Browse content similar to 11/12/2012. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Good afternoon and welcome to the Daily Politics. Once upon a time | :00:45. | :00:47. | |
the Conservatives and Liberal Democrats seemed united on the | :00:47. | :00:52. | |
issue of civil liberties. But is that unity under threat? The | :00:52. | :00:55. | |
coalition is at loggerheads over plans to allow police and | :00:55. | :01:01. | |
intelligence services to monitor all email and internet use. Nick | :01:01. | :01:04. | |
Clegg says the bill needs a fundamental re-think. Theresa May | :01:04. | :01:10. | |
says the plans must proceed without delay. The Culture Secretary will | :01:10. | :01:12. | |
today lay out the Government's plans to introduce same sex | :01:12. | :01:15. | |
marriages. But campaigners against the plans accuse ministers of being | :01:15. | :01:20. | |
dishonest and of conducting a "sham" consultation. Is David | :01:20. | :01:23. | |
Cameron running scared of the TV election debates? Labour think he | :01:23. | :01:27. | |
is after the PM said he thought the format was flawed. We'll have our | :01:27. | :01:33. | |
very own TV debate! And, as fresh data from the Census is revealed, | :01:33. | :01:36. | |
what does it tell us about the changing face of Britain over the | :01:36. | :01:41. | |
years? All that in the next hour, and with us for the whole programme | :01:41. | :01:43. | |
today is Mark Littlewood, he's the director general of the free-market | :01:43. | :01:53. | |
:01:53. | :01:54. | ||
think-tank the Institute of Economic Affairs. Now, first let's | :01:54. | :01:56. | |
turn our attention to Northern Ireland. The Northern Ireland | :01:56. | :01:59. | |
Secretary Theresa Villiers will make a statement to MPs later today | :01:59. | :02:01. | |
about the situation after another night of violence in Belfast. Let's | :02:01. | :02:07. | |
talk to our Northern Ireland Political Editor Mark Devenport. | :02:07. | :02:14. | |
What happened last night? We have more serious trouble, the most | :02:14. | :02:20. | |
significant incident was an attack on a police officer's car. A female | :02:20. | :02:27. | |
police officer was essentially guarding an office. Meyer may long | :02:27. | :02:32. | |
was the first politician to be elected as an MP from the Alliance | :02:32. | :02:36. | |
Party, and that party has been and very much at the centre of this | :02:36. | :02:41. | |
because they have been the target of loyalist protests. They backed | :02:41. | :02:49. | |
the idea of taking the union flag down for 365 days, and merely | :02:49. | :02:55. | |
putting it up for 17 designated days over the city hall and that is | :02:55. | :03:00. | |
what has caused so much anger in the communities. We can see a | :03:00. | :03:04. | |
pretty extensive police presence on the streets because this has gone | :03:04. | :03:11. | |
on for over a week, hasn't it? I don't think anybody knew there | :03:11. | :03:15. | |
would be this odyssey in outside the council meeting but there has | :03:15. | :03:20. | |
been genuine surprise these protests have continued for so long. | :03:20. | :03:24. | |
The politicians are dividing, unionists are blaming nationalists | :03:24. | :03:31. | |
for having brought up the issue of the Union flag in the first place, | :03:31. | :03:35. | |
and the Alliance Party has been blaming Unionist fostering tensions | :03:35. | :03:40. | |
about this, distributing leaflets around the Belfast area. They now | :03:40. | :03:45. | |
have a problem, which is that something has started and it is | :03:45. | :03:50. | |
proving easier to start than to stop it. One to about David Cameron, | :03:50. | :03:53. | |
who has been criticised in some quarters for not speaking out | :03:53. | :04:00. | |
sooner on this issue? They have certainly anger within the Alliance | :04:00. | :04:03. | |
party that in 10 Downing Street they have not taken more notice of | :04:03. | :04:08. | |
the fact they now have a member of parliament facing a death threat, | :04:08. | :04:14. | |
and clearly a very serious threat after we saw the female police | :04:14. | :04:18. | |
officer attacked outside her council office. Normally the | :04:18. | :04:22. | |
Alliance Party are very mild mannered, a cross-community group | :04:22. | :04:26. | |
who specialise in compromising, but they have been very angry in the | :04:26. | :04:31. | |
light of these attacks and they are saying the Prime Minister needs to | :04:31. | :04:35. | |
come out and be more forthright about this. We will get the | :04:35. | :04:39. | |
statement of course. I suppose the main feeling here will be | :04:39. | :04:44. | |
distressed that something like this has managed to trigger a week long | :04:44. | :04:49. | |
disturbance. Pretty timely and a shocking reminder, isn't it? From | :04:49. | :04:54. | |
the mainland, and not being an expert in Northern Ireland politics, | :04:54. | :04:59. | |
my impression was that things are more or less solved over there, | :04:59. | :05:04. | |
going along peacefully. Suddenly something which is ceremonial, I | :05:04. | :05:14. | |
:05:14. | :05:15. | ||
wouldn't call it trivial, but ceremonial trusts -- just starting | :05:15. | :05:21. | |
this off and perhaps the United Kingdom is more fragile than we | :05:21. | :05:26. | |
think. These are testing times and we have not found a solution yet. | :05:26. | :05:31. | |
In terms of the criticism of David Cameron, do you think he hasn't | :05:31. | :05:36. | |
shown enough leadership on this? does need to be more clear on this. | :05:36. | :05:41. | |
I wouldn't say he was sleepwalking but he needs to make a stand pretty | :05:41. | :05:47. | |
fast and this has been going on too long without his intervention. | :05:47. | :05:54. | |
Now for something a little different. It's time for our daily | :05:54. | :06:01. | |
quiz. The question for today is - David Cameron said yesterday that | :06:01. | :06:04. | |
his daughter pestered him to vote for a contestant on a reality TV | :06:04. | :06:14. | |
:06:14. | :06:14. | ||
show. So who did he back? The Government published a draft | :06:14. | :06:21. | |
version of its Communications Data Bill in June. The new bill would | :06:21. | :06:23. | |
mean that companies would have to store information about online and | :06:23. | :06:26. | |
internet communications, which could be accessed by police and | :06:26. | :06:36. | |
:06:36. | :06:37. | ||
intelligence agencies. After criticisms that the bill was | :06:37. | :06:40. | |
tantamount to a snooper's charter, the Government agreed to send it to | :06:40. | :06:46. | |
a committee of MPs and peers for detailed scrutiny. That committee | :06:46. | :06:49. | |
has now published its report on the bill and, whilst they recognise the | :06:49. | :06:52. | |
need for legislation, they're not impressed with the bill as it | :06:52. | :06:55. | |
stands. Under the proposals, companies would have to store the | :06:55. | :06:58. | |
details of communication - who sent messages to whom, and when - but | :06:58. | :07:06. | |
not what they actually say, for 12 months. The bill would cover things | :07:07. | :07:09. | |
like Twitter and Facebook messages, webmail, and phone calls made over | :07:09. | :07:12. | |
the internet. It does not include details of people's internet search | :07:12. | :07:14. | |
histories. The Home Office argues that access to people's phone | :07:15. | :07:17. | |
records is already available. The new Bill just brings the existing | :07:17. | :07:21. | |
law up to date. They also say that access to the data will be limited | :07:21. | :07:23. | |
to the police, intelligence services, and a small number of | :07:24. | :07:26. | |
other Government agencies. As with the current rules, other public | :07:26. | :07:29. | |
bodies like local councils would have to go to court to see the | :07:29. | :07:32. | |
information. But critics like Brig Brother Watch say it is a "naked | :07:32. | :07:35. | |
attack on privacy". They fear that it will be possible for the police | :07:36. | :07:38. | |
to piece together people's internet histories. And the committee which | :07:38. | :07:40. | |
has scrutinised the bill says it will need "substantial rewriting" | :07:41. | :07:43. | |
before it can be brought before Parliament. The Home Secretary, | :07:43. | :07:46. | |
Theresa May, has said that those who oppose the Bill are "putting | :07:46. | :07:49. | |
politics before people's lives". But today Lib Dem leader Nick Clegg | :07:49. | :07:51. | |
has said that it needs a "fundamental rethink". Let's speak | :07:51. | :07:53. | |
to our political correspondent. Gary, can we characterise it like | :07:53. | :07:57. | |
this - that this committee has agreed there was a need for | :07:57. | :08:02. | |
legislation but it needs to be rewritten? I think that is pretty | :08:02. | :08:07. | |
fair. It acknowledges there is a capability gap, as the jargon goes, | :08:07. | :08:14. | |
and it says that should be addressed, as does a similar | :08:14. | :08:18. | |
committee, the committee that covers the intelligence services | :08:18. | :08:22. | |
which has also produced a report on this. Both the committees do not | :08:22. | :08:26. | |
like the proposals and it is that a breath of power the Government is | :08:26. | :08:30. | |
seeking that they don't like. For example they don't like the idea | :08:30. | :08:35. | |
there Home Secretary would be able to extend the numbers of | :08:35. | :08:38. | |
organisations without new legislation that would be able to | :08:38. | :08:42. | |
access this information. It doesn't like the fact there will be | :08:42. | :08:48. | |
categories of data it can expand into without making it explicit on | :08:48. | :08:56. | |
the face of the bill. It doesn't like the numbers, the amount it | :08:56. | :09:05. | |
says will be saved in the long run is fanciful. There are a number of | :09:05. | :09:09. | |
problems, and that is before you going to the political problems | :09:09. | :09:12. | |
with the Liberal Democrats and Nick Clegg effectively saying we are not | :09:12. | :09:17. | |
going to help you get this through. Let's go into the political | :09:17. | :09:22. | |
problems. Is it possible to go by Theresa May's deadline that she | :09:22. | :09:26. | |
would like this on the statute before the next election? It is | :09:26. | :09:29. | |
possible because Nick Clegg has said he is not against the | :09:30. | :09:33. | |
principle of extending these powers but he doesn't like the way it it | :09:33. | :09:38. | |
is being done. There is talk of the government accepting the substance | :09:38. | :09:42. | |
of the recommendations made by this committee, a committee that Nick | :09:42. | :09:47. | |
Clegg insisted was set up so it was his idea to have this scrutiny. If | :09:47. | :09:51. | |
that committee comes back and says to do things and the government | :09:51. | :09:57. | |
agrees, Nick Clegg is in a position where he will have to say why | :09:57. | :10:04. | |
aren't you agreeing with that? There will be manoeuvring and | :10:04. | :10:08. | |
discussion but at the moment there is this stand-off, which is useful | :10:08. | :10:12. | |
to Nick Clegg at the moment politically because civil liberties | :10:12. | :10:18. | |
is an issue his party is very keen on. This is something where he can | :10:18. | :10:28. | |
:10:28. | :10:32. | ||
demonstrate to his party that he is pushing back against the Tories. | :10:32. | :10:36. | |
With us now is the Conservative MP Michael Ellis, who was a member of | :10:36. | :10:38. | |
the Bill committee, and Jimmy Wales, co-founder of Wikipedia. Why do we | :10:39. | :10:42. | |
need this legislation? A There is a big gap in what the police can do | :10:42. | :10:46. | |
in terms of convicting individuals who commit offences. We are in a | :10:46. | :10:50. | |
situation because of the dramatic advances in technology over the | :10:50. | :10:56. | |
last decade or more that if a criminal, whether in a paedophile | :10:56. | :11:04. | |
gang, a terrorist, or other serious offender, uses the internet for | :11:04. | :11:07. | |
communication, the police can't necessarily obtain evidence against | :11:07. | :11:13. | |
that individual whereas if they use them landline telephone or a mobile | :11:13. | :11:18. | |
telephone, they will be able to. We have to allow the police to be able | :11:18. | :11:22. | |
to prosecute serious offenders and we need to therefore make sure the | :11:22. | :11:28. | |
law keeps up with modern technology. It is a pretty powerful argument, | :11:28. | :11:34. | |
isn't it, in order to arrest and convict serious offenders? Be it | :11:34. | :11:40. | |
would be if this Bill actually did anything towards those goals. The | :11:40. | :11:45. | |
issue is, when you mentioned Facebook in the introduction, | :11:45. | :11:49. | |
Facebook maintains data on everyone and co-operate with the police | :11:49. | :11:59. | |
folly. This particular bill was incompetent. It would not have | :11:59. | :12:04. | |
helped in the vast majority of cases. It was either it easy to | :12:04. | :12:10. | |
evade, by simply using a service provider based in the United States | :12:10. | :12:14. | |
or Russia, or for the Dome criminals they are already on | :12:14. | :12:24. | |
:12:24. | :12:26. | ||
Facebook. -- dumb criminals. you don't disagree there needs to | :12:26. | :12:36. | |
:12:36. | :12:39. | ||
be legislation to help the police? I don't disagree... Millions of | :12:39. | :12:46. | |
people already having their day to a log, who would therefore be | :12:46. | :12:51. | |
vulnerable to theft, but having said that the principle there is a | :12:51. | :13:01. | |
gap and we should look for narrowly focused, cautious measures that | :13:01. | :13:07. | |
don't target the public, that would be fine. Clearly you didn't agree | :13:07. | :13:11. | |
with many of the recommendations? What is important and what Nick | :13:11. | :13:17. | |
Clegg and others have agreed with, and the committee made clear, both | :13:17. | :13:22. | |
the committees, is that there is a need and they accept that because | :13:22. | :13:30. | |
they know there was a gap. There you to are broadly agreed there was | :13:30. | :13:33. | |
a gap, but let's get to how you do that because your committee says it | :13:33. | :13:38. | |
has to be rewritten if it meets substantial concerns about | :13:38. | :13:44. | |
safeguards, cost and lack of consultation. They pretty well say | :13:44. | :13:49. | |
the bill in its current form is dead. I don't agree it is dead. The | :13:49. | :13:53. | |
government have said they are quite happy to look at the issues around | :13:53. | :13:59. | |
the bill. We can tweak around the edges and move forward, that is | :13:59. | :14:04. | |
what coalition is all about, but the government is happy to accept | :14:04. | :14:07. | |
the substantive issues behind this report and that means they accept, | :14:08. | :14:13. | |
as do the authors of this report, my committee, but it goes deeper | :14:13. | :14:19. | |
than that. Before being an MP, I was a barrister in criminal | :14:19. | :14:23. | |
practice and I have seen prosecutions of individuals. We | :14:23. | :14:27. | |
will lose prosecutions of criminals if we do not allow the criminal law | :14:27. | :14:32. | |
to keep up with modern forms of technology. Are you prepared for | :14:32. | :14:38. | |
that to happen? It is important to understand there are ways we can | :14:38. | :14:43. | |
prevent crime and convict criminals that are not having an open society | :14:43. | :14:48. | |
and the cost may be too high. In this case I don't think we need to | :14:48. | :14:51. | |
reach that question because the bill was technically incompetent. | :14:52. | :14:58. | |
If you really care about stopping criminals, use the �1.8 billion to | :14:58. | :15:06. | |
engage in serious investigative There is a lot of misinformation | :15:06. | :15:11. | |
about what this Bill proposes to do. It's not about content. Already, | :15:11. | :15:17. | |
information is retained on than features in this Bill by | :15:17. | :15:22. | |
supermarkets, by people who have loyalty guarantee cards. Look, what | :15:22. | :15:28. | |
the Bill envisages is an ability to know who and when, it's not about | :15:28. | :15:31. | |
the content of messages. Right, and if it's not about the content of | :15:32. | :15:35. | |
messages, surely a phone call between you and me can be logged, | :15:35. | :15:38. | |
tracked and the amount of time we spend on that telephone, not what | :15:38. | :15:43. | |
we say to each other, and therefore my privacy and yours is retaind? | :15:43. | :15:47. | |
am an unreconstructed slib tearian on this point -- civil libertarian | :15:47. | :15:53. | |
on this point. I'm concerned about the techy issues. As soon as this | :15:53. | :15:56. | |
is held on a server in Japan or Russia, it's out with the reach | :15:56. | :16:01. | |
anyway. So I take the point that Jimmy said, what are we going to do | :16:01. | :16:08. | |
to track the ideals who'll store stuff offshore. It's a Home Office | :16:08. | :16:12. | |
bureaucratic solution. The Home Office said we've got the silver | :16:12. | :16:16. | |
bullet and they say it involves capturing more data on everybody. | :16:16. | :16:21. | |
They are always trying to search for a needle and build a haystack. | :16:21. | :16:24. | |
It's interesting that it's characterised as a Home Office | :16:24. | :16:26. | |
situation. We have heard evidence from Chief Constables, people have | :16:26. | :16:32. | |
been police officers for 30 or 40 years. From people who've... Don't | :16:32. | :16:36. | |
the police always demand extra powers to be fair, nothing's | :16:36. | :16:40. | |
changed there? They are not demanding extra powers but they are | :16:40. | :16:43. | |
demanding and asking for the same amount of power as they currently | :16:43. | :16:48. | |
have with your landline or telephone, mobile telephone, with | :16:48. | :16:52. | |
modern forms of communication. Why deprive them of that? If you are | :16:52. | :16:56. | |
able to see which websites people are browsing, perhaps because you | :16:56. | :16:59. | |
are trying to find out about a paedophile ring, that's content | :16:59. | :17:03. | |
isn't it? If you are able to see what people are looking at on a | :17:03. | :17:07. | |
day-to-day basis, that is looking at content? It isn't. Why not? | :17:07. | :17:10. | |
Because the fact of the matter is, you can't draw many conclusions | :17:10. | :17:14. | |
from that. If you looked at a... Really? If you looked at a criminal | :17:15. | :17:17. | |
lawyer and you were able to see a large number of telephone numbers | :17:17. | :17:20. | |
in his phone that belonged to criminal clients, you can't | :17:21. | :17:24. | |
conclude from that that he's a criminal himself, he may have | :17:24. | :17:27. | |
reasons why he has people's phone numbers. You can't jump to | :17:27. | :17:32. | |
conclusions in that way. All this envisages doing - we must get away | :17:32. | :17:36. | |
from the misinformation being spread about this - there's clear | :17:36. | :17:38. | |
misinformation. This is about what time a phone call is being made, | :17:38. | :17:43. | |
for example, what day it is being made, from what number A to what | :17:43. | :17:46. | |
number B, it's exact think same information that the police can get | :17:46. | :17:51. | |
now on a landline. Right. Would you see that as content, if we could | :17:51. | :17:57. | |
see what you were browsing at on a day toch day basis? Yes, clearly, | :17:57. | :18:02. | |
but I think I think the boundary between Communications Data and | :18:02. | :18:07. | |
content has become very tricky and difficult to sort through. One of | :18:07. | :18:12. | |
you expressed by some -- one view expressed by people is that the web | :18:13. | :18:18. | |
blogs are there, but searching Wikipedia, I can tell a lot about | :18:18. | :18:24. | |
you because I can load up the same URL myself. You can at Tesco and | :18:24. | :18:28. | |
Sainsbury's, because of a loyalty card. I refuse to have a loyalty | :18:28. | :18:31. | |
card. That's up to the individual. This is not going to be voluntary, | :18:31. | :18:37. | |
this is going to be the police taking this information. You need | :18:37. | :18:42. | |
sufficient calls... It's not... is because you are talking about | :18:42. | :18:46. | |
the same issues of data. You can choose to give the information | :18:46. | :18:50. | |
across. We are talking about proper safeguards, it isn't just a | :18:50. | :18:53. | |
phishing exercise, let's get away with that. That's the criticism, | :18:53. | :18:56. | |
that in order to get some of the criminals you talk about, you have | :18:56. | :19:01. | |
to go on a phishing exercise, otherwise how do you know who to | :19:01. | :19:05. | |
look at? You would have to go on a phishing expedition? No, there are | :19:05. | :19:09. | |
proper safeguards, just as in other legislation, about the more old- | :19:09. | :19:12. | |
fashioned forms of communication. Look, the police are now in a | :19:12. | :19:17. | |
position, police and surt services, thanks to advances in technology -- | :19:17. | :19:21. | |
Security Services, thanks to advances in technology, where they | :19:21. | :19:27. | |
can only secure evidence from 75% of the time, down from 95% a few | :19:27. | :19:30. | |
years ago. That means voiceover Internet communication is used to | :19:30. | :19:35. | |
defeat their arrest. Now, do those who really want to block this Bill, | :19:35. | :19:39. | |
for whatever reason, want to allow that to happen? We have heard | :19:39. | :19:44. | |
evidence from the Child Exploitation online unit... Do you | :19:44. | :19:48. | |
want this to go on? One thing we have to understand z that a | :19:48. | :19:51. | |
fanciful view of technology would say, let's track all the data, but | :19:51. | :19:56. | |
the truth is you cannot. You physically, technologically cannot. | :19:56. | :20:01. | |
It's trivial for people to use services overseas, we are not | :20:01. | :20:05. | |
talking about sophisticated criminals, I'm just talking | :20:05. | :20:10. | |
ordinary people can easily avaid this with the minimal of effort -- | :20:10. | :20:16. | |
evade. The thought that police could get access to all the data, | :20:16. | :20:21. | |
this is a dream or a nightmare, depending on how you look at it, | :20:21. | :20:26. | |
but it's impossible, it isn't going to happen. That's why this Bill us | :20:26. | :20:31. | |
- was never going to work. Nick Clegg is make it clear where he | :20:31. | :20:34. | |
stands. He wants it rewritten. Do you think he should sign up to it | :20:34. | :20:37. | |
if there is a more targeted approach, if some of the things | :20:37. | :20:39. | |
that Michael has talked about, if the safeguards are there. Is it | :20:39. | :20:43. | |
something that Nick Clegg should sign up to? I think not. I would | :20:43. | :20:47. | |
like us to listen to the experts who've made a career on the | :20:47. | :20:51. | |
Internet who know the technological stuff which I think goes way beyond | :20:51. | :20:53. | |
the heads of most of our politicians. If the Government | :20:53. | :20:56. | |
thought this was a serious way of cutting crime, this would have been | :20:56. | :21:00. | |
in the first Queen's Speech in 2010. I think this is a bureaucratic | :21:00. | :21:04. | |
invention and I hope the Deputy Prime Minister kills it stone dead. | :21:04. | :21:09. | |
There you go! Just before we finish, do you agree it should be rewritten, | :21:09. | :21:14. | |
that more safeguards have to be put in, that it should be more targeted, | :21:14. | :21:17. | |
in other words a completely different piece of legislation | :21:17. | :21:20. | |
think it's perfectly possible to look at the issues around the Bill | :21:20. | :21:22. | |
and the Home Office have already said that. This is something that | :21:22. | :21:26. | |
we have to move forward with. The Liberal Democrats agreed to this in | :21:26. | :21:29. | |
the separate yick defence review. Nick Clegg called for this | :21:29. | :21:34. | |
committee that I spent five months sitting on -- Strategic Defence | :21:34. | :21:38. | |
Review. We have heard moving evidence, include prg the Child | :21:38. | :21:42. | |
Exploitation unit. I can assure you, we do not want to allow one of the | :21:42. | :21:46. | |
paedophile gangs or individuals to get away with it. Jimmy said about | :21:46. | :21:49. | |
not being successful all the time, obviously we are not, but if we can | :21:49. | :21:53. | |
get a handful of these people off the streets, we need to do just | :21:53. | :21:56. | |
that. Thank you very much. The | :21:56. | :21:59. | |
Government's localism Act was designed to give local people more | :21:59. | :22:03. | |
say over planning. But do they have enough power? One MP wants a new | :22:03. | :22:07. | |
local right to appeal against adverse planning decisions. The MP | :22:07. | :22:13. | |
for Kingswood near Bristol spoke to us earlier. I asked him what it was | :22:13. | :22:16. | |
proposing? A community right of appeal, one of the big problems I | :22:16. | :22:21. | |
find as a local MP of planning decisions is that when decisions go | :22:21. | :22:25. | |
against residents, they have no right of appeal against the big | :22:25. | :22:29. | |
applications of snarbgts or housing developments. This would give | :22:29. | :22:33. | |
residents the chance to collect signatures within a washed and get | :22:33. | :22:38. | |
to apeople against the planning decision -- appeal against the | :22:38. | :22:42. | |
planning decision. How many signatures would you require? | :22:42. | :22:48. | |
couldn't just get a couple of signatures to change things and get | :22:48. | :22:55. | |
red tape to the area of growth. If you had 50% of signatures in a | :22:55. | :22:58. | |
particular ward, that would trigger an appeal to go to the planning | :22:58. | :23:02. | |
sector or the Secretary of State. Does thnt fly in the face of the | :23:02. | :23:05. | |
Government's plan to promote more development, not give local people | :23:05. | :23:10. | |
even more rights to block it when we need it for economic growth? | :23:10. | :23:15. | |
really. This is localism with teeth. This idea was actually in the | :23:15. | :23:18. | |
Conservative's open source green paper when we were in opposition | :23:18. | :23:22. | |
and I think we should be promoting growth and houses. We need new | :23:22. | :23:27. | |
houses, we need new developments at the same time, we can't ride rough | :23:27. | :23:31. | |
shot over local opinion. I think what this does is really sort out | :23:31. | :23:36. | |
the genuine concerns of big applications from the any more bys, | :23:36. | :23:42. | |
so you are not a nimby if half the ward has concerns about what is | :23:42. | :23:46. | |
happening in the local area. Do you think the Government's lost the | :23:46. | :23:51. | |
stomach for localism? It made a push on local agendas, but we have | :23:51. | :23:53. | |
had moves for a new planning framework and inspectorate so they | :23:54. | :23:56. | |
can appeal if local people object. Do you think the Government's lost | :23:57. | :24:00. | |
its interest in localism? No, not really. I think we have to | :24:00. | :24:04. | |
have responsible localism, so we have got the local councils | :24:04. | :24:07. | |
developing their core strategy. We have gone from a situation where we | :24:07. | :24:15. | |
had top down housing targets dictated by Westminster. Localism | :24:15. | :24:21. | |
can't be an excuse for nimbyism. You have to develop housing, so | :24:21. | :24:26. | |
issues like where you can have the community right of appeal would | :24:26. | :24:36. | |
:24:36. | :24:37. | ||
sort out the principles. If you did manage to collect, if you were a | :24:37. | :24:41. | |
washed in a borough and you did manage to collect the 50% bar and | :24:41. | :24:45. | |
present it to the council, what would happen then? Would it be | :24:45. | :24:49. | |
reviewed or dropped all together? You would have a time period, so | :24:49. | :24:53. | |
maybe you would have to collect the signatures over one or two months, | :24:53. | :24:58. | |
you would have to do nit the framework or it would be red tape. | :24:58. | :25:00. | |
Then after that, it would be a planning appeal to the planning | :25:00. | :25:03. | |
sector or the Secretary of State. You would have to have a sizeable | :25:04. | :25:07. | |
number of signatures for it to reach that stage. That would be | :25:08. | :25:10. | |
decided by whoever enacted the policy. | :25:10. | :25:13. | |
Thank you. That was Chris skidmore MP talking | :25:13. | :25:17. | |
to me earlier. Let's take this idea. What do you think of it, giving | :25:17. | :25:21. | |
people the chance, 50% of people in a local ward could say no, we are | :25:21. | :25:24. | |
not going to have that development and the council has the look at it | :25:24. | :25:29. | |
again? I don't agree. I often agree with Chris on a lot but not on this | :25:29. | :25:34. | |
occasion. Why? He's identified the problem here. This isn't the | :25:34. | :25:38. | |
solution. It is so difficult to get anything built in the United | :25:38. | :25:41. | |
Kingdom. This is yet another barrier to it. Here is the thing. | :25:41. | :25:45. | |
What you really need to do is to make sure that the pain and the | :25:45. | :25:48. | |
benefits are equally felt at local level. So I would like a local | :25:48. | :25:52. | |
community to be able to say not just we want to block this because | :25:52. | :25:57. | |
we don't want 2500 new houses built on the hill, but I would like them | :25:57. | :26:01. | |
to have a deal on offer where if you are willing to let the 00 | :26:01. | :26:09. | |
houses be built, we'll cut your council tax next year, it will be | :26:09. | :26:10. | |
cheaper for you, we'll have higher council tax elsewhere, now you make | :26:10. | :26:15. | |
your mind up, you know. If you are willing to let the new Tescos come | :26:15. | :26:20. | |
into town which is virtually always against planning, we promise to pay | :26:20. | :26:24. | |
X towards your council tax. We have to make the tax benefit localised. | :26:24. | :26:30. | |
This is another barrier. I can see why that might be attractive, but | :26:30. | :26:33. | |
isn't this the problem that the Government isn't committed to a | :26:33. | :26:37. | |
local agenda. They want it reforically but not in reality in | :26:37. | :26:41. | |
order to let communities make make that sort of decision you have just | :26:41. | :26:44. | |
put forward? That's offen if problem. It happened with the last | :26:44. | :26:47. | |
Labour Government in opposition. It's all localism and devolving | :26:47. | :26:51. | |
power when you get into office, and little of it happens when you get | :26:51. | :26:55. | |
into office. The coalition are making some steps in order to try | :26:55. | :27:01. | |
and liberalise planning, in fairness, with Nick Bowl. There | :27:01. | :27:08. | |
seems to be a concern that if we build houses we are going to | :27:08. | :27:13. | |
bulldoze natural beauty areas. Only 5% of Britain sun der concrete. | :27:13. | :27:20. | |
There is a lot of useless land we can build on -- is under concrete. | :27:20. | :27:25. | |
We need to let young people get their foot on the housing ladder, | :27:25. | :27:29. | |
when they are frozen out now. Thank you. Don't say we don't spoil | :27:29. | :27:32. | |
all your politics lovers out there. Today we are going to delve into | :27:32. | :27:37. | |
one of the big issues of the age - individuals versus the state. Do we | :27:37. | :27:40. | |
expect too much from Governments these days? Does big statement | :27:41. | :27:44. | |
limit our individual freedomss, or should we trust in the state to do | :27:44. | :27:50. | |
our best for us. Here is Mark Littlewood to explain more about | :27:50. | :28:00. | |
:28:00. | :28:12. | ||
I want to live in a world in which the individual stands tall, not | :28:12. | :28:16. | |
buildings, not Government, not the state, but individual men and women. | :28:16. | :28:20. | |
That's the sort of country I want to live in. | :28:20. | :28:25. | |
Politicians and bureaucrats spend nearly 50% of our total national | :28:25. | :28:29. | |
income. If you are an absolutely average taxpayer, over the course | :28:29. | :28:36. | |
of your lifetime, you will be handing over about �7 50,000 to | :28:37. | :28:39. | |
politicians, bureaucrats and the Government. | :28:39. | :28:43. | |
Of course, for these hundreds of billions of pounds a year, the | :28:43. | :28:46. | |
state will promise you a wonderful mixture of things. They'll take | :28:46. | :28:51. | |
care of you when you're sick, they'll look after you when you're | :28:51. | :28:54. | |
old, they'll educate your children in schools, and if you are really | :28:54. | :28:59. | |
lucky, they might even spend some of your cash on renewable energy. | :28:59. | :29:03. | |
Of course, we have made some progress. It's only about 30 years | :29:03. | :29:07. | |
ago that the state was running nearly all of our industries. Coal | :29:07. | :29:13. | |
mines, steelworks, Telecoms, aviation, the car industry. We sold | :29:13. | :29:17. | |
all of that off. But, there's much, much further to go. | :29:17. | :29:22. | |
If we as individuals want to stand tall and walk proud, we need to | :29:22. | :29:26. | |
wise up. The fastest growing economies in the world have a state | :29:26. | :29:31. | |
sector that only accounts for about a quarter of their national income. | :29:31. | :29:36. | |
Here in the UK, it's about twice that. They're building and growing, | :29:37. | :29:41. | |
investing. Here in Britain, we can't even decide whether or when | :29:41. | :29:46. | |
to build a third runway. So we need to stop believing the | :29:46. | :29:50. | |
myth that politicians can spend our money and pull levers to make our | :29:50. | :29:56. | |
lives better and get the trains running on time. No, we need to | :29:56. | :30:03. | |
seek power for ourselves. And we are joined by Polly Toynbee | :30:03. | :30:07. | |
of the Guardian who might take issue wa few of those things. | :30:07. | :30:11. | |
Fallowing the fastest growing economies there is one thing Mark | :30:11. | :30:17. | |
suggests. We'll talk about that in a minute. Wouldn't it be better if | :30:17. | :30:22. | |
individuals were deciding what the money was spent on? If you look at | :30:22. | :30:27. | |
the most successful economies in the world, according to la Garta | :30:27. | :30:30. | |
institute, right-wing, they are Norway, Sweden and Finland and | :30:30. | :30:35. | |
spend a huge amount of money on the state and have a very successful | :30:35. | :30:42. | |
economy and very successful society, possibly the most successful known | :30:42. | :30:48. | |
to mew mankind. It's a question of what society you want. If you want | :30:48. | :30:53. | |
the Mitt Romney vision and Sarah Palin Everymanforhimself, pay for | :30:53. | :30:56. | |
everything ourselves and devil take the hindmost, sure we can have a | :30:56. | :31:06. | |
:31:06. | :31:13. | ||
low tax, small state society. Most Is that the sort of society you | :31:13. | :31:19. | |
want, no, but it is my assertion that we can sort these problems out | :31:19. | :31:25. | |
for a lower proportion than we are spending at the moment. Polly is | :31:25. | :31:31. | |
right, I have picked out 25%, it is not a religious commitment, but you | :31:31. | :31:37. | |
should be able to address the problems of real poverty. What | :31:37. | :31:42. | |
country has 25%? The you are right to point out that there is a catch | :31:42. | :31:48. | |
of theory in China, but if you were to say Singapore or hung Kong, low | :31:48. | :31:53. | |
proportions of the economy, staggering growth. At the end of | :31:53. | :31:59. | |
the Second World War it was about as rich as a Third World country, | :31:59. | :32:05. | |
and now it is richer than Great Britain. Sweden spends more than | :32:05. | :32:11. | |
the United Kingdom... And their top rate of tax is 56%. For if you look | :32:12. | :32:18. | |
at 25 years ago, about 60% was the size of the Swedish state, now to | :32:18. | :32:24. | |
the High 40s. They have privatised vast areas of their economy. A what | :32:24. | :32:34. | |
:32:34. | :32:44. | ||
an exaggeration. They have cut from 60% to 45% in their schools. Some | :32:44. | :32:49. | |
schools are on by private companies but people don't pay to go there. | :32:49. | :32:56. | |
That is relatively few. They have a government they call right wing | :32:56. | :33:03. | |
that would be wildly to the left of where new Labour was. But right of | :33:03. | :33:08. | |
where Sweden was in the 1970s. so on like us in every way. They | :33:08. | :33:13. | |
expect to get the best possible nurseries for every single child, | :33:13. | :33:18. | |
where half of the staff are graduates. They have the quality of | :33:18. | :33:22. | |
public service we could only dream of and it is successful | :33:22. | :33:26. | |
economically. There is satisfaction with public services - isn't that | :33:26. | :33:31. | |
what people want here? Better schools, better NHS, and for that | :33:31. | :33:37. | |
at one stage they were prepared to pay higher taxes. This is not her | :33:37. | :33:41. | |
argument between nice people who want better schools and hospitals... | :33:41. | :33:46. | |
How can you achieve that? The my question is how much of that is | :33:46. | :33:51. | |
sensibly provided by the state, and I think for considerably less | :33:51. | :33:56. | |
spending you can solve the problems. We have tried the big-spending | :33:56. | :34:05. | |
route. The know, we haven't. It has been done in the past two were | :34:05. | :34:10. | |
bewildering lack of effect. If at that time we have seen poverty | :34:10. | :34:17. | |
obliterated, OK, then maybe big spending would work. The talk about | :34:17. | :34:22. | |
bureaucracy. That is a real propagandist trick. Do you mean the | :34:22. | :34:27. | |
ward clerk doing all of the work in the ward so the nurses are doing | :34:27. | :34:32. | |
the nursing? The moment you start talking about bureaucracy you know | :34:32. | :34:37. | |
it is a pretty shabby argument. Do you want the policeman on the beat | :34:37. | :34:45. | |
or doing the paperwork? You can't put to call on saving paper clips. | :34:45. | :34:50. | |
A third of Whitehall is being cut right now and they are no longer | :34:50. | :34:56. | |
able to write contracts. The reason they got the West Coast Main Line | :34:56. | :35:04. | |
contract wrong is because of this. What a boat the welfare bill, there | :35:04. | :35:09. | |
is huge support a court that. that his people on the dole, and | :35:09. | :35:15. | |
people don't know that. They are astonished when you say only 2%. | :35:15. | :35:22. | |
Unemployment pay in this country is only �71 a week, not very much. | :35:22. | :35:26. | |
think in broad terms the welfare bill, the amount of money to spend | :35:26. | :35:34. | |
on it, should be focused on the bottom five or 10%. Who would you | :35:34. | :35:39. | |
cut? I don't think I should qualify for the state pension, I am | :35:39. | :35:46. | |
affluent enough to look after myself, as you'd two are. Everybody | :35:46. | :35:49. | |
qualifies for welfare at some point in their life and I think that is | :35:49. | :35:55. | |
absurd. There is a poor segment of society, an unlucky segment you | :35:55. | :35:59. | |
need to cater for, but that does not involve giving me a state | :35:59. | :36:07. | |
pension when I'm 65. The pension is enormous, half. I would love you to | :36:07. | :36:12. | |
stand for election on this because you would suffer the same fate as | :36:12. | :36:16. | |
Sarah Palin and Mitt Romney. If you think the state should not look | :36:16. | :36:23. | |
after old people, you would not get a lot of support. With people | :36:23. | :36:28. | |
living much longer and being asked to work... For you can't square | :36:28. | :36:34. | |
that circle through taxation. Somewhere that pension needs to be | :36:34. | :36:41. | |
saved for. My argument is that people as affluent as us should | :36:41. | :36:46. | |
look after themselves. Most people can do that over their lifetime. We | :36:46. | :36:50. | |
should be focusing on the bottom 10% in the welfare bill, not the | :36:50. | :36:55. | |
whole spectrum of the population. Put it to the people, I will enjoy | :36:55. | :37:05. | |
:37:05. | :37:29. | ||
your spectacular failure. Thank you. There's lots we think we know about | :37:29. | :37:33. | |
the people who live in the UK. We guess at social trends, patterns of | :37:33. | :37:36. | |
behaviour and judge the changing face of society, but only every ten | :37:36. | :37:39. | |
years do we actually put it to the test. This morning more details | :37:39. | :37:42. | |
from the 2011 Census were published and it shows in England and Wales a | :37:42. | :37:45. | |
growing, ageing and more ethnically diverse population. It also reveals | :37:45. | :37:48. | |
how many live here but weren't born here. Every ten years since 1801 | :37:48. | :37:51. | |
the UK population has been asked to answer such questions and though | :37:51. | :37:53. | |
society, fashion, lifestyle, and attitudes have changed over time | :37:53. | :37:57. | |
the way we chart that change hasn't really. Used to map and plan what | :37:57. | :38:00. | |
services are needed to match that change the Census is a huge | :38:00. | :38:03. | |
undertaking, and each decade throws out surprises. Now the latest batch | :38:03. | :38:08. | |
of statistics has been released from the last Census in 2011. The | :38:08. | :38:11. | |
population of England and Wales is 56.1 million 3.5 million more than | :38:11. | :38:19. | |
2001. Half of that increase has been due to migration. 7.5 million | :38:19. | :38:22. | |
were born outside the UK, and 3.8 million of those arrived here in | :38:23. | :38:30. | |
the last 10 years. Race and ethnicity is not as new to the | :38:30. | :38:33. | |
census as you might think, but England and Wales are becoming more | :38:33. | :38:40. | |
ethnically diverse. Since 2001 "mixed race" has been a census | :38:40. | :38:43. | |
choice, in 2011 those who describe themselves as mixed race number 1.2 | :38:43. | :38:53. | |
:38:53. | :38:55. | ||
million up 50% on 2001. These days it's a lot quicker but how useful a | :38:55. | :38:58. | |
10 year census is in planning for the needs of a modern increasingly | :38:58. | :39:08. | |
:39:08. | :39:09. | ||
shifting and diverse population is up for debate. Already some local | :39:09. | :39:12. | |
authorities seek their own data, and in Scotland the question of | :39:12. | :39:17. | |
whether there be a 2021 census is actively under discussion. Joining | :39:17. | :39:21. | |
me now is the Chairman of the Home Affairs Select Committee Keith Vaz | :39:21. | :39:24. | |
and the Chairman of Migration Watch Sir Andrew Green. Do you think | :39:24. | :39:30. | |
Britain was open to migration in the Labour years of power? No, I | :39:30. | :39:34. | |
think we had an appalling record as far as illegal migration was | :39:34. | :39:39. | |
concerned and if people want come into our country and settle here | :39:39. | :39:44. | |
and participate in our way of life and pay their taxes to fund | :39:44. | :39:48. | |
contribute to the country and helped to bring the Olympics and | :39:48. | :39:51. | |
compete in the Olympics, we should celebrate and welcome that | :39:51. | :39:57. | |
diversity so these figures are very welcome. They show the community is | :39:57. | :40:03. | |
settled and that there are people who still want to come here. People | :40:03. | :40:08. | |
do move out of Britain. I know a lot of people who have migrated to | :40:08. | :40:12. | |
France, India, other countries and that is the way it is in a | :40:13. | :40:16. | |
globalised world. We should celebrate these figures and I | :40:16. | :40:21. | |
celebrate my city in Leicester is the country's first ethnic-minority | :40:21. | :40:29. | |
city. The country has changed and we should embrace it? I am amazed | :40:29. | :40:36. | |
at what Keith Vaz is saying here. Globalisation did not start in 1997. | :40:36. | :40:40. | |
The inflow of migrants prior to that year was really rather limited. | :40:40. | :40:45. | |
We now have nearly 4 million immigrants in 10 years. 10 years | :40:45. | :40:51. | |
ago we forecast it would be 2 million, it was double that, but we | :40:52. | :40:56. | |
were jumped on by the left-wing press for even suggesting it might | :40:56. | :41:00. | |
be 2 million. We are where we are, and to that extent I agree - we | :41:00. | :41:06. | |
have these people in our community and we must join together. This is | :41:06. | :41:12. | |
a key point, we must get the scale under control. It is not acceptable | :41:12. | :41:17. | |
to go on in the direction we are going now. This is actually about | :41:17. | :41:26. | |
not controlling immigration. The border control has been inefficient, | :41:27. | :41:33. | |
and people are still here after 15 years who have been here illegally. | :41:33. | :41:39. | |
What unites us is being tough on illegal immigration. It is | :41:39. | :41:47. | |
difficult to come here now, frankly, legally. You really have to explain | :41:47. | :41:51. | |
how 4 million people arrived here in the course of 10 years. | :41:51. | :41:58. | |
money will have come from Poland. 30% came from Eastern Europe, the | :41:58. | :42:02. | |
rest came from the rest of the world and the reality is that we | :42:02. | :42:07. | |
lost control of immigration for 10 years. Whether that was a | :42:07. | :42:12. | |
deliberate policy or inefficiency by the Border Agency, we don't know | :42:12. | :42:16. | |
but we can't go on like this. Labour politicians down to Ed | :42:16. | :42:21. | |
Miliband have said that Labour ignored the concerns of its own | :42:21. | :42:26. | |
constituency, if you like, over immigration and many people did | :42:26. | :42:29. | |
feel it was out of control, particularly when it came to | :42:29. | :42:34. | |
pressure on services, schools, hospitals, that communities | :42:34. | :42:40. | |
couldn't cope. You must accept that is what your party has said. | :42:40. | :42:44. | |
don't accept it. I was the minister for enlargement under the last | :42:44. | :42:49. | |
Labour government and we reunited Europe. Those who come from eastern | :42:49. | :42:54. | |
Europe have contributed hugely to our country. They pay their tax so | :42:54. | :43:00. | |
if people are worried about pressure on schools and doctors, if | :43:00. | :43:05. | |
you pay your tax, that contributes. We have signed treaties and they | :43:05. | :43:10. | |
are legally here in this country and they contribute. Do you support | :43:10. | :43:14. | |
the Government's policy to reduce migration numbers to the tens of | :43:14. | :43:18. | |
thousands? If no, because they want to stop genuine students coming | :43:18. | :43:23. | |
into this country. If people want to come and study in this country, | :43:23. | :43:28. | |
they contribute and after three- year stay should leave. Isn't there | :43:28. | :43:32. | |
risk you will stop people coming here who would genuinely boost the | :43:32. | :43:39. | |
economy? Like students. There may be some things we agree on, but not | :43:39. | :43:44. | |
much of what you have just said. We support the enlargement of Europe, | :43:44. | :43:48. | |
but the previous government fold that up by opening the borders when | :43:48. | :43:54. | |
no one else did. That is ancient history. I think Ed Miliband is | :43:54. | :43:59. | |
starting to realise where public opinion lies. If we go on as we are | :43:59. | :44:04. | |
at 200,000 a year, this is net migration after the Brits have left, | :44:04. | :44:09. | |
if we go on like that, in the next 15 years we will have to build | :44:09. | :44:15. | |
power eight largest cities - Birmingham, Manchester, Liverpool, | :44:15. | :44:24. | |
Leeds, Sheffield, Bradford, Glasgow, Bristol - we have got to do all of | :44:24. | :44:29. | |
that just for new immigrants and there is no money. Sounds great. I | :44:29. | :44:36. | |
don't have a problem with this. It is not obvious to me that 4 million | :44:36. | :44:42. | |
immigrants is bad news. Why do we think we have reached the optimum | :44:42. | :44:46. | |
population for Britain? I do have worries about legality, and if | :44:46. | :44:52. | |
people are only coming to take welfare, but that is not borne out | :44:52. | :44:59. | |
by the statistics. We got into a situation where British Asians were | :44:59. | :45:04. | |
contributing more to the Exchequer than they were taking out. Doesn't | :45:04. | :45:07. | |
it make it a great country that we have the whole world living here in | :45:07. | :45:14. | |
The Chancellor, George Osborne, has been speaking in the Commons and | :45:14. | :45:21. | |
has told MPs the next Budget will be on March next year. The Shadow | :45:21. | :45:24. | |
Chancellor revealed Labour will vote against Government plan force | :45:24. | :45:30. | |
a 1% cap on benefit rises. Just a quick reaction to that? Labour's | :45:30. | :45:33. | |
going to vote against... Well, I have to agree with something, so | :45:33. | :45:38. | |
yes, it's a great idea. Just checking you are awake there, well | :45:38. | :45:41. | |
done, Keith Vaz! Now, the Labour Party has accused David Cameron of | :45:41. | :45:46. | |
running scared of taking part in any future TV election debates. The | :45:46. | :45:49. | |
Prime Minister told journalists at the press gallery lunch that he | :45:49. | :45:53. | |
thought the debates in 2010 overshadowed the election campaign. | :45:53. | :45:57. | |
Mr Cameron said he was in favour of debates in principle but suggested | :45:57. | :46:02. | |
the format of the debates had "Sucked the life out of the | :46:02. | :46:05. | |
campaign". We'll have our very own TV debate about this in a moment, | :46:05. | :46:13. | |
but let's remind ourselves of the infamous debates. MUSIC: Eye of the | :46:13. | :46:16. | |
tiger... You've got to answer this question. | :46:16. | :46:19. | |
We will continue to match the funding of the police as of now. | :46:19. | :46:23. | |
You are saying you are going to cut it. Be honest with the public | :46:23. | :46:29. | |
because you can't airbrush your policies even though airbrush your | :46:30. | :46:35. | |
posters. Gordon Brown is trying to make you believe he can protect | :46:35. | :46:41. | |
health spending, edge police and education spending. He's given this | :46:41. | :46:45. | |
country the biggest budget deficit of any developed country in the | :46:45. | :46:48. | |
world. How does it help anyone in Bristol or anyone else for that | :46:48. | :46:52. | |
matter David Cameron to join together in the Europe with a bunch | :46:52. | :46:55. | |
of nutters, anti-assembly mites, people who deny climate change | :46:55. | :46:59. | |
exists, home Phoebes. That does not help Britain. We need to change the | :46:59. | :47:02. | |
European Union but you change clubs of which you are a member by | :47:02. | :47:07. | |
getting stuck in, not standing on the sidelines and complaining. | :47:07. | :47:11. | |
may have the feel of a TV popularity contest, but in truth, | :47:11. | :47:16. | |
this is an election about Britain's future. This is an important issue | :47:16. | :47:21. | |
and people need to know what are in our manifestos. I've set out the | :47:21. | :47:24. | |
policies. People need to know that the Liberal Democrats propose an | :47:24. | :47:28. | |
amnesty for illegal immigrants, which could mean that some 600,000 | :47:28. | :47:34. | |
people who're here illegally would be allowed to stay and be given | :47:34. | :47:39. | |
full sit znship. Every time you talk about our policy, it's always | :47:39. | :47:46. | |
wrong -- citizenship. Joining me now are three aficionados. Ben | :47:46. | :47:51. | |
Bradshaw, Conor Burns and Chris Rennes ard. Don't take offence! -- | :47:51. | :47:55. | |
Renard. Is David Cameron running scared? No, he's pointing out that | :47:55. | :48:01. | |
last time the debates were a huge distraction. There's a reason why | :48:01. | :48:06. | |
Michael Foot and Neil Kinnock wanted them and John Major and | :48:06. | :48:11. | |
Margaret Thatcher didn't want them. David Cameron signed up to it last | :48:11. | :48:16. | |
time around and was maybe foolish to do so? Terribly foolish. The | :48:16. | :48:21. | |
expectation level on Gordon Brown was so low. The expectation on | :48:21. | :48:24. | |
David Cameron was so high that he couldn't deliver on it and nobody | :48:24. | :48:28. | |
knew who Nick Clegg was so he was getting the benefit of exposure. | :48:28. | :48:31. | |
you think they sucked the life out of the campaign? It's true that we | :48:31. | :48:36. | |
noo the media were completely focused obvious those debates? | :48:36. | :48:40. | |
Exactly, but the media tends to get obsessed about this. It would be | :48:40. | :48:44. | |
odd if they didn't happen again. Every other democracy has them, | :48:44. | :48:48. | |
America, Germany, it's a chance for the view and the public to see the | :48:48. | :48:52. | |
three leading or two leading candidates together and for them to | :48:52. | :48:55. | |
scrutinise each other, not just leave it up to journalists, which | :48:55. | :48:59. | |
is what most of the political interviews in the run-up to an | :48:59. | :49:07. | |
election tend to be otherwise. a big risk. How do you think Ed | :49:07. | :49:12. | |
Miliband would perform? You say it's a big risk but I don't think | :49:12. | :49:16. | |
it damaged David Cameron last time. There was a spurt in Nick Clegg's | :49:16. | :49:21. | |
popularity but then it went down and they lost seats, so you can | :49:21. | :49:25. | |
overexaggerate the worth of them. They are valuable but don't let's | :49:25. | :49:30. | |
overclaim for them. Would you like to see another round? Yes, it's | :49:30. | :49:33. | |
impossible to say they were a distraction from the election when | :49:33. | :49:37. | |
more than ten people watched them. People chose to watch them. They | :49:37. | :49:42. | |
did in very large numbers and allowed people to see direct | :49:42. | :49:47. | |
questions to the policy leaders, serious discusses and objective | :49:47. | :49:51. | |
analysis. They are and were a good thing. Do you think for Nick Clegg | :49:51. | :49:54. | |
there was the case, I mean he polled brilliantly after the debate | :49:54. | :49:58. | |
certainly after the first one and perhaps slightly less so the second | :49:58. | :50:03. | |
but it didn't do him as much good as he might have thought? It was | :50:03. | :50:10. | |
the highest vote we have ever had. In terms of seats? But we lost more | :50:10. | :50:17. | |
seats which we think is more the voting style. I think the | :50:17. | :50:21. | |
newspapers on front-page headlines didn't really explain the detail. | :50:21. | :50:26. | |
People are entitled to the facts and get them better from an | :50:26. | :50:30. | |
extended television interview on things like the leaders dedebates | :50:30. | :50:34. | |
than from the tabloid newspapers. Do you think they are a good thing? | :50:34. | :50:37. | |
I do. I'm with Chris and David Cameron saying they sucked the life | :50:37. | :50:44. | |
out of the campaign, that is absurd. For the man in the Dog & Duck pub, | :50:44. | :50:52. | |
this was important. Theiren gaugement in the campaign was | :50:52. | :50:54. | |
watching two or three hours of television. What a breakthrough. | :50:54. | :50:58. | |
That was the discussion many the local pub who, performed well. | :50:58. | :51:04. | |
is the point. Politics was the debate in the pub rather than the | :51:04. | :51:11. | |
thing people didn't discuss? Ie Wild want more interaction -- I | :51:11. | :51:16. | |
would want more interaction and challenging. Like a Question Time | :51:16. | :51:21. | |
style? There is a danger of them becoming read-out pre-prepared | :51:21. | :51:26. | |
statements. The ITV do that one and they did it rather well? They were | :51:26. | :51:31. | |
all slightly different but... one was better. Enough room for a | :51:31. | :51:37. | |
room full of Mrs Duffys for all sides. Fix bid your spin doctor? | :51:37. | :51:41. | |
For all sides. Do you think the format is stuffy having them all | :51:41. | :51:46. | |
standing up instead of engaging a bit more with each other and with | :51:46. | :51:48. | |
the audience? Audience participation is a good thing and | :51:48. | :51:52. | |
it was possible to say that perhaps some of the people conducting them, | :51:52. | :51:57. | |
some were a little self-indulgent as to how they dominated the | :51:57. | :52:00. | |
discussion. Let people have their own say. One key thing about the | :52:01. | :52:05. | |
debates and why it's important to have them, you have things like | :52:05. | :52:07. | |
instant polls and you could prove scientifically what people thought | :52:07. | :52:11. | |
of the different leaders and what they said. If you don't have the | :52:11. | :52:14. | |
broadcast debates and those instant polls, you have newspapers making | :52:14. | :52:20. | |
up trying to say our man did really well, their man did badly, the | :52:20. | :52:25. | |
whole country... Still had that immediately afterwards anyway? | :52:25. | :52:29. | |
they couldn't get away with it. I saw George Osborne distraught with | :52:29. | :52:33. | |
the Sun political team looking on their computer screen at the front- | :52:33. | :52:36. | |
page headline and there was no way they could say anything other than | :52:36. | :52:40. | |
Nick Clegg did really well. What about the format then. What would | :52:40. | :52:45. | |
you like to see? There's been propositions for four debates, | :52:45. | :52:49. | |
Labour's put two forward before and maybe two during, do you think it | :52:49. | :52:53. | |
would be better to have the debates before the campaign starts? I'm not | :52:53. | :52:57. | |
sure we can say anything useful about this. There are long | :52:57. | :52:59. | |
negotiations involving the broadcasters who have a say here | :53:00. | :53:04. | |
with a the political parties. I hope we don't spend the next three | :53:04. | :53:08. | |
years talking about this. We are bound to. That would be a huge | :53:08. | :53:11. | |
distraction from the important things, like policy. Do you think | :53:11. | :53:17. | |
it will happen? Yes, I hope it will and I hope there are three in three | :53:17. | :53:22. | |
very different formats. I think they were a bit too similar last | :53:22. | :53:27. | |
time. Romney versus Obama tried different formats and I would like | :53:27. | :53:30. | |
more experimentation. What about other parties being involved? | :53:30. | :53:37. | |
is where it gets difficult. You have two defending the current | :53:37. | :53:40. | |
Government, the Prime Minister and the Deputy Prime Minister? How | :53:40. | :53:44. | |
would that work? You need to have separate debates in Scotland. In | :53:44. | :53:47. | |
the past, the Conservatives said they couldn't have a debate with | :53:47. | :53:49. | |
the Liberal Democrats because they would be on Labour's side, now you | :53:49. | :53:52. | |
are saying they couldn't take part because they would be on the | :53:52. | :53:55. | |
Conservative side now. Let the three leaders be questioned by the | :53:55. | :54:00. | |
public and by professional journalists in proper inquisitive | :54:00. | :54:03. | |
fashion and you will see the difference between the parties. | :54:03. | :54:08. | |
haven't got an instant poll to see how you rated with the audience | :54:08. | :54:12. | |
today but we'll get back to you! The woman and Equalities Minister | :54:12. | :54:15. | |
has been setting out the details of the Government's plan force gay | :54:15. | :54:18. | |
marriage in the House of Commons. David Cameron and the other party | :54:18. | :54:21. | |
leaders are in favour but many Conservative MPs and others outside | :54:21. | :54:25. | |
Parliament are opposed. We'll speak to one critic in a moment but first | :54:25. | :54:29. | |
here is Maria Miller speaking a few minutes ago. For me, extending | :54:29. | :54:34. | |
marriage to same sex couples will splen then not weaken the vital | :54:34. | :54:38. | |
institution and the response I'm publishing makes clear we'll enable | :54:38. | :54:42. | |
same sex couples to get married through a civil ceremony. We'll | :54:42. | :54:46. | |
enable those religious organisations who wesh to conduct | :54:46. | :54:52. | |
same sex marriages to be able to do so. Based on a similar basis as is | :54:52. | :54:55. | |
available for them for civil partnerships. This is important for | :54:55. | :54:59. | |
obvious reasons, that it would be wrong to ban organisations who wish | :54:59. | :55:03. | |
to conduct same sex marriages from doing so. I'm under no illusions, | :55:03. | :55:08. | |
Mr Speaker, I'm fully aware that the proposals set out today to | :55:08. | :55:13. | |
allow same sex couples to marry is contentious. I'm also clear there | :55:13. | :55:17. | |
should be complete respect for veljous organisations and | :55:17. | :55:22. | |
individual religious leaders who do not wish to marry same sex couples | :55:22. | :55:26. | |
-- religious. The Government has to balance the importance of treating | :55:26. | :55:29. | |
all couples equally and fairly with respect for religious organisations | :55:29. | :55:34. | |
rights for their own beliefs. We need to be fair to same sex | :55:34. | :55:37. | |
couples. The state should not be banning them from such a great | :55:37. | :55:43. | |
institution. Equally, we need to be fair to people of faith. Religious | :55:43. | :55:47. | |
protections that I will set out will ensure that fairness is at the | :55:47. | :55:52. | |
Heart of our proposals. Maria Miller there. Dr Sharon James | :55:52. | :55:59. | |
from the campaign group Coalition for Marriage, joins us now. She | :55:59. | :56:03. | |
said they shouldn't be banned from such a great institution, same sex | :56:03. | :56:08. | |
couples, what is wrong with that? David Cameron's holding great | :56:08. | :56:12. | |
swathes in contempt. This was not in the manifestos of the three main | :56:12. | :56:15. | |
parties. When he launched the sham consultation it was supposedly just | :56:16. | :56:21. | |
about civil marriage and we were told that every single signatory to | :56:22. | :56:26. | |
marriage to keep the union for a man and woman would be counted as a | :56:27. | :56:31. | |
separate response. Lo and behold, now the consultation's been openeds, | :56:31. | :56:36. | |
2t Government is cooking the figures, airbrushed out over the | :56:36. | :56:39. | |
half a million signatorys to the petition and what's worse, is | :56:39. | :56:44. | |
they've done a U-turn and broken the promise and said it's not just | :56:44. | :56:50. | |
about civil marriage, but religious marriage. They have held a | :56:50. | :56:53. | |
consultation and taken very broad views and your views and the ones | :56:54. | :56:58. | |
held by your group are being expressed by many Conservative MPs | :56:59. | :57:03. | |
and others. It sounds like you're being slightly resentful about the | :57:03. | :57:06. | |
process even though the views are and have been taken on board? | :57:06. | :57:11. | |
have not been taken on board. Over half a million signatures to the | :57:11. | :57:14. | |
petition have been relegated and not counted in the headline figure. | :57:14. | :57:17. | |
What explanation have you been given for that? No explanation. | :57:17. | :57:22. | |
What is outrangous is that the Government is counting in | :57:22. | :57:26. | |
submission through their website. They made no safeguard against | :57:26. | :57:29. | |
multiple submissions and no safeguard against submissions from | :57:29. | :57:33. | |
abroad. Benn and Jerry's in America was whipping up support to send in | :57:33. | :57:37. | |
multiple submissions for this. So the Government's ignored people in | :57:37. | :57:41. | |
Britain who supplied names and postcodes and identified themselves | :57:41. | :57:44. | |
and they are counting in vast numbers of people from outside | :57:44. | :57:51. | |
Britain all together who had no right to join in the consultation. | :57:51. | :57:58. | |
Sharon James is very sup set about -- upset about this. | :57:58. | :58:03. | |
Conservative Party, I mean you sometimes wonder whether they at | :58:04. | :58:07. | |
any time, sexuality or foreigners comes up as an issue, they have a | :58:07. | :58:13. | |
collective nervous breakdown. I have sympathy with Sharon about the | :58:13. | :58:17. | |
consultation. It was a manifesto commitment and is now being | :58:17. | :58:22. | |
Leggetted for. My views are radical. I wouldn't have state reck naized | :58:22. | :58:27. | |
marriage but I wouldn't have state heterosexual marriage either. | :58:27. | :58:33. | |
you believe in is freedom and what Mrs Miller ignored - I'm talking | :58:33. | :58:38. | |
about ordinary teachers who'd be dismissed if they wouldn't teach | :58:38. | :58:41. | |
gays I'm going to have to stop you there. Do you know what the answer | :58:41. | :58:46. | |
is to the quiz, who did David Cameron vote for in reality TV | :58:46. | :58:52. | |
show? It was Will Young, except he wasn't a contestant on the X Factor | :58:52. | :58:56. |