Browse content similar to 15/04/2013. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Welcome to the Daily Politics where MPs, like us, are returning from | :00:43. | :00:49. | |
their Easter break. Much of the week will of course be dominated by | :00:49. | :00:53. | |
the funeral of Baroness Thatcher on Wednesday. Early this morning a | :00:53. | :00:56. | |
rehearsal of the military ceremony took place in central London. | :00:56. | :00:59. | |
Hundreds of members of the armed forces lined the route of the | :00:59. | :01:03. | |
procession, from Westminster to Saint Paul's Cathedral. MPs are | :01:03. | :01:06. | |
this afternoon expected to approve plans cancelling this week's PMQs. | :01:06. | :01:11. | |
Campaigning for next month's local elections is under way. We will be | :01:11. | :01:14. | |
asking can any of the parties change the political weather. | :01:14. | :01:17. | |
A limit on the amount people can claim in benefits comes into force | :01:17. | :01:23. | |
for the first time today. We sent Giles out to test the national mood. | :01:23. | :01:30. | |
They want to go and find the drug users and take their benefits away. | :01:30. | :01:35. | |
And should Ed Miliband be shopping around for advice? Save your money. | :01:35. | :01:39. | |
Plenty of Blairites seem to be dishing it out for free. | :01:39. | :01:44. | |
All that in the next hour. We are joined for the whole of today's | :01:44. | :01:46. | |
programme by the former Welsh Secretary Cheryl Gillan, the former | :01:46. | :01:49. | |
Culture Ssecretary Tessa Jowell and the former Lib Dem leader Ming | :01:49. | :01:55. | |
Campbell. If you can find three MPs that bring with them more wisdom | :01:55. | :01:59. | |
and experience than this lot, then please give us a call. We will sign | :01:59. | :02:07. | |
them up! You can never over flatter any MP. So I have discovered. | :02:07. | :02:11. | |
Now, politics as normal is on hold this week for the funeral of Lady | :02:11. | :02:14. | |
Thatcher on Wednesday. The government is planning to cancel | :02:14. | :02:17. | |
PMQs, and preparations are well under way for the ceremonial | :02:17. | :02:21. | |
procession from Westminster to St Paul's Cathedral. As the sun was | :02:21. | :02:23. | |
coming up this morning, there was a full-scale military dress rehearsal | :02:23. | :02:26. | |
for the event, with regiments which fought in the Falklands | :02:26. | :02:29. | |
accompanying a coffin draped in the Union flag as it was carried first | :02:29. | :02:34. | |
by gun carriage and then by pall bearers to St Paul's. More than 700 | :02:34. | :02:37. | |
members of the armed forces were involved, from all three services, | :02:37. | :02:39. | |
and the procession band played the funeral marches of Chopin, | :02:39. | :02:42. | |
Beethoven and Mendelssohn as it made its way along the deserted | :02:42. | :02:47. | |
streets for the rehearsal. Yesterday, the Bishop of Grantham | :02:47. | :02:50. | |
told the Sunday Politics that spending millions on the event was | :02:50. | :02:54. | |
a mistake. Police preparations are also under way to make sure that | :02:54. | :02:59. | |
activists do not disrupt the funeral. But tribal divisions have | :02:59. | :03:01. | |
been largely set aside and discussions about how to | :03:01. | :03:09. | |
commemorate her life have begun. I should start by asking, are you | :03:09. | :03:17. | |
going to the funeral? Yes. Former leaders and those who work in the | :03:17. | :03:24. | |
House when Mrs Thatcher was Prime Minister have been invited. I think | :03:24. | :03:30. | |
it will be a remarkable occasion and one which I am very honoured to | :03:30. | :03:36. | |
have been asked to take part in. far as I am aware, I shall be | :03:36. | :03:41. | |
attending. I think it is a special thing, particularly as she was the | :03:41. | :03:46. | |
first woman prime minister. The reason I am an MP at all is because | :03:46. | :03:53. | |
she encouraged me to stand. We will come to the legacy. What about you? | :03:53. | :04:02. | |
No. What about the fact that it is a state funeral in all but name? Is | :04:02. | :04:08. | |
it appropriate to that that level of commemoration is being set for | :04:08. | :04:12. | |
Baroness Thatcher? The last Prime Minister to have the funeral of | :04:12. | :04:16. | |
that time was Winston Churchill. You are right, the difference | :04:16. | :04:20. | |
between a state and ceremonial funeral will only be in the eyes of | :04:20. | :04:27. | |
those who hold themselves out to be experts in these matters. To the | :04:27. | :04:30. | |
average viewer watching, the distinction will make no sense | :04:30. | :04:36. | |
whatsoever. But I am an MP because I was very much opposed to the | :04:36. | :04:42. | |
policies of Margaret Thatcher and did my best to argue against them | :04:42. | :04:48. | |
in my own constituency. I was about to say, whatever you think of her | :04:48. | :04:53. | |
policies, the fact of the matter is it was a remarkable achievement for | :04:53. | :04:57. | |
a woman at her time to become leader of the Conservative Party | :04:57. | :05:02. | |
and to become Prime Minister. In addition to that, the courage which | :05:02. | :05:08. | |
she showed in relation to the Falklands, for example, was quite | :05:08. | :05:14. | |
extraordinary. It really was a gamble. If two more missiles had | :05:14. | :05:18. | |
hit any more British warships, the whole thing might have changed. | :05:18. | :05:23. | |
Although I disagreed with much of what she did, she won three | :05:23. | :05:27. | |
consecutive elections and has left her mark on British politics and | :05:27. | :05:33. | |
one way or another, she is entitled to be remembered. Do you think it | :05:33. | :05:37. | |
is the right way to be remembered? I think she is entitled to be | :05:37. | :05:47. | |
:05:47. | :05:49. | ||
remembered. In what way? I think that what is obvious is that she | :05:49. | :05:54. | |
was heavily involved in planning her own funeral, choosing her music | :05:54. | :05:59. | |
and to she wanted to be there. The question this has thrown up is how | :05:59. | :06:03. | |
we honour a former prime ministers. I think this week is a week of | :06:03. | :06:08. | |
respect to the memory of a woman who was very divisive but by any | :06:08. | :06:12. | |
measure was an extraordinary politician. I think then after that | :06:12. | :06:16. | |
we have got to look at this broader question, so in a way the country | :06:16. | :06:21. | |
is not taken by surprise by the way in which a funeral for a former | :06:21. | :06:31. | |
Prime Minister is organised. The fact is, if you have heads of state | :06:31. | :06:35. | |
or senior politicians from countries around the world, it is | :06:35. | :06:40. | |
going to be expensive, because the security will cost a lot, so I | :06:40. | :06:43. | |
think this is a week for respect. The long-term issue is how to mark | :06:43. | :06:49. | |
this kind of moment but as a young woman, I went on more marches | :06:49. | :06:55. | |
against Mrs Thatcher's policies than I can count, I fought two | :06:55. | :06:59. | |
elections as a Labour candidate as she was about to become Prime | :06:59. | :07:04. | |
Minister. The politics were horrible, raw and divisive, but | :07:04. | :07:10. | |
that does not mean that I don't think, in respect of her family and | :07:10. | :07:14. | |
the people who worked closely with her, that she should not be | :07:14. | :07:18. | |
honoured in this way. So John Prescott is wrong to have | :07:18. | :07:24. | |
questioned the amount of money the taxpayer will pay? �10 million? | :07:24. | :07:28. | |
did not see his piece, apparently he wrote it and the headline was | :07:28. | :07:33. | |
rather out of line was what he actually said. We do not know how | :07:33. | :07:38. | |
much this is going to cost. The Thatcher family are apparently | :07:38. | :07:42. | |
making a contribution. We need more transparency. People have got to | :07:43. | :07:47. | |
know what the plan Tsar. The police have agreed to allow an organised | :07:48. | :07:53. | |
protest. I think that is quite right. One of the things that is | :07:54. | :07:58. | |
for sure about Margaret Thatcher is that she believed in freedom of the | :07:58. | :08:01. | |
individual and the freedoms that we have in this country allow people | :08:01. | :08:06. | |
to protest peacefully and if people are going to mark their opposition | :08:06. | :08:11. | |
to a woman who has now passed on, then I hope they will do so and | :08:11. | :08:14. | |
remember the safety and peace of others who are coming to pay their | :08:14. | :08:20. | |
respects, because she was a game change in politics in this country. | :08:20. | :08:26. | |
She moved people from poverty into home-ownership, into wealth sharing | :08:26. | :08:32. | |
and wealth creation, and I do not want to go into her legacy... | :08:32. | :08:37. | |
will talk about that. I think it is fitting that we should mark the | :08:37. | :08:40. | |
longest serving prime minister for 150 years and the first woman to | :08:40. | :08:44. | |
hold that position. The Conservative MP and friend of | :08:44. | :08:50. | |
Baroness Thatcher Bernard Jenkin is on College Green. What is Margaret | :08:50. | :08:54. | |
Thatcher's legacy for you? Wednesday will be a global event. | :08:54. | :09:01. | |
This is not just for domestic consumption. The reason so many | :09:01. | :09:04. | |
heads of state and ambassadors will be attending his because Margaret | :09:04. | :09:14. | |
Thatcher was a global figure and therefore this non-state | :09:14. | :09:18. | |
occasion...! This is a fitting tribute to what most other | :09:18. | :09:21. | |
countries would recognise as an absolutely normal thing to do for a | :09:21. | :09:28. | |
former prime minister. Apparently there have scrim -- been reports in | :09:28. | :09:35. | |
some of the American press that they have been surprised by some of | :09:35. | :09:39. | |
the vitriol that has been expressed in the UK. But many parts of | :09:39. | :09:46. | |
Britain are still hostile to her legacy. One has the highest respect | :09:46. | :09:50. | |
for people who take a different view but it is a tiny minority who | :09:50. | :09:55. | |
are gloating over her death and indeed that is the kind of real | :09:55. | :10:02. | |
personal unpleasantness that she had to put up with so much of, | :10:02. | :10:07. | |
personalisation of the argument, blaming her. There was a protest in | :10:07. | :10:10. | |
Corby on Friday where apparently all the Labour councillors walked | :10:10. | :10:18. | |
out of a council meeting during a minute's silence, and the Labour | :10:18. | :10:23. | |
Party decided to close the steel mill in Corby, because Margaret | :10:23. | :10:26. | |
Thatcher had attracted the Investment, and by the time she | :10:26. | :10:31. | |
left office, unemployment in Corby was back to the national average! | :10:31. | :10:37. | |
That is the real record, not the distorted record. Do you agree that | :10:37. | :10:41. | |
the protests that have been agreed with the police should go ahead and | :10:41. | :10:44. | |
that there should be a balance for respect for the family and people | :10:44. | :10:49. | |
who want to protest peacefully? hope that protesters will respect | :10:49. | :10:54. | |
that a great majority of the nation do want to honour her memory in | :10:54. | :11:00. | |
this very fitting way. There is a balance to be struck. People | :11:00. | :11:06. | |
complaining about the money, she could have sold her private and | :11:06. | :11:10. | |
personal political papers to an American university and a few years | :11:10. | :11:14. | |
ago when she was offered tens of millions of pounds. She did not do | :11:14. | :11:19. | |
that. She gave them to Churchill College for the nation. That is the | :11:19. | :11:24. | |
kind of selfless person that she was. I think people protesting | :11:24. | :11:28. | |
about this funeral on undermining our country abroad. It will be | :11:28. | :11:32. | |
interesting to see the viewing figures. I suspect the world will | :11:32. | :11:36. | |
be watching this funeral and admiring the country and | :11:36. | :11:40. | |
remembering what an incredible political figure she was. What is | :11:40. | :11:47. | |
your view about a library in her honour? This is news to me. I think | :11:47. | :11:52. | |
it is tremendously good idea. If the money can be raised to set up | :11:52. | :11:57. | |
something like that in Westminster, I am sure it will receive an | :11:57. | :12:03. | |
enormous amount of foreign visitors, just as the Churchill Museum under | :12:03. | :12:08. | |
White will receive an enormous amount of visitors -- quite tall. I | :12:08. | :12:13. | |
think she will be a political figure that fascinates historians | :12:13. | :12:19. | |
both home and abroad for hundreds of years to come. Thank you. You | :12:19. | :12:24. | |
are dying to say something. It is interesting, in a way their | :12:25. | :12:30. | |
response illustrates the fact that she was a divisive figure. It is | :12:30. | :12:34. | |
veering between hagiography and hatred and I think it will take | :12:34. | :12:39. | |
some time before history allows us a proper perspective about the | :12:39. | :12:43. | |
contribution that Margaret Thatcher made. Cheryl Gillan rightly says | :12:43. | :12:47. | |
that she allowed people to buy council houses but at the same time | :12:47. | :12:52. | |
she did not allow money to be spent in replacing them and if you are a | :12:52. | :12:56. | |
constituency MP like me, you have had a parade of people in your | :12:56. | :13:02. | |
surgery who would otherwise be entitled to social housing but | :13:02. | :13:08. | |
because 60% of the council houses in my constituency have been sold, | :13:08. | :13:14. | |
they are denied that opportunity. A good policy, but not always with | :13:14. | :13:18. | |
the necessary mitigation. Are you comfortable with the idea of a | :13:18. | :13:22. | |
library in her honour being in the former Liberal Democrat | :13:22. | :13:28. | |
headquarters? I would certainly enjoy the irony of that. There are | :13:28. | :13:32. | |
a lot of good Liberal Democrat ghosts who would halt the | :13:32. | :13:37. | |
Conservative Party for some time in Downing Street! -- who would haunt. | :13:37. | :13:43. | |
You could argue in large parts of Britain the price of her revolution | :13:43. | :13:49. | |
has made the Conservative branch toxic. One of the benefits of | :13:49. | :13:52. | |
having a library and museum in her name, perhaps we can get some | :13:52. | :13:56. | |
balance into the debate because it is terribly polarised and there is | :13:56. | :14:03. | |
a lot of inaccuracies bringing up from this increased and intensive... | :14:04. | :14:10. | |
But on both sides. I think there will be exaggeration but I do think | :14:10. | :14:16. | |
it is important to remember she was a key figure in ending the Cold War. | :14:16. | :14:20. | |
Burn it is right in saying there are many people abroad that | :14:20. | :14:26. | |
actually think that she was an incredible leader for her time -- | :14:26. | :14:34. | |
Bernard. There is no consensus on this. She certainly played a part | :14:34. | :14:38. | |
in the ending of the Cold War but to suggest it was of such pre- | :14:38. | :14:42. | |
eminence, as many people have recently, ignores the fact that the | :14:42. | :14:47. | |
Soviet system was bust and was failing and because it was failing | :14:47. | :14:51. | |
it had to consider alternatives, Gorbachev in particular. We have | :14:51. | :14:58. | |
not got that much longer. Let's talk about winning -- women. There | :14:58. | :15:03. | |
has been a lot of debate about what she did to further the cause of | :15:03. | :15:08. | |
women. She did break the ultimate glass ceiling. Beyond that, do you | :15:08. | :15:15. | |
feel she did much to further the cause of women? No. Her own | :15:15. | :15:19. | |
personal achievement was remarkable but she did not look at the House | :15:19. | :15:24. | |
of Commons and say, this place is unrepresentative of the country, | :15:24. | :15:31. | |
and take steps to introduce positive action as we did in the | :15:31. | :15:35. | |
run-up to 1997, and we saw a transformation in the number of | :15:35. | :15:40. | |
women MPs. No, she was not a feminist. She thought she had to be | :15:40. | :15:50. | |
:15:50. | :15:52. | ||
a better man in a man's and what. - - in a man's world for. I think she | :15:52. | :15:58. | |
saw herself as the best person to do the job. When she was the leader | :15:58. | :16:04. | |
of our party, which was unusual, there were only 4% of MPs of any | :16:04. | :16:09. | |
party that will women and even with the positive discrimination, we are | :16:09. | :16:16. | |
only up to 22%. We have not made that much difference! Labour has. | :16:16. | :16:26. | |
:16:26. | :16:33. | ||
I can only speak personally. She encouraged me personally, at that | :16:33. | :16:38. | |
dinner. Just briefly, before we move on - her legacy, and the | :16:38. | :16:43. | |
amount of time we spend talking about it, it is a difficult legacy | :16:43. | :16:47. | |
for David Cameron, is it not? very difficult for any Prime | :16:47. | :16:51. | |
Minister, following Margaret Thatcher, because she was such an | :16:51. | :16:58. | |
enormous, huge...! We are joined now from College green by George | :16:59. | :17:06. | |
Galloway, the Respect MP, who does not support the funeral | :17:06. | :17:11. | |
arrangements for Wednesday - why not? You have managed to gather | :17:11. | :17:14. | |
together the only three people in the country who think it is all | :17:14. | :17:18. | |
right that we are spending �10 million on the canonisation of this | :17:18. | :17:23. | |
wicked woman, a woman who laid waste to industrial Britain of the | :17:23. | :17:26. | |
North, Scotland and South Wales. have already had the recall of | :17:27. | :17:33. | |
Parliament last week, with MPs being paid up to �3,700 to fly back | :17:33. | :17:37. | |
from their Caribbean holiday, and then fly back to start their | :17:37. | :17:43. | |
holiday again, Jennie totally unnecessary fawning over this woman. | :17:43. | :17:47. | |
And now, they want to cancel Prime Minister's Questions. It is absurd. | :17:47. | :17:51. | |
She was Prime Minister for more than 11 years, she won three | :17:51. | :17:54. | |
general elections, surely she is a big enough political figure, | :17:54. | :18:00. | |
whether you like her or not, to merit such a ceremony? Mr Wilson | :18:00. | :18:04. | |
high of Ristic four general elections, Mr Atlee totally | :18:04. | :18:07. | |
transformed the country in the wake of the Second world War. Neither of | :18:07. | :18:13. | |
those had anything remotely like this, this tidal wave of guff which | :18:13. | :18:23. | |
:18:23. | :18:24. | ||
the country is being forced to listen to, particularly on the BBC. | :18:24. | :18:28. | |
And when we had Ding Dong The Witch Is Dead, you censored it, it was | :18:28. | :18:33. | |
the only way of them expressing how they felt. It is utterly absurd. We | :18:33. | :18:36. | |
would be conducting this conversation in German if it was | :18:36. | :18:40. | |
not for Mr Churchill. He saved the very existence of this country. | :18:40. | :18:44. | |
Well, Mrs Thatcher did her best to destroy what was good about this | :18:44. | :18:48. | |
country, and did destroy more than a third of our manufacturing | :18:48. | :18:53. | |
capacity, reducing us to the state we are in now. People are very | :18:53. | :18:57. | |
angry in Britain, and it is not reflected in your studio, and it is | :18:57. | :19:01. | |
not reflected on the BBC. You want to reflecting it very clearly and | :19:01. | :19:06. | |
loudly... She died one week ago, hundreds of thousands of people | :19:06. | :19:10. | |
have been following me on social media, but I never got one | :19:10. | :19:15. | |
invitation to speak on the BBC. think you will find this is the | :19:15. | :19:18. | |
first programme back after the Easter break, and you are on it, | :19:18. | :19:23. | |
George Galloway. Those sentiments that you have expressed, is there a | :19:23. | :19:27. | |
different time to express those? This is the week that her funeral | :19:27. | :19:33. | |
is taking place, so is this not a time to rise above that? That is | :19:33. | :19:38. | |
what people said last Monday. Now, it is this Monday. How long have we | :19:38. | :19:43. | |
got to observe this fate silence on the record of a woman who caused | :19:44. | :19:50. | |
such destruction in this country? The the Tories were reduced to zero | :19:50. | :19:55. | |
MPs in Scotland. They are branded utterly poisonous in large parts of | :19:55. | :20:01. | |
the North. They lost her deposit against me in the by-election just | :20:01. | :20:06. | |
a few weeks ago. Is there a difference, George Galloway, | :20:06. | :20:09. | |
because Tessa Jowell and Menzies Campbell have stated very clearly | :20:09. | :20:14. | |
that they disagree with her policies, and Tessa Jowell went on | :20:14. | :20:18. | |
marches against a policies - is this a difference between the way | :20:18. | :20:22. | |
you express your outrage and disgust, whether it is done in a | :20:22. | :20:26. | |
more polite way just for this week, I am just asking, or whether you do | :20:26. | :20:32. | |
it in the way that you have expressed it? Was Mrs Thatcher | :20:32. | :20:35. | |
polite about the miners when she destroyed their communities, | :20:35. | :20:41. | |
leaving them in social slag heaps of vice and idleness? Was she | :20:41. | :20:45. | |
polite to the pit workers when she destroyed them? She laid waste to | :20:45. | :20:50. | |
this country. Spare me the centre many about politeness. There are | :20:50. | :20:56. | |
millions of people in this country who hate the very word Thatcher, | :20:56. | :21:00. | |
and Thatcherism continues until this very day. George Galloway, I | :21:00. | :21:04. | |
think we did try to get hold of you earlier for a programme, but thank | :21:04. | :21:09. | |
you for appearing today. Your response to that, Cheryl Gillan? | :21:09. | :21:13. | |
would take him more seriously if he appeared in Yes. More often. I | :21:13. | :21:20. | |
think he has voted in 13% of our divisions, so he does not use the | :21:20. | :21:30. | |
:21:30. | :21:42. | ||
arena for which he was elected. seems to me, where George Galloway | :21:42. | :21:48. | |
has made an interesting point, but which may be challenged, is, why | :21:48. | :21:52. | |
was there not this amazing outburst when Mrs Thatcher stepped down? | :21:52. | :21:56. | |
That was the time when it was proper to have reflect on the | :21:56. | :22:00. | |
political consequences of her prime ministership. I have already said | :22:00. | :22:04. | |
that I think history will give us a much better impression of the | :22:04. | :22:08. | |
success or failure of her policies. But for the moment, in this | :22:08. | :22:12. | |
particular week, I think it is legitimate to expect that there | :22:12. | :22:15. | |
should be a degree of respect provided to someone who was, | :22:15. | :22:20. | |
whatever you think of her policies, a dominant political figure. I take | :22:20. | :22:24. | |
issue with some notion that she ended the Cold War, and everything | :22:24. | :22:31. | |
that happened after and during her time, but the fact of the matter is | :22:31. | :22:34. | |
that like it or lump it, she was a dominant figure for a long time in | :22:34. | :22:42. | |
British politics. Done well do you understand the anger expressed by | :22:42. | :22:49. | |
George Galloway...? Of course I do, but I think Mrs Thatcher did divide | :22:49. | :22:53. | |
the country. She governed for the south, she did not govern for the | :22:53. | :22:57. | |
north. In that respect, the communities that were laid waste, | :22:57. | :23:01. | |
and some of which have never recovered, are shown in the faces | :23:01. | :23:05. | |
of those older people, who have come down to London to take part in | :23:05. | :23:10. | |
demonstrations over the weekend. But the fact is, you do not have to | :23:10. | :23:15. | |
pretend that you agreed with her, or you do not have to pretend that | :23:15. | :23:21. | |
there is still anger about what she did, to say that this is a week in | :23:21. | :23:28. | |
which you honour and pay respect to a leader of our country who has | :23:28. | :23:34. | |
died. I think that is absolutely right. There is so much I disagree | :23:34. | :23:37. | |
with with Tony Blair and about the policies of the last Labour | :23:37. | :23:40. | |
government, but I have respect that the man was our last prime | :23:40. | :23:44. | |
ministers, and that Labour were in power for that time. I just think | :23:44. | :23:50. | |
that she has been wilfully misinterpreted in many areas. She | :23:50. | :23:54. | |
said that we have to look at jobs for the future, which I think is | :23:54. | :23:57. | |
genuinely what she was trying to do. As we have been hearing, MPs are | :23:57. | :24:03. | |
back for their -- from their Easter break. They are gearing up for a | :24:03. | :24:07. | |
big event next month, the local elections, on the 2nd May. So, what | :24:07. | :24:11. | |
is happening? There will be elections for 27 county councils, | :24:11. | :24:15. | |
elections for 27 county councils, seven unitary authorities, and two | :24:15. | :24:19. | |
mayoral elections. Altogether, almost 2,500 seats are being | :24:19. | :24:24. | |
contested. It is one of the last major tests of the political | :24:24. | :24:27. | |
weather ahead of the general election in 2015. The last time | :24:27. | :24:31. | |
these seats were up for grabs was in 2009, when Gordon Brown was | :24:31. | :24:36. | |
Prime Minister. Then, the estimated national equivalent share of the | :24:36. | :24:43. | |
vote had the Conservatives on 35%... Four years on, and a change of | :24:43. | :24:51. | |
government later, how will each of the party's Fair? And what of UKIP? | :24:51. | :25:01. | |
:25:01. | :25:02. | ||
They come second at the Eastleigh by-election. -- parties fare? We | :25:02. | :25:06. | |
can now speak to Professor John Curtis, who knows everything there | :25:06. | :25:10. | |
is to know about local elections. - is to know about local elections. - | :25:10. | :25:13. | |
- Professor John Curtice. The warning about losing 500 seats, is | :25:13. | :25:20. | |
that a realistic estimate? I think that is probably a realistic | :25:20. | :25:25. | |
estimate, although possibly a bit on the high side. One thing to bear | :25:25. | :25:34. | |
in mind is that these seats, before 2009, they were fought on general | :25:34. | :25:40. | |
election day in 2005, which gives us a clear baseline. In 2009, the | :25:40. | :25:45. | |
Tories won around 350 more seats than they did in 2005. And of | :25:45. | :25:50. | |
course, in 2005, they lost the general election. So, losses on | :25:50. | :25:54. | |
that scale are not to be unexpected. But bear in mind that for the most | :25:54. | :25:57. | |
part, the Conservatives will be facing primarily the Liberal | :25:57. | :26:00. | |
Democrats as their opponents, not Labour. Given that the Liberal | :26:00. | :26:04. | |
Democrats are doing relatively badly in the polls as well, the | :26:04. | :26:07. | |
scale of the Conservative losses probably should not be as high as | :26:07. | :26:11. | |
500. But certainly losses around the 350 mark would not be | :26:11. | :26:15. | |
unexpected. That does not mean to say that the Conservatives are | :26:15. | :26:19. | |
doing well if they lose 350 seats, it will simply confirm the message | :26:19. | :26:22. | |
of the opinion polls that they are not terribly popular Ronnie Moore. | :26:22. | :26:28. | |
You have mentioned that they will be a pop -- up against the Liberal | :26:28. | :26:30. | |
Democrats in the county council elections, but will a certain | :26:30. | :26:34. | |
number of votes go to UKIP? We will be looking at how far the | :26:34. | :26:38. | |
Conservatives are losing to UKIP, as you say. There has already been | :26:38. | :26:45. | |
a substantial UKIP intervention in local elections recently. This is | :26:45. | :26:48. | |
the first time where UKIP will be fighting effectively on a | :26:48. | :26:52. | |
nationwide scale. We have been seeing surprising support for UKIP, | :26:52. | :26:57. | |
going above 10% in the opinion polls, and it seems to becoming | :26:57. | :26:59. | |
disproportionately from the Conservatives. That said, UKIP have | :26:59. | :27:04. | |
a bit of a problem, which is, because the last elections were in | :27:04. | :27:08. | |
2009, it was on the same day as the European elections, when UKIP did | :27:08. | :27:12. | |
extraordinarily well. And they did rather well in the 2009 local | :27:12. | :27:17. | |
elections as well. So, where UKIP stood last time, the extent of the | :27:17. | :27:21. | |
progress they make this time might not be as great as you might | :27:21. | :27:29. | |
anticipate from the opinion polls. But the Conservatives will | :27:29. | :27:34. | |
certainly have reason for concern. One thing we may well not get from | :27:34. | :27:37. | |
the headline results on the night is the degree to which UKIP | :27:37. | :27:43. | |
actually manage to make an advance. Their problem is that there vote is | :27:43. | :27:47. | |
so geographically unevenly spread, that they struggle to turn thugs | :27:47. | :27:54. | |
into seats. Even in 2009, they were getting 15% of the vote on average, | :27:54. | :28:01. | |
but they only won 15 seats. -- evenly spread. Just briefly on | :28:01. | :28:08. | |
Labour, a disaster has been forecast for them... Yes, given | :28:08. | :28:13. | |
that they won 350 more seats in 2005 than they did in 2009, and | :28:13. | :28:16. | |
given that the Liberal Democrats are now in trouble as well as the | :28:16. | :28:21. | |
Conservatives, frankly, it is the Labour Party whose advance should | :28:21. | :28:26. | |
be towards the 500 mark, even if the Conservative losses are not on | :28:26. | :28:30. | |
that scale. I think Labour have been vastly underselling what they | :28:30. | :28:37. | |
might manage to achieve. UKIP's Councillor Diane James, who came | :28:37. | :28:40. | |
second in the Eastleigh by-election, joins us now. First of all, coming | :28:40. | :28:46. | |
to you, Cheryl Gillan, any loss of 500 seats would be dreadful, would | :28:46. | :28:53. | |
it not? It is worth remembering that we were at 42% in the polls | :28:53. | :28:56. | |
last time, defending virtually every single council which is | :28:56. | :29:01. | |
coming up. I think Labour is defending one. So we would expect | :29:01. | :29:06. | |
Labour to do well. I think midterm, with the kind of press and issues | :29:06. | :29:09. | |
that have been surrounding the Government and the coalition | :29:09. | :29:14. | |
government, we are not expecting to do brilliantly. When you say the | :29:14. | :29:17. | |
press, you mean the message is not getting through, people are not | :29:18. | :29:22. | |
convinced by the economic policies? Yes, I think there is a great deal | :29:22. | :29:25. | |
of frustration with the fact that the economy has not been recovering | :29:25. | :29:32. | |
as fast as we expected.. And people have been blaming you... I think | :29:32. | :29:35. | |
people will speak in the ballot box. But don't forget, you are moving | :29:35. | :29:39. | |
from being at the height of your popularity, at the top of your tree, | :29:39. | :29:47. | |
and Labour has only got 255 seats to defend. On the Liberal Democrats, | :29:47. | :29:51. | |
we know what the polls have been saying for the last year or so, but | :29:52. | :29:59. | |
of course, Eastleigh... You took the words out of your mouth -- out | :29:59. | :30:06. | |
of my mouth. What is going to be a good result for you? I am not going | :30:06. | :30:10. | |
to hazard a guess about that. People oversell losses and | :30:10. | :30:16. | |
undersell the gains, it is part of the tradition. So, are you going to | :30:16. | :30:23. | |
oversell the gains for us?! We have to do a bit of analysis regarding | :30:23. | :30:27. | |
Eastleigh. It was won by a local candidate, with a very strong | :30:27. | :30:34. | |
record as a local councillor, and why, because he got things done. | :30:34. | :30:41. | |
The point is that where the Liberal Democrats are not closing libraries, | :30:41. | :30:44. | |
for example, they are representing local people in a way which local | :30:44. | :30:49. | |
people find attractive, and doing their best to maintain services, to | :30:49. | :30:53. | |
maintain the environment, things have that kind, and these are local | :30:53. | :30:57. | |
elections, and people tend to vote for local issues. Sir, you are | :30:57. | :31:04. | |
quite optimistic. It is always qualified optimism, because | :31:04. | :31:11. | |
otherwise people think you're being complacent. I am not. But if our | :31:11. | :31:14. | |
councillors get out and knock on the doors as is necessary, then I | :31:14. | :31:19. | |
expect them to do well. That could be worrying for you, because UKIP | :31:19. | :31:22. | |
are hoping to capitalise on these local elections, and you need to do | :31:22. | :31:25. | |
so, to make some kind of breakthrough in terms of the | :31:25. | :31:28. | |
numbers of council seats that you have, but if the Liberal Democrats | :31:29. | :31:34. | |
are feeling a bit gung-ho about their prospects, then it could be | :31:34. | :31:44. | |
:31:44. | :31:52. | ||
The Liberal Democrats brought in people from all across the country | :31:52. | :31:59. | |
for that by-elections. We were understanding that 1,000 Liberal- | :31:59. | :32:03. | |
Democrats were there on the doorstep. That is fine. If you look | :32:03. | :32:10. | |
at the fact that only the postal vote won the Liberal Democrats... | :32:10. | :32:14. | |
The point is the Lib Dems do not have that level of resources to | :32:14. | :32:19. | |
deploy right across the country. When it comes down to it, UKIP has | :32:20. | :32:24. | |
shown a 40% increase in membership, we have tripled the number of | :32:24. | :32:28. | |
candidates we are fielding and we have had a series of consecutive | :32:28. | :32:35. | |
very good results in by-elections. But there is a difference in | :32:35. | :32:41. | |
translating that into actual seats, actual winning. OK, but still the | :32:41. | :32:46. | |
voters were saying, they've voted for instance the Liberal Democrats | :32:46. | :32:52. | |
in the general election, they got a Conservative-Liberal Democrat | :32:52. | :32:58. | |
coalition, and they do not like its. For them, the one party that has | :32:58. | :33:03. | |
been clear and consistent with its messages, listening to people, it | :33:03. | :33:08. | |
is UKIP. How worried are you about UKIP? I have always said you need | :33:08. | :33:15. | |
to take them seriously. When they have 16% of the vote, any party | :33:15. | :33:20. | |
with that percentage you need to take seriously. But if we take | :33:20. | :33:25. | |
their local campaign in Amersham, they are saying to everybody they | :33:25. | :33:29. | |
can stop the high-speed railway that is about to drive through my | :33:29. | :33:35. | |
constituency, which is actually quite wrong. They do not stand a | :33:35. | :33:42. | |
hope of stopping it. They will win some votes because of that, I am | :33:42. | :33:48. | |
sure, because people will be taken in by that message. I think that is | :33:48. | :33:57. | |
the opportunity -- opportunism that UKIP are grabbing on to. UKIP is | :33:57. | :34:02. | |
trying to capitalise on something locally but quite dishonestly in my | :34:02. | :34:07. | |
view for the simple reason that in their own manifesto they were | :34:07. | :34:14. | |
backing high-speed rail two years ago. We have said a number of times | :34:14. | :34:21. | |
we are against high-speed rail... Hold on, please. I had been asked a | :34:21. | :34:26. | |
question. We want to see the economics. None of that is there. | :34:26. | :34:31. | |
We have an MP that on one hand said she was going to vote against | :34:31. | :34:37. | |
something and we then resigned as an MP, did not do that, is taken... | :34:37. | :34:42. | |
You need to check your facts. are the MP for an airy yet got a | :34:42. | :34:48. | |
book I have consistently stood Against this, as have every single | :34:48. | :34:57. | |
one of our candidates. -- You are the MP for this area. It is | :34:57. | :35:02. | |
dishonest for UKIP. To try to come and give false messages in my area | :35:02. | :35:06. | |
is quite wrong. It is more disappointing that the | :35:06. | :35:09. | |
Conservatives say one thing and you have a group within your own party | :35:09. | :35:16. | |
that will not support it. Tony Blair has told the party it needs | :35:16. | :35:22. | |
to get out of its comfort zone. Is that helpful just before local | :35:22. | :35:28. | |
elections? It is what Labour is doing. Why did Tony Blair need to | :35:28. | :35:33. | |
say it then? We will come on to that. He is making a contribution | :35:33. | :35:38. | |
to the debate. Maybe the manner was not ideal but there was a real | :35:38. | :35:43. | |
substance in what he had to say and I hope people will take that | :35:43. | :35:47. | |
seriously in a constructive spirit in which it is meant. Labour is not | :35:47. | :35:54. | |
in a comfort zone. We are not a party of protest. We have a | :35:54. | :35:58. | |
vigorous campaign in these local elections. UKIP is capturing the | :35:58. | :36:02. | |
anti-politics mood of the moment, which is why Labour MPs are going | :36:02. | :36:06. | |
around the country and listening to what people have to say and | :36:06. | :36:11. | |
ensuring that our election campaign for the County Council elections | :36:12. | :36:14. | |
response to the bread-and-butter issues that people are concerned | :36:14. | :36:20. | |
about. Thank you. It is the start of another political term. Let's | :36:20. | :36:24. | |
have a look at the week ahead in Westminster. A new cap on benefit | :36:24. | :36:27. | |
payments begins today, initially in four London boroughs and then | :36:27. | :36:30. | |
across Britain over the summer. The government hopes it will save �110 | :36:30. | :36:36. | |
million a year. Also today, we are expecting the writ to be moved for | :36:36. | :36:38. | |
the South Shields by-election, which is now likely to take place | :36:38. | :36:43. | |
on May 2nd. It was triggered by the departure of former Labour Foreign | :36:43. | :36:45. | |
Secretary, David Miliband. On Tuesday, the coalition faces a | :36:45. | :36:49. | |
revolt by MPs from both halves as they vote on the relaxation of | :36:49. | :36:52. | |
planning rules in the Growth and Infrastructure Bill. If passed, it | :36:52. | :36:59. | |
would make it easier to build conservatories and extensions. On | :36:59. | :37:02. | |
Wednesday, the funeral of Lady Thatcher takes place at St Paul's | :37:02. | :37:06. | |
Cathedral. It is expected that PMQs will be cancelled. And on Friday, | :37:06. | :37:09. | |
the Conservative Party's local election campaign begins. Joining | :37:09. | :37:12. | |
me to discuss the week ahead are Pippa Crerar from the London | :37:12. | :37:18. | |
Evening Standard and the Mirror's James Lyons. A different week, a | :37:18. | :37:26. | |
different feel. They retrieved. Westminster seems to be very sombre | :37:26. | :37:32. | |
-- that is very true. Lots of people in the country do not seem | :37:32. | :37:36. | |
happy with the fact that �10 million will be spent on Lady | :37:36. | :37:40. | |
Thatcher's funeral. I was in Glasgow at the weekend, and | :37:40. | :37:48. | |
although the streets were not packed with anti-Thatcher protests, | :37:48. | :37:53. | |
the overwhelming majority of people felt this was not the best way to | :37:53. | :37:57. | |
commemorate her. David Cameron would do well to recognise that. He | :37:57. | :38:02. | |
seems to be suggesting that everyone lit in her shadow, for and | :38:02. | :38:12. | |
:38:12. | :38:13. | ||
against. He should be aware of how toxic her memory is in large parts | :38:13. | :38:20. | |
of the UK. She was extremely divisive but where I would part | :38:20. | :38:24. | |
company is the idea that the Prime Minister is being measured in his | :38:24. | :38:29. | |
remarks. We have seen him claiming that she rescued Britain. A lot of | :38:29. | :38:34. | |
people would disagree with that. It is understandable there will be | :38:34. | :38:39. | |
protests when the funeral is put on. In terms of welfare, that will | :38:39. | :38:45. | |
obviously be one of the hallmarks of this government. We have this | :38:45. | :38:49. | |
pilots -- pilot scheme that is starting. The government argues it | :38:49. | :38:55. | |
is on the right side of the argument of the public. Certainly | :38:55. | :39:02. | |
talking about this, the Conservatives recognise this is a | :39:02. | :39:07. | |
divisive issue in the public and there does seem to be a lot of | :39:07. | :39:12. | |
public support for the welfare cap in particular. It has only just | :39:12. | :39:17. | |
come in today. Four London boroughs, so time will tell what impact it | :39:17. | :39:23. | |
has on the ground. 4,000 households in London will be tested as it were | :39:23. | :39:28. | |
so we will be watching very closely to see its families with children | :39:28. | :39:32. | |
are particularly targeted and whether you end up having families | :39:32. | :39:38. | |
having to move out. For many Conservatives, this is a touchstone | :39:38. | :39:42. | |
issue and one where they can stand out from Labour, who have not | :39:42. | :39:47. | |
really taken the same view. They are obviously opposing the welfare | :39:47. | :39:55. | |
changes. That could be very difficult, James, For Ed Miliband. | :39:55. | :40:00. | |
George Osborne seems -- sees welfare as a trap to put Ed | :40:00. | :40:04. | |
Miliband into, rather than something that affects millions of | :40:04. | :40:10. | |
ordinary people. He claims that welfare only goes to the shirkers, | :40:10. | :40:15. | |
and this claim has fallen apart already. Most of the pain of these | :40:15. | :40:19. | |
benefit cuts will be falling on working people. We have a real | :40:19. | :40:27. | |
problem in this country. The government says it wants to make | :40:27. | :40:31. | |
work pay but today it put the minimum wage up by 12p which is a | :40:31. | :40:36. | |
real terms cut. I would like to see them do something where they | :40:36. | :40:41. | |
actually do make work pay without inflicting pain on working for | :40:41. | :40:47. | |
families. But Labour also is upset about the amount spent on welfare. | :40:47. | :40:52. | |
They agree it is not working. have to be careful at taking the | :40:53. | :40:57. | |
government at face value. We have seen over the weekend that Iain | :40:57. | :41:01. | |
Duncan-Smith has been claiming that the benefits cap is already working. | :41:01. | :41:09. | |
In fact, the government's own analysis shows no such thing and he | :41:09. | :41:13. | |
has been reported to the statistics watchdog today. We have to be | :41:13. | :41:18. | |
careful about falling for these ploys put out by the government. | :41:19. | :41:22. | |
There will be stories a great injustice once the pilot is under | :41:22. | :41:27. | |
way and once it is rolled out. There will be people who were | :41:27. | :41:34. | |
genuinely fine things difficult. course. -- find things difficult. | :41:34. | :41:38. | |
The vast majority will impact on people in work and even those who | :41:38. | :41:43. | |
are not to be this safety net and if it is not there, there will be | :41:43. | :41:48. | |
people slipping through. We saw extreme examples of welfare abuse | :41:48. | :41:53. | |
in the run-up to this, at which are not widespread at all, but now we | :41:53. | :41:57. | |
will also see extreme examples of where poverty has been inflicted on | :41:57. | :42:01. | |
people. The reality for most is probably somewhere in the middle | :42:01. | :42:05. | |
but we cannot ignore the fact there will be thousands and thousands of | :42:05. | :42:09. | |
people who want to work or who are in work who will find it very hard | :42:09. | :42:13. | |
from now on. So, as we have been hearing, the | :42:13. | :42:15. | |
government's cap on benefits starts in four London boroughs today | :42:16. | :42:18. | |
before being rolled out across England, Wales and Scotland over | :42:18. | :42:22. | |
the summer. 40,000 households will see their benefits cut as part of | :42:22. | :42:29. | |
the drive to reduce public spending. The debate about benefits dominated | :42:29. | :42:33. | |
much of the Easter recess. So we decided to send Giles out with some | :42:33. | :42:35. | |
multi-coloured balls to test the mood of the nation. | :42:35. | :42:40. | |
Politicians seem keen for us to have this welfare debate, so why | :42:40. | :42:45. | |
not have it now, in Gravesend. Is the benefits system OK or a soft | :42:45. | :42:55. | |
:42:55. | :42:55. | ||
It seems to be that everybody is getting benefits apart from me! | :42:55. | :43:00. | |
They want to get out of the office, find the drugs and the drug users | :43:00. | :43:06. | |
and take away their benefits. you think a lot of scrunching? | :43:06. | :43:12. | |
few. But the few makes it worse for the ones who really need it. | :43:12. | :43:21. | |
think we just saw one of the few, don't you? Yes! This country should | :43:21. | :43:27. | |
come first. Put their own before others. People get offered too much | :43:27. | :43:33. | |
too early. They don't have to work for it. It is clear in Gravesend | :43:33. | :43:37. | |
which way the wind is blowing but what is interesting is the reason | :43:37. | :43:42. | |
why. It is going to the wrong people but not me or it is given to | :43:42. | :43:46. | |
others, and by that I mean foreigners, that is definitely | :43:46. | :43:56. | |
:43:56. | :43:56. | ||
coming through. They are targeting us. It is like one naughty child in | :43:56. | :44:01. | |
their class and everybody gets punished. It is too easy for people | :44:01. | :44:07. | |
to get benefits but we have to pay for it all. To say that somebody | :44:07. | :44:12. | |
does not want to work is too simple. Do you feel better that your | :44:12. | :44:18. | |
husband goes to work? Yes, he provides us with an lot. I would | :44:18. | :44:24. | |
rather that than going out on benefits. Now to Chatham. Different | :44:24. | :44:31. | |
town, same question. Different answers? People that are built and | :44:31. | :44:37. | |
stuff, it is fine as it is. -- people that are built. We do not | :44:37. | :44:44. | |
normally do this! My son is an unemployed graduate. I have another | :44:44. | :44:53. | |
unemployed graduate child. Why is it a soft touch? I genuinely have | :44:53. | :45:00. | |
no idea. You just voted without knowing what it was about? Yeah! | :45:00. | :45:04. | |
is a soft touch because my heart and money is going to people who | :45:04. | :45:11. | |
just sit at home. -- hard-earned money. A some people have to take | :45:11. | :45:15. | |
responsibility. The majority of people on benefits do use it | :45:15. | :45:20. | |
properly and they do get a sit in the end. It is a negative | :45:20. | :45:26. | |
stereotype at the moment. People just assume it as being correct. | :45:26. | :45:31. | |
have been asking people and the verdict is clear. Most people in | :45:31. | :45:35. | |
Gravesend and Chatham think that the benefits system is as soft | :45:35. | :45:40. | |
touch. Clearly, too many people think that too many benefit | :45:40. | :45:50. | |
:45:50. | :46:04. | ||
With us now is the Labour MP Simon The people in Rochdale are quite | :46:04. | :46:09. | |
clear that the trust in the welfare system has broken down. They see | :46:09. | :46:13. | |
people on a daily basis who are perceived to be swinging the lead, | :46:13. | :46:18. | |
which is probably true. There are people on benefits who should be in | :46:18. | :46:22. | |
employment, and we need to talk more about the world of work, and | :46:22. | :46:27. | |
less about the issue of simply making cuts to benefits. So, his Ed | :46:27. | :46:32. | |
Miliband out of touch? No, I think he is doing an excellent job, as is | :46:32. | :46:37. | |
Liam Byrne. We are two years away from a general election, and what | :46:37. | :46:41. | |
Labour needs to do is to talk more about the world of work, to talk | :46:41. | :46:44. | |
more about the aspirations of people in terms of work, and talk | :46:44. | :46:50. | |
more about getting people into work. I have seen the lives of people | :46:50. | :46:53. | |
getting transformed through the world of walk. I have never seen | :46:53. | :46:57. | |
people's lives transformed through the welfare state. That's why we | :46:57. | :47:01. | |
need to talk more about the benefits of working. But the Labour | :47:01. | :47:05. | |
Party is struggling to decide its stance on the benefits system. | :47:05. | :47:11. | |
but they have disagreed with the level of the cap, they have not | :47:12. | :47:16. | |
supported the Government in its policies on welfare, so, I ask you | :47:16. | :47:20. | |
again, has Ed Miliband got it wrong? There is no doubt, there is | :47:20. | :47:25. | |
a distinction between what the current government is doing and | :47:25. | :47:28. | |
where Labour stand on this. The Tories are very keen to push people | :47:28. | :47:33. | |
into poverty, and cut benefits. They are not talking about getting | :47:33. | :47:38. | |
people into work, their work programme is failing. I think it is | :47:38. | :47:42. | |
getting about 3.6% of people into employment. It is clearly not | :47:42. | :47:47. | |
working. What we need to do as a party is to devise policies, and we | :47:47. | :47:52. | |
have got two years to do this, which talk about why work is | :47:52. | :48:02. | |
:48:02. | :48:02. | ||
important to people dot dot dot -- important to people... Do you think | :48:02. | :48:06. | |
so far, the Labour Party has been talking about grievances too much, | :48:06. | :48:11. | |
without coming up with positive solutions? Some time ago, Ed | :48:11. | :48:15. | |
Miliband said we needed to have an adult conversation about it. What | :48:15. | :48:19. | |
is going on in the Labour Party is that adult conversation. People are | :48:19. | :48:23. | |
making it quite clear how they want a policy to go in the Labour Party, | :48:23. | :48:27. | |
with regard to benefits. I am saying that we need to talk more | :48:28. | :48:32. | |
about aspirations, more about getting people into employment. The | :48:32. | :48:39. | |
Government has clearly failed to create the jobs that people need. | :48:39. | :48:44. | |
Thank you very much, Simon Danczuk. Tessa Jowell, as Simon Danczuk says, | :48:44. | :48:48. | |
Labour has not been focusing enough on getting people back into work, | :48:48. | :48:52. | |
they have just been focusing on grievances, what do you say to | :48:52. | :48:57. | |
that? I think we have focused a lock on work as the best route out | :48:57. | :49:01. | |
of poverty, the best route out of welfare, and also as the driver for | :49:01. | :49:11. | |
economic growth. Let me ask Cheryl Gillan a question - the �100 job | :49:11. | :49:15. | |
grant, for somebody leaving benefits and moving into work, has | :49:15. | :49:21. | |
been discontinued. Also, the �250 deposit on child care, to enable | :49:21. | :49:26. | |
people to pay for child care when they first start work, and thirdly, | :49:27. | :49:31. | |
the howling -- the housing benefit rollover, to cover the transition | :49:31. | :49:36. | |
from benefit to work. This is where this kind of policy is tested | :49:36. | :49:41. | |
against the rhetoric. We know that getting people into work is the way | :49:41. | :49:45. | |
to reduce the welfare bill and the way in which we can get the economy | :49:45. | :49:49. | |
growing. But what the Government is doing is to rely on heavy rhetoric, | :49:49. | :49:53. | |
without looking at the impact on individual cases, and without | :49:53. | :49:57. | |
putting in place the detailed mechanisms to actually enable | :49:57. | :50:04. | |
people in the JobCentre to make that transition. Is �26,000 a year | :50:04. | :50:11. | |
enough for a family to live on? broader problem is that 49% of the | :50:11. | :50:16. | |
families affected by the benefit cap our family is in London, where, | :50:16. | :50:21. | |
as everybody knows, housing is other costs, like travel, are | :50:21. | :50:28. | |
higher. Would you back that cap? Yes, we would, but we argued | :50:28. | :50:31. | |
strongly for a differential level to reflect the additional cost of | :50:31. | :50:37. | |
living in London. What do you say to that? First of all, Tessa Jowell, | :50:37. | :50:42. | |
like me, agrees that the best way off benefits, for people to get | :50:42. | :50:47. | |
self-respect, is to get them into work. To be fair, business and | :50:47. | :50:51. | |
industry in this country since we have come in has created more than | :50:51. | :51:00. | |
1.2 5 million jobs on top of what we inherited. Largely part-time. | :51:00. | :51:03. | |
they are not largely part-time. Labour said they agreed with the | :51:03. | :51:11. | |
cap. And I agree entirely that if you are going to be earning the | :51:11. | :51:15. | |
equivalent of �35,000 before tax, I do not know how many staff you have | :51:15. | :51:21. | |
got on your Parliamentary Staff under 25,000 -- under �35,000, but | :51:22. | :51:26. | |
that �26,000 cap on benefit would be reasonable. Labour have also | :51:26. | :51:30. | |
said that they believe in a regional cap. This means that | :51:30. | :51:38. | |
people in Rochdale, under Labour policies, would have even less. | :51:38. | :51:42. | |
Apart from the principle that the values of welfare are universal | :51:42. | :51:47. | |
across the country. But are they enough for a family in London to | :51:47. | :51:56. | |
live on? You have got to look at it as being equivalent to �35,000. A | :51:56. | :51:59. | |
lot of people in my constituency would be delighted to believe that | :51:59. | :52:04. | |
they could take home �25,000, because at the moment, they do not. | :52:04. | :52:10. | |
Unfortunately, like everybody else, they have to take alterations, cuts, | :52:11. | :52:15. | |
even, in their standard of living. Tessa Jowell's position, that of | :52:15. | :52:25. | |
:52:25. | :52:29. | ||
the Labour Party, would be rather better if they had not voted | :52:29. | :52:34. | |
against every proposal. Name one that they have voted in favour of. | :52:34. | :52:37. | |
8 comes back to the initial question, that Labour is just | :52:37. | :52:40. | |
voting against everything which is proposed, and is not coming up with | :52:40. | :52:47. | |
its own proposals. For instance, why did we vote against the one% | :52:47. | :52:54. | |
increase in benefit payments? -- the 1% increase. If you are a young | :52:54. | :53:00. | |
person aged between 18 and 24, and your benefit is going to go up from | :53:00. | :53:06. | |
�54 to �55, at the same time that you are reducing the top rate of | :53:06. | :53:14. | |
tax for millionaires, it is just not fair. You have got to make | :53:14. | :53:17. | |
these reform as practicable and workable. But you want the welfare | :53:17. | :53:23. | |
bill to come down. Of course. One way to do that is to increase the | :53:23. | :53:27. | |
number of people in work, and the other way is to increased towards | :53:27. | :53:33. | |
an amount, a living wage, which people can have coming in. Do you | :53:33. | :53:38. | |
agree there are people on benefits who could be working? I'm sure | :53:38. | :53:45. | |
there are, but I believe they are a minority. What I think has happened | :53:45. | :53:50. | |
is that there has been an extremely successful campaign of denigration | :53:50. | :53:55. | |
of people who have relied for a period of time on benefits, but | :53:55. | :54:04. | |
really want to get into work. Health, education and defence total | :54:04. | :54:14. | |
:54:14. | :54:17. | ||
less than the total welfare bill. The welfare bill... We have done | :54:17. | :54:21. | |
very well by pensioners, because they are perceived, with | :54:21. | :54:25. | |
justification, as among the most vulnerable. I wish we could go on | :54:25. | :54:29. | |
paying as much as we do at the moment, but the factor of the | :54:29. | :54:35. | |
matter is that there has to be a reduction in the welfare bill. If | :54:35. | :54:38. | |
Labour was as enthusiastic about bringing it down as it appears to | :54:38. | :54:46. | |
be, then it would be coming forward with positive solutions. Now, spare | :54:46. | :54:51. | |
a thought for poor Ed Miliband. He was probably hoping for a quiet | :54:51. | :54:55. | |
Easter holiday, but he broke his wrist, and he is probably suffering | :54:55. | :54:58. | |
from earache, because it seems everybody has been offering him | :54:58. | :55:02. | |
advice about how to govern the Labour Party. First, Tony Blair | :55:02. | :55:06. | |
popped up, in the New Statesman, to say that the guiding principle | :55:06. | :55:16. | |
:55:16. | :55:19. | ||
should be... Then, former Home Secretary John Reid chimed in... | :55:19. | :55:24. | |
Meanwhile, another former Home Secretary, David Blunkett, also | :55:24. | :55:34. | |
:55:34. | :55:36. | ||
waded in... Alan Milburn, Peter Mandelson, and even our guest Tessa | :55:36. | :55:43. | |
Jowell have jumped on the bandwagon. Is this advice right? Back-kick | :55:43. | :55:53. | |
:55:53. | :55:53. | ||
this is the march of the old lags. Tony Blair won three elections, and | :55:53. | :55:57. | |
he published what I think lots of people think was a very good | :55:57. | :56:05. | |
analysis of the way forward for Labour. But if you're a former | :56:05. | :56:11. | |
Prime Minister, you cannot blind side. And if you are a former Prime | :56:12. | :56:15. | |
Minister who packs the punch that he does, then, the important thing | :56:15. | :56:20. | |
is to be part of the solution, never to become part of the problem. | :56:20. | :56:26. | |
I think he would accept that. It is also wrong to suggest that we are | :56:26. | :56:30. | |
simply a party of protest. In a sense, we have to engage with the | :56:30. | :56:36. | |
anger that people feel, as we knock on doors day-in, day-out. Solutions | :56:37. | :56:41. | |
are being put forward. I have offered you some this morning. And | :56:41. | :56:45. | |
there are many more in the locker. Did he need the advice? Ed Miliband | :56:45. | :56:50. | |
is a very open-minded person, the talks to Tony Blair, and values | :56:50. | :56:56. | |
what he has to say. But ultimately, Ed Miliband is now the leader of | :56:56. | :57:06. | |
:57:06. | :57:10. | ||
the Labour Party, and he will take his own council. -- counsel. Ed | :57:10. | :57:17. | |
Miliband is actually the product of the unions. You cannot say that! | :57:17. | :57:20. | |
think he will always be slightly unpopular with the rest of his own | :57:20. | :57:30. | |
:57:30. | :57:40. | ||
party. I knew he was going to talk to me privately. Former leaders and | :57:40. | :57:46. | |
former prime ministers, former ministers, they have got a duty to | :57:46. | :57:50. | |
the party, which allows them to occupy these positions. One way in | :57:50. | :57:54. | |
which they can do that is by offering advice in private, and | :57:54. | :58:02. | |
every now and again, you can have a chat with your former leader. But I | :58:02. | :58:06. | |
would certainly not be writing an article which, by implication, | :58:06. | :58:10. | |
perhaps not explicit, but by implication, attacked the direction | :58:10. | :58:15. | |
in which he is leading his party. He has got a point, was it right | :58:15. | :58:19. | |
for Tony Blair, and the others, to be tears of -- to be so public? | :58:19. | :58:22. | |
think Tony himself would expect that it could have been handled | :58:22. | :58:32. | |
better. But that does not mean that we should back away from the | :58:32. | :58:39. | |
wrote, the questions that he asked, to which there are answers. It is | :58:39. | :58:45. | |
not true that there are not answers. They will meet and talk this week. | :58:45. | :58:50. |