07/05/2013 Daily Politics


07/05/2013

Jo Coburn and Andrew Neil are joined by the former home secretary Alan Johnson to look ahead to the Queen's Speech, as well as all the latest political news, interviews and debate.


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Daily Politics. Westminster is gearing up for the big event, the

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Queen's Speech tomorrow. We will have the lowdown on what the

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government is planning for the year ahead, and what it is not.

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The speech won't include a commitment to any EU referendum,

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despite today's call for one from former Chancellor Nigel Lawson. We

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will discuss the pressure on camera and over Europe.

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The government is pressing ahead with plans to sell off the Royal

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mail, or at least part of it. We will speak to the Business

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Secretary, Vince Cable. We will hear from one MP kicking up a stink about

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some cheese. That is all coming up in the next

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hour. With us for the duration, former Labour Home Secretary Alan

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Johnson. It is so good to see you in daylight! I was beginning to wonder

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if you were allowed out during the day.

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Let's start with the news over the weekend of the arrest of the Deputy

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Speaker of Parliament Nigel Evans. He is accused by two men of rape and

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sexual assault, charges leave a and Lee denies. Let's get the latest

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from Carole Walker. -- charges he is a are mentally denies. Nigel Evans

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will be holding a press briefing in the next couple of hours. We believe

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he will simply be -- simply be outside the Houses of Parliament

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that he is getting on with his job as an MP, attending meetings as

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Deputy Speaker even though we know he will not be sitting in the chair

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in the Commons for the Jura Asian of the debate on the Queen's Speech,

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which will go on until the middle of next week -- for the Jura Asian of

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the debate. Here is not hiding away from the allegations, which he has

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described as completely false. He has a lot of support from fellow

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MPs, but I understand that behind-the-scenes there is concern

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that the office of Speaker and Deputy Speaker should not be in

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anyway caught up with controversy. Nigel Evans was elected by fellow

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MPs, it is up to the House of Commons what happens to him in the

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future. Because he is one of the first Deputy Speakers elected in

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this way, the rules and mechanisms are not entirely clear about if it

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was considered best for him to step aside. There will be meetings to try

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to clarify that, but for the time being the hope is that Nigel Evans

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will not sit in the chair for the next week or so. After that there

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are only if you parliamentary days before recess, so perhaps the matter

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:03:31.:03:37.

can be left for a fewer weeks until it is

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The principle is interesting. Should those accused of this sort of sexual

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offence, arrested but not charged, and it looks like he won't be,

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should they have anonymity at least until they have been charged?

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don't think so. This was a coalition policy, no one knows where it

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emerged from, it was not in any manifesto. But that was in the

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coalition agreement. It took about two months for them to do an

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inelegant U-turn. They are not going to do it now. There was a real body

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of opinion that said, why should rape be the only crime, not murder,

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not child abuse, not a fraud, where the defendant has anonymity? And the

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other body of evidence suggests that many women, seeing the defendant,

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most people guilty of rape have raped other women, and that was a

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:04:47.:04:48.

big factor in many high-profile rape cases, the fact that other women

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came forward, such as that taxi driver in London, other people came

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forward. The Associaton of Chief Police Officers, they say they want

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to end, quote, the bizarre power game where journalists try to come

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out with the names of people. They talk about a blanket ban on names

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being released. When Quentin Blunt, then the minister, withdrew

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anonymity for rape defendant, he did so on the basis that they would look

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at trying to find a way that these names would not come out in the

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media and through the police. There was another way of tackling this.

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Nothing much has happened, this might spark it off. For the

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government to decide there is a problem because an MP happens to be

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the person alleged to have committed the offence, as opposed to all the

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others, it looks like, we don't mind anyone else, but when it is an MP...

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Is it not a wee bit suspicious that the press were tipped off in time to

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get to Pendleton, not a major press hope, photographs of the police

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going through his car, they knew exactly where the car was parked and

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all the rest. You have a very suspicious mind, it had not even

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crossed my mind. Who knows? Knack of the yardstick datapath. Could well

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have been. You and your suspicious mind. Put it to good use, it is time

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for our quiz. Writing in The Times today, former Conservative

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Chancellor Nigel Lawson says it is time for Britain to quit the

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European Union, but which former Prime Minister does he think David

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Cameron is following in the footsteps of? Is it Harold Wilson,

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John Major, Margaret Thatcher or Gordon Brown? At the end of the

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show, we'll have the correct answer. If I know, Alan knows! That is for

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sure! Last week the Government signalled its intention to sell off

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some more of the state's family silver. At least that is what Harold

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Macmillan called it. Downing Street's famous 'nudge unit' was

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mentioned - it's been thinking up clever schemes to nudge people to do

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things like pay their council tax bills on time. And ministers talked

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of dozens of other areas of government which could be sold into

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the private sector. But the real biggie was the Royal Mail. Last

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Monday the Business Minister Michael Fallon announced he was about to

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start hiring banks to handle the sale of the national postal service,

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a move made possible by the Postal Services Act passed two years ago.

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The government's preferred option is to float the company on the stock

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market, but it's not clear what percentage of the business will be

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sold initially. Another option on the cards could be selling a stake

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to a private buyer. The Royal Mail is estimated to be worth between �2

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and �3 billion pounds. If the sale goes ahead, Michael Fallon has

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confirmed that 10% of shares would be reserved for Royal Mail staff -

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although it's not clear whether they would get a discount. Trade unions

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are opposed to the move. The General Secretary of the TUC, Frances

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O'Grady, says that the Government wants to wreck the Royal Mail. And

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campaigners have warned that if the service is sold off, the price of a

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a first class stamp could rocket from 60p to �1.

