Browse content similar to 05/02/2013. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Afternoon. Welcome to the Daily Politics. Today it is all about the | :00:45. | :00:49. | |
bells - wedding and division. Yes, it is the big day in the Commons, | :00:49. | :00:53. | |
but will Dave's proposals for gay marriage lead to a divorce with his | :00:53. | :00:56. | |
party? We will have the latest before tonight's vote. | :00:56. | :00:59. | |
Farewell Chris Huhne. But will a coalition war break out over your | :00:59. | :01:02. | |
seat? We will be looking ahead to the Eastleigh by-election. | :01:02. | :01:06. | |
We'll meet one of the most powerful men in British politics. Recognise | :01:06. | :01:09. | |
him? No? Then you had better stay tuned. | :01:09. | :01:13. | |
And talking of powerful men. Who would have thought the bones of | :01:13. | :01:19. | |
Richard III would cook up a political storm? | :01:19. | :01:23. | |
All that in the next hour. With us for the duration is the Guardian | :01:23. | :01:29. | |
columnist, Polly Toynbee. Welcome. Now, first today, let's talk about | :01:29. | :01:32. | |
something that has been dubbed the bedroom tax, which isn't a tax at | :01:32. | :01:37. | |
all. People in council homes with a spare room have been told they will | :01:37. | :01:41. | |
have their housing benefit reduced unless they move to a smaller home. | :01:41. | :01:44. | |
Yesterday, the Labour MP Kerry McCarthy raised the issue in the | :01:44. | :01:49. | |
House of Commons. She was worried about what would happen to people | :01:49. | :01:52. | |
who couldn't afford to stay in their homes but the Lib Dem | :01:52. | :01:56. | |
Minister Don Foster said that Labour had supported a similar idea. | :01:56. | :02:01. | |
The department's assessment says that more hundred -- more than | :02:01. | :02:05. | |
660,000 claimants would be affected by these changes and it is | :02:05. | :02:10. | |
ridiculous to assume they can find the money from their own pockets. | :02:10. | :02:14. | |
They will be forced to lose their home. What assessment has been made | :02:14. | :02:20. | |
of the availability of smaller accommodation? Want to be pushed | :02:20. | :02:24. | |
into more expensive private accommodation? -- won't they be | :02:24. | :02:30. | |
pushed? There are a very large number of properties that are | :02:30. | :02:33. | |
currently under occupied and that will help enormously in a policy | :02:33. | :02:38. | |
that is identical, are identical, to the one that was adopted by the | :02:38. | :02:43. | |
label government in respect of housing benefit being paid in the | :02:43. | :02:47. | |
private rented sector! We are taking the advice of the Labour | :02:47. | :02:53. | |
Party who said a year ago, housing benefit is to hire and we need | :02:53. | :03:01. | |
tough minded reform. -- housing benefit is too high a. | :03:01. | :03:05. | |
Isn't this a fairly practical way to reduce it? The reason housing | :03:05. | :03:09. | |
benefit is so high is because the value of housing has gone up so | :03:09. | :03:15. | |
much, rent has gone up so much, and unless one government or Another | :03:15. | :03:18. | |
find a way of pegging it to inflation at least, that will keep | :03:18. | :03:24. | |
happening. One story from Hartlepool, one from Liverpool. | :03:24. | :03:27. | |
Families whose children have recently died and were told they | :03:27. | :03:32. | |
had to move because they have now got a spare bedroom. Not only do | :03:32. | :03:39. | |
they lose their child but they have got to moves. Where to? There often | :03:39. | :03:43. | |
are not smaller council properties available so they are told they had | :03:43. | :03:47. | |
got to go but without being given the place they can go to. There | :03:47. | :03:53. | |
will always be these tragic cases when you design legislation. There | :03:53. | :03:57. | |
will be deserving people who lose out. But in terms of what changes | :03:57. | :04:01. | |
could be made to bring down the bill of housing benefit, isn't this | :04:01. | :04:06. | |
a fairly easy way of freeing up some living space if there spare | :04:06. | :04:11. | |
rooms are not being used? A lot of those people will have to go into | :04:11. | :04:14. | |
temporary accommodation and bed- and-breakfasts, which will cost the | :04:14. | :04:19. | |
earth. The councils have no discretion. This is very rigid. The | :04:20. | :04:25. | |
council cannot say, we do not have any one-bedroom property, you are | :04:25. | :04:29. | |
in a two-bedroom property with your child, and they do not have the | :04:29. | :04:34. | |
discretion to say, so we will leave things as they are. Often, absurdly, | :04:34. | :04:38. | |
councils will end up picking up the bill for trying to temporarily | :04:38. | :04:42. | |
house these people who have been thrown out. But to call it a | :04:43. | :04:47. | |
bedroom tax is to imply something different to what is suggested, | :04:47. | :04:50. | |
which is a way of reducing the amount of housing benefit paid to | :04:50. | :05:00. | |
:05:00. | :05:01. | ||
people? It is a shorthand. The with political implications. If one of | :05:01. | :05:04. | |
your children go to university and may be coming back in the holiday, | :05:04. | :05:08. | |
suddenly you are told you cannot be in a two-bedroom place any more, | :05:08. | :05:14. | |
your student has gone. We all know students don't go! They come back | :05:14. | :05:17. | |
home. And David Cameron is proposing they come back home until | :05:17. | :05:22. | |
they are 25, but their bedroom will not be there because while they are | :05:22. | :05:25. | |
at university, it will have been gone. | :05:25. | :05:29. | |
You can hardly have failed to notice that there has been a bit of | :05:29. | :05:33. | |
a barney going on about gay marriage. David Cameron raised the | :05:33. | :05:36. | |
issue when he spoke about it at the Conservative Party conference in | :05:36. | :05:39. | |
2011. But despite getting warm applause at the time, it by no | :05:39. | :05:43. | |
means pleased everyone in his party. The argument has been going on for | :05:43. | :05:46. | |
months but so far MPs haven't actually voted on anything. Today | :05:46. | :05:49. | |
that changes with the second reading of the Marriage (Same Sex | :05:49. | :05:53. | |
Couples) Bill. Jon Pienaar is out on College Green and he can tell us | :05:53. | :05:57. | |
more. This piece of legislation | :05:57. | :06:01. | |
essentially is going to open up the practice of civil registry | :06:01. | :06:05. | |
operations carrying out full- fledged weddings between same-sex | :06:05. | :06:10. | |
couples. They will be recognised and recorded as weddings. That is | :06:10. | :06:13. | |
the largest change that will take place when this piece of | :06:13. | :06:18. | |
legislation becomes law. The most controversial bit as you suggested | :06:18. | :06:22. | |
is where churches get involved. Because of the status of the Church | :06:23. | :06:28. | |
of England, as the established Church, the Church of England, | :06:28. | :06:32. | |
which has stated its opposition, is specifically excluded. The Catholic | :06:32. | :06:38. | |
Church has made its use known. No church will be forced to take part. | :06:38. | :06:44. | |
-- made its opinions known. It is still enormously complicated | :06:44. | :06:47. | |
ethically and particularly so for David Cameron and the Tories. | :06:47. | :06:52. | |
It has caused a lot of political argument. | :06:52. | :06:57. | |
We expect the government to win. David Cameron will have a majority | :06:57. | :07:01. | |
because Labour and the Liberal Democrats will be with him. There | :07:01. | :07:06. | |
will be an enormous split on the Tory side, 120 MPs are clearly | :07:07. | :07:11. | |
against this. They will be outnumbered. David Cameron will get | :07:11. | :07:18. | |
his way. Whether or not this is David Cameron's way of showing how | :07:18. | :07:24. | |
far the Tory party has changed or if he believes it, but others say | :07:24. | :07:29. | |
