28/01/2013 Daily Politics


28/01/2013

Jo Coburn is joined by business woman Heather Rabbatts to discuss the high-speed rail announcement and also whether there should be more women working in business.


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LineFromTo

Good afternoon. Welcome to The Daily Politics. It is full steam

:00:41.:00:45.

ahead for the next phase of High Speed 2. David Cameron has taken

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his Cabinet to Leeds this morning to announce details for the next

:00:49.:00:54.

stage of the project. But are the economic benefits worth the money?

:00:55.:00:58.

Can a new government scheme cut energy bills and improve your home?

:00:58.:01:03.

We speak to the energy minister. Should the goalposts be moved to

:01:03.:01:08.

help women get jobs in the boardroom? And it is this man the

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next Conservative party leader? -- and is this man? All that coming up.

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And with us today is the lawyer, businesswoman, broadcaster and

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football association board member... Let's start with the economy. After

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last week's news that the economy shrunk by 0.3% in the last three

:01:35.:01:39.

months of 2012, George Osborne hit the Breakfast sofa this morning. He

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was talking up the benefits of the HS2 rail extension, but he also had

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this to say about the economy. are absolutely determined to tackle

:01:50.:01:54.

the long-term problems that this country faces. Building high-speed

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rail, investing in jobs, investing in the north of the country, is

:01:58.:02:04.

part of that engine for growth. no let-up in the cuts and the

:02:04.:02:09.

austerity? No let-up in fixing Britain's problems. Growth is flat,

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talk of a triple dip recession, inflation is rising - do you think

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the pace of cuts has choked off demand, as Labour claims? I think

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it is a very difficult balance to strike. What is interesting about

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BHS to announcement today is that it is a real emphasis on investment

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to generate growth. Particularly, the regeneration of those parts of

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the country, Leeds, Birmingham, Manchester, which we know are

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experiencing challenging times. So I think that level of investment in

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infrastructure is important. But I also think that in the area of

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small businesses, we are an entrepreneurial culture. I work in

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the creative sector, in media. We see a lot of really interesting

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small companies, and if they can get access to finance... This is

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about not getting credit again? Party, and partly about the culture,

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risk-taking, but it is risks not based on where we were before, on

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some really complicated innovative, it is risk based on backing people

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and producing things. We need to get back to making stuff, which is

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what we used to do. Do you have confidence in John Osborne's plans?

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-- in George Osborne's plans? the moment we are waiting to feel

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that growth come back into the economy. To that extent, the jury

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is still out. But I think it is fair to say, there is no silver

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bullet, no magic solution. We have become the guinea pigs, everybody

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is looking at what we are doing. We have done massive amounts in terms

:03:46.:03:51.

of quantitative easing... That has kept interest rates down. Yes, and

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we have had announcements by the forthcoming new governor of the

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Bank of England, which might start to make changes. It has been

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terrible for savings, of course. But at the moment, we would so the

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jury is out. You were chief executive of Lambeth council in the

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mid-1990s. Let's take you back there - is it fair for some

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councils to be booking up council taxes in these difficult times?

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pink for local authorities who are trying to maintain services,

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whether that could be elderly, care, maintaining streets, supporting

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their own regeneration, they have to find ways of bringing tax

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revenues into their local authorities. What they need to

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demonstrate is that they are investing effectively, if those

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council tax rises are to be justified. The Prime Minister has

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described it as an engine for growth, and this afternoon, the

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Transport Secretary will stand up in the House of Commons to unveil

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the second phase of the Government's plan to drive a new

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high-speed rail line through the north of England, and eventually to

:05:01.:05:05.

Scotland. The Government has already announced the first phase,

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connecting London to Birmingham, a route not without controversy,

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especially where it passes through the Chilterns. Today, ministers

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will outline the second phase, taking it on to Sheffield and Leeds

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in the east, and on towards Manchester in the north-west.

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Journey times from London to Manchester will be reduced by an

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hour to 68 minutes. Journey times from Leeds to London will be

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reduced to 82 minutes, from more than two hours. It will cost more

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than �33 billion. It will be opened by 2033. We asked to speak to a

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Transport Minister, but no-one was available. But I am joined now bike

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a Conservative Impey, and by Labour's Shadow Transport Secretary,

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Maria Eagle. Can we afford this? Yes, it is a very considerable

:06:04.:06:10.

period of time. It increases the connectivity of the system. There

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will also be benefits for the north of the country. It is something we

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cannot afford not to do. The West Coast Main Line will be full. We

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cannot keep upgrading. We need new railway lines, and this is a good

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way to start. We cannot afford not to do this? Constituencies like

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mine will be taking all of the pain and getting no gain. We will have

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no station in my constituency, and in fact, we will have the pleasure

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of driving half-an-hour north to get to London half an hour faster.

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So, there is nothing in it for us. Added to that, the roots go through

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a site for private sector investment, which would create up

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to 7,000 new jobs. It has thrown those plans into mayhem. You have

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obviously got to defend your constituents, but are you against

:07:05.:07:09.

the project in principle? Do you accept the idea that this is about

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investing for growth, that capacity limitations will mean that these

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roots are needed, and that it will be better join up the north and

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south? I can agree that we need to do that, but I think the route has

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been so poorly thought-out. I have spoken to East Midlands Airport,

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where it is that there is going to be a tunnel underneath the airport.

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That is an employment hub of 10,000 private sector job, and they have

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not even been consulted. It smacks of incompetence. And you have got

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the same civil service who delivered as the bomba DA fiasco

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and Wayne -- and the West Coast Main Line franchise disaster, so I

:07:45.:07:55.
:07:55.:08:01.

think this is totally badly thought out. -- the Bombardier fiasco.

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There is a consultation which is about to start, to look carefully

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at these issues, and I am particularly concerned about the

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location of some of the stations that will be needing. And also, the

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fact that they appear to have abandoned the spur to Heathrow. I

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think connectivity to the main hub airport would actually be one of

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the most important things, so I am a bit concerned about that. So if

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you want to get into office, you want to redraw the route, and

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change it quite substantially, connect it to Heathrow, I mean,

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that will mean even more delay. Well, we have to see how far we get.

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There will be a bill published later this year, and once that has

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gone through Parliament, that will fix the route. We want to be

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constructive, we want to see this done, but that is not to say we

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will not be raising concerns as we look in more detail at the

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proposals. Listening to Andrew talking about, questioning, the

:08:55.:08:58.

economic benefits - are you sure that there will be that kind of

:08:58.:09:08.
:09:08.:09:09.

engine for growth? I think I can only speak for my experience, in

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relation to CrossRail, going across London, and we have already

:09:12.:09:17.

generated around 7,000 jobs, tens of thousands of jobs in the supply

:09:17.:09:22.

chain. In terms of regenerating parts of London, and indeed East

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Kent, we are at the beginning of that journey, but certainly,

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everything is telling us that you - - if you can create those catalysts,

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you can begin to influence the economy is around those hubs. I

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think the critical point about a just to is about the North-South

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question. As Andrew said, the real challenge is to make sure that we

:09:45.:09:50.

get the Connection's right. All the benefits can be lost if you end up

:09:50.:09:54.

having to travel for half an hour to get to a mainline station, which

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is where you have just come from. So, the question about where the

:09:58.:10:01.

questions will be, and this really connect with CrossRail and Heathrow

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as well. That's what really needs to be hammered out. What are you

:10:07.:10:12.

going to do about that, we'll be fighting very hard to try to get

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stations changed, is there any chance of that happening? I will be

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fighting hard to get the route change, quite honestly. It should

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have gone closer to Derby, Derby tell wanted that station, and they

:10:24.:10:28.

have got the infrastructure for it. Have you got a campaign together

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for this? I think it will gather support quite rapidly. There will

:10:33.:10:36.

be various campaigns opposing either of the spurs. That is how

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things will pan out in parliament. I would like to hear what Patrick

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McLoughlin has got to say this afternoon. I was particularly

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annoyed when he said that some people would be a little upset over

:10:45.:10:49.

the route, when it is announced - that is the kind of comment which

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you can only make when you are the MP of a constituency which will be

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completely unaffected couple have you got any chance of achieving

:10:55.:11:01.

anything? At the end of the day, it is not starting until 2026, until

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the London to Birmingham route is completed, which is three general

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elections away. However, the fear about the plight and the anxiety

:11:11.:11:20.
:11:21.:11:22.

will start today. Will you vote against the legislation? A believe

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I will, yes. One of our viewers has tweeted us, if this is so good for

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jobs, how come Spain has the highest unemployment in the EU?

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There are many factors involved in that. But the important point for

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us is that our railway system is creaking. Passenger numbers are

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going up and up, lost an system is full. We do need new railway lines.

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I think we ought to be getting on with this faster. When could

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restart, feasibly? Well, you do have to put the legislation through,

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to get the planning consent. But the current government are planning

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two bills, for both phases, but I think we should have one bill. You

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could then start building from the north as well as from the south. I

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think our great northern cities need assurances about this.

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mentioned that you have worked with CrossRail, and if anything has

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taken for ever to actually get started, it was CrossRail. Yes, it

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took something like 20-odd years. And they do think that is the

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challenge, that on one level, we want to make sure that there is

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effective consultation, and on another level, we have to, I think,

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get these turntables down. The reason we need the investment is

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for all of those reasons we have spoken about today. In 20 years'

:12:44.:12:54.
:12:54.:12:54.

time, who knows what will have happened? So, I think, as has been

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said, if we could have one built, that at least would begin to bring

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down that timetable. It is a bit embarrassing, in a country that

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invented the railways, we still have journey times similar to the

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Victorians, when the rest of Europe have bullet trains... We have

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announced investment in the electrification of the East

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Midlands Main Line, which is starting next year. Actually I have

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not got a passenger railway station in my constituency. We have asked

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the Government to reopen the Ivanhoe Line, to connect up to

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Leicester, but I was told there was no money left. And yet there is �32

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billion to spend on a just to. Thank you very much all of you. Now,

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one of the finest Westminster traditions came up in the Sunday

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papers yesterday, a backbench plot against the Prime Minister.

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According to some reports, a group of Conservative backbenchers have

:13:47.:13:50.

been discussing propelling one of their number to the party

:13:50.:13:53.

leadership if the Conservatives failed to get a majority at the

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next election. So, who is the Knight in shining armour? It is the

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MP for Windsor, not a household name, yet. After he saw the

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newspapers yesterday, he was quick to deny any involvement in a plot.

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Were you surprised to read the newspapers this morning? I choked

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on my cereal, as did the rest of the family. Let me say, I will

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never stand against David Cameron. I a 100% supportive of him. I am

:14:23.:14:26.

working with many colleagues to make sure that they give the

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Conservatives -- the Conservatives the best chance of winning of a

:14:30.:14:38.

general election and European elections. Well, Tim Montgomerie

:14:38.:14:43.

joins us now - did you choke on your cereal? Well, it was certainly

:14:43.:14:47.

a bit of a surprise, in a week when things have gone so well for us. We

:14:47.:14:51.

have had one of our best weeks in a long time. For these rumours to

:14:51.:14:55.

appear at this time about David Cameron's leadership, it is

:14:55.:15:02.

complete nonsense. But it is not the first time, is it? There has

:15:02.:15:06.

been speculation about David Cameron's leadership, as there is

:15:06.:15:10.

in every Parliament, about every leader and Prime Minister. But it

:15:10.:15:17.

was not a total shock, was it? think last summer, David Cameron's

:15:17.:15:20.

leadership was going in the wrong direction. The boundary review had

:15:20.:15:24.

collapsed, there was all of the media about the Olympics, the

:15:24.:15:28.

coalition was in a fraught state of mind. Since then, we had a very

:15:28.:15:33.

effective speech from David Cameron at the party conference, jutting

:15:33.:15:38.

out his policies. You have had a reshuffle, seeing people like Chris

:15:38.:15:42.

Grayling coming on board, a more balanced team. Because of fears of

:15:42.:15:52.
:15:52.:15:58.

They knew something was going wrong. Linton Cosby is the campaign

:15:58.:16:00.

manager. David Cameron has solidified his leadership in the

:16:00.:16:06.

last six months. There will always be 40 or 50 irreconcilable MPs who

:16:06.:16:10.

don't like him. But things are going better for him than for some

:16:10.:16:15.

time. That's a rump isn't it. 40 or 50 monies who can never be reck

:16:16.:16:20.

sield is still a danger, particularly on issues like Europe,

:16:20.:16:25.

and there are some in your party who won't be happy unless Britain

:16:25.:16:30.

pulls out of the EU. There are those who don't like the coalition.

:16:30.:16:34.

They fear that the Tories may not get a majority at next election. So

:16:34.:16:41.

you could say they are thinking ahead. I think there are probably

:16:41.:16:46.

nearly every Conservative and Labour MP thinks in the back of

:16:46.:16:50.

their mind - perhaps I could be leader. There are quite a few who

:16:50.:16:56.

talk to friends About whether they would support them in the case of a

:16:56.:17:01.

vacancy. There is no vacancy. Talk of changing the leadership stkracts

:17:01.:17:05.

us from what we need to do. We're united on the European issue. We

:17:05.:17:10.

need to focus on the bread and butter issues of tax and the Health

:17:10.:17:16.

Service and crime to ensure we can win a majority. You've seen plenty

:17:16.:17:24.

of Prime Ministers and parliaments going by, what was your reaction

:17:24.:17:30.

sno --? I too were shocked. Some of our colleagues in the media were

:17:30.:17:34.

tired writing about Europe and the Obama effect. On one level, how

:17:34.:17:39.

fantastic that we could have a black MP at least put out there as

:17:39.:17:43.

potential leadership candidate. That shows how we've moved in

:17:43.:17:46.

politics. That's something to be celebrated. I suspect that some of

:17:46.:17:50.

the people who are no longer in Cabinet might be feeling

:17:50.:17:54.

disgruntled. It's halfway through a term. We often get these

:17:54.:17:58.

conversations around leadership. I would suspect that, at the moment,

:17:58.:18:03.

