28/02/2013 Daily Politics

Afternoon, folks. Welcome to the Afternoon, folks. Welcome to the

Afternoon, folks. Welcome to the Daily Politics. More bad news from

Daily Politics. More bad news from Daily Politics. More bad news from

RBS. It's announced another set of RBS. It's announced another set of

RBS. It's announced another set of losses and they are big. �5.2

losses and they are big. �5.2 losses and they are big. �5.2

billion for last year after paying billion for last year after paying

billion for last year after paying compensation or fines for miss-

compensation or fines for miss- selling payment protection

selling payment protection insurance and manipulating the

insurance and manipulating the insurance and manipulating the

inter-bank lending rate. It's not inter-bank lending rate. It's not

inter-bank lending rate. It's not all doom and gloom though.

all doom and gloom though. all doom and gloom though.

Underlying profits were about �3.5 Underlying profits were about �3.5

Underlying profits were about �3.5 billion. More than twice the

billion. More than twice the billion. More than twice the

previous year. Are we nearly there previous year. Are we nearly there

previous year. Are we nearly there yet? We'll be looking at moves

yet? We'll be looking at moves yet? We'll be looking at moves

afoot to change our motorway afoot to change our motorway

afoot to change our motorway service stations. Dishing the dirt

service stations. Dishing the dirt service stations. Dishing the dirt

on the Commonwealth. We'll be on the Commonwealth. We'll be

on the Commonwealth. We'll be speaking to its former Secretary

speaking to its former Secretary speaking to its former Secretary

General, Don McKinnon. And comedian, General, Don McKinnon. And comedian,

General, Don McKinnon. And comedian, Phil Jupitus will be here,

Phil Jupitus will be here, explaining why coalition government

explaining why coalition government explaining why coalition government

All that in the next hour. And I've All that in the next hour. And I've

All that in the next hour. And I've ditched Andrew, and bagged myself

ditched Andrew, and bagged myself ditched Andrew, and bagged myself

the King of daytime telly, Richard the King of daytime telly, Richard

the King of daytime telly, Richard Madeley. Welcome. Now before we

Madeley. Welcome. Now before we Madeley. Welcome. Now before we

Madeley. Welcome. Now before we move on just a reminder that voting

move on just a reminder that voting move on just a reminder that voting

has begun in the Eastleigh by- has begun in the Eastleigh by-

has begun in the Eastleigh by- election, caused by the resignation

election, caused by the resignation election, caused by the resignation

of the former Liberal Democrat of the former Liberal Democrat

of the former Liberal Democrat Cabinet Minister, Chris Huhne. 14

Cabinet Minister, Chris Huhne. 14 candidates are standing for

candidates are standing for election in the Hampshire

election in the Hampshire election in the Hampshire

constituency. The polls close at constituency. The polls close at

constituency. The polls close at 10pm tonight, with the result

10pm tonight, with the result 10pm tonight, with the result

expected in the early hours of expected in the early hours of

expected in the early hours of Friday morning. We can't talk about

Friday morning. We can't talk about Friday morning. We can't talk about

it for fear of influencing your it for fear of influencing your

it for fear of influencing your it for fear of influencing your

vote. As if we could. So let's kick vote. As if we could. So let's kick

vote. As if we could. So let's kick vote. As if we could. So let's kick

off today with the council tax. A off today with the council tax. A

off today with the council tax. A survey suggests more than 40% of

survey suggests more than 40% of survey suggests more than 40% of

local authorities in England are local authorities in England are

local authorities in England are planning to increase council tax in

planning to increase council tax in planning to increase council tax in

planning to increase council tax in April. Well, this is what the Local

April. Well, this is what the Local Government Minister, Brandon Lewis

Government Minister, Brandon Lewis Government Minister, Brandon Lewis

had to say a little earlier. had to say a little earlier.

had to say a little earlier. Obviously we would like to see

Obviously we would like to see Obviously we would like to see

every council freeze council tax or every council freeze council tax or

every council freeze council tax or every council freeze council tax or

reduce it. I want to focus on those reduce it. I want to focus on those

reduce it. I want to focus on those councils so doing the right thing

councils so doing the right thing for hard-working taxpayers and

for hard-working taxpayers and for hard-working taxpayers and

freezing and reducing the council freezing and reducing the council

freezing and reducing the council tax. Do you have sympathy with

tax. Do you have sympathy with tax. Do you have sympathy with

councils that are saying they have councils that are saying they have

councils that are saying they have councils that are saying they have

to put up council tax? Yes, it's a to put up council tax? Yes, it's a

to put up council tax? Yes, it's a to put up council tax? Yes, it's a

tricky position and it's a bit much tricky position and it's a bit much

tricky position and it's a bit much for Eric Pickles earlier today to

for Eric Pickles earlier today to for Eric Pickles earlier today to

berate them for putting them up berate them for putting them up

berate them for putting them up berate them for putting them up

with in the 2% allowance. He has with in the 2% allowance. He has

with in the 2% allowance. He has given them that 2% allowance. But

given them that 2% allowance. But given them that 2% allowance. But

given them that 2% allowance. But if he gives them 2%, what does he

if he gives them 2%, what does he if he gives them 2%, what does he

if he gives them 2%, what does he expect them to do? Of course you'll

expect them to do? Of course you'll expect them to do? Of course you'll

expect them to do? Of course you'll put it up to 1.9%. He should have

put it up to 1.9%. He should have put it up to 1.9%. He should have

made a complete veto, not given made a complete veto, not given

made a complete veto, not given made a complete veto, not given

them 2%. You're not surprised a lot them 2%. You're not surprised a lot

them 2%. You're not surprised a lot of them are going for higher

of them are going for higher of them are going for higher

council tax bills particularly when council tax bills particularly when

council tax bills particularly when the government is offering more

the government is offering more the government is offering more

the government is offering more cash, not as much as they could put

cash, not as much as they could put cash, not as much as they could put

cash, not as much as they could put up their bills, but if they freeze

up their bills, but if they freeze up their bills, but if they freeze

the council tax? Not remotely the council tax? Not remotely

the council tax? Not remotely surprised. The economy is to the

surprised. The economy is to the surprised. The economy is to the

surprised. The economy is to the old at the moment. They are worried

old at the moment. They are worried old at the moment. They are worried

about keeping up services and it's about keeping up services and it's

about keeping up services and it's about keeping up services and it's

a balancing act. If they go over 2% a balancing act. If they go over 2%

a balancing act. If they go over 2% a balancing act. If they go over 2%

and go to a referendum, the public and go to a referendum, the public

and go to a referendum, the public and go to a referendum, the public

will decide. If they get 1.9%, the will decide. If they get 1.9%, the

will decide. If they get 1.9%, the public will make their decision.

public will make their decision. public will make their decision.

The government will argue everybody The government will argue everybody

The government will argue everybody is struggling. People do not want

is struggling. People do not want is struggling. People do not want

is struggling. People do not want to pay higher council tax bills and

to pay higher council tax bills and to pay higher council tax bills and

many people don't use the services. many people don't use the services.

many people don't use the services. many people don't use the services.

Well then, don't say you can go up Well then, don't say you can go up

Well then, don't say you can go up Well then, don't say you can go up

by 2%. You can't have it both ways. by 2%. You can't have it both ways.

by 2%. You can't have it both ways. To me, it doesn't make any

To me, it doesn't make any To me, it doesn't make any

political sense at all. Would you political sense at all. Would you

political sense at all. Would you political sense at all. Would you

like for them to have a cap? Yes, like for them to have a cap? Yes,

like for them to have a cap? Yes, like for them to have a cap? Yes,

it's the only way to keep it down. it's the only way to keep it down.

it's the only way to keep it down. it's the only way to keep it down.

If you give them the option to put If you give them the option to put

If you give them the option to put If you give them the option to put

up or have a referendum, a lot of up or have a referendum, a lot of

up or have a referendum, a lot of up or have a referendum, a lot of

councils will do that for some tell councils will do that for some tell

councils will do that for some tell them it's frozen and make them

them it's frozen and make them them it's frozen and make them

them it's frozen and make them sorted out. Now it's time for our

sorted out. Now it's time for our sorted out. Now it's time for our

daily quiz. And the question for daily quiz. And the question for

daily quiz. And the question for today, in honour of the former

today, in honour of the former Secretary General of the

Secretary General of the Secretary General of the

Commonwealth, who will be appearing Commonwealth, who will be appearing

Commonwealth, who will be appearing Commonwealth, who will be appearing

later, is: Which of these flags is later, is: Which of these flags is

later, is: Which of these flags is later, is: Which of these flags is

the odd one out? I'm not sure I the odd one out? I'm not sure I

the odd one out? I'm not sure I recognise any of them. Do you

recognise any of them. Do you recognise any of them. Do you

recognise any of the flags, recognise any of the flags,

recognise any of the flags, Richard? Absolutely not.Good, that

Richard? Absolutely not.Good, that Richard? Absolutely not.Good, that

Richard? Absolutely not.Good, that makes two of us then. Towards the

makes two of us then. Towards the makes two of us then. Towards the

makes two of us then. Towards the end of the show Richard or Don

end of the show Richard or Don end of the show Richard or Don

McKinnon will give us the correct McKinnon will give us the correct

McKinnon will give us the correct answer. More likely to be Don

answer. More likely to be Don answer. More likely to be Don

McKinnon, at this rate. Now let's McKinnon, at this rate. Now let's

McKinnon, at this rate. Now let's turn our attention to banks because

turn our attention to banks because turn our attention to banks because

the Royal Bank of Scotland, which the Royal Bank of Scotland, which

the Royal Bank of Scotland, which the Royal Bank of Scotland, which

is 81% owned by the government, has is 81% owned by the government, has

is 81% owned by the government, has released its annual figures this

released its annual figures this released its annual figures this

morning. RBS has reported that it morning. RBS has reported that it

morning. RBS has reported that it made a pre-tax loss of �5.17

made a pre-tax loss of �5.17 made a pre-tax loss of �5.17

billion. It was fined �381 million billion. It was fined �381 million

billion. It was fined �381 million for attempting to fix the inter-

for attempting to fix the inter- for attempting to fix the inter-

bank lending rate, Libor. The bank bank lending rate, Libor. The bank

bank lending rate, Libor. The bank bank lending rate, Libor. The bank

has taken a charge of �700 million has taken a charge of �700 million

has taken a charge of �700 million has taken a charge of �700 million

for money it expects to have to pay for money it expects to have to pay

for money it expects to have to pay out to cover mis-selling interest

out to cover mis-selling interest out to cover mis-selling interest

out to cover mis-selling interest rate swaps. It also took a �450

rate swaps. It also took a �450 rate swaps. It also took a �450

million charge in the last three million charge in the last three

million charge in the last three million charge in the last three

months of the year to cover mis- months of the year to cover mis-

selling of Payment Protection selling of Payment Protection

Insurance, taking its total Insurance, taking its total

Insurance, taking its total provision to �2.2 billion. RBS set

provision to �2.2 billion. RBS set provision to �2.2 billion. RBS set

aside �607 million to pay bonuses aside �607 million to pay bonuses

aside �607 million to pay bonuses aside �607 million to pay bonuses

to its staff. However, it is not to its staff. However, it is not

to its staff. However, it is not all bad news. Underlying these

all bad news. Underlying these all bad news. Underlying these

special charges, RBS reported an special charges, RBS reported an

special charges, RBS reported an operating profit of �3.5 billion.

operating profit of �3.5 billion. operating profit of �3.5 billion.

Here's what the bank's chief Here's what the bank's chief

Here's what the bank's chief executive Stephen Hester had to say

executive Stephen Hester had to say executive Stephen Hester had to say

this morning. I was clear when this morning. I was clear when

this morning. I was clear when arriving at RBS four years ago,

arriving at RBS four years ago, arriving at RBS four years ago,

arriving at RBS four years ago, that there was the need to change

that there was the need to change that there was the need to change

that there was the need to change the way that our people were paid,

the way that our people were paid, the way that our people were paid,

the way that our people were paid, and to align it more closely with

and to align it more closely with and to align it more closely with

and to align it more closely with what we wanted them to do. Part of

what we wanted them to do. Part of what we wanted them to do. Part of

what we wanted them to do. Part of which is profits, but part of it is

which is profits, but part of it is which is profits, but part of it is

serving customers, making sure risk serving customers, making sure risk

serving customers, making sure risk serving customers, making sure risk

serving customers, making sure risk is right and so on. So we have both

is right and so on. So we have both produced pay, to reflect

produced pay, to reflect performance, and fundamentally

performance, and fundamentally performance, and fundamentally

performance, and fundamentally changed the way in which it is

changed the way in which it is aligned. Stephen Hester there.

aligned. Stephen Hester there. aligned. Stephen Hester there.

Meanwhile, David Cameron has said Meanwhile, David Cameron has said

Meanwhile, David Cameron has said he will look carefully at proposed

he will look carefully at proposed he will look carefully at proposed

new EU banking regulations, agreed new EU banking regulations, agreed

new EU banking regulations, agreed in Brussels overnight. The measures,

in Brussels overnight. The measures, in Brussels overnight. The measures,

in Brussels overnight. The measures, which still have to be approved by

which still have to be approved by EU ministers, include capping

EU ministers, include capping EU ministers, include capping

bankers' bonuses at a maximum of bankers' bonuses at a maximum of

bankers' bonuses at a maximum of one year's basic salary. Britain

one year's basic salary. Britain one year's basic salary. Britain

has strongly opposed that idea, has strongly opposed that idea,

has strongly opposed that idea, arguing it will drive away talent

arguing it will drive away talent arguing it will drive away talent

and hamper growth. Here's what the and hamper growth. Here's what the

and hamper growth. Here's what the Prime Minister had to say earlier.

Prime Minister had to say earlier. Prime Minister had to say earlier.

Prime Minister had to say earlier. We do have, in the UK, not every

We do have, in the UK, not every We do have, in the UK, not every

other European country has this, we other European country has this, we

have major international banks have major international banks

have major international banks have major international banks

based in the UK but have branches based in the UK but have branches

based in the UK but have branches and activities all over the world.

and activities all over the world. and activities all over the world.

We need to make sure that We need to make sure that

We need to make sure that regulation put in place in Brussels

regulation put in place in Brussels regulation put in place in Brussels

is flexible enough to allow those is flexible enough to allow those

is flexible enough to allow those banks to continue competing and

banks to continue competing and banks to continue competing and

succeeding while being located in succeeding while being located in

succeeding while being located in succeeding while being located in

the UK. I'm now joined by the the UK. I'm now joined by the

the UK. I'm now joined by the banking analyst Ralph Silva. His

banking analyst Ralph Silva. His banking analyst Ralph Silva. His

banking analyst Ralph Silva. His RBS been turned around? Do we have

RBS been turned around? Do we have RBS been turned around? Do we have

RBS been turned around? Do we have him? Hello?Right, we will try one

him? Hello?Right, we will try one him? Hello?Right, we will try one

him? Hello?Right, we will try one more time and then I will turn to

more time and then I will turn to more time and then I will turn to

more time and then I will turn to my other guests. Can you hear me?

my other guests. Can you hear me? my other guests. Can you hear me?

my other guests. Can you hear me? Yes, I can. Has RBS been turned

Yes, I can. Has RBS been turned Yes, I can. Has RBS been turned

Yes, I can. Has RBS been turned around? Yes, we have to look at

around? Yes, we have to look at around? Yes, we have to look at

around? Yes, we have to look at them in two lights. Prix 2008, the

them in two lights. Prix 2008, the them in two lights. Prix 2008, the

old regime, and those problems are old regime, and those problems are

old regime, and those problems are still there and the current

still there and the current still there and the current

management is still in place but management is still in place but

management is still in place but management is still in place but

they are running the bank in a very they are running the bank in a very

they are running the bank in a very efficient way. They are good people

efficient way. They are good people efficient way. They are good people

efficient way. They are good people doing a good job and customers, by

doing a good job and customers, by doing a good job and customers, by

and large, are happy. Today's RBS and large, are happy. Today's RBS

and large, are happy. Today's RBS and large, are happy. Today's RBS

is the RBS we want for the future. is the RBS we want for the future.

is the RBS we want for the future. is the RBS we want for the future.

Why is there a loss of �5 billion? Why is there a loss of �5 billion?

Why is there a loss of �5 billion? Because they are dealing with the

Because they are dealing with the Because they are dealing with the

past. All these issues which past. All these issues which

past. All these issues which happened prior to the disaster,

happened prior to the disaster, happened prior to the disaster,

2008, and dealing with the disaster 2008, and dealing with the disaster

2008, and dealing with the disaster that was created by the previous

that was created by the previous that was created by the previous

that was created by the previous manager of RBS. I used to hate them

manager of RBS. I used to hate them manager of RBS. I used to hate them

manager of RBS. I used to hate them manager of RBS. I used to hate them

and be so angry at them. A now you and be so angry at them. A now you

and be so angry at them. A now you feel sorry for them because you

feel sorry for them because you feel sorry for them because you

feel sorry for them because you don't think there will ever be a

don't think there will ever be a don't think there will ever be a

don't think there will ever be a stage, even if it's being run more

stage, even if it's being run more stage, even if it's being run more

effectively, where they will be in effectively, where they will be in

effectively, where they will be in effectively, where they will be in

profit? I'm hopeful they will be in profit? I'm hopeful they will be in

profit? I'm hopeful they will be in profit. They are a good

profit. They are a good profit. They are a good

organisation. They need to get organisation. They need to get

organisation. They need to get their debt under control. It has

their debt under control. It has their debt under control. It has

their debt under control. It has their debt under control. It has

taken on too long to do that and I taken on too long to do that and I

taken on too long to do that and I think there's a lot of politics

think there's a lot of politics think there's a lot of politics

think there's a lot of politics involved in that. They need to be

involved in that. They need to be involved in that. They need to be

involved in that. They need to be able to operate how they want so it

able to operate how they want so it able to operate how they want so it

able to operate how they want so it can bring in some money so they can

can bring in some money so they can can bring in some money so they can

can bring in some money so they can give me my tax money back. Right,

give me my tax money back. Right, give me my tax money back. Right,

give me my tax money back. Right, so you're saying we to sell-off the

so you're saying we to sell-off the government stake? Absolutely, we

government stake? Absolutely, we government stake? Absolutely, we

need to let them operate and need to let them operate and

need to let them operate and compete against Barclays Bank and

compete against Barclays Bank and compete against Barclays Bank and

HSBC in a free environment. Not HSBC in a free environment. Not

HSBC in a free environment. Not under the confines of the

under the confines of the government. The problem is,

government. The problem is, government. The problem is,

taxpayers won't want to lose money taxpayers won't want to lose money

taxpayers won't want to lose money taxpayers won't want to lose money

which they will do at the moment if which they will do at the moment if

which they will do at the moment if which they will do at the moment if

they try to sell it off too soon. they try to sell it off too soon.

they try to sell it off too soon. they try to sell it off too soon.

We certainly will not make a lot of We certainly will not make a lot of

We certainly will not make a lot of money, that's true, but I'm not

money, that's true, but I'm not money, that's true, but I'm not

money, that's true, but I'm not happy having a bank the size of RBS

happy having a bank the size of RBS in government hands. The

in government hands. The in government hands. The

implications of being able to buy implications of being able to buy

implications of being able to buy votes by moving money to certain

votes by moving money to certain votes by moving money to certain

areas is something we definitely areas is something we definitely

areas is something we definitely areas is something we definitely

don't want to go into. This too don't want to go into. This too

don't want to go into. This too much danger having the government

much danger having the government much danger having the government

much danger having the government running this bank and I'm sorry we

running this bank and I'm sorry we running this bank and I'm sorry we

running this bank and I'm sorry we won't make the money back but right

won't make the money back but right won't make the money back but right

won't make the money back but right won't make the money back but right

now we have to get rid of it as now we have to get rid of it as

now we have to get rid of it as now we have to get rid of it as

fast as possible. With us now is fast as possible. With us now is

fast as possible. With us now is the Conservative MP and former

the Conservative MP and former the Conservative MP and former

cabinet minister John Redwood. And cabinet minister John Redwood. And

cabinet minister John Redwood. And cabinet minister John Redwood. And

Labour MP Andy Love. He's a member Labour MP Andy Love. He's a member

Labour MP Andy Love. He's a member of the Parliamentary Commission on

of the Parliamentary Commission on of the Parliamentary Commission on

Banking Standards. Welcome to both Banking Standards. Welcome to both

Banking Standards. Welcome to both Banking Standards. Welcome to both

of you. Do you agree with the of you. Do you agree with the

of you. Do you agree with the assessment of the Bank is being

assessment of the Bank is being assessment of the Bank is being

turned around? I think these turned around? I think these

turned around? I think these results are disappointing and it's

results are disappointing and it's results are disappointing and it's

results are disappointing and it's taking too long. I think they ought

taking too long. I think they ought taking too long. I think they ought

to be breaking it up more to be breaking it up more

to be breaking it up more energetically and we have learned

energetically and we have learned energetically and we have learned

today they might get round to today they might get round to

today they might get round to selling part of their American bank

selling part of their American bank selling part of their American bank

selling part of their American bank and I can't see a reason why their

and I can't see a reason why their and I can't see a reason why their

own an American bank and the own an American bank and the

own an American bank and the British taxpayers have to stand

British taxpayers have to stand British taxpayers have to stand

behind it. It's a decent enterprise, behind it. It's a decent enterprise,

behind it. It's a decent enterprise, then get rid of it. Otherwise,

then get rid of it. Otherwise, then get rid of it. Otherwise,

then get rid of it. Otherwise, close it down. I think we also need

close it down. I think we also need close it down. I think we also need

more competition in the British more competition in the British

more competition in the British banking industry. I don't think

banking industry. I don't think your analyst understand the

your analyst understand the disconnection between the British

disconnection between the British disconnection between the British

public and the banking system public and the banking system

public and the banking system generally. The you don't think

generally. The you don't think generally. The you don't think

generally. The you don't think people are happy with RBS might he

people are happy with RBS might he people are happy with RBS might he

said? No, not taxpayers, not said? No, not taxpayers, not

said? No, not taxpayers, not customers, and managers are trying

customers, and managers are trying customers, and managers are trying

customers, and managers are trying to improve it. They inherited a bad

to improve it. They inherited a bad to improve it. They inherited a bad

situation and are trying to make situation and are trying to make

situation and are trying to make situation and are trying to make

sense of it but it's taking a very sense of it but it's taking a very

sense of it but it's taking a very sense of it but it's taking a very

long time. I don't think RBS is a long time. I don't think RBS is a

long time. I don't think RBS is a natural successful big bank company.

natural successful big bank company. natural successful big bank company.

It was spatchcocked together too It was spatchcocked together too

It was spatchcocked together too quickly out of assets to diverse.

quickly out of assets to diverse. quickly out of assets to diverse.

quickly out of assets to diverse. Do you think we get a better deal

Do you think we get a better deal Do you think we get a better deal

Do you think we get a better deal Do you think we get a better deal

if we hang on a bit longer? If they if we hang on a bit longer? If they

if we hang on a bit longer? If they if we hang on a bit longer? If they

hung on for a couple more years, hung on for a couple more years,

hung on for a couple more years, hung on for a couple more years,

due to the taxpayer would get their due to the taxpayer would get their

due to the taxpayer would get their due to the taxpayer would get their

money back? I doubt it. I was money back? I doubt it. I was

money back? I doubt it. I was against the nationalisation in the

against the nationalisation in the against the nationalisation in the

against the nationalisation in the first place and they want it split

first place and they want it split first place and they want it split

first place and they want it split up at the point the crisis hit,

up at the point the crisis hit, up at the point the crisis hit,

because things could have been because things could have been

because things could have been saved early on and things should

saved early on and things should saved early on and things should

saved early on and things should have been closed down early on but

have been closed down early on but have been closed down early on but

have been closed down early on but the government had to step in to

the government had to step in to the government had to step in to

support the important network the support the important network the

support the important network the banks sustained but didn't support

banks sustained but didn't support banks sustained but didn't support

everything else. We need controlled everything else. We need controlled

everything else. We need controlled administration for RBS. What do you

administration for RBS. What do you administration for RBS. What do you

think about selling it off? Early? think about selling it off? Early?

think about selling it off? Early? think about selling it off? Early?

Would you like to see the bank in Would you like to see the bank in

Would you like to see the bank in Would you like to see the bank in

private hands? I think so. I agree private hands? I think so. I agree

private hands? I think so. I agree private hands? I think so. I agree

with a comment made a few moments with a comment made a few moments

with a comment made a few moments with a comment made a few moments

with a comment made a few moments ago, if we sell it off now, we will

ago, if we sell it off now, we will ago, if we sell it off now, we will

ago, if we sell it off now, we will get far less than it cost the

get far less than it cost the get far less than it cost the

government in the time, whereas government in the time, whereas

government in the time, whereas there is every indication to

there is every indication to there is every indication to

there is every indication to believe that if we hold on for a

believe that if we hold on for a believe that if we hold on for a

believe that if we hold on for a period, then we will get our money

period, then we will get our money period, then we will get our money

back. One reason, there is a back. One reason, there is a

back. One reason, there is a divestment strategy may need leaner,

divestment strategy may need leaner, divestment strategy may need leaner,

more profitable. Less of the risks more profitable. Less of the risks

more profitable. Less of the risks involved with the larger RBS.

involved with the larger RBS. involved with the larger RBS.

