01/03/2013 Daily Politics


01/03/2013

Andrew Neil and Jo Coburn discuss the result of the Eastleigh by-election, with guests including the UKIP leader Nigel Farage.


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Transcript


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Afternoon. Welcome to the Daily Politics. I hereby declare that

:00:47.:00:51.

Michael Douglas Thornton is duly elected member of Parliament for

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Eastleigh. Thank you. The Eastleigh is beastly for David Cameron, the

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Liberal Democrats hold the constituency, the Conservatives are

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pushed into a humiliating third place. UKIP come second recording

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their best ever by-election performance picking up almost a

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third of the vote and proving they are a serious threat to the

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Conservativeings.. 6 There is no Southern Comfort for Ed Milliband

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as Labour fails to increase its share of the vote, coming a poor

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fourth. We will bring you the reaction to a vintage style by-

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election. All that coming up, with us for the

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:01:44.:01:46.

duration today, Gabby hins live, political editor at large. Andrew

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Pierce, consultant editor at the Mail. Who consults you? I consult

:01:51.:01:56.

the editor. To find out what to do? Yes. That is how you keep your job.

:01:56.:02:00.

Welcome to the programme. It was the result David Cameron was dread,

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there was a time only a few weeks ago when the Tories thought they

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could win Eastleigh. They didn't. Worse, they came third. It the sort

:02:08.:02:12.

of seat the Tories have to win if they are ever to win an overall

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majority in the common, so this morning there was nothing left to

:02:15.:02:21.

do, but to wheel out the brave face. It's a disappointing result for the

:02:21.:02:25.

Conservative Party, but it is clear in mid-term by-election, people

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want to register a protest, but I am confident that at the general

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election we can bin these people -- win those people back bishop

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demonstrating we are delivering for everyone who wants to work hard and

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get on. We are devoting most of the programme to discussion of last

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night's result. So for now one thought from both of you about the

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significance. The moment for you? It is the moment we learned yet

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again how much people hate mainstream politicians, not just

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because you have the UKIP surge, people are fed up with both parties

:02:56.:03:00.

of Government and opposition, how low an opinion of politicians do

:03:00.:03:03.

you have to have that your local MP is headed to jail and that doesn't

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put you off voting for the party? It is an interesting thought. Is it

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going to be, as the Liberal Democrats would like it to be, lots,

:03:12.:03:16.

hundreds of local by-elections, at the next general election, rather

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than the national view? That is what they will hope. I suspect it

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won't work like that, this was a classic Liberal Democrat victory.

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For the Conservatives say it disaster, because they, it shows

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they have massively failed to connect with their grass roots

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supporter, their core supporters have been alienated by David

:03:38.:03:43.

Cameron and they staid at home or voted for UKIP. UKIP pose a danger

:03:44.:03:51.

to the Tory party as the SDP did to the Labour party. Not a great night

:03:51.:03:56.

for Labour. You can't come fourth and that is a great night. A lot of

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voters very fed up with the government, looking for someone to

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blame. Looking for someone to register a protest and they didn't

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choose Labour, that is worrying for Ed Miliband. You wouldn't want to

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be Mill's strategist from last nights. Anyone's from last night.

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There is no chance of that. Now, at the start of this campaign, as I

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said the Tories thought they were in with a chance they threw the

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kitchen sink into the constituency, but somehow the Tory campaign never

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took off, what did take off was UKIP, which surged through taking

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votes from the Liberal Democrats and from the Tories and after three

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week, although not quite enough of a surge to win, it was enough to

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throw the Tories into third place. Tell us more. Eastleigh son the

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Conservative's list of target seats they must win in 2015 to form a

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imagine si Government. Last night's by-election results make grim

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reading for David Cameron. The qifrts optimistic at the start.

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Liberal Democrat minister Chris Huhne vacated the seat after

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pleading guilty to perverts the course of justice. The Liberal

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Democrats have had consistently poor national poll ratings, then

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the troubles surrounding former Liberal Democrat Chief Executive

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Lord Rennard emerged. Despite these problems the Liberal Democrats held

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the seat. Albeit with a much reduced majority. Not that Nick

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Clegg will care today. Even more troubling for the Conservatives

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though, is UKIP's performance. Nigel Farage's party finished

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second, with 25% of the vote. Their biggest ever share in a by-election.

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And they got 1,000 votes more than Maria Hutchings the Conservative

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candidate who finished third. That was a result that we asked senior

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Conservative backbench David day vabtsd on Wednesday's programme.

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You come second or maybe terrible suggestion, third, I suggest you

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again, crisis for Cameron? If we came third it would be a cry stha,

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is the case, but, if it is a close second, with UKIP on our tail, it

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will be uncomfortable. Let us be clear, this is not going to

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dislodge David Cameron, he will be will to the next election, it will

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make things more uncomfortable. we are joined by Anna Soubry.

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Welcome to the programme. 2.20am March 1, 2013 all Tory hopes of an

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overall imagine any the Commons died? You think so I think we all

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have to get real about by-election, especially in a seat held by

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Liberal Democrats, and for give me, I have fought two marginal seats so

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I think I come at at it from a different perspectives. I know

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about helping out. The Liberal Democrats, especially in a seat

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like this where they have been for many year, they started off with, I

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think almost every single borough kounslo, I know from my own

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experience the huge power that gives you, when you that

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entrenchment many your community, I know because I have fought marginal

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seerbgts you need the when you are up against, in a marginal seat.

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to get a majority you need to win 20 Eastleigh, they are all like

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that, the last time. I don't think it saz simple as that. The last

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time you won an overall majority it was Eastleigh. You have not won an

:07:26.:07:30.

overall majority, you couldn't win it in a by-election. Can I explain

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why. When you are fighting Liberal Democrats who are well entrenched

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who operate in a way that is Admiral, you can't knock their

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machinery, when you are up against that, especially when you have a

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very sensible, home-grown candidate like they had, I am not saying the

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others weren't very good. All the candidates were very good, the

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quality, apart from Labour's but that is me making a quick sharp

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point. It is not that sharp. It is not that clever, really. They

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selected an outstandingly good candidate for them and what they

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needed to do and they pulled it off. Privately, because you don't say it

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publicly at the start of a campaigns privately we knew it

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would be almost impossible, not withstanding the circumstances of

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the by-election, to win it, because we know how well entrenched they

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have been in that constituency over decades now. So let us get this

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right. You always thought you couldn't win the constituency, even

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though this was a by-election being fought as a result of the sitting

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Liberal Democrat MP... Going to prison. Probably going to prorpbgs

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and then a sex scandal, being a Liberal Democrat... I didn't know

:08:39.:08:42.

that. A sex scandal which became a crisis of the leadership for Mr

:08:42.:08:46.

Clegg, and you still couldn't win. Because you have to understand, as

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I am sure you do, a number of factor, one yor, you have the

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Liberal Democrat factors secondly you have the by-election factors

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and I thought some of the points Michael Gove made on the Today

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programme were absolutely on the money, got it absolutely right.

