16/04/2013 Daily Politics


16/04/2013

Andrew Neil is joined by free speech campaigner John Kampfner with all the main political news of the day and the latest on the Boston bombing.


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Transcript


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Afternoon. Welcome to the Daily Three dead and more than 140

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injured, many critically, in two explosions at the Boston Marathon.

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We will have the latest on events there and what it means for the

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Thatcher funeral and the London Marathon here.

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The government wants to get builders building, allowing house

:00:59.:01:03.

extensions of up to 26 feet without planning permission. But their own

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MPs are trying to knock down their proposals.

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An end to scenes like this in Britain's big tops? The government

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brings forward a bill to ban the use wild animals in circuses.

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And royalty, politicians and celebs - we will look at who will be

:01:19.:01:29.
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rubbing shoulders at Margaret All that in the next hour. With us

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for the duration, John Kampfner, journalist and campaigner on free

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speech. We could be doing with having a bit free speech, it is

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good to have you. Appalling images from Boston last night after two

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blasts near the finish line of the Boston Marathon. Three people were

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killed including an eight-year-old boy. Many others are very seriously

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injured. One policeman said grimly than some of those had run the

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marathon no longer have their legs. There are also reports that two

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other unexploded devices were found and disabled. But that is

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unconfirmed. It is the most serious terrorist attack on the US mainland

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since the 9/11 attacks. President Obama addressed the nation from the

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White House last night. We still do not know who did this or wife.

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People should not jump to conclusions before we have the

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facts but make no mistakes, we will get to the bottom of this and we

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will find out to do this, we will find out why they do this. Any

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responsible individuals, any responsible groups, will feel the

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full weight of justice. It was clear lap the federal government

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still had no idea what was behind it and that seems to be the

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situation this morning -- it was clear then that the federal

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government. A few minutes ago, I spoke to Laura

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Trevelyan in Boston. I started by asking her about those injured in

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the explosions. That is what is so horrific. Especially it took so

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many of the athletes I have spoken to -- especially to so many. This

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is the pinnacle of their athletic achievement, they train for years

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in many occasions, and to have people who were taking part and

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cheering them on, to have them robbed of their limbs, to have

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amputations taking place, somebody said to me he came from Canada who

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finished in under three hours, he said, this strikes at the very core

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of what we are and we are reeling. And still no firm leads as I

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understand it as to who was behind this? That is the question that

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that is being asked across America, who could have done this and why?

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We have another briefing from the police this morning. We were told

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by the leading FBI agent yesterday that this is a potential terrorist

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investigation. Whether that means home-grown terrorists,

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international extremists, we do not know, and nothing is being said

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publicly at the moment. But there are some interesting background

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points to note on the domestic front, which is that no official in

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forces have been noting that this is traditionally a big week for

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anti-government groups in America. -- Bill Law enforcement officials.

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We are coming up to the anniversary of the Oklahoma bombing and the

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Columbine massacre. But this is conjecture. What we have is the

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death of three people and well over 100 injured. There are some reports

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that two other bombs were discovered and disabled but we have

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not been able to confirm these reports. Do you have anything on

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that? That was asked last night when the police gave a press

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conference and they said they would not comment on whether they had

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found any other explosive devices. One report said the police had

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found five unexploded devices but that was very quickly backtracked

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on. As so often is the case in the aftermath, the information is

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contradictory, the picture is confusing, but the one thing the

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people of Boston know when they wake up this morning is that their

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beloved marathon, one of the rites of spring in New England, that day

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was utterly devastated. It is interesting that the police would

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not confirm if unexploded bombs have been disabled because if there

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are bombs that did not go off, they will have a veritable cornucopia of

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information about who might have been behind this, so that is

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developing story, if of course it is true. We have not been able to

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confirm that. I am joined now by Stephen

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Greenhalgh, who runs the Mayor of London's office for policing and

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crime. And by former Security Minister Admiral Alan West. Why

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would the police not confirm if other bombs had been disabled?

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have hit the nail on the head. When they start pulling it apart and

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find the components, that can give you an immense amount of detail.

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That is why such huge amount of effort goes into the bomb blast

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area to find every bit of a bomb and in this country we are

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amazingly good at that. It enables to find where bombs are being made,

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who provides components, so it is a treasure trove and that is probably

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the reason. Also you get so much information and a lot of this will

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not be correct and that is why you have to be very calm and wait until

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it comes in. And it is why we emphasise that the reports of

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unexploded bombs are unconcerned. I would suggest that if this was Al-

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Qaeda or something similar, or would we not have expected to have

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heard from them by now? We probably would have done. I personally, this

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is my own opinion, would be surprised if it isn't a Al-Qaeda

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attack. I am afraid -- I would be surprised if it is an Al-Qaeda

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attack. There have been many attacks I am afraid, the attacks on

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the Cleveland Bridge, in a high EO, but normally those sorts of

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bombings are against government targets -- in Ohio. This

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unfortunately is very like Islamic extremist terrorism. I assume that

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although there may be meetings about Margaret Thatcher's funeral

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as a result of Boston, not much more need to be done. There are

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comprehensive policing plans in place obviously for the funeral, as

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for all public events like the London Marathon. The London

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Marathon is in a different category from the funeral and more difficult

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to police, I would suggest. Absolutely because people bring

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things when they go running. All these things have been policed in

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the past and the plants are in place. The question is, what can

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you do more for something like the London Marathon and that is where

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we need everybody to be as vigilant as possible. A clearly Margaret

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Thatcher's funeral will be policed for a terrorist attack. Yes, there

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is a balance between a terrorist threat and a public order

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demonstration. Would we police a marathon for a terrorist attack?

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Any large event. The threat levels in this country are substantial,

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that means a strong possibility of a terrorist attack, and everything

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is planned on that basis. We always touch wood because you only need to

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be lucky ones, but we are very good at Bad And I would have no concerns

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about going to either of these events -- and certainly I would

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have no concerns. What could the police do more that they were not

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all would be planning to do? mayor and I have been in touch with

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Bernard Hogan-Howe and the good news is there are comprehensive

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plans in place. Clearly you can search more and you can get the

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help from the public. Anything that looks suspicious, anything that is

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concerning two people, there will be a strong police presence at both

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events so we need the public to play their part and we need to make

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sure maybe we search a bit more then we may have planned to do but

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the plans are in place. In a way, we have been lucky and also we have

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benefited from a great intelligence, because there had been so many

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attempts to do a Boston or a version of a Boston. What is

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fascinating with this is clearly their intelligence agencies had no

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indication whatsoever that something was going to happen and

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our greatest defence is the security service and police

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intelligence agency in this country. We monitor hundreds of people, many

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of whom are British, who wish to do the nation harm. We saw a case

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going through at the moment. That is the way we are able to prevent

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something happening. The dangers are there loners who we are not

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able to monitor. People who we do not have on file, who do it on

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their own bat, and also it is hard with right-wing extremists. We have

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had occasions in the past. In America they have a real problem

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with that sort of threat and they can be very violent. It is unusual

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they aim to kill people randomly. That is very much an Al-Qaeda way

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of doing things. But it was a federal building... I am struck by

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two words that Lord West used. Balance and calm. I was struck not

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just by President Obama's statement but also the Governor of

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Massachusetts this morning. Thankfully, in spite of the carnage

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and the terrible events and the pictures, I am quite reassured by

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the way the US administration is dealing with it, which is, this is

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a terrorist attack. He did not use that word. The commentators in

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America are wondering. It is clearly a terrorist attack but we

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do not know who is behind it. Why didn't he say that? Obviously this

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is truly awful but it is on a different scale to 9/11. A little

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boy was killed in Warrington, that was still a terrorist attack.

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said an act of terror rather than terrorism. But I was struck by the

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sobriety and the lack of rhetoric and flowery language that George

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Bush often 9/11 and this panoply. George Bush's initial reaction was

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to be struck dumb by the scale of it! We will leave it there. There

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will be more on BBC News throughout the day. Thank you for joining us.

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We hope tomorrow and Sunday go off in the usual British way of

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everything being fine. One of the key developments to

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emerge from the Arab Spring has been the use by activists of social

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media to spread revolt and bring it to the attention of the outside

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world. From Tunisia to Egypt to Syria, Twitter, Facebook and

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YouTube have allowed protesters to organise and indeed, televise their

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attempts to bring about regime change. But is the impact of social

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media on the wane and are the very governments which were once at risk

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from it beginning to harness its power to neutralise their

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:13:54.:14:03.

These days revolutions are televised and none more so than the

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Arab Spring but not so much by professional correspondence as by

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images taken on mobile phones and activists to use social media to

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spread revolt. These are some of those activists talking to me

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directly from Syria on Skype. has happened without Facebook?

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is a very tiny village in the countryside but we can fill it.

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has taken and played a good part in the revolution. We have seen

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protesters using social media to mobilise, filming footage that gets

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picked up by film stations, Al- Jazeera, and that name gets

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broadcast back to the country. of the key players has been this

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campaigning organisation. They have helped get footage shot by

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protesters onto mainstream TV but they are also aware that it

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activists want to use social media as a weapon, so do the Government's

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they are trying to overthrow. of them are trying to outdo the

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other, regimes trying to listen in but also activists trying to

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increase their ability to operate without being snooped on. We are

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aware of drones being used in Syria. Iranians are giving support to

:15:31.:15:41.
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use it in more powerful way. Footage of what is happening will be

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immediately available internationally and across the

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country itself in a way that hasn't in the case in the past. Social

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media didn't invent revolt but it did bring it into our living rooms

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in almost real time and that is a power that protesters and those they

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are trying to topple are desperate to harness.

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We are joined now by journalist Nabila Ramdani, who specialises in

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the Arab world, and John Kampfner, who campaigns on freedom of speech.

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I am going to Tunisia and Beirut soon. I'll be right to say that we

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remember in the early days of the Arab spring, also into an easier,

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social media was being used by the insurgents as a way to get their

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story across inland is where the media was almost entirely controlled

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by the state. Is it now right to say the new governments are using social

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media to control what gets out? Absolutely. There is no doubt that

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the social media was indeed a catalyst, especially at the start of

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the revolutions, and played a pivotal role in effectively putting

:17:20.:17:24.

the problems of the Arab world of the global agenda. Having said

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that, it didn't quite lead to regime change. We would be naive to assume

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that. It was a powerful trigger which was supported by traditional

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media. We are seeing now, regimes in the rest of the Arab world getting

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increasingly jittery about what is happening in the region, using

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social media to keep tabs on the activities of political dissidents

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will stop so that is the case in the new Egypt, where the new president

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is using old laws to crack down not only on traditional media but also

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on Internet dissidents. In Gulf countries in particular, we have

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well-documented evidence of Internet dissidents having been arrested,

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tortured and indeed jailed. In the Gulf? Countries like Bahrain, Saudi

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Arabia and even Qatar. Interestingly, in Syria, where

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Facebook was banned before the revolution, it has now been allowed

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by the government in order to monitor the activities of

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dissidents. So we are seeing how governments use social media, either

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to prevent dissent or put across their own messages. It is depressing

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in a way, because we used to think, perhaps wrongly, naively, that

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social media, the Internet, text in, they were kind of anarchic.

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Governments couldn't control them. They were the people's weapons of

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information. That was the great hope of the founders of the Internet. It

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was originally called the wild West, now it is anything but. It is right

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about the Middle East, but it is not just the middle east, but

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everywhere, Russia introduced a pretty awful Internet filtering law

:19:15.:19:22.

in November and China proselytisers, as a patriotic duty, this whole

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thing. It is not just monitoring what people write and what they say,

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it is also going into people 's computers, using technology to find

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out where they are, what they are doing. Your whole life is on your

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computer! Absolutely. Platforms are platforms, and they change behaviour

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through the communication. So the speed of medication has changed

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exponentially, being able to get people out on the streets, you can

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do that just like this. But I am old enough to remember, as a young

:20:03.:20:06.

journalist, I covered the fall of the Berlin Wall and the end of

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coming as in the Soviet Union, there was none of this. Mobile phones?

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Even before that period, people still got out, but it was much

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slower. It doesn't change behaviour but it does change the speed.

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not just talking about authoritarian regimes. We have to be careful in

:20:27.:20:32.

any society, we heard David Cameron calling for Twitter and Facebook to

:20:32.:20:36.

be curtailed during the London riots. London police will be

:20:36.:20:40.

monitoring social media in the run-up to tomorrow's funeral.

:20:40.:20:47.

is the issue, there are legitimate states, child pornography, everyone

:20:47.:20:51.

says it is terrible therefore we need to ban it and keep tabs on who

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is doing it. Terrorism, as we were discussing, copyright is a really

:20:56.:21:02.

interesting one. But what is happening, you are right, it is not

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just authoritarian states, in the UK we saw off to Reza maze misguided

:21:08.:21:12.

bill which would have not just been extremely intrusive in terms of

:21:12.:21:17.

tracking people, you don't just TrackBack people, you track

:21:17.:21:23.

everybody in the hope that you will find something. But is also carte

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blanche to the dictators. The Arab spring is 18 months old now, more

:21:31.:21:37.

than two years. Are we now in a position to say that in general, the

:21:37.:21:41.

governments that have replaced the previous governments are better, or

:21:41.:21:46.

worse, when it comes to this kind of thing? I think transitions are

:21:46.:21:52.

always chaotic and can be extremely messy. You can go backwards. I was

:21:53.:22:00.

quoting the example of Egypt's, where there is no question -- how

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can you go even further back than Mubarak? There is no progress. But I

:22:06.:22:11.

just want to point out the role that Google played in Egypt, when the

:22:11.:22:15.

Internet got shut down, it provided alternative services, where you

:22:15.:22:20.

could literally phone in a tweet and it could be picked up without an

:22:20.:22:26.

Internet connection needed. Will we see the similar technology being

:22:26.:22:33.

provided to Saudi Arabia? We will see. Thank you for being with us.

:22:33.:22:38.

So, it is the London Marathon on Sunday, an event that is going to

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feel the impact of last nights events in Boston. A number of MPs

:22:43.:22:49.

will be running, Adam is outside Parliament with a couple of them.

:22:49.:22:54.

Normally it would be traditional to have a bunch of MPs at this time of

:22:54.:22:57.

year to have MPs in their running shoes during a photocall. That has

:22:58.:23:04.

been postponed in respect to people in Boston. But I am joined by two

:23:04.:23:08.

MPs who will be running around London this weekend, Nicky Morgan

:23:08.:23:14.

and Jim Murphy. We will talk about your preparations in a second, but

:23:14.:23:17.

first of all, Boston, what did you think I'm a knowing you will be

:23:17.:23:23.

running a marathon in a couple of days time? Just tragic. Everyone

:23:23.:23:27.

says the atmosphere will be amazing, at the finish line, there are lots

:23:27.:23:31.

of people waiting there, carnival atmosphere, completely ruined within

:23:31.:23:36.

a matter of seconds. We were looking forward to it and now Sunday is

:23:36.:23:41.

going to have a lot more poignancy for everyone running. A lot of

:23:41.:23:43.

people talking about how preparations for the London Marathon

:23:43.:23:49.

will be different, how do you think they will be affected? It is too

:23:49.:23:53.

early to say who carried out the atrocity, but I think it is right

:23:53.:23:56.

for the security forces here to look again and look afresh at whatever

:23:56.:24:01.

arrangements they can look at in terms of the security. But it is

:24:01.:24:06.

very difficult, it is an open cities, 26 miles, hundreds of

:24:06.:24:11.

thousands of spectators, free access along the roads. My response is

:24:11.:24:15.

initially a sense of shock but it is now determination. I have never run

:24:15.:24:22.

a marathon before, and I really want to do it, after Boston, I have never

:24:22.:24:26.

been more certain that I do want to run a marathon. That is my message

:24:26.:24:30.

to everyone who is thinking of running. My inclination is, don't

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let it put you off. Whoever carried that attack out should not dictate

:24:36.:24:41.

to us in the UK how we live our lives. Come, spectate, participate,

:24:41.:24:46.

run your best, that is my message. Thank you to those reactions. In

:24:46.:24:50.

terms of your preparations, how has the training been going? It has been

:24:50.:24:54.

all right. I'm grateful that we have had Parliament in recess for a

:24:54.:25:00.

couple of weeks, it has given me a chance to run during the day.

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Sometimes you are trying to combine it all the parliamentary duties. I

:25:05.:25:11.

have done 26 miles, I should be running, they ask you to taper off

:25:11.:25:16.

for the last few days. But it is excitement mixed with nervousness. I

:25:16.:25:20.

have never done a full marathon before, I have done a couple of half

:25:20.:25:24.

marathons, the thought of getting to 13 miles and then having another 13

:25:24.:25:30.

to do is really quite something! People always give you advice, what

:25:30.:25:40.
:25:40.:25:40.

is the best bit of advice you have had? Don't do it!Too late! There is

:25:40.:25:46.

an endless amount of advice. My advice is, don't take any advice. On

:25:46.:25:52.

all these online running blogs, they say concentrate on your breathing.

:25:52.:25:58.

My arms move this way, I know how to move my arms! Land your weight on

:25:58.:26:04.

this but, I know how to do all that, but I have been bamboozled. How do I

:26:04.:26:08.

breathe, how do I move my arms? Forget all that, do what comes

:26:08.:26:14.

naturally. But they can ignore that advice as well! Are you prepared for

:26:14.:26:23.

the wall? I am hoping I just get through it. I have been training in

:26:23.:26:27.

Glasgow at strange times at night when the kids go to bed. I am ready

:26:27.:26:35.

for anything! Good luck on Sunday, we will be watching. Shall we have

:26:35.:26:41.

our usual fish and chips for lunch? I will look forward to that! I think

:26:41.:26:46.

that advice, don't do it, is pretty good advice, I am going to follow

:26:46.:26:52.

it! Though running in Glasgow the two hours in the middle of the

:26:52.:26:58.

night, brave man... Our home is our castle, and we are in love with home

:26:58.:27:01.

improvement and DIY programmes. The government wants to help us along by

:27:01.:27:05.

making it easier for us to extend them and in the process give the

:27:05.:27:10.

building sector and economy eight used. Ministers announced last year

:27:10.:27:14.

that they intended a three-year relaxation of the depth of allowed

:27:14.:27:20.

single-storey extensions, from 13 feet to 26 feet four detached houses

:27:20.:27:26.

and from ten feet to 20 feet fall of the houses. Critics argue that this

:27:26.:27:30.

relaxation of planning rules will lead to a rise in disputes between

:27:30.:27:35.

neighbours. The policy has also led to a dispute between the planning

:27:35.:27:40.

minister and some Tory and Lib Dem MPs. Today they will vote for an

:27:41.:27:43.

amendment which would give local authorities the option of projecting

:27:43.:27:51.

the new rules in their area. -- rejecting the new rules. We asked

:27:51.:27:53.

the government for a minister to defend their plans but no one was

:27:54.:27:59.

available. Probably building their conservatories! Joining me to

:27:59.:28:05.

discuss this are one of the rebel MPs, and Brian Berry from the

:28:05.:28:11.

Federation of Master Builders. What is wrong with this? I think the

:28:12.:28:15.

clear position is that if you want to put an extension made Robert E,

:28:15.:28:19.

the first thing you do is talk to your neighbours, and the second

:28:19.:28:22.

thing you do is make sure you have an architect or builder who is

:28:22.:28:25.

properly qualified to do the job, advise you what the planning

:28:26.:28:29.

authority will allow and submit an application which will hopefully

:28:29.:28:34.

sail through and you will get approval. In 87% of the cases where

:28:34.:28:39.

we talk about these extensions, that is approved to stop it costs people

:28:39.:28:44.

roughly �250 for an application. The government is proposing to relax the

:28:44.:28:48.

rules which will allow people to do permitted development, don't bother

:28:48.:28:54.

talking to your neighbours, build what you want within the rules, and

:28:54.:28:56.

hopefully you will apply for a certificate of lawful development.

:28:56.:29:02.

The problem is that you pay a fee for that and the builder has long

:29:02.:29:06.

gone, you are left with an extension that probably doesn't fit the

:29:06.:29:16.
:29:16.:29:17.

rules, you may have to take it down or skeleton act. -- scale it back.

:29:17.:29:21.

If 80% and percent of these applications are approved, why do we

:29:21.:29:26.

need to change? I think we need to have fixed ability for homeowners.

:29:26.:29:32.

But if 87% are approved, haven't we got that fixed ability? We want to

:29:32.:29:37.

make the planning system simpler and easier for householders, this is an

:29:37.:29:40.

option where people can extend their properties, it is only

:29:40.:29:47.

single-storey. We're talking three metres for a terraced house. You

:29:47.:29:51.

will still need to have welding control to check it, it is not a

:29:51.:29:56.

question of building it without any control -- building control. Also

:29:56.:30:03.

the cost can mount up to �2000 in certain cases. It is higher than

:30:04.:30:08.

that if you want planning permission. Surely it is only right

:30:08.:30:14.

that people who want to extend their homes they have the right to do so.

:30:14.:30:18.

If you put a planning application in, the local authority will consult

:30:18.:30:22.

the neighbours and in the neighbours get the chance to say, this is going

:30:22.:30:25.

to be overbearing, it will take my light away, invaded by a provision.

:30:25.:30:30.

If you stay lit back, I'm happy to compromise. What will happen under

:30:30.:30:34.

these proposals is they will be no consultation with the neighbours.

:30:34.:30:39.

There was never a week went by without me having to deal with a

:30:39.:30:42.

planning application where somebody wanted to put an extension on the

:30:42.:30:46.

neighbours disputed it. What happens with the authority is they then

:30:46.:30:56.
:30:56.:31:02.

mediate. People have the right to If I looked out of my back window

:31:02.:31:06.

one morning and discovered something that was 26 ft have been

:31:06.:31:12.

built next door to me, I would be a bit miffed. Most people want to

:31:12.:31:15.

have good relations with their neighbours so they are going to

:31:15.:31:21.

talk to their neighbours. The have not met my neighbours. We have a

:31:21.:31:27.

housing crisis in this country. We are only building half the number

:31:27.:31:33.

of houses required. People cannot afford to move and need to have

:31:33.:31:37.

that flexibility. If we are putting in relaxation to extend the

:31:37.:31:46.

property, single-storey, that has to be a good thing. Your government

:31:46.:31:51.

says we need more building jobs, it will help get the economy going, it

:31:51.:31:56.

will be small businesses doing this, and that will put money in people's

:31:56.:32:04.

pockets, and also a lot of people cannot afford to move. I would

:32:04.:32:07.

completely agree and if we had a position where home improvements

:32:08.:32:12.

were stalled, but we are talking about 90% of the applications

:32:12.:32:18.

sailing through. It depends on the local authority you live in. The

:32:18.:32:25.

lots and lots... We also have a lot of people who buy up property is

:32:25.:32:29.

especially in London and then they put on the maximum possible

:32:29.:32:33.

extension, they let out the premises and pile people into

:32:34.:32:39.

living is extensions in a very unacceptable manner. This is for

:32:39.:32:44.

England only. This seems a random measure. What we need is more homes

:32:44.:32:49.

in this country and also of the worst manifestation of planning

:32:49.:32:54.

laws and bureaucracy are our big infrastructure projects. Look how

:32:54.:33:00.

long in London it has taken to get cross roll up and running, 20 years.

:33:00.:33:08.

I broke the story in 1986! CrossRail. If we want to get the

:33:08.:33:14.

economy going, we have to get going on infrastructure, railway lines,

:33:14.:33:20.

the get the country running in terms of the grand projects, as the

:33:20.:33:27.

French call them. But we do need to build more homes. I would love to

:33:27.:33:31.

see the government kick-start the housing market. Why don't the

:33:31.:33:35.

builders just get on with it? First-time buyers find it very hard

:33:35.:33:40.

because of the lack of mortgage availability. Another thing to help

:33:40.:33:44.

the building industry would be to reduce VAT on repair and

:33:44.:33:50.

maintenance to 5%. We each they did in France. Yes and it was a fiscal

:33:50.:33:56.

success. If the government was very serious I think we need to see

:33:56.:34:00.

attempts to kick-start the housing market. Her will win on the

:34:00.:34:06.

politics of this? We will see what happens. -- who will win? Labour

:34:06.:34:13.

are backing you? About 20 Tories are backing us and some Lib Dems. I

:34:13.:34:18.

will vote against. I am voting in favour of the amendment that went

:34:18.:34:22.

through in the House of Lords which allows local authorities to set

:34:22.:34:29.

their own rules. Good local list policy. But it will never happen!

:34:29.:34:34.

We have a contradiction here. have to leave it there.

:34:34.:34:37.

At one time, no self-respecting circus master would be without an

:34:37.:34:41.

elephant, tiger or lion in their big-top. But in recent years the

:34:41.:34:49.

practice has diminished. In Britain only a handful of circuses use wild

:34:49.:34:51.

animals and revelations of cruel treatment of those animals has

:34:51.:34:55.

increased pressure for an outright ban. Today the government has

:34:55.:34:58.

outlined plans to introduce such a ban after pressure from MPs on all

:34:58.:35:01.

sides, not least the Conservative backbencher Mark Pritchard, who

:35:01.:35:08.

faced considerable resistance from Number 10. I was told unless I

:35:08.:35:13.

withdraw this motion that the Prime Minister himself said that he would

:35:13.:35:20.

look upon it very dimly indeed. Will I have a message for the whips

:35:20.:35:26.

and for the Prime Minister of our country. I have a message. I may

:35:26.:35:30.

just be a little council house lad from a very poor background but

:35:30.:35:34.

that background gives me a backbone and a thick skin and I am not going

:35:34.:35:39.

to be kowtowed by the whips or even the Prime Minister of my country on

:35:39.:35:42.

an issue that I feel passionately about and that I have conviction

:35:42.:35:47.

about! And Mark Prichard is with me now.

:35:47.:35:53.

The lad from the council house. Are you getting your way? I am

:35:53.:35:57.

delighted that the government is finally bringing about the ban. The

:35:57.:36:03.

last government did not do it. Credit to this government, it is

:36:03.:36:09.

introducing a ban from 2015. It is a great day for animal welfare.

:36:09.:36:14.

Newspapers like the Independent, my constituents have been a support,

:36:14.:36:19.

animal welfare charities, and the government has listened to the

:36:19.:36:25.

public opinion. 96% want to see an outright ban. A good day for Animal

:36:25.:36:28.

Welfare, a good day for the government because the government

:36:28.:36:35.

has listened. But on that clip, the heavies were putting the moves on

:36:35.:36:39.

you to stop you proselytising this idea. Now you say the government is

:36:39.:36:46.

for it? What changed? The government to the view that the

:36:46.:36:49.

unanimous support of the House of Commons mattered. They said they

:36:49.:36:55.

would respect the will of parliament. They have taken on

:36:55.:36:58.

board public opinion. A lot of people have written to Number Ten

:36:59.:37:03.

since that debate setting out their own views. A lot of us have been

:37:03.:37:08.

working behind the scenes and with ministers and officials but credit

:37:08.:37:13.

where it is due, the government has listened. The last government did

:37:13.:37:19.

not bring forward a ban. Where is the politics and where is the

:37:19.:37:24.

policy in trying to stop you doing what you were trying to do? Why

:37:24.:37:34.
:37:34.:37:35.

were they so upset? That is still a mystery. But that is history.

:37:35.:37:40.

but why? That is a question for historians and distinguished

:37:40.:37:43.

journalists. I respect the whips but I am not afraid of them and

:37:43.:37:48.

they know that. Many of them have moved into ministerial positions

:37:48.:37:53.

now so we have a different whips office but I think the whips

:37:53.:37:58.

realised, most of them realise if they are sensible, it is best to

:37:58.:38:06.

work alongside colleagues wherever possible without resorting to

:38:06.:38:11.

alternative tactics that are sometimes unhelpful. It must mean

:38:11.:38:17.

the end of circuses as we know them. Not at all. There are many

:38:17.:38:21.

successful commercial circuses around the world, Cirque du Soleil

:38:21.:38:30.

of, and Bolivia has just banned wild animals in circuses, Austria...

:38:30.:38:34.

The French banned it some time ago. I am sure somebody but e-mail if I

:38:34.:38:44.
:38:44.:38:44.

am wrong. -- will send any now. the idea of a circus that we see in

:38:44.:38:50.

the movies, the Billy Smart's Circus stuff, which we see in many

:38:50.:38:55.

movies, that will be over. That might seem quaint and I remember

:38:55.:39:01.

when I was young I was dragged along to circuses, but a lot of

:39:01.:39:04.

these animals are transported and house in cramped and cool

:39:04.:39:11.

conditions. I am not arguing that. What will happen to the elephants?

:39:11.:39:18.

I do not accept it will be the end of circuses. As we know it.Yes,

:39:18.:39:22.

they will develop in a new way and change the way they do things.

:39:22.:39:27.

will happen to the animals? I hope they will be put in to rescue

:39:27.:39:32.

centres and rehoused. Does the legislation take care of that?

:39:32.:39:37.

These details will be worked out with DEFRA, but from 2015 onwards,

:39:37.:39:42.

we will not have a new generation of wild animals exploited for

:39:42.:39:47.

profit in this country. It is a good day for animal welfare and for

:39:47.:39:50.

the party of William Wilberforce, it is a proud day for the

:39:51.:39:55.

Conservative Party. Thank you. Well we have had the late-night

:39:55.:39:58.

deal, the criticism from the papers, and delight from the celebrities

:39:58.:40:02.

they tormented. Next month the Queen will sign off a new regime

:40:02.:40:07.

that is supposed to regulate the press. But not everyone is happy

:40:07.:40:10.

and it is going to take a lot convince editors, from the

:40:10.:40:15.

Telegraph to the Guardian, to sign up to the new system. Three of the

:40:15.:40:18.

main players who agreed the deal are before MPs at the Culture,

:40:18.:40:21.

Media and Sport Committee this morning. Let's see what has been

:40:21.:40:28.

said. The work that has been done since November will mean that there

:40:28.:40:32.

is a very strong reason why either press of this country would want to

:40:32.:40:37.

take part in this new system of self regulation. There are clear

:40:37.:40:44.

incentives and clear disincentives for not taking part Rostock that is

:40:44.:40:49.

the premise that Lord Justice Leveson set out in his report, that

:40:49.:40:56.

is what we followed. We believe very strongly that the system that

:40:56.:41:01.

we have discussed in parliament on a number of occasions will provide

:41:01.:41:04.

absolutely the right basis for us to move forward on. We are

:41:04.:41:08.

convinced that this is the right way forward and that the press will

:41:08.:41:15.

want to take part in it. It seems to me it a dereliction of duty not

:41:15.:41:18.

to think through the consequences of people not signing up to

:41:18.:41:23.

something. In industry, if somebody showed that level of lack of

:41:23.:41:29.

foresight and planning, I would not be particularly encouraged. The we

:41:29.:41:36.

disagree. We are optimists about the press. We think they will come

:41:36.:41:42.

forward and set up a regulatory body and seek recognition. We would

:41:42.:41:48.

like to have confidence... This is not about what the press and

:41:48.:41:53.

politicians want, it is about the victims to deserve protection and

:41:53.:41:59.

there must be a momentum. Have you any doubts that we will get to

:41:59.:42:03.

completion with this? We will certainly get to a conclusion

:42:03.:42:08.

because we will set up a charter that will have a recognition panel

:42:08.:42:11.

and that will lead to the incentives for people to want to

:42:11.:42:15.

take part in this process. One of the most vocal campaigners

:42:15.:42:19.

for regulation of the press is the Labour MP Chris Bryant. He told the

:42:20.:42:22.

Leveson Inquiry about how his private life had been splashed all

:42:22.:42:29.

over the tabloids and he joins me now. John Kampfner is still with us.

:42:29.:42:34.

It looks like you have called a party and nobody is coming. That is

:42:34.:42:43.

one way of putting it! No, I disagree. The Royal Charter has not

:42:44.:42:48.

actually gone to the privy council yet. That will happen in May. The

:42:48.:42:53.

legislation has not got Royal Assent yet. Until those two things

:42:53.:42:58.

are in place it will be too early to decide. We learned this morning

:42:58.:43:01.

that the government is not even in discussions with the newspapers

:43:01.:43:06.

about what to do next to. I think the government should be in

:43:06.:43:11.

discussions. Everybody agrees, including the newspaper owners, but

:43:11.:43:16.

the PCC was inappropriate, it did not meet the needs of the families

:43:16.:43:23.

in Hills's brother, a carcass other people, -- countless other people,

:43:23.:43:28.

like Christopher Jefferies and so many other people. I think if the

:43:28.:43:32.

press are honest, I hope they will sit down and look at what they can

:43:32.:43:37.

do to abide by this but not least because that is what most punters

:43:37.:43:41.

to buy their newspapers want and what operates in Ireland, in the

:43:41.:43:47.

Republic of Ireland. But without anybody moaning! Except that the

:43:47.:43:51.

government want to toughen it up. One newspaper executive said to me

:43:51.:43:56.

this morning that his fear is that the ratchet only goes one way. This

:43:56.:44:04.

will never be lighter and. Are no, no. I have heard all the hyperbole.

:44:04.:44:10.

I have never read so much hyperbole in my life. But you go to party

:44:10.:44:17.

conference! He just listen to them! -- you just listen! I thought the

:44:17.:44:21.

press did itself an enormous disservice when it ran all these

:44:21.:44:27.

articles for days on end, I mean, self-serving. If a journalist ever

:44:27.:44:31.

accuses me of being self-serving again I was slapped them up round

:44:31.:44:37.

the face with a hat-trick. I don't think that is allowed!

:44:37.:44:45.

Metaphorically. But you are in some trouble. Never mind the Daily Mail,

:44:45.:44:50.

the Telegraph, even the Times. As things stand, you can't even get

:44:50.:44:57.

the Guardian to sign up to this. as far as I know. I am not involved

:44:57.:45:01.

in these discussions. I hope the government will pursue what we have

:45:01.:45:08.

got to do. We have got to get the Privy charted in place. All the

:45:08.:45:12.

press campaigned vigorously against a legislative solution but remember

:45:12.:45:15.

the Prime Minister said if nobody ended up signing up to this, they

:45:16.:45:20.

would have to go to the previous version, which is everything under

:45:20.:45:26.

Ofcom, which nobody wants. I would say to the press, you said you

:45:26.:45:30.

wanted a better organisation and the PCC, you admitted it did not do

:45:30.:45:34.

the job, I think there is an interest of the press at a time

:45:34.:45:39.

when, how much of the press will be with us in 15 years' time is on my

:45:40.:45:43.

mind, how can you make sure you have a cheaper system of redress

:45:43.:45:53.
:45:53.:46:01.

many readers will think they are above the law, they are too

:46:01.:46:07.

powerful. There is a lot of common ground and all of this, I would

:46:07.:46:11.

agree with it. Everybody thinks that what happened with phone hacking was

:46:11.:46:15.

wrong, most of it was criminal. Most of it could and should have been

:46:15.:46:19.

dealt with by the police but they were far too in hock to newspaper

:46:19.:46:28.

bosses. Leveson was a good enquiry, I appeared before it twice. I have

:46:28.:46:32.

respect for the process, many of the conclusions are across the board

:46:32.:46:36.

agreed, the old regulator wasn't working, we need a better regulated.

:46:36.:46:42.

What you do not do, however, after an enquiry that took a year, is,

:46:42.:46:52.
:46:52.:46:53.

with a three a.m. Deal with a whole random bunch of people, you include

:46:53.:47:00.

members of campaigns, the lobby organisation that was having a

:47:00.:47:04.

respectable position, but the analogy I would draw would be that

:47:04.:47:07.

you have the Northern Ireland peace negotiations and you involve the

:47:07.:47:17.
:47:17.:47:19.

Catholics and not the Protestants. Hang on, to be fair, we have no idea

:47:19.:47:25.

what meetings there were between government and press at the time.

:47:26.:47:28.

Because the government refuses to publish them. They are only

:47:28.:47:34.

publishing the meetings they had up to last September. Let me answer the

:47:34.:47:36.

important question, which is the point that everything was

:47:36.:47:46.
:47:46.:47:50.

illegal... Not everything. And that the regulator was poor. Part of the

:47:50.:47:53.

problem was that the press believed they were above the law, and they

:47:53.:47:57.

didn't care they were breaking the law. It is the same issue now. The

:47:57.:48:01.

law has been written, and that is why, I think, there is a lot of

:48:01.:48:05.

common ground. Nobody is trying to create a body where positions tell

:48:05.:48:13.

the press what is written and what is not working. What was agreed at

:48:13.:48:22.

that meeting was tougher than what Leveson originally wanted. Not just

:48:22.:48:26.

tougher, but also shoddy. They were saying, can you throw in a bit of

:48:26.:48:34.

Internet. I have been critical of the process because I think the

:48:34.:48:37.

Prime Minister should have been hands-on, I think it was bizarre

:48:37.:48:41.

that he delegated it to live in Edwin, I think I was critical

:48:41.:48:51.
:48:51.:48:56.

about... It changes Leveson, because a lot of people, it should be off,.

:48:56.:49:00.

On who approves the code, on the form of apologies, it goes way

:49:00.:49:09.

beyond... I would not say that it is more aggressive than Leveson.

:49:09.:49:14.

Leveson was absolutely clear it had to be an independent body, where you

:49:14.:49:22.

didn't have the press marking its own homework. But there are busy

:49:22.:49:27.

newspaper organisations that have a vested interest that got themselves

:49:27.:49:30.

into this situation, you also have newspaper editors on the right side

:49:31.:49:35.

of this debate. As Andrew says, they are all uncomfortable, not just with

:49:35.:49:39.

the result but with the process that led to the results. You now have the

:49:39.:49:46.

worst of all worlds, where nobody wants to sign up to what is

:49:46.:49:54.

effectively a dog's breakfast. not a dog's breakfast, the vast

:49:54.:49:59.

majority of people in this country want a press that is able to be wild

:49:59.:50:02.

coming Justin, exciting, entertaining, all the rest of it.

:50:02.:50:06.

Nobody wants to see state censorship and everybody wants to see a fairer

:50:06.:50:12.

system of redress, and I think it is now incumbent on the press to set

:50:12.:50:20.

down and say, how can we make what we have got work? Didn't you

:50:20.:50:29.

describe real titres as an autocratic rule? -- Royal charters.

:50:29.:50:31.

I wasn't in favour of this process, I would have preferred straight

:50:31.:50:41.
:50:41.:50:45.

legislation. Just behave, Andrew! You are regulated! Broadcasting is

:50:45.:50:55.
:50:55.:50:57.

regulating stop -- is regulated. have run out of time. I do

:50:57.:51:05.

apologise, my lord. You should take your forelock, you didn't have a

:51:05.:51:14.

forelock! Final depressions are taking place for the funeral of

:51:14.:51:17.

Baroness Thatcher tomorrow, and MPs are debating whether to cancel Prime

:51:18.:51:21.

Minister's questions in order to allow them to attend. Dennis Skinner

:51:21.:51:27.

and the Respect MP George Galloway have objected to the proposals. What

:51:27.:51:30.

are they up to and will they succeed? Parliament will be

:51:30.:51:36.

presenting different faces below and above ground this afternoon. We will

:51:36.:51:41.

see Lady Thatcher's coughing come to the chapel, where there will be a

:51:41.:51:46.

short service and MPs and peers will be able to go and pay their

:51:46.:51:51.

respects. Quite possibly, while some of that is happening, there will be

:51:51.:51:54.

this debate about whether or not there should be a delay in

:51:54.:51:58.

proceedings until after the funeral is over. I have been speaking to

:51:58.:52:04.

Dennis Skinner, he is very angry about how a lot of this has gone. He

:52:04.:52:08.

says, why couldn't we have had a vote on this, why is money being

:52:08.:52:13.

spent when we have concerns about austerity? I have spoken to lots of

:52:14.:52:18.

people in labours ranks, including Glenda Jackson, the MP who had a lot

:52:18.:52:21.

to say during the tribute abates, none of them have confirmed to me

:52:21.:52:26.

that they will be voting with Dennis Skinner yet. She says she's yet to

:52:26.:52:34.

make up her mind. As far as I understand it, they will not be a

:52:34.:52:42.

Prime Minister's questions tomorrow? They will not be, and

:52:42.:52:45.

ultimately, Labour will go along with the government, insured. What

:52:45.:52:51.

all this means is that on the Eve of Lady Thatcher 's funeral, at a time

:52:51.:52:57.

when people have been saying that there has been too much difference,

:52:57.:53:02.

there will be time set aside in the House of Commons for those who feel

:53:02.:53:06.

most vehemently and angrily about her legacy to have their say. I

:53:06.:53:10.

think those two shy and retiring characters you mentioned may take

:53:10.:53:17.

the opportunity to do just that. The funeral will start at Saint

:53:17.:53:21.

Pauls at 11 a.m. Tomorrow. Central London Road will be closed and 50

:53:21.:53:23.

bus routes will be disrupted as dignitaries from around the world

:53:23.:53:26.

will rub shoulders with the chefs, celebrities and people who worked

:53:26.:53:32.

with Margaret Thatcher. As well as Mr Cameron, the service will be

:53:32.:53:35.

attended by all living former prime ministers, and they will be joined

:53:35.:53:40.

by figures including the former South African leader FW de Klerk, a

:53:40.:53:46.

key figure at the end of apartheid, and Newt Gingrich, the Republican

:53:46.:53:54.

speaker in the mid-19 90s. But it is not just politicians, actors, chefs,

:53:54.:53:59.

singers and broadcasters have also been invited. Michael Crawford plans

:53:59.:54:06.

to be there as does Michael Portillo. They will be joined by Top

:54:06.:54:10.

Gear presenter Jeremy Clarkson and the recently departed US Secretary

:54:10.:54:12.

of State and maybe the next president of the US, Hillary

:54:12.:54:19.

Clinton. Joining me to discuss the seating plans, former Tory MP Gyles

:54:19.:54:29.

Brandreth and Dr Eliza Filby. How do they work out who sits where?

:54:29.:54:33.

imagine I will be sitting right at the back, behind a pillar? But it

:54:33.:54:39.

will be an honour to be there. It is a funeral, but you and I, we know

:54:39.:54:43.

Carol Thatcher, she is the daughter. Losing your mother is a

:54:43.:54:47.

complicated thing, a difficult thing, even when the mother is old

:54:47.:54:51.

and has been frail poor thing -- for years. Some of the writing about it

:54:51.:54:57.

at either turned into a jamboree or like a royal wedding, who will

:54:57.:55:02.

receive their? We have to remember, it is a funeral. It is also a

:55:02.:55:06.

ceremonial funeral. What I like about the list is as well as the

:55:06.:55:10.

great political figures of her day, there are people that over the

:55:10.:55:14.

years, particularly in the 23 years since she left office, when she had

:55:14.:55:22.

no active on a six in her life, she had to have other resources. -- no

:55:22.:55:26.

active politics. She met people who were good companions along the way.

:55:26.:55:33.

Quite a few of those will be there, Joan Collins, Jeremy Clarkson.

:55:33.:55:39.

won't have been a funeral like this since Sir Winston Churchill? It is

:55:39.:55:43.

the obvious parallel, but there will not be the same pomp and

:55:43.:55:50.

circumstance. I think Churchill's death was two days of natural

:55:50.:56:00.
:56:00.:56:01.

morning, he lay in state for three days... I ran with the cranes, when

:56:01.:56:10.

he went down the river. It wouldn't be... It will not be the same as

:56:10.:56:14.

Churchill's, but the other parallel is Clement Attlee. She is lauded as

:56:14.:56:23.

written is greatest peacetime Prime Minister -- Britain's greatest

:56:23.:56:28.

peacetime promised. But his was very sedate. The only connection with the

:56:28.:56:33.

fact that he had been Prime Minister was the recent underbody coughing

:56:33.:56:42.

which was from the flowers of checkers. He built Britain's welfare

:56:42.:56:52.
:56:52.:56:54.

state and nuclear deterrent. element of history here is that this

:56:54.:56:57.

is Britain's first woman prime minister. The people of my daughters

:56:58.:57:02.

generation, they take it for granted, what Thatcher achieved. But

:57:02.:57:07.

there she was, getting to Oxford in the 1940s, becoming an MP in the

:57:07.:57:12.

1950s, these were a remarkable thing for a woman to do, and then becoming

:57:12.:57:15.

prime minister. The service is going to be a spiritual, nonpolitical

:57:15.:57:22.

affair. She was serious about her method is as a girl and being a

:57:22.:57:26.

member of the Church of England as an adult and that will be remembered

:57:26.:57:35.

in the service. Francis Maude said that Tony Blair should be afforded a

:57:35.:57:41.

state funeral when the time comes... To me, what happened to good old

:57:41.:57:45.

British restraint? Everything seems to be in this post Diana

:57:46.:57:49.

environment, hyperbolic, grandiose, I am not making a blizzard will

:57:49.:57:57.

point. But if you think about the 19th-century, you had the Duke of

:57:57.:58:00.

Wellington, even Gladstone, who didn't want a great pageant, there

:58:00.:58:09.

were no military connections with it at all, he still lay in state.

:58:09.:58:11.

got 13,000 people into St Paul's for the Duke of Wellington, health and

:58:11.:58:18.

safety would never allow that now! So you are saying, a final word on

:58:18.:58:22.

this, you are saying that in the 19th century we actually did going

:58:22.:58:29.

to these big things? The 19th century was the age of ceremony and

:58:29.:58:35.

deference. Churchill's funeral, which was the obvious parallel, was

:58:36.:58:38.

symbolic because it was the end of Churchill's England, the end of

:58:38.:58:45.

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