Secondly, we all assume the economy Secondly, we all assume the economy

Secondly, we all assume the economy Secondly, we all assume the economy

will turn around and, as it does, will turn around and, as it does,

will turn around and, as it does, will turn around and, as it does,

banks will begin to rise. But, of banks will begin to rise. But, of

banks will begin to rise. But, of banks will begin to rise. But, of

course, RBS will be one of those. course, RBS will be one of those.

course, RBS will be one of those. course, RBS will be one of those.

But by holding on to them, then a But by holding on to them, then a

But by holding on to them, then a you're slowing down the process of

you're slowing down the process of you're slowing down the process of

RBS getting back into profit. We RBS getting back into profit. We

RBS getting back into profit. We will see these losses continue year

will see these losses continue year will see these losses continue year

will see these losses continue year after year. No, I don't think we

after year. No, I don't think we after year. No, I don't think we

will. The vast majority of the will. The vast majority of the

will. The vast majority of the losses this year were provisions

losses this year were provisions for payment protection insurance,

for payment protection insurance, for payment protection insurance,

which actually, don't predate as which actually, don't predate as

which actually, don't predate as was suggested by or analyst. They

was suggested by or analyst. They was suggested by or analyst. They

continued well past the changeover continued well past the changeover

continued well past the changeover dates. I do think there are

dates. I do think there are dates. I do think there are

continuing problems at RBS, but continuing problems at RBS, but

continuing problems at RBS, but they have gone through a remarkable

they have gone through a remarkable they have gone through a remarkable

transformation in the last few transformation in the last few

years, they have divested years, they have divested

years, they have divested themselves of the bad assets they

themselves of the bad assets they themselves of the bad assets they

themselves of the bad assets they had, and we need to see this

had, and we need to see this had, and we need to see this

programme through. And then decide programme through. And then decide

programme through. And then decide when the appropriate time is to

when the appropriate time is to when the appropriate time is to

when the appropriate time is to sell. At this point, do you think

sell. At this point, do you think sell. At this point, do you think

was justified to have over �600 was justified to have over �600

was justified to have over �600 million worth of bonuses? I think

million worth of bonuses? I think million worth of bonuses? I think

you are stuck with the bonus you are stuck with the bonus

you are stuck with the bonus you are stuck with the bonus

problem. It makes my blood boil but problem. It makes my blood boil but

problem. It makes my blood boil but it's the way they operate. Boris

it's the way they operate. Boris it's the way they operate. Boris

Johnson spoke out about it this Johnson spoke out about it this

Johnson spoke out about it this morning. He said we should Capper

morning. He said we should Capper morning. He said we should Capper

bankers bonuses for so it sounds bankers bonuses for so it sounds

bankers bonuses for so it sounds all well and good and makes

all well and good and makes all well and good and makes

everybody feel better, but the fact everybody feel better, but the fact

everybody feel better, but the fact everybody feel better, but the fact

of the matter is, bank bonuses are of the matter is, bank bonuses are

of the matter is, bank bonuses are essential in business. It's an ugly

essential in business. It's an ugly essential in business. It's an ugly

side of banking, not at all side of banking, not at all

side of banking, not at all attractive, but a matter of fact.

attractive, but a matter of fact. What is particularly unattractive

What is particularly unattractive What is particularly unattractive

What is particularly unattractive is a registered a loss of over �5

is a registered a loss of over �5 is a registered a loss of over �5

billion, and are paying out bonuses billion, and are paying out bonuses

billion, and are paying out bonuses billion, and are paying out bonuses

at the same time for that the at the same time for that the

public won't understand that. public won't understand that.

public won't understand that. Except, of course, there is the

Except, of course, there is the Except, of course, there is the

ironic situation of an underlying ironic situation of an underlying

ironic situation of an underlying profit, which most people, I did

profit, which most people, I did profit, which most people, I did

appreciated, in terms of justifying appreciated, in terms of justifying

appreciated, in terms of justifying and giving out bonuses, but, John

and giving out bonuses, but, John and giving out bonuses, but, John

Redwood, these people have made his Redwood, these people have made his

underlying profits. I would underlying profits. I would

underlying profits. I would distinguish between people of the

distinguish between people of the distinguish between people of the

top lot of responsibility for the top lot of responsibility for the

top lot of responsibility for the overall results. It's a loss-making

overall results. It's a loss-making overall results. It's a loss-making

bank, state-owned. We need profit bank, state-owned. We need profit

bank, state-owned. We need profit bank, state-owned. We need profit

and we need a return on investment. and we need a return on investment.

and we need a return on investment. People in the individual divisions,

People in the individual divisions, People in the individual divisions,

People in the individual divisions, offered a bonus to make sure they

offered a bonus to make sure they offered a bonus to make sure they

were properly, have a clear legal were properly, have a clear legal

were properly, have a clear legal were properly, have a clear legal

case to be paid a bonus. People case to be paid a bonus. People

case to be paid a bonus. People case to be paid a bonus. People

will find it a double to understand will find it a double to understand

will find it a double to understand that. Do you appreciate that, in

that. Do you appreciate that, in that. Do you appreciate that, in

that. Do you appreciate that, in order for the bank to get back to

order for the bank to get back to order for the bank to get back to

business as usual, people do have business as usual, people do have

business as usual, people do have business as usual, people do have

to be rewarded if they are helping to be rewarded if they are helping

to be rewarded if they are helping it become more profitable? Yes, but

it become more profitable? Yes, but it become more profitable? Yes, but

it become more profitable? Yes, but there needs to be a clear link

there needs to be a clear link there needs to be a clear link

established for the public and the established for the public and the

established for the public and the performance on which to base those

performance on which to base those performance on which to base those

bonuses. When you lose the amounts bonuses. When you lose the amounts

bonuses. When you lose the amounts bonuses. When you lose the amounts

of money RBS have been losing for of money RBS have been losing for

of money RBS have been losing for the last few years, it's very

the last few years, it's very the last few years, it's very

difficult and I understand the difficult and I understand the

difficult and I understand the public don't always understand the

public don't always understand the public don't always understand the

complexities and nuances of this, complexities and nuances of this,

complexities and nuances of this, complexities and nuances of this,

but it is incumbent on RBS and but it is incumbent on RBS and

but it is incumbent on RBS and other banks as well to establish

other banks as well to establish other banks as well to establish

very firmly why these bonuses have very firmly why these bonuses have

very firmly why these bonuses have very firmly why these bonuses have

been paid. If you work at RBS and been paid. If you work at RBS and

been paid. If you work at RBS and you know you are personally

you know you are personally you know you are personally

responsible for the rise in profits, responsible for the rise in profits,

responsible for the rise in profits, and then you're told, for political

and then you're told, for political reasons, public relations reasons,

reasons, public relations reasons, reasons, public relations reasons,

reasons, public relations reasons, you will go to another bank, when

you will go to another bank, when you will go to another bank, when

she couldn't get a bonus. It's she couldn't get a bonus. It's

she couldn't get a bonus. It's important that they explain it but

important that they explain it but important that they explain it but

important that they explain it but also we have to set is the context.

also we have to set is the context. also we have to set is the context.

Of course, they might make money Of course, they might make money

Of course, they might make money Of course, they might make money

this year but what about in future? this year but what about in future?

Long-term performance. We need Long-term performance. We need

proper performance-based incentives. proper performance-based incentives.

proper performance-based incentives. proper performance-based incentives.

We need to make sure that these We need to make sure that these

We need to make sure that these arrangements don't just last for

arrangements don't just last for arrangements don't just last for

arrangements don't just last for one year but 10 years. And we need

one year but 10 years. And we need one year but 10 years. And we need

one year but 10 years. And we need to be firm and suggest you don't

to be firm and suggest you don't to be firm and suggest you don't

to be firm and suggest you don't to be firm and suggest you don't

pay this in cash. You pay it, in my pay this in cash. You pay it, in my

pay this in cash. You pay it, in my pay this in cash. You pay it, in my

view, in that debt, and it should, view, in that debt, and it should,

view, in that debt, and it should, view, in that debt, and it should,

if the bank goes bust, they will if the bank goes bust, they will

if the bank goes bust, they will So what do you say about capping

So what do you say about capping So what do you say about capping

So what do you say about capping bonuses? It is -- is it a good idea?

bonuses? It is -- is it a good idea? bonuses? It is -- is it a good idea?

It is dangerous because the banks It is dangerous because the banks

It is dangerous because the banks will simply increase the base salad

will simply increase the base salad will simply increase the base salad

will simply increase the base salad tail -- salaries so they are more

tail -- salaries so they are more tail -- salaries so they are more

volatile. If there is a downturn volatile. If there is a downturn

volatile. If there is a downturn volatile. If there is a downturn

they won't be able to cut the base they won't be able to cut the base

they won't be able to cut the base they won't be able to cut the base

salary, but they will be able to cut salary, but they will be able to cut

salary, but they will be able to cut salary, but they will be able to cut

bonuses, so it makes them far less bonuses, so it makes them far less

bonuses, so it makes them far less bonuses, so it makes them far less

stable. And then others will go to stable. And then others will go to

stable. And then others will go to centres outside the European Union

centres outside the European Union centres outside the European Union

centres outside the European Union where they don't face those kinds of

where they don't face those kinds of where they don't face those kinds of

restrictions. One of the biggest restrictions. One of the biggest

restrictions. One of the biggest problem still is lending to small

problem still is lending to small problem still is lending to small

problem still is lending to small businesses. I don't know what RBS is

businesses. I don't know what RBS is businesses. I don't know what RBS is

businesses. I don't know what RBS is like in terms of its performance or

like in terms of its performance or like in terms of its performance or

giving credit generally. Has that giving credit generally. Has that

giving credit generally. Has that giving credit generally. Has that

improved? No, it hasn't. In fact, it improved? No, it hasn't. In fact, it

improved? No, it hasn't. In fact, it is getting worse because they are

is getting worse because they are is getting worse because they are

using the opportunity of businesses using the opportunity of businesses

using the opportunity of businesses paying back to increase their

paying back to increase their paying back to increase their

capital. They are under some capital. They are under some

capital. They are under some pressure to increase the level of

pressure to increase the level of pressure to increase the level of

capital. But isn't that the problem capital. But isn't that the problem

capital. But isn't that the problem for the banks dash that the

for the banks dash that the for the banks dash that the

Government has got them between a Government has got them between a

Government has got them between a Government has got them between a

rock and a hard place? They are rock and a hard place? They are

rock and a hard place? They are putting down these measures and

putting down these measures and putting down these measures and

saying, you have got to increase saying, you have got to increase

saying, you have got to increase saying, you have got to increase

your balance sheets but lend more at your balance sheets but lend more at

your balance sheets but lend more at the same time? Many have been

the same time? Many have been the same time? Many have been

saying, then this money because we saying, then this money because we

desperately need an economic desperately need an economic

desperately need an economic recovery. I've been saying for a

recovery. I've been saying for a recovery. I've been saying for a

recovery. I've been saying for a long time that I think you have

long time that I think you have long time that I think you have

long time that I think you have tough regulation near the top of the

tough regulation near the top of the tough regulation near the top of the

tough regulation near the top of the cycle and much weaker rules at the

cycle and much weaker rules at the cycle and much weaker rules at the

bottom of the cycle. And bottom of the cycle. And

bottom of the cycle. And unfortunately we are still at the

unfortunately we are still at the unfortunately we are still at the

unfortunately we are still at the bottom of the cycle. At this point

bottom of the cycle. At this point you should be reasonably

you should be reasonably you should be reasonably

accommodating. The banks have made accommodating. The banks have made

accommodating. The banks have made huge strides in having more

huge strides in having more huge strides in having more

capital. The regulators should now capital. The regulators should now

capital. The regulators should now capital. The regulators should now

say, job done, for a bit, and we say, job done, for a bit, and we

say, job done, for a bit, and we say, job done, for a bit, and we

should go on and then some. Do you should go on and then some. Do you

should go on and then some. Do you should go on and then some. Do you

should go on and then some. Do you see that as a priority? Yes, I do.

see that as a priority? Yes, I do. see that as a priority? Yes, I do.

think the regulator could start by think the regulator could start by

think the regulator could start by telling banks publicly that since we

telling banks publicly that since we telling banks publicly that since we

telling banks publicly that since we are at the low point in the cycle,

are at the low point in the cycle, are at the low point in the cycle,

are at the low point in the cycle, that they are going to be much more

that they are going to be much more that they are going to be much more

lenient in terms of what they lenient in terms of what they

lenient in terms of what they lenient in terms of what they

demand, and then of course we need demand, and then of course we need

demand, and then of course we need to enter into discussions with the

to enter into discussions with the to enter into discussions with the

banks as to exactly what that banks as to exactly what that

banks as to exactly what that means, but undoubtedly, unless that

means, but undoubtedly, unless that means, but undoubtedly, unless that

means, but undoubtedly, unless that happens, it is really hard to see

happens, it is really hard to see happens, it is really hard to see

that banks will increase their that banks will increase their

lending, particularly to small lending, particularly to small

businesses. Gentlemen, thank you. businesses. Gentlemen, thank you.

businesses. Gentlemen, thank you. businesses. Gentlemen, thank you.

businesses. Gentlemen, thank you. Now, it is a bill that has made the

Now, it is a bill that has made the Now, it is a bill that has made the

headlines today in Resource Magazine headlines today in Resource Magazine

headlines today in Resource Magazine and Recycling Today. It should

and Recycling Today. It should and Recycling Today. It should

become law later today. The Scrap become law later today. The Scrap

become law later today. The Scrap become law later today. The Scrap

Metal Dealers Bill is going on. It Metal Dealers Bill is going on. It

Metal Dealers Bill is going on. It is obviously an important bill,

is obviously an important bill, is obviously an important bill,

Richard Ottaway? You have made the Richard Ottaway? You have made the

Richard Ottaway? You have made the Richard Ottaway? You have made the

headlines? Yes, it was made law this headlines? Yes, it was made law this

headlines? Yes, it was made law this morning. And it is an important

morning. And it is an important morning. And it is an important

morning. And it is an important bill, as you rightly say. It is

bill, as you rightly say. It is bill, as you rightly say. It is

addressing a serious problem. It is addressing a serious problem. It is

addressing a serious problem. It is addressing a serious problem. It is

not just petty crime or a victimless not just petty crime or a victimless

not just petty crime or a victimless not just petty crime or a victimless

not just petty crime or a victimless crime. It is a crime that has a big

crime. It is a crime that has a big crime. It is a crime that has a big

crime. It is a crime that has a big pat on society so it is important

pat on society so it is important pat on society so it is important

pat on society so it is important legislation. -- a big impact. We are

legislation. -- a big impact. We are legislation. -- a big impact. We are

not just talking about metal left not just talking about metal left

not just talking about metal left outside people's houses. We are

outside people's houses. We are outside people's houses. We are

talking major theft? The estimate is talking major theft? The estimate is

talking major theft? The estimate is talking major theft? The estimate is

that nationwide it is -- costing the that nationwide it is -- costing the

that nationwide it is -- costing the economy quarter of �1 billion a

economy quarter of �1 billion a economy quarter of �1 billion a

year, from church groups to year, from church groups to

telecommunications cables and then telecommunications cables and then

telecommunications cables and then telecommunications cables and then

plaques in memorials. It is a lot of plaques in memorials. It is a lot of

plaques in memorials. It is a lot of plaques in memorials. It is a lot of

money involved and indeed a lot of money involved and indeed a lot of

money involved and indeed a lot of lost revenue to the Treasury.

lost revenue to the Treasury. lost revenue to the Treasury.

lost revenue to the Treasury. will you so interested in it? Apart

will you so interested in it? Apart will you so interested in it? Apart

will you so interested in it? Apart from the fact that it is costing the

from the fact that it is costing the from the fact that it is costing the

from the fact that it is costing the economy so much money? -- why were

economy so much money? -- why were economy so much money? -- why were

economy so much money? -- why were you? Well, bits of lead from the

you? Well, bits of lead from the you? Well, bits of lead from the

you? Well, bits of lead from the parish roof where I live with stolen

parish roof where I live with stolen parish roof where I live with stolen

and the damage to the organ and the damage to the organ

and the damage to the organ underneath the roof cost over

underneath the roof cost over underneath the roof cost over

underneath the roof cost over �100,000, so I pledged in the last

�100,000, so I pledged in the last �100,000, so I pledged in the last

�100,000, so I pledged in the last election that if I had a chance, I

election that if I had a chance, I election that if I had a chance, I

election that if I had a chance, I would do my best to reform in the

would do my best to reform in the would do my best to reform in the

would do my best to reform in the Lords and I like to think I have

Lords and I like to think I have Lords and I like to think I have

Lords and I like to think I have done that in my pledge this morning.

done that in my pledge this morning. done that in my pledge this morning.

done that in my pledge this morning. How do people get away with stealing

How do people get away with stealing How do people get away with stealing

How do people get away with stealing this? Things like a roof?It is a

this? Things like a roof?It is a this? Things like a roof?It is a

fairly lawless area. There have been fairly lawless area. There have been

fairly lawless area. There have been many rogue scrap metal dealers, to

many rogue scrap metal dealers, to many rogue scrap metal dealers, to

many rogue scrap metal dealers, to be honest. We have had to make it

be honest. We have had to make it be honest. We have had to make it

difficult by saying cash can't be difficult by saying cash can't be

difficult by saying cash can't be difficult by saying cash can't be

used for deals and records have to used for deals and records have to

used for deals and records have to be made. Where we've actually done

be made. Where we've actually done be made. Where we've actually done

this on voluntary basis around the this on voluntary basis around the

this on voluntary basis around the country through the police, who have

country through the police, who have country through the police, who have

been operating voluntary codes, we been operating voluntary codes, we

been operating voluntary codes, we been operating voluntary codes, we

been operating voluntary codes, we have seen a 40% fall and more in the

have seen a 40% fall and more in the have seen a 40% fall and more in the

have seen a 40% fall and more in the level of metal theft and I like to

level of metal theft and I like to level of metal theft and I like to

level of metal theft and I like to think that figure will go up quite

think that figure will go up quite think that figure will go up quite

dramatically later this year when my dramatically later this year when my

dramatically later this year when my dramatically later this year when my

act comes into effect. Thank you and act comes into effect. Thank you and

act comes into effect. Thank you and enjoy being on the headlines today!

enjoy being on the headlines today! enjoy being on the headlines today!

Figures this morning reveal net Figures this morning reveal net

Figures this morning reveal net Figures this morning reveal net

migration fell by a third to 163,000 migration fell by a third to 163,000

migration fell by a third to 163,000 migration fell by a third to 163,000

to the 12 months in June. The to the 12 months in June. The

to the 12 months in June. The Government has pledged to reduce

Government has pledged to reduce Government has pledged to reduce

Government has pledged to reduce that to the tens of thousands by

that to the tens of thousands by that to the tens of thousands by

2015 and showed its immigration 2015 and showed its immigration

2015 and showed its immigration policy is working. The figures show

policy is working. The figures show policy is working. The figures show

a significant decrease from people a significant decrease from people

arriving from the Commonwealth arriving from the Commonwealth

countries, such as Bangladesh, countries, such as Bangladesh,

Pakistan, India, Botswana and Pakistan, India, Botswana and

Pakistan, India, Botswana and elsewhere. We are joined by Mark

elsewhere. We are joined by Mark elsewhere. We are joined by Mark

Harper. Why have the numbers come Harper. Why have the numbers come

Harper. Why have the numbers come down so dramatically? They are

down so dramatically? They are basically reflecting the policy

basically reflecting the policy basically reflecting the policy

changes we have made. The overall changes we have made. The overall

changes we have made. The overall changes we have made. The overall

number of students is down while we number of students is down while we

have protected our university have protected our university

have protected our university have protected our university

places, so the number of those is up places, so the number of those is up

places, so the number of those is up places, so the number of those is up

by 3%. We have seen fewer people by 3%. We have seen fewer people

by 3%. We have seen fewer people by 3%. We have seen fewer people

coming to do unskilled work but more coming to do unskilled work but more

coming to do unskilled work but more coming to do unskilled work but more

people coming to do skilled work, so people coming to do skilled work, so

people coming to do skilled work, so bringing in benefit to the country,

bringing in benefit to the country, bringing in benefit to the country,

and a reduction in people applying and a reduction in people applying

and a reduction in people applying and a reduction in people applying

for family visas. So we are getting for family visas. So we are getting

for family visas. So we are getting a more selective system, so fewer

a more selective system, so fewer a more selective system, so fewer

people overall but the right people people overall but the right people

people overall but the right people coming to add youngster the country.

coming to add youngster the country. coming to add youngster the country.

The best and the brightest from The best and the brightest from

The best and the brightest from around the world, as the Prime

around the world, as the Prime around the world, as the Prime

Minister said recently. But the Minister said recently. But the

Minister said recently. But the Prime Minister said Britain was open

Prime Minister said Britain was open Prime Minister said Britain was open

for business. What is the change for business. What is the change

for business. What is the change that means we are getting those

that means we are getting those that means we are getting those

skilled people without the unskilled skilled people without the unskilled

skilled people without the unskilled ones? We have very good performance

ones? We have very good performance ones? We have very good performance

for people coming on business and for people coming on business and

for people coming on business and tourism visits. We have a good

tourism visits. We have a good tourism visits. We have a good

system with company transfers, which system with company transfers, which

system with company transfers, which is where companies can use their

is where companies can use their is where companies can use their

employees around the world. Many employees around the world. Many

employees around the world. Many employees around the world. Many

have said it is the best system in have said it is the best system in

have said it is the best system in have said it is the best system in

the world. And many are coming for the world. And many are coming for

the world. And many are coming for skilled work and we aren't anywhere

skilled work and we aren't anywhere skilled work and we aren't anywhere

skilled work and we aren't anywhere near a on that so there hasn't been

near a on that so there hasn't been near a on that so there hasn't been

anybody prevented coming here to do anybody prevented coming here to do

anybody prevented coming here to do skilled work the United Kingdom.

skilled work the United Kingdom. skilled work the United Kingdom.

skilled work the United Kingdom. is not getting in now who was

is not getting in now who was is not getting in now who was

is not getting in now who was getting in a couple of years ago?

getting in a couple of years ago? getting in a couple of years ago?

getting in a couple of years ago? Who is being turned away? One of the

Who is being turned away? One of the Who is being turned away? One of the

big reductions is people coming in big reductions is people coming in

big reductions is people coming in through the student route who aren't

through the student route who aren't through the student route who aren't

through the student route who aren't students. So people come in a couple

students. So people come in a couple students. So people come in a couple

of years ago either coming to of years ago either coming to

of years ago either coming to institutions to ostensibly study but

institutions to ostensibly study but institutions to ostensibly study but

they weren't studying. They were they weren't studying. They were

they weren't studying. They were they weren't studying. They were

they weren't studying. They were coming as a way to work and we have

coming as a way to work and we have coming as a way to work and we have

coming as a way to work and we have rooted out that abuse, which is why

rooted out that abuse, which is why rooted out that abuse, which is why

we have seen the overall student we have seen the overall student

we have seen the overall student numbers fall while universities are

numbers fall while universities are still seeing more international

still seeing more international still seeing more international

students. The second is those students. The second is those

students. The second is those staying after their studies. We now

staying after their studies. We now staying after their studies. We now

staying after their studies. We now say if you are a university student

say if you are a university student say if you are a university student

say if you are a university student you can stay to take a graduate

you can stay to take a graduate you can stay to take a graduate

level drop pay more than �20,000. level drop pay more than �20,000.

level drop pay more than �20,000. level drop pay more than �20,000.

What was happening a few years ago What was happening a few years ago

What was happening a few years ago was that many people were staying

was that many people were staying was that many people were staying

and they were only getting unskilled and they were only getting unskilled

and they were only getting unskilled work. They were going on benefits.

work. They were going on benefits. work. They were going on benefits.

work. They were going on benefits. We have stop that so it is fewer

We have stop that so it is fewer We have stop that so it is fewer

people overall but the right people. people overall but the right people.

people overall but the right people. people overall but the right people.

Except a think tank has said this Except a think tank has said this

Except a think tank has said this morning that the reduction today is

morning that the reduction today is morning that the reduction today is

due to falling numbers of due to falling numbers of

international students which will international students which will

international students which will international students which will

only have a short-term effect on net only have a short-term effect on net

only have a short-term effect on net migration, so actually the figures

migration, so actually the figures migration, so actually the figures

migration, so actually the figures will go back up. Well, no, if you

will go back up. Well, no, if you will go back up. Well, no, if you

look at the figures they publish, look at the figures they publish,

look at the figures they publish, those longer ago than our up-to-date

those longer ago than our up-to-date those longer ago than our up-to-date

Visa statistics. And they say the Visa statistics. And they say the

Visa statistics. And they say the number of visas we are granting,

number of visas we are granting, number of visas we are granting,

which show the statistics of which show the statistics of

which show the statistics of migrants, are continuing to fall, so

migrants, are continuing to fall, so migrants, are continuing to fall, so

the direction of travel is still the direction of travel is still

the direction of travel is still heading towards us being able to

heading towards us being able to heading towards us being able to

fulfil our promise of getting net fulfil our promise of getting net

fulfil our promise of getting net migration down towards the tens of

migration down towards the tens of migration down towards the tens of

thousands by the election. Can you thousands by the election. Can you

thousands by the election. Can you thousands by the election. Can you

guarantee you will hit that? We have guarantee you will hit that? We have

guarantee you will hit that? We have guarantee you will hit that? We have

reduced the total, two years in, by reduced the total, two years in, by

reduced the total, two years in, by reduced the total, two years in, by

a third, and we have three more a third, and we have three more

a third, and we have three more a third, and we have three more

years of the Parliament to go, so we years of the Parliament to go, so we

years of the Parliament to go, so we are absolutely on track. You have

are absolutely on track. You have are absolutely on track. You have

talked about the figures you can talked about the figures you can

talked about the figures you can talked about the figures you can

affect but people talk about it the affect but people talk about it the

affect but people talk about it the fact that the majority of people

fact that the majority of people fact that the majority of people

coming in from other EU countries. coming in from other EU countries.

coming in from other EU countries. coming in from other EU countries.

That is not true. 55% of people That is not true. 55% of people

That is not true. 55% of people coming to this country are coming

coming to this country are coming coming to this country are coming

coming to this country are coming from outside the EU, where we have

from outside the EU, where we have from outside the EU, where we have

complete control over whether we let complete control over whether we let

complete control over whether we let complete control over whether we let

them in. 30% are coming from the them in. 30% are coming from the

them in. 30% are coming from the EU... Have those numbers come down

EU... Have those numbers come down EU... Have those numbers come down

as well? Well, those numbers are as well? Well, those numbers are

as well? Well, those numbers are flat and some Brits returning from

flat and some Brits returning from flat and some Brits returning from

flat and some Brits returning from abroad. The EU number is both only a

abroad. The EU number is both only a abroad. The EU number is both only a

third and it's actually fairly third and it's actually fairly

third and it's actually fairly third and it's actually fairly

stable. It is balanced out by the stable. It is balanced out by the

stable. It is balanced out by the number of British people leaving.

number of British people leaving. number of British people leaving.

Cynics might argue more people from Cynics might argue more people from

Cynics might argue more people from Cynics might argue more people from

places like Poland are now going to places like Poland are now going to

places like Poland are now going to Germany because the economy is flat

Germany because the economy is flat Germany because the economy is flat

Germany because the economy is flat here now. Well, I think Labour let

here now. Well, I think Labour let here now. Well, I think Labour let

the Eastern European migration get the Eastern European migration get

the Eastern European migration get out of control, even during their

out of control, even during their out of control, even during their

time of office, when 80% of time of office, when 80% of

time of office, when 80% of migration wizard from outside the

migration wizard from outside the migration wizard from outside the

migration wizard from outside the EU, which is when we had complete

EU, which is when we had complete EU, which is when we had complete

EU, which is when we had complete control as long as we have firm

control as long as we have firm control as long as we have firm

control as long as we have firm policies like the ones we set out.

policies like the ones we set out. policies like the ones we set out.

-- migration was from. Do you -- migration was from. Do you

-- migration was from. Do you support this? Are there any

support this? Are there any support this? Are there any

corresponding figures that show the corresponding figures that show the

corresponding figures that show the numbers and the draining resources?

numbers and the draining resources? numbers and the draining resources?

Well, last week the interesting Well, last week the interesting

Well, last week the interesting thing about the numbers produced

thing about the numbers produced thing about the numbers produced

showed that 90% of British citizens. showed that 90% of British citizens.

showed that 90% of British citizens. showed that 90% of British citizens.

Where we saw quite a lot of people Where we saw quite a lot of people

Where we saw quite a lot of people getting into work previously who

getting into work previously who getting into work previously who

were British citizens, more of the were British citizens, more of the

were British citizens, more of the were British citizens, more of the

job is now being created in Britain job is now being created in Britain

job is now being created in Britain job is now being created in Britain

and new people going into work are and new people going into work are

and new people going into work are British citizens, so I think the

British citizens, so I think the British citizens, so I think the

changes we're making in the benefit changes we're making in the benefit

system combined with migration system combined with migration

system combined with migration policies are giving British people

policies are giving British people policies are giving British people

more of an opportunity. more of an opportunity.

more of an opportunity. personally I don't see anything

personally I don't see anything personally I don't see anything

wrong with a good, fair, democratic wrong with a good, fair, democratic

wrong with a good, fair, democratic wrong with a good, fair, democratic

filter. I want to make sure we get filter. I want to make sure we get

filter. I want to make sure we get the right people coming to the

the right people coming to the country because obviously

country because obviously country because obviously

immigration is crucial to any immigration is crucial to any

immigration is crucial to any country, especially a one developing

country, especially a one developing country, especially a one developing

country, especially a one developing country, especially a one developing

like ours. But it has to be a good like ours. But it has to be a good

like ours. But it has to be a good thing. But will it change with

thing. But will it change with thing. But will it change with

Bulgaria and Rumania towards the end Bulgaria and Rumania towards the end

Bulgaria and Rumania towards the end of the year? We won't expected

of the year? We won't expected of the year? We won't expected

forecasts. Because we heard from forecasts. Because we heard from

forecasts. Because we heard from forecasts. Because we heard from

Michael has time who said, it is Michael has time who said, it is

Michael has time who said, it is pointless because you can't tell.

pointless because you can't tell. pointless because you can't tell.

Yes, exactly. We are looking across Yes, exactly. We are looking across

Yes, exactly. We are looking across government in a committee I am

government in a committee I am government in a committee I am

chairing at all the access to chairing at all the access to

chairing at all the access to benefits... Where are you getting

benefits... Where are you getting benefits... Where are you getting

benefits... Where are you getting that? Because it still seems you can

that? Because it still seems you can that? Because it still seems you can

get those immediately. We look at get those immediately. We look at

get those immediately. We look at what we offer competitive other

what we offer competitive other what we offer competitive other

what we offer competitive other people and that we are not a soft

people and that we are not a soft people and that we are not a soft

touch, and the Prime Minister said touch, and the Prime Minister said

touch, and the Prime Minister said that again yesterday. So that work

that again yesterday. So that work that again yesterday. So that work

that again yesterday. So that work is underway, putting a lot of work

is underway, putting a lot of work is underway, putting a lot of work

across government. You have the across government. You have the

across government. You have the across government. You have the

Secretary of State for health say he Secretary of State for health say he

Secretary of State for health say he Secretary of State for health say he

was looking at things as well this was looking at things as well this

was looking at things as well this was looking at things as well this

week, making sure we cannot -- do week, making sure we cannot -- do

week, making sure we cannot -- do not get health tourists. What can

not get health tourists. What can not get health tourists. What can

not get health tourists. What can you do on health benefits? You say

you do on health benefits? You say you do on health benefits? You say

you do on health benefits? You say that you have to give what you have

that you have to give what you have that you have to give what you have

to give. There are other countries to give. There are other countries

to give. There are other countries with concerns about free movement so

with concerns about free movement so with concerns about free movement so

with concerns about free movement so we have an action plan and other

we have an action plan and other we have an action plan and other

countries who are concerned about countries who are concerned about

countries who are concerned about countries who are concerned about

that. When we have things to say we that. When we have things to say we

that. When we have things to say we will save them to Parliament first

will save them to Parliament first will save them to Parliament first

will save them to Parliament first and then I will be delighted to come

and then I will be delighted to come and then I will be delighted to come

and then I will be delighted to come on your program and say them to you.

on your program and say them to you. on your program and say them to you.

on your program and say them to you. That is most kind of you, but you

That is most kind of you, but you That is most kind of you, but you

That is most kind of you, but you won't be able to change the basics,

won't be able to change the basics, won't be able to change the basics,

won't be able to change the basics, the statute written into the EU?

the statute written into the EU? the statute written into the EU?

the statute written into the EU? are doing that work at the moment,

are doing that work at the moment, are doing that work at the moment,

looking at how we compare to looking at how we compare to

looking at how we compare to European partners and making sure we

European partners and making sure we European partners and making sure we

are tougher and more restrictive so are tougher and more restrictive so

are tougher and more restrictive so are tougher and more restrictive so

people come here to work and to people come here to work and to

people come here to work and to contribute. They don't come here to

contribute. They don't come here to contribute. They don't come here to

take. What is your feeling about take. What is your feeling about

take. What is your feeling about migrants coming from Romania and

migrants coming from Romania and migrants coming from Romania and

migrants coming from Romania and Bulgaria? Is it a concern? I don't

Bulgaria? Is it a concern? I don't Bulgaria? Is it a concern? I don't

think it matters where people are think it matters where people are

think it matters where people are think it matters where people are

coming from but it is a slippery coming from but it is a slippery

coming from but it is a slippery slope. The question is, are they

slope. The question is, are they slope. The question is, are they

slope. The question is, are they welcome, do they fit in? Do they

welcome, do they fit in? Do they have something to contribute,

have something to contribute, have something to contribute,

have something to contribute, whether it is the education and the

whether it is the education and the whether it is the education and the

whether it is the education and the workplace. I don't really care if a

workplace. I don't really care if a workplace. I don't really care if a

percentage comes from Bulgaria or percentage comes from Bulgaria or

percentage comes from Bulgaria or anywhere else. Thank you. We look

anywhere else. Thank you. We look anywhere else. Thank you. We look

anywhere else. Thank you. We look forward to you coming back when you

forward to you coming back when you forward to you coming back when you

have something to say about the benefits system.

benefits system. benefits system.

When you think of motorway service When you think of motorway service

When you think of motorway service stations, what you think of? Soggy

stations, what you think of? Soggy stations, what you think of? Soggy

chips, queues at the toilets, chips, queues at the toilets,

chips, queues at the toilets, constant" are we there yet?". Will

constant" are we there yet?". Will constant" are we there yet?". Will

it be a every second interchange it be a every second interchange

it be a every second interchange with the changes proposed to them.

with the changes proposed to them. with the changes proposed to them.

with the changes proposed to them. We took to the road to find out

We are going to peek under the We are going to peek under the

We are going to peek under the bonnet of motorway service station

bonnet of motorway service station bonnet of motorway service station

regulation. They are obliged to be regulation. They are obliged to be

regulation. They are obliged to be regulation. They are obliged to be

open 24 hours a day, every single open 24 hours a day, every single

open 24 hours a day, every single day of the year, including

day of the year, including day of the year, including

Christmas. They have to offer two Christmas. They have to offer two

Christmas. They have to offer two hours of free parking. To be

hours of free parking. To be hours of free parking. To be

eligible for a road sign saying eligible for a road sign saying

eligible for a road sign saying eligible for a road sign saying

you've got a picnic area, you have you've got a picnic area, you have

you've got a picnic area, you have to have 10 tables seating six

to have 10 tables seating six to have 10 tables seating six

people each. The maximum size of people each. The maximum size of

people each. The maximum size of the retail area is 500 square

the retail area is 500 square the retail area is 500 square

the retail area is 500 square metres. If you have a bridge over

metres. If you have a bridge over metres. If you have a bridge over

metres. If you have a bridge over the motorway, you can't have a shop

the motorway, you can't have a shop the motorway, you can't have a shop

the motorway, you can't have a shop on it. And the toilets have to be

on it. And the toilets have to be on it. And the toilets have to be

free. David has quite literally free. David has quite literally

free. David has quite literally free. David has quite literally

written the book on the subject. He written the book on the subject. He

written the book on the subject. He written the book on the subject. He

says some of the rules date back to says some of the rules date back to

says some of the rules date back to the building of the very first

the building of the very first the building of the very first

service stations, which came in the service stations, which came in the

service stations, which came in the 1950s and Sixties. The regulations

1950s and Sixties. The regulations 1950s and Sixties. The regulations

for areas are for refreshing and for areas are for refreshing and

for areas are for refreshing and refuelling but not to become

refuelling but not to become refuelling but not to become

destinations in their own right. destinations in their own right.

destinations in their own right. destinations in their own right.

There would not be tailbacks on the There would not be tailbacks on the

There would not be tailbacks on the motorway for people queuing up to

motorway for people queuing up to motorway for people queuing up to

motorway for people queuing up to visit the services. Now a load of

visit the services. Now a load of regulations regarding building by

regulations regarding building by regulations regarding building by

regulations regarding building by the side of the motorway are under

the side of the motorway are under the side of the motorway are under

review as the government seeks to review as the government seeks to

review as the government seeks to turn the road network into an

turn the road network into an turn the road network into an

engine of economic growth. The engine of economic growth. The

engine of economic growth. The Department for Transport is looking

Department for Transport is looking Department for Transport is looking

Department for Transport is looking at ripping up the rules which say

at ripping up the rules which say at ripping up the rules which say

at ripping up the rules which say there has to be a minimum of 12

there has to be a minimum of 12 there has to be a minimum of 12

miles between each service station. miles between each service station.

miles between each service station. miles between each service station.

The idea being, more of them will The idea being, more of them will

arrive, bringing increased arrive, bringing increased

arrive, bringing increased competition and more choice. An

competition and more choice. An competition and more choice. An

competition and more choice. An competition and more choice. An

idea stuck in a bit of a tail back idea stuck in a bit of a tail back

idea stuck in a bit of a tail back because John Major first called for

because John Major first called for because John Major first called for

because John Major first called for it in 1992. Next services, 54 miles,

it in 1992. Next services, 54 miles, it in 1992. Next services, 54 miles,

when your children can't make 10. when your children can't make 10.

when your children can't make 10. when your children can't make 10.

They have got to go and so those They have got to go and so those

They have got to go and so those They have got to go and so those

rules have got to go. It's been rules have got to go. It's been

rules have got to go. It's been rules have got to go. It's been

applauded by the AA, who reckon it applauded by the AA, who reckon it

applauded by the AA, who reckon it may mean more petrol stations which

may mean more petrol stations which may mean more petrol stations which

may mean more petrol stations which could bring down the cost of fuel

could bring down the cost of fuel could bring down the cost of fuel

on the motorway. But local on the motorway. But local

on the motorway. But local authorities will still have the

authorities will still have the authorities will still have the

power to refuse planning permission. power to refuse planning permission.

power to refuse planning permission. Something the owners of this place

Something the owners of this place Something the owners of this place

Something the owners of this place know all about because it took 19

know all about because it took 19 know all about because it took 19

years and five public inquiries years and five public inquiries

years and five public inquiries before it opened for business.

before it opened for business. before it opened for business.

Don't worry, the toilets will still Don't worry, the toilets will still

Don't worry, the toilets will still be free. I'm hugely relieved about

be free. I'm hugely relieved about be free. I'm hugely relieved about

be free. I'm hugely relieved about that. And we're joined now by Chris

that. And we're joined now by Chris Goffey, a motoring journalist.

Goffey, a motoring journalist. Goffey, a motoring journalist.

Welcome. Do we need more service Welcome. Do we need more service

Welcome. Do we need more service stations? I think so. In France,

stations? I think so. In France, stations? I think so. In France,

while the major service stations while the major service stations

while the major service stations are well spaced, there are little

are well spaced, there are little are well spaced, there are little

are well spaced, there are little are well spaced, there are little

pots now when Ben and you can go to pots now when Ben and you can go to

pots now when Ben and you can go to pots now when Ben and you can go to

the loo and Parker and eat your the loo and Parker and eat your

the loo and Parker and eat your sandwich -- now and then. Those

sandwich -- now and then. Those sandwich -- now and then. Those

more regular stops are welcome and more regular stops are welcome and

more regular stops are welcome and more regular stops are welcome and

I would like to see more service I would like to see more service

I would like to see more service areas, that's for sure. John major

areas, that's for sure. John major areas, that's for sure. John major

highlight the problem in 1992. Why highlight the problem in 1992. Why

highlight the problem in 1992. Why highlight the problem in 1992. Why

has it been so slow? The iron grasp has it been so slow? The iron grasp

has it been so slow? The iron grasp of bureaucracy has been on the

of bureaucracy has been on the of bureaucracy has been on the

motorway service areas and, to be motorway service areas and, to be

motorway service areas and, to be motorway service areas and, to be

fair, they have done a good job in fair, they have done a good job in

fair, they have done a good job in some areas. In the USA, the

some areas. In the USA, the some areas. In the USA, the

advertising slogans on a huge masts, advertising slogans on a huge masts,

advertising slogans on a huge masts, 10 miles before each stop, are

10 miles before each stop, are 10 miles before each stop, are

absolutely horrendous now. We have absolutely horrendous now. We have

absolutely horrendous now. We have absolutely horrendous now. We have

avoided all that, and I hope we avoided all that, and I hope we

avoided all that, and I hope we will continue to avoid it, however

will continue to avoid it, however more stops, obviously more