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About an increasing number of the electorate, ordinary people who are

:09:05.:09:09.

fed up with all of us, and you have the protest vote, which you always

:09:09.:09:13.

get in by-election, that used to go to the liberals, which is why they

:09:13.:09:17.

are successful, going to UKIP, for reasons I can understand, then you

:09:17.:09:21.

have got to factor in the fact that the Liberal Democrats held almost

:09:21.:09:24.

every single seat on the borough Cowen sism I am, this isn't a

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criticism, why would you know this? Unless you have fought a marginal

:09:28.:09:32.

seat as I have done, unless you understand how those seats work,

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and the importance of good local councillor, you can't understand

:09:35.:09:40.

why you get the results like Eastleigh. You are right. We

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haven't fought a marginal see. It maybe important but on this result

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are toast. This is a majority... toast? I Amor than well aware of my

:09:53.:09:57.

slender majority, I understand why it is the small numbers it S I

:09:57.:10:01.

fought an encumbent, one of the great things that came out of the

:10:01.:10:06.

2010 election was an of the power of that. My brilliant colleague

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Jessica Leigh, I won't try to put her down, got a fantastic result

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and a fantastic swing. One of the reasons that she did so well, as

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did Mark, I can't remember his name, Mark Spencer in Sherwood, they

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weren't standing against incumbents, if you speak to Mark, if Paddy

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Tipping, if the Labour endumb bent had stood like mine, Mark would be

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the first to say Paddy would have won. You saw it where Vernon Coaker

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did stand... Are you going to mention any names we haven't heard

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of? It is good bluster but let us get to the chase. I want to ask you

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a question. You have had a good say, you are not going to filibuster

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your way out, your election strategy, your party's election

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strategy involves winning 20 seats like Eastleigh to get an overall

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majority. Forgive me I think we have a Liberal Democrat list and a

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marginal. Everything you have just said, about not winning Eastleigh

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is why you will not win the other Liberal Democrat seats as well,

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therefore you get no overall majority. The point I was going to

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make, I think we have a list of Liberal Democrat seats swre, a

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target Liberal Democrat seat list and a target Labour Tory marginal

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list and one that is overall. I am not sure where Eastleigh is on that.

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16 on both. On the combined or on the Liberal Democrat? 16 you have

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to win from the Liberal Democrats. When you drill down into it. We do

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do that, we look at the personalities, especially in

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Liberal Democrat seats. You need to win the 20 to have any chance of an

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overall majority.. I agree with you in your analysis, when you factor

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in the by-election, then, it takes on a tote, you take it out of

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context, that is what I am trying to say. You couldn't win it at a

:12:03.:12:06.

tpwhrebgshurpbgs you can't win it at a by-election, you can't win. I

:12:06.:12:12.

would suggest to you, that you have no chance, no chance of winning

:12:12.:12:17.

Eastleigh in the 2015 general election. You might be right,

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because it is a Liberal Democrat seat. It is one you have targeted

:12:21.:12:25.

that you need the win. Yes, but then as we also know as you go into

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a general election, the complexities of a general election

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change almost from one constituency to another because of this

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encumbency factors I would say to all kphenta to, and you heard them

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talking about the encumbency project, where they understand and

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recognise the huge power now of that, you saw that in the borough

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council elections as well. Forgive me, I hate to say it, everything

:12:54.:12:57.

you say, it means it is Mission Impossible to dislodge 20 Liberal

:12:57.:13:01.

Democrats to give you an overall majority, in that is the case, what

:13:01.:13:07.

is Mr Cameron perceived as such a loser? I don't believe he is.

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has never won an election. Hang on, forgive me, I will not sense and

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will not allow it, you are entitled to say it, but you are wrong,

:13:18.:13:21.

fundamentally wrong. I am wrong he has never won an election?

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suggest that the backbenchers do not support the Prime Minister is

:13:25.:13:29.

wrong. Really? There maybe some that don't but the over

:13:29.:13:35.

Westminstering majority of MPs in the Parliamentary party... You are

:13:35.:13:38.

so divided, you wouldn't appear with Mark Pritchard. No, I have

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never, no, I have never ever gone blue on blue, and anybody will tell

:13:43.:13:49.

you the same thing as well. None of us will do it. Because you are

:13:49.:13:55.

divided? It is not good for the party a divide party never wins the

:13:55.:14:00.

respect of an electorate. wouldn't do it is a signal of howdy

:14:00.:14:05.

vieded you are. It has never been any different in the way I will

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operate, I will not do blue on blue. You can have the final word. I

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presume we are giving up on winning Liberal Democrat seats at all. The

:14:13.:14:17.

logic if you can't win a seat with a Liberal Democrat, you can't win a

:14:17.:14:22.

seat with an incumbent you will end up with the same number of seats.

:14:22.:14:25.

On Tuesday, there was an opinion poll in one of the papers putting

:14:25.:14:30.

the Liberal Democrats on 8%, the lowest ever they have ever had

:14:30.:14:40.
:14:40.:14:44.

nationally. And yet still they You have played a straight bat and

:14:45.:14:48.

England may be calling on you to open the batting. In England is not

:14:48.:14:52.

that desperate! I thought we were doing well in the cricket. England

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is doing well, unlike the Conservatives.

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We are joined now by Ben page of the polling firm Ipsos MORI. How

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great was that win for the Liberal Democrats? As Andrew Pierce said,

:15:07.:15:13.

they were polling badly nationally. Yes. Most pollsters, including me,

:15:13.:15:16.

believed the Liberal Democrats would do much better than their

:15:16.:15:21.

current rating in the national polls for a general election,

:15:21.:15:24.

partly because of their incumbency and also because the Liberal

:15:24.:15:28.

Democrats, when it comes to a fight, are ferocious. They did of course

:15:28.:15:34.

lose a lot of share in this vote, but given the size of their

:15:34.:15:39.

majority, he enough to hang on. They got 23% of the vote in 2010.

:15:39.:15:47.

It will go down, but not to 9%. It might go down to 16%. This seems to

:15:48.:15:54.

confirm that theory. It is not brilliant news for them. They lost

:15:54.:15:58.

14% of the vote -- if they lost 14% of the vote in many other seats,

:15:58.:16:03.

there would be out. But it is much worse for David Cameron, and Ed

:16:03.:16:09.

Miliband might have hoped to do better. By what about you could?

:16:09.:16:13.

They did not win the seat, but they will no doubt say they were the

:16:13.:16:16.

winners of the night. They were certainly the surprise of the night.

:16:16.:16:21.

I was not expecting them to do quite so well. 1000 more than the

:16:21.:16:25.

Conservatives. They are still an unknown quantity. They are not

:16:25.:16:29.

winning lots of councillors in local elections. They are almost

:16:29.:16:33.

like the Liberal Democrats used to be, the people you can vote for in

:16:33.:16:36.

by-elections because it will not make much difference. They

:16:36.:16:41.

represent a constituency in British politics, which is people who are

:16:41.:16:45.

fed up. Their boat is very concerned about things like

:16:45.:16:49.

immigration. They tend to be older. There is a whole range of people

:16:49.:16:54.

out there, but those they most threaten our of course David

:16:54.:17:00.

Cameron and his chance of a Conservative majority in 2015.

