14/12/2012 Daily Politics


14/12/2012

Jo Coburn with the latest political news including businessman Martin Sorrell and an interview with health minister Norman Lamb, plus a regular look at what's happening in Europe.


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Welcome to the Daily Politics. The top story today: After her high-

:00:43.:00:47.

octane argument over an independent Scotland, and whether it would need

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to apply for membership of the EU, the leaders of the Yes campaign and

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the No campaign debated for the first time. Ed Miliband says

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everybody in Britain should be able to speak English, and that it

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should be a requirement in key professions. We will have details

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of his speech on social integration. We will ask the Health Minister who

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is rolling out budgets for personal health budgeting across England

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what it means for patients. As part of our regular look at Europe, we

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have sent a monoglot to find out how the EU communicate. English,

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:01:31.:01:34.

French, Italian, Spanish, The multilingual programme that we

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are. All that in the next hour. With me is Martin Sorrell, he runs

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the advertising giant WPP and is the long-standing chief executive

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in the FTSE 100. Sitting at the moment. Take the weight off your

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feet. Let's start by speaking about Ed Miliband's later speech on

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immigration. Earlier this year, he said his party had got it wrong by

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not restricting the flow of migrants from Eastern Europe in

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2004. This morning, he is saying too little has been done to

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integrate those who settled in British society. The speech comes a

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few days after the census showed that fewer than half the people

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We were at the nearby college just now, particularly the women that we

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met there were speaking about how important it was to learn English,

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because it gave them not only the ability to help their children, get

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into work, but also be part of our society. That is what language

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gives you, that is why it is so important. If we're going to be one

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nation, which I believe in, we should have the goal that everyone

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in the society we have should speak English. We should expect that of

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people who come here. Before we get on to that, let speak about the

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figures. Between 1997 and 2010, net migration totalled more than 2.2

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million people. Was that too much? Personal view, not corporate view,

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I don't think it can never be too much. Immigrants provide a lot of

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resources, thought, entrepreneurial vigour, enthusiasm and creative

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perversity. My grandparents came here from Russia in 1899. They

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could not speak a word of English. I would not be here if it was not

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for them. I think you can never have too much diversity in a

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country. One of the things that troubles me is when we get into

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these issues about the EU, some of the arguments made about the use

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there is too much immigration, and implicitly there is an extreme

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right-wing bias against immigration. It comes into the debate in a

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subtle way, but I think immigration is extremely important. At the

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moment, we don't have enough foreign students. We have foreign

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students who come here, are educated here and go away. We had

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certain sectors of the economy where we cannot get enough skilled

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labour. What about controlling it? Even Ed Miliband is saying they

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should have been harder on illegal immigrants, clamping down on the

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floor. I'm right in saying we do not know the number of illegal

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immigrants. We don't control it effectively. I would agree on that.

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Then there is the question about hurdles. The system currently in

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effect would have stopped my grandparents from coming, so I

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would have a vested bias against that. You have to be extremely

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careful about the legislation. On the language skills that he raised,

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it is not just English. One of the problems the British had, they are

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not very good at languages at all. It is not just learning English,

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because the Chinese have the highest English-speaking population

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in the world, over 300 million. It is about, a German, Spanish,

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Italian... Yesterday, George Osborne told MPs on the Treasury

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Select Committee what starring role he had in the school nativity play.

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Did he play and Shepherd, a wise man, a donkey or the triangle?

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Later in the show, Martin Sorrell will give us the correct answer. If

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you're watching the Daily Politics last week, you will have seen

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Andrew speaking to Michael Moore about the question whether an

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independent Scotland would automatically stay in the European

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Union. It is a crucial question, and this week, Jose Manuel Barroso

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confirmed it is his view that if Scotland votes for independence in

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2014, it would need to reapply for EU membership. The SNP strongly

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disagree. Yesterday, Nicola Sturgeon made a statement in the

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Scottish Parliament on the issue. Here is a flavour of that debate.

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The European Commission, however important, is not the final arbiter

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of these matters. Jose Manuel Barroso's statements do not

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constitute a ruling, as some have suggested, nor does the commission

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even claim to be specifically addressing the specific situation

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of Scotland. The president of the Commission made clear in his letter

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to the House of Lords committee that the European Commission has

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expressed its views in general. thank the Deputy First Minister for

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prior sight of her statement, it is a triumph of optimism and

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evasiveness over hard-headed reality, because it poses more

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questions than it answers. She says the process of negotiating the

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place in Europe will take 18 months. How is that possible in the fastest

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ever process took three years? Does she even know if she will be

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granted a meeting with Jose Manuel Barroso? His Annabel Goldie or

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anyone in this chamber seriously saying that Scotland would find

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itself ejected from the European Union? Oil-rich, renewable energy

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right, fishing rights Scotland. If they arguing that, they should

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stand up and argue that explicitly and they will be laughed out of the

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chamber and laugh that across the country. They will deserve to be.

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The statement answers the question I asked the first minister earlier,

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does he expect all 27 member states to simply sign up to whatever the

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Scottish Government demand? The answer seems to be yes, they do. It

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seems to be she has a starry eyed belief that an independent Scotland

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would never lose out in any negotiation ever for the rest of

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time. Back in reality, can she answer Patricia Ferguson's

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question? When does she plan to meet the 27 members of the European

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Union to establish whether they agree? I look forward to engaging

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with other member states, with the European Commission, if they will

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engage with us, with the UK government. We will talk about the

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arguments for Scotland being an independent country, because those

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arguments are not as compelling, they are unanswerable. -- Not only

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compelling. Nicola Sturgeon. We have been joined from Glasgow by

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Blair Jenkins, chief executive of yes Scotland, and Alistair Darling.

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Will Scotland need to reapply it for you membership? The key point

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in all this is whether the negotiations on the continued

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membership happens with Scotland being inside the European Union

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were having to come out. We are confident that Scotland will be

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negotiating terms and conditions as part of the European Union from a

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position of continuing to be with them. It is not automatic, is it?

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It will not be automatic that Scotland independently would become

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a member of do you? It is a political rather than a legal issue.

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There is no position for the citizens to stop being part of the

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European Union. This will be a political issue. It is

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inconceivable that those negotiations will take place

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against any other framework and Scotland being part of the EU.

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may be the case, but do you accept that the SNP has repeatedly said,

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and certainly implied, that it would be automatic. There would be

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no case for having to reapply? Now we discover that Jose Manuel

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Barroso has said that new independent countries would have to

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apply and it is not guaranteed. The SNP have given the impression that

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it would be guaranteed. Jose Manuel Barroso has offered his opinion.

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is pretty important, isn't he? Indeed, and I would not disagree.

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It has always been said there would be negotiations. The Scottish

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Government have always been clear that there would be negotiations

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and that would be the case. Alistair Darling, it seems Blair

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Jenkins has admitted there would be negotiations, not an automatic

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entry, but to take Nicola Sturgeon's., why would anyone block

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it? -- Nicola Sturgeon's opinion. We have always said it would have

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to negotiate its position on matters like the currency, border

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controls, rebate. For years, Nicola Sturgeon has said the membership of

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the European Union would be automatic, she had a legal opinion

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to back that up which turns out to be nonsense, there never was a

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legal opinion. What we will get as a result of this is the uncertainty

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that comes firstly in try to negotiate a break-up of the UK with

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the rest of the UK, and secondly, the uncertainty that comes through

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negotiations with the rest of the European Union. Finland, which is

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an uncontroversial application, that took three years. We know some

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member states who, for their own reasons, will want to make life

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difficult because of their own internal difficulties. You have

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years of uncertainty which is extremely damaging to businesses,

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therefore to employment and jobs in Scotland. All this because the

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nationalists sought to mislead people into believing that nothing

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would change, it would be automatic, there was no risk to anything. We

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now see the truth of it. The deceived us, we're now in a

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position throwing ourselves at the mercy of 27 other countries and

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nobody knows the outcome. campaign has deceived the

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electorate and be misleading. don't think that is the case but I

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think the question Alistair Darling needs to answer... Let's just

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answer those accusations, he has said the whole campaign was based

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on deception. I don't speak on the Scottish Government but I have been

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saying all along this, and I have been clear. From the No campaign

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perspective, it is he saying Scotland would need to leave the UK

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and renegotiate? -- leave the European Union and renegotiate?

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Does he agree that we would continue to be part and renegotiate

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from within? Will you answer his question about years of

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uncertainty? None of this is guaranteed, you have been

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campaigning on a promise you cannot back up. You cannot guarantee it.

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That is what has been said to the Scottish electorate. The SNP have

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said we will remain part of do you, we will keep the sterling, we will

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keep opting out, now the argument is, is anyone seriously saying the

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European Union would not want Scotland as an independent member?

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Nobody is seriously saying in Europe that Scotland will not be a

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member of the EU. What about the years of uncertainty? Another

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example is East Germany, when it read it -- when it reunited it

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joined overnight. That was on the basis of 40 years of communist

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dictatorship and East Germany conforming with none of this and

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additions -- none of the conditions. If that can become part of the

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European Union overnight, then Scotland with 40 years of

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participation in accord with all the requirements would find itself

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in a more difficult position, that is absurd. I don't think anyone

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credibly in Scotland will be saying Scotland will not continue to be

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members of the European Union. difference between me and the

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campaign opposite is I have never argued something that is contest

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the ball, I have never argued that Scotland could not get into the

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European Union. I have always said there would be negotiations on key

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issues like currency, border controls, the rebate. Take one

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example, the rebate. It is no secret that the rest of the

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European Union does not like the fact that the UK has a rebate, they

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have always been trying to get rid of it. Do you think for one moment

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that prevented with an opportunity to renegotiate -- presented with an

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opportunity to renegotiate that, they would not take it? If you look

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at the new members of the European Union, they have signed up to the

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euro. I said earlier, one of the problems the nationalists have got,

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they have two policies, negotiating with the European Union, the second

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is we will have a currency union with the rest of the UK to keep the

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pound, even though nobody is proposing to ask England, Wales and

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Northern Ireland. How could you join a currency union when you

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don't know whether you need to join the euro? The deceit here is that

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for years the nationalists have said you do not need to worry about

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this. Now the same people are saying we will get in overnight, it

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is no problem. I cannot believe this because I do not believe

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preparation has been done, Alex Salmond is nowhere to be seen. That

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speaks volumes for the fact that the nationalists are in various

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places. The problem is, Scotland will need to make the biggest

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decision it has ever made, and it looks more like we are being sold a

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one-way ticket to an uncertain destination, they are not sure

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where they're going, and peopled might be wary of them. -- people

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should now be. Why was this preparation not done before? Why is

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Nicola Sturgeon only now writing to Jose Manuel Barroso? Why was legal

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advice will be taken in October? Plenty of time to clarify these

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:16:42.:16:47.

He made an important point. He used the word deceit. One of the

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suggestions of the No campaign is the false assertion that Scollan

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would be forced to join the euro. - - Scotland. That is untrue. I would

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call him to withdraw that assertion. Do you withdraw that assertion?

