08/01/2013 Daily Politics


08/01/2013

Jo Coburn with the latest political news, interviews and debate. Jo is joined by Liberty Director, Shami Chakrabarti to discuss the coalition's civil liberties record.


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Transcript


LineFromTo

Good Afternoon and welcome to the Daily Politics.

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MPs vote on limiting increases in benefits to 1% for three years. So

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who is it going to hit - the shirkers or the strivers?

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They promised an end to the big brother state and introduced a

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Freedom Bill. So what's all this talk of a snooper's charter and

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secret courts? We assess the government's record

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on civil liberties. The man who built the Olympics

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takes up a new job at the treasury. Can he kick-start infrastructure

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spending across the UK and deliver a boost to the economy?

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And we've our own Olympic star. Shami Chakrabarti, the founder of

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liberty. We salute her integrity. Half How do you reach those dizzy

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heights of adulation? Yes, we're Daily and we do Politics

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- in fact we do exactly what we say on the tin. And in that tin for the

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next hour is Shami Chakrabarti, the Director of Liberty. Welcome to the

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programme. Let's start with Northern Ireland,

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where hundreds of Loyalists have taken to the streets of east

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Belfast for the fifth consecutive night to stage violent protests

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against the city council's decision to restrict the number of days when

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the Union flag flies over City Hall. Let's get the latest from our

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Northern Ireland Political Editor, Mark Devenport. Her why have

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Community nations collapsed in such a dramatic way?

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It came as a bit of a surprise to the politicians at Stormont. They

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knew there would be significant community disquiet over this

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decision to restrict the flying of the Union flag to a certain number

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of designated days over Belfast City Hall, when for many a year it

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had flown there all year round. Even though they thought it might

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be the one might or one-week wonder, nobody predicted, prior to the

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controversial decision last month, the protests would have been

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sustained in the wake they have been, and as violent as they have

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been. Last night we saw the police coming under attack from

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sledgehammers, axes, and industrial laser was used to try and blind the

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police. I was surprised only three police officers were injured, given

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the level of violence and the fact that police had to fire plastic

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bullets and water cannon in response. We are seeing some of the

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pictures now and the emergency vehicles, obviously being brought

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in night after night. It is difficult to see how you can defuse

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the situation? It is difficult. The protesters want to have the Union

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flag put back on Belfast City Hall. But I was attending the regular

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monthly meeting of Belfast council last night, and there was no sense

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the councillors were going to do an about face. The nationalists feel

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they have struck a blow for equality by taking down this flag,

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which they say does not represent them. The Alliance Party, which is

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the cross-community party, stuck in the middle, still believes it voted

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for a principled compromise in flying the flag on only a certain

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number of designated days, and we have one of those coming up

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tomorrow, which is the birthday of the Duchess of Cambridge. The union

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is heard about this, but are scrabbling to try and reconnect

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with their community, those people who have been on the streets, who

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don't feel they have been represented by their politicians.

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It does demonstrate that symbols are still extremely important to

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people in the communities in Northern Ireland, at a time when we

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thought peace had broken out? Absolutely and progress in Northern

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Ireland has been one of the most wonderful things of my lifetime, my

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adult hood. No matter the importance of symbols to politics

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and communities, it is no justification for sending children

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out to throwing missiles. Reports of ten-year-olds going out? Yes, I

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have a ten-year-old, and I don't take him on peaceful demonstrations,

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let alone to put them at risk and cause violence. We have had people

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win the Nobel Peace Prize from both sides of the community in Northern

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Ireland. Let's have these senior political voices coming out and

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speaking to the community. It does show how fragile things must be,

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but these tensions still so much close to the surface? Apparently so.

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I don't know whether it is affected in part by the economic situation

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or other factors. As with the riots in England a couple of summers ago.

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You just staff to cope saner counsel prevailed. What about the

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potential solution of flying the flag again? Is this a challenge to

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democracy? City Hall made a decision and it has provoked this

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violence. You cannot reverse a Democratic decision because people

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are rioting. I do hope it will be senior voices in the Unionist

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community, peaceful people, from that side of the argument who come

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out and urge peace and show some leadership. We have heard people in

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the Unionist community who say they feel like strangers in their own

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land, they obviously feel very strongly that they are not being

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able to show their feelings in the way they would like? It is a

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Democratic debate that they can lead whilst urging peace.

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We will be coming to the benefits caps story soon.

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When the coalition came to power, it promised to strike the civil

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liberties. Some of the plans have raised questions about the

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coalition record on civil liberties. We seem to have a problem with the

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film, but we will try and play it in a moment. We will be joined by

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the Home Office minister who is responsible.

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Shami Chakrabarti, what do you think of the record from his

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coalition Government in terms of civil liberties? It is mixed. They

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started well. The coalition was almost glued together by their

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opposition to various authoritarian measures went they were both

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opposition parties. ID cards, a symbolic act of the coalition

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Government, abolishing those and some of the other measures you

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spoke of. The fingerprinting and so on. However, there has been a shift

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and I have real concerns about secret courts. It is a

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contradiction in terms, to kick out the victims of Government abuse and

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their lawyers and let the Government have a private chat with

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the judge. Do we need more secrecy in the lands of Hillsborough and

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the Jimmy Savile scandal? It is about scooping up the private, on-

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line information of everybody in the country. Not criminal suspects,

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we all support those being put under surveillance, but everybody.

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It is the equivalent of saying because crime happens in people's

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homes, we should have the legal power to plans a camera and

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microphone in everybody's bedroom and living room just in case they

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are up to no good. James, and so that response, that you will be

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basically so veiling everybody's house and their conversations?

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it was as Shami's characterised it, I would be joining her in her views.

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But it is updating legislation regarding telephones, and

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reflecting the fact we communicate on the internet and different ways.