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The Business Secretary Vince Cable is with us. You have kept away from

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us, you don't call or write! Happy to come on the programme! Happy to

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have you. I never thought you would be more Thatcher than Thatcher,

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Thatcher said she was not prepared to sell off the Royal Mail eco-she

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was, quote, not prepared to have the Queens head privatised. -- the

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Queen's head. Bee under Labour, there was a recognition that there

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was a problem with Royal Mail. There needed to be a lot of investment. A

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:09:01.:09:01.

report was produced. One element was bringing in private capital, that is

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what they are doing. There is nothing new or surprising. Mr Farage

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has said so, but you are his boss, that the preferred route for the

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government is an initial public offering, that a chunk of Royal Mail

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stock would be sold? Correct.Any idea what percentage? We are aiming

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to sell the majority, the simple reason is that Royal Mail will need

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to raise capital and modernise, in order to do that it needs to get

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itself off the public accounts. At the moment it competes with schools

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and hospitals in capital spending. So Royal Mail spending shows up in

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public debts? The only way around that is to have some private

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ownership. Your manifesto says you can only sell off 49 %. We had a

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debate before the last election. My colleagues wanted a more cautious

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approach. You wanted more than 49 %? We did at the time -- I did at the

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time. You will sell off more than 50 %, but on top of that ten % will go

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to the workers, but how? Will they have to buy shares? Will they be

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donating shares? We still have to bottom this out. We have to speak to

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the communication workers union. We are determined that there should be

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a workers stake in the new Royal Mail. It will be good for them and

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:10:55.:10:56.

the company. But they could shell the stairs. -- sell the shares off.

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Let's say you sell 51 %, then another ten % goes to the

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workforce, we are up to 61 %, does the remaining 31 -- 39 % stay with

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the government for a period? The aim is to sell off as much private

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capital as we need to. It is open, we want to keep our options open

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with potential buyers and the mechanics of the sale. Former

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postman Alan Johnson, what do you make of this? I'm a Thatcherite on

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Royal Mail privatisation. 20 years ago, I think it was the right thing

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to oppose, and I think it is now. Vince says quite rightly that the

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problem is how you borrow to get capital into the Royal Mail, and it

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appears on the government's balance sheet, but the profits of Royal Mail

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also help to build schools and hospitals. What has happened where

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there is a broad consensus, the pension fund moved on to government

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bills rather than weighing Darren Royal Mail, the change in the

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regulator has transformed Royal Mail, and a great CEO. Their

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operation treble -- profits have trebled in just a few years. There

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is a danger that they are selling off a very important part of the

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infrastructure and, I would even say, the social fabric of this

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country at a time where it is becoming more profitable. Secondly,

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there is the issue about breaking apart Royal Mail from the post

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office. There is already some separation, but there is a synergy.

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Let Vince Cable response. It is becoming a much better operation.

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The challenge is enormous. They are losing large chunks of their mail

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business, they are picking it up on the parcel side, but they will have

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to invest very heavily. I suspect one of the reasons why performance

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has improved is they know they have to get ready for the market

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:13:31.:13:34.

flotation. Are we so bereft of any innovation or imagination in this

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country that we can't find a way to get some capital into a very, very

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much appreciated public sector resorts? The tradition is that you

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do it off the balance sheet, which always makes me suspicious, as you

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do with network rail? There was a lot of creativity under your former

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Prime Minister excavation mark I helped with some of that creativity!

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The hallmark of the British mail system, which almost every other

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country copied, was that there was a single price for sending a letter

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anywhere, not a parcel but a letter. That is enshrined in legislation for

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about eight years? What would happen after that? It is for Parliament to

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decide. Parliament has to decide if that has changed. One of the key

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objectives of privatisation is to underpin the universal service

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obligation, which is a guaranteed of a uniform price. If the Royal Mail

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is not viable, we can't uphold universal service obligations.

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party is criticising, quote, the timing of privatisation, but not the

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:14:56.:14:56.

principal. We voted against this. Royal Mail is improving all the

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time. George Osborne is desperate to do something about the borrowing

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statistics, �245 billion more than planned, he has all the harm -- it

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has all the hallmarks of a fire sale. They haven't thought through

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whole elements of which. In which case, this has been in public

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ownership for around 370 years, what is the rush? If it was a fire sale,

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why have we taken two years? Because you needed to get the pension fund

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of the books. The key issue is, what would you guys do? Chuka Umunna made

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it very clear that the debate is now closed. You will not re-nationalise

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it, we all know that. We are at the end of that particular story.

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the Queen's Speech tomorrow, on immigration, the proposals are to

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toughen up a lot of things on welfare as immigrants get paid or do

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:16:06.:16:11.

not get paid. You happy to go along We have overseas students come to

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go Britain and I would encourage that.

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We picked up, we didn't need these elections to tell us, there is a

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lot of public anxiety and much of it centres not on the gree gree

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free movement of -- the free movement of people per per se, but

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it is the sense that people come from overseas and get benefits they

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are not entitled to. Your party fought the election an

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an amnesty. Wasn't that a principled position? Wasn't it the

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right position to start again and have a line drawn under it? Nick

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Clegg made it clear that he he thought that was a mistake and we

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shouldn't have done that. I'm asking you? We have agreed that

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we are we are not going down that road again. The amnesty has been

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abandoned? Well, it had merits and demerits. People didn't like it.It

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created a lot of public anxiety P. What do you make of Nigel Lawson

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saying he will vote against. He doesn't think there will be much

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repatriation and he will vote to get out? Well, he is a clever guy,

:17:24.:17:29.

but he is often wrong on the issues like climate change and this. The

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problem he has and is explaining what the alternative model. I mean

:17:34.:17:37.

if you decide to leave the European Union, what are you going to

:17:37.:17:43.

negotiate with? He is a free trader I think so you would need to have

:17:43.:17:46.

agreement on the continuation of the single market, free trade

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arrangements. I am not sure how he would secure that.

:17:49.:17:53.

And where are you on the the idea that it is popular on parts of the

:17:53.:17:56.

Tory backbenches for a mandate referendum whereby a referendum

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would take place mandating the Government to go and repatriate

:18:00.:18:04.

powers from Brussels? Well, I don't see the need for that. Parliament

:18:04.:18:07.

has already set out the ground rules for a referendum. We have

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passed that legislation. But if the terms of our treaty position

:18:12.:18:15.

changes, we we should have a referendum. Parliament has decide

:18:15.:18:19.

that had. We don't need to go back on that.

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The Lib Dems would not support a Conservative part of the coalition

:18:22.:18:28.

trying to introduce mandate legislation?

:18:28.:18:33.

On the business of RBS if the Treasury is going to sell RBS at a

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loss and it looks as if that is what they are going to do. Wouldn't

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it be better to nationalise RBS? we had gone back fours years ago,

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that would be the thing to do. Nationalise it now would require

:18:48.:18:53.

the acquisition of the remaining shares... Not that much?It is a

:18:53.:18:58.

somebody standings sum of money. My main concern about RBS is the

:18:58.:19:01.

taxpayer get value money for money when it is sold.

:19:01.:19:09.

Well, they won't if it is sold at a loss. It will be sold eventually.

:19:09.:19:13.

There is a big issue about why the big banks including the State banks

:19:13.:19:18.

are not supporting small business and that's a real problem.

:19:18.:19:23.

Are you part of the three out of four who do not regard Ed Miliband

:19:23.:19:27.

as a credible Prime Minister or are you part of the one out of four who

:19:27.:19:36.

does regard him? He has not established that Labour are a

:19:36.:19:38.

credible alternative Government, but that's the challenge to him.

:19:38.:19:42.

His problem is not around personality, but he was part of a

:19:42.:19:46.

Government that oversaw the massive financial crisis and the

:19:46.:19:52.

consequences that flowed from that. So he a credible Prime Minister?

:19:52.:19:57.

Not yet and the challenge is for him to prove he is.

:19:57.:20:03.

Will you come back? I am happy to come back, Andrew. I used to enjoy

:20:03.:20:07.

my appearances on your programme. I will have the diary outside as

:20:08.:20:12.

you are leaving! Now as you may or may not know, we're not on air

:20:12.:20:18.

tomorrow. We are not? That means we don't get paid!

:20:18.:20:23.

The reason? It's the Queen's Speech. The moment when Her Majesty appears

:20:23.:20:27.

in Parliament to read out a list of the Government's plans for the next

:20:27.:20:29.

parliamentary session. Here's our insider's guide to the big event

:20:29.:20:36.

with Quentin Letts of the Daily Q is for Queen's Speech delivered

:20:36.:20:40.

at the State Opening of Parliament. It is the biggest day in the

:20:40.:20:44.

Parliamentary day. All the Queen's horses and the Queen's men and this

:20:44.:20:48.

is where she arrives. The Queen doesn't write the speech herself,

:20:48.:20:51.

mind you. It is written for her by the Cabinet and that is because it

:20:51.:20:55.

sets out the Government's legislative programme for the

:20:55.:20:59.

coming year. The Queen arrives at Parliament,

:20:59.:21:02.

comes up the stairs and into this little room. The Robing Room. This

:21:02.:21:06.

is where she gets ready and she puts on the imperial state state

:21:06.:21:11.

crown. The opening ceremony as we have it today dates back to 1852

:21:11.:21:14.

when this Palace of Westminster was built, but some parts of the

:21:14.:21:18.

ceremony go back further to times when the Crown and Parliament were

:21:19.:21:25.

on less than friendly terms! Before the Queen travels to

:21:25.:21:29.

Parliament, certain precautions are taken. A member of the Government

:21:29.:21:32.

is held hostage at at Buckingham Palace and is kept there until the

:21:33.:21:40.

monarch returns and the yeoman of the guard searches the zel the

:21:40.:21:47.

cellars of the House of the Parliament for any gun powder. She

:21:47.:21:51.

progresses through the chamber. On the day t it is crammed with VIPs

:21:51.:21:56.

and other guests. Black Rod is sent to to summon MPs to listen to the

:21:56.:22:01.

Queen's Speech.' arrives there -- he arrives there and the door is

:22:01.:22:05.

slammed in his face. MPs don't open it until he struck on the door with

:22:06.:22:12.

his staff of office. Black Rod leads MPs back towards

:22:12.:22:16.

the House of Lords. They amble slowly not wish to go appear too

:22:16.:22:20.

concerned and they listen to the Queen's Speech. It is standing room

:22:20.:22:29.

only. My lords, and members of the House

:22:29.:22:32.

of Commons, my Government's legislative programme will be based

:22:32.:22:39.

upon the principles of freedom, fairness and responsibility.

:22:39.:22:41.

Government's programme as presented in the Queen's Speech is debated

:22:41.:22:48.

for four or five days or for four or five years! Do you think they

:22:49.:22:58.
:22:59.:23:01.

rent it out for parties? Quentin Letts. Joining us from

:23:01.:23:04.

College Green are Kevin Maguire of the Daily Mirror and Emily Ashton

:23:04.:23:09.

from the Sun. Well, well, we have had local elections, what impact do

:23:09.:23:12.

you think the rise of UKIP in the local elections is going to have?

:23:12.:23:22.
:23:22.:23:24.

It has to be written on on velum! But, we do know that Nigel Farage

:23:24.:23:28.

is on the Queen's shoulder when she reads it out because we can say the

:23:28.:23:34.

way the Government is spinning and Nigel Lawson will be another guest

:23:34.:23:41.

who is there tomorrow, but we know that there are big issues that the

:23:41.:23:44.

Queen won't address, but they will be dominating the coalition from

:23:44.:23:47.

now on. Do you think we will see anything

:23:47.:23:52.

change substantively in terms of how the Tory-led Government as

:23:52.:23:55.

everyone likes to call it in terms of what they will do? I mean these

:23:55.:23:59.

things have been onted agenda for a while, but they have upped the

:23:59.:24:03.

rhetoric. The message tomorrow will be we are on the side of people who

:24:03.:24:07.

want to work hard and get on. It isn't really anything particularly

:24:08.:24:11.

new. Or controversial? Exactly. Yeah,

:24:11.:24:15.

there will be things like, you know, a crackdown on benefits fraud,

:24:15.:24:20.

foreigners who want to use the NHS, restricting access to the NHS and

:24:20.:24:30.
:24:30.:24:31.

housing and beating out -- booting out out foreign criminals easily.

:24:31.:24:35.

UKIP who managed to get so many former Tory voters on their side,

:24:35.:24:41.

they want to get them back. Kevin Maguire, if that's Nigel

:24:41.:24:46.

Farage circling above your head... It is nearly opening time, Jo.

:24:46.:24:53.

Kevin Maguire! He has a habit of falling out of

:24:53.:24:57.

planes! Some of the things that were

:24:57.:25:04.

dropped like the pledge for 0.7% of GDP on international aid. That's

:25:04.:25:09.

not going to be there. How symbolic is that? And plain packaging of

:25:09.:25:14.

cigarettes. The fact if you look at the Cameroon issues, minimum

:25:14.:25:21.

pricing of alcohol. They have been put on the back burner or dropped

:25:21.:25:23.

permanently. David Cameron is moving to the right and he will be

:25:24.:25:28.

answering the voice of Nigel Farage and the old days of the huskies and

:25:28.:25:32.

tilting at windmills are long gone and that's the significance and it

:25:32.:25:36.

will lead up to seven weeks time when George Osborne gives his next

:25:36.:25:39.

three year spending plans which will be a bigger political event

:25:39.:25:42.

than the Queen's Speech tomorrow. We will see the direction of the

:25:42.:25:45.

Government, but we will see them moving to the right and getting

:25:45.:25:49.

harsher, that's what they feel voters want. Whether it is the

:25:50.:25:54.

right right strategy, I think it is the wrong strategy, but I think

:25:54.:25:57.

that's where we will see the Government go.

:25:57.:26:03.

Emily, Lord Lawson's intervention is hardly a vote of confidence in

:26:03.:26:05.

David Cameron's campaign to go for a reformed relationship with the

:26:05.:26:12.

EU? Well, it is not ideal, is it? I don't know how central Lord Lawson

:26:12.:26:17.

is to UK politics now, but the fact that he is saying a renegotiation

:26:17.:26:22.

with Europe would fail is not quite what David Cameron wants to hear.

:26:22.:26:26.

And it will probably mean his right-wing Tory MPs feel the same

:26:26.:26:31.

that a renegotiation is word, what does it mean? What does the changes

:26:31.:26:35.

mean for Europe? It will ring a few bells and get people on side with

:26:35.:26:38.

Lord Lawson. On Europe, what about the the

:26:38.:26:42.

Liberal Democrats? We have had Vince Cable on talking to him about

:26:42.:26:47.

mandate referendums which have been suggested by Tory backbenchers, the

:26:47.:26:52.

Liberal Democrats won support it. - - won't support it. What's the mood

:26:52.:26:56.

amongst them? The Labour attacks on the Liberal Democrats, they are

:26:56.:26:59.

accomplices of David Cameron sting them and they like to to show they

:26:59.:27:02.

have a more positive agenda. Sometimes they can get measures

:27:02.:27:08.

they want. On Europe, I think, they are a party that won't move. They

:27:08.:27:15.

promise add add add in/out referendum. They will hold their

:27:15.:27:20.

ground. It is a fascinating period in politics. Europe's torn the Tory

:27:20.:27:26.

Party apart in the past, maybe it will do it again. Labour's is solid.

:27:26.:27:29.

The anti-European wing is now small and the Liberal Democrats are just

:27:29.:27:32.

sitting in there. I don't think the Liberal Democrats promising a

:27:32.:27:35.

referendum would would win them votes at next election. They are

:27:35.:27:40.

going to go down far and the hole campaign will be to defend the

:27:40.:27:43.

seats they already have. Thank you. Enjoy the Queen's Speech.

:27:43.:27:48.

Thank you. David Cameron, wasn't tilting at

:27:48.:27:56.

windmills, he will building them. So was his father-in-law. Solar

:27:56.:28:00.

panels. He wanted to put them in his wee

:28:00.:28:04.

back garden of 20,000 acres. When is a blue cheese that tastes

:28:04.:28:07.

like Stilton, smells like Stilton and is made in the village of

:28:07.:28:10.

Stilton not a stilton? Well, the answer is when it's manufacturers

:28:10.:28:13.

have no right to call it so under legal protection of products and

:28:13.:28:23.
:28:23.:28:23.

traditional foods that are tightly controlled. But what if new

:28:23.:28:26.

research suggests the so called "source of origin" is more

:28:26.:28:28.

complicated than those rules allow? I though you have been thinking

:28:28.:28:31.

about this night and day for weeks. So Giles has been hunting for

:28:31.:28:35.

scraps to find an answer. It is time for a bit of honesty, being a

:28:35.:28:37.

political reporter in and around Westminster is a tough job. There

:28:37.:28:39.

is a lot of pressures and the working conditions aren't great.

:28:39.:28:43.

You never know when the next meal is coming from and have to put up

:28:43.:28:46.

with rough things like this. There is a reason why I'm out here with

:28:46.:28:51.

this. All the products on the table are protected by law. If you want

:28:51.:29:01.

to sell them under a certain name. Certain morex, a Melton Mowbray

:29:01.:29:11.
:29:11.:29:11.

pork pie must have come from mel tonne Mowbray. From Melton Mowbray.

:29:11.:29:16.

Sam pain has to come from the champagne region otherwise it is

:29:16.:29:22.

just sparkling white wine. Let me introduce my guest. I I thought the

:29:22.:29:26.

principle of this legislation was to protect a traditional recipe or

:29:26.:29:29.

product from cheap copies, marketing under the brand. What's

:29:29.:29:34.

wrong with that? There is nothing wrong and I am in favour of ensure

:29:34.:29:37.

when you have a product that calls itself a certain product and says

:29:37.:29:41.

it is from a certain areas, that's what it is and if there are going

:29:41.:29:45.

to be cheap imitations then that's wrong. So we should have quality

:29:45.:29:49.

control. What I am saying, there are strict rules here and there

:29:49.:29:53.

ought to be flexibility because as time goes on, it is possible that

:29:53.:29:58.

that people may unearth things like they may find that a particular

:29:58.:30:02.

product was actually made or grown in a particular area and therefore,

:30:02.:30:06.

they need to revise the rules to include something else. That is all

:30:06.:30:12.

I'm asking for. Let me be clear, I am not suggesting that standards or

:30:12.:30:22.
:30:22.:30:22.

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 44 seconds

:30:22.:31:07.

quality control should be at the end of the day, you can say

:31:07.:31:11.

that this product is the real product. What I am trying to argue

:31:11.:31:16.

is that these rules are so strict that sometimes it can be difficult

:31:16.:31:22.

to break through. In a time of austerity, these are nice, high

:31:22.:31:28.

quality products, which are you partial to? A bit of cheese,

:31:28.:31:32.

genuinely, a bit of Stilton to use with a bit of wine closedown well.

:31:32.:31:40.

-- a bit of Stilton to. I think we should have lunch now! Shailesh Vara

:31:40.:31:47.

is joined as in the studio, as has Nigel White, the chairman of the

:31:47.:31:53.

Stilton Cheesemakers Association. -- Shailesh Vara has joined us. Does it

:31:53.:31:56.

not seem silly that a cheese produced in Stilton cannot call

:31:56.:32:06.
:32:06.:32:07.

itself a Stilton to? The name was protected in 1967 or 68 by a

:32:07.:32:09.

certification trademark granted to the Stilton Cheesemakers

:32:09.:32:14.

Association, which said that it must be made to a prescribed recipe in

:32:14.:32:16.

the counties of Derbyshire, Nottinghamshire and Leicestershire.

:32:16.:32:22.

But some historians say that Stilton is has got its name after being sold

:32:22.:32:26.

to travellers passing through the village of Stilton in the 18th

:32:26.:32:34.

century? So it came from there? about 1745 onwards, most of the

:32:34.:32:36.

Stilton was coming from Leicestershire and Nottinghamshire.

:32:36.:32:42.

As far as we know, there has been no cheese made in the village of

:32:42.:32:47.

Stilton for at least 200 years. there was a Stilton and is recipe

:32:47.:32:52.

published in a newsletter by Richard Radley in 1723. I remember reading

:32:52.:33:01.

about it at the time! It was a recipe for what was called Stilton.

:33:01.:33:04.

The recipe bears no relationship whatsoever with the cheese protected

:33:05.:33:11.

from 1968 onwards, that recipe was what we call cooked, pressed, cream

:33:11.:33:15.

cheese. No mention of blue. The Stilton we have been making the

:33:15.:33:20.

dairies for well over 100 years is unimpressed, uncooked, blue veined

:33:20.:33:30.

cheese. You are a bunch of imposters! Not at all. A local

:33:30.:33:34.

historian, working with the people making the cheese in Stilton at the

:33:34.:33:39.

moment, they have come up with a pamphlet dating from 1722 which not

:33:39.:33:43.

only speaks of Stilton making a cheese that of making Stilton is.

:33:43.:33:48.

There is a book which makes reference to the village, and even

:33:48.:33:55.

Daniel Defoe, writing in 1724, makes reference to Stilton and is being

:33:55.:34:00.

made in the village of Stilton. Lawrence says a perfect Stilton

:34:00.:34:06.

should be about seven inches in diameter, eight inches in height,

:34:06.:34:08.

and weigh about �18, which is exactly what my Christmas Stilton

:34:08.:34:18.
:34:18.:34:20.

did. But this was referred to as the English Parmesan. You ought to put

:34:20.:34:25.

the facts straight, no recipe at the moment adheres to what was made in

:34:25.:34:29.

the 18th century. In the 18th century, the cheese made in the

:34:29.:34:32.

village of Stilton was the same as is subsequently amazed in

:34:32.:34:38.

Leicestershire. Foreign muck? ! Leicestershire, Derbyshire and

:34:38.:34:47.

Nottinghamshire are new boys to the scene. The owner of the Bluebell in

:34:47.:34:55.

wanted to increase production, he did a deal with Leicestershire, a

:34:55.:35:01.

married couple, they then allowed Leicestershire... Or I would say to

:35:01.:35:05.

Nigel is produce the facts, produced the dates and the documents and the

:35:05.:35:11.

authors. Have you been making cheese in Stilton for the last 200 years?

:35:11.:35:17.

Nigel says you have not. There has not been cheese for a while, I don't

:35:17.:35:24.

know for how long. If you want to change the European definition, it

:35:24.:35:30.

does not say it needs to be made in... It does.It says it should

:35:31.:35:36.

originally have been made there, and it was. I certainly know that one

:35:36.:35:40.

man has been making cheese for the past two years which to all intents

:35:40.:35:50.
:35:50.:35:50.

and purposes is Stilton and is. does it matter? For 100 years we had

:35:50.:35:57.

none at all. Why does it matter? matters that consumers need to know

:35:57.:36:02.

where the product comes from. What the protected designation does to

:36:02.:36:06.

any product is to tell the consumer worried has come from. At the moment

:36:06.:36:12.

it can only come from those three counties. Unless Nigel produces

:36:12.:36:17.

evidence, what this boils downed two is the existing Stilton is the ones

:36:17.:36:21.

to maintain their monopoly and cartel, they don't want anybody knew

:36:21.:36:30.

breaking the market. You as the chairman of the Stilton to should

:36:30.:36:40.
:36:40.:36:41.

say, welcome on board if you can provide the evidence. Up to now you

:36:41.:36:51.
:36:51.:36:51.

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 44 seconds

:36:51.:37:52.

Agriculture and then it has to go evidence and we have got to problem

:37:52.:37:55.

with that. You have got to eat that before you

:37:55.:38:05.
:38:05.:38:11.

The political show moves on to tomorrow's Queen's Speech. It is

:38:11.:38:16.

the moment when the Government sets the agenda for the next 12 months.

:38:16.:38:22.

So what's on the cards? Jo has the details. Well, the much trailed

:38:22.:38:26.

Pensions Bill will introduce a single tier pension of �134 a week

:38:26.:38:32.

for everyone in Britain who spends 35 years working or or caring for

:38:32.:38:38.

children or the elderly. A new Immigration Bill is coming our way.

:38:38.:38:44.

It will allow foreign criminals to be deported more easily.

:38:44.:38:54.
:38:54.:38:56.

There will be a High-Speed Two Bill. Many Conservative backbenchers will

:38:56.:39:04.

be pleased that the commitment to dedicate 0.7% to international aid

:39:04.:39:09.

will not be enthis rind in law -- enshrined in law and there will be

:39:09.:39:14.

no snoopers charter. Despite the UKIP surge there will be no Bill

:39:14.:39:18.

paving the way for an EU referendum in the Queen's Speech.

:39:18.:39:27.

Thanks, Jo. With us now is Bob Neill. So are

:39:27.:39:36.

you giving up on the standard white cigarette packages and on the

:39:36.:39:39.

enshrining aid in law and you are going to be tough on immigrants in

:39:39.:39:42.

welfare. I guess UKIP is getting its way?

:39:42.:39:47.

Well, we needed to make space in the programme for the cheeses

:39:47.:39:53.

description amendments Bill, didn't we, Andrew?

:39:53.:39:59.

UKIP would like that! What we are con concentrating on are measures

:39:59.:40:03.

dealing with making sure the economy gets back on track,

:40:03.:40:07.

removing regulation and making sure we assist businesses going for

:40:07.:40:11.

growth. That's the key for the coming few months.

:40:11.:40:14.

What will be in the Queen's Speech that will get growth among

:40:14.:40:18.

businesses? Well, I am not going to pre-empt what's going to be in the

:40:18.:40:25.

Queen's Speech. But you will find a number of pressures there

:40:25.:40:32.

Give aus give us a taste of one? And there will be issues around

:40:32.:40:36.

that and we will be seeing outed important reforms around welfare,

:40:36.:40:46.
:40:46.:41:06.

so that people don't have the poorer pensions when they are older but

:41:06.:41:11.

they have had, looking after carers. Just in the summary that Jo made

:41:12.:41:18.

earlier, a really good collect Shannon of things will work. -- a

:41:18.:41:25.

really good collection of things. If you see any studies about the

:41:25.:41:29.

Borders agency, it has been disgraceful with many people waiting

:41:29.:41:37.

for ages to see if they are allowed to stay or not. We need to make sure

:41:37.:41:41.

the system works properly so that people who should be here can get

:41:41.:41:47.

here easily, people who should not be here cannot. Why have you

:41:47.:41:53.

abandoned to your pledge to have an amnesty for illegal immigrants?

:41:53.:42:00.

was not a pledge. We have heard of people who have waited for ten or 14

:42:00.:42:04.

years to have an answer from the Home Office, it strikes me that as a

:42:05.:42:08.

Home Office problem. Don't they deserve to stay? Wipe the slate

:42:08.:42:17.

clean -- clean? People who have been here for a long time are allowed

:42:17.:42:21.

nationality. You have abandoned a principle position which would make

:42:21.:42:26.

life easier for people who have been here illegally for a long time to go

:42:26.:42:31.

for the easier hit of bashing those who are coming recently. I said we

:42:31.:42:35.

wanted to make it easier for people who should be here to get here.

:42:35.:42:38.

Constituents find it very hard to get family visas, asylum claims are

:42:39.:42:44.

waiting for years, the Home Secretary is doing an inquiry

:42:44.:42:49.

because it is a disgrace that it takes so long. People who should be

:42:49.:42:54.

able to get into the country find it very hard, we should be able to fix

:42:54.:42:58.

that. It is hard to avoid the impression that you are running out

:42:58.:43:02.

of steam, there is nothing which will set the heather on fire.

:43:02.:43:07.

are important measures going forward. We are putting lots of

:43:07.:43:12.

things place. I remember my time as a minister, a great deal of the work

:43:12.:43:17.

is about implementation. That is what I mean, it may be that that is

:43:17.:43:21.

where you are. The die is cast on your deficit reduction policy, your

:43:21.:43:26.

welfare reforms are being ruled out, that will not change, your education

:43:26.:43:31.

reforms are still a work in progress. In a sense, you at a stage

:43:31.:43:36.

where there are no more big ideas. It is trying to do and get credit

:43:36.:43:41.

for what you already doing? Doing the job we set out to do, we should

:43:41.:43:48.

not apologise for that. Alan Johnson, you said that the aftermath

:43:48.:43:53.

was -- aftermath of last week's election was that David Miliband is

:43:53.:43:59.

showing too much alike? What does that mean? It is a fixed term

:43:59.:44:09.
:44:09.:44:10.

parliament, you do not know when the election will be called, it could be

:44:10.:44:14.

four years, it could be slightly less. We know there will not be an

:44:14.:44:17.

election until 2015, so under those circumstances, no opposition serious

:44:17.:44:20.

about getting into government wants to reveal too much to years ahead.

:44:20.:44:23.

You can reveal the direction of travel. The criticism of Ed

:44:23.:44:29.

Miliband, there is a whole raft... What a lot of people see as the

:44:29.:44:34.

problem is that the direction of travel has been to an unspecified

:44:34.:44:38.

vague new left, but all the suggestions are that the country is

:44:38.:44:43.

moving right. I can see nothing that will come in this Queen's Speech

:44:43.:44:48.

that tackles the main problem, lack of growth, a stagnant economy. What

:44:48.:44:55.

Ed Miliband is doing is saying how we can get the economy going.

:44:55.:45:02.

I don't agree that Ed Miliband has revealed very much policy at all. If

:45:02.:45:06.

the sheer number of bills passed was the test of success, the last

:45:06.:45:10.

government would have been a huge success. How many Immigration Bills

:45:10.:45:18.

did you have, eight or nine? last government dealt with the most

:45:18.:45:20.

serious economic crisis the world has had for 45 years. You campaigned

:45:20.:45:26.

on the same platform as us with Vince Cable, if you overdo austerity

:45:26.:45:32.

you will choke growth. We had growth of 1.8 % coming out of a recession,

:45:32.:45:37.

it is ridiculous for the Liberal Democrats to say that there was

:45:37.:45:42.

nothing in America, Lehman Brothers didn't happen, we got into this

:45:42.:45:47.

situation because we recruited more nurses and teachers. You deregulated

:45:47.:45:56.

the banks, you allowed the boom to continue. Are you in favour of

:45:56.:46:06.
:46:06.:46:10.

having a mandate referendum whereby you introduce a Referendum Bill, and

:46:10.:46:14.

the people voting would or would not mandate the government to

:46:14.:46:17.

renegotiate their powers? Are you in favour? The one caveat about that is

:46:17.:46:24.

we know... I am in favour of exploring all the options and making

:46:24.:46:34.

it very clear that we set out our stall for renegotiation and what it

:46:34.:46:38.

would be. We said we would publish a draft before the general election. I

:46:38.:46:42.

am in favour of publishing the draft bill, that makes sense. Whether or

:46:42.:46:46.

not the bill which would probably not get through adds anything to

:46:46.:46:50.

that, that is a question. Would it not help you with that was opposed

:46:51.:46:54.

by other parties? You would say they had a chance to vote, and the only

:46:54.:46:56.

party which would give you a referendum is to vote Conservative?

:46:56.:46:59.

That is superficially attractive, but we have already shown that the

:46:59.:47:04.

Prime Minister has delivered on the veto and the renegotiation of the

:47:04.:47:14.
:47:14.:47:17.

Budget, he will do that on the Government is to keep us safe, but

:47:17.:47:21.

monitoring those who would do us harm becomes more difficult and

:47:21.:47:24.

intrusive on the pif asy of ordinary people. This Government,

:47:24.:47:28.

like the one before t has tried to give the Security Services greater

:47:28.:47:34.

powers to monitor the internet, but its latest attempt, the

:47:34.:47:37.

Communications Data Bill has been vetoed by Nick Clegg and won't

:47:38.:47:45.

feature in tomorrow's Queen's Speech. A senior Lib Dem, Lord

:47:45.:47:48.

Carlisle accused his leader of putting party politics above

:47:48.:47:53.

national securitypm. David Thompson reports.

:47:53.:47:59.

Two plots to bring terror to the streets of Britain. One thwarted

:47:59.:48:03.

using surveillance intelligence, the other stopped by a random

:48:03.:48:08.

traffic check. That's the head quarters of MI5. Their job, to keep

:48:08.:48:12.

us safe by keeping one step ahead of terrorism and organised crime.

:48:12.:48:19.

But in an internet age, that job is increasingly difficult which is why

:48:19.:48:25.

successive governments tried to give them increased powers to

:48:25.:48:29.

scrutinise activities on websites. The latest attempt is the

:48:29.:48:33.

Communications Data Bill and experts believe it is crucial.

:48:33.:48:39.

kind of legislation is vital. The data that we are talking about has

:48:39.:48:44.

been used for crucial prsz, murder, -- prosecutions, murder, serious

:48:44.:48:47.

organised crime. I think it is necessary to have this Bill in

:48:47.:48:57.

order to organise data which is already available from mobile

:48:57.:49:00.

telephone operators. This is existing material that tells you

:49:00.:49:03.

the the when and the how long of communications.

:49:03.:49:07.

Maybe, but it has been dubbed the snoopers charter and derailed by

:49:07.:49:12.

Nick Clegg and is unlibly to see -- unlikely to see the light of day

:49:12.:49:18.

soon. The main criticism is on privacy grounds. The internet

:49:18.:49:21.

businesses expected to provide information on service users and

:49:21.:49:25.

hold it for 12 months are sceptical too.

:49:25.:49:29.

When you have people like Skype and Microsoft and Google asking what

:49:29.:49:32.

information is it that you want that we don't give you and the

:49:32.:49:36.

officials condition answer that question. Then it is time to take a

:49:36.:49:39.

step back from the Bill as we have and think about what information it

:49:39.:49:44.

is that we need. What people dubbed the snoopers

:49:44.:49:46.

charter, that is not going to happen.

:49:46.:49:52.

Nick Clegg was cheered by civil liberty campaigners when he vetoed

:49:52.:49:57.

the Bill. The man hose job it was to keep tabs on terrorism

:49:57.:50:04.

legislation. He is scathing. He has torpedoed this. I am disappoint

:50:04.:50:09.

that had some of the my my Liberal Democrat colleagues including a few

:50:09.:50:16.

in the Lords decided without knowing any of the evidence to

:50:16.:50:23.

oppose this legislation. If we don't have an organised

:50:23.:50:27.

Communications Data Bill which provides the authorities with

:50:27.:50:32.

access to the when and for how long of mobile phone telephone calls in

:50:33.:50:36.

appropriate cases then there will be increased danger to the public.

:50:36.:50:39.

That doesn't seem like responsible Government.

:50:39.:50:44.

The key task of the men and women who work in these buildings, MI5

:50:44.:50:48.

and MI6 is to safeguard our freedoms and our way of life. Their

:50:48.:50:51.

challenge to do it without destroying the things they are

:50:51.:50:57.

trying to preserve. Alan Johnston is still with us. He

:50:57.:51:03.

was Home Secretary in Gordon Brown's Government. Alan Johnson as

:51:03.:51:06.

Home Secretary you were privy to intelligence briefings. What do you

:51:07.:51:16.

make of the Liberal Democrats tor peed owing this Bill? -- por --

:51:16.:51:23.

torpedoing this Bill? I agree with Lord Carlisle. Julian sat on a

:51:23.:51:33.
:51:33.:51:33.

committee that produced a very good report as did the committee which

:51:33.:51:41.

men zee Campbell Menzies Campbell sits on said there was a problem

:51:41.:51:44.

that the problem is growing and the problem needs to be tackled. It

:51:44.:51:46.

isn't going to be tackled for two years.

:51:46.:51:50.

So was it responsible of the Liberal Democrats to do what they

:51:50.:51:55.

did? No, it was responsible to get the balance right between eitheries

:51:55.:52:04.

and the need for the -- -- civil liberties and there were problems

:52:04.:52:09.

with the draft Bill, but to scupper it... Is it responsible according

:52:09.:52:14.

to your colleague who knows something about this stuff. He did

:52:14.:52:17.

scrutinise terrorism legislation. He says it will lead to an increase

:52:17.:52:23.

in danger to the public. This was irresponsible Government?

:52:23.:52:29.

disagree. A huge amount this data is available. Last year, there were

:52:29.:52:34.

500,000 requests for this data under existing law. We know that

:52:34.:52:38.

Labour tried to expand it, to collect move information on every

:52:38.:52:41.

website that everybody went to. That's what that was and that's

:52:41.:52:45.

what this proposed Bill would have done. It is responsible responsible

:52:45.:52:50.

not to allow that to happen. The committee had a look and we said

:52:50.:52:53.

the information coming from the Home Office was unhelpful and

:52:53.:53:00.

misleading. We never said there was a need for legislation. There was.

:53:00.:53:03.

It doesn't say there was a need. You can have a look and you will

:53:03.:53:07.

see it does not say it. It says there is a case for legislation,

:53:07.:53:12.

but this goes further than it needs That does rather admit there is a

:53:12.:53:17.

case for some sort of law and an enhancing of the laws to pro at the

:53:17.:53:27.
:53:27.:53:27.

time individuals or to -- enhancing of the laws or to catch criminals?

:53:27.:53:32.

It could lead to less information being available to the police and

:53:32.:53:37.

the Security Services. If you had �1.8 billion to help the police,

:53:37.:53:40.

how would you spend it? His answer was not this Communications Data

:53:40.:53:44.

Bill. It was about having more police on the streets and more

:53:44.:53:48.

training. I am surprised any party wants to spend �1.8 billion on this

:53:48.:53:53.

rather rather than doing proper police. Would it have been value

:53:53.:53:58.

for money? When we have had Alan Johnson saying sophisticated

:53:58.:54:02.

criminals are going to be ahead of the technology and would have about

:54:02.:54:10.

enshrined in this Bill, pointless? Jacqui Smith published the

:54:10.:54:15.

consultation dumb on this. I saw it -- document on this. I think

:54:15.:54:20.

Theresa May and the Conservatives came in and they were libertarian.

:54:20.:54:24.

When they saw the evidence of the gap and no one can say what the gap

:54:24.:54:28.

is because it gives a gift to the people who want to exploit it. It

:54:28.:54:32.

was clear that there is a problem as the Intelligence and Security

:54:32.:54:39.

Committee on which Menzies Campbell sits.

:54:39.:54:43.

There were issues in the join committee report and Nick Brown sat

:54:43.:54:49.

on that and Julian and they they produced valid points. Now, that

:54:49.:54:54.

needs to be taken into account because it was a draft Bill and a

:54:54.:54:59.

new Bill needs to come forward. was a draft because Nick said it

:54:59.:55:03.

was a draft. I will quote you on that. But the issue about the gap

:55:03.:55:09.

has not been substantiated. We have been told there is a 25% gap. The

:55:09.:55:14.

former head of Fife said that relied -- MI5 said that. It was

:55:14.:55:19.

said by the former head of MI5. The case has not been made to spend

:55:19.:55:24.

billions of points setting up a database to keep track of every

:55:24.:55:29.

wooilt we go to. Every time we do something on Google, send a Gmail

:55:29.:55:32.

that's a huge amount of personal information.

:55:32.:55:36.

What you have not answered is, was it right to get rid of the

:55:36.:55:39.

legislation as a result? It is right not to have this new Bill,

:55:39.:55:41.

yes. You could have put safeguards in.

:55:41.:55:47.

You admitted there is a case to be made for new legislation and you

:55:47.:55:53.

have cast aside the legislation? would be comfortable with just

:55:53.:55:55.

having the extra safeguards. I don't think the Home Secretary was

:55:55.:56:00.

happy to do that. There is one issue of data about IP address

:56:00.:56:04.

matching which is is technical where there is agreement. That is

:56:04.:56:07.

what the police told us would be really useful.

:56:07.:56:11.

Are we going to be less safe? Julian was dealing with the police.

:56:11.:56:15.

His colleague was dealing with the intelligence services. A smaller

:56:15.:56:22.

part of this, law enforcement is the major part. 90% of the cases

:56:22.:56:25.

they resolve are resolved because they put together who was

:56:26.:56:29.

contacting who. Who else was in this plot? What the network is. And

:56:29.:56:34.

there is a tranche of this that is not legislated for and that puts us

:56:34.:56:44.
:56:44.:56:45.

in more dangerpm. I am going to have to finish it there.

:56:45.:56:49.

As well as being a former Home Secretary and former Education

:56:49.:56:56.

Secretary and former chancellor, Alan Johnson turned his hand to

:56:56.:57:05.

writing. This book, This Boy, is out this week. It focuses on Alan's

:57:05.:57:11.

tough upbringing on on an estate in London. Here is a snapshot of his

:57:11.:57:21.
:57:21.:57:21.

time in politics so far. People from my kind of background

:57:21.:57:31.
:57:31.:58:00.

It is simple. What we are worried about is you

:58:00.:58:09.

you haven't got the bottle or the experience.

:58:09.:58:16.

We have got the book. This Boy by Alan Johnson and I will make him

:58:16.:58:26.

sign it, but the unsigned copies are worth more. It really is an may

:58:26.:58:33.

an amazing story. My mum had a sad and tough life. She She died young.

:58:33.:58:37.

I call her Lily. She had a terrible life. She had a terrible life that

:58:37.:58:42.

that me and my sister escaped from because of her courage and because

:58:42.:58:48.

of her... Your sister a hero.She should have been Prime Minister!

:58:49.:58:52.

That generation, they took comfort in us having a better life?

:58:52.:58:55.

Absolutely. They came through the war. My mother came from a family

:58:55.:59:00.

of ten. Two of her siblings died young. A really tough life and were

:59:00.:59:02.

really, really determined to deliver a better future.

:59:03.:59:06.

We have to go. Harold Wilson is the answer to our quiz. He went to

:59:06.:59:13.

Europe to renegotiate and didn't give much back. That's it for today.

:59:13.:59:19.

Jo Coburn and Andrew Neil are joined by the former Labour home secretary Alan Johnson to look ahead to the Queen's Speech, as well as all the latest political news, interviews and debate.


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