Browse content similar to 20/12/2012. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Afternoon, folks. Welcome to the Daily Politics. Another arrest in | :00:40. | :00:42. | |
the Andrew Mitchell case with what was Plebgate now turning into | :00:42. | :00:46. | |
Plodgate. What will this row do to relations between a Conservative- | :00:46. | :00:50. | |
led government and the Police? The government introduces a bill to cap | :00:50. | :00:54. | |
benefit increases to 1%. A sensible and fair economy or an attack on | :00:54. | :00:59. | |
the poor? A technical education as highly regarded as the best | :00:59. | :01:03. | |
academic institutions? We ask if University technical colleges are | :01:03. | :01:08. | |
the answer. And, 'tis the season to be jolly! What do MPs' Christmas | :01:08. | :01:18. | |
:01:18. | :01:20. | ||
All that in the next hour. With us for the duration Conservative peer, | :01:20. | :01:24. | |
Ken Baker. He used to be Education Secretary. And Home Secretary too. | :01:24. | :01:28. | |
We'll be serving up a feast of politics for him to get his teeth | :01:28. | :01:31. | |
into. Let's start with the ongoing controversy surrounding the role of | :01:31. | :01:37. | |
the police in the resignation of former Chief Whip Andrew Mitchell. | :01:37. | :01:40. | |
It's emerged over the last few days that a man purporting to be member | :01:40. | :01:43. | |
of the public who emailed their eyewitness account of the incident | :01:43. | :01:46. | |
at the Downing Street gates was actually a serving police officer | :01:46. | :01:49. | |
who did not in fact witness the events. A police officer was | :01:49. | :01:53. | |
arrested at the weekend. And this morning, a second man who does not | :01:54. | :02:00. | |
work for the police was arrested. The Police Federation, the union | :02:00. | :02:03. | |
that represents rank and file officers, made a lot of running on | :02:03. | :02:08. | |
this story back October. We could hardly keep them off the air waves | :02:08. | :02:13. | |
them. But have refused our repeated requests for an interview. But we | :02:13. | :02:20. | |
do have with us a former Home Secretary. I said at the start, | :02:20. | :02:26. | |
this Pleb-gate is now turning into Plod-gate. It is clear certain | :02:26. | :02:31. | |
police and the Police Federation are moving into the frame? This is | :02:31. | :02:36. | |
a very serious crisis. The police have had a bad year. Hillsborough, | :02:36. | :02:40. | |
therefore supplied evidence. In Rotherham, we didn't follow up on a | :02:40. | :02:44. | |
young girls being turned into prostitutes and in the Leverson | :02:44. | :02:50. | |
Inquiry,. And now it there is Plod- gate for that this is serious | :02:51. | :02:54. | |
because if the public don't trust the police, you have a serious | :02:54. | :02:58. | |
problem in society. Now we have a serving police officer making up | :02:58. | :03:05. | |
complete fiction in an e-mail in which the Prime Minister almost | :03:05. | :03:08. | |
fired Andrew Mitchell. He did believe him and has been proved to | :03:08. | :03:12. | |
be right so far, so it's a big problem for the police and the | :03:12. | :03:18. | |
Police Federation. They politicise the police. The police must be | :03:18. | :03:21. | |
above politics in our country but the Police Federation decided to | :03:21. | :03:27. | |
become a lobbying, extremely aggressively, determined to get a | :03:27. | :03:31. | |
Cabinet minister. Because they were very opposed to what the Home | :03:31. | :03:36. | |
Secretary was doing, looking into their pay, pensions. Therefore, | :03:36. | :03:41. | |
they became political agencies. I'm not in the least bit surprised | :03:41. | :03:46. | |
they're not take your calls to come on. They are in real trouble. | :03:46. | :03:51. | |
police officer who was barely literate when you read the e-mail. | :03:51. | :03:55. | |
He doesn't know the difference between digest it and disgusted. | :03:55. | :04:02. | |
The one thing the police must not do is falsify evidence. They do. | :04:02. | :04:10. | |
They did in the case of Mendez, the man who was shot, the case of the | :04:10. | :04:14. | |
man who was struck down at the G20 demonstrations. They falsified | :04:14. | :04:21. | |
evidence there. And now, at least, an investigation is to be done into | :04:21. | :04:25. | |
whether evidence in that the log, and we know from this e-mail has | :04:25. | :04:31. | |
been falsified, too. The question therefore comes To my mind, can the | :04:31. | :04:35. | |
Metropolitan Police be trusted to investigate itself? At this stage, | :04:35. | :04:41. | |
we have to do it and the commissioner has to do it. I gather | :04:41. | :04:43. | |
there are 30 police officers investigating this so it's a | :04:43. | :04:47. | |
thorough inquiry. He has got to find out and report very quickly on | :04:47. | :04:53. | |
this, because this could run away, the situation. What has happened in | :04:53. | :04:58. | |
the last two months in this country, this been a concerted attack by the | :04:58. | :05:05. | |
Police Federation to destroy a Tory Cabinet minister, Alastair McAlpine. | :05:05. | :05:11. | |
A lot of it based on false evidence. It was going for it. Yes, the | :05:11. | :05:16. | |
moment, we can trust the commissioner to do this. | :05:16. | :05:19. | |
commander, the head of the most important police force and the | :05:19. | :05:24. | |
country, has said he's taken a strong public stance backing of the | :05:24. | :05:30. | |
police who were at the gate that night, and whose log provided the | :05:30. | :05:34. | |
supposedly damning evidence over which there are, as we did on this | :05:34. | :05:39. | |
programme yesterday, real questions about what Mr Mitchell said. | :05:39. | :05:43. | |
Incredibly real questions over what there was anybody on the other side | :05:43. | :05:49. | |
of the gate. He has backed them to the hilt. Most people watching this | :05:49. | :05:54. | |
will wonder how he can investigate something where his public position | :05:54. | :06:00. | |
is so unsafe? He could find out who those two policemen had contact | :06:00. | :06:04. | |
with through their mobile phones immediately after the event. Who | :06:04. | :06:09. | |
did they speak to? The Police Federation? Is someone their | :06:09. | :06:14. | |
guiding some of this? How did get to the newspapers? Obviously, it | :06:15. | :06:19. | |
was sold to the Sun newspaper for nothing. There was a rumour | :06:19. | :06:23. | |
whirling around last night, when the original story went to the Sun | :06:23. | :06:28. | |
newspaper, it did not contain any of the words which, in the end, | :06:28. | :06:33. | |
became so toxic. Let's see it that comes out in the inquiry because, | :06:33. | :06:38. | |
if it did, it's very damning. It's a much bigger problem actually. | :06:38. | :06:43. | |
You've got to re-establish trust in the police. If the country doesn't, | :06:43. | :06:46. | |
then it's your close to lawlessness and anarchy. It's an essential | :06:46. | :06:51. | |
thing. Chief constables across the country and the Home Secretary and | :06:51. | :06:54. | |
everybody has got to restore confidence in the police. The | :06:54. | :06:58. | |
police must show that themselves. Very interesting coming from a | :06:58. | :07:03. | |
former Home Secretary. Now, how much should benefits rise by every | :07:03. | :07:07. | |
year? Welfare benefits? By the rate of inflation or in line with | :07:07. | :07:11. | |
earnings? Or by less than both? Well, at the Autumn Statement, the | :07:12. | :07:14. | |
Chancellor announced a cap of 1% on increases in most benefits, which | :07:15. | :07:20. | |
is less than both. Today the government introduces a bill to | :07:20. | :07:25. | |
