06/02/2013 Daily Politics


06/02/2013

Jo Coburn and Andrew Neil are joined by Michael Fallon and Sadiq Khan to discuss the political fallout from the gay marriage vote, as well as Prime Minister's Questions.


Similar Content

Browse content similar to 06/02/2013. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

Morning, folks. This is the Daily Politics. They have been arguing

:00:39.:00:43.

about it all week. Last night, MPs voted to allow gay men and women to

:00:43.:00:47.

get married. So is that the end of the story? Or will those who

:00:47.:00:50.

disagree fight on in the committee stages and the House of Lords?

:00:50.:00:54.

What went wrong with our health service in Staffordshire? We know

:00:54.:00:57.

that thousands of patients received appalling standards of care.

:00:57.:01:01.

Hundreds died. Why? We will bring you the results of the official

:01:01.:01:06.

investigation. We meet the man who wants to rip up

:01:06.:01:12.

the rules about building houses and see an end to buy-to-let landlords.

:01:12.:01:16.

The decibel level is far too high. The Prime Minister should not have

:01:16.:01:19.

to shout. Just how noisy is the Chamber

:01:19.:01:23.

during PMQs? We will have the results of a special Daily Politics

:01:23.:01:28.

experiment to find out. All that in the next hour and a

:01:28.:01:31.

half. Joining us for the duration, Business Minister Michael Fallon

:01:31.:01:34.

and Shadow Justice Secretary Sadiq Khan.

:01:34.:01:40.

But first - the big vote last night. If you have been watching the Daily

:01:40.:01:43.

Politics this week, you will know that MPs on both sides of the House

:01:43.:01:49.

have deeply held beliefs about gay marriage. David Cameron has always

:01:49.:01:52.

said that he believes people should be able to marry their same-sex

:01:52.:01:57.

partners, not despite being a Tory, but because he is a Tory. Which has

:01:57.:02:02.

not quite convinced a major chunk of the Tory party. Last night when

:02:02.:02:05.

MPs had their first vote on the issue, more Tory backbenchers voted

:02:05.:02:11.

against than for it, and a large number abstained.

:02:11.:02:16.

This bill is about one thing. It is about fairness, it is about giving

:02:16.:02:20.

those who want to get married the opportunity to do so whilst

:02:20.:02:25.

protecting the rights of those who do not agree with same-sex marriage.

:02:25.:02:31.

The definition of marriage is based on the definition of sex. In the

:02:31.:02:36.

19th and did three Act, it is impossible, absolutely impossible,

:02:36.:02:43.

to shoehorn in same-sex marriage and to provide equality -- 1973 Act.

:02:43.:02:49.

We have discriminated against Catholics, women, people from

:02:49.:02:53.

ethnic minorities, but very gradually, not always completely

:02:53.:02:59.

but perceptibly, this House has passed legislation to remove such

:02:59.:03:04.

discrimination. Is this not another example to do so? Are the marriages

:03:04.:03:08.

of millions of straight people about to be threatened because a

:03:08.:03:11.

few thousand gay people are permitted to join? What will they

:03:11.:03:17.

say? Our marriage is over, Sir Elton John has just got engaged to

:03:17.:03:23.

David Furnish. If the government is serious about this, take it away,

:03:23.:03:29.

or abolish the civil partnerships Bill, abolish civil marriage, and

:03:29.:03:34.

create a civil union bill that applies to all people, irrespective

:03:34.:03:39.

of their sexuality or relationships, and that means brothers and

:03:39.:03:43.

brothers and sisters and sisters and brothers and sisters.

:03:43.:03:48.

cheeses are I know was born illegitimate, a refugee, with eight

:03:48.:03:54.

death warrant on his name -- cheeses that I know. That is why it

:03:54.:04:02.

is right for those to vote on this bill -- Jesus I know.

:04:02.:04:05.

Well in the end, there was a huge Parliamentary majority in favour of

:04:05.:04:10.

gay marriage on this, the first vote on the matter. David Cameron,

:04:10.:04:14.

Ed Miliband and Nick Clegg all voted in favour. But 136

:04:14.:04:17.

Conservatives, 22 Labour and four Lib Dem MPs did not follow their

:04:17.:04:21.

leaders into the division lobbies on a free vote. Michael Fallon was

:04:21.:04:25.

one of them. Why could David Cameron not persuade you? It was a

:04:25.:04:30.

free vote, it was not political. That is the point of the a free

:04:30.:04:35.

vote. It is up for each member and Minister to vote according to their

:04:35.:04:40.

own conscience. But he spoke openly and consistently in favour of gay

:04:40.:04:45.

marriage, wanting to encourage as many Conservative MPs to follow him.

:04:45.:04:50.

What was it about the issue that could not persuade you? You would

:04:50.:04:55.

have been pretty scornful to announce a free vote and then 95%

:04:55.:04:59.

of Conservative MPs went into the lobby behind him. But David Cameron

:04:59.:05:04.

will be disappointed. There are divisions in the party about this

:05:04.:05:09.

and in the country. If you are coming to redefine one of the

:05:09.:05:13.

central institutions in society, you probably need to do so on the

:05:13.:05:18.

basis of a lot more concerned than exists at the moment. But the

:05:18.:05:21.

majority of people in parliament voted the other way, I was wrong,

:05:21.:05:26.

and we have to accept that. Do you think people in your party who

:05:26.:05:31.

voted in favour listened to you and your colleagues concerned? Yes, we

:05:31.:05:36.

had a passionate e-mails from each side and if I may say so I think

:05:36.:05:41.

the debate yesterday should parliament at its best. Some very

:05:41.:05:45.

powerful speeches on both sides. I think a reasonable amount of

:05:45.:05:50.

respect from each side. You do? Some people clearly feel very

:05:50.:05:54.

strongly that we should not discriminate against gay people.

:05:54.:05:58.

Other people think there is something special about marriage

:05:58.:06:03.

that needs to be protected. But it is not over yet. This does not mean

:06:03.:06:11.

that a gay couple can go out next weekend and get married. No. I am

:06:11.:06:17.

pleased that society can recognise love and relationships. The entire

:06:17.:06:24.

Shadow Cabinet had a free vote and 85% voted in favour. It has to go

:06:24.:06:28.

to committee upstairs, then it comes to report stage and a third

:06:28.:06:31.

reading and then it will go to the House of Lords, so it will be a

:06:32.:06:36.

number of months before it is finally through parliament. What

:06:36.:06:39.

will happen a lot in the parliamentary road? Will you and

:06:39.:06:44.

your colleagues tried to amend the bill? Or your colleagues in the

:06:44.:06:50.

House of Lords? I certainly won't. It was a massive majority, as Sadiq

:06:50.:06:54.

Khan has said. We have to respect the view of the House of Commons.

:06:54.:06:59.

Maybe other colleagues will quibble about the details of the

:06:59.:07:04.

legislation. It is important that the protections for the Church are

:07:04.:07:09.

robust and violet. Then, don't forget, there is a second phase in

:07:10.:07:14.

parliament -- robust and valid. The Commons has spoke and I think those

:07:14.:07:17.

of us to oppose the bill need to respect the majority who were in

:07:17.:07:22.

favour. The do you think there will be any attempts to amend the bill

:07:22.:07:27.

in the House of Lords? I am sure there will be attempts to amend it,

:07:27.:07:31.

just like you have people bringing frivolous cases in the future that

:07:31.:07:37.

will not succeed. The key thing is to try to have as many mechanisms

:07:37.:07:41.

in the bill to respect religious freedom, article 9 in the European

:07:41.:07:45.

Convention. We need to make sure that there is faith groups are

:07:45.:07:50.

protected from their believes not being compromised. On that issue,

:07:50.:07:56.

you spoke of protections. As a Muslim, did you come under any

:07:56.:08:00.

pressure from Muslim faith groups to say, the Sadiq Khan, don't vote

:08:00.:08:07.

for this? I am an MP who is Muslim rather than a Muslim MP. Might

:08:07.:08:14.

consist it -- constituents are Catholics, Jewish people, Anglicans,

:08:14.:08:23.

Methodists, Hindu... I had communication from all sides. On

:08:23.:08:28.

all issues, not just this one. Should David Cameron have spoken in

:08:28.:08:33.

this debate, bearing in mind he has said such a lot about this issue?

:08:33.:08:38.

You are suggesting he should have been trying to bully his own

:08:38.:08:42.

ministers and members into following into the lobby. Would we

:08:42.:08:47.

not have expected to have heard from him? If you are the leader of

:08:47.:08:50.

the party and you have made this famous quotes of saying, I support

:08:50.:08:55.

gay rights because I am a Tory. He might have wanted to emphasise that

:08:55.:09:01.

during the debate or even listened to it? I think it is to his credit

:09:01.:09:07.

that he did not make this a party issue. There will be people who on

:09:07.:09:11.

matters of conscience would expect that from parliament. I don't think

:09:11.:09:16.

it would have sweet individual members and ministers for us. --

:09:17.:09:20.

would have swayed. People have very strong views on this. I don't think

:09:20.:09:28.

it would have made that much difference. Thank you.

:09:28.:09:33.

While we were talking we are just getting word of what is in the

:09:33.:09:37.

Francis report into the scandal of what happened in their mid-

:09:37.:09:46.

Staffordshire Hospital Trust in 2005 up to 2008. We understand the

:09:46.:09:53.

report calls for zero tolerance to poor standards of care. He says

:09:53.:09:57.

hospitals which failed to comply with this fundamental standard

:09:57.:10:04.

should be forced to close. He has made 290 sweeping recommendations

:10:04.:10:10.

for health care regulators and possibly a hospital inspectorate.

:10:10.:10:14.

He attacks the local health authorities and the trust board

:10:14.:10:18.

although he does not name any one individual and organisation for

:10:18.:10:22.

what he describes as the disaster at Stafford Hospital. If you

:10:22.:10:30.

remember, between 401,200 people died and at this hospital's trust

:10:30.:10:37.

care -- between 400 people and 1200 people died. The patients were

:10:37.:10:42.

forced to drink water from vases, lying in their own excrement,

:10:42.:10:46.

relatives forced to come in to look after them themselves. A long-

:10:46.:10:51.

running scandal in the NHS. We are just getting the report now. We

:10:51.:10:54.

will bring more as we get it and of course a statement by the Prime

:10:54.:10:58.

Minister to the Commons at 12:30pm. We will bring you that statement

:10:59.:11:02.

and reaction to it. Jo has the background.

:11:02.:11:08.

The yes. The public inquiry has investigated

:11:08.:11:11.

how managers and those charged with overseeing the NHS failed to do

:11:11.:11:16.

anything about the failings at Mid Staffordshire NHS Trust. In 2009

:11:16.:11:18.

the Healthcare Commission, the predecessor of the current Care

:11:18.:11:21.