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What I said was that three of the issues that are going to confront

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Scotland is whether we join the euro, passport control, and the

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rebate. Nobody knows the outcome of these negotiations, least of all

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the nationalists. Blair Jenkins will tell you that he doesn't know,

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either. Up until now, everybody who is joining, the euro is there. It

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is an article of political faith among speak European Union. It is

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central. The uncertainty here, because we will not know, and the

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idea that this can be sorted overnight - nothing in Europe is

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sorted overnight - the idea is fanciful. The reason I used the

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word deceit is, remember, Alex Salmond told us there was a legal

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opinion. Nicola Sturgeon says she had a legal opinion. It turns out

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that is not true. Why are you so certain that you

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would not have to join the euro, or at least had a difficult and long

:18:15.:18:23.

negotiations over not joining? It is clear that there has to be a

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mechanism. Participation in the exchange-rate mechanism is

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voluntary. There are a number of things being said which are

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misleading. Some members of the campaign talk about border posts

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and controls. This is part of trying to lay roadblocks in the way

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of the Scottish people to prevent debate about what a future Scotland

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could and should be. Where the debate is going to focus is that

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there's one certainty by staying in the UK is that we will continue to

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get governments that we did not vote for. Scottish people will

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continue to live in fuel poverty in one of the most energy rich nations

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in the world. That will focus the mind of Scottish people.

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Blair Jenkins, thank you very much, and Alastair Darling, thank you.

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The first of many debates among you, I'm sure.

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What about a comment from you on this? Be careful what you wish for.

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The devil is in the detail. Thinking through all these issues

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at is something that the Independent movement has not

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explored. That is because negotiations are

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involved. Blair Jenkins has a point. The campaign has been criticised

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for not doing preparation - these things are always up for

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negotiation. If we have to renegotiate our bilateral

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agreements, how long is that going to take? People are saying 10 years.

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We will be going on forever, renegotiating our agreements. Half

:20:08.:20:15.

of them go to the EU market. The point that Alastair Darling makes

:20:15.:20:21.

about uncertainty is a good one. Faced with these uncertainties,

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talking about Scottish independence or whether we are in or out of

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Europe, it gives business, which is involved in long-range planning,

:20:29.:20:33.

the heebie-jeebies. What they worry about his where they are going to

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get the growth from. It is not coming from Western Europe now. We

:20:37.:20:41.

are going to have to wait until 2018 or there for Europe to get its

:20:42.:20:46.

act together. This is incremental uncertainty, which we don't need in

:20:46.:20:50.

the UK or Europe. It is the time of year when we let

:20:50.:20:53.

go of the purse-strings and try to forget how much we are spending on

:20:53.:20:57.

presents. That is what retailers will be hoping for as a limb for a

:20:57.:21:00.

much-needed boost in sales. It has been another year in which the

:21:00.:21:05.

British economy has struggled. Are things looking brighter for 2013?

:21:05.:21:09.

In last week's Autumn Statement, the Chancellor admitted that

:21:09.:21:13.

because of sluggish growth, it was going to take an additional year to

:21:13.:21:17.

eliminate the deficit and the Office of Budget Responsibility

:21:17.:21:21.

said the economy would shrink by 0.1 % in the final three months of

:21:21.:21:24.

this year. Some economists say we will return to recession. Spending

:21:24.:21:31.

power has been hit, too. The latest figures show annual growth of 1.3%

:21:31.:21:38.

in earnings. There's been more positive news on the jobs front.

:21:38.:21:43.

The broad measure of unemployment fell by 80,000, the largest fall in

:21:43.:21:53.
:21:53.:21:57.

a decade. Employment for 18-24 year olds went up by 55,000. Despite

:21:57.:22:02.

this, the UK's Triple A status is under threat. It is a blow for the

:22:02.:22:06.

Chancellor and his austerity measures. Let's discuss this with

:22:06.:22:12.

Martin Sorrell. Let's pick up on the negative outlook for the Triple

:22:12.:22:18.

A rating. Did George Osborne lay too much store by that rating?

:22:18.:22:23.

He has fixed his course. He has put in place policies which please the

:22:23.:22:26.

international markets. He has lowered the rate of borrowing for

:22:26.:22:30.

the UK. It is not dissimilar to what we have seen in other

:22:30.:22:35.

countries. Italy have done the same. This was needed to get us out of

:22:35.:22:42.

the problems. We have seen other countries lose it, and does it

:22:42.:22:49.

matter? No. Intuitively, I have a negative reaction. When you examine

:22:49.:22:55.

it, maybe not so much. However, it is symbolic. It is not a position

:22:55.:22:58.

the government wants to be in. The government pursued the right course

:22:58.:23:02.

in the short term. Do you trust George Osborne to get

:23:02.:23:09.

growth going? I think it will come. Because of the policies, or despite

:23:09.:23:18.

then? Partly because of them. In America, they pursued expansion,

:23:18.:23:28.

and Britain hasn't. Government spending has risen in nominal terms.

:23:28.:23:32.

If you inflation at just, it may have fallen in real terms. --

:23:32.:23:42.
:23:42.:23:42.

adjust. The targets that were set, either in front or after the

:23:43.:23:48.

election, were too strong. We have a last decade, and we are halfway

:23:48.:23:55.

through it. We are going to have austerity until 2018.

:23:55.:24:00.

Which is interesting, given the election in 2015. The coalition is

:24:00.:24:07.

going into that, saying, we have continuing austerity. Not a recipe

:24:07.:24:14.

that usually wins elections. Chancellor has pinned his figures

:24:14.:24:20.

on closing tax loopholes. Is that a credible plan? We can argue that

:24:20.:24:26.

some of it is one time as opposed to selling licences or assets. It

:24:26.:24:29.

is a one-time adjustment. I actually think that if you look at

:24:29.:24:34.

the Budget statements that George Osborne has made, given the lack of

:24:34.:24:38.

wiggle room, it has been a highly creative. We have seen into

:24:38.:24:45.

strutted changes, banks trying to stimulate small and medium-sized

:24:45.:24:50.

companies, corporation tax. The fact is, there were excesses of an

:24:50.:24:55.

extreme nature. We are over inflated the economy. That

:24:55.:24:59.

correction is going to take a long time. There's no getting away from

:24:59.:25:03.

that. Will it be worse next year, or

:25:03.:25:08.

better? Looking at the project has for GDP, it should be about the

:25:08.:25:17.

same. Ironically, it is forecast to be a bit better. Real GDP is meant

:25:17.:25:25.

to be going up. Briefly, do you believe global companies like

:25:25.:25:31.

Starbucks and Amazon have not been paying their fair share of tax?

:25:31.:25:37.

We are getting into dangerous territory. Starbucks saying they

:25:37.:25:40.

are going to pay corporation tax. They should have given the money to

:25:40.:25:44.

apprenticeship schemes, for example, rather than say they are going to

:25:44.:25:50.

pay minimal tax. The whole issue you have to be careful about.

:25:50.:25:57.

Companies are extremely fluid and extremely mobile. The government

:25:58.:26:02.

here, it's arrestingly, the coalition changed the policy. --

:26:03.:26:12.

interestingly. The government have now given some certainty. That is

:26:12.:26:17.

what is needed. I have to say this. Companies can leave the country, a

:26:17.:26:22.

tax point of view without leaving the country physically. We knew it

:26:22.:26:26.

export your brand, you're leaving the country.

:26:26.:26:31.

Is it morally right? We will come to that on another occasion. In two

:26:31.:26:34.

years, if you suffer from a long- term condition in England, you will

:26:34.:26:37.

have a right to take control of the money the NHS spends on the

:26:37.:26:43.

treatment. It is seen as the Holy Grail in helping the NHS to deal

:26:43.:26:47.

with spending cuts. A place where it has been tried out his

:26:47.:26:52.

Northamptonshire. Adam has been to find out how it works.

:26:52.:26:55.

Three years ago, Alex had a stroke that affected his sight and mental

:26:55.:26:59.

health. A year ago, he was given control of the money the NHS spends

:26:59.:27:07.

on him and he bought... Yes, a drum kit. It helps him with his

:27:07.:27:12.

medication. Instead of going for weekly

:27:12.:27:19.

physiotherapy, I go for a weekly jobless and. I tried -- drum lesson.

:27:19.:27:25.

I try to make myself go. It is here, it is my multi-gym. It is not a

:27:25.:27:29.

frivolous thing. It is very functional.

:27:29.:27:33.

He is there at anything that the 37 patients on this scheme could not

:27:33.:27:37.

get? The limit is that they have to have

:27:37.:27:43.

a measurable health outcome, that they are going to make progress.

:27:43.:27:47.

The only limits to what you can buy is you can't buy anything illegal,

:27:47.:27:52.

you can't buy alcohol, you can't gamble.

:27:52.:27:56.

Cheapies like Matthew help people decide how they to spend their

:27:56.:28:04.

budgets. -- GPs. Many opted for non-traditional schemes.

:28:04.:28:07.

We have got people are getting older, people with more complex

:28:07.:28:12.

conditions. We have got more we can do for people at the moment. We

:28:12.:28:17.

need to change the way we are doing things. The NHS can't cope with

:28:17.:28:22.

this, going forward. Personalisation allows us to work

:28:22.:28:26.

with patients more effectively. That is why the Department of

:28:26.:28:29.

Health has decided to allow the scheme across England from 2014,

:28:29.:28:33.

but only to those suffering long- term health conditions. It could

:28:33.:28:37.

save around �90 million per year, but the real goal is to make ill

:28:37.:28:42.

people feel better. It has given me a bit of a purpose

:28:42.:28:47.

in life, rather than just joining the rest of the sheep, joining the

:28:47.:28:54.

queue. I'm trying to do something about it myself.

:28:54.:28:58.

Alex has also bought a Sat Nav with his money, because problems with

:28:58.:29:06.

his memory 90 kept getting lost. -- meant he kept getting lost. The

:29:06.:29:10.

debate is over whether this is a treatment or a treat.

:29:10.:29:15.

We have been joined by the Lib Dem health minister, Norman Lamb. An

:29:15.:29:20.

interesting idea, having watched the film. How do you sell it to the

:29:20.:29:23.

public in a way that doesn't give the impression that this is a waste

:29:23.:29:29.

of money, that money is going on holidays rather than medical

:29:30.:29:32.

treatment? You just have to look at the

:29:32.:29:38.

results. Alex's story is, I think, very powerful. This story is

:29:38.:29:44.

matched by the evidence across the board. We are seeing a real

:29:44.:29:51.

increase in people's sense of well- being. They are taking control. In

:29:51.:29:57.

a way, this is a move from a paternalistic health service - we

:29:57.:30:02.

know best - to a personal one, where the individual, in

:30:03.:30:05.

collaboration with the help professional, works out what is

:30:05.:30:08.

best for them. -- health professional.

:30:08.:30:13.

I can see how it would increase well-being and people may like it.

:30:13.:30:20.

Does it actually save money? It is a very important result if we can

:30:20.:30:24.

improve people's well-being. That is what the health service should

:30:24.:30:30.

be about! There is also evidence it can reduce hospital admissions. I

:30:30.:30:35.

met a guy who was part of the pilot in Kent. His story was also a

:30:35.:30:40.

powerful. He had been in and out of hospital constantly. Give him

:30:40.:30:45.

control, give him the right to determine his priorities, helping

:30:46.:30:50.

to self- care better, and actually, it resulted in a massive reduction

:30:50.:30:54.

in his hospital admissions. So, a big improvement in his well-being

:30:54.:31:00.

and a saving to the NHS. I repeat, I think this could be powerful.

:31:00.:31:04.

Would you like to see it rolled out further? Who would access it? I

:31:04.:31:10.

know this is a trial. But people on long-term illnesses, are they the

:31:10.:31:20.
:31:20.:31:21.

only people who could access the We will start with those people. We

:31:21.:31:28.

can make that work quickly. It can go beyond that. I am open-minded

:31:29.:31:33.

about a very areas of health care, for example, mental health. --

:31:33.:31:41.

other areas. If there is any place where it really matters it is

:31:41.:31:45.

mental health. It can have a massively positive effect. Even

:31:45.:31:53.

with maternity, giving the power to the mother-to-be, to decide how the

:31:53.:31:59.

money is best used, that could potentially be very effective.

:31:59.:32:06.

Before you go, what you think? think it is a good idea. It gets

:32:06.:32:10.

rid of the nanny state, and if you look at health care it is very

:32:10.:32:17.

interesting. People diagnose themselves a lot. Is that safe?

:32:17.:32:23.

have a control mechanism, the nurse and a GP. They need to approve or

:32:23.:32:27.

recommend where the budget is spent. These are for people suffering

:32:27.:32:33.

long-term injuries, the case studies will go the other way, but

:32:33.:32:36.

it is really good. We speak at a happiness Index, this makes people

:32:37.:32:41.

feel more in control of their destiny. That is what life is

:32:41.:32:47.

increasingly about, with things like the Internet. If you do access

:32:47.:32:53.

this money, �10,000, does that mean you will not be able to access

:32:53.:32:57.

other services because you have had the money to deal with your

:32:57.:33:04.

condition? No. Firstly, it is right that the care plan is agreed

:33:04.:33:09.

between you and your GP, but if you need other care and support beyond

:33:09.:33:14.

what the package has provided for you, you are not denied health care,

:33:14.:33:19.

that would be ridiculous. This is about using the money that is

:33:19.:33:23.

available for your condition much more effectively, and as a liberal,

:33:23.:33:31.

I think this is a Liberal Health Service, it is very exciting.

:33:31.:33:36.

is just time before you go to find out the answer to the quiz. The

:33:36.:33:39.

question was, what starring role did George Osborne take in the

:33:39.:33:44.

school nativity play? Was it a shepherd, a wise man, a donkey or

:33:44.:33:50.

the triangle. I think he was probably the triangle. Did you know

:33:50.:33:58.

that? It was a complete guess. are right. Coming up in a moment,

:33:58.:34:03.

our monthly look at what has been going on in European politics, but

:34:03.:34:07.

first it is time to say goodbye to Martin Sorrell. Thank you very much.

:34:08.:34:12.

This week, members of the European Parliament have been meeting in

:34:12.:34:16.

Strasbourg for their regular session. What have they been

:34:16.:34:20.

getting up to? Here is our guide to the latest in Europe in just 60

:34:20.:34:30.

Which novel piece of Europe got a gong this week? The European Union

:34:30.:34:34.

except that the Nobel Peace Prize for uniting the Continent after two

:34:34.:34:39.

world wars. David Cameron was unable to attend leaving the

:34:39.:34:42.

schmoozing to Nick Clegg. Jose Manuel Barroso and the SNP have

:34:42.:34:47.

fallen out. Jose Manuel Barroso says it is obvious an independent

:34:47.:34:55.

country would need to reapply for European Union membership.

:34:55.:35:01.

Italian Prime Minister says he will resign, and Silvio Berlusconi has

:35:01.:35:08.

withdrawn support. He will resign if they pass budget legislation.

:35:08.:35:11.

Campaigners for a single seat for the European Parliament to double

:35:11.:35:15.

as it was ruled that MEPs should continue meeting in Strasbourg once

:35:15.:35:22.

a month. It took 40 years to event, but the European Union has

:35:22.:35:32.
:35:32.:35:32.

introduced a new system that could For the next 30 minutes I have been

:35:32.:35:40.

joined by Kay Swinburne and Claude Moraes. Let's look at the agreement

:35:40.:35:46.

on a single patent for Europe. Sounds like a good idea. Why

:35:46.:35:50.

shouldn't there just be one? Do you welcome it? I do, we have waited a

:35:50.:35:55.

long time for this and it is really good news for lots of businesses.

:35:56.:36:00.

One system across ball of the EU is perfectly placed to help us expand

:36:00.:36:09.

in the market. -- across all the EU. Except, Italy and Spain are opting

:36:09.:36:16.

out. They have special circumstances. Not everyone argues

:36:16.:36:22.

that, it is extraordinary. I have been in the parliament since 1999,

:36:22.:36:28.

I represent London, which probably has more innovators than anywhere.

:36:28.:36:33.

They have been telling me this has been going since the 1970s. The

:36:33.:36:37.

United States, Martin Sorrell was here earlier, competing with the

:36:37.:36:41.

United States to get a unified patent that helps innovators. That

:36:41.:36:45.

is an extraordinary jump forward for the single market, and it is

:36:45.:36:50.

just the kind of thing we need to boost business. What costs are we

:36:50.:36:56.

talking about? The United States is quoted as having a very low figure.

:36:56.:37:00.

Is it really that much more expensive in do you? It is, because

:37:00.:37:04.

you need to go through 27 different member states. If you consolidate

:37:04.:37:09.

that, you would expect that to be 26 times less. It will not be quite

:37:09.:37:17.

that big a difference, but it will be material. When you have a

:37:17.:37:21.

dispute, you will have one court, one arbiter. That is critical for

:37:22.:37:28.

businesses. They can go to one place to get this dispute. Part of

:37:28.:37:33.

that structure will hopefully be in the UK, which is fantastic. And in

:37:33.:37:39.

English. English will be part of it, part of the location will be in the

:37:39.:37:43.

UK, that is a great victory. European Union leaders have been

:37:43.:37:47.

meeting in Brussels to work out how better to supervise banks across

:37:47.:37:50.

the eurozone. They have agreed the European Central Bank will become

:37:51.:37:58.

the supervisor of the banking sector, beginning in 2014. Three

:37:58.:38:02.

banks from each member state will fall under the regime. Smaller

:38:02.:38:06.

banks will continue to be supervised by national regulators.

:38:06.:38:09.

The measure is being seen as the first step towards full banking

:38:09.:38:14.

union, with a single deposit guarantee Scheme and a mechanism to

:38:14.:38:19.

wind up failing banks. Leaders have also been discussing co-operation

:38:19.:38:25.

between European countries. The President has recommended a greater

:38:25.:38:31.

fiscal union, including decision- making on national budget. After

:38:31.:38:36.

the summit closed, David Cameron gave his views. There needs to be

:38:36.:38:39.

flexibility in Europe, flexibility that respect the fact that there

:38:39.:38:44.

are countries that do not want to and never will join the euro, so we

:38:44.:38:50.

need to be flexible about how Europe develops. Also, I believe

:38:50.:38:53.

that it will lead to opportunities for us in the UK to make changes in

:38:53.:38:58.

our relationship with the European Union that will suit us better. The

:38:58.:39:03.

British people will be more comfortable about that. We have

:39:03.:39:11.

been joined from Brussels by Alex Barker. David Cameron and George

:39:11.:39:15.

Osborne both say they are happy to get closer whilst Britain retains

:39:15.:39:22.

influence on the periphery. How does it retain influence? Someone

:39:22.:39:26.

once described to me that Britain's situation used to be in the fast

:39:26.:39:30.

lane of Europe going slow, now it is in the slow low of Europe going

:39:30.:39:35.

slow, and what David Cameron needs to do is find some changes to the

:39:35.:39:41.

rules which allowed those two things to co-exist. He is keen on

:39:41.:39:46.

the single market. He made progress in Europe by having majority rule

:39:46.:39:52.

that basically over road people -- over rights protections their

:39:52.:39:57.

economies would have. The trouble is that Britain is a minority, and

:39:57.:40:02.

there needs to be protection for the UK to feel comfortable in that.

:40:02.:40:08.

Those protections, how easy will they be to achieve? That is always

:40:08.:40:11.

the area of debate. This assumption that Britain will be able to

:40:11.:40:16.

negotiate its way to protecting whatever they want. How does the

:40:16.:40:21.

eurozone views Britain in these negotiations? The banking union

:40:21.:40:26.

negotiation is really important in a precedent, because they were a

:40:26.:40:36.
:40:36.:40:36.

formal coccus, they were getting foreword. -- caucus. They would

:40:36.:40:40.

have had a majority to impose those views. The precedent is the rules

:40:40.:40:46.

for Britain were changed, so it has more of an ability to maintain

:40:46.:40:51.

influence and make sure it is not a suffering. The trouble is, that was

:40:51.:40:57.

over a technical issue, financial standards. When it comes to making

:40:57.:41:05.

a loss, -- making legislation, they will not be able to make emergency

:41:05.:41:09.

rules easily. The French will be unhappy. What we will see in the

:41:10.:41:19.

future is as the Europa zone -- eurozone gets more united, seeing,

:41:19.:41:27.

and perspectives, it will be hard to see Britain maintaining as bake

:41:27.:41:36.

a say as it has at the moment. -- as larger say. How will Britain

:41:36.:41:42.

protect its interests when it is on the outside? What happened this

:41:42.:41:48.

week, obviously we are nearly there, we have a step to take next week,

:41:48.:41:52.

because the parliament now needs to agree with the council's position.

:41:52.:41:57.

I have the delight of being the only non eurozone parliamentarian

:41:57.:42:03.

negotiating that. I hope to bring home what they have negotiated as a

:42:03.:42:12.

final deal. The problem is we have them acknowledging that there is a

:42:12.:42:15.

requirement for a dual voting system. That is a major step

:42:15.:42:19.

forward. We have persuaded them to do that to protect the single

:42:19.:42:23.

market. That is because everybody around that table realises that 40%

:42:23.:42:27.

of the financial markets take place in London, and the knee to take

:42:27.:42:33.

that into account. Let's talk about law-making in general. -- they need

:42:33.:42:39.

to take that. Are you saying you are happy for Britain to be on the

:42:39.:42:46.

outside in future negotiations? problem is it is not them and us.

:42:46.:42:51.

There are a large number of countries outside. 10 member states

:42:51.:42:56.

do not use the euro as a common currency. Other things outside

:42:56.:43:03.

banking and financing, some people use certain rules, some do not. We

:43:03.:43:07.

have different rules across different areas. Are you happy with

:43:07.:43:11.

that arrangement? There will be, in place, a two-tier Europe, and we

:43:11.:43:16.

will be on the outside. It is not about being happy, it is about the

:43:16.:43:21.

single market, the fact that we are in the single market, we need to

:43:21.:43:26.

make it work. For I saw Sweden, not being in the euro does not mean we

:43:26.:43:32.

do not have access to the single market, we have the City of London.

:43:32.:43:42.

-- for Britain or for Sweden. What that means is, when we have the

:43:42.:43:46.

common banking supervisor, we buy into that. That means that we have

:43:46.:43:53.

to have some access to it, some sort of say, but it is in our

:43:53.:43:57.

interest for the euro to be working well, and for the European Central

:43:57.:44:02.

Bank to have some power. To be powerless in this, that is allowing

:44:02.:44:07.

us to have no solutions to the European crisis. That is bad for us.

:44:07.:44:11.

What about the issue of repatriation of powers? There are

:44:11.:44:15.

many Tory MPs, and the Government has said that they want to

:44:15.:44:20.

repatriate powers, but Mark Field has call that a fantasy. There are

:44:20.:44:24.

some things we have sung not -- there are things we have not signed

:44:24.:44:30.

up to. Could the repatriate powers? We have given up some things,

:44:30.:44:35.

including employment. If we try to bring back something we recently

:44:35.:44:41.

gave up, there is more hope. If we are renegotiating from the outset,

:44:41.:44:45.

fundamental things that we negotiated 20 years ago, we would

:44:45.:44:50.

not want to take part. They would be difficult. There are things we

:44:50.:44:58.

can actually take control over, and take sovereignty back. How fast you

:44:58.:45:08.
:45:08.:45:10.

think this closer integration will The EU tends to meander rather than

:45:10.:45:15.

going in straight lines. This week we have seen the biggest step

:45:15.:45:18.

forward in pooling sovereignty is the creation of the single currency.

:45:18.:45:23.

At the same time, at the summit yesterday, they decided to set a

:45:23.:45:32.

time line and to set another one in June. It is a road map to a

:45:32.:45:36.

blueprint for something in the future. It is very vague. Often

:45:36.:45:39.

this is for market pressure more than anything.

:45:39.:45:43.

On that basis, Claude Moraes, we are not going to know what the

:45:43.:45:48.

shape of the EU is going to look like. So flirting with the

:45:48.:45:53.

referendum, as Ed Miliband has done - was that wise?

:45:53.:45:58.

We do know that we are going to have tighter fiscal union with the

:45:58.:46:05.

eurozone. That is something that is going to happen. There's going to

:46:05.:46:11.

be all kinds of proposals. Some of that is in our interest. It is in

:46:11.:46:16.

our interest to have an ECB that is strong to solve the economic crisis.

:46:16.:46:22.

We are in the single market. We do 47% of our trade with the rest of

:46:22.:46:27.

that market. That is important for us. What it means for treaties and

:46:27.:46:29.

referendums, we have to keep an open mind about that and argue our

:46:30.:46:36.

case in Europe. The single market is all about, as

:46:36.:46:40.

we have been hearing, opening up services across Europe to

:46:40.:46:44.

competition. 20 years on from the start of the single market, there's

:46:44.:46:48.

still many areas of the economy where it is not think --

:46:48.:46:52.

implemented. For example, baggage handling at airports. This week

:46:52.:47:00.

there was a proposal to liberalise the market in that area. Susana

:47:00.:47:05.

Mendonca was in Strasbourg. They usually put your suitcases on

:47:05.:47:09.

the right plane, but these workers were in Strasbourg to demand that

:47:10.:47:14.

plans for more competition in the sector should be sent packing. The

:47:14.:47:18.

European Commission had wanted European airports to open up their

:47:18.:47:21.

ground handling services to at least three different companies.

:47:21.:47:28.

And there's been such anger over over the issue that it can get

:47:28.:47:34.

groundstaff outside the European Parliament on a freezing cold day.

:47:34.:47:41.

If you get a new handlers, new competitors, always Down, Down,

:47:41.:47:47.

Down, there's no safeguarding of the rights of the workers.

:47:47.:47:52.

Frankfurt is a small airport and I think the quality will decrease.

:47:52.:47:57.

There will be a competition only for wages down hill. That is not

:47:57.:48:02.

the competition we want. They were not disappointed. MEPs

:48:02.:48:06.

voted to send the plans back to the drawing board, which would have

:48:06.:48:09.

pleased German and Austrian airports, to, in particular

:48:09.:48:14.

Frankfurt, which owns 85% of its ground handling services and has

:48:14.:48:19.

just one other provider. It had lobbied against the plans. This any

:48:19.:48:23.

pieces the proposals were driven by a blind desire to expand the single

:48:23.:48:30.

market. -- this NEP. We should think about it

:48:30.:48:38.

pragmatically. We should leak about the ideology of the neo-liberal

:48:38.:48:43.

market. -- leave out. The single market is what allows

:48:43.:48:48.

people, goods, services and capital to move freely around the EU. In

:48:48.:48:53.

its 20th year, the focus is on completing the process, services

:48:53.:48:58.

like online trot -- Commerce and transport are where the commission

:48:58.:49:02.

wants to fill the gaps. Take down barriers and Europe can

:49:02.:49:12.

be successful. That is a basic idea. I am not pursuing the value of

:49:12.:49:18.

competition as sacrilege. It is simply saying, if you have two

:49:18.:49:25.

providers of services, everybody wants to provide better services,

:49:25.:49:35.
:49:35.:49:40.

does a one provider allowed but? -- Whether it is employment, whether

:49:40.:49:44.

it is manufacturing, we have had different practices and our own

:49:44.:49:48.

parliamentary systems. We have had our own legislation. This is where

:49:48.:49:52.

I think the commission get overly ambitious sometimes in terms of

:49:52.:49:57.

time frames. You can change all of this overnight.

:49:57.:50:00.

The baggage handlers may have won this battle against more

:50:00.:50:04.

competition for the moment, but the commission's calls for more

:50:04.:50:13.

liberalisation will continue. Claude Moraes, as this is the 20th

:50:13.:50:16.

anniversary of the single market, it isn't it time to close the gaps

:50:16.:50:22.

in remaining areas of competition? I voted against this because it was

:50:22.:50:27.

a bad proposal. Our job is to examine these proposals. We are

:50:27.:50:32.

legislators. We should look at the things. One was it bad?

:50:32.:50:42.
:50:42.:50:45.

Be coz they did not look at it In the UK, we had a liberalised

:50:46.:50:55.

position. It works well. People mistake the role of any peace. --

:50:55.:51:00.

MEPs. In the German context, we listened carefully, looked at the

:51:00.:51:05.

proposal, and it was flawed. The commission came forward too quickly

:51:05.:51:10.

on this. They did not consult the trade unions, for example. That is

:51:10.:51:14.

why I did not want to vote for this. It has just been sent back to

:51:14.:51:19.

Committee. It will come back again. Liberalisation, per say, is not

:51:19.:51:25.

wrong. It can bring down costs for the consumer, but it has to be done

:51:25.:51:29.

properly. The German concerns were about

:51:29.:51:35.

safety as well, in terms of baggage. My main concern, and I've voted to

:51:35.:51:43.

send his back because it was flawed, we have the most liberal markets in

:51:43.:51:48.

the UK in regard to this, and yet this would have imposed a different

:51:48.:51:53.

regulation on us. That is not fair. It does not take into account the

:51:54.:52:00.

systems that already exist. To impose a less liberal will --

:52:00.:52:10.

system on a liberal one is not right.

:52:10.:52:14.

I am pleased that the entire mandate here is about finishing the

:52:14.:52:20.

single market. I wish that was their mantra. We can amend bad

:52:20.:52:26.

proposals. We have sent it back. That is not common.

:52:26.:52:30.

It is not liberalisation for its own sake. It does not sometimes

:52:30.:52:38.

work. Where it works is where it is good for the consumer. It breaks

:52:38.:52:42.

the Monopolies and brings down the price. What about railways, Claude

:52:42.:52:49.

Moraes? There's a perception in Britain that state owned companies

:52:49.:52:54.

in Europe can be to run railway lines in the UK. The German one,

:52:54.:53:01.

for instance, can run a line here, but we can't run one in Germany.

:53:01.:53:06.

The liberalisation is good if it works for the consumer. This is why

:53:06.:53:10.

you can't just say, ideologically, it is a good thing. You have to

:53:10.:53:14.

look at each proposal as it comes. That is why, in this case, you look

:53:14.:53:19.

at the proposal, and in this case we sent it back. Which areas would

:53:19.:53:24.

you like to push for? What would you go for next? The real key is

:53:24.:53:30.

this transport issue. It has to be a liberalised market going forwards.

:53:30.:53:34.

The energy markets are the other one I would be pushing for. The UK

:53:34.:53:38.

has got the most liberal of both those markets. The energy market as

:53:38.:53:45.

well? On the energy market, it is certainly liberal. We have very few

:53:45.:53:49.

British companies left. We have a liberal attitude towards these. The

:53:49.:53:53.

irony is, it is the French and German companies who dominate our

:53:53.:53:59.

market on both those big sectors. And yet we don't have any say or

:53:59.:54:04.

access on those. So it is your job to sort that. No pressure!

:54:04.:54:08.

There are current the 27 member countries in the EU, with as many

:54:08.:54:12.

languages. There had as everybody in Brussels communicate with each

:54:12.:54:15.

other? Maybe they don't speak to each other!

:54:15.:54:22.

Here is Adam Fleming. The EU is like a modern-day Tower of Babel.

:54:22.:54:28.

It looks a bit less nice. The idea if it does matter is that every one

:54:28.:54:33.

of the citizens can communicate with the EU in their mother tongue,

:54:33.:54:37.

whether they are Bulgarian, French, or finish. It means that here,

:54:37.:54:42.

based B23 different languages. speak German, French, English,

:54:42.:54:50.

Italian and Dutch. English, French, Portuguese, German.

:54:50.:54:59.

German, French, Norwegian, Danish. A no Estonians because? Anybody

:54:59.:55:04.

speak Irish? That means there are 506 Language

:55:04.:55:09.

combinations. Here, in the document distribution centre, they churn out

:55:09.:55:14.

millions of words per year. Here is a report into some new banking

:55:14.:55:19.

regulations. This is it in English. Here it is in Bulgaria, Slovakia

:55:19.:55:26.

and, French, Latvian, Danish, Hungarian, Slovenian, Spanish,

:55:26.:55:36.
:55:36.:55:39.

finished, Dutch, Maltese, Swedish, But when it comes to the spoken

:55:39.:55:42.

word, most languages are interpreted into English and then

:55:42.:55:47.

re interpreted in two others. Hannah does that in Estonian. She

:55:47.:55:53.

gave me a rare glimpse into the secret world of the interpreters.

:55:53.:55:59.

Languages are different. You can see if you look into the Spanish

:55:59.:56:02.

Booth, you see a lot of hand-waving from the interpreters, a lot of

:56:02.:56:07.

action. The Estonians tend to be very calm. When you're actually

:56:07.:56:15.

there, it is very intense. How long can you do it for in one go?

:56:15.:56:20.

minutes, and then you get very tired. How do you say eurozone

:56:20.:56:30.
:56:30.:56:34.

The EU like to make linguists of us all. One of their goals is to make

:56:34.:56:39.

everybody speak two languages other than their mother tongue. Good luck

:56:39.:56:43.

with that! Yes, I don't know how many

:56:43.:56:48.

languages Adams beats. How many languages do you speak? -- Adams

:56:48.:56:54.

speaks. English is my second language. Welsh is my first one. I

:56:54.:57:04.
:57:04.:57:05.

feel at home in Brussels. Do you speak Estonian? No. I speak

:57:05.:57:10.

a bit of Gujarati and Hindi, though. I don't know if that is on the list.

:57:10.:57:15.

One thing I found, since I have been there since 1999, I found that

:57:15.:57:20.

French was quite a dominant language when I arrived. What I

:57:20.:57:24.

have discovered now is that English is the dominant language. A lot of

:57:24.:57:29.

our work is done informally. has that happened? Accession was a

:57:29.:57:37.

huge thing. In 2004, I noticed a huge shift. They came in, some of

:57:37.:57:41.

the people from the Stalinist era, and they had learned French and

:57:41.:57:45.

their mother tongue, they then came in, started learning English.

:57:45.:57:51.

Everybody else learned English. Some of these southern states, like

:57:51.:57:55.

Cyprus. In his became their language. If you know English and

:57:55.:58:02.

you are in these informal meetings, it gives to such an advantage. That

:58:02.:58:07.

has been written about constantly. It is that little secret that we

:58:07.:58:12.

have. For all these years, sceptics have thought that our influence is

:58:12.:58:17.

waning. What about the French, they must be a set? The only people who

:58:17.:58:21.

insist on speaking their mother tongue, no matter what, are my

:58:21.:58:26.

French colleagues. But actually, we all speak in English, so even my

:58:26.:58:31.

French colleagues can speak, by and large, good English. Even the

:58:31.:58:35.

commissioner will speak in English now, particularly on things like

:58:35.:58:39.

banking union and things. Across the globe, finance is done in

:58:39.:58:44.

English. It is not because I am British. It because finance is done

:58:44.:58:48.

in English. We have an advantage. Thank you very much. That is all

:58:48.:58:54.

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