Cameron is pretty well secure. The Europe speech, particularly,

:18:03.:18:06.

consolidated his position within those parts of the party. The last

:18:06.:18:12.

four or five opinion polls we've seen Labour's lead fall below 10%.

:18:12.:18:16.

At this stage of the Parliament that's a very poor showing. One of

:18:16.:18:22.

them still put them 13 points ahead. Five of them were below 10%. If

:18:22.:18:26.

there are questions about any leader it should be directed to the

:18:26.:18:29.

red corner. Does David Cameron feel secure? I think he must do at the

:18:29.:18:36.

moment. Do you hear that?, No I have no reason to hear that. He

:18:36.:18:41.

does feel secure. There are issues, gay marriage is one of those things.

:18:41.:18:44.

Is there are -- he needs to work better at party management. A lot

:18:44.:18:48.

of people don't feel loved, that their views are heard in the party.

:18:48.:18:55.

He cannot afford to be complacent. But he is scier. This is the issue.

:18:55.:19:03.

-- He is secure. This is the issue. Is this why a backbencher name has

:19:03.:19:08.

been put forward. He had to deny it, Adam Afriyie, do you think that is

:19:08.:19:14.

a worry that there are quite a few backbench MPs who feel they should

:19:14.:19:19.

have been ministers, who feel there is a disconnect between Cabinet and

:19:19.:19:24.

ministers and the Parliamentary party? Cameron has two coalitions.

:19:24.:19:28.

He has a coalition with the Liberal Democrats, which we talk a lot

:19:28.:19:32.

about. But he also has a coalition with his own party. The party is a

:19:32.:19:38.

broad beast. It has - Sure, but has he lost that connection? He still

:19:38.:19:43.

needs to work a lot harder, not just to keep Nick Clegg happy but

:19:43.:19:47.

to keep backbenchers happy. This is the generation who cut their

:19:47.:19:51.

political teeth under Margaret Thatcher. This is have Thatcherite

:19:51.:19:54.

views. Giving them hope that this isn't the best it's going to be,

:19:54.:19:57.

that at the next election, there will be more of a traditional

:19:57.:20:01.

message, that's what he has to achieve. Thank you very much.

:20:01.:20:05.

Smashing through the glass ceiling, it's what women who get to the top

:20:05.:20:10.

in male TV dominated professions are described as having done. What

:20:10.:20:15.

do women need to do to compete in a man's world. Susana Mendonsa has

:20:15.:20:25.
:20:25.:20:27.

Football and politics, they're both male-dominated areas where women

:20:27.:20:32.

try to level the playing field. This woman has done a bit of both.

:20:32.:20:36.

She used to play football and now combines working at this youth club

:20:36.:20:40.

in Tower Hamlets with being a Labour politician in Essex. She

:20:40.:20:44.

says to succeed in a man's world, women need confidence. There have

:20:44.:20:48.

been so many times over the last 20 years, and I've been on the pitch,

:20:48.:20:51.

all men, or even a football tournament and it's all men. I have

:20:51.:20:55.

to believe that I have enough ability to play in that tournament.

:20:55.:20:59.

Does that make sense? In some ways that seems like a small thing and

:20:59.:21:04.

you take it into politics and you walk into Westminster, fairly male-

:21:04.:21:07.

dominated and you have to believe you have a contribution to bring.

:21:07.:21:11.

While the number of women in football and politics is growing

:21:11.:21:17.

there are still 13 men for every woman taking part in football. In

:21:17.:21:25.

politics, around one in five MPs is a woman. Last year, just 15% of

:21:25.:21:28.

board directors on the FTSE 100 companies were women. Compared with

:21:28.:21:33.

12.5% in 2010. So the number of women getting to the top of

:21:33.:21:36.

financial firms has increased but it's not happening quickly enough

:21:36.:21:39.

according to this former market analyst, who's worked for the

:21:39.:21:45.

lights of BGC and Goldman Sachs. There has been very, very little

:21:45.:21:49.

improvement. Women are still massively under represented. I

:21:49.:21:53.

think we have gots to the stage now where quotas are necessary, where

:21:53.:21:56.

that force has to happen. In ten years, when we have lots of women

:21:56.:22:01.

running the world, we don't need quotas any more. The Prime Minister

:22:01.:22:06.

has made clear he would prefer to avoid quotas and he's been

:22:06.:22:11.

resisting calls from Brussels for a 40% female quota. There are women

:22:12.:22:17.

who'd agree with the know-quota approach. When you're talking about

:22:17.:22:22.

quotas, positive discrimination, what you're really talking about is

:22:22.:22:28.

tokenism. That dints women's self- confidence. It stokes male

:22:28.:22:33.

resentment. It creates a culture where suspicion is the norm. That

:22:33.:22:38.

is bad for everybody concerned. this Labour Parliamentary candidate,

:22:38.:22:43.

who was selected on an all-women short list in Harlow say quotas are

:22:43.:22:47.

needed. If you want to address any kind of imbalance, you have to do

:22:47.:22:51.

it in a purposeful way. You can't just give it good words and dream

:22:51.:22:55.

about it and one day think, a few years down-the-line, it will change.

:22:55.:22:58.

That's not how change happens. Things have been changing. Women

:22:58.:23:02.

have been rising through the ranks. So do they need a leg up to speed

:23:02.:23:08.

up the process or should they just be playing men at their own game

:23:08.:23:11.

I'm joined now by Mike Buchanan from the Campaign for Merit in

:23:12.:23:16.

Business. Before I come to you, can I ask you first, Heather Rabbatts,

:23:16.:23:20.

what's it like being the only female director at FA? Well, I

:23:20.:23:25.

think it's interesting. I am also the only female director on some of

:23:25.:23:30.

the other boards I sit on. We all know that football has a particular

:23:30.:23:34.

representation in terms of whether it has the most modern outlook to

:23:34.:23:38.

women, but the fact that I am on the board of the FA is a sign that

:23:38.:23:44.

times are changing. Do you think they are? Is it tough? How are you

:23:44.:23:48.

treated? It's always a mix. There are people who are incredibly

:23:48.:23:51.

welcoming. Others are somewhat suspicious. I think that's true of

:23:51.:23:56.

most boardroom that's women go into whether they are in football or a

:23:56.:24:01.

top 100plc. There's always a challenge. I think women invariably

:24:01.:24:06.

have to work often twice as hard to find that way of being accepted,

:24:06.:24:10.

because they don't go in with being given the benefit of the doubt. I

:24:10.:24:14.

think actually to have quotas to wake it worse. You would have a

:24:14.:24:19.

sticker on your head saying "I'm only here because I'm part of the

:24:19.:24:25.

quota." How do you change? By some of the work that's being done,

:24:25.:24:29.

constant exultation, about putting companies on notice, about chairman

:24:29.:24:33.

being asked serious questions at their shareholders about why there

:24:33.:24:38.

are no women on their boards. As we were talking earlier, at times,

:24:38.:24:42.

maybe the threat of quotas, the threat of change might get

:24:42.:24:46.

everybody to focus about what they need to do. Do you agree we need

:24:46.:24:54.

more women on boards? No, I don't. Why? We have five studies which

:24:54.:24:57.

show that when you increase the number on women on boards,

:24:57.:25:01.

financial performance declines. There is not one single study

:25:01.:25:06.

worldwide which shows... What about women matter 2010, a report by

:25:06.:25:12.

management consultants that suggest that companies with gender balance

:25:12.:25:17.

boardrooms are 56% more profitable? We keep hearing this, if you look

:25:17.:25:20.

at the reports you'll find that they report in correlation.

:25:20.:25:23.

have they done these reports when there rnts that many boards with

:25:23.:25:27.

women on them? There's plenty of them. In Norway there was a huge

:25:27.:25:32.

expansion of the number of women on corporate boards. The results were

:25:32.:25:36.

corporate decline. The reason that men dominate the boardroom, the

:25:36.:25:41.

reasons are well understood. The most important single reason is,

:25:41.:25:48.

was something that was explained by a renowned sociologist in 2000. Her

:25:48.:25:52.

research showed that while four in seven men are work centred, only

:25:52.:25:59.

one in seven women are. You would expect an 80/20 split on boards on

:25:59.:26:03.

that alone. I'm not aware of some of the surveys that have just been

:26:03.:26:07.

mentioned. I always find it quite interesting where we look at board

:26:07.:26:13.

effectiveness and we were talking about the economy and why we've got

:26:13.:26:18.

into some of the mess, many people would say it was about how banks

:26:18.:26:22.

are governed. We look at process with failing companies. We look at

:26:22.:26:26.

lack of regulation. We don't necessarily look at the fact that

:26:26.:26:30.

they were fundamentally male boards. I don't know about that survey. I'm

:26:30.:26:34.

sceptical about it. What about women not being work centred

:26:34.:26:40.

enough? I think that as you look at the indices, women are

:26:40.:26:44.

participating more in the economy, they're working longer, certainly

:26:44.:26:47.

women might not be work centred through certain times of their

:26:47.:26:52.

career, when they're having young families, but when I talk to women

:26:52.:26:56.

across all sectors one of the things they constantly come back to

:26:56.:27:00.

is A, they want to come back to work, most need to stay in work. So

:27:00.:27:06.

I think all of those indices are changing. Also it's about age and

:27:06.:27:11.

stage. Most non-execs are in their 50s and 0s when they have had

:27:11.:27:14.

experience. Having experience and wisdom is important. You'll find

:27:14.:27:19.

that many women are wanting to be back in the labour market during

:27:19.:27:23.

those years. What about, there are two points there. You could say

:27:23.:27:28.

maybe a bit crudely that it was men that broke it, the banking system,

:27:28.:27:32.

that those boards were male- dominated and that they took too

:27:32.:27:38.

many risks and a mix, having women perhaps as a generality are more

:27:38.:27:42.

risk averse, add a different dimension would be healthy and

:27:42.:27:48.

profitable. It's a theory, but it's a self-serving theory. But it was

:27:48.:27:54.

borne out. It's a bit like your surveys, self-serving to your

:27:54.:27:57.

perspective to argue that women can't get on board, I don't know

:27:57.:28:04.

what experience they need to have - There are no surveys that say

:28:04.:28:14.

performance improves. There's a Deutsche bank where they

:28:14.:28:17.

voluntarily put more women on the boards. The result was more risky

:28:17.:28:22.

behaviour. We can argue about surveys one way or the other, but

:28:22.:28:27.

don't you feel it's right more women should be on boards? 50% of

:28:27.:28:30.

the population are female, why shouldn't there be more women if

:28:30.:28:35.

they want to have a role on boards, why shouldn't they be there?

:28:35.:28:38.

don't think any men feel that just because they want to be on a board

:28:38.:28:43.

there's some sort of efpb titlement. Some would argue they do. Veryify l

:28:43.:28:48.

few. We come back to the point that the number of qualified men for

:28:48.:28:52.

mangor corporate boards hugely outnumbers the number of qualified

:28:52.:28:59.

women. The last 45 or 25 FTSE 100 have been non-executives.

:28:59.:29:02.

reason that boards have stayed male is because they want similar people

:29:02.:29:06.

to themselves on the boards. Again the reason they do that is that the

:29:06.:29:13.

pool of men is hugely deeper than the pool of women. What do you say

:29:13.:29:16.

Tha'it, that point doesn't stand up? I think there's been all sorts

:29:16.:29:21.

of research that says in of the past -- in the past that people

:29:21.:29:26.

tend to recruit in their own image. When we look at issues of

:29:26.:29:29.

discrimination, those points have been made. What I would like to

:29:29.:29:32.

stress is that there's 50% of the population are women. There are

:29:32.:29:36.

huge numbers of talented women out there. I think increasingly boards

:29:36.:29:41.

are wanting to have people with diverse voices and diverse

:29:41.:29:45.

experiences. Having people who've just come up through one particular

:29:45.:29:48.

part of the industry to then become a non-exec doesn't necessarily give

:29:48.:29:54.

you the breadth of outlook you want to have. If you start to look at

:29:54.:29:57.

the criteria about effective non- execs and think about what the

:29:57.:30:01.

talent pool you want to look at, you will start to find more women

:30:01.:30:06.

coming onto boards. We always have 50% of the population is women, why

:30:06.:30:12.

aren't 50% of the directors women? No-one's arguing for 50%. But it's

:30:12.:30:16.

just 15%. I don't see anyone xam paining for 50% of lorry drivers to

:30:16.:30:19.

be women. What do you say to that? If women want to be lorry drivers,

:30:19.:30:25.

they will apply and no doubt, they will be put up with some of the

:30:25.:30:27.

challenges of getting into lorry driving. What we're talking about

:30:27.:30:33.

here is power. Actually, most people give up power with great

:30:33.:30:37.

difficulty. This is about ensuring that power, whether it's around

:30:37.:30:42.

effective decision making ash our companies, has the best talent. My

:30:42.:30:46.

belief is that when I meet many women they say we would really like

:30:46.:30:50.

to become a non-exec. We don't have the confidence, we don't know how

:30:50.:30:55.

to do. It I don't find the same comments that I get from some of my

:30:55.:30:59.

male colleagues. Who do feel, the next thing is becoming a non-exec.

:30:59.:31:09.
:31:09.:31:14.

We need to support women to find The next crunch day for the

:31:14.:31:18.

coalition comes on Tuesday, when MPs will vote on delaying boundary

:31:18.:31:23.

changes until 2018. Could this be the first time David Cameron and

:31:23.:31:30.

declared end up on the other side - - on opposite sides of the vote? --

:31:30.:31:40.
:31:40.:31:54.

We can speak now at to James Lyons from the Daily Mirror, and the

:31:54.:31:58.

Sun's Emily Ashton. Emily Ashton first of all, two big issues for

:31:58.:32:03.

the coalition this week, Europe and boundaries - initial reaction,

:32:03.:32:07.

overwhelming support from backbenchers, but how long can that

:32:07.:32:15.

unity last? We cannot hear you just at the moment. Now, attic we can.

:32:15.:32:21.

Sorry, start again, how long do you think Tory unity will last? Well,

:32:21.:32:25.

David Cameron has had one of the best weeks of his premiership. He

:32:25.:32:29.

has even impressed some European leaders. It is funny because

:32:29.:32:33.

tomorrow's vote is not going to be particularly helpful to that unity.

:32:33.:32:37.

Suddenly, a lot of Tories will be a bit cross and frustrated that they

:32:37.:32:40.

cannot get his decision on the boundaries through. Remember, this

:32:40.:32:44.

vote is very important to the Conservative Party. The next

:32:44.:32:48.

election will depend crucially on them getting those extra 20 seats,

:32:48.:32:52.

and experts think changing the boundaries will help them get that.

:32:52.:32:59.

This has put David -- Ed Miliband into a very difficult position. He

:32:59.:33:03.

doesn't to rule out a referendum, but what is the official line now?

:33:03.:33:06.

I think it is that they do not want a referendum, but that is the

:33:07.:33:10.

answer just a now, as you say. They are trying to keep their options

:33:10.:33:14.

open. They will probably get forced into accepting a referendum at some

:33:14.:33:18.

point. A lot of people in the party would like to get ahead of the game

:33:18.:33:21.

by essentially saying that before David Cameron had come out in

:33:21.:33:24.

favour of one, which means that Ed Miliband is now on the back foot,

:33:24.:33:28.

but his position is not as bad as some people would like to pretend.

:33:28.:33:31.

Over the weekend we have seen David Cameron coming under pressure on

:33:31.:33:35.

Europe again, despite at speech last week, which was very well

:33:35.:33:39.

received. We have seen people like Boris Johnson coming out and saying,

:33:39.:33:43.

yes, I would be prepared to campaign to take us out of the EU.

:33:43.:33:46.

That is not something we have heard from David Cameron, but it is

:33:46.:33:49.

something his troops will be demanding in the weeks ahead.

:33:49.:33:58.

terms of demands, Emily, are those demands going to start very quickly

:33:58.:34:03.

from the Tory MPs who want to repatriate powers? That is the

:34:04.:34:09.

problem. This referendum is five years down the track. I cannot see

:34:09.:34:12.

many Tory Euro-sceptic backbenchers saying, OK, we will just wait for

:34:12.:34:16.

that. He is going to face increasing demands for all kinds of

:34:16.:34:20.

powers to come back, crime, Justice, all kinds of things, so this issue

:34:20.:34:27.

is not going to go away. Let's talk about boundaries. Tomorrow night,

:34:27.:34:30.

Lib Dem MPs will vote to postpone the review of parliamentary

:34:30.:34:34.

boundaries until after the next election, so what will that do to

:34:34.:34:38.

the harmony of the coalition? is a very important moment in the

:34:38.:34:43.

life of the coalition government. We are seeing for the first time,

:34:43.:34:47.

or we will see, Lib Dem ministers trying to defeat Tory plans. That's

:34:47.:34:51.

if everything goes to plan. In fact, I think it will be tighter than

:34:51.:34:55.

some people are expecting. I suspect the Tories have got some

:34:55.:34:58.

tricks up their sleeve to try to get it through, but very few of

:34:58.:35:02.

them seriously think they will win. What this does to the collision

:35:02.:35:04.

afterwards, it is going to be painful. Essentially you have got

:35:05.:35:08.

David Cameron at the moment fighting on two front. Today, the

:35:09.:35:12.

whips are out there trying to minimise a Tory rebellion by MPs

:35:12.:35:16.

who will face their seats going, which will be hugely embarrassing

:35:16.:35:19.

to David Cameron. The whips are desperately trying to minimise that,

:35:19.:35:24.

but tomorrow, the real test, that will be when he tries to gather

:35:24.:35:27.

together the backbenchers who maybe still feeling the warm glow from

:35:27.:35:30.

his Europe speech, to explain to them why they will probably be

:35:30.:35:34.

losing the next election. Tomorrow evening could be the day that David

:35:34.:35:40.

Cameron loses the 2015 election. you see it in those terms, Emily?

:35:40.:35:44.

Yes, it is quite crucial to David Cameron. You can see that there are

:35:44.:35:48.

still mutterings about his leadership. The 2015 Election does

:35:48.:35:52.

depend on anything he can do to help himself to win that, which

:35:52.:35:56.

includes these 20 extra seats. So, he desperately wants to get this

:35:56.:36:00.

through. If this vote does not go the right way for him tomorrow, he

:36:00.:36:03.

needs to leave it, because these Boundary Commission review has been

:36:03.:36:06.

going on and on, and it has been costing millions of pounds.

:36:07.:36:16.
:36:17.:36:17.

Taxpayers want to say, OK, enough is enough. Because I have been

:36:17.:36:21.

joined by the Conservative MP Andrea Leadsom and my other guests

:36:21.:36:26.

for the rest of the show... Starting with you, Dan Rogerson,

:36:26.:36:31.

would you be happy to go into coalition with the Conservatives,

:36:31.:36:35.

promising tamarin in a referendum? I would be happy to go into

:36:35.:36:38.

coalition with either of the party's comedy spending on how they

:36:38.:36:41.

frame their policies at the general election. That is what we are doing

:36:41.:36:48.

at the moment. We have got some of these constitutional reform issues

:36:48.:36:51.

to take into account. We will do anything to deliver what we said we

:36:51.:36:57.

wanted to do.. But you are not in favour of this referendum. I am in

:36:57.:37:00.

politics to get things done, not just to talk about things. Having

:37:00.:37:06.

said that, we are not likely to be in a position of having a majority,

:37:06.:37:09.

so if we are in that kind of situation, we will have to work

:37:09.:37:13.

with another party again. Europe is a key issue for the

:37:13.:37:18.

Liberal Democrats, and Nick Clegg has said this referendum would

:37:18.:37:21.

damage the economic stability of the country. Why would you go into

:37:21.:37:26.

coalition with them? Because it is not the only issue. That is the

:37:26.:37:30.

crucial thing. If I speak to my constituents, there are some for

:37:30.:37:34.

whom the European issues are what keeps them interested in politics,

:37:34.:37:37.

but they're a small bunch of people, the vast majority are interested in

:37:37.:37:44.

the economy, the environment and things like that. The gamble would

:37:44.:37:48.

be that Britain comes out, because it would be up to the people, and

:37:48.:37:51.

you would be the government, a Liberal Democrat government which

:37:51.:37:59.

presided over that? I think people are entitled to decide, but

:37:59.:38:02.

artificially trying to bring it to a head would be the wrong thing to

:38:02.:38:05.

do. It should be at a time when there is a genuine treaty

:38:05.:38:10.

negotiation on a particular issue. Your party is not going to be

:38:10.:38:14.

setting out which powers it intends to bring back to this country until

:38:14.:38:18.

after the next election, are you happy about that? Actually,

:38:18.:38:22.

negotiations are going on the whole time. There are issues like the one

:38:22.:38:30.

over banking union, like the use of the veto on financial services...

:38:30.:38:34.

But we heard from David Lidington over the weekend, any powers would

:38:34.:38:37.

not start until the manifesto is drawn up, so you can see which

:38:37.:38:42.

powers they want to repatriate, and those negotiations will not start

:38:43.:38:48.

until at least two years down the line. I am sorry, but I do not

:38:48.:38:51.

agree. There are already positions being taken by the Government of

:38:51.:38:56.

some of these issues. As you know, the government is minded to opt out

:38:56.:39:00.

of the justice and home affairs 130 rules which we have an opt-out from.

:39:00.:39:04.

That has to be exercised by the middle of 2014. So, there are

:39:04.:39:06.

certain measures which the Government is trying to do, for

:39:06.:39:10.

example, making some sense of the Common Fisheries Policy. But

:39:10.:39:14.

because of the timescale, those issues will needed -- will need to

:39:14.:39:20.

be sorted out before 2015. If these powers are not repatriated, Will

:39:20.:39:25.

you be voting no in any referendum? There may well be some powers which

:39:25.:39:29.

we were not calling for. It may be that there were some treaty changes

:39:29.:39:33.

which we were not calling for, and some that we poor. It will be very

:39:34.:39:40.

important that each individual.... For you, personally, we you vote

:39:40.:39:44.

no? I could countenance it, but I think Britain would be better off

:39:44.:39:49.

staying in the EU. Which member states of the EU are pushing for

:39:49.:39:53.

reform, and threatening exit if they do not get what they want?

:39:53.:39:58.

am not aware that any other EU number is threatening exit, but nor

:39:58.:40:02.

is Britain. We are talking about a referendum. Other member states

:40:02.:40:07.

have had referendums. Well, they are using the threat of an exit.

:40:07.:40:11.

do not think that is white. We are not threatening to leave. What we

:40:11.:40:14.

are saying is, we will renegotiate, but having done that, the people of

:40:14.:40:17.

Britain will get the opportunity to say whether they want to be in on

:40:18.:40:22.

the terms of the negotiation or whether they want to leave. At the

:40:22.:40:24.

negotiating table, everybody will be aware that that is the

:40:24.:40:30.

possibility. What I'm saying is, no other member states are pushing for

:40:30.:40:36.

that, are they? They do not seem to be at the moment. Was it wise of Ed

:40:36.:40:45.

Miliband to seemingly rule out an in out referendum? What he actually

:40:45.:40:51.

ruled out was a referendum now. Well he did actually seem to say,

:40:51.:40:55.

no referendum. So you understand it that there is a chance of a

:40:55.:41:01.

referendum? I do not see that it is on the table particularly. But as

:41:01.:41:06.

we have just seen from consular's and so, we have got the issue of an

:41:06.:41:10.

in out referendum on the table from the Tories, without any idea of

:41:10.:41:17.

what it is that we are advocating even on the basis of. Andrea

:41:17.:41:21.

Leadsom cannot even answer whether she would vote yes or No 1 that

:41:21.:41:24.

referendum, and the same goes for the rest of the Tory party. So,

:41:24.:41:28.

this has created huge uncertainty about our ongoing membership of the

:41:28.:41:32.

EU. Businesses up and down this country, in quite an unprecedented

:41:32.:41:36.

step, have been coming out and saying that this is really damaging

:41:36.:41:40.

for investment in the economy. And just at the time when the Tory

:41:40.:41:47.

party should be focusing 100% on getting the economy moving.. What

:41:47.:41:51.

do you say to that argument about instability? Both the Liberal

:41:51.:41:58.

Democrats and Labour have said this... That is such a

:41:58.:42:01.

misrepresentation of the situation. Over the last few years there has

:42:01.:42:04.

been increasing, massive uncertainty, because of the lack of

:42:05.:42:07.

democratic accountability in the European Union. The eurozone

:42:08.:42:11.

financial crisis, and all of these other things, have meant that the

:42:11.:42:15.

eurozone is changing. They have to move towards greater fiscal

:42:15.:42:18.

integration, which means... What we have seen happening in Europe, as

:42:19.:42:25.

you have just described, is a more flexible Europe, where, depending

:42:25.:42:30.

on your own national interests, you either opt in or opt out of various

:42:30.:42:34.

things. So, some countries have opted into the financial

:42:34.:42:38.

transaction tax, but Britain has not. We obviously will not be part

:42:38.:42:41.

of the conversations about the eurozone and what action needs to

:42:41.:42:45.

be taken there, because we are not in the euro. So, this is what

:42:45.:42:54.

Europe is already doing. The key point is that the eurozone is

:42:54.:42:59.

changing. They have to move closer to a country called Europe. To

:42:59.:43:03.

simply maintain the status quo is not a realistic option. Do you

:43:03.:43:06.

think David Cameron would have made that speech without awe of the

:43:06.:43:12.

pressure from your backbenchers? Yes, I think that what the Prime

:43:12.:43:16.

Minister has done Tiffney, he has taken his time to consider where he

:43:16.:43:21.

thinks the EU is going. He has been very focused on they go need for

:43:21.:43:26.

greater integration in the area of currency, but at the same time, for

:43:27.:43:33.

Britain to lead them towards greater democratic accountability

:43:33.:43:36.

and a new settlement for Britain. Some key questions which we have

:43:36.:43:40.

raised there. Fisheries and agriculture, they do be

:43:40.:43:44.

renegotiated anyway. That is nothing to do with his repatriation.

:43:44.:43:47.

That is what all governments in Europe are involved in. What I am

:43:47.:43:56.

confused about, with regard to the Prime Minister, on this, is what

:43:56.:44:02.

exactly might be negotiated. I tried to amend the bill when it was

:44:02.:44:05.

going through. I am in favour of the principle of reducing the

:44:05.:44:13.

number of MPs. You are going to vote against it? The issue for me

:44:13.:44:17.

is, at the time when we announced an increasing number of unelected

:44:17.:44:21.

politicians in the House of Lords, we are being asked to vote for

:44:21.:44:24.

cutting the number of elected politicians. That is not what I got

:44:24.:44:27.

into the coalition to do. As the Conservative Party were not able to

:44:27.:44:31.

deliver on getting rid of some of the unelected politicians, it would

:44:31.:44:36.

be absolutely wrong to cut down on the democratically elected element.

:44:36.:44:41.

This would be the wrong time to do that. Briefly, how angry with you

:44:41.:44:46.

and your colleagues be over this? Well, it is a great tragedy that

:44:46.:44:51.

obviously, it makes sense for there to be regularisation of the number

:44:51.:44:55.

of voters in each constituency.... And it will not deliver you as

:44:55.:44:59.

easily a victory? Well, what we are looking for is a level playing

:44:59.:45:02.

field. We are not looking for favouritism towards the

:45:02.:45:05.

Conservatives, we are looking for equalisation of the number of

:45:05.:45:09.

voters in seats and a reduction in the number of MPs. That is in

:45:09.:45:12.

everybody's interest in the country. It is quite astonishing that

:45:12.:45:22.

neither Labour nor the Lib Dems We all know what high Energy Bills

:45:22.:45:31.

are like. The average annual bill is now �1400. There's a scheme

:45:31.:45:33.

launching today that ministers say will provide savings. One minister

:45:33.:45:39.

has been quoted as saying - is this transformational? Yes, is this the

:45:39.:45:43.

biggest home improvement programme since the Second World War? Yes.

:45:43.:45:47.

You're dying to know who it is. Wait no longer, it's Greg Barker,

:45:47.:45:52.

the Energy and Climate Change Minister. Welcome. What a great

:45:52.:45:57.

introduction. Do you still stand by that? Absolutely. Why? Is it,

:45:57.:46:01.

nothing like this has been tried before. We have a huge challenge.

:46:01.:46:05.

This isn't going to be an overnight flash in the pan. We're talking

:46:05.:46:11.

about a framework to see us through into the 2020s. This isn't a stop-

:46:11.:46:16.

go programme. The framework will bring unprecedented choice and

:46:16.:46:21.

empoirplt to consumers who want to improve their homes. How many

:46:21.:46:26.

people have signed up to the Green Deal? It only went live this

:46:26.:46:30.

morning. It's a bitterlyy to write oaf a 20-year programme about three

:46:30.:46:35.

hours in. I'm not writing it off. I just asked how many people have

:46:35.:46:40.

signed up. I have been told that people have starleted writing plans

:46:40.:46:45.

this morning, but it went live today. So the story that only five

:46:45.:46:49.

people signed up and there was a computer glitch wasn't true. That

:46:49.:46:56.

was to do with assessments and that is out of date. Hundreds, maybe

:46:56.:47:01.

thousands have booked assessments in anticipation of being able to

:47:01.:47:03.

write a Green Deal plan this morning. Give it time. We're not

:47:03.:47:06.

claiming overnight success. This isn't a big rush. We're going to

:47:06.:47:10.

build over the coming months and years to achieve that objective.

:47:10.:47:13.

What people will want to know and the reason they'll sign up is

:47:13.:47:16.

they'll want savings in Energy Bills. How can you guarantee

:47:16.:47:20.

savings from this scheme? We can't guarantee savings because if

:47:20.:47:27.

somebody decides to buy a series of plasma TVs or to suddenly put up

:47:27.:47:32.

their central heating to 24, rather than 22, of course their bill is

:47:32.:47:38.

going to go up. What we can do is give sensible, conservative

:47:38.:47:42.

estimates on a like for like basis on what their energy costs have

:47:42.:47:46.

been and what they are likely to be if they take these measures. That's

:47:46.:47:51.

the Green Deal golden rule. Under that basis, projected savings

:47:51.:47:55.

should always be greater than the finance costs. Even after you've

:47:55.:48:00.

put these measures in, which can be a range of things, from double

:48:00.:48:04.

glazing, new lighting, a new front door, even, a boiler, heating

:48:04.:48:07.

system, a whole range of things that people actually want and are

:48:08.:48:11.

going to improve their home that actually they should still be

:48:11.:48:15.

better off and they'll be insulated not only against the cold but

:48:15.:48:19.

against future rises in bills as well. It's a high interest rate at

:48:19.:48:23.

7%, when you think of interest rates at the moment. There's a big

:48:23.:48:28.

gap between 0.5% and 7% which will make people think those savings are

:48:28.:48:32.

just not going to be achievable. Firstly that interest rate is fixed

:48:32.:48:38.

for 20 years. Secondly, it's a lot cheaper than any comparable finance

:48:38.:48:43.

on the High Street. If you try and finance a kitchen or a conservatory

:48:43.:48:51.

or a bathroom, compare that to the finance you'll be available through

:48:51.:48:56.

store cards, personal loans or an APR sometimes of 20% on some of

:48:56.:49:00.

these schemes. Actually for the vast majority of people that offers

:49:00.:49:04.

a really good deal for long-term, fair finance. OK. Greg Barker,

:49:04.:49:09.

thank you very much. How optimistic are you that millions will take up

:49:09.:49:13.

this deal? As we've heard from the minister, probably not today. In

:49:13.:49:19.

the long-term, absolutely. I've had constituents of mine who have had

:49:19.:49:22.

these pre-consultation things. We've ht people going round talking

:49:22.:49:26.

to people on the doorstep and they're keen to get started. The

:49:26.:49:30.

key thing is people feel a benefit in terms of energy savings, but

:49:30.:49:34.

also, will know that this money is going as far as it can. It would be

:49:34.:49:38.

great if the Government has huge amounts of cash, but it doesn't. Ip

:49:38.:49:42.

stead of piling in Government money, it's a way tone courage people to

:49:42.:49:45.

do it themselves. As a country there's a carbon saving as well.

:49:45.:49:49.

This is a market-based framework. The Government is keen to see this

:49:49.:49:53.

market work. Is leaving it to the market the best way to improve

:49:53.:49:57.

energy efficiencyy in homes? As I say, we haven't got the money in

:49:57.:50:01.

this country to invest huge amounts of money needed to insulate every

:50:01.:50:06.

home. So there has to be some market solution. The Government can

:50:06.:50:11.

frame that so it works for the consumer and encourages creating

:50:11.:50:18.

jobs as well? Will be -- will you be signing up? Yes, I'd love to. I

:50:18.:50:21.

was thinking over the weekend, I would be quite interested in doing

:50:21.:50:28.

it. What's putting you off? Well, because I live in a very old, stone

:50:28.:50:31.

house with very thick stone walls and we did actually when we moved

:50:31.:50:36.

into it, think about the fact that it would be drafty. It has

:50:36.:50:39.

technical problems. We put some solar panels on the roof and so we

:50:39.:50:44.

do in the summer get completely free hot water and no fume costs at

:50:44.:50:48.

all. It's very attractive -- fuel costs at all. It's very attractive.

:50:48.:50:53.

You should look at it. Was your response to the idea? I think it's

:50:53.:50:58.

a perfectly laudable objective, but it's -- as with lots of other

:50:58.:51:01.

things, the devil is in the detail. You're right to raise the point

:51:01.:51:05.

about interest rates. The minister is wrong. There High Street

:51:05.:51:09.

interest rates for personal loans at the moment are comparable to

:51:09.:51:13.

this rate. You've seen a lot of consumer groups over the last few

:51:14.:51:17.

weeks and this morning saying there are a number of hidden costs here,

:51:18.:51:21.

which when you look into it, will put people off. The assessments

:51:21.:51:26.

that you're talking about, costing between �100 and �150. You only get

:51:26.:51:34.

that money back if you then take up the offer of the - from the company.

:51:34.:51:40.

There's worries about koibs entering the marketplace. I worry

:51:40.:51:43.

about older constituents who might be mis-sold things on the doorstep

:51:43.:51:47.

and on the phone. We need greater protection for the consumer. We

:51:47.:51:52.

need to look at the interest rate again. The outlay will put off

:51:52.:51:55.

poorer households, I suggest, and also, they may not get those

:51:55.:51:59.

savings for a while. I cannot see how many poorer households will be

:51:59.:52:04.

attracted to this idea and they're the ones, we all are, keen to cut

:52:04.:52:07.

costs? That's the purpose of the planning process. They have to be

:52:07.:52:10.

able to demonstrate that they will save money and save energy too. It

:52:10.:52:13.

real sli getting that golden rule right. That's what the planning

:52:14.:52:17.

process should do. We need to get the message across that we should

:52:18.:52:20.

look at different companies to ensure they have the best deal

:52:20.:52:23.

possible. Believe it or not, we are in the middle of an election

:52:24.:52:26.

campaign in Westminster. Haven't you heard? Sadly, the electorate

:52:26.:52:34.

for this one is limited. In fact it's restricted to hereditary peers.

:52:34.:52:39.

Giles has donned his iep -- finest tweed to tell you more.

:52:39.:52:44.

There you are. Yes, pay attention chaps, oh,

:52:44.:52:50.

chappesss in this new world, a quick word about hereditary peers.

:52:50.:52:55.

1999 passing of the lourdz act, most hereditary peers cleared off,

:52:55.:53:03.

all except 92. They are made up of 42 Conservatives, ah, a haunch of

:53:03.:53:06.

cross-backbenchers, a smatters of Lib Dems and three Labour. These

:53:06.:53:10.

days the general feeling is that taking part in the Democrat proik

:53:10.:53:15.

ses by right of birth isn't on, well unless you're the Queen of

:53:15.:53:20.

course, means those peers in the House of Lords are elected. In

:53:20.:53:26.

November last year, the 13th Earl Ferrers died creating a vacancy in

:53:26.:53:32.

the Conservative ranks of sitting peers. Now, his fellow hereditary

:53:32.:53:37.

sitting peers become the electorate and candidates from the register of

:53:37.:53:40.

hereditary peers, who don't sit, throw themselves forward for

:53:41.:53:44.

election. Ironically it takes place under the AV system. The result

:53:44.:53:49.

will be known on the 5th of February. I'd love to explain more,

:53:49.:53:56.

but I huge part of Gloucestershire to run.

:53:56.:54:01.

Oh, life is tough at the top for some people. Joining me now is Lord

:54:01.:54:05.

Sudeley, who has put himself up for election. Lord Sudeley welcome to

:54:05.:54:11.

the programme. Why do you want to do this? Well, two things, I

:54:11.:54:15.

particularly want to bring pieces of business, I'd like toe bring

:54:15.:54:20.

before the House of Lords. The first reflects the bankruptcy of my

:54:20.:54:23.

great grandfather the fourth Lord Sudeley at a place in

:54:24.:54:27.

Gloucestershire called Toddington, personally designed so he was

:54:27.:54:31.

chairman of the commission for the rebuilding of the Houses of

:54:31.:54:35.

Parliament. With the debt accumulated my great grandfather

:54:35.:54:42.

had, he was in debt to about half of what he had. But then he to

:54:42.:54:48.

suffer a bank foreclosure which meant everything going forward...

:54:48.:54:52.

OK. You have a personal back story, but why is it important, why is it

:54:52.:54:56.

important that we have elections for hereditary peers to replace

:54:56.:55:01.

those who've passed on? At least some element of the hereditary

:55:01.:55:05.

element has been kept in the constitution. Democracy now has

:55:05.:55:08.

become a very clean word. I don't think that necessarily has to be

:55:08.:55:13.

the case. In the 18th century we had something which our ancestors

:55:13.:55:19.

called the mixed constitution derived from Aristotle and under

:55:19.:55:25.

such arrangement I believe it was more balanced on the -- whilst

:55:25.:55:30.

elected to the constitution. What about the election process itself?

:55:30.:55:34.

Do you have to give a speech? I made an electoral address for

:55:35.:55:38.

about three minutes. It's not the first time you've gone for this, is

:55:38.:55:43.

it? No, I've done it six times already. I mean, and I presume

:55:43.:55:47.

failed to become elected. Why do you want to put yourself through

:55:47.:55:51.

it? Well, because there's certain things, I was beginning to start to

:55:51.:55:57.

explain one element of the business. Yes, you were. But you're so keen

:55:57.:56:02.

you're prepared to go through the election snfrbgts oh, yes, that

:56:02.:56:07.

doesn't bother me at all. How are you rating your chance that's time?

:56:07.:56:15.

I have 26 competitors. I always was a bit a maverick, so my chances

:56:15.:56:19.

there by possibly rendered a little slighter, I don't know. Good luck.

:56:19.:56:25.

And all the others standing. Thank you for coming onto the programme.

:56:25.:56:32.

Are there too many peers in the House of Lords? Yes. Would you like

:56:32.:56:36.

to see the rest of the hereditary peers go? As Liberal Democrats we

:56:36.:56:40.

wanted to see a Democratically elected House of Lords. That's what

:56:40.:56:44.

we're working towards. Part of the issue we're having with the

:56:44.:56:47.

boundaries in the House of Commons is because we haven't succeeded in

:56:47.:56:54.

reforming the House of Lords. He's a very nice chap, but it's an odd

:56:54.:56:59.

processes, especially elected by AV, which is an irony. We know what the

:56:59.:57:03.

Liberal Democrats position is, why is the Deputy Prime Minister set to

:57:03.:57:07.

create 50 new peers this week? Because we didn't successfully

:57:07.:57:17.
:57:17.:57:18.

reform the lourdz. It does seem hypocritical. We need to correct it.

:57:18.:57:22.

I prefer a democratic House of Lords. What do you think of the

:57:22.:57:26.

election? No disrespect to Lord Sudeley, is it? Yes. Do you not

:57:26.:57:32.

know him? He couldn't be a better advert for House of Lords reform.

:57:32.:57:36.

Obviously, Labour began the process of House of Lords reform. We got

:57:36.:57:40.

rid of 90% of hereditary peers. We should have got rid of them all. We

:57:40.:57:44.

still should get rid of them all. We'd be happy to work with the

:57:44.:57:47.

Liberal Democrats and others - didn't want to vote for the means

:57:47.:57:52.

to do it. We felt there should be more Parliamentary time. We would

:57:52.:57:55.

have voted for it and your Government withdrew the bill at

:57:55.:57:59.

that point. As you say, we're having this very important vote on

:57:59.:58:04.

boundaries this week. It is about cutting the number of MPs. It's the

:58:04.:58:08.

very same week that we're seeing David Cameron creating I think the

:58:08.:58:13.

largest number of unelected peers. I just find that absolutely

:58:13.:58:17.

hypocritical. Should we get rid of the hereditary peers? I actually

:58:17.:58:22.

think we probably should, at the same time, I think that we throw

:58:22.:58:27.

away our heritage and tradition as -- traditions at our peril. One of

:58:27.:58:31.

the advantages of the Lord's has been that there's been real

:58:31.:58:35.

expertise. There's a couple of peers that I've met recently, who

:58:35.:58:39.

are real experts in things like neuroscience, in human rights and

:58:39.:58:43.

so on, who bring a real case to bear that perhaps through the

:58:43.:58:46.

democratic selection process, you might not get quite that same level

:58:46.:58:52.

Jo Coburn with the latest political news, interviews and debate. She is joined by business woman Heather Rabbatts to discuss the high-speed rail announcement and also whether there should be more women working in business; are quotas are necessary?


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