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Updating legislation to enable the police to Prosser Kate -- prosecute

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offenders, put safeguards in to ensure the police can do the job

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they do now. This will be affecting innocent citizens. We do accept

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that? It is not a targeted warrant. At the moment, the police can

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access information that is retained by the phone companies, internet

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companies, to be able to use that in court. What we are seeking to do

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is update the legislation. Of course, we hear a number of the

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concerns raised by Shami and others. We had a joint committee of both

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Houses of Parliament which is looking into this. Which shares my

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concerns. We accept on principle the recommendations made by that.

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We want to bring the public with us on that but recognise there are

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clear public protection issues. Let's remind ourselves of some of

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the issues we are talking about. ID cars scrapped, innocent people

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taken off the DNA database, more CCTV regulations. All part of the

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Government's roll-back of state intrusion. But what about this? A

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snoopers charter to some, the draft communications data built has

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caused tension within the coalition. The Lib Dems want to rewrite.

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whole thing is written to give carte blanche to the Home Secretary

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to collect information on who you message, who you talk to our mind,

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do anything with. A huge amount of information. That could

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accidentally get out into the public. We know there has been data

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loss before. The list of every website you go to, if you go to a

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depression website, and abortion website, that could reveal a lot of

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information about use. The idea is to give police and community

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services the power to monitor communications. Internet service

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providers will have to give the record for a year, of details like

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which websites you have been a visiting, how long you have spent

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on an internet voice call and who you have been tweeting. We don't

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want to be able to arrest criminals to use old fashion criminals, but

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let them off if they use a more modern form of communication. We

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have to keep up with technology. Maintaining civil liberties is one

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of the reasons the Government replaced control orders on terror

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suspects who cannot be tried, with these. They focus more on

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surveillance. But Labour has criticised the Government's

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decision to scrap control orders after this terror suspect, who had

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been previously subject to a control order, disappeared. Well

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control orders were in force, several individuals or went missing,

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six of them have not been heard from again. This individual has

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gone missing, the police are doing everything they can to find him.

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These Terrorism prevention measures are very important. They are

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designed to help secure the British public from threat. A another

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controversial idea, which is winding its way through the Commons,

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could lead to civil hearings being heard behind closed doors. Secret

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courts to it its critics, the justice and security bill would

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allow Secrets Of spies and other sensitive information would be

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heard in front of a judge in cases of national security. Ministers

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have already backtracked, after it was defeated in the House of Lords.

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Judges will decide. Inquest coroner's hearings won't be heard

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in his wake, restricting it to things that are our greatest

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national security. I'm still not wild about where we are commonly

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have to find a balance so information isn't just excluded

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under the current system. They are measures that divide, but will the

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reverse of the coalition criticised as an erosion of civil liberties

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when the lights go out on this Government?

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The Home Office minister is with us. Which major crimes for terrorist

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plots would have been foiled have the Government had access to

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people's Facebook accounts? A 95% of organised crime, where they are

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brought before the courts relied on his communications data, which is

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the context, not the content of people's communications between

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each other. What we're talking about, for example, if you have a

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phone Record, the information on who has communicated with whom, and

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when and work. We understand the sensitivity is attached with this,

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which is why the draft legislation was put before the joint committee

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for scrutiny. It is to make sure those inputs are provided. There

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are clear public protection issues on child protection, where there

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was a clear case which brought it to me, on a young person who had

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contacted a child protection line. They had used a computer rather

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than phoning up. And being able to do with that child and save their

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life, literally. What you want to see taken out? For the biggest

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problem with the thinking in the Home Office, it has been going on

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for years. The snoopers charter was born under the last Government. It

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is blanket surveillance of the whole population, rather than

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attempting to target particular suspects for this kind of

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surveillance. Why is it blanket surveillance? Explain to me, how is

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it you will target people who you know to be suspects without going

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on massive fishing expeditions? Exactly. What we are seeking to do

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is bring this up to date. But the police have information on a crime,

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they might have an identified suspect and the use that

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information on people who they have been communicating with, it is

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potential evidence. We can see how this is defined in a proportion of

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weight on save karting... Updating is an innocuous phrase. We are

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forcing providers to collect more data... Which they already do at

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the moment. If that was the case, you wouldn't need it your bill. The

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minister, is a nice man and he has been speeding up the civil

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liberties for years, and now he is in the Home Office. There is

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something in the water. The second problem is, he said it is

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communications data, not the content. When you go online, which

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are website you visit is content. You had the mental health problems

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and you weren't looking for advice, and if you went on an abortion

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website. That picture of your activity... Are you prepared to

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risk potential terror suspects or potential paedophiles getting away

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because you want to protect people's liberties to such an

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Don't build up the private data of the population. Use your ingenuity

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and legislation to target suspects, do not turn us all into suspect.

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you are a clever criminal, you will bypass the structures you are

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talking about. That is what the industry says! Bee industry

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recognises, and all sides, and Shami recognises the legislation

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does need updating to reflect the changing way we use technology. But

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if we do not take steps at the moment because of the different way

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we are communicating, the ability of the police to solve crimes as

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they do, that will be eroded. We cannot allow that to happen and

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that is the real talent. Nick Clegg said this is wrong on cost and

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balances, can you satisfy his concerns? He has underlined the

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need for the legislation. What are you going to change? One up on be -

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- one of the issues was this issue of future proofing in terms of the

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scope of the legislation and taking account of how we use technology,

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we need to make sure we have clarity on the type of a

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information we will retain her to give assurances we will not grab

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everything, as Shami is suggesting we would do, to give that clarity

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on the safeguards. I believe you are going to answer an urgent

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question about a man on the film who has absconded and he had

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earlier been on a control order, where is he? By at is the question

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the police and security services are working hard to work out --

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that is. Way was he able to abscond? -- why was he able? The

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best place you want a suspect is behind bars and prosecuted but with

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some individuals can make you cannot do that, to prosecute or to

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deport them. This is the argument... This is the argument you and your

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colleagues in both of the coalition parties fought tooth and nail, when

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control orders were introduced under the last government. These

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are control orders under a different name, with loads of

