04/03/2013 Daily Politics


04/03/2013

Jo Coburn with the latest political news, interviews and debate. With guest Jude Kelly, artistic director of the Southbank Centre.


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Good afternoon. Welcome to the Daily Politics. How do you stop a

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sudden influx of immigrants from Bulgaria and Romania? The

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Government sthis it can do it by impose -- thinks it can do it by

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imposing tougher rules on benefits. The catch - British citizens may be

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affected too. Surprise, surprise, Tory right-wingers call on David

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Cameron to cut taxes in the Budget later this month. She's the only

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female Prime Minister Britain has ever had, but should Mrs Thatcher

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get a statue in her home town of Grantham? Labour say yes, the

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Tories say, no. We have found MPs with a cause -

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they get what they want in the end but sometimes through more

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inventive means. All that in the next hour, ve. With us for the

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first half of the programme is Jude Kelly, the artistic director of the

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Southbank Centre in London. She sat on the board of the Cultural

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Olympiad for the Olympic Games. Welcome to the programme. Thank you.

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This week, the Southbank Centre is hosting the Women of the World

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festival, which promises live music, comedy and passionate debate. A big

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title - what is it all about? celebrating what women have

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achieved in this country and across the world. It is posing the

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questions about what is stopping their potential being fully

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realised. So the celebration is the festival side of it. It's all kind

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of women from astronauts, women in the British Army, sports women,

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including Gillingham lady's football team. Do you have a vested

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interest in that? Just to cheer them on. It is to show the range of

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skills, expertise and commitments women are making in civil society

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and domestic questions. What are we doing about girls' education across

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the world? What are we doing about women in public life? There's been

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a report showing that women's progress is not as fast as it

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should be. Why do you think it is not as fast as it should be in the

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UK? There's still a combination of women themselves putting barrier

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into their own progress on the grounds they feel that maybe they

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cannot do it all, maybe not have the work-life balance. Sometimes

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they feel dismayed and pushed back. They don't have the same networking

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systems the men have yet. There are some very obvious attitudes that

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still prevail. You would be surprised, but they do prevail

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about what is suitable for women and what is suitable for men.

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woman, in a position like yours, to you promote women enough in your

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own mind? Do you recruit enough women who are of merit to do the

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job? I do. I know I do. At the Southbank Centre, we're a huge

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emplayer in terms of the arts. We have staggeringly good women and

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good men, I should stress. On merit is correct. I also think that, as a

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woman, I can spot a woman's potential. I can spot when they are

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self-doubting. If you hear a story about yourself often enough that

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women cannot do things, it is easy to internalise that and say, "I can

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do it." I am trying to say "ambition" is not a dirty woman for

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a woman. Are you a feminist as well? It is one of the posed posed

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- can a woman wear high heels? think that a feminist can really do

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anything they want to. I don't think there's a rule book. There is

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not a rule book about what feminists should or shouldn't be

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like or look like. What feminists are, are people who believe in

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equality for women. It is as simple as that. You have to believe that

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women are entitled to an equal share of what is available in the

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world to realise their potential. That is not the same as saying men

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and women are identical in every way. In fact, I was watching the

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other day a wonderful documentary about the West Indian cricket team

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and looking at how they had really set out to demonstrate that the

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notion of racism in sport, ie, who could achieve and who couldn't was

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something that eventually white and black together came around to say,

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this has to change. I am keen that men should support their wives,

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their daughters to have equal opportunities. You have a lot of

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men at this festival too? We have men at this too. Absolutely, yes!

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Grantham was home to Britain's first and only woman Prime Minister,

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Margaret Thatcher. We will have more on her later in the programme.

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What are the female first can be attributed to the town? Was it home

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to the first women to be a firefighter, a brain surgeon, an

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astronaut, or a police officer? An interesting question. We will

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give you the correct answer at the end of the show. What price

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culture? The Arts Council distributed �310 million of

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taxpayers' money in 2012 and 2013, slashed by �40 million on the

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previous financial year. Should arts be subsidised at all? This is

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at a time public services are being cut? Our guest of the day thinks so.

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But Philip Booth from the institute of artistic affairs begs to differ.

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London's South Bank - vibrant art to satisfy our cultural yearnings.

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It comes at a price. Whether we like it or not.

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Those who wish to cut Government funding of the arts are branded

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fill stiens or ignorant. Culture is supposed to broaden the mind, yet

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it appears some people are incapable of holding a rational

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argument. Before 1946 the Government's funding of the arts

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took off. England's rich tradition developed funding. Art had to

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appeal to the people rather than to the Government or bureaucrats N the

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16th century, British theatre developed a public acclaim,

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precisely because it had to appeal to the public.

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In his day Shakes-Drayton was commercially successful and pop --

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Shakespeare was commercially success and popular.

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Is state-funding the only option now? The Globe does not receive

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state funding and its ticket prices are no higher than those of the

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Royal Shake peers Company. The Gilbert hall, the Fitwilliam - the

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list of cultural institutions which to which this age gave rise without

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Government support is endless. In contrast, what does the Arts

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Council do for us? It centralises state funding. 50% of its money is

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spent in London. 3% in the eastern region of England. 3% in the East

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Midlands and 5% in the North-East. It spends about as much on

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administration as it does on these three regions of England put

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together. After much-resisted cuts, the Arts Council will have nearly

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one employee for every �1 million given out in tpwrapbtds. In 2008,

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the Arts Council had 50 communication officers, no wonder

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it is such a good advocate. The state cries out for private funding

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and raises costs. Would it not be a sign of a less fill stien nation if

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those who consumed the arts had a more active interest in their

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support? Can the arts survive without state funding? Not if it

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wants to reach as many people as possible with the rich programme

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which has made Britain famous. I do agree with the last point, that

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those who consume the arts, some of them, if they have the ability,

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could be greater in terms of their fill lan introduce pi. We have at

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the end of our society some very rich people, for whom the patronage

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of the arts is not a normal activity like in the States. I

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would not recommend what they do in the States, which is basically...

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The theatres, certainly in London seem to be packed most nights.

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There are a lot of people willing to pay. Why don't people at the

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better end off end of the scale give more of their income to the

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arts? I think the habit, which did support a lot of the 17th, 18th and

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19th century work, the habit has not been - it has not got into the

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blood stream in the British culture, in the way it does in America. The

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downside of America is if their national endowment scheme starts to

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fall, as it has by billions, or if people are short of cash, which

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they are, actually it fractures and collapses. The American mod sl a

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very poor one to use -- model is a very poor one to use. The UK has

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:10:29.:10:29.

one of the most sophisticated and arts structures in the world. The

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amount of cash generates is enormous. Can taxpayers afford it?

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I think they can. 25p a week from each taxpayer goes on the arts.