:17:00.:17:04.

damaging is it for David Cameron? Again, with by-elections, you need

:17:04.:17:08.

to be careful about making generalisations. It is more

:17:08.:17:11.

problematic for David Cameron in terms of party management. This

:17:11.:17:14.

will be crying out to many people on the right of his party, there

:17:14.:17:21.

will say, if only you had tacked right, things would be better. But

:17:21.:17:25.

Cameron's brigade will say, we tribe that in 2005 with Michael

:17:25.:17:29.

Howard and it did not work. The Conservatives may become divided as

:17:29.:17:33.

they try to read the runes of this, but it was a by-election.

:17:34.:17:37.

Labour MP said it was a disaster for Labour. In it certainly was not

:17:37.:17:41.

good news. This was not ever going to be a Labour seat, but Ed

:17:41.:17:45.

Miliband should have been hoping the One nation message was somehow

:17:45.:17:50.

cutting through. John O'Farrell is a great comedian. Whether he is the

:17:50.:17:53.

right candidate for this type of seat is another matter. But this is

:17:53.:17:58.

not brilliant news for Labour, who think they are surging back into

:17:58.:18:01.

middle England. They do need to be there.

:18:01.:18:04.

We are joined now by a Tory backbencher Mark Pritchard. What

:18:04.:18:08.

mood are you in this morning? Are you going to tell us what you

:18:08.:18:12.

really think, or have you swallowed a loyal to Bill? Well, it is

:18:12.:18:17.

clearly a disappointing result, but it is the mid-term blues, by-

:18:17.:18:21.

elections are unpredictable and many of us always thought this

:18:21.:18:25.

would be a difficult by-election to win. So the loyalty pill has kicked

:18:25.:18:31.

in. I am one of the most loyal Tory backbenchers. It just happens that

:18:31.:18:38.

on the EU referendum and the Budget, I disagree with the Prime Minister.

:18:38.:18:41.

David Davies told the Daily Politics that if the Tories came

:18:41.:18:46.

third, it would be a crisis for Mr Cameron. Do you agree? I don't

:18:46.:18:50.

think it is a crisis. This is a difficult period for the

:18:50.:18:57.

Conservative Party. I don't think this result, extrapolated to the

:18:57.:19:01.

general election, will necessarily be the same. We are making progress

:19:01.:19:04.

on education and welfare reforms and deficit reduction. On

:19:04.:19:07.

immigration, we have had excellent numbers over the last few days,

:19:07.:19:11.

perhaps not in time for this by- election. If we continue to make

:19:11.:19:17.

progress on those issues, people will see that we are a party that

:19:17.:19:22.

can deliver and hopefully deliver more if we have an outright

:19:22.:19:26.

Conservative majority. But prior to the by-election, Your leader came

:19:26.:19:32.

out front in out referendum. He moved to appease the Euro-sceptic

:19:32.:19:37.

wing of his party. You chose a Euro-sceptic candidate, someone who

:19:37.:19:40.

said she would vote to leave unless a lot of powers were repatriated.

:19:40.:19:47.

Much good it did you. Well, UKIP are now the natural party of

:19:47.:19:53.

protest. The Liberal Democrats have lost that crown. There are

:19:53.:20:00.

challenges ahead. But once the message off our welfare reforms,

:20:00.:20:06.

education reforms, making progress on immigration, ones that get out

:20:06.:20:10.

over the next two and a half years, people will look again. One good

:20:10.:20:14.

thing is that people will hopefully now begin to scrutinise what you

:20:14.:20:19.

could stand for. If you look at their manifesto, they are pretty

:20:19.:20:27.

much offering champagne all round. They want tax cuts for everybody. I

:20:27.:20:33.

don't say we should not learn lessons from this, but it is more

:20:33.:20:37.

of a political tremor rather than an earthquake. The but it is a

:20:37.:20:41.

problem for you, because if you really want to leave the European

:20:41.:20:45.

Union, you vote UKIP. If you want a tough line on immigration, you vote

:20:45.:20:50.

UKIP. If you are against gay marriage, you vote UKIP. If you are

:20:50.:20:55.

in favour of grammar schools, you vote UKIP. You don't vote Tory.

:20:55.:21:00.

That is the lesson of Eastleigh. The Prime Minister is the first

:21:00.:21:04.

British Prime Minister to offer an in-out referendum on the European

:21:04.:21:10.

Union. That is a significant step. Those people who are Euro-sceptic

:21:10.:21:18.

within UKIP don't want to see a pro European, someone who is against a

:21:18.:21:22.

referendum, against giving the people a choice, against taking

:21:22.:21:26.

back British sovereignty. That person is Ed Miliband. The real

:21:26.:21:31.

problem on Europe is for the Labour Party. We are the and the party of

:21:31.:21:36.

potential government that can offer an in-out referendum. The Labour

:21:36.:21:40.

Party are not offering that. If people want to vote UKIP and

:21:40.:21:42.

getting a pro-European Ed Miliband as prime minister, they are

:21:43.:21:49.

entitled to. The at given that you could's appeal is on more than just

:21:49.:21:54.

Europe - back UKIP's appeal is on more than just Europe, it is on the

:21:54.:21:57.

other issues I mentioned. The centre-left vote was split in the

:21:57.:22:01.

'80s between the Social Democrats and the Labour Party, giving your

:22:01.:22:05.

party over a decade of large majorities. You are now split on

:22:05.:22:10.

the right, with a strong party on the right picking off your right

:22:11.:22:15.

wing flank and splitting the centre-right vote. That is why we

:22:15.:22:20.

need to make the case for lower immigration and set out our message.

:22:20.:22:28.

The figures are down from 247,000 the year before last. What about

:22:28.:22:33.

the Romanians and Bulgarians? hope to have a backbench business

:22:33.:22:38.

debate on this issue. Their controls end at the end of December

:22:38.:22:48.
:22:48.:22:49.

this year. Those policies need to be realistic and achievable. The

:22:50.:22:59.
:23:00.:23:01.

Prime Minister is chairing a cross- party group on this. There is a

:23:01.:23:07.

weakness in what Mark is saying. It is very easy for UKIP in the by-

:23:07.:23:13.

election. The Government will not say how many Romanians and

:23:13.:23:15.

Bulgarians they think will come into Britain next year. Ministers

:23:15.:23:20.

refused to answer the question. UKIP can then say, if you vote for

:23:20.:23:24.

us, none of them will come in, because we will take Britain out of

:23:24.:23:28.

the European Union. Labour were saying this morning as well that

:23:28.:23:32.

they need to address immigration more seriously. They say that after

:23:32.:23:38.

every by-election. The only people with a clear answer to this are

:23:38.:23:43.

UKIP, whether you agree or disagree. They say, we will not be in the

:23:43.:23:48.

union, so we will control our borders. I am not sure if every

:23:48.:23:52.

party can move to where you could is. A but you cannot stop the

:23:52.:23:55.

Romanians and Bulgarians. They have a right to come to this country

:23:55.:24:00.

under the rules of the EU, just as we have a right to go there. You

:24:00.:24:05.

can't change that. I would like to see control of our borders. That

:24:05.:24:09.

does not mean we shut the borders to everybody. We need a sensible

:24:09.:24:14.

immigration system. But you can't do that as a member of the EU.

:24:14.:24:18.

is why I am pleased we are having an in-out referendum in 2018.

:24:18.:24:24.

late. They will all be here! agree. And they could be a huge

:24:25.:24:30.

asset, just like the Poles who came. Five years is too long to wait to

:24:30.:24:34.

can -- to take control of our borders. You would like a

:24:34.:24:40.

referendum soon know? Absolutely. Keep taking the pills.

:24:40.:24:43.

Now, let's turn to the big winners from last night, although they did

:24:43.:24:48.

not win the seat. UKIP leader Nigel Farage joins me now from Eastleigh.

:24:48.:24:52.

It was an impressive performance, but as the Liberal Democrat

:24:52.:24:58.

President has said, you did not win. It was an average second. It was

:24:58.:25:02.

quite an impressive second, really. A very short by-election, called

:25:02.:25:06.

with three weeks' notice, very sudden. We did not have time to get

:25:06.:25:12.

to the postal voters, and still we went from 3.6% to 28% of the vote.

:25:12.:25:16.

That is a significant surge by anybody's standards. The three

:25:16.:25:20.

other parties are absolutely stunned by it, but it is because we

:25:20.:25:23.

are connecting with ordinary families. They can see the impact

:25:23.:25:27.

open-door immigration has had on jobs and housing in constituencies

:25:27.:25:31.

like this. All the rubbish we have heard in the last week from Cameron

:25:31.:25:35.

and everybody else that they will get tough, the fact is that if we

:25:35.:25:40.

want to control our borders, we cannot do that as members of the

:25:40.:25:44.

European Union. I think that penny has dropped with the electors of

:25:44.:25:49.

Eastleigh. But you still did not win. There is no UKIP MP. When is

:25:49.:25:57.

there going to be one? We have just had our best ever by-election

:25:57.:26:02.

result. We have run the Liberal Democrats close. On the day

:26:02.:26:06.

yesterday, we actually won. In terms of the people who voted on

:26:06.:26:10.

polling day, we did not have the ability to reach the postal voters.

:26:10.:26:15.

But never again can people say UKIP is a wasted vote. Never can people

:26:15.:26:20.

say we are splitting the vote. And never can people say that somehow,

:26:20.:26:24.

UKIP can't win, because we came ever so close to winning in this

:26:24.:26:29.

by-election. In by-elections to come, we will achieve victories.

:26:29.:26:33.

This is not just some mid-term protest, this is a clear trend. We

:26:33.:26:38.

have seen it in by-elections in Barnsley, Middlesbrough, Rotherham

:26:38.:26:42.

and now here. Isn't it a protest vote? You took votes from all the

:26:42.:26:47.

parties, not just the Conservatives. That would be classic protest

:26:47.:26:51.

politics. You took votes from the Liberal Democrats and Labour, too.

:26:51.:26:55.

When it comes to the general election, the line from the Tories

:26:55.:27:01.

will be simply that a vote for UKIP will give the seat to Labour.

:27:01.:27:04.

Conservatives in a general election will vote Conservative. But no one

:27:05.:27:09.

will believe that. This Tory idea that you could just takes votes

:27:09.:27:13.

from the Tory party is rubbish. One of the most significant sections of

:27:13.:27:17.

people voting for us yesterday were people in Eastleigh who had not

:27:17.:27:20.

voted for anybody for 20 or 30 years, and they voted UKIP

:27:20.:27:26.

yesterday. That is a vote by people saying, I like what this party says.

:27:26.:27:30.

They have the guts to stand up and campaign on tough issues while

:27:30.:27:35.

everybody else tries to push it under the carpet. Are you the new

:27:35.:27:42.

Liberal Democrats in terms of winning by-elections in the future?

:27:42.:27:47.

Over the last two years, we have gone from getting 2% in by-

:27:47.:27:56.

elections to 15% to 20% and now loony 30%. -- nearly 30%. Nobody in

:27:56.:27:59.

Westminster was to recognise it. There is a closed shop in British

:28:00.:28:05.

politics amongst the parties, the media and the public companies, but

:28:05.:28:10.

something will is happening. People are going out and vote in UKIP, and

:28:10.:28:15.

I believe that trend will continue. Judge me on May 3rd. We have the

:28:15.:28:25.

English council elections coming up on 2nd May. Judge me on 3rd May.

:28:25.:28:29.

That will be an important test, because you have not won lots of

:28:29.:28:32.

council seats in the past. You have said to me yourself, you have not

:28:32.:28:39.

got that local base, so it will be a big test. Very much so. When the

:28:39.:28:44.

Liberal Democrats were winning by- elections in the '90s, they had

:28:44.:28:49.

already built up a base at district and county council level. We have

:28:49.:28:53.

not done that yet, and to have come as close as we did to winning

:28:53.:28:56.

without a single councillor in Eastleigh makes that score last

:28:56.:29:02.

night even more remarkable. We have to make breakthroughs Indies may

:29:03.:29:06.

county council elections. UKIP already has a candidate for every

:29:06.:29:11.

seat. We have the European elections coming up in June 2014.

:29:11.:29:15.

If what happened last night was a tremor in British politics, next

:29:15.:29:25.
:29:25.:29:32.

year in the European elections, we Do you regretted not standing?

:29:32.:29:36.

I don't. Firstly we had an excellent candidate. If I had stood

:29:36.:29:41.

and done well, you would have said this just reinforces the fact UKIP

:29:41.:29:45.

is a one man party. No-one is going to say that any more. Thirdly, as

:29:45.:29:49.

leader, I want to be a candidate that leads the party into the

:29:49.:29:52.

European elections next year, because I believe we have a

:29:52.:29:56.

realistic chance of topping the poll, across the United Kingdom.

:29:56.:30:02.

Gabby, do you want to ask anything? .If you don't come top, can we

:30:02.:30:06.

conclude you are a busting flush? If we come second, nationally,

:30:06.:30:11.

indeed as we did back in 2009, I would be disappointed. Not to have

:30:11.:30:15.

won. Listen, I am not contemplating that, I think we can really do it

:30:16.:30:19.

next year, because vague promises at referendum in five years' time,

:30:19.:30:24.

or whatever it may be, simply isn't good enough. I think the fact that

:30:24.:30:28.

on January 1st next year we are opening our door, unconditionally

:30:28.:30:33.

to 29 million poor people from Romania and bull -- Bulgaria, it is

:30:33.:30:38.

something most people say enough is enough it is time we got control

:30:38.:30:42.

back op of our borders and our country. What did you drink to

:30:42.:30:50.

celebrate? Sadly, not enough! I didn't get back to the hotel until

:30:50.:30:55.

4.00 and I was doing my first television interview at 6.20, but I

:30:55.:30:59.

intend, now, after this interview, to go and catch up. I feel so sorry

:30:59.:31:09.

for you, what a tough night it has been. Go and celebrate. He won't be

:31:09.:31:12.

seen until Monday now. I don't think all 29 million are going to

:31:12.:31:18.

come. A lot might come but I don't think 29 million. I may be wrong

:31:18.:31:22.

but I don't think so. One of the reasons that the Liberal Democrats

:31:22.:31:25.

are pretty cock-a-hoop this morning is not just they won, but they won

:31:25.:31:30.

even though it has been a pretty torrid ten days for them in the

:31:30.:31:35.

run-up to last night's vote, so no surprise, it was a mightly relieved

:31:35.:31:38.

Nick Clegg who appeared at a victory rally in Eastleigh this

:31:38.:31:44.

morning. This has been a by- election we have had to fight, in

:31:44.:31:47.

exceptionally difficult circumstances. Our opponents have

:31:47.:31:52.

thrown everything at us. We held our nerve, we stood our ground, we

:31:52.:31:58.

worked as a team, we went out and campaigned on every doorstep, we

:31:58.:32:07.

overcame the odds and won a stunning victory. And we are joined

:32:07.:32:10.

by the Liberal Democrat whip in the House of Lords Dick Newby. Welcome

:32:10.:32:16.

to the Daily Politics. Now you won the seat, impressive victory, many

:32:16.:32:20.

think, but of course your share of the vote dropped more than the

:32:20.:32:26.

Conservative share of the vote dropped. Would you put that down to

:32:26.:32:30.

the Chris Rennard controversy or the Chris Huhne confrov? I think

:32:30.:32:34.

there were a number of head wind we were battling, a governing party at

:32:34.:32:39.

this point when the economy is not doing well, is going to be in

:32:39.:32:44.

difficulties. The Chris Huhne con-- controversy lost us some votes and

:32:44.:32:47.

no doubt the Chris Rennard controversy lost us some more, I

:32:47.:32:50.

think if you had asked virtually anybody yesterday, Liberal Democrat

:32:51.:32:54.

or anybody else, would we win by over 1700 votes they would have

:32:54.:32:59.

said no. You exceeded your expectations you think? It exceeded

:32:59.:33:03.

mine, having been done in Eastleigh. Was there any time in the campaign

:33:03.:33:09.

when you thought, this might be going bad for us? I think the, the

:33:09.:33:13.

thing that slightly surprised and worried me about Eastleigh was the

:33:13.:33:18.

way in which people, for whatever reason, had a difficulty with the

:33:18.:33:21.

Liberal Democrats, whether it was about Chris huerpbgs as one person

:33:21.:33:24.

had, or it was about the economy, which another person had, they had

:33:24.:33:28.

decided that they were going to -- Chris Huhne, they were going to

:33:28.:33:32.

vote a protest vote and they all vote one way, they vote for UKIP.

:33:32.:33:35.

One of the interesting things to me, is that none of them voted Labour.

:33:35.:33:42.

As far as I can tell. They all vote UKIP. Not very many. Not many

:33:42.:33:47.

Liberal Democrats went to Labour. UKIP did pick up people who were

:33:47.:33:49.

dissatisfied about anything. And it was obviously an impressive

:33:49.:33:56.

performance, but that was my concern. Looking back, the two main

:33:56.:33:59.

features of the campaign, one was the Tory campaign never seemed to

:33:59.:34:03.

take off. They began in a good position, then it got worse for

:34:03.:34:08.

them. What did take off, and gathered momentum as it went was

:34:08.:34:14.

UKIP. It became a surge, some senior Liberal Democrats who were

:34:14.:34:17.

down campaigning there said the real, the wise thing the Liberal

:34:17.:34:20.

Democrats did was having this on the 28th. Having a short campaign f

:34:20.:34:24.

this had been on for another week the UKIP surge could have been big

:34:24.:34:31.

enough to win. I don't know. I mean, the UKIP did have a surges but

:34:31.:34:34.

equally, UKIP weren't exposed to the kind of debate and scrutiny

:34:34.:34:40.

they would have been if people had been anticipating a UKIP surge, so

:34:40.:34:45.

they, at one level had an easy ride, but equally they had momentum going,

:34:45.:34:51.

as you know, in by-elections, momentum can often be very

:34:51.:34:54.

significant over a very short period. One way or another. I think

:34:54.:34:58.

we could have pulled it back and had a better result, but equally,

:34:58.:35:03.

it is very volatile times. Americans in primary campaigning

:35:03.:35:09.

call it is big Mo. We have been the Ben officialry of it in the past.

:35:09.:35:13.

If you go back to a by-election like Darlington, some time ago, we

:35:13.:35:16.

have been the losers when we started fauf a strong position and

:35:16.:35:22.

the surge has worked against us, for us, the great relief is we

:35:22.:35:28.

fought the by-election on local strength and national competence. A

:35:28.:35:30.

very significant proportion of people went with that, despite the

:35:31.:35:35.

head wind we have been talking about. Where does this leave

:35:35.:35:40.

relations inside the coalition, does it on the one hand reassure

:35:40.:35:44.

Liberal Democrats that they can stay in the coalition and still win

:35:44.:35:49.

and don't face a wipe out, is that the view now, or is there some

:35:49.:35:55.

resentment that Tory allied in the press, made all the running they

:35:55.:35:59.

could, probably encouraged behind the scenes by Tories, to make it as

:35:59.:36:03.

grim as possible for Mr Clegg, in the middle of the Chris Rennard

:36:03.:36:06.

crisis? The way that the press have behaved is completely predictable,

:36:06.:36:11.

so we are not going to be phased by the fact that the Daily Mail

:36:11.:36:15.

behaves like the Daily Mail. Relations in the coalition are good,

:36:15.:36:19.

I am involved in making it work in the House of Lords. It has not

:36:19.:36:23.

always been that good as Tam Strathclyde told news the House of

:36:23.:36:29.

Lords. Within and between parties, there are arguments and

:36:29.:36:31.

disagreements... Is there some resentment at the way some Liberal

:36:32.:36:36.

Democrats have said to us, they felt the story -- Tories were

:36:36.:36:43.

whipping up the row over Chris Rennard, and pinning it on Mr Clegg.

:36:43.:36:47.

I don't think, so because I think we think, or I think, that it

:36:47.:36:51.

wasn't the Tory high command whipping it up, it were a small

:36:51.:36:56.

number of newspapers who were using it, explicitly in some case, to try

:36:56.:37:01.

and stop the Leveson proposals going through. They said it in

:37:01.:37:05.

their... We have that newspaper here, the Daily Mail. I would like

:37:05.:37:10.

to point out, this story broke on Channel 4, the Guardian newspaper

:37:10.:37:13.

if you like of the airwaves. They continue to make a lot of head way

:37:13.:37:17.

on that story, and more and more of these women came for warned talked

:37:17.:37:20.

to newspapers. I know Nick Clegg thinks it is not the job of the

:37:20.:37:30.
:37:30.:37:31.

I think it is our job that and we will continue to do so. Whether it

:37:31.:37:37.

is Tory, liberal or Labour. We have a properly appointed detective

:37:37.:37:41.

looking at it. If it was left to you it wouldn't have. The women

:37:41.:37:45.

involved decided to go to the police. It happened because they

:37:45.:37:51.

decided to go to press because they had gone to your party and got no

:37:51.:37:55.

satisfaction. A number of the women who have come forward hadn't gone

:37:55.:38:00.

to the party. A number have and didn't get any satisfaction that is

:38:00.:38:03.

why we have set in place an investigation and why the police

:38:03.:38:09.

are looking at it. Gabby?. I wonder how you think this will affect

:38:09.:38:13.

coalition relations in another way. The Tories are under pressure to

:38:13.:38:17.

move towards UKIP, move towards European immigration, do you think

:38:17.:38:20.

that will put strain on the coalition in a different way, you

:38:20.:38:26.

will find yourselves pulling in a direction you don't want to go?

:38:26.:38:30.

They cause stresses and strains but both sides went into it for five

:38:30.:38:34.

years to sort out the economic mess, there are stresses and strans and

:38:34.:38:41.

that is what we will attempt to do, as best we can. Were you aware of

:38:41.:38:45.

the years of the accusations of being made against Chris Rennard?

:38:45.:38:49.

was not aware of any specific allegation about Chris Rennard,

:38:49.:38:55.

until very very recently. What about general accusations of his

:38:55.:38:59.

behaviour? Well, there are, there are rumours about most people in

:38:59.:39:04.

politics, in my experience, and most of them, proved to be

:39:04.:39:09.

unfounded. I never was aware of any serious allegations against Chris

:39:09.:39:14.

Rennard, until recently. You had heard of rumours of his behaviour?

:39:14.:39:20.

There was some about. Turned out to be more than scuttle butt. Neither

:39:20.:39:24.

I or most people, if not virtually everyone were wear of the exact

:39:24.:39:28.

nature of the complaints against Chris. I wasn't. Do you regretture

:39:28.:39:31.

partyty did not do more at the time snfpblts I think it should have

:39:31.:39:40.

done, more, yes. -- done more, yes. One party appears to be trying to

:39:40.:39:45.

lie low, but what does last night's result mean for Labour? Their

:39:45.:39:49.

celebrity candidate John O'Farrell finished fourth, with just over

:39:49.:39:52.

4,000 votes and just under 10% vote share, while the combined

:39:52.:39:57.

Conservative and Liberal Democrat share of the vote fell by 28%,

:39:57.:40:01.

Labour were hardly the beneficiaries. Their share of the

:40:01.:40:05.

vote increased by just 0.2%. Speaking earlier, Labour leader Ed

:40:05.:40:10.

Miliband said it was disappointing for Labour. 6 I would have

:40:10.:40:13.

preferred to get more votes than we did. This was going to be a tough

:40:13.:40:19.

fight for Labour. It's a seat we have never won, but all it convince

:40:19.:40:23.

me of is we need to redouble or evidents to reach out to every part

:40:23.:40:28.

of the country, including areas where Labour hasn't been strong.

:40:28.:40:32.

This us with a disastrous night for the Conservatives and David Cameron.

:40:32.:40:35.

What we want to hear is a recognition people are deeply

:40:35.:40:38.

unhappy the direction of the country and he is going to listen.

:40:38.:40:41.

Labour leader Ed Milliband. We asked the Labour Party for an

:40:41.:40:45.

interview and we have been busy all morning, we can vouch for that

:40:45.:40:49.

asking MPs to come on to the programme. Must have been through

:40:49.:40:53.

every one of them, none were available. Sorry about that. Not

:40:53.:40:59.

even Diane Abbott? No, it seems. Gabby, the question that I would

:40:59.:41:03.

have put to Labour s that if you have had a fall in the combined

:41:03.:41:06.

share of the vote of Liberal Democrats and Conservatives of 28%,

:41:06.:41:10.

and as the Labour Party, you increase your vote share by 0.2%,

:41:11.:41:17.

something has the gone wrong.Ly my best to answer this, yes, it is

:41:17.:41:20.

a disaster, I don't think, I don't think the Labour Party can take any

:41:20.:41:24.

comfort from this result at all, so much for one nation Labour, really.

:41:24.:41:34.
:41:34.:41:35.

. They were going to be squeezed but they didn't have to be squeezed

:41:35.:41:45.
:41:45.:41:47.

that far, Labour has to be careful That badly when it comes to the

:41:47.:41:53.

crunch something is wrong, that lead is as soft as marshmallow.

:41:53.:41:56.

we had been focuses on what the Conservatives have to do to win an

:41:56.:41:59.

overall imaginety, Eastleigh would have been a target seat, Labour has

:42:00.:42:03.

to make inroads into southern heartlands, it can't rely on

:42:03.:42:09.

increasing its vote share, in seats its already has. It is right. There

:42:09.:42:13.

is no progress at all. I think John O'Farrell was the wrong candidate,

:42:13.:42:17.

for various reason, he unravelled rather some stuff he had written

:42:17.:42:22.

about Margaret Thatcher, he wish she had died in The Brighton Bomb

:42:22.:42:26.

and he didn't think Britain shouldn't have won the Falklands

:42:26.:42:30.

war. A lot of the task force ships set sail from Southampton, so he

:42:30.:42:34.

was a bad candidate, still, the Labour message is not playing on

:42:34.:42:38.

the doorstep, and Labour MPs, I saw a couple last night. They said they

:42:38.:42:41.

heard they would be in fourth, they were unhappy about it. And the

:42:41.:42:45.

record on the economy, is that still the problem, is that

:42:45.:42:48.

narrative playing with the electorate from David Cameron and

:42:48.:42:52.

George Osborne swag are blaming Labour for what happened? You get a

:42:52.:42:57.

sense Michael Gove said he thought the primary reason for Tory voertsd

:42:57.:43:00.

going was feeling very squeeze, skint, annoyed with Government and

:43:00.:43:06.

the ve, in which case why don't they move to party complaining

:43:06.:43:10.

about austerity. The fact they didn't people think the previous

:43:10.:43:13.

Government screwed up the economy and they voted for the only people

:43:13.:43:17.

who haven't had a chance to screw it up yet, that suggestings people

:43:17.:43:22.

have not forgiven and moved on. you think they didn't try hard

:43:22.:43:26.

enough, Labour, was there is a sense of let us let the internal

:43:26.:43:29.

grief between the coalition partners play out John O'Farrell,

:43:29.:43:34.

right, wrong candidate? We don't care. I think they fought and that

:43:34.:43:39.

is why Ed Miliband went. They threw a lot at it and put John O'Farrell

:43:39.:43:45.

everywhere, no, they wanted to do well there. Is it not likely, that

:43:45.:43:50.

in a general election, Labour would do better in the south and although

:43:50.:43:57.

they wouldn't pick up seats like Eastleigh, they could, I Anna

:43:57.:44:03.

Soubry said... They can't take her seat. They are likely to do better.

:44:03.:44:08.

Eastleigh is not a good guide. It is an unusual Liberal Democrat held

:44:08.:44:11.

marginal. Their main worry is taking seats off for fli, that they

:44:11.:44:15.

should do better than in Eastleigh. It is not a complete guide but it

:44:15.:44:20.

should worry them none the Les. is that one nation Labour going

:44:20.:44:24.

down, did anybody quote that to you? I don't recall hearing it. I

:44:24.:44:28.

think lit go the same way as David Cameron's big society. Does anybody

:44:28.:44:31.

mention that any more. Haven't heard it for a whie. Isn't the

:44:31.:44:37.

Daily Mail not one of the losers? It is the biggest read newspaper in

:44:37.:44:40.

the Eastleigh constituency. You have the biggest circulation of any

:44:40.:44:45.

daily newspaper and you ran day after day, against Mr Clegg, on the

:44:45.:44:49.

front-page, and they still won. don't think we are a loser at all.

:44:49.:44:55.

I think the voters in Eastleigh ig nored the noise off and decided

:44:55.:44:58.

they would vote on local issue, they are good at it, the Liberal

:44:59.:45:02.

Democrats, Anna Soubry had a good point. I think if we had our time

:45:02.:45:05.

again the Mail would have done it again. Nick Clegg behaved badly in

:45:05.:45:15.
:45:15.:45:19.

So, an exciting by-election in Eastleigh last night, but where

:45:19.:45:24.

does it fit into the pantheon in this country - not all countries

:45:24.:45:29.

have by-elections, but this country has by-elections, and we have had

:45:29.:45:32.

many great by-elections in the past. As we say at the Oscars, this film

:45:32.:45:37.

contains flash photography. So say bye-bye, Eastleigh by-

:45:37.:45:41.

election, because it is not pie-in- the-sky to say you will miss it.

:45:41.:45:45.

You see, these are isolated political contests, soaring outside

:45:45.:45:49.

the confines of the general election cycle, can make, briefly,

:45:49.:45:53.

a tiny place you had never heard of funds will -- characters you had

:45:53.:45:58.

never seen before front page news. They can test the political waters,

:45:58.:46:03.

signal a sea change and hand you the unexpected. Sceptical? Let me

:46:03.:46:13.
:46:13.:46:13.

refresh your memories. From sheer surprise, Orpington in Kent, a

:46:13.:46:18.

safely won Conservative seat in 1959, a by-election in 1962 saw a

:46:18.:46:23.

massive 22% swing to the Liberals, who had been down-and-out in 1951

:46:23.:46:28.

at 2.5% of the vote. Not bad for Eric Lubbock, a local councillor

:46:28.:46:33.

who was only the candidate after the Liberal who had stood in 1959

:46:33.:46:36.

was forced to step aside after admitting bigamy. Orpington man

:46:36.:46:41.

would not have approved. Baroness today, Shirley Williams back in

:46:41.:46:46.

1981 took Crosby with a similar Shockwave as the SDP, newly-founded,

:46:46.:46:51.

found it had an MP. There is not a single safe seat left in the

:46:51.:46:56.

country. A higher mark for the SDP, but nine years later in brutal

:46:56.:47:01.

after a merger of the Liberals and most SDP members as the Lib Dems,

:47:01.:47:05.

those who had stayed separate had a nasty shock as the News of the time

:47:05.:47:10.

pointed out. The other fragments of speech after the Lions who

:47:10.:47:14.

disagreed with the merger were represented in Bootle.

:47:14.:47:17.

The Liberal least avoiding the indignity suffered by the SDP, who

:47:17.:47:21.

were beaten by the Monster Raving Loony Party. Screaming Lord Sutch

:47:21.:47:25.

immediately offered an electoral pact to the SDP. One of the biggest

:47:25.:47:30.

swings in by-election history was Bermondsey in 1983, won by Lib Dem

:47:30.:47:34.

Simon Hughes against Labour's Peter Tatchell, a fight that has become

:47:34.:47:38.

as famous for the controversial nature of the campaign as for the

:47:38.:47:43.

margin of victory. The tragedy of this election is

:47:43.:47:48.

that prejudice and bigotry triumphed over tolerance and

:47:48.:47:54.

compassion, and smears and lies triumphed over truth and reason.

:47:54.:47:58.

has not been a dirty campaign as far as we are concerned. We fought

:47:58.:48:01.

a straight campaign from the beginning on the same issues before

:48:01.:48:07.

they chose their candidate. In 2008, Labour activists in Crewe and

:48:07.:48:11.

Nantwich, defending the seat held for so long by the late and

:48:11.:48:14.

formidable Gwyneth Dunwoody, struck up a jolly wheeze to paint the

:48:14.:48:19.

Conservative as rather posh. Most observers now suggest that it

:48:19.:48:23.

helped boot the well heeled Timson into Parliament and signalled what

:48:23.:48:30.

was to come for Gordon Brown. have sent a message, loud and clear,

:48:30.:48:36.

that Gordon Brown just does not get it. Firmly enough, posh did come

:48:36.:48:39.

back as a campaign tactic after David Cameron got into power. But

:48:39.:48:44.

in Bradford West, they were never going to win. It was Labour

:48:44.:48:47.

territory and most strategists assured us that Labour would hold,

:48:47.:48:54.

which is why Labour were a bit surprised by this. This, the most

:48:54.:49:01.

sensational result in British by- election history, bar none,

:49:01.:49:08.

represents the Bradford spring. This is an uprising.

:49:08.:49:11.

George Galloway, ending their report dramatically.

:49:11.:49:16.

Now, is the BBC too wasteful? Some politicians think it is and one

:49:16.:49:20.

Conservative MP is introducing a bill to make the BBC publish any

:49:20.:49:24.

invoice over �500 and hand over all its accounts to an independent body.

:49:24.:49:28.

In a moment, we will speak to Alun Cairns about his private member's

:49:28.:49:32.

bill. First, let's look at how a lack of information from the BBC

:49:32.:49:35.

has frustrated some MPs on the Public Accounts Committee back in

:49:35.:49:39.

November. I hope he will understand why this

:49:39.:49:43.

exchange is unsatisfactory. Many of the questions I am asking you, we

:49:43.:49:46.

would already have the answers to if the National Audit Office were

:49:46.:49:52.

able to operate the way been -- the way they normally operate. We would

:49:52.:49:56.

have understood all this and be further ahead. I understand your

:49:56.:50:03.

frustration. Good, because we have been trying to make this point.

:50:03.:50:07.

understand the frustrations and to do with the weight things operate

:50:07.:50:12.

for everyone. It is what it is, and I have to work within that. I am

:50:12.:50:16.

trying to be as helpful as I can be. I am happy to go on as long as you

:50:16.:50:21.

need me here. The problem is that we can't ask the right questions,

:50:21.:50:25.

because we don't have the right data on which to base those

:50:25.:50:29.

questions. I come back to the conflict of interest. You are in

:50:29.:50:36.

essence the deal-maker, the regulator, and you are also

:50:36.:50:40.

controlling both information. That seems a conflict of interest.

:50:40.:50:45.

have had this discussion many times. Actually, it is down to Parliament

:50:45.:50:47.

to decide it does not want to have a royal charter arrangement with

:50:47.:50:53.

the BBC. It is in your control to change the arrangements, not mine.

:50:53.:50:57.

Let's speak to Alun Cairns about his bill tackling accountability in

:50:57.:51:01.

the BBC. What do you want to know? You will recall that after the

:51:01.:51:04.

change of government in 2010, all local authorities were expected to

:51:04.:51:09.

publish every invoice in excess of �500. That has changed habits

:51:09.:51:13.

within local authorities across the UK. I want the same to happen to

:51:13.:51:18.

the BBC. But is the BBC like a local authority? The BBC spends

:51:18.:51:23.

public money. The licence fee is the greatest regressive tax in the

:51:23.:51:27.

UK. It raises �3 billion, and we have a right to know where it is

:51:27.:51:31.

being spent. Many examples have been exposed by the Daily Mail and

:51:31.:51:37.

other papers, where maybe 170 staff are sent to cover US presidential

:51:37.:51:43.

elections. Fortunes are spent on accommodation or taxi fares or

:51:43.:51:48.

hospitality or retirement parties. We have a right to know how much is

:51:48.:51:51.

being spent. The BBC would say it fully complies with public

:51:51.:51:57.

procurement rules. It does appear before select committees on a

:51:57.:52:03.

regular basis. Talent pay is published annually. Critics would

:52:03.:52:08.

say you are just trying to pick at the BBC here. And not at all. BBC

:52:08.:52:12.

journalists rightly scrutinised the expenditure of every MP, local

:52:12.:52:16.

authorities and departments of government. It is right that that

:52:16.:52:20.

is done. But I also think the public have a right to scrutinise

:52:20.:52:27.

public money, �3 billion of it, and to establish where the waste is. It

:52:27.:52:37.
:52:37.:52:38.

would help the BBC. There is an expectation from the public to

:52:38.:52:47.

analyse, and I am doing this as a friend of the BBC. Good to know! In

:52:47.:52:52.

terms of what you are trying to gain from this waste that use

:52:52.:52:57.

exists in the BBC, what are you looking to cut out? How much do you

:52:57.:53:01.

think the BBC is wasting? That is precisely the point, because we

:53:01.:53:06.

don't know and will not know until the data is published. Then we can

:53:06.:53:10.

make an informed choice. At the moment, we are left to make a

:53:10.:53:14.

judgement about 170 staff going to cover presidential elections. That

:53:14.:53:19.

may or may not be the right number. We also have competition sometimes

:53:19.:53:23.

between journalists, where they will not share resources when they

:53:23.:53:28.

could. If we see every invoice in excess of �500, we can make a

:53:28.:53:31.

judgment and that might concentrate the mind more among the BBC

:53:31.:53:36.

managers. Do you accept that the BBC does operate in a predominantly

:53:36.:53:40.

commercial sector? It could be placed at a competitive

:53:40.:53:44.

disadvantage with commercial rivals if they had to publish everything

:53:44.:53:49.

over �500. They obviously negotiate deals which could be better value

:53:49.:53:53.

for the taxpayer. I think transparency would drive that

:53:53.:53:58.

further, where by a competitor who could provide a similar service

:53:58.:54:02.

could see how much was being paid and say, I could undercut that. It

:54:02.:54:05.

is standard practice to be transparent these days, and the BBC

:54:05.:54:08.

is the only organisation that is not transparent as other

:54:08.:54:11.

departments off. A bit not be expensive and bureaucratic to

:54:11.:54:17.

publish every invoice over �500? local authority did it on a

:54:17.:54:22.

voluntary basis and it has changed the habits and save them an awful

:54:22.:54:25.

lot of money. Before, they travelled first class. Now they

:54:25.:54:30.

think, does it need to be that way? Before they take a taxi, they

:54:30.:54:37.

question the way they go about business. Do you think, as a

:54:37.:54:41.

journalist, would you like to know? I am sure it would be fascinating

:54:41.:54:49.

to sift through every �502 invoice. No. You would end up with a lot of

:54:49.:54:52.

invoices for �499.99. Secondly, what would shock me about BBC

:54:52.:54:57.

spending would not be those kinds of numbers. It is when you pay

:54:57.:55:00.

people six figures to leave the BBC. It is the huge pay-offs, the amount

:55:01.:55:08.

of money spent on every on-air talent. Obviously, the amount spent

:55:08.:55:14.

on you, Andrew, would not shock me. A BBC talent issue is brought.

:55:14.:55:16.

Viewers would accept that BBC talent are the main presenters and

:55:16.:55:21.

so on, but it goes beyond that. And because that is not subject to

:55:21.:55:31.
:55:31.:55:34.

transparency rules, it is something they can hide. It does not go far

:55:34.:55:39.

enough. Auditing is the second part of the bill. The BBC is the only

:55:39.:55:42.

public sector organisation that sets the terms of investigation by

:55:42.:55:45.

the National Audit Office. If any other government department wanted

:55:45.:55:54.

to do that, journalists would rightly complaining. We are purring

:55:54.:55:58.

with pleasure and the Daily Mail. We think this is a tremendous idea.

:55:58.:56:08.
:56:08.:56:10.

Tell me something I don't know! wonder if we can find out how many

:56:10.:56:13.

people the BBC employees. If you put the question to them, they

:56:13.:56:21.

can't tell you. I around 24,000, I think. We don't know, that is the

:56:21.:56:24.

point. The BBC needs to accept standards where the public sector

:56:24.:56:27.

is expected to be transparent so that people can make their own

:56:27.:56:31.

judgment. There might not be inefficient expenditure, but we

:56:31.:56:39.

simply don't know. Alun Cairns, you are a friend of the BBC's(!).

:56:39.:56:47.

Here are my invoices for over �500 from 2012. I am impressed. That now

:56:47.:56:51.

satisfies me that there is no waste on the part of Andrew Neil. But you

:56:51.:56:58.

have not seen mine. Now, anyone remember political life

:56:58.:57:04.

before last night's by-election? I don't know. Here is the rest of the

:57:04.:57:13.

week's political news in 60 seconds. To play - not a Scousers saying

:57:13.:57:17.

hello, it is the credit rating the UK used to have until the ratings

:57:17.:57:21.

agency Moody's downgraded us. The Chancellor said it was proved his

:57:21.:57:26.

economic strategy is working - eh? The allegation of harassment

:57:26.:57:29.

against Lib Dem Lord Rennard, who has always denied it, turned into a

:57:29.:57:33.

leadership crisis for Nick Clegg, when he struggled to explain what

:57:33.:57:39.

he knew, when. These concerns about Lord Rennard's inappropriate

:57:39.:57:43.

behaviour were circulating at the time. And we found out who will

:57:43.:57:48.

form the next government of Italy - no one. Everyone got a few votes,

:57:49.:57:53.

but the star was comedian cum politician Beppe Grillo. Finally to

:57:53.:57:55.

City Hall, where procedural shenanigans led to Boris Johnson

:57:55.:57:58.

almost being checked out of a committee meeting. The mayor was

:57:58.:58:04.

his usual understated self. Are you saying they haven't the guts to put

:58:04.:58:14.
:58:14.:58:15.

questions to me? Supine invertebrate jellies.

:58:15.:58:20.

He is the Beppe Grillo of British politics. We have run out of time.

:58:20.:58:26.

Thanks to both of you for being our guests of the day. The One O'clock

:58:26.:58:31.

News is starting on BBC One. More on the fall-out from the Eastleigh

:58:31.:58:35.

by-election. I will be back on BBC One on Sunday with The Sunday

:58:35.:58:41.

Andrew Neil and Jo Coburn discuss the result of the Eastleigh by-election, with guests including the UKIP leader Nigel Farage.


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