07/12/2012 Daily Politics


07/12/2012

Andrew Neil with the latest political news, interviews and debate.


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Afternoon, folks. Welcome to the Daily Politics. The IFS warn that

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there is a �27 billion hole in the public finances looming for 2017/18

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and it will have to be filled by tax rises and more spending cuts

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the other side of the general election. Happy days! We'll have

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the details. As Starbucks wakes up, smells the coffee and says, OK,

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we'll pay more tax. Has justice been done? Or can we all get to

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decide the tax we will pay? A leading businessman takes on UK

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Uncut. Would an independent Scotland need to reapply for

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membership of the EU? Alex Salmond says no. The Scottish Secretary

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says yes. So, it seems, does the EU Commission. We'll talk to both

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sides. And, after one of the most moving questions in the history of

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Prime Minister's Questions, Ann Clwyd debates the state of nursing

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care in the UK with the Royal All that in the next hour. And,

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with us for the duration, two shrinking violets - meek Mary Ann-

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Sieghart, columinst and chair of the Social Market Foundation - and

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shy and retiring Peter Hitchens of the Mail on Sunday. We will be

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lucky to get a peep out of them the whole show. Now, it is a winter

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tradition, up there with hanging out the tinsel and sinking a warm

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glass of mulled wine. The day after the Autumn Statement, the Institute

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for Fiscal Studies tears the Chancellor's figures limb from limb

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until the true, horrible story emerges. It is never a pretty sight

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and this year is no exception. Gemma Tetlow, programme director

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from the IFS, joins us with the gory details. Of the this 27

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billion. What you're saying is, of to meet the targets that have been

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sent out, after the election - the Government will have to find

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another 27 billion ING cuts or tax rises. Is that right? What the

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centre yesterday, the Chancellor set out a plan to meet his fiscal

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mandate by the end of 27/18. In order to do that, he needs to

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implement the additional spending cuts. If you want to avoid cutting

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departmental spending further, he would need to find �27 billion.

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did you know? We have no idea what will happen next it in the economy.

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How do you know what will happen in 2017/18? There is clearly a huge

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amount of uncertainty about what will happen in the next few years.

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That is always the case - particularly so at the moment. It

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is important the Government has an idea of what will happen in order

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to plan public finances. It could turn out things are better or worse.

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The current government may not be in power by 2017/18. Maybe not

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George Osborne, Danny Alexander or Nick Clegg's problems. They have so

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set out plans at the moment and have said they will set out plans

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for the following year, which would take us through to the point of the

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next general election. What happens in the next parliament will still

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be an clear and will depend on who comes into power. -- not clear.

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the cuts on the horizon? Even if the economy returns to growth of

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3%? They do think there is a significant output gap remaining by

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2018. There was still be scope for growth beyond 2018. If that was not

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the case, further cuts will be required. It is clearly very

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uncertain. Coming a little closer to where we are, it is my

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understanding that for two dozen and 16/17, part of which will fall

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under the -- 2015/16, part of which will fall under the cover and --

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the current government and then we will have a general election.

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set out an additional �4 billion worth of welfare cuts. They said

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the remaining spending cuts will come from public services. They

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said the same protection for some departments would continue, as we

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had in the current Spending Review. That does mean the squeeze on the

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remaining areas will be harsher than the average. It has been more

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harsh over the current four years. It will squeeze the same

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departments. Every time the Chancellor appears, he announces he

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is going to borrow more than he had previously thought he was going to

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borrow. He has told us he will borrow more again in the Autumn

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Statement. Why should we believe these figures, since he is

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consistently wrong? Since 2010, we have seen a consistent pattern of

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economic growth underperforming. That is feeding through into a

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worsening outlook for the public finances as well. It is extremely

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to the will to know what will happen. That is essentially what

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has been happening over recent years as problems in the eurozone

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have been causing further weakness in the UK. Do your eyes ever glaze

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over at all these figures? Personally, I find them very

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interesting but it is a lot to get your head around. Sadly, so do live.

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Bankia very much for joining us. -- thank you very much. When you stand

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back from the Autumn Statement and look at the figures - borrowing,

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debt, growth going down - the continued squeeze on living

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standards into next year, it is remarkable he got the press he did.

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His entire plan is failing. He is not cutting the deficit. He is not

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cutting debt and will probably lose the sacred AAA credit rating that

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he has been doing all this for. The whole point was, I have to do this

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or the financial markets will take flight and it will be a disaster.

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He will lose his AAA credit rating even though he has done all this

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and he has not reduced the deficit all got debt down by the time of

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the next election. Fiscal conservatism, debt reduction, that

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was the core of the economic strategy. Are the wheels coming

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off? It was fake to start with. There has been an incredible

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increase in borrowing and the debt is continuing to rise. We are a

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fast, welfare junkie, unable to get itself off enormous taxes. Spending

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is falling into is just tax revenues are falling as fast and

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the deficit is not shrinking. falling relatively. There is no

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serious attempt to change the nature of the country.

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Government's strategy, or whether it is right is another matter, the

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Government inherited a situation where the state spent over 50% of

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our national wealth on the trajectory they're trying to hit,

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it goes below 40%. That is a huge cut. If it ever happens. At the

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moment where the country is too dependent on state spending. It is

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not a crisis out of which we will emerge and the cash tills will

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start to ring again. This is the moment at which we begin to

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experience serious economic decline. There is no end to this. If you are

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going to cut state spending, and you do need to do that, you need to

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do it at a time when other parts of the economy can pick up the slack.

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There is consumer spending, business investment, state spending

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and exports. Exports are shot to hell and businesses are not

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investing. Consumers are not spending because real incomes are

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being cut. It is a terrible time to be cutting government spending. It

:10:00.:10:10.
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reduces growth and tax revenues. Hillary Clinton has arrived in

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Belfast this morning over decisions to take down the Union flag, which

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flies above City Hall. And last night came a reminder of the threat

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of dissident Republican violence with arrests after the discovery of

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a bomb in Londonderry. Hardly the ideal backdrop to the high-profile

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visit. What is the latest on the ground of the unrest, sparked off

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by the argument over the flag? is right. There are separate things

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going on. On the one hand, there is the loyalist unhappiness about this

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decision to dramatically restrict the flying of the Union flag from

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City Hall. We saw more trouble last night related to the protests in

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Ballymena. Several vehicles have been damaged and two young men have

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been arrested. We have also heard of a death threat which has been

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made to an alliance Party MP. The Alliance party was involved in

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voting for this decision to restrict the flying of the flags.

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Naomi Long, the MP in question, who has been threatened. Police have

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advised her to leave her home. She will not be doing so. She is

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determined to continue in her democratically-elected role.

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Obviously, a great deal of concern about that. On the other side,

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about the dissident republicans and the discovery of a viable

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improvised explosive device yesterday evening. Is it expected

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to get worse? It is difficult to say. There is concern on behalf of

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the police that it well. They are hoping it will not. They are urging

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people from all sides did think carefully about what they're doing

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and where it might be heading. -- to think. Hillary Clinton, one

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imagines she will have a similar message. She is meeting Peter

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Robertson -- Robinson at the moment. Is this a farewell tour? Is it the

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start of her campaign for the presidency in 2016? I do not think

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people are saying all that much about it. She is not here for very

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long - just a few hours. One does wonder whether it is not kind of a

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valedictory visit, designed to put into the minds of people the

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success her husband a tutor in Northern Ireland and to put that

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fresh in the minds of others. As for the visit, it has been

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overshadowed by these new tensions - renewed tensions. It is well

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worth pointing out that we are by no means where we were before the

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peace process started. It is a very different landscape from the one

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she initially visited years ago. What a ill-thought so on mess?

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Interesting about the flag. -- what are your thoughts on this? If you

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surrender, you have to take your flag down. On government buildings,

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it has been illegal to fly the Union flag since 2000. The Hall in

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Belfast is falling into line with the rest. The flat poll is bear on

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government buildings in Northern Ireland. -- the flagpole. Those are

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the days on which it can be flown - state birthdays. In 1998, under

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pressure from the Clintons, this country surrendered to the IRA.

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They wanted a united Ireland. will get one. All that stands

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between the transfer of Northern Ireland and the centenary of the

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Irish Free State, which would have been in 2016... All it takes is for

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that referendum to happen and the boat to go the way the Republicans

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want. If there is a referendum, it is up to the people of Northern

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Ireland. Do you think the majority of people will vote for a union?

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Democratic change and the blatant weakness of the British connection.

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The problem with Northern Ireland has always been that one group or

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the other dominates. You are seeing, since the beginning of the process,

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putting down riots involving people waving illegal Union Jacks. Peace

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has not been achieved. It is much more juice -- peaceful than it was.

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If you are an individual, living in Northern Ireland, you face a lot of

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criminal intimidation from the crime families, to which we

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surrendered the province in 1998. It is hugely more peaceful. That is

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why we are surprised to hear two devices have been found. It is a

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surprise and it used not to. have to see that what has happened

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is it is much lower level. Intimidation and hostility... For

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people living there, it is quite frightening. Is it any different

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from the tough areas of Glasgow and Manchester? It is. There is a

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sectarian gangster element. The idea that republicanism is disarmed

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is absurd. Who do you think these What happened here... The Clintons

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fixed on the Irish issue as a way of getting back to working-class

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Catholic vote which they had lost over abortion. They had no interest

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in Ireland, it was a cynical exercise in American domestic

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politics. Right. Up Now, the coffee chain Starbucks is

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in giveaway mode - excellent, mine's a skinny latte - but the

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handout in question is cash not coffee after they caved in to

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public pressure yesterday and said they'd pay more in tax over the

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next couple of years. The company, along with other multinationals

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like Google and Amazon, have faced a public outcry over the amount of

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corporation tax they pay in this country. Starbucks says it will pay

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"a significant amount of tax during 2013 and 2014, regardless of

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whether the company is profitable". Starbucks' troubles began after it

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was revealed that in 14 years operating in the UK, they have only

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paid �8.6 million in corporation tax despite UK sales of nearly �400

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:17:46.:17:47.

million in 2011 alone. That was all perfectly legal, but it came

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against a background of a tax avoidance clampdown that George

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Osborne has said can raise an extra �10 billion. The Chancellor's

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sidekick, The Chief Secretary to the Treasury, Danny Alexander, was

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so outraged that, along with many other customers in the UK, he was

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boycotting the chain. Starbucks defended themselves by pointing out

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they operate 750 stores across the UK and they employ 8,500 people.

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But yesterday they threw in the towel, offering a windfall for the

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Treasury - should they accept it - of �20 million in extra tax over

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the next two years. But that won't be enough for campaigners UK Uncut,

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who plan to go ahead with protests in the Starbucks coffee shops this

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weekend. With us to debate the great coffee climbdown is Andrew

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Perloff, chairman of property investment company Panther

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:18:47.:18:47.

Securities, and Anna Walker from tax campaigners UK Uncut. Welcome

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to both of you. Clearly, Starbucks must have felt, obviously they are

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under pressure from public opinion, but they must have felt it is

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amazing we got away with paying so little tax we better cough up some

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more. Asking my opinion? Yes. People talk about tax. Really, they

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are talking about corporation tax, which is a small slice paid on

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profit. Starbucks pays between 10 and �15 million property tax on

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their shops. Whether they make a profit or not, whether they sell

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one cup of coffee or not. We all do. We pay council tax, VAT, national

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insurance, it doesn't let us off paying income tax. Her no, but they

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still paid 10 to �15 million, they pay taxes on the payroll, a huge

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amount, they employ 8,500 people, they probably create employment at

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50% of that on all of their suppliers, who either make money

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and pay tax, they pay VAT. Let me stop you. They don't pay VAT. We

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pay VAT. They collected four HMRC. Every company does this. Costa

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Coffee does it, other British companies for up they also pay

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corporation tax. No, their benefit to the country is the amount they

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come out -- create for the country. You have to say, well, what would

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happen if they are not there. People would go to other coffee

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shops. Can't necessarily. shortage on the high street.

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There's 100,000 shops vacant in the high street. These people take

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properties, spend money, pay VAT on the shop fitting, create jobs,

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create business. It is spread around the economy. Let me bring in

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UK Uncut. You haven't really won because it is almost a medieval

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situation where the powerful barons of business can go to the

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Government and negotiate how much tax they will pay as a like the

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medieval landlords did with the king. I agree completely and that

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is why we are protesting against a box tomorrow. It is not up to

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Starbucks to pick and choose how much it wants to pay. This �10

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million it is claiming, promising, it will pay, is essentially a �10

:21:28.:21:34.

million PR stunt. It will probably come out of the PR budget. Her I

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imagine so. We are calling for the Government to clamp down on tax

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avoidance, as it keeps saying it will, but it is not actually taking

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any action whatsoever. Starbucks has not promised to change the way

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it operates globally or in the UK. It will still be siphon in its

:21:53.:21:58.

profits that it is making off the back of its sales here out of the

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UK and claiming it is not a profitable company. All Starbucks

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is doing is following the rules. I would suggest the real villains are

:22:07.:22:10.

the politicians across the road from here who over the years have

:22:10.:22:14.

agreed to things that allows Starbucks to be able to do that,

:22:14.:22:19.

have made the rules so complicated that you spend a ton of money on

:22:19.:22:23.

expensive accountants and you will find ways to do it. If the system

:22:23.:22:27.

was simple, no deductions, no loopholes, they would not get away

:22:27.:22:32.

with it. Absolutely and that is why we are calling on the Government to

:22:32.:22:36.

complete a radical reform in tax legislation. It is this government,

:22:36.:22:40.

the last government, which did create these loopholes that

:22:40.:22:43.

multinational companies like Starbucks and Amazon and are

:22:44.:22:48.

exploiting. That is what is wrong, particularly at a time of economic

:22:48.:22:53.

crisis. What do you say? You have not said anything sensible. That is

:22:53.:23:00.

no change here! They create jobs. The biggest problem in this country

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is we have too many unemployed or they create business, they are

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based in property. I won't talk about the internet, they are

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property-based. They have taxes they can't escape from. They have -

:23:17.:23:21.

- we have one of the highest property taxes in the world.

:23:21.:23:25.

you saying no company should pay corporation tax because they are

:23:25.:23:30.

helping the economy in other ways? I'm not saying that. Whether they

:23:30.:23:35.

expand or not, they choose. If they stopped expanding their shops, they

:23:35.:23:39.

would probably go into profit quicker, but by expanding and using

:23:39.:23:44.

the profits they are making, which goes back into expanding the

:23:44.:23:47.

business, they create more employment which creates hidden

:23:47.:23:54.

benefits. Anybody could say that. It is only the companies that pay

:23:54.:23:58.

for the politicians, the civil service and all the unemployment

:23:58.:24:02.

benefits, it is only paid by the businesses that create business.

:24:02.:24:08.

such piety. Why is everybody so keen on paying tax themselves to a

:24:08.:24:11.

government that is constantly being exposed as incompetent and

:24:11.:24:15.

wasteful? It throws away large amounts of money on things we don't

:24:15.:24:20.

like and don't want. It can't run a decent school system, transport

:24:20.:24:26.

system. Why are we so keen on paying tax? Even Labour politicians,

:24:26.:24:32.

given the chance to avoid legally, a bit of inheritance tax on their

:24:32.:24:37.

parents' houses when they inherit them, will do what is necessary to

:24:37.:24:41.

get around paying tax. Almost anyone with the opportunity to pay

:24:41.:24:46.

next tasks will take it. Who do you think will end up paying if

:24:46.:24:49.

Starbucks pays more corporation tax? Their customers of Starbucks.

:24:49.:24:56.

More money from your pocket into the hands of an incompetent...

:24:56.:25:04.

There's no shortage of coffee shops. Starbucks is the one not paying the

:25:04.:25:09.

tax. What do we get for the tax we pay? What do we get for tax? Let's

:25:09.:25:15.

think about it. Schools... At bad schools. Patricia schools, some of

:25:15.:25:20.

the worst schools in the advanced schools. -- atrocious schools.

:25:20.:25:30.
:25:30.:25:33.

need schools. We need nurses. is a really important question. To

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say that nobody should bother paying tax, I don't... We should be

:25:37.:25:43.

sceptical about tax. Tax pays for roads and rubbish collection and

:25:43.:25:49.

education and nurses and people to survive. He is and there and

:25:49.:25:55.

unfairness... Excuse me. We've heard that many times. Isn't there

:25:55.:26:00.

and unfairness in the situation where British-based competitors of

:26:00.:26:04.

Starbucks, British-owned, because they can't do the international

:26:04.:26:08.

jiggery-pokery that Starbucks is doing with royalty fees being

:26:08.:26:12.

charged so it depresses profits, they are a disadvantage in

:26:12.:26:19.

competing with Starbucks. That is rubbish. Why? Do you think they

:26:19.:26:25.

don't do their own accountancy arrangements? Excuse me, at the

:26:25.:26:29.

British coffee shops pay a lot more tax than Starbucks. Costa Coffee is

:26:29.:26:37.

one example. The depends. Of a expanding? Yes. They are. They are.

:26:37.:26:42.

I don't know, you're saying that. Do you think they are consulting

:26:42.:26:46.

with lawyers to see if they can't pay less? People are always trying

:26:46.:26:51.

to pay less tax. You talk about... You say they are not paying their

:26:51.:26:57.

tax. They are paying a minimum corporation tax. If there should be

:26:57.:27:02.

anything payable. They are not breaking the law. No one has raised

:27:02.:27:07.

that issue. Another thing, the Revenue have got the cleverest

:27:07.:27:12.

people in the country working for them, investigating. They have been

:27:12.:27:19.

cut. No no. Yes, by �3 billion... They have got whole sections

:27:19.:27:23.

dealing with complicated corporate affairs. If they think for one

:27:23.:27:28.

minute a company is cheating to a degree that is unacceptable, they

:27:28.:27:34.

can close it down in a day. They don't do that. If the rules are

:27:34.:27:38.

wrong, I accept, it is for the Government to change the rules. If

:27:38.:27:43.

they play by the Rolls, that is fair. I need to quit on this

:27:43.:27:49.

agreement. It is taxation by media. A witch hunt by 90% of the people

:27:50.:27:54.

who have not the slightest idea how it works and the benefits they get.

:27:54.:27:59.

Starbucks is interesting... We are running out of time. Don't start.

:27:59.:28:04.

They employ a lot of young people. You've already said that. By on a

:28:04.:28:10.

minimum wage. I think we will stop there. If the rules are wrong, they

:28:10.:28:17.

should be changed, we are agreed on that. But not Peter.

:28:17.:28:20.

Now, Prime Minister's Questions is usually an entirely raucous and,

:28:20.:28:23.

you might say, childish affair where the baying mob wins out every

:28:23.:28:27.

week. But occasionally, a question comes that rises above all that and

:28:27.:28:33.

silences the House. It happened on Wednesday when Labour's Ann Clywd,

:28:33.:28:36.

whose husband died in October after NHS treatment which she compared to

:28:36.:28:39.

that of a battery hen, stood up to put a question to David Cameron.

:28:39.:28:49.
:28:49.:28:53.

Have a look at this. Ann Clwyd. Universal healthcare

:28:53.:28:57.

system free at the point of delivery is what the overwhelming

:28:57.:29:03.

majority of the British people want. Something which I remain firmly

:29:03.:29:09.

committed to. However there are increasing complaints about nurses

:29:09.:29:14.

who fail to show care and compassion to their patients. What

:29:14.:29:19.

exactly will the prime minister do about that? The honourable lady

:29:19.:29:23.

speaks for the whole house and the whole country in raising this issue

:29:23.:29:27.

and I know how painful it must have been with what she has witnessed in

:29:27.:29:32.

her own life and with her own family. I am, as she is, a massive

:29:32.:29:37.

fan of the NHS, an enormous fan of the fact it is free at the point of

:29:37.:29:41.

use, you don't produce a credit card in hospital and my own family

:29:41.:29:46.

has had extraordinary care through the NHS. But we don't do the NHS or

:29:46.:29:50.

nurses any favours if we don't. Elk there are very real problems in

:29:50.:29:57.

parts of our health and care And Ann Clywd joins me now, along

:29:57.:30:01.

with Janet Davies - the Director of Nursing at the Royal College of

:30:01.:30:09.

Nursing. Many people will have seen you on Prime Minister's Questions.

:30:09.:30:19.
:30:19.:30:19.

It is a difficult subject for you. What happened? What I saw was lack

:30:19.:30:26.

of compassion, lack of care, dismissive and us, lack of people

:30:26.:30:33.

to talk to. I was ill for about four days before my husband died

:30:33.:30:38.

and I was not able to going. I rang up every day and was told he was

:30:39.:30:44.

doing well and had had a good night. On the Sunday - the day before he

:30:44.:30:49.

died - the staff were said to make on the telephone, we see no reason

:30:49.:30:56.

why he should not be home next week. I thought, that is fine. On Monday

:30:56.:31:01.

morning, a few hours later, I got the call from a hospital saying he

:31:01.:31:07.

was very ill and he had got an infection - pneumonia. As soon as I

:31:07.:31:14.

heard that word, I knew pretty much what that meant. I had been

:31:14.:31:20.

dreaming at night about him being cold. The days I had been with him

:31:20.:31:27.

in A&E for 24 hours, it was very cold. I kept asking when he would

:31:27.:31:34.

be put on a ward. I stood by him a second day in A&E for two-and-a-

:31:34.:31:42.

half hours. You could not text from inside because there was no signal.

:31:42.:31:48.

I asked my PA to ring an administrator to try and get an

:31:48.:31:54.

administrator. Two-and-a-half hours later they came and he was put on a

:31:54.:31:57.

a respiratory ward that nine. I developed a respiratory infection

:31:57.:32:03.

and they told me not to come in. I was ringing once a day to find out

:32:03.:32:13.

how he was. I felt ignored. I felt he was ignored. Let me come on to

:32:13.:32:18.

that. There was a system failure here, in one situation. I've got

:32:18.:32:23.

the impression you also felt the care he received was much lower

:32:23.:32:30.

quality than it should have been. just did not see the personal care.

:32:30.:32:35.

On the Monday before he died, after a went into hospital after having

:32:35.:32:43.

that call, I sat by his bed from 2:30pm until 10:30pm, I only saw

:32:43.:32:49.

one round. And kept trying to stop someone in the corridor and say,

:32:49.:32:55.

why is my house when not on intensive care? The answer was,

:32:55.:33:01.

there are lots of people worse than him. I asked another question and

:33:01.:33:07.

was brushed aside. I do not expect special treatment but we knew our

:33:07.:33:12.

concern for someone who is very pale, there should be some

:33:12.:33:20.

appreciation of that. -- very ill. I was on the Commission for the NHS.

:33:20.:33:24.

In 1979, we received much evidence expressing concern about declining

:33:24.:33:31.

standards of care. The RCN claimed that standards had been put at risk

:33:31.:33:35.

because of financial constraints, increased workload and manpower

:33:35.:33:40.

shortages. In hospitals they submitted neglect of basic nursing

:33:40.:33:47.

routines. This is 30 years ago. me bring in Janet Davies at the

:33:47.:33:51.

Royal College of Nursing. Is there something going wrong in the

:33:51.:33:57.

culture of Nursing which causes these things to happen? This is a

:33:57.:34:02.

terrible story. As a nurse, I find it very distressing rummy his

:34:02.:34:12.

stories of poor nursing. Why does it happen? The Prime Minister said

:34:12.:34:18.

there is no silver bullet. It is a complex situation. The majority of

:34:18.:34:24.

nurses do a very good job. They are passionate about their roles and

:34:24.:34:29.

their careers. There are situations when it goes wrong. Nurses come

:34:29.:34:34.

into nursing because they want to nurse. It is not an easy course and

:34:34.:34:38.

something goes wrong with some nurses. Not in recruitment but

:34:38.:34:45.

something later on in their career. We need to pinpoint what goes wrong.

:34:45.:34:49.

They are a multiple reasons that we can see. The first one is, the

:34:49.:34:53.

nurse themselves. Usually they are tired, overworked of May maybe the

:34:53.:34:59.

wrong person for the wrong job in the wrong place. Secondly, they

:34:59.:35:04.

have to have the support, culture and resource to do their job

:35:04.:35:07.

properly. They need the right attitude of managers, support

:35:07.:35:13.

around them, the right equipment and training. We are seeing too

:35:13.:35:18.

often that nurses are well qualified. It does not stop. You

:35:18.:35:27.

need a freshers and time - time to reflect. -- refreshers. Have we

:35:27.:35:33.

made too much of the need... We have made it almost a degree

:35:33.:35:38.

profession now? Have we put too much emphasis on that and not

:35:38.:35:42.

enough on the attitudes and compassion and the attitude of the

:35:42.:35:47.

individual to do this difficult job? A mean look at this and when

:35:47.:35:53.

we talk to student nurses, we rarely see a case that involves a

:35:53.:35:59.

student nurse. -- when we look at this. We hear stories like this

:35:59.:36:04.

again and again. We do not hear stories where everything goes right.

:36:04.:36:08.

People acknowledge it is a minority problem but it seems to be a

:36:08.:36:13.

growing minority problem. recognise it is a problem and we

:36:13.:36:18.

certainly need to make sure it does not happen to other people. I agree,

:36:18.:36:24.

the majority of nurses, I'm sure, care. I have had hundreds of e-

:36:24.:36:28.

mails since I decided to go public. It is very difficult to talk about

:36:28.:36:38.

and I did not really want to do it. Hundreds of letters! Somebody had

:36:38.:36:43.

said, a doctor said in an article in the Telegraph a few weeks ago,

:36:43.:36:49.

since they made nursing a degree course, they get the wrong people.

:36:49.:36:56.

They think they are above the menial tasks. We need compassionate

:36:56.:36:59.

nurses who are entering the profession because they care for

:36:59.:37:05.

people and not for the salary. completely agree with that. I am

:37:05.:37:10.

amazed that nurses are not assessed on their caring skills as well as

:37:10.:37:16.

their computer input skills. They're actually doing the job. Why

:37:16.:37:23.

aren't patients asked, how we shall care? How compassionate eye on

:37:23.:37:29.

nurses? -- How was your care? Patients are terrified of

:37:29.:37:33.

complaining because the in such a vulnerable position and that nurses

:37:33.:37:42.

will take out -- taking out on them. First of all, I am very sorry for

:37:42.:37:50.

your loss. This has been going on for so long that it really is time

:37:50.:37:59.

to do something about it. There was a thing called Project 2000

:37:59.:38:04.

introduced in 1988, which is the beginning of the transformation of

:38:04.:38:09.

Nursing into a supposedly graduate profession, as opposed to what it

:38:09.:38:19.
:38:19.:38:21.

was before. My aunt sauna sink as a disciplined - self sacrificing and

:38:21.:38:26.

humorous but not to be viewed in the terms that any other way of

:38:26.:38:36.
:38:36.:38:37.

life was. She saw that disappear before she retired. Something was

:38:37.:38:43.

lost when we tried to make nurses graduate professionals. I really do

:38:43.:38:48.

think the RCN has to recognise this and so do politicians. Big mistakes

:38:48.:38:55.

were made, particularly in the 1980s. What we have done at the RCN

:38:55.:38:59.

is recognised there was a problem. They have said there is no hiding

:38:59.:39:05.

place for poor nursing. The issue about graduate nurses, we have said,

:39:05.:39:11.

we need to look at theirs. We commissioned Lord Willis to do an

:39:11.:39:15.

independent commission on theirs. He has found there is no evidence

:39:15.:39:21.

that becoming a graduate professional has reduced any

:39:21.:39:26.

quality. In fact, they have improved quality. There is no

:39:26.:39:30.

research behind what you're saying but there is to say many graduate

:39:30.:39:37.

Nursing has made a difference. get the same sort of letters that

:39:37.:39:43.

and gets on the subject. If you have not got compassion in nursing,

:39:43.:39:52.

you should not be there. If you do not have the compassion, do not go

:39:52.:40:02.
:40:02.:40:04.

there. Thank you. Now it is the political row which has got all of

:40:04.:40:09.

Asia talking. The new design for the Chinese passport shows a map

:40:09.:40:15.

with territories that are disputed And now the US say they will raise

:40:15.:40:18.

the issue with Beijing too. Who knew the humble passport could be

:40:18.:40:21.

so political? Adam has been finding out just how much. You cannot leave

:40:21.:40:26.

home or your home country without it. How much to the really notice

:40:26.:40:34.

our passports? It is a bit worrying. What do you think that passport

:40:34.:40:39.

says about South Africa as a country? Very little. Where are you

:40:39.:40:45.

from? I am from Belgium. What does the Belgian passport has in terms

:40:46.:40:53.

of design features? That is in Brussels. A Belgian monument.

:40:53.:41:00.

passport was issued in 2009. They were going through a third phase.

:41:00.:41:06.

Now they are filled with British Land marks instead. What does a

:41:06.:41:14.

Libyan passport look like? Just a green one. All the Libyans are

:41:14.:41:19.

waiting to change this passport. Few people care as much as

:41:19.:41:24.

immigration official turned author, Martin Lloyd, who has a collection

:41:24.:41:32.

of 400 of them. This was issued by France in 1820. It was issued to a

:41:32.:41:39.

Spanish refugee, who was applying for asylum in France. That is a

:41:39.:41:43.

description of the man, right down to the colour of his eyebrows, the

:41:43.:41:49.

shape of his chin and knows - everything. It is a British

:41:49.:41:54.

passport. A single sheet of paper bound in leather covers by the

:41:54.:42:03.

Passport agent. Passport number 13. It is signed in hand by the British

:42:03.:42:08.

Foreign Secretary - your palms stone - at the bottom. This is a

:42:08.:42:13.

Cypriot passport. -- Lord Palmerston. The people in the north

:42:13.:42:18.

of the island could only get a Turkish passport. They were issued

:42:18.:42:24.

with this. The Turkish Federated state of Cyprus. It is a travel

:42:24.:42:31.

document and not a passport. That is a very political passport.

:42:31.:42:35.

British pass was got political in the mid- 1980s when the old Blue

:42:35.:42:42.

gave way to EU Burgundy. -- passports. It caused consternation

:42:42.:42:46.

at the highest levels. Both Mrs Thatcher and Lord Carrington were

:42:47.:42:51.

doubtful about it a conscious of the sensitivities and

:42:51.:42:58.

misunderstandings that might make people think Britain had lost

:42:58.:43:03.

control. I do remember that when the passports were eventually

:43:03.:43:06.

issued, Jeffrey Howe when he was then Foreign Secretary, he insisted

:43:06.:43:13.

on having the first one. When you think about it, they really are

:43:13.:43:19.

lots of passports floating around the world. 47 million UK once, 37

:43:19.:43:23.

million Chinese ones and 130 million belonging to US citizens.

:43:23.:43:28.

You thought the most interesting thing about your passport was the

:43:28.:43:35.

photo. It is a fake! No it is not. Does it matter have a passport

:43:36.:43:42.

looks? They all look the same, don't they? Exactly. I used to love

:43:42.:43:49.

my old British passport. It was wonderful and elegant. We had to

:43:49.:43:54.

give it up for the paper one. point was it was not a British

:43:54.:44:01.

passport any more. It was a European Union passport. A retired

:44:01.:44:08.

Lithuanian KGB colonel has the same passport. There is no such thing as

:44:08.:44:11.

British citizenship or a British frontier and we have lost it.

:44:11.:44:21.

People should pay more attention. There is controversy in the air

:44:21.:44:27.

about Scottish independence. The latest row was in the Scotsman

:44:27.:44:31.

newspaper. It suggested an independent Scotland may have to

:44:31.:44:35.

reapply for EU membership. Let's see what the Scottish Secretary

:44:35.:44:44.

Has the British Government sought legal advice on Scotland's status?

:44:44.:44:48.

We've taken legal advice and we publish the fact we took it some

:44:48.:44:55.

weeks ago. We have an initial view that the most likely scenario is

:44:55.:44:59.

that the rest of the UK would continue as the member state,

:44:59.:45:03.

Scotland would have to apply and Scotland would have to negotiate

:45:03.:45:08.

its terms and conditions. That is a huge set of issues for us when we

:45:08.:45:13.

contemplate what is at stake for independence and for businesses in

:45:13.:45:18.

particular, at a time when three- quarters of businesses say they are

:45:18.:45:23.

very worried about independence. Are you saying for British

:45:23.:45:28.

Government has legal advice that if Scotland votes to leave the UK, it

:45:28.:45:32.

is in effect also leaving the European Union and would have to

:45:32.:45:37.

reapply as a new member? Is that the import of the legal advice you

:45:37.:45:43.

have? The advocate general, one of the UK Government's law officers,

:45:43.:45:48.

has made public speeches about this in the last few weeks. We are doing

:45:48.:45:52.

a lot of work on this, we've looked at the international precedents,

:45:52.:45:59.

we've looked at the weight of academic opinion and our initial

:45:59.:46:04.

views of that the most likely scenario is the UK stays as the

:46:04.:46:09.

member state and Scotland would have to apply to join the EU again.

:46:09.:46:14.

How quick and complex a process that is, nobody knows. But the

:46:14.:46:19.

terms and conditions, I think, are the key to this. The UK has a lot

:46:19.:46:26.

of Dr Putts on the euro and other things. Scotland has huge interests

:46:26.:46:30.

in six fishing and agriculture. None of that is certain and all of

:46:30.:46:34.

that is a worry. Forgive me for coming back to the original

:46:34.:46:40.

question. Your second dancer was a little different from the first. --

:46:40.:46:45.

answer. You said it looks as if Scotland would have to reapply. Can

:46:45.:46:51.

I clarified... Have you had divinity Atif British legal advice

:46:51.:46:58.

to that effect or not? Definitive. Can I make the distinction? The

:46:58.:47:02.

First Minister had some difficulty with this a month ago. We have

:47:02.:47:10.

answered a question that we have legal advice within government. On

:47:10.:47:15.

the basis of that, the Advocate- General, one of the law officers of

:47:15.:47:20.

the UK government, has been public set out what we draw from that. We

:47:20.:47:25.

don't comment on whether or not we have taken the advice itself, that

:47:25.:47:30.

his ministerial code that is well established, but people can see we

:47:30.:47:35.

are being clear that the most likely scenario, based on our

:47:35.:47:39.

initial research and consideration, is that the rest of the UK stays in

:47:39.:47:48.

vu you -- he used, Scotland would have to reapply to join the EU.

:47:48.:47:52.

will understand that the most likely scenario, which is your

:47:52.:47:57.

phrase, is very different from saying we've had definitive legal

:47:57.:48:00.

advice from the highest law officers in the land, the best

:48:00.:48:04.

advice this government can get, that Scotland will have to leave

:48:04.:48:08.

and reapply. I don't think you are telling me that this morning, are

:48:08.:48:13.

you? I am saying exactly the same as Jim Wallace has said in public,

:48:13.:48:17.

as I've said to the Scottish Parliament and other places. The

:48:17.:48:20.

distinction between what we are saying and what the Scottish

:48:20.:48:24.

government are saying is that they don't have legal advice and they

:48:24.:48:28.

have stopped all sorts of court proceedings a round that issue. We

:48:28.:48:33.

are looking at the balance of the probabilities. What is the expert

:48:33.:48:39.

opinion? What is the President? We think it is the most likely

:48:39.:48:44.

scenario. Very few people are doing anything different to that. If you

:48:44.:48:47.

are right on the balance of probabilities in Scotland, if it

:48:47.:48:53.

votes to leave the UK, then have to reapply to join the EU, is there

:48:53.:49:01.

any doubt... Surely the run EU would want Scotland to join. Plenty

:49:02.:49:06.

of people would rather see Scotland in and be glad to see the back of

:49:06.:49:12.

England! The point I would make is that it is a serious issue about

:49:12.:49:16.

Scotland's status at that moment, but much more significant will be

:49:17.:49:21.

the terms and conditions of that membership. There's no country that

:49:21.:49:25.

has joined since 2005 which has been able to escape the obligation

:49:26.:49:31.

to adopt the single currency. Likewise, the Shangla knocked out

:49:31.:49:35.

which we have around border controls is one that would have to

:49:35.:49:40.

be specially negotiated. None of that is clear from the way the SNP

:49:40.:49:44.

are putting for their argument, but it's absolutely critical to

:49:44.:49:48.

businesses, individuals and families. We have to get these

:49:48.:49:53.

things nailed down. The uncertainty of those terms and conditions is

:49:53.:49:57.

the big worry for people across the country. One quick question on an

:49:57.:50:04.

unrelated matter. Your role as a Privy Counsellor. The Telegraph

:50:04.:50:09.

newspaper reporting that as part of a system of regulation of the

:50:09.:50:13.

newspapers, David Cameron is considering setting up a new press

:50:13.:50:17.

watchdog by royal charter, which would mean the Privy Council would

:50:17.:50:24.

be involved. Can you confirm that? As you know, since Lord Leveson's

:50:24.:50:29.

report was published, the two parties in the coalition and

:50:29.:50:34.

opposition parties have all been considering their response to that.

:50:34.:50:37.

The specific proposals from each of the parties will be brought forward

:50:37.:50:41.

over the next few weeks and we will look forward to the debate that

:50:41.:50:46.

will ensue. His there discussion that would please the Lib Dems

:50:46.:50:52.

about regulation involving a royal charter? We have got a number of

:50:52.:50:55.

discussions going on between ourselves and the coalition

:50:55.:51:00.

partners. Discussions across Parliament as well. Discussions in

:51:00.:51:04.

Scotland, too. None of the detail is sorted out yet, none of the

:51:05.:51:08.

proposals have got to a point where they are agreed. In the next few

:51:08.:51:12.

weeks we will see that emerge and we will build up a proper debate

:51:12.:51:16.

about the right way forward. Her go inside and get warm! Thank you for

:51:16.:51:24.

joining us. By the man some gloves! And listening to that from our

:51:24.:51:26.

Edinburgh studio is Alyn Smith - he's a Scottish Nationalist Member

:51:26.:51:36.

of the European Parliament. We've always been told, and I've been

:51:36.:51:39.

personally told by Alex Salmond, that there's no question that if

:51:39.:51:44.

Scotland leaves the UK it remains part of the European Union. Without

:51:44.:51:50.

a hiccup. You can't say that any more, can you? Yes, we can. It is

:51:50.:51:54.

really important that we understand the significance of the Edinburgh

:51:54.:51:59.

agreement within this context. Where people... Michael Moore, I

:51:59.:52:02.

lost count of how many caveats he was sticking in to everything he

:52:02.:52:09.

was saying. We need to look at the reality can of how the EU operates.

:52:09.:52:14.

It is an expansionist organisation. This is unprecedented. There's no

:52:14.:52:23.

rule book. The same way we universe's -- reunification with

:52:23.:52:26.

East Germany was impossible, a way will be found. All of the certainty

:52:26.:52:33.

we have, our students are already part... I understand that. You want

:52:33.:52:39.

to stay in, I understand that, that is not the argument. Let me put

:52:39.:52:43.

what the EU Commission letter says. It says, if a territory of the

:52:43.:52:47.

member state ceases to be part of that member state, in other words

:52:47.:52:51.

Scotland if it voted to leave the UK, because it has become an

:52:51.:52:55.

independent state, the treaties would cease to apply to that

:52:55.:53:00.

territory. That is quite clear. You would have to reapply. There's a

:53:00.:53:04.

couple of points I will make. That letter doesn't actually exist and

:53:04.:53:09.

hasn't been signed off by the European Commission. We are seeing

:53:09.:53:13.

a black cops operation by the Scotsman which does it no credit. -

:53:13.:53:21.

- Black operations. The Edinburgh agreement makes very clear that for

:53:21.:53:25.

people of Scotland have a choice to make in 2014 which decides the

:53:25.:53:28.

principle whereupon there is a series of negotiations between

:53:28.:53:33.

Edinburgh and London and the European Commission has made it

:53:33.:53:38.

very clear, six months ago, that the commission will take due

:53:38.:53:42.

cognisance of a negotiated agreement between the two parts of

:53:42.:53:46.

the former UK. Are you claiming this letter doesn't exist and that

:53:46.:53:49.

the Scotsman made it? commission made that very clear

:53:49.:53:56.

yesterday. Are you saying... It has not been signed off. That is

:53:56.:54:00.

different. Are you claiming this letter doesn't exist and the

:54:00.:54:04.

Scotsman made it up? There has been no letter sent and how the Scotsman

:54:04.:54:09.

managed to see that letter. That is not what I've asked. Are you

:54:09.:54:14.

claiming this letter doesn't exist? I've made various calls to Brussels

:54:14.:54:17.

and I've been told of the letters exist in various parts, but it

:54:17.:54:22.

doesn't exist as a unified document. How the Scotsman managed to see

:54:22.:54:27.

various bits out of context is very curious. I think it is called

:54:27.:54:33.

original journalism and getting as good! May be imposed Leveson... You

:54:33.:54:37.

call it black operations, which is why a lot of newspapers don't want

:54:37.:54:43.

to be regulated by people like you. Isn't it perfectly possible, if the

:54:43.:54:46.

commission is right and the Secretary of State for Scotland is

:54:46.:54:50.

right, and I appreciate there were a lot of Pavia to what he said,

:54:50.:54:54.

that if you vote for independence, you'll have to negotiate with

:54:54.:54:58.

London the terms of the divorce and at the same time you will have to

:54:58.:55:02.

be negotiating with Brussels the terms of your re-entry as an

:55:02.:55:08.

independent nation into the EU? Firstly, the use of the word

:55:08.:55:12.

divorce is very emotionally-charged. We are negotiating a new status

:55:12.:55:17.

within the EU. Are we not allowed to use that word? You can if you

:55:17.:55:21.

like. But it is not like for like. We negotiate a new status from

:55:22.:55:25.

within, we are part of the EU presently. There's implications for

:55:25.:55:31.

both sides. Scotland will increase its MEP representation and the UK

:55:31.:55:36.

will lose some MEPs. We are talking about negotiation over the details

:55:36.:55:40.

and the housekeeping. The principle will be decided by the people of

:55:40.:55:44.

Scotland and then we have a period of negotiations where we saw that

:55:44.:55:48.

out. The EU aspects will be as nothing compared to the

:55:48.:55:52.

negotiations that will be happening between Edinburgh and London. The

:55:52.:55:57.

European Commission is based on law and human rights. It will take due

:55:57.:56:00.

copper dickens -- cognisance of the democratic opinion of the people of

:56:00.:56:04.

Scotland foot off thank you very much.

:56:04.:56:08.

Time now to see what else has been hitting the headlines in the last

:56:08.:56:17.

seven days - here's Giles with the In the wake of Leveson, Fleet

:56:17.:56:21.

Street's finest were called in to Number Ten to thrash out some House

:56:21.:56:29.

Rules in a sobering session in the last chance saloon. Meanwhile,

:56:29.:56:32.

Wills and Kate baby joy!!Is it twins?! Less happy news from a

:56:32.:56:35.

different palace - George Osborne told us that along with us, the

:56:35.:56:38.

royal nipper won't be able to rub two silver spoons together until

:56:38.:56:43.

2018. It's wonderfully news, they will make brilliant parents.

:56:43.:56:48.

Britain is heading in the right direction. The road is hard, but we

:56:48.:56:51.

are making progress. Goal gaping for Labour's star

:56:51.:56:56.

striker, but was the Balls in the back of the net? The national

:56:56.:57:05.

deficit is not rising... Is rising. It is not falling. Although there

:57:05.:57:08.

was some good news for the Treasury, when Starbucks says it would

:57:08.:57:11.

"coughee" up some more tax. And, talking of good news,

:57:11.:57:21.
:57:21.:57:27.

Do you think this Budget, and I will call it a budget, will start

:57:27.:57:32.

unravelling this weekend? It is already unravelling. We have the

:57:32.:57:35.

Daily Mail and the Daily Telegraph talking about the money tax,

:57:35.:57:41.

talking about how maternity pay will be cut in real terms. Then

:57:41.:57:46.

there rather big figures we were talking about with the IFS. How

:57:46.:57:52.

will they find �27 billion worth of cuts? We have 30 seconds. They

:57:52.:57:56.

always unravel. One trembles for freedom of the press in an

:57:56.:57:59.

independent Scotland after seeing what we just heard. That is the

:58:00.:58:07.

biggest lesson from this week's programme. Black Ops. The other

:58:07.:58:11.

change in Britain is I've never seen a government so far away from

:58:11.:58:17.

the next election not able to get any growth going before that

:58:17.:58:22.

election. They got it wrong. A lot of people have said that for a long

:58:22.:58:26.

time. It is one of the wonderful things about not being attached for

:58:26.:58:30.

of -- to a political party that has been clear to me since the

:58:30.:58:32.

beginning. That's all for today. Thanks to our

:58:32.:58:36.

guests - special thanks to Peter and Mary Ann. I'll be back on BBC

:58:36.:58:39.

One on Sunday with the Sunday Politics, when I'll be talking to

:58:39.:58:41.

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