Browse content similar to 17/12/2012. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Good afternoon and welcome to the Daily Politics. President Obama | :00:38. | :00:43. | |
tells America "we are failing to protect our children". But has he | :00:43. | :00:46. | |
the power to introduce new guns laws following the terrible scenes | :00:46. | :00:51. | |
in Connecticut? Nick Clegg has been setting out how the Liberal | :00:51. | :00:54. | |
Democrats will act in the second half of this Parliament. But will | :00:54. | :00:57. | |
it be enough to stop his party slipping even further behind in the | :00:57. | :01:01. | |
polls? Is the Civil Service in danger of being politicised? We'll | :01:01. | :01:05. | |
take a look at Government plans to shake up the mandarins. And 'tis | :01:05. | :01:08. | |
the season to be jolly. But are Government cuts threatening our | :01:08. | :01:16. | |
Christmas lights? All that in the hour, and with us | :01:16. | :01:19. | |
for today is our special guest, the historian and cross bench peer, | :01:19. | :01:25. | |
Peter Hennessy. But first, America. Last week's | :01:25. | :01:28. | |
terrible mass killing at a primary school in Newtown, Connecticut has | :01:28. | :01:31. | |
touched the entire country and indeed the world. The newspapers | :01:31. | :01:35. | |
today are full of the pictures of the 20 children - most of them just | :01:35. | :01:39. | |
six or seven years old - and their six teachers, who were gunned down | :01:39. | :01:43. | |
by Adam Lanza. But this is a nation where many have deeply held beliefs | :01:43. | :01:46. | |
in the value of owning guns, and the second amendment to the US | :01:46. | :01:49. | |
constitution makes it very difficult to take them off the | :01:49. | :01:59. | |
:01:59. | :02:04. | ||
streets. President Obama gave his reaction. The can't tolerate this | :02:04. | :02:14. | |
:02:14. | :02:14. | ||
any more. These tragedies must end. To end them, we must change. We | :02:14. | :02:20. | |
will be told that the causes of such violence are complex, and that | :02:20. | :02:27. | |
is true. No single law, no set of laws can eliminate evil from the | :02:27. | :02:32. | |
world or prevent every senseless act of violence in our society. But | :02:32. | :02:38. | |
that can't be an excuse for inaction. Surely we can do better | :02:38. | :02:48. | |
:02:48. | :02:51. | ||
than this. What can be done? Peter Hennessy is here and listening to | :02:51. | :02:54. | |
all this from our studios in Salford is the former American Talk | :02:54. | :02:59. | |
Show host, Charlie Wolf. What has he got in terms of power to | :02:59. | :03:05. | |
introduce new gun laws? If it is one of the great paradoxes that the | :03:05. | :03:10. | |
single most powerful person in the world can't prevail very often in | :03:10. | :03:13. | |
their own country, and the National Rifle Association is one of the | :03:13. | :03:21. | |
most effective groups in the world. The right to bear arms is | :03:21. | :03:24. | |
instinctive within many American people and I remember when I | :03:24. | :03:32. | |
visited the United States in 1968, just after Robert Kennedy had been | :03:32. | :03:39. | |
assassinated. There were calls for gun law control to be tightened, | :03:39. | :03:44. | |
but the Federal provisions of very inadequate. For someone who really | :03:44. | :03:48. | |
loves the United States as I do, it is unbearable to see these | :03:48. | :03:53. | |
tragedies - it is unbearable for anybody, but the constitutional | :03:53. | :03:57. | |
enjoyment is such that it will make it very difficult even for this | :03:57. | :04:01. | |
most persuasive of precedence on the back of this unspeakable | :04:01. | :04:05. | |
tragedy to shift the moving parts in such a way that something better | :04:05. | :04:13. | |
might emerge. Charlie, the numbers speak for themselves, something | :04:13. | :04:20. | |
like 62 mass killings since the 1980s. However powerful the gun | :04:20. | :04:25. | |
lobby is, surely new laws have to be brought in? I think that is a | :04:25. | :04:32. | |
myth. It is a deep-rooted feeling and a constitutional item. I am not | :04:32. | :04:37. | |
a gun owner but I do support the Second Amendment and I would not | :04:37. | :04:43. | |
give up that liberty not very quickly at all. Why not? In our | :04:43. | :04:48. | |
system of checks and balances, the power rests with the people. The | :04:48. | :04:52. | |
founding fathers knew that self- defence and the right to bear arms | :04:52. | :04:59. | |
was a natural more so this is as important to us as the First | :04:59. | :05:03. | |
Amendment and free speech and the fifth amendment on not being able | :05:03. | :05:12. | |
to self- incriminate, these are part and parcel of the power, | :05:12. | :05:18. | |
natural powers that we are endowed with by our Creator. If, in | :05:18. | :05:23. | |
situations like this, is there and acceptance that there will be more | :05:23. | :05:33. | |
:05:33. | :05:36. | ||
killings of this nature because gums are in American homes? -- guns. | :05:36. | :05:40. | |
Not necessarily, I have been reading a study that says this | :05:41. | :05:45. | |
feeling that more weapons equals more crime, the evidence doesn't | :05:45. | :05:53. | |
support that. Of the last nine or 12 incidents we have had, all but | :05:53. | :06:03. | |
:06:03. | :06:05. | ||
the one in Arizona were all in areas that have no gums available. | :06:05. | :06:08. | |
Connecticut has the fourth strongest come laws in America. | :06:08. | :06:18. | |
:06:18. | :06:24. | ||
Then why was the home of Adam Lanza, why did it have so many in it? It | :06:24. | :06:33. | |
had a semi-automatic machine gun. semi-automatic is not a gun. There | :06:33. | :06:37. | |
were comes in that house. legally have the right to keep | :06:37. | :06:44. | |
those. It is agreed on all sides that you don't want to see the Adam | :06:44. | :06:53. | |
Lanzas of this world having weapons. It is a two-track system. On the | :06:53. | :06:58. | |
one hand you want to make sure the criminals, people there are not | :06:58. | :07:02. | |
mentally stable, and getting them, but at the same time you want to | :07:03. | :07:06. | |
make sure that responsible gun owners have their powers | :07:06. | :07:09. | |
strengthened to make sure they can protect themselves against these | :07:09. | :07:15. | |
people. How do you do that? It sounds to me like you need laws, | :07:15. | :07:20. | |
even if it is to limit ownership so that they are not regularly in your | :07:20. | :07:26. | |
average American house. I certainly think so, but the Federal provision | :07:26. | :07:33. | |
is week which means you can't keep them out of state. It is a free | :07:33. | :07:39. | |
flow of movement and the Federal come more is inadequate. We could | :07:39. | :07:42. | |
hold our governments to account perfectly well in the United | :07:42. | :07:48. | |
Kingdom without festooning ourselves with weapons. You have to | :07:48. | :07:52. | |
understand our system and our history. We were under the caution | :07:52. | :07:58. | |
of your government of King George the Third and we had to fight a | :07:58. | :08:02. | |
revolution to become free. It is important that one of the reasons | :08:02. | :08:05. | |
EC governments being held in power democratically is because people | :08:05. | :08:11. | |
have the power. I don't want to see a modern day Nazi Germany so it | :08:11. | :08:15. | |
does happen. It is possible even in modern history for these things to | :08:15. | :08:19. | |
happen so it is important for the American people that we hold the | :08:19. | :08:28. | |
power. It is a natural right of self-defence. Because one or two | :08:28. | :08:37. | |
people have violated the law... is more than one or two. It is | :08:37. | :08:42. | |
still a very small percentage. the basis, would you like more | :08:42. | :08:52. | |
:08:52. | :08:54. | ||
people to have guns? It is part of a conversation that should be had. | :08:54. | :08:59. | |
I don't think every school should be made into a fortress, but you | :08:59. | :09:03. | |
talk about a balance and an assessment of risk. This place had | :09:03. | :09:08. | |