there could be a price to pay for David Cameron. That is part of a | :07:29. | :07:33. | |
wider debate -- debate. We know three senior Cabinet | :07:33. | :07:38. | |
members, Tories, have made an appeal to their party today in the | :07:38. | :07:44. | |
leading papers. That could make a difference. There | :07:44. | :07:47. | |
are people who do not feel very strongly one way or another who | :07:47. | :07:52. | |
could be influenced and they could be swayed by this intervention by | :07:52. | :07:57. | |
senior ministers. But so many have pretty clear ideas about this. It | :07:57. | :08:02. | |
will not have a massive effect but we know there will be a big, big | :08:02. | :08:06. | |
division on the vote at 7pm this evening. It is a free vote, people | :08:07. | :08:12. | |
are free to vote with their consciences. It could feel to David | :08:12. | :08:16. | |
Cameron as if he has been given a bit of a pasting. | :08:16. | :08:23. | |
Well done despite that background helicopter noise there. | :08:24. | :08:26. | |
And we are joined now by the director of the gay-rights campaign | :08:27. | :08:29. | |
group, Stonewall, Ben Summerskill. And from Catholic Voices, Fiona | :08:29. | :08:33. | |
O'Reilly. The bill gives religious organisations the chance to opt out | :08:33. | :08:39. | |
but they have been the most vocal opponents. Why? While the | :08:39. | :08:42. | |
government is not trying to redefine religious marriage it is | :08:42. | :08:46. | |
looking to change civil marriage and that affects all of us in | :08:46. | :08:50. | |
society. The church is speaking out because they see the grave risks | :08:50. | :08:54. | |
that this brings. They see the risks coming from two different | :08:54. | :08:59. | |
places. They are looking at what happens when we changed a | :08:59. | :09:03. | |
fundamental building block of our society, marriage. If you change | :09:03. | :09:07. | |
the definition of marriage, you effectively removes from law the | :09:07. | :09:11. | |
ability to protect marriage defined in that way. The Church says | :09:11. | :09:15. | |
marriage is good for children and if you take out of law the ability | :09:15. | :09:20. | |
to recognise and protect the fact that it is only between husband and | :09:20. | :09:26. | |
wife that new life can come and be given its best start, you we can | :09:26. | :09:35. | |
society as a whole. -- you then we can society. Stonewall have never | :09:35. | :09:40. | |
regarded ourselves as a gay rights group. The reason I say that is | :09:40. | :09:44. | |
because all we have ever sought is exactly the same rights that | :09:44. | :09:49. | |
everyone else takes for granted from the day they were born. The | :09:49. | :09:54. | |
reality is, they are already tens of thousands of children in this | :09:54. | :10:00. | |
country who are grubbing up with lesbian or gay parents -- there are | :10:00. | :10:07. | |
already. Growing up with lesbian or gay parents. Fiona may not agree | :10:07. | :10:11. | |
with that but that children are entitled to grow up without | :10:11. | :10:18. | |
structure. There is no evidence that children who grow up but two | :10:18. | :10:25. | |
mums and dads N-Dubz any different from any other children to -- end | :10:26. | :10:32. | |
up any different. We do not know what the impact are because this is | :10:32. | :10:37. | |
a recent change, but same-sex couples and those who are adopting | :10:37. | :10:41. | |
children are doing a splendid job in difficult circumstances. However, | :10:41. | :10:45. | |
the Data says that if you want to give a job the best start in life, | :10:45. | :10:50. | |
and this is not to be disrespectful of other arrangements, then you do | :10:50. | :10:54. | |
so by allowing children to be raised by their biological mother | :10:54. | :10:59. | |
and father in a stable and committed relationship. If this | :10:59. | :11:03. | |
legislation was truly looking to make marriage available to same-sex | :11:03. | :11:08. | |
couples on a completely equal basis, then you would have to wonder why | :11:08. | :11:13. | |
same-sex couples do not have to consummate the relationship? Where | :11:13. | :11:17. | |
a dog Tree for same-sex couples will not be grounds for divorce -- | :11:17. | :11:23. | |
why adultery of for same-sex couples? I think you have | :11:23. | :11:26. | |
misunderstood the legislation. There is unreasonable behaviour in | :11:26. | :11:31. | |
terms of adultery. There is very little evidence that that has | :11:31. | :11:34. | |
presented any difficulty in the seven years we have had civil | :11:34. | :11:39. | |
partnerships. I do appreciate that some people, particularly in the | :11:39. | :11:43. | |
Roman Catholic Church, do like to get obsessed with the sexual | :11:43. | :11:49. | |
details of consummation but gay people are not quite as obsessed | :11:49. | :11:55. | |
with sex as you might be yourself. Can you respond to the point about | :11:55. | :11:59. | |
to make better parents? You seem to cite evidence that gay couples | :11:59. | :12:05. | |
could not be as effective? There is absolutely clear evidence now, and | :12:05. | :12:10. | |
there used to be a lot of bogus evidence to the contrary, there is | :12:10. | :12:14. | |
clear evidence from places like the University of Cambridge that | :12:14. | :12:22. | |
children do not grow up develop mentally different from others. | :12:22. | :12:26. | |
There are 3 million children in this country growing up in single- | :12:26. | :12:31. | |
parent households. If they really cared about two-parent families, | :12:31. | :12:35. | |
they would be addressing those long before they turned their attention | :12:35. | :12:39. | |
time and time and time again to a tiny number of lesbian and gay | :12:39. | :12:44. | |
families. We are not talking about the individual experiences of | :12:44. | :12:48. | |
couples, we are talking about how an institution is defined in law | :12:48. | :12:53. | |
and what we can provide for, and what we are saying is that it is | :12:53. | :12:57. | |
important that in law we are able to recognise a unit, a husband and | :12:57. | :13:03. | |
wife, and be able to provide for that and for other relationships. | :13:03. | :13:09. | |
For centuries, marriage has quite properly been redefined as people's | :13:09. | :13:14. | |
understanding of the changes. Only 20 years ago, rape in marriage was | :13:14. | :13:18. | |
made an awful. It is only 15 years ago that people could start getting | :13:18. | :13:24. | |
married in stately homes and amusement parks. Can I go to the | :13:24. | :13:30. | |
issue of the redefinition of marriage. I think most outsiders | :13:30. | :13:34. | |
are a bit puzzled by this because it is just a word. The legal status | :13:35. | :13:40. | |
of being a civil partner, nothing changes about that. They have all | :13:40. | :13:44. | |
the same legal rights, tax rights inheritance rights, so the argument | :13:44. | :13:47. | |
is literally about whether one group of people should be allowed | :13:47. | :13:52. | |
to use the word marriage. It has no other legal meaning. Most people | :13:52. | :13:58. | |
are saying, the stable door has long shut. The course has gone. We | :13:58. | :14:05. | |
have gay rights. -- do horse. We have many gay couples with children. | :14:05. | :14:10. | |
All you are left with is the empty word. You can fight over that but I | :14:10. | :14:14. | |
think by now the rest of society has moved on and are a bit | :14:14. | :14:18. | |
perplexed by it. What about religious organisations? The | :14:18. | :14:24. | |
provisions that will protect the Church of England for example. Do | :14:24. | :14:29. | |
you think they should be protected. It seems to be idiotic and sad that | :14:29. | :14:32. | |
we have a new Archbishop of Canterbury who could be starting | :14:32. | :14:36. | |
again, saying, this is distracting people from what we are really | :14:36. | :14:41. | |
about, and it pushes the church back to talking about nothing but | :14:41. | :14:47. | |
sex. Michael goes's own department has said, safeguards are not worth | :14:47. | :14:52. | |
the paper they are we to none -- Michael Gove. Basically because | :14:52. | :14:57. | |
what they do is they say the government will take no action | :14:57. | :15:01. | |
unless there is discrimination, and discrimination is a highly | :15:01. | :15:06. | |
contested topic, and the European Court of Human Rights would be the | :15:06. | :15:09. | |
Court of Appeal for anything that happens in this country, and last | :15:09. | :15:14. | |
year they said if a government introduces same-sex legislation, | :15:14. | :15:18. | |
they would have to make marriage available to everybody on exactly | :15:18. | :15:22. | |
the same basis once that is in place and that would also affect | :15:22. | :15:32. | |
:15:32. | :15:39. | ||
The European Court has made it quite clear that family matters are | :15:39. | :15:45. | |
delegated to individual states. Most hopefully, Fiona's | :15:45. | :15:50. | |
organisation produced a briefing last year which said precisely that. | :15:50. | :15:55. | |
And that briefing was before a particular case, which proved that | :15:55. | :16:01. | |
actually, the courts have moved on. We have to take regard of | :16:01. | :16:05. | |
legislation. The other thing people have to look at is, what has | :16:05. | :16:11. | |
happened in Canada, Spain and other countries. And what you see is, you | :16:11. | :16:19. | |
see divorce rates rising, and... This is a nonsense. The Government | :16:19. | :16:26. | |
has offered this quadruple lock... It has offered it to denominations | :16:26. | :16:31. | |
such as the Roman Catholics, who do not want to engage in same-sex | :16:31. | :16:35. | |
marriage. But there is also the really important issue of religious | :16:35. | :16:40. | |
freedom. There are denominations success the quitters, who have | :16:40. | :16:45. | |
prayed, who have consulted a decided that they want to host | :16:45. | :16:50. | |
same-sex marriages. It is not for a denominations such as your own to | :16:50. | :16:54. | |
come and trample over the religious freedom of other denominations. | :16:54. | :16:58. | |
This is not about the Catholic Church imposing its own | :16:58. | :17:01. | |
understanding of religious marriage. The Government is changing the | :17:01. | :17:07. | |
definition of civil marriage, which affects all of us. Two Conservative | :17:07. | :17:12. | |
MPs whose views are not married on this issue are in the central lobby. | :17:12. | :17:19. | |
Welcome to the programme, Peter Bone and Nick Herbert. This letter, | :17:19. | :17:21. | |
signed by George Osborne and Theresa May, saying that a | :17:21. | :17:25. | |
substantial majority of the public now favour allowing same-sex | :17:25. | :17:30. | |
couples to marry, this is the right thing to do at the right time - do | :17:30. | :17:34. | |
you agree with it? It is a very interesting argument. What it says | :17:34. | :17:39. | |
is that people think this is a good measure. I do not think that my | :17:39. | :17:42. | |
view or anybody else's you really matters, it is what the people | :17:42. | :17:47. | |
think. This is not in anybody's manifesto. Nobody has put this | :17:47. | :17:52. | |
forward as a policy. Let the people decide. It will unite the | :17:52. | :17:59. | |
Conservative Party overnight, like the European referendum dead. -- | :17:59. | :18:03. | |
did. What I am concerned about is the people on the other side of the | :18:03. | :18:07. | |
argument, who do not want that referendum, which I think is anti- | :18:07. | :18:11. | |
democratic. This kind of issue is usually decided with legislation. I | :18:11. | :18:16. | |
do not object to the principles of a referendum, but since all of the | :18:16. | :18:22. | |
a pendant -- independent opinion polls are suggesting that a | :18:22. | :18:30. | |
majority of the public is in favour of this, then... You have no need | :18:30. | :18:37. | |
to worry about a referendum, then. We cannot sort every issue out with | :18:37. | :18:42. | |
a referendum. Normally, Parliament takes a view on these issues. | :18:42. | :18:47. | |
Normally it is a manifesto issue. David Cameron has always made his | :18:47. | :18:52. | |
position clear on this - in his first speech as party leader at the | :18:52. | :18:56. | |
party conference, he spoke about this and won applause, which | :18:56. | :19:00. | |
reflects the fact that attitudes are changing in the Conservative | :19:00. | :19:07. | |
Party as elsewhere. This is very important - three days before the | :19:07. | :19:12. | |
general election, on Sky Television, the Prime Minister to be said he | :19:12. | :19:16. | |
had no plans to bring in gay marriage. That's what he said, | :19:16. | :19:20. | |
that's how people voted, and that is why what Nick Herbert has said | :19:20. | :19:24. | |
it is not correct. It was not in the party manifesto at the general | :19:25. | :19:28. | |
election, and the Prime Minister to be said he would not be introducing | :19:28. | :19:32. | |
gay marriage. The change has happened after the election, which | :19:32. | :19:37. | |
is undemocratic. But you're getting a free vote, which is quite often... | :19:37. | :19:44. | |
It is not. You know very well that on this motion, the most important | :19:44. | :19:47. | |
section of what we are going to vote on today, there is a heavy | :19:47. | :19:52. | |
three-line whip, and any minister who votes against it will be thrown | :19:52. | :19:58. | |
out of the government. It is not a free vote. Well, it is certainly a | :19:58. | :20:03. | |
free vote on the key issue, the issue of principle - do you support | :20:03. | :20:08. | |
it or not? We know that some ministers will not support it, so I | :20:08. | :20:12. | |
think that indicates that it is a free vote. That having been | :20:12. | :20:15. | |
established, and I think the majority of the House of Commons | :20:15. | :20:20. | |
will support it, the Government is perfectly entitled to say, we need | :20:20. | :20:25. | |
sufficient time to debate it. It will have two days of consideration | :20:25. | :20:29. | |
of the floor of the House of Commons, which is additional to | :20:29. | :20:35. | |
what had been expected. We have heard an awful lot of use being | :20:35. | :20:39. | |
presented on this issue - do you dismissed the view which has been | :20:40. | :20:44. | |
expressed by some in your party that it could actually damage the | :20:44. | :20:51. | |
Conservative Party electorally? do not dismiss any views. Firstly, | :20:51. | :20:55. | |
we have got the political issues, and I disagree that it will be | :20:55. | :21:02. | |
damaging to the Conservative Party. I don't think there is any evidence | :21:02. | :21:07. | |
to suggest that. Any party has to Mount a broad appeal to society. | :21:07. | :21:11. | |
The most important issue is actually the issue of principle, | :21:11. | :21:15. | |
and I respect the fact that some people in conscience disagree. We | :21:15. | :21:18. | |
must make sure that religious freedom is guaranteed in the | :21:18. | :21:23. | |
legislation. I believe it has been. I would not support the bill | :21:23. | :21:27. | |
otherwise. But let's remember, if you do not want to enter a same-sex | :21:27. | :21:31. | |
marriage, you do not have to. If your church does not want to | :21:31. | :21:40. | |
conduct it, it does not have to. So, why is this proposal harmful? Why | :21:40. | :21:46. | |
is it harmful to the institution of marriage? I would say, far from it. | :21:46. | :21:51. | |
Peter Bone, that's the view which was expressed by David Cameron - | :21:51. | :21:55. | |
you are a conservative, let everyone be able to opt into the | :21:55. | :22:00. | |
institution of marriage, in which you believe... I personally believe | :22:00. | :22:04. | |
that marriage is only between a man and woman. That is not to say that | :22:04. | :22:09. | |