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There are free museums, free galleries. Had he filmed yesterday,

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thousands of people were coming for the Restless Noise Festival, which

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for �25 for a weekend gives them classes, workshops, debates,

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concerts, films, et cetera. A lot of those people could never afford

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premium price tickets or tickets at any price. This is about extending

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the value of the arts for the many, not the few. We don't want

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education for the few, we don't want arts for the few. Jude Kelly

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says taxpayers can afford to subsidise the arts and should

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continue to do so because of the money that is generated as a result.

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Well, this is not a matter of affordability. It is a matter of

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what is the best way to finance the arts, whether they should be

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financed through taxation and through, if you like, bureaucratic

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control of the arts industry, or whether they should be financed by

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those who consume the arts, those who wish to contribute to the arts.

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There is evidence which suggests when you get taxpayer financing of

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the arts it raises the cost-base. It does not raise opportunities for

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people to attend the arts at all. It crowds out private funding,

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which is low in this country. Without state funding, it would

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collapse. We would not have the range of arts we have. For example,

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we might go back to the environment which existed in the UK before the

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Arts Council started to hugely increase Government funding on the

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arts, in 1946. I don't see that as a cultural desert at all. You would

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end up without all the theatres, all the ballet companies. You would

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not have any of the art output, which is so produce livic around

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the country. These companies are doing work

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which could not be paid for by those giving money. Those who love

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the arts, let's take Wagner. People will go and pay a fortune for it,

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because that is what they do with their money. You want to say that

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opera is as form, as in Italy when it started, should be there for

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everyone. I don't think the only way subsidy should be there for the

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arts - I think the arts looks at what we believe civil society

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should be about, that is not just a trickle down from above. Civil

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society should not be captured by the state. Arts and culture should

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be embedded within civil society, rather than provided to civil

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society by the state. In Italy, you talk about state funding and opera

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available to everybody. If you look at those institutions which are

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most heavily reliant on state funding, they are no more

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accessible to the ordinary individual on average earnings to

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those individuals. At the Southbank Centre we reach millions of people.

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Millions of whom are on low incomes. They could not afford it and they

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would not be able to be included as well. If you said, unless you are

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interested you could not do that. As in Shakespeare's day.

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That's not true T monarchy was the state at the time. It is not true.

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You two, I know, could talk about this for hours. Thank you for doing

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the film. Tens of thousands of police officers voted for the right

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to take industrial action. 45,000 of the Police Federation members

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voted yes. 10,000 voted no. The measure was defeated as the

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federation needs a majority of members to vote in favour for a

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change of the law. More than half didn't take part in the vote. As

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servants of the Crown, policemen don't have the right to strike. In

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a moment, we will be joined by Damian Green. First let's speak to

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the chair of the Police Federation. There just wasn't enough support

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:15:01.:15:06.

amongst your members. Not enough It sends a clear message to

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Government that 81% of the people who voted, over a third of police

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officers in England and Wales, wish to seek the right for industrial

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action. Now they're concerned, they're very angry and disappointed

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at what this Government is doing to the Police Service. What about all

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the people who didn't come and vote? They obviously disagree.

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that's not necessarily the case. I didn't wish to comment on why

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people haven't voted but the significant number - if you compare

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that to the relation of Police and Crime Commissioners election, 34%

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of police officers are extremely annoyed about what the Government

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are doing and we need to engage and I think the Government needs to

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take a clear message of what this actually means. We will ask, we are

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going to ask the Government in a moment. I come back to the numbers

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that didn't vote. Why do you think they didn't? Well, it was my job to

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make sure that officers up and down the country in the months that led

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up to the ballot taking place were provided with sufficient detail and

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that took all different formats, from video recordings, to messages,

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to e-mails, to literature, so that when they cast their vote they did

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so from an informed position. That was very, very important because it

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is of such significant importance. Right. I come back to this point

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again. They felt they - they didn't feel strongly enough that they do

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want the right to strike or don't feel strongly enough about the

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Government's reforms, unlike the rest of the members who did which

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means off divided federation or members of the federation. Well, we

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have an awful lot of officers who feel very strongly about what's

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happening to the Police Service. I do think the Government need to

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take heed of that message. Thank you.

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Damian Green is here now. Not enough people came out to vote in

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this particular ballot. But the strength of feeling as Steve

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Williams described must be worrying for the Government, particularly

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for a Tory-led Government? I am conscious of the strength of

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feeling which is what you would expect at a time where we have had

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to keep pay down, we have had to reform pensions and so on. But it's

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hugely encouraging that two thirds of police officers don't even want

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to contemplate the right to strike. That's very sensible, they do an

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important job. They're doing it successfully, crime is down 10% in

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the first two years of this Government. We can take this as a

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step to move forward with the sensible talks we have to have.

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That doesn't mean those people who decided not to vote doesn't mean

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they're supporting your reforms if the Police Federation is right. You

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have got a significant number of police officers, 45,000 who wanted

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to seek the trite strike. That's -- the right to strike. That's a

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dramatic move by those police officers for the first time in this

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country, even if the others stayed at home and are unhappy still about

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what you are doing. Some of the others actively voted against. I

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think the issue of the right to strike has been put to bed. The

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police... Is that it now? It seems to be so. They've had this ballot

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and the Police Federation sensibly set a 50% hurdle that they needed

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half the membership to vote yes to proceed with negotiations. I I

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think that's sensible. Trade unions should perhaps take some lessons

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from that. How would you characterise relationships between

:18:17.:18:22.

the government and police? They're fragile because of all the

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necessary measures swre had to take. The police budget is �14 billion a

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year. A time where we have to be tough on the public finances, the

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police have had to take their share. You still see them as the last

:18:38.:18:40.

unreformed public service as someone said about the police?

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someone, but not me said that. don't believe that? Precisely

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because we have been embarking on huge reforms. Not just to pay and

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pensions, which is what obviously the officers themselves are

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concerned on, but introduced the College of Policing, Police and

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Crime Commissioners, we are introducing the National Crime

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Agency, so big reforms that allow the police to get better at their

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very vital job. As I say, they are doing it well at the moment. The

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figures show that crime is coming down. You have said relations are

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fragile. What are you doing to improve those relations? Talking in

:19:13.:19:17.

practical terms on a regular basis to the Police Federation and to

:19:17.:19:21.

other ranks, but also making it easier for the police to do the job

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they all join up to do, stripping away the bureaucracy, stopping some

:19:25.:19:28.

of the unnecessary form-filling. Thousands of them don't understand

:19:28.:19:32.

it, clearly, otherwise they wouldn't have voted in this

:19:32.:19:36.

election. It's not so much they don't understand, they understand

:19:36.:19:39.

perfectly what's going on. They don't like it. Nobody is happy...

:19:39.:19:43.

You haven't brought them on board is what I am saying. Nobody is

:19:43.:19:47.

unhappy when they have a two-year pay freeze or pensions have to be

:19:47.:19:50.

reformed. That's not surprising. What's significant about the result

:19:50.:19:55.

is that even with all of those necessary pressures, two thirds of

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the Police Federation members decided they didn't even want to

:19:58.:20:02.

negotiate about the right to strike. I think we can draw a line here and

:20:02.:20:06.

say let's go forward. The reforms are making police better in this

:20:06.:20:09.

country. We can have sensible talks with the Police Federation. Do you

:20:10.:20:13.

think the reforms are the right way to go in terms of the police?

:20:13.:20:18.

just thinking that the critical thing for a lay person like myself

:20:18.:20:23.

and the public is that you arrive at a police force who are motivated,

:20:23.:20:31.

vocational, committed, and progressive. The last thing you

:20:31.:20:35.

want is a hard done by feeling amongst police who, whether they

:20:35.:20:39.

strike or not, might feel that they're undervalued by us and we

:20:39.:20:42.

only have the Government to value them. We can't personally value

:20:42.:20:46.

them. I think the thing I most feel about this is that it's not a

:20:47.:20:51.

debate that's included, even though the voting for police Commissioners

:20:51.:20:53.

was something that came into being, I don't think that the public,

:20:53.:20:57.

generally, feel they're involved in this debate in a way they

:20:57.:21:00.

understand clearly enough. That would worry me. They are our police

:21:00.:21:09.

force. What do you say to that? What's important is everyone

:21:09.:21:12.

recognises the police themselves and the public and that we are

:21:12.:21:14.

trying to increase the professionalism of the police,

:21:14.:21:20.

that's why we have the College of Policing and also introducing much

:21:20.:21:23.

more transparency so things that really worry the public,

:21:23.:21:27.

Hillsborough, some of the scandals like that, are seen clearly to be

:21:27.:21:30.

things in the past that couldn't happen now and won't happen in the

:21:30.:21:36.

future. That's the aim. You were a former immigration Minister, we are

:21:36.:21:46.
:21:46.:21:47.

going to talk about immigration in the next thing, can I ask you what

:21:47.:21:50.

would you like to see, new measures brought in to try and curb the

:21:50.:21:53.

rights of Bulgarians and Romanians who will come later this year?

:21:53.:21:56.

other Ministers are doing is making very sure that people can't come to

:21:56.:22:00.

this country, whether they come from the EU or elsewhere, to

:22:00.:22:05.

exploit either the benefits system or our free at the point of use

:22:05.:22:08.

National Health Service, that's what really annoys people. Will

:22:08.:22:11.

British citizens be affected? the work's being done. I am not

:22:11.:22:15.

involved with the detailed work. Are you worried about that? That is

:22:15.:22:19.

the quid pro quo, is British citizens may be affected, too.

:22:19.:22:22.

People want to see a National Health Service that is not an

:22:23.:22:26.

international health service. They want to see a benefits system that

:22:26.:22:29.

pays benefits to disadvantaged people or elderly people who

:22:29.:22:34.

deserve them in this country. But which can't be exploited by people

:22:34.:22:37.

coming here for that very purpose and that I know is the thrust of

:22:37.:22:40.

the work going on in Government now. Don't forget, overall immigration

:22:40.:22:45.

numbers are coming down. The pledge we made at the election was to

:22:45.:22:48.

bring it down to tens of thousands. It's down by more than a quarter.

:22:48.:22:56.

Thank you very much. There have been rumours for weeks

:22:56.:23:01.

but it seems the Government have finally decided to introduce curbs

:23:01.:23:04.

on benefits for migrants. It's thought any changes will need to

:23:04.:23:07.

apply to Brits, as well. What are they suggesting?

:23:07.:23:10.

Government sources have confirmed that Ministers are examining

:23:10.:23:12.

options to restrict the amount of free healthcare the NHS provides

:23:12.:23:16.

for immigrants. This could include a crackdown on

:23:16.:23:20.

charging to ensure non-resident citizens pay for their NHS

:23:20.:23:24.

treatment. Ministers are also considering

:23:24.:23:29.

extending the what bitual residency test so migrants might have to wait

:23:29.:23:33.

six months or a year before being granted residency and therefore

:23:33.:23:36.

hospital care or other benefits. Cabinet sources have also confirmed

:23:36.:23:40.

that the Government is looking at encouraging local councils to give

:23:40.:23:44.

priority on housing waiting lists to local families ahead of any

:23:44.:23:47.

outsiders. Government sources have said Ministers are prepared to

:23:47.:23:51.

introduce across the board curbs on benefits for migrants in the near

:23:51.:23:55.

future, which is expected to be before the Queen's Speech in May.

:23:55.:23:58.

All these measures will, the Government hopes, bring the UK in

:23:59.:24:02.

line with policies in other European member states, already

:24:02.:24:08.

deemed legal by the European Court of Justice. I am joined by the

:24:08.:24:12.

Labour MP Frank Field who co-chairs a cross-party parliamentary group

:24:12.:24:15.

on balanced migration and by the Conservative MP Stewart Jackson. Is

:24:15.:24:18.

Britain a soft touch for immigrants? Well, potentially yes,

:24:18.:24:22.

it is. Actually, the disappointing thing is that the Government had

:24:22.:24:26.

the opportunity many months ago to look at these issues and also to

:24:26.:24:31.

look at the issues that arose from my ten-minute rule Bill in October

:24:31.:24:34.

which was about the disapplication of the free movement directive

:24:34.:24:39.

which would have copied some of of the things happening in Spain, and

:24:39.:24:41.

it is important also to recognise that the free movement directive is

:24:41.:24:45.

not a tablet of stone, it's a flexible legal document and

:24:45.:24:48.

ministers should have been working on this months, if not years ago.

:24:48.:24:58.
:24:58.:24:59.

Isn't the truth that they have been working on this? This hasn't come

:24:59.:25:01.

about just as a result of the Eastleigh by-election. That may

:25:01.:25:04.

have given the issue some oxygen, but Ministers have been looking at

:25:04.:25:06.

what rights immigrants will have later this year in terms of access

:25:06.:25:09.

to benefits? Could have followed me - we have been pressing the

:25:09.:25:12.

government over the last two years on a number of fronts. First of all,

:25:12.:25:16.

on health. In July last year, the Secretary of State, Jeremy Hunt,

:25:16.:25:20.

agreed that our health service should should kraez to be a

:25:20.:25:24.

national one and be an international one -- cease. He said

:25:24.:25:29.

nothing to do with me, governor, we have a group, they've made this now

:25:29.:25:32.

legal. I thought a Secretary of State's job was to stop those sorts

:25:32.:25:36.

of things happening. Also over the last two years, we have been

:25:36.:25:39.

lobbying the Government about access to social, what many people

:25:39.:25:45.

call council housing. Again, saying you don't - local authorities don't

:25:45.:25:49.

tell you to whom they're giving housing to. We are suggesting it

:25:49.:25:52.

should be to British citizens. If you haven't actually registered as

:25:52.:25:58.

a British citizen, should you be getting council council... Don't

:25:58.:26:02.

local authorities already have some of those powers that you can favour

:26:02.:26:06.

residents or locals over others? They can do but Government refuses

:26:06.:26:10.

to actually make it mandatory and refuses to collect accurate data on

:26:11.:26:15.

both those fronts. Both on health, and on housing. Of course, there is

:26:15.:26:19.

a much bigger issue, and our welfare and health services are

:26:19.:26:23.

similar to Britain in 1940. We have no defences. If you look, for

:26:24.:26:28.

example, we changed our welfare state from one which started out

:26:28.:26:33.

you had to contribute to one, if you prove low income you have it

:26:33.:26:37.

and that's the problem of us defending welfare against movement

:26:38.:26:41.

of Labour in Europe. Why has the Government been reluctant to tackle

:26:41.:26:44.

this, bearing in mind they've had this target which they're getting

:26:44.:26:49.

closer to of reducing immigration to tens of thousands, wouldn't this

:26:49.:26:52.

have fitted, even though it is obviously within the EU and they

:26:52.:26:55.

can't stop the movement of people, even if they wanted to, why hasn't

:26:55.:27:00.

the Government grasped this issue? There's been a lack of political

:27:01.:27:05.

will, frankly. They are beholden to lawyers who say you can't do it

:27:05.:27:12.

because it will fall foul. Does it fall foul? I understood there were

:27:12.:27:15.

powers for the National Health Service, obviously not on accident

:27:15.:27:18.

and emergency grounds but on general grounds they don't have to

:27:18.:27:22.

do this without some sort of pay up front and the same with local

:27:22.:27:26.

councils. The thing is let's take a chance on it, because if we

:27:26.:27:29.

actually invoke the caveat in the free movement directive on public

:27:29.:27:35.

good, public security, public health, it will take 18 months to

:27:35.:27:38.

get to the European Court of justice to be tested. Is this being

:27:38.:27:44.

blown out of proportion? We don't have figures for the numbers of

:27:44.:27:49.

Bulgarians and Romanians... We do. We don't know exactly. Swre had

:27:49.:27:52.

Government -- we have had Government Ministers saying it's

:27:52.:27:57.

impossible to collect data and why scaremonger. The Government's own

:27:57.:28:00.

data shows there is 150,000 Romanians and Bulgarians here

:28:00.:28:03.

already claiming to be self- employed. The Government doesn't

:28:03.:28:06.

know where they are. Doesn't know whether they are self-employed,

:28:07.:28:10.

doesn't know whether they're claiming benefits. This is what I

:28:10.:28:14.

mean when I said earlier there are no defences. What we have seen in

:28:14.:28:18.

our welfare state is moved from one where you had to prove contribution,

:28:19.:28:24.

to one where you get it if you can prove need. There is no defence in

:28:24.:28:29.

European law against that, because as anybody - any Brit can turn up

:28:29.:28:33.

in those circumstances, we have to offer the same services to people

:28:33.:28:37.

who actually come to this country. We have to be robust as they are in

:28:37.:28:41.

Spain where they have a registration scheme. They're using

:28:41.:28:46.

the free movement directive to the enth degree and we have to do that

:28:46.:28:50.

to protect public services and our employment market. What about

:28:50.:28:53.

changes that will affect British citizens and their rights to claim?

:28:53.:28:57.

Are you not worried about that? don't think they have quite the

:28:57.:29:02.

same impab on the jobs -- impact on the jobs market. The fact that we

:29:02.:29:07.

had unplanned an unrestriked EU my -- unrestricted EU migration has

:29:07.:29:17.
:29:17.:29:19.

contributed to the embedding of welfare dependency and unskilled

:29:19.:29:22.

people being on benefits, rather than in work. I think that needs to

:29:22.:29:24.

be looked at holistically as inissue that we are going to have

:29:24.:29:27.

again with Romanians and Bulgarians if we are not careful. Is this

:29:27.:29:29.

something you are worried about? Yes, I hope we don't get to the

:29:29.:29:31.

stage where Romanians and Bulgarians stand in for a sort of

:29:31.:29:35.

catch-all phrase that means they're bad, because that quickly becomes

:29:35.:29:39.

racism. You are talking about specific policies that suggest

:29:39.:29:45.

people can actually - can come here and claim benefits. Broadly

:29:45.:29:48.

speaking, I think that I am completely with you on the fact

:29:48.:29:53.

that - I remember with Barking, how much we suddenly realised there was

:29:53.:29:57.

a wake-up call where you thought that if people in Barking cannot

:29:57.:30:00.

plan for their family's future and don't know what economic

:30:00.:30:03.

possibilities their children can have, this is going to produce

:30:03.:30:13.
:30:13.:30:14.

massive chaos in terms of social integration. Labour didn't deal

:30:14.:30:17.

with it at the time. I hope we will make a clear statement that we want

:30:17.:30:22.

to move welfare from one where you prove need to one where you have to

:30:22.:30:25.

prove contribution. That's what we actually set out to have and

:30:25.:30:29.

without any approval of the electorate at all, we have changed

:30:29.:30:32.

welfare from the contributory basis, to if you can prove need, you get

:30:32.:30:42.
:30:42.:30:48.

There's no evidence that the leadership of the Labour Party -

:30:48.:30:52.

that the Leader of the Labour Party is at all committed, authentically

:30:52.:30:57.

to these issues. Frank has taken the right attitude and given the

:30:57.:31:06.

right cause. I don't trust Labour on migration. Are you confident?

:31:06.:31:12.

am saying what my position over the decades has been on this.

:31:12.:31:18.

Labour leadership? First of all, the threat now of a mass migration

:31:18.:31:22.

from Bulgaria and Romania gives the Government the opportunity to

:31:22.:31:25.

change the nature of our welfare state. Similarly, it is a challenge

:31:25.:31:31.

to the Labour side about whether in fact they want to see a welfare

:31:31.:31:36.

state based on contributions that people build it up by their own

:31:36.:31:42.

residency or whether we continue as we have since 1979 of giving out

:31:42.:31:49.

welfare if you can prove need. not holding my breath. You have

:31:49.:31:53.

been consistently on line, but I think you are right - welfare is an

:31:53.:31:57.

issue we need to look at. I have to say the Prime Minister down needs

:31:57.:32:00.

to look at this because it is a political imperative for my party

:32:00.:32:06.

too. Thank you both very much. There's a bitter row brewing in

:32:06.:32:11.

Grantham about plans for a statue of the town's most famous daughter

:32:11.:32:14.

- Baroness Thatcher. Visit today and you will see little sign of the

:32:14.:32:18.

former Prime Minister, just a small plaque on her father's grocer's

:32:18.:32:25.

shop and a display in the local museum. The council voted for plans

:32:25.:32:31.

for a new statue on Friday. Labour voted for it and the Tory majority

:32:31.:32:41.
:32:41.:32:46.

against. Confused? We are. We asked for an interview. We are joined by

:32:46.:32:51.

Ray Wootten. We have planned in place, but with Baroness Thatcher

:32:51.:32:56.

being 87, we hope she lives a much longer time. Do you think it is

:32:56.:32:59.

unseemingly to be discussing these kind of things while she is still

:32:59.:33:07.

alive? We do. We have plans in place, but they are confidential at

:33:07.:33:12.

the moment. You cannot give us guidance about what you are

:33:12.:33:19.

considering? As much as I want to, I can't. Why do you think the issue

:33:19.:33:21.

of Margaret Thatcher is controversial for you? What I was

:33:22.:33:26.

pleased about was to hear that Labour did actually admire Margaret

:33:26.:33:33.

Thatcher. They did support all her views and, clearly, she actually

:33:33.:33:36.

put the great back into Great Britain. Are you sure Labour

:33:37.:33:45.

supported all her views? I am sure they don't all of them. Some of the

:33:45.:33:48.

Labour councillors said should a statue come to Grantham the best

:33:48.:33:53.

thing for that statue would be to crush it up and fill the potholes

:33:53.:33:59.

in, which I think is quite disgraceful. We will ask Labour to

:33:59.:34:04.

give us their views about Margaret Thatcher on another occasion. It

:34:04.:34:08.

will seem strange that Labour are promoting this idea. They think it

:34:08.:34:12.

will be good for tourism? With the county council elections coming up,

:34:12.:34:17.

this is a move by the local Labour leader to gain publicity for

:34:17.:34:22.

herself. You think it is playing politics then? I do. We had the

:34:22.:34:26.

budget meeting on Friday. They made an amendment, knowing we would have

:34:26.:34:31.

to oppose it and we are putting our own amendment before that to carry

:34:31.:34:36.

on doing the research to see what we could do in the event that day

:34:36.:34:40.

does come. We all hope that Baroness Thatcher lives a long,

:34:40.:34:46.

long life. Thank you. Jude Kelly - a statue in her home town? I am all

:34:46.:34:50.

for women in public life being recognised N terms of who has

:34:50.:34:53.

written history and who is known to have existed, I think Margaret

:34:53.:34:59.

Thatcher has earned her place. I am not very keen on public statues

:34:59.:35:03.

because pigeons land on them. My thought is, I wonder what artist

:35:03.:35:10.

would get to do this statue. I thought Tracey Emem because she is

:35:10.:35:14.

a Conservative supporter. I think wasing of the angel of the north

:35:14.:35:19.

and can you have a Margaret Thatcher of Grantham of that scale?

:35:19.:35:25.

What scale would it need to be to be a tourist interest. What would

:35:25.:35:31.

be a fitting tribute to Margaret Thatcher? I don't know, I was going

:35:31.:35:37.

to say a digital game. A digital game. I would be intrigued to know

:35:37.:35:42.

your ideas for that one! I don't know. I know that public statues

:35:42.:35:47.

have a short life. Eric Morecambe, there he is in Morecambe bay, and

:35:48.:35:53.

God bless him, I don't think it attracts the tourists, it is for

:35:53.:36:03.
:36:03.:36:08.

them to sit and eat their sandwiches under and go, Who is

:36:08.:36:14.

this again? I just want to think that actually women in public life

:36:14.:36:19.

need to be spoken of. Whatever we thought of their views, I think she

:36:19.:36:23.

was a very, very dominant figure, not just in this country but across

:36:23.:36:27.

the world. We will be left with the thought of Margaret Thatcher and a

:36:27.:36:32.

digital game then. I will try and invent it for the creative

:36:32.:36:36.

industries. Last week, politics was dominated by the Eastleigh by-

:36:36.:36:39.

election. Let's look at the Westminster in-tray for the week

:36:40.:36:43.

ahead. Later today the Justice and Security Bill, including bills for

:36:43.:36:48.

secret courts will be debated. Also today Liam Byrne launch's Labour's

:36:48.:36:51.

campaign against the so-called bedroom tax at a press conference

:36:52.:36:54.

in Hull. On Tuesday, the Health Select Committee hears evidence

:36:54.:36:59.

from David Nicholson on the Mid Staffordshire NHS Foundation Trust

:36:59.:37:03.

public inquiry. Several MPs have signed a motion calling for Mr

:37:03.:37:09.

Nicholson to resign from his post, giving his previous role as chief

:37:09.:37:12.

executive of West Midlands strategic health authority. On

:37:12.:37:15.

Wednesday Ed Miliband will attempt to address voter concerns on

:37:15.:37:19.

immigration ahead of a speech by the Shadow Home Secretary, Yvette

:37:19.:37:24.

Cooper, on Thursday. Also on Thursday, the Bank of England's

:37:24.:37:28.

monetary committee gives the latest decision on UK interest rates. It

:37:28.:37:34.

is the fourth anniversary of rates reaching the low of 0.5%. On Friday,

:37:34.:37:40.

the Lib Dem's spring conference begins, with a rally of the party

:37:40.:37:44.

favourite. Joining me is George Parker and the Independent's Oliver

:37:44.:37:50.

Wright. Welcome to you both. Oliver Wright, do you think these measures

:37:50.:37:53.

being discussed by the Government to curb immigration from Bulgaria

:37:53.:37:57.

and Romania will work? I think there's some significant problems

:37:57.:38:00.

that the Government have got. If you look at the stories around

:38:00.:38:04.

yesterday about how they were going to curb the use of the NHS, it

:38:04.:38:08.

leads to the question of how on earth will you do that? Will you

:38:08.:38:11.

turn doctors into policemen? Questioning the entitlement of

:38:11.:38:16.

these people as they come in with a broken leg or whatever it might be?

:38:16.:38:19.

I suspect medical leaders would not be entirely happy with that.

:38:19.:38:24.

Clearly the symbolism is important. I think the practical nature of how

:38:24.:38:29.

you actually either curtail benefits or curtail intitlement

:38:29.:38:33.

will be tricky for the Government. What is interesting is some of the

:38:33.:38:38.

things being talked about have been given oxygen since the Eastleigh

:38:38.:38:41.

by-election, because immigration was deemed a big issue. Are many of

:38:41.:38:45.

these measures in place and not used by local councils and the NHS?

:38:45.:38:50.

There's an element of. That it was interesting to see David Cameron

:38:50.:38:55.

saying the party would not lure too much the right and then we've had

:38:55.:38:58.

stories about Britain tightening up the rules on benefit claimants. Yes,

:38:58.:39:03.

it is true. A lot of the things they are talking about in this

:39:03.:39:07.

Cabinet sub committee about restricting the pull factors are

:39:07.:39:12.

things that councils, EU rules allow for, which have not been

:39:12.:39:15.

implemented. The danger for the Government is introducing a raft of

:39:16.:39:20.

new regulations which make it harder for British people to claim

:39:20.:39:26.

benefits and taxes for the benefit of stopping a few Romanians and

:39:26.:39:30.

Bulgarians. Like ID cards all over again. We know how that ended.

:39:30.:39:35.

that issue then, how much do you think Brits may be affected by

:39:35.:39:41.

attempted changes, if they are legally allowed? If you take the

:39:41.:39:43.

NHS issue, the department this morning is very much playing down

:39:43.:39:50.

the idea of ID cards. That was around for a while. Most people who

:39:50.:39:56.

went down that particular line have been urging caution. A, it would

:39:56.:40:00.

cost a huge amount of money. One thing they don't have is money. It

:40:00.:40:06.

would reach the same kind of opposition. If people say we have

:40:06.:40:11.

an entitlement card for the NHS does that lead on to an ID card?

:40:11.:40:16.

All these rules don't just apply to Bulgarian and Romanian, they would

:40:16.:40:22.

have to apply to French, German, Spanish. A lot of people on the

:40:22.:40:25.

Costa Del Sol have free access to the Spanish health service. The

:40:25.:40:29.

European Court of Justice will uphold the rules on the movement of

:40:29.:40:32.

people across the European Union. They have to be careful about how

:40:32.:40:38.

they approach this. What about the bedroom tax? Is it a tax? It's not

:40:38.:40:43.

a tax. It is more withdraw the benefits. Labour will make a

:40:43.:40:45.

campaign about this with some justification. They will point out

:40:45.:40:50.

that people who will lose their benefits if they have a spare room

:40:50.:40:54.

are meant to be encouraged to be moing into a smaller place and end

:40:54.:40:58.

the problem of underoccupancy. There are not the available smaller

:40:58.:41:01.

homes for them to move into, which one of the reasons the Government

:41:01.:41:05.

has put �500 million worth of savings. You can see why Labour are

:41:05.:41:09.

making a campaign about this. Ultimately the Conservative Party,

:41:09.:41:12.

under the coalition party, will say if you don't get the money for this,

:41:12.:41:17.

where will you get it from? Go you think it will be an effective

:41:17.:41:21.

way of saving money and cutting the welfare bill? They are talking

:41:21.:41:25.

about saving �500 million. The reason they are doing that is they

:41:25.:41:29.

know people will not move out of houses with a spare room because

:41:29.:41:34.

theer houses and flats are not available to them. George Osborne

:41:34.:41:38.

desperately needs the money off. Politically it is damaging to the

:41:38.:41:41.

Government. Ed Miliband has been successful. We are all talking

:41:41.:41:46.

about a bedroom tax, as you rightly point out, it is not a tax. Labour

:41:46.:41:50.

have a whole series of campaigns in the run-up to April. Remember in

:41:50.:41:54.

April we get the 1% updating in benefits. We get the maximum amount

:41:54.:41:59.

you can claim. You get the hoal councils are going to lose money in

:41:59.:42:04.

the amount they can pay in council tax benefit. There is a whole thing

:42:04.:42:08.

coming down the track, not to mention the beginning of universal

:42:08.:42:13.

credit, which could make life uncomfortable for the Government.

:42:13.:42:19.

It starts to sound to some people in Middle England, targeting voters.

:42:19.:42:24.

It plays well with traditional Labour voters. Thank you very much.

:42:24.:42:29.

Joining me for the rest of the programme we have the Tory MP Glenn

:42:29.:42:39.
:42:39.:42:44.

Glenn Glenn, -- John Glenn, Steve Reed and Tom Brake. It is a

:42:44.:42:48.

question of... Are they achievable? Are they affordable at this point

:42:48.:42:53.

in time? It would be irresponsible to say yes... It would be

:42:53.:42:58.

irresponsible, did you say? If you cannot see how they would stimulate

:42:58.:43:01.

the economy quickly enough to avoid interest rates going up. If the

:43:01.:43:04.

markets are not confident that interest rates, interest rates

:43:04.:43:07.

could go up and you will have problems with mortgages and the

:43:07.:43:10.

integrity of the Government's economic policy would be in

:43:10.:43:15.

question. There's no growth or very little over the past year. So, why

:43:15.:43:21.

not as people in your party are saying, well, let's try tax cuts?

:43:21.:43:25.

Because they have to be funded. If you make that move on tax cuts, you

:43:26.:43:31.

also have to have further cuts elsewhere to justify that. You have

:43:31.:43:40.

got to gain a political census across -- consensus across...

:43:40.:43:43.

don't think George Osborne should do anything? That is not what I

:43:43.:43:47.

said. In terms of tax cuts? should try. Which ones? Where he

:43:47.:43:51.

can see it will have the maximum stimulus on the economy. Where

:43:51.:43:55.

would you like to see them? I would like to see further ones to

:43:55.:43:59.

corporation tax. We need to see more investment in jobs. Do you

:43:59.:44:02.

agree with that? Of course the Government is implementing a tax

:44:02.:44:07.

cut on the first April. If you are a millionaire you will get on

:44:07.:44:11.

average �100,000 back in a tax cut, while they are increasing taxes on

:44:11.:44:15.

ordinary people with things like the increase on VAT. Would you

:44:15.:44:19.

agree with corporation tax - a cut in it? At the moment there's not

:44:19.:44:24.

enough to fund the services we need. I think we need to look at growth

:44:24.:44:27.

and from that growth deriver further revenues to fund things

:44:27.:44:31.

like tax cuts and investments. Labour does want and has been

:44:31.:44:36.

proposing tax cuts or would like to see a cut in VAT. We would like to

:44:36.:44:41.

see a national insurance holiday. They want to spend money. One thing

:44:41.:44:45.

Labour has proposed is a mansion tax on properties worth over �2

:44:45.:44:48.

million in order to fund the reintroduction of the 10p rate of

:44:48.:44:52.

tax, so people on lower incomes are paying less. That seems a fair way

:44:52.:45:02.
:45:02.:45:10.

The Labour Party are late on board, so to speak. If there are going to

:45:10.:45:14.

be - going to be scope for tax cuts, what I would like to see is the

:45:14.:45:16.

Government making yet more progress on delivering what we want to see

:45:16.:45:20.

in terms of a fairer society and that is increasing the tax

:45:20.:45:24.

thresholds so people on low and middle incomes - definitely going

:45:24.:45:28.

to hit the �10,000 threshold by 2015. That's an area where the

:45:28.:45:31.

Government can and should make progress and what that will mean,

:45:31.:45:34.

because this is money going to people on low and middle incomes

:45:34.:45:37.

it's money they're going to spend. We need people to spend money. They

:45:37.:45:41.

will spend it on the basics and that is what we need at this time.

:45:41.:45:45.

It will be a useful stimulus to the economy if you spend money raising

:45:45.:45:48.

the threshold, taking more people out of tax? I think it's a policy

:45:48.:45:52.

that I have always been relaxed about and the coalition is moving

:45:53.:45:56.

towards the aspiration to move up to �10,000. The question is will it

:45:56.:46:01.

encourage the investment decisions in jobs? The reality is that it's

:46:01.:46:05.

easy to make political points around the rich paying more tax,

:46:05.:46:10.

but the reality is that people need to make investment decisions in

:46:10.:46:13.

businesses and if they're not making investment in jobs and in

:46:14.:46:23.
:46:24.:46:26.

growth, then it's a sort of pryic victory when it's not going to have

:46:26.:46:32.

an kphebgt as -- affect, as a whole. We need to look at what is we are

:46:32.:46:36.

doing already. For instance, the investment in infrastructure.

:46:36.:46:39.

not working in terms of growth. 55,000 jobs are going to come on

:46:40.:46:44.

the back of Crossrail, we need to move forward with things like High

:46:44.:46:47.

Speed 2 to ensure that investment happens. It's Africa. We need that.

:46:47.:46:52.

-- it's infrastructure. We need that. Will you back Labour's

:46:52.:46:56.

proposal now for a mansion tax on properties worth �2 million.

:46:56.:47:00.

need to see what they say. But in practice we have been very clear

:47:00.:47:04.

this may well be a Liberal Democrat commitment in a Liberal Democrat

:47:04.:47:09.

manifesto in 2015. I am not going to sign up to what Labour - we have

:47:09.:47:13.

to see what they've got to say. For them to come on on board now is

:47:13.:47:18.

very late in the day. You came forward with a mansion tax policy.

:47:18.:47:21.

Labour are now putting it forward. There will be a vote. Which way

:47:21.:47:27.

will you vote? Let's wait and see precisely what they say. I think we

:47:27.:47:30.

are going to get another one of those apology videos from Nick

:47:30.:47:33.

Clegg when the Liberals don't vote for something that was in the

:47:33.:47:36.

manifesto. The reality is of course you are in coalition, you can't

:47:36.:47:40.

have everything you want. That's a pragmatic relationship of --

:47:40.:47:43.

reality of coalition. You know that. Are you happy that reports are

:47:43.:47:46.

saying nearly a quarter of those due to be affected by the so-called

:47:46.:47:50.

bedroom tax will be single parents? Well, I think it's very regrettable

:47:50.:47:53.

that we have got to take these tough decisions. The reality is we

:47:53.:47:58.

did inherit a massive amount of debt. You can't pay off debt

:47:58.:48:02.

quickly when you are income isn't rising. Should single parents take

:48:02.:48:08.

on that burden. There is a lot of discretion of how - all taxes are

:48:08.:48:13.

levied and all savings are saved and the reality is that local

:48:13.:48:16.

councils will make some of these decisions and there is a fund

:48:16.:48:24.

available to help those that are most vulnerable. Let's move on.

:48:24.:48:27.

Now yesterday the Justice Secretary, Chris Grayling, raised the prospect

:48:27.:48:30.

of a British exit from the European Convention on Human Rights. He

:48:30.:48:33.

stressed that change had to happen but when asked by the BBC's John

:48:33.:48:35.

Pienaar whether the Tories might pull out of the Convention

:48:35.:48:39.

altogether, Mr Grayling said that he had not ruled anything in or out.

:48:39.:48:41.

Here's a flavour of what he had to say.

:48:41.:48:43.

Well, I'm absolutely certain we will go into the next election with

:48:43.:48:46.

a plan for change. I think all of us agree that the current framework

:48:46.:48:49.

for human rights law in the UK is not what we would want it to be.

:48:49.:48:54.

Ironically f you look at the original convention in the 1940s

:48:54.:49:01.

and 50s, when Stalin was in power and people were sent to gulags

:49:01.:49:07.

without trial. Over 50 years, it's moved away from that. That was

:49:07.:49:12.

Chris Grayling. Should Britain pull out of the ECHR? Absolutely, I

:49:12.:49:15.

think many people across the country are fed up with the

:49:15.:49:18.

perverse decisions that come as a consequence of that. I have never

:49:18.:49:21.

understood why this is sometimes portrayed as a lurch to the right.

:49:21.:49:25.

I don't see why it's beyond British parliament to make decisions about

:49:25.:49:29.

human rights and how things work in our country. It seems that we are

:49:29.:49:33.

capable as a parliament of doing that. I think that what Chris is

:49:33.:49:38.

pursuing is a sensible way forward. What do you think? I don't agree

:49:38.:49:42.

with him nor I am sure does Kenneth Clarke. The convention has brought

:49:42.:49:48.

lots of benefits to the UK in terms of protecting press freedoms,

:49:48.:49:52.

providing access to pensions for widows and widowers. Actually it

:49:52.:49:55.

has made a positive contribution. Now I am not say thrg's no scope

:49:55.:50:01.

for -- there's no scope for reform. There are a lot of cases held in a

:50:01.:50:04.

backlog that we could process more quickly. The act and the convention

:50:04.:50:14.
:50:14.:50:15.

has been of benefit to the UK. For to us come out of it and join only

:50:15.:50:19.

bell only - would be a mistake. What the Tories aren't doing us is

:50:19.:50:24.

telling us what they would replace it with. What do they want to lose?

:50:24.:50:34.
:50:34.:50:34.

The convention prevents the Government ears dropping on

:50:34.:50:38.

citizens -- Eavesdropping on citizens. No way different

:50:38.:50:41.

hierarchy of things can be resolved. We need to have more control at

:50:41.:50:44.

domestic level. It's all very well saying these things can be reformed.

:50:44.:50:47.

They haven't been reformed and time and time again people in this

:50:47.:50:51.

country are frustrated that laws they hope are actually made in

:50:52.:50:55.

Westminster by their elected representatives, we have little

:50:55.:50:57.

authority over. What do you say about those frustrations people

:50:57.:51:01.

feel? They're not telling us. They're not telling us... What

:51:01.:51:07.

about frustrations? One of the benefits of the HRA decisions,

:51:07.:51:11.

instead of being taken by British judges in British courts, will be

:51:11.:51:14.

taken by European judges in Strasbourg. Is that what the Tories

:51:14.:51:20.

want to do, hand more power to kwrorp. -- to Europe? We need to

:51:20.:51:24.

have control in Westminster. We need to have British politicians

:51:24.:51:28.

making rules about what we see as important in terms of human rights,

:51:28.:51:33.

what hierarchy they actually take... The convention was the product of

:51:33.:51:39.

British diplomacy. Time has moved on, rather a lot since then. We

:51:39.:51:44.

need reform urgently. convention has really to show that

:51:44.:51:48.

- that the British don't always take the right decisions. Access to

:51:48.:51:51.

pensions for widows and widowers that's come as a result of the

:51:52.:51:54.

European convention has been of great benefit to British citizens.

:51:54.:51:58.

We need to take that into account. Nothing would prevent us from doing

:51:58.:52:08.

that ourselves either. Right. So amongst the advice, analysis, and

:52:08.:52:10.

criticisms for the political parties post-Eastleigh one thing

:52:10.:52:12.

seems to affect them all. The seemingly all pervasive view that

:52:12.:52:16.

they are indeed all the same. It's not a new thought, and perhaps

:52:16.:52:18.

explains why political rebels have always attracted attention. One

:52:18.:52:21.

Westminster website has drawn up a list of this parliaments rebels but

:52:21.:52:24.

as in-house bad boy Giles Dilnot has been discovering the new rebels

:52:24.:52:34.
:52:34.:52:40.

actually play within the rules. From long before the invention of

:52:40.:52:50.
:52:50.:53:03.

the internal come the -- combustion engine Politics has had rebels.

:53:03.:53:06.

People who like to drive straight through convention and leave tyre

:53:06.:53:09.

marks on the best laid plans of Government, so Politics.co.uk

:53:09.:53:11.

compiling a list celebrating a current crop of feisty folk might

:53:11.:53:21.

not rev your motor but there IS a difference $:/ENDFEED..

:53:21.:53:30.

One thing I quite strongly recept is being skaoeub -- resent is being

:53:30.:53:34.

described as a rebel. I am elected by the good people to be a member

:53:34.:53:38.

of parliament, not a member of the Government. And certainly not

:53:38.:53:42.

elected to be a Patsy for the whips office for front bench. I would

:53:42.:53:46.

call myself an independent-minded loyalist. I am sure it's going to

:53:46.:53:51.

be carved in me somewhere when I die. You have to stand up for

:53:51.:53:56.

things and there's ways of going about it. I have made a nuisance of

:53:56.:53:59.

myself from time to time. But I have tried to do it in a

:53:59.:54:02.

constructive way. Whether it's Carswell gearing up

:54:02.:54:10.

with a number of issues, on fuel and 10p tax, Creasy rolling with

:54:11.:54:16.

payday loans or Field, Goldsmith and Clarke carving their own way

:54:16.:54:20.

through traffic, is it all principle or is that ego to them

:54:20.:54:24.

all? There isn't an ego but I have always been a politician who does

:54:24.:54:30.

say it as it is. It's been my strength. It's also been my

:54:30.:54:33.

weakness because when I was part of the collective Ministerial team

:54:33.:54:36.

there were times when I probably said things I shouldn't have done.

:54:37.:54:41.

But get used to this, because we may see much more of it.

:54:41.:54:45.

Politicians are realising now they look back at the 2010 election

:54:45.:54:50.

where we saw unpredictable results, part of the reason was MPs are

:54:50.:54:55.

becoming better at selling themselves rather than the party.

:54:55.:54:59.

Leather rosettes, biker gang cabinet anyone? Giles enjoyed that

:54:59.:55:05.

too much I think. So, have you ever rebelled? I have only only been

:55:05.:55:09.

there a few weeks! Are you going to be a rebel with a cause? We have to

:55:09.:55:13.

wait and see what issues come up. We have a party system for a reason.

:55:13.:55:18.

People need to know what they're voting for when they put X next to

:55:18.:55:22.

your name. Most don't know who we are individually, they know the

:55:22.:55:25.

party label and know policies they're voting for and that's

:55:25.:55:30.

helpful. Have you rebelled? I can't say I am a known rebel within the

:55:30.:55:33.

Lib Dems, but the advantage of the Liberal Democrats is we are a

:55:33.:55:36.

relatively small part, I suppose, compared to the other two. On the

:55:36.:55:40.

whole, our views coincide so I think naturally we are less

:55:40.:55:45.

rebellious. I suppose we have had to fight on many fronts for many

:55:45.:55:47.

years and that binds us together more effectively perhaps than the

:55:47.:55:52.

other two parties. Lots of rebels and they would argue with a great

:55:52.:55:56.

cause. I think you need to draw a distension between a rebel and

:55:56.:56:05.

being an effective campaigner -- distinction. You have understood

:56:05.:56:09.

the film obviously completely. Well done. Is this the beginning of the

:56:09.:56:14.

end for party politics and discipline that now campaigns are

:56:14.:56:18.

taking on a life of their own and the 2010 intake are proving that?

:56:18.:56:22.

To some degree, it's about emphasis. If you asked Douglas Carswell if he

:56:22.:56:26.

was going to stand at the next election as an independent he would

:56:26.:56:30.

quickly say no. At the end of the day there is lots more in common

:56:30.:56:35.

than not. So, whilst he has very clear views that sometimes are at

:56:35.:56:38.

odds with the Government, he still wants to stand as a Conservative.

:56:38.:56:43.

There is also an issue about safe seats and marginal seats. There are

:56:43.:56:48.

times when those, we will find out closer to the election, are going

:56:48.:56:52.

to tpoeut for that -- fight for that seat and views in that

:56:52.:56:55.

constituency, whether or not it's anything to do with their party

:56:55.:56:58.

line. That's true and issues on which individual members of

:56:58.:57:01.

parliament take a different view. Is that a good thing, will it

:57:01.:57:08.

inspire people to be more independently-minded? We don't want

:57:08.:57:12.

people who are stereo types. The backbench business committee, a new

:57:12.:57:17.

innovation, is something that has enabled Robert Halfon for instance,

:57:17.:57:21.

and others to push heard on an agenda -- hard on an agenda which

:57:21.:57:25.

perhaps past governments wouldn't have allowed time to do. Are you

:57:25.:57:31.

into campaigns as opposed to sticking to the political line.

:57:31.:57:34.

are elected by constituents to represent that constituency and

:57:34.:57:37.

every constituency is different. For instance, Croydon North which I

:57:37.:57:41.

represent, big problem in the riots a year-and-a-half ago. Hundreds of

:57:41.:57:45.

people hadn't had compensation despite being promised it. I have

:57:45.:57:48.

to stand and want to stand full square with those people to fight

:57:48.:57:52.

for their rights. That's a constituency issue. It isn't

:57:52.:57:55.

necessarily against your party, is it? The key thing there is I am

:57:55.:58:00.

fighting for the people that elected me. All right. Rebels, not

:58:00.:58:04.

rebels with or without a cause! Time before we go to find out the

:58:04.:58:14.
:58:14.:58:15.

answer to our quiz. What other female first can

:58:15.:58:21.

Grantham lay claim to. The first woman to be a firefighter, brain

:58:21.:58:26.

surgeon, astronaut or police officer? Have a go. Police officer.

:58:26.:58:31.

Astronaut. Police officer. You are going too sky high there! You have

:58:31.:58:35.

it right. Congratulations. There are no prizes, I have to tell you.

:58:35.:58:40.

You can come on again! Now that's it for today. Thank you to our

:58:40.:58:46.

Jo Coburn with the latest political news, interviews and debate. With guest Jude Kelly, artistic director of the Southbank Centre.


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