Quality Commission, reported that at least 400 more patients died at

:11:21.:11:24.

Stafford Hospital between 2005 and 2009 than would have been expected,

:11:24.:11:31.

as a result of what it called That led to the government setting

:11:31.:11:34.

up an independent inquiry, chaired by Robert Francis QC, which looked

:11:34.:11:38.

at what went wrong more closely. So in 2010 he reported shocking

:11:38.:11:43.

details of how patients had been mistreated. There was a wholly

:11:43.:11:47.

unacceptable standard of hygiene, and deficient food. He also found

:11:47.:11:50.

there had been a chronic shortage of staff and that nurses had often

:11:50.:11:54.

been dismissive and uncaring. Robert Francis's second inquiry,

:11:54.:11:57.

which is what we are getting today, looks at the failures of management,

:11:57.:12:00.

oversight and regulation and will recommend changes to the structure

:12:00.:12:07.

of how NHS hospitals are monitored. The government has said it already

:12:07.:12:12.

wants a new duty of candour. Hospitals which tried to cover up

:12:12.:12:16.

bad care could be fined or even shut down. Francis is also likely

:12:17.:12:19.

to recommend establishing a new post of chief inspector of

:12:19.:12:23.

hospitals for England. And many here at Westminster will be looking

:12:23.:12:26.

at what he says closely to see if there is any criticism that can be

:12:26.:12:30.

laid at the door of the previous Labour government.

:12:30.:12:35.

The report is being published around now. For the latest, we are

:12:35.:12:45.
:12:45.:12:46.

joined by Phil Mackie from outside We already know from the previous

:12:46.:12:51.

reports just how shocking big hair was that went on here between 2005

:12:51.:12:59.

and 2009 -- just how shocking the care was. I spoke to a woman whose

:12:59.:13:08.

daughter was complaining for 18 months of stomach pains. She picked

:13:08.:13:13.

up so many different infections, C difficile and MRSA, it eventually

:13:13.:13:19.

killed her. That lady said she did not want heads to roll. She wanted

:13:19.:13:24.

reform to the NHS. That is what it is hoped the Francis report will

:13:24.:13:28.

bring for the many campaigners who have been hoping for various things,

:13:28.:13:32.

including allowing whistle-blow was more freedom to speak out, stopping

:13:32.:13:38.

gagging clauses, paying more attention to patients, and

:13:38.:13:43.

admitting more openly when things go wrong. But fundamentally to

:13:43.:13:47.

start at basic levels of care. Things that went on at Stafford

:13:47.:13:51.

Hospital were going on elsewhere in the country and probably still are.

:13:51.:13:56.

That is acknowledged in this report. This is why the report is seen as

:13:56.:14:02.

being so significant. We are just getting more from this report on

:14:02.:14:08.

the Mid Staffordshire Hospital NHS Trust. Fundamental rights denied,

:14:08.:14:13.

appalling and unnecessary suffering, lack of care, compassion, humanity

:14:13.:14:18.

and leadership. The words of Francis QC, who has

:14:18.:14:23.

led this latest report. His second report into what happened.

:14:23.:14:26.

We are joined by Mike Farrar, the chief executive of the NHS

:14:26.:14:28.

Confederation, which represents hospitals and other organisations

:14:28.:14:38.
:14:38.:14:48.

This is probably the worst record of care in the NHS since it was

:14:48.:14:52.

founded in the 1940s. Why have there been no criminal charges, no

:14:52.:14:59.

sackings, nobody struck off by the GMC? I would echo your view that

:14:59.:15:03.

this is one of the worst days in the NHS's history. As somebody who

:15:03.:15:07.

came into the service to do good things, I'm ashamed of what

:15:07.:15:10.

happened in Staffordshire. The actions against individuals of

:15:10.:15:14.

other regulatory bodies. Robert Francis is going to look at how

:15:14.:15:19.

this regulatory bodies are working. Why have there been between 400 to

:15:19.:15:24.

1200 people died, were killed in effect, because of inadequate care?

:15:24.:15:31.

At the very most, at the very least, institutional manslaughter. Why

:15:31.:15:35.

have there been no criminal charges? It's really a question of

:15:35.:15:40.

what the regulatory regime allows us to do. I'm very interested in

:15:40.:15:43.

not just what punitive action and accountability needs to be taken

:15:43.:15:46.

for what happened, I'm really thinking of the way in which the

:15:46.:15:50.

patient that your correspondent mentioned said what we need to do

:15:50.:15:54.

was make sure this doesn't happen again. I know that's what you want

:15:54.:15:57.

to talk about, but let's look at what has happened. Why have only

:15:57.:16:03.

three of the doctors involved, why have only three been called now

:16:03.:16:09.

before the General Medical Council on fitness to practise? Why has

:16:09.:16:14.

nobody been struck off? I don't represent the General Medical

:16:14.:16:18.

Council's views. I think they have to think very seriously about this.

:16:18.:16:21.

If they want to reassure the public that they can have confidence in

:16:21.:16:26.

the NHS, then they need to take action, if appropriate, they need

:16:26.:16:32.

to act. It is for them to determine. Why is it the case that the chief

:16:32.:16:35.

executive of this hospital, who was in charge at the time and appointed

:16:35.:16:39.

by the man who is now the chief executive of the NHS, he left with

:16:39.:16:45.

a pay-off and now has another job in the health industry - why?

:16:45.:16:50.

is a big issue for Ross. People who are deemed to have been failing to

:16:50.:16:53.

the extent where they have not upheld the values of the health

:16:53.:16:57.

service, we shouldn't have a system whereby people are working again.

:16:57.:17:01.

But there are many cases where understanding what went wrong is a

:17:01.:17:05.

question of helping people explained and trying to put things

:17:05.:17:10.

right. You know as well as I do that rather than criminal charges

:17:10.:17:14.

and people being struck off, most of the people involved in the mid-

:17:14.:17:17.

Staffs spag bol have either taken pay-offs and disappeared or been

:17:17.:17:25.

moved around the NHS. Do you accept that it is perfectly possible,

:17:25.:17:30.

perhaps not in the grand, horrific scale of made it Staffs, that what

:17:30.:17:34.

happened there is happening now and other hospitals? I do believe it's

:17:34.:17:39.

lessons, we've got to think this is not just about one hospital. I

:17:40.:17:43.

don't think it's widespread and I don't think it's on anything like

:17:43.:17:47.

the scale. But there are issues in other hospitals where the culture

:17:47.:17:50.

of those organisations is the kind of thing we saw in mid-

:17:50.:17:53.

Staffordshire. What we need to do today is absolutely learn these

:17:54.:17:59.

lessons and be as honest and open as we can. We know that among

:17:59.:18:04.

doctors, clinicians and even medical students there's a list of

:18:04.:18:08.

hospitals that they wouldn't want to go to themselves or send friends

:18:08.:18:14.

or family to. Do you know that list? I do. I know a list not where

:18:14.:18:18.

people shouldn't go, but I know the list that describes the variation

:18:18.:18:23.

in performance between hospitals. Can we have that list? It should be

:18:23.:18:27.

made available. When I was in the north-west, my previous job, that's

:18:27.:18:31.

what we did. We published the variation in standards of care.

:18:31.:18:35.

What that did, importantly, was not only get the public access to

:18:35.:18:39.

understand that, but it was an incentive for the clinicians to

:18:39.:18:43.

improve their services. So you are confirming there is a secret list

:18:43.:18:46.

know within the NHS to which they themselves would not wish to be

:18:46.:18:52.

treated at, but we, the people who paid �2 billion a week for our

:18:52.:18:58.

services, we are not allowed to know that list. What I'm not saying

:18:58.:19:02.

is, there is not a secret list about where people want to be

:19:02.:19:06.

treated, but there is information within the service about the

:19:06.:19:09.

variability of performance. If we are to learn the lessons from its

:19:09.:19:13.

stature, we need to make it more public. The public need to see more

:19:13.:19:16.

about the variations. The case we've been making for change to

:19:16.:19:20.

improve our outcomes relies on the public understanding that

:19:20.:19:24.

variability. This is very important. This is a chance to open up and

:19:24.:19:27.

make sure the NHS, which belongs to the people,, we provide that data

:19:28.:19:32.

for them to see that variability. how could Labour have let this

:19:32.:19:38.

happen? It's shocking. The report that is coming out today, there

:19:38.:19:42.

will be nothing new in relation to the lack of care provided a full

:19:42.:19:45.

patients, we know from the first inquiry that the level of care

:19:45.:19:49.

inquiry was shocking. You boasted about being the party of the NHS.

:19:49.:19:53.

This was when you were in power, and you were travelling the amount

:19:53.:19:58.

of money spent on the NHS. This isn't the normal Tory cuts

:19:58.:20:01.

narratives. This happened on your watch when he was stuffing money

:20:01.:20:06.

into it. No excuses for Mid Staffordshire. But to extrapolate

:20:06.:20:09.

from Mid Staffordshire that the entire NHS has a problem, or that

:20:09.:20:12.

all the money invested in extra nurses and doctors was a waste of

:20:12.:20:20.

time would be wrong. Nobody is saying that. No one is saying that

:20:20.:20:27.

the entire NHS is like Mid-Staffs. Don't set up on and Sally on that.

:20:27.:20:31.

But what Mr Fallon has conceded is what is happening at Mid-Staffs

:20:31.:20:35.

could still be happening and has happened in other parts of the NHS.

:20:35.:20:39.

The reason why it's more likely to happen than not is because one of

:20:39.:20:43.

the lessons from Mid Staffordshire, in the emergency units there were

:20:43.:20:46.

50 % less doctors and nurses than they should have been. Another less

:20:46.:20:51.

that could lead to problems. We also know there are cultural

:20:51.:20:55.

problems where the management... results in patients having to drink

:20:55.:21:00.

water out of farce as. The report says there were less than half the

:21:00.:21:03.

levels of doctors and nurses in the indie than they should have been.

:21:04.:21:08.

I'm not using that as an excuse, and explaining the facts uncovered

:21:08.:21:13.

today by Robert Francis. Why didn't you have a public inquiry when you

:21:13.:21:20.

were in government? Andy Burnham ordered an inquiry. The important

:21:20.:21:23.

thing was to get the lessons quickly. Within five months, France

:21:23.:21:28.

has produced his first report. This public inquiry has taken two-and-a-

:21:28.:21:32.

half years. Not belittling the lessons learned today, but two-and-

:21:32.:21:37.

a-half years was too long. The man who was chairman of the Strategic

:21:37.:21:43.