my view or David Cameron's view is right. That is why I say that it | :22:09. | :22:17. | |
should be put to the British people. The programme motion is not a free | :22:17. | :22:22. | |
vote, and that is really the problem. Today will be -- we will | :22:22. | :22:25. | |
be allowed a maximum of four minutes to discuss this. There has | :22:25. | :22:29. | |
not been enough time. The Government is trying to get this | :22:29. | :22:34. | |
through, this huge constitutional change, without proper scrutiny. It | :22:34. | :22:38. | |
is really, really wrong. It is a simple answer - let the British | :22:38. | :22:42. | |
people decide. Why not have it on the same day as the in-out | :22:42. | :22:50. | |
referendum on Europe? Briefly, Polly Toynbee, listening to this, | :22:50. | :22:54. | |
out in the country, there could be a feeling that the Tory party is to | :22:54. | :22:59. | |
some extent tearing itself apart over this, but once it is done and | :22:59. | :23:04. | |
it is over, and if it does go through, will it not be forgotten | :23:04. | :23:08. | |
about? I think the issue itself will be forgotten by tomorrow | :23:08. | :23:13. | |
morning. I think it is so irrelevant. People are absolutely | :23:13. | :23:17. | |
puzzled - how is it that a party in power, in the worst depression of | :23:17. | :23:21. | |
our lifetime, is wasting time on something most of the voters... | :23:22. | :23:26. | |
What about fox-hunting? That was not in the middle of the worst of | :23:26. | :23:34. | |
the Depression. I think what we'll -- what we will be left with is a | :23:34. | :23:37. | |
sense of quite how disunited the Tories are. Europe is still | :23:37. | :23:42. | |
bubbling away. There are all sorts of issues tearing them apart. | :23:42. | :23:46. | |
That's to say nothing of these curious groups plotting against a | :23:46. | :23:51. | |
leader who was really rather successful, outscoring the | :23:51. | :23:54. | |
opposition by quite some way. Why on earth are they are plotting | :23:54. | :23:59. | |
against him? These kinds of things are very toxic for voters. They do | :23:59. | :24:04. | |
not like splits within parties. Unity is very important. Let's see | :24:04. | :24:11. | |
what happens later on this evening. 7913 miles is quite a long way to | :24:11. | :24:16. | |
go for a meeting, especially when the meeting gets cancelled. Two | :24:16. | :24:20. | |
Falkland Island politicians were invited to London by William Hague | :24:20. | :24:23. | |
to take part in discussions with him and Argentina's Foreign | :24:23. | :24:27. | |
Minister. Their presence was not welcomed by the Argentinian | :24:27. | :24:31. | |
politician, who pulled out. Undaunted, they have come anyway, | :24:32. | :24:39. | |
and they are on College green. any way you slice it, 8,000 miles | :24:39. | :24:43. | |
is a helluva long way to come for a meeting. Perhaps what it shows you | :24:43. | :24:48. | |
is just what a sensitive issue this is for Argentina, and how difficult | :24:48. | :24:51. | |
it will be to find a resolution for this dispute which keeps everybody | :24:51. | :24:58. | |
happy. I am joined now by Dick Sawle and Jan Cheek from the | :24:58. | :25:02. | |
Falklands Legislative Assembly. Has this not been a wasted journey? | :25:03. | :25:07. | |
at all. We will be meeting with the Foreign Secretary, and with some | :25:07. | :25:11. | |
MPs from Parliament. And hopefully, we will be able to speak to Senor | :25:11. | :25:15. | |
Timerman himself. If we do not talk up, the problem will just get | :25:15. | :25:19. | |
larger. Do you think he will come and see you somewhere at the | :25:19. | :25:24. | |
airport perhaps, Jan Cheek? It is rather unlikely, but we thought we | :25:24. | :25:30. | |
should take this opportunity to come across and make sure that the | :25:30. | :25:35. | |
island's view was represented, and that any miss intervention -- | :25:35. | :25:39. | |
misinformation which might be put out could be corrected promptly. | :25:39. | :25:43. | |
you not feel a bit used by the Foreign Office, in some respects? | :25:43. | :25:46. | |
It was fairly unlikely that the Argentinians would sit down with | :25:46. | :25:51. | |
you guys. Have you been used in some way to head up a meeting which | :25:51. | :25:57. | |
was never going to happen? I don't think so. It was very clear that if | :25:57. | :26:00. | |
Argentina wanted to have a bilateral conversation with Great | :26:00. | :26:04. | |
Britain, they would be quite free to do that, on any issue, apart | :26:04. | :26:07. | |
from the Falkland Islands. They have made it clear that they do not | :26:07. | :26:10. | |
wish to have any conversations about the Falkland Islands over the | :26:10. | :26:15. | |
top of our heads. It is fundamental, we have the right of self- | :26:15. | :26:19. | |
determination. The British Government respect that. I am | :26:19. | :26:22. | |
sensing from what you say that you have got the referendum coming up | :26:22. | :26:27. | |
next month, and the chances of you voting to go with Argentina are | :26:27. | :26:30. | |
pretty unlikely. Just to play devil's advocate, what would be so | :26:30. | :26:36. | |
wrong with that, planners are Reyes is closer than London? I don't | :26:36. | :26:41. | |
think geographical Brum meet City - - geographical proximity is the | :26:41. | :26:46. | |
issue. It is about the Falkland Islanders and what they want. | :26:47. | :26:50. | |
you were sitting down with Hector Timerman, what would you be saying | :26:51. | :26:55. | |
to him? I would be saying, let's talk. We have some issues we would | :26:55. | :26:59. | |
like to talk about, areas where be can co-operate to mutual benefit. | :26:59. | :27:03. | |
We have the oil industry, opportunities for South America, we | :27:03. | :27:07. | |
have problems with fish stocks, which we used to talk to them about. | :27:07. | :27:12. | |
We used to have regular dialogue with them and regular research. | :27:12. | :27:18. | |
there any way of resolving this to everyone's satisfaction? I think it | :27:18. | :27:22. | |
will be difficult with the current stance of the Argentine government, | :27:22. | :27:28. | |
but we are always open to talk about regional interests. I would | :27:28. | :27:33. | |
agree with that. Also, one has to bear in mind that governments to | :27:33. | :27:36. | |
change. We might have a government in Argentina some time soon which | :27:36. | :27:46. | |
:27:46. | :27:46. | ||
we can talk to. I think the Chancellor -- the chances of the | :27:46. | :27:52. | |
Chancellor giving these two a lift back to South America are slim. | :27:52. | :27:56. | |
Last week we heard the Electoral Commission's verdict on the | :27:56. | :27:59. | |
proposed Scottish referendum question. This week, preparations | :27:59. | :28:03. | |
north of the border are gathering pace, with the Scottish Government | :28:03. | :28:06. | |
publishing plans for a transition to an independent Scotland. The | :28:06. | :28:11. | |
referendum has been scheduled for autumn 2014. Under the plans, if | :28:11. | :28:15. | |
the Scottish people vote yes, Independence Day would be set for | :28:15. | :28:20. | |
March 2016. Elections to a new independent Scottish Parliament | :28:20. | :28:23. | |
would take place in May of that year. Before these elections could | :28:23. | :28:27. | |
be held, a written constitution would have to be drawn up. The | :28:27. | :28:31. | |
Westminster government would have to legislate to end the Treaty of | :28:31. | :28:35. | |
Union. The Scottish Government is asking the Westminster Government | :28:35. | :28:38. | |
to end to intro preparatory discussions about this. But David | :28:38. | :28:48. | |
Cameron is resisting. -- to enter into... One might suggest you're | :28:48. | :28:51. | |
jumping the gun a bit with this document. The referendum campaign | :28:51. | :29:00. | |
has only just started... Not at all. The last time on -- the last time I | :29:00. | :29:04. | |
was on a Daily Politics, you were asking if we would act on the | :29:04. | :29:06. | |
recommendations of the Electoral Commission, and that is exactly | :29:06. | :29:10. | |
what we are doing. It is now for the UK Government to respond and | :29:10. | :29:17. | |
tell us how they would sit down and discuss matters of process. We are | :29:17. | :29:20. | |
asking for an exchange of information. We are not asking for | :29:20. | :29:24. | |
the UK Government to campaign for a yes vote, that might be too or | :29:24. | :29:31. | |
ambitious. It is certainly a comprehensive document, given we | :29:31. | :29:35. | |
have not even got a precise date for the referendum itself yet. You | :29:35. | :29:38. | |
say you want to follow the advice of the Electoral Commission, but | :29:38. | :29:41. | |
they have said that the voters will want to know about the process | :29:41. | :29:45. | |
following the referendum, but they do not need to know the exact terms | :29:45. | :29:48. | |
of independence, neither do they have to be agreed before the vote, | :29:48. | :29:53. | |
so why are you rushing? We are not rushing, we are taking our time. | :29:53. | :29:57. | |
Not so long ago, we were told we were being too slow. I think we | :29:57. | :30:01. | |
have got the balance right. We will publish information on what | :30:01. | :30:04. | |
independence would mean, the benefits of independence, and those | :30:04. | :30:08. | |
will be published over the course of the campaign. In the democratic | :30:08. | :30:13. | |
vote, the people of Scotland will have their say in the autumn of | :30:13. | :30:20. | |
2014. You could argue that you are becoming a bit obsessed with | :30:20. | :30:24. | |
process. The Scottish Secretary has said, the Scottish Government | :30:24. | :30:27. | |
should be concentrating on substantive issues in this debate, | :30:27. | :30:34. | |
rather than endless distractions over process. They say, once again, | :30:34. | :30:37. | |
they are devoting their energy to the picture frame, without having a | :30:37. | :30:47. | |
:30:47. | :30:53. | ||
You have still got to resolve the issue of financial assets and | :30:54. | :30:59. | |
liabilities, military bases, overseas assets. Are they not the | :30:59. | :31:05. | |
things people want to hear about in Scotland? People want a certainty | :31:05. | :31:09. | |
around continuity. We are more than happy to talk about the substantive | :31:09. | :31:14. | |
issues on Scottish independence, while Scotland would be a wealthier, | :31:14. | :31:20. | |
healthier, fairer and green men nation? People have to know that | :31:20. | :31:24. | |
the process will be fair and positive and the challenge I put | :31:24. | :31:27. | |
back to the UK government is they can solve this in one day if they | :31:27. | :31:33. | |
agree a joint station with us -- joint statement with us on matters | :31:33. | :31:38. | |
of process? Well would you expect David Cameron and the government in | :31:38. | :31:44. | |
Westminster have to agree to details of a constitution now when | :31:44. | :31:48. | |
they are opposed to the idea of independence? We are not asking | :31:48. | :31:53. | |
them to agree to the details of the written constitution. We are asking | :31:53. | :31:57. | |
them to exchange Thatcher will information to show what options | :31:57. | :32:04. | |
are available to Scotland -- exchange factor will informations. | :32:04. | :32:10. | |
We should exchange that information so that there is be clear process | :32:10. | :32:14. | |
on how opposed a referendum negotiations will be conducted. One | :32:14. | :32:19. | |
of our challenges was that the process would be too quick. Since | :32:19. | :32:24. | |
1945, of the 30 nations that have become independent and recognised | :32:24. | :32:29. | |
by the UN, on average the timescale was 15 months, which just goes to | :32:29. | :32:33. | |
show that the position of Scottish government had taken was in keeping | :32:33. | :32:39. | |
with the experience of other normal and independent nations. One of the | :32:39. | :32:44. | |
substantive issues in Scotland's status in terms of membership of | :32:44. | :32:50. | |
the European Union. How are those discussions covering with the EU? | :32:50. | :32:53. | |
The Deputy First Minister has written to the nations of the | :32:53. | :32:57. | |
European Union. A new response? I am not sure what correspondence | :32:58. | :33:03. | |
has been received. I think you would know. The Deputy First | :33:03. | :33:09. | |
Minister has written to the nations within the European Union. Our | :33:09. | :33:16. | |
position is that Scotland will stay in the EU on the vote in 2014 and | :33:16. | :33:20. | |
will have that period to discuss with the European Union our | :33:20. | :33:25. | |
position. It is curious that in the debate in the UK context, the | :33:25. | :33:30. | |
question of whether Scotland will be in Europe is coloured by the | :33:30. | :33:34. | |
position of the UK government, which the Tories are certainly | :33:34. | :33:41. | |
proposing a referendum to take the UK out of Europe. Scotland would | :33:41. | :33:45. | |
only have a say it will have been the powers of an independent nation. | :33:45. | :33:49. | |
What do you make of the ideal setting out the terms of the | :33:49. | :33:54. | |
transition explicitly at this stage? It is sensible. They want to | :33:54. | :33:59. | |
make it seem practical and likely. The more they can discuss it in | :33:59. | :34:03. | |
detail, the more realistic it seems. And that is why the government is | :34:03. | :34:08. | |
worried and will not engage. Indeed and I understand. They do not want | :34:08. | :34:12. | |
to talk about what will happen to pensions, defence, difficult | :34:12. | :34:19. | |
subjects, but the SNP will have their answers to that. Will they | :34:19. | :34:25. | |
bite the referendum date? They will have good enough answers. But | :34:25. | :34:28. | |
others will say they are not good enough answers and the voters will | :34:29. | :34:34. | |
decide. I think the big decisive issue will be, who looks as if they | :34:34. | :34:37. | |
will win the Westminster election? If it looks as if the Conservatives | :34:38. | :34:43. | |
might win again, I think Scotland might go off. If it looks as though | :34:43. | :34:47. | |
the Conservatives are going to use, which it does at the moment, I | :34:47. | :34:52. | |
think it will swing. Scotland is not a Conservative country. Being | :34:52. | :34:56. | |
governed by Conservatives, it is an abrasive time to be having that | :34:56. | :35:03. | |
referendum. Or write. -- a right. Tony thinks it is about time Ed | :35:03. | :35:06. | |
announced a few ideas. But should they be New Labour, Old Labour, | :35:06. | :35:10. | |
Blue Labour, purple? Or even just Ed's Labour? The Daily Politics has | :35:10. | :35:14. | |
been given a rare interview with one figure in the party who is | :35:14. | :35:17. | |
likely to have a big influence on their future direction of travel. | :35:17. | :35:22. | |
But who is he? I will let David Thompson explain. | :35:22. | :35:27. | |
Meet one of the most powerful men in British politics. He keeps a low | :35:27. | :35:32. | |
profile but he might be setting the course of our next government. Ed | :35:32. | :35:36. | |
Miliband certainly hopes so. He is the ideas man for the Labour Party. | :35:36. | :35:40. | |
His job is to come up with the policies that will convince you to | :35:40. | :35:46. | |
vote for Ed Miliband in the next election. But to his seat? He is a | :35:46. | :35:50. | |
sailor's son who went to a comprehensive in Portsmouth, then | :35:50. | :35:54. | |
academia before working for the Labour Party. He became the link | :35:54. | :35:58. | |
between Number Ten and the unions in the first Tony Blair government. | :35:58. | :36:02. | |
He ran unsuccessfully for deputy leadership in 2007. There are | :36:03. | :36:07. | |
interesting, but where does Jon Cruddas begin with the day-job? | :36:07. | :36:13. | |
Getting people to vote Labour again? Has Labour regain the trust | :36:13. | :36:18. | |
of the voters? Not completely. We did not do enough on housing and we | :36:18. | :36:22. | |
acknowledge that. There is a massive crisis in terms of social | :36:22. | :36:27. | |
housing. We did not do enough on immigration. Ed Miliband is | :36:27. | :36:31. | |
beginning to acknowledge that in terms of some of the recent | :36:31. | :36:37. | |
speeches. We have got a lot to do. There were some negative things but | :36:37. | :36:42. | |
our record was extraordinarily strong for 13 years. We have to | :36:42. | :36:46. | |
acknowledge some of the problems but at the same time, owner our | :36:46. | :36:50. | |
record and develop a policy agenda that goes along with people's | :36:50. | :36:57. | |
concerns today. Labour might be ahead in the polls but their | :36:57. | :37:02. | |
leader's personal ratings usually lag behind David Cameron's. You six | :37:02. | :37:07. | |
that over time. I did not know Ed Miliband until I took the job -- | :37:08. | :37:13. | |
you fix that. I like what I see and the more I see of him, the more | :37:13. | :37:16. | |
impressed I am. He is tough and resilient. He knows when he wants | :37:16. | :37:22. | |
to take the party. It is not fully done in terms of projecting Ed | :37:22. | :37:27. | |
Miliband but over time, I am very confident we will achieve this. | :37:27. | :37:31. | |
editor where they have not seen eye to eye is on Europe. Jon Cruddas | :37:32. | :37:38. | |
was in favour of a referendum. What does he think now? Until I formally | :37:38. | :37:43. | |
took this job my position was fairly clear. Look, the party | :37:43. | :37:49. | |
political position is that we do not see any need for it imminently. | :37:49. | :37:54. | |
Because of the nature of the crisis in the eurozone. To spite holding | :37:54. | :38:00. | |
the reins, Jon Cruddas's -- despite holding the reins, Jon Cruddas | :38:00. | :38:04. | |
insists the policies will not be a shopping list of Labour ideas. | :38:04. | :38:10. | |
the party put forward an agenda I would want, it would not win. That | :38:10. | :38:14. | |
is not the exercise! The task is to build a process. Use the policy | :38:14. | :38:20. | |
review to tell the story about where we want to take the country. | :38:20. | :38:23. | |
Reform the party. Demonstrate it is across the concerns of the British | :38:23. | :38:28. | |
people, and sell that at the time of the general election. | :38:28. | :38:32. | |
Labour's battle plan may not bear too many of the fingerprints of its | :38:32. | :38:37. | |
co-ordinator, which is exactly how Jon Cruddas likes it. | :38:37. | :38:43. | |
We are joined now from the pollsters IPSOS MORI by Ben Page. | :38:43. | :38:48. | |
Polly Toynbee, quite a candid admission from Jon Cruddas, looking | :38:48. | :38:52. | |
after the policy review, that if he put forward his favoured agenda, | :38:52. | :38:58. | |
the voters would never go for it. Is he the right man for the job? | :38:58. | :39:04. | |
Absolutely. He is a great thinker. Not a nuts-and-bolts man. But of | :39:04. | :39:08. | |
course he is right, Labour's dilemma, from the beginning when it | :39:08. | :39:13. | |
was founded, is how far would it go? We would like to be more social | :39:13. | :39:18. | |
democratic but we have to be careful to what extent. Spending of | :39:18. | :39:21. | |
course is spending -- restricted and to what extent do we have to be | :39:22. | :39:27. | |
careful about public opinion? To what extent should Ed Miliband be a | :39:27. | :39:31. | |
strong leader? To what extent should you follow what his focus | :39:31. | :39:36. | |
groups are telling him? He did not support Ed Miliband from the office. | :39:36. | :39:41. | |
He was a David Miliband supporter. Can we be confident he really | :39:41. | :39:47. | |
believes in Ed Miliband? I think he does. Jon Cruddas is alone us. He | :39:47. | :39:52. | |
has been on his own. He has not been at the heart of things. People | :39:52. | :39:58. | |
have tried to get him to run for leadership and things... He did not | :39:58. | :40:04. | |
become deputy leader. The he is an academic and a thinker. He is a | :40:04. | :40:08. | |
kind of Oliver Letwin figure of Labour. Do you want to hear the | :40:08. | :40:12. | |
policy ideas now? Looking at the economy, which we know is the issue | :40:12. | :40:17. | |
that concerns everyone, do we need to hear a strong narrative on the | :40:17. | :40:22. | |
economy from Labour now? necessarily to be honest. I still | :40:22. | :40:28. | |
think it is true that government tends to lose elections. People | :40:28. | :40:32. | |
cast their votes on three things. Their views of the party, their | :40:32. | :40:36. | |
views of the policies and their views of the leader. The policies | :40:36. | :40:42. | |
are only one part of it. Their gut feeling about the state of the | :40:42. | :40:47. | |
party also matters and increasingly, with leadership debates, the leader | :40:47. | :40:51. | |
themselves matter. At the last general election, people were | :40:51. | :40:55. | |
voting on the character of their leader just as much as the policies. | :40:56. | :41:00. | |
As we get me with a time, the clamour in Westminster for policies | :41:00. | :41:04. | |
and red meat of course will rise but at the moment, I would observe | :41:04. | :41:08. | |
that Labour seem to be doing well by watching the Conservatives fall | :41:08. | :41:14. | |
over their shoelaces. In terms of polling, if you think about the | :41:14. | :41:18. | |
economy, no growth, rising inflation, squeezed living | :41:18. | :41:24. | |
standards, and they are 10, at best 15 points ahead. You could argue | :41:24. | :41:30. | |
they are not capitalising on it enough. Yes. It is true that before | :41:30. | :41:33. | |
the 2010 election, there were points that the Conservatives, who | :41:33. | :41:39. | |
did not win, were 22 points ahead on the same measure, so Labour are | :41:39. | :41:43. | |
not in some place where it is cut and dried. But it is certainly | :41:43. | :41:50. | |
better than it has been for them. In a way, Ed Miliband's ratings, he | :41:50. | :41:54. | |
does less well against his party then David Cameron does against his, | :41:54. | :42:00. | |
but he has recovered from a very low point at the end of 2011. He | :42:00. | :42:05. | |
has regained his stature. Any talk of leadership challenges have | :42:05. | :42:09. | |
evaporated. He has a bit more time. I would probably say he has another | :42:09. | :42:15. | |
year, in my judgment personally. You have written recently that | :42:15. | :42:21. | |
Labour should be more daring to seize ground from the Tories. | :42:21. | :42:25. | |
look at the economy particularly, because that is what really matters. | :42:25. | :42:30. | |
If they could produce a good growth and jobs policy. My guess is they | :42:30. | :42:35. | |
will come up with something quite eye-catching like, we will build a | :42:35. | :42:40. | |
million houses over one parliament. Still less than Howard Macmillan. | :42:40. | :42:43. | |
We will have apprenticeships for the young, get the construction | :42:43. | :42:47. | |
industry back again. That can be done and is perfectly reasonable | :42:47. | :42:53. | |
within the fiscal envelope they will have. Investment and growth is | :42:53. | :42:57. | |
what they will really go for. There will be lots of other policies. | :42:57. | :43:02. | |
They will want to move around the spending within the same envelope. | :43:02. | :43:06. | |
Alan Johnson said this this week, will Labour feel obliged to say we | :43:06. | :43:11. | |
will freeze the total size of spending? Particularly as the | :43:11. | :43:15. | |
Conservatives will have announced the spending for 2015. Do you | :43:15. | :43:19. | |
accept that Labour has a problem with combating the central message | :43:19. | :43:23. | |
of the coalition, which is, Labour spent too much and we are paying | :43:23. | :43:28. | |
the price? Lot of people write in and say, we have had enough of | :43:28. | :43:32. | |
blaming Labour. But there is an acceptance in the public that cuts | :43:32. | :43:35. | |
have got to be made and Labour would not be prepared to do their | :43:35. | :43:40. | |
dirty work. That is still a problem. The gap has narrowed a great deal | :43:40. | :43:45. | |
on who is most competent but that is still a problem. | :43:45. | :43:50. | |
Conservatives retain the lead on the economy. Labour is still more | :43:50. | :43:53. | |
likely to be blamed in the coalition government for the cuts, | :43:53. | :44:00. | |
although that is diminishing. But they have to acknowledge that there | :44:00. | :44:05. | |
are challenges. It is a difficult place for them but it is slowly | :44:05. | :44:09. | |
shifting. Whether it will shift enough... It still could be like | :44:09. | :44:15. | |
1992. At the last minute, do you trust that Ed Balls character? | :44:15. | :44:21. | |
is one of the issues. Very briefly. Is the message from Labour on | :44:21. | :44:24. | |
welfare too vague for the public? We broadly support the idea of a | :44:24. | :44:30. | |
benefits cap but not the one put forward by the coalition? Is it is | :44:30. | :44:35. | |
a bit too vague. The cuts to welfare so far, and there are lots | :44:35. | :44:40. | |
going through the mill at the moment in terms of reforms and | :44:40. | :44:46. | |
Universal Credit and the NHS, it is only when voters see the impact on | :44:46. | :44:50. | |
the ground they will determine it, but people assume that Labour are | :44:50. | :44:57. | |
not quite as keen on cuts as the true Rees. -- the Tories. | :44:57. | :44:59. | |
Now the resignation of Chris Huhne yesterday over driving related | :44:59. | :45:03. | |
offences means the people of Eastleigh need to find a new MP. | :45:03. | :45:06. | |
The last time they went to the polls in 2010, the Liberal | :45:06. | :45:09. | |
Democrats pipped the Tories to the post with a majority of just under | :45:09. | :45:12. | |
4,000. This morning the big political guns have come out | :45:12. | :45:15. | |
blazing ahead of the by-election. Lembit Opik announced that if the | :45:15. | :45:18. | |
party lost the seat, then Nick Clegg should consider his position. | :45:18. | :45:22. | |
So could it be a coalition blood- bath? We are joined now by John | :45:22. | :45:32. | |
:45:32. | :45:35. | ||
Curtice, professor of politics at Almost undoubtedly, it is going to | :45:35. | :45:41. | |
be tight. Given the record in by- elections, if the result were to | :45:41. | :45:45. | |
follow current opinion polls, then the Conservatives would narrowly | :45:45. | :45:54. | |
squeaked in. If, on the other hand, it goes the way of recent | :45:54. | :45:58. | |
parliamentary by-elections, at the back end of last year, the Lib Dems | :45:58. | :46:08. | |
:46:08. | :46:10. | ||
would still sneak in. So, in truth, it is too close to call. The most | :46:10. | :46:14. | |
remarkable thing about this by- election, yes, the two coalition | :46:15. | :46:21. | |
partners will be fighting it, but in truth, it is an unpopularity | :46:21. | :46:26. | |
contest, it is whichever of the two parties can lose the least votes. | :46:26. | :46:30. | |
Whichever one can minimise deaden losses to Labour will come out on | :46:30. | :46:39. | |
top. The Tories, of course, are going to have to try to minimise | :46:39. | :46:43. | |
their losses to UKIP as well. Both parties know that it is a difficult | :46:43. | :46:49. | |
task. In recent weeks we have seen David Cameron making a major speech | :46:49. | :46:53. | |
to try to minimise the threat of UKIP, which has not had a great | :46:53. | :46:57. | |
impact. Equally we had Nick Clegg last year making his famous YouTube | :46:57. | :47:01. | |
hit, apologising for those tuition fees fiasco, and that did not do | :47:02. | :47:07. | |
much good, either. You did that very well, without drawing breath, | :47:07. | :47:14. | |
answering all of my questions! Thank you very much. Joining us now, | :47:14. | :47:20. | |
Paul Goodman, from Conservative Home - will Eastleigh have a big | :47:20. | :47:25. | |
effect on David Cameron's leadership? It is a burden on all | :47:25. | :47:29. | |
four parties contesting it. If David Cameron cannot win in | :47:29. | :47:33. | |
Eastleigh, in Hampshire, then the question will be asked, how can he | :47:33. | :47:37. | |
win anywhere? But on the other hand, if the Liberal Democrats cannot win | :47:37. | :47:42. | |
a seat in an area where they are the overwhelming force on the local | :47:42. | :47:52. | |
:47:52. | :47:52. | ||
council, then where will they win? John seem to imply that everybody | :47:52. | :47:59. | |
will lose, but somebody is bound to win. If we look at 1992, the last | :47:59. | :48:05. | |
time the Conservatives had a majority nationally, they had an | :48:05. | :48:08. | |
18,000 Conservative majority in Eastleigh. They have not been able | :48:08. | :48:15. | |
to win the seat since then. In 1997, in the general election, when Chris | :48:15. | :48:22. | |
Huhne became MP, the Lib Dem majority was just 600-700. So it is | :48:22. | :48:25. | |
generally a Lib Dem-Conservative marginal seat. The only thing which | :48:25. | :48:29. | |
is clear is that Labour are well out of it, as confirmed by the | :48:29. | :48:38. | |
bookmakers yesterday. Will it be a verdict on Nick Clegg? Salmon so. | :48:38. | :48:46. | |
By-elections move on very quickly. -- I don't think so. You say that, | :48:46. | :48:50. | |
but one suspects that this by- election will be conducted in the | :48:50. | :48:54. | |
glare of tribal conflict. Both sets of backbenchers want to get at each | :48:54. | :49:00. | |
other. Coalitions are more common in other European countries, where | :49:00. | :49:04. | |
they are more used to the idea that people will agree on some things, | :49:04. | :49:08. | |
disagree and others, and stand against each other in by-elections. | :49:08. | :49:12. | |
People understand that. But if you read the papers, that is not the | :49:12. | :49:21. | |
way it is being characterised. think the backbenchers and some of | :49:21. | :49:24. | |
the front benchers in both of the main parties will be keen to get | :49:24. | :49:29. | |
stuck in. I doubt if David Cameron and Nick Clegg will be so keen, for | :49:29. | :49:32. | |
reasons which have just been put forward. But at the end of the day, | :49:32. | :49:36. | |
I come back to the point that by- elections are nearly always a | :49:37. | :49:41. | |
protest against the government. But the problem here is that there are | :49:41. | :49:45. | |
two parties in government, and the third party in this seat, Labour, | :49:45. | :49:49. | |
are very weak. What about the feeling that Chris Huhne has let | :49:49. | :49:54. | |
people down there, is this something which will help the | :49:54. | :49:59. | |
Conservatives? I come back to the big Lib Dems strength on the local | :49:59. | :50:03. | |
council. One idea going around about the general election is that | :50:03. | :50:08. | |
the Lib Dems will do badly where they have not got an incumbent MP | :50:09. | :50:12. | |
who works very hard, but that they will do better in seats where they | :50:12. | :50:15. | |
have got a strong presence. And they have a big presence in | :50:15. | :50:19. | |
Eastleigh. So, it is a test for them, as well as for David Cameron. | :50:20. | :50:25. | |
Where would you put your money? think it is too close to call. It | :50:25. | :50:28. | |
is a personal situation about what they think about Chris Huhne. On | :50:28. | :50:32. | |
the other hand, the Lib Dems are very good at holding on to seats | :50:32. | :50:36. | |
which they have had for some time. Labour is in the comfortable | :50:36. | :50:43. | |
position of sitting back. Of course, you have said, Labour voters will | :50:43. | :50:47. | |
know that they have not got a chance, and so Lib Dems will be | :50:47. | :50:51. | |
bidding to get the tactical vote from Labour. Will Labour voters in | :50:51. | :50:56. | |
these kind of seats still give their vote to the Lib Dems? It is a | :50:56. | :51:02. | |
tricky one. In seats like this, at the general election, Labour will | :51:02. | :51:05. | |
not want the Conservatives to be picking up all of the seats lost by | :51:05. | :51:15. | |
:51:15. | :51:17. | ||
the Lib Dems. What I said was, it is a question of whether they will | :51:17. | :51:24. | |
or not, we do not know. There is an issue for Ed Miliband. What Polly | :51:24. | :51:28. | |
Toynbee said was right. In these kind of seats, Labour will want to | :51:28. | :51:35. | |
see the voters going for the Lib Dems. However, another argument is | :51:35. | :51:39. | |
that if Miliband cannot get Lib Dem voters to vote Labour, what chance | :51:39. | :51:46. | |
has he got of doing that at the general election? Is this not going | :51:46. | :51:50. | |
to be about the disagreement between the two parties come into | :51:50. | :51:55. | |
the Four? It will be very difficult for Nick Clegg and David Cameron to | :51:55. | :51:58. | |
control it. They will both have to fight hard on the ground to try to | :51:58. | :52:01. | |
win the seat, but neither of them want to see the coalition come | :52:01. | :52:09. | |
apart. How are Nick Clegg going to control his activists and | :52:09. | :52:14. | |
backbenchers? There will be a genuine battle between the Lib Dems | :52:14. | :52:17. | |
and Conservatives, claiming credit for some of the tax changes. The | :52:17. | :52:21. | |
Lib Dems will point out that in Eastleigh, lower-paid people will | :52:22. | :52:27. | |
be paying no tax whatsoever, income tax, compared to before, something | :52:27. | :52:37. | |
:52:37. | :52:38. | ||
like 4,000 people. That sounds good, but actually, the low paid will | :52:38. | :52:43. | |
just be stopping paying a tiny bit of tax. Most of the money went to | :52:43. | :52:51. | |
the top third, according to the IFS. But I think the issue of �600, it | :52:51. | :52:57. | |
is quite a substantial tax cut for people on lower and middle incomes. | :52:57. | :53:00. | |
You are fighting a by-election mostly against the Conservatives | :53:00. | :53:10. | |
here. Thank you both very much. Who would have thought a bag of Bones | :53:10. | :53:15. | |
would have caused such a fuss? The body of Richard III is a | :53:15. | :53:19. | |
historian's dream, but that does not mean politicians cannot get in | :53:19. | :53:24. | |
on the act. Was he a goodie or baddy? Adam reports. Our Richard | :53:24. | :53:31. | |
was a bit of an enigma, a villain to many, hero to some. He ruled | :53:31. | :53:37. | |
between 1483 and 1485, during the decade-long too known as the War Of | :53:37. | :53:41. | |
the Roses. He has been credited with some liberal reforms, | :53:41. | :53:44. | |
including the right to bail and the lifting of restrictions on printing | :53:44. | :53:48. | |
presses. William Shakespeare portrayed him as a jealous | :53:48. | :53:53. | |
Hunchback murderer, who offered his kingdom for a horse. But many | :53:53. | :53:57. | |
historians say that was all just propaganda. His rule was challenged, | :53:57. | :54:02. | |
and he was defeated and killed at the Battle of Bosworth Field, by | :54:02. | :54:07. | |
the army of Henry Tudor, who went on to become King Henry VII. We now | :54:07. | :54:11. | |
know that he has been lying dead under a car park in Leicester. Now, | :54:11. | :54:15. | |
the debate is over whether Richard should have a state funeral, and | :54:15. | :54:25. | |
:54:25. | :54:29. | ||
where he should be buried. We are joined now by three parliamentary | :54:29. | :54:37. | |
villains. John Mann, how and where should he be buried? With dignity, | :54:37. | :54:42. | |
and in the family plot, which was built for Richard I, at the great | :54:42. | :54:47. | |
Prior in Worksop, which was the centre of the Plantagenet Kingdom. | :54:47. | :54:55. | |
Was it? Well, Fotheringhay was where he was born, so I would say | :54:55. | :55:00. | |
that was probably the centre of the Plantagenet Kingdom. I think John | :55:00. | :55:04. | |
has come up with an ingenious solution here. Personally, I would | :55:04. | :55:09. | |
say Leicester is the best place for him to be buried. Absolutely right. | :55:09. | :55:13. | |
Bravo to John for trying this on, but quite frankly, it is ludicrous. | :55:13. | :55:17. | |
He has been in Leicester for 500 years. He was actually buried by | :55:17. | :55:21. | |
the Grey Friars in Leicester. He should be reinterred at the | :55:22. | :55:29. | |
cathedral. Yes, but he was Richard of York. Why not in York? Firstly, | :55:29. | :55:33. | |
there is the procedural issue. After the skeleton was found, the | :55:33. | :55:37. | |
certificate had to be signed, and it had to be stated where the body | :55:37. | :55:45. | |
was found. I have just written a book about Bosworth, and I will | :55:45. | :55:51. | |
have to we write it now. At the Battle of Bosworth, 400 men were | :55:51. | :55:57. | |
requested, and they did not turn up for the battle. So, have they | :55:57. | :56:03. | |
forfeited their right? Yes, I think Richard would not be too pleased to | :56:03. | :56:09. | |
be buried in York. So far, York is winning. I can tell you, Worksop | :56:09. | :56:14. | |
has a big fat zero. That's because the battle of Worksop has not been | :56:14. | :56:22. | |
properly researched. Tell us about it. The last great battle where the | :56:22. | :56:27. | |
Yorkists Fort, the bodies lay there. Not only was Richard I in this | :56:27. | :56:32. | |
great place, but there is a practical reason - a state funeral, | :56:33. | :56:38. | |
we have the spot in the gate house where people can file past, as they | :56:38. | :56:43. | |
did in the time of Richard III, the resting place at the Great priory, | :56:43. | :56:49. | |
in order to see the remains before the burial. Jon Ashworth, does he | :56:49. | :56:54. | |
deserve a state funeral? I have suggested it in the past, although | :56:54. | :56:58. | |
some people have criticised it. In fact he has already had a burial, | :56:58. | :57:02. | |
so there is an argument that it is not necessarily appropriate for a | :57:02. | :57:06. | |
second funeral. It just needs a service of remembrance, which is | :57:06. | :57:09. | |
what Leicester cathedral have been talking about, which seems | :57:09. | :57:12. | |
dignified and suitable. It seems that everybody is fighting over | :57:12. | :57:17. | |
this because Richard III was painted as a monster, one of | :57:17. | :57:22. | |
Shakespeare's favourite villains. The original has been trying to get | :57:22. | :57:29. | |
his reputation changed. Has he been unfairly portrayed? It is a classic | :57:29. | :57:34. | |
case of history being written by the winners. When you go back to | :57:34. | :57:38. | |
the contemporary evidence, before Shakespeare, it was more complex. | :57:38. | :57:42. | |
Obviously, the Prince's disappear in the tower under his watch, we | :57:42. | :57:47. | |
cannot exonerate him over that. But he was a generous king. He looked | :57:47. | :57:51. | |
after the poor, he created the Court of requests, he was quite an | :57:51. | :57:57. | |
unusual king. Where would you have him buried? I am no monarchist, I | :57:57. | :58:04. | |
would put him back in the car park. So you would still have him in | :58:04. | :58:10. | |
Leicester? But should not all kings be buried in Westminster Abbey? | :58:10. | :58:13. | |
personally think that there would have to be a vote in Parliament if | :58:13. | :58:23. | |
:58:23. | :58:23. | ||
it was a state funeral. This is madness! I would like to see the | :58:23. | :58:26. | |
opportunity for the public to pay their last respects, for the coffin | :58:26. | :58:34. | |
to lie in state. Is it really him? I think so, the evidence is all | :58:34. | :58:38. | |
there, the arrow in the back and everything.. We have run out of | :58:38. | :58:44. | |
time, but that will be something for you to debate. That's all for | :58:44. | :58:49. |