking about how maternity pay will be cut in real terms. Then | :57:41. | :57:46. | |
there rather big figures we were talking about with the IFS. How | :57:46. | :57:52. | |
will they find �27 billion worth of cuts? We have 30 seconds. They | :57:52. | :57:56. | |
always unravel. One trembles for freedom of the press in an | :57:56. | :57:59. | |
independent Scotland after seeing what we just heard. That is the | :58:00. | :58:07. | |
biggest lesson from this week's programme. Black Ops. The other | :58:07. | :58:11. | |
change in Britain is I've never seen a government so far away from | :58:11. | :58:17. | |
the next election not able to get any growth going before that | :58:17. | :58:22. | |
election. They got it wrong. A lot of people have said that for a long | :58:22. | :58:26. | |
time. It is one of the wonderful things about not being attached for | :58:26. | :58:30. | |
of -- to a political party that has been clear to me since the | :58:30. | :58:32. | |
beginning. That's all for today. Thanks to our | :58:32. | :58:36. | |
guests - special thanks to Peter and Mary Ann. I'll be back on BBC | :58:36. | :58:39. | |
One on Sunday with the Sunday Politics, when I'll be talking to | :58:39. | :58:41. |