Health Authorities under which Mid- Staffs came, and is strongly

:21:43.:21:46.

criticised in the Francis report, is the man who will point to the

:21:46.:21:50.

chief-executive to the Mid Staffs Hospital. He's now the man under

:21:50.:21:54.

your government who is the chairman of the NHS commissioning Board. How

:21:54.:21:58.

did that happen? He is, yes. We will have to see the report as to

:21:59.:22:03.

what level of responsibility Mr Francis attracts to him. But he

:22:04.:22:08.

wasn't the one running the hospital. He was supervising it. We need to

:22:08.:22:12.

be clear what this report says. It's one thing to say, how did

:22:12.:22:16.

Labour allow it to happen? If it emerges that it was Labour have

:22:16.:22:19.

encouraged it to happen through the target obsessed culture that all of

:22:19.:22:24.

these trusts were under, if that emerges today then we are certainly

:22:24.:22:30.

looking for an apology from former Labour ministers. Andy Burnham and

:22:30.:22:34.

Alan Johnston have both apologised. If it emerges that the results of

:22:34.:22:39.

the inquiry are that less regulations lead to catastrophe, as

:22:39.:22:42.

the minister in charge of reducing regulation, one of the downside of

:22:42.:22:45.

having been up regulation for managers is you can have this sort

:22:45.:22:48.

of problem. Managers who are doing an appalling job leave the trust,

:22:49.:22:52.

get a pay-off and go somewhere else within the organisation. It's

:22:52.:22:56.

important to point out there on reforms already on the way, partly

:22:56.:23:01.

as a result of the first report. Will any of these reforms address

:23:01.:23:07.

what happened at Mid Staffs? Most patients are checked hourly to make

:23:07.:23:12.

sure they are being fed properly, they are not dehydrated. But the

:23:12.:23:16.

crucial... It's not a target, that's a practice. To say patients

:23:16.:23:25.

should be checked hourly is a target. It's a rule. From April,

:23:25.:23:28.

GPs, if they are not happy but the hospital they preferred their

:23:28.:23:31.

patients to, they will be in the driving seat from this April and

:23:31.:23:35.

will be able to stop sending patients to a hospital like

:23:35.:23:38.

Stafford and transferred them elsewhere. For the first time, GPs

:23:38.:23:43.

will be properly in charge. Do we need an external hospital

:23:43.:23:47.

inspectorate, like a schools inspectorate that can go in, and if

:23:47.:23:51.

they discover even a shadow of what was happening at Mid-Staffs they

:23:51.:23:56.

say, either improve or you close? There's a very important point

:23:56.:23:59.

about the extent to which you rely on external regulation and

:23:59.:24:03.

inspection, for what is partly a job of the culture within that

:24:03.:24:06.

organisation. Because we've lost some of the public confidence,

:24:06.:24:10.

there is a strong argument about improving our regulatory system.

:24:10.:24:15.

What about an inspectorate? Staff gave great care when they feel

:24:15.:24:19.

really valued, not really inspected. We have to have a situation inside

:24:19.:24:23.

hospitals where people take ownership. That is incredibly vague.

:24:23.:24:28.

We don't know what the culture is until we are in hospital and are in

:24:28.:24:32.

no condition to argue about the culture. We are hoping at the very

:24:32.:24:35.

least we may get a glass of water and some decent care that we paid

:24:35.:24:39.

for through our taxes. Do we need an inspectorate to ensure that we

:24:39.:24:46.

don't end up in a hospital like Mid-Staffs? We already have

:24:46.:24:49.

inspection in the Care Quality Commission. Robert Francis will say

:24:49.:24:53.

it has not worked properly we need to look carefully at that. If we

:24:53.:24:58.

simply think this is about better regulation outside of the hospital,

:24:58.:25:03.

we miss the point of it. The NHS does 1 million consultations every

:25:03.:25:06.

36 hours. We can't expect all of that. You rely heavily on the staff

:25:06.:25:10.

at the bedside showing care and compassion, and you get that

:25:10.:25:14.

because you have a good culture in those hospitals. Inspection back

:25:14.:25:23.

that up but it starts with people inside the hospital do. We are

:25:23.:25:29.

going to go to PMQs at noon today. The Prime Minister will be making a

:25:29.:25:32.

statement. It is not the Health Secretary that is making a

:25:32.:25:36.

statement, which is indicative of the severity of this matter. The

:25:36.:25:43.

Prime Minister himself will make the statement on the Frances report.

:25:43.:25:49.

We will bring you part of that. In the run-up to PMQs, we always have

:25:49.:25:57.

what is the highlight of the fun side of the Daily Politics. There's

:25:57.:26:01.

almost nothing that money can't buy in the 21st century. In fact, we

:26:01.:26:05.

heard last night that if you have �20,000 to spare, you could have

:26:05.:26:09.

landed yourself but this fantastic work of art at a charity auction.

:26:10.:26:13.

Showing the care for penmanship of the Chancellor of the Exchequer,

:26:13.:26:18.

George Osborne. Vanguard he hasn't got anything else to do, like run

:26:18.:26:22.

the economy. It does look like he had to take the day off to finish

:26:22.:26:28.

that, does it? Even �20,000 is not enough for this. The Daily Politics

:26:28.:26:36.

mug. It is! Actually, you can only get it if you win our weekly Guess

:26:36.:26:46.
:26:46.:26:55.

the Year competition. Let's see if We have had Mr Powell in the party

:26:55.:27:05.
:27:05.:27:22.

until quite recently. Perhaps he # It's an ancient Chinese art and

:27:22.:27:32.
:27:32.:27:43.

# So how could I ever refuse. # I feel like I win when I lose.

:27:43.:27:53.
:27:53.:27:57.

# Waterloo, couldn't escape if I To begin with a chance of winning a

:27:57.:28:00.

Daily Politics mug, send your answer to our special quiz e-mail

:28:00.:28:04.

address which is on screen now. You can see the full terms and

:28:05.:28:14.
:28:15.:28:15.

It is coming up to midday. Let's take a look at Big Ben. It means

:28:15.:28:19.

only one thing. Prime Minister's Questions. Steve Richards of the

:28:19.:28:25.

Independent is here. Welcome back. The Mid-Staffs is the Big story,

:28:25.:28:30.

not just of the day but of the week, may be of the month. It's a service

:28:30.:28:35.

we all use and depend on. This is yet another appalling report on it.

:28:35.:28:39.

Because the Prime Minister is making a statement at 1230, am I

:28:39.:28:43.

right in thinking the leader of the opposition will not go on this at

:28:43.:28:47.

PMQs? Absolutely. He will be responding to David Cameron. It is

:28:47.:28:51.

fascinating that David Cameron has decided he is making the statement,

:28:51.:28:56.

on about 10 different levels. He will avoid that at PMQs. My guess

:28:56.:29:00.

is he will avoid gay marriage as well, because they agreed. There

:29:00.:29:03.

will probably be a joke about the division in the Tory parliamentary

:29:03.:29:06.

party, but I don't think you will go bit of that. On the banks, they

:29:07.:29:11.

are broadly in the same place at the moment. My guess is he would

:29:11.:29:14.

choose something else on which there is a big difference, welfare

:29:14.:29:24.

reform or something. The economy. If in doubt, use the economy. There

:29:24.:29:29.

will be a few jokes, but they will both be fully aware that the news

:29:29.:29:33.

story to emerge in the next hour or so will be their exchanges on Mid-

:29:33.:29:37.

Staffs. He and Cameron will be relatively relaxed about what

:29:37.:29:41.

follows in the next half-an-hour. Perhaps that will affect the mood

:29:41.:29:46.

of the house as well. That they know that following PMQs, there's

:29:46.:29:49.

something very serious about hundreds of lives that were lost,

:29:49.:29:54.

about a problem in the service that we are also proud of. It's a

:29:54.:29:58.

massive story. David Cameron obviously recognises the severity

:29:58.:30:03.

of the story. Clearly, every act is multi-layered. He sees some

:30:03.:30:07.

political advantage in making the statement. It happened under

:30:07.:30:10.

Labour's watch. But it's a really interesting story because in

:30:10.:30:14.

opposition, David Cameron would always say to me, if there's a

:30:14.:30:17.

problem in a single hospital, we will say, this is not a government

:30:18.:30:22.

problem, we have localised health care, it's their problem. He's

:30:22.:30:25.

doing the exact opposite and saying, look, I'm taking responsibility for

:30:25.:30:29.

this. He's done this kind of father of the nation at what the Bloody

:30:30.:30:33.

Sunday inquiry. He did it with Hillsborough. He was thought to do

:30:33.:30:37.

very well with both of these and be seen to speak about party issues.

:30:37.:30:42.

Were he tried to do the same with this? Tonally, perhaps, but this is

:30:42.:30:46.

also highly political. Everything to do with the NHS is. It's also to

:30:46.:30:51.

do with the present debate. I think he will part the use it to say,

:30:51.:30:55.

look, this is why we felt the need to reform the NHS. Unlike those

:30:56.:30:59.

previous statements, which he did brilliantly about past events,

:30:59.:31:03.

there's a political dimension to this one. It isn't clear to me how

:31:03.:31:07.

the Government's reforms, they made the right or wrong, but it's not

:31:07.:31:11.

clear how they would impact directly on the midst of City

:31:11.:31:16.

Whitton. I'm sorry, I asked that question and I can't take the

:31:16.:31:26.
:31:26.:31:34.

I thank my right honourable friend for the answer. Having given my

:31:34.:31:38.

right honourable friend notice of my question, which he may find

:31:38.:31:44.

useful in the sense that it is transparent and also very modern...

:31:44.:31:47.

Can my right honourable friend say that in response to the many

:31:47.:31:53.

concerns expressed in yesterday's debate, which he ensure that civil

:31:53.:31:56.

partnerships are open to heterosexual couples on an equal

:31:56.:32:01.

basis with homosexual couples? very grateful to my honourable

:32:01.:32:07.

friend for giving me notice of his questions. Frankly, I am a marriage

:32:07.:32:12.

man. I am a great supporter of marriage. I want to promote, defend

:32:12.:32:16.

and encourage marriage and the great thing about last night's vote

:32:16.:32:21.

is that two gay people who love it sure there will now be able to get

:32:21.:32:29.

married and I think we should be promoting marriage. Ed Miliband!

:32:29.:32:34.

Speaker, I want to ask the Prime Minister about the bedroom tax.

:32:34.:32:39.

Alison in Middlesbrough has 18- year-old twin sons in the army. The

:32:39.:32:43.

bedroom tax means that while her sons are a way, she will be charged

:32:43.:32:48.

more for their bedrooms. She says, I resent the fact that my sons are

:32:48.:32:52.

serving their country and in return will not have a home to come home

:32:52.:32:56.

to when they are granted their much-needed leaves. What is the

:32:56.:33:02.