make that law. Here's Jo with more. Social security benefits and tax | :07:25. | :07:28. | |
credits usually go up automatically every year by the rate of inflation, | :07:28. | :07:35. | |
so next spring would have seen them But in his autumn statement earlier | :07:35. | :07:37. | |
this month, George Osborne said that most payments would increase | :07:37. | :07:42. | |
by the lower amount of 1% for the next three years. This real-terms | :07:42. | :07:44. | |
cut will affect those receiving working-age benefits including the | :07:44. | :07:46. | |
main elements of jobseeker's allowance, housing benefit and | :07:46. | :07:53. | |
elements of working tax credit. The Chancellor says it's necessary | :07:53. | :07:57. | |
because benefits have risen more quickly than wages. And he says the | :07:57. | :08:01. | |
move will help build a welfare system that is fair to the working | :08:01. | :08:10. | |
the Treasury, reaching �3.1 billion in 2017-18. Labour will oppose the | :08:11. | :08:13. | |
move, which they call a tax on strivers because it affects many | :08:14. | :08:18. | |
people who work and receive benefits. It's not clear whether | :08:18. | :08:21. | |
the public agree, with one poll today showing a substantial | :08:21. | :08:24. | |
majority in favour, and the other showing the public more evenly | :08:24. | :08:30. | |
split. But it's clear it will be one of the big political dividing | :08:30. | :08:36. | |
With us now is Harriet Baldwin. A Parliamentary Private Secretary in | :08:36. | :08:39. | |
the Department of Work and Pensions. And Labour's Shadow employment | :08:39. | :08:49. | |
:08:49. | :08:50. | ||
minister, Stephen Timms. Welcome to you both. The bill's a wording says | :08:50. | :08:53. | |
it will make provisions relating to the out rating of certain social | :08:54. | :08:57. | |
security benefits and tax credits. Should it not really be called | :08:57. | :09:02. | |
George Osborne to welfare trap for the Labour Party? I think that | :09:02. | :09:06. | |
would be a very good name for it because I want to reassure a lot of | :09:06. | :09:11. | |
your viewers today, a lot of pensioners watching, that their | :09:11. | :09:17. | |
pensions next year will go up more than inflation, 2.5%, on top of a | :09:17. | :09:22. | |
5% increase last year. Also, for those on incapacity benefit, the | :09:23. | :09:27. | |
employment support allowance, that will also go up by 2.2% in line | :09:27. | :09:34. | |
with inflation, as well disability living allowances. Out-of-work | :09:34. | :09:39. | |
benefits will go up by 1%. We don't know if inflation will be 2.2%. It | :09:39. | :09:43. | |
could be more or less for pensioners. Let me sideline that | :09:43. | :09:49. | |
for a moment. Are you sure that your benefit measures are really | :09:49. | :09:54. | |
that popular? There is a poll in the Independent today showing 49% | :09:54. | :09:59. | |
agree with the CAP and 42% disagree. There's not much of the difference. | :09:59. | :10:03. | |
I think these are difficult decisions in an environment where | :10:03. | :10:07. | |
you highlight the fact that people who are in work are seeing their | :10:07. | :10:11. | |
wages go up at a slower rate than inflation, so what we're trying to | :10:11. | :10:14. | |
do is think about the fairness in terms of those out of work on | :10:14. | :10:19. | |
benefit, and those in work who, over the last five years, have seen | :10:19. | :10:25. | |
their income to rise 10%, whereas those out of work have seen this, | :10:25. | :10:32. | |
by 20%. We were very generous last time around. Now you are taking it | :10:32. | :10:36. | |
back. Increasing it at a faster rate. The Chancellor was very | :10:36. | :10:41. | |
generous to those who get the child tax credit on the lowest incomes, | :10:41. | :10:46. | |
which went up 11% in his first Budget. We are trying to be really | :10:46. | :10:49. | |
fair in terms of that relationship between those in work and out of | :10:49. | :10:54. | |
work. The case is this. We understand a lot of the people on | :10:54. | :10:59. | |
these welfare benefits are actually working. They are not the figure | :10:59. | :11:04. | |
behind a curtain, the Chancellor is fond of talking about. 60% are | :11:04. | :11:10. | |
working. Exactly. If you were in the public sector, your pay goes up | :11:11. | :11:15. | |
by 1% after having been frozen for a while, but you are working, so | :11:15. | :11:20. | |
why should those on benefits be getting more than that? We have | :11:20. | :11:25. | |
supported that 1% cap, but what we have said is it should be done in a | :11:25. | :11:28. | |
fair way, so those who are the highest paid get less than 1% | :11:28. | :11:36. | |
increase, those lower get more than 1%. 1% does not affect those on | :11:36. | :11:41. | |
very low public sector work. That's right. Our concern is that this was | :11:41. | :11:45. | |
presented as something that only hits people out of work but it | :11:45. | :11:49. | |
doesn't. The majority are in work. And the terrible thing I think | :11:49. | :11:53. | |
about this is that, at the moment this is being done, April next year, | :11:53. | :11:58. | |
the Government will increase, a big tax handout to the very highest | :11:58. | :12:03. | |
paid, earning more than �150,000 a year. If you earn more than �1 | :12:04. | :12:08. | |
billion, you will get a tax cut next April have over �100,000 | :12:08. | :12:12. | |
course up can I make an important point here because under his | :12:12. | :12:18. | |
Government, if you are under �6,000 a year, you pay income tax under | :12:18. | :12:21. | |
Gordon Brown. We have raised that will the we have frozen council tax, | :12:21. | :12:26. | |
the television licence, and we're trying to control the bills that | :12:26. | :12:31. | |
families have to pay for from their income. How can they afford these | :12:31. | :12:35. | |
play-offs at the BBC if you have frozen the licence fees? It's not | :12:35. | :12:44. | |
fair. -- pay-offs. Let me get back to the serious point. We accept | :12:44. | :12:48. | |
that a lot of people in work will be limited to the 1% but because of | :12:48. | :12:52. | |
the rise in the personal allowance, there's now a substantial chunk of | :12:52. | :12:58. | |
income in the first part of your income, approaching �10,000, is tax | :12:58. | :13:05. | |
free, and that's a big help to those on the low incomes. | :13:05. | :13:10. | |
greatly outweighs increase from the increase... They are losing out. By | :13:10. | :13:15. | |
a large amount. For those on the lowest wages, that's what we're | :13:15. | :13:19. | |
talking about, starting out in work, trying to move up the working | :13:19. | :13:24. | |
ladder, where we really want to reward aspiration, taking on | :13:24. | :13:27. | |
additional work, we want to make sure that those decisions are | :13:27. | :13:31. | |
rewarded whereas, under the Labour government, effectively you were | :13:31. | :13:35. | |
taxed at a very low income and then had to wait for Gordon Brown to | :13:35. | :13:39. | |
give the money back to you. You became more and more dependent on | :13:39. | :13:47. | |
the state. The net effect on an average family, the which has two | :13:47. | :13:56. | |
children, about �534 worse off by the combination. A little bit extra | :13:56. | :14:00. | |
through the increase in a tax allowance, a substantial reduction | :14:00. | :14:04. | |
in their income through the reduced uprating of working tax credits, | :14:04. | :14:09. | |
and its people in work affected by this. Does that calculation include | :14:09. | :14:18. | |
assumptions about indirect taxes? No. Purely the impact of direct. | :14:18. | :14:24. | |
It's a different matter, so, in the end, you're helping them there, | :14:24. | :14:28. | |
limiting here, he says the overall impact is some body on average | :14:28. | :14:34. | |
earnings is substantially worse off. Particularly if they have children. | :14:34. | :14:39. | |
100 per defy pounds a year for the average person better off and | :14:39. | :14:45. | |
children -- �125 a year for the better of person. Effectively, | :14:45. | :14:50. | |
Stephen has voted for someone like myself to keep my child benefit for | :14:50. | :14:56. | |
I have not seen the Treasury figure in the statement. The Treasury is | :14:56. | :15:05. | |
saying the average family is 125p better off. Where does it say this? | :15:05. | :15:10. | |
I'm just wondering. I know where your figure comes from. I got my | :15:10. | :15:14. | |
figures from the Treasury and I can find out the source for you. It's | :15:14. | :15:18. | |
such a big difference. philosophical difference, there is | :15:18. | :15:23. | |
a difference here. We want people who want to move into work, who | :15:23. | :15:28. | |
aspire to earn more, move up the working ladder, with the universal | :15:28. | :15:35. | |
credit next year, taking out that 16 hours, where people got trapped, | :15:35. | :15:39. | |
to really help people move up the innings spectrum whereas the Labour | :15:39. | :15:43. | |
approach was much more to tax you at a lower level of income, and | :15:43. | :15:53. | |
give you some of your money back in We have exactly the combination of | :15:53. | :15:56. | |
policies we had in the 1980s which led to the highest rate of child | :15:56. | :16:01. | |
poverty in Europe. A cut in the highest rate of income tax and a | :16:01. | :16:04. | |
restriction on the uprating of benefits for up the highest rate of | :16:04. | :16:08. | |
tax will be higher than it was under 10 years of Labour. Exactly. | :16:09. | :16:15. | |
It has come down at a time when the Exchequer is in great difficulty. | :16:15. | :16:21. | |
Off they has issued a document over how much these tax rates Ghana. | :16:21. | :16:29. | |
President Hollande. Negative so Lyn Byl -- 7 billion. A negative effect. | :16:29. | :16:36. | |
We don't know. I predict you again, even at 45p, which is high by | :16:36. | :16:40. | |
international standards, it will be higher than every year of a Labour | :16:40. | :16:44. | |
government. We are now in a time of austerity when the Exchequer is | :16:44. | :16:48. | |
taking money away from that families, mainly low-income | :16:48. | :16:52. | |
families, this is not a time to be giving money to the highest paid. | :16:52. | :16:59. | |
You can have the final word on this side. I want to know why Stephen | :16:59. | :17:04. | |
has objected to me losing my child benefit, why he has objected to a | :17:04. | :17:07. | |
cap on the overall benefits that equate it with the average working | :17:07. | :17:11. | |
family in terms of what they can take home. Let me leave these | :17:11. | :17:16. | |
questions hanging. Ken Baker has been very patient. It is a good | :17:16. | :17:21. | |
debate. Stephen, you have a real problem in your party. In office | :17:21. | :17:25. | |
Ulex three things run out of control. Public expenditure in | :17:25. | :17:29. | |
relation to welfare payments. You've got to get away from a | :17:29. | :17:33. | |
society that is so dependent on welfare and that is the thrust of | :17:33. | :17:39. | |
what Iain Duncan Smith is doing. Increasing the level of tax... It | :17:39. | :17:44. | |
is now �10,000 where you don't pay tax. What you are saying is that if | :17:44. | :17:48. | |
there was a Labour government, we will not do much about welfare. We | :17:48. | :17:53. | |
believe welfare should be paid to come what may. It is a critical | :17:53. | :17:59. | |
test. Her I will give Stephen Timms the final word. The problem the | :17:59. | :18:03. | |
Conservative Party has is its central economic policy has not | :18:03. | :18:07. | |
worked. We were told of this policy was implemented we would have | :18:07. | :18:10. | |
steady growth and falling unemployment, but unemployment is | :18:10. | :18:15. | |
high and it is projected to go up next year. That is why these cuts | :18:15. | :18:18. | |
have to be made and working families are paying the price. | :18:18. | :18:28. | |
:18:28. | :18:31. | ||
have record numbers of work. It is a for! -- a fall. One of the few | :18:31. | :18:34. | |
success stories in economic policies from this government has | :18:34. | :18:40. | |
been the fall in unemployment. Much to the surprise of most of the | :18:40. | :18:50. | |
:18:50. | :18:51. | ||
Economist. The OBR said it would go up to 8.3%. I thought it would be | :18:51. | :18:58. | |
3% by next December. A very fair point. They should suspend all | :18:58. | :19:01. | |
economic forecasts. How can you judge how the economy will grow? | :19:02. | :19:09. | |
You can't! The thank you, Merry Christmas. | :19:09. | :19:14. | |
We will be talking about this in the new year, that's my prediction! | :19:14. | :19:17. | |
Speak to employers in manufacturing and engineering firms and they'll | :19:17. | :19:20. | |
often tell you that young people don't leave school with the skills | :19:20. | :19:22. | |
needed for the world of work. Well, university technical colleges, | :19:22. | :19:27. | |
which are popping up around the country, seek to address that. | :19:27. | :19:29. | |
They're supposed to combine practical learning alongside core | :19:29. | :19:32. | |
GCSE and A levels and the Government's already pledged to | :19:32. | :19:36. | |
open at least 24 of them by 2014. They were the brain child of our | :19:36. | :19:39. | |
very own guest of the day, Lord Baker, but how do they operate? We | :19:39. | :19:42. | |
sent Susana Mendonsa to take a look at one. | :19:42. | :19:47. | |
It might look like a factory but this is actually a classroom in a | :19:47. | :19:50. | |
new university technical college in Birmingham. The people operating | :19:50. | :19:56. | |
this machine are teenagers. Fees 14 year-olds are lose -- using the | :19:56. | :20:00. | |
core engineering skills that would only be taught at apprentices | :20:00. | :20:05. | |
usually. That focus on technical education would better prepare | :20:05. | :20:10. | |
young people for the world of work. That starts with the hours, 8:30am | :20:10. | :20:14. | |
to 5:30pm, which 16 year-olds a share and it would have only got | :20:14. | :20:20. | |
used. They are long. It took me a while to get used to. I could get | :20:20. | :20:24. | |
used to it and getting used to it is really good because it prepares | :20:24. | :20:28. | |
you for work. I show letter of school because she thought she | :20:28. | :20:33. | |
would do better here. Most grammar schools have higher expectations, | :20:33. | :20:36. | |
everybody is expected to be on the same level. When you come to a | :20:36. | :20:39. | |
place with different people, you get more of the chance to stand out | :20:39. | :20:43. | |
for things you are good at so you get her acknowledged more. | :20:43. | :20:47. | |
another classroom, another technical skill. They are making | :20:47. | :20:52. | |
prototypes of electronic devices like cameras. This is one of the | :20:52. | :20:56. | |
new wave of university technical colleges the Government is backing. | :20:56. | :21:01. | |
UCTs like this one came to-14 to 19 and euros they specialise in things | :21:01. | :21:05. | |
like engineering. They are also sponsored by the employers or | :21:05. | :21:10. | |
universities. The principal say they fill a gap. It is important to | :21:10. | :21:13. | |
have a balance in this country. They are not for everybody. Not | :21:14. | :21:18. | |
everybody wants to do engineering and science. Where students do one | :21:18. | :21:25. | |
that focus can that specialisation, UCTs are well placed to provide | :21:25. | :21:29. | |
excellent. Outside the classrooms that some of the young people are | :21:29. | :21:39. | |
also been employed as in princesses. Kaka -- apprentices. While we are | :21:39. | :21:44. | |
here we get the practical side of it. At university, we get Feighery. | :21:44. | :21:48. | |
It balances. You know what you were doing on the theory side and the | :21:48. | :21:52. | |
practical side. The managing director support more technical | :21:52. | :21:57. | |
education, but says UCTs don't get done enough to get young people | :21:57. | :22:02. | |
into the right mindset. challenge is to make kids are aware | :22:02. | :22:07. | |
that this is work, you are not going to school any more, it is not | :22:07. | :22:12. | |
looking up at a teacher and looking at your laptop. It is about work. | :22:12. | :22:17. | |
Understand what work is all about. Getting out of bed at a reasonable | :22:17. | :22:21. | |
time, being responsible, bringing something to the job you do. | :22:21. | :22:24. | |
Producing young people with the skills needed for modern businesses | :22:24. | :22:30. | |
is one of the aims. Teaching unions have warned that separating | :22:30. | :22:32. | |
technical dedication from mainstream schools could create a | :22:32. | :22:38. | |
two level system. -- technical education. | :22:38. | :22:40. | |
Joining us now is the Shadow Schools Minister, Kevin Brennan, | :22:40. | :22:43. | |
and Andrew Robinson, who runs an engineering firm near Bedford. Tell | :22:43. | :22:49. | |
us what your business does. We may control systems for people like | :22:49. | :22:54. | |
Jaguar Land Rover, British Aerospace. We make their kit work. | :22:54. | :22:58. | |
We need technically interested children to join us after they've | :22:58. | :23:01. | |
left school and help our company grow because the skill shortage we | :23:02. | :23:09. | |
are suffering from his holding our business back. For you, University | :23:09. | :23:13. | |
technical colleges, I would think, are a great thing? We would hope so. | :23:13. | :23:18. | |
We are not very aware of them even though we have promoted ourselves | :23:18. | :23:21. | |
and tried to get involved with many different aspects of what is going | :23:21. | :23:27. | |
on recently. Engaging with them we find very hard. White was backed I | :23:27. | :23:33. | |
don't know. One of the problems poor visibility. In preparation for | :23:33. | :23:38. | |
today I looked up UTC and the first reference was on page 3. What I | :23:38. | :23:42. | |
thought there was quite surprising. Are you losing business as a result | :23:42. | :23:47. | |
of the skills shortage? This year alone we've lost over �10 million | :23:47. | :23:52. | |
worth of business because we haven't got enough qualified, | :23:52. | :23:56. | |
experienced, engaging, enthusiastic engineers to help us. Her that is a | :23:56. | :24:00. | |
disaster! At it is awful. That doesn't just apply to our business, | :24:00. | :24:07. | |
that is throughout... Whether it is customers or my peers, they have a | :24:07. | :24:15. | |
similar problem. It is a serious charge. By 2020 we will be short | :24:15. | :24:19. | |
for 1,000 qualified engineers and a million technicians. If we're going | :24:19. | :24:24. | |
to have nuclear power stations, faster broadband and other things... | :24:24. | :24:26. | |
In the other thing to do is bringing them in from other | :24:27. | :24:32. | |
countries. Why can't we grow them here? Because for the last 50 years | :24:32. | :24:36. | |
we haven't had good technical schools. They were closed because | :24:36. | :24:46. | |
:24:46. | :24:49. | ||
of snobbery. We made it. Five years ago, we started this concept. They | :24:49. | :24:56. | |
are 14-18. By then youngsters know what they want to do. At 16, when | :24:56. | :25:01. | |
you ask them at 16, they are not used to working day. Ours is a | :25:01. | :25:06. | |
working day. They have to turn up. 4-2 days a week they are doing | :25:06. | :25:09. | |
practical things with their hands, the other three days they are doing | :25:09. | :25:14. | |
maths, English and science. Because those are melded the will -- melded | :25:14. | :25:19. | |
into the specialism, they improve. These are successful and the one | :25:19. | :25:23. | |
that has been going for two years in Staffordshire, we had 16-year- | :25:23. | :25:29. | |
old and 18 year-olds this year. Every youngster but that you CT got | :25:29. | :25:32. | |
a job or an apprenticeship in college or university. Would you | :25:32. | :25:38. | |
like to see them rolled out in a bigger way? In terms of the model | :25:38. | :25:43. | |
that has been set up by Ken Baker, these are something the Labour | :25:43. | :25:47. | |
party would support? Absolutely. Kane came up with the idea five | :25:47. | :25:53. | |
years ago and we supported the setting up of the first of these | :25:53. | :25:56. | |
university technical colleges and Ken has got a great body of people | :25:56. | :25:59. | |
together to work on them. The curriculum it is exactly what | :25:59. | :26:04. | |
Andrew is talking about. It is getting young people more used to | :26:04. | :26:10. | |
practical and vocational and technical skills. Still losing all | :26:10. | :26:14. | |
that business because not enough people are coming through. Indeed. | :26:14. | :26:18. | |
We've said we absolutely have to focus on this and we didn't do | :26:19. | :26:25. | |
enough in government to focus on those youngsters who will get a | :26:25. | :26:28. | |
technical or vocational qualification. What is great about | :26:28. | :26:33. | |
these is it leaves the route open because they do call education as | :26:33. | :26:37. | |
well. It doesn't close off any opportunities to them, but it does | :26:37. | :26:42. | |
give them a kind of experience that will make them ready to work in | :26:42. | :26:47. | |
industry. The criticism is that they are still not heard -- high- | :26:47. | :26:50. | |
profile enough or they are not engaging with employers. That may | :26:50. | :26:55. | |
come in time. Do you accept the charge that successive governments | :26:55. | :27:00. | |
have been snobs when it comes to these things? We are now paying the | :27:00. | :27:07. | |
price. For the last 150 years we've been in a mess. There was a report | :27:07. | :27:14. | |
in 1924. What do we want students to be? Students -- schools must | :27:14. | :27:21. | |
produce students that are literate, but the duck of the 20 new ones we | :27:21. | :27:24. | |
are looking at at the moment, they are supported by 250 different | :27:24. | :27:32. | |
companies. I am going to get Tandy involved in the one near | :27:32. | :27:40. | |
Bedfordshire. -- Andy. He will get a call from me. There will be | :27:40. | :27:48. | |
tomorrow. Should be more money and focus be put into these sorts of | :27:48. | :27:53. | |
colleges so that there isn't a risk of the two A-level system? All of | :27:53. | :27:57. | |
the praise on the top universities, perhaps that sort of attention | :27:57. | :28:04. | |
should be making these colleges elite? I think so. There will be a | :28:04. | :28:08. | |
whole range of different schools out there and you will not be able | :28:08. | :28:11. | |
to have a UTC rolled out immediately in every part of the | :28:11. | :28:16. | |
country, but we need to focus on this kind of approach. Why not? | :28:16. | :28:26. | |
eventually that may be the case. It takes time. We are extremely | :28:26. | :28:29. | |
supportive of this approach. One of the great things about it is they | :28:29. | :28:34. | |
have a working day. At the end of the day, the young people have | :28:34. | :28:43. | |
completed their work in school. need to get the schools to want | :28:43. | :28:47. | |
their children to leave school and getting to engineering. That is the | :28:47. | :28:53. | |
problem we have. When children at a younger they are into Lago and | :28:53. | :28:57. | |
computers, they like creating things, but by the time they leave | :28:57. | :29:04. | |
school it has gone. He they would all rather do media studies! Do you | :29:04. | :29:07. | |
think it has been drilled out of them? | :29:07. | :29:15. | |
I get involved with people on the automotive Council. We have | :29:15. | :29:19. | |
conversations where we talk about getting the education establishment | :29:19. | :29:24. | |
to encourage people to do it. People are concentrating on | :29:24. | :29:31. | |
business. We need to integrate the whole thing together. You'll be | :29:31. | :29:35. | |
glad to know it there's one in media city dealing with the | :29:36. | :29:42. | |
technology to make this programme go out. Very positive. Behind you | :29:42. | :29:47. | |
there has about six or seven Engineers. We have to train more | :29:47. | :29:54. | |
people and I'm very glad it is part of this. A we need the Government | :29:54. | :30:04. | |
:30:04. | :30:12. | ||
to focus more on this. On what 300 Just a little smile on the crews's | :30:12. | :30:17. | |
faces. I've never seen them so happy. It will take us weeks to be | :30:17. | :30:27. | |
to them back into shape! Anyway, after yesterday's critical reports | :30:27. | :30:30. | |
into the BBC's handling of the Savile and McAlpine stories on | :30:30. | :30:32. | |
Newsnight more condemnation of the corporation this morning. The | :30:32. | :30:34. | |
Public Accounts committee has published a scathing report | :30:34. | :30:37. | |
criticising the �450,000 pay off for George Entwistle, who was | :30:37. | :30:41. | |
Director General for just 54 days. It also criticised excessive | :30:41. | :30:47. | |
severance payments made to ten other senior managers. And to | :30:47. | :30:52. | |
Caroline Thomson, who stepped down with over �600,000 in her handbag. | :30:52. | :30:56. | |
A big handbag. A lot of licence fees went into that. Here's | :30:56. | :31:01. | |
Margaret Hodge, who chairs the committee. I think the BBC | :31:01. | :31:05. | |
displayed a cavalier attitude to the way it uses tax payers money | :31:05. | :31:09. | |
through the licence fee. This is our money, and this man had been in | :31:09. | :31:17. | |
the job for 54 days, and he walked away with �450,000 and a package of | :31:17. | :31:22. | |
benefits including a year's access to private health care, money for | :31:22. | :31:26. | |
his lawyers and four p are to deal with all hostility he was facing | :31:26. | :31:31. | |
from the media. Nobody else would get that. We still don't know what | :31:31. | :31:35. | |
his pension is, but we have a final salary pay scheme at the BBC, and | :31:35. | :31:41. | |
if his pension is based on that, that he only learnt before 54 days, | :31:41. | :31:45. | |
that's not right, and I think the BBC management it doesn't get to | :31:45. | :31:50. | |
what the public think. That was Margaret Hodge. Let me welcome | :31:50. | :31:55. | |
viewers from Scotland to join us from first Minister's questions. | :31:55. | :31:59. | |
You are now with the Daily Politics, discussing the BBC after the news | :31:59. | :32:05. | |
which came out yesterday. We heard from Margaret Hodge, the head of | :32:05. | :32:09. | |
the Public Accounts Committee who has attacked the number of pay-offs | :32:09. | :32:12. | |
and the size of them that the BBC and the trust have been making. | :32:12. | :32:15. | |
We're joined now by the Chairman of the Culture Media and Sport | :32:15. | :32:18. | |
Committee, John Whittingdale. And Ken Baker is still with us, who | :32:18. | :32:27. | |
takes a big interest in this, as a former Home Secretary would. What | :32:27. | :32:32. | |
do you make of the Public Accounts Committee report? I entirely agree | :32:32. | :32:35. | |
with it. My committee expressed concern about the size of the pay- | :32:35. | :32:42. | |
off to George Entwistle, and Chris Patten and it indeed the came | :32:42. | :32:45. | |
before us and I think they are right to highlight, not just the | :32:45. | :32:50. | |
single payment to George Entwhistle but it appears to have been a | :32:50. | :32:53. | |
culture, whenever anybody left the BBC, they went with a huge amount | :32:53. | :32:57. | |
of cash but this is a time when resources are under pressure and | :32:57. | :33:02. | |
they are having to make cuts to things like BBC local radio. It all | :33:02. | :33:05. | |
in these easy to spend other people's money, the licence fee | :33:05. | :33:10. | |
money. What do you say in response to the chairman of the BBC trust, | :33:10. | :33:15. | |
Chris Patten, who was on the radio this morning saying, well, if they | :33:15. | :33:23. | |
had fired him, George Entwhistle, he could have gone for constructive | :33:23. | :33:27. | |
dismissal and it would have cost the BBC a lot more. Firstly, it | :33:27. | :33:32. | |
raises questions over the contracts at the BBC. They need to look at | :33:32. | :33:37. | |
that in future but, I think Chris Patten made similar remarks before | :33:37. | :33:41. | |
my committee that this was the legal advice, but they should have | :33:41. | :33:46. | |
challenged that because the public expectation was some body who | :33:46. | :33:49. | |
failed in his job should not be able to walk away with that kind of | :33:49. | :33:56. | |
money. And Caroline Thompson? that case, she left with even more | :33:56. | :34:02. | |
money. We are told her position was got rid of and her duties were | :34:02. | :34:06. | |
taken on by the chief financial officer. Again, it's an | :34:06. | :34:10. | |
extraordinary amount of money for somebody to go away with for the | :34:10. | :34:15. | |
the BBC are claiming poverty are the moment. Don't we know it. Did | :34:15. | :34:21. | |
you see us at the party conferences? No, exactly. I expect | :34:21. | :34:28. | |
you would not have been paid as much as Caroline Thompson. There is | :34:28. | :34:36. | |
a difficulty here. For the sake of this discussion, most licence pay | :34:36. | :34:40. | |
users will side with you and there will be fury about this. There is a | :34:40. | :34:44. | |
problem, though, which is what can you do about it because at the | :34:44. | :34:51. | |
moment, the moment Parliament tries to do anything about it, you are | :34:51. | :34:55. | |
interfering in the independence of the BBC. It's up to the BBC to | :34:55. | :34:58. | |
tackle this problem which was highlighted again by Nick Pollard | :34:58. | :35:02. | |
in his report revealing things which were not a great surprise. | :35:02. | :35:06. | |
There's too many people, it's not clear what they are actually doing, | :35:06. | :35:11. | |
and there needs to be a much clearer line of responsibility and | :35:11. | :35:15. | |
fewer tears of management. The new manager will have to get on with | :35:15. | :35:22. | |
that quickly. This also the structure and whether that's it for | :35:22. | :35:29. | |
parliament and whether the trust is working as it should. The BBC trust | :35:29. | :35:33. | |
was a construct created for Michael Grade of. He then decided to go to | :35:34. | :35:40. | |
ITV instead and left us with this strange hybrid organisation. The | :35:40. | :35:43. | |
BBC having its own board with non- execs author and the BBC trust on | :35:43. | :35:50. | |
top of that. We will enter another round of charter renewal, I suspect. | :35:50. | :35:55. | |
What should be done? Actually, I was the opposition spokesman at the | :35:55. | :35:59. | |
time and was critical of the formation of the BBC trust because | :35:59. | :36:04. | |
it's trying to do two conflicting roles, regulating and championing. | :36:04. | :36:07. | |
What I think should happen, the BBC should be externally regulated like | :36:07. | :36:12. | |
the other broadcasters, Ofcom, and there should be clipped corporate | :36:12. | :36:15. | |
structure were the chairmen, chief executive, and non-executive | :36:15. | :36:21. | |
directors like Channel 4 and others. The trust would go. You have been | :36:21. | :36:25. | |
round this course many times. agree with what he has been saying. | :36:25. | :36:30. | |
His committee has become very influential. One of the great hopes | :36:30. | :36:36. | |
for the BBC, Tony Hall, the new director-general. I was responsible | :36:37. | :36:40. | |
for the BBC and he was in charge of the news for that I think he | :36:40. | :36:45. | |
handled it very well indeed. The Conservative Party other day was | :36:45. | :36:51. | |
absolutely loathed, even more than today. And he handled it very well | :36:51. | :36:55. | |
indeed and he will be a big plus. When it comes to the management of | :36:55. | :37:00. | |
the BBC, I would introduce that no one should have more than six | :37:00. | :37:04. | |
months notice of a contract for the immediately, limit the chances are | :37:04. | :37:09. | |
big payouts for that there should be no payments like those ones for | :37:09. | :37:12. | |
public relations. It's quite remarkable. When somebody leaves, | :37:12. | :37:18. | |
it I was in business, you try to make it easy for them, you say you | :37:18. | :37:21. | |
want a happy lever, so you become generous with other people's money | :37:21. | :37:27. | |
and that's not fair in these cases. I think the Pollard report was | :37:27. | :37:32. | |
accurate and the fact nobody has been sacked at the BBC, you are a | :37:32. | :37:39. | |
member of a cosy club. The BBC is a cosy club. I haven't got a pension. | :37:39. | :37:47. | |
You might be different. There will be no pay-off when I go. Excellent. | :37:47. | :37:51. | |
That's an example which should be followed. It will be zero. That's | :37:51. | :38:00. | |
very good. Why doesn't has become the standard for everybody? Apart | :38:00. | :38:04. | |
from the two BBC managers which were told they were incompetent, | :38:04. | :38:11. | |
they were not sacked, but given other jobs, presumably on existing | :38:11. | :38:15. | |
salaries and those jobs have not been specified at the BBC. They | :38:15. | :38:20. | |
have no respect for authority. Everybody will know does two are | :38:20. | :38:23. | |
clean to their jobs by their fingernails. Their authority and | :38:23. | :38:28. | |
respect will go. I agree and that's something I raised and I'm told by | :38:28. | :38:31. | |
the BBC disciplinary measures have been taken against a number of | :38:31. | :38:37. | |
individuals. Who? They haven't stated but I'm sure we can make a | :38:37. | :38:43. | |
fair guess. They haven't been able to say it publicly. But I hope | :38:43. | :38:47. | |
further assurance of that kind will be given because the public will | :38:47. | :38:51. | |
expect measures to be taken a gives people who have failed. More BBC | :38:51. | :38:55. | |
execs come before your committee in the new year, do you think? It I | :38:55. | :39:00. | |
think we will want to look at the way in which the BBC runs. | :39:00. | :39:05. | |
consider the way changes should be made. We've got a lot on it would | :39:05. | :39:09. | |
be Leverson Inquiry as well. It's a busy time for my committee. It's | :39:10. | :39:14. | |
something we will want to look at. It's still a great institution, in | :39:14. | :39:18. | |
spite of all these difficulties. What we are going through his | :39:18. | :39:21. | |
management who could not deliver the high profile case and they | :39:21. | :39:25. | |
panicked. They could not deal with it themselves and there was bad | :39:25. | :39:29. | |
management course of it's still one the greatest broadcasters in the | :39:29. | :39:33. | |
world. That's a good note to end on. Let's quit while we are ahead. | :39:33. | :39:37. | |
Merry Christmas to you. Now, how would you like a day named after | :39:37. | :39:43. | |
you? Yes, hold your horses! Our guest of the day's managed it. | :39:43. | :39:46. | |
Baker Days. That's a day off school for the kids. A childcare headache | :39:46. | :39:49. | |
for parents and the teachers? Well, they are working hard brushing up | :39:49. | :39:52. | |
on their teaching skills of course. Lord Baker's time as education | :39:52. | :39:54. | |
secretary was also, of course, marked by teachers' strikes. Here's | :39:54. | :40:04. | |
:40:04. | :40:08. | ||
How does Kenneth Baker a boy had a dilemma that impelled his | :40:08. | :40:13. | |
predecessor? -- avoid the dilemma that impaled his predecessor? Today | :40:14. | :40:17. | |
was designed as a show of strength as one union leader put it, a | :40:17. | :40:20. | |
demonstration that the teachers were prepared to put their money | :40:20. | :40:30. | |
:40:30. | :40:43. | ||
Appropriately, the first of Mrs Thatcher's Cabinet onto the streets | :40:43. | :40:47. | |
this election was the Education Secretary. His critics were waiting. | :40:47. | :40:57. | |
:40:57. | :41:10. | ||
There is a great deal of support And we're joined now by Kevin | :41:10. | :41:14. | |
Courtney of the National Union of Teachers. Just before I come to you, | :41:14. | :41:18. | |
Kenneth Baker, Michael Gove has written to every head teacher it | :41:18. | :41:22. | |
demented take robust action against teachers involved in industrial | :41:22. | :41:26. | |
action and dock their pay. Do you agree with that? I believe teachers | :41:26. | :41:34. | |
should strike. The strike in 1986 had been going on for 18 months. No | :41:35. | :41:40. | |
one could settle it. It was my first priority. I settled it by | :41:40. | :41:47. | |
doing something quite dramatic. I took away, by law, all knitters | :41:47. | :41:51. | |
fishing rights from teachers' unions and introduced a committee | :41:51. | :41:55. | |
which would determine teachers' pay which did a much better deal. | :41:55. | :41:59. | |
review body. It was much better than its predecessor, a much better | :41:59. | :42:06. | |
deal for teachers, who came out of negotiating procedures. That's a | :42:06. | :42:10. | |
different approach Michael Gove is perceiving. Do you think his | :42:10. | :42:13. | |
approach will work? I think he selling to a conflict with the | :42:13. | :42:18. | |
unions over this but is taking a very tough line and I support him. | :42:19. | :42:24. | |
What do you say to that? We are not striking at the moment, but it's | :42:24. | :42:29. | |
not disrupting any education. It's improving education Bilal and | :42:29. | :42:32. | |
teachers to focus on teaching and learning instead a bureaucratic | :42:32. | :42:38. | |
nonsense. You operating a work to rule, aren't you? We don't call it | :42:38. | :42:43. | |
that. For example, we are not saying don't to a football club on | :42:43. | :42:48. | |
a Saturday, music after school, we're not saying those things. What | :42:48. | :42:52. | |
we are saying is, in system of professional standing. If your head | :42:52. | :42:57. | |
teacher says to you says you have to hand in a week's planning on a | :42:57. | :43:00. | |
Sunday afternoon when you know it's not the right way to plan the | :43:00. | :43:04. | |
lessons, don't do it. The how does this end? We look at the way | :43:05. | :43:08. | |
Michael Gove is dealing with it and he has made this threat, if you | :43:08. | :43:13. | |
like, and you are responding in the way you have just outlined. You | :43:13. | :43:18. | |
can't go on like that indefinitely? In many schools, you can't see it | :43:18. | :43:22. | |
happening because head teachers are happy with it. In many schools, you | :43:22. | :43:27. | |
can't see it but we think Michael Gove wants to excavate the so, in | :43:27. | :43:30. | |
the Sunday Times last week, he said is on a war footing, with teaching | :43:30. | :43:35. | |
unions. We think it's with teachers in practice, and he wants to tear | :43:35. | :43:43. | |
up the entire pay framework created through Lord Baker's dealings. He | :43:43. | :43:46. | |
wants to have paid determined at the level of the school for that we | :43:46. | :43:53. | |
think it's a huge craziness. Why? In every one of those 26,000 | :43:53. | :43:57. | |
schools, head teachers, governors and teachers are thinking about | :43:57. | :44:01. | |
paying teachers instead of think about learning and teaching. | :44:01. | :44:04. | |
There's a central issue here whether there should be national | :44:04. | :44:10. | |
pay bargaining in the whole of the country or regional pay. I have | :44:10. | :44:15. | |
come to believe regional pay would be reasonable. In the private | :44:15. | :44:19. | |
sector there is certainly regional pay, no doubt about that. People in | :44:19. | :44:22. | |
the north-east and north-west get low wages than in the south and | :44:22. | :44:29. | |
south-east, which is a cauldron of activity. Deprived areas getting | :44:29. | :44:35. | |
low wages, a race to the bottom? that is the line-up Michael Gove is | :44:35. | :44:39. | |
moving towards full that what do you think of the idea schools will | :44:39. | :44:45. | |
themselves, within pay banding, negotiate and dictate teachers pay? | :44:45. | :44:49. | |
One of the most significant changes I made was to give to school | :44:49. | :44:52. | |
control of their budgets, delegating budgets, and some people | :44:52. | :44:56. | |
tell be they would not be able to control them. They controlled them | :44:56. | :45:02. | |
perfectly well. They should be able to determine their pay as well. | :45:02. | :45:05. | |
What's wrong with that in individual schools? I take your | :45:05. | :45:10. | |
point they could be too much focus on deciding teachers' pay but head | :45:10. | :45:13. | |
teachers could conclude that they know their staff, they know who is | :45:13. | :45:17. | |
stronger, and who is less able to deal with a heavy workload and pay | :45:17. | :45:27. | |
We don't want the focus for head teachers to be on that. Think about | :45:27. | :45:32. | |
it from the point of view of one of the teachers. The responses we are | :45:32. | :45:35. | |
getting at NUT headquarters is a real hostility for this for several | :45:35. | :45:41. | |
reasons. How will you know whether your head teacher's decision is | :45:41. | :45:45. | |
based on your competence or on the school's financial position? If it | :45:45. | :45:49. | |
is because of the school's financial position, if your face | :45:49. | :45:54. | |
doesn't fit, where do you were Peel? If you're in a big | :45:54. | :45:59. | |
Association, you can appeal over the head teacher's head. There is | :45:59. | :46:03. | |
no independent appeal body. There is some evidence that black | :46:03. | :46:07. | |
teachers find it harder to cross the performance threshold. We think | :46:07. | :46:11. | |
there is already evidence of headteachers making wrong decisions | :46:11. | :46:16. | |
and has no appeal mechanism. We are taking away a teacher's career | :46:16. | :46:20. | |
structure. At the moment you move up based on part on years of | :46:20. | :46:25. | |
service and on the head teacher's assessment, but with these | :46:25. | :46:29. | |
proposals you lose any security you have any move to another school. | :46:29. | :46:35. | |
Our members don't like that. Let's go back to the approach. You talked | :46:35. | :46:39. | |
about how you dealt with that strike. His Michael Gove's approach | :46:39. | :46:44. | |
working? Talking about a war footing. Is that going to resolve | :46:44. | :46:49. | |
it? What I was surprised to hear from the union was that the action | :46:49. | :46:55. | |
taken in schools doesn't seem to be visible anywhere. Members are | :46:55. | :47:00. | |
taking action, but it is not affecting Saturday football and the | :47:00. | :47:05. | |
other things. Why are you doing it then? It is having no effect on | :47:05. | :47:12. | |
education so what are you doing it for? I don't understand that. | :47:12. | :47:16. | |
didn't answer my question about Michael Gove's approach. But we | :47:16. | :47:22. | |
have to finish there. He played for time! | :47:22. | :47:26. | |
Could a gas rig be coming to a field near you? Last week, the | :47:26. | :47:28. | |
Government gave the go-ahead to the controversial technique of | :47:28. | :47:31. | |
extracting gas from rock known as fracking. It was halted after earth | :47:31. | :47:33. | |
tremors near Blackpool were blamed on drilling in the area. | :47:33. | :47:35. | |
Communities affected have been campaigning against any further | :47:35. | :47:38. | |
drilling, but what if there were financial incentives for local | :47:38. | :47:43. | |
people to support fracking? That was an idea taken up by Lancaster | :47:43. | :47:45. | |
and Fleetwood MP, Eric Ollerenshaw, in a Westminster Hall debate | :47:46. | :47:55. | |
:47:56. | :47:59. | ||
yesterday. He will join us in a moment, but | :47:59. | :48:05. | |
first let speak to Helen Rimsha of Friends of the Earth. Are there any | :48:05. | :48:10. | |
conditions under which you would support fracking? No. Looking at | :48:10. | :48:15. | |
the community benefits is the wrong place. We need to look at this in | :48:15. | :48:20. | |
the wider context in the future of the energy policy. We need to move | :48:20. | :48:25. | |
away from fossil fuels. We need to reduce reliance on glass -- gas and | :48:25. | :48:30. | |
move towards renewable energy. There are potential impacts for the | :48:30. | :48:35. | |
environment in Lancashire. There are risks of water and air | :48:35. | :48:44. | |
pollution and this region of Lancashire has important... We are | :48:44. | :48:48. | |
taking a huge risk. We will be dependent on gas for quite some | :48:49. | :48:58. | |
time. It is becoming -- it is coming from Norway and other areas. | :48:58. | :49:02. | |
Given that we are going to use gas for the foreseeable future, it | :49:02. | :49:07. | |
would be sensible to have some home-grown gas. Another thing the | :49:07. | :49:11. | |
Committee on Climate Change said last week is that a UK share of gas | :49:11. | :49:15. | |
will have no big impact, it will not be a game changed on energy | :49:15. | :49:19. | |
prices. We have rising energy prices because the price of global | :49:19. | :49:24. | |
gases going up. We need to reduce the reliance on gas and develop | :49:24. | :49:28. | |
clean energy sources. That would not only cut carbon emissions, but | :49:28. | :49:32. | |
create thousands of new jobs, particularly in places like | :49:32. | :49:38. | |
Lancashire. 9,000 people are already employed in the renewable | :49:38. | :49:45. | |
energy sector. What do you say? agree with the date -- great deal | :49:45. | :49:50. | |
of what she says. We are long way off this. We're just resuming one | :49:50. | :49:56. | |
Test site. If it is going to happen, Lancashire need to pay back. Surely | :49:56. | :49:59. | |
Lancashire would get a payback. You would be the crucible of the | :49:59. | :50:04. | |
activity. We are just very generous people in Lancashire! But we are | :50:04. | :50:08. | |
not Texas. In Lancashire at the moment before these wells go ahead, | :50:08. | :50:13. | |
the company will get the profits and if Starbucks don't do the | :50:13. | :50:18. | |
drilling, the Chancellor will get his taxation. The mineral rights | :50:18. | :50:23. | |
belong to the Duchy so we will get precious little. Have you been to | :50:23. | :50:27. | |
Aberdeen? Yes. Have you seen what Coyle has done for Aberdeen? Why | :50:27. | :50:31. | |
can't it do the same for Blackpool? That is drilling under the sea and | :50:31. | :50:37. | |
coming in. In Lancashire, you are talking about 800 wells across | :50:37. | :50:42. | |
rural Lancashire. Why don't you go along with her? Why bother if you | :50:42. | :50:46. | |
are so miserable. We are not miserable people, but we are trying | :50:46. | :50:51. | |
to put a marker in the shale about what should happen if this proves | :50:51. | :50:54. | |
to be the bonanza the national press claim it might be. | :50:54. | :50:58. | |
national press know very little about it. I was brought up in | :50:58. | :51:06. | |
Lancashire. You can tell that from my accent! They are canny people. I | :51:06. | :51:11. | |
am strongly in favour of a fracking, it will transform the British | :51:11. | :51:16. | |
economy. To turn your back on fracking means that you might as | :51:16. | :51:22. | |
well... It is samba -- as important as North Sea oil. America but -- | :51:22. | :51:27. | |
America will be self-sufficient with energy into of three years. | :51:27. | :51:33. | |
The industries in America which had become uncompetitive are being re | :51:33. | :51:38. | |
created. We have a huge opportunity. Although Greenpeace are full of | :51:38. | :51:44. | |
nice people, if you had been around in the 18th century, you would have | :51:44. | :51:49. | |
said don't dig coal mines. You have to recognise that this is | :51:49. | :51:57. | |
transformation of. On your question of whether Lancashire should get a | :51:57. | :52:01. | |
benefit, with nuclear power stations the villages around it got | :52:01. | :52:11. | |
:52:11. | :52:11. | ||
free energy. In the United States, shale Gas has cut the price of gas | :52:11. | :52:16. | |
by a third. There are hundreds of thousands of jobs created as new | :52:16. | :52:26. | |
:52:26. | :52:27. | ||
industries relocate back to America. They call it a homecoming in the US. | :52:28. | :52:31. | |
You are Friends of the Earth... Ken Baker caught you Greenpeace! I do | :52:31. | :52:38. | |
apologise. Why should Britain lose out on this if that is the | :52:38. | :52:45. | |
prospect? A lot of energy analysts agree it is a different scenario in | :52:45. | :52:50. | |
the UK. It will be more expensive and more difficult to extract. It | :52:50. | :52:57. | |
is a different environment, it is more densely populated. We don't | :52:57. | :53:01. | |
need to extract this resource, it is not worth the risk. You would be | :53:01. | :53:05. | |
against it anyway. You are against fracking in the US. Her absolutely | :53:05. | :53:10. | |
because of the climate change impact. It is quite amazing that | :53:10. | :53:14. | |
the Secretary of State gave the go- ahead to fracking without even | :53:14. | :53:20. | |
having conducting the environmental assessment. How come, even though | :53:20. | :53:25. | |
the US economy has been growing, unlike the European economies, how | :53:25. | :53:29. | |
come US carbon emissions are down substantially since they moved to | :53:29. | :53:33. | |
shale gas? Europe, which hasn't been growing, his way over its | :53:33. | :53:38. | |
carbon targets. We still need to move away from fossil fuels. That | :53:38. | :53:42. | |
is the answer to my question. are many reasons why the US | :53:42. | :53:49. | |
economy... It is a lesser carbon fuel than coal. Unconventional Gas | :53:49. | :53:53. | |
has a higher carbon impact than conventional gas. We can't afford | :53:53. | :53:59. | |
to extract this gas. It is clear from the science that we can't | :53:59. | :54:03. | |
afford to burn this gas and we don't need to. We have fast | :54:03. | :54:10. | |
renewable resources. We could meet our electricity needs by six times | :54:10. | :54:17. | |
over with windfarms. P it was under question I asked. We will leave it | :54:17. | :54:26. | |
there. Has the postman been yet? Because | :54:26. | :54:29. | |
it's that time of year when the post can bring you something a | :54:29. | :54:32. | |
little more welcome than the usual bills and junk mail. Here in | :54:32. | :54:35. | |
Westminster, ears are straining to hear the thud of Christmas cards on | :54:35. | :54:40. | |
the mat in the hope that there will be a card from Dave or Ed or even | :54:40. | :54:43. | |
Nick. In a moment, we'll be discussing what it all means with | :54:43. | :54:45. | |
political commentator Simon Hoggart. But first, here's a selection of | :54:45. | :54:55. | |
:54:55. | :54:55. | ||
Apology for the loss of subtitles for 49 seconds | :54:55. | :55:45. | |
Don't know how that last picture got in there. I'm not sure I like | :55:45. | :55:52. | |
myself with a beard. It is like an estate agent's Christmas night out! | :55:52. | :55:57. | |
That is a complement! We're joined now by Simon Hoggart from the | :55:57. | :56:02. | |
Guardian. Have you had yours from Dave, Ed and Nick? I must have | :56:02. | :56:07. | |
dropped off the list. That is terrible. An amazing one from Keith | :56:07. | :56:13. | |
Vaz. A cartoon that shows Keith in the middle of the Olympics Opening | :56:13. | :56:21. | |
Ceremony with the cream parachuting down -- at the Queen. Are they the | :56:21. | :56:27. | |
bane of a politician's life, having to sign all of those cards? It is a | :56:27. | :56:31. | |
way to keep in touch with your constituents. Be it has now become | :56:31. | :56:37. | |
very expensive to do. It is 50p per card. Not if you e-mail it. | :56:37. | :56:41. | |
they are not really. They are boring. E-mailed Christmas cards | :56:41. | :56:47. | |
are not the same. They don't have the same glow about them. Do they | :56:48. | :56:53. | |
filly with joy? Politicians always do things for reason and on their | :56:53. | :56:59. | |
Christmas cards, what of the messages? It is all on the cover. | :56:59. | :57:06. | |
Let's have a look at David Cameron's Christmas card. That has | :57:06. | :57:13. | |
got a lot of messages. You've got Kate Nisbet, a military hero and an | :57:13. | :57:17. | |
Olympic torch carrier. You've got Dave and Sam. They have not brought | :57:17. | :57:22. | |
their children out this time. have before. Tony Blair always used | :57:22. | :57:28. | |
to bring out his children. Gordon Brown never did. The message is the | :57:28. | :57:34. | |
Olympics, our brave or roads -- heroes and summer. Let's have a | :57:34. | :57:40. | |
look at Ed Miliband's. Him with his family. A slightly different | :57:40. | :57:50. | |
message. That's as I'm a human being -- and that says. What is | :57:50. | :57:55. | |
puzzling is his wife, a highly intelligent woman, they've chosen a | :57:55. | :58:02. | |
picture which makes her look like the joker in Batman. Sign an! -- | :58:02. | :58:09. | |
Simon. Do you think it is unwise to put your family on? I think so. | :58:09. | :58:15. | |
Christmas is a Christian festival. This has become common fodder for | :58:15. | :58:21. | |
politicians, they send out hundreds of them. Show us your card. This is | :58:21. | :58:29. | |
a cartoonist. He low Ruth Margaret Thatcher and Tony Blair even more. | :58:29. | :58:39. | |
:58:39. | :58:39. | ||
-- Pirlo moved Margaret Thatcher. At Cap we have run out of time. I | :58:39. | :58:48. | |
will be back with this week at 11:50pm tonight. Our I will be | :58:48. | :58:51. | |
joined by Michael Portillo, Alan Johnson, Sir Ming Campbell, Mary | :58:51. | :58:53. | |
Ann Sieghart, Nick Watt, Kevin Maguire, Quentin Letts, John | :58:53. | :58:55. |