Browse content similar to 12/12/2012. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
Line | From | To | |
---|---|---|---|
Morning, Foulkes. This is the Daily Politics. Something is clearly | :00:45. | :00:51. | |
rotten at the heart of our banking system. HSBC, Britain's biggest | :00:51. | :00:56. | |
bank, has just been slapped with the biggest-ever banking fine, over | :00:56. | :01:01. | |
�1 billion for money laundering involving drug cartels. And rogue | :01:01. | :01:06. | |
regimes, and terrorists. The US Department of Justice accused the | :01:06. | :01:12. | |
Bank of having an astonishing record of dysfunction. | :01:12. | :01:15. | |
Westminster has been besieged by the lovers of a pint, who today | :01:15. | :01:20. | |
want to get rid of the so-called beer escalated you to. | :01:20. | :01:30. | |
:01:30. | :01:31. | ||
Has the Government jilted the gay My passionate belief is that the | :01:31. | :01:34. | |
second most precious thing in life is the right to express yourself | :01:34. | :01:39. | |
freely. And we will be looking at moves afoot to get the law on | :01:40. | :01:49. | |
:01:50. | :01:56. | ||
All that and more coming up and the next 90 minutes. With us for the | :01:56. | :01:59. | |
duration on the 12th of the 12th of 2012 -- scary! We have some up and | :01:59. | :02:06. | |
coming stars of the political firmament. Nick Hurd, son of | :02:06. | :02:11. | |
Douglas. He is minister for civil society. You won't find much of | :02:11. | :02:16. | |
that in here! According to the Daily Mail, he has modelled for the | :02:17. | :02:24. | |
Boden catalogue. Is that true? is true. He won't know what that is, | :02:24. | :02:28. | |
but I do. And we also blessed by the shadow | :02:28. | :02:35. | |
business secretary, a male model in his own way, Chuka Umunna. He | :02:36. | :02:40. | |
apparently sang the Mr Bean theme tune. Is that true? It is, with | :02:40. | :02:50. | |
several other people. That is my claim to fame! I got two right in a | :02:50. | :02:55. | |
row! First, the banks. British banks are creating headlines for | :02:55. | :03:01. | |
all wrong reasons. HSBC has been fined more than �1 billion, yes, I | :03:01. | :03:05. | |
said billion, not million, for helping launder money for Mexican | :03:05. | :03:10. | |
drug cartels and rogue states such as that nice place, North Korea, | :03:10. | :03:16. | |
which has just launched a missile. Standard Charter has been fined | :03:16. | :03:19. | |
almost �200 million for sanctions- busting on behalf of nice regimes | :03:19. | :03:24. | |
like Iran and Libya. City traders have been arrested for allegedly | :03:25. | :03:31. | |
fixing the London interbank rate, LIBOR, for which Barclays has | :03:31. | :03:37. | |
already been fined almost �300 million. And the tax payers had to | :03:37. | :03:41. | |
fork out �270 million to Northern Rock customers because the bank | :03:41. | :03:46. | |
couldn't keep its paperwork in order. That only leaves the co-op | :03:47. | :03:54. | |
unscathed. Good old co-op! HSBC turned a blind eye to money | :03:54. | :03:58. | |
laundering by drug cartels, terrorists and regimes in Cuba, | :03:58. | :04:02. | |
Iran, Libya and Burma. It was the Bank of choice for Mexican drug | :04:02. | :04:08. | |
gangs. They used the bank so often they build special boxes to fit | :04:08. | :04:16. | |
into HSBC's teller slots. How could this happen to a British bank? You | :04:16. | :04:20. | |
used to be with Flemings, another British bank. Her who behaved a lot | :04:20. | :04:27. | |
better. The fundamental problem here at the root of all this is | :04:27. | :04:30. | |
that banks were regulated very badly. Gordon Brown has admitted | :04:30. | :04:37. | |
that. The regulatory regime in which banks operated was far too | :04:37. | :04:41. | |
lax. I think there is also another problem, the way in which bankers | :04:42. | :04:48. | |
are paid, it is all about maximising short-term profit. But | :04:48. | :04:52. | |
we are now taking a serious approach to regulation, which we | :04:52. | :04:56. | |
haven't had for 30 years. It wasn't the rules. The problem was that | :04:56. | :05:02. | |
people were breaking the rules. This is a matter of criminality! | :05:02. | :05:06. | |
Absolutely. That is the particular issue here. In relation to Northern | :05:06. | :05:12. | |
Rock, I don't think it is. And ask you about HSBC. It has to be | :05:12. | :05:15. | |
criminality if you are money laundering for grown -- drug | :05:15. | :05:19. | |
cartels in Mexico. I'm amazed nobody has gone to jail over this. | :05:19. | :05:23. | |
Ditto. To say that we should have had better regulated banks is | :05:23. | :05:31. | |
nonsense. Many, including Ed Balls, agree that the political consensus | :05:31. | :05:37. | |
which was Pro a light touch regime was wrong at the time. But the | :05:37. | :05:39. | |
important thing for us is to rebuild trust and confidence in the | :05:39. | :05:44. | |
British banking sector. It is going to take a long time. It will, but | :05:44. | :05:48. | |
there is a national interest in this. Increasingly, people have | :05:48. | :05:52. | |
been talking about it being a London problem, of the back of | :05:52. | :05:57. | |
LIBOR, PPI misselling, interest rates and so on. We have got to | :05:57. | :06:03. | |
resolve this. I am proud that we have the world's global financial | :06:03. | :06:06. | |
services sector here in London, but we have got to maintain that | :06:06. | :06:10. | |
position. We are particularly seen with the regulators in New York, | :06:11. | :06:15. | |
seeking to make political capital out of London's position. Do you | :06:15. | :06:19. | |
think they are picking on us? think there was definitely a hint | :06:19. | :06:22. | |
of that in respect of Standard Chartered and the New York | :06:22. | :06:26. | |
regulator. There were sources close to the Fed and close to the | :06:26. | :06:30. | |
Treasury in the US who looked not very favourably on the attitude | :06:30. | :06:37. | |
adopted. Standard Chartered was found guilty of sanctions busting | :06:37. | :06:43. | |
for a nice places like Iran, Burma and Libya. I am not defending any | :06:43. | :06:46. | |
of the Rhondda whatsoever. I am simply making the point that we | :06:47. | :06:50. | |
have a leading financial services centre here and we have got to | :06:50. | :06:56. | |
maintain that position and rebuild trust and confidence. It isn't just | :06:56. | :07:01. | |
an issue for regulators. It is an issue for the leaders of the big | :07:01. | :07:07. | |
banks themselves. This isn't just a few rotten apples. We need to | :07:07. | :07:15. | |
fundamentally change the culture of our institutions. Most of the HSBC | :07:15. | :07:23. | |
wrong doing took place between 2002 and 2010. He was chief executive of | :07:23. | :07:32. | |
HSBC for most of that time? I... Mr Green? That is right. Stephen Green. | :07:32. | :07:41. | |
And what does he do now? He is a trade minister. How can you have a | :07:41. | :07:49. | |
trade minister who presided over a bank, chairman from 2006-2010, when | :07:49. | :07:55. | |
all this was going on? He has got to account for himself. He regrets | :07:55. | :08:00. | |
it, he says. He hasn't accounted for himself. He is open to | :08:00. | :08:06. | |
accountability on that. I like Stephen Green. I think he is a good | :08:06. | :08:10. | |
chap. There are a lot of people who say it that they think he has done | :08:10. | :08:14. | |
a good job as trade minister, but he could have put this issue to bed | :08:14. | :08:21. | |
if he had come to the House of Lords as many were asking and dealt | :08:21. | :08:26. | |
with questions on this topic. But he hasn't allowed people to | :08:26. | :08:31. | |
question him, to hold him to account. That's the problem. | :08:31. | :08:36. | |
left with a pension pot of... Anyone like to guess? It's not | :08:37. | :08:46. | |
:08:47. | :08:50. | ||
small. Over half a million a year, probably. �19 million pension pot. | :08:50. | :08:57. | |
According to my notes here. And this is a man who was chairman of a | :08:57. | :09:04. | |
bank that turned a blind DI to money laundering by drug cartels, | :09:04. | :09:08. | |
terrorists and regimes in Cuba, Iran, Libya and Burma. Ordinary | :09:08. | :09:11. | |
people watching this programme, struggling to make ends meet as | :09:11. | :09:16. | |
their fuel bills go through the roof, will be saying, there is | :09:16. | :09:20. | |
clearly one law for these kinds of people, a totally different law for | :09:20. | :09:24. | |
me. There is a huge amount of anger at the banks, and this will only | :09:24. | :09:34. | |
throw more petrol on the flames. is on the banking reform committee. | :09:34. | :09:39. | |
Northern Rock taking 270 million from the taxpayer, on top of the | :09:39. | :09:46. | |
billions already given to bail them out. It is stupidity. It is lack of | :09:46. | :09:52. | |
information, typical of the way in which the banks were operating at | :09:52. | :09:57. | |
the time. We need to get regulatory framework, and we are making | :09:57. | :10:06. | |
progress. On this northern Rock issue, and people have been seeing | :10:06. | :10:10. | |
stories about them having to pay out this money, why, given that the | :10:10. | :10:15. | |
Government knew about this in October, would it not factored into | :10:15. | :10:18. | |
the forecast and provided to the OBR to factor into their forecasts | :10:18. | :10:24. | |
of public sector debt? That is one for the Treasury. I don't know the | :10:24. | :10:33. | |
answer. They wanted to keep it out of the public view? Do not think of | :10:33. | :10:39. | |
the Treasury knew about it, they should have factor that in? With | :10:39. | :10:45. | |
the greatest respect, I am not taking any lessons from a Labour | :10:45. | :10:50. | |
politician about failure to regulate the bank's! We need to | :10:50. | :10:55. | |
conduct a proper inquiry and see what comes out of that. It is an | :10:55. | :10:58. | |
unprecedented litany of disasters in the banking sector. Household | :10:58. | :11:03. | |
names like HSBC, Barclays. I don't think we have heard the last of | :11:03. | :11:10. | |
them. You have on this programme, because Jo has a much more | :11:10. | :11:14. | |
important subject. Not a good day for the banks, and also not for | :11:14. | :11:19. | |
beer. What would motivate 1,000 angry men and a few women to | :11:19. | :11:23. | |
descend on Westminster on such a winter's des? The rising price of | :11:24. | :11:33. | |
:11:34. | :11:34. | ||
beer, of course. The government's alcohol duty escalator increases | :11:34. | :11:38. | |
the price of the tax on beer by 2% per year more than the rate of | :11:38. | :11:47. | |
inflation. CAMRA's chief executive is in Westminster. I notice the | :11:48. | :11:51. | |
signs behind you. I believe they are the signs of pubs that have | :11:51. | :11:57. | |
shut. Is that correct? They are indeed, and some of hour | :11:57. | :12:00. | |
campaigners are here today. These are people who have lost their | :12:00. | :12:04. | |
local pubs, and one of the reasons for those pub losses is undoubtedly | :12:04. | :12:09. | |
the high rate of tax we are paying. We would like to see the escalator | :12:09. | :12:13. | |
scrapped. Excuse me for using a hackneyed phrase. We are all in | :12:13. | :12:17. | |
this together. Why shouldn't be a drinkers pay a little more? No one | :12:17. | :12:21. | |
is saying they shouldn't pay their fair share. But what is happening | :12:21. | :12:26. | |
is that they are paying 2% every year above the rate of inflation. | :12:26. | :12:31. | |
We are saying scrap the escalator. The attacks shouldn't go up by more | :12:31. | :12:38. | |
than the rate of inflation. The government's figures show that over | :12:38. | :12:43. | |
the next two years, they are expecting their beer tax revenue to | :12:43. | :12:46. | |
fall while beer drinkers are still paying through the nose. That | :12:46. | :12:53. | |
doesn't look like good politics to me. You are complaining about the | :12:53. | :13:00. | |
price of beer, but according to the campaign for real-ale and the | :13:00. | :13:04. | |
editor of the Good Beer Guide, real-ale has never been in ruder | :13:04. | :13:10. | |
health. Breweries are opening. They have managed to buck the trend on | :13:10. | :13:13. | |
the double-dip recession because there is a surge of the number of | :13:13. | :13:17. | |
brewers coming onto the scene. are here to talk about the overall | :13:17. | :13:23. | |
beer market, and of course pubs. If you look at the whole of the UK, | :13:23. | :13:29. | |
not just real ale, that has just declined massively over the last 20 | :13:29. | :13:33. | |
years, and it continues to do so, so if we are going to get | :13:33. | :13:37. | |
investment back into the market place and back into jobs, we need | :13:37. | :13:41. | |
to see some support for the brewers, but more importantly, when we are | :13:41. | :13:45. | |
seeing so many pubs closing, and we're talking about an industry | :13:45. | :13:51. | |
that supports a million jobs, there is a real opportunity here for the | :13:51. | :13:54. | |
Government to show some support for a great British industry and invest | :13:54. | :13:59. | |
in British jobs. The chairman of the all-party Save the pub group, | :13:59. | :14:04. | |
you were not doing very well. could ask other people. You can ask | :14:04. | :14:10. | |
CAMRA members. We are campaigning on a number of issues. The unfair | :14:10. | :14:17. | |
rates of beer duty is one of them. Today we are here to talk about | :14:17. | :14:25. | |
beer duty. The increase escalator doesn't make sense. It is stifling | :14:25. | :14:32. | |
business, closing pubs. What we are calling for today is common sense. | :14:32. | :14:36. | |
It doesn't make sense to have an escalator introduced in a | :14:37. | :14:40. | |
completely different economic environment in 2008, when inflation | :14:40. | :14:44. | |
was different and the cost of living was different. This is doing | :14:44. | :14:47. | |
damage to a great British industry, and doing damage to pubs who can't | :14:47. | :14:53. | |
absorb the extra costs. But it is your Chief Secretary to the | :14:53. | :14:56. | |
Treasury that keeps putting it up. Have you spoken to Danny Alexander | :14:56. | :15:02. | |
about this? I have indeed, and I raised it in Treasury Questions | :15:02. | :15:05. | |
yesterday. He said it is being looked at, and we are trying to | :15:05. | :15:11. | |
push the case. Alistair Darling left us with a strange situation, | :15:11. | :15:14. | |
criticised by Conservatives and Liberal Democrat MPs when it was | :15:14. | :15:20. | |
introduced, and now being imposed by Labour MPs. This is a tax that | :15:20. | :15:26. | |
no longer makes sense. We are going to do everything we can. There are | :15:26. | :15:31. | |
well over 1,000 CAMRA members giving a very clear message that | :15:31. | :15:36. | |
the beer duty escalator is bad for British pubs, and we hope we met | :15:36. | :15:43. | |
that they will see sense. Just before we go, is it true you are | :15:43. | :15:49. | |
only allowed in your supporters to have tea and biscuits before they | :15:49. | :15:53. | |
meet the MPs? The beer is saved for later? Everybody will get a good | :15:53. | :16:02. | |
old pint of real-ale on CAMRA later! Probably a wise move. Well | :16:02. | :16:10. | |
done for asking. Sorry about that. Cheers to both of you! We do the | :16:10. | :16:20. | |
:16:20. | :16:22. | ||
same, tea and biscuits before and Do you support this campaign? | :16:22. | :16:28. | |
I'm a big fan of CAMRA. They were concerned about the issues which | :16:28. | :16:35. | |
affect pubs, and it's more complex than the beer duty in terms of | :16:36. | :16:41. | |
Wyatt public houses are struggling. There is lots of social factors, | :16:41. | :16:46. | |
not least the price of booze in the supermarkets. This escalator was | :16:46. | :16:55. | |
introduced by a Labour. Would you like to scrap it? What I do know is | :16:55. | :16:58. | |
that the Government is very sensitive to the cost of living | :16:58. | :17:04. | |
issues in relation to council tax, fuel duty. Rail fares. At some | :17:04. | :17:09. | |
point, you do have to recognise there are difficult decisions to be | :17:09. | :17:15. | |
taken. The escalator may be one of them. CAMRA is furious with a | :17:15. | :17:19. | |
government at the moment because they would introduce a statutory | :17:19. | :17:23. | |
code to govern the relation between tenants and large pub companies and | :17:23. | :17:27. | |
they have remained on so many of their commitments. That needs to be | :17:27. | :17:31. | |
dealt with. The seal on anniversary in January when the Government | :17:31. | :17:34. | |
promised to help small pubs which are shutting and they have not done | :17:34. | :17:40. | |
yet. Secondly, where pubs are closing, going under, you often see | :17:40. | :17:42. | |
supermarkets moving straight in because you don't need to change | :17:42. | :17:47. | |
the planning laws. On the review of the beer duty, we support the | :17:47. | :17:56. | |
review. Would you like to see it scrapped? Our commitment to reduce | :17:56. | :18:01. | |
VAT to 17.5% would cut the price of beer by 5p. That actually mean | :18:01. | :18:06. | |
something to people. We are supporting the review. Thank you, | :18:06. | :18:13. | |
gentlemen. Time, as they say. Do you think anybody who watches | :18:13. | :18:18. | |
this programme earns millions of pounds? I don't know how much | :18:18. | :18:28. | |
:18:28. | :18:32. | ||
people in here. I don't know. Enough of this. Now, you bunch of | :18:32. | :18:35. | |
lazy, stay-at-home, silly, nothing better to do than watch the useless | :18:35. | :18:39. | |
Daily Politics, numpties. Watch this. Oi, now you watch it! | :18:39. | :18:44. | |
Insulting me is possibly a criminal offence. And if that doesn't spook | :18:44. | :18:47. | |
you, the sight of Peter Tatchell dressed as a policeman and with a | :18:47. | :18:51. | |
Pantomime Dobbin is definitely enough to scare the horses. Section | :18:51. | :18:54. | |
5 of the Public Order Act was written 26 years ago to tackle | :18:54. | :18:57. | |
football hooligans by making it a criminal offence to use insulting | :18:57. | :19:03. | |
words or behaviour. It's united unlikely bedfellows in a campaign | :19:03. | :19:05. | |
to reform it, after cases of a Christian arrested for saying | :19:05. | :19:12. | |
homosexuality was a sin. A fine later quashed for a teenager who | :19:12. | :19:17. | |
said woof woof to some labradors. And a student arrested for saying | :19:17. | :19:25. | |
to a police officer, "Excuse me". Do you know your horse is gay? | :19:25. | :19:32. | |
is insulting. You on nicked! remember I had been here before in | :19:32. | :19:36. | |
a fictional context. I once did a show called Not the 9 o'clock News, | :19:37. | :19:41. | |
some years ago, and we did a sketch where grief these Jones played | :19:41. | :19:49. | |
Constable Savage. A racist police officer to whom I, his station | :19:49. | :19:54. | |
commander, is given a dressing-down for arresting a black man on a | :19:54. | :20:02. | |
string of ludicrous charges. The charges for which he was arrested | :20:02. | :20:10. | |
worthies. Walking on the cracks in the pavement. Walking in a loud | :20:10. | :20:15. | |
shirt in a built-up area during the hours of darkness. And one of my | :20:15. | :20:22. | |
favourite, walking around all over the place. He was also arrested for | :20:22. | :20:27. | |
urinating in a public convenience. And the looking at me in a funny | :20:27. | :20:32. | |
way. Who would have thought that we would end up with a law which would | :20:32. | :20:38. | |
allow life to imitate art so exactly if? It's often used to | :20:38. | :20:42. | |
arrest people for expressing opinions and beliefs. And we think | :20:42. | :20:47. | |
that is dangerous. It is not compatible with a free and | :20:47. | :20:51. | |
democratic society. We are delighted the cross-party group of | :20:51. | :20:58. | |
MPs are supporting the appeal and we have the backing of both the | :20:58. | :21:02. | |
current director of Public Prosecutions and the formal one. | :21:02. | :21:04. | |
Perhaps the Government's only concern is appearing to licence | :21:04. | :21:14. | |
:21:14. | :21:21. | ||
insulting police men. Right I'm The horse was nodding in agreement. | :21:21. | :21:26. | |
Anyway, Giles Dilnot there. And we're joined now by the Liberal | :21:27. | :21:31. | |
Democrat President, Tim Farron. Welcome back to the Daily Politics. | :21:31. | :21:36. | |
You want to see insulting removed from the Public Order Act, why? | :21:36. | :21:40. | |
It's important to be courteous and polite. It's not wise to insult | :21:40. | :21:44. | |
people. What we're talking about is not the banter we have been | :21:44. | :21:50. | |
discussing, but the rights of people of deeply-held convictions | :21:50. | :21:56. | |
to express them in a way not meant to be abusive, not meant to cause a | :21:56. | :22:01. | |
public order offence, but is simply likely to rile those who take | :22:01. | :22:04. | |
different positions. I have the National secular Society and the | :22:04. | :22:09. | |
Christian Institute in my office not long ago arguing for the right | :22:09. | :22:13. | |
to defend and insult one another. They should be allowed to do so. | :22:13. | :22:18. | |
when that drug Oxford student insulted the police force, by | :22:18. | :22:22. | |
telling the police officer that his horse was gay, he was then arrested | :22:22. | :22:26. | |
for making homophobic remarks. If you change the law, this stuff | :22:26. | :22:33. | |
could not happen anyway? response to this, there is no | :22:33. | :22:37. | |
offence which has been committed in the last few years under this | :22:37. | :22:41. | |
political heading which would not have been easily prosecuted under | :22:41. | :22:45. | |
abusive behaviour, incitement to violence, anything already in | :22:45. | :22:49. | |
existence in the law. The issue is protecting freedom of speech, not | :22:49. | :22:55. | |