Prime Minister's answer to Alison? Let me make clear, this is not

:33:02.:33:12.
:33:12.:33:16.

attacks, this is a benefit. -- a tax. First of all, it all the time

:33:16.:33:21.

that Labour was in government, if you were in a private sector rented

:33:21.:33:25.

home and you were in receipt of housing benefit, you did not get

:33:25.:33:30.

any benefit for empty rooms. That is important. It is only fair we

:33:30.:33:36.

treat people in social housing the same way. If anyone is away from

:33:36.:33:40.

home then obviously their earnings are not counted and therefore the

:33:40.:33:47.

benefits of that person are likely to go up. SHOUTING.

:33:47.:33:53.

I look forward to him explaining to Alison why her paying �25 a week

:33:53.:34:01.

more from April is not a tax on her! And as for his point about the

:34:01.:34:05.

private rented sector, I think he misunderstands the point of social

:34:05.:34:10.

housing. Part of its purpose is to protect the most vulnerable and

:34:10.:34:15.

according to the government's figures, two-thirds of the people

:34:15.:34:19.

hit a disabled. Let me tell the Prime Minister about any mail I

:34:19.:34:24.

received last week. It says, my wife has a degenerative condition

:34:24.:34:28.

and is cared for in bed. Due to her illness and my own medical

:34:28.:34:32.

conditions, I sleep in the spare bedroom.

:34:32.:34:37.

A why is it fair for him and hundreds of thousands of others,

:34:37.:34:43.

disabled people like him, to be hit by the bedroom tax? As with every

:34:43.:34:47.

honourable member, if he wants me or the Department of Work and

:34:47.:34:54.

Pensions to look at a specific case, of course I will. Let me make some

:34:54.:34:59.

detailed points of. First of all, there is a �50 million fund to deal

:34:59.:35:04.

with difficult cases. But let me also make the basic argument of

:35:04.:35:09.

fairness that he seems to miss. If you are in private renting housing

:35:09.:35:13.

and receive no housing benefit, you don't get money for an extra room.

:35:14.:35:18.

If you are in private housing and to get housing benefit, you don't

:35:18.:35:22.

get money for an extra room. So why should we be doing more for people

:35:22.:35:26.

in social housing on housing benefit of their own people in

:35:26.:35:30.

private housing on housing benefit? Another additional point that

:35:30.:35:37.

frankly he has got to engage in. The housing benefit bill is now �23

:35:37.:35:42.

billion a year! We know that he is against capping welfare, we know he

:35:42.:35:47.

is against restricting welfare to below the rate of increase in wages,

:35:47.:35:51.

we know all the things he is against. We are beginning to wonder

:35:51.:35:58.

what on earth he is for! He is spending more than �8 billion more

:35:58.:36:02.

than he planned on housing benefit because of his economic failure

:36:02.:36:08.

during this parliament! And I just say to him, the whole point of

:36:08.:36:11.

social housing is to protect families including the disabled. He

:36:11.:36:15.

does not sound like he will do anything for military families or

:36:15.:36:21.

the disabled, but let's talk about a group of people he Eva's -- he is

:36:21.:36:25.

moved by. I have a letter sent on his behalf by the Conservative

:36:25.:36:30.

Party treasurer about the so-called mansion tax and it says this: "we

:36:30.:36:34.

promised that no homes tax will be introduced during the course of

:36:34.:36:40.

this parliament. To keep the taxman out of your home, please help by

:36:40.:36:46.

donating today and supporting the no homes tax campaign". Can the

:36:46.:36:49.

Prime Minster explain what is it about the plight of those people

:36:49.:36:52.

that he finds so much more compelling than those hit by the

:36:53.:37:01.

bedroom tax? If he is in favour of a mansion tax, why didn't he

:37:01.:37:05.

introduce one in the 13 years in government? If he is so passionate

:37:05.:37:09.

about social housing, why didn't he build any when he was in

:37:09.:37:13.

government? If he thinks we are spending too much on housing

:37:13.:37:17.

benefit, why does see a POS each and every attempt we meant to get

:37:18.:37:22.

the Welfare Bill under control -- why does he opposed? The fact is,

:37:22.:37:26.

we are on this side of people who work hard and want to do the right

:37:27.:37:32.

thing! All he can ever do is spend more money! I do say to the Prime

:37:32.:37:38.

Minister, he should not get so het up. After all, he has got nearly

:37:38.:37:48.
:37:48.:37:49.

half his parliamentary party behind him! CHEERING. Mr Speaker, and the

:37:49.:37:56.

policy is not just unfair, it is not going to work either. In Hull,

:37:56.:38:02.

4700 people are going to be hit by the bedroom tax and there are just

:38:02.:38:06.

73 council property is for them to move to. Can the Prime Minister

:38:06.:38:11.

explain how exactly that is going to work? What this government is

:38:11.:38:16.

doing it... We are building more houses and controlling welfare

:38:16.:38:21.

bills but frankly the question is one he has to answer, too. If he is

:38:21.:38:25.

against the welfare cap and restrictions on increased welfare,

:38:25.:38:30.

if he opposes reform or disability benefits and each and every welfare

:38:30.:38:35.

change we make, how on earth is he going to get control of public

:38:35.:38:45.
:38:45.:38:45.

spending? A clue is in the title, a prime minister's Quincy -- Prime

:38:45.:38:49.

Minister's Questions. He is opposed to answer the questions. I thought

:38:49.:38:53.

he might say move to the private rented sector because there are not

:38:53.:39:03.

enough council properties, but this is where... But this is where... I

:39:03.:39:07.

would like him to say what those people should do! The policy is

:39:07.:39:11.

supposed to save money and this is where it is not going to work out.

:39:11.:39:17.

Another woman wrote to me and said, my rent for my family home...

:39:17.:39:24.

SHOUTING. I don't know why they are groaning, Mr Speaker. Thousands of

:39:24.:39:29.

their constituents will be hit by this! Another woman who wrote to me

:39:29.:39:36.

says "my rent for my family home is �65.68 whereas a one-bedroom in the

:39:36.:39:41.

private sector would cost over �100". How can it possibly makes

:39:41.:39:45.

sense to force people into a situation where they cost the state

:39:45.:39:51.

more, not less, by moving to the private rented sector? The his

:39:51.:39:59.

government is building more homes! If he supports that, perhaps he

:39:59.:40:02.

will tell us he supports the changes to the planning system,

:40:02.:40:06.

their new homes bonus, the things that will get more homes built and

:40:06.:40:10.

more people into jobs? We have 1 million extra people working in the

:40:10.:40:16.

private sector. That is what he has got to engage in. He has got

:40:16.:40:20.

absolutely no suggestions for how to get on top of well-fed, get the

:40:20.:40:25.

deficit down and get the economy moving -- get on top of welfare.

:40:25.:40:29.

Today we discovered he has not even got a clue about his own policy

:40:29.:40:33.

that he will introduce in April and his answers remind us what his

:40:33.:40:37.

party and the country are saying about him. The only people he

:40:37.:40:41.

listens to our small group of rich and powerful people at the top.

:40:41.:40:46.

That is why he has come up with a policy that is unfair. He is a

:40:46.:40:49.

prime minister who is weak, incompetent and totally out of

:40:49.:40:56.

touch! Totally pathetic scripted rubbish that we get used to every

:40:56.:41:01.

Wednesday. On the issue of who listens to whom, I have a very

:41:01.:41:07.

clear idea of who he listens to, because we heard it in the LSE

:41:07.:41:13.

lecture by Len McCluskey! Len McCluskey said this. He said, oh I

:41:13.:41:17.

met Ed Miliband and he asked me this question, this is the question

:41:17.:41:22.

he asked Len McCluskey. If you had three wishes, three things you

:41:22.:41:27.

would like us to do if we got back into power, what would you like

:41:27.:41:34.

them to be? Len McCluskey's answer: Trade union freedom, trade union

:41:34.:41:38.

freedom, trade union freedom. That is who he was to be fairy godmother

:41:38.:41:48.
:41:48.:41:51.

to! James Arbuthnot! At the time of the strategic defence and security

:41:51.:41:55.

review, two-and-a-half years ago, my right honourable friend is said

:41:55.:41:59.

my own strong view is that this structure will require a year on

:41:59.:42:03.

year real terms growth in the defence budget in the years beyond

:42:03.:42:10.

2015. Does that remain his view? As he heard any similar view expressed

:42:10.:42:16.

by the leader of the opposition? -- has he heard? It does remain my

:42:16.:42:20.

view but I am the only party leader who believes that in the use be on

:42:20.:42:25.

this parliament, we should be increasing defence spending -- in

:42:25.:42:29.

that the years beyond this parliament. But the good news is

:42:29.:42:33.

that it is actually agreed government policy that the defence

:42:33.:42:38.

equipment programme does need real terms increases after 2015, and

:42:38.:42:42.

that is very important for us to be able to plan the exceptional

:42:42.:42:46.

equipment programme that we have to give us some of the best-equipped

:42:46.:42:53.

armed forces anywhere in the world. Mr Speaker, the Budget Office

:42:53.:42:57.

responsibility, the Office for Budget Responsibility rather...

:42:57.:43:06.

Laughter... Tells us that the bankers will spend �500 million

:43:06.:43:11.

less in the bank has tax than the Prime Minister promised last year,

:43:11.:43:15.

yet in April he will inflict a �500 million cut in the poorest through

:43:15.:43:20.

the empty bedroom tax. How can he justify taking from the Paul and

:43:20.:43:28.

giving to the rich? Robin Hood! the poor. We think the bank levy is

:43:28.:43:31.

a better answer than a one-off bonus tax and the bank levy will be

:43:31.:43:35.

paid every year and so it will raise considerably more than a one-

:43:35.:43:39.

off bonus tax and what the Chancellor has done, when the bank

:43:39.:43:43.

levy has not come up to the figures that we require, is to increase the

:43:43.:43:50.

bank levy to make sure that it does. Can I remind the House of my

:43:50.:43:54.

declared interest? Tomorrow the Prime Minister will go to Brussels

:43:54.:44:00.

to rightly argue for a reduction in CAP funding. Will he ensure that

:44:00.:44:05.

any reduction applies to farmers right across Europe and not just in

:44:05.:44:09.

the UK? Will he make sure he does not fall into the trap fallen into

:44:09.:44:14.

by his predecessor in 2005, that when pressing for cuts ended up

:44:15.:44:19.

with a cut to the one part that everybody thinks is worth well,

:44:19.:44:23.

which is cut to the environment and the World Development Programme?

:44:23.:44:28.

right honourable friend speaks very knowledgeably about this. These

:44:28.:44:32.

will be extremely difficult negotiations and obviously our aim

:44:32.:44:37.

is what the significant cut I have spoken about, but the point about

:44:37.:44:41.

agriculture is important, particularly about the flexibility

:44:41.:44:44.

we required to make sure things like that rural development

:44:44.:44:49.

programme can continue to succeed. We know the Prime Minister has met

:44:49.:44:54.

lots of millionaires. But has he ever met anyone who will lose their

:44:54.:45:04.
:45:04.:45:13.

I have RAF Brize Norton in my constituency, so I have many forces

:45:13.:45:17.

families living there. But what they say to me is they want a

:45:17.:45:20.

government that is on the side of people who work hard and do the

:45:20.:45:23.

right thing. They support the fact that we are capping welfare, we are

:45:23.:45:26.

getting on top of immigration and clearing up the mess left by her

:45:26.:45:35.

party. Today is the United Nations International Date of zero-

:45:35.:45:37.

tolerance to female genital mutilation. Does the Prime Minister

:45:37.:45:40.

agree with me that Britain should be doing all it can to combat this

:45:40.:45:45.

dreadful abuse of the Human Rights of Women and girls, overseas and

:45:46.:45:52.

here in the UK? I completely agree. She is right to raise this. The

:45:52.:45:55.

government has made progress on this, chairing a forum looking

:45:55.:45:59.

right across the piece, including what we do overseas in terms of our

:45:59.:46:03.

aid programme and trying to prevent the horrific female genital

:46:03.:46:08.

mutilation, but also to make sure here that the Crown Prosecution

:46:08.:46:10.

Service and others are aware of the law on to everything they can to

:46:10.:46:17.

make sure it is properly prosecuted. Can the Prime Minister confirmed

:46:17.:46:24.

that Atos have declared that much of the third is fit for work? --

:46:24.:46:30.

Richard III. That is not a constituency case that has come my

:46:30.:46:35.

way. All I can say is I hope it's going to engender a great

:46:35.:46:39.

historical understanding of these events. I hope it will be a great

:46:39.:46:47.

boost to the great city of Leicester. This week's announcement

:46:47.:46:50.

that the work of the Stockton Insolvency Service is moving to

:46:50.:46:54.

Newcastle is the latest in a long series of similar announcements

:46:54.:46:57.

affecting the Tees Valley, including the closure of

:46:57.:47:01.

Middlesbrough's HMRC office by the previous government. Will the Prime

:47:01.:47:05.

Minister look to bring extra work to the HMRC office in Stockton and

:47:05.:47:11.

to moving another public-sector agency to the Tees Valley? I will

:47:11.:47:14.

look carefully at what my Honourable Friend says. Of course

:47:14.:47:17.

we want to make sure that public sector jobs are fairly distributed

:47:18.:47:21.

around the country. But we have to be frank, the real need for our

:47:21.:47:25.

economy is a rebalancing with a growth in the private sector to

:47:25.:47:28.

make up for the fact that public sector jobs have declined. As we

:47:28.:47:32.

look over the last two-and-a-half years, the million extra private

:47:32.:47:36.

sector jobs has more than offset the decline in public sector and

:47:36.:47:39.

employment. That is why we can see unemployment falling around the

:47:39.:47:46.

country. The Prime Minister may not be aware of an opinion poll by the

:47:46.:47:51.

BBC in Northern Ireland which shows that in all of the six counties of

:47:51.:47:53.

Northern Ireland there is now a clear majority in favour of the

:47:53.:47:56.

Union. Because people right across Northern Ireland recognise that

:47:56.:48:00.

when it comes to being part of this United Kingdom, we are better off

:48:00.:48:07.

together. I sometimes try and avoid opinion polls, so I haven't seen

:48:07.:48:10.

that one. It looks like one that will lift the spirits of almost

:48:10.:48:15.

everyone in this house, because we believe in the United Kingdom and

:48:15.:48:23.

we believe in Northern Ireland being part of that UK. Can the

:48:23.:48:28.

Prime Minister reassure this house that he still believes in

:48:28.:48:32.

increasing spending on the NHS, making sure that those funds go to

:48:32.:48:36.

the frontline doctors and nurses at the frontline of our service?

:48:37.:48:41.

give him that assurance. That is why we are committed to increase

:48:41.:48:44.

NHS spending during this Parliament for each year in this Parliament.

:48:44.:48:48.

We are on course to do that. But we do want to make sure the money goes

:48:48.:48:52.

to the front line. That is why the number of managers and

:48:52.:48:55.

administrators in our NHS is right down and the number of clinical

:48:55.:49:02.

staff is right up. Was it the double-dip recession, the slowdown

:49:02.:49:05.

in deficit reduction or the projected 60 % increase in national

:49:05.:49:08.

debt over the next five years that led the Prime Minister to state

:49:08.:49:13.

that he had full confidence in his Chancellor? Why have confidence in

:49:13.:49:18.

the Chancellor, the deficit is down 25 %. Deraa 1 million extra private

:49:18.:49:26.

sector jobs. We are cleaning up the mess made by the party opposite.

:49:26.:49:30.

Dover, plans are moving forward for the building of a new hospital,

:49:30.:49:34.

after a decade in which local hospital services were decimated.

:49:34.:49:39.

Can I, too, say the need to increase investment in the NHS and

:49:39.:49:44.

ensure real focus on the frontline. On this day particularly, when we

:49:44.:49:48.

are back to discuss what happened at the Staffordshire Hospital, it

:49:48.:49:51.

is a day to talk about the importance of care in our health

:49:51.:49:54.

service, the importance of the frontline and the have porters,

:49:54.:49:58.

above all, of really looking at quality and listening to patients.

:49:58.:50:01.

Under this government, of course resources have been constrained,

:50:01.:50:05.

for all the reasons we have discussed across the despatch box

:50:05.:50:08.

as week in week out, but we did make a conscious choice to put more

:50:08.:50:11.

money into the NHS and to get back to the front five. That is why

:50:12.:50:18.

there are 5900 or doctors and there are 19,000 fewer non-clinical staff.

:50:18.:50:21.

The money is going into the frontline of the bloggers needs to

:50:21.:50:29.

be on the quality and patients. -- but the focus needs to be on the

:50:29.:50:33.

quality and the patience. Is the Prime Minister concerned about

:50:33.:50:37.

suicide levels in our society? Will he assure me and his party of the

:50:37.:50:40.

Government's support to raise awareness of the issues and work

:50:40.:50:44.

with devolved administrations to tackle the scourge across all of

:50:44.:50:51.

the UK and Northern Ireland. And I commend the Honourable Gentleman

:50:51.:50:53.

and Democratic Unionists for bringing this issue forward. The

:50:53.:50:58.

whole issue of suicide is one we often don't talk enough about in

:50:58.:51:02.

our society. I think it is absolutely right to do so. It is a

:51:02.:51:05.

shocking statistic that in Northern Ireland, almost six times the

:51:05.:51:09.

number of people killed in road traffic accidents of lost to

:51:09.:51:13.

suicide. Raising awareness of this and making sure there's a proper

:51:13.:51:16.

Cross Government's strategy to help people deal with this is vitally

:51:16.:51:21.

important. As a result of the financial mess the Labour

:51:21.:51:31.
:51:31.:51:38.

government left the country in... Local councils... Order, a house

:51:38.:51:44.

must come down. I intend to get through the questions. Local

:51:44.:51:49.

councils have raised as tough a budget settlement as most other

:51:49.:51:53.

government departments. Does the Prime Minister share my dismay that

:51:53.:51:58.

Manchester City Council is choosing to close libraries, leisure centres

:51:58.:52:02.

and the Mersey Valley warden service, while at the same time was

:52:02.:52:06.

happy to spend hundreds of thousands of pounds on an Alicia

:52:06.:52:12.

Keys concert, and leave 100 million reserve sitting in the bank?

:52:12.:52:16.

makes an important point. Of course councils face difficult spending

:52:16.:52:20.

decisions. But if you look at the level of spending on the level of

:52:20.:52:22.

grant they are still getting in many cases, it is equivalent to

:52:22.:52:26.

what we were getting under the last government. Obviously the economy

:52:26.:52:30.

has declined since then and so we have to cut our cloth accordingly.

:52:30.:52:34.

But they should be held accountable for the decisions they make. In

:52:34.:52:38.

some cases they can be little doubt that councils are making high-

:52:38.:52:41.

profile cuts to try and make a point, and they shouldn't be

:52:41.:52:44.

damaging people's livelihoods, they should be doing the best for their

:52:44.:52:51.

cities. Would the Prime Minister confirm for the record that thanks

:52:51.:52:54.

to his cuts to the childcare element of the working tax credit,

:52:54.:53:02.

families with children are losing up to �1,500 a year? What has

:53:02.:53:06.

happened and have a child tax credit is we increased it by �390

:53:06.:53:10.

in the early budgets of this government. If you look at the

:53:10.:53:16.

benefits for Ade two parent, two child family, they will be getting

:53:16.:53:21.

over �1,500 extra this year, that's �30 a week, compared to 2010. The

:53:21.:53:28.

Honourable Gentleman is wrong. the Prime Minister paid tribute to

:53:28.:53:33.

the new President of Somalia, whose government has made remarkable

:53:33.:53:37.

progress over the last few months? Although there is still a long way

:53:37.:53:41.

to go, would he agree with me that the Somali and peace process is a

:53:41.:53:44.

really good example of Britain combining aid and development with

:53:45.:53:47.

energising the neighbouring states and the diplomatic community

:53:47.:53:53.

worldwide? Can he tell the House, what role does he envisage here in

:53:53.:53:59.

the UK? He makes an important point. Anyone wondering the relevance of

:53:59.:54:02.

Somalia to hear in the UK, we have to remember that this country has

:54:02.:54:07.

been the author of huge amounts of problems, from terrorism, piracy,

:54:07.:54:12.

mass migration. Even to the most hardy sceptic of our aid budget, I

:54:12.:54:16.

would say this is a really good case where engagement, aid and

:54:16.:54:20.

diplomacy can help that country to mend itself for the future. In

:54:20.:54:23.

terms of the diaspora, I hope they will give full support to the new

:54:23.:54:27.

President, who is demonstrating huge grip in his country at mending

:54:27.:54:31.

that pop -- mending the problems that have devilled that country for

:54:31.:54:35.

so long. The Prime Minister's Korea probably peaked when he was a

:54:35.:54:41.

backbench member of the Home Affairs Committee in 2005. Can he

:54:41.:54:46.

revived his progressive courage at that time when he looks at the

:54:46.:54:51.

report from the all-party group about the awful problems of new

:54:51.:54:59.

drugs that on the market but are not controlled in any way? I am

:54:59.:55:03.

grateful for his view of my career trajectory. I won't ask him about

:55:03.:55:11.

his. I think that the Home Affairs Select Committee that I work on, I

:55:11.:55:15.

did learn some important lessons from that. The priority we should

:55:15.:55:19.

give in terms of tackling drugs, to education and treatment. Those of

:55:19.:55:23.

the absolutely key arms of what needs to be done. Then I don't

:55:23.:55:27.

believe we should be legalising any drugs that are currently illegal.

:55:27.:55:33.

In terms of current legal highs and problems relating to the last

:55:33.:55:38.

question about things like CAT, we need to look at the evidence of

:55:38.:55:44.

what will work best. In Solihull, over 80,000 people have benefited

:55:44.:55:49.

from our policy of raising the threshold at which people start to

:55:49.:55:57.

pay tax. This morning, the IFS confirmed that this policy is right,

:55:57.:56:02.

and those who have the broadest shoulders are bearing the greatest

:56:02.:56:09.

burden of tax. In the light of this, will the government commit to

:56:09.:56:15.

raising the threshold at which people pay tax to �10,000 in his

:56:15.:56:23.

Budget? She is absolutely right. Raising the threshold before which

:56:23.:56:27.

people start to pay tax has been absolutely right. What it has meant

:56:27.:56:32.

is someone on minimum-wage, working full-time, their tax bill has been

:56:32.:56:37.

cut by half. That is a huge change to help people who work hard, who

:56:37.:56:40.

want to do the right thing. It is this government that is rewarding

:56:40.:56:44.

them. She mentions the Institute for Fiscal Studies Green Budget out

:56:44.:56:48.

this morning, I haven't had that much time to study it. But on the

:56:48.:56:52.

issue of fairness it says this. The whole set of tax and benefit

:56:53.:57:01.

changes introduced between the start of 2010 and 2015-2016 hit the

:57:01.:57:07.

richest hardest -- households hardest. The leader of the

:57:07.:57:11.

opposition asked the Prime Minister a simple question to which he gave

:57:11.:57:15.

no adequate reply. I will ask it again. What is the difference

:57:15.:57:19.

between a bedroom tax on the disabled and a mansion tax on

:57:19.:57:25.

millionaires? I don't accept that the bedroom tax is a tax. It is an

:57:25.:57:31.

issue about benefit. As a country, we are spending �23 billion on

:57:31.:57:35.

housing benefit. We have to have a debate in this country. The last

:57:35.:57:38.

government said we had to have a debate in this country about

:57:38.:57:42.

getting on top of housing benefit. Indeed, it featured in the Labour

:57:42.:57:46.

manifesto. The manifesto on which they were all elected. But since

:57:46.:57:50.

they have moved to the opposition benches, they have given up all

:57:50.:57:57.

pretence at responsibility at all. Can the Prime Minister reconcile

:57:57.:58:01.

his recent comments on the need to accelerate major infrastructure

:58:01.:58:04.

projects that the Government's decision to postpone forming a

:58:04.:58:07.

policy on airports until after the next general election, and what he

:58:07.:58:15.

reconsider and bring back review for what? -- bring that review

:58:15.:58:19.

forward? It looks at what how would Davies has said in terms of his

:58:19.:58:22.

review, he has said this is a very complicated issue that merits

:58:22.:58:27.

proper examination that will take time. We need, as a country, to

:58:27.:58:31.

make major decisions about airport and airport capacity. We should be

:58:31.:58:34.

aiming as far as is possible to try and make these decisions on a

:58:34.:58:43.

cross-party basis. I hope that the report will help that to happen.

:58:43.:58:49.

Last night's vote on same-sex marriage is widely regarded as a

:58:49.:58:53.

historic vote. Does the Prime Minister agree with me that it is a

:58:53.:58:58.

tribute to all of the people down the decades, in all parties and in

:58:58.:59:04.

no party, behind the scenes and in public, who have worked for such

:59:04.:59:07.

equality? And does the Prime Minister agree with me that the

:59:08.:59:12.

vote proves that the Ark of history Ben's slowly, but it bends towards

:59:12.:59:20.

justice? I agree. I think last night's vote will be seen not just

:59:20.:59:24.

as making sure there is a proper element of equality, but also

:59:24.:59:29.

helping us to build a stronger and fairer society. I thought many of

:59:29.:59:33.

the speeches made last night were very moving, very emotional and I

:59:33.:59:36.

would pay tribute to all of those people who actually made this case,

:59:36.:59:40.

some of them for many years, saying that they want their love to count

:59:40.:59:44.

the same way that a man and woman's love for each of accounts. That is

:59:44.:59:48.

what we have opened now in this country. That is why I'm proud that

:59:48.:59:54.

its this government that has brought it forward. For years,

:59:54.:59:59.

young people in cool and break have enjoyed some of the lowest per

:59:59.:00:03.

pupil school funding in the country. This has become critical for Caddis

:00:03.:00:07.

such as the East Riding of Yorkshire. Can the Prime Minister

:00:07.:00:10.

look closely at the East Riding of Yorkshire and the lower level of

:00:10.:00:15.

per pupil funding they receive? will look closely at what he has

:00:15.:00:20.

said. I would make a couple of points. Within the education budget

:00:20.:00:25.

we have prioritised the per pupil funding, so there hasn't been a

:00:25.:00:29.

reduction in that. I think it's very important schools can see

:00:29.:00:32.

forward to future years, the sorts of budgets they will have given the

:00:32.:00:36.

role of children coming to the school. The second thing we've done

:00:36.:00:40.

is to the Academy programme. To encourage the devolution of more of

:00:40.:00:43.

the school budget to the school's director. I still think there's

:00:43.:00:53.
:00:53.:00:58.

Why was a motion to strengthen patient and public involvement in

:00:58.:01:02.

the new patient watchdog rejected by the government in the other

:01:02.:01:06.

place last night? We do want to see patients have a stronger voice in

:01:06.:01:12.

the NHS and we are about to debate in some length about how that is

:01:12.:01:16.

down. One of the most important ways will be making sure that the

:01:16.:01:21.

mandate of the NHS commissioning board has at its heart quality

:01:21.:01:26.

nursing and the voice of patience. We also need to look at how health

:01:26.:01:30.

watch is going to work to make sure it is truly independent and we have

:01:30.:01:34.

to understand that some of the ways we have tried to empower patients

:01:34.:01:39.

in the past always with good intentions, from governments of

:01:39.:01:44.

both sides, we have to listen to what Francis says when he says it

:01:44.:01:51.

just has not worked. With more women in work then ever before,

:01:51.:01:56.

with more men in work than ever before, with more jobs created in

:01:56.:02:01.

the private sector, with the Prime Minister not agree with me that the

:02:01.:02:05.

Chancellor's plan is not only working but the economy is

:02:05.:02:11.

beginning to turn the corner! think we should listen very

:02:11.:02:15.

carefully to what the Governor of the Bank of England said, who said

:02:15.:02:19.

of course growth is slower than we would like that the economy is

:02:19.:02:23.

moving in the right direction, the rebalancing is taking place, the

:02:23.:02:28.

things that need to be fixed in our economy in terms of bank lending

:02:28.:02:32.

and housing supply, they are being fixed. That is what the

:02:32.:02:37.

Government's is determined to do. One of my constituents has learned

:02:38.:02:43.

that when the bedroom tax is introduced, she will have �24 a

:02:43.:02:49.

week to live on. She is so anxious about how she is going to manage.

:02:49.:02:55.

She is having cognitive behaviour therapy. But her anxiety is totally

:02:55.:02:58.

understandable. Does the Prime Minister agree with me that those

:02:58.:03:03.

who should be receiving a cognitive behaviour therapy are the ones,

:03:03.:03:10.

namely his ministers, who think she could live on �24 a week! The party

:03:10.:03:14.

opposite does have to address the fact that for 13 years in

:03:14.:03:18.

government, they were perfectly content to have a housing benefit

:03:18.:03:22.

system for people who lived in private sector housing where there

:03:22.:03:26.

was no extra benefit for empty rooms and I cannot understand why

:03:27.:03:31.

they can't see it is unfair to have one all four people with the

:03:31.:03:35.

benefit of social housing and another rule for people in private

:03:35.:03:41.

housing. Week after week, Labour MPs come here opposing benefit

:03:41.:03:45.

changes and everything we do to deal with the mess they left and to

:03:45.:03:49.

fill in the deficit they left us and until they can learn they have

:03:49.:03:53.

to take some of the responsibility for the mess they left, no one will

:03:53.:04:00.

ever listen to them. Prime Minister's questions ends but

:04:00.:04:04.

we will stay here to hear the beginning of the Prime Minister's

:04:04.:04:11.

statement on the mid- Staffordshire Trust.

:04:11.:04:18.

Mr Speaker, I have a deep affection for our National Health Service. I

:04:18.:04:22.

will never forget all of the things that doctors and nurses have done

:04:22.:04:29.

for my family in times of real difficulty. I love my our NHS. I

:04:29.:04:34.

think it is a fantastic institution. It says a huge amount about our

:04:34.:04:39.

country. I always want to think the best of it and I have huge

:04:39.:04:42.

admiration for the doctors, nurses and health workers would dedicate

:04:42.:04:48.

their lives to caring for our loved ones, but we do them and the whole

:04:48.:04:51.

reputation of the NHS a grave disservice if we failed to speak

:04:51.:04:57.

out when things go wrong. What happened at the Mid-Staffordshire

:04:57.:05:02.

NHS Foundation Trust between 2005 and 2009 was not just roll, it was

:05:03.:05:09.

truly dreadful. -- not just roll. Hundreds of people suffered

:05:09.:05:14.

appalling neglect and mistreatment. Some patients was so desperate for

:05:14.:05:18.

water they were drinking from flower vases. Many were given the

:05:18.:05:25.

wrong medication and left to wet themselves and lie in their own

:05:25.:05:30.

urine for days. Relatives were ignored was met approached when

:05:30.:05:33.

they pointed out the most basic things that could have saved their

:05:33.:05:36.

loved ones from pain and death. We can only begin to imagine the

:05:37.:05:41.

suffering endured by those whose trust in the health service was

:05:41.:05:45.

betrayed at their most vulnerable moment. That is why I believe it is

:05:45.:05:51.

right to make the statement today. There was a Healthcare Commission

:05:51.:05:56.

investigation into 1009, the first independent inquiry in 2010, and

:05:56.:06:02.

long before that the testimony of bereaved relatives, like Cure The

:06:02.:06:08.

NHS and Julie Bailey, who laid bare the most unspeakable catalogue of

:06:08.:06:12.

failures at the Trust. Even after these reports, some really

:06:12.:06:16.

important questions remain unanswered. How were these

:06:16.:06:20.

appalling events allowed to happen? How were they allowed to continue

:06:20.:06:25.

for so long? Why were so many bereaved families and whistle-blow

:06:25.:06:30.

was ignored for so long? Could something like this happen again?

:06:30.:06:34.

Basic questions about wider failures in the system, not just at

:06:34.:06:39.

the hospital but right across the NHS, including its regulators and

:06:39.:06:43.

the Department of Health. That is why the families called for this

:06:43.:06:48.

public inquiry and that is why this government granted one and I am

:06:48.:06:52.

sure the House will want to join me in expressing thanks to Robert

:06:52.:06:57.

Francis and his team over the last three years. The inquiry finds that

:06:57.:07:01.

the appalling suffering at Stafford Hospital was primarily caught by a

:07:01.:07:06.

serious failure on behalf of the trust board, which failed to listen

:07:06.:07:10.

to patients and staff and failed to tackle an insidious negative

:07:10.:07:14.

culture involving a tolerance of poor standards and a disengagement

:07:14.:07:19.

from managerial and leadership responsibilities. But the inquiry

:07:19.:07:23.

finds that the failure went far wider. The Primary Care Trust

:07:23.:07:27.

assumed others were taking responsibility and made little

:07:27.:07:31.

attempt to collect proper information on the quality of care.

:07:31.:07:36.

The Strategic Health Authority was "to remote from the patients it was

:07:36.:07:40.

there to serve and failed to be sufficiently sensitive to signs

:07:40.:07:45.

that patients may be at risk". Regulators, including the then

:07:45.:07:50.

Healthcare Commission, failed to protect patients. Too many doctors

:07:50.:07:54.

kept their heads down instead of speaking out when things went wrong.

:07:55.:08:00.

The Royal College of Nursing was ineffective, both as a professional

:08:00.:08:03.

organisation and as a trade union. The Department of Health was too

:08:03.:08:08.

remote from the reality of the services that they oversee. The way

:08:08.:08:11.

Robert Francis chronicles the evidence of systemic failure means

:08:11.:08:15.

we cannot say with confidence that failings of care are limited to one

:08:15.:08:19.

hospital but let us also be clear about what the report does not say.

:08:19.:08:25.

France's does not claim any specific policy. -- France's. He

:08:25.:08:29.

does not blame the last Secretary of State for Health. He says we

:08:30.:08:33.

should not seek scapegoats. Looking beyond the specific failures that

:08:33.:08:38.

he does clearly catalogue, I believe you can identify three

:08:38.:08:44.

fundamental problems with the culture of our NHS. First, a focus

:08:44.:08:48.

on finance and figures at the expense of patient care. He says

:08:48.:08:53.

that explicitly. This was underpinned by a preoccupation with

:08:53.:08:58.

Anne Owers set of top-down targets, as you to the exclusion of patient

:08:58.:09:05.

safety -- with a set of Top Gun targets. Second, there was an

:09:05.:09:08.

attitude that patient care was always someone else's problem. In

:09:08.:09:14.

short, no one was accountable. He speaks about defensiveness and

:09:14.:09:19.

complacency. Instead of facing up to date to which should have

:09:19.:09:24.

employed a real cause for concern, Robert Francis finds that there is

:09:24.:09:27.

a culture of only explaining the positives rather than any critical

:09:27.:09:33.

analysis. Put simply, Mr Speaker... The Prime Minister making a

:09:33.:09:36.

statement on the Francis Report into the mid- Staffordshire

:09:36.:09:40.

Hospital Trust. Those who wish to see that in full can switch to be

:09:40.:09:44.

busy parliament and probably BBC News will run more of it and we

:09:44.:09:50.

have as well. He went through a catalogue of failures,

:09:50.:09:57.

institutional failures, that the inquiry identifiers. Above all it

:09:57.:10:04.

blames the Trust bought, for tolerance of poor standards. The

:10:04.:10:09.

Primary Care Trust and the strategic health authority, Monitor

:10:09.:10:15.

and other regulators, seeming to accept sub-standard care. The Royal

:10:15.:10:20.

College of Nursing is, described as ineffective. Add that together and

:10:20.:10:24.

you have what the Prime Minister and the report calls "systemic

:10:24.:10:30.

failure". I think David Cameron got to the essence of it when he said

:10:30.:10:35.

no one felt accountable. There was blurred lines of accountability and

:10:35.:10:39.

that one body thought another body was responsible and they thought

:10:39.:10:44.

somebody else was responsible. This has been a problem with the NHS all

:10:44.:10:49.

the way through. It was a problem to some extent with the Blairite

:10:49.:10:54.

reforms introduced by the previous Labour government in terms of, here

:10:54.:10:59.

is and national funded body but should politicians be responsible

:10:59.:11:05.

for the delivery of it? Not fully answered. That is not fully

:11:05.:11:10.

answered by the Andrew Lansley reforms. This is the problem. In

:11:10.:11:16.

PMQs, David Cameron says one of the other themes was we had been trying

:11:16.:11:19.

to empower patients and the mechanisms of empowerment simply

:11:19.:11:23.

have not worked. How you answer these things are massively

:11:23.:11:28.

complicated. But the problem is clear. It is a running theme, with

:11:28.:11:32.

the BBC, the police and all the other reason things. Who is

:11:32.:11:36.

accountable to whom? This is not clear enough in his publicly-funded

:11:36.:11:43.

services. It is a big, big political issue. Both this

:11:43.:11:47.

government and the last government have tried to empower patients but

:11:47.:11:53.

every time governments do, the Royal Colleges, the NHS elite,

:11:54.:11:58.

people with a vested interest, the NHS trade unions, they down every

:11:58.:12:03.

change as a threat? They claim any kind of private and market

:12:03.:12:09.

mechanism is the slippery road to a US-style private health system.

:12:09.:12:17.

These very elites, as this report has just adumbrated, they are at

:12:17.:12:24.

the centre of this. They failed. Patients in any event seemed to

:12:24.:12:28.

deferred to experts, especially if you are not articulate and July

:12:29.:12:32.

confidence. We had patients who were articulate and two were still

:12:33.:12:38.

ignored. But even staff felt there was a culture where they could not

:12:38.:12:43.

report for fear of reprisals. We have brought in legislation to

:12:43.:12:48.

protect whistleblowers but there is still a culture, staff lack the

:12:48.:12:52.

confidence to bring to management's attention some serious concerns

:12:52.:12:56.

they had. Will there be a change in public attitude as a result of

:12:56.:13:02.

this? When we stop fooling ourselves that the NHS is the envy

:13:02.:13:06.

of the world? A claim for which I have seen not a scintilla of

:13:06.:13:11.

evidence. Maybe the envy of the Third World. Not of the rest of

:13:11.:13:16.

Europe. Will we start to change our attitude, which my parents had, we

:13:16.:13:22.

are lucky to have it? And will we start demanding a lot more for the

:13:22.:13:27.

�2 billion a week we spent on it? week ought to do that but I do

:13:27.:13:31.

think you should be critical of the whole of the NHS. There are some

:13:31.:13:35.

excellent practices and parts of the NHS and if you are very

:13:35.:13:40.

seriously ill in this country you are with a better chance...

:13:40.:13:45.

Depending on hospital you get into. There were too many of these bodies,

:13:45.:13:49.

we can both agree on that politically, and nobody was in

:13:49.:13:54.

overall charge and the people felt it was going wrong were not able to

:13:54.:13:58.

do anything. We can try to give patients more information but the

:13:58.:14:02.

best answer to this is to empower the clinicians who are closest to

:14:02.:14:07.

the patients, the GPs, and from April onwards they will be able to

:14:07.:14:11.

say, we are no longer sending patients to that hospital. We are

:14:11.:14:16.

not happy with the cleanliness. We will send them to another hospital.

:14:16.:14:21.

That is fine, Michael. There is regulation for doctors and nurses,

:14:21.:14:27.

but what about the manager's? Who regulates them? Who is responsible

:14:27.:14:32.

for bad managers being sacked? We had a chief executive who is now

:14:32.:14:38.

running another energy as charity. That is the real issue. It is

:14:38.:14:41.

saying GPs hold the power and the commissioning staff and the

:14:41.:14:46.

budgets... There were too many managers. So systemic failure is

:14:46.:14:56.
:14:56.:15:00.

coming from the management in this They might not have known about

:15:00.:15:03.

what was going on in Stafford hospital. They might have continued

:15:04.:15:07.

sending patients there, which raises another huge issue. It's

:15:07.:15:13.

about information as to what's going on inside these institutions.

:15:13.:15:17.

Mike Farrow said earlier that this is absolutely key. The whole thing

:15:17.:15:21.

needs to be opened up. Whenever a light is shone on public funded

:15:21.:15:25.

institutions, you then get upgrades to urgency, we've got to reform

:15:25.:15:30.

this. And as to this broad political question. Where do we go

:15:30.:15:36.

from here in terms of major reform? It's my sense that Labour has no

:15:36.:15:40.

grand plan in the making for reforms of the NHS, they tried that

:15:40.:15:43.

when they were in power. The Conservatives, we saw what happened

:15:43.:15:47.

to them when they tried to reform it, they are not going to go there

:15:47.:15:53.

again either. I think there will be consensus that further change is

:15:53.:15:56.

required. There needs to be a debate on what form the change

:15:56.:16:00.

takes place in. The debate in Britain has been simplistic. Reform

:16:00.:16:04.

bursars and to reform, as if there's only one set of reforms

:16:04.:16:09.

that are acceptable or Status Quo. We've got to get beyond that, to

:16:09.:16:12.

have a much subtler and more intelligent play. There's a chance

:16:12.:16:22.
:16:22.:16:23.

of that happening in the light of these revelations. A sombre mood in

:16:23.:16:26.

the chamber for the Prime Minister's statement on the

:16:26.:16:28.

hospital and the report to date. It's not always like that. If you

:16:29.:16:31.

were watching the programme on Monday, you will have seen as

:16:31.:16:35.

talking about how loud it gets in the chamber during Prime Minister's

:16:35.:16:39.

Questions. The Speaker, John Bercow, has been complaining that its

:16:39.:16:44.

louder than a deep purple rock concert from the 1970s. But how

:16:44.:16:48.

loud is loud? If I start talking to you like this in a little whisper,

:16:48.:16:52.

then I'll be speaking at a level of 30 decibels. If I revert to my

:16:53.:16:59.

normal, loud, speech pattern, the decibel levels are around 60. But

:16:59.:17:03.

maybe it's a bit more. Prolonged exposure to noise levels above 85

:17:03.:17:10.

can cause damage to your hearing. If you are Maria Sharapova or...

:17:10.:17:15.

The undisputed queen of tennis grunts, she hits the scale at a

:17:15.:17:21.

massive 101 decibels. Watch out if you are the ballboy! A rock concert

:17:21.:17:26.

can be around 120 decibels. Two of the MPs they were talking to about

:17:26.:17:29.

noise in the chamber kindly agreed to take their mobile phones and

:17:29.:17:33.

iPad into the chamber, having downloaded and app that reads the

:17:33.:17:43.
:17:43.:17:48.

noise levels. The Conservative... How high to the reading go? It was

:17:48.:17:54.

quite disappointing. I got to about 94. But it was a very sombre, very

:17:55.:18:00.

subdued session. I don't think I've ever been to such a well-behaved

:18:00.:18:10.
:18:10.:18:12.

Prime Minister's Questions. Alan Cairns, did yours read any higher?

:18:12.:18:18.

I got 98 at the back. I think that came from the laughter on the

:18:18.:18:22.

question on Richard III. Because of the statement we were expecting and

:18:22.:18:26.

the seriousness of that, everyone was quite subdued. That was also

:18:26.:18:29.

after last night's vote, where there was some tension. People were

:18:29.:18:39.
:18:39.:18:40.

may be using it as a time to take stock. It's funny that you think

:18:40.:18:44.

that is quiet. I suppose half an hour once a week isn't going to do

:18:44.:18:54.

any damage, but 90 and 98 is still very loud. I stand by everything I

:18:54.:18:58.

said on Monday about it being awful, really bolstered on the whole it is

:18:58.:19:02.

extremely Walkers. It is just a Yelling match. It is not very

:19:02.:19:07.

attractive. I'm going to carry on taking this wonderful gadget in

:19:07.:19:11.

week after week, give it another couple of weeks and we will be

:19:11.:19:21.
:19:21.:19:23.

massively up. If it reaches 120 decibels, you are in deep purple

:19:23.:19:33.
:19:33.:19:34.

concerts territory. I'm sure that last week it did. Last week was

:19:34.:19:37.

probably the loudest I've experienced. I asked a question in

:19:37.:19:40.

it last week, and it is the most intimidating environment, where

:19:40.:19:44.

people are shouting as you are trying to concentrate and hold your

:19:44.:19:47.

own in terms of projecting your voice and remembering your words at

:19:47.:19:57.
:19:57.:20:01.

the same time. How can the grunting tennis player be as loud as a rock

:20:01.:20:11.
:20:11.:20:19.

concert? It is the pitch. It's the pitch at which she grants. It is

:20:19.:20:27.

incredibly noisy. Below the gangway on both sides is quite loud. It can

:20:27.:20:32.

be incredibly noisy. If you are asking questions, you literally

:20:32.:20:42.
:20:42.:20:43.

can't hear the questions are asked. I'm not so sure the opposite is a

:20:43.:20:53.
:20:53.:20:58.

good idea, it completely sterile Have you ever been told off by the

:20:58.:21:03.

Speaker for speaking out loud? By both of them! A miscarriage of

:21:03.:21:07.

justice. Millions of young people are priced

:21:07.:21:11.

out of buying a home on their own. Millions more are hoping house

:21:11.:21:16.

prices remain high to prevent a slide into negative equity. Ross

:21:16.:21:21.

Clark has been looking at this for his new book, in which he

:21:21.:21:31.
:21:31.:21:43.

emphasises how unprecedented the Houses like these in Mitcham, south

:21:43.:21:46.

London, enabled a million families to become homeowners in the great

:21:46.:21:51.

building boom between the two walls. When these houses behind me were

:21:51.:21:58.

built in the early 1930s, they cost between �315.530 pounds, which in

:21:58.:22:04.

today's money is between �18,000.30 �1,000. Yet one of these houses

:22:04.:22:12.

just down the road is now for sale for �335,000. And that is after a

:22:12.:22:15.

suppose it crash. House price inflation has made a fortune for

:22:15.:22:19.

some people but but others it has frustrated their dream of ever

:22:19.:22:23.

owning a home. Yet none of the political parties has any credible

:22:23.:22:26.

scheme for helping frustrated would-be homeowners. The

:22:26.:22:29.

coalition's says it wants to increase housebuilding by listening

:22:29.:22:33.

the planning system. We certainly need more houses, but that is only

:22:33.:22:43.
:22:43.:22:50.

This newly built two-bedroomed home is the equivalent of the 1930s

:22:50.:22:53.

homes just down the road. But the difference is that this property is

:22:53.:22:58.

quite likely to be bought as a speculative investment. We are

:22:59.:23:02.

returning to a Victorian social structure in which a large class of

:23:02.:23:10.

tenant's rent their homes from a small class of landlords. One

:23:10.:23:13.

solution could be to place restrictive covenants on most new

:23:13.:23:17.

homes, to say they could only ever be used as owner-occupied

:23:17.:23:20.

properties. People are actually going to live in them, they could

:23:20.:23:30.
:23:30.:23:34.

not be bought by speculators. Also, we could reduce the cost of

:23:34.:23:38.

building new homes by doing as post-war government did with the

:23:38.:23:42.

new towns. Compulsory purchase and development land at his land use

:23:42.:23:45.

valley, and in its planning permission and then selling it on

:23:45.:23:48.

to housebuilders at much lower prices than they currently have to

:23:48.:23:51.

pay for their land, taking just enough profit to pay for local

:23:51.:23:59.

infrastructure. Houses may never be as cheap again as they were 80

:23:59.:24:02.

years ago, but there's no reason why they cannot be a price which

:24:02.:24:06.

allows young people to do as they're great grandparents did,

:24:06.:24:10.

take the big step from tenants to homeowners.

:24:10.:24:16.

Ross Clark is with us now. Michael Fallon, home ownership has fallen

:24:17.:24:20.

for the first time since records began 60 years ago, Britain has the

:24:20.:24:23.

lowest rate of new home construction in almost a century -

:24:23.:24:27.

what are you doing about it? How many more homes have been built

:24:27.:24:35.

since 2010? Over 113,000 in the first year. We have plans for

:24:35.:24:38.

175,000 affordable homes. We've simplified the planning system, we

:24:38.:24:41.

are unlocking some of the rules that have prevented affordable

:24:41.:24:45.

housing being built, because these agreements were signed at the top

:24:45.:24:49.

of the boom when prices were much higher. We've got a Bill going

:24:49.:24:53.

through Parliament to unlock that now. You will see more houses being

:24:53.:24:57.

built. That is one side of it. are still not affordable for very

:24:57.:25:01.

many young people who cannot get the deposit to put down on buying a

:25:01.:25:05.

home. Do you agree with the assessment that there is now this

:25:05.:25:08.

generational gap between people who own their own homes and those who

:25:08.:25:12.

will never be able to own their own homes and will be tenants forever?

:25:12.:25:15.

That's too pessimistic. Some of the money we've made available through

:25:16.:25:18.

the funding for lending scheme is not getting through into the

:25:18.:25:22.

mortgage markets. I think you will find a better supply of mortgage

:25:22.:25:27.

finance coming through. I accept they've got to raise a higher

:25:27.:25:33.

deposit and perhaps our generation had to raise. Self-certified

:25:33.:25:37.

mortgages, some of those rules have been tightened. What do you do

:25:37.:25:40.

about house prices? Which government in its right mind is

:25:40.:25:44.

going to do anything to either freeze house prices where they are

:25:44.:25:48.

or bring them down? You can't control house prices. There are

:25:48.:25:52.

things you can do. The can increase supply. Michael, I hope you are

:25:52.:25:56.

right in relation to the figures to give but, frankly speaking, the

:25:56.:26:00.

experience of my constituency is very different than yours. I knock

:26:00.:26:04.

on doors where three generations are living in the same households,

:26:04.:26:09.

no prospect of getting up to �50,000 deposit required to buy a

:26:09.:26:14.

property in London. Our obsession with owner-occupiers is detracting

:26:14.:26:17.

from the fact there aren't enough properties to rent at affordable

:26:17.:26:21.

rates. Interest rates are low, so if you can't afford a mortgage with

:26:21.:26:26.

these interest rates and you can't afford to rent because of high

:26:26.:26:28.

rates of rent from private landlords, what are you going to

:26:28.:26:32.

do? Do you have any confidence that the situation will change

:26:32.:26:37.

dramatically? A Meikle talks about affordable housing. Affordable

:26:37.:26:42.

housing is a word which really refers to housing either for rent,

:26:42.:26:45.

for shared ownership, it's usually shared ownership property which

:26:45.:26:51.

gets the name affordable housing. I don't think people really want to

:26:51.:26:53.

buy half a house. When they set out on their career ladder, they want

:26:53.:27:01.

to buy a whole house not half a house. The point was made, does

:27:01.:27:04.

home-ownership matter? We've got this obsession with home ownership.

:27:04.:27:09.

This is an argument with turns to the advanced by people who already

:27:09.:27:12.

own their own property. It's not an argument I've ever heard for made

:27:12.:27:17.

by people in their 20s, trying to get on the housing ladder. These

:27:17.:27:21.

aren't benefit claimants, these are people in good jobs, well-paid jobs

:27:21.:27:24.

who 30 years ago would have had absolutely no problem in buying a

:27:24.:27:30.

property at all. One thing about buy-to-let, because you raised this

:27:30.:27:35.

issue about ending that sort of speculative market, which certainly

:27:35.:27:38.

boomed under Labour's time because capital gains tax came down. Would

:27:38.:27:43.

you back an option like that? buy-to-let market is reviving again

:27:43.:27:48.

now. A is that a good thing? yes, we do need people to build

:27:48.:27:53.

more properties. We are making it easier to change use, to convert

:27:53.:27:56.

from commercial premises or offices and to get that converted into

:27:56.:28:01.

housing. That is one of the answers in the very overcrowded and expense

:28:01.:28:06.

of inner-cities. A few people owning lots and lots of houses,

:28:06.:28:13.

some of our colleagues do that, but housing is affordable to all,

:28:13.:28:16.

whether to rent or own. The problem now is the supply side, it happens

:28:16.:28:21.

towards the end of our time in government... You can't sell off

:28:21.:28:28.

all the social housing... We are going to do Guess the Year. The

:28:28.:28:38.
:28:38.:28:42.

year was 1974. Let's see who has You win the Daily Politics mug.

:28:42.:28:47.

Jo Coburn and Andrew Neil are joined by Michael Fallon and Sadiq Khan to discuss the political fallout from the gay marriage vote as well as Prime Minister's Questions all the latest political news, interviews and debate. The Guess the Year competition closes at 12.30pm during the live broadcast of this programme.


Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS