05/03/2013 Daily Politics


05/03/2013

Jo Coburn is joined by crossbencher Baroness Neuberger to discuss the mid-Staffordshire hospital investigation and all of today's other political news, interviews and debate.


Similar Content

Browse content similar to 05/03/2013. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

good afternoon and welcome to the good afternoon and welcome to the

:00:42.:00:43.

Daily Politics. Should the chief Daily Politics. Should the chief

:00:44.:00:45.

Daily Politics. Should the chief Daily Politics. Should the chief

:00:45.:00:45.

executive of the NHS quit over the executive of the NHS quit over the

:00:45.:00:46.

executive of the NHS quit over the failings by Mid Staffordshire trust?

:00:46.:00:49.

failings by Mid Staffordshire trust? Beleaguered health boss David

:00:49.:00:50.

Beleaguered health boss David Beleaguered health boss David

:00:50.:00:50.

Nicholson appeared in front of the Nicholson appeared in front of the

:00:51.:00:51.

Nicholson appeared in front of the health select committee this morning

:00:51.:00:53.

health select committee this morning health select committee this morning

:00:53.:00:54.

to answer questions on where to answer questions on where

:00:54.:00:56.

to answer questions on where responsibility lies. We will have

:00:56.:00:57.

the latest. the latest.

:00:57.:00:58.

the latest. the latest.

:00:58.:00:59.

A new report for the Labour Party A new report for the Labour Party

:00:59.:01:00.

A new report for the Labour Party says British business is too focused

:01:00.:01:01.

says British business is too focused on short-term rewards.

:01:01.:01:04.

on short-term rewards. on short-term rewards.

:01:04.:01:04.

on short-term rewards. Ten years on, how did the Iraq war

:01:04.:01:07.

Ten years on, how did the Iraq war change the world?

:01:07.:01:09.

change the world? change the world?

:01:09.:01:10.

And dramatic scenes from the whip's And dramatic scenes from the whip's

:01:10.:01:11.

And dramatic scenes from the whip's office as a former Labour minister

:01:11.:01:18.

office as a former Labour minister meets her onstage self.

:01:18.:01:19.

meets her onstage self. meets her onstage self.

:01:19.:01:20.

meets her onstage self. All that in the next hour. With us

:01:21.:01:22.

All that in the next hour. With us All that in the next hour. With us

:01:22.:01:23.

for the whole program today is for the whole program today is

:01:23.:01:25.

for the whole program today is Baroness Neuberger. She sits as a

:01:25.:01:25.

Baroness Neuberger. She sits as a Baroness Neuberger. She sits as a

:01:25.:01:26.

crossbench peer in the House of crossbench peer in the House of

:01:26.:01:28.

crossbench peer in the House of Lords, having previously taken the

:01:28.:01:29.

Lords, having previously taken the Lords, having previously taken the

:01:29.:01:30.

Lords, having previously taken the Lib Dem whip until she became senior

:01:30.:01:31.

Lib Dem whip until she became senior Lib Dem whip until she became senior

:01:31.:01:34.

rabbi to the west London Synagogue rabbi to the west London Synagogue

:01:34.:01:36.

rabbi to the west London Synagogue in 2011. First today, health league

:01:36.:01:37.

in 2011. First today, health league in 2011. First today, health league

:01:37.:01:38.

tables published by the Lancet tables published by the Lancet

:01:38.:01:39.

tables published by the Lancet magazine show the UK is lagging

:01:39.:01:40.

magazine show the UK is lagging magazine show the UK is lagging

:01:40.:01:41.

behind similar countries on a range behind similar countries on a range

:01:41.:01:43.

behind similar countries on a range of health indicators. But expect to

:01:43.:01:44.

of health indicators. But expect to of health indicators. But expect to

:01:44.:01:46.

of health indicators. But expect to see has gone up, but people in 21

:01:46.:01:46.

see has gone up, but people in 21 see has gone up, but people in 21

:01:46.:01:47.

other countries live longer and other countries live longer and

:01:47.:01:50.

other countries live longer and healthier lives in Britain is. The

:01:50.:01:51.

healthier lives in Britain is. The report author, Professor John

:01:51.:01:53.

report author, Professor John report author, Professor John

:01:53.:01:53.

report author, Professor John Newton, has said people need to pay

:01:53.:01:54.

Newton, has said people need to pay Newton, has said people need to pay

:01:54.:01:59.

more attention to their lifestyles. more attention to their lifestyles.

:01:59.:01:59.

more attention to their lifestyles. more attention to their lifestyles.

:01:59.:02:01.

There are three areas where we need There are three areas where we need

:02:01.:02:02.

There are three areas where we need There are three areas where we need

:02:02.:02:05.

to look. One is that the Health to look. One is that the Health

:02:06.:02:06.

to look. One is that the Health Authority -- the Health authorities

:02:06.:02:11.

Authority -- the Health authorities Authority -- the Health authorities

:02:11.:02:11.

like the NHS. Then there is like the NHS. Then there is

:02:11.:02:13.

like the NHS. Then there is like the NHS. Then there is

:02:13.:02:13.

ourselves, but in between there is a ourselves, but in between there is a

:02:13.:02:15.

range of organisations, businesses range of organisations, businesses

:02:15.:02:16.

and public authorities that and public authorities that

:02:16.:02:17.

and public authorities that and public authorities that

:02:17.:02:18.

influence the way we live, and they influence the way we live, and they

:02:18.:02:20.

influence the way we live, and they influence the way we live, and they

:02:20.:02:21.

have to do things, too. All of those have to do things, too. All of those

:02:21.:02:22.

have to do things, too. All of those together add up to a healthier

:02:22.:02:25.

together add up to a healthier country. Baroness Neuberger, after

:02:25.:02:27.

country. Baroness Neuberger, after country. Baroness Neuberger, after

:02:27.:02:28.

country. Baroness Neuberger, after ten years or so of real terms rises

:02:28.:02:29.

ten years or so of real terms rises ten years or so of real terms rises

:02:29.:02:30.

in health spending, why are we in health spending, why are we

:02:30.:02:31.

in health spending, why are we lagging behind so many other

:02:31.:02:34.

lagging behind so many other lagging behind so many other

:02:34.:02:35.

lagging behind so many other nations? There are a lot of reasons

:02:35.:02:36.

nations? There are a lot of reasons nations? There are a lot of reasons

:02:36.:02:36.

nations? There are a lot of reasons for that. I could bang on about this

:02:36.:02:39.

for that. I could bang on about this for that. I could bang on about this

:02:39.:02:40.

for about, having once been chief for about, having once been chief

:02:40.:02:41.

for about, having once been chief for about, having once been chief

:02:41.:02:42.

executive of the kids fund. Has it executive of the kids fund. Has it

:02:42.:02:44.

executive of the kids fund. Has it executive of the kids fund. Has it

:02:44.:02:45.

been a waste of money? No. Firstly, been a waste of money? No. Firstly,

:02:45.:02:47.

been a waste of money? No. Firstly, been a waste of money? No. Firstly,

:02:47.:02:48.

we need to look at where the money we need to look at where the money

:02:48.:02:51.

we need to look at where the money went and what the productivity ratio

:02:51.:02:52.

went and what the productivity ratio went and what the productivity ratio

:02:52.:02:53.

is. There is interesting data coming is. There is interesting data coming

:02:53.:02:55.

is. There is interesting data coming is. There is interesting data coming

:02:55.:02:55.

out from the Nuffield trust on that, out from the Nuffield trust on that,

:02:55.:02:58.

out from the Nuffield trust on that, out from the Nuffield trust on that,

:02:58.:02:58.

looking at what we do with the looking at what we do with the

:02:59.:03:00.

looking at what we do with the money. Secondly, it takes decades to

:03:00.:03:01.

money. Secondly, it takes decades to money. Secondly, it takes decades to

:03:01.:03:01.

money. Secondly, it takes decades to change things. It is only in the

:03:01.:03:04.

change things. It is only in the change things. It is only in the

:03:04.:03:04.

change things. It is only in the last decade that we have had this

:03:04.:03:06.

last decade that we have had this last decade that we have had this

:03:06.:03:06.

extra investment. People forget that extra investment. People forget that

:03:06.:03:08.

extra investment. People forget that extra investment. People forget that

:03:08.:03:09.

extra investment. People forget that if you want to see a real change in

:03:09.:03:10.

if you want to see a real change in if you want to see a real change in

:03:10.:03:11.

mortality and morbidity, you have to mortality and morbidity, you have to

:03:11.:03:12.

mortality and morbidity, you have to mortality and morbidity, you have to

:03:12.:03:15.

look at a 25 to 30 year cycle. look at a 25 to 30 year cycle.

:03:15.:03:15.

look at a 25 to 30 year cycle. Increased spending over the last ten

:03:15.:03:16.

Increased spending over the last ten Increased spending over the last ten

:03:16.:03:17.

Increased spending over the last ten years will not show a great deal.

:03:18.:03:21.

years will not show a great deal. years will not show a great deal.

:03:21.:03:23.

Thirdly, it is about public health Thirdly, it is about public health

:03:23.:03:24.

Thirdly, it is about public health Thirdly, it is about public health

:03:24.:03:26.

and the lack of concentration on it. and the lack of concentration on it.

:03:26.:03:27.

and the lack of concentration on it. and the lack of concentration on it.

:03:27.:03:28.

We talk about our Secretary of State We talk about our Secretary of State

:03:28.:03:29.

We talk about our Secretary of State for health as being the person

:03:29.:03:31.

for health as being the person for health as being the person

:03:31.:03:32.

responsible for the health service. responsible for the health service.

:03:32.:03:33.

responsible for the health service. Actually, the secretary of state for

:03:33.:03:36.

Actually, the secretary of state for Actually, the secretary of state for

:03:36.:03:37.

Actually, the secretary of state for health ought to be the Secretary of

:03:37.:03:38.

health ought to be the Secretary of health ought to be the Secretary of

:03:38.:03:39.

State for the nation's health and State for the nation's health and

:03:39.:03:41.

State for the nation's health and State for the nation's health and

:03:41.:03:42.

the emphasis ought to be more on the emphasis ought to be more on

:03:42.:03:43.

the emphasis ought to be more on prevention. That is partly about

:03:43.:03:44.

prevention. That is partly about prevention. That is partly about

:03:44.:03:44.

lifestyle and partly about women lifestyle and partly about women

:03:44.:03:47.

lifestyle and partly about women policy which encourage us to do

:03:47.:03:48.

policy which encourage us to do policy which encourage us to do

:03:48.:03:49.

something differently. There is a something differently. There is a

:03:49.:03:50.

something differently. There is a sense that in times of austerity,

:03:50.:03:51.

sense that in times of austerity, sense that in times of austerity,

:03:51.:03:52.

although health spending is still although health spending is still

:03:52.:03:53.

although health spending is still going up, public health campaigns

:03:53.:03:56.

going up, public health campaigns going up, public health campaigns

:03:56.:03:56.

going up, public health campaigns have suffered in that is not as much

:03:56.:03:59.

have suffered in that is not as much have suffered in that is not as much

:03:59.:04:01.

have suffered in that is not as much money is going into them. We are

:04:01.:04:02.

money is going into them. We are money is going into them. We are

:04:02.:04:03.

seeing the results of the seeing the results of the

:04:03.:04:04.

anti-smoking campaign, but smoking anti-smoking campaign, but smoking

:04:04.:04:05.

anti-smoking campaign, but smoking is still the highest cause of

:04:05.:04:06.

is still the highest cause of is still the highest cause of

:04:06.:04:08.

diseases leading to damage or diseases leading to damage or

:04:08.:04:09.

diseases leading to damage or diseases leading to damage or

:04:10.:04:10.

death. That is why people are saying death. That is why people are saying

:04:10.:04:11.

death. That is why people are saying we should have plain packaging for

:04:11.:04:12.

we should have plain packaging for we should have plain packaging for

:04:12.:04:14.

we should have plain packaging for cigarettes and so on. But there are

:04:14.:04:15.

cigarettes and so on. But there are cigarettes and so on. But there are

:04:15.:04:15.

also other things. I chaired a also other things. I chaired a

:04:15.:04:18.

also other things. I chaired a committee on behaviour change should

:04:18.:04:19.

committee on behaviour change should committee on behaviour change should

:04:19.:04:22.

and the science behind behavioural and the science behind behavioural

:04:22.:04:23.

psychology and behavioural psychology and behavioural

:04:23.:04:24.

psychology and behavioural psychology and behavioural

:04:24.:04:24.

economics. There is a lot more we economics. There is a lot more we

:04:24.:04:28.

economics. There is a lot more we could do with food packaging. Having

:04:28.:04:31.

could do with food packaging. Having could do with food packaging. Having

:04:31.:04:31.

traffic light food labelling seems traffic light food labelling seems

:04:31.:04:35.

traffic light food labelling seems traffic light food labelling seems

:04:35.:04:36.

to have quite a powerful effect. Why to have quite a powerful effect. Why

:04:36.:04:37.

to have quite a powerful effect. Why aren't we doing that more widely?

:04:37.:04:38.

aren't we doing that more widely? aren't we doing that more widely?

:04:38.:04:39.

aren't we doing that more widely? Why aren't we saying to people, be

:04:39.:04:41.

Why aren't we saying to people, be Why aren't we saying to people, be

:04:41.:04:42.

careful what you eat? What about careful what you eat? What about

:04:42.:04:43.

careful what you eat? What about high blood pressure? I was surprised

:04:43.:04:44.

high blood pressure? I was surprised high blood pressure? I was surprised

:04:44.:04:45.

high blood pressure? I was surprised high blood pressure? I was surprised

:04:45.:04:47.

that that is still a big pub in the that that is still a big pub in the

:04:47.:04:48.

that that is still a big pub in the that that is still a big pub in the

:04:48.:04:51.

UK, when your GP tests BP on a UK, when your GP tests BP on a

:04:52.:04:52.

UK, when your GP tests BP on a UK, when your GP tests BP on a

:04:52.:04:53.

regular basis. If you go to your GP. regular basis. If you go to your GP.

:04:53.:04:55.

regular basis. If you go to your GP. regular basis. If you go to your GP.

:04:55.:04:56.

But look at the incidence of people But look at the incidence of people

:04:56.:04:58.

But look at the incidence of people not going to their GPs, particularly

:04:58.:04:59.

not going to their GPs, particularly not going to their GPs, particularly

:04:59.:05:00.

not going to their GPs, particularly men. Women go to their GP far more

:05:00.:05:01.

men. Women go to their GP far more men. Women go to their GP far more

:05:01.:05:02.

men. Women go to their GP far more than men. People do not go until it

:05:02.:05:03.

than men. People do not go until it than men. People do not go until it

:05:03.:05:04.

than men. People do not go until it is too late. There is a whole thing

:05:04.:05:06.

is too late. There is a whole thing is too late. There is a whole thing

:05:06.:05:10.

about what GPs themselves could do. about what GPs themselves could do.

:05:10.:05:11.

about what GPs themselves could do. We are not spending enough on

:05:11.:05:15.

We are not spending enough on We are not spending enough on

:05:15.:05:17.

primary care and prevention. They primary care and prevention. They

:05:17.:05:18.

primary care and prevention. They primary care and prevention. They

:05:18.:05:18.

primary care and prevention. They should call you in to see your GP to

:05:18.:05:19.

should call you in to see your GP to should call you in to see your GP to

:05:19.:05:20.

test your blood pressure more often, test your blood pressure more often,

:05:20.:05:22.

test your blood pressure more often, test your blood pressure more often,

:05:22.:05:22.

or you could do it yourself. Home or you could do it yourself. Home

:05:22.:05:24.

or you could do it yourself. Home testing, something to look forward

:05:24.:05:25.

testing, something to look forward testing, something to look forward

:05:25.:05:27.

testing, something to look forward to. There is no reason we shouldn't

:05:27.:05:28.

to. There is no reason we shouldn't to. There is no reason we shouldn't

:05:28.:05:29.

provided we do it well. provided we do it well.

:05:29.:05:31.

provided we do it well. There has been pressure on David

:05:31.:05:32.

There has been pressure on David There has been pressure on David

:05:32.:05:33.

Nicholson, the head of the English Nicholson, the head of the English

:05:33.:05:35.

Nicholson, the head of the English NHS, since the publication of the

:05:35.:05:35.

NHS, since the publication of the NHS, since the publication of the

:05:35.:05:37.

Francis report into the abuse and Francis report into the abuse and

:05:38.:05:38.

Francis report into the abuse and neglect that led to hundreds of

:05:38.:05:39.

neglect that led to hundreds of hospital deaths in Mid

:05:39.:05:41.

hospital deaths in Mid hospital deaths in Mid

:05:41.:05:42.

Staffordshire. The report said there Staffordshire. The report said there

:05:42.:05:43.

Staffordshire. The report said there Staffordshire. The report said there

:05:43.:05:44.

had been a failing at every level of had been a failing at every level of

:05:44.:05:45.

had been a failing at every level of the NHS system to prevent the

:05:45.:05:46.

the NHS system to prevent the appalling and unnecessary suffering

:05:46.:05:49.

appalling and unnecessary suffering appalling and unnecessary suffering

:05:49.:05:51.

of hundreds of people. David of hundreds of people. David

:05:51.:05:51.

of hundreds of people. David Nicholson led the regional authority

:05:51.:05:52.

Nicholson led the regional authority overseeing the mid-Staffs trust

:05:52.:05:54.

overseeing the mid-Staffs trust overseeing the mid-Staffs trust

:05:54.:05:55.

during the period in question, during the period in question,

:05:56.:05:56.

during the period in question, before going on to become chief

:05:57.:05:58.

before going on to become chief before going on to become chief

:05:58.:05:59.

executive of the English health executive of the English health

:05:59.:06:00.

executive of the English health service. He has been accused by

:06:00.:06:01.

service. He has been accused by service. He has been accused by

:06:01.:06:02.

relatives of the dead of residing relatives of the dead of residing

:06:02.:06:04.

relatives of the dead of residing over the worst disaster in the

:06:04.:06:05.

over the worst disaster in the over the worst disaster in the

:06:05.:06:06.

history of the NHS. The charges history of the NHS. The charges

:06:06.:06:07.

history of the NHS. The charges against him have grown in recent

:06:07.:06:08.

against him have grown in recent weeks, with revelations that

:06:08.:06:11.

weeks, with revelations that whistleblowers, like former hospital

:06:11.:06:13.

whistleblowers, like former hospital whistleblowers, like former hospital

:06:13.:06:14.

chief Gary Walker, who warned that chief Gary Walker, who warned that

:06:14.:06:16.

chief Gary Walker, who warned that targets were being prioritised over

:06:16.:06:18.

targets were being prioritised over targets were being prioritised over

:06:18.:06:19.

targets were being prioritised over care, and were then forced out of

:06:19.:06:20.

care, and were then forced out of care, and were then forced out of

:06:20.:06:21.

care, and were then forced out of the NHS and gagged. There have been

:06:21.:06:22.

the NHS and gagged. There have been the NHS and gagged. There have been

:06:22.:06:22.

the NHS and gagged. There have been claims in a tribunal this week that

:06:22.:06:23.

claims in a tribunal this week that claims in a tribunal this week that

:06:23.:06:24.

staff at Stafford Hospital were staff at Stafford Hospital were

:06:24.:06:27.

staff at Stafford Hospital were ordered to write fake casualties

:06:27.:06:28.

ordered to write fake casualties ordered to write fake casualties

:06:28.:06:29.

records to meet waiting time records to meet waiting time

:06:29.:06:31.

targets, claims those involved targets, claims those involved

:06:31.:06:33.

targets, claims those involved targets, claims those involved

:06:33.:06:33.

denied. In his report into the Mid denied. In his report into the Mid

:06:33.:06:34.

Staffordshire scandal, Robert Staffordshire scandal, Robert

:06:34.:06:35.

Staffordshire scandal, Robert Staffordshire scandal, Robert

:06:35.:06:36.

Francis said he did not want to see Francis said he did not want to see

:06:36.:06:37.

Francis said he did not want to see a hunt for scapegoats, and David

:06:37.:06:38.

a hunt for scapegoats, and David a hunt for scapegoats, and David

:06:38.:06:39.

Nicholson has the support of the Nicholson has the support of the

:06:39.:06:40.

Nicholson has the support of the government. But there have been

:06:40.:06:41.

government. But there have been government. But there have been

:06:42.:06:42.

government. But there have been calls from some MPs for him to

:06:42.:06:43.

calls from some MPs for him to calls from some MPs for him to

:06:44.:06:45.

resign, and this morning he faced resign, and this morning he faced

:06:45.:06:45.

resign, and this morning he faced questions from the Commons health

:06:45.:06:49.

questions from the Commons health questions from the Commons health

:06:49.:06:49.

select committee. Jury that period, select committee. Jury that period,

:06:49.:06:56.

select committee. Jury that period, select committee. Jury that period,

:06:56.:06:57.

across the NHS as a whole, patients across the NHS as a whole, patients

:06:57.:06:58.

across the NHS as a whole, patients across the NHS as a whole, patients

:06:58.:07:00.

were not the centre of the way the were not the centre of the way the

:07:00.:07:02.

were not the centre of the way the system operated, for a variety of

:07:02.:07:02.

system operated, for a variety of system operated, for a variety of

:07:03.:07:03.

reasons. Not because we were bad, reasons. Not because we were bad,

:07:03.:07:04.

reasons. Not because we were bad, reasons. Not because we were bad,

:07:04.:07:07.

but because there was a set of but because there was a set of

:07:07.:07:08.

but because there was a set of changes going on. There were things

:07:08.:07:10.

changes going on. There were things changes going on. There were things

:07:10.:07:13.

changes going on. There were things we were being to -- being held to

:07:13.:07:13.

we were being to -- being held to we were being to -- being held to

:07:13.:07:14.

account for from the centre which account for from the centre which

:07:14.:07:16.

account for from the centre which created an environment where the

:07:16.:07:17.

created an environment where the created an environment where the

:07:17.:07:18.

leadership of the NHS lost its leadership of the NHS lost its

:07:18.:07:19.

leadership of the NHS lost its leadership of the NHS lost its

:07:19.:07:21.

leadership of the NHS lost its focus. I put my hands up to that.

:07:21.:07:22.

focus. I put my hands up to that. focus. I put my hands up to that.

:07:22.:07:23.

focus. I put my hands up to that. is a funny trick that people do in

:07:23.:07:25.

is a funny trick that people do in is a funny trick that people do in

:07:25.:07:26.

is a funny trick that people do in the witness stand is. They say they

:07:26.:07:27.

the witness stand is. They say they the witness stand is. They say they

:07:27.:07:27.

the witness stand is. They say they can't remember. You seem to be able

:07:27.:07:29.

can't remember. You seem to be able can't remember. You seem to be able

:07:29.:07:29.

can't remember. You seem to be able to not remember lots of things that

:07:29.:07:32.

to not remember lots of things that to not remember lots of things that

:07:32.:07:35.

to not remember lots of things that go on. In paragraph 116, I cannot

:07:35.:07:36.

go on. In paragraph 116, I cannot go on. In paragraph 116, I cannot

:07:36.:07:39.

with -- recall what we specifically with -- recall what we specifically

:07:39.:07:40.

with -- recall what we specifically discussed with regards to the

:07:40.:07:41.

discussed with regards to the discussed with regards to the

:07:41.:07:43.

discussed with regards to the recovery plan. It is not a trick.I

:07:43.:07:48.

recovery plan. It is not a trick.I recovery plan. It is not a trick.I

:07:48.:07:49.

was responsible for 54 to 56 was responsible for 54 to 56

:07:49.:07:50.

was responsible for 54 to 56 organisations. About two thirds of

:07:50.:07:52.

organisations. About two thirds of organisations. About two thirds of

:07:52.:07:54.

them, I had literally never been them, I had literally never been

:07:54.:07:56.

them, I had literally never been involved with before. They were

:07:56.:07:57.

involved with before. They were involved with before. They were

:07:57.:07:58.

involved with before. They were brand-new to me, so I was going

:07:58.:07:58.

brand-new to me, so I was going brand-new to me, so I was going

:07:59.:07:59.

brand-new to me, so I was going through this for the first time. The

:07:59.:08:00.

through this for the first time. The through this for the first time. The

:08:01.:08:01.

through this for the first time. The idea that I could recall in detail

:08:01.:08:03.

idea that I could recall in detail idea that I could recall in detail

:08:03.:08:05.

idea that I could recall in detail each of the meetings I had, it is

:08:05.:08:06.

each of the meetings I had, it is each of the meetings I had, it is

:08:06.:08:08.

each of the meetings I had, it is quite difficult. It is not a trick.

:08:08.:08:09.

quite difficult. It is not a trick. quite difficult. It is not a trick.

:08:09.:08:10.

quite difficult. It is not a trick. This is what we are trying to find

:08:10.:08:13.

This is what we are trying to find This is what we are trying to find

:08:13.:08:13.

This is what we are trying to find out. Is it appropriate for you as

:08:13.:08:14.

out. Is it appropriate for you as out. Is it appropriate for you as

:08:14.:08:16.

the head of the NHS commissioning the head of the NHS commissioning

:08:16.:08:17.

the head of the NHS commissioning the head of the NHS commissioning

:08:17.:08:18.

board to have all this power? board to have all this power?

:08:18.:08:19.

board to have all this power? far do you take responsibility for

:08:19.:08:20.

far do you take responsibility for far do you take responsibility for

:08:20.:08:24.

an organisation that has been showed an organisation that has been showed

:08:24.:08:25.

an organisation that has been showed to minimise patient complaints, to

:08:25.:08:26.

to minimise patient complaints, to to minimise patient complaints, to

:08:26.:08:27.

guard whistleblowers, to amass large guard whistleblowers, to amass large

:08:27.:08:30.

guard whistleblowers, to amass large mortality data and bury bad news?

:08:30.:08:30.

mortality data and bury bad news? mortality data and bury bad news?

:08:30.:08:32.

mortality data and bury bad news? And frankly, to lose sight of the

:08:32.:08:33.

And frankly, to lose sight of the And frankly, to lose sight of the

:08:33.:08:34.

And frankly, to lose sight of the patient in the bed? I don't accept

:08:34.:08:34.

patient in the bed? I don't accept patient in the bed? I don't accept

:08:34.:08:38.

patient in the bed? I don't accept the way you have described the NHS.

:08:38.:08:39.

the way you have described the NHS. the way you have described the NHS.

:08:39.:08:40.

the way you have described the NHS. It is a much more balanced picture

:08:40.:08:42.

It is a much more balanced picture It is a much more balanced picture

:08:42.:08:46.

It is a much more balanced picture than that. Secondly, I have spent 35

:08:46.:08:47.

than that. Secondly, I have spent 35 than that. Secondly, I have spent 35

:08:47.:08:52.

than that. Secondly, I have spent 35 years as Chief Executive of the NHS.

:08:52.:08:53.

years as Chief Executive of the NHS. years as Chief Executive of the NHS.

:08:53.:08:54.

I am completely dedicated to I am completely dedicated to

:08:54.:08:56.

I am completely dedicated to improving services for patients. Of

:08:56.:08:57.

improving services for patients. Of improving services for patients. Of

:08:57.:08:58.

improving services for patients. Of course when I hear bad stories, I

:08:58.:08:59.

course when I hear bad stories, I feel responsible. Like everyone

:08:59.:09:01.

feel responsible. Like everyone feel responsible. Like everyone

:09:01.:09:02.

feel responsible. Like everyone else, I listened to people and talk

:09:02.:09:04.

else, I listened to people and talk else, I listened to people and talk

:09:05.:09:05.

to people. I have a privileged to people. I have a privileged

:09:05.:09:06.

to people. I have a privileged to people. I have a privileged

:09:07.:09:08.

position where I can try to do position where I can try to do

:09:08.:09:10.

something about it. something about it.

:09:10.:09:11.

something about it. With us now the shadow health

:09:11.:09:12.

With us now the shadow health With us now the shadow health

:09:12.:09:13.

minister Andrew Gwynne and the minister Andrew Gwynne and the

:09:13.:09:15.

Conservative Charlotte Leslie. Conservative Charlotte Leslie.

:09:15.:09:17.

Conservative Charlotte Leslie. Charlotte, you want him to step

:09:17.:09:19.

Charlotte, you want him to step Charlotte, you want him to step

:09:19.:09:21.

down. Was there anything in that down. Was there anything in that

:09:21.:09:21.

down. Was there anything in that performance that has convinced you

:09:21.:09:25.

performance that has convinced you performance that has convinced you

:09:25.:09:26.

performance that has convinced you you should stay? I am afraid not. He

:09:26.:09:27.

you should stay? I am afraid not. He you should stay? I am afraid not. He

:09:27.:09:27.

you should stay? I am afraid not. He reinforced the idea that as long as

:09:27.:09:28.

reinforced the idea that as long as reinforced the idea that as long as

:09:28.:09:30.

reinforced the idea that as long as reinforced the idea that as long as

:09:30.:09:30.

the system says it is OK, it is OK. the system says it is OK, it is OK.

:09:30.:09:31.

the system says it is OK, it is OK. the system says it is OK, it is OK.

:09:31.:09:32.

He was asked a number of times about He was asked a number of times about

:09:32.:09:33.

He was asked a number of times about what he personally took an

:09:33.:09:34.

what he personally took an what he personally took an

:09:34.:09:35.

initiative to do, and he always initiative to do, and he always

:09:35.:09:37.

initiative to do, and he always referred to the system. 2-macro key

:09:37.:09:39.

referred to the system. 2-macro key referred to the system. 2-macro key

:09:39.:09:40.

questions were left unanswered. The questions were left unanswered. The

:09:40.:09:42.

questions were left unanswered. The first was to do with Mid

:09:42.:09:43.

first was to do with Mid first was to do with Mid

:09:43.:09:44.

Staffordshire and the second was to Staffordshire and the second was to

:09:44.:09:45.

Staffordshire and the second was to Staffordshire and the second was to

:09:45.:09:46.

do with the mortality data, which he do with the mortality data, which he

:09:46.:09:48.

do with the mortality data, which he do with the mortality data, which he

:09:48.:09:49.

claimed he did not know about until claimed he did not know about until

:09:49.:09:50.

claimed he did not know about until 2009. Mortality data was sent to

:09:50.:09:51.

2009. Mortality data was sent to 2009. Mortality data was sent to

:09:51.:09:51.

each hospital trust every month when each hospital trust every month when

:09:51.:09:53.

each hospital trust every month when each hospital trust every month when

:09:53.:09:55.

things were getting a bit in excess. things were getting a bit in excess.

:09:55.:09:56.

things were getting a bit in excess. things were getting a bit in excess.

:09:56.:09:58.

There is a question of his note There is a question of his note

:09:58.:09:59.

There is a question of his note dismissing the concerns of patient

:09:59.:10:00.

dismissing the concerns of patient dismissing the concerns of patient

:10:00.:10:01.

dismissing the concerns of patient groups who came to see him. And then

:10:01.:10:02.

groups who came to see him. And then groups who came to see him. And then

:10:02.:10:04.

groups who came to see him. And then across the whole of the NHS, there

:10:04.:10:06.

across the whole of the NHS, there across the whole of the NHS, there

:10:06.:10:08.

were three reports published in 2008 were three reports published in 2008

:10:08.:10:09.

which were extremely damning, which were extremely damning,

:10:09.:10:12.

which were extremely damning, which were extremely damning,

:10:12.:10:13.

talking about a culture of fear and talking about a culture of fear and

:10:13.:10:13.

talking about a culture of fear and mistrust in the Department of

:10:13.:10:14.

mistrust in the Department of mistrust in the Department of

:10:14.:10:16.

Health, a lack of trust between Health, a lack of trust between

:10:16.:10:19.

managers and woefully inadequate managers and woefully inadequate

:10:19.:10:20.

managers and woefully inadequate quality assessment systems. He says

:10:20.:10:21.

quality assessment systems. He says quality assessment systems. He says

:10:21.:10:22.

quality assessment systems. He says he did not know about those reports

:10:22.:10:23.

he did not know about those reports he did not know about those reports

:10:23.:10:24.

he did not know about those reports in 2008 and was not responsible for

:10:24.:10:28.

in 2008 and was not responsible for in 2008 and was not responsible for

:10:28.:10:29.

their suppression. The question is, their suppression. The question is,

:10:29.:10:30.

their suppression. The question is, did he suppress those reports

:10:30.:10:32.

did he suppress those reports did he suppress those reports

:10:32.:10:33.

personally? Is he being dishonest? personally? Is he being dishonest?

:10:33.:10:35.

personally? Is he being dishonest? personally? Is he being dishonest?

:10:35.:10:36.

If he did not, who did suppress If he did not, who did suppress

:10:36.:10:37.

If he did not, who did suppress those reports? In the time between

:10:37.:10:38.

those reports? In the time between those reports? In the time between

:10:38.:10:39.

those reports being published and those reports being published and

:10:39.:10:42.

those reports being published and those reports being published and

:10:42.:10:42.

2010, when there were dug up by a 2010, when there were dug up by a

:10:42.:10:43.

2010, when there were dug up by a Freedom of Information Act request

:10:43.:10:44.

Freedom of Information Act request Freedom of Information Act request

:10:44.:10:44.

because even the health select because even the health select

:10:44.:10:46.

because even the health select committee did not have access to

:10:46.:10:47.

committee did not have access to committee did not have access to

:10:47.:10:48.

committee did not have access to them, if you look at the mortality

:10:48.:10:49.

them, if you look at the mortality them, if you look at the mortality

:10:49.:10:50.

rates across the hospitals we are rates across the hospitals we are

:10:51.:10:52.

rates across the hospitals we are worried about, there were 2800

:10:52.:10:53.

worried about, there were 2800 worried about, there were 2800

:10:54.:10:54.

excess deaths. If those reports had excess deaths. If those reports had

:10:54.:10:55.

excess deaths. If those reports had been acted upon, how many lives

:10:55.:10:57.

been acted upon, how many lives been acted upon, how many lives

:10:57.:10:58.

been acted upon, how many lives could have been saved? It was a

:10:58.:11:00.

could have been saved? It was a could have been saved? It was a

:11:00.:11:02.

serious issue which he failed to serious issue which he failed to

:11:02.:11:03.

serious issue which he failed to serious issue which he failed to

:11:03.:11:04.

cancer. This was a man who oversaw cancer. This was a man who oversaw

:11:04.:11:05.

cancer. This was a man who oversaw cancer. This was a man who oversaw

:11:06.:11:07.

all of those things. We do not say all of those things. We do not say

:11:07.:11:08.

all of those things. We do not say he was directly responsible, but he

:11:08.:11:09.

he was directly responsible, but he he was directly responsible, but he

:11:09.:11:11.

he was directly responsible, but he oversaw a regime firstly as chair of

:11:11.:11:12.

oversaw a regime firstly as chair of oversaw a regime firstly as chair of

:11:12.:11:13.

the regional Health Authority, when the regional Health Authority, when

:11:13.:11:13.

the regional Health Authority, when there were hundreds of unnecessary

:11:13.:11:16.

there were hundreds of unnecessary there were hundreds of unnecessary

:11:16.:11:17.

deaths, and then, as Charlotte deaths, and then, as Charlotte

:11:17.:11:19.

deaths, and then, as Charlotte Leslie has outlined, three other

:11:19.:11:21.

Leslie has outlined, three other Leslie has outlined, three other

:11:21.:11:22.

reports about a culture throughout reports about a culture throughout

:11:22.:11:22.

reports about a culture throughout the NHS while he was Chief

:11:22.:11:24.

the NHS while he was Chief the NHS while he was Chief

:11:24.:11:25.

the NHS while he was Chief Executive. How can he stay? We have

:11:25.:11:26.

Executive. How can he stay? We have Executive. How can he stay? We have

:11:26.:11:27.

to tread with caution here. Firstly, to tread with caution here. Firstly,

:11:27.:11:29.

to tread with caution here. Firstly, to tread with caution here. Firstly,

:11:30.:11:32.

David Nicholson is doing a good job David Nicholson is doing a good job

:11:32.:11:33.

David Nicholson is doing a good job at holding the NHS together under

:11:33.:11:34.

at holding the NHS together under difficult circumstances.

:11:35.:11:36.

difficult circumstances. difficult circumstances.

:11:36.:11:38.

according to these three reports. according to these three reports.

:11:38.:11:42.

according to these three reports. are facing a very big reorganising

:11:42.:11:43.

are facing a very big reorganising are facing a very big reorganising

:11:43.:11:44.

are facing a very big reorganising -- reorganisation of the NHS, and we

:11:44.:11:46.

-- reorganisation of the NHS, and we -- reorganisation of the NHS, and we

:11:46.:11:47.

need someone like David Nicholson to need someone like David Nicholson to

:11:47.:11:48.

need someone like David Nicholson to ensure that the National Health

:11:48.:11:49.

ensure that the National Health ensure that the National Health

:11:49.:11:50.

Service is kept together. I also Service is kept together. I also

:11:50.:11:50.

Service is kept together. I also take exception to the fact that

:11:51.:11:52.

take exception to the fact that take exception to the fact that

:11:52.:11:55.

Charlotte says these three reports Charlotte says these three reports

:11:55.:12:01.

were suppressed. Actually, those were suppressed. Actually, those

:12:01.:12:01.

were suppressed. Actually, those three reports fed into the quality

:12:01.:12:07.

three reports fed into the quality three reports fed into the quality

:12:07.:12:07.

review that was led and actually, review that was led and actually,

:12:08.:12:10.

review that was led and actually, review that was led and actually,

:12:10.:12:12.

they were acted on. How were they they were acted on. How were they

:12:12.:12:15.

they were acted on. How were they they were acted on. How were they

:12:15.:12:15.

acted on? They were acted on because acted on? They were acted on because

:12:15.:12:18.

acted on? They were acted on because acted on? They were acted on because

:12:18.:12:18.

the review into the quality of the the review into the quality of the

:12:18.:12:20.

the review into the quality of the NHS, which has driven up standards

:12:20.:12:21.

NHS, which has driven up standards NHS, which has driven up standards

:12:21.:12:28.

NHS, which has driven up standards of quality across the NHS, as even

:12:28.:12:29.

of quality across the NHS, as even of quality across the NHS, as even

:12:29.:12:30.

David Cameron at the knowledge, it David Cameron at the knowledge, it

:12:30.:12:32.

David Cameron at the knowledge, it David Cameron at the knowledge, it

:12:32.:12:33.

is unfair to say these reports were is unfair to say these reports were

:12:33.:12:34.

is unfair to say these reports were suppressed. If you read the final

:12:34.:12:37.

suppressed. If you read the final suppressed. If you read the final

:12:37.:12:38.

government report, it bears no government report, it bears no

:12:38.:12:41.

government report, it bears no relation to what these reports

:12:41.:12:41.

relation to what these reports relation to what these reports

:12:41.:12:42.

relation to what these reports stated was a dire situation in the

:12:42.:12:44.

stated was a dire situation in the stated was a dire situation in the

:12:44.:12:45.

stated was a dire situation in the NHS. Alan Johnson says the NHS is in

:12:45.:12:46.

NHS. Alan Johnson says the NHS is in NHS. Alan Johnson says the NHS is in

:12:46.:12:49.

NHS. Alan Johnson says the NHS is in a good state of health. That was not

:12:49.:12:55.

a good state of health. That was not an appropriate reaction. Secondly,

:12:55.:12:55.

an appropriate reaction. Secondly, an appropriate reaction. Secondly,

:12:55.:12:56.

the things these reports raise are the things these reports raise are

:12:56.:12:59.

the things these reports raise are almost identical to what Francis

:12:59.:13:00.

almost identical to what Francis almost identical to what Francis

:13:00.:13:02.

raised five years later. If they raised five years later. If they

:13:02.:13:05.

raised five years later. If they attempted to be acted upon, the

:13:05.:13:06.

attempted to be acted upon, the attempted to be acted upon, the

:13:06.:13:10.

negligence of not acting upon those negligence of not acting upon those

:13:10.:13:10.

negligence of not acting upon those things is serious. They were not

:13:10.:13:12.

things is serious. They were not things is serious. They were not

:13:12.:13:13.

things is serious. They were not suppressed, but they may -- the idea

:13:13.:13:15.

suppressed, but they may -- the idea suppressed, but they may -- the idea

:13:15.:13:16.

suppressed, but they may -- the idea that they do report was acted upon

:13:16.:13:17.

that they do report was acted upon that they do report was acted upon

:13:17.:13:18.

that they do report was acted upon is not true. It is not easy for

:13:18.:13:22.

is not true. It is not easy for is not true. It is not easy for

:13:22.:13:23.

David Nicholson now. With all this David Nicholson now. With all this

:13:23.:13:23.

David Nicholson now. With all this information coming out, looking at

:13:23.:13:24.

information coming out, looking at information coming out, looking at

:13:24.:13:27.

information coming out, looking at it from a layman's point of view, I

:13:27.:13:28.

it from a layman's point of view, I it from a layman's point of view, I

:13:28.:13:29.

it from a layman's point of view, I know it is difficult if you are a

:13:29.:13:29.

know it is difficult if you are a know it is difficult if you are a

:13:29.:13:31.

know it is difficult if you are a senior manager in the NHS, but it

:13:31.:13:31.

senior manager in the NHS, but it senior manager in the NHS, but it

:13:31.:13:33.

senior manager in the NHS, but it seems it is difficult for him to

:13:34.:13:34.

seems it is difficult for him to seems it is difficult for him to

:13:34.:13:35.

seems it is difficult for him to day. It is difficult for him to

:13:35.:13:36.

day. It is difficult for him to day. It is difficult for him to

:13:36.:13:37.

day. It is difficult for him to stay, but it would be far worse if

:13:37.:13:41.

stay, but it would be far worse if stay, but it would be far worse if

:13:41.:13:42.

he went. There are huge difficulties he went. There are huge difficulties

:13:42.:13:49.

he went. There are huge difficulties in the NHS. Charlotte is arguing

:13:49.:13:51.

in the NHS. Charlotte is arguing in the NHS. Charlotte is arguing

:13:51.:13:52.

that the reports were suppressed and that the reports were suppressed and

:13:53.:13:53.

that the reports were suppressed and that the reports were suppressed and

:13:53.:13:54.

were part of the review. To some were part of the review. To some

:13:54.:13:55.

were part of the review. To some extent, you are both white, which

:13:55.:13:56.

extent, you are both white, which extent, you are both white, which

:13:56.:13:58.

makes it even more difficult. But makes it even more difficult. But

:13:58.:14:01.

makes it even more difficult. But data about access deaths and

:14:01.:14:02.

data about access deaths and hospital statistics, that material

:14:02.:14:03.

hospital statistics, that material hospital statistics, that material

:14:03.:14:04.

hospital statistics, that material has been around for 15 years and

:14:04.:14:07.

has been around for 15 years and has been around for 15 years and

:14:07.:14:08.

has been around for 15 years and more. And the system has not been

:14:08.:14:09.

more. And the system has not been more. And the system has not been

:14:09.:14:10.

more. And the system has not been good at dealing with it. At various

:14:10.:14:11.

good at dealing with it. At various good at dealing with it. At various

:14:11.:14:13.

good at dealing with it. At various times, people in the NHS have wanted

:14:13.:14:14.

times, people in the NHS have wanted times, people in the NHS have wanted

:14:14.:14:15.

times, people in the NHS have wanted to bury the bad news. We know that

:14:15.:14:17.

to bury the bad news. We know that to bury the bad news. We know that

:14:17.:14:18.

to bury the bad news. We know that to be the case. I was Chief

:14:18.:14:19.

to be the case. I was Chief to be the case. I was Chief

:14:19.:14:19.

Executive of the King's fund, and Executive of the King's fund, and

:14:19.:14:21.

Executive of the King's fund, and Executive of the King's fund, and

:14:21.:14:22.

this goes back to that. But does this goes back to that. But does

:14:22.:14:22.

this goes back to that. But does this goes back to that. But does

:14:23.:14:23.

someone have to pay for the fact someone have to pay for the fact

:14:23.:14:24.

someone have to pay for the fact someone have to pay for the fact

:14:24.:14:25.

that it has now come out in the that it has now come out in the

:14:25.:14:28.

that it has now come out in the Francis report that that target and

:14:28.:14:29.

Francis report that that target and Francis report that that target and

:14:29.:14:30.

-- target led culture contributed to -- target led culture contributed to

:14:30.:14:31.

-- target led culture contributed to unnecessary deaths, and he was in

:14:31.:14:33.

unnecessary deaths, and he was in unnecessary deaths, and he was in

:14:33.:14:34.

charge of that culture? You could charge of that culture? You could

:14:34.:14:35.

charge of that culture? You could charge of that culture? You could

:14:35.:14:36.

argue that, but then you could say argue that, but then you could say

:14:36.:14:39.

argue that, but then you could say argue that, but then you could say

:14:39.:14:40.

he was keener -- who was keen on he was keener -- who was keen on

:14:40.:14:41.

he was keener -- who was keen on pushing for that target led

:14:41.:14:42.

pushing for that target led pushing for that target led

:14:43.:14:43.

culture? It was the secretary of culture? It was the secretary of

:14:43.:14:44.

culture? It was the secretary of culture? It was the secretary of

:14:44.:14:46.

state. If you wanted to go down that state. If you wanted to go down that

:14:46.:14:47.

state. If you wanted to go down that path, you could argue that

:14:47.:14:48.

path, you could argue that path, you could argue that

:14:48.:14:56.

politicians have to take the hit. politicians have to take the hit.

:14:56.:14:58.

politicians have to take the hit. Isn't that why they are supporting

:14:58.:15:00.

Isn't that why they are supporting Isn't that why they are supporting

:15:00.:15:01.

Isn't that why they are supporting him? Because they are bound up in

:15:01.:15:01.

him? Because they are bound up in him? Because they are bound up in

:15:01.:15:05.

him? Because they are bound up in what has gone wrong with the NHS.

:15:05.:15:07.

what has gone wrong with the NHS. what has gone wrong with the NHS.

:15:07.:15:08.

what has gone wrong with the NHS. need to recognise that the NHS in

:15:08.:15:08.

need to recognise that the NHS in need to recognise that the NHS in

:15:08.:15:12.

need to recognise that the NHS in 1997 was very different to the NHS

:15:12.:15:13.

1997 was very different to the NHS 1997 was very different to the NHS

:15:13.:15:15.

1997 was very different to the NHS in 2010, and there was not only

:15:15.:15:17.

in 2010, and there was not only in 2010, and there was not only

:15:17.:15:18.

record levels of investment, extra record levels of investment, extra

:15:18.:15:20.

nurses and doctors, new nurses and doctors, new

:15:20.:15:24.

nurses and doctors, new hospitals... But it didn't prevent

:15:24.:15:27.

hospitals... But it didn't prevent these unnecessary deaths. Patient

:15:27.:15:28.

these unnecessary deaths. Patient these unnecessary deaths. Patient

:15:28.:15:31.

satisfaction was at the highest satisfaction was at the highest

:15:31.:15:31.

satisfaction was at the highest levels and the NHS was performing

:15:31.:15:35.

levels and the NHS was performing levels and the NHS was performing

:15:35.:15:36.

well. There are examples, and Mid well. There are examples, and Mid

:15:36.:15:36.

well. There are examples, and Mid Staffordshire is the one uppermost

:15:36.:15:37.

Staffordshire is the one uppermost Staffordshire is the one uppermost

:15:37.:15:42.

Staffordshire is the one uppermost in our minds at the moment...

:15:42.:15:44.

in our minds at the moment... in our minds at the moment...

:15:44.:15:45.

in our minds at the moment... shouldn't he go? Are we truly saying

:15:45.:15:46.

shouldn't he go? Are we truly saying shouldn't he go? Are we truly saying

:15:46.:15:47.

there isn't anybody else who could there isn't anybody else who could

:15:47.:15:52.

there isn't anybody else who could there isn't anybody else who could

:15:52.:15:53.

do this job? The manager code of do this job? The manager code of

:15:53.:15:55.

do this job? The manager code of conduct says I will put patient

:15:55.:15:56.

conduct says I will put patient safety first, take responsibility

:15:56.:15:57.

safety first, take responsibility safety first, take responsibility

:15:57.:15:59.

safety first, take responsibility for my own work and those underneath

:15:59.:16:02.

for my own work and those underneath for my own work and those underneath

:16:02.:16:03.

for my own work and those underneath me. In the case of Mr Nicholson and

:16:03.:16:05.

me. In the case of Mr Nicholson and me. In the case of Mr Nicholson and

:16:05.:16:06.

others, this code of conduct has others, this code of conduct has

:16:06.:16:08.

others, this code of conduct has others, this code of conduct has

:16:08.:16:10.

been broken. If you want to see been broken. If you want to see

:16:10.:16:12.

been broken. If you want to see accountability, it must mean taking

:16:12.:16:14.

accountability, it must mean taking responsibility. For the one-year

:16:14.:16:19.

responsibility. For the one-year responsibility. For the one-year

:16:19.:16:20.

responsibility. For the one-year David Nicholson was in charge of the

:16:20.:16:22.

David Nicholson was in charge of the David Nicholson was in charge of the

:16:22.:16:23.

strategic Health Authority, he was strategic Health Authority, he was

:16:23.:16:24.

overseeing a massive reorganisation overseeing a massive reorganisation

:16:24.:16:25.

overseeing a massive reorganisation overseeing a massive reorganisation

:16:25.:16:28.

of the NHS in the West Midlands, of the NHS in the West Midlands,

:16:28.:16:30.

combining three smaller strategic combining three smaller strategic

:16:30.:16:32.

combining three smaller strategic Health Authority is into one, a

:16:32.:16:35.

large-scale ambulance large-scale ambulance

:16:35.:16:37.

reorganisation, and reducing the reorganisation, and reducing the

:16:37.:16:38.

reorganisation, and reducing the number of primary care trusts by

:16:38.:16:42.

number of primary care trusts by number of primary care trusts by

:16:42.:16:44.

number of primary care trusts by half across the region. Some of that

:16:44.:16:45.

half across the region. Some of that reorganisation was almost certainly

:16:45.:16:48.

reorganisation was almost certainly reorganisation was almost certainly

:16:48.:16:49.

unnecessary and politicians need to unnecessary and politicians need to

:16:49.:16:52.

unnecessary and politicians need to take responsibility for the constant

:16:52.:16:53.

take responsibility for the constant take responsibility for the constant

:16:53.:16:54.

moving of deckchairs. Do you accept moving of deckchairs. Do you accept

:16:54.:16:55.

moving of deckchairs. Do you accept moving of deckchairs. Do you accept

:16:55.:16:58.

David Nicholson has said the NHS is David Nicholson has said the NHS is

:16:58.:16:59.

David Nicholson has said the NHS is under massive risk as the

:16:59.:17:00.

under massive risk as the restructuring takes place, having

:17:00.:17:01.

restructuring takes place, having restructuring takes place, having

:17:01.:17:03.

restructuring takes place, having laid out all of your claims against

:17:03.:17:04.

laid out all of your claims against laid out all of your claims against

:17:04.:17:06.

laid out all of your claims against him he is now having to oversee a

:17:06.:17:10.

him he is now having to oversee a him he is now having to oversee a

:17:10.:17:11.

reorganisation. One of the most reorganisation. One of the most

:17:11.:17:12.

important things in any important things in any

:17:12.:17:13.

important things in any reorganisation is that the man at

:17:13.:17:14.

reorganisation is that the man at reorganisation is that the man at

:17:14.:17:16.

reorganisation is that the man at the top has to have confidence in

:17:16.:17:20.

the top has to have confidence in the top has to have confidence in

:17:20.:17:23.

doctors. The burden brought in on doctors. The burden brought in on

:17:23.:17:24.

them was jeopardising patient them was jeopardising patient

:17:24.:17:26.

them was jeopardising patient them was jeopardising patient

:17:26.:17:33.

safety. How can a man who has safety. How can a man who has

:17:33.:17:36.

overseen this move without overseen this move without

:17:36.:17:37.

overseen this move without accountability? He says in the case

:17:37.:17:40.

accountability? He says in the case accountability? He says in the case

:17:40.:17:43.

of the Lincolnshire NHS trust that of the Lincolnshire NHS trust that

:17:43.:17:45.

of the Lincolnshire NHS trust that he didn't know. In big organisations

:17:45.:17:47.

he didn't know. In big organisations he didn't know. In big organisations

:17:47.:17:49.

like the NHS, you cannot know like the NHS, you cannot know

:17:49.:17:50.

like the NHS, you cannot know like the NHS, you cannot know

:17:50.:17:52.

everything, can you? If you are paid everything, can you? If you are paid

:17:52.:17:52.

everything, can you? If you are paid everything, can you? If you are paid

:17:52.:17:53.

everything, can you? If you are paid a large salary to be at the top of

:17:53.:17:55.

a large salary to be at the top of a large salary to be at the top of

:17:55.:17:56.

a large salary to be at the top of the tree, that is because you take

:17:56.:17:57.

the tree, that is because you take the tree, that is because you take

:17:57.:18:00.

responsibility for your own work and responsibility for your own work and

:18:00.:18:00.

responsibility for your own work and that work from people underneath

:18:00.:18:04.

that work from people underneath that work from people underneath

:18:04.:18:08.

that work from people underneath you. We owe it to patients and

:18:08.:18:10.

you. We owe it to patients and you. We owe it to patients and

:18:10.:18:11.

doctors to change that culture. We doctors to change that culture. We

:18:11.:18:13.

doctors to change that culture. We doctors to change that culture. We

:18:13.:18:13.

have an opportunity and it would be have an opportunity and it would be

:18:13.:18:15.

have an opportunity and it would be have an opportunity and it would be

:18:15.:18:18.

remiss not to do it. The danger is remiss not to do it. The danger is

:18:18.:18:19.

remiss not to do it. The danger is remiss not to do it. The danger is

:18:19.:18:23.

that embarking on a massive top down that embarking on a massive top down

:18:23.:18:24.

reorganisation, something you said reorganisation, something you said

:18:24.:18:25.

reorganisation, something you said would not happen at the next

:18:25.:18:27.

would not happen at the next would not happen at the next

:18:27.:18:31.

election, making sure we learned election, making sure we learned

:18:31.:18:33.

election, making sure we learned election, making sure we learned

:18:33.:18:33.

those lessons, we miss all of that those lessons, we miss all of that

:18:33.:18:36.

those lessons, we miss all of that those lessons, we miss all of that

:18:36.:18:37.

and we go through the procedure is and we go through the procedure is

:18:37.:18:38.

and we go through the procedure is again of reorganising and we don't

:18:38.:18:41.

again of reorganising and we don't again of reorganising and we don't

:18:41.:18:42.

tackle the underlying problems. tackle the underlying problems.

:18:42.:18:43.

tackle the underlying problems. we were serious about reorganising,

:18:43.:18:47.

we were serious about reorganising, we were serious about reorganising,

:18:47.:18:48.

we were serious about reorganising, to get the patients' voice at the

:18:48.:18:49.

to get the patients' voice at the to get the patients' voice at the

:18:49.:18:50.

to get the patients' voice at the heart of it, this is not how you

:18:50.:18:51.

heart of it, this is not how you heart of it, this is not how you

:18:51.:18:52.

heart of it, this is not how you would do it and you would have to

:18:52.:18:55.

would do it and you would have to would do it and you would have to

:18:55.:18:57.

put patients more at the forefront. put patients more at the forefront.

:18:57.:18:59.

put patients more at the forefront. put patients more at the forefront.

:18:59.:19:02.

No one wants to be taking that on. No one wants to be taking that on.

:19:02.:19:02.

No one wants to be taking that on. Even David Nicholson has admitted

:19:02.:19:04.

Even David Nicholson has admitted Even David Nicholson has admitted

:19:04.:19:05.

Even David Nicholson has admitted patients were not at the centre of

:19:05.:19:07.

patients were not at the centre of patients were not at the centre of

:19:07.:19:08.

patients were not at the centre of the NHS. We have learnt that the

:19:08.:19:12.

the NHS. We have learnt that the central bureaucratic organisation

:19:12.:19:13.

central bureaucratic organisation central bureaucratic organisation

:19:13.:19:14.

central bureaucratic organisation does not work for the NHS, so who

:19:14.:19:15.

does not work for the NHS, so who does not work for the NHS, so who

:19:15.:19:17.

does not work for the NHS, so who better to put in charge of the

:19:17.:19:18.

better to put in charge of the commissioning than the commissions

:19:18.:19:24.

commissioning than the commissions commissioning than the commissions

:19:24.:19:25.

commissioning than the commissions themselves? That is why this is so

:19:25.:19:25.

themselves? That is why this is so themselves? That is why this is so

:19:25.:19:26.

timely. Many clinicians were trying timely. Many clinicians were trying

:19:26.:19:29.

timely. Many clinicians were trying timely. Many clinicians were trying

:19:29.:19:29.

to speak out. They are the ones that to speak out. They are the ones that

:19:29.:19:35.

to speak out. They are the ones that should be driving this. Thank you.

:19:35.:19:37.

should be driving this. Thank you. should be driving this. Thank you.

:19:37.:19:38.

should be driving this. Thank you. Do you have a short attention span?

:19:38.:19:41.

Do you have a short attention span? Do you have a short attention span?

:19:41.:19:42.

Have you ever considered working in Have you ever considered working in

:19:42.:19:43.

Have you ever considered working in business? UK plc is plagued by

:19:43.:19:45.

business? UK plc is plagued by business? UK plc is plagued by

:19:45.:19:46.

business? UK plc is plagued by short-term thinking and it is a big

:19:46.:19:47.

short-term thinking and it is a big short-term thinking and it is a big

:19:47.:19:48.

short-term thinking and it is a big problem, so says a report by the

:19:48.:19:51.

problem, so says a report by the problem, so says a report by the

:19:51.:19:52.

businessmen Sir George Cox. He says businessmen Sir George Cox. He says

:19:52.:20:02.
:20:02.:20:13.

businessmen Sir George Cox. He says he has a solution. He wants lower

:20:13.:20:16.

he has a solution. He wants lower capital gains tax for long-term

:20:16.:20:17.

capital gains tax for long-term capital gains tax for long-term

:20:17.:20:19.

investors. He wants a longer term investors. He wants a longer term

:20:19.:20:26.

investors. He wants a longer term perspective or instruct structure --

:20:26.:20:27.

perspective or instruct structure -- for infrastructure and wants

:20:27.:20:29.

for infrastructure and wants for infrastructure and wants

:20:29.:20:30.

executive pay to be tied to executive pay to be tied to

:20:30.:20:31.

long-term performance. From the long-term performance. From the

:20:31.:20:33.

long-term performance. From the other side, the free enterprise

:20:34.:20:35.

other side, the free enterprise other side, the free enterprise

:20:35.:20:35.

other side, the free enterprise group of Tory MPs have called for

:20:35.:20:37.

group of Tory MPs have called for group of Tory MPs have called for

:20:37.:20:38.

group of Tory MPs have called for radical tax cuts now to deliver a

:20:38.:20:39.

radical tax cuts now to deliver a radical tax cuts now to deliver a

:20:39.:20:42.

quick boost to the economy. Joining quick boost to the economy. Joining

:20:42.:20:43.

quick boost to the economy. Joining me now, Labour's Business Minister

:20:43.:20:48.

me now, Labour's Business Minister me now, Labour's Business Minister

:20:48.:20:49.

me now, Labour's Business Minister Iain Wright and MP Jesse Norman. How

:20:50.:20:51.

Iain Wright and MP Jesse Norman. How Iain Wright and MP Jesse Norman. How

:20:51.:20:51.

are those suggestions going to are those suggestions going to

:20:51.:20:54.

are those suggestions going to kickstart the economy now? It is

:20:54.:20:58.

kickstart the economy now? It is kickstart the economy now? It is

:20:58.:20:59.

important that looking at a important that looking at a

:20:59.:21:00.

important that looking at a short-term boost, but as Sir George

:21:01.:21:01.

short-term boost, but as Sir George short-term boost, but as Sir George

:21:01.:21:02.

short-term boost, but as Sir George Cox says in his report, for too long

:21:02.:21:03.

Cox says in his report, for too long Cox says in his report, for too long

:21:03.:21:04.

Cox says in his report, for too long we have had an emphasis on getting a

:21:04.:21:14.
:21:14.:21:24.

we have had an emphasis on getting a we have had an emphasis on getting a

:21:24.:21:25.

we have had an emphasis on getting a quick buck. What do you say to

:21:25.:21:29.

quick buck. What do you say to quick buck. What do you say to

:21:29.:21:30.

that? That long-term goals would that? That long-term goals would

:21:30.:21:34.

that? That long-term goals would reap greater dividends? It is

:21:34.:21:35.

reap greater dividends? It is reap greater dividends? It is

:21:35.:21:36.

interesting how the government focus interesting how the government focus

:21:36.:21:44.

interesting how the government focus interesting how the government focus

:21:44.:21:45.

has been on the long-term. The real has been on the long-term. The real

:21:45.:21:47.

has been on the long-term. The real has been on the long-term. The real

:21:47.:21:48.

has been on the long-term. The real question is how do we get rid of the

:21:48.:21:49.

question is how do we get rid of the embedded short-term culture in

:21:49.:21:51.

embedded short-term culture in embedded short-term culture in

:21:51.:21:52.

business and the government in the business and the government in the

:21:52.:21:52.

business and the government in the instruments of government? I think

:21:52.:21:55.

instruments of government? I think instruments of government? I think

:21:55.:21:58.

this is a helpful and interesting this is a helpful and interesting

:21:58.:21:58.

this is a helpful and interesting report in terms of contributing.

:21:58.:22:00.

report in terms of contributing. report in terms of contributing.

:22:00.:22:01.

report in terms of contributing. come back to the question of growth

:22:01.:22:02.

come back to the question of growth come back to the question of growth

:22:02.:22:04.

come back to the question of growth now. Do you agree with some of the

:22:04.:22:06.

now. Do you agree with some of the now. Do you agree with some of the

:22:06.:22:06.

suggestions that have been put suggestions that have been put

:22:07.:22:08.

suggestions that have been put forward by Jesse Norman's group,

:22:08.:22:09.

forward by Jesse Norman's group, forward by Jesse Norman's group,

:22:09.:22:10.

forward by Jesse Norman's group, that we need to have some radical

:22:10.:22:13.

that we need to have some radical that we need to have some radical

:22:13.:22:15.

tax cuts or some series investment tax cuts or some series investment

:22:15.:22:16.

tax cuts or some series investment bringing down corporation tax for

:22:16.:22:19.

bringing down corporation tax for bringing down corporation tax for

:22:19.:22:20.

example? There is something to be example? There is something to be

:22:20.:22:22.

example? There is something to be example? There is something to be

:22:22.:22:23.

said about that. We have called for said about that. We have called for

:22:23.:22:27.

said about that. We have called for said about that. We have called for

:22:27.:22:28.

targeted tax cuts, and I don't think targeted tax cuts, and I don't think

:22:28.:22:30.

targeted tax cuts, and I don't think targeted tax cuts, and I don't think

:22:30.:22:31.

the tax cuts for millionaires at the the tax cuts for millionaires at the

:22:31.:22:33.

the tax cuts for millionaires at the expense of the wider population

:22:33.:22:35.

expense of the wider population matters. Investment in

:22:35.:22:38.

matters. Investment in infrastructure is important.

:22:38.:22:39.

infrastructure is important. infrastructure is important.

:22:39.:22:40.

Long-term, where will we make our Long-term, where will we make our

:22:40.:22:44.

Long-term, where will we make our Long-term, where will we make our

:22:45.:22:46.

money in the next 30 years? In the money in the next 30 years? In the

:22:46.:22:47.

money in the next 30 years? In the money in the next 30 years? In the

:22:47.:22:48.

money in the next 30 years? In the report, and I take my hat off to Sir

:22:48.:22:49.

report, and I take my hat off to Sir report, and I take my hat off to Sir

:22:50.:22:50.

report, and I take my hat off to Sir George Cox for this, there is an

:22:50.:22:52.

George Cox for this, there is an interesting parallel to the

:22:52.:22:54.

interesting parallel to the interesting parallel to the

:22:54.:22:56.

Olympics. Britain was doing very Olympics. Britain was doing very

:22:56.:22:57.

badly, then essentially somebody badly, then essentially somebody

:22:57.:22:59.

badly, then essentially somebody said to take this seriously and

:22:59.:23:01.

said to take this seriously and said to take this seriously and

:23:01.:23:02.

invest, and be brutal in not invest, and be brutal in not

:23:02.:23:03.

invest, and be brutal in not invest, and be brutal in not

:23:03.:23:07.

investing in areas where we are not investing in areas where we are not

:23:07.:23:08.

investing in areas where we are not competitively strong. For us, it is

:23:08.:23:11.

competitively strong. For us, it is areas like pharmaceuticals, various

:23:11.:23:15.

areas like pharmaceuticals, various areas like pharmaceuticals, various

:23:15.:23:18.

areas like pharmaceuticals, various areas of technology, and it is a

:23:18.:23:19.

areas of technology, and it is a long-term investment strategy

:23:19.:23:22.

long-term investment strategy long-term investment strategy

:23:22.:23:27.

focusing on Friday Value added focusing on Friday Value added

:23:27.:23:28.

focusing on Friday Value added technologies. Why would it be a

:23:28.:23:30.

technologies. Why would it be a technologies. Why would it be a

:23:30.:23:32.

success? Just because it is success? Just because it is

:23:32.:23:32.

independent of government control. independent of government control.

:23:33.:23:35.

independent of government control. independent of government control.

:23:35.:23:36.

We have the OBE are and one could We have the OBE are and one could

:23:36.:23:37.

We have the OBE are and one could We have the OBE are and one could

:23:37.:23:38.

argue it hasn't got one of its argue it hasn't got one of its

:23:38.:23:42.

argue it hasn't got one of its forecasts right. It would still be

:23:42.:23:43.

forecasts right. It would still be forecasts right. It would still be

:23:43.:23:49.

central planning, why would that central planning, why would that

:23:49.:23:50.

central planning, why would that work? Whether it is aviation

:23:50.:23:51.

work? Whether it is aviation work? Whether it is aviation

:23:51.:23:54.

strategy, energy policy, at the strategy, energy policy, at the

:23:54.:23:54.

strategy, energy policy, at the moment we haven't got that.

:23:54.:23:58.

moment we haven't got that. can't politicians make decisions

:23:58.:24:01.

can't politicians make decisions can't politicians make decisions

:24:01.:24:02.

about infrastructure? I think they about infrastructure? I think they

:24:02.:24:02.

about infrastructure? I think they can but it takes cross-party

:24:02.:24:06.

can but it takes cross-party can but it takes cross-party

:24:06.:24:12.

consensus. When you have too much consensus. When you have too much

:24:12.:24:13.

consensus. When you have too much alienation, people want it to be

:24:13.:24:23.
:24:23.:24:24.

alienation, people want it to be democratically accountable. What is

:24:24.:24:25.

democratically accountable. What is interesting in a re-energise

:24:25.:24:26.

interesting in a re-energise treasury group sitting there,

:24:26.:24:30.

treasury group sitting there, treasury group sitting there,

:24:30.:24:32.

thinking how can we raise money, thinking how can we raise money,

:24:32.:24:33.

thinking how can we raise money, with the understanding that this

:24:33.:24:34.

with the understanding that this with the understanding that this

:24:34.:24:35.

parliament will not see anything parliament will not see anything

:24:35.:24:36.

parliament will not see anything like the benefit of the Olympics,

:24:36.:24:39.

like the benefit of the Olympics, like the benefit of the Olympics,

:24:39.:24:40.

like the benefit of the Olympics, and that is a long-term process.

:24:40.:24:41.

and that is a long-term process. and that is a long-term process.

:24:41.:24:45.

it time to stop ring fencing it time to stop ring fencing

:24:46.:24:46.

it time to stop ring fencing health, education, and foreign aid

:24:46.:24:48.

health, education, and foreign aid health, education, and foreign aid

:24:48.:24:50.

health, education, and foreign aid budgets, to try to use that money to

:24:50.:24:51.

budgets, to try to use that money to budgets, to try to use that money to

:24:51.:24:52.

kickstart the economy? The most kickstart the economy? The most

:24:52.:24:54.

kickstart the economy? The most kickstart the economy? The most

:24:55.:24:55.

striking part of this report is that striking part of this report is that

:24:55.:24:57.

striking part of this report is that striking part of this report is that

:24:57.:24:58.

for the best part of 40 years, for the best part of 40 years,

:24:58.:25:00.

for the best part of 40 years, politicians have been obsessed with

:25:00.:25:02.

politicians have been obsessed with politicians have been obsessed with

:25:02.:25:03.

politicians have been obsessed with how you divide the pie. How will you

:25:03.:25:04.

how you divide the pie. How will you how you divide the pie. How will you

:25:04.:25:07.

divide expenditure, whether it is divide expenditure, whether it is

:25:07.:25:09.

divide expenditure, whether it is defence over welfare. The question

:25:09.:25:10.

defence over welfare. The question defence over welfare. The question

:25:10.:25:11.

defence over welfare. The question is how we create the wealth to make

:25:11.:25:12.

is how we create the wealth to make is how we create the wealth to make

:25:12.:25:13.

is how we create the wealth to make the pie in the first place. Is it

:25:13.:25:16.

the pie in the first place. Is it the pie in the first place. Is it

:25:16.:25:18.

time to stop ring fencing those time to stop ring fencing those

:25:18.:25:19.

departments because others are departments because others are

:25:19.:25:20.

departments because others are squealing and saying you will not

:25:20.:25:21.

squealing and saying you will not squealing and saying you will not

:25:21.:25:22.

take more money from welfare, take more money from welfare,

:25:22.:25:25.

take more money from welfare, take more money from welfare,

:25:25.:25:26.

defence and business in order to be defence and business in order to be

:25:27.:25:31.

defence and business in order to be defence and business in order to be

:25:31.:25:32.

funding the others. You would say if funding the others. You would say if

:25:32.:25:33.

funding the others. You would say if funding the others. You would say if

:25:33.:25:33.

you want to take a long-term view, you want to take a long-term view,

:25:33.:25:37.

you want to take a long-term view, you want to take a long-term view,

:25:37.:25:38.

there is a lot of technology in there is a lot of technology in

:25:38.:25:39.

there is a lot of technology in there is a lot of technology in

:25:39.:25:40.

health care and you would say to the health care and you would say to the

:25:40.:25:41.

health care and you would say to the Department of Health you can keep

:25:41.:25:45.

Department of Health you can keep Department of Health you can keep

:25:45.:25:45.

Department of Health you can keep your budget but you are expected to

:25:45.:25:46.

your budget but you are expected to your budget but you are expected to

:25:47.:25:48.

your budget but you are expected to your budget but you are expected to

:25:49.:25:49.

use all of the data you can get to use all of the data you can get to

:25:49.:25:50.

use all of the data you can get to really innovate. I think you could

:25:50.:25:52.

really innovate. I think you could really innovate. I think you could

:25:52.:25:53.

really innovate. I think you could use it in a different way. Is Philip

:25:53.:25:55.

use it in a different way. Is Philip use it in a different way. Is Philip

:25:55.:25:55.

use it in a different way. Is Philip Hulme and wrong to say we should

:25:55.:25:56.

Hulme and wrong to say we should Hulme and wrong to say we should

:25:56.:26:02.

have more money from the welfare have more money from the welfare

:26:02.:26:06.

have more money from the welfare budget? He is perfectly entitled,

:26:06.:26:09.

budget? He is perfectly entitled, budget? He is perfectly entitled,

:26:10.:26:10.

budget? He is perfectly entitled, but I do think Baroness Neuberger is

:26:10.:26:13.

but I do think Baroness Neuberger is but I do think Baroness Neuberger is

:26:13.:26:14.

but I do think Baroness Neuberger is right. The NHS, this is the first

:26:14.:26:15.

right. The NHS, this is the first right. The NHS, this is the first

:26:15.:26:17.

right. The NHS, this is the first time in which a vast amount of data

:26:17.:26:19.

time in which a vast amount of data time in which a vast amount of data

:26:19.:26:21.

built over several decades is now built over several decades is now

:26:21.:26:24.

being used for pharmaceutical being used for pharmaceutical

:26:24.:26:29.

being used for pharmaceutical research. That is a very long-term

:26:29.:26:30.

research. That is a very long-term research. That is a very long-term

:26:30.:26:30.

investment that will yield benefits. investment that will yield benefits.

:26:30.:26:31.

investment that will yield benefits. How rattled our Tory backbenchers

:26:31.:26:33.

How rattled our Tory backbenchers How rattled our Tory backbenchers

:26:33.:26:34.

over the economy? Your colleague has over the economy? Your colleague has

:26:34.:26:36.

over the economy? Your colleague has over the economy? Your colleague has

:26:36.:26:37.

told George Osborne he has got to told George Osborne he has got to

:26:37.:26:38.

told George Osborne he has got to told George Osborne he has got to

:26:38.:26:39.

man all over the economy. I don't man all over the economy. I don't

:26:39.:26:42.

man all over the economy. I don't think you should take the prebudget

:26:42.:26:44.

think you should take the prebudget think you should take the prebudget

:26:44.:26:45.

jockeying as evidence for the state jockeying as evidence for the state

:26:45.:26:49.

jockeying as evidence for the state of the argument. Or the

:26:49.:26:51.

of the argument. Or the of the argument. Or the

:26:51.:26:53.

of the argument. Or the backbenchers? I think you have a lot

:26:53.:26:54.

backbenchers? I think you have a lot backbenchers? I think you have a lot

:26:54.:26:55.

backbenchers? I think you have a lot of people offering views and that is

:26:55.:26:56.

of people offering views and that is of people offering views and that is

:26:56.:26:59.

what any good politician would want. what any good politician would want.

:26:59.:27:01.

what any good politician would want. what any good politician would want.

:27:01.:27:02.

Is that what George Osborne wants to Is that what George Osborne wants to

:27:02.:27:03.

Is that what George Osborne wants to hear, that the backbenchers are

:27:03.:27:04.

hear, that the backbenchers are hear, that the backbenchers are

:27:04.:27:06.

hear, that the backbenchers are offering a range of ideas? He has

:27:06.:27:07.

offering a range of ideas? He has offering a range of ideas? He has

:27:07.:27:13.

said we want the best thinking, said we want the best thinking,

:27:13.:27:14.

said we want the best thinking, alongside... There will be a debate

:27:14.:27:16.

alongside... There will be a debate alongside... There will be a debate

:27:16.:27:17.

alongside... There will be a debate about it, he is robust enough to

:27:17.:27:24.

about it, he is robust enough to about it, he is robust enough to

:27:24.:27:24.

about it, he is robust enough to deal with that. All of the things

:27:25.:27:26.

deal with that. All of the things deal with that. All of the things

:27:26.:27:27.

deal with that. All of the things that have been put forward by your

:27:27.:27:30.

that have been put forward by your that have been put forward by your

:27:30.:27:31.

that have been put forward by your colleagues, is it right to use those

:27:31.:27:32.

colleagues, is it right to use those colleagues, is it right to use those

:27:32.:27:34.

suggestions to boost the economy? suggestions to boost the economy?

:27:34.:27:42.

suggestions to boost the economy? should simply ask the question Comet

:27:42.:27:43.

should simply ask the question Comet should simply ask the question Comet

:27:43.:27:44.

is the money being appropriately is the money being appropriately

:27:44.:27:46.

is the money being appropriately is the money being appropriately

:27:46.:27:47.

spent? If it turned out you were not spent? If it turned out you were not

:27:47.:27:48.

spent? If it turned out you were not hitting your development and aid

:27:48.:27:49.

hitting your development and aid hitting your development and aid

:27:49.:27:51.

goals because it was being badly goals because it was being badly

:27:51.:27:52.

goals because it was being badly spent, that would be reason enough

:27:52.:27:54.

spent, that would be reason enough spent, that would be reason enough

:27:54.:27:55.

spent, that would be reason enough to look again at the budget. And you

:27:55.:27:59.

to look again at the budget. And you to look again at the budget. And you

:27:59.:27:59.

would like look again at universal would like look again at universal

:27:59.:28:03.

would like look again at universal benefits? There is a strong balance

:28:03.:28:05.

benefits? There is a strong balance benefits? There is a strong balance

:28:05.:28:05.

about having targeted benefits for about having targeted benefits for

:28:05.:28:07.

about having targeted benefits for the vulnerable whilst at the same

:28:07.:28:09.

the vulnerable whilst at the same the vulnerable whilst at the same

:28:09.:28:10.

time ensuring all of society can time ensuring all of society can

:28:10.:28:12.

time ensuring all of society can benefit. That balance is an

:28:12.:28:13.

benefit. That balance is an benefit. That balance is an

:28:13.:28:14.

benefit. That balance is an important debate to have, but we are

:28:14.:28:15.

important debate to have, but we are important debate to have, but we are

:28:15.:28:16.

moving away from the key point, moving away from the key point,

:28:16.:28:17.

moving away from the key point, moving away from the key point,

:28:17.:28:19.

which is how we make sure we have which is how we make sure we have

:28:19.:28:20.

which is how we make sure we have the wealth creating structures of

:28:20.:28:26.

the wealth creating structures of the wealth creating structures of

:28:26.:28:26.

the wealth creating structures of the future. This is longer than one

:28:26.:28:31.

the future. This is longer than one the future. This is longer than one

:28:31.:28:32.

single parliament. You think George single parliament. You think George

:28:32.:28:33.

single parliament. You think George single parliament. You think George

:28:33.:28:35.

Osborne is still doing a good job? Osborne is still doing a good job?

:28:35.:28:36.

Osborne is still doing a good job? think the Chancellor is doing a

:28:36.:28:39.

think the Chancellor is doing a think the Chancellor is doing a

:28:39.:28:39.

think the Chancellor is doing a great job, and nothing would fill me

:28:39.:28:42.

great job, and nothing would fill me great job, and nothing would fill me

:28:42.:28:43.

great job, and nothing would fill me with more worry than the idea of the

:28:43.:28:45.

with more worry than the idea of the industrial strategy, old school.

:28:45.:28:47.

industrial strategy, old school. industrial strategy, old school.

:28:47.:28:47.

industrial strategy, old school. This shares out a series of good

:28:48.:28:49.

This shares out a series of good This shares out a series of good

:28:49.:28:50.

This shares out a series of good ideas that can be looked at by both

:28:50.:28:52.

ideas that can be looked at by both ideas that can be looked at by both

:28:53.:28:53.

parties. Could you feed yourself on parties. Could you feed yourself on

:28:53.:28:57.

parties. Could you feed yourself on parties. Could you feed yourself on

:28:57.:28:58.

�1 a day? The campaign Live Below �1 a day? The campaign Live Below

:28:58.:28:58.

�1 a day? The campaign Live Below The Line is encouraging people to

:28:58.:29:05.

The Line is encouraging people to The Line is encouraging people to

:29:05.:29:06.

The Line is encouraging people to The Line is encouraging people to

:29:06.:29:10.

spend no more than �1 a day on food. spend no more than �1 a day on food.

:29:10.:29:11.

spend no more than �1 a day on food. More than a billion people around

:29:11.:29:12.

More than a billion people around More than a billion people around

:29:12.:29:13.

More than a billion people around the world have to survive on less

:29:13.:29:13.

the world have to survive on less the world have to survive on less

:29:14.:29:16.

the world have to survive on less than �1 a day for their basic

:29:16.:29:18.

than �1 a day for their basic than �1 a day for their basic

:29:18.:29:19.

needs, and this charity wants people needs, and this charity wants people

:29:19.:29:20.

needs, and this charity wants people needs, and this charity wants people

:29:20.:29:20.

needs, and this charity wants people in the UK to get an idea of what

:29:20.:29:23.

in the UK to get an idea of what in the UK to get an idea of what

:29:23.:29:23.

in the UK to get an idea of what that feels like. They have roped in

:29:23.:29:26.

that feels like. They have roped in that feels like. They have roped in

:29:26.:29:27.

the former first Minister of the former first Minister of

:29:27.:29:28.

the former first Minister of Scotland Jack McConnell to try this

:29:28.:29:30.

Scotland Jack McConnell to try this Scotland Jack McConnell to try this

:29:30.:29:30.

Scotland Jack McConnell to try this Scotland Jack McConnell to try this

:29:30.:29:40.
:29:40.:29:44.

out. What is it like living on �1 a out. What is it like living on �1 a

:29:44.:29:45.

out. What is it like living on �1 a out. What is it like living on �1 a

:29:45.:29:46.

day? It is tough for the full five day? It is tough for the full five

:29:46.:29:47.

day? It is tough for the full five day? It is tough for the full five

:29:47.:29:50.

days. At first you can manage, but days. At first you can manage, but

:29:50.:29:51.

days. At first you can manage, but then it gets tough. You experience

:29:51.:29:51.

then it gets tough. You experience then it gets tough. You experience

:29:51.:29:53.

then it gets tough. You experience what it must be like to live like

:29:53.:29:54.

what it must be like to live like what it must be like to live like

:29:54.:29:57.

what it must be like to live like that all the time, to some extent.

:29:57.:29:58.

that all the time, to some extent. that all the time, to some extent.

:29:58.:29:59.

that all the time, to some extent. What is it that happens to you? Do

:29:59.:29:59.

What is it that happens to you? Do What is it that happens to you? Do

:29:59.:30:02.

What is it that happens to you? Do you get tired or grumpy? I fell

:30:02.:30:03.

you get tired or grumpy? I fell you get tired or grumpy? I fell

:30:03.:30:13.
:30:13.:30:35.

you get tired or grumpy? I fell trying to live on crisps or Mars

:30:35.:30:36.

trying to live on crisps or Mars bars but that is a crazy way of

:30:36.:30:37.

bars but that is a crazy way of bars but that is a crazy way of

:30:37.:30:42.

bars but that is a crazy way of doing it. You have to plan and cut

:30:42.:30:44.

doing it. You have to plan and cut doing it. You have to plan and cut

:30:44.:30:44.

doing it. You have to plan and cut out some of the things you can't

:30:44.:30:46.

out some of the things you can't out some of the things you can't

:30:46.:30:47.

afford. Milk is not affordable afford. Milk is not affordable

:30:47.:30:49.

afford. Milk is not affordable afford. Milk is not affordable

:30:49.:30:50.

inside �5 for five days. At porridge inside �5 for five days. At porridge

:30:50.:30:51.

inside �5 for five days. At porridge inside �5 for five days. At porridge

:30:51.:30:54.

is, so I break my lifelong habits is, so I break my lifelong habits

:30:54.:30:55.

is, so I break my lifelong habits and eat porridge. Lentil soup is

:30:55.:31:00.

and eat porridge. Lentil soup is and eat porridge. Lentil soup is

:31:00.:31:02.

and eat porridge. Lentil soup is great. Nutritional as well. It is an

:31:02.:31:03.

great. Nutritional as well. It is an great. Nutritional as well. It is an

:31:03.:31:03.

opportunity to become aware, raise opportunity to become aware, raise

:31:03.:31:04.

opportunity to become aware, raise awareness and raise money, hope

:31:04.:31:08.

awareness and raise money, hope awareness and raise money, hope

:31:08.:31:09.

awareness and raise money, hope fully. There are some recipes on the

:31:09.:31:11.

fully. There are some recipes on the fully. There are some recipes on the

:31:11.:31:12.

charity's website. Are any of them charity's website. Are any of them

:31:12.:31:13.

charity's website. Are any of them actually nice? Depends what you

:31:13.:31:14.

actually nice? Depends what you actually nice? Depends what you

:31:14.:31:16.

actually nice? Depends what you actually nice? Depends what you

:31:16.:31:17.

regard as nice. I make a good pot of regard as nice. I make a good pot of

:31:17.:31:17.

regard as nice. I make a good pot of regard as nice. I make a good pot of

:31:17.:31:18.

lentil soup! I will bring them along lentil soup! I will bring them along

:31:18.:31:19.

lentil soup! I will bring them along lentil soup! I will bring them along

:31:19.:31:20.

to the Politics Show if you want. to the Politics Show if you want.

:31:20.:31:22.

to the Politics Show if you want. to the Politics Show if you want.

:31:22.:31:23.

it hard bring it in an environment it hard bring it in an environment

:31:23.:31:24.

it hard bring it in an environment it hard bring it in an environment

:31:24.:31:24.

like the House of Lords, where there like the House of Lords, where there

:31:24.:31:27.

like the House of Lords, where there like the House of Lords, where there

:31:27.:31:29.

is a lots of nice food? To be is a lots of nice food? To be

:31:29.:31:29.

is a lots of nice food? To be is a lots of nice food? To be

:31:29.:31:31.

honest, I am going to change my five honest, I am going to change my five

:31:31.:31:32.

honest, I am going to change my five days slightly, because there are

:31:32.:31:35.

days slightly, because there are days slightly, because there are

:31:35.:31:35.

days slightly, because there are times when you just can't plan this

:31:35.:31:36.

times when you just can't plan this times when you just can't plan this

:31:36.:31:38.

as part of a normal working as part of a normal working

:31:38.:31:39.

as part of a normal working as part of a normal working

:31:39.:31:39.

routine. But it is possible to find routine. But it is possible to find

:31:39.:31:42.

routine. But it is possible to find routine. But it is possible to find

:31:42.:31:43.

five days to do it within. You have five days to do it within. You have

:31:43.:31:44.

five days to do it within. You have to be disciplined. Last year, we

:31:44.:31:47.

to be disciplined. Last year, we to be disciplined. Last year, we

:31:47.:31:48.

organised a Lords soup kitchen, as organised a Lords soup kitchen, as

:31:48.:31:51.

organised a Lords soup kitchen, as organised a Lords soup kitchen, as

:31:51.:31:51.

it was called. Our nesting Kim, one it was called. Our nesting Kim, one

:31:51.:31:52.

of our fellow participants, of our fellow participants,

:31:52.:31:54.

of our fellow participants, of our fellow participants,

:31:54.:31:59.

organised a group of us to eat every organised a group of us to eat every

:31:59.:32:00.

organised a group of us to eat every day together on some very cheap

:32:01.:32:01.

day together on some very cheap day together on some very cheap

:32:01.:32:03.

things at lunchtime, and that helped things at lunchtime, and that helped

:32:03.:32:04.

things at lunchtime, and that helped things at lunchtime, and that helped

:32:04.:32:05.

us get through the five days. We all us get through the five days. We all

:32:05.:32:06.

us get through the five days. We all us get through the five days. We all

:32:06.:32:07.

do our bit, and there will be a do our bit, and there will be a

:32:07.:32:07.

do our bit, and there will be a do our bit, and there will be a

:32:07.:32:10.

group of us again doing this this group of us again doing this this

:32:10.:32:11.

group of us again doing this this year. Presumably, you can't have any

:32:11.:32:12.

year. Presumably, you can't have any year. Presumably, you can't have any

:32:12.:32:13.

booze because it is too expensive? booze because it is too expensive?

:32:13.:32:17.

booze because it is too expensive? booze because it is too expensive?

:32:17.:32:18.

No booze, no coffee, no milk. Not No booze, no coffee, no milk. Not

:32:18.:32:19.

No booze, no coffee, no milk. Not No booze, no coffee, no milk. Not

:32:19.:32:21.

even milk in the porridge. You just even milk in the porridge. You just

:32:21.:32:22.

even milk in the porridge. You just cannot afford to do certain things.

:32:22.:32:23.

cannot afford to do certain things. cannot afford to do certain things.

:32:23.:32:24.

cannot afford to do certain things. For me, the biggest lesson is the

:32:24.:32:25.

For me, the biggest lesson is the For me, the biggest lesson is the

:32:25.:32:27.

For me, the biggest lesson is the lack of choice. Two years ago, I

:32:27.:32:28.

lack of choice. Two years ago, I lack of choice. Two years ago, I

:32:28.:32:29.

lack of choice. Two years ago, I burnt one of the meals I was

:32:29.:32:30.

burnt one of the meals I was burnt one of the meals I was

:32:30.:32:31.

burnt one of the meals I was cooking. At that point in the day,

:32:31.:32:33.

cooking. At that point in the day, cooking. At that point in the day,

:32:33.:32:34.

cooking. At that point in the day, there was no money left in the kitty

:32:34.:32:35.

there was no money left in the kitty there was no money left in the kitty

:32:35.:32:36.

there was no money left in the kitty to get something else. So it was

:32:36.:32:37.

to get something else. So it was to get something else. So it was

:32:37.:32:39.

to get something else. So it was either eat that or not at all. That

:32:39.:32:40.

either eat that or not at all. That either eat that or not at all. That

:32:40.:32:40.

either eat that or not at all. That is the reality for a billion people

:32:40.:32:41.

is the reality for a billion people is the reality for a billion people

:32:42.:32:43.

is the reality for a billion people around the world. It is good to

:32:43.:32:47.

around the world. It is good to around the world. It is good to

:32:47.:32:50.

learn these lessons. How realistic learn these lessons. How realistic

:32:50.:32:51.

learn these lessons. How realistic learn these lessons. How realistic

:32:51.:32:52.

is this, compared to life in sub is this, compared to life in sub

:32:52.:32:53.

is this, compared to life in sub Saharan Africa? You will still have

:32:53.:32:54.

Saharan Africa? You will still have Saharan Africa? You will still have

:32:54.:32:56.

your electricity, which costs more your electricity, which costs more

:32:56.:32:57.

your electricity, which costs more your electricity, which costs more

:32:57.:32:58.

than �1 a day and your water and than �1 a day and your water and

:32:58.:32:59.

than �1 a day and your water and your sky sports subscription.

:32:59.:33:00.

your sky sports subscription. your sky sports subscription.

:33:00.:33:02.

your sky sports subscription. a campaign, not a life choice. It is

:33:02.:33:05.

a campaign, not a life choice. It is a campaign, not a life choice. It is

:33:05.:33:07.

not absolutely realistic mode but it not absolutely realistic mode but it

:33:07.:33:07.

not absolutely realistic mode but it does raise awareness and money. It

:33:08.:33:09.

does raise awareness and money. It does raise awareness and money. It

:33:09.:33:11.

does raise awareness and money. It is part of a wider campaign by

:33:11.:33:14.

is part of a wider campaign by is part of a wider campaign by

:33:14.:33:15.

everybody involved. Over 30 UK everybody involved. Over 30 UK

:33:15.:33:17.

everybody involved. Over 30 UK charities are involved this year,

:33:17.:33:18.

charities are involved this year, charities are involved this year,

:33:18.:33:19.

charities are involved this year, hoping to raise over �1 million. So

:33:19.:33:21.

hoping to raise over �1 million. So hoping to raise over �1 million. So

:33:21.:33:23.

hoping to raise over �1 million. So there is a bigger picture, but this

:33:23.:33:24.

there is a bigger picture, but this there is a bigger picture, but this

:33:24.:33:25.

there is a bigger picture, but this is one small step along the way to

:33:25.:33:27.

is one small step along the way to is one small step along the way to

:33:27.:33:29.

ending extreme poverty. Good luck. ending extreme poverty. Good luck.

:33:29.:33:30.

ending extreme poverty. Good luck. ending extreme poverty. Good luck.

:33:30.:33:31.

Hope you don't get too hungry or too Hope you don't get too hungry or too

:33:31.:33:33.

Hope you don't get too hungry or too tired. The campaign starts on the

:33:33.:33:33.

tired. The campaign starts on the tired. The campaign starts on the

:33:33.:33:35.

tired. The campaign starts on the 29th of April. It is being launched

:33:35.:33:36.

29th of April. It is being launched 29th of April. It is being launched

:33:36.:33:37.

today, and Jack will change the today, and Jack will change the

:33:37.:33:38.

today, and Jack will change the today, and Jack will change the

:33:38.:33:39.

dates so that he does not miss out dates so that he does not miss out

:33:39.:33:40.

on any nice dinners. on any nice dinners.

:33:40.:33:44.

on any nice dinners. You should do it too, Adam.

:33:44.:33:47.

You should do it too, Adam. You should do it too, Adam.

:33:47.:33:48.

Julia, is it a worthwhile campaign? Julia, is it a worthwhile campaign?

:33:48.:33:50.

Julia, is it a worthwhile campaign? Julia, is it a worthwhile campaign?

:33:50.:33:50.

It is a worthwhile campaign. It is It is a worthwhile campaign. It is

:33:50.:33:52.

It is a worthwhile campaign. It is not realistic. It does not include

:33:52.:33:53.

not realistic. It does not include not realistic. It does not include

:33:53.:33:54.

not realistic. It does not include fuel costs and people are doing it

:33:54.:33:54.

fuel costs and people are doing it fuel costs and people are doing it

:33:54.:33:55.

fuel costs and people are doing it for five days and they can look

:33:55.:33:56.

for five days and they can look for five days and they can look

:33:56.:33:56.

for five days and they can look forward to the booze and fags and

:33:56.:33:59.

forward to the booze and fags and forward to the booze and fags and

:33:59.:34:00.

forward to the booze and fags and whatever at the end. In my view, it

:34:01.:34:02.

whatever at the end. In my view, it whatever at the end. In my view, it

:34:02.:34:03.

is hugely important for raising is hugely important for raising

:34:03.:34:05.

is hugely important for raising awareness. It is fantastically good

:34:05.:34:06.

awareness. It is fantastically good awareness. It is fantastically good

:34:06.:34:06.

awareness. It is fantastically good discipline and it is great as a

:34:06.:34:08.

discipline and it is great as a discipline and it is great as a

:34:08.:34:08.

fundraiser. The money you don't fundraiser. The money you don't

:34:08.:34:11.

fundraiser. The money you don't fundraiser. The money you don't

:34:11.:34:12.

spend on food, you then give to the spend on food, you then give to the

:34:12.:34:13.

spend on food, you then give to the spend on food, you then give to the

:34:13.:34:14.

campaign. Does it mimic what goes on campaign. Does it mimic what goes on

:34:14.:34:17.

campaign. Does it mimic what goes on in sub Saharan Africa? No.

:34:17.:34:18.

in sub Saharan Africa? No. in sub Saharan Africa? No.

:34:18.:34:19.

in sub Saharan Africa? No. The war in Iraq had a dramatic

:34:19.:34:20.

The war in Iraq had a dramatic The war in Iraq had a dramatic

:34:20.:34:21.

effect on politics and diplomacy in effect on politics and diplomacy in

:34:21.:34:22.

effect on politics and diplomacy in effect on politics and diplomacy in

:34:22.:34:23.

this country, in the Middle East and this country, in the Middle East and

:34:23.:34:25.

this country, in the Middle East and this country, in the Middle East and

:34:25.:34:25.

across the globe. Ten years on, its across the globe. Ten years on, its

:34:25.:34:26.

across the globe. Ten years on, its power to provoke controversy and

:34:26.:34:27.

power to provoke controversy and power to provoke controversy and

:34:27.:34:28.

heated debate has barely diminished, heated debate has barely diminished,

:34:29.:34:29.

heated debate has barely diminished, heated debate has barely diminished,

:34:29.:34:31.

but what has its impact been on Iraq but what has its impact been on Iraq

:34:31.:34:31.

but what has its impact been on Iraq but what has its impact been on Iraq

:34:31.:34:32.

itself and on the way the world itself and on the way the world

:34:32.:34:36.

itself and on the way the world deals with to spot regimes?

:34:36.:34:45.

deals with to spot regimes? deals with to spot regimes?

:34:45.:34:46.

-- despotic regimes. I have long -- despotic regimes. I have long

:34:46.:34:46.

-- despotic regimes. I have long -- despotic regimes. I have long

:34:46.:34:47.

since given up on try to persuade since given up on try to persuade

:34:47.:34:49.

since given up on try to persuade people it was the right decision.

:34:49.:34:49.

people it was the right decision. people it was the right decision.

:34:49.:34:52.

people it was the right decision. Now I am trying to persuade people

:34:52.:34:53.

Now I am trying to persuade people Now I am trying to persuade people

:34:53.:34:53.

to understand how complex and to understand how complex and

:34:53.:34:56.

to understand how complex and to understand how complex and

:34:56.:35:00.

difficult a decision it was. 100 and difficult a decision it was. 100 and

:35:00.:35:00.

difficult a decision it was. 100 and certain -- 179 British personnel

:35:00.:35:02.

certain -- 179 British personnel certain -- 179 British personnel

:35:02.:35:04.

killed, a financial cost of more killed, a financial cost of more

:35:04.:35:05.

killed, a financial cost of more than �9 billion and perhaps more

:35:05.:35:07.

than �9 billion and perhaps more than �9 billion and perhaps more

:35:07.:35:07.

than 120,000 civilian lives lost than 120,000 civilian lives lost

:35:07.:35:08.

than 120,000 civilian lives lost than 120,000 civilian lives lost

:35:08.:35:10.

since the war began. Ten years on, since the war began. Ten years on,

:35:10.:35:14.

since the war began. Ten years on, since the war began. Ten years on,

:35:14.:35:14.

what have we learned from Iraq? what have we learned from Iraq?

:35:14.:35:15.

what have we learned from Iraq? we look back over the interventions

:35:15.:35:17.

we look back over the interventions we look back over the interventions

:35:17.:35:19.

of the last decade, starting with of the last decade, starting with

:35:19.:35:20.

of the last decade, starting with Iraq in 2003, the most important

:35:20.:35:22.

Iraq in 2003, the most important Iraq in 2003, the most important

:35:22.:35:24.

point that comes through is the point that comes through is the

:35:24.:35:25.

point that comes through is the understanding that the military are

:35:25.:35:25.

understanding that the military are understanding that the military are

:35:25.:35:28.

understanding that the military are only part of the solution. They can

:35:28.:35:29.

only part of the solution. They can only part of the solution. They can

:35:29.:35:30.

only part of the solution. They can kick the door in, of course, but

:35:30.:35:31.

kick the door in, of course, but kick the door in, of course, but

:35:31.:35:31.

kick the door in, of course, but somebody else has to go through the

:35:31.:35:34.

somebody else has to go through the door politically with developmental

:35:34.:35:36.

door politically with developmental door politically with developmental

:35:36.:35:37.

door politically with developmental aid, and it has to be toward elated.

:35:37.:35:37.

aid, and it has to be toward elated. aid, and it has to be toward elated.

:35:38.:35:38.

aid, and it has to be toward elated. We have learned time and time again

:35:38.:35:40.

We have learned time and time again We have learned time and time again

:35:40.:35:40.

We have learned time and time again that after the first six or eight

:35:40.:35:42.

that after the first six or eight months, the international community

:35:42.:35:43.

months, the international community months, the international community

:35:43.:35:45.

has usually become part of the has usually become part of the

:35:45.:35:45.

has usually become part of the solution -- part of the problem

:35:45.:35:46.

solution -- part of the problem solution -- part of the problem

:35:46.:35:48.

solution -- part of the problem rather than part of the solution. If

:35:48.:35:49.

rather than part of the solution. If rather than part of the solution. If

:35:49.:35:49.

we had not removed Saddam Hussein we had not removed Saddam Hussein

:35:49.:35:52.

we had not removed Saddam Hussein from power, think what would be

:35:52.:35:53.

from power, think what would be happening with these Arab

:35:53.:35:56.

happening with these Arab happening with these Arab

:35:56.:35:57.

revolutions. Saddam Hussein was 20 revolutions. Saddam Hussein was 20

:35:57.:35:58.

revolutions. Saddam Hussein was 20 revolutions. Saddam Hussein was 20

:35:58.:36:01.

times as bad as President Assad in times as bad as President Assad in

:36:01.:36:02.

times as bad as President Assad in Syria. Think of the consequences of

:36:02.:36:03.

Syria. Think of the consequences of Syria. Think of the consequences of

:36:03.:36:06.

leaving that regime in power. leaving that regime in power.

:36:06.:36:09.

leaving that regime in power. many ways, the Iraqi intervention

:36:09.:36:10.

many ways, the Iraqi intervention many ways, the Iraqi intervention

:36:10.:36:12.

many ways, the Iraqi intervention came ten years or more too late.

:36:12.:36:13.

came ten years or more too late. came ten years or more too late.

:36:13.:36:14.

There was a window of opportunity There was a window of opportunity

:36:14.:36:15.

There was a window of opportunity There was a window of opportunity

:36:15.:36:17.

after the first Gulf War in 1991, after the first Gulf War in 1991,

:36:17.:36:18.

after the first Gulf War in 1991, when the majority of the population

:36:18.:36:19.

when the majority of the population when the majority of the population

:36:19.:36:22.

when the majority of the population rose up against Saddam. That was the

:36:22.:36:22.

rose up against Saddam. That was the rose up against Saddam. That was the

:36:22.:36:23.

plan they required support from the plan they required support from the

:36:23.:36:24.

international community. Ten years international community. Ten years

:36:24.:36:27.

international community. Ten years on, it was mislabelled as an

:36:27.:36:29.

on, it was mislabelled as an on, it was mislabelled as an

:36:29.:36:30.

intervention for weapons of mass intervention for weapons of mass

:36:30.:36:30.

destruction that ultimately were destruction that ultimately were

:36:30.:36:35.

destruction that ultimately were never found, and that tarnished the

:36:35.:36:36.

never found, and that tarnished the image of humanitarian intervention.

:36:36.:36:37.

image of humanitarian intervention. image of humanitarian intervention.

:36:37.:36:38.

That is to the detriment of That is to the detriment of

:36:38.:36:41.

That is to the detriment of countries such as Syria now.

:36:41.:36:42.

countries such as Syria now. countries such as Syria now.

:36:42.:36:42.

According to Iraq body can, the According to Iraq body can, the

:36:42.:36:44.

According to Iraq body can, the number of violence of Ilion deaths

:36:44.:36:45.

number of violence of Ilion deaths number of violence of Ilion deaths

:36:45.:36:48.

number of violence of Ilion deaths in Iraq in 2012 rose for the first

:36:48.:36:51.

in Iraq in 2012 rose for the first in Iraq in 2012 rose for the first

:36:51.:36:52.

in Iraq in 2012 rose for the first time in 23 years. Is there really

:36:52.:36:55.

time in 23 years. Is there really time in 23 years. Is there really

:36:55.:36:56.

time in 23 years. Is there really progress? In Iraq, you can see a

:36:56.:36:58.

progress? In Iraq, you can see a progress? In Iraq, you can see a

:36:58.:36:59.

sort of disordered success. We sort of disordered success. We

:36:59.:37:00.

sort of disordered success. We sort of disordered success. We

:37:00.:37:02.

should not be deceived by the degree should not be deceived by the degree

:37:02.:37:04.

should not be deceived by the degree of violence into thinking that the

:37:04.:37:04.

of violence into thinking that the of violence into thinking that the

:37:05.:37:06.

place is not potentially rich, place is not potentially rich,

:37:06.:37:07.

place is not potentially rich, because it is. A lot of

:37:07.:37:08.

because it is. A lot of because it is. A lot of

:37:08.:37:09.

international companies say that and international companies say that and

:37:09.:37:10.

international companies say that and reckon they can live with the

:37:10.:37:11.

reckon they can live with the reckon they can live with the

:37:11.:37:15.

disorder and invest in the country. disorder and invest in the country.

:37:15.:37:16.

The infrastructure is still The infrastructure is still

:37:16.:37:18.

struggling. The political situation struggling. The political situation

:37:18.:37:20.

struggling. The political situation struggling. The political situation

:37:20.:37:21.

is still critical. To be honest, its is still critical. To be honest, its

:37:21.:37:25.

is still critical. To be honest, its future remains uncertain. But Iraq

:37:25.:37:26.

future remains uncertain. But Iraq future remains uncertain. But Iraq

:37:26.:37:29.

is not passive bystanders any more. is not passive bystanders any more.

:37:29.:37:30.

is not passive bystanders any more. is not passive bystanders any more.

:37:30.:37:31.

They are part of the new democracy, They are part of the new democracy,

:37:31.:37:32.

They are part of the new democracy, They are part of the new democracy,

:37:32.:37:33.

They are part of the new democracy, and I can help shape it. That is a

:37:33.:37:34.

and I can help shape it. That is a and I can help shape it. That is a

:37:34.:37:34.

and I can help shape it. That is a very big difference to how it was

:37:34.:37:36.

very big difference to how it was very big difference to how it was

:37:36.:37:37.

ten years ago. Perhaps the most ten years ago. Perhaps the most

:37:37.:37:38.

ten years ago. Perhaps the most surprising lesson from Iraq Daschle

:37:38.:37:40.

surprising lesson from Iraq Daschle surprising lesson from Iraq Daschle

:37:40.:37:41.

surprising lesson from Iraq Daschle rule nothing out. I have lived my

:37:41.:37:42.

rule nothing out. I have lived my rule nothing out. I have lived my

:37:42.:37:44.

life in the analysis business, life in the analysis business,

:37:44.:37:45.

life in the analysis business, predict that the next five years

:37:45.:37:46.

predict that the next five years predict that the next five years

:37:46.:37:48.

will not see much military will not see much military

:37:48.:37:49.

will not see much military intervention, and then the next five

:37:49.:37:50.

intervention, and then the next five years have been extraordinarily

:37:50.:37:52.

years have been extraordinarily years have been extraordinarily

:37:52.:37:53.

busy. You can never rule these busy. You can never rule these

:37:53.:37:54.

things out, particularly when things out, particularly when

:37:54.:37:55.

things out, particularly when talking about the changes taking

:37:55.:37:56.

talking about the changes taking talking about the changes taking

:37:56.:37:58.

talking about the changes taking place in the Middle East, which are

:37:58.:38:00.

place in the Middle East, which are fundamental at the moment.

:38:00.:38:02.

fundamental at the moment. fundamental at the moment.

:38:02.:38:03.

fundamental at the moment. I am now going by the Conservative

:38:03.:38:04.

I am now going by the Conservative I am now going by the Conservative

:38:04.:38:04.

backbencher Bernard Jenkin and John backbencher Bernard Jenkin and John

:38:04.:38:07.

backbencher Bernard Jenkin and John Kampfner, author of the book Blair's

:38:07.:38:08.

Kampfner, author of the book Blair's Kampfner, author of the book Blair's

:38:08.:38:08.

Wars and presenter of How Iraq Wars and presenter of How Iraq

:38:08.:38:09.

Wars and presenter of How Iraq Wars and presenter of How Iraq

:38:09.:38:10.

Changed The World, which is on radio Changed The World, which is on radio

:38:10.:38:12.

four this evening. four this evening.

:38:12.:38:13.

four this evening. four this evening.

:38:13.:38:14.

Is the world a safer place as a Is the world a safer place as a

:38:14.:38:16.

Is the world a safer place as a result of the Iraq war? Emphatically

:38:16.:38:19.

result of the Iraq war? Emphatically result of the Iraq war? Emphatically

:38:19.:38:20.

result of the Iraq war? Emphatically not. The audit I did for my program

:38:20.:38:22.

not. The audit I did for my program not. The audit I did for my program

:38:22.:38:24.

not. The audit I did for my program goes through all the areas. One of

:38:24.:38:26.

goes through all the areas. One of the most important negative

:38:26.:38:27.

the most important negative the most important negative

:38:27.:38:30.

the most important negative consequences is the rise of Iran. By

:38:30.:38:35.

consequences is the rise of Iran. By consequences is the rise of Iran. By

:38:35.:38:36.

giving enormous regional power to giving enormous regional power to

:38:36.:38:37.

giving enormous regional power to giving enormous regional power to

:38:37.:38:39.

the adversarial to the West and to the adversarial to the West and to

:38:39.:38:40.

the adversarial to the West and to Israel, that was always greater than

:38:40.:38:44.

Israel, that was always greater than Israel, that was always greater than

:38:44.:38:45.

Iraq was, the Israelis were trying Iraq was, the Israelis were trying

:38:45.:38:46.

Iraq was, the Israelis were trying to deter the Americans from going

:38:46.:38:49.

to deter the Americans from going to deter the Americans from going

:38:49.:38:50.

into Iraq, saying, number where the into Iraq, saying, number where the

:38:50.:38:51.

into Iraq, saying, number where the into Iraq, saying, number where the

:38:51.:38:52.

bigger prize. You would have a more bigger prize. You would have a more

:38:52.:38:53.

bigger prize. You would have a more Iraq. You have aimed United States

:38:53.:38:56.

Iraq. You have aimed United States Iraq. You have aimed United States

:38:56.:38:57.

Iraq. You have aimed United States much less confident than it used to

:38:57.:38:58.

much less confident than it used to much less confident than it used to

:38:58.:38:59.

much less confident than it used to be. You have a United Nations that

:38:59.:38:59.

be. You have a United Nations that be. You have a United Nations that

:38:59.:39:03.

be. You have a United Nations that now, as a result of Iraq, you will

:39:03.:39:04.

now, as a result of Iraq, you will now, as a result of Iraq, you will

:39:04.:39:05.

get nothing significant to Russia or get nothing significant to Russia or

:39:05.:39:07.

get nothing significant to Russia or China. So you have diplomatic

:39:07.:39:09.

China. So you have diplomatic China. So you have diplomatic

:39:09.:39:11.

China. So you have diplomatic wedlock, and I am afraid the real

:39:11.:39:13.

wedlock, and I am afraid the real wedlock, and I am afraid the real

:39:13.:39:13.

consequence is the theory of liberal consequence is the theory of liberal

:39:13.:39:14.

consequence is the theory of liberal intervention, which I have always

:39:14.:39:16.

intervention, which I have always intervention, which I have always

:39:16.:39:17.

supported, which is to intervene by supported, which is to intervene by

:39:17.:39:18.

supported, which is to intervene by supported, which is to intervene by

:39:18.:39:19.

all kinds of deft ways to undermine all kinds of deft ways to undermine

:39:19.:39:20.

all kinds of deft ways to undermine those leaders around the world to

:39:20.:39:21.

those leaders around the world to those leaders around the world to

:39:21.:39:22.

those leaders around the world to abuse human rights. Is it time to

:39:22.:39:23.

abuse human rights. Is it time to abuse human rights. Is it time to

:39:23.:39:25.

abuse human rights. Is it time to admit it was a huge mistake was Mac

:39:25.:39:27.

admit it was a huge mistake was Mac admit it was a huge mistake was Mac

:39:27.:39:27.

admit it was a huge mistake was Mac no, it isn't. I was shadow defence

:39:27.:39:28.

no, it isn't. I was shadow defence no, it isn't. I was shadow defence

:39:28.:39:29.

no, it isn't. I was shadow defence secretary at the time and was very

:39:29.:39:30.

secretary at the time and was very secretary at the time and was very

:39:30.:39:33.

close to all these events. In close to all these events. In

:39:33.:39:34.

close to all these events. In close to all these events. In

:39:34.:39:35.

reacting to what John says, one of reacting to what John says, one of

:39:35.:39:35.

reacting to what John says, one of reacting to what John says, one of

:39:36.:39:38.

the things the opponents of the war the things the opponents of the war

:39:38.:39:38.

the things the opponents of the war despise the government and the

:39:38.:39:40.

despise the government and the despise the government and the

:39:40.:39:43.

despise the government and the Americans for is for using Iraq as a

:39:43.:39:44.

Americans for is for using Iraq as a Americans for is for using Iraq as a

:39:44.:39:48.

tool of Western foreign policy tool of Western foreign policy

:39:48.:39:49.

tool of Western foreign policy against Iran. We did test that

:39:49.:39:52.

against Iran. We did test that against Iran. We did test that

:39:52.:39:53.

policy to destruction. To the policy to destruction. To the

:39:53.:39:54.

policy to destruction. To the detriment of Western credibility in

:39:54.:39:56.

detriment of Western credibility in detriment of Western credibility in

:39:56.:39:59.

the Middle East, to support one the Middle East, to support one

:39:59.:40:00.

the Middle East, to support one ghastly dictator... Which was what

:40:00.:40:01.

ghastly dictator... Which was what ghastly dictator... Which was what

:40:01.:40:02.

ghastly dictator... Which was what Tony Blair set, too. It does not add

:40:02.:40:07.

Tony Blair set, too. It does not add Tony Blair set, too. It does not add

:40:07.:40:08.

Tony Blair set, too. It does not add up. It is tempting to say, we

:40:08.:40:10.

up. It is tempting to say, we up. It is tempting to say, we

:40:10.:40:11.

toppled Saddam Hussein, and all toppled Saddam Hussein, and all

:40:11.:40:13.

toppled Saddam Hussein, and all these things have happened since.

:40:13.:40:15.

these things have happened since. Whether those things are

:40:15.:40:15.

Whether those things are consequences of toppling Saddam

:40:15.:40:17.

consequences of toppling Saddam consequences of toppling Saddam

:40:17.:40:18.

Hussein, what would have happened if Hussein, what would have happened if

:40:18.:40:19.

Hussein, what would have happened if he had been toppled ten years

:40:19.:40:20.

he had been toppled ten years he had been toppled ten years

:40:20.:40:26.

earlier, as that person suggested? earlier, as that person suggested?

:40:26.:40:27.

earlier, as that person suggested? In Iraq, there were 2-macro

:40:27.:40:30.

In Iraq, there were 2-macro failures, firstly that the

:40:30.:40:33.

failures, firstly that the centre-left establishment in the

:40:33.:40:34.

centre-left establishment in the centre-left establishment in the

:40:34.:40:34.

world, particularly Britain and the world, particularly Britain and the

:40:34.:40:38.

world, particularly Britain and the United States, obsessed about the

:40:38.:40:41.

United States, obsessed about the United States, obsessed about the

:40:41.:40:41.

legitimacy of this toppling instead legitimacy of this toppling instead

:40:41.:40:43.

legitimacy of this toppling instead of being obsessed about what we

:40:43.:40:45.

of being obsessed about what we of being obsessed about what we

:40:45.:40:47.

would do afterwards. There was so would do afterwards. There was so

:40:47.:40:48.

would do afterwards. There was so little analysis done on what would

:40:48.:40:49.

little analysis done on what would little analysis done on what would

:40:49.:40:51.

little analysis done on what would happen once we got in that if

:40:51.:40:52.

happen once we got in that if happen once we got in that if

:40:52.:40:53.

Margaret Thatcher had been prime Margaret Thatcher had been prime

:40:53.:40:54.

Margaret Thatcher had been prime minister, she would have gone over

:40:54.:40:55.

minister, she would have gone over minister, she would have gone over

:40:55.:40:55.

minister, she would have gone over to see George Bush and said, look,

:40:55.:40:56.

to see George Bush and said, look, to see George Bush and said, look,

:40:56.:40:57.

to see George Bush and said, look, to see George Bush and said, look,

:40:57.:40:58.

we will not go in until we have got we will not go in until we have got

:40:58.:40:59.

we will not go in until we have got we will not go in until we have got

:40:59.:41:00.

this sorted out. But all Tony Blair this sorted out. But all Tony Blair

:41:00.:41:02.

this sorted out. But all Tony Blair wanted to talk about was UN

:41:02.:41:03.

wanted to talk about was UN resolutions and this left-wing

:41:03.:41:05.

resolutions and this left-wing preoccupation with legitimacy when

:41:05.:41:06.

preoccupation with legitimacy when preoccupation with legitimacy when

:41:06.:41:06.

preoccupation with legitimacy when in the end, there was no difficulty

:41:06.:41:09.

in the end, there was no difficulty in the end, there was no difficulty

:41:09.:41:10.

in the end, there was no difficulty with that. In that film, when you

:41:10.:41:12.

with that. In that film, when you with that. In that film, when you

:41:12.:41:12.

with that. In that film, when you hear the guy at the end say the

:41:12.:41:14.

hear the guy at the end say the hear the guy at the end say the

:41:14.:41:15.

Iraqis are no longer passive Iraqis are no longer passive

:41:15.:41:15.

Iraqis are no longer passive bystanders, surely that is a

:41:15.:41:17.

bystanders, surely that is a bystanders, surely that is a

:41:17.:41:20.

positive thing, that there have been positive thing, that there have been

:41:20.:41:21.

positive thing, that there have been positive consequences to the Iraq

:41:21.:41:22.

positive consequences to the Iraq positive consequences to the Iraq

:41:22.:41:23.

war for Iraqis themselves? Of course war for Iraqis themselves? Of course

:41:23.:41:26.

war for Iraqis themselves? Of course there have been some positive

:41:26.:41:27.

there have been some positive there have been some positive

:41:27.:41:29.

consequences and some very negative consequences and some very negative

:41:29.:41:30.

consequences and some very negative consequences and some very negative

:41:30.:41:33.

ones. It is always a mixed picture. ones. It is always a mixed picture.

:41:33.:41:34.

ones. It is always a mixed picture. ones. It is always a mixed picture.

:41:34.:41:35.

The real problem was that there was The real problem was that there was

:41:35.:41:37.

The real problem was that there was no thinking about what happens after

:41:37.:41:38.

no thinking about what happens after no thinking about what happens after

:41:38.:41:38.

the intervention, and that happens the intervention, and that happens

:41:38.:41:40.

the intervention, and that happens the intervention, and that happens

:41:40.:41:43.

time and time again. We are very bad time and time again. We are very bad

:41:43.:41:44.

time and time again. We are very bad time and time again. We are very bad

:41:44.:41:45.

at that. At the risk of flooding my at that. At the risk of flooding my

:41:45.:41:48.

at that. At the risk of flooding my own program, Tony Blair admits this

:41:48.:41:49.

own program, Tony Blair admits this own program, Tony Blair admits this

:41:49.:41:49.

in the interview. Does that mean in the interview. Does that mean

:41:49.:41:52.

in the interview. Does that mean in the interview. Does that mean

:41:52.:41:53.

they should not have gone in? they should not have gone in?

:41:53.:41:54.

they should not have gone in? they should not have gone in?

:41:54.:41:56.

paradox was that he was saying yes, paradox was that he was saying yes,

:41:56.:41:57.

we underestimated the sectarian we underestimated the sectarian

:41:57.:41:58.

we underestimated the sectarian tensions, we thought it would be

:41:58.:41:59.

tensions, we thought it would be tensions, we thought it would be

:41:59.:41:59.

tensions, we thought it would be like Kosovo and we would just get

:41:59.:42:02.

like Kosovo and we would just get like Kosovo and we would just get

:42:02.:42:05.

like Kosovo and we would just get in, toppled a bad guy. They knew

:42:05.:42:06.

in, toppled a bad guy. They knew in, toppled a bad guy. They knew

:42:06.:42:08.

in, toppled a bad guy. They knew that was not true. And Tony Blair

:42:08.:42:09.

that was not true. And Tony Blair dismissed those people as

:42:09.:42:10.

dismissed those people as dismissed those people as

:42:10.:42:12.

defeatists. It is an interesting defeatists. It is an interesting

:42:12.:42:13.

defeatists. It is an interesting question about how government does

:42:13.:42:14.

question about how government does question about how government does

:42:14.:42:16.

question about how government does strategy. I was in Basra three weeks

:42:16.:42:16.

strategy. I was in Basra three weeks strategy. I was in Basra three weeks

:42:16.:42:17.

after the invasion, and it was after the invasion, and it was

:42:17.:42:18.

after the invasion, and it was after the invasion, and it was

:42:18.:42:21.

obvious that we were in that 100 a obvious that we were in that 100 a

:42:21.:42:21.

obvious that we were in that 100 a period, and the Saudi militias now

:42:21.:42:22.

period, and the Saudi militias now period, and the Saudi militias now

:42:22.:42:25.

period, and the Saudi militias now had a free hand to come over. There

:42:25.:42:26.

had a free hand to come over. There had a free hand to come over. There

:42:26.:42:27.

had a free hand to come over. There was no attempt to close the border

:42:27.:42:27.

was no attempt to close the border was no attempt to close the border

:42:27.:42:29.

was no attempt to close the border with Iran. I wrote a note for the

:42:29.:42:30.

with Iran. I wrote a note for the with Iran. I wrote a note for the

:42:30.:42:30.

shadow cabinet, saying, there is shadow cabinet, saying, there is

:42:30.:42:33.

shadow cabinet, saying, there is shadow cabinet, saying, there is

:42:33.:42:34.

going to be an insurgency and we going to be an insurgency and we

:42:34.:42:34.

going to be an insurgency and we will be fighting a counterinsurgency

:42:34.:42:35.

will be fighting a counterinsurgency will be fighting a counterinsurgency

:42:35.:42:38.

will be fighting a counterinsurgency war. Nobody wanted to know. I told

:42:38.:42:38.

war. Nobody wanted to know. I told war. Nobody wanted to know. I told

:42:38.:42:40.

war. Nobody wanted to know. I told Jeff who what was going on. They

:42:40.:42:45.

Jeff who what was going on. They Jeff who what was going on. They

:42:45.:42:46.

Jeff who what was going on. They never want to know. It is a real

:42:46.:42:49.

never want to know. It is a real never want to know. It is a real

:42:49.:42:50.

never want to know. It is a real failure of the way the top of

:42:50.:42:51.

failure of the way the top of government operates under all

:42:51.:42:53.

government operates under all government operates under all

:42:53.:42:53.

government operates under all parties. It has to get better. It is

:42:53.:42:55.

parties. It has to get better. It is parties. It has to get better. It is

:42:55.:42:55.

parties. It has to get better. It is slightly better now that we have the

:42:55.:42:58.

slightly better now that we have the National Security Council. Equally,

:42:58.:42:59.

National Security Council. Equally, National Security Council. Equally,

:42:59.:43:00.

National Security Council. Equally, National Security Council. Equally,

:43:00.:43:01.

it seems to me that there is a real it seems to me that there is a real

:43:01.:43:02.

it seems to me that there is a real it seems to me that there is a real

:43:02.:43:02.

it seems to me that there is a real problem. I am sure you will say I am

:43:02.:43:04.

problem. I am sure you will say I am problem. I am sure you will say I am

:43:04.:43:05.

centre-left, but there is a problem centre-left, but there is a problem

:43:05.:43:07.

centre-left, but there is a problem centre-left, but there is a problem

:43:07.:43:07.

centre-left, but there is a problem for a lot of us in saying, was there

:43:07.:43:09.

for a lot of us in saying, was there for a lot of us in saying, was there

:43:09.:43:10.

a justification for going in? When a justification for going in? When

:43:10.:43:12.

a justification for going in? When the justification you are giving --

:43:12.:43:13.

the justification you are giving -- the justification you are giving --

:43:13.:43:14.

Devon is weapons of mass destruction Devon is weapons of mass destruction

:43:14.:43:15.

Devon is weapons of mass destruction Devon is weapons of mass destruction

:43:15.:43:16.

and they were not there, it is and they were not there, it is

:43:16.:43:17.

and they were not there, it is difficult to have faith in a

:43:17.:43:19.

difficult to have faith in a difficult to have faith in a

:43:19.:43:20.

government that does that. There was government that does that. There was

:43:20.:43:21.

government that does that. There was plenty of merit in Andrew

:43:21.:43:23.

plenty of merit in Andrew Gilligan's story. It is

:43:23.:43:24.

Gilligan's story. It is Gilligan's story. It is

:43:24.:43:25.

extraordinary that the Hutton story extraordinary that the Hutton story

:43:25.:43:26.

extraordinary that the Hutton story extraordinary that the Hutton story

:43:26.:43:27.

turned out as it did. But the point turned out as it did. But the point

:43:27.:43:28.

turned out as it did. But the point about weapons of mass destruction

:43:28.:43:29.

about weapons of mass destruction about weapons of mass destruction

:43:29.:43:33.

about weapons of mass destruction was that that thing came became so

:43:33.:43:36.

was that that thing came became so was that that thing came became so

:43:36.:43:37.

overrate -- over egged. There were overrate -- over egged. There were

:43:37.:43:43.

overrate -- over egged. There were 22 UN military resolutions. In my

:43:43.:43:44.

22 UN military resolutions. In my 22 UN military resolutions. In my

:43:44.:43:45.

22 UN military resolutions. In my program, I was not trying to revisit

:43:45.:43:45.

program, I was not trying to revisit program, I was not trying to revisit

:43:45.:43:47.

program, I was not trying to revisit all the questions of the legality of

:43:47.:43:48.

all the questions of the legality of all the questions of the legality of

:43:48.:43:55.

weapons of mass destruction and all weapons of mass destruction and all

:43:55.:43:56.

weapons of mass destruction and all weapons of mass destruction and all

:43:56.:43:56.

that stuff. When is that going to that stuff. When is that going to

:43:56.:43:58.

that stuff. When is that going to come out? That is an interesting

:43:58.:44:00.

come out? That is an interesting come out? That is an interesting

:44:00.:44:03.

come out? That is an interesting story. I was looking at starting at

:44:03.:44:04.

story. I was looking at starting at story. I was looking at starting at

:44:04.:44:06.

story. I was looking at starting at year zero, shock and awe, the 19th

:44:06.:44:08.

year zero, shock and awe, the 19th year zero, shock and awe, the 19th

:44:08.:44:09.

year zero, shock and awe, the 19th of March, 2003. On that point until

:44:09.:44:12.

of March, 2003. On that point until of March, 2003. On that point until

:44:12.:44:15.

now, has Iraq improved global now, has Iraq improved global

:44:15.:44:16.

now, has Iraq improved global now, has Iraq improved global

:44:16.:44:17.

security? But can you judge it? It security? But can you judge it? It

:44:17.:44:20.

security? But can you judge it? It is impossible to know. The great

:44:20.:44:21.

is impossible to know. The great is impossible to know. The great

:44:21.:44:24.

is impossible to know. The great sadness is that it is harder now.

:44:24.:44:24.

sadness is that it is harder now. sadness is that it is harder now.

:44:24.:44:26.

sadness is that it is harder now. You will not see boots on the

:44:26.:44:29.

You will not see boots on the You will not see boots on the

:44:29.:44:29.

ground, American or British. Obama ground, American or British. Obama

:44:29.:44:30.

ground, American or British. Obama ground, American or British. Obama

:44:30.:44:31.

has said a decade of war has has said a decade of war has

:44:31.:44:34.

has said a decade of war has finished. We will have far less

:44:34.:44:35.

finished. We will have far less finished. We will have far less

:44:35.:44:37.

interesting and public support for interesting and public support for

:44:37.:44:38.

interesting and public support for intervention in the cause of human

:44:38.:44:46.

intervention in the cause of human intervention in the cause of human

:44:46.:44:47.

intervention in the cause of human rights. Has it made the UK reticent

:44:47.:44:47.

rights. Has it made the UK reticent about liberal intervention?

:44:47.:44:54.

about liberal intervention? about liberal intervention?

:44:54.:44:55.

Objectively, as you heard, talking Objectively, as you heard, talking

:44:55.:44:55.

Objectively, as you heard, talking to former dissidents, they are

:44:55.:44:57.

to former dissidents, they are to former dissidents, they are

:44:57.:45:07.

positive about the future of Iraq. positive about the future of Iraq.

:45:07.:45:08.

positive about the future of Iraq. positive about the future of Iraq.

:45:08.:45:09.

At least once we got going in Iraq, At least once we got going in Iraq,

:45:09.:45:12.

At least once we got going in Iraq, At least once we got going in Iraq,

:45:12.:45:13.

we had a political plan, which the we had a political plan, which the

:45:13.:45:18.

we had a political plan, which the military were able to support.

:45:18.:45:19.

military were able to support. military were able to support.

:45:19.:45:21.

of the sadness is about Afghanistan, of the sadness is about Afghanistan,

:45:21.:45:22.

of the sadness is about Afghanistan, of the sadness is about Afghanistan,

:45:22.:45:23.

in the first two years before they in the first two years before they

:45:23.:45:24.

in the first two years before they in the first two years before they

:45:24.:45:25.

focused on Iraq and took their ire focused on Iraq and took their ire

:45:25.:45:27.

focused on Iraq and took their ire focused on Iraq and took their ire

:45:27.:45:28.

the ball, there was the beginning of the ball, there was the beginning of

:45:28.:45:29.

the ball, there was the beginning of something better. The failure is

:45:29.:45:30.

something better. The failure is something better. The failure is

:45:30.:45:31.

something better. The failure is partly to do with the fact they on

:45:31.:45:36.

partly to do with the fact they on partly to do with the fact they on

:45:36.:45:37.

Iraq. On this idea that Britain Iraq. On this idea that Britain

:45:37.:45:38.

Iraq. On this idea that Britain Iraq. On this idea that Britain

:45:38.:45:39.

might have lost its nerve in terms might have lost its nerve in terms

:45:39.:45:40.

might have lost its nerve in terms of intervention, do you think that

:45:40.:45:41.

of intervention, do you think that of intervention, do you think that

:45:42.:45:43.

of intervention, do you think that is the case and that there should be

:45:43.:45:44.

is the case and that there should be is the case and that there should be

:45:44.:45:44.

is the case and that there should be intervention in a more robust way in

:45:44.:45:49.

intervention in a more robust way in intervention in a more robust way in

:45:49.:45:51.

intervention in a more robust way in Syria? I do, I think it is often

:45:51.:45:52.

Syria? I do, I think it is often Syria? I do, I think it is often

:45:52.:45:53.

Syria? I do, I think it is often right to intervene, but if you are

:45:53.:45:54.

right to intervene, but if you are right to intervene, but if you are

:45:54.:45:54.

right to intervene, but if you are going to intervene you have to do so

:45:55.:45:55.

going to intervene you have to do so going to intervene you have to do so

:45:55.:45:56.

going to intervene you have to do so because you know you have a plan for

:45:56.:45:58.

because you know you have a plan for because you know you have a plan for

:45:58.:45:59.

because you know you have a plan for the future and you think there is

:45:59.:46:03.

the future and you think there is the future and you think there is

:46:03.:46:04.

something beneficial. You have got something beneficial. You have got

:46:04.:46:05.

something beneficial. You have got something beneficial. You have got

:46:05.:46:06.

to try and plan, and your plan has to try and plan, and your plan has

:46:06.:46:09.

to try and plan, and your plan has to try and plan, and your plan has

:46:09.:46:10.

got to be strategic and flexible. If got to be strategic and flexible. If

:46:10.:46:11.

got to be strategic and flexible. If we want the capacity to intervene,

:46:11.:46:13.

we want the capacity to intervene, we want the capacity to intervene,

:46:13.:46:17.

we need to increase spending in we need to increase spending in

:46:17.:46:18.

we need to increase spending in defence. Thank you. An intervention

:46:18.:46:20.

defence. Thank you. An intervention defence. Thank you. An intervention

:46:20.:46:20.

defence. Thank you. An intervention is at the top of the current

:46:20.:46:22.

is at the top of the current is at the top of the current

:46:22.:46:23.

political agenda as well. The political agenda as well. The

:46:23.:46:24.

political agenda as well. The foreign office Minister Hugo Swire

:46:24.:46:25.

foreign office Minister Hugo Swire foreign office Minister Hugo Swire

:46:25.:46:26.

was called to the chamber yesterday was called to the chamber yesterday

:46:26.:46:28.

was called to the chamber yesterday to answer a question about the

:46:28.:46:29.

to answer a question about the to answer a question about the

:46:29.:46:30.

to answer a question about the refusal by William Hague to rule out

:46:30.:46:33.

refusal by William Hague to rule out refusal by William Hague to rule out

:46:33.:46:35.

arming the Syrian opposition. MPs arming the Syrian opposition. MPs

:46:35.:46:37.

expressed concern about the expressed concern about the

:46:37.:46:38.

potential consequences, but the potential consequences, but the

:46:38.:46:39.

minister argued Britain cannot minister argued Britain cannot

:46:39.:46:45.

minister argued Britain cannot ignore the situation in Syria.

:46:45.:46:46.

ignore the situation in Syria. ignore the situation in Syria.

:46:46.:46:48.

longer the situation goes on, the longer the situation goes on, the

:46:48.:46:49.

longer the situation goes on, the greater the danger that extremism

:46:49.:46:51.

greater the danger that extremism greater the danger that extremism

:46:51.:46:52.

takes hold, the greater the danger takes hold, the greater the danger

:46:52.:46:53.

of destabilising neighbouring of destabilising neighbouring

:46:53.:46:57.

of destabilising neighbouring countries and the greater the

:46:57.:46:58.

countries and the greater the extreme humanitarian distress

:46:58.:46:59.

extreme humanitarian distress extreme humanitarian distress

:46:59.:47:00.

extreme humanitarian distress involved. We must do more to try to

:47:00.:47:01.

involved. We must do more to try to involved. We must do more to try to

:47:01.:47:05.

involved. We must do more to try to help save lives in Syria. I advise

:47:05.:47:07.

help save lives in Syria. I advise caution. The Foreign Secretary

:47:07.:47:08.

caution. The Foreign Secretary appeared to be contemplating

:47:08.:47:09.

appeared to be contemplating appeared to be contemplating

:47:09.:47:11.

appeared to be contemplating stepping up support for one side in

:47:11.:47:12.

stepping up support for one side in stepping up support for one side in

:47:12.:47:13.

stepping up support for one side in the Civil War. Both sites have been

:47:14.:47:16.

the Civil War. Both sites have been the Civil War. Both sites have been

:47:16.:47:17.

committing atrocities. We may be committing atrocities. We may be

:47:17.:47:18.

committing atrocities. We may be supplying terrorists of the future

:47:18.:47:19.

supplying terrorists of the future supplying terrorists of the future

:47:19.:47:23.

and shipping arms does not reduce and shipping arms does not reduce

:47:23.:47:25.

and shipping arms does not reduce tensions. We saw when we supplied

:47:25.:47:27.

tensions. We saw when we supplied tensions. We saw when we supplied

:47:27.:47:27.

tensions. We saw when we supplied arms to Iraq during the Iraq Iran

:47:27.:47:28.

arms to Iraq during the Iraq Iran arms to Iraq during the Iraq Iran

:47:28.:47:30.

arms to Iraq during the Iraq Iran arms to Iraq during the Iraq Iran

:47:30.:47:31.

war that a lot of people died and in war that a lot of people died and in

:47:31.:47:33.

war that a lot of people died and in the end neither side became our

:47:34.:47:35.

the end neither side became our the end neither side became our

:47:35.:47:36.

friend. Interventions rarely go to friend. Interventions rarely go to

:47:36.:47:37.

friend. Interventions rarely go to friend. Interventions rarely go to

:47:37.:47:38.

plan so I hope the Government will plan so I hope the Government will

:47:38.:47:40.

plan so I hope the Government will think carefully before pushing for

:47:40.:47:41.

think carefully before pushing for think carefully before pushing for

:47:41.:47:43.

change on this policy with regards change on this policy with regards

:47:43.:47:45.

change on this policy with regards change on this policy with regards

:47:45.:47:45.

to neighbours and friends. This is a to neighbours and friends. This is a

:47:45.:47:48.

to neighbours and friends. This is a military stalemate which cannot be

:47:49.:47:50.

military stalemate which cannot be military stalemate which cannot be

:47:50.:47:52.

won by governments. Handing weapons won by governments. Handing weapons

:47:52.:47:54.

won by governments. Handing weapons won by governments. Handing weapons

:47:54.:47:55.

to jihad -ists will make the killing to jihad -ists will make the killing

:47:55.:47:57.

to jihad -ists will make the killing worse, not better, and will also

:47:57.:47:59.

worse, not better, and will also worse, not better, and will also

:47:59.:47:59.

hinder aid efforts that his hinder aid efforts that his

:48:00.:48:01.

hinder aid efforts that his Government is helping with. Can I

:48:01.:48:02.

Government is helping with. Can I Government is helping with. Can I

:48:02.:48:05.

Government is helping with. Can I urge him not to get dragged into the

:48:05.:48:07.

urge him not to get dragged into the quagmire. Whilst this cross-party

:48:07.:48:10.

quagmire. Whilst this cross-party consensus condemning the President

:48:10.:48:13.

consensus condemning the President consensus condemning the President

:48:13.:48:14.

Assad regime, will the Minister Assad regime, will the Minister

:48:14.:48:16.

Assad regime, will the Minister reassure the house proper respect

:48:16.:48:16.

reassure the house proper respect reassure the house proper respect

:48:16.:48:22.

will be shown for international law? will be shown for international law?

:48:22.:48:23.

will be shown for international law? I only wish President Assad showed

:48:23.:48:25.

I only wish President Assad showed I only wish President Assad showed

:48:25.:48:26.

I only wish President Assad showed any interest in any law or any kind

:48:26.:48:31.

any interest in any law or any kind any interest in any law or any kind

:48:31.:48:36.

of human decency. Many people will of human decency. Many people will

:48:36.:48:37.

of human decency. Many people will of human decency. Many people will

:48:37.:48:38.

see this, that we are being drawn see this, that we are being drawn

:48:38.:48:40.

see this, that we are being drawn see this, that we are being drawn

:48:40.:48:41.

ever more into a civil war and ever more into a civil war and

:48:41.:48:43.

ever more into a civil war and taking sides. Is that a fair

:48:43.:48:45.

taking sides. Is that a fair taking sides. Is that a fair

:48:45.:48:46.

description? Know, and I have spent description? Know, and I have spent

:48:46.:48:49.

description? Know, and I have spent the last 35 minutes trying to

:48:49.:48:49.

the last 35 minutes trying to the last 35 minutes trying to

:48:50.:48:51.

the last 35 minutes trying to illustrate why it is not a fair

:48:51.:48:53.

illustrate why it is not a fair illustrate why it is not a fair

:48:53.:48:55.

description. Today it is about description. Today it is about

:48:55.:48:56.

nonlethal equipment and technical nonlethal equipment and technical

:48:56.:48:58.

nonlethal equipment and technical assistance to bold and the Syrian

:48:58.:48:59.

assistance to bold and the Syrian assistance to bold and the Syrian

:48:59.:48:59.

opposition to provide a credible opposition to provide a credible

:49:00.:49:01.

opposition to provide a credible Government to replace the cruel

:49:01.:49:08.

Government to replace the cruel Government to replace the cruel

:49:08.:49:09.

dictatorship of President Assad. dictatorship of President Assad.

:49:09.:49:10.

dictatorship of President Assad. dictatorship of President Assad.

:49:10.:49:12.

have said you would like to see some have said you would like to see some

:49:12.:49:13.

have said you would like to see some sort of intervention in Syria. Do

:49:13.:49:15.

sort of intervention in Syria. Do sort of intervention in Syria. Do

:49:15.:49:16.

sort of intervention in Syria. Do you think it is right to consider

:49:16.:49:18.

you think it is right to consider you think it is right to consider

:49:18.:49:19.

you think it is right to consider arming Syrian rebels? It may be. It

:49:19.:49:21.

arming Syrian rebels? It may be. It arming Syrian rebels? It may be. It

:49:21.:49:21.

arming Syrian rebels? It may be. It is not impossible that we should go

:49:21.:49:23.

is not impossible that we should go is not impossible that we should go

:49:23.:49:24.

is not impossible that we should go into Syria in some way, but you have

:49:24.:49:25.

into Syria in some way, but you have into Syria in some way, but you have

:49:25.:49:26.

into Syria in some way, but you have to have a serious game plan, you

:49:26.:49:28.

to have a serious game plan, you to have a serious game plan, you

:49:28.:49:29.

to have a serious game plan, you have to know what you want as the

:49:29.:49:30.

have to know what you want as the have to know what you want as the

:49:30.:49:31.

have to know what you want as the outcome and you have to see the

:49:31.:49:32.

outcome and you have to see the outcome and you have to see the

:49:32.:49:35.

Syrian rebels as preferable to the Syrian rebels as preferable to the

:49:35.:49:38.

Syrian rebels as preferable to the Syrian rebels as preferable to the

:49:38.:49:39.

regime. Do you think we should go in regime. Do you think we should go in

:49:40.:49:41.

regime. Do you think we should go in regime. Do you think we should go in

:49:41.:49:41.

at the moment? Not until we know at the moment? Not until we know

:49:41.:49:43.

at the moment? Not until we know at the moment? Not until we know

:49:43.:49:46.

what we want to do and we have what we want to do and we have

:49:46.:49:48.

what we want to do and we have allies. The Americans have said they

:49:48.:49:52.

allies. The Americans have said they allies. The Americans have said they

:49:52.:49:53.

don't. It really is an appalling don't. It really is an appalling

:49:53.:49:53.

don't. It really is an appalling humanitarian situation and that does

:49:53.:49:55.

humanitarian situation and that does humanitarian situation and that does

:49:55.:49:56.

humanitarian situation and that does humanitarian situation and that does

:49:56.:49:57.

seem to me to be a reason to go in seem to me to be a reason to go in

:49:57.:49:58.

seem to me to be a reason to go in seem to me to be a reason to go in

:49:58.:49:59.

seem to me to be a reason to go in but it will not be a quick air and

:49:59.:50:03.

but it will not be a quick air and but it will not be a quick air and

:50:03.:50:04.

but it will not be a quick air and but it will not be a quick air and

:50:04.:50:05.

out. How do you keep your MP is in out. How do you keep your MP is in

:50:05.:50:07.

out. How do you keep your MP is in out. How do you keep your MP is in

:50:07.:50:07.

line if you are a whip? Particularly line if you are a whip? Particularly

:50:07.:50:08.

line if you are a whip? Particularly line if you are a whip? Particularly

:50:08.:50:12.

if every vote is on a knife edge? if every vote is on a knife edge?

:50:12.:50:13.

if every vote is on a knife edge? The usual shadowy tactics have been

:50:13.:50:20.

The usual shadowy tactics have been The usual shadowy tactics have been

:50:20.:50:21.

dragged into the spotlight, and it dragged into the spotlight, and it

:50:21.:50:21.

dragged into the spotlight, and it dragged into the spotlight, and it

:50:22.:50:25.

was all witnessed by a young Labour was all witnessed by a young Labour

:50:25.:50:31.

was all witnessed by a young Labour was all witnessed by a young Labour

:50:31.:50:32.

MP, Ann Taylor. For the next few MP, Ann Taylor. For the next few

:50:32.:50:33.

MP, Ann Taylor. For the next few months, Westminster types will be

:50:33.:50:34.

months, Westminster types will be months, Westminster types will be

:50:34.:50:35.

flocking to the National Theatre to flocking to the National Theatre to

:50:35.:50:38.

flocking to the National Theatre to flocking to the National Theatre to

:50:38.:50:39.

see this house. The play was such a see this house. The play was such a

:50:39.:50:40.

see this house. The play was such a see this house. The play was such a

:50:40.:50:42.

hit when it was first staged last hit when it was first staged last

:50:42.:50:43.

hit when it was first staged last hit when it was first staged last

:50:44.:50:44.

year, it has been given another run year, it has been given another run

:50:44.:50:45.

year, it has been given another run year, it has been given another run

:50:45.:50:47.

year, it has been given another run in a big theatre. It is set in the

:50:47.:50:48.

in a big theatre. It is set in the in a big theatre. It is set in the

:50:48.:50:50.

70s when Labour Prime Minister Jim 70s when Labour Prime Minister Jim

:50:50.:50:52.

Callaghan clung precariously to Callaghan clung precariously to

:50:52.:50:53.

Callaghan clung precariously to Callaghan clung precariously to

:50:53.:50:54.

power but the show focuses on the power but the show focuses on the

:50:54.:50:56.

power but the show focuses on the low politics and sneaky tactics of

:50:56.:50:59.

low politics and sneaky tactics of low politics and sneaky tactics of

:50:59.:51:02.

the whip's office. Here is a the whip's office. Here is a

:51:02.:51:03.

the whip's office. Here is a the whip's office. Here is a

:51:03.:51:06.

screwdriver, keep it with you at all screwdriver, keep it with you at all

:51:06.:51:07.

screwdriver, keep it with you at all screwdriver, keep it with you at all

:51:07.:51:08.

times. You have got eight minutes to times. You have got eight minutes to

:51:08.:51:09.

times. You have got eight minutes to get members through the lobby, each

:51:09.:51:12.

get members through the lobby, each get members through the lobby, each

:51:12.:51:13.

get members through the lobby, each which takes a trip to the toilet,

:51:13.:51:19.

which takes a trip to the toilet, which takes a trip to the toilet,

:51:19.:51:21.

flush them out. These actors play flush them out. These actors play

:51:21.:51:22.

flush them out. These actors play flush them out. These actors play

:51:22.:51:23.

the Labour whip and his deputy, but the Labour whip and his deputy, but

:51:23.:51:25.

the Labour whip and his deputy, but the Labour whip and his deputy, but

:51:25.:51:26.

who is that? It is the real Ann who is that? It is the real Ann

:51:26.:51:27.

who is that? It is the real Ann Taylor, who we brought along to

:51:27.:51:28.

Taylor, who we brought along to Taylor, who we brought along to

:51:28.:51:30.

Taylor, who we brought along to watch the rehearsal. What is it like

:51:30.:51:31.

watch the rehearsal. What is it like watch the rehearsal. What is it like

:51:31.:51:35.

watch the rehearsal. What is it like the in your life on stage? I am

:51:35.:51:37.

the in your life on stage? I am the in your life on stage? I am

:51:38.:51:38.

staggered that the essence and staggered that the essence and

:51:38.:51:39.

staggered that the essence and staggered that the essence and

:51:39.:51:40.

reality of politics at that time has reality of politics at that time has

:51:40.:51:42.

reality of politics at that time has reality of politics at that time has

:51:42.:51:42.

come over with people who were not come over with people who were not

:51:43.:51:43.

come over with people who were not come over with people who were not

:51:43.:51:44.

involved and I think it is a good involved and I think it is a good

:51:44.:51:45.

involved and I think it is a good involved and I think it is a good

:51:45.:51:46.

involved and I think it is a good play in its own right, but also as a

:51:46.:51:50.

play in its own right, but also as a play in its own right, but also as a

:51:50.:51:51.

play in its own right, but also as a piece of history. I think it also

:51:51.:51:52.

piece of history. I think it also piece of history. I think it also

:51:52.:51:53.

piece of history. I think it also shows politics is a team game, not

:51:53.:51:56.

shows politics is a team game, not shows politics is a team game, not

:51:56.:51:57.

just about the primadonna's. It is just about the primadonna's. It is

:51:57.:51:59.

just about the primadonna's. It is about the workhorse that is the

:51:59.:52:01.

about the workhorse that is the about the workhorse that is the

:52:01.:52:02.

about the workhorse that is the whip's office. I don't know if that

:52:02.:52:04.

whip's office. I don't know if that whip's office. I don't know if that

:52:04.:52:05.

comes across. Yes, less about the comes across. Yes, less about the

:52:05.:52:09.

comes across. Yes, less about the names you would know like Margaret

:52:09.:52:11.

names you would know like Margaret names you would know like Margaret

:52:11.:52:13.

Thatcher. It is about the workings, Thatcher. It is about the workings,

:52:13.:52:14.

Thatcher. It is about the workings, the engine room, not something I

:52:14.:52:16.

the engine room, not something I the engine room, not something I

:52:16.:52:18.

knew anything about before I was knew anything about before I was

:52:18.:52:23.

knew anything about before I was doing this. Whips work under a

:52:23.:52:28.

doing this. Whips work under a doing this. Whips work under a

:52:28.:52:29.

doing this. Whips work under a strict code of secrecy so how did

:52:29.:52:30.

strict code of secrecy so how did strict code of secrecy so how did

:52:30.:52:34.

strict code of secrecy so how did they get them to spill the beans?

:52:34.:52:35.

they get them to spill the beans? they get them to spill the beans?

:52:35.:52:36.

they get them to spill the beans? is far enough away now for people to

:52:36.:52:37.

is far enough away now for people to is far enough away now for people to

:52:37.:52:41.

have perspective and be candid about have perspective and be candid about

:52:41.:52:47.

have perspective and be candid about events. Do you like football?

:52:47.:52:48.

events. Do you like football? events. Do you like football?

:52:48.:52:58.

events. Do you like football? Wanderers. That is in no event.

:52:58.:52:59.

Wanderers. That is in no event. Wanderers. That is in no event.

:52:59.:53:01.

great play. Ann Taylor does it great play. Ann Taylor does it

:53:01.:53:02.

great play. Ann Taylor does it great play. Ann Taylor does it

:53:02.:53:03.

capture your life as it was then? capture your life as it was then?

:53:03.:53:05.

capture your life as it was then? Yes, it is amazing, the whole

:53:05.:53:06.

Yes, it is amazing, the whole Yes, it is amazing, the whole

:53:06.:53:08.

atmosphere it creates. Given there atmosphere it creates. Given there

:53:08.:53:10.

atmosphere it creates. Given there has got to be artistic license,

:53:10.:53:11.

has got to be artistic license, has got to be artistic license,

:53:11.:53:11.

has got to be artistic license, there was not so much slapstick and

:53:11.:53:14.

there was not so much slapstick and there was not so much slapstick and

:53:14.:53:15.

bouncing around, but the emphasis of bouncing around, but the emphasis of

:53:15.:53:16.

bouncing around, but the emphasis of where the tension was, where the

:53:16.:53:17.

where the tension was, where the where the tension was, where the

:53:17.:53:21.

where the tension was, where the excitement was, it is their. But the

:53:21.:53:22.

excitement was, it is their. But the excitement was, it is their. But the

:53:22.:53:23.

environment when I was watching it, environment when I was watching it,

:53:23.:53:24.

environment when I was watching it, when they were sitting around, you

:53:24.:53:27.

when they were sitting around, you when they were sitting around, you

:53:27.:53:28.

when they were sitting around, you were the only woman in the whip's

:53:28.:53:31.

were the only woman in the whip's office, match oh, politically

:53:31.:53:33.

office, match oh, politically office, match oh, politically

:53:33.:53:34.

office, match oh, politically incorrect, how did it feel at the

:53:34.:53:36.

incorrect, how did it feel at the incorrect, how did it feel at the

:53:36.:53:37.

incorrect, how did it feel at the time? There were only 27 women in

:53:37.:53:38.

time? There were only 27 women in time? There were only 27 women in

:53:38.:53:39.

time? There were only 27 women in the whole of the House of Commons in

:53:39.:53:41.

the whole of the House of Commons in the whole of the House of Commons in

:53:41.:53:42.

those days. It was an unusual those days. It was an unusual

:53:42.:53:43.

those days. It was an unusual those days. It was an unusual

:53:43.:53:43.

situation but if you've just got on situation but if you've just got on

:53:43.:53:45.

situation but if you've just got on situation but if you've just got on

:53:45.:53:46.

with the job, the men did treat you with the job, the men did treat you

:53:46.:53:49.

with the job, the men did treat you with the job, the men did treat you

:53:49.:53:49.

with the job, the men did treat you as one of the boys or one of the

:53:49.:53:51.

as one of the boys or one of the as one of the boys or one of the

:53:51.:53:51.

team because the essence of the team because the essence of the

:53:51.:53:53.

team because the essence of the team because the essence of the

:53:53.:53:53.

team because the essence of the office is that it has got to be a

:53:53.:53:56.

office is that it has got to be a office is that it has got to be a

:53:56.:53:57.

office is that it has got to be a team. They tease you, and you tease

:53:57.:53:59.

team. They tease you, and you tease team. They tease you, and you tease

:54:00.:54:01.

team. They tease you, and you tease back. I love the bit when they were

:54:01.:54:03.

back. I love the bit when they were back. I love the bit when they were

:54:03.:54:04.

back. I love the bit when they were swearing and they said sorry to you.

:54:04.:54:06.

swearing and they said sorry to you. swearing and they said sorry to you.

:54:06.:54:06.

swearing and they said sorry to you. That was genuine. They used to swear

:54:06.:54:09.

That was genuine. They used to swear That was genuine. They used to swear

:54:09.:54:09.

quite frequently, and one of the quite frequently, and one of the

:54:09.:54:13.

quite frequently, and one of the quite frequently, and one of the

:54:13.:54:14.

whips from London said "I will sit whips from London said "I will sit

:54:14.:54:15.

whips from London said "I will sit whips from London said "I will sit

:54:15.:54:16.

next to her" and they were saying next to her" and they were saying

:54:16.:54:21.

next to her" and they were saying next to her" and they were saying

:54:22.:54:22.

sorry to me. You were the whip sorry to me. You were the whip

:54:23.:54:25.

sorry to me. You were the whip recently, has it changed? Have you

:54:25.:54:26.

recently, has it changed? Have you recently, has it changed? Have you

:54:26.:54:27.

recently, has it changed? Have you seen the play? No, it took me two

:54:27.:54:28.

seen the play? No, it took me two seen the play? No, it took me two

:54:28.:54:31.

seen the play? No, it took me two months to get a ticket. On the basis

:54:31.:54:33.

months to get a ticket. On the basis months to get a ticket. On the basis

:54:33.:54:35.

months to get a ticket. On the basis of what you have heard, has it

:54:35.:54:37.

of what you have heard, has it of what you have heard, has it

:54:37.:54:38.

changed? Yes, firstly I think the changed? Yes, firstly I think the

:54:38.:54:39.

changed? Yes, firstly I think the hours have changed and having more

:54:39.:54:41.

hours have changed and having more hours have changed and having more

:54:41.:54:42.

women in Parliament has forced the women in Parliament has forced the

:54:42.:54:45.

women in Parliament has forced the women in Parliament has forced the

:54:45.:54:47.

whip's office to change, and to be whip's office to change, and to be

:54:47.:54:48.

whip's office to change, and to be more sensitive to demands. Women are

:54:48.:54:49.

more sensitive to demands. Women are more sensitive to demands. Women are

:54:50.:54:50.

better than men at multitasking and better than men at multitasking and

:54:50.:54:52.

better than men at multitasking and better than men at multitasking and

:54:52.:54:52.

they want to get home to see their they want to get home to see their

:54:52.:54:56.

they want to get home to see their children and things like that.

:54:56.:54:57.

children and things like that. children and things like that.

:54:57.:55:01.

children and things like that. they didn't in those days! Is it a

:55:01.:55:02.

they didn't in those days! Is it a they didn't in those days! Is it a

:55:02.:55:03.

they didn't in those days! Is it a good job when you are having to

:55:03.:55:08.

good job when you are having to good job when you are having to

:55:08.:55:09.

cajole your colleagues into having cajole your colleagues into having

:55:09.:55:11.

cajole your colleagues into having cajole your colleagues into having

:55:11.:55:12.

the right division? If you are a the right division? If you are a

:55:12.:55:13.

straightforward party politician straightforward party politician

:55:13.:55:15.

straightforward party politician wanting to give the electorate a

:55:15.:55:17.

wanting to give the electorate a wanting to give the electorate a

:55:17.:55:17.

wanting to give the electorate a choice between them and us, you keep

:55:17.:55:19.

choice between them and us, you keep choice between them and us, you keep

:55:19.:55:21.

choice between them and us, you keep choice between them and us, you keep

:55:21.:55:22.

your show on the road. It is not all your show on the road. It is not all

:55:22.:55:24.

your show on the road. It is not all about torture and twisting arms, it

:55:24.:55:24.

about torture and twisting arms, it about torture and twisting arms, it

:55:24.:55:26.

is about being a communication is about being a communication

:55:26.:55:28.

is about being a communication channel between backbenchers and the

:55:28.:55:29.

channel between backbenchers and the channel between backbenchers and the

:55:29.:55:30.

Government so it is fascinating as Government so it is fascinating as

:55:30.:55:32.

Government so it is fascinating as Government so it is fascinating as

:55:32.:55:33.

an insight into what is happening in an insight into what is happening in

:55:33.:55:34.

an insight into what is happening in politics at any particular point in

:55:34.:55:38.

politics at any particular point in politics at any particular point in

:55:38.:55:39.

time. Using those dodgy tactics that time. Using those dodgy tactics that

:55:39.:55:40.

time. Using those dodgy tactics that time. Using those dodgy tactics that

:55:40.:55:41.

were to some extent shown in the were to some extent shown in the

:55:41.:55:46.

were to some extent shown in the play, does that still happening?

:55:46.:55:46.

play, does that still happening? play, does that still happening?

:55:46.:55:48.

play, does that still happening? cannot say it is myth, but from the

:55:48.:55:49.

cannot say it is myth, but from the cannot say it is myth, but from the

:55:49.:55:50.

cannot say it is myth, but from the five years that I was there, the

:55:50.:55:51.

five years that I was there, the five years that I was there, the

:55:51.:55:53.

five years that I was there, the things I used to hear, the stories

:55:53.:55:55.

things I used to hear, the stories things I used to hear, the stories

:55:55.:55:56.

about the whip's office, certainly about the whip's office, certainly

:55:56.:56:01.

about the whip's office, certainly it didn't happen. Firstly, we were

:56:01.:56:02.

it didn't happen. Firstly, we were it didn't happen. Firstly, we were

:56:02.:56:04.

trying to ensure that people going trying to ensure that people going

:56:04.:56:05.

trying to ensure that people going through the lobbies were supportive

:56:05.:56:07.

through the lobbies were supportive through the lobbies were supportive

:56:07.:56:09.

through the lobbies were supportive of us, trying to persuade people who

:56:09.:56:10.

of us, trying to persuade people who of us, trying to persuade people who

:56:10.:56:11.

were not supportive to be were not supportive to be

:56:11.:56:16.

were not supportive to be were not supportive to be

:56:16.:56:16.

supportive, but also we had an HR supportive, but also we had an HR

:56:16.:56:18.

supportive, but also we had an HR supportive, but also we had an HR

:56:18.:56:19.

function. We each had a flock of function. We each had a flock of

:56:19.:56:20.

function. We each had a flock of people who we were responsible to

:56:20.:56:20.

people who we were responsible to people who we were responsible to

:56:21.:56:25.

when there were personal issues. If when there were personal issues. If

:56:25.:56:26.

when there were personal issues. If when there were personal issues. If

:56:26.:56:27.

you look at the 2010 intake, I think you look at the 2010 intake, I think

:56:27.:56:28.

you look at the 2010 intake, I think you look at the 2010 intake, I think

:56:28.:56:31.

something like 16 of the people who something like 16 of the people who

:56:31.:56:32.

something like 16 of the people who came in are either separated or

:56:32.:56:34.

came in are either separated or came in are either separated or

:56:34.:56:34.

divorced from their partners so divorced from their partners so

:56:34.:56:36.

divorced from their partners so divorced from their partners so

:56:36.:56:37.

there is stress in the job, in being there is stress in the job, in being

:56:37.:56:39.

there is stress in the job, in being there is stress in the job, in being

:56:39.:56:40.

an MP, and trying to be sensitive to an MP, and trying to be sensitive to

:56:40.:56:42.

an MP, and trying to be sensitive to those pressures is important.

:56:42.:56:43.

those pressures is important. those pressures is important.

:56:43.:56:45.

those pressures is important. of those things come up in the

:56:45.:56:45.

of those things come up in the of those things come up in the

:56:45.:56:46.

of those things come up in the play. What about in the House of

:56:46.:56:52.

play. What about in the House of play. What about in the House of

:56:52.:56:53.

Lords? Of course the same things Lords? Of course the same things

:56:53.:56:54.

Lords? Of course the same things Lords? Of course the same things

:56:54.:56:56.

happen but it is not the same. I happen but it is not the same. I

:56:56.:56:58.

happen but it is not the same. I think it is different, I don't

:56:58.:57:00.

think it is different, I don't think it is different, I don't

:57:00.:57:01.

think it is different, I don't know. The problem in the House of

:57:01.:57:02.

know. The problem in the House of know. The problem in the House of

:57:02.:57:03.

know. The problem in the House of Lords is they haven't got much power

:57:03.:57:08.

Lords is they haven't got much power Lords is they haven't got much power

:57:08.:57:11.

over us. We are therefore life over us. We are therefore life

:57:11.:57:13.

over us. We are therefore life unless something gets changed.

:57:13.:57:17.

unless something gets changed. unless something gets changed.

:57:17.:57:18.

the moment! That makes it difficult the moment! That makes it difficult

:57:18.:57:19.

the moment! That makes it difficult the moment! That makes it difficult

:57:19.:57:19.

for the whips. Are they going to for the whips. Are they going to

:57:19.:57:23.

for the whips. Are they going to for the whips. Are they going to

:57:23.:57:24.

send you to Coventry? It will not send you to Coventry? It will not

:57:24.:57:26.

send you to Coventry? It will not send you to Coventry? It will not

:57:26.:57:27.

work. It is different. They try very work. It is different. They try very

:57:27.:57:30.

work. It is different. They try very hard and there are some impressive

:57:30.:57:31.

hard and there are some impressive hard and there are some impressive

:57:31.:57:31.

hard and there are some impressive whips but I think the pastoral role

:57:31.:57:32.

whips but I think the pastoral role whips but I think the pastoral role

:57:32.:57:33.

whips but I think the pastoral role is interesting. It is one of the

:57:33.:57:34.

is interesting. It is one of the is interesting. It is one of the

:57:34.:57:34.

is interesting. It is one of the things I have seen amongst the whips

:57:34.:57:35.

things I have seen amongst the whips things I have seen amongst the whips

:57:35.:57:39.

things I have seen amongst the whips in the House of Lords and that is

:57:39.:57:40.

in the House of Lords and that is in the House of Lords and that is

:57:40.:57:42.

the extraordinary pastoral role they the extraordinary pastoral role they

:57:42.:57:45.

the extraordinary pastoral role they the extraordinary pastoral role they

:57:45.:57:46.

play. A lot of us are older and play. A lot of us are older and

:57:46.:57:47.

play. A lot of us are older and play. A lot of us are older and

:57:47.:57:48.

there is the issue about ageing and there is the issue about ageing and

:57:48.:57:49.

there is the issue about ageing and that has been an interesting insight

:57:49.:57:51.

that has been an interesting insight that has been an interesting insight

:57:51.:57:53.

that has been an interesting insight into what the whips do. Do you think

:57:53.:57:54.

into what the whips do. Do you think into what the whips do. Do you think

:57:54.:57:57.

into what the whips do. Do you think there is anything that can be learnt

:57:57.:57:58.

there is anything that can be learnt there is anything that can be learnt

:57:58.:57:59.

there is anything that can be learnt by whips today based on the play?

:57:59.:58:00.

by whips today based on the play? by whips today based on the play?

:58:00.:58:04.

Every vote was critical, it seemed. Every vote was critical, it seemed.

:58:04.:58:05.

Every vote was critical, it seemed. Are any of those themes salient

:58:05.:58:07.

Are any of those themes salient Are any of those themes salient

:58:07.:58:08.

today? We have had some critical today? We have had some critical

:58:08.:58:10.

today? We have had some critical today? We have had some critical

:58:10.:58:10.

votes in the House of Lords recently votes in the House of Lords recently

:58:10.:58:13.

votes in the House of Lords recently votes in the House of Lords recently

:58:13.:58:14.

and done very well on them. I would and done very well on them. I would

:58:14.:58:15.

and done very well on them. I would emphasise that politics is not just

:58:15.:58:18.

emphasise that politics is not just emphasise that politics is not just

:58:18.:58:18.

about primadonna's, not just about about primadonna's, not just about

:58:18.:58:20.

about primadonna's, not just about the people who write their own

:58:20.:58:21.

the people who write their own the people who write their own

:58:21.:58:24.

autobiographies. It is about people autobiographies. It is about people

:58:24.:58:25.

autobiographies. It is about people autobiographies. It is about people

:58:25.:58:26.

who turn up every day and do the who turn up every day and do the

:58:26.:58:28.

who turn up every day and do the who turn up every day and do the

:58:28.:58:29.

work in a diligent and sincere way work in a diligent and sincere way

:58:29.:58:30.

work in a diligent and sincere way work in a diligent and sincere way

:58:30.:58:30.

and they are the people who don't and they are the people who don't

:58:30.:58:31.

and they are the people who don't and they are the people who don't

:58:31.:58:34.

get any credit most of the time. A get any credit most of the time. A

:58:34.:58:35.

get any credit most of the time. A play that emphasises the team nature

:58:35.:58:36.

play that emphasises the team nature play that emphasises the team nature

:58:36.:58:38.

of politics is actually very of politics is actually very

:58:38.:58:39.

of politics is actually very important as part of everybody's

:58:39.:58:45.

important as part of everybody's important as part of everybody's

:58:45.:58:46.

education. Enjoy the play. I am education. Enjoy the play. I am

:58:46.:58:50.

education. Enjoy the play. I am education. Enjoy the play. I am

:58:50.:58:53.

going to go again. Thank you to our going to go again. Thank you to our

:58:53.:58:54.

going to go again. Thank you to our guests. The one o'clock News is

:58:54.:58:55.

guests. The one o'clock News is guests. The one o'clock News is

:58:55.:58:57.

guests. The one o'clock News is starting on BBC1 now, and I will be

:58:57.:58:58.

Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS