10/12/2012 Daily Politics


10/12/2012

Andrew Neil with the latest political news, including Harriet Harman and immigration minister Mark Harper.


Similar Content

Browse content similar to 10/12/2012. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

Afternoon, folks, welcome to the Daily Politics. It is short, simple

:00:42.:00:46.

and men to make the newspapers behave better it. In the wake of

:00:46.:00:50.

the Leveson report, Labour is the first to publish a draft bill

:00:50.:00:54.

regulating the press. The party wants a panel of senior judges to

:00:54.:00:58.

oversee the new system of self- regulation and we will ask the

:00:58.:01:01.

Labour Deputy Leader Harriet Harman whether it will work.

:01:01.:01:05.

Let me pop this question - will gay marriage think the Tories? John

:01:05.:01:10.

Major is the latest to show support, reminding his party that we live in

:01:10.:01:14.

the 21st century. A group of MPs say ministers should

:01:14.:01:17.

consider ending criminal penalties for some people found with small

:01:17.:01:22.

quantities of drugs. And three cheers for the European

:01:22.:01:31.

Union, who today took hold of the Nobel Peace Prize - hurrah!

:01:31.:01:35.

All that in the next hour. With us for the duration, or at least half

:01:35.:01:42.

of it, a crossbench peer who likes the beer. Welcome to Karan

:01:42.:01:47.

Bilimoria. He is the founder and chairman of Cobra Beer. First this

:01:47.:01:51.

morning, let's talk about genetically modified food. The

:01:51.:01:55.

Environment Secretary, Owen Paterson, would like more of it.

:01:55.:02:00.

Ministers are preparing to relax controls on the cultivation of GM

:02:00.:02:04.

crops. In the Daily Telegraph, Mr Paterson said GM food should be

:02:04.:02:08.

grown and sold widely in Britain and consumer opposition to the

:02:08.:02:13.

technology was, quote, complete nonsense. Is he right? I have

:02:13.:02:18.

spoken about GM foods in Parliament. Agriculture in this country needs

:02:18.:02:23.

far more attention, the agriculture sector has gone down to barely over

:02:23.:02:28.

1% of our GDP, tiny. We need to encourage agriculture. In India,

:02:28.:02:33.

for example, I know how much during the green revolution that hybrid

:02:33.:02:38.

crops were used, which transformed Indian agriculture. It has lifted

:02:38.:02:43.

starving people out of poverty. In theory, GM food is a great idea,

:02:43.:02:48.

you can increase productivity, reduce fertiliser reduce, reduce

:02:48.:02:52.

the risk of infection. It should benefit humanity, held up with

:02:52.:02:57.

people from poverty. Are there no dangers? Of course they have shown

:02:57.:03:01.

to be dangers. One needs to look at it carefully. There is a lot of

:03:01.:03:05.

opposition in India because you have to look at very small holdings

:03:05.:03:10.

and the way it is implemented. But on a case-by-case basis here it is

:03:10.:03:14.

worthy of considering, rather than having a very blinkered attitude.

:03:14.:03:19.

It looks like, belatedly, we will go for it? There has been a lot of

:03:19.:03:22.

debate in years gone by, I think the Daily Mail called it

:03:22.:03:28.

Frankenstein food, but it looks like the opposition is losing out?

:03:28.:03:33.

We need to be practical. Science is advancing and if you can have

:03:33.:03:37.

science helping you to be more productive, that has to benefit in

:03:37.:03:41.

keeping costs down. We are going through horrible recessionary times,

:03:41.:03:48.

we must keep an open mind. Now time for away daily quiz. The

:03:48.:03:51.

Communities Secretary and MP for Brentwood and avant-garde, Eric

:03:51.:03:55.

Pickles, appeared on Desert Island Discs on Radio 4 yesterday. Guests

:03:55.:04:00.

can take one luxury item on to the island, what did he choose?

:04:00.:04:07.

Earl Grey tea, an organic pork pie, weekly bin collections or a boxed

:04:07.:04:12.

set of The Only Way is Essex? Shut At the end of the show, someone

:04:12.:04:16.

will tell us the right answer, I hope.

:04:16.:04:19.

When Brian Leveson published his 2000 page report into the future of

:04:19.:04:22.

press legislation, he said the ball was back in the Court of the

:04:23.:04:27.

politicians. What have they done since? The Conservative Party the

:04:27.:04:30.

Government is against a system of regulation which has to be backed

:04:30.:04:34.

by a new law. The Culture Department is drawing up a draft

:04:35.:04:38.

bill to show, they say, how complicated it would be.

:04:38.:04:42.

But Labour, which supports Leveson's call for a regulator

:04:42.:04:46.

backed by law, has come up with its own draft bill. Everyone seems to

:04:46.:04:51.

be doing it. Presumably to show how easy it can be done, the Labour

:04:51.:04:57.

version is a mere eight pages and six clauses long.

:04:57.:04:59.

They envisage a new regulator called the Press Standards Trust

:04:59.:05:02.

with the power to investigate complaints and false papers to

:05:02.:05:07.

print apologies or face big fines. Every national newspaper and

:05:07.:05:10.

magazine with a substantial UK circulation would be expected to

:05:10.:05:14.

join, but purely online organisation such as blogs would

:05:14.:05:18.

not have to. The Labour plans would see the Lord Chief Justice

:05:18.:05:22.

appointed to oversee the new trust, along with a panel of other judges

:05:22.:05:27.

who decide once every few years if it is up to scratch. The Bill would

:05:27.:05:30.

order ministers and anyone in public office to uphold the freedom

:05:30.:05:35.

of the press. Ed Miliband is said to have spoken to Nick Clegg about

:05:35.:05:38.

the proposals, which are said to have gone down well with the

:05:38.:05:42.

Liberal Democrats. That could add to pressure on David Cameron of the

:05:42.:05:46.

cross-party talks later this week. Labour's Harriet Harman has worked

:05:47.:05:53.

on the draft Bill and joins me now. Welcome. What is there in the

:05:53.:05:56.

behaviour of judges in this country which would make you think that the

:05:56.:06:01.

freedom of the press would be safe in my hands? What our Bill does is

:06:01.:06:05.

it actually enacts a central principle that Leveson put forward,

:06:05.:06:10.

which is the press need to redo their press complaints system so it

:06:10.:06:14.

is independent and effective, but there needs to be some legal

:06:14.:06:18.

guarantee, some guarantee in law that they will not just slip back.

:06:18.:06:23.

Previously they have said we will sort things out and improve the

:06:23.:06:27.

system and after a few years they have slipped back. This Bill is

:06:27.:06:31.

simply sets up a system which recognises and gives the

:06:31.:06:36.

responsibility to the Lord Chief Justice. Let me come back to my

:06:36.:06:39.

question, what is it in the behaviour of British judges in

:06:39.:06:43.

modern times which makes you think that freedom of the press is safer

:06:43.:06:49.

now hands? They will apply the law. And the law we have set out says

:06:49.:06:54.

there has to be a guarantee of press freedom but also says that if

:06:54.:07:00.

a body which has been set up by the press themselves but is actually

:07:00.:07:03.

independents and operating according to the criteria Leveson

:07:03.:07:08.

set out, you simply verify it, you go away and carry on with your day

:07:08.:07:11.

job of being Lord Chief Justice, in three years' time you look again

:07:12.:07:15.

and say, are they still doing what they promised they would do? If

:07:15.:07:20.

they have you tick the box and go away again. It is a legal guarantee

:07:20.:07:25.

that you don't have what she always had Doba last 70 years, good

:07:25.:07:30.

intentions and then things slipping. -- what you always had over the

:07:30.:07:34.

last 70 years. The British judiciary has been responsible for

:07:34.:07:40.

some of the most anti- believe -- anti- free press behaviour is in

:07:40.:07:44.

the modern world, such as thalidomide and Spycatcher, which

:07:44.:07:51.

they tried to stop it being -- to stop being published. They would

:07:52.:07:55.

not be dealing with any complaints about the press, that is not what

:07:55.:08:00.

they would be doing. But they would monitor the body that is. They

:08:00.:08:06.

would not. They would report every two or three years. At the outset

:08:06.:08:09.

they would look up the criteria laid down by Leveson like whether

:08:09.:08:13.

the body is independent and includes the newspapers, they would

:08:13.:08:16.

then say it has ticked the box and they would get on and deal with the

:08:16.:08:21.

press. The Lord Chief Justice would be no where near content or any of

:08:21.:08:25.

those other issues. I have read your bill, it is interesting, more

:08:25.:08:32.

readable than most, although that may be a weakness of it. But under

:08:32.:08:38.

the Bill the Lord Chief Justice and other judges would monitor, reports

:08:38.:08:44.

on how this body of regulators is performing with the power to make

:08:44.:08:51.

regulations, suggest changes and enforce them if need be? In the six

:08:51.:08:54.

clauses and The One Show Gil, it says at the outset it would verify

:08:54.:09:02.

the system and then look at it. If you had a system which was set up

:09:02.:09:05.

and after a year the press decided to close the whole thing down, I

:09:05.:09:09.

don't think they would, but supposing they did, we have a

:09:09.:09:14.

clause which says if it breaks down between the three years, then the

:09:14.:09:17.

Lord Chief Justice can say the system is broken-down and therefore

:09:17.:09:22.

it is no longer verified. I would like you to recognise and accept

:09:22.:09:28.

that this takes the courts nowhere near what is written in the papers.

:09:28.:09:31.

Parliament is nowhere near what is written in the papers, the

:09:31.:09:35.

Government is nowhere near. The press would set up their own system

:09:35.:09:39.

to deal with complaints, we would just tick the box. It is operating

:09:39.:09:45.

in the way they say it will operate. But the judges would still be the

:09:45.:09:50.

Verify and they would report on the performance of this body. They

:09:50.:09:55.

would not report on the performance, they would simply say, is the body

:09:55.:09:59.

matching the criteria laid out? They would not have it up and say,

:09:59.:10:03.

we are not happy with how you dealt with this complaint, we think you

:10:03.:10:08.

should have dealt differently, they will simply look at whether or not

:10:08.:10:11.

it is structurally and organisationally what the press

:10:11.:10:15.

themselves say they are doing. next Lord Chief Justice could be

:10:15.:10:20.

Brian Leveson. Are you happy he would be the one regulating the

:10:20.:10:23.

press? Whoever is Lord Chief Justice will have the

:10:23.:10:29.

responsibility of applying the law according to the statute. This is a

:10:29.:10:34.

very simple and straightforward task. It must worry you that Brian

:10:34.:10:37.

Leveson could be the Lord Chief Justice, the man that you would put

:10:37.:10:43.

in power as the ultimate arbitrator of press regulation? All the

:10:43.:10:46.

experience of working journalists, I don't know if you speak to them

:10:46.:10:51.

Walmart, they don't think judges understand the media or not. It's a

:10:51.:10:54.

Claude Leveson six months to work out that journalists do not write

:10:54.:10:58.

their own headlines, and yet she want to give these people with no

:10:58.:11:03.

expertise at all the ultimate ride on regulating the press? We don't.

:11:03.:11:06.

And the criteria that Leveson has laid down for highways system

:11:06.:11:12.

should work, and independence of regulatory system, they have been

:11:12.:11:20.

agreed by the newspapers, they have said they are good criteria and we

:11:20.:11:25.

will accept the principles. All we are doing is ensuring them having

:11:25.:11:28.

accepted those principles and setting up a body which complies

:11:28.:11:34.

with those principles, we have it verified and also in three years'

:11:34.:11:37.

time we have a sense that the press know that they have to keep doing

:11:37.:11:42.

what they're doing and not slip back. I have got your own copy of

:11:42.:11:47.

the bill for you to read. I have read it, but why don't you sign it

:11:47.:11:53.

for me? Why did you give up on Ofcom? Mr

:11:53.:11:57.

Miliband first said he wanted Ofcom to do this, not the Lord Chief

:11:57.:12:02.

Justice. This recognising body should be Ofcom, but if people did

:12:02.:12:05.

not want that they could have an alternative. Ed Miliband said you

:12:05.:12:10.

would go with Ofcom. Leveson said we should have of combative people

:12:10.:12:14.

did not wanted there could be an alternative. Ed Miliband said we

:12:14.:12:19.

would go with Leveson to have Ofcom, but in the debate last Monday and

:12:19.:12:24.

number of MPs, including, importantly, the Deputy Prime

:12:25.:12:30.

Minister... Mr Clegg, I think his name is. He said he was not happy

:12:30.:12:35.

with Ofcom. Ofcom is not a central tenet, it is a question of who will

:12:35.:12:39.

do the role. We have come forward with something we think will

:12:39.:12:43.

reassure people of the independence. And you hope for wider support by

:12:43.:12:50.

doing it this way. Off, is a direct regulator, that is the worry. -- of,

:12:50.:12:55.

is a direct regulator of. If you give back an observing role to

:12:55.:13:00.

somebody whose day-job is the regulator, they might start getting

:13:00.:13:05.

directly regulatory. But Leveson said you could pick. You have

:13:05.:13:10.

changed your mind, I understand. have not, we listen to Parliament...

:13:10.:13:14.

And change your mind, Miliband said you would go with off, and you have

:13:14.:13:23.

not, you have changed your mind, fact. You want compromise, stop

:13:24.:13:29.

arguing with me, I am agreeing with you. You're doing quite well as

:13:29.:13:34.

arguing with me. What is the logic of saying the

:13:34.:13:38.

online website of the New Statesman should come within this regulation,

:13:38.:13:43.

which has no great influence on Westminster, but probably one of

:13:43.:13:50.

the most influential sites, credo Fawkes, should not? Faulks is

:13:50.:13:55.

offshore, offshore activities, of the situation of the law deals with

:13:55.:14:00.

them differently. But they could join voluntarily. If they did and

:14:00.:14:05.

they got done for libel, they would be able to say we are in the body,

:14:05.:14:10.

please make our damages accordingly and don't sting us with costs.

:14:10.:14:14.

though Guido Fawkes is not covered if he does not volunteer to join it,

:14:14.:14:19.

he could get costs in any libel case? There are sticks and carrots,

:14:19.:14:26.

you can get costs reduced if you join his body, because you have

:14:26.:14:30.

shown good endeavour, it is a mitigating factor. If you don't,

:14:30.:14:34.

and you are found guilty of libel, you get it in the neck. This will

:14:35.:14:39.

come before the Lords. If it ever becomes a bill in parliament, how

:14:39.:14:49.

There is a feeling that things have gone too far T majority of the

:14:49.:14:56.

Leveson report has got people agreeing with it. Having judges and

:14:56.:15:01.

I have the greatest respect for British courts. Worldwide we have

:15:01.:15:06.

the fairest courts in the world. Anything to do with judges, courts,

:15:06.:15:10.

supervising the press, alarm bells ring. The free press is a

:15:10.:15:14.

cornerstone of this country. I know the intentions are good, but you

:15:14.:15:19.

have to have an independent regulator. We know the Press

:15:19.:15:21.

Complaints Commission has not worked. We need something which

:15:21.:15:26.

will. The report is very good in that sense. We have to stay away

:15:26.:15:32.

from any form of statutory control of the press. That will destroy and

:15:32.:15:37.

the perception sent abroad - we must remember that, not just here.

:15:37.:15:41.

How do you stop what has happened over the past 70 years, the press

:15:41.:15:44.

changing, getting their house in order and then slipping back. As

:15:44.:15:49.

far as abroad is concerned that is a red hearing. The Irish have their

:15:49.:15:55.

system and they are human rights come President Clinton. Ironically,

:15:55.:16:02.

the biggest -- they are right rights compliant.

:16:02.:16:07.

That is one stop. That is what has been shown to happen.

:16:07.:16:11.

I think we have learnt some serious lessons. What you have said has

:16:11.:16:14.

been said over and over again. This time we have to make sure we don't

:16:14.:16:18.

slip back. It is not fair on people like the McCanns and the Dowlers

:16:18.:16:23.

that should happen to families. Speaking of... Don't leave us,

:16:23.:16:27.

because we are speaking about lives being wrecked by some things the

:16:27.:16:33.

media do. From the British press, let's move to the Australian media.

:16:33.:16:39.

The two presenters who made that hoax call say they are heart broken

:16:39.:16:44.

by the death of the nurse caught newspaper the prank. Her name was

:16:44.:16:49.

Jacintha Saldanha. She was found dead three days after put through

:16:49.:16:54.

that call. This is what the presenters had to say earlier today.

:16:54.:16:58.

Unfortunately I remember that moment very well, because I haven't

:16:58.:17:01.

stopped thinking about it since it happened. I remember my first

:17:01.:17:11.
:17:11.:17:11.

question was, was she a mother. When you found out she was what did

:17:11.:17:18.

you think? Very sad for the family. I cannot imagine what they are

:17:18.:17:21.

going through. What about you? Gutted. You know.

:17:21.:17:27.

Shattered. Heart-broken.

:17:27.:17:34.

Does it even feel real to you what has happened? We're still trying to

:17:34.:17:40.

get our heads around everything, trying to make sense of the

:17:40.:17:44.

situation. It doesn't seem real because you could not foresee

:17:44.:17:48.

something happening like that from a prank call. It was never nopbt go

:17:48.:17:55.

that far. It was meant to be a -- never meant to go that far. It

:17:55.:18:01.

meant to be a prank. This wasn't supposed to happen. If it was a

:18:01.:18:05.

British tabloid responsible, in the post Leveson atmosphere there would

:18:05.:18:10.

be a lynch mob, wouldn't there? think everybody right now is

:18:10.:18:14.

sympathetic and heart-broken for the family and there will be an

:18:14.:18:20.

inquest, but I think it's just a real tragedy. I think the idea of

:18:20.:18:25.

trying to judge what has happened on this against this bill we've put

:18:25.:18:30.

forward, I mean I just.... I think it is relevant. If this were to

:18:30.:18:35.

become law, there would be a body of law which is the basis of press

:18:35.:18:39.

regulation. If you got something like that, God forbid, done by a

:18:39.:18:43.

British newspaper, there would be a huge outcry in Parliament, you

:18:43.:18:49.

probably leading it to toughen up things so this could not happen?

:18:49.:18:56.

All there would be is a stamp - an authorisation of what the press

:18:56.:19:01.

themselves are doing by the way of Press Complaints Commission. They

:19:01.:19:05.

are reconstituting that now. What do you think? What happens here is

:19:05.:19:11.

awful. On one hand, you would say pranks - people have always pulled

:19:11.:19:17.

pranks, they will always happen. In this instance you are talking about

:19:17.:19:20.

people playing a prank on a hospital, dealing with people

:19:21.:19:24.

caring for people's lives. You are trying to get private, sensitive

:19:25.:19:28.

information, let alone, it happens to be a member of the Royal Family.

:19:28.:19:32.

That is wrong, for somebody to think of playing a prank like that

:19:32.:19:36.

- it's completely wrong. They are regretting what they've done. They

:19:36.:19:39.

have no... They were not thinking of what they were doing. Well, it

:19:40.:19:44.

is very serious. You don't do that with a hospital.

:19:44.:19:52.

Will you sign this for me? Indeed! With a kiss? I am hoping to even

:19:52.:19:57.

persuade you it might be a bit of a tall order. I have no views on the

:19:57.:20:01.

matter. I am in favour of press freedom, like you are. I would not

:20:01.:20:05.

dream of doing anything I felt harmed the press. I am in favour of

:20:05.:20:09.

individuals to lead their lives without harassment. That is what

:20:09.:20:17.

has been suggested we do. David Cameron is in favour of gay

:20:17.:20:20.

marriage. So are many prominent figures, not everyone in the party

:20:20.:20:28.

Adam is on the green. You are totally right. It is fair to say

:20:28.:20:33.

this divided Conservatives to strong views. Let's hear some of

:20:33.:20:38.

the views. We have Tim Montgomery from Conservative home and Peter

:20:38.:20:43.

Bone. You are in favour of same-sex marriage, so too is John Major, he

:20:43.:20:48.

issued a statement in favour. Why is that a significant moment?

:20:48.:20:53.

is important for the Conservative Party to demonstrate is civility. I

:20:53.:20:59.

respect Peter's view. I hope he respects mine. What I hope we'll

:20:59.:21:05.

get to in a position and this is what the Freedom to Marry group is

:21:05.:21:10.

hoping for - a number of others leading, the right for gay people

:21:10.:21:14.

to be part of the important institution of marriage but

:21:14.:21:18.

important liberty to protect it as well. We must not force anybody in

:21:18.:21:21.

the churches or mosques or synagogues to support something

:21:21.:21:26.

that is against their consciences. Is it is a civil debate? It seems

:21:26.:21:30.

like it is getting bad tempered? didn't start off very well. The

:21:30.:21:35.

letter Tim was associated with implied that most people who didn't

:21:35.:21:39.

support their view were homophobic. That is a really bad way. It was

:21:39.:21:44.

badly written. If that is not what it meant, please say. When I hear

:21:44.:21:48.

other Conservative MPs picking on other Conservative MPs over this

:21:48.:21:52.

issue, that is not the way to have this. It's not just the

:21:52.:21:57.

Conservative Party who is divided over it - of course the country is

:21:57.:22:01.

divided. It is not just political parties, people of different

:22:01.:22:04.

political views. I believe marriage is between a man and a woman. I

:22:04.:22:08.

have that right to believe that. Tim takes a different view. What I

:22:08.:22:13.

object to is this being forced on Parliament now when there's no

:22:13.:22:18.

mandate from any political party, not in any manifesto for this to

:22:18.:22:21.

happen. Yes, so Tim where is this coming from? It was not in

:22:21.:22:28.

manifestos, as Peter Bone says - the evidence from the public is

:22:28.:22:32.

mixed? I don't think it is mixed. There is a large minority who

:22:32.:22:37.

oppose this form. Every opinion poll has found a large majority of

:22:37.:22:42.

people in favour of this reform, particularly amongst young people,

:22:42.:22:44.

and even amongst most religious people as well, I think there is

:22:44.:22:48.

support for this. One of the first speeches David Cameron gave as

:22:48.:22:51.

leader of the Conservative Party was, he said he wanted to see

:22:51.:22:55.

marriage between a man and a man, a woman and a woman and a man and a

:22:55.:22:59.

woman as well. He wanted full equality before the law. I think

:22:59.:23:03.

that's the right position for the Conservative Party, for the nation,

:23:03.:23:09.

to address. Completely, contrary to what Peter has said, I don't regard

:23:09.:23:18.

him as homophobic. Why did that letter say it? You read it.

:23:18.:23:23.

Nick Clegg spoke very badly in that press release that he withdraw. I

:23:23.:23:26.

don't regard people who have sincere, perhaps religious views,

:23:26.:23:31.

who hold the view that Peter does as anything other than sincere.

:23:31.:23:35.

People who are homophobic I think are a small minority. I don't want

:23:35.:23:42.

to swap one form of intoll rapbls for a new form of inkol --

:23:42.:23:47.

intolerance, for a new form of intolerance.

:23:47.:23:50.

Mutual tolerance and support for equal rights. Also, isn't the

:23:50.:23:55.

problem with this issue, it's not like a lot of issues where there

:23:55.:24:05.

can be a nice fudge, people are broadly happy with. There is no

:24:05.:24:08.

compromise We should argue on the issue. Maybe something we can agree

:24:08.:24:13.

on is there cannot be a goorn tee that churches will not be forced to

:24:13.:24:17.

have same-sex marriage. When the European Court of Human Rights gets

:24:17.:24:22.

involved, who knows where it will go! A few weeks ago we said there

:24:22.:24:30.

would be no church same-sex wedding. There's not a cast-iron guarantee.

:24:30.:24:33.

Tim knows the European Court has its own way of getting involved in

:24:33.:24:37.

these things. Let's look way into the distance. Imagine this

:24:37.:24:41.

legislation is passed or swished in the House of Commons and the Lords,

:24:41.:24:43.

where would this leave the Conservative Party once it happens

:24:43.:24:48.

or doesn't happen? I think what is true is we look at issues like

:24:48.:24:54.

Section 28 from ten years ago or civil partnerships from five years

:24:54.:24:57.

ago. These were issues of huge controversy at the time. Almost as

:24:57.:25:02.

soon as they are passed they are accepted by the nation. I don't

:25:02.:25:05.

know Peter's view on civil partnerships. I support them. There

:25:05.:25:10.

you go. Did you at the time? That's a very nice, easy thing to say,

:25:10.:25:14.

isn't it? When you are trying to change an institution which has

:25:14.:25:19.

been there for hundreds of years - this is where you will see from

:25:19.:25:23.

Conservative home the number of grass root Torys who are opposed to

:25:23.:25:27.

this change F we do it, put it in a manifesto, have a general election.

:25:27.:25:31.

Let people decide whether they want to vote for that MP, not bring it

:25:31.:25:35.

forward now. I hope you'll agree with me, this is an own-goal in

:25:35.:25:40.

terms of the Conservative Party. It damages us. What happens if it gets

:25:40.:25:47.

past in 18 months - would you leave the Conservative Party? I do have a

:25:47.:25:50.

calling that is higher than the Conservative Party - that's God, of

:25:50.:25:54.

course. We have strong arguments... What I don't want. It is not what

:25:54.:25:58.

the letter in the Telegraph said. We must have a civilised debate. I

:25:58.:26:02.

would hope the people who wrote that letter will apologise for it.

:26:02.:26:09.

I think you are being too pressure about that. -- precious about that.

:26:09.:26:16.

I I think millions were offended by it. I am sure not. Take steps that

:26:16.:26:20.

way. Carry on discussing it and we'll go back to the studio where

:26:20.:26:27.

we will talk about controversial issues. We'll hear more later in

:26:27.:26:31.

the week when Maria Miller will be in the Commons to update MPs on

:26:31.:26:36.

what MPs want to do with this issue. Where are you on this? I led a

:26:36.:26:40.

debate earlier this year on the contribution of the ethnic and

:26:40.:26:44.

religious minoritys to this country. It is fantastic that we have such

:26:44.:26:50.

an open country, a secular country, multicultural, where we don't just

:26:50.:26:55.

tolerate all religions, we celebrate all religions. We've had

:26:55.:26:59.

civil partnerships. If this is to go ahead, so long as it is not

:26:59.:27:04.

forced on any religious body to implement it. The fear is once it -

:27:04.:27:08.

although that's not the intention - the critics say once this becomes

:27:08.:27:14.

law, there will be huge pressure on the churches, even maybe legal

:27:14.:27:18.

pressure to conform. No, I they are making it very clear. Of course the

:27:18.:27:22.

step by step approach would be a first for civil partnerships to be

:27:22.:27:26.

recognised as marriages. Then to get to this stage and now it's

:27:26.:27:29.

going straight to marriages. you happy with that, or not?

:27:29.:27:34.

think, on the whole, people seem to want to move on in that direction.

:27:34.:27:39.

My biggest fear is it should not be forced on the religions. That is

:27:39.:27:44.

wrong, we should not do that. out thevy lins and spare a thought

:27:45.:27:50.

for poor MPs who are - well sometimes they cannot win. Take

:27:50.:27:55.

immigration. The Government wants to bring net migration below the

:27:55.:28:01.

100,000 mark by 2015. They are 80,000 off target. Ministers want

:28:01.:28:05.

to grow the high tech businesses which often rely on, you have got

:28:05.:28:09.

it, skilled foreign workers from outside the EU, who will be hit by

:28:09.:28:12.

the immigration cap. That means they are getting it in the neck

:28:12.:28:19.

from, well, just about everybody. In America, they have Silicon

:28:19.:28:23.

Valley, a sizable chunk of California poplised by industries

:28:23.:28:28.

of 21st century and beyond. We are British. We have silicon roundabout.

:28:28.:28:35.

One day, all of this will be high tech startups, run by trendy

:28:35.:28:38.

entrepreneurs, the Government insist will revitalise the economy.

:28:38.:28:43.

That is why politicians love to hang here. The cool kids say,

:28:43.:28:47.

thanks in a large part to the Government's immigration policies,

:28:47.:28:51.

they cannot get the staff. Their beef is with the cap. Ministers

:28:51.:28:56.

want to bring net inward migration below 100,000 by 2015. It is

:28:56.:29:00.

currently at 180,000. They cannot do much about people there the EU,

:29:00.:29:04.

but they can deal with those from outside it. Only people with

:29:04.:29:08.

exceptional skills, investors and entrepreneurs are being welcomed.

:29:08.:29:12.

Students face tougher language tests, are allowed to stay for less

:29:12.:29:16.

time and need a sponsoring employer. That gives the new breed of

:29:16.:29:20.

businesses around these parts a headache. The high tech companies

:29:20.:29:27.

on Silicon Roundabout are affected. We thrive on having really skilled

:29:27.:29:34.

workers and are ability to expand and provide new jobs in this area

:29:34.:29:37.

is affected by getting the skilled workers. We would love to have as

:29:37.:29:43.

many British coming in. But if we are going to grow Silicon

:29:43.:29:46.

Roundabout into something which is world-beating and has a major

:29:46.:29:49.

effect on the economy, we need to bring in the best and the brightest

:29:49.:29:53.

from around the world. You don't have to support the Government to

:29:53.:29:58.

disagree with Dan. So far as employers are concerned it is self-

:29:58.:30:05.

serving. It is the easy way out. Instead of resources for young

:30:05.:30:10.

people - don't forget 20% of graduates cannot get jobs. Instead

:30:10.:30:15.

of taking on graduates, the easy option is to get somebody from

:30:15.:30:20.

abroad. Of course they use the argument, this strives economic

:30:20.:30:26.

growth. It adds minutely overall to GDP. So far as per capita GPD, that

:30:26.:30:31.

is the wealth of the individuals in the country, it doesn't add at all.

:30:31.:30:33.

Equally, being a Conservative doesn't mean you have to think what

:30:33.:30:43.
:30:43.:30:45.

The trouble is that I do not think the policy is in the economic

:30:45.:30:48.

interests of the country and I don't think we will be able to

:30:48.:30:52.

reduce immigration from its current level of 182,000 to under 100 birds

:30:52.:30:58.

and, which is what we have promised. Which leads people like Dan feeling

:30:58.:31:03.

dazed and confused. On the one hand we are promoting

:31:03.:31:06.

Silicon Roundabout and we are able to find great people to come in as

:31:06.:31:09.

a result of that, but on the other hand the Government is saying that

:31:09.:31:15.

we don't want immigrants. This is not what the UK once, the UK is not

:31:15.:31:21.

open for business. You can't have those two messages at once.

:31:21.:31:25.

immigration debate is as much about politics and people as it is about

:31:25.:31:29.

the numbers, which makes keeping everyone happy very hard indeed.

:31:29.:31:33.

We are joined by the Immigration Minister Mark Harper, welcomed. Is

:31:33.:31:39.

there not a danger that your immigration strategy is now

:31:39.:31:43.

undermining your growth strategy? don't think so. I fundamentally

:31:43.:31:46.

don't understand and that clip why the gentleman was saying he had

:31:46.:31:50.

heard people say Britain was closed for business. Ministers have said

:31:50.:31:54.

nothing of the sort. Our policies are about having fewer people

:31:54.:31:58.

overall but being more selective and making sure we have skilled

:31:58.:32:02.

workers. If you look at the figures published on the 29th of November,

:32:02.:32:06.

we have fewer people coming in of all but more skilled workers. We

:32:06.:32:10.

have fewer students but more students coming to an excellent

:32:10.:32:14.

British universities, Britain is very much open for business. Why do

:32:14.:32:20.

you have a cap on 1000 visas for the exceptionally talented? That is

:32:20.:32:24.

a new stream we have opened up, we have not reached 1000 yet. A number

:32:25.:32:29.

of the things we have opened, we have developed. Why would you

:32:29.:32:33.

cabbage? Don't we want exceptionally talented people? Why

:32:33.:32:38.

would you put a cap on exceptional talent? We opened a new stream to

:32:38.:32:41.

have people coming in under that route, people who were extremely

:32:41.:32:47.

talented, and also routes for entrepreneurs and investors. We

:32:47.:32:51.

want people to come here, start businesses and be successful, that

:32:51.:32:56.

is the strategy we have outlined and it is working. When that

:32:56.:33:00.

gentleman said he could not hire skilled workers, the cap we have is

:33:00.:33:05.

nowhere near being reached. I just don't think it is true. If you

:33:05.:33:09.

can't hire them it is not because of the cap? If he wants to bring

:33:09.:33:14.

skilled workers from outside the EU, there should not be a problem.

:33:14.:33:20.

are a businessman, you deal with this, what is your view?

:33:20.:33:25.

reality is the perception of what is being said. This country has

:33:25.:33:31.

been built on good immigration. The previous government lost control of

:33:31.:33:34.

immigration and if you asked the UK Border Agency right now how many

:33:34.:33:37.

illegal immigrants that are, they cannot even give you a figure

:33:37.:33:42.

rounded up to 100,000, they have no clue. We have lost control of our

:33:42.:33:47.

borders, we have not introduced exit controls so we don't even know

:33:47.:33:51.

who is sleeping. Then there is a big difference between bad and good

:33:51.:33:55.

immigration. There are 60 million people on a small island, we can't

:33:55.:33:59.

have everyone coming in. It is an attractive place to come, one of

:34:00.:34:04.

the top 10 economies in the world, but we need to get control and keep

:34:04.:34:09.

away the bad immigration. What about the cap?

:34:09.:34:15.

ALL TALK AT ONCE. It is the way that you did it. If

:34:15.:34:18.

you want to get bad. -- rid of the bad immigration, the dodgy colleges

:34:18.:34:24.

and students, everybody would agree. But if you have a blunt, crude

:34:24.:34:29.

immigration cap, you send out the message of a broad brush carpet-

:34:29.:34:35.

bombing everyone. I sits on the boards of schools and we have seen

:34:35.:34:38.

applications of students from India plummet, because the message being

:34:38.:34:45.

sent out is that British universities do not want us. The

:34:45.:34:47.

London Metropolitan University, overnight the Borders Agency said

:34:47.:34:54.

you have to get rid of 2500 to 3000 foreign students you have now, that

:34:54.:35:02.

is a police state type action. Most of those students did nothing wrong.

:35:02.:35:07.

It is not just the Duchy College is you are closing down, people coming

:35:07.:35:11.

for dodgy degrees, it is affecting people who should be coming to our

:35:11.:35:16.

top business schools? The overall number of students coming to allow

:35:16.:35:20.

universities was up last year. that the case? The figures I have

:35:20.:35:26.

here was that in the it year to 20th September 12 there were

:35:26.:35:33.

210,921 visas issued for study. That is it for up 26%. The number

:35:34.:35:38.

of students coming to the UK is down, the number of students coming

:35:38.:35:42.

to our universities is up. We have tackled the institutions which were

:35:42.:35:49.

not selling education, they were selling... The number of

:35:49.:35:54.

applications for visas to come to universities is also up. The

:35:54.:35:58.

university sector is being protected. It is the sector where,

:35:58.:36:03.

as Karen said, there was abuse, we are weeding out the abuse. We have

:36:03.:36:09.

far fewer colleges. This fall of 26%, a quarter, is it all down to

:36:10.:36:17.

the closure of the dodgy language schools and the false degrees?

:36:17.:36:21.

because the number of students coming to universities is up. The

:36:21.:36:25.

high quality end of the sector, the best and brightest, to use your

:36:25.:36:31.

language, is going up. Britain is very much open for business. That

:36:31.:36:35.

is what ministers are saying. want to bring you back, we are not

:36:35.:36:40.

just talking about students but we are talking about visas for very

:36:41.:36:44.

talented people. The minister says we are way below the cap, is there

:36:44.:36:49.

any evidence that British companies cannot hire the best and brightest

:36:49.:36:54.

from abroad because of what the Government has done? Yesterday I

:36:54.:36:57.

was at the annual awards of the Bangladesh Caterers Association,

:36:58.:37:03.

the leading restaurant body. That employs over 100,000 people, it is

:37:03.:37:08.

part of our way of life. They cannot recruit staff from a board,

:37:08.:37:14.

in particular, shirts. I know that curry colleges were being set up,

:37:14.:37:17.

including the University of West London, where I was Chancellor, but

:37:17.:37:22.

those things take time to implement. In the meantime, restaurants are

:37:22.:37:26.

suffering, consumers are squeezed, they are trying to survive...

:37:26.:37:31.

have made no apologies for saying you can't bring in people from

:37:31.:37:35.

outside the UK will unskilled and low-skilled. These are skilled

:37:35.:37:41.

people. The migrations... Migration Advisory Committee set up

:37:41.:37:46.

the skills we want people to have. But the industry is saying we are

:37:46.:37:50.

not getting the skills. They listen to people, they don't just sit in

:37:50.:37:55.

Whitehall, they take evidence and listen. Come here if you are

:37:55.:37:59.

skilled, but we are not importing unskilled labour into the labour

:37:59.:38:05.

market. An unrelated matter, related to immigration but not what

:38:06.:38:10.

we're talking about, Romanians and Bulgarians, by the end of next year

:38:10.:38:14.

the transitional restrictions come after and Romanian some Bulgarians

:38:14.:38:20.

will have totally free access to this country the way the Polish had

:38:20.:38:25.

to 10 years or so ago? That's right. And we are not the only country

:38:25.:38:32.

removing transitional controls. you accept that this report by

:38:32.:38:38.

Migrationwatch, it could lead to up to 425,000? That is speculation.

:38:38.:38:43.

When I was asked in the Commons about the forecast, I said it is

:38:43.:38:46.

much better to say it is very difficult to forecast these numbers.

:38:46.:38:51.

I think you alluded to the previous government... They got it totally

:38:51.:38:55.

wrong. But there are a number of European countries with

:38:55.:38:59.

restrictions, they will be releasing them as well. It is a

:38:59.:39:08.

very difficult job. No forecasts? No. Straight answer. Thank you both

:39:08.:39:13.

very much. Goodbye. Now let's look at what will be

:39:13.:39:17.

making the news next -- this week. Today sees the publication of the

:39:17.:39:20.

Home Affairs Select Committee report on drugs, which has made 48

:39:20.:39:25.

recommendations, including, controversially, urging the

:39:25.:39:28.

Government to consider a system of drug decriminalisation pioneered in

:39:28.:39:33.

Portugal. On Tuesday, there is the

:39:33.:39:36.

Communications Bill. The Lib Dems may yet withdraw support for more

:39:36.:39:38.

police powers to monitor communications.

:39:38.:39:42.

Get you glad rags on tomorrow night, the Chancellor is hosting his

:39:42.:39:46.

annual Christmas drinks. Let's hope he can extend a little more

:39:46.:39:49.

Christmas cheer than his Autumn Statement.

:39:49.:39:54.

On Wednesday it is the penultimate PMQs of the year. For some of you,

:39:54.:39:57.

that means second blast. The parties go head-to-head on

:39:57.:40:02.

Leveson on Thursday. More cross- party talks, I wish -- I bet you

:40:03.:40:07.

can't wait. Statutory underpinning or not?

:40:07.:40:10.

We are joined from outside Westminster by Craig Wood house

:40:10.:40:14.

from the Sun and Rowenna Davis from the New Statesman, looking very

:40:14.:40:19.

cold indeed. Rowenna Davis, I don't know if you heard Harriet Harman,

:40:19.:40:23.

are you comfortable with the Labour idea that judges should become the

:40:23.:40:27.

ultimate arbitrators of press freedom? It is an interesting

:40:27.:40:31.

proposal which has had a reasonably warm welcome, largely because it is

:40:31.:40:35.

quite constructive and has a natural solution, it is reasonably

:40:35.:40:39.

comprehensible, not too long and deals with a chief problem that a

:40:39.:40:44.

lot of the press had which was there was too much involvement of

:40:45.:40:49.

Ofcom. Where I think there are a couple of worries are the role of

:40:49.:40:53.

judges, as you rightly pointed out. Having spoken to colleagues in

:40:53.:40:57.

various newspapers there is a concern that several times in the

:40:57.:41:02.

past with things like injunctions, judges have not always acted in the

:41:02.:41:05.

public interest. Secondly there is a concern about whether this deals

:41:05.:41:14.

with new media sufficiently. A commercial blocks of really big

:41:14.:41:17.

outlets like Guido Fawkes and the Huffington Post will not be obliged

:41:17.:41:21.

to join us. We need a settlement that works with the changing

:41:21.:41:26.

newspaper industry and not just one as we see it today. Is this some

:41:27.:41:36.

happy to have judges as the ultimate arbitrator? -- is the Sun?

:41:36.:41:40.

Whether judges are the right people to hold it to account, we don't

:41:41.:41:46.

necessarily know. The fundamental problem with these proposals today

:41:46.:41:50.

is it still amounts to a statutory underpinning, which the industry

:41:50.:41:54.

and many Conservatives say they will not stomach. It will come to

:41:54.:41:59.

the cross-party talks on Thursday. It certainly moves Labour closer to

:41:59.:42:02.

the Lib Dems by saying they no longer need Ofcom, but I think they

:42:02.:42:08.

will get opposition from people, including David Cameron. Again

:42:08.:42:12.

talking to newspaper colleagues, the settlement does not get agreed

:42:12.:42:17.

soon, that will be the worst thing. Because this odd limbo state exists

:42:17.:42:20.

where the press are trying to report some politicians but

:42:21.:42:25.

politicians are trying to decide whether are not to boot some

:42:25.:42:30.

statutory like -- regulation. Let's move onto gay marriage. Is it

:42:30.:42:34.

doing damage to the Conservatives in the sense that it shows they are

:42:34.:42:40.

quite deeply divided? I'm not really sure what some of these

:42:40.:42:44.

Conservatives are up to. We heard earlier from Peter Bone, who

:42:44.:42:50.

obviously feels strongly, and some others of a strongly religious

:42:50.:42:54.

nature Feely -- clearly feel strongly. But lots of moderates,

:42:54.:42:58.

including David Cameron, say this is the direction they want to lead.

:42:58.:43:03.

I think it is squabbling on the backbenches, but once they become

:43:03.:43:09.

more people forget about them. If it happens in time for 2014, which

:43:09.:43:13.

the Government hopes, it will all be forgotten about by the 2015

:43:13.:43:17.

general election. Gay marriage does not divide the Labour Party, but

:43:17.:43:23.

what about drug decriminalisation? Will Labour have the guts to accept

:43:23.:43:27.

the recommendations? I really hope so. The whole issue of

:43:27.:43:30.

decriminalisation is one of those issues where the evidence is

:43:30.:43:34.

consistently in its favour and it has always been the politicians

:43:34.:43:39.

refusing to step up to the evidence and take an lead on it. I would

:43:39.:43:44.

hope it will start to happen. You saw on the Today programme...

:43:44.:43:47.

we hope and what happens are often different, what do you think will

:43:47.:43:52.

happen? I don't know what will happen exactly, I think Labour will

:43:52.:43:57.

still discuss it. It is interesting with Ed Miliband at the moment, he

:43:57.:44:02.

is prepared to take on quite a few issues which go against the typical

:44:02.:44:05.

political lines. Whether it has been Leveson or the banks, he has

:44:05.:44:09.

consistently said, let's challenge the frame of the debate at the

:44:09.:44:15.

moment. Most recently on voting on benefit changes, he may go against

:44:15.:44:18.

what is established political law, I hope he does that on drugs.

:44:18.:44:26.

chance, Crich quite -- Chris? don't think so. I think it is a

:44:26.:44:30.

step too far. Ed Miliband's thing is about taking on the vested

:44:30.:44:36.

interests, I don't know what be vested interest is here. We will

:44:36.:44:41.

let you get into some warmth, thank you foreign during the cold and the

:44:41.:44:47.

sirens! They were probably looking for you, or looking for me!

:44:47.:44:50.

Should ministers consider ending criminal penalties for people found

:44:50.:44:53.

with small quantities of drugs if they are going to a treatment

:44:53.:44:58.

programme? The Commons home affairs committee thinks so. A report out

:44:58.:45:01.

today says Britain might benefit from following an approach which

:45:01.:45:05.

has been pioneered in Portugal. It used to be Sweden or Amsterdam we

:45:05.:45:09.

went to, but Portugal is now the new one. What does the Minister

:45:09.:45:12.

thing? The Home Secretary has said she

:45:12.:45:16.

does not think the Royal Commission has the answer at the moment, but

:45:16.:45:20.

the report is a thoughtful, comprehensive and intelligent

:45:20.:45:23.

report. We don't necessarily need to agree with every recommendation

:45:24.:45:29.

and we will analyse it properly, because it has just been published.

:45:29.:45:34.

We want to have an informed policy, informed by fresh thinking and

:45:34.:45:37.

based on the best evidence available so we will look at it

:45:37.:45:47.
:45:47.:45:54.

We are joined by Paul Uppal, Bridget Phillipson and by Annette

:45:54.:46:00.

Brooke. I think they will look at it. I saw the minister on Skye TV

:46:00.:46:04.

this morning certainly looking at the Portuguese example and said

:46:04.:46:08.

they would look at it. It's important in the grand scheme of

:46:09.:46:15.

things - and I am the father of three children - I know how

:46:16.:46:22.

pertinent it is. I worry about my children being exposed to drugs in

:46:22.:46:26.

the future. Why did they did a Royal Commission is not necessary?

:46:26.:46:31.

There are some positives. Even the report noticed this as well. If you

:46:31.:46:35.

look at 11-15 year olds there are a decline in the numbers of them

:46:35.:46:39.

using these soft drugs, also with the harder drugs there is a decline

:46:39.:46:44.

there. It is important to focus on the two main issues - one is the

:46:44.:46:48.

harder drugs and second are recreational drugs taken at

:46:48.:46:52.

weekends. On both those fronts we are seeing progress. Bridget

:46:52.:46:58.

Phillipson, will Labour grapts this nettle? Is there a con-- grasp this

:46:58.:47:02.

nettle? Is there a convention not to do anything about this? I am a

:47:03.:47:05.

member of the Home Affairs Committee. We are clear that drugs

:47:05.:47:10.

policy is one area to be considered. It is a wide-ranging report, which

:47:10.:47:14.

looks at a number of aspects, treatment, how we enforce, how to

:47:14.:47:19.

get money back where it is laundered through UK banks. The

:47:19.:47:23.

issue of decriminalisation or otherwise is an aspect. It is one

:47:23.:47:28.

that gets the headline. It is why we recommended a Royal Commission.

:47:29.:47:34.

Personally, I was not persuaded by the arguments around

:47:34.:47:37.

decriminalallisation. I know colleagues who visited Portugal

:47:37.:47:42.

were interested by what they saw there. It is not a sanction of free

:47:42.:47:46.

approach in Portugal. Members were impressed by what was being done

:47:46.:47:49.

there, in making sure we address the consequences properly. There is

:47:49.:47:54.

still a problem, in this country, with how we treat people who are

:47:54.:47:58.

using drugs, including alcohol. I see that with the work I do as an

:47:58.:48:02.

MP. We have a long way to address that, to make sure people get the

:48:03.:48:06.

right treatment they need, so they are not a victim of crime.

:48:06.:48:12.

Liberal Democrats have traditionally been, how shall I put

:48:12.:48:22.

it! Liberal on this matter. You have the legalise cannabis

:48:22.:48:27.

motion - and they rush to hose it down. The grown-up party should say

:48:27.:48:32.

we should look at the evidence. It cannot be said that the

:48:32.:48:36.

reclassification of drugs under the last Government was based on

:48:36.:48:39.

scientific evidence. I have to admit I feel strongly we should be

:48:39.:48:44.

looking at the evidence, but then, as a parent, I get tugged. I think

:48:44.:48:49.

we should look at all these projects. We're not doing well. We

:48:49.:48:54.

have the vicious circle with people taking drugs, stealing, into jail,

:48:54.:48:59.

more drug-taking and on we go, on and on. It surprised me official

:48:59.:49:04.

figures show official drug use in England and Wales is at the lowest

:49:05.:49:11.

rate since 1996. That is surprising. That is encouraging. You are on the

:49:11.:49:17.

committee - why is that? It shows that decriminalisation is not the

:49:17.:49:20.

answer. Why they use drugs and cause harms to themselves and

:49:20.:49:25.

others is complex. The work I did before I was an MP, working with

:49:25.:49:29.

people who were homeless is people use drugs because of trauma in

:49:29.:49:33.

their lives and because of poverty. The action that Labour took to try

:49:33.:49:38.

and work with families to stop that happening and to address the root

:49:38.:49:45.

causes did lead to a decline in drug use. These declines in use,

:49:45.:49:48.

notwithstanding - the war on drugs has been lost, not just in this

:49:48.:49:52.

country, it has been lost across the Western world, in the United

:49:52.:49:56.

States. Shouldn't politicians be prepared to be more radical than

:49:56.:50:01.

just say more of the same? I think it is important to look at the

:50:01.:50:11.
:50:11.:50:13.

causes we are looking at here. There's a three tronged report. You

:50:14.:50:20.

-- those who have drug dependency, wean them off that. I know I heard

:50:20.:50:24.

you speaking there - I met somebody who was in prison for most of his

:50:24.:50:29.

adult life, when I became an MP. He said the main thing which got him

:50:29.:50:36.

off drugs was a stable family life. Those are the fundamentals.

:50:36.:50:41.

word is moving here - Washington State have become the first to

:50:41.:50:49.

legalise marijuana. At election time a number of pleb cysts, voted

:50:49.:50:59.
:50:59.:51:01.

for a more -- a number of plebisites voted for a more... You

:51:01.:51:06.

would like a Royal Commission? happy looking across the board. We

:51:06.:51:11.

have to look at different types of drugs, because obviously new ones

:51:11.:51:19.

are emerging, switching from one to the other. I don't think it is as

:51:19.:51:25.

simple as decriminalising cannabis. How did you miss the trip to

:51:25.:51:31.

Portugal? I had just had a baby. Now, hip, hip, hooray for the

:51:31.:51:36.

European Union, who today formally accepted the Nobel Peace Prize at a

:51:36.:51:40.

ceremony in Norway. David Cameron declined to go, but the Deputy

:51:40.:51:44.

Prime Minister, he couldn't wait. The EU was given the award for its

:51:44.:51:49.

role in united Europe after two world wars. Some of the more

:51:49.:51:54.

cynical may say that the award is inappropriate at a time when the EU

:51:54.:51:59.

is struggling with the financial crisis. You are just a bunch of

:51:59.:52:05.

meanys. Here is Nigel Farage. utterly bemused. We saw Angela

:52:05.:52:10.

Merkel going to Athens, people dressed up in Nazi uniforms and a

:52:10.:52:16.

feeling of mutual disgust, which has grown up between Germany and

:52:16.:52:20.

Greece. I find it absolutely baffeling that the EU could have

:52:20.:52:26.

been awarded this prize. Frankly, it brings the Nobel Prize into

:52:26.:52:32.

total disrepute. Were you baffled? That was quite a long baffled!

:52:32.:52:36.

you baffled when you heard the news? It was something I didn't see

:52:36.:52:42.

coming. I didn't expect that one. Were you baffled when you heard it,

:52:42.:52:49.

high the EU got the prize? It is unusual to award it for an

:52:49.:52:51.

institution as opposed to an individual. We saw greater

:52:51.:52:57.

integration, it was for a good reason. It emerged from the horror

:52:57.:53:01.

of war. Many people disagree with how Europe has gone since. I am a

:53:01.:53:06.

support of Britain having a strong role in Europe. Shouldn't we have

:53:06.:53:10.

given it to NATO? That kept the peace. Europe doesn't do it by

:53:11.:53:16.

itself, but no, I don't think it is a bad thing to have done it.

:53:16.:53:24.

has said, political satire become obs leet when Harry kissing ger was

:53:25.:53:31.

awarded the Nobel Prize. A lot of people in the country dislike the

:53:31.:53:36.

EU and reading about it, don't feel comfortable about this. It is an

:53:36.:53:41.

institution which needs reforming - absolutely! But I think we can look

:53:41.:53:46.

back on a relative 70 years of peace in Europe. Would you put it

:53:46.:53:52.

down to the EU or to the spread of demock rasy and the NATO defence

:53:52.:53:56.

system? -- democracy and the NATO defence system? All things have to

:53:56.:54:01.

come together. I remember learning about the heartland, which would be

:54:01.:54:06.

a battle to get control over the centre of Europe. It is quite a

:54:06.:54:12.

weak one overall, but you can match that to what was happening with the

:54:12.:54:16.

power based around Germany. By balancing strengths out across the

:54:16.:54:20.

EU, that has been important. Those critics who say, oh, it should just

:54:20.:54:25.

be a trade treaty, would obviously not see that as appropriate. It

:54:26.:54:29.

always surprises me when one is door-knocking and a member of the

:54:29.:54:35.

Liberal Democrats says, you are favour -- in favour of the EU. Look

:54:35.:54:41.

at what you are doing to us. I reply back. But we have had peace

:54:41.:54:47.

for 70 years. That is something to be valued. You must, as a Tory, be

:54:47.:54:57.
:54:57.:54:57.

proud that Winstonure hill has been ooze en? I always have a warm glow

:54:57.:55:05.

many my heart when we mention Winston Churchill. Equally a noble

:55:05.:55:12.

recipient could have been NATO. It was just an idea that flooded

:55:12.:55:19.

into my mind! Great minds think alike. Let's talk about the fate of

:55:19.:55:25.

Britain's most famous MP - not David Cameron, but Nadine. She

:55:25.:55:33.

travelled to the jung toll take part in I'm a celebrity get me out

:55:33.:55:43.

of here. They withdraw the whip. Yesterday she told the Sunday

:55:43.:55:48.

Politics why she took part. Children run up to me with their

:55:48.:55:54.

mobile phones and say, Are you an MP?" what is it like to eat a

:55:54.:55:59.

spider N Westminster, back in the corridor of powers, my name has

:55:59.:56:03.

been removed from the Conservative Party's website list of MPs. In

:56:03.:56:07.

2015, a whole new generation of voters will go into the voting

:56:07.:56:12.

booth in Mid-Beds put a cross next to my name and know who they are

:56:12.:56:17.

voting for. Far from being a disaster, I'm a celebrity - with a

:56:17.:56:22.

total success. I have no regrets and I would do it all again. Well,

:56:22.:56:27.

today she meets the Chief Whip. So, what should her fate be? Should she

:56:27.:56:33.

get the whip back? That is above my pay grade actually, Andrew.

:56:33.:56:38.

must have a view. I have a view on this and I know I watched this

:56:38.:56:41.

yesterday on TV. Is this for her or for the Conservative Party? I'm

:56:41.:56:46.

going to quote Ronnie Wood on this - I am not sure - he said of all

:56:46.:56:50.

the addictions in life. I think he's done most of them, of all the

:56:50.:56:55.

vices. H said the most famous one is fame. I think politicians can

:56:55.:56:58.

get addicted to seeing themselves in black and white that can be a

:56:58.:57:02.

dangerous think. If we are talking about drugs and linking this in,

:57:02.:57:07.

maybe she has gone from a soft user into a hard user in terms of media

:57:07.:57:12.

addiction. Is she good for bad for the Torys? She is certainly

:57:12.:57:15.

interesting. She has strong views on a number of issues. I respect

:57:15.:57:19.

the fact she has those views. However, I don't think we should

:57:19.:57:23.

confuse the job we do with being a celebrity. I think she is in the

:57:23.:57:31.

risk of confusing that. She has an important job. She would be better

:57:31.:57:36.

serving kirpblts out of the -- constituents out of the jungle.

:57:36.:57:40.

Is fame necessarily going to mean you will make achievements?

:57:40.:57:47.

Politicians here are to change things. This will disappear.

:57:47.:57:53.

Putting your own views aside, what in general is the view of

:57:53.:58:01.

backbenchers to here? She has a lot of school children asking who she

:58:01.:58:05.

was and what it was like eating a spider. We will see this story

:58:05.:58:08.

unfold. There's just time before we go to

:58:08.:58:13.

find out the answer to our quiz. What luxury item would Eric Pickles

:58:13.:58:23.
:58:23.:58:27.

take with him if he got stuck in a What is the correct answer? Does

:58:27.:58:33.

anybody know? I thought you would mention curry. I have to go for the

:58:33.:58:38.

pork pie. The correct answer is Earl Grey tea. You can cut out the

:58:38.:58:42.

bin collections. Thank to all the guests being here. The news is

:58:42.:58:46.

starting on BBC One now. Jo will be here tomorrow at noon, with all the

:58:46.:58:50.

Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS