18/04/2013 Daily Politics


18/04/2013

Andrew Neil with the latest political news and debate, including a new bid to deport extremist cleric Abu Qatada. With blogger Iain Dale.


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Transcript


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Good afternoon folks. Welcome to the Daily Politics. It's the day

:00:45.:00:48.

after the morning before as politics starts to return to normal.

:00:48.:00:54.

After the funeral of Margaret Thatcher. Will we ever see an event

:00:54.:00:58.

like yesterday again? Probably not. How will the Thatcher legacy change

:00:58.:01:02.

today's politics, if at all? Ed Miliband says he moved the centre

:01:02.:01:06.

ground of British politics. Fair enough. But what's the Labour

:01:06.:01:11.

leader's direction of travel? And can he do the same?

:01:11.:01:16.

Another Poe ten sthal inheritor of the mantle, Theresa May talks

:01:16.:01:18.

terrorism and Abu Qatada this morning.

:01:18.:01:23.

We'll have the latest. And while all eyes have been on

:01:23.:01:32.

North Korea, is Iran the number one nuclear threat to global security?

:01:32.:01:39.

All that is coming up in the next hour. With us for the duration,

:01:39.:01:48.

publisher, blogger, radio host at LBS, Iain Dale. Congratulations on

:01:48.:01:54.

your drivetime show. Thank you. It's very American. 24 Hours ago

:01:54.:01:58.

the political world, media world, armed forces and much of the

:01:58.:02:02.

British establishment from the Queen down gathered in St Paul's

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Cathedral for the funeral of Margaret Thatcher. More than 2,000

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guests from around the world were inside, many thousands more lined

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the streets to witness her final journey. Our guest Iain Dale was at

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St Paul's. What due make of it all? It was a funeral unlike any other

:02:19.:02:25.

I've been to before. It was an event rather than a funeral. It was

:02:25.:02:28.

very unemotional. I think the Chancellor might disagree with that.

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I didn't move to tears. Normally at a funeral I get choked up. Why do

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you think you felt like that? Because it was so big probably.

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scale of it and St Paul's too. you didn't have the family filing

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in after the coffin. That's all a very emotional moment. I mean it

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was a great service. The bishop of London was absolutely superb. I

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don't say that about bishops very often. A tough gig, there were so

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many ways to get that wrong. sounded like a bishop and I think

:02:59.:03:02.

the message he put over was very good. He didn't talk about politics

:03:02.:03:06.

a lot. It was mainly the fact that her personal persona was very

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different to the image she cultivated publicly. Most who knew

:03:10.:03:16.

her would recognise that. I notice that the most emotional part for

:03:16.:03:19.

many people in the church wasn't about what happened inside the

:03:19.:03:23.

church, but when the coffin was taken out at the end and they could

:03:23.:03:28.

hear the cheers and the applause of the crowd and I think, they found

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that emotional, I think we can see the coffin now coming out there.

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There we are. I think the people inside the church, it took them by

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surprise. It did a bit. A few friends of mine were in the crowd

:03:46.:03:52.

outside. Many people were in tears, grown men in tears. It's not very

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often you see that public. People always think crying is a sign of

:03:55.:03:58.

weakness. I think it's a sign of strength and nothing to be ashamed

:03:58.:04:01.

about. All of these people having a go at Chancellor for shedding a

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tear at the funeral. For goodness sake, politicians are human too.

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Even the Chancellor? Yes.That's a shock. Even journalists too.I know

:04:13.:04:19.

too many for that not to be true. The protesters, I think, many

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people may have felt they shouldn't done -- have done anything at all.

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But it is a free country going through the streets of our capital,

:04:27.:04:32.

they behaved in a pretty restrained British way, did they not? There

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were comparatively few. Most behaved with a reasonable amount of

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dignity and respect. We do live in a free country. I was worried bit

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reports that there would be pre- emtive arrests. Like Nazi Germany

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or Stalin's Russia. Exactly. I think what the protesters didn't

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understand about Margaret Thatcher is that she would have seen it as a

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tribute. She wouldn't have cared less. She wouldn't have cared less

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if Radio 1 had played ding dong the witch is dead. She would think it

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proved she made a difference. If she hadn't made a difference no-one

:05:03.:05:07.

would care about the legacy. Given, I mean, we have, I have to confess,

:05:07.:05:11.

some viewers will agree, we've come pretty close to being Thatchered

:05:11.:05:18.

out at the moment. We've had a lot. I just wanted to ask you, how has

:05:18.:05:24.

it played for Mr Cameron and today's Conservative Party, has all

:05:24.:05:29.

this Thatcher coverage been overall a plus or a minus? I don't think

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it's made the slightest difference. What it has done, it may have, some

:05:33.:05:38.

may have thought at least we knew what she believed in. We're not

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still not 100% what David Cameron believes in. I think for those of

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us who broadcast four hours a day and have to do phone-ins on the

:05:47.:05:50.

subject, the audiences sometimes get tired of. It you have to think

:05:50.:05:53.

of a new angle for it. I have to say today, there will be no

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Thatcher on my show. There you go. I say that as a Thatcher devotee.

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Even I'm relieved. Another reason to listen to Iain Dale! What is

:06:04.:06:08.

Margaret Thatcher's legacy then? Would David Cameron do bet fer he

:06:08.:06:13.

was more like her? Who would win in a fight between her and Winston

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Churchill. I don't mean a real fight, I mean popularity. I think

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Winston Churchill would probably come out ahead given the war years.

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Some of these questions have been asked in the studio. But they come

:06:23.:06:28.

down to one wig word - leadership. Is the big L really as mysterious

:06:28.:06:34.

as it seems? It turns out it isn't, as our Adam has been finding out.

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Now there was someone who knew about leadership. Winston Churchill,

:06:39.:06:49.
:06:49.:06:50.

who oversaw the war effort from this bunker under Whitehall. In a

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recent poll by U gof for the Sun, 24% of people said Churchill was

:06:59.:07:03.

the best Prime Minister, in first place was Margaret Thatcher with 28

:07:03.:07:07.

% of people saying she was the greatest post-war Prime Minister.

:07:07.:07:10.

Sometimes it seems that great leaders are carved out of sterner

:07:10.:07:15.

stuff than the rest of us, but is that really true? Or can leadership

:07:15.:07:22.

be learned? The new leader of the Liberal Democrats. When Ming

:07:23.:07:28.

Campbell led the Lib Dems in 2006 she was schooled to overcome one of

:07:28.:07:33.

his biggest weaknesses. Perhaps he'd like to explain why one in

:07:33.:07:37.

five schools do not have a permanent head teacher. When the

:07:37.:07:42.

Prime Minister entered... PMQ's.I just knew it was going to be one of

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those days. We examined the problem of me looking at my notes and

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wearing spectacles and how we could deal with that. I mustn't always be

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looking down and not up. We decided I had to learn the questions. So I

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had to learn more than one question in case the leader of the

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Opposition took all the possible questions on the subject. I learned

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to take my spectacles off to use them to reinforce the point I was

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trying to make. Back in Churchill's bunker it's less presentation and

:08:14.:08:18.

more plotting a strategy with leadership guru Zoe Gruhne of the

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institute for Government, who coaches Cabinet ministers on their

:08:22.:08:24.

management style. It's almost holding up a mirror actually and

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saying to them, you know, what are the positive and negative

:08:29.:08:34.

experiences you've had when you've been led and getting them to think

:08:34.:08:38.

about those qualities. Who do they see as great leaders and why? So

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you start to understand what it is that motivates them. And the more

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they become aware of that, the more you help them to understand that

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other people can be motivated by different kinds of leaders. Begin

:08:49.:08:53.

to unpick what are the different qualities of a leader. Sadly she

:08:53.:08:58.

won't say who round this table has been to see her, because it's all

:08:58.:09:01.

strictly confident shl. She reckons even a Prime Minister can be caught

:09:01.:09:06.

how to govern. They have a Cabinet to run. They need to think about

:09:06.:09:11.

how they manage that Cabinet. If there is discord what do I do about

:09:11.:09:15.

that, how can I manage in terms of my own leadership style and the

:09:15.:09:19.

impact I have on others. Yes, leadership coaching is excellent

:09:19.:09:23.

and I'd be delighted to talk to the Prime Minister about it. David

:09:23.:09:27.

Cameron, she'll see you now. Before you say, isn't this all a

:09:27.:09:33.

bit too personality focused? A bit subChurchill, remember this at the

:09:33.:09:36.

2010 general election, for the first time ever, people said the

:09:36.:09:40.

party leaders were as important as the party's policies when they were

:09:40.:09:46.

deciding who to vote for. That was adds am. We're joined by

:09:46.:09:53.

the former Labour Deputy Leader and former Foreign Secretary, Margaret

:09:53.:09:58.

Beckett. Welcome back to the Daily Politics. Is there something in the

:09:58.:10:03.

fact that, let's take, put atly to one side on this, but take Mr

:10:03.:10:09.

Churchill, Mrs Thatcher, Mr Blair, not one of these three came from

:10:09.:10:13.

the mainstream of their party. They were semi-detached from their

:10:13.:10:22.

parties. That's a good point, yes. I'm not sure that you have to be.

:10:22.:10:28.

Atley Clearly wasn't. No. But they were slightly big than their

:10:28.:10:32.

parties. In the end, yes. I don't think you could say that as

:10:32.:10:34.

Margaret Thatcher as leader of the Opposition. Once she was Prime

:10:34.:10:38.

Minister it was a different ball game. But I suppose it may be, I

:10:38.:10:42.

think there's a quality leaders have to have of being able and

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prepared to take the judgment that they feel they have to take and

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live with the consequences whatever they are. And maybe if you're a bit

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of an outsider that gives you, you know, that means you either can do

:10:55.:11:00.

that or you give in. The constant complaint of Mrs Thatcher, every

:11:00.:11:05.

time since she died, every time in broadcasting someone would say

:11:05.:11:10.

something good about her, we've cut to someone else who said she was a

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devicive character. I think that's a fair complaint. Buff it's

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possible that almost Great Leader is in their own way a divisive

:11:20.:11:25.

character pl. Blair certainly was. A million people marched on the

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streets against one of the things he wanted to do. Before the Second

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World War, which was a unique circumstance, Winston Churchill was

:11:31.:11:36.

certainly a very divisive figure. Yes, but I think if you set aside

:11:36.:11:41.

Iraq, which I know is not an easy thing to do, you're looking at his

:11:41.:11:45.

leadership as a whole, I don't think he was seen as divisive up

:11:45.:11:50.

until that point. The thing that I think was different about Margaret

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Thatcher, Matthew Parris said in a conversation we had on radio Derby

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the other day that not only was she seen as divisive by other people

:11:58.:12:03.

but that she herself divided people in her own mind into those who were

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on her side and everybody else. mean unlike the Blairites? Well...

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Any politician who has any conviction at all is going to be

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divisive. You're either going to love them or you're going to hate

:12:16.:12:20.

them. I think that's a strength in a politician. I think actually Ed

:12:20.:12:25.

Miliband has got it in him to be a conviction politician. At this

:12:25.:12:28.

stage in hills leadership he's far ahead of where Margaret Thatcher

:12:28.:12:32.

was in her leadership as leader of the Opposition. That's absolutely

:12:32.:12:36.

right. I mean, I'm afraid, I know it's perhaps people might think

:12:36.:12:39.

it's not the right time to say it, Margaret Thatcher was a terrible

:12:39.:12:46.

leader of the Opposition. She never laid a glove on Jim Callaghan.

:12:46.:12:50.

had bad PMQ's. Dreadful. And speeches especially before they did

:12:50.:12:54.

her voice. The thing I used to say to people in her party, who were

:12:54.:12:58.

saying oh, it will be all right because the wise heads around her

:12:58.:13:02.

will steer her, they were note supportive. They undermined, they

:13:02.:13:06.

sneered at her. I used to say to them, she won't owe you a thing.

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When she becomes Prime Minister, if she becomes Prime Minister, she

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won't owe you anything. Well you're right. If you think that, you don't

:13:14.:13:19.

understand women and why should she listen to you. But tough, I mean,

:13:19.:13:24.

the normal form of leadership -- leadership is to try and be seen to

:13:24.:13:28.

be on the centre ground, usually as defined by the middle distance

:13:28.:13:34.

between the two parties. And as defined bit mainstream media as

:13:34.:13:38.

well. Indeed.And to be seen the cuddly person, the consensus

:13:38.:13:42.

politician. People like Mrs Thatcher and Tony Blair and Winston

:13:42.:13:46.

Churchill too in the time of war, they didn't look for them. They

:13:46.:13:50.

said this is where I stand, either join me or we'll have a fight about

:13:50.:13:57.

it. But I'm not looking to be all things to all men. This is where I

:13:57.:13:59.

think, I was interested that you drew the comparison with Ed

:13:59.:14:03.

Miliband, because so do I. If you notice what he said in his speech

:14:03.:14:06.

about Margaret Thatcher, he drew out the fact this she was a

:14:06.:14:10.

politician of conviction. I think he like her wants to shape where

:14:10.:14:15.

the centre ground is. That's a tough one because no-one, I mean in

:14:15.:14:18.

her years in Opposition, no-one thought she would be able to do

:14:18.:14:21.

that. I don't think even she thought she could do that. No, I

:14:21.:14:25.

think that's probably true. always don't know if you can do it

:14:25.:14:29.

until you get into power. Knowing whether you can and knowing that

:14:29.:14:34.

you want to, those are two different things. What went through

:14:34.:14:37.

your mind for the period when you were leader of the Labour Party?

:14:37.:14:41.

don't think I will ever live through a more difficult personal

:14:41.:14:45.

period in politics. If you think about it, we were on the brink of

:14:45.:14:50.

the European elections, which we had planned, I was campaign

:14:50.:14:54.

coordinator, we had planned to use it as a dry run for the following

:14:54.:14:57.

general election. There I was a leader without a deputy, without a

:14:57.:15:03.

campaign coordinator on the brink of a nationwide election, and I say

:15:03.:15:07.

this with all, because I completely understand why it was the case, but

:15:07.:15:11.

without necessarily the enthusiasm among my colleagues that one might

:15:11.:15:16.

have hoped for. That's very polite. She's saving it for the memoirs.

:15:16.:15:20.

don't plan to write any. I know you've told me that before. That's

:15:20.:15:25.

a pity. That's what I told her. Maybe. What would you regard, let's

:15:25.:15:30.

stick on the Labour Party side on your own party side, what acts of

:15:30.:15:40.
:15:40.:15:46.

leadership in recent years, past Neil Kinnock understood that the

:15:46.:15:49.

Labour Party had to change dramatically. And he set about

:15:49.:15:58.

making sure that it happened. Tony Blair built on where male paved the

:15:58.:16:03.

way. Neal transformed the Labour Party, because I think, for the

:16:03.:16:05.

first time in British political history, he made us the party that

:16:05.:16:10.

was looking into years into the future and working back instead of

:16:10.:16:15.

reacting to this week's events and preparing the manifesto for the

:16:16.:16:21.

local elections. He provided a lot of leadership. Think of the Derek

:16:21.:16:29.

Hatton's speech. We all remember that conference. The problem for Ed

:16:29.:16:33.

Miliband is that the Tories will depict him as a meal Kinnock. Can

:16:33.:16:38.

you imagine this man standing on the steps of Downing Street? That is

:16:38.:16:42.

there election strategy. It could work, but I think too many Tories

:16:42.:16:48.

underestimate Ed Miliband. I am sure you are right. And what's more, they

:16:48.:16:52.

themselves are torn, because on the one hand, they say, isn't this a

:16:53.:16:57.

terrible man? Look, fratricide, he took on his own brother. For me, one

:16:57.:17:02.

of the things a leader has to have is a core of steel. I thought Ed

:17:02.:17:07.

should run for the leadership. I had no idea if he would. And when he

:17:07.:17:11.

did, for me, that was the moment. Yes, he has that steel core, because

:17:12.:17:18.

it was a hard thing to do. Would you agree that in this country, we have

:17:18.:17:25.

now come to regard leadership is synonymous with youth? Every new

:17:25.:17:31.

leader we choose tends to be younger than the leader stepping down. It

:17:31.:17:34.

contrasts with the United States, where the Republicans ran with

:17:34.:17:39.

Senator McCain, and he did pretty well. He was only a few percentage

:17:39.:17:45.

points behind Mr Obama. And Hillary Clinton could well be the next

:17:45.:17:51.

Democratic nominee. We don't seem to do that in this country. But it

:17:51.:17:56.

might be an accident, rather than a culture change. I take your point,

:17:56.:18:00.

at if you think about it, in the normal course of events, when we

:18:00.:18:04.

lost in 2010, some of the people who had been around the Cabinet table

:18:04.:18:10.

for a while probably would have been in the frame. But as it happened, we

:18:10.:18:15.

were also people who had been in opposition for many years and

:18:15.:18:21.

thought, been there, done that. And knowing just how hard work it is

:18:21.:18:27.

being in opposition, we said, let's leave it to the next person. It is

:18:27.:18:31.

completely chants. One of my criticisms of Margaret Thatcher's

:18:31.:18:34.

leadership, especially compared to Neil Kinnock's, is that one of the

:18:34.:18:38.

jobs of the leader is to prepare the ground for a potential successor,

:18:38.:18:43.

because there will be one one day. My feeling about her was that every

:18:43.:18:49.

time a successor pumped their head up, she disposed of them. If she had

:18:49.:18:55.

stayed in power six months longer, she would have had John Major out.

:18:55.:19:02.

Look what happened to Cecil Parkinson. Thank you for joining us.

:19:02.:19:05.

Tessa Jowell was on the Daily Politics earlier this week, and she

:19:05.:19:09.

revealed that a meeting had been arranged between Tony Blair and Ed

:19:09.:19:13.

Miliband. Nothing unusual about that, you might say, former Labour

:19:13.:19:19.

leader, current Labour leader. Relations between Mr Blair and Mr

:19:19.:19:23.

Miliband, given the timescale for him to win an election, looked

:19:23.:19:27.

pretty strained recently. Last week, Tony Blair used an article in the

:19:27.:19:32.

New Statesman to reveal that Labour risk falling into a comfort zone of

:19:32.:19:36.

opposing government cuts, simply becoming the repository for people's

:19:36.:19:42.

anger. A string of other Blairites including John Reid, who was on our

:19:42.:19:46.

own Sunday Politics, and David Blunkett, then spoke out to agree

:19:46.:19:50.

that Labour had to stick to the centre ground. Ed listened politely

:19:50.:19:54.

as a well brought up young chap. He had a meeting with his MPs earlier

:19:54.:19:58.

this week and responded to their advice. He said, we have to

:19:58.:20:03.

recognise that the next election has to be a change election. That means

:20:03.:20:09.

change from the past. He also told his party, we are like a football

:20:10.:20:18.

team that is winning at half-time. Is Labour winning and Ed Miliband?

:20:18.:20:22.

The party is ahead of the Tories in the opinion polls, as you would

:20:22.:20:26.

expect at this time in the electoral cycle, but not by a huge amount.

:20:26.:20:32.

Labour frets about how robust that lead is. Critics of Mr Miliband have

:20:32.:20:35.

pointed to a survey suggesting that this could be in spite of rather

:20:35.:20:42.

than because of his leadership. This gives him a net approval rating of

:20:42.:20:49.

-23, even worse than Mr Cameron's less than stellar -11. So, is there

:20:49.:20:53.

a serious question over whether Mr Miliband can win in 2015, or is this

:20:53.:21:00.

all just the storm in a Blairite teacup? We are joined now by Labour

:21:00.:21:10.
:21:10.:21:10.

commentator Dan Hodges and from the Fabian Society, Andrew Howell. Dan

:21:10.:21:14.

Hodges, when a lot of Labour people have sympathy for the Labour MP who

:21:14.:21:19.

said, I am not sure how much Tony Blair knows about what the British

:21:19.:21:23.

public feels these days. From the first-class lounge at terminal five,

:21:23.:21:32.

this Labour MP clearly does not know - I spend a lot of time in the first

:21:32.:21:35.

class lounge at terminal five, but he must be in the private jet

:21:35.:21:40.

lounge. You have your finger on the pulse of the budget people! You

:21:40.:21:46.

could look at it in two ways. You could say Tony Blair won three

:21:46.:21:48.

elections and has been the most successful Labour leader in

:21:48.:21:55.

political history. He knows what he's talking about. You could say,

:21:55.:22:01.

let's listen to the guy. What is interesting about Tony Blair's

:22:01.:22:05.

intervention is not that he is a back-seat driver making a grab for

:22:05.:22:09.

the steering wheel will stop he was actually tapping Ed Miliband on the

:22:09.:22:13.

shoulder and saying, I will get out and walk from here. What does that

:22:13.:22:18.

mean? Blair is a bit of a bellwether for Ed Miliband's political

:22:18.:22:25.

fortunes. When he has been on the up, we have had these briefings from

:22:25.:22:31.

totally behind-the-scenes. This was going the other way. This was Tony

:22:31.:22:33.

Blair selling shares in Ed Miliband's leadership. That is an

:22:33.:22:40.

indication of how Tony Blair thinks Labour's political fortunes are

:22:40.:22:48.

going, rightly or wrongly. So Tony Blair, John Reid, Tessa Jowell, they

:22:48.:22:54.

are all wrong? They are wrong. It is nearly 20 years since the 1997

:22:54.:22:58.

election, and a lot of people are trying to just fight the last war

:22:58.:23:02.

again. Things have changed massively since the New Labour period. Things

:23:02.:23:06.

have changed in terms of the economy, but also how politics is

:23:06.:23:10.

working. Labour is riding high in the polls, and that is not because

:23:10.:23:14.

it has attracted many conservative voters who voted for Mr Cameron in

:23:14.:23:21.

2010, it is rather despite of not having won many over. They have got

:23:21.:23:30.

together with the Liberal Democrats and got many voters who did not vote

:23:30.:23:34.

at all. Young voters are probably the most unreliable cohort in any

:23:34.:23:37.

election, because they tend not to turn out. That is why the next

:23:37.:23:41.

election will be all about organisation. We love to talk about

:23:41.:23:44.

Westminster, but Labour will win next time because they will have a

:23:45.:23:47.

much better organised and pain. It is doing a huge amount

:23:47.:23:53.

behind-the-scenes to get ready for that. But it is also important that

:23:53.:24:00.

we don't assume that that polling lead will collapse. It will be more

:24:01.:24:05.

robust than we expect precisely because Ed Miliband has not won over

:24:05.:24:08.

a large number of Conservative voters. He has got a few, which

:24:08.:24:13.

means there are more people ready to go back at the first sign of

:24:13.:24:18.

trouble. You think Ed Miliband has embarked on May 30 5% strategy, that

:24:18.:24:21.

because of the vagaries of our system, he can win an overall

:24:21.:24:28.

majority with only 35% of the vote? He has stumbled on the 35% strategy.

:24:28.:24:33.

Are you sure he has got one? That is the question. The starting point for

:24:33.:24:38.

Ed Miliband's strategy is that for political reasons, he cannot afford

:24:38.:24:43.

to shift the Labour Party for the left or make a grab for the block of

:24:43.:24:49.

Tory support. So he is left with the 29% he got last time and the Lib Dem

:24:49.:24:54.

refugees. And there was this ludicrous strategy of trying to

:24:54.:25:00.

build a winning election campaign on first-time voters. A great American

:25:00.:25:05.

political strategist said, show me a campaign based on first-time voters,

:25:05.:25:11.

and I will show you a losing campaign. But Labour can't appeal to

:25:11.:25:16.

Tory voters, so they somehow want to get another strategy. Mr Miliband's

:25:16.:25:23.

people deny that there is a 35% strategy. Dan is misunderstanding.

:25:23.:25:27.

The number 35% has come along because that is the worst case that

:25:27.:25:37.
:25:37.:25:38.

the Labour Party might face. In 2005, 30 5% in the polls lead to a

:25:38.:25:41.

government. But that is if everything goes wrong. All the

:25:41.:25:49.

support that Labour currently has would have to melt away. Ed is

:25:49.:25:53.

aiming for 40% or more in the polls, and he can do that by bringing

:25:53.:25:56.

together a coalition which should include some former Conservatives,

:25:56.:25:59.

but it does not need to be nearly as many as people like Dan seem to

:25:59.:26:08.

think. But do you think UKIP will get 14 or 15%. Even if UKIP

:26:08.:26:18.

collapses and the Lib Dems collapse, they could improve. The Lib Dems

:26:18.:26:24.

will get less. UKIP will get more. Rather than arguing about

:26:24.:26:30.

percentages, what is the evidence that the centre, at the moment, is

:26:30.:26:35.

moving left? The centre has moved left in terms of public opinion when

:26:35.:26:40.

it comes to economic elites and how we think about the top of society.

:26:40.:26:45.

There has not necessarily been a wave about a Gallic territory and is

:26:45.:26:48.

-- it Gallic Arianism, but people are angry about the way the economy

:26:48.:26:57.

is run. He said the one thing the coalition have going for themselves

:26:57.:26:59.

at the moment is that despite the failure of their economic strategy,

:26:59.:27:08.

they think they can do better than Mr Balls and Mr Miliband. Where Dan

:27:08.:27:11.

and I would agree is that any Labour opposition has to demonstrate its

:27:11.:27:21.
:27:21.:27:26.

economic credibility, and that is not about left or right. The reality

:27:26.:27:30.

is, the political centre on welfare has moved right. The political

:27:30.:27:37.

centre on Europe and immigration has moved right. On the economy, it has

:27:37.:27:42.

also moved right. The Labour Party can say it hasn't, but it has. When

:27:42.:27:46.

will the Labour Party face up to this? Now, or the day after the next

:27:46.:27:54.

general election? The centre ground has moved left on some issues like

:27:54.:28:01.

how we run the economy. Then why are the Tories still ahead on economic

:28:01.:28:07.

issues? For Labour to win a majority, you need a group of people

:28:07.:28:10.

who are more left-leaning than they were because of the collapse of

:28:10.:28:15.

other left forces. You will not get a majority simply by banker bashing

:28:16.:28:20.

and promoting the politics of envy. That is a danger for Labour. The

:28:20.:28:24.

elephant in the room here is Ed Balls. He is actually a talented

:28:24.:28:28.

politician, but it was a mistake for Ed Miliband to make him Shadow

:28:29.:28:34.

Chancellor. You saw in the new statesman that it is thought that Ed

:28:34.:28:38.

Balls will be moved before the next election. To restore economic

:28:38.:28:42.

credibility, you either get a policy that people can accept, or you

:28:42.:28:46.

change the personalities. I think there is an increasing likelihood

:28:46.:28:48.

that Alistair Darling will be brought back. Ed Balls clearly would

:28:48.:28:54.

not like that. At Ed Balls clearly has not go down well with a lot of

:28:54.:28:59.

the electorate. I like him, he is a great politician, but does he

:28:59.:29:02.

resonate with Essex man almost a woman? I don't know.

:29:02.:29:12.
:29:12.:29:13.

We need to move on. Otherwise, you will be arguing all the way to 2015.

:29:13.:29:17.

Another conservative woman was dominating the political press.

:29:17.:29:20.

Theresa May gave a speech which many thought was a sign that she was on

:29:20.:29:22.

leadership manoeuvres. This morning, she was in front of the

:29:22.:29:25.

home affairs select committee, answering questions about Abu Qatada

:29:25.:29:32.

again. And also are medications of the Boston macaques and security for

:29:32.:29:40.

this Sunday's London Marathon. fair to say that nobody has yet been

:29:40.:29:43.

identified as being responsible for the incidents that took place in

:29:43.:29:47.

Boston. There has been press reporting about the investigation

:29:47.:29:52.

that has been taking place by the Americans to identify the

:29:52.:29:58.

perpetrators. We have looked at the plans for the London Marathon in the

:29:59.:30:08.

light of that, and they have made appropriate arrangements. A year ago

:30:08.:30:12.

yesterday exactly, you told the house, I believe that assurances and

:30:12.:30:16.

the information we have gathered will mean that we can soon put Abu

:30:16.:30:20.

Qatada on a plane and get him out of the country for good. Why is he

:30:20.:30:28.

still here? Frustratingly, we thought we had the assurances we

:30:28.:30:35.

needed from the Jordanian authorities. Those assurances were

:30:35.:30:44.

accepted when the case went back. And it was made clear that the

:30:44.:30:46.

Jordanian authorities would bend over backwards to make sure there

:30:46.:30:56.
:30:56.:31:20.

We are responding to that specific issue as I say. What is most

:31:21.:31:25.

frustrating of course, is that the majority of assurances that we

:31:25.:31:32.

obtained from the Jordanian Government were accepted by SIAC.

:31:32.:31:36.

What has this cost the taxpayer? don't have a figure for you as to

:31:36.:31:39.

what the current cost is. What was the last time, you must have asked

:31:39.:31:42.

this question, the last time you had your officials roupbldz the

:31:42.:31:49.

table and you said "How much has it all costs?" Is it now in millions?

:31:49.:31:54.

My faem SIS, chairman, whenever I have anybody round the table, is

:31:54.:32:01.

how can we ensure we can deport this individual. That was the Home

:32:01.:32:07.

Secretary this morning before the Select Committee. We're joined Iain

:32:07.:32:10.

Dale has been with us since the start of the programme. When you

:32:10.:32:15.

look at this now, you see how just as Labour Home Secretaries before

:32:15.:32:19.

her, they have no power to get rid of this man, do they?. No, the Home

:32:19.:32:23.

Office is a bed of nails for anybody. Most people think treelza

:32:23.:32:29.

May has been quite a success in this job. She is going to be

:32:29.:32:35.

defined in part as to whether she gets rid of this man. If she does,

:32:35.:32:39.

she will have made a reputation on the benches and will be considered

:32:39.:32:45.

a leadership candidate. At the moment there are no Mayites in the

:32:45.:32:49.

party. There aren't backbenchers promoting her cause. If he pulls

:32:49.:32:53.

this off, I don't see how she can, but if shi does, her reputation

:32:53.:32:58.

will go into the stratosphere. It's a tough mountain to climb. She

:32:58.:33:03.

can't give any time table. At some stage somebody is going to say it's

:33:03.:33:11.

costing us more to get rid of him than to keep imhad. She's made a

:33:11.:33:15.

gamble. She's staking her entire political future on this case. A

:33:15.:33:18.

lot of Tories want somebody to emerge to fight Boris Johnson.

:33:18.:33:24.

There isn't a huge amount of leadership chatter, but what there

:33:24.:33:30.

is is all around Boris Johnson. She's often mentioned as a

:33:30.:33:32.

potential leader of the Conservative Party, a female leader,

:33:32.:33:35.

but that, I would suggest is because she is the best known of

:33:35.:33:41.

all Conservatives at the moment. Are there other female

:33:41.:33:46.

Conservatives who could be up for the job? Not now. I think...I'm

:33:47.:33:51.

thinking after 2015. Four, five years' time, I have a few that the

:33:52.:33:55.

next leader of the Conservative Party is probably not even in the

:33:55.:33:58.

Cabinet yet. I don't mean Boris Johnson, maybe somebody who isn't

:33:58.:34:02.

even a minister yet. Somebody in the 2010 intake who will make their

:34:02.:34:08.

reputation in the next two, three years. Names?A lot of people talk

:34:08.:34:18.
:34:18.:34:19.

about Andrea Ledson. Or Jesy Norman. Pr eti pattel? Maybe, possibly.

:34:19.:34:24.

There are a lot of names out there, but none that have put their heads

:34:24.:34:29.

above the parapet. What do you think the row laigsship is like

:34:29.:34:34.

between Mr Cameron -- what the relationship is like between Mr

:34:34.:34:40.

Cram Ron and Mrs May. I'm told it's quite frosty at the moment. Earlier

:34:40.:34:44.

this month, once again talks between Iran and six world powers

:34:44.:34:50.

collapsed without agreement on Iran's nuclear future. The Iranian

:34:50.:34:53.

President, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, said in the day's after the talks,

:34:53.:34:57.

western nations have tried their jut most to prevent Iran from going

:34:57.:35:02.

nuclear. But Iran has gone nuclear. That was the President. The

:35:02.:35:06.

negotiations between Iran and the six powers, the UK, the Usmani,

:35:06.:35:12.

France, Germany, Russia and -- the USA, France, Germany, Russia and

:35:12.:35:17.

China, have been going on for a decade. There are sanctions,

:35:17.:35:21.

including curbs on financial transactions from crude oil exports,

:35:21.:35:26.

which are its main source of overseas revenue. The Iranians say

:35:26.:35:30.

their nuclear programme is purely peaceful energy and Medsical

:35:30.:35:35.

purposes and that it has a right to process uranium for reactor fuel

:35:35.:35:45.
:35:45.:35:45.

under the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty. But the head of Iran's

:35:46.:35:49.

Atomic Energy Organisation said this week that Iran may, in the

:35:49.:35:54.

future, need highly enriched uranium to power submarines, which

:35:54.:35:58.

would then be a relatively small technical step to weapons grade

:35:58.:36:04.

uranium. I'm joined by two guests who have published books on Iranian

:36:04.:36:11.

- Iran's ambitions Peter Oborne and it's your view that Iran is not

:36:11.:36:15.

heading or trying to build a nuclear deterrent is that right?

:36:15.:36:20.

It's not just my view, it's the view of US intelligence, probably

:36:20.:36:27.

the view of Israeli intelligence. It's the view of the IAEA, they all

:36:27.:36:36.

say, serm American intelligence that Iran $not have an active --

:36:36.:36:42.

Iranians do not an -- have an active nuclear programme. This was

:36:42.:36:47.

said in the national intelligence estimate report is clear about it.

:36:47.:36:52.

You believe that Iran's nuclear programme is purely for peaceful

:36:52.:36:56.

purposes? I cannot say to you, and nobody can say that it is purely

:36:56.:37:02.

for peaceful purposes. Nobody can say they are not actually, nobody

:37:02.:37:07.

can prove it, I cannot be clear. But the intelligence people seem to

:37:07.:37:11.

be saying that there is no active nuclear weapons programme and that

:37:11.:37:16.

we would know if there was one. Aren't these the same intelligence

:37:16.:37:20.

people that told us Saddam had lots of weapons of mass destruction?

:37:20.:37:25.

Indeed. Intelligence can get things wrong. But I think it is worthy of

:37:25.:37:29.

note that US intelligence does not believe at present that there is an

:37:29.:37:33.

active programme. What's your view on this? There is no doubt at all,

:37:33.:37:39.

and I speak as someone who was a judge, that they were up to a

:37:39.:37:48.

nuclear weapons programme until 2003. They had... I can accept that.

:37:48.:37:53.

They had... The father of the Pakistani bomb. Yes. The Sunni

:37:53.:37:58.

Islam bomb. He was brought in and paid millions to develop a nuclear

:37:58.:38:03.

weapons programme. They stopped their nuclear weapons programme in

:38:03.:38:08.

2003, after they had been outed, after the lies that they had told

:38:08.:38:15.

were exposed. Have they start today again? They had an Aladdin's cave.

:38:15.:38:20.

You both agree up to 2003. wouldn't put it nearly as strongly.

:38:20.:38:25.

You can't be as difintive as Geoffrey is now. I think they were

:38:25.:38:29.

going for gold in the nuclear stakes. That's an opinion. I think

:38:29.:38:33.

if you were prosecuting barrister, you're the best QC in Britain, you

:38:33.:38:43.

would destroy what you've just said in court. I think 2003 to 2005 they

:38:43.:38:47.

were terrified that America was going to invade and George Bush

:38:47.:38:53.

virtually was, it came very close. Then in 2006, we got the lies again.

:38:53.:39:02.

We got the facility they didn't disclose. In recent years the IAEA

:39:02.:39:06.

has not said that they're not developing, it said there is

:39:06.:39:15.

evidence that they are going for weaponisation at -- and do they

:39:15.:39:23.

allow the IAEA to investigate? No. Why wouldn't you let them? Not you

:39:23.:39:28.

personally, the Iranians? report would be destroyed in court

:39:28.:39:34.

totally. The word alleged appears 27 or 28 times. You'd be perfectly

:39:34.:39:39.

at home on that. You would destroy it. What I, can I just go back a

:39:39.:39:44.

little bit. Let me go into the background of this. The fundamental

:39:44.:39:48.

purpose of the book I published today, actually It's quite a small

:39:48.:39:54.

book. It's not as big as mine! My book is bigger than yours. His book

:39:54.:40:00.

is extraordinary. Size is not everything. Indeed. I published

:40:00.:40:04.

that one, not that one. You better be quiet. Carry on. I think that

:40:04.:40:12.

there is a demonisation ofive Republican going on. I think -- of

:40:12.:40:17.

Iran going on. I think it's portrayed as an aggressive country

:40:17.:40:20.

which refuses to cooperate with the rest of the world. If you look at

:40:20.:40:24.

the record, we show in our little book that there was a very

:40:24.:40:30.

comprehensive deal offered by Iran in 2005, offering the West or

:40:30.:40:35.

however you want to use that term, pretty well full access to

:40:35.:40:39.

everything they're doing, oversight of it. They would co-ownership on

:40:39.:40:44.

one occasion and that was reputiated. It was repudiated by

:40:44.:40:48.

Britain and the United States, I guess, on the grounds that they

:40:48.:40:52.

couldn't have one centrifuge running. What do you say to that?

:40:52.:40:57.

think this book is, it's arguments against some of the Bush regime

:40:57.:41:00.

policies are terrific, but there are only two lines, two lines about

:41:01.:41:06.

Iran's human rights record. This is a criminal regime. It killed 7,000

:41:06.:41:10.

prisoners. This particular regime, this particular President, who is

:41:10.:41:15.

now the Supreme Leader, it ran an international assassination

:41:15.:41:20.

campaign in which this Supreme Leader authorised 168 killings,

:41:20.:41:25.

assassinations. Of course, the 2009, they pretended that Ahmadinejad had

:41:25.:41:28.

won the election. They killed hundreds of demonstrators, tortured

:41:29.:41:31.

many more. Virtually every human rights lawyer in Iran is now

:41:32.:41:36.

serving eight years in prison. So you cannot ignore the fact...

:41:36.:41:40.

What's the response to that. That the regime who says it doesn't want

:41:40.:41:44.

nuclear weapons, lied about the elections, lied about being no

:41:44.:41:50.

torture. Firstly, we are changing the -- subject to human rights.

:41:50.:41:55.

It's part of it. It's incredibly important subject. What's your

:41:55.:41:59.

response that? I guess he's saying this a country that can behave like

:41:59.:42:03.

that why wouldn't it want nuclear weapons? I would be careful talking

:42:03.:42:06.

in the strong terms in which Geoffrey Robertson is doing. If you

:42:06.:42:11.

read and I do think we should all read. There's a wonderful book

:42:11.:42:20.

Going to Tehran by two former CIA officials, who dealt in this area.

:42:20.:42:24.

It answers, if you read chapter six of that book and still go on saying

:42:24.:42:30.

those 2009 elections were fixed, I think you're, you will not be

:42:30.:42:33.

convinced. What about hanging homosexuals? I don't know about

:42:33.:42:39.

that. They do, do they not? I've spent six months interviewing

:42:39.:42:45.

victims and witnesses to the 1988 prison, thousands of people killed.

:42:45.:42:51.

I have no doubt at all that this is an internationally criminally

:42:51.:42:56.

regime. If it gives itself impunity for killing thousands of prisoners,

:42:56.:43:05.

well... Don't they want President Sadat to hold onto power in --

:43:05.:43:13.

Assad to hold onto power? I'm sure they're aligned with him. We've

:43:13.:43:18.

broadened it here. What we're talking about with Iran, Syria and

:43:18.:43:23.

so forth, is this interesting and important conflict which dominates

:43:23.:43:27.

the modern world between Saadi and the Gulf States and Shia, Iran. It

:43:27.:43:32.

needs to be understood better than it is. Why are we on the side of

:43:32.:43:36.

Saudi, which is ghast live on human rights, where women can't drive a

:43:36.:43:41.

car. Lots of women drive cars in Iran. 63%, when last looked of

:43:42.:43:46.

university students in Tehran are women. It's a much, much more

:43:46.:43:52.

liberal society. Liberal?I know that - There are a number of women

:43:52.:43:58.

in prison for ten years for human rights lawyers. If we compare Iran

:43:58.:44:02.

to the record of Saudi Arabia, our great ally... That's a kind of ugly

:44:02.:44:07.

baby contest, isn't it? I am worried. Big up the human rights of

:44:07.:44:17.
:44:17.:44:19.

Saudi Arabia and Iran. It will... The Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt

:44:19.:44:27.

will develop a bomb. They help to bank roll the pack -- Pakistan bomb

:44:27.:44:31.

in the first place. Give us your view on this interesting argument.

:44:31.:44:37.

Peter has written brilliantly about being Zimbabwe, made documentaries

:44:37.:44:42.

about Mugabe and exposed their human rights records. The

:44:42.:44:46.

impression you've given is that you're giving Iran a free pass on

:44:46.:44:51.

these human rights issues. A final word. I've accepted there are many

:44:51.:44:55.

questions that need to be asked about Iran, but what I have tried

:44:55.:45:00.

to do is say, if you look back ten years and the certainty about WMD

:45:00.:45:03.

and now we have the similar rhetoric and certainties about what

:45:03.:45:08.

Iran is up to, I'd say, all I'm trying to do really is say let's

:45:08.:45:14.

examine the evidence. All I said is as night follows day, if Iran has a

:45:14.:45:19.

nuclear bomb, if that becomes established the Saudis will buy.

:45:19.:45:23.

I'm all favour of examining the evidence, but the evidence is that

:45:23.:45:28.

Iran is positioning itself to move to a nuclear weapon within a few

:45:28.:45:33.

months, but it doesn't have one yet. The problem how we stop it. I will

:45:33.:45:37.

challenge that as well. The battle of the books. We'll leave it to you.

:45:37.:45:42.

Gentlemen, thank you. I forgot, we were doing the Theresa may to

:45:42.:45:45.

welcome Scottish viewers who finished first ministers questions.

:45:45.:45:48.

Hello, nice to see you. Now from one perennial international

:45:48.:45:52.

disagreement to another, the EU budget. There's a row brewing in

:45:52.:45:56.

Brussels. You'll find that hard to believe I know. It is a certainty.

:45:56.:45:59.

Even Peter Oborne might have to agree with. It it's about the

:45:59.:46:04.

budget. MEPs have warned that Governments including the UK might

:46:04.:46:07.

need to stump up billions more to keep the budget on track. There's

:46:07.:46:11.

always at times like this I like to send my best people to Europe to

:46:11.:46:16.

find out more, no expenses spared trip, which is why Jo Co joins us

:46:16.:46:26.
:46:26.:46:28.

Here, the demand from the European commission for an extra 1.2 billion

:46:28.:46:33.

euros to fill a shortfall in funding this year has been met with a

:46:33.:46:37.

certain amount of this made by member states. It was a proposal

:46:37.:46:41.

that was discussed by MEPs here in Strasberg earlier this week. Two of

:46:41.:46:50.

them join me now, the Dutch Liberal MEP and a British Tory MEP. 11.2

:46:50.:46:54.

billion euros sounds a lot of money, but there are reports that it could

:46:54.:47:01.

be higher. What have you heard? can only take care of what is

:47:01.:47:09.

officially announced. In October, there was talk of an extra 16

:47:09.:47:15.

billion. But at the moment, the commission thinks that 11.2 billion

:47:15.:47:23.

is sufficient. Why should member states stump up 11.2 or even 16

:47:23.:47:28.

billion euros? Because they have authorised certain expenditure for

:47:28.:47:35.

themselves in the first place. They have authorised themselves to do it.

:47:35.:47:39.

The bills came in too late. They should have arrived earlier. Because

:47:39.:47:48.

they came too late, we sent back to the member states 13 billion euros.

:47:48.:47:53.

So the 11.2 is still something that has to be paid. So bills have to be

:47:53.:47:58.

paid. Projects have to be signed off, there was no alternative but to

:47:59.:48:07.

cough up the money? I don't think this is true in reality. Do you not

:48:07.:48:11.

believe the commission? Well, I don't, because the figures the

:48:11.:48:16.

commission gives are totally unreliable. Last year, in October,

:48:16.:48:22.

first they said they needed 6 billion, than 9 billion. Suddenly, a

:48:22.:48:28.

16 billion amount has come up. But actually, they should have a record

:48:28.:48:32.

in their account of what has been committed legally and what they need

:48:32.:48:35.

to pay according to those commitments. Haven't they got

:48:35.:48:43.

invoices? They are not shown to MEPs at all. I doubt they are shown to

:48:43.:48:46.

the member states. But you could easily go to the member states and

:48:46.:48:52.

say, please raise a demand for such an amount. The issue here is that

:48:52.:48:57.

there was a budget agreed for 2013, and you cannot come three months

:48:57.:49:05.

later and say, we want 8% more of what you gave us at the beginning of

:49:05.:49:11.

the year. It is ridiculous. They should be able to determine the

:49:11.:49:15.

needs when there is negotiation. Isn't that a fair point? How can

:49:15.:49:18.

there be such a massive miscalculation? Why don't they know

:49:18.:49:23.

what they need at the beginning of every year? In the first place, we

:49:23.:49:27.

always have to verify what the commission is presenting us. So you

:49:27.:49:34.

would want to see the invoices, to? Not every invoice, but we have to

:49:34.:49:39.

justify it. But when we accepted last December the budget for 2013,

:49:39.:49:49.
:49:49.:49:54.

we knew it was not enough. But not to the level of 11 billion. We knew

:49:54.:50:02.

it was not enough, but we wanted to give the member states time to make

:50:02.:50:06.

up their mind. But we expect from the commission early in the next

:50:06.:50:12.

year a new budget to account for the shortfall. And the president of the

:50:12.:50:18.

Parliament asked the president of the Council, do you agree? And the

:50:18.:50:22.

president of the Council, on behalf of the member states, said yes.

:50:22.:50:26.

it comes to a vote in the European Parliament, will you support member

:50:26.:50:33.

states paying up 11.2 billion euros? Yes, if the justification is

:50:33.:50:39.

enough. We have to verify the figures of the commission, but I

:50:39.:50:44.

think that if you sign a contract, you have to pay for it. You

:50:44.:50:48.

obviously have obligations to pay up. You knew there would be a

:50:48.:50:51.

shortfall. How much would Britain have to pay to contribute to the

:50:51.:50:58.

shortfall? Around 2 billion euros more. Why so much? There are 27

:50:58.:51:03.

member states. Because of the percentage they have to pay. The UK

:51:04.:51:09.

is a net contributor, and many of the other countries which will

:51:09.:51:14.

receive this 11th billion are net recipients. 2 billion euros from

:51:14.:51:19.

Britain? What do you think David Cameron should do? He should refuse

:51:19.:51:24.

to pay these invoices. He agreed on a certain amount of cash that he was

:51:24.:51:32.

going to put in. The commission should not allow projects to be

:51:32.:51:36.

started if they exceed the amount of cash that the member states agreed

:51:36.:51:40.

in December. But the budget committee chairman has warned that

:51:41.:51:45.

the commission could become insolvent unless the full amount is

:51:45.:51:53.

met by member states. This is not true. The commission should stop

:51:53.:51:59.

projects that they don't have money to pay for. What the commission has

:51:59.:52:03.

done is continue to put through commitments, legal obligations for

:52:03.:52:08.

projects that exceed the amount of money they were going to get from

:52:08.:52:12.

the member states. Isn't it worrying that actually, this is a political

:52:12.:52:18.

issue? The British Liberal Democrat MEP has said it is a political

:52:18.:52:21.

statement on an estimate of what is needed in budgetary terms. Is that

:52:21.:52:27.

fair? We have to verify if that is true. But if you look at the amount

:52:27.:52:30.

of commitments that have been approved by member states and by the

:52:30.:52:37.

Parliament, it is much more than we are asking now because we have a

:52:37.:52:45.

backlog in commitments of something like 230 billion that has been

:52:45.:52:48.

approved by member states to be incremented. The only solution is

:52:48.:52:52.

that you commit less money, that you do not commit money if you are not

:52:52.:52:59.

sure you campaign for it. That is what I am saying. That is what the

:53:00.:53:06.

liberal group has done for the last two years. And we were the only

:53:06.:53:11.

group that supported it. Well, good for the Liberals. Let me finish it

:53:11.:53:14.

there. As always with these budgetary disagreements, they will

:53:14.:53:18.

continue, Andrew. At least it keeps us in a job.

:53:19.:53:26.

Now, the charity behind a network of food banks says it has fed more than

:53:26.:53:29.

290,000 people in the last financial year. The Department for

:53:29.:53:32.

environment, food and rural affairs has commissioned research into the

:53:33.:53:37.

reasons why people end up needing food aid. It has become a subject

:53:37.:53:41.

that is raised regularly at Prime Minister's Questions by Labour

:53:41.:53:45.

backbenchers anxious to embarrass the prime minister. So what is

:53:45.:53:55.
:53:55.:53:55.

behind this growing trend? I have been struggling a bit financially.

:53:55.:54:00.

This is this woman's first time at a food bank. She has four children and

:54:00.:54:04.

is on income support. The money I get, I can't provide for the house

:54:04.:54:10.

fold. Here in south London, there is a food bank twice a week. People:

:54:10.:54:13.

Only pick up food if they have qualified for a voucher. Lorraine

:54:13.:54:17.

has to choose between paying for food or electricity, and tells me

:54:17.:54:23.

this was her last resort. I knew about the food banks, but I was kind

:54:23.:54:30.

of embarrassed, and I wanted to see if I could survive without it. Then

:54:30.:54:37.

a friend of mine told me about it, so I thought, no, I am not going to

:54:37.:54:41.

go without. We need this for the family. This food bank is one of

:54:41.:54:44.

more than 300 around the country set up by the trust or trust. It says

:54:44.:54:52.

the number of people it is feeding has risen from 40,000 in 2009-10 to

:54:52.:54:56.

290,000 in 2012-13. But is that down to increased need or better access

:54:56.:55:03.

to food banks? We are worked hard to roll them out. So one and so is our

:55:03.:55:07.

effort. The other issue is straightforward. We are in a deep

:55:07.:55:11.

recession. We have not seen anything like this in this country for

:55:11.:55:16.

perhaps 100 years. As a consequence, lots more people are in

:55:16.:55:21.

deep need. The government has been doing research into who is accessing

:55:21.:55:24.

food aid and why. David Cameron has claimed that the coalition has done

:55:24.:55:30.

more than labour to help people get access to food banks. One thing

:55:30.:55:34.

Labour refuse to do which we have done is actually to allow job

:55:34.:55:38.

centres to point people towards food banks if they need them. But the

:55:38.:55:41.

trust or trust says that close to 45% of the people who come to food

:55:41.:55:44.

banks have been referred here because of delays or changes to

:55:44.:55:50.

their benefits. We are already beginning to see the people who have

:55:50.:55:57.

got changes due to the bedroom tax who already know that they will be

:55:57.:56:03.

affected and are trying to work out how to pay that extra. The Labour MP

:56:03.:56:07.

here in Norwood says the coalition is to blame. It is the actions of

:56:07.:56:12.

this government that have increased the demand by families in poverty on

:56:12.:56:17.

food banks. And it will get worse with changes to the social fund.

:56:17.:56:20.

this Conservative MP tells me benefit changes are not the reason

:56:20.:56:25.

that people are turning to food banks. The main thing is that the

:56:25.:56:30.

cost of living has really hit people. The benefit system has

:56:30.:56:34.

continued to function. Benefits have been paid and we do everything we

:56:34.:56:39.

can to minimise delays. The purpose of bringing in universal credit is

:56:39.:56:42.

to simplify the benefit system and make it clear to people that they

:56:42.:56:47.

are better off in work. The cost of living was Lorraine's reason for

:56:47.:56:54.

coming here. These bags of food will ease things for her family for now.

:56:54.:57:00.

You do a phone in show. Does this come up? It does. A few months ago,

:57:00.:57:05.

I did an hour on this, wondering if anyone would phone in, but we have a

:57:05.:57:09.

full switchboard almost immediately from people who had used food banks

:57:09.:57:13.

and people who had never heard of them. It is a comparatively recent

:57:13.:57:17.

phenomenon. They did not exist about eight or nine years ago. And the

:57:18.:57:21.

more you have, they almost create a demand. People who don't know that

:57:21.:57:27.

they exist will not use them. But they are now mentioned a lot in the

:57:27.:57:31.

press. Fundamentally, I suppose everybody wishes there was no need

:57:31.:57:35.

for them, but well done to the trusts or trust for providing them.

:57:35.:57:38.

Given that there is clearly a need for them, it is embarrassing for the

:57:38.:57:43.

government. I guess it is an embarrassment for society as a

:57:43.:57:47.

whole. It is a failure of the benefit system to cope with people

:57:47.:57:51.

who have the need. They are actually quite rigorous about who they give

:57:51.:57:56.

food to. Quite a lot of people go a long, asking for food, and they get

:57:56.:58:00.

refused because they are not entitled to it. That is tough. I am

:58:00.:58:05.

told there was a bit of fraud that goes on, which is sad as well.

:58:05.:58:10.

sense there will be more of them before we see the demise of them.

:58:10.:58:14.

Absolutely. They are only in certain parts of the country at the moment,

:58:14.:58:18.

and I suspect we will see a proliferation of them over the next

:58:18.:58:23.

few years. Thank you for being with us. That is it for today. The one

:58:23.:58:29.

o'clock News is starting an BBC One. I will be back on BBC One with

:58:29.:58:35.

Michael Portillo, Jacqui Smith and Andrew Walmsley at 11.35 after

:58:35.:58:39.

Question Time tonight. Then I will be back here again, there was no

:58:39.:58:45.

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