reducing the powers of the police. But this is a much coarser nation | :22:55. | :23:00. | |
than it used to be. The traditional British politeness and civilised | :23:00. | :23:04. | |
behaviour has gone out of the window. You only have to drive | :23:04. | :23:12. | |
around London. The House of Commons. Drivers are here behaved the way | :23:12. | :23:16. | |
drivers used to be paid in New York. Are you sure you want to make his | :23:16. | :23:20. | |
even more of a rude society? think the issues the police are | :23:20. | :23:25. | |
concerned about over whether they can apprehend people who are | :23:25. | :23:30. | |
causing difficulty, they are unfounded concerns because the law | :23:30. | :23:33. | |
already allows people to be arrested for abusive behaviour, | :23:33. | :23:38. | |
violent, threatening behaviour and so on. Even an intentional in salt | :23:38. | :23:41. | |
is something different. We're talking at the freedom of speech | :23:41. | :23:44. | |
for people with political, religious, philosophical | :23:44. | :23:48. | |
convictions to be able to say things which are in the face of | :23:48. | :23:52. | |
other people. We have a right to offend and a duty to accept that | :23:52. | :23:58. | |
offence and a free society. What to say about courtesy is different. I | :23:58. | :24:03. | |
agree with you. Western society as a whole is losing very important | :24:03. | :24:07. | |
basic manners that we once had. It's a sad thing but it is not | :24:07. | :24:13. | |
affected by the Government of any colour deciding to prevent free | :24:13. | :24:23. | |
:24:23. | :24:23. | ||
speech. If we take a rift out of the Andrew Mitchell playbook, and | :24:23. | :24:28. | |
call some body a pleb, that is Ruud and stupid to do. But should not be | :24:28. | :24:33. | |
illegal in your view, is that right? I'm not sure. The | :24:33. | :24:36. | |
interpretation of existing law, intentional insults it would be | :24:36. | :24:41. | |
something which is potentially actionable. If somebody perceives | :24:41. | :24:47. | |
there had been insulted, I, as a Christian, being insulted by some | :24:47. | :24:51. | |
body saying there is no God, get over it, I should be able to live | :24:51. | :24:58. | |
for that. If somebody is an atheist, and has offended by me saying they | :24:58. | :25:01. | |
are going to hell, something like that, they have got to live with | :25:01. | :25:06. | |
that. It's an honest exchange of views. Let's see it your | :25:06. | :25:11. | |
parliamentary colleagues agree. not sure we are that course as a | :25:11. | :25:15. | |
society. Shakespeare and Chaucer they were pretty bad. I'm going | :25:15. | :25:23. | |
back a bit. It may be nice inside the Carlton Club. I work in the | :25:23. | :25:28. | |
House of Commons and it pretty tough. There is a clear issue here. | :25:28. | :25:35. | |
Which is why we are consulting on it and reviewing the conclusions. | :25:36. | :25:41. | |
The word insulting leads to challenges. Would you go along with | :25:41. | :25:49. | |
this? I think the Home Office need to look at it. All right. We are | :25:49. | :25:52. | |
not convinced over the need to change this. We will listen to the | :25:52. | :25:55. | |
campaigners on it but I think you can have freeze speech without | :25:55. | :26:04. | |
needing to insult people. -- a free speech. It's about where you | :26:04. | :26:09. | |
personally feel insulted? It's a difference between are being | :26:09. | :26:12. | |
deliberately offended by somebody else for so we have the equal | :26:12. | :26:17. | |
marriage issue this week and those sides should be expressed without | :26:17. | :26:25. | |
worry of being prosecuted. We will keep you posted. Thank you. Now, | :26:25. | :26:28. | |
he's a man of principle who achieves what he wants to do. And | :26:28. | :26:31. | |
he prevails in the end because he's honourable, decent, a great British | :26:31. | :26:34. | |
hero. Who could Tom Baldwin, Ed Miliband's spin doctor, possibly be | :26:34. | :26:41. | |
talking about? Wel,l Wallace of Wallace and Gromit fame. The | :26:41. | :26:43. | |
cartoon character that Times cartoonist Peter Brooks has | :26:43. | :26:47. | |
compared to the leader of the Labour party. Unable to shake off | :26:47. | :26:50. | |
the perhaps unfavourable comparison, the Labour leadership team have | :26:50. | :26:56. | |
decided to embrace it. "He's got a nice dog" says Mr Miliband. And | :26:56. | :26:59. | |
Wallace, or Ed Miliband, also reveals in an interview for Grazia | :26:59. | :27:02. | |
magazine what he bought his wife Justine for her birthday. Jewellery, | :27:02. | :27:09. | |
perfume, underwear perhaps? No, he bought her a coffee machine. Used | :27:09. | :27:15. | |
for. -- used for. Well, Mrs Wallace, I mean Mrs Miliband, if you're | :27:15. | :27:18. | |
watching, we've got the perfect accompaniment for a coffee machine. | :27:18. | :27:21. | |
We'll remind you how to enter in a minute. But let's see if you can | :27:21. | :27:31. | |
:27:31. | :27:31. | ||
Apology for the loss of subtitles for 41 seconds | :27:31. | :28:13. | |
It is twice the size of Trafalgar Square. It's quite is twice the | :28:13. | :28:23. | |
:28:23. | :28:37. | ||
height of Nelson's Column in the # You've got a lot to answer for # | :28:37. | :28:47. | |
:28:47. | :28:48. | ||
Baby, I love you. # You've got a lot to answer for... | :28:48. | :28:58. | |
:28:58. | :29:00. | ||
Lots of guessing in the studio here. To be in with a chance of winning a | :29:00. | :29:03. | |
Daily Politics mug, send your answer to our special quiz email | :29:03. | :29:06. | |
addres. And you can see the full terms and conditions for Guess The | :29:06. | :29:16. | |
:29:16. | :29:17. | ||
Year on our website. Maybe I can get one? I only work here! It's | :29:17. | :29:22. | |
coming up to midday here. Just take a look at Big Ben. It's a cold but | :29:22. | :29:29. | |
rather nice winter's day in London town. PMQs is on its way. Nick | :29:29. | :29:33. | |
Robinson is here. They is is the first chance for Labour to spell | :29:33. | :29:39. | |
out what they would do to the benefit cuts or are joining the tax | :29:39. | :29:43. | |
credits are because, crucial to the argument, an argument about | :29:43. | :29:47. | |
language. The Treasury, George Osborne, wants to talk about | :29:47. | :29:51. | |
capping benefits. Are they are going up but not that fast. Labour | :29:51. | :29:55. | |
are saying, 60% of the people affected are working families, it's | :29:55. | :30:00. | |
a real terms cut say you should talk about cuts to tax credits. The | :30:00. | :30:03. | |
Shadow work and pension secretary has called it a shirkers tax. You | :30:03. | :30:13. | |
listen to these exchanges today, and remember this battle about | :30:13. | :30:16. | |
language is entirely to do with the politics of whether you regard this | :30:16. | :30:23. | |
as unfair. If you describe the policy which never it fits into a | :30:23. | :30:33. | |
:30:33. | :30:36. | ||
TV graphic or sound bite. Led to go Thank you, Mr Speaker. This morning | :30:36. | :30:39. | |
I had meetings with ministerial colleagues and others, and I shall | :30:39. | :30:47. | |
have further such meetings later today. Can my right honourable | :30:47. | :30:50. | |
friend confirm that the fall in youth unemployment figures is the | :30:50. | :30:57. | |
largest since records began? And will he meet with me to discuss how | :30:57. | :31:00. | |
employment opportunities in Tamworth, including youth | :31:00. | :31:04. | |
employment, can be promoted still further? | :31:04. | :31:08. | |
I would be delighted to meet with my honourable friend to discuss the | :31:09. | :31:12. | |
business situation in Tamworth, but he is absolutely right. This | :31:12. | :31:16. | |
morning's figures show the largest quarterly fall in youth | :31:16. | :31:21. | |
unemployment on record. 72,000 fewer people unemployed this | :31:21. | :31:26. | |
quarter. There is no room for complacency, still far too many | :31:26. | :31:29. | |
people long-term unemployed, but in these figures we can see 40,000 | :31:29. | :31:35. | |
more people in work, they can seize up, unemployment down by 82,000, | :31:35. | :31:40. | |
and the claimant count down. Over 1 million extra private sector jobs | :31:40. | :31:50. | |
:31:50. | :31:51. | ||
under this government. Mr Speaker... Mr Speaker... Mr | :31:51. | :31:56. | |
Speaker, today's fall in unemployment and rising employment | :31:56. | :32:04. | |
is welcome. Part of the challenge remains the stubbornly high level | :32:04. | :32:08. | |
of long-term unemployment. Does the Prime Minister agree that this | :32:08. | :32:14. | |
remains a fundamental importance, for the country as a whole? I do | :32:14. | :32:18. | |
agree, and as I mentioned in my first dancer, long-term | :32:18. | :32:22. | |
unemployment remains stubbornly high. The good news is that long- | :32:22. | :32:27. | |
term youth unemployment is down by 10,000 this quarter, so that is | :32:27. | :32:30. | |
encouraging. Long-term unemployment for others is still a problem, | :32:30. | :32:35. | |
which is why the work programme and getting the work programme right is | :32:35. | :32:44. | |
so important. Clearly there is more to do. He said on 18th January, | :32:44. | :32:48. | |
unemployment will get worse not better. Perhaps he would like to | :32:48. | :32:54. | |
withdraw that. Mr Speaker, I am glad the Prime Minister recognises | :32:54. | :32:58. | |
that long-term unemployment is still a challenge. I want to ask | :32:58. | :33:02. | |
him about the people who were doing the right thing in finding work. In | :33:02. | :33:05. | |
his Autumn Statement, the Chancellor decided to cut tax | :33:05. | :33:09. | |
credits and benefits, and he said it was the people with the curtains | :33:09. | :33:12. | |
drawn who would be affected. Can the Prime Minister tell us how many | :33:12. | :33:21. | |
of those hit actually in work. fact is this, that welfare needs to | :33:21. | :33:27. | |
be controlled, and everyone who was on tax credits will be affected by | :33:27. | :33:32. | |
these changes, because we have to get on top of the welfare bill. | :33:32. | :33:36. | |
That is why we are restricting the increase on out-of-work benefits, | :33:36. | :33:40. | |
and it is also the reason why we are restricting in-work benefits. | :33:40. | :33:45. | |
But what we have also done is increase the personal allowance, | :33:45. | :33:48. | |
because on this side of the house, we believe in cutting people's | :33:48. | :33:57. | |
taxes when they are in work. He is raising the taxes of people in work, | :33:57. | :34:02. | |
and he didn't answer the question. The answer is, despite the | :34:02. | :34:09. | |
impression given by the Chancellor of the us Cheka, over 60% of those | :34:09. | :34:13. | |
affected a Ren work -- the Chancellor of the Exchequer. It is | :34:13. | :34:18. | |
the factory work on a night shift. It is the cleaner who cleans the | :34:18. | :34:21. | |
Chancellor's office while his curtains are still drawn and he is | :34:21. | :34:28. | |
still in bed! The chancellor calls them scroungers. What does the | :34:28. | :34:33. | |
Prime Minister call them? He just said that we are not cutting taxes | :34:33. | :34:38. | |
for people in work. Someone who is on the minimum wage and works full- | :34:38. | :34:46. | |
time will see their income tax bill cut by 1 1/2 under this Government. | :34:46. | :34:52. | |
-- Cat by a half. This Government will say to working people, you can | :34:52. | :34:57. | |
earn another �3,000 before you even start paying income tax. That is | :34:57. | :35:02. | |
why we have taken 2 million people out of tax altogether. He should be | :35:02. | :35:06. | |
welcoming that. This is the party for people who work. His is the | :35:06. | :35:14. | |
party for unlimited welfare. course, he is just wrong on the | :35:14. | :35:18. | |
detail. The Institute for Fiscal Studies table says quite clearly | :35:18. | :35:24. | |
that, on average, working families are �534 a year worse off as a | :35:24. | :35:30. | |
result of his measures. I notice he wants to get away from what the | :35:30. | :35:33. | |
Chancellor of the Exchequer said last week, and we know what the | :35:33. | :35:40. | |
Chancellor was trying to do. He was trying to play divide and rule. He | :35:40. | :35:48. | |
said his changes, and I quote, "were for people living a life on | :35:48. | :35:53. | |
benefits, still asleep while their neighbours go out to work." but it | :35:53. | :36:00. | |
turns out it just wasn't true. It is a tax on strivers. Will the | :36:00. | :36:03. | |
Prime Minister now admit that the Chancellor got it wrong and the | :36:03. | :36:10. | |
majority of people hit are working people? He says that we haven't got | :36:10. | :36:17. | |
the detail right. We know his approach to detail is to take a | :36:17. | :36:23. | |
2000 page report and accepted without reading it! That is his | :36:23. | :36:27. | |
approach to detail. I am surprised the shadow chancellor is shouting | :36:27. | :36:37. | |
:36:37. | :36:37. | ||
again. We learned last week, like bullies all over the world, he can | :36:38. | :36:47. | |
:36:48. | :37:03. | ||
Order, order! I want to hear the Prime Minister's answer. Order! | :37:03. | :37:11. | |
Let's hear it. Specifically answer the leader of the opposition's | :37:11. | :37:16. | |
question. He mentioned the Institute for Fiscal Studies figure. | :37:16. | :37:20. | |
They do not include the personal allowance increase put through in | :37:20. | :37:25. | |
the Budget. They do not include the Universal Credit changes which will | :37:25. | :37:31. | |
help the working poor. Under this government, we are lifting the | :37:31. | :37:35. | |
personal allowance, taking millions out of tax, standing up for those | :37:35. | :37:40. | |
who work. He only stand up for those who claim. I must say, Mr | :37:40. | :37:45. | |
Speaker, I have heard everything when the boy from the Bullingdon | :37:45. | :37:54. | |
Club lectures people on bullying. Absolutely extraordinary. Have you | :37:54. | :38:04. | |
:38:04. | :38:09. | ||
He doesn't want to talk about the fact, but let's give him another | :38:09. | :38:14. | |
one. He is hitting working families, and the richest people in our | :38:14. | :38:20. | |
society will be getting a massive tax cuts next April. An average of | :38:20. | :38:26. | |
�107,000 each for people earning over a million pounds. Mr Speaker, | :38:26. | :38:28. | |
is the prime minister the only person left in the country Rue | :38:28. | :38:32. | |
cannot see the fundamental injustice of giving huge tax cuts | :38:32. | :38:37. | |
to the richest while punishing those in work on the lowest pay? | :38:37. | :38:41. | |
The tax rate for the richest under this government will be higher in | :38:41. | :38:46. | |
every year than it was for any year when he was in government. He | :38:46. | :38:49. | |
obviously has a short memory, because I explained to him last | :38:49. | :38:54. | |
week that under his plans for the 50p tax rate, millionaires paid �7 | :38:54. | :38:59. | |
billion less in tax than they did previously. The point of raising | :38:59. | :39:04. | |
taxes is to pay for public services. We are raising more money for the | :39:04. | :39:08. | |
rich, but where he is really so profoundly wrong is the choice that | :39:08. | :39:13. | |
he has decided to make. Because the facts are these: Over the last five | :39:13. | :39:18. | |
years, people in work have seen their incomes go up by 10%. People | :39:19. | :39:23. | |
out of work have seen their income go up by 20%. At a time when people | :39:23. | :39:27. | |
accept a pay freeze, we should not be increasing benefits. And yet | :39:27. | :39:32. | |
that is what he wants to do. A party that is serious about | :39:32. | :39:35. | |
controlling welfare isn't serious about controlling the deficit | :39:35. | :39:41. | |
either. From the first part of his answer, he is claiming to be Robin | :39:41. | :39:46. | |
Herd. I don't think that is going to work. He is not taking from the | :39:46. | :39:50. | |
richest in giving to everybody else. And didn't the business Secretary | :39:50. | :39:56. | |
give it away? This is what he said: "what happened was some of their | :39:56. | :40:02. | |
donors, very wealthy people, stamped their feet. So they | :40:02. | :40:08. | |
scrapped the mansion tax and went ahead with a 50p tax cut." Mr | :40:08. | :40:11. | |
Speaker, they look after their friends, the people on their | :40:11. | :40:16. | |
Christmas card list. Any well, they hit people who they never meet and | :40:16. | :40:23. | |
whose lives they will never understand. His donors put him when | :40:23. | :40:28. | |
he is, pay him every year, determine his policies. But it is | :40:28. | :40:34. | |
perfectly clear, Mr Speaker, what the Labour Party's choice is. Their | :40:34. | :40:38. | |
choice is more benefits paid for my more borrowing. They should listen | :40:38. | :40:46. | |
to the Labour trade minister who said this: "you know what you call | :40:46. | :40:50. | |
a system of government way you say, oh, we're in trouble, we will go | :40:50. | :40:55. | |
and borrow low then give it to people. It is called Greece. Close | :40:55. | :41:05. | |
:41:05. | :41:09. | ||
they are not serious about the Thank you, Mr Speaker. Will the | :41:09. | :41:13. | |
Prime Minister join me, and I am sure, the whole house, in sending | :41:13. | :41:17. | |
our deepest sympathies and condolences to nurse Jacintha | :41:17. | :41:24. | |
Saldanha who died this week. Does anybody wishing to support the | :41:24. | :41:28. | |
family by donating to the King Edward VII hospital fund, and | :41:28. | :41:32. | |
urging the press to preserve the privacy of this family. I am sure | :41:32. | :41:35. | |
the whole house and indeed the whole country will join the | :41:35. | :41:39. | |
honourable lady and join me in paying tribute to this nurse, and | :41:39. | :41:43. | |
giving more our sympathies and condolences to her family. She | :41:43. | :41:47. | |
clearly loved her job, cared deeply about the health of her patients, | :41:47. | :41:51. | |
and what happened is a tragedy. There will be many lessons to be | :41:51. | :41:55. | |
learned, and that echo what she said about the press keeping their | :41:55. | :42:05. | |
:42:05. | :42:08. | ||
distance and allowing his family Is the prime minister still | :42:08. | :42:14. | |
intending to introduce the snoopers charter, euphemistically known as | :42:14. | :42:19. | |
the communications and data Bill? Does he realise that he will be | :42:19. | :42:26. | |
spying, his government, on more people in Britain than even all the | :42:26. | :42:31. | |
press barons put together? Where did he get this advice and idea | :42:31. | :42:41. | |
:42:41. | :42:42. | ||
from? Was it down at Wapping? Was it his friends down there? Tony? | :42:42. | :42:52. | |
I really believe on this issue the Honourable Gentleman is wrong. This | :42:52. | :42:58. | |
is an important issue, and I feel is very strongly. As Prime Minister, | :42:58. | :43:01. | |
you have to take responsibility first and foremost for national | :43:01. | :43:08. | |
security and people's safety. Data communications, this is not the | :43:08. | :43:12. | |
content of a phone call, it is the fact a phone call took place, is | :43:12. | :43:16. | |
used in every single terrorist case and almost every single serious | :43:16. | :43:21. | |
crime case. The question in front of a house of Commons and indeed | :43:21. | :43:24. | |
the House of Lords is simply this: Because we currently have that data | :43:24. | :43:28. | |
for fixed and mobile telephony, what are we going to do as | :43:28. | :43:32. | |
Telephony increasingly moves over the internet? We can stand here and | :43:33. | :43:38. | |
do-nothing and not update the law. The consequence will be fewer | :43:38. | :43:42. | |
crimes solved, few were terrorists brought to justice. I do not want | :43:42. | :43:46. | |
to be the prime minister who puts this country into that position. | :43:46. | :43:52. | |
The Government's proposals on judicial review conflict with | :43:52. | :43:56. | |
article 29 of Magna Carter 1297. Does the Government proposed the | :43:56. | :44:06. | |
:44:06. | :44:09. | ||
We don't intend that, but I am sure that he would understand... Order! | :44:09. | :44:15. | |
Order! I would like to hear this. The point we are making is that the | :44:15. | :44:19. | |
extent of judicial review has massively increased in recent years, | :44:19. | :44:25. | |
and we think that there is an need for her recent rules to extend the | :44:25. | :44:28. | |
costs of judicial review so that the costs are covered. Then we can | :44:28. | :44:31. | |
maintain access to justice, but speed up the wheels of government a | :44:31. | :44:36. | |
little. Will the Prime Minister answer the | :44:36. | :44:40. | |
question he was asked three times by my Right Honourable Friend, and | :44:40. | :44:44. | |
dodged a few moments ago? Willie confirm the majority of households | :44:44. | :44:50. | |
will be hit by the real-terms cuts to benefits and tax credits are | :44:50. | :44:57. | |
working household? The point I made is bigger than that. Everyone on | :44:57. | :45:01. | |
working tax credits will be affected by the fact we are only | :45:01. | :45:06. | |
increasing them by 1%. But the fact is we have to control welfare to | :45:06. | :45:10. | |
deal with the massive deficit we were left by the party opposite, | :45:10. | :45:14. | |
and there is a choice in politics. You could either control welfare | :45:14. | :45:19. | |
bills, or you can say no to a welfare cap, no to the controller | :45:19. | :45:25. | |
of welfare, borrow, build a power deficit and put us back where we | :45:25. | :45:32. | |
came from. At the Liaison Committee yesterday, the Prime Minister began | :45:32. | :45:36. | |
by saying that the Government would accept crucial Lords amendments to | :45:36. | :45:41. | |
make the justice and security bill acceptable on secret courts. But he | :45:41. | :45:45. | |
ended the session by appearing to say that he wouldn't accept those | :45:45. | :45:55. | |
:45:55. | :45:55. | ||
amendments. Could you clarify which We want this to pass through | :45:55. | :45:58. | |
Parliament, having listened to the excellent points through the House | :45:58. | :46:05. | |
of Lords, I think the Leader of the Opposition is catching the disease | :46:05. | :46:07. | |
of the Shadow Chancellor of not being able to keep his mouth shut | :46:07. | :46:13. | |
for longer than five seconds. We will listen very carefully. The | :46:13. | :46:21. | |
fundamental choice is to make sure that these proceedings are | :46:21. | :46:31. | |
:46:31. | :46:31. | ||
available to judges and they should make a decision. The Environment | :46:31. | :46:36. | |
Secretary this week described went to a bines as any appropriate | :46:36. | :46:40. | |
technology which matured in the Middle Ages. Does he agree? Why | :46:40. | :46:45. | |
not? The we are making serious investments in that renewable | :46:45. | :46:52. | |
energy. We have set up a subsidy which stretches the tomb 2017 and | :46:52. | :46:56. | |
that's why the renewable Energy capacity of this country has | :46:56. | :47:01. | |
actually doubled in the last two years under this Government. Will | :47:01. | :47:05. | |
he agree with me that not only has this Government had to deal with | :47:05. | :47:10. | |
the catastrophic budget deficit which we inherited it from the | :47:10. | :47:16. | |
former prime minister but also, as the figures reveal today, a tidal | :47:16. | :47:20. | |
wave of emigration deliberately fostered by the Labour government | :47:20. | :47:24. | |
concentrating on putting these two issues right are the most important | :47:24. | :47:27. | |
issues facing this government for security for the people of this | :47:27. | :47:33. | |
country? He makes an important point which is emigration was out | :47:33. | :47:38. | |
of control under the last government. Net migration ran at | :47:38. | :47:43. | |
over 200,000 a year, 2 million across a decade. Under sensible | :47:43. | :47:48. | |
controls we have put in place, it's fallen by a quarter in recent years | :47:48. | :47:53. | |
also what is interesting about this, you can have proper control of | :47:53. | :47:57. | |
immigration while also saying to the world other universities are | :47:57. | :48:02. | |
open to foreign students to come and study here, and as long as they | :48:02. | :48:05. | |
have an English language qualification and a degree place in | :48:05. | :48:09. | |
university, there's no limits on the numbers which can come. | :48:10. | :48:13. | |
Controlling immigration, but making sure the best and brightest come to | :48:13. | :48:20. | |
Britain. Iceland had a huge economic difficulties and rejected | :48:20. | :48:25. | |
austerity and has seen a recovery driven by domestic demand. | :48:25. | :48:35. | |
:48:35. | :48:35. | ||
Unemployment is 2.4% lower than the UK. Those with children receive the | :48:35. | :48:41. | |
most support in Iceland. Will he congratulate them on working hard | :48:41. | :48:47. | |
to turn things around and does he think is anything he can learn from | :48:47. | :48:53. | |
Iceland? I think if the case for an independent Scotland is a makers | :48:53. | :48:56. | |
more like Iceland, I'm not sure that will recommend itself to the | :48:56. | :49:01. | |
voters. Britain and Iceland have very good relations and I will make | :49:01. | :49:08. | |
sure it remains to be the case of. Can I welcome the fall in youth | :49:08. | :49:12. | |
unemployment in Hastings, where it has fallen steadily for the past | :49:12. | :49:20. | |
nine months and is at its lowest since May 2010. Will he consider | :49:20. | :49:25. | |
the continuation of youth contracts are so that can continue? | :49:25. | :49:29. | |
grateful for her point. We will continue with the apprenticeships | :49:29. | :49:33. | |
which have reached over one million under this government but also with | :49:33. | :49:36. | |
the youth contract and work experience because we are seeing | :49:36. | :49:40. | |
large numbers of people going into work experience coming off benefits, | :49:40. | :49:47. | |
finding a job and finding it's a very good start to a working career. | :49:47. | :49:52. | |
On the day unemployment in Scotland show the largest fall at in four | :49:52. | :49:58. | |
years, it is the as shocked as I am by reports in the newspapers that | :49:58. | :50:03. | |
some of JobCentre managers were actively encouraging employers to | :50:03. | :50:09. | |
convert paid vacancies in to unpaid work experience placements to | :50:09. | :50:14. | |
satisfy dw p targets? Will he condemned this practice and ensure | :50:14. | :50:20. | |
it ceases immediately? He makes an important point. We want work- | :50:20. | :50:23. | |
experience places to be additional places, encouraging more people to | :50:23. | :50:28. | |
get appealing for work so they have a chance of getting a job but it's | :50:28. | :50:33. | |
good he welcomes the fact employment in Scotland as increased | :50:33. | :50:38. | |
27,000 since the election and unemployment has fallen by 19,000 | :50:38. | :50:44. | |
this quarter, so we are making progress. Would the Prime Minister | :50:44. | :50:48. | |
join me in welcoming the progress that has been made around the | :50:48. | :50:54. | |
country since the autism Act 2009 in supporting adults with autism? | :50:54. | :50:58. | |
And following the recent National Audit Office report, would he join | :50:58. | :51:02. | |
me in encouraging his ministerial colleagues and local authorities | :51:02. | :51:07. | |
across the country to accelerate his progress next year when the | :51:07. | :51:15. | |
adult autism strategy is due to be reviewed? May I pay tribute to my | :51:15. | :51:19. | |
friend who was instrumental in getting a landmark act on to the | :51:19. | :51:24. | |
statute books. The impact of it continues right up to this day and | :51:24. | :51:29. | |
beyond. We want all adults living with autism to live recording lives | :51:29. | :51:34. | |
within a society which accepts them up. The review of the strategy is | :51:34. | :51:39. | |
coming up next year between March and October. It is vital it is a | :51:39. | :51:42. | |
cost government at but and I will make sure this is dealt with in a | :51:42. | :51:49. | |
co-ordinated way. The Green Investment Bank was due to be given | :51:49. | :51:54. | |
new borrowing powers in three years' time. But, in a few other | :51:54. | :52:00. | |
chances abject failure to meet that borrowing target, because it was | :52:00. | :52:02. | |
predicated on meeting those borrowing targets set by the | :52:02. | :52:08. | |
Government, is he still committed to giving borrowing powers to the | :52:08. | :52:14. | |
Green Investment Bank and, if so, when? This government has set up a | :52:14. | :52:16. | |
Green Investment Bank within two years whereas the party opposite | :52:16. | :52:24. | |
did nothing about this for 13 years. Even at a time of fiscal difficulty, | :52:24. | :52:29. | |
because of the mess we were left in, we put �3 billion into this, so | :52:29. | :52:33. | |
right now it doesn't need to borrow because it has the money to invest | :52:33. | :52:38. | |
and I think what is needed is the equity risk finance and that's | :52:38. | :52:44. | |
exactly what the Green Investment Bank will provide. He goes to | :52:44. | :52:54. | |
:52:54. | :52:57. | ||
summer tomorrow. Has he noticed -- a summit. Has he noticed that the | :52:57. | :53:02. | |
European Parliament is a parliament for the EU ensuring democratic | :53:02. | :53:06. | |
legitimacy for the EU? Does he agree with this? What really say to | :53:06. | :53:12. | |
the other leaders when he goes to their summit tomorrow? I do agree | :53:12. | :53:19. | |
with him on this one. It is actually the national parliaments | :53:19. | :53:22. | |
would provide the real democratic legitimacy within the European | :53:22. | :53:26. | |
Union. When we are discussing banking union, it is to this House | :53:26. | :53:31. | |
that we should account. It is to this size that represents our tax | :53:31. | :53:35. | |
payers are that we should account and I always bear that in mind her | :53:35. | :53:41. | |
when I am negotiating as I will be tomorrow at the European Council. | :53:41. | :53:44. | |
Can the Prime Minister confirm the Autumn Statement revealed to the | :53:44. | :53:49. | |
Government is now borrowing to London �12 billion more than it | :53:49. | :53:59. | |
:53:59. | :54:03. | ||
previously planned to? -- to London �12 billion? -- �212 billion. The | :54:03. | :54:10. | |
party opposite was disappointed that borrowing would come down this | :54:10. | :54:16. | |
year but this is the fact. Prime Minister has rightly said we | :54:16. | :54:21. | |
are locked in a global economic race. Does he share my concern that, | :54:21. | :54:25. | |
having the highest aviation taxes and the world, makes it harder for | :54:25. | :54:30. | |
business to compete? And it increases the cost of living? Will | :54:30. | :54:38. | |
he ask the Treasury to conduct a full review? I very much understand | :54:38. | :54:44. | |
the point. Obviously, I get lobbied regularly by countries around the | :54:44. | :54:49. | |
world particularly Commonwealth countries about their passenger | :54:49. | :54:52. | |
duty also we don't have plans to commission a further research | :54:52. | :54:59. | |
because we have just complete -- completed a thorough consultation. | :54:59. | :55:08. | |
We have limited the rise of it until 2013 so the rates have only | :55:08. | :55:12. | |
increased by a �1 for the majority of passengers but I will bear in | :55:12. | :55:16. | |
mind very carefully what he says. The Autumn Statement did not | :55:16. | :55:20. | |
include a forecast of child poverty as a result of the policies | :55:20. | :55:25. | |
announced. Can he confirm it will be published soon? Could he tell | :55:25. | :55:29. | |
the House whether he really believes his policies will increase | :55:29. | :55:35. | |
or reduce child poverty in Islington? We want to see a lasting | :55:35. | :55:39. | |
reduction in child poverty and I think we need to have a policies | :55:39. | :55:42. | |
which address, not only whether people are just above or below the | :55:42. | :55:47. | |
poverty line, are but policies which address the causes of poverty. | :55:48. | :55:52. | |
What traps people into poverty? Of course, not enough money is part of | :55:52. | :55:56. | |
it, not enough jobs is another and that's why today's news on | :55:56. | :56:00. | |
unemployment is so welcomed but we need to look at all of the things | :56:00. | :56:05. | |
which trap people in unemployment which includes family breakdown, | :56:05. | :56:14. | |
drug abuse, alcohol abuse and unemployment. As he knows, Plymouth | :56:14. | :56:19. | |
is a global leader in the Marine Science Engineering Research. I | :56:19. | :56:24. | |
very much welcome the initiative by the Government to spend more money | :56:24. | :56:33. | |
on at the science base. Would he be willing to meet with me and | :56:34. | :56:37. | |
Plymouth members of Parliament and businesses, to discuss how they | :56:37. | :56:43. | |
could become involved in the small cities super broadband initiative | :56:43. | :56:46. | |
and will help us to rebalance our economy and attract private | :56:46. | :56:53. | |
investors? I'm a very happy to meet with him. I know he stands up | :56:53. | :56:57. | |
strongly for Plymouth a's economy. On the science budget, we made a | :56:57. | :57:01. | |
decision at the start of this government, to freeze the science | :57:01. | :57:05. | |
budget rather than cut it, and I'm sure that was the right answer and, | :57:05. | :57:11. | |
since then, on broadband, I will look carefully about what he says | :57:11. | :57:15. | |
about it. I'm sure he will be glad to know Devon and Somerset have | :57:15. | :57:20. | |
been allocated over �33 million it to deliver a super-fast broadband | :57:20. | :57:24. | |
and we're working hard to make sure those plans are on track because | :57:25. | :57:34. | |
:57:35. | :57:35. | ||
it's important for cities and rural areas, as well. The Prime Minister | :57:35. | :57:38. | |
and members of this House will be fully aware of the serious threat | :57:38. | :57:41. | |
posed to democracy by dissident republicans in Northern Ireland. | :57:41. | :57:46. | |
The police have stated there is evidence of loyalist paramilitary | :57:46. | :57:50. | |
involvement in some of the protests in Northern Ireland this week. It | :57:50. | :57:53. | |
included a murder attempt on police officers protecting my constituency | :57:53. | :57:58. | |
office. Will he not only condemned as reprehensible assault on | :57:58. | :58:02. | |
democracy from those who style themselves as loyal, and willing | :58:02. | :58:06. | |
agreed to meet with me and my colleagues, the justice minister | :58:06. | :58:13. | |
for Northern Ireland, to discuss the grave security situation? | :58:14. | :58:16. | |
absolutely join her in condemning the violence we have seen on the | :58:16. | :58:22. | |
streets of Belfast. In no way are these people being loyal or | :58:22. | :58:29. | |
standing up for being British for the violence is unjustified. I | :58:29. | :58:32. | |
agree completely with what he said about the attack on the police | :58:32. | :58:36. | |
officers. We should pay tribute to the work the Police Service of | :58:36. | :58:40. | |
Northern Ireland do. I know the whole House would like to express | :58:41. | :58:45. | |
our solidarity with the honourable lady and her colleagues who have | :58:45. | :58:49. | |
been intimidated in recent days and a ball is happy to meet with MPs | :58:49. | :58:54. | |
from Northern Ireland. But I am always happy to meet with MPs and | :58:54. | :59:01. | |
Northern Ireland. Will he congratulate my two young | :59:01. | :59:04. | |
entrepreneurs who have taken the initiative to start the Cornish | :59:04. | :59:13. | |
cheese company and a passion company in my constituency? Does he | :59:13. | :59:19. | |
agree this is just the sort of business initiative we need to see? | :59:19. | :59:24. | |
I'm delighted to John honourable lady in congratulating the | :59:24. | :59:29. | |
entrepreneurship -- joined the honourable lady in congratulating | :59:29. | :59:35. | |
the entrepreneurship. I'm looking forward to pasting that cheese. I | :59:35. | :59:40. | |
shouldn't maybe, because of my weight. The rate of start-up of a | :59:40. | :59:43. | |
new businesses in this country is at a record high and because we | :59:44. | :59:47. | |
need a rebalancing between the public and private sector, we need | :59:47. | :59:56. | |
this to continue. In opposition, the Prime Minister said he wanted | :59:56. | :59:59. | |
this government to be the most family a friendly government this | :59:59. | :00:03. | |
country had ever seen. Why is the cutting maternity pay for working | :00:03. | :00:09. | |
mothers? First of all,, what can honourable lady to the House of | :00:09. | :00:12. | |
Commons and congratulate hair on her recent a by-election a success? | :00:12. | :00:17. | |
We have had to take difficult decisions about welfare in and out | :00:17. | :00:23. | |
of work. So we put a cap on 1% of all the working benefits including | :00:23. | :00:29. | |
the one she mentions but, above all, on this issue, the right thing is | :00:29. | :00:33. | |
to cut the tax as a people in work rather than take more in taxes and | :00:33. | :00:37. | |
then redistributed through tax credits will stop we want to cut | :00:37. | :00:40. | |
taxes on those who work and that's what we are doing and there will be | :00:40. | :00:47. | |
more of it to come. Over the last five years, benefits have risen | :00:47. | :00:51. | |
twice as fast as salaries for that does he agree that whilst we have a | :00:51. | :00:55. | |
duty to the least well-off, it cannot be fair that people out of | :00:55. | :00:58. | |
work enjoy bigger increases in living standards than those who | :00:59. | :01:05. | |
work hard day and night to support themselves and their families? | :01:05. | :01:09. | |
put that extremely clearly. Many people in our country have seen a | :01:09. | :01:13. | |
pay freeze year after year after year. And yet welfare benefits have | :01:13. | :01:20. | |
gone up. So, in politics, we face a choice. Do we go on putting those | :01:20. | :01:24. | |
benefits up, which actually is not helping those people who are on the | :01:24. | :01:30. | |
pay freeze in work, or do we take a tough decision? We have taken a | :01:30. | :01:34. | |
tough decision. The only welfare minister Labour had called | :01:34. | :01:38. | |
honourable member for Birkenhead, said there approach simply is not | :01:38. | :01:46. | |
serious and once again, he is it right. May I congratulate the Prime | :01:46. | :01:50. | |
Minister and the UK government on following the lead of the Scottish | :01:50. | :01:55. | |
government and parliament in introducing equal marriage, minimum | :01:55. | :02:00. | |
pricing by alcohol and the smoking ban up previously pulled up given | :02:00. | :02:04. | |
that unemployment is now lower in Scotland and the rest of the UK, | :02:04. | :02:06. | |
will he follow the lead of the Scottish government by introducing | :02:06. | :02:16. | |
:02:16. | :02:18. | ||
a more cohesive measure for growth? There is an extra �300 million for | :02:18. | :02:22. | |
the Scottish government to spend and so it they want to spend that | :02:22. | :02:27. | |
on the shop already measures, they can, but I'm happy to say, when | :02:27. | :02:31. | |
good policies are introduced in any part of the UK, we all have the | :02:31. | :02:40. | |
opportunity to follow them. Statement. We'll return to that in | :02:40. | :02:50. | |
:02:50. | :02:50. | ||
a moment. We saw the new dividing line in British politics. The | :02:50. | :02:53. | |
uprating of benefits. The Government said they could only go | :02:53. | :02:58. | |
up by 1% in the next three years. Now opposed by the Labour Party. | :02:58. | :03:04. | |
There is a clear division there. It turned a little nasty. The Prime | :03:04. | :03:10. | |
Minister described Ed Balls as a bully. He's probably do not before. | :03:10. | :03:20. | |
:03:20. | :03:20. | ||
But he's probably done that before. He was asked whether he had wrecked | :03:20. | :03:30. | |
:03:30. | :03:34. | ||
If only we could all draw a shroud over what we did at university! | :03:34. | :03:41. | |
They have picked up on the debate. He was looking to me to make the | :03:41. | :03:51. | |
point! You couldn't afford a restaurant, could you? I was very | :03:51. | :03:58. | |
well behaved at university. Viewers also interested in the debate. The | :03:58. | :04:03. | |
benefits discussion. This from Jacqueline in Keynsham. I am tired | :04:03. | :04:07. | |
of being called a scrounger because I can no longer work. The | :04:07. | :04:10. | |
Chancellor and the Prime Minister going on about drawn blinds and | :04:10. | :04:14. | |
curtains is alienating a part of disabled society that has no choice | :04:14. | :04:21. | |
in the matter. This from Helen Manning: Ed Miliband's continued | :04:21. | :04:26. | |
reference to Sherpas not workers is so monotonous. He stands on the | :04:26. | :04:33. | |
side of benefit claimants. Michael firm: David Cameron always quotes | :04:33. | :04:37. | |
benefit claimants in percentages to make sure it sounds like people are | :04:37. | :04:42. | |
getting more. But it only just covers the price rises. And this | :04:42. | :04:47. | |
from Jeremy Clarke: Why aren't they are asking about the bank has yet | :04:47. | :04:54. | |
again? Nick, there was a factual argument we are trying to get to | :04:54. | :05:01. | |
the bottom of. The leader of the opposition said that if you only | :05:01. | :05:11. | |
:05:11. | :05:12. | ||
increase in work benefits by 1%, that is a cut in real terms. The | :05:12. | :05:16. | |
Prime Minister then said, that doesn't include this huge rise in | :05:16. | :05:19. | |
personal allowances, so that particularly people on lower | :05:19. | :05:22. | |
incomes will find that a huge chunk of their income won't be taxed at | :05:22. | :05:30. | |
all. On first sight, I thought they had both made mistakes, but I have | :05:30. | :05:34. | |
just check with the Treasury teams to see if they can provide some | :05:34. | :05:38. | |
information. Ed Miliband said that the Institute of Fiscal Studies has | :05:38. | :05:43. | |
said that the average loss, if you took into account everything, was | :05:43. | :05:47. | |
�533 for families. In fact, Labour's own press release | :05:47. | :05:52. | |
yesterday only applied to couples where only one person learns. The | :05:52. | :05:55. | |
Government is increasing personal tax allowance. If there are two of | :05:55. | :06:00. | |
you getting at, that obviously increases your income at the same | :06:00. | :06:07. | |
time as a cat in real benefits level is curbing it. Five and and | :06:07. | :06:13. | |
�34 is a figure that applies. The Prime Minister then claimed... | :06:13. | :06:18. | |
what about fuel duty and all the rest of it? The Prime Minister | :06:18. | :06:21. | |
claimed that this didn't include personal allowance, but I think it | :06:21. | :06:25. | |
did. It would be remarkable if the Institute of Fiscal Studies, trying | :06:25. | :06:29. | |
to do distributional analysis of the impact of all the changes that | :06:29. | :06:33. | |
have been introduced, given that the increase in personal allowances | :06:33. | :06:37. | |
one of the biggest and most expensive tax changes of all, I | :06:37. | :06:41. | |
would be amazed if they didn't include that. I think that is | :06:41. | :06:44. | |
absolutely right. So it is a question of what you include in the | :06:45. | :06:51. | |
calculation. You can see, in very simple terms, the Institute of | :06:51. | :06:58. | |
Fiscal Studies produced tables the day after important statements. How | :06:58. | :07:02. | |
you win the bottom 10th, are you when the top 10th? If you are in | :07:02. | :07:09. | |
the bottom five, below the average, you lose. The people just above, | :07:09. | :07:12. | |
some of them again as a result of the personal tax allowance, of | :07:12. | :07:17. | |
which counteracts that cap in the benefit levels. And the people at | :07:17. | :07:21. | |
the very top lose because there was a different measure for pension | :07:21. | :07:26. | |
taxes. But they lose because of a whole range of other steps as well, | :07:26. | :07:30. | |
that the coalition government has taken. But in a sense what this was | :07:30. | :07:34. | |
proving is partly what I was saying before, which is that language is | :07:34. | :07:39. | |
crucial. That a viewer who roti in and said, and sick of his language. | :07:39. | :07:42. | |
But we are not talking about benefits for the disabled, although | :07:43. | :07:47. | |
I know it does affect employment support allowance, which some | :07:47. | :07:53. | |
people who are disabled depend upon. People who are officially | :07:53. | :07:59. | |
designated unable to work are not affected. But this language of are | :07:59. | :08:09. | |
:08:09. | :08:10. | ||
you talking about a cut pre-tax, a Shericka Orest driver, the details | :08:10. | :08:13. | |
are complicated. Both sides are competing for language that works | :08:13. | :08:21. | |
for them. Labour and now opposed for both the 1% up rate for both | :08:21. | :08:26. | |
out of work and in-work benefits, correct? We are opposed to the | :08:26. | :08:30. | |
package. If they maintain this huge tax cuts for people earning | :08:30. | :08:40. | |
:08:40. | :08:40. | ||
millions of pounds... The tax cut for the very rich. If they maintain | :08:40. | :08:44. | |
that at the same time they are putting in a 1% cap, it is | :08:44. | :08:49. | |
something we will vote against. This is a complicated area. I think | :08:49. | :08:54. | |
the Chancellor committed a huge strategic error first of all in | :08:54. | :08:59. | |
trying to do a divide and rule of the nation, and second of all | :08:59. | :09:04. | |
trying to do a divide and rule between the so-called strivers and | :09:04. | :09:12. | |
shirkers. Even if you take the argument that there are people in | :09:12. | :09:17. | |
receipt of benefit, six out of 10 families affected by this being | :09:17. | :09:21. | |
working families. But the issue of the people who are out of work, I | :09:21. | :09:28. | |
look at the people I come across in my constituency, in my constituency | :09:28. | :09:34. | |
frequently I meet young people in families who have come back from | :09:34. | :09:39. | |
university, graduated from college, and cannot find work at the moment. | :09:39. | :09:42. | |
They are doing a constant stream of work experience placements, | :09:43. | :09:49. | |
internships. And in terms of there being this division, the party of | :09:49. | :09:57. | |
strivers or shirkers. Maintaining this massive tax cut for the top 1%, | :09:57. | :10:02. | |
if there is any division, you have a party of the 1% and a party of | :10:02. | :10:08. | |
99%, everybody else. That is the real division here. What do you say | :10:08. | :10:14. | |
to that? What I was struck by was a couple of things. I was pleased to | :10:14. | :10:18. | |
see Ed Miliband open his account by welcoming the very good employment | :10:18. | :10:24. | |
figures. I think he did it through gritted teeth, but it is good but | :10:24. | :10:29. | |
the opposition can welcome what is clearly good news. It is not | :10:30. | :10:36. | |
through gritted teeth. I have 15 people chasing every job vacancy in | :10:36. | :10:43. | |
my constituency. So when I say these figures are will come, I mean | :10:43. | :10:49. | |
it. We're so used to the negative stuff, it was welcome to hear him | :10:49. | :10:55. | |
welcome that. But you are right, that reflected the big dividing | :10:55. | :10:59. | |
line which will run through to the next general election. It is not | :10:59. | :11:04. | |
just about this specific package. This is now the third successive | :11:04. | :11:08. | |
opportunity that Labour have had to embrace some form of welfare reform, | :11:08. | :11:16. | |
and they are clearly not. Because we don't want to give the top 1% a | :11:16. | :11:21. | |
�107,000 tax cut. That is what you are putting through at the same | :11:21. | :11:28. | |
time. At the same time, that you were implementing these cuts, barer | :11:28. | :11:31. | |
thousands of families who are suffering because of what you were | :11:32. | :11:35. | |
doing, enjoyed giving people early millions of pounds a tax cut in the | :11:35. | :11:45. | |
:11:45. | :11:46. | ||
order of �107,000. That is not fair. We can have a ding-dong about that. | :11:46. | :11:50. | |
A think most people watching would be turned off by that exchange, as | :11:50. | :11:55. | |
they are by most of these arguments. What is your message to families in | :11:55. | :11:59. | |
your constituency who will be affected by this, then? The rich | :11:59. | :12:03. | |
are going to be paying a much greater share of the total tax bill | :12:03. | :12:07. | |
than they did in any year when you were in power. That matters to | :12:07. | :12:13. | |
people. And the Prime Minister is also right in that you cannot argue | :12:13. | :12:19. | |
with the fact that we are taking a lot of people out of tax. Our | :12:19. | :12:24. | |
message to working families is we are on your side. We are cutting | :12:24. | :12:28. | |
taxes. We are trying to reduce the cost of living for you. We are | :12:28. | :12:33. | |
busting a gut to try to get the economy going. But we will reform | :12:33. | :12:38. | |
the welfare system because we think the public are above that, because | :12:38. | :12:42. | |
they think it is unsustainable. They don't think it is fair that if | :12:42. | :12:47. | |
people in work are seeing salary increases less than the increase in | :12:47. | :12:53. | |
benefits for people out of work. knew these are complicated, but | :12:53. | :12:58. | |
people care. The �534 average loss that Ed Miliband talked about that | :12:58. | :13:02. | |
is only for one-earner couples. And it does include the latest increase | :13:02. | :13:07. | |
in personal tax allowance. What the Treasury say is, yes, it doesn't | :13:07. | :13:15. | |
include the previously announced increase. That comes in this April. | :13:15. | :13:18. | |
So if you look at the measures that were announced last week, and them | :13:18. | :13:28. | |
:13:28. | :13:30. | ||
alone, you get your 500 and and �84 It is the dividing line, and I want | :13:30. | :13:37. | |
to step back and give people a flavour of the argument. You always | :13:37. | :13:42. | |
take the tough argument! Nick is going to stay with us. The Prime | :13:42. | :13:47. | |
Minister has been making a statement about the murder of the | :13:47. | :13:52. | |
Belfast solicitor Pat Finucane in 1989. It was one of the more | :13:52. | :13:57. | |
controversial killings of the Troubles in Northern Ireland. | :13:57. | :14:01. | |
should be in no doubt that this report makes extremely difficult | :14:01. | :14:07. | |
reading. It sets out the extent of collusion in areas such as | :14:07. | :14:13. | |
identifying, targeting and murdering Mr Finucane, supplying a | :14:13. | :14:18. | |
weapon and facilitating its later disappearance, and deliberately | :14:18. | :14:22. | |
obstructing subsequent investigations. The report also | :14:22. | :14:26. | |
answers questions about how high up the collusion went, including the | :14:26. | :14:30. | |
role of ministers at the time. Sir Desmond is satisfied that there was | :14:30. | :14:38. | |
not, and I quote, "and overarching state conspiracy to murder Pat | :14:38. | :14:42. | |
Finucane". But while he rejects conspiracy, he does find, quite | :14:42. | :14:48. | |
frankly, shocking levels of state collusion. Most importantly, Sir | :14:48. | :14:52. | |
Desmond says he is "left in significant doubt as to whether | :14:52. | :14:56. | |
Patrick Finucane would have been murdered by the Ulster Defence | :14:57. | :14:59. | |
Association in February 1989 had it not been for the different strands | :14:59. | :15:05. | |
of involvement by elements of the state". Part of the Prime | :15:05. | :15:10. | |
Minister's statement there on Pat Finucane. Nick, we know from | :15:10. | :15:13. | |
previous inquiries that the state colluded in the murder of this | :15:13. | :15:18. | |
Belfast solicitor. We know it was a murder witnessed by his wife and | :15:19. | :15:23. | |
three children. What have we learned today that we didn't know? | :15:23. | :15:27. | |
I thought that phrase we heard was important, that phrase about | :15:27. | :15:30. | |
significant doubt. What he is saying is that Pat Finucane could | :15:30. | :15:34. | |
have been alive today if it hadn't been for the decision of some in | :15:34. | :15:38. | |
the security services of Northern Ireland to collude in his murder. | :15:38. | :15:42. | |
It wasn't just, that he was going to be murdered anyway and they | :15:42. | :15:46. | |
happened to know about it and didn't blow the whistle. But it | :15:46. | :15:50. | |
appears to be that the statement says he could have survived were it | :15:50. | :15:54. | |
not for a decision of someone within the state, within the | :15:54. | :15:59. | |
security services, to effectively end his life because he was seen as | :15:59. | :16:05. | |
sympathetic to the IRA. That is extraordinarily serious. It is | :16:05. | :16:08. | |
interesting that the Prime Minister wants to draw this distinction | :16:08. | :16:13. | |
between collusion and conspiracy. I think he is trying to defend the | :16:13. | :16:16. | |
upper reaches of politics and the upper reaches of Whitehall and the | :16:16. | :16:19. | |
civil service in Northern Ireland at the time from saying that they | :16:19. | :16:25. | |
sat at a desk, as it were, and said, it is time to eliminate this man. | :16:25. | :16:29. | |
Clearly that is why he is saying no conspiracy. But collusion means | :16:29. | :16:37. | |
that there were people, and not just one or two, who knew, were | :16:37. | :16:47. | |
:16:47. | :16:47. | ||
involved in the murder of a man What is the official position that | :16:47. | :16:55. | |
the British state, they knew this man was going to be killed by | :16:55. | :17:02. | |
terrorists, on the other side and did nothing to stop it? Or of the | :17:02. | :17:05. | |
British state worked with terrorists on the other side to | :17:05. | :17:15. | |
help kill him? I used to work at Panorama one are made an award- | :17:15. | :17:19. | |
winning film about Ryan Nelson, double agent, and he was within | :17:19. | :17:24. | |
loyalist terrorism but being run by the security services. In a sense, | :17:24. | :17:28. | |
he not only new the targets that the terrorists were choosing but | :17:28. | :17:35. | |
was involved, I think, in advising her they might want to target so | :17:35. | :17:37. | |
someone at the heart of the organisation was working for the | :17:37. | :17:43. | |
British state. That's how serious it was. It wasn't seriously not | :17:43. | :17:48. | |
bothering. Looking the other way. And the scandal which came out | :17:48. | :17:52. | |
thanks to that programme, and later in more detail, into what Brian | :17:53. | :17:58. | |
Nelson did, is at the heart of this. We now know that clearly does | :17:58. | :18:04. | |
report got further than previous inquiries. The Labour Party back | :18:04. | :18:10. | |
the family in a saying it's not enough, a full inquiry, in which | :18:10. | :18:14. | |
everything is made public is needed force up Tony Blair promised in at | :18:14. | :18:18. | |
2001 if they judge appointed London and Dublin and there was a case to | :18:18. | :18:24. | |
answer, a public inquiry into his death would be held. No public | :18:24. | :18:29. | |
inquiry under Labour was ever held. Why not? We couldn't come to an | :18:29. | :18:36. | |
agreement with the family under the auspices under which the inquiry | :18:36. | :18:42. | |
would take place. By the time we left government, they changed their | :18:42. | :18:48. | |
position and they were trying to bind a framework for an inquiry | :18:48. | :18:53. | |
which would work for the family. What did the Prime Minister say he | :18:53. | :18:56. | |
was going to do as a result of these findings? Has he said is | :18:57. | :19:04. | |
going to be a public inquiry? have also been on air! You have got | :19:04. | :19:09. | |
your iPad telling you. He says the review finds actions by employees | :19:09. | :19:14. | |
of the state actively facilitated the killing, said the Prime | :19:14. | :19:19. | |
Minister. The language is quite careful. He said the review found a | :19:19. | :19:22. | |
relentless effort to refute the ends of justice after the killing | :19:22. | :19:27. | |
and found army officials provided the MoD but highly misleading and | :19:27. | :19:32. | |
inaccurate information. That is deeply shocking. We understand | :19:32. | :19:38. | |
there will be no public inquiry. think the family will be dismayed | :19:38. | :19:45. | |
at that it. If you were just heard that statement. Particularly given | :19:45. | :19:52. | |
the point of that and Nick made. All the family will know is that, | :19:52. | :19:58. | |
were it not for the actions of people involved with the state, he | :19:58. | :20:03. | |
could still be there today. I need a quick reaction from you. We are | :20:03. | :20:07. | |
being told that the Prime Minister's statement is that this | :20:07. | :20:12. | |
to be no public inquiry also why not? We have and listen to the | :20:12. | :20:16. | |
statement now. I have not read the report. -- we have not listen to | :20:16. | :20:24. | |
the statement now. The key thing is the family. Did the Prime Minister | :20:24. | :20:32. | |
apologise? He said, I'm deeply sorry. We should be clear about the | :20:32. | :20:36. | |
distinction. This report which has revealed quite a good deal and has | :20:36. | :20:40. | |
shocked the Prime Minister and many other people, this was about | :20:40. | :20:44. | |
reviewing existing evidence. The call for a public inquiry was that | :20:44. | :20:48. | |
a further evidence could be unearthed and it could be done in | :20:48. | :20:51. | |
public and the family could see for themselves the evidence rather than | :20:51. | :20:54. | |
having to rely on someone they would regard as an agent of the | :20:54. | :21:00. | |
British state to draw a conclusion on the actions. There will be lots | :21:00. | :21:04. | |
more on the BBC News Channel. Thank you for being with us today pull | :21:04. | :21:08. | |
that we need to move on. Now, it has been described as David | :21:08. | :21:10. | |
Cameron's Clause 4 moment. Yesterday, a Conservative Culture | :21:10. | :21:13. | |
Secretary, stood up in the House of Commons and spelt out the | :21:13. | :21:16. | |
government's plans to give gay people the right to marry. We'll be | :21:16. | :21:19. | |
discussing those plans in a moment. But first, here's actor, Simon | :21:19. | :21:29. | |
:21:29. | :21:41. | ||
Callow, out on the streets of Soho When I was born in 1949, gay men | :21:41. | :21:45. | |
and women lead secret lives. They lived in fear of arrest and | :21:45. | :21:53. | |
imprisonment. But gay people started to emerge in the Senate | :21:53. | :21:58. | |
Criminal Shadows, the world was changing, and homosexual love which | :21:58. | :22:07. | |
is part of humanity itself, began to become part of normal life. When | :22:07. | :22:12. | |
I was 18, gay people were at last allowed to have sex. Legally. I was | :22:12. | :22:22. | |
:22:22. | :22:27. | ||
still illegal at 18 but things were Up to a point, but gay couples were | :22:27. | :22:31. | |
still denied the basic legal provisions which extended not only | :22:31. | :22:37. | |
to married couples but also to common-law spouses. Then came the | :22:37. | :22:42. | |
astonishing breakthrough of civil partnership. A huge leap forward. | :22:42. | :22:47. | |
Marriage in all but name. But, in a very important sense, the name of | :22:47. | :22:53. | |
marriage is what marriage is. A symbolic moment, a big step forward | :22:53. | :22:59. | |
for the relationship. An ideal blessing. This is what many gay | :22:59. | :23:09. | |
:23:09. | :23:21. | ||
If David Cameron's big society means anything, it means not just | :23:22. | :23:27. | |
inclusiveness, but mutual respect. And a guarantee of that respect, | :23:27. | :23:35. | |
Should institutions in which we can all participate fully. The Prime | :23:35. | :23:38. | |
Minister has with incredible clarity and boldness expressed | :23:38. | :23:42. | |
himself in favour of gay marriage. There are those in his party who | :23:42. | :23:47. | |
resist this change, as they have resisted every single social change | :23:47. | :23:52. | |
harking back to a golden age, golden for a few perhaps. But the | :23:52. | :23:56. | |
dark ages for money. The poor, women, people from other races, | :23:56. | :24:06. | |
:24:06. | :24:09. | ||
-- the dark Ages for many. I deeply love my partner. For better or | :24:09. | :24:15. | |
worse, richer or poorer, in sickness and In Health, till Death | :24:15. | :24:21. | |
do Us Part. The change in the law will set the seal on a love and | :24:21. | :24:31. | |
:24:31. | :24:33. | ||
make sure we are fully part of the And Simon Callow is with us now. | :24:33. | :24:37. | |
Welcome to the programme. You said in that film there the Prime | :24:37. | :24:39. | |
Minister had boldly expressed themselves in favour of gay | :24:39. | :24:43. | |
marriage but yesterday afternoon, we got the details of the | :24:43. | :24:45. | |
Government plans which would make it illegal for gay people to marry | :24:45. | :24:50. | |
in the Church of England and Wales. Are you disappointed? It's | :24:50. | :24:54. | |
bewildering. More than disappointed. I don't have the ambition to be | :24:54. | :24:58. | |
married in a church, but there must be many Church of England ministers | :24:58. | :25:03. | |
who are strongly in favour of gay marriage, to marry somebody in a | :25:03. | :25:08. | |
church would be a criminal act is an astonishing if medieval idea. | :25:08. | :25:12. | |
I'm bewildered, frankly. Were you under the impression that the | :25:12. | :25:17. | |
Government's plans would allow you to marry in that church of England? | :25:17. | :25:21. | |
That was the impression given the question up it was carefully | :25:21. | :25:26. | |
unclear. Nobody ever made but absolute commitment and we knew | :25:26. | :25:31. | |
there would be huge pressure from the backbenchers also it is a small | :25:31. | :25:36. | |
symbol of saying, yes, but not absolute equality. Just as a civil | :25:36. | :25:40. | |
partnership said you can get married up to a point, because | :25:40. | :25:45. | |
you're not really like everybody else. There's a thing says the same. | :25:45. | :25:49. | |
To make it clear, the Church we filmed you in yesterday, you would | :25:49. | :25:53. | |
not be able to marry there, even if the clergy supported it? Indeed, | :25:53. | :26:03. | |
:26:03. | :26:03. | ||
that's the case. It's a very bizarre thing. What has gone wrong? | :26:03. | :26:08. | |
What I liked about the film was it tell the story of how society's | :26:08. | :26:12. | |
attitude to homosexuals t has changed enormously. I think where | :26:12. | :26:18. | |
we are now is with the Prime Minister who believes passionately | :26:18. | :26:24. | |
in marriage wants to open it up. But not in the Church of England. | :26:24. | :26:29. | |
We want to do something which was possible. You don't think it's | :26:29. | :26:33. | |
possible? We were under the impression that if the clergy in | :26:33. | :26:38. | |
certain churches were in favour, you would be able to marry there? | :26:38. | :26:43. | |
There is a very delicate balance to be strong between a desire to open | :26:43. | :26:49. | |
up marriage to same-sex couples without make made compulsory. There | :26:49. | :26:52. | |
is clear pressure from backbenchers but I would be surprised if there | :26:52. | :26:56. | |
wasn't from the Labour backbenchers, because I don't sense your position | :26:56. | :27:03. | |
on this is on party lines, at all. It is more one faith lines for the | :27:03. | :27:06. | |
you can't underestimate the strength of this feeling. | :27:06. | :27:12. | |
Politicians have got to reflect and respect that. It's the balance. | :27:12. | :27:15. | |
What is Labour's position on this? The Shadow Cabinet will be | :27:15. | :27:18. | |
supporting moving towards gay marriage and we would have liked to | :27:18. | :27:23. | |
have had a situation with churches happy to carry out the ceremonies, | :27:23. | :27:28. | |
being able to do that. There is an issue for the Government and the | :27:28. | :27:32. | |
Church of England. Part of the problem is, it's a bit of yes and | :27:32. | :27:39. | |
No position they have adopted. In some senses, the Prime Minister has | :27:39. | :27:44. | |
a problem. He has a large part of his party who hearken back and seek | :27:44. | :27:50. | |
a Britain we had in the 1950s when we were different. There is a | :27:50. | :27:57. | |
political issue death. There are Labour MPs like this as well. | :27:58. | :28:02. | |
plus women bishops, they are moving to a place where we want to outlaw | :28:02. | :28:07. | |
this. I want to hear Symons response. You said there was a | :28:07. | :28:11. | |
strength of feeling amongst many Conservative backbenchers about gay | :28:11. | :28:16. | |
marriage? We understand many people are frightened it will be | :28:16. | :28:21. | |
compulsory for churches to marry gay people. I personally have no | :28:21. | :28:26. | |
desire for it to be compulsory. This is a protective advice but it | :28:26. | :28:33. | |
seems an extreme one, to me. To introduce the criminal element. | :28:33. | :28:37. | |
afraid it's coming up to 1:00pm. Now, it's time to put you out of | :28:37. | :28:41. | |
your misery and give you the answer to Guess The Year. The return of | :28:41. | :28:43. | |
the Stone of Destiny to Scotland. The unveiling of the Millennium | :28:43. | :28:53. | |
:28:53. | :28:58. | ||
Dome. The answer was 1996. Nick She must have known about the Stone | :28:58. | :29:01. | |
of Destiny. OK, that's all for today. Thanks to our guests. The | :29:01. | :29:05. |