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people escaped from a control order. The authority should be arresting

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people and if necessary putting them under bail, then they need to

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be charged or released. That is why we have committed additional

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resources which are robust and are dealing with offenders who cannot

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be prosecutors -- prosecuted. is nothing in the legislation that

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says people should be dealt with in the criminal justice system. I have

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to finish it, but as we would like to hear more on that subject. --

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much as. Now, it's the first big

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parliamentary vote of 2013 this afternoon. MPs will vote on

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government plans to put a 1% cap on annual rises in working-age

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benefits and some tax credits. Historically, benefits have risen

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in line with the rate of inflation, increasing by more than 5% in 2012-

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2013. The government argues the 1% cap is necessary to limit the costs

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of benefits to tax payers. The Work and Pensions Secretary Iain Duncan

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Smith says, it's very simple, today is about fairness. Why should the

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taxpayer pay more to sustain welfare payments, while at the same

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time earning less? And a new Conservative poster today reads,

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"Today, Labour are voting to increase benefits by more than

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workers' wages." Labour, in contrast, is referring to today's

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legislation as the "Strivers' Tax Bill," as they claim that 60% of

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those hit will be in work. They cite figures from the Institute for

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Fiscal Studies, which show 7.1 million out of 14 million working

:20:04.:20:14.
:20:14.:20:17.

households will lose �165 a year in real terms by 2015-2016. And the

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Citizens Advice Bureau so -- say a couple with two children earning

:20:20.:20:24.

�13,000 a year will lose �13 a week by 2015. The Deputy Chief Executive

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of the Citizens Advice Bureau, Mike Dixon, joins us now.

:20:30.:20:34.

Give us a flavour of the impact of this will have on the people you

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speak to. It will have a huge impact, �700 is a large amount of

:20:39.:20:45.

money but if you are a family on �13,000, that is eating your house,

:20:45.:20:49.

buying food for your children and going on holiday, so what is a big

:20:49.:20:54.

change. But there is a narrative from the government supported by

:20:54.:20:57.

many that says the Welfare Bill is too high and something needs to be

:20:57.:21:06.

done. For the Welfare Bill is high but a blanket cut is not a

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sophisticated approach. People are not earning enough on lower-paid

:21:10.:21:14.

jobs -- in lower-paid jobs and we are not getting enough back into

:21:14.:21:17.

work so this distinction between benefit recipients and people in

:21:17.:21:22.

work is very false. As the Institute for Fiscal Studies said

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today, more people will be affected in work and out of work by this

:21:27.:21:35.

today. Put on an issue of fairness, if you are earning around �40,000

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or �45,000 and have taken working - - working tax credits, has that

:21:40.:21:45.

created an element of dependency? This is not about dependency, this

:21:45.:21:51.

is, can people afford to leave -- lead a decent live at the moment?

:21:51.:21:55.

People on lower incomes, at the things they are spending money on

:21:55.:22:02.

have gone up, energy bills and travel, at they spend money on that

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disproportionately and they are going up fast. Cutting benefits at

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the same time will make it much harder for those people to love and

:22:09.:22:14.

much harder for them to get back into the labour market and get the

:22:14.:22:22.

market growing again -- to live up. -- live.

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We're joined now by the Work and Pensions Minister Steve Webb and

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the Shadow Work and Pensions Minister Stephen Timms. There has

:22:29.:22:34.

been a lot of talk about shirkers and strivers, how many people are

:22:34.:22:40.

on benefits in your constituency? Shirkers and strivers is not

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languid I have used for Iain Duncan Smith have used. The Prime Minister

:22:45.:22:53.

has used that language, we have heard him talk about people being

:22:53.:23:00.

workshy also. And I have not heard that, we are trying to make a small

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contribution to a massive hole. Labour were borrowing over �3

:23:04.:23:10.

billion every week. This bill does not save �3 billion is easier and

:23:10.:23:14.

that gives a sense of the massive scale of the whole we are trying to

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fill and social security spending is a small part of the court that

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has to be made. A is it wrong for political leaders to use and

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characterise the debate in the way I described in the opening remarks?

:23:28.:23:33.

Dividing people is not the right way to go. For me, the bill is

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about the necessary savings and protecting the most reliable, so

:23:39.:23:42.

disabilities are protected -- disability benefits and pensions

:23:42.:23:49.

are protectors. Without the bill, and Labour are going to vote down

:23:49.:23:54.

the whole bill, that is another �3.5 billion that has to come from

:23:54.:23:59.

somewhere else on we do not know where that is going to be. You are

:23:59.:24:03.

talking about savings so you see it if it litre Iain Duncan Smith who

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is talking about fairness. I see at the same, what we are saying is,

:24:09.:24:12.

where can we find savings in the budget at a time when people in

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work have often had a 1% pay rise or a pay freeze, how do we look at

:24:19.:24:23.

benefit of greed and at the same time? It is if fairness between the

:24:23.:24:29.

groups on benefit and had worked. So there is a difference between

:24:29.:24:33.

shirkers and strivers? Iain Duncan Smith is saying he is standing up

:24:33.:24:38.

for hard-working families. Taking people out of income tax is about

:24:38.:24:42.

people in work so they can keep more of what they are winning.

:24:42.:24:45.

need people with you would be hitting a hard-working families

:24:45.:24:50.

because 60% of those on benefits are in work! That is why you have

:24:50.:24:54.

to look at the whole package, not just there tax-free allowance, the

:24:54.:24:59.

10 pence off petrol, the whole package is helping people in low-

:24:59.:25:04.

paid work when �3.5 billion has to be found and Labour will not tell

:25:04.:25:09.

us where it has to come from. Welfare to hide? He it is and it is

:25:09.:25:13.

going up and the whole he is trying to fill is about the increase in

:25:13.:25:20.

unemployment forecast for next year. Unemployment has been falling.

:25:20.:25:23.

has gone down a bit but the official forecast is for it to go

:25:23.:25:30.

up next year. So you agree the Welfare Bill is too high and you

:25:30.:25:34.

say that is because of unemployment levels so you feel everybody that

:25:34.:25:39.

gets benefit get it and deserves it? The great majority of people

:25:39.:25:43.

out of work are certainly very anxious to get work and one of the

:25:43.:25:49.

things that worries me about this proposal is getting back to the

:25:49.:25:52.

toxic combination of policies he has talked about in the 1980s when

:25:52.:25:57.

we had the court in the top rate of income tax that is being proposed

:25:57.:26:02.

now -- a court. That led to the explosion of child poverty in the

:26:02.:26:06.

1980s and will do the same today. The crucial point is that the

:26:06.:26:11.

majority of people affected by this are in work so if you take a second

:26:11.:26:16.

lieutenant in the army... Supporting his wife and three

:26:16.:26:23.

children, they will lose out by a �552 a year. Exactly the people

:26:23.:26:27.

struggling for most at the moment. Why are you were posing a whole

:26:27.:26:33.

bill? It is deeply -- why are you opposing the whole bill. It is

:26:33.:26:37.

deeply opposing. You have said it is too high and you need to deal

:26:37.:26:42.

with the economic situation, polls show that the public is generally

:26:42.:26:46.

in favour of dealing with the burgeoning Welfare Bill, what would

:26:46.:26:52.

Labour do to bring it down? A get people back to work. It is very

:26:52.:26:55.

difficult for up a government to say, we would improve growth

:26:55.:27:00.

figures, what would you do with the Welfare Bill? We would not just

:27:00.:27:05.

improve growth figures, we would also introduce a jobs guarantee

:27:05.:27:10.

which we set out the details of that last week, paid for by a

:27:10.:27:14.

restriction on pensioners' tax relief for people earning over

:27:14.:27:19.

�150,000 a year, so we could make sure people got back into work and

:27:19.:27:23.

we got momentum back into the economy and the future hold this

:27:23.:27:28.

bill is designed to fill would not open up. Are you not falling into

:27:28.:27:34.

the trap that has been laid? You are saying you do not support a cap

:27:34.:27:40.

but to do so put a freeze on workers' wages? We do support the

:27:40.:27:45.

overall 1% cap on public sector pay and it needs to be implemented in a

:27:45.:27:50.

fair way, and less than 1% rise for public-sector workers on higher

:27:50.:27:56.

wages to protect those on low wages. This hits us with a double whammy

:27:56.:28:01.

of people who have their incomes get down and their tax credits cut

:28:01.:28:07.

for also and that is not fair. If the goes ahead, which you reverse

:28:07.:28:14.

it? -- if it goes ahead. Wait until you see our manifesto. This is the

:28:14.:28:17.

wrong approach and not fair for people struggling to make ends meet

:28:17.:28:23.

at the moment. When you hear this characterisations and listen to the

:28:23.:28:28.

Citizens Advice Bureau and job a Liberal Democrat colleagues who say

:28:28.:28:32.

they are anxious about the policy and fear many that would be hit are

:28:33.:28:40.

already on the breadline! They are anxious about a language of

:28:40.:28:45.

shirkers and strivers which we do not support. You have to look at a

:28:45.:28:49.

package of measures, crucially the Universal Credit specifically for

:28:49.:28:55.

the low-paid and hard-working families we need to support.

:28:55.:28:58.

concern is this nasty political language and demonising of people

:28:58.:29:03.

on benefits, and it went on under the last government, it is warping

:29:03.:29:09.

public opinion here because public perception of the benefits system

:29:09.:29:14.

is warped. The average perception is that 41% of the welfare budget

:29:14.:29:19.

is going on the unemployed but just 3% is spent on the unemployment, so

:29:19.:29:24.

the rest is people who are working but on low wages would low incomes.

:29:24.:29:29.

The perception was that 27% of the welfare budget is going on

:29:29.:29:33.

fraudulent claims, and the reality, according to the government's

:29:33.:29:38.

figures, is that less than 1% of the welfare budget is going towards

:29:38.:29:44.

fraud. This is the shirkers, strivers language, this is more

:29:44.:29:48.

open and the reality and public opinion. What do you say about

:29:48.:29:53.

that? You could say your Conservative colleagues have done

:29:53.:29:56.

that and most liberal Democrats have said they do not recognise him

:29:56.:29:59.

-- they do not recognise and they do not like that language. There is

:29:59.:30:04.

a false perception of what is going on and welfare is going up, a lot

:30:04.:30:07.

of that is pensions and benefits for disabled people we are

:30:07.:30:13.

protecting and that is what people want the money spent on. It is not

:30:13.:30:17.

just a single bill. We have not heard this will be reversed, they

:30:17.:30:22.

would just voted against it, but where will this come from and the

:30:22.:30:25.

context of �80 billion of deficit over the next few years? The answer

:30:25.:30:35.
:30:35.:30:37.

is, we vote against every cut but I am going to have to finish its

:30:37.:30:47.
:30:47.:30:53.

first. The Olympics was sporting glory.

:30:53.:31:00.

The Government has now put the creator in the Government. The

:31:00.:31:04.

Government has high hopes that a new wave of roads, rail and other

:31:04.:31:12.

public works will get the economy moving.

:31:12.:31:18.

We have a national infrastructure plan which has a pipeline with

:31:18.:31:28.

about just over �300 billion of projects that comprises I think of

:31:28.:31:35.

about 550 separate projects. As I pointed out already, we have

:31:35.:31:38.

identified the 40 top projects we think are important for modernising

:31:39.:31:44.

the economy and focusing resources on. So I will start with those

:31:44.:31:50.

projects. I was interested in the little ones that was started by the

:31:50.:31:55.

previous Government, as I am in starting new ones. Those 40, are

:31:55.:32:01.

they 40 that have not begun yet? terms of shovels in the ground, no.

:32:01.:32:07.

How many of those 40 will begin before 20th May 15? I do not know

:32:07.:32:13.

the answer to that yet. What is the Government's targets? I don't know.

:32:13.:32:16.

These are the questions I need to do my own work on to get a good

:32:16.:32:21.

sense of what we need to do, where we are now, and what is

:32:21.:32:25.

realistically possible. I will be speaking to the business

:32:25.:32:31.

minister, Matthew Hancock, but let's be to the Director General of

:32:31.:32:35.

the British commerce of chambers. He was struggling to answer the

:32:35.:32:38.

question on how quickly these infrastructure projects are getting

:32:38.:32:44.

built. Will he have much luck on blocking the pipeline? It is not

:32:44.:32:48.

looking good so far. The Government has indicated a lot of things in

:32:48.:32:52.

the right direction. The biggest challenge for the Government is

:32:52.:32:59.

delivering. Infrastructure is hugely important, along with

:32:59.:33:04.

business finance, access to finance. In the structure is the biggest

:33:04.:33:09.

answer to the growth question in the UK economy. It will also

:33:09.:33:13.

stimulate growth. It needs to be funded largely by the private

:33:13.:33:18.

sector. The Government needs to reduce the political risk for the

:33:18.:33:26.

private sector. There needs to be a freeing up of planning. How do you

:33:26.:33:34.

rate the UK's infrastructure? Generally poor. Aviation causes the

:33:34.:33:40.

bellwether, and that can is being kicked down the road. There is lots

:33:40.:33:47.

of infrastructure that needs to develop in certain areas. The sea

:33:47.:33:53.

ports, airports, rail and road, Lee Mead and energy policy in the UK,

:33:54.:34:00.

and energy security policy. It needs to be on a different basis.

:34:00.:34:06.

We also include skills in our infrastructure. This the Government

:34:06.:34:13.

doing enough? They're not doing enough urgency, scale and delivery.

:34:14.:34:20.

Le Sport that to Matthew Hancock. Poor infrastructure and you are not

:34:20.:34:24.

delivering the scale or the urgency of infrastructure? I agreed with a

:34:24.:34:29.

lot. Of course the UK infrastructure is poor, we know

:34:29.:34:34.

that. There has been an historic underspend. Fortunately we will be

:34:34.:34:38.

spending more on our transport infrastructure over this Parliament,

:34:38.:34:45.

van over the average 13 years that preceded it. And there is two

:34:45.:34:51.

problems. The first is, we need to make it faster to get from an

:34:51.:34:55.

infrastructure project proposal, to digging in the ground and then it

:34:55.:34:59.

openings. That is opening. And then the second thing is getting the

:34:59.:35:04.

money spent. Let me give you a couple of examples. In terms of

:35:04.:35:08.

road projects, there were announcements two years ago about

:35:08.:35:16.

the importance of some projects. Where are they? The M4, the M5 and

:35:16.:35:23.

the M6, those projects have started. Preliminary works are happening.

:35:23.:35:28.

The service roads you need. And there is others where the money is

:35:28.:35:31.

being spent in order to get the planning approvals, get the

:35:31.:35:36.

ownership straight. You need to own every bit of land. The said to

:35:36.:35:39.

agree, you accept you are not delivering? You have talked about a

:35:39.:35:44.

lot about in the structure, but apart from those examples you have

:35:44.:35:49.

given on roads, you have not delivered. The urgency isn't there.

:35:49.:35:53.

Do you accept that now? No, not at all. That is what business is

:35:53.:36:02.

saying, the urgency is not there. will explain about aviation. I

:36:03.:36:07.

don't except there isn't an urgency, because there is an urgency. We got

:36:07.:36:11.

into a position as a country, that it took too long to get projects

:36:11.:36:16.

from ideas and even when the financing was behind them, to

:36:16.:36:20.

actually getting them completed. We have got to improve the process,

:36:20.:36:27.

and then get the diggers in the grounds. We are having the biggest

:36:27.:36:31.

investment in rail since Victorian times. There will be more he spends

:36:31.:36:36.

on the railways over this Parliament than the last. There is

:36:36.:36:40.

a �37 billion announcement by Network Rail, more details came out

:36:40.:36:45.

this morning. We are electrifying from Southampton to Yorkshire and

:36:45.:36:49.

electrifying to South Wales. 800 miles of electrification over this

:36:49.:36:55.

Parliament, compared to 11 miles under Labour. So the urgency, I do

:36:55.:36:59.

not take it. We saw a question about how these projects are not

:36:59.:37:05.

happening. They are happening. was asked how many of the

:37:05.:37:09.

Government's 40 priority infrastructure projects would be

:37:09.:37:15.

under way by 2015, he did not know. That is because he is only a few

:37:15.:37:20.

days into his job. How many of the 40? The depends how many of the 40

:37:21.:37:27.

you count. How many of them will be under way by 2015? Almost all of

:37:27.:37:34.

them. You heard it there. Were at work under way on the M6, the M5

:37:34.:37:44.
:37:44.:37:45.

and lot of other projects. We won't have time to talk about funding.

:37:45.:37:50.

are making huge progress. Funding has got to come from the private

:37:50.:37:54.

sector, you said. One of the ways it was suggested was to invest from

:37:54.:38:01.

pension funds. George Osborne said it would hopefully raise �20

:38:01.:38:06.

billion. Amateur money we get to spend on infrastructure from

:38:06.:38:13.

pension funds? Best how much money. There is 10 million man's work it

:38:13.:38:18.

has been designated. We will extend the Northern line to Battersea.

:38:18.:38:23.

us tell us the amount of money. billion where this project is

:38:23.:38:27.

outlined, and the Northern line extension to Battersea, which is a

:38:27.:38:32.

�1 billion project is funded, including these guarantees. It is

:38:32.:38:41.

under way, it will open up an area of London. But the National Pension

:38:41.:38:48.

funds said it had only managed to secure �700 million. �700 million

:38:48.:38:53.

was October. I had just show June the figure whether projects are

:38:53.:38:57.

being worked on his 10 billion. That answers your urgency questions.

:38:57.:39:04.

We have gone from 700 million to 10 billion. We have had a long-term

:39:04.:39:11.

structure issue. But this sort of debate that takes place on these

:39:11.:39:15.

programmes is part of the programme. The political class have a point

:39:15.:39:21.

scoring issue, when actually we have a major, a national crisis,

:39:21.:39:25.

effectively. The Prime Minister said we were fighting an economic

:39:25.:39:34.

war. We need a huge scale of investments, we need to secure the

:39:34.:39:37.

investments for the private sector. We need to get growth going in the

:39:37.:39:44.

UK, to levels which make us gross competitive in the world economy,

:39:45.:39:51.

even if the economy was going bad, we wouldn't be there. Now, Matthew

:39:51.:39:53.

Hancock, you're staying with us because MPs have been debating ways

:39:54.:39:56.

of increasing the number of women on the boards of listed companies.

:39:57.:40:00.

Currently, less than 20% of FTSE 100 board directors are female. A

:40:00.:40:03.

level which all sides agree is unacceptably low. The government

:40:03.:40:06.

asked Lord Davies of Abersoch to write a report on the issue, which

:40:06.:40:08.

was published in 2011, and have been pursuing a voluntary,

:40:08.:40:12.

business-led approach to improving gender balance. Now the European

:40:12.:40:18.

Commission is getting involved. They want to set a target for all

:40:18.:40:21.

major companies to have at least 40 % women non-executive directors by

:40:21.:40:31.
:40:31.:40:31.

2020. The proposal was debated in the Commons yesterday.

:40:31.:40:36.

On the substance on the challenge of women on board, it is clear the

:40:36.:40:39.

Government has taken a lead and things are moving in the right

:40:39.:40:43.

directions. The current strategy is leading us towards the target the

:40:43.:40:48.

EU has proposed. On this issue about making progress, one of the

:40:48.:40:53.

ways of making progress is a voluntary approach. Lord Davies has

:40:53.:40:58.

made it clear in other speeches, he feels there has to be progress, and

:40:58.:41:03.

if progress is not made, we should look at a non voluntary approach.

:41:03.:41:07.

His he arguing the Government would be willing to look at that as

:41:07.:41:12.

something, we the UK we do, rather than some think the EU would do?

:41:12.:41:16.

Before coming a minister I wrote a book saying this should happen and

:41:16.:41:21.

we should hold open the proposition of legislation. The Government's

:41:21.:41:25.

position is clear, which is that we should approach this on a voluntary

:41:25.:41:32.

basis. Today we baked -- debate the need of greater gender balance of

:41:32.:41:38.

those in leadership in business. In doing so, the house and the

:41:38.:41:45.

governor has 22% of the current members and just 18% of the Cabinet

:41:46.:41:51.

are women. This is a disgraceful state of affairs in 2012. We are

:41:51.:41:56.

proud on these benches, that 33% of the Parliamentary Labour Party, and

:41:56.:42:06.

40% of the Shadow Cabinet are women. should debate, but in this house we

:42:06.:42:09.

are in no position to lecture. Parliament rejected the EU's

:42:09.:42:11.

proposal, deciding this issue should be tackled at a national

:42:11.:42:21.
:42:21.:42:23.

level. Matt Hancock has stayed with us to discuss the issue further.

:42:23.:42:26.

Shami Chakrabarti, he did not support the legislation, but you do

:42:26.:42:32.

now? I was in the liberal position growing up, an ambitious young

:42:32.:42:37.

woman, I did not want to be a token. But I have realised, not just in

:42:37.:42:43.

this country, but all over the world, there is such injustice and

:42:43.:42:48.

discrimination towards women, possibly more than any other

:42:48.:42:51.

discrimination in the world. The process is slow and the barriers

:42:51.:42:56.

are great. You could have legislation that it was time

:42:56.:43:01.

limited just to kick-start the process. You set up a company

:43:01.:43:04.

because you want certain benefits that come from companies

:43:04.:43:10.

legislation. We did this at Liberty, despite it being a human rights

:43:10.:43:16.

organisation, very few women on the council and the board. There was a

:43:16.:43:19.

time limited constitutional amendment that allowed the co-

:43:19.:43:24.

option of women and other minorities. It landed -- lasted two

:43:24.:43:28.

years, and at the end of that period they stayed. Why couldn't

:43:29.:43:34.

that happen? You agree, you said that you would like to see more

:43:34.:43:38.

women as non-executive directors on company boards. It won't work

:43:38.:43:43.

without legislation? It is moving in the right directions. I agree

:43:43.:43:48.

with an awful lot of what Shami says. The cultural point, people

:43:48.:43:53.

tend to promote people who are similar to them. If you are getting

:43:53.:43:58.

somebody for your board, let get somebody who fits the organisation

:43:58.:44:05.

we are in. Cultural change is crucial and legislation can have a

:44:05.:44:12.

role in that. Legislation always has some unintended consequence.

:44:12.:44:18.

The arguments I wrote in my book, and which I put in the Commons, is

:44:18.:44:23.

we should push in this direction, but we should hold open that option.

:44:23.:44:27.

So you would be prepared to use legislation if you do not think

:44:27.:44:31.

enough progress has been made in five years? I won't put a time

:44:31.:44:36.

limit on it, but I wrote a book making that argument. And making do

:44:36.:44:41.

cultural argument that more diverse sports, not only diverse boards in

:44:41.:44:46.

terms of sex, but background and people's life experiences. The

:44:46.:44:51.

evidence is clear, more diverse boards are better. There are

:44:51.:44:57.

downsize to legislating. What is the downside? The way you draft it

:44:57.:45:02.

could be very complicated. They could end up being unintended

:45:02.:45:08.

downside consequences. In Norway, where they have this legislation,

:45:08.:45:11.

the number of non-executive directors has risen. But there has

:45:11.:45:16.

been no change in the number of executive women... It is about

:45:16.:45:22.

making a start. Coming back to Shami. It is moving. It is true to

:45:22.:45:26.

say I think Lord Davies, who carried out the review so the

:45:26.:45:31.

current rate of exchange, it would take 70 years to achieve gender

:45:31.:45:36.

balance boardrooms in the UK. I am getting more impatient, and I

:45:36.:45:42.

want change to hurry up. I want to update the figures. That was from

:45:42.:45:49.

his report. The proportion of directors, FTSE 100 companies,

:45:49.:45:57.

women, is 17%. It was 12% two years ago. We have increased that

:45:57.:46:01.

proportion faster in all but three countries in the use. The UK is

:46:01.:46:06.

moving in the right directions. What about a time limit piece of

:46:06.:46:11.

legislation that Shami suggested. He would just have that league,

:46:11.:46:15.

like the all-women shortlists in Parliament, then culture will have

:46:15.:46:24.

The best thing is for this to be a business-led approach that is run

:46:24.:46:31.

by business and we push in the right direction. Race

:46:31.:46:37.

discrimination legislation was not a business-led approach.

:46:37.:46:45.

Legislation has a harder edge to it. But there is already equality in

:46:45.:46:49.

legislation, gender equality in legislation, and the gap has closed

:46:49.:46:56.

a wart. You have got to work out what works and if we are moving in

:46:56.:47:01.

this direction, and faster than almost any country in the EU, we

:47:01.:47:06.

are making progress. But Mike position is clear and I think we

:47:06.:47:11.

should hold open the option -- at my position. We should let

:47:11.:47:16.

brilliant people make the progress and get things happening. He has

:47:16.:47:19.

walked the tightrope very well because he has a private position

:47:20.:47:24.

and there is a government position. This is a good review of what

:47:24.:47:30.

Parliament did yesterday. Hands up to us on that!

:47:30.:47:33.

Now, remember the Leveson Report? Our guest of the Day, Shami

:47:33.:47:36.

Chakrabarti, will. She was one of the assessors to the inquiry, who

:47:36.:47:44.

listened to much of the evidence. Sir Brian Leveson delivered his

:47:44.:47:47.

report into the Culture, Practice and Ethics of the Press at the end

:47:47.:47:50.

of last year and, over the next few months, the Government and the

:47:50.:47:53.

media industry will have to decide how the report should be

:47:53.:47:56.

implemented. Let's bring ourselves up to date with that process with

:47:56.:47:58.

our political correspondent, Ross Hawkins, who also followed the

:47:58.:48:03.

inquiry throughout. Where are we? I am recovering

:48:03.:48:08.

slowly from the process! What they normally do is just throw press

:48:08.:48:13.

releases and statements at each other in a political battle. Here,

:48:13.:48:17.

but throw around entire draft bills and there are now five different

:48:17.:48:22.

potential versions of legislation that might or mocked -- that might

:48:22.:48:28.

or might not make it into law. I understand one drawn up by the

:48:28.:48:33.

government, to prove how difficult it would be, is going to be

:48:33.:48:37.

published by a campaign group he says it proves it is all simple.

:48:37.:48:41.

They are now talking about a royal charter to set up a body that would

:48:41.:48:47.

check whether a new press regulator was doing its job, the appeal is

:48:47.:48:52.

that would not need legislation. The bit that might get people to

:48:52.:48:55.

join in with that process would need legislation and that is where

:48:55.:48:59.

the debate is that. The Minister and her opposite numbers are

:48:59.:49:05.

meeting today, editors will meet on Thursday. You feel we are drawing

:49:05.:49:09.

towards a conclusion at some stage but I am sure the conclusion will

:49:09.:49:19.

not look much like the one drawn up originally pine -- by Sir Brian

:49:19.:49:22.

Leveson after we spent so long sitting through those hearings.

:49:22.:49:27.

eight months, I believe! -- eight months.

:49:27.:49:33.

And Labour's Helen Goodman joins us now. Why cannot the press get their

:49:33.:49:38.

own house in order? They have not fought a long time and that is why

:49:38.:49:47.

we had the Leveson Inquiry a. you trust them to do so? We want a

:49:47.:49:50.

beat -- a free press independent of government and politicians because

:49:50.:49:55.

it plays a vital role in holding power to recount, but we need to do

:49:55.:50:01.

what the judge recommended and to create some real inducements to an

:50:01.:50:05.

ethical proprietor or editor to join a better club. The PCC was not

:50:05.:50:13.

enough. Should there be a legal basis? Should there be some statute

:50:13.:50:19.

backing this up? There has been a false debate about whether you have

:50:19.:50:24.

a statute or not. We need to make sure that we -- we need to make

:50:24.:50:29.

sure nobody is compelled to join the decent club, but if they do,

:50:29.:50:35.

Beryl legal benefits. One way to do that is to have a statute. -- there

:50:35.:50:42.

are legal benefits. It just a hat - - it just has to make it worth your

:50:42.:50:47.

while. So if you go to court, you will get benefits in terms of costs

:50:47.:50:53.

or damages that might be awarded against you. Our inducement enough?

:50:53.:51:00.

We need to have those. -- are inducements enough. It is important

:51:01.:51:05.

that what replaces the PCC is not just better, but that the public

:51:05.:51:12.

can see there is a guarantee it will be better on a continuing

:51:12.:51:19.

process -- basis. So the guarantee does need legislation back in it?

:51:19.:51:25.

We think that is the best way to make sure it will happen. We cannot

:51:25.:51:29.

see there is a satisfactory alternative. What would you like to

:51:29.:51:36.

see? Ed Miliband called for full implementation of the report, did

:51:36.:51:41.

he rushed to judgment a bit? and we have now had time to draft -

:51:41.:51:46.

- to draft a bill, one of the five that has been published, that gives

:51:46.:51:52.

a commitment to freedom of the press and it gives a system for

:51:52.:51:54.

recognising the new independent regulatory body, at which we want

:51:54.:52:01.

the press to set up, but there must be criteria which can be seen to be

:52:01.:52:07.

met and to meet the public's genuine concerns. But you do not

:52:07.:52:10.

think that is necessary in terms of having some sort of accountability

:52:10.:52:20.
:52:20.:52:22.

in law. Various a democratic point, the press are not accountable? --

:52:22.:52:27.

there is a democratic point. A few are to get these benefits in court

:52:27.:52:32.

and you say aye am in this -- if you are to get these benefits in

:52:32.:52:38.

court and if you say that you are in this club, somebody has to judge

:52:38.:52:45.

if your club is good enough. If newspaper editors do not join up

:52:45.:52:49.

and if somebody decides, I am not going to play with this, it does

:52:49.:52:56.

not work. It could work because if the judge is recommending that you

:52:56.:53:03.

-- that if you do not join at the club, be decent club, if you put

:53:03.:53:07.

yourselves outside the club and you find yourself pseudonym privacy

:53:07.:53:17.

action or a defamation action, they should be damages against you. --

:53:17.:53:22.

if you find yourself in a privacy action. Would this work? If the

:53:22.:53:29.

people that did not join work small publications, this would work, but

:53:29.:53:34.

if large proprietors did not join in, we would have a problem. The

:53:34.:53:39.

government has agreed to the status quo is not an option. Everybody

:53:39.:53:44.

agrees come up of the cross-party talks going to succeed?

:53:44.:53:50.

everybody agrees with that, but of across party talks going to succeed.

:53:50.:53:57.

And will we have a new regulator by next week? I am not sure if it will

:53:57.:54:01.

be agreed by next week but we hope the government will look at this

:54:01.:54:07.

bill and a constructive light and see it meets the criteria and does

:54:07.:54:12.

not mean a big regulatory burden, which is what they were talking

:54:12.:54:18.

about. Thank you. Now, the start of the

:54:18.:54:21.

Olympics may seem like a distant memory, but for our guest of the

:54:21.:54:25.

day here, it was a day she won't forget in a hurry. She was one of

:54:25.:54:28.

the flag carriers at Danny Boyle's opening ceremony, along with

:54:28.:54:31.

esteemed figures such as Muhammad Ali and Doreen Lawrence. So how did

:54:31.:54:35.

Shami get there? I think it is mad that we do not. I

:54:35.:54:40.

am too simplistic and so are these very successful prosecutors in the

:54:40.:54:48.

United States. We can use listening devices, if I'd bug their bedroom,

:54:48.:54:56.

their conversations can be used and all this would be relevant. -- I

:54:56.:55:04.

bug. I want to pay tribute as a mother and campaigner to Janice be

:55:04.:55:08.

started a campaign for her own son and he saw it was not just about

:55:08.:55:13.

around San but about everybody's sons and daughters and vulnerable

:55:13.:55:23.
:55:23.:55:24.

relatives. -- son. I am not paying attention! It is no wonder all

:55:24.:55:31.

those people and up in jail! -- a foreign jail!

:55:31.:55:37.

Shami Chakrabarti, the founder of Liberty.

:55:37.:55:42.

She has been cringing with embarrassment. The opening ceremony

:55:42.:55:47.

was watched by so many people, but I was not the founder of Liberty,

:55:47.:55:56.

it was founded in 1934! I know I am sharing -- showing my age, but I am

:55:56.:56:00.

just the caretaker of Liberty. We are joined now by the PR Guru

:56:00.:56:03.

Mark Borkowski, who has advised a number of celebrities on their

:56:03.:56:06.

image. How do you think Shami has been able to transcend the

:56:06.:56:13.

political left and right to reach this national treasure status?

:56:14.:56:20.

Shami is incredibly bright, as we sought a minute to go with that

:56:20.:56:27.

minister, she is brilliant at punctuating people. -- as we saw.

:56:27.:56:31.

With a media dominated by white middle-aged commentators, she is a

:56:32.:56:35.

breath of fresh air and she cut through the rhetoric we have had

:56:35.:56:45.
:56:45.:56:47.

for years about social mobility. -- cuts. Very few icons are as bright

:56:47.:56:52.

and direct as her. But having built her up, she could come crashing

:56:52.:56:56.

down, that is the dangers. daresay she has a lot or control

:56:56.:57:03.

and is more sensible about her image. -- a lot more control. If

:57:03.:57:07.

you look back at the key element of when the silver screen was in its

:57:07.:57:11.

heyday, there was Arnold publicist he said it was the strength of

:57:11.:57:16.

character that was important -- there was an old publicist. You are

:57:17.:57:22.

being kind but we need a reality check! You use words like icon and

:57:22.:57:29.

national treasure, one of my favourite movies of the 1980s is

:57:29.:57:35.

called Working Girl, and there is a great line from her friend who says,

:57:35.:57:39.

sometimes I sing and dance around the house in my underwear, do not

:57:39.:57:49.
:57:49.:57:51.

make meet Madonna! I am a human rights campaigner! -- make me. A

:57:52.:57:56.

did you have reservations about the Olympics? When the phone call came

:57:56.:58:01.

through, I thought it was a joke and I played along for five minutes.

:58:01.:58:06.

When I realised it was not a joke, I had reservations because I

:58:06.:58:13.

thought, what if the protesters get arrested and it is like Beijing?

:58:13.:58:17.

What if this is an excuse to clamp down on civil liberties? But then

:58:18.:58:24.

they said the magic words, Doreen Lawrence, who had agreed to do this.

:58:24.:58:29.

So I phoned up my friend and heroin and I said, you have agreed to do

:58:29.:58:35.

this, are you not worried that if there is a clampdown on young black

:58:35.:58:43.

children of protesters, that you could be used to endorse that? --

:58:43.:58:50.

Jo is joined by Liberty Director, Shami Chakrabarti to discuss the coalition's civil liberties record, as well as the latest on the vote in parliament on the benefits cap.


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