Browse content similar to 04/03/2013. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Good afternoon. Welcome to the Daily Politics. How do you stop a | :00:43. | :00:47. | |
sudden influx of immigrants from Bulgaria and Romania? The | :00:47. | :00:52. | |
Government sthis it can do it by impose -- thinks it can do it by | :00:52. | :00:56. | |
imposing tougher rules on benefits. The catch - British citizens may be | :00:56. | :01:01. | |
affected too. Surprise, surprise, Tory right-wingers call on David | :01:01. | :01:06. | |
Cameron to cut taxes in the Budget later this month. She's the only | :01:06. | :01:10. | |
female Prime Minister Britain has ever had, but should Mrs Thatcher | :01:10. | :01:17. | |
get a statue in her home town of Grantham? Labour say yes, the | :01:17. | :01:21. | |
Tories say, no. We have found MPs with a cause - | :01:21. | :01:26. | |
they get what they want in the end but sometimes through more | :01:26. | :01:31. | |
inventive means. All that in the next hour, ve. With us for the | :01:31. | :01:36. | |
first half of the programme is Jude Kelly, the artistic director of the | :01:36. | :01:41. | |
Southbank Centre in London. She sat on the board of the Cultural | :01:42. | :01:47. | |
Olympiad for the Olympic Games. Welcome to the programme. Thank you. | :01:47. | :01:51. | |
This week, the Southbank Centre is hosting the Women of the World | :01:51. | :01:55. | |
festival, which promises live music, comedy and passionate debate. A big | :01:55. | :01:59. | |
title - what is it all about? celebrating what women have | :01:59. | :02:02. | |
achieved in this country and across the world. It is posing the | :02:02. | :02:06. | |
questions about what is stopping their potential being fully | :02:06. | :02:10. | |
realised. So the celebration is the festival side of it. It's all kind | :02:10. | :02:18. | |
of women from astronauts, women in the British Army, sports women, | :02:18. | :02:22. | |
including Gillingham lady's football team. Do you have a vested | :02:22. | :02:28. | |
interest in that? Just to cheer them on. It is to show the range of | :02:28. | :02:34. | |
skills, expertise and commitments women are making in civil society | :02:34. | :02:39. | |
and domestic questions. What are we doing about girls' education across | :02:39. | :02:43. | |
the world? What are we doing about women in public life? There's been | :02:43. | :02:46. | |
a report showing that women's progress is not as fast as it | :02:46. | :02:51. | |
should be. Why do you think it is not as fast as it should be in the | :02:51. | :02:57. | |
UK? There's still a combination of women themselves putting barrier | :02:57. | :03:03. | |
into their own progress on the grounds they feel that maybe they | :03:03. | :03:08. | |
cannot do it all, maybe not have the work-life balance. Sometimes | :03:08. | :03:13. | |
they feel dismayed and pushed back. They don't have the same networking | :03:13. | :03:17. | |
systems the men have yet. There are some very obvious attitudes that | :03:18. | :03:21. | |
still prevail. You would be surprised, but they do prevail | :03:21. | :03:25. | |
about what is suitable for women and what is suitable for men. | :03:25. | :03:30. | |
woman, in a position like yours, to you promote women enough in your | :03:30. | :03:34. | |
own mind? Do you recruit enough women who are of merit to do the | :03:34. | :03:40. | |
job? I do. I know I do. At the Southbank Centre, we're a huge | :03:40. | :03:46. | |
emplayer in terms of the arts. We have staggeringly good women and | :03:46. | :03:49. | |
good men, I should stress. On merit is correct. I also think that, as a | :03:50. | :03:54. | |
woman, I can spot a woman's potential. I can spot when they are | :03:54. | :03:58. | |
self-doubting. If you hear a story about yourself often enough that | :03:58. | :04:07. | |
women cannot do things, it is easy to internalise that and say, "I can | :04:07. | :04:13. | |
do it." I am trying to say "ambition" is not a dirty woman for | :04:13. | :04:21. | |
a woman. Are you a feminist as well? It is one of the posed posed | :04:21. | :04:27. | |
- can a woman wear high heels? think that a feminist can really do | :04:27. | :04:32. | |
anything they want to. I don't think there's a rule book. There is | :04:32. | :04:35. | |
not a rule book about what feminists should or shouldn't be | :04:35. | :04:40. | |
like or look like. What feminists are, are people who believe in | :04:40. | :04:44. | |
equality for women. It is as simple as that. You have to believe that | :04:44. | :04:48. | |
women are entitled to an equal share of what is available in the | :04:48. | :04:54. | |
world to realise their potential. That is not the same as saying men | :04:54. | :05:03. | |
and women are identical in every way. In fact, I was watching the | :05:03. | :05:07. | |
other day a wonderful documentary about the West Indian cricket team | :05:07. | :05:11. | |
and looking at how they had really set out to demonstrate that the | :05:11. | :05:17. | |
notion of racism in sport, ie, who could achieve and who couldn't was | :05:17. | :05:21. | |
something that eventually white and black together came around to say, | :05:21. | :05:26. | |
this has to change. I am keen that men should support their wives, | :05:26. | :05:29. | |
their daughters to have equal opportunities. You have a lot of | :05:29. | :05:35. | |
men at this festival too? We have men at this too. Absolutely, yes! | :05:35. | :05:38. | |
Grantham was home to Britain's first and only woman Prime Minister, | :05:38. | :05:41. | |
Margaret Thatcher. We will have more on her later in the programme. | :05:41. | :05:47. | |
What are the female first can be attributed to the town? Was it home | :05:47. | :05:52. | |
to the first women to be a firefighter, a brain surgeon, an | :05:52. | :05:56. | |
astronaut, or a police officer? An interesting question. We will | :05:56. | :06:03. | |
give you the correct answer at the end of the show. What price | :06:03. | :06:06. | |
culture? The Arts Council distributed �310 million of | :06:06. | :06:11. | |
taxpayers' money in 2012 and 2013, slashed by �40 million on the | :06:11. | :06:16. | |
previous financial year. Should arts be subsidised at all? This is | :06:16. | :06:22. | |
at a time public services are being cut? Our guest of the day thinks so. | :06:22. | :06:32. | |
:06:32. | :06:32. | ||
But Philip Booth from the institute of artistic affairs begs to differ. | :06:32. | :06:39. | |
London's South Bank - vibrant art to satisfy our cultural yearnings. | :06:39. | :06:44. | |
It comes at a price. Whether we like it or not. | :06:44. | :06:49. | |
Those who wish to cut Government funding of the arts are branded | :06:49. | :06:55. | |
fill stiens or ignorant. Culture is supposed to broaden the mind, yet | :06:55. | :06:59. | |
it appears some people are incapable of holding a rational | :06:59. | :07:06. | |
argument. Before 1946 the Government's funding of the arts | :07:06. | :07:10. | |
took off. England's rich tradition developed funding. Art had to | :07:10. | :07:15. | |
appeal to the people rather than to the Government or bureaucrats N the | :07:15. | :07:18. | |
16th century, British theatre developed a public acclaim, | :07:18. | :07:26. | |
precisely because it had to appeal to the public. | :07:26. | :07:34. | |
In his day Shakes-Drayton was commercially successful and pop -- | :07:34. | :07:38. | |
Shakespeare was commercially success and popular. | :07:38. | :07:43. | |
Is state-funding the only option now? The Globe does not receive | :07:43. | :07:47. | |
state funding and its ticket prices are no higher than those of the | :07:47. | :07:54. | |
Royal Shake peers Company. The Gilbert hall, the Fitwilliam - the | :07:55. | :07:58. | |
list of cultural institutions which to which this age gave rise without | :07:58. | :08:04. | |
Government support is endless. In contrast, what does the Arts | :08:04. | :08:09. | |
Council do for us? It centralises state funding. 50% of its money is | :08:09. | :08:14. | |
spent in London. 3% in the eastern region of England. 3% in the East | :08:15. | :08:19. | |
Midlands and 5% in the North-East. It spends about as much on | :08:19. | :08:23. | |
administration as it does on these three regions of England put | :08:23. | :08:28. | |
together. After much-resisted cuts, the Arts Council will have nearly | :08:28. | :08:34. | |
one employee for every �1 million given out in tpwrapbtds. In 2008, | :08:34. | :08:39. | |
the Arts Council had 50 communication officers, no wonder | :08:39. | :08:43. | |
it is such a good advocate. The state cries out for private funding | :08:43. | :08:50. | |
and raises costs. Would it not be a sign of a less fill stien nation if | :08:50. | :08:54. | |
those who consumed the arts had a more active interest in their | :08:54. | :08:57. | |
support? Can the arts survive without state funding? Not if it | :08:57. | :09:01. | |
wants to reach as many people as possible with the rich programme | :09:01. | :09:06. | |
which has made Britain famous. I do agree with the last point, that | :09:06. | :09:11. | |
those who consume the arts, some of them, if they have the ability, | :09:11. | :09:16. | |
could be greater in terms of their fill lan introduce pi. We have at | :09:16. | :09:22. | |
the end of our society some very rich people, for whom the patronage | :09:22. | :09:25. | |
of the arts is not a normal activity like in the States. I | :09:25. | :09:31. | |
would not recommend what they do in the States, which is basically... | :09:31. | :09:35. | |
The theatres, certainly in London seem to be packed most nights. | :09:35. | :09:38. | |
There are a lot of people willing to pay. Why don't people at the | :09:38. | :09:43. | |
better end off end of the scale give more of their income to the | :09:43. | :09:49. | |
arts? I think the habit, which did support a lot of the 17th, 18th and | :09:49. | :09:56. | |
19th century work, the habit has not been - it has not got into the | :09:56. | :10:00. | |
blood stream in the British culture, in the way it does in America. The | :10:00. | :10:05. | |
downside of America is if their national endowment scheme starts to | :10:05. | :10:10. | |
fall, as it has by billions, or if people are short of cash, which | :10:10. | :10:14. | |
they are, actually it fractures and collapses. The American mod sl a | :10:14. | :10:19. | |
very poor one to use -- model is a very poor one to use. The UK has | :10:19. | :10:29. | |
:10:29. | :10:29. | ||
one of the most sophisticated and arts structures in the world. The | :10:29. | :10:34. | |
amount of cash generates is enormous. Can taxpayers afford it? | :10:34. | :10:43. | |
I think they can. 25p a week from each taxpayer goes on the arts. | :10:43. | :10:49. | |
There are free museums, free galleries. Had he filmed yesterday, | :10:49. | :10:55. | |
thousands of people were coming for the Restless Noise Festival, which | :10:55. | :11:00. | |
for �25 for a weekend gives them classes, workshops, debates, | :11:00. | :11:04. | |
concerts, films, et cetera. A lot of those people could never afford | :11:04. | :11:08. | |
premium price tickets or tickets at any price. This is about extending | :11:08. | :11:14. | |
the value of the arts for the many, not the few. We don't want | :11:14. | :11:20. | |
education for the few, we don't want arts for the few. Jude Kelly | :11:20. | :11:24. | |
says taxpayers can afford to subsidise the arts and should | :11:24. | :11:28. | |
continue to do so because of the money that is generated as a result. | :11:28. | :11:32. | |
Well, this is not a matter of affordability. It is a matter of | :11:32. | :11:36. | |
what is the best way to finance the arts, whether they should be | :11:36. | :11:40. | |
financed through taxation and through, if you like, bureaucratic | :11:40. | :11:44. | |
control of the arts industry, or whether they should be financed by | :11:44. | :11:49. | |
those who consume the arts, those who wish to contribute to the arts. | :11:49. | :11:54. | |
There is evidence which suggests when you get taxpayer financing of | :11:54. | :11:59. | |
the arts it raises the cost-base. It does not raise opportunities for | :11:59. | :12:04. | |
people to attend the arts at all. It crowds out private funding, | :12:04. | :12:08. | |
which is low in this country. Without state funding, it would | :12:08. | :12:12. | |
collapse. We would not have the range of arts we have. For example, | :12:12. | :12:16. | |
we might go back to the environment which existed in the UK before the | :12:16. | :12:20. | |
Arts Council started to hugely increase Government funding on the | :12:20. | :12:29. | |
arts, in 1946. I don't see that as a cultural desert at all. You would | :12:29. | :12:34. | |
end up without all the theatres, all the ballet companies. You would | :12:34. | :12:39. | |
not have any of the art output, which is so produce livic around | :12:39. | :12:46. | |
the country. These companies are doing work | :12:46. | :12:52. | |
which could not be paid for by those giving money. Those who love | :12:52. | :12:57. | |
the arts, let's take Wagner. People will go and pay a fortune for it, | :12:57. | :13:01. | |
because that is what they do with their money. You want to say that | :13:01. | :13:05. | |
opera is as form, as in Italy when it started, should be there for | :13:05. | :13:11. | |
everyone. I don't think the only way subsidy should be there for the | :13:11. | :13:14. | |
arts - I think the arts looks at what we believe civil society | :13:14. | :13:18. | |
should be about, that is not just a trickle down from above. Civil | :13:18. | :13:23. | |
society should not be captured by the state. Arts and culture should | :13:23. | :13:27. | |
be embedded within civil society, rather than provided to civil | :13:27. | :13:33. | |
society by the state. In Italy, you talk about state funding and opera | :13:33. | :13:37. | |
available to everybody. If you look at those institutions which are | :13:37. | :13:41. | |
most heavily reliant on state funding, they are no more | :13:41. | :13:48. | |
accessible to the ordinary individual on average earnings to | :13:48. | :13:52. | |
those individuals. At the Southbank Centre we reach millions of people. | :13:52. | :13:56. | |
Millions of whom are on low incomes. They could not afford it and they | :13:56. | :13:59. | |
would not be able to be included as well. If you said, unless you are | :14:00. | :14:08. | |
interested you could not do that. As in Shakespeare's day. | :14:08. | :14:12. | |
That's not true T monarchy was the state at the time. It is not true. | :14:12. | :14:17. | |
You two, I know, could talk about this for hours. Thank you for doing | :14:17. | :14:21. | |
the film. Tens of thousands of police officers voted for the right | :14:21. | :14:26. | |
to take industrial action. 45,000 of the Police Federation members | :14:26. | :14:30. | |
voted yes. 10,000 voted no. The measure was defeated as the | :14:30. | :14:34. | |
federation needs a majority of members to vote in favour for a | :14:34. | :14:39. | |
change of the law. More than half didn't take part in the vote. As | :14:39. | :14:42. | |
servants of the Crown, policemen don't have the right to strike. In | :14:42. | :14:46. | |
a moment, we will be joined by Damian Green. First let's speak to | :14:46. | :14:51. | |
the chair of the Police Federation. There just wasn't enough support | :14:51. | :15:01. | |
:15:01. | :15:06. | ||
amongst your members. Not enough It sends a clear message to | :15:06. | :15:09. | |
Government that 81% of the people who voted, over a third of police | :15:09. | :15:13. | |
officers in England and Wales, wish to seek the right for industrial | :15:13. | :15:17. | |
action. Now they're concerned, they're very angry and disappointed | :15:17. | :15:20. | |
at what this Government is doing to the Police Service. What about all | :15:20. | :15:25. | |
the people who didn't come and vote? They obviously disagree. | :15:25. | :15:29. | |
that's not necessarily the case. I didn't wish to comment on why | :15:29. | :15:32. | |
people haven't voted but the significant number - if you compare | :15:32. | :15:37. | |
that to the relation of Police and Crime Commissioners election, 34% | :15:37. | :15:39. | |
of police officers are extremely annoyed about what the Government | :15:40. | :15:42. | |
are doing and we need to engage and I think the Government needs to | :15:42. | :15:47. | |
take a clear message of what this actually means. We will ask, we are | :15:47. | :15:50. | |
going to ask the Government in a moment. I come back to the numbers | :15:50. | :15:54. | |
that didn't vote. Why do you think they didn't? Well, it was my job to | :15:54. | :15:57. | |
make sure that officers up and down the country in the months that led | :15:57. | :16:01. | |
up to the ballot taking place were provided with sufficient detail and | :16:01. | :16:06. | |
that took all different formats, from video recordings, to messages, | :16:06. | :16:09. | |
to e-mails, to literature, so that when they cast their vote they did | :16:09. | :16:13. | |
so from an informed position. That was very, very important because it | :16:13. | :16:16. | |