security in place, a locked door policy but he shot his way in | :09:08. | :09:12. | |
through a glass door. There needs to be a wider conversation about | :09:12. | :09:18. | |
culture as well. Over half of the top 25 Gunning incidents have been | :09:18. | :09:23. | |
in the last 20 years. Something has changed in our culture, and I think | :09:23. | :09:27. | |
that has a lot to do with reality television, with the fact that | :09:27. | :09:34. | |
these kids have no empathy any more. You can blow someone up on the X | :09:34. | :09:38. | |
box and not think anything of it. Thorpe it is difficult to combat, | :09:38. | :09:43. | |
if that is the deeply held belief of so many Americans to have this | :09:43. | :09:47. | |
instinctive right. President Obama doesn't stand a chance if he wants | :09:47. | :09:51. | |
to change that. He is running against feelings that have been | :09:51. | :09:56. | |
powerful since the 18th century, but Charlie, we haven't threatened | :09:56. | :10:02. | |
you since you beat us in the war of independence. Our country has been | :10:02. | :10:07. | |
attacked physically with a scattering of bombs in the Second | :10:07. | :10:12. | |
World War but we don't have the same mentality is you. Can you | :10:12. | :10:16. | |
understand what you look like in your country? You are a patriot, | :10:16. | :10:20. | |
which has a wonderful thing to be, but can you begin to understand how | :10:20. | :10:27. | |
bizarre and ghastly these attitudes look to us in Europe? Small | :10:27. | :10:33. | |
correction, you haven't threatened us since 1812, a small point. 200 | :10:33. | :10:40. | |
years ago, I think. Not that we have forgotten or anything. There | :10:40. | :10:44. | |
is a cultural difference, and just as we have to respect your culture | :10:44. | :10:50. | |
over here, you have to respect ours. Watching the coverage over here, | :10:50. | :10:56. | |
sometimes I think the press are trying to imprint or project their | :10:56. | :11:01. | |
culture on to America and we are not going to ban handguns, it is | :11:01. | :11:08. | |
not possible. There is a better chance of changing the laws of | :11:08. | :11:11. | |
gravity and it is better to look at the wider picture and say what can | :11:11. | :11:19. | |
we do? It is far-fetched to say they are ghastly the laws. We are | :11:19. | :11:27. | |
free and sovereign nation and that is what is important. A producer on | :11:27. | :11:33. | |
BBC Radio Scotland asked if the World Cup pressure America into | :11:33. | :11:37. | |
giving up their handguns. We are a sovereign nation and that is | :11:37. | :11:40. | |
paramount to us. Today, Nick Clegg celebrates his | :11:40. | :11:44. | |
fifth anniversary as leader of the Liberal Democrats. And today, half | :11:44. | :11:47. | |
way through the expected lifetime of the coalition Government, he's | :11:47. | :11:50. | |
been setting out how he expects his party to tackle the rest of the | :11:50. | :11:54. | |
term. Mr Clegg wants to show that act two of the coalition with the | :11:54. | :11:56. | |
Conservatives is going to be very different, and it certainly looks | :11:56. | :12:00. | |
like it could be rich with dramatic tension. Act one was all about | :12:00. | :12:03. | |
showing that the Lib Dems could get on with the serious business of | :12:03. | :12:05. | |
governing in the national interest alongside David Cameron's Tories | :12:05. | :12:08. | |
But Clegg is setting the scene for more disagreements with the | :12:08. | :12:11. | |
Conservatives and even Government policy in the next stage of the so- | :12:11. | :12:13. | |
called differentiation strategy Mr Clegg will make the point by | :12:13. | :12:16. | |
claiming to have blocked "draconian welfare cuts", and he'll say he | :12:16. | :12:18. | |
wants to means-test benefits for elderly wealthy people, something | :12:18. | :12:28. | |
:12:28. | :12:29. | ||
David Cameron has resisted. At the moment this play seems to be | :12:29. | :12:32. | |
turning into a tragedy for the Lib Dems, with polls over the weekend | :12:32. | :12:37. | |
putting them in fourth place behind UKIP. And with local elections due | :12:37. | :12:39. | |
in the spring, Lib Dem deputy leader Simon Hughes admitted | :12:39. | :12:43. | |
yesterday that there is a "bit of chatter" about Mr Clegg's position. | :12:43. | :12:50. | |
Let's have a listen to what Nick Clegg had to say this morning. | :12:50. | :12:56. | |
is at times like these that Britain needs a party rooted in the centre | :12:56. | :13:03. | |
ground, which anchors the country there. The Liberal Democrats are | :13:03. | :13:11. | |
that party. We are not centre ground Tories, the centre ground is | :13:11. | :13:16. | |
our home. Whilst all the parties Disa at the centre ground under | :13:16. | :13:20. | |
pressure, the Liberal Democrats have done the reverse. Under | :13:20. | :13:25. | |
pressure, we have moved towards the centre. Our political correspondent, | :13:25. | :13:29. | |
Chris Mason, was listening to the whole speech. What struck you about | :13:30. | :13:38. | |
the speed? Nick Clegg painting in loud shades of yellow, trying to | :13:38. | :13:43. | |
distinguish himself from the Conservatives and Labour, to say | :13:43. | :13:46. | |
there is distinct political territory that the Liberal | :13:46. | :13:54. | |
Democrats occupy. We have also heard the sound buy eight we were | :13:54. | :14:04. | |
:14:04. | :14:10. | ||
here again and again. -- the sound bite. In terms of coalition, I got | :14:10. | :14:14. | |
a sense this was clear acceptance that a vote for the Liberal | :14:14. | :14:19. | |
Democrats is a vote for coalition. Yes, central to his pitch, he | :14:19. | :14:23. | |
didn't say this in as many words but it is ultimately obvious, that | :14:23. | :14:29. | |
the Liberal Democrats have to prove that coalition governments can work. | :14:29. | :14:33. | |
Much of the first couple of years of this government has been about | :14:33. | :14:36. | |
doing that, but at the same time they have to prove it can work | :14:36. | :14:40. | |
without leaving their party in a state where it is time the unlikely | :14:40. | :14:43. | |
they might be part of another government any time soon and | :14:43. | :14:48. | |
getting that balancing act right is rather tricky. We saw Nick Clegg | :14:48. | :14:51. | |
using the case-study of welfare reform which matters so much to so | :14:51. | :14:55. | |
many people because of the extent to which the welfare state matters | :14:55. | :15:01. | |
in people's pockets every week, to say there is a difference between | :15:01. | :15:05. | |
us and the Conservatives, and us and Labour. He spoke about the | :15:05. | :15:10. | |
fantasy world that he felt some of those on the Left occupied. You | :15:10. | :15:15. | |
could almost say his strategy was trying to fumble for a third way, | :15:15. | :15:24. | |
but I guess that term has been used With us now is the former Lib Dem | :15:24. | :15:30. | |
chief executive, Lord Rennard. Coalition, a vote for the Liberal | :15:30. | :15:34. | |
Democrats in 2015 will be a vote for a coalition government. I think | :15:34. | :15:38. | |
Nick Clegg was saying that coalition has been difficult for | :15:38. | :15:42. | |
the Liberal Democrats, but he is spelling out that an overall | :15:42. | :15:45. | |
majority for Labour or the Conservatives would be a disaster. | :15:45. | :15:49. | |
He was saying you cannot trust Labour on the economy, the Liberal | :15:49. | :15:53. | |
Democrats are working for a strong economy. You could not trust the | :15:53. | :15:57. | |
Conservative Party to protect the vulnerable, they do not support a | :15:57. | :16:02. | |
fairer society. So vote for the Liberal Democrats to stop the other | :16:02. | :16:08. | |
parties implementing what they want to do, all the more mad elements? | :16:08. | :16:11. | |
Certainly, the Liberal Democrats would stop the mad and immense... | :16:11. | :16:18. | |
What sort of manifesto commitment is that?! I think there are a lot | :16:18. | :16:22. | |
of people who want to stop the madness of the Conservatives and | :16:22. | :16:25. | |
the Labour Party, but there are positive things that people want to | :16:25. | :16:29. | |
see. They believe the way to a stronger economy is through a | :16:29. | :16:32. | |
fairer tax system, and the Liberal Democrats have been responsible for | :16:32. | :16:37. | |
making sure that by next April, people on middle and lower incomes | :16:37. | :16:41. | |
will be paying �600 per year less tax, and that will be a big boost | :16:41. | :16:46. | |
to our economy and a fairer society. In terms of differentiation, what | :16:46. | :16:51. | |
will we see over the next two years in terms of a different strategy | :16:51. | :16:55. | |
compared to the Conservatives? Lib Dems have first to show that | :16:55. | :16:59. | |
coalition government can be stable and can be strong and can take | :16:59. | :17:03. | |
tough decisions. Some will say that could not be the case, but what we | :17:03. | :17:07. | |
will see from the Liberal Democrats is continuing to push for economic | :17:07. | :17:11. | |
rejuvenation. Which has not happened, you admit, up until now, | :17:11. | :17:16. | |
so the whole raison d'etre of collision, working in the national | :17:16. | :17:19. | |
interest, they say they're going to miss all their targets, so that has | :17:19. | :17:23. | |
not worked. There has not been enough of it, but the pressure for | :17:23. | :17:28. | |
growth is coming from the Lib Dem side. At the same time, we want to | :17:28. | :17:32. | |
protect the vulnerable. People who cannot work should be protected. We | :17:32. | :17:36. | |
want to make sure it pays to work, a principal Labour did not have in | :17:36. | :17:41. | |
office. Your impressions of the speech, this idea of more | :17:41. | :17:45. | |
differentiation, and yet the backdrop for 2015 is that you will | :17:45. | :17:49. | |
get coalition government if U-boat for the Liberal Democrats. Not the | :17:50. | :17:56. | |
most inspiring message. It is not Mr Gladstone on stilts, is it? | :17:56. | :18:00. | |
Classic Liberal Democrat territory, which is we are the herbivores of | :18:00. | :18:05. | |
British politics, not red or blue. My dear friend Chris is the | :18:05. | :18:09. | |
incarnation of herbivorous values, and that is why everyone is fond of | :18:09. | :18:14. | |
him. It is fascinating for me, because essentially you have a | :18:14. | :18:18. | |
herbivorous party in with a carnivorous party. They did it in | :18:18. | :18:21. | |
the national interest, and I was in favour of the coalition, given the | :18:21. | :18:28. | |
parliamentary arithmetic of 2010. But it must be a terrible emotional | :18:28. | :18:32. | |
strain, and I understand the need to differentiate. But the pathway | :18:32. | :18:38. | |
to 2015, ideas have been floated that the differentiation will take | :18:38. | :18:43. | |
the form of the coalition breaking up short of that, and I would be | :18:43. | :18:46. | |
interested if Chris could guide us through the possibilities, a | :18:46. | :18:51. | |
confident and supply deal? With the Conservatives in the minority for | :18:51. | :18:55. | |
the last year? Or would it be an attempt to activate that remarkable | :18:55. | :19:00. | |
mechanism that you have got to go through in the Commons with 66% of | :19:00. | :19:07. | |
all MPs voting for the end of the government? That really intrigues | :19:07. | :19:11. | |
me as well. Beyond Nick Clegg's herbivorous speech, the usual | :19:11. | :19:16. | |
importance Of being Earnest, which he does extremely well, there is | :19:16. | :19:20. | |
the wider constitutional question, and we have never had to face that | :19:20. | :19:25. | |
before, because it is new. It is new in the UK, of course, but not | :19:25. | :19:31. | |
unusual to most of Western Europe. Will the coalition for...? It is a | :19:31. | :19:35. | |
five-year agreement, and we have a deal to fit in with that. In most | :19:35. | :19:39. | |
European countries, countries which by and large have done rather | :19:39. | :19:43. | |
better than as since the end of World War II, have had PR, | :19:43. | :19:48. | |
coalitions, and it is understood... Better than as in what sense? | :19:48. | :19:52. | |
Economic growth, delivery of healthcare systems, education. They | :19:52. | :19:57. | |
have done better than us, and they have done better when it is more | :19:57. | :20:00. | |
widely understood that parties work together where they agree and also | :20:00. | :20:04. | |
have differences, as Nick Clegg explained this morning. We often | :20:04. | :20:07. | |
hear the Liberal Democrat say that a slump in support is the price of | :20:08. | :20:13. | |
being in government, when is it a price not worth paying? I think in | :20:13. | :20:16. | |
2015, I hope we will have the leadership debates, Nick Clegg will | :20:16. | :20:20. | |
be able to say, a lot of things have happened in this country | :20:20. | :20:26. | |
because we were in government, tax cuts... But at what level of | :20:26. | :20:30. | |
support, below 10% fairly consistently, UKIP challenging you | :20:30. | :20:34. | |
for third place, in various polls, when does that become a price not | :20:34. | :20:40. | |
worth paying for the party and the grassroots members? I did a paper | :20:40. | :20:43. | |
for Paddy Ashdown in 1988, considering the possibility of | :20:43. | :20:47. | |
coalition, and I said the Lib Dems might well go down to 10% in mid- | :20:48. | :20:51. | |
term as a result of coalition. If you look at by-elections, the | :20:51. | :20:56. | |
elections last month in November, across Great Britain, the Liberal | :20:56. | :20:59. | |
Democrats gained a seat. Labour lost two, the Conservatives last | :20:59. | :21:06. | |
eight. In the most recent by- elections, the Liberal Democrat | :21:06. | :21:09. | |
polling has been dire, I mean it has been. If the Parling position | :21:09. | :21:14. | |
is where it is now after the 2013 local elections, cannot Nick Clegg | :21:14. | :21:19. | |
stay? If you look at the results in the Lib Dem seats, we have done | :21:19. | :21:23. | |
very well fighting the Conservatives. I do not think the | :21:23. | :21:27. | |
party... So you think Simon Hughes is wrong, chattering about | :21:27. | :21:32. | |
leadership. There is no chattering about a change of leader. Then | :21:32. | :21:36. | |
maybe people think, after Nick Clegg, after past 10 years, they | :21:36. | :21:41. | |
might become leader, but there is no chattering. Why is Simon Hughes | :21:41. | :21:45. | |
so wrong? He is the deputy leader. The talks to a lot of people, and I | :21:45. | :21:49. | |
think he has been listening to people saying, we are a great party, | :21:49. | :21:53. | |
we will hopefully be successful at the next election, and there will | :21:53. | :21:57. | |
be a leader after Nick Clegg. Everyone knows there will be a | :21:57. | :22:02. | |
leader after Nick Clegg. So Simon Hughes is wrong. What you say about | :22:02. | :22:04. | |
the chattering reported, Simon Hughes saying people are talking | :22:04. | :22:09. | |
about leadership, as a result of these very poor election results? | :22:09. | :22:12. | |
Well, a lot of people talk about leadership or the time, because | :22:12. | :22:16. | |
that is what gets activists out of bed in the morning, the muttering, | :22:16. | :22:20. | |
the drizzle of complaint about life being so war. You can hardly blame | :22:20. | :22:25. | |
them. All three leaders have them rolling detractors, that is what | :22:25. | :22:28. | |
political parties are about, a displacement activity for the | :22:28. | :22:32. | |
disturbed. You should not be surprised that this is in the | :22:32. | :22:37. | |
background. It is not happening at all, and I know from my experience | :22:37. | :22:41. | |
as chief executive, when there is chattering, and there was with | :22:41. | :22:46. | |
previous leaders... It gets beyond chattering, though, it becomes a | :22:46. | :22:49. | |
roar before leaders go. It has in the past, but there's nothing | :22:49. | :22:54. | |
significance now. Nick Clegg was saying that the Lib Dems have | :22:54. | :22:59. | |
curbed the most draconian welfare cuts from the Tories. For example, | :22:59. | :23:03. | |
the idea that child benefit may be restricted to families with two | :23:03. | :23:08. | |
children. I think that is a pretty anti-family policy for the | :23:08. | :23:11. | |
Conservative Party. Also to protect young people leaving home, seeking | :23:11. | :23:16. | |
a job, so to suggest that you should not be able to claim housing | :23:16. | :23:20. | |
benefit and a 25, I think that would be wrong, so supporting | :23:20. | :23:24. | |
families and supporting young people. The Liberal Democrat have | :23:24. | :23:27. | |
supported every significant government welfare reform. It is an | :23:27. | :23:31. | |
exaggeration to say there is a huge difference between what Nick Clegg | :23:31. | :23:37. | |
thinks and what David Cameron thing somewhere fair, the universal | :23:37. | :23:39. | |
credit, Disability living Allowance, cap one House of benefits, Nick | :23:39. | :23:43. | |
Clegg is supporting one of those things, it is just a difference of | :23:43. | :23:48. | |
language. It is a difference of policy. A of those, that list, | :23:48. | :23:52. | |
which policy is different from the Liberal Democrats? You have listed | :23:52. | :23:56. | |
those things where we have agreed with the principles of things like | :23:56. | :24:00. | |
a cap on housing benefit and on welfare benefits. I think that is | :24:00. | :24:03. | |
fair and good for the country, and most people recognise that it | :24:03. | :24:08. | |
should pay to work rather than be on benefits. But at the same time | :24:08. | :24:10. | |
the Liberal Democrats are saying, and the Conservatives may not, if | :24:10. | :24:15. | |
you cannot work, you should not be penalised. You should be looked | :24:15. | :24:18. | |
after in work and encouraged us well and support it. We are going | :24:18. | :24:23. | |
to come back to this a little later. For now, thank you very much. | :24:23. | :24:27. | |
Who runs government? That question pitching the politicians against | :24:27. | :24:30. | |
the officials of the civil service has been serious debate and the | :24:30. | :24:34. | |
birth of magical satire from Yes Minister to The Thick Of It for | :24:34. | :24:37. | |
years. Today there is a lack of humour about, with signs that the | :24:37. | :24:41. | |
top officials in this government are getting increasingly frustrated | :24:41. | :24:44. | |
with the Jan and how the future relationship between the two should | :24:44. | :24:49. | |
change. -- the two. Giles has been wandering about in Whitehall. | :24:49. | :24:52. | |
Civil servants and politicians often accuse each other of pulling | :24:52. | :24:56. | |
in different directions, pointed out practical problems and policy | :24:56. | :25:00. | |
to Sir Humphrey is part of the job, but to a politician it is just | :25:00. | :25:05. | |
their way of saying no, Minister. In the season of goodwill to all | :25:05. | :25:09. | |
men, a distinct air of ill-will has borne into Whitehall. In Whitehall | :25:09. | :25:13. | |
and particularly here at the Cabinet Office, they boil battle of | :25:13. | :25:16. | |
chess is going on between the government and the Civil Service. | :25:16. | :25:19. | |
They are not talking about the little guys at the bottom, although | :25:19. | :25:23. | |
many have already been removed from the system. We are not even talking | :25:23. | :25:27. | |
about middle managers, although some have gone as well. No, we are | :25:28. | :25:32. | |
talking about the people at the top, and the most controversial thing is | :25:33. | :25:36. | |
that ministers want a say in who gets to the permanent secretaries, | :25:36. | :25:43. | |
and that, for the Civil Service, is a real problem. Since the election, | :25:43. | :25:48. | |
17 R 19 permanent secretary is have gone or moved, and plans for | :25:48. | :25:50. | |
ministerial says so in who comes next have been rejected by the head | :25:50. | :25:55. | |
of the Civil Service Commission, Sir David Normington, a former | :25:55. | :25:59. | |
permanent secretary. The problem that the Sir Humphreys and those | :25:59. | :26:03. | |
who want to defend that culture have is that the current system | :26:03. | :26:06. | |
does not work. Public administration and those who | :26:06. | :26:09. | |
preside over it ought to be publicly accountable. At the moment, | :26:09. | :26:14. | |
they are not, they are a world unto themselves, it is the Civil Service | :26:14. | :26:18. | |
Commission appointing people from the Civil Service, answering to the | :26:18. | :26:22. | |
Civil Service. It is a closed shop and needs to be opened up. We are | :26:22. | :26:27. | |
not dealing with something that is run for and by the Civil Service. | :26:27. | :26:31. | |
We have a system. Why are people cautious? They are asking why it is | :26:32. | :26:37. | |
necessary to change and what are the risks. Those seen to be the | :26:37. | :26:40. | |
politicisation of an impartial system and a weakening of their | :26:40. | :26:45. | |
perceived role speaking truth to power. They are not meant to be | :26:45. | :26:49. | |
there as Yes, Minister, saying yes all the time. They are meant to | :26:49. | :26:53. | |
have a challenge. There is a risk that people will see their careers | :26:53. | :26:56. | |
being dominated by political process, they will team up with | :26:56. | :27:00. | |
buddies with whom they have an affinity. How can it be right, | :27:00. | :27:04. | |
Conservative or Labour, or a government elected by the people to | :27:04. | :27:07. | |
find that it needs the permission of the permanent officials to make | :27:07. | :27:13. | |
it happen? We need a system that allows reformers to commend, for | :27:13. | :27:16. | |
ministers to select senior civil servants who want to make change | :27:16. | :27:20. | |
happen. But the service Cisse merry-go- | :27:20. | :27:23. | |
round of minister and official bodies together and dropped into | :27:23. | :27:28. | |
departments they do not really know as the creation of in permanent | :27:28. | :27:32. | |
secretaries. For experienced hands, that is a bad mix. The fundamental | :27:32. | :27:35. | |
problem at the moment is not that he did it does not have enough | :27:35. | :27:39. | |
volatility, it has far too much movement of both ministers and | :27:39. | :27:43. | |
officials. This tension in government has switched back and | :27:43. | :27:48. | |
forth for years, but right now some suggest that tension has developed | :27:48. | :27:53. | |
the potential to snap. That was Giles reporting, and we | :27:53. | :28:00. | |
are joined by Lord Reid, who held any number of cabinet portfolios | :28:00. | :28:04. | |
under the last government. Why does this matter? One of the great | :28:04. | :28:07. | |
virtues of the British tradition of government which comes from the | :28:07. | :28:12. | |
Victorian era is that we believe in Crown Service, that up against | :28:12. | :28:14. | |
elected ministers we have people recruited and promoted on the basis | :28:14. | :28:19. | |
of merit. What they know, rather than what they believe. This is the | :28:19. | :28:23. | |
governing marriage which has such does -- which has served us very | :28:23. | :28:29. | |
well. As that very good film showed, those who get the equivalent of | :28:29. | :28:32. | |
tenure by being Crown servants, their first duty is to speak truth | :28:32. | :28:35. | |
and to power, tell ministers what they need to know rather than what | :28:35. | :28:40. | |
they wish to hear. They do not want little echo chambers, ministers are | :28:40. | :28:44. | |
all good ministers do not, they do not want people who will tell them | :28:44. | :28:51. | |
about the beauty of their political thought. Only weak ministers need | :28:51. | :28:55. | |
what Edmund Dell, a very tough labour minister, called the comfort | :28:55. | :28:58. | |
blanket of politicised people around them to tell them how | :28:58. | :29:01. | |
marvellous they are, only the deeply insecure would want anything | :29:01. | :29:05. | |
other than the Crown said as we have got, and we are in danger of | :29:05. | :29:09. | |
losing that. I am presuming you are not a deeply insecure minister, but | :29:09. | :29:13. | |
you said the Home Office was not fit for purpose, the implication | :29:13. | :29:16. | |
being that the Civil Service had not done their job falls but I was | :29:16. | :29:21. | |
entirely in accord with my top civil servants. The words are used, | :29:21. | :29:27. | |
and you quoted part of them, about the deficiency in systems and so on | :29:27. | :29:30. | |
were provided for me by the top civil servant in the Home Office at | :29:30. | :29:35. | |
the time. I asked him to be honest enough to give me an appraisal of | :29:35. | :29:39. | |
the condition of the Home Office when he went in, and he did so, and | :29:39. | :29:44. | |
that was actually reading what he had written to me. So Peter is | :29:44. | :29:48. | |
absolutely right, I mean I had nine ministerial positions, eight of | :29:48. | :29:54. | |
them at the Cabinet, some very tough permanent secretary is, | :29:54. | :29:57. | |
including David Norman's son, including Richard, who has just | :29:57. | :30:02. | |
been speaking. And on occasion, of course they would tell me things I | :30:02. | :30:06. | |
did not like, but only weak ministers blame their civil | :30:06. | :30:10. | |
servants, and there is a difference in roles. The ministers are there | :30:10. | :30:15. | |
to lead. Civil servants are there to manage, they are there to speak | :30:15. | :30:21. | |
truth and to power, there to absorb the technicalities of it, and if | :30:21. | :30:31. | |
:30:31. | :30:34. | ||
you cannot take people with you, do Would you have liked to say in the | :30:34. | :30:42. | |
appointment? No, never. You never thought it would be useful to have | :30:42. | :30:49. | |
a say during Tony Blair's time? if you want special advisers, | :30:49. | :30:55. | |
people who are politicised, let them be known to be special | :30:55. | :31:01. | |
advisers, let them be on short-term contracts, and when you go let them | :31:01. | :31:06. | |
go as world. In the government which I served, it was contrary to | :31:06. | :31:14. | |
what is implied by the Conservative spokesman, there was cued reform of | :31:14. | :31:18. | |
the House of Lords, the Scottish parliament, it brought in a minimum | :31:18. | :31:22. | |
wage, reformed the whole of the public services, and it did that | :31:23. | :31:27. | |
with the permanent Civil Service, and it did it because ministers | :31:27. | :31:32. | |
lead. Civil servants are there to manage the direction in which you | :31:32. | :31:39. | |
move and tell you the downstream consequences. Are you saying they | :31:39. | :31:45. | |
are never a brake on reform? Never a block? No, the government agenda | :31:45. | :31:52. | |
should be put forward by ministers, that is what leadership is about. | :31:52. | :31:56. | |
The Civil Service are there to give a degree of stability, to be | :31:56. | :32:02. | |
neutral and impartial. I was deeply worried at the beginning of this | :32:02. | :32:10. | |
government when suddenly it was announced they were getting round, | :32:10. | :32:14. | |
or it was announced there would be early retirement for the Chief of | :32:14. | :32:19. | |
Defence Staff. I have dealt with people who are Chief of Defence | :32:19. | :32:23. | |
Staff, and that is the next step once you start crossing that red | :32:23. | :32:32. | |
line. Charlie Guthrie, Mike Jackson, you know, these people were not | :32:32. | :32:36. | |
horny-handed Socialists by any means. I suspect they may not even | :32:36. | :32:43. | |
sure my political opinions but they were more oil and impartial. Maybe | :32:43. | :32:47. | |
it does come down to the quality of the top level of the Civil Service. | :32:47. | :32:54. | |
Is it time to look at wider pool of talent? It is quite a restrictive | :32:54. | :33:04. | |
:33:04. | :33:24. | ||
process for career civil servants In the civil service reform the UN, | :33:24. | :33:29. | |
the idea of greater ministerial say, in the same bit of it is the same | :33:29. | :33:33. | |
requirement and this will be a temptation for them, that when they | :33:33. | :33:38. | |
feel they have a gap in expertise and knowledge, they can bring in | :33:38. | :33:43. | |
people on short-term basis. The danger at is that that will be used | :33:43. | :33:52. | |
as camouflage for bringing in The problem is a bit wider. The | :33:52. | :33:57. | |
special advisers are the way to do it, the politicised bid. I have | :33:57. | :34:00. | |
always been a great believer in then knowing things, rather than | :34:00. | :34:04. | |
believing things. What can pay a 23-year-old with a political | :34:04. | :34:08. | |
science degree teach my friend? Getting in people who really know | :34:08. | :34:13. | |
the subject is a good idea. What depresses me, Jo, the governing | :34:13. | :34:17. | |
marriage, there is the permanent Civil Service, the transient | :34:17. | :34:22. | |
politicians and now at the special advisers. The relationships between | :34:22. | :34:24. | |
the three parts have never been as poor as they are at the moment. It | :34:25. | :34:29. | |
is very scratchy, and two and a half years into government there is | :34:29. | :34:33. | |
a tendency to scapegoat. You blame the press office first, but these | :34:33. | :34:38. | |
are tossers who cannot do it! Then you blame the career civil servants | :34:38. | :34:43. | |
if you are an inadequate minister. It is almost choreographed, almost | :34:43. | :34:47. | |
exactly to the day we have this civil service reform white paper. | :34:47. | :34:51. | |
Two years into the coalition, blaming the staff. I can understand | :34:51. | :34:55. | |
it must be frustrating, because it is a tiring business being minister, | :34:55. | :34:59. | |
and in the Treasury just after the war Hugh Dalton, the Chancellor, | :34:59. | :35:06. | |
had a great outburst. He caught the Treasury men... You need congenital | :35:06. | :35:11. | |
snack pandas! It is not that simple, we have been here before, had good | :35:11. | :35:15. | |
ministers know how to deal with that. The governing marriage needs | :35:15. | :35:25. | |
:35:25. | :35:30. | ||
serious marriage counselling. They What about the news the Queen will | :35:30. | :35:36. | |
be an on server in Cabinet? Up they may get some useful contributions | :35:36. | :35:41. | |
for a change if she is involved. There was advice given by Gerald | :35:41. | :35:46. | |
Kaufman 30 years ago, and it was very succinct about the | :35:46. | :35:52. | |
relationship between ministers and civil servants. Civil servants | :35:52. | :35:56. | |
dislike two things about ministers - one is a minister who doesn't | :35:56. | :36:00. | |
know what he wants to do. The second is a minister who knows what | :36:00. | :36:06. | |
he wants to do, but will not listen to potential criticism and | :36:06. | :36:10. | |
explanation of the downstream consequences. If you get a minister | :36:10. | :36:15. | |
who knows what he wants to do, can assimilate information, can analyse | :36:15. | :36:19. | |
it with the degree of intellectual rigour, and communicated in a way | :36:19. | :36:28. | |
that carries people with him, that his leadership. It sounds like the | :36:28. | :36:36. | |
Sir Humphrey model is completely wrong then. Thank you. | :36:36. | :36:39. | |
Now, stop drinking the mulled wine and pay attention. If you hadn't | :36:39. | :36:41. | |
realised, there's still almost an entire week of parliamentary | :36:41. | :36:44. | |
business left. Here's what to expect in the week ahead. The Prime | :36:44. | :36:47. | |
Minister begins his week by updating the House of Commons on | :36:47. | :36:53. | |
one of his favourite subjects - Europe. Last week a summit kicked a | :36:53. | :36:56. | |
decision on closer fiscal and economic integration into the 2013 | :36:56. | :36:59. | |
long grass. But finance ministers did manage to agree on the creation | :36:59. | :37:01. | |
of a banking union within the eurozone. Tomorrow, the Queen will | :37:01. | :37:07. | |
attend Cabinet as an observer. This is believed to be the first time | :37:07. | :37:10. | |
this has happened since Queen Victoria's reign. And, in case you | :37:10. | :37:13. | |
wondered, it is expected that she'll sit beside the Prime | :37:13. | :37:18. | |
Minister. On Wednesday the Prime Minister and Ed Miliband come face | :37:18. | :37:21. | |
to face for the last time this year, though don't expect there to be | :37:21. | :37:25. | |
mince pies and brandy. It's also the day that Nick Pollard inquiry | :37:25. | :37:27. | |
into Newsnight's aborted investigation into child sex abuse | :37:27. | :37:31. | |
by Jimmy Savile is expected to be published. On Thursday, MPs pack up | :37:31. | :37:36. | |
as the House rises. And on Friday, if the Mayans are right, it's the | :37:36. | :37:39. | |
end of the world. Joining us from College Green outside Parliament is | :37:39. | :37:49. | |
:37:49. | :37:54. | ||
Kevin Maguire from the Mirror and Emily Ashton from the Sun. Kevin | :37:54. | :37:58. | |
Maguire, one gay marriage, the backbench rebellion is clear but it | :37:58. | :38:02. | |
will still pass the Commons, I would hazard a guess. What lasting | :38:02. | :38:09. | |
damage, if any, will this do to David Cameron? Am sure it will pass | :38:09. | :38:15. | |
the Commons because a sizable minority, not just a slim majority, | :38:15. | :38:25. | |
will back this. I think it will cause some lasting damage because | :38:25. | :38:29. | |
of the depth of the ill-feeling on his own side. It is getting people | :38:29. | :38:34. | |
out of bed now, his right wing, and we saw him signing this letter with | :38:34. | :38:38. | |
the House of Lords and some Labour MPs and it will keep on coming. It | :38:38. | :38:43. | |
is the last bit of that caring, compassionate cream Wash he had | :38:43. | :38:49. | |
during the election. He has shot the huskies, and it is only gay | :38:49. | :38:53. | |
marriage he has got left so he can't back off and neither will his | :38:54. | :38:59. | |
opponents so he will have to crush them at some point. On that basis, | :38:59. | :39:04. | |
is this David Cameron being brave, doing the right thing as he puts it, | :39:04. | :39:09. | |
modernising the party even if sections don't like it? It is a | :39:09. | :39:15. | |
personal call for David Cameron. If he wasn't bothered it would not be | :39:15. | :39:19. | |
worth the hassle but he obviously feels very strongly about it. It is | :39:19. | :39:24. | |
a noble aim to push it through, and he will do even if it chokes up | :39:24. | :39:29. | |
Parliament for months on end. As soon as it gets into the Lords, the | :39:29. | :39:32. | |
Conservative Peers will not like it one little bit and they are saying | :39:32. | :39:42. | |
:39:42. | :39:43. | ||
there was no mandate for this. In no manifesto, it was in no | :39:43. | :39:47. | |
manifesto so they can't force it through. A has there been chatter | :39:47. | :39:52. | |
about Nick Clegg's leadership? There has been for some time. I | :39:52. | :39:56. | |
don't want to say there will be a challenge, but the Liberal | :39:56. | :40:01. | |
Democrats know they are struggling. Some polls show them in fourth | :40:01. | :40:06. | |
place. We will be going to the general election in just over two | :40:06. | :40:09. | |
years and they are struggling to give themselves a clear definition. | :40:09. | :40:15. | |
Nick Clegg gave his speech today, wanting to claim some victories but | :40:15. | :40:18. | |
at the same time he wants to say we are different to the Conservative | :40:18. | :40:23. | |
Party. It is a difficult path for him to tread and he should have | :40:23. | :40:29. | |
started down saying we will have a business relationship rather than a | :40:29. | :40:33. | |
lovey-dovey relationship. I think he has left it too late. Do you | :40:33. | :40:40. | |
think so, or is there time to make this differentiation work for him | :40:40. | :40:45. | |
in the next few years? I think there is time. You can see him | :40:45. | :40:50. | |
thinking I really need to sort this out, and differentiate what the Lib | :40:50. | :40:58. | |
Dems stand for and what the Tories stand for. He reined back the cuts, | :40:58. | :41:04. | |
and he has also done it on the drugs - backing a royal commission | :41:04. | :41:08. | |
on drugs which David Cameron doesn't want and that is part of a | :41:08. | :41:18. | |
grand strategy to differentiate the party for the -- from the Tories. | :41:18. | :41:23. | |
It is an interesting strategy, as I was talking about earlier, to say | :41:23. | :41:28. | |
we will soften the madder elements of the Labour Party and | :41:28. | :41:33. | |
Conservative Party, but they don't want to alienate Labour completely | :41:33. | :41:37. | |
at this point if they have to end up in government with them. Labour | :41:37. | :41:43. | |
has always felt two weighs about the Lib Dems, we saw in 2010 a | :41:43. | :41:47. | |
large part of the Labour Party didn't want to scramble a deal with | :41:47. | :41:55. | |
them. They dislike the Liberal Democrats, very tribal. Then you | :41:56. | :42:02. | |
get those Lib Dem friendly MPs like Lord Adonis, who says are not sure | :42:02. | :42:10. | |
I would favour a coalition with the Lib Dems, I would favour a minority | :42:10. | :42:16. | |
Labour government. Nick Clegg is in a very difficult position, and as | :42:16. | :42:26. | |
:42:26. | :42:26. | ||
austerity continues to buy eight, he might say a royal commission on | :42:26. | :42:30. | |
drugs but that may not pass muster with the population with the | :42:30. | :42:37. | |
decline of living standards. What can pass muster with the | :42:37. | :42:43. | |
population? They have to show they are on the side of the working | :42:43. | :42:47. | |
classes, and really want to put money back in people's pockets. | :42:47. | :42:52. | |
With this benefit rise, the 1% rise in April, it is interesting they | :42:52. | :42:57. | |
have suddenly started to back the Tories on that. It is an | :42:57. | :43:05. | |
interesting manoeuvre they have achieved. Given most of those cuts | :43:05. | :43:10. | |
will be on people in work, they could fall into their own benefits | :43:10. | :43:16. | |
trap. Nearly the end of the parliamentary year, PMQs | :43:16. | :43:25. | |
performances. Ed Miliband has got a lot better. The best bit of PMQs is | :43:25. | :43:30. | |
watching David Cameron, who does not like to be challenged, and Ed | :43:30. | :43:35. | |
Balls just really knows how to wind him up with his hand signals, flat | :43:35. | :43:40. | |
lining economy, and insults from a seated position. That has been the | :43:40. | :43:48. | |
best bit. The score from you, Emily? Last week's PMQs was so | :43:48. | :43:52. | |
raucous on welfare, I'm not sure it will be that raucous on the end of | :43:52. | :43:58. | |
term this week, I may be wrong, but Ed Miliband has shown he can | :43:58. | :44:02. | |
perform most weeks now, although David Cameron has done well in | :44:02. | :44:08. | |
recent weeks. Thank you. We had a lovely backdrop behind you. | :44:08. | :44:11. | |
With me now is our Monday panel of MPs. The Conservative, George | :44:11. | :44:13. | |
Hollingbery who is also Parliamentary Private Secretary to | :44:13. | :44:16. | |
Theresa May, the Labour MP for East Lothian Fiona O'Donnell, and the | :44:16. | :44:26. | |
veteran Lib Dem Sir Malcolm Bruce. Is it beneficial for Nick Clegg to | :44:26. | :44:31. | |
be making a speech criticising siren voices amongst Conservative | :44:31. | :44:36. | |
about draconian cuts? With is an internal issue, they have got to | :44:36. | :44:42. | |
create some differentiation. Different tuition works two ways, | :44:42. | :44:47. | |
doesn't it? We are clear where we want to go, but it is only right | :44:47. | :44:50. | |
for me to a knowledge that the Liberal Democrats have had to take | :44:50. | :44:53. | |
some difficult decisions and they have been brave about things like | :44:53. | :44:59. | |
tuition fees, but to point out there are differences that this | :44:59. | :45:04. | |
stage is entirely to be expected. What about the claims they are | :45:04. | :45:08. | |
moderating the cruel aspect of the Conservative Party - is that how | :45:08. | :45:13. | |
you see yourself? There are large numbers of Conservative MPs who | :45:13. | :45:16. | |
understand the next general election will be won on the centre | :45:16. | :45:21. | |
ground. The says you are not the centre ground. I think he is wrong. | :45:21. | :45:24. | |
A large number of my colleagues will talk to me about the issues | :45:24. | :45:33. | |
that matter to people across the country, and to characterise us as | :45:33. | :45:42. | |
the stranger to the right is Do you accept that the Lib Dems are | :45:42. | :45:47. | |
moderating Conservative policy on welfare reform? That is what Nick | :45:47. | :45:51. | |
Clegg was claiming today. I expect he is making a case. I would like | :45:51. | :45:57. | |
to hear how he mitigated tuition fees. What we have had �12,000 per | :45:57. | :46:02. | |
year for tuition fees? He talked about and enabling society, and | :46:02. | :46:07. | |
education is key to that. What did he do on that issue? I hope we will | :46:07. | :46:12. | |
hear what they have been doing, and on VAT as well. He apologised, | :46:13. | :46:17. | |
didn't he? The thing that went some way in terms of explaining what | :46:17. | :46:22. | |
happened with tuition fees? -- do you think? It may explain it, but | :46:22. | :46:28. | |
it does not excuse it. In terms of benefits, the cap of 1% is | :46:28. | :46:33. | |
completely wiping out the benefits of raising the tax threshold, | :46:33. | :46:38. | |
giving with one hand and taking away with the other. On that point, | :46:38. | :46:41. | |
you say the Liberal Democrat have perhaps moderated conservative | :46:41. | :46:47. | |
excesses on welfare reform, so why are you signing up to that cap? | :46:47. | :46:50. | |
think the Conservatives would not have had any increase at all. | :46:50. | :46:54. | |
that true? The Lib Dems are making sure that the poorest and most | :46:54. | :46:59. | |
vulnerable are protected to some degree. But they are not. Many | :46:59. | :47:03. | |
Conservative MPs are not like George, very many of them take a | :47:03. | :47:08. | |
much more hardline, right-wing, uncaring stance, and I think the | :47:08. | :47:13. | |
country would be poorer if those Conservatives prevailed. Monstrous | :47:13. | :47:15. | |
characterisation of the Conservative Party. Even some of | :47:15. | :47:20. | |
those MPs who are more of the right are extremely caring people, | :47:20. | :47:23. | |
dealing with trafficking and all sorts of different issues that | :47:23. | :47:26. | |
really matter. Is it that just because they have a particular | :47:26. | :47:30. | |
political point of view and the economy and how it will work better, | :47:30. | :47:34. | |
the fact that it is fair that people on benefit should have the | :47:34. | :47:39. | |
same sort of crisis in income as people live and work, it is | :47:39. | :47:47. | |
monstrous. It is the right thing to be doing at this time. Do you agree | :47:47. | :47:49. | |
with the characterisation of people sitting with their blinds down | :47:49. | :47:56. | |
while others go out to work? When you stigmatise people like that, | :47:56. | :47:59. | |
particularly disabled people, sometimes some of the language is | :47:59. | :48:05. | |
very unfortunate and makes people feel much worse, people who support | :48:05. | :48:08. | |
voluntary organisations feel less inclined to give, and sometimes | :48:08. | :48:12. | |
disabled people... You have signed up to it. We want to protect | :48:12. | :48:17. | |
disabled people who cannot work. That is not happening. Why is it | :48:17. | :48:21. | |
not? It is not happening for a start because a mother or father | :48:21. | :48:26. | |
staying at home as a carer to look after a disabled adult, son or | :48:26. | :48:29. | |
daughter, is going to be worse off because of what the Government is | :48:29. | :48:34. | |
doing, and the Lib Dems are signing up to that. You cannot make | :48:34. | :48:38. | |
everybody better off. You said people with disabilities, you're | :48:38. | :48:41. | |
not protecting them. I am distinguishing between people who | :48:41. | :48:46. | |
cannot work and people who need support to get into work. Some | :48:46. | :48:49. | |
disabled people need support and want to work. Sometimes it is | :48:49. | :48:54. | |
people simply looking for a job, like the under 25s, who might not | :48:54. | :48:57. | |
be eligible for housing benefit if the Conservatives had their way. If | :48:57. | :49:02. | |
they move home looking for a job, they should be encouraged. | :49:03. | :49:06. | |
parent of a profoundly disabled young man or woman cannot go out | :49:06. | :49:10. | |
and look for work because they are full-time carers. The other thing | :49:10. | :49:14. | |
is they are contributing a huge amount to society and saving your | :49:14. | :49:18. | |
government money by staying at home and looking after them. Many people | :49:18. | :49:22. | |
would feel Labour has not had the courage to deal with the huge | :49:22. | :49:26. | |
welfare bill, right from the outset. It is all very well talking about | :49:26. | :49:30. | |
some of the details, but just the broad principle that Labour is not | :49:30. | :49:34. | |
signed up to wholeheartedly in terms of universal credit and a cap | :49:34. | :49:40. | |
on welfare. No, I don't agree. We were clear in the manifesto for the | :49:40. | :49:43. | |
last election that people who can work, choosing not to go to work | :49:43. | :49:48. | |
will not happen, but you have to create the jobs. And you need a | :49:48. | :49:52. | |
scheme that works, whereas the Government's work programme is | :49:52. | :49:56. | |
letting down the unemployed. marriage, do you agree with those | :49:56. | :50:00. | |
who are accusing the Prime Minister of acting without a mandate on gay | :50:00. | :50:05. | |
marriage? First of all, we had the contract for qualities in which | :50:05. | :50:09. | |
this particular promise was made, the examination of the issue of gay | :50:09. | :50:12. | |
marriage, and it has been looked at, and the Prime Minister is convinced | :50:12. | :50:16. | |
that this is something he has to deliver. Do you agree with it? | :50:16. | :50:22. | |
matter of principle, absolutely I do. Gay people should be allowed to | :50:22. | :50:27. | |
call themselves married. What you save your colleagues to say that | :50:27. | :50:30. | |
there is no mandate, this is not an issue that is important, and we | :50:30. | :50:34. | |
should not be pushing it through? do not think you can say that | :50:35. | :50:41. | |
equalities issues are not important. What you say Jon Collins? I cannot | :50:41. | :50:45. | |
speak for all of my colleagues. There is a balancing of rights. Yes, | :50:45. | :50:48. | |
it is important to create the qualities, but at the same time we | :50:48. | :50:51. | |
have to understand that people on both sides of the argument are | :50:51. | :50:55. | |
passionate about it, and I have written to my constituents who have | :50:55. | :50:58. | |
corresponded with me, saying I want to be convinced that is not | :50:58. | :51:02. | |
something that can be overturned in court, particularly courts which we | :51:02. | :51:06. | |
do not control. I think the quadruple lock went a long way | :51:06. | :51:11. | |
towards that, but I will wait to hear the arguments on both sides. | :51:11. | :51:15. | |
Was the Government right to make it illegal for gay couples to marry in | :51:15. | :51:17. | |
the Church of England or Church of Wales without consulting either | :51:17. | :51:21. | |
church? I think it was strange that the judges were not consulted. I | :51:21. | :51:25. | |
take the view that if you are against gay marriage, you should | :51:25. | :51:30. | |
not marry somebody of the same sex! It is about religious freedom. I | :51:30. | :51:35. | |
personally think that any church that wants to be able to marry | :51:35. | :51:38. | |
people of the same-sex of different sexes should be able to do so. | :51:38. | :51:43. | |
it was wrong of the Government, which surprised a lot of people, to | :51:43. | :51:47. | |
bring in this illegality element, so the Church of England will not | :51:47. | :51:52. | |
be able to marry gay couples. did surprise me, and the Lib Dems | :51:52. | :51:55. | |
take a simple view that the government should not be able to | :51:55. | :51:59. | |
determine who adults are able to love or marry. That should be a | :51:59. | :52:03. | |
matter of personal conscience and choice. I think it should before a | :52:03. | :52:06. | |
judge to decide if it wants to marry people of the same sex will | :52:06. | :52:09. | |
only people of different sexes. I think that should be a matter of | :52:09. | :52:14. | |
religious freedom. Ed Miliband urged David Cameron to fast-track | :52:14. | :52:18. | |
legislation. If he is so committed, why isn't he within Labour MPs? | :52:18. | :52:21. | |
Because it is a matter of conscience, and we're all going to | :52:21. | :52:26. | |
agree on this, on both sides of the argument people have sincerely held | :52:26. | :52:30. | |
convictions, and I think, you know, it would not be appropriate to whip | :52:30. | :52:35. | |
Labour MPs on this issue. Right... Just one other thing, briefly, | :52:35. | :52:41. | |
before we go, we sport about the polling, and on UKIP, Eric Pickles | :52:41. | :52:44. | |
suggested UKIP should be taken seriously and the Conservatives can | :52:45. | :52:49. | |
win back support by engaging with it, but the Transport Secretary | :52:49. | :52:52. | |
told the Sunday Politics he would only start worrying when UKIP | :52:52. | :52:56. | |
started winning by-elections. Conservative politician who does | :52:56. | :52:59. | |
not take the threat of UKIP seriously is being foolish. Any | :52:59. | :53:03. | |
number of seats with small majorities, we have to engage with | :53:03. | :53:06. | |
the arguments, and I have been clear for a long time that it is | :53:06. | :53:10. | |
not a matter of pandering to their views, but explaining to people | :53:10. | :53:13. | |
where the weight of the argument sits on the key things that face | :53:13. | :53:16. | |
the country, the economy, welfare, education, and all those issues | :53:16. | :53:20. | |
which actually bother people every day. The government has been doing | :53:20. | :53:23. | |
fantastic work in all those areas, and it is up to us to make that | :53:23. | :53:28. | |
argument and it tell people that if they want to see a country in 10 or | :53:28. | :53:33. | |
20 years' time they can be proud of, then a UKIP vote is not one to make. | :53:33. | :53:37. | |
Are you looking forward to next week? The festive atmosphere on the | :53:37. | :53:40. | |
high street with carol singers and Christmas lights? Would it spoil it | :53:40. | :53:43. | |
for you if the limited Father Christmas was brought to you by | :53:44. | :53:48. | |
Coca-Cola, McDonald's or Toys R Us? Austerity cuts are making councils | :53:48. | :53:51. | |
think long and hard about giving their lights over to advertising. | :53:51. | :53:54. | |
This week Eric Pickles will tell local authorities how much money | :53:55. | :53:58. | |
they can expect, and he will not be mistaken for Santa Claus. Two years | :53:58. | :54:03. | |
ago they were looking at cuts of 12%, and further savings are likely. | :54:03. | :54:06. | |
For the Sunday Politics and the North East, Mark Denten has been | :54:06. | :54:15. | |
Christmas lights in Newcastle, sparkly, pretty, a cost to the | :54:15. | :54:21. | |
council here of �140,000 per year. But with �90 million worth of | :54:21. | :54:24. | |
savings divined, the council is looking to cut the cost of | :54:24. | :54:28. | |
Christmas. It will continue to pay for the light until 2013, but after | :54:28. | :54:32. | |
that it will be up to commercial sponsors, and that means if you are | :54:32. | :54:38. | |
a company, your name could be of there. The council says both brazen | :54:38. | :54:41. | |
monument and the Tyne Bridge could carry temporary sponsorship to pay | :54:41. | :54:47. | |
for the sparkly, twinkly things. -- Ray's Monument. We cannot turn away | :54:47. | :54:51. | |
any support financially that will help our city. If you have got a | :54:51. | :54:54. | |
business proposition to help keep the lights switched on, we want to | :54:54. | :54:58. | |
hear from me now. In the past, we might have considered naming | :54:58. | :55:02. | |
companies to be a bit gaudy, but to keep the lights switched on, it | :55:02. | :55:07. | |
will have to be a little bit gaudy. Private companies already provide | :55:07. | :55:10. | |
�50,000 every year towards the Christmas lights in the city. But | :55:10. | :55:14. | |
what people want to see sponsors on local landmarks? I think it would | :55:14. | :55:20. | |
be a shame, a real shame. I can see the position they're in. I suppose | :55:20. | :55:26. | |
it would be all right. If it is not too big, if it does not fill up the | :55:26. | :55:31. | |
whole Monument of the Tyne Bridge. It depends who is sponsoring its. | :55:31. | :55:34. | |
It is not just Newcastle looking closely at the cost of Christmas | :55:34. | :55:38. | |
lights. On South Tyneside, the budget has been held at �200,000 | :55:38. | :55:44. | |
this year. In Redcar and Cleveland, the budget has fallen to �50,000 | :55:44. | :55:50. | |
from �90,000. Carlisle's Christmas decorations now cost �37,900 this | :55:50. | :55:56. | |
year, compared to over �51,000 last year. Sparkly, pretty and for our | :55:57. | :56:06. | |
cash-strapped councils, increasingly unaffordable. | :56:06. | :56:11. | |
Are you prepared for gaudy to keep the lights on? Oh, definitely. I am | :56:11. | :56:14. | |
not going to spoil the Christmas party, it is all part of the | :56:14. | :56:17. | |
experience of shopping in the dark of the winter months, I am all for | :56:17. | :56:23. | |
it. So you would be happy for company names up in lights? I was | :56:23. | :56:27. | |
in Oxford Street the other night, and Marmite are sponsoring that, | :56:27. | :56:32. | |
love it or hate it. Is that what it says? Absolutely. A price worth | :56:32. | :56:37. | |
paying? By love Christmas lights, my nephews and my mother-in-law | :56:37. | :56:41. | |
love the Christmas lights. Piccadilly Circus is very well lit | :56:41. | :56:45. | |
up with sponsored advertising, so I see no problems with having | :56:45. | :56:48. | |
suitable sponsorship to keep the lights going. But what is suitable | :56:48. | :56:52. | |
sponsorship? We do not want to go down the line of Greek football | :56:52. | :56:56. | |
teams which now have a brothel and an undertaker sponsoring them, I | :56:56. | :57:00. | |
would not like to say that on Christmas lights. That would give | :57:00. | :57:05. | |
it a certain shyness a choir! Where you draw the line in who can have | :57:05. | :57:08. | |
sponsorship questionnaire presumably it is a matter for local | :57:08. | :57:12. | |
councils. If local businesses want to make contributions, well, | :57:12. | :57:17. | |
fantastic. They are quite expensive, looking at the prices. They are | :57:17. | :57:21. | |
more expensive than I thought they were. With local authorities in | :57:21. | :57:24. | |
great difficulty, it is a sensible thing for them to decide themselves | :57:24. | :57:29. | |
which local sponsors could do it. Often you see on roundabouts, you | :57:29. | :57:33. | |
see very nice garden decoration sponsored by suitable companies. | :57:33. | :57:37. | |
Why not for the Christmas lights? What about your new year's | :57:37. | :57:41. | |
political resolution? I know it is a bit early, but I bet you have | :57:41. | :57:45. | |
thought about it. I have indeed, and for me it will be about | :57:45. | :57:47. | |
standing up for the most of vulnerable people in my | :57:47. | :57:50. | |
constituency who will be affected by welfare reform, starting with | :57:50. | :57:56. | |
East Lothian. Sticking to the line very firmly! To do the job for my | :57:56. | :58:01. | |
boss at the moment, to make sure I get as much of that right as I can! | :58:01. | :58:05. | |
Who is your boss? In this case and talking about the Home Secretary. | :58:05. | :58:10. | |
The best thing we can deliver is a thriving economy. And finally, last | :58:10. | :58:16. | |
but not least... Well, to try to get fitter than I have been! If I | :58:16. | :58:21. | |
can, to hold my head up high and feel proud of what the Liberal | :58:21. | :58:24. | |
Democrats are doing in difficult circumstances, which I think we can | :58:24. | :58:26. | |
show positive achievements as well as the negative things we have | :58:26. | :58:30. | |
prevented. It sounds like you have all practised this, I thought it | :58:30. | :58:36. | |
was going to be a surprise question! I have not going to -- I | :58:36. | :58:39. | |
have not got a new year's resolution yet, but I have got time | :58:39. | :58:44. | |
to think about it. The One O'Clock News is starting over on BBC One | :58:44. | :58:47. |