is of such significant importance. Right. I come back to this point | :16:16. | :16:21. | |
again. They felt they - they didn't feel strongly enough that they do | :16:21. | :16:25. | |
want the right to strike or don't feel strongly enough about the | :16:25. | :16:28. | |
Government's reforms, unlike the rest of the members who did which | :16:28. | :16:33. | |
means off divided federation or members of the federation. Well, we | :16:33. | :16:37. | |
have an awful lot of officers who feel very strongly about what's | :16:37. | :16:39. | |
happening to the Police Service. I do think the Government need to | :16:39. | :16:44. | |
take heed of that message. Thank you. | :16:44. | :16:50. | |
Damian Green is here now. Not enough people came out to vote in | :16:50. | :16:53. | |
this particular ballot. But the strength of feeling as Steve | :16:53. | :16:55. | |
Williams described must be worrying for the Government, particularly | :16:55. | :16:58. | |
for a Tory-led Government? I am conscious of the strength of | :16:58. | :17:03. | |
feeling which is what you would expect at a time where we have had | :17:03. | :17:07. | |
to keep pay down, we have had to reform pensions and so on. But it's | :17:07. | :17:12. | |
hugely encouraging that two thirds of police officers don't even want | :17:12. | :17:15. | |
to contemplate the right to strike. That's very sensible, they do an | :17:15. | :17:18. | |
important job. They're doing it successfully, crime is down 10% in | :17:18. | :17:22. | |
the first two years of this Government. We can take this as a | :17:22. | :17:26. | |
step to move forward with the sensible talks we have to have. | :17:26. | :17:30. | |
That doesn't mean those people who decided not to vote doesn't mean | :17:30. | :17:34. | |
they're supporting your reforms if the Police Federation is right. You | :17:34. | :17:39. | |
have got a significant number of police officers, 45,000 who wanted | :17:39. | :17:43. | |
to seek the trite strike. That's -- the right to strike. That's a | :17:43. | :17:45. | |
dramatic move by those police officers for the first time in this | :17:45. | :17:49. | |
country, even if the others stayed at home and are unhappy still about | :17:49. | :17:53. | |
what you are doing. Some of the others actively voted against. I | :17:53. | :17:56. | |
think the issue of the right to strike has been put to bed. The | :17:56. | :18:03. | |
police... Is that it now? It seems to be so. They've had this ballot | :18:03. | :18:07. | |
and the Police Federation sensibly set a 50% hurdle that they needed | :18:07. | :18:12. | |
half the membership to vote yes to proceed with negotiations. I I | :18:12. | :18:14. | |
think that's sensible. Trade unions should perhaps take some lessons | :18:14. | :18:17. | |
from that. How would you characterise relationships between | :18:17. | :18:22. | |
the government and police? They're fragile because of all the | :18:22. | :18:28. | |
necessary measures swre had to take. The police budget is �14 billion a | :18:28. | :18:33. | |
year. A time where we have to be tough on the public finances, the | :18:33. | :18:38. | |
police have had to take their share. You still see them as the last | :18:38. | :18:40. | |
unreformed public service as someone said about the police? | :18:40. | :18:45. | |
someone, but not me said that. don't believe that? Precisely | :18:45. | :18:49. | |
because we have been embarking on huge reforms. Not just to pay and | :18:49. | :18:51. | |
pensions, which is what obviously the officers themselves are | :18:51. | :18:57. | |
concerned on, but introduced the College of Policing, Police and | :18:57. | :19:00. | |
Crime Commissioners, we are introducing the National Crime | :19:00. | :19:02. | |
Agency, so big reforms that allow the police to get better at their | :19:02. | :19:06. | |
very vital job. As I say, they are doing it well at the moment. The | :19:06. | :19:09. | |
figures show that crime is coming down. You have said relations are | :19:09. | :19:13. | |
fragile. What are you doing to improve those relations? Talking in | :19:13. | :19:17. | |
practical terms on a regular basis to the Police Federation and to | :19:17. | :19:21. | |
other ranks, but also making it easier for the police to do the job | :19:21. | :19:25. | |
they all join up to do, stripping away the bureaucracy, stopping some | :19:25. | :19:28. | |
of the unnecessary form-filling. Thousands of them don't understand | :19:28. | :19:32. | |
it, clearly, otherwise they wouldn't have voted in this | :19:32. | :19:36. | |
election. It's not so much they don't understand, they understand | :19:36. | :19:39. | |
perfectly what's going on. They don't like it. Nobody is happy... | :19:39. | :19:43. | |
You haven't brought them on board is what I am saying. Nobody is | :19:43. | :19:47. | |
unhappy when they have a two-year pay freeze or pensions have to be | :19:47. | :19:50. | |
reformed. That's not surprising. What's significant about the result | :19:50. | :19:55. | |
is that even with all of those necessary pressures, two thirds of | :19:55. | :19:57. | |
the Police Federation members decided they didn't even want to | :19:58. | :20:02. | |
negotiate about the right to strike. I think we can draw a line here and | :20:02. | :20:06. | |
say let's go forward. The reforms are making police better in this | :20:06. | :20:09. | |
country. We can have sensible talks with the Police Federation. Do you | :20:10. | :20:13. | |
think the reforms are the right way to go in terms of the police? | :20:13. | :20:18. | |
just thinking that the critical thing for a lay person like myself | :20:18. | :20:23. | |
and the public is that you arrive at a police force who are motivated, | :20:23. | :20:31. | |
vocational, committed, and progressive. The last thing you | :20:31. | :20:35. | |
want is a hard done by feeling amongst police who, whether they | :20:35. | :20:39. | |
strike or not, might feel that they're undervalued by us and we | :20:39. | :20:42. | |
only have the Government to value them. We can't personally value | :20:42. | :20:46. | |
them. I think the thing I most feel about this is that it's not a | :20:47. | :20:51. | |
debate that's included, even though the voting for police Commissioners | :20:51. | :20:53. | |
was something that came into being, I don't think that the public, | :20:53. | :20:57. | |
generally, feel they're involved in this debate in a way they | :20:57. | :21:00. | |
understand clearly enough. That would worry me. They are our police | :21:00. | :21:09. | |
force. What do you say to that? What's important is everyone | :21:09. | :21:12. | |
recognises the police themselves and the public and that we are | :21:12. | :21:14. | |
trying to increase the professionalism of the police, | :21:14. | :21:20. | |
that's why we have the College of Policing and also introducing much | :21:20. | :21:23. | |
more transparency so things that really worry the public, | :21:23. | :21:27. | |
Hillsborough, some of the scandals like that, are seen clearly to be | :21:27. | :21:30. | |
things in the past that couldn't happen now and won't happen in the | :21:30. | :21:36. | |
future. That's the aim. You were a former immigration Minister, we are | :21:36. | :21:46. | |
:21:46. | :21:47. | ||
going to talk about immigration in the next thing, can I ask you what | :21:47. | :21:50. | |
would you like to see, new measures brought in to try and curb the | :21:50. | :21:53. | |
rights of Bulgarians and Romanians who will come later this year? | :21:53. | :21:56. | |
other Ministers are doing is making very sure that people can't come to | :21:56. | :22:00. | |
this country, whether they come from the EU or elsewhere, to | :22:00. | :22:05. | |
exploit either the benefits system or our free at the point of use | :22:05. | :22:08. | |
National Health Service, that's what really annoys people. Will | :22:08. | :22:11. | |
British citizens be affected? the work's being done. I am not | :22:11. | :22:15. | |
involved with the detailed work. Are you worried about that? That is | :22:15. | :22:19. | |
the quid pro quo, is British citizens may be affected, too. | :22:19. | :22:22. | |
People want to see a National Health Service that is not an | :22:23. | :22:26. | |
international health service. They want to see a benefits system that | :22:26. | :22:29. | |
pays benefits to disadvantaged people or elderly people who | :22:29. | :22:34. | |
deserve them in this country. But which can't be exploited by people | :22:34. | :22:37. | |
coming here for that very purpose and that I know is the thrust of | :22:37. | :22:40. | |
the work going on in Government now. Don't forget, overall immigration | :22:40. | :22:45. | |
numbers are coming down. The pledge we made at the election was to | :22:45. | :22:48. | |
bring it down to tens of thousands. It's down by more than a quarter. | :22:48. | :22:56. | |
Thank you very much. There have been rumours for weeks | :22:56. | :23:01. | |
but it seems the Government have finally decided to introduce curbs | :23:01. | :23:04. | |
on benefits for migrants. It's thought any changes will need to | :23:04. | :23:07. | |
apply to Brits, as well. What are they suggesting? | :23:07. | :23:10. | |
Government sources have confirmed that Ministers are examining | :23:10. | :23:12. | |
options to restrict the amount of free healthcare the NHS provides | :23:12. | :23:16. | |
for immigrants. This could include a crackdown on | :23:16. | :23:20. | |
charging to ensure non-resident citizens pay for their NHS | :23:20. | :23:24. | |
treatment. Ministers are also considering | :23:24. | :23:29. | |
extending the what bitual residency test so migrants might have to wait | :23:29. | :23:33. | |
six months or a year before being granted residency and therefore | :23:33. | :23:36. | |
hospital care or other benefits. Cabinet sources have also confirmed | :23:36. | :23:40. | |
that the Government is looking at encouraging local councils to give | :23:40. | :23:44. | |
priority on housing waiting lists to local families ahead of any | :23:44. | :23:47. | |
outsiders. Government sources have said Ministers are prepared to | :23:47. | :23:51. | |
introduce across the board curbs on benefits for migrants in the near | :23:51. | :23:55. | |
future, which is expected to be before the Queen's Speech in May. | :23:55. | :23:58. | |
All these measures will, the Government hopes, bring the UK in | :23:59. | :24:02. | |
line with policies in other European member states, already | :24:02. | :24:08. | |
deemed legal by the European Court of Justice. I am joined by the | :24:08. | :24:12. | |
Labour MP Frank Field who co-chairs a cross-party parliamentary group | :24:12. | :24:15. | |
on balanced migration and by the Conservative MP Stewart Jackson. Is | :24:15. | :24:18. | |
Britain a soft touch for immigrants? Well, potentially yes, | :24:18. | :24:22. | |
it is. Actually, the disappointing thing is that the Government had | :24:22. | :24:26. | |
the opportunity many months ago to look at these issues and also to | :24:26. | :24:31. | |
look at the issues that arose from my ten-minute rule Bill in October | :24:31. | :24:34. | |
which was about the disapplication of the free movement directive | :24:34. | :24:39. | |
which would have copied some of of the things happening in Spain, and | :24:39. | :24:41. | |
it is important also to recognise that the free movement directive is | :24:41. | :24:45. | |
not a tablet of stone, it's a flexible legal document and | :24:45. | :24:48. | |
ministers should have been working on this months, if not years ago. | :24:48. | :24:58. | |
:24:58. | :24:59. | ||
Isn't the truth that they have been working on this? This hasn't come | :24:59. | :25:01. | |
about just as a result of the Eastleigh by-election. That may | :25:01. | :25:04. | |
have given the issue some oxygen, but Ministers have been looking at | :25:04. | :25:06. | |
what rights immigrants will have later this year in terms of access | :25:06. | :25:09. | |
to benefits? Could have followed me - we have been pressing the | :25:09. | :25:12. | |
government over the last two years on a number of fronts. First of all, | :25:12. | :25:16. | |
on health. In July last year, the Secretary of State, Jeremy Hunt, | :25:16. | :25:20. | |
agreed that our health service should should kraez to be a | :25:20. | :25:24. | |
national one and be an international one -- cease. He said | :25:24. | :25:29. | |
nothing to do with me, governor, we have a group, they've made this now | :25:29. | :25:32. | |
legal. I thought a Secretary of State's job was to stop those sorts | :25:32. | :25:36. | |
of things happening. Also over the last two years, we have been | :25:36. | :25:39. | |
lobbying the Government about access to social, what many people | :25:39. | :25:45. | |
call council housing. Again, saying you don't - local authorities don't | :25:45. | :25:49. | |
tell you to whom they're giving housing to. We are suggesting it | :25:49. | :25:52. | |
should be to British citizens. If you haven't actually registered as | :25:52. | :25:58. | |
a British citizen, should you be getting council council... Don't | :25:58. | :26:02. | |
local authorities already have some of those powers that you can favour | :26:02. | :26:06. | |
residents or locals over others? They can do but Government refuses | :26:06. | :26:10. | |
to actually make it mandatory and refuses to collect accurate data on | :26:11. | :26:15. | |
both those fronts. Both on health, and on housing. Of course, there is | :26:15. | :26:19. | |
a much bigger issue, and our welfare and health services are | :26:19. | :26:23. | |
similar to Britain in 1940. We have no defences. If you look, for | :26:24. | :26:28. | |
example, we changed our welfare state from one which started out | :26:28. | :26:33. | |
you had to contribute to one, if you prove low income you have it | :26:33. | :26:37. | |
and that's the problem of us defending welfare against movement | :26:38. | :26:41. | |
of Labour in Europe. Why has the Government been reluctant to tackle | :26:41. | :26:44. | |
this, bearing in mind they've had this target which they're getting | :26:44. | :26:49. | |
closer to of reducing immigration to tens of thousands, wouldn't this | :26:49. | :26:52. | |
have fitted, even though it is obviously within the EU and they | :26:52. | :26:55. | |
can't stop the movement of people, even if they wanted to, why hasn't | :26:55. | :27:00. | |
the Government grasped this issue? There's been a lack of political | :27:01. | :27:05. | |
will, frankly. They are beholden to lawyers who say you can't do it | :27:05. | :27:12. | |
because it will fall foul. Does it fall foul? I understood there were | :27:12. | :27:15. | |
powers for the National Health Service, obviously not on accident | :27:15. | :27:18. | |
and emergency grounds but on general grounds they don't have to | :27:18. | :27:22. | |
do this without some sort of pay up front and the same with local | :27:22. | :27:26. | |
councils. The thing is let's take a chance on it, because if we | :27:26. | :27:29. | |
actually invoke the caveat in the free movement directive on public | :27:29. | :27:35. | |
good, public security, public health, it will take 18 months to | :27:35. | :27:38. | |
get to the European Court of justice to be tested. Is this being | :27:38. | :27:44. | |
blown out of proportion? We don't have figures for the numbers of | :27:44. | :27:49. | |
Bulgarians and Romanians... We do. We don't know exactly. Swre had | :27:49. | :27:52. | |
Government -- we have had Government Ministers saying it's | :27:52. | :27:57. | |
impossible to collect data and why scaremonger. The Government's own | :27:57. | :28:00. | |
data shows there is 150,000 Romanians and Bulgarians here | :28:00. | :28:03. | |
already claiming to be self- employed. The Government doesn't | :28:03. | :28:06. | |
know where they are. Doesn't know whether they are self-employed, | :28:07. | :28:10. | |
doesn't know whether they're claiming benefits. This is what I | :28:10. | :28:14. | |
mean when I said earlier there are no defences. What we have seen in | :28:14. | :28:18. | |
our welfare state is moved from one where you had to prove contribution, | :28:19. | :28:24. | |
to one where you get it if you can prove need. There is no defence in | :28:24. | :28:29. | |
European law against that, because as anybody - any Brit can turn up | :28:29. | :28:33. | |
in those circumstances, we have to offer the same services to people | :28:33. | :28:37. | |
who actually come to this country. We have to be robust as they are in | :28:37. | :28:41. | |
Spain where they have a registration scheme. They're using | :28:41. | :28:46. | |
the free movement directive to the enth degree and we have to do that | :28:46. | :28:50. | |
to protect public services and our employment market. What about | :28:50. | :28:53. | |
changes that will affect British citizens and their rights to claim? | :28:53. | :28:57. | |
Are you not worried about that? don't think they have quite the | :28:57. | :29:02. | |
same impab on the jobs -- impact on the jobs market. The fact that we | :29:02. | :29:07. | |
had unplanned an unrestriked EU my -- unrestricted EU migration has | :29:07. | :29:17. | |
:29:17. | :29:19. | ||
contributed to the embedding of welfare dependency and unskilled | :29:19. | :29:22. | |
people being on benefits, rather than in work. I think that needs to | :29:22. | :29:24. | |
be looked at holistically as inissue that we are going to have | :29:24. | :29:27. | |
again with Romanians and Bulgarians if we are not careful. Is this | :29:27. | :29:29. | |
something you are worried about? Yes, I hope we don't get to the | :29:29. | :29:31. | |
stage where Romanians and Bulgarians stand in for a sort of | :29:31. | :29:35. | |
catch-all phrase that means they're bad, because that quickly becomes | :29:35. | :29:39. | |
racism. You are talking about specific policies that suggest | :29:39. | :29:45. | |
people can actually - can come here and claim benefits. Broadly | :29:45. | :29:48. | |
speaking, I think that I am completely with you on the fact | :29:48. | :29:53. | |
that - I remember with Barking, how much we suddenly realised there was | :29:53. | :29:57. | |
a wake-up call where you thought that if people in Barking cannot | :29:57. | :30:00. | |
plan for their family's future and don't know what economic | :30:00. | :30:03. | |
possibilities their children can have, this is going to produce | :30:03. | :30:13. | |
:30:13. | :30:14. | ||
massive chaos in terms of social integration. Labour didn't deal | :30:14. | :30:17. | |
with it at the time. I hope we will make a clear statement that we want | :30:17. | :30:22. | |
to move welfare from one where you prove need to one where you have to | :30:22. | :30:25. | |
prove contribution. That's what we actually set out to have and | :30:25. | :30:29. | |
without any approval of the electorate at all, we have changed | :30:29. | :30:32. | |
welfare from the contributory basis, to if you can prove need, you get | :30:32. | :30:42. | |
:30:42. | :30:48. | ||
There's no evidence that the leadership of the Labour Party - | :30:48. | :30:52. | |
that the Leader of the Labour Party is at all committed, authentically | :30:52. | :30:57. | |
to these issues. Frank has taken the right attitude and given the | :30:57. | :31:06. | |
right cause. I don't trust Labour on migration. Are you confident? | :31:06. | :31:12. | |
am saying what my position over the decades has been on this. | :31:12. | :31:18. | |
Labour leadership? First of all, the threat now of a mass migration | :31:18. | :31:22. | |
from Bulgaria and Romania gives the Government the opportunity to | :31:22. | :31:25. | |
change the nature of our welfare state. Similarly, it is a challenge | :31:25. | :31:31. | |
to the Labour side about whether in fact they want to see a welfare | :31:31. | :31:36. | |
state based on contributions that people build it up by their own | :31:36. | :31:42. | |
residency or whether we continue as we have since 1979 of giving out | :31:42. | :31:49. | |
welfare if you can prove need. not holding my breath. You have | :31:49. | :31:53. | |
been consistently on line, but I think you are right - welfare is an | :31:53. | :31:57. | |
issue we need to look at. I have to say the Prime Minister down needs | :31:57. | :32:00. | |
to look at this because it is a political imperative for my party | :32:00. | :32:06. | |
too. Thank you both very much. There's a bitter row brewing in | :32:06. | :32:11. | |
Grantham about plans for a statue of the town's most famous daughter | :32:11. | :32:14. | |
- Baroness Thatcher. Visit today and you will see little sign of the | :32:14. | :32:18. | |
former Prime Minister, just a small plaque on her father's grocer's | :32:18. | :32:25. | |
shop and a display in the local museum. The council voted for plans | :32:25. | :32:31. | |
for a new statue on Friday. Labour voted for it and the Tory majority | :32:31. | :32:41. | |
:32:41. | :32:46. | ||
against. Confused? We are. We asked for an interview. We are joined by | :32:46. | :32:51. | |
Ray Wootten. We have planned in place, but with Baroness Thatcher | :32:51. | :32:56. | |
being 87, we hope she lives a much longer time. Do you think it is | :32:56. | :32:59. | |
unseemingly to be discussing these kind of things while she is still | :32:59. | :33:07. | |
alive? We do. We have plans in place, but they are confidential at | :33:07. | :33:12. | |
the moment. You cannot give us guidance about what you are | :33:12. | :33:19. | |
considering? As much as I want to, I can't. Why do you think the issue | :33:19. | :33:21. | |
of Margaret Thatcher is controversial for you? What I was | :33:22. | :33:26. | |
pleased about was to hear that Labour did actually admire Margaret | :33:26. | :33:33. | |
Thatcher. They did support all her views and, clearly, she actually | :33:33. | :33:36. | |
put the great back into Great Britain. Are you sure Labour | :33:37. | :33:45. | |
supported all her views? I am sure they don't all of them. Some of the | :33:45. | :33:48. | |
Labour councillors said should a statue come to Grantham the best | :33:48. | :33:53. | |
thing for that statue would be to crush it up and fill the potholes | :33:53. | :33:59. | |
in, which I think is quite disgraceful. We will ask Labour to | :33:59. | :34:04. | |
give us their views about Margaret Thatcher on another occasion. It | :34:04. | :34:08. | |
will seem strange that Labour are promoting this idea. They think it | :34:08. | :34:12. | |
will be good for tourism? With the county council elections coming up, | :34:12. | :34:17. | |
this is a move by the local Labour leader to gain publicity for | :34:17. | :34:22. | |
herself. You think it is playing politics then? I do. We had the | :34:22. | :34:26. | |
budget meeting on Friday. They made an amendment, knowing we would have | :34:26. | :34:31. | |
to oppose it and we are putting our own amendment before that to carry | :34:31. | :34:36. | |
on doing the research to see what we could do in the event that day | :34:36. | :34:40. | |
does come. We all hope that Baroness Thatcher lives a long, | :34:40. | :34:46. | |
long life. Thank you. Jude Kelly - a statue in her home town? I am all | :34:46. | :34:50. | |
for women in public life being recognised N terms of who has | :34:50. | :34:53. | |
written history and who is known to have existed, I think Margaret | :34:53. | :34:59. | |
Thatcher has earned her place. I am not very keen on public statues | :34:59. | :35:03. | |
because pigeons land on them. My thought is, I wonder what artist | :35:03. | :35:10. | |
would get to do this statue. I thought Tracey Emem because she is | :35:10. | :35:14. | |
a Conservative supporter. I think wasing of the angel of the north | :35:14. | :35:19. | |
and can you have a Margaret Thatcher of Grantham of that scale? | :35:19. | :35:25. | |
What scale would it need to be to be a tourist interest. What would | :35:25. | :35:31. | |
be a fitting tribute to Margaret Thatcher? I don't know, I was going | :35:31. | :35:37. | |
to say a digital game. A digital game. I would be intrigued to know | :35:37. | :35:42. | |
your ideas for that one! I don't know. I know that public statues | :35:42. | :35:47. | |
have a short life. Eric Morecambe, there he is in Morecambe bay, and | :35:48. | :35:53. | |
God bless him, I don't think it attracts the tourists, it is for | :35:53. | :36:03. | |
:36:03. | :36:08. | ||
them to sit and eat their sandwiches under and go, Who is | :36:08. | :36:14. | |
this again? I just want to think that actually women in public life | :36:14. | :36:19. | |
need to be spoken of. Whatever we thought of their views, I think she | :36:19. | :36:23. | |
was a very, very dominant figure, not just in this country but across | :36:23. | :36:27. | |
the world. We will be left with the thought of Margaret Thatcher and a | :36:27. | :36:32. | |
digital game then. I will try and invent it for the creative | :36:32. | :36:36. | |
industries. Last week, politics was dominated by the Eastleigh by- | :36:36. | :36:39. | |
election. Let's look at the Westminster in-tray for the week | :36:40. | :36:43. | |
ahead. Later today the Justice and Security Bill, including bills for | :36:43. | :36:48. | |
secret courts will be debated. Also today Liam Byrne launch's Labour's | :36:48. | :36:51. | |
campaign against the so-called bedroom tax at a press conference | :36:52. | :36:54. | |
in Hull. On Tuesday, the Health Select Committee hears evidence | :36:54. | :36:59. | |
from David Nicholson on the Mid Staffordshire NHS Foundation Trust | :36:59. | :37:03. | |
public inquiry. Several MPs have signed a motion calling for Mr | :37:03. | :37:09. | |
Nicholson to resign from his post, giving his previous role as chief | :37:09. | :37:12. | |
executive of West Midlands strategic health authority. On | :37:12. | :37:15. | |
Wednesday Ed Miliband will attempt to address voter concerns on | :37:15. | :37:19. | |
immigration ahead of a speech by the Shadow Home Secretary, Yvette | :37:19. | :37:24. | |
Cooper, on Thursday. Also on Thursday, the Bank of England's | :37:24. | :37:28. | |
monetary committee gives the latest decision on UK interest rates. It | :37:28. | :37:34. | |
is the fourth anniversary of rates reaching the low of 0.5%. On Friday, | :37:34. | :37:40. | |
the Lib Dem's spring conference begins, with a rally of the party | :37:40. | :37:44. | |
favourite. Joining me is George Parker and the Independent's Oliver | :37:44. | :37:50. | |
Wright. Welcome to you both. Oliver Wright, do you think these measures | :37:50. | :37:53. | |
being discussed by the Government to curb immigration from Bulgaria | :37:53. | :37:57. | |
and Romania will work? I think there's some significant problems | :37:57. | :38:00. | |
that the Government have got. If you look at the stories around | :38:00. | :38:04. | |
yesterday about how they were going to curb the use of the NHS, it | :38:04. | :38:08. | |
leads to the question of how on earth will you do that? Will you | :38:08. | :38:11. | |
turn doctors into policemen? Questioning the entitlement of | :38:11. | :38:16. | |
these people as they come in with a broken leg or whatever it might be? | :38:16. | :38:19. | |
I suspect medical leaders would not be entirely happy with that. | :38:19. | :38:24. | |
Clearly the symbolism is important. I think the practical nature of how | :38:24. | :38:29. | |
you actually either curtail benefits or curtail intitlement | :38:29. | :38:33. | |
will be tricky for the Government. What is interesting is some of the | :38:33. | :38:38. | |
things being talked about have been given oxygen since the Eastleigh | :38:38. | :38:41. | |
by-election, because immigration was deemed a big issue. Are many of | :38:41. | :38:45. | |
these measures in place and not used by local councils and the NHS? | :38:45. | :38:50. | |
There's an element of. That it was interesting to see David Cameron | :38:50. | :38:55. | |
saying the party would not lure too much the right and then we've had | :38:55. | :38:58. | |
stories about Britain tightening up the rules on benefit claimants. Yes, | :38:58. | :39:03. | |
it is true. A lot of the things they are talking about in this | :39:03. | :39:07. | |
Cabinet sub committee about restricting the pull factors are | :39:07. | :39:12. | |
things that councils, EU rules allow for, which have not been | :39:12. | :39:15. | |
implemented. The danger for the Government is introducing a raft of | :39:16. | :39:20. | |
new regulations which make it harder for British people to claim | :39:20. | :39:26. | |
benefits and taxes for the benefit of stopping a few Romanians and | :39:26. | :39:30. | |
Bulgarians. Like ID cards all over again. We know how that ended. | :39:30. | :39:35. | |
that issue then, how much do you think Brits may be affected by | :39:35. | :39:41. | |
attempted changes, if they are legally allowed? If you take the | :39:41. | :39:43. | |
NHS issue, the department this morning is very much playing down | :39:43. | :39:50. | |
the idea of ID cards. That was around for a while. Most people who | :39:50. | :39:56. | |
went down that particular line have been urging caution. A, it would | :39:56. | :40:00. | |
cost a huge amount of money. One thing they don't have is money. It | :40:00. | :40:06. | |
would reach the same kind of opposition. If people say we have | :40:06. | :40:11. | |
an entitlement card for the NHS does that lead on to an ID card? | :40:11. | :40:16. | |
All these rules don't just apply to Bulgarian and Romanian, they would | :40:16. | :40:22. | |
have to apply to French, German, Spanish. A lot of people on the | :40:22. | :40:25. | |
Costa Del Sol have free access to the Spanish health service. The | :40:25. | :40:29. | |
European Court of Justice will uphold the rules on the movement of | :40:29. | :40:32. | |
people across the European Union. They have to be careful about how | :40:32. | :40:38. | |
they approach this. What about the bedroom tax? Is it a tax? It's not | :40:38. | :40:43. | |
a tax. It is more withdraw the benefits. Labour will make a | :40:43. | :40:45. | |
campaign about this with some justification. They will point out | :40:45. | :40:50. | |
that people who will lose their benefits if they have a spare room | :40:50. | :40:54. | |
are meant to be encouraged to be moing into a smaller place and end | :40:54. | :40:58. | |
the problem of underoccupancy. There are not the available smaller | :40:58. | :41:01. | |
homes for them to move into, which one of the reasons the Government | :41:01. | :41:05. | |
has put �500 million worth of savings. You can see why Labour are | :41:05. | :41:09. | |
making a campaign about this. Ultimately the Conservative Party, | :41:09. | :41:12. | |
under the coalition party, will say if you don't get the money for this, | :41:12. | :41:17. | |
where will you get it from? Go you think it will be an effective | :41:17. | :41:21. | |
way of saving money and cutting the welfare bill? They are talking | :41:21. | :41:25. | |
about saving �500 million. The reason they are doing that is they | :41:25. | :41:29. | |
know people will not move out of houses with a spare room because | :41:29. | :41:34. | |
theer houses and flats are not available to them. George Osborne | :41:34. | :41:38. | |
desperately needs the money off. Politically it is damaging to the | :41:38. | :41:41. | |
Government. Ed Miliband has been successful. We are all talking | :41:41. | :41:46. | |
about a bedroom tax, as you rightly point out, it is not a tax. Labour | :41:46. | :41:50. | |
have a whole series of campaigns in the run-up to April. Remember in | :41:50. | :41:54. | |
April we get the 1% updating in benefits. We get the maximum amount | :41:54. | :41:59. | |
you can claim. You get the hoal councils are going to lose money in | :41:59. | :42:04. | |
the amount they can pay in council tax benefit. There is a whole thing | :42:04. | :42:08. | |
coming down the track, not to mention the beginning of universal | :42:08. | :42:13. | |
credit, which could make life uncomfortable for the Government. | :42:13. | :42:19. | |
It starts to sound to some people in Middle England, targeting voters. | :42:19. | :42:24. | |
It plays well with traditional Labour voters. Thank you very much. | :42:24. | :42:29. | |
Joining me for the rest of the programme we have the Tory MP Glenn | :42:29. | :42:39. | |
:42:39. | :42:44. | ||
Glenn Glenn, -- John Glenn, Steve Reed and Tom Brake. It is a | :42:44. | :42:48. | |
question of... Are they achievable? Are they affordable at this point | :42:48. | :42:53. | |
in time? It would be irresponsible to say yes... It would be | :42:53. | :42:58. | |
irresponsible, did you say? If you cannot see how they would stimulate | :42:58. | :43:01. | |
the economy quickly enough to avoid interest rates going up. If the | :43:01. | :43:04. | |
markets are not confident that interest rates, interest rates | :43:04. | :43:07. | |
could go up and you will have problems with mortgages and the | :43:07. | :43:10. | |
integrity of the Government's economic policy would be in | :43:10. | :43:15. | |
question. There's no growth or very little over the past year. So, why | :43:15. | :43:21. | |
not as people in your party are saying, well, let's try tax cuts? | :43:21. | :43:25. | |
Because they have to be funded. If you make that move on tax cuts, you | :43:26. | :43:31. | |
also have to have further cuts elsewhere to justify that. You have | :43:31. | :43:40. | |
got to gain a political census across -- consensus across... | :43:40. | :43:43. | |
don't think George Osborne should do anything? That is not what I | :43:43. | :43:47. | |
said. In terms of tax cuts? should try. Which ones? Where he | :43:47. | :43:51. | |
can see it will have the maximum stimulus on the economy. Where | :43:51. | :43:55. | |
would you like to see them? I would like to see further ones to | :43:55. | :43:59. | |
corporation tax. We need to see more investment in jobs. Do you | :43:59. | :44:02. | |
agree with that? Of course the Government is implementing a tax | :44:02. | :44:07. | |
cut on the first April. If you are a millionaire you will get on | :44:07. | :44:11. | |
average �100,000 back in a tax cut, while they are increasing taxes on | :44:11. | :44:15. | |
ordinary people with things like the increase on VAT. Would you | :44:15. | :44:19. | |
agree with corporation tax - a cut in it? At the moment there's not | :44:19. | :44:24. | |
enough to fund the services we need. I think we need to look at growth | :44:24. | :44:27. | |
and from that growth deriver further revenues to fund things | :44:27. | :44:31. | |
like tax cuts and investments. Labour does want and has been | :44:31. | :44:36. | |
proposing tax cuts or would like to see a cut in VAT. We would like to | :44:36. | :44:41. | |
see a national insurance holiday. They want to spend money. One thing | :44:41. | :44:45. | |
Labour has proposed is a mansion tax on properties worth over �2 | :44:45. | :44:48. | |
million in order to fund the reintroduction of the 10p rate of | :44:48. | :44:52. | |
tax, so people on lower incomes are paying less. That seems a fair way | :44:52. | :45:02. | |
:45:02. | :45:10. | ||
The Labour Party are late on board, so to speak. If there are going to | :45:10. | :45:14. | |
be - going to be scope for tax cuts, what I would like to see is the | :45:14. | :45:16. | |
Government making yet more progress on delivering what we want to see | :45:16. | :45:20. | |
in terms of a fairer society and that is increasing the tax | :45:20. | :45:24. | |
thresholds so people on low and middle incomes - definitely going | :45:24. | :45:28. | |
to hit the �10,000 threshold by 2015. That's an area where the | :45:28. | :45:31. | |
Government can and should make progress and what that will mean, | :45:31. | :45:34. | |
because this is money going to people on low and middle incomes | :45:34. | :45:37. | |
it's money they're going to spend. We need people to spend money. They | :45:37. | :45:41. | |
will spend it on the basics and that is what we need at this time. | :45:41. | :45:45. | |
It will be a useful stimulus to the economy if you spend money raising | :45:45. | :45:48. | |
the threshold, taking more people out of tax? I think it's a policy | :45:48. | :45:52. | |
that I have always been relaxed about and the coalition is moving | :45:53. | :45:56. | |
towards the aspiration to move up to �10,000. The question is will it | :45:56. | :46:01. | |
encourage the investment decisions in jobs? The reality is that it's | :46:01. | :46:05. | |
easy to make political points around the rich paying more tax, | :46:05. | :46:10. | |
but the reality is that people need to make investment decisions in | :46:10. | :46:13. | |
businesses and if they're not making investment in jobs and in | :46:14. | :46:23. | |
:46:24. | :46:26. | ||
growth, then it's a sort of pryic victory when it's not going to have | :46:26. | :46:32. | |
an kphebgt as -- affect, as a whole. We need to look at what is we are | :46:32. | :46:36. | |
doing already. For instance, the investment in infrastructure. | :46:36. | :46:39. | |
not working in terms of growth. 55,000 jobs are going to come on | :46:40. | :46:44. | |
the back of Crossrail, we need to move forward with things like High | :46:44. | :46:47. | |
Speed 2 to ensure that investment happens. It's Africa. We need that. | :46:47. | :46:52. | |
-- it's infrastructure. We need that. Will you back Labour's | :46:52. | :46:56. | |
proposal now for a mansion tax on properties worth �2 million. | :46:56. | :47:00. | |
need to see what they say. But in practice we have been very clear | :47:00. | :47:04. | |
this may well be a Liberal Democrat commitment in a Liberal Democrat | :47:04. | :47:09. | |
manifesto in 2015. I am not going to sign up to what Labour - we have | :47:09. | :47:13. | |
to see what they've got to say. For them to come on on board now is | :47:13. | :47:18. | |
very late in the day. You came forward with a mansion tax policy. | :47:18. | :47:21. | |
Labour are now putting it forward. There will be a vote. Which way | :47:21. | :47:27. | |
will you vote? Let's wait and see precisely what they say. I think we | :47:27. | :47:30. | |
are going to get another one of those apology videos from Nick | :47:30. | :47:33. | |
Clegg when the Liberals don't vote for something that was in the | :47:33. | :47:36. | |
manifesto. The reality is of course you are in coalition, you can't | :47:36. | :47:40. | |
have everything you want. That's a pragmatic relationship of -- | :47:40. | :47:43. | |
reality of coalition. You know that. Are you happy that reports are | :47:43. | :47:46. | |
saying nearly a quarter of those due to be affected by the so-called | :47:46. | :47:50. | |
bedroom tax will be single parents? Well, I think it's very regrettable | :47:50. | :47:53. | |
that we have got to take these tough decisions. The reality is we | :47:53. | :47:58. | |
did inherit a massive amount of debt. You can't pay off debt | :47:58. | :48:02. | |
quickly when you are income isn't rising. Should single parents take | :48:02. | :48:08. | |
on that burden. There is a lot of discretion of how - all taxes are | :48:08. | :48:13. | |
levied and all savings are saved and the reality is that local | :48:13. | :48:16. | |
councils will make some of these decisions and there is a fund | :48:16. | :48:24. | |
available to help those that are most vulnerable. Let's move on. | :48:24. | :48:27. | |
Now yesterday the Justice Secretary, Chris Grayling, raised the prospect | :48:27. | :48:30. | |
of a British exit from the European Convention on Human Rights. He | :48:30. | :48:33. | |
stressed that change had to happen but when asked by the BBC's John | :48:33. | :48:35. | |
Pienaar whether the Tories might pull out of the Convention | :48:35. | :48:39. | |
altogether, Mr Grayling said that he had not ruled anything in or out. | :48:39. | :48:41. | |
Here's a flavour of what he had to say. | :48:41. | :48:43. | |
Well, I'm absolutely certain we will go into the next election with | :48:43. | :48:46. | |
a plan for change. I think all of us agree that the current framework | :48:46. | :48:49. | |
for human rights law in the UK is not what we would want it to be. | :48:49. | :48:54. | |
Ironically f you look at the original convention in the 1940s | :48:54. | :49:01. | |
and 50s, when Stalin was in power and people were sent to gulags | :49:01. | :49:07. | |
without trial. Over 50 years, it's moved away from that. That was | :49:07. | :49:12. | |
Chris Grayling. Should Britain pull out of the ECHR? Absolutely, I | :49:12. | :49:15. | |
think many people across the country are fed up with the | :49:15. | :49:18. | |
perverse decisions that come as a consequence of that. I have never | :49:18. | :49:21. | |
understood why this is sometimes portrayed as a lurch to the right. | :49:21. | :49:25. | |
I don't see why it's beyond British parliament to make decisions about | :49:25. | :49:29. | |
human rights and how things work in our country. It seems that we are | :49:29. | :49:33. | |
capable as a parliament of doing that. I think that what Chris is | :49:33. | :49:38. | |
pursuing is a sensible way forward. What do you think? I don't agree | :49:38. | :49:42. | |
with him nor I am sure does Kenneth Clarke. The convention has brought | :49:42. | :49:48. | |
lots of benefits to the UK in terms of protecting press freedoms, | :49:48. | :49:52. | |
providing access to pensions for widows and widowers. Actually it | :49:52. | :49:55. | |
has made a positive contribution. Now I am not say thrg's no scope | :49:55. | :50:01. | |
for -- there's no scope for reform. There are a lot of cases held in a | :50:01. | :50:04. | |
backlog that we could process more quickly. The act and the convention | :50:04. | :50:14. | |
:50:14. | :50:15. | ||
has been of benefit to the UK. For to us come out of it and join only | :50:15. | :50:19. | |
bell only - would be a mistake. What the Tories aren't doing us is | :50:19. | :50:24. | |
telling us what they would replace it with. What do they want to lose? | :50:24. | :50:34. | |
:50:34. | :50:34. | ||
The convention prevents the Government ears dropping on | :50:34. | :50:38. | |
citizens -- Eavesdropping on citizens. No way different | :50:38. | :50:41. | |
hierarchy of things can be resolved. We need to have more control at | :50:41. | :50:44. | |
domestic level. It's all very well saying these things can be reformed. | :50:44. | :50:47. | |
They haven't been reformed and time and time again people in this | :50:47. | :50:51. | |
country are frustrated that laws they hope are actually made in | :50:52. | :50:55. | |
Westminster by their elected representatives, we have little | :50:55. | :50:57. | |
authority over. What do you say about those frustrations people | :50:57. | :51:01. | |
feel? They're not telling us. They're not telling us... What | :51:01. | :51:07. | |
about frustrations? One of the benefits of the HRA decisions, | :51:07. | :51:11. | |
instead of being taken by British judges in British courts, will be | :51:11. | :51:14. | |
taken by European judges in Strasbourg. Is that what the Tories | :51:14. | :51:20. | |
want to do, hand more power to kwrorp. -- to Europe? We need to | :51:20. | :51:24. | |
have control in Westminster. We need to have British politicians | :51:24. | :51:28. | |
making rules about what we see as important in terms of human rights, | :51:28. | :51:33. | |
what hierarchy they actually take... The convention was the product of | :51:33. | :51:39. | |
British diplomacy. Time has moved on, rather a lot since then. We | :51:39. | :51:44. | |
need reform urgently. convention has really to show that | :51:44. | :51:48. | |
- that the British don't always take the right decisions. Access to | :51:48. | :51:51. | |
pensions for widows and widowers that's come as a result of the | :51:52. | :51:54. | |
European convention has been of great benefit to British citizens. | :51:54. | :51:58. | |
We need to take that into account. Nothing would prevent us from doing | :51:58. | :52:08. | |
that ourselves either. Right. So amongst the advice, analysis, and | :52:08. | :52:10. | |
criticisms for the political parties post-Eastleigh one thing | :52:10. | :52:12. | |
seems to affect them all. The seemingly all pervasive view that | :52:12. | :52:16. | |
they are indeed all the same. It's not a new thought, and perhaps | :52:16. | :52:18. | |
explains why political rebels have always attracted attention. One | :52:18. | :52:21. | |
Westminster website has drawn up a list of this parliaments rebels but | :52:21. | :52:24. | |
as in-house bad boy Giles Dilnot has been discovering the new rebels | :52:24. | :52:34. | |
:52:34. | :52:40. | ||
actually play within the rules. From long before the invention of | :52:40. | :52:50. | |
:52:50. | :53:03. | ||
the internal come the -- combustion engine Politics has had rebels. | :53:03. | :53:06. | |
People who like to drive straight through convention and leave tyre | :53:06. | :53:09. | |
marks on the best laid plans of Government, so Politics.co.uk | :53:09. | :53:11. | |
compiling a list celebrating a current crop of feisty folk might | :53:11. | :53:21. | |
not rev your motor but there IS a difference $:/ENDFEED.. | :53:21. | :53:30. | |
One thing I quite strongly recept is being skaoeub -- resent is being | :53:30. | :53:34. | |
described as a rebel. I am elected by the good people to be a member | :53:34. | :53:38. | |
of parliament, not a member of the Government. And certainly not | :53:38. | :53:42. | |
elected to be a Patsy for the whips office for front bench. I would | :53:42. | :53:46. | |
call myself an independent-minded loyalist. I am sure it's going to | :53:46. | :53:51. | |
be carved in me somewhere when I die. You have to stand up for | :53:51. | :53:56. | |
things and there's ways of going about it. I have made a nuisance of | :53:56. | :53:59. | |
myself from time to time. But I have tried to do it in a | :53:59. | :54:02. | |
constructive way. Whether it's Carswell gearing up | :54:02. | :54:10. | |
with a number of issues, on fuel and 10p tax, Creasy rolling with | :54:11. | :54:16. | |
payday loans or Field, Goldsmith and Clarke carving their own way | :54:16. | :54:20. | |
through traffic, is it all principle or is that ego to them | :54:20. | :54:24. | |
all? There isn't an ego but I have always been a politician who does | :54:24. | :54:30. | |
say it as it is. It's been my strength. It's also been my | :54:30. | :54:33. | |
weakness because when I was part of the collective Ministerial team | :54:33. | :54:36. | |
there were times when I probably said things I shouldn't have done. | :54:37. | :54:41. | |
But get used to this, because we may see much more of it. | :54:41. | :54:45. | |
Politicians are realising now they look back at the 2010 election | :54:45. | :54:50. | |
where we saw unpredictable results, part of the reason was MPs are | :54:50. | :54:55. | |
becoming better at selling themselves rather than the party. | :54:55. | :54:59. | |
Leather rosettes, biker gang cabinet anyone? Giles enjoyed that | :54:59. | :55:05. | |
too much I think. So, have you ever rebelled? I have only only been | :55:05. | :55:09. | |
there a few weeks! Are you going to be a rebel with a cause? We have to | :55:09. | :55:13. | |
wait and see what issues come up. We have a party system for a reason. | :55:13. | :55:18. | |
People need to know what they're voting for when they put X next to | :55:18. | :55:22. | |
your name. Most don't know who we are individually, they know the | :55:22. | :55:25. | |
party label and know policies they're voting for and that's | :55:25. | :55:30. | |
helpful. Have you rebelled? I can't say I am a known rebel within the | :55:30. | :55:33. | |
Lib Dems, but the advantage of the Liberal Democrats is we are a | :55:33. | :55:36. | |
relatively small part, I suppose, compared to the other two. On the | :55:36. | :55:40. | |
whole, our views coincide so I think naturally we are less | :55:40. | :55:45. | |
rebellious. I suppose we have had to fight on many fronts for many | :55:45. | :55:47. | |
years and that binds us together more effectively perhaps than the | :55:47. | :55:52. | |
other two parties. Lots of rebels and they would argue with a great | :55:52. | :55:56. | |
cause. I think you need to draw a distension between a rebel and | :55:56. | :56:05. | |
being an effective campaigner -- distinction. You have understood | :56:05. | :56:09. | |
the film obviously completely. Well done. Is this the beginning of the | :56:09. | :56:14. | |
end for party politics and discipline that now campaigns are | :56:14. | :56:18. | |
taking on a life of their own and the 2010 intake are proving that? | :56:18. | :56:22. | |
To some degree, it's about emphasis. If you asked Douglas Carswell if he | :56:22. | :56:26. | |
was going to stand at the next election as an independent he would | :56:26. | :56:30. | |
quickly say no. At the end of the day there is lots more in common | :56:30. | :56:35. | |
than not. So, whilst he has very clear views that sometimes are at | :56:35. | :56:38. | |
odds with the Government, he still wants to stand as a Conservative. | :56:38. | :56:43. | |
There is also an issue about safe seats and marginal seats. There are | :56:43. | :56:48. | |
times when those, we will find out closer to the election, are going | :56:48. | :56:52. | |
to tpoeut for that -- fight for that seat and views in that | :56:52. | :56:55. | |
constituency, whether or not it's anything to do with their party | :56:55. | :56:58. | |
line. That's true and issues on which individual members of | :56:58. | :57:01. | |
parliament take a different view. Is that a good thing, will it | :57:01. | :57:08. | |
inspire people to be more independently-minded? We don't want | :57:08. | :57:12. | |
people who are stereo types. The backbench business committee, a new | :57:12. | :57:17. | |
innovation, is something that has enabled Robert Halfon for instance, | :57:17. | :57:21. | |
and others to push heard on an agenda -- hard on an agenda which | :57:21. | :57:25. | |
perhaps past governments wouldn't have allowed time to do. Are you | :57:25. | :57:31. | |
into campaigns as opposed to sticking to the political line. | :57:31. | :57:34. | |
are elected by constituents to represent that constituency and | :57:34. | :57:37. | |
every constituency is different. For instance, Croydon North which I | :57:37. | :57:41. | |
represent, big problem in the riots a year-and-a-half ago. Hundreds of | :57:41. | :57:45. | |
people hadn't had compensation despite being promised it. I have | :57:45. | :57:48. | |
to stand and want to stand full square with those people to fight | :57:48. | :57:52. | |
for their rights. That's a constituency issue. It isn't | :57:52. | :57:55. | |
necessarily against your party, is it? The key thing there is I am | :57:55. | :58:00. | |
fighting for the people that elected me. All right. Rebels, not | :58:00. | :58:04. | |
rebels with or without a cause! Time before we go to find out the | :58:04. | :58:14. | |
:58:14. | :58:15. | ||
answer to our quiz. What other female first can | :58:15. | :58:21. | |
Grantham lay claim to. The first woman to be a firefighter, brain | :58:21. | :58:26. | |
surgeon, astronaut or police officer? Have a go. Police officer. | :58:26. | :58:31. | |
Astronaut. Police officer. You are going too sky high there! You have | :58:31. | :58:35. | |
it right. Congratulations. There are no prizes, I have to tell you. | :58:35. | :58:40. | |
You can come on again! Now that's it for today. Thank you to our | :58:40. | :58:46. |