09/05/2013 Daily Politics

Daily Politics. How many young children can one adult safely look

after? Lib Dems and Conservatives squabble over plans to bring down

the cost of childcare. It was a pretty posh do but will the

bills announced by the Queen yesterday helped the government

connect with ordinary voters? Unions have played a key role in the

Labour Party since its creation that is the money and influence coming

too much -- having too much of a sale over the selection of

parliamentary candidates? And what is on Dave and Ed 's mind

on Queens speech date the Mac a certain football managers

resignation, of course. -- Queens speech date? A certain football

manager's resignation. Without -- with us for the next

hour, three of Her Majesty's's most loyal subjects. Sarah Newton, deputy

chair of the Conservative party, Stella Creasy, stack -- Shadow

Minister for crime convention who is dressed perfectly for our sofa

area. She has just merged in. Obviously there was a job lot on the

material. Charming!

And Lorely Burt, chair of the Lib Dem parliamentary party. Let's start

with childcare and the revelation that Nick Clegg has told the

Conservatives that he is not so keen on government plans to increase the

number of children that nursery staff and childminders can look

after. Speaking on LBC's Call Clegg this morning, he said there had been

discussions for weeks about the plans to increase statutory ratios

for carers. We have been talking about this for weeks and weeks and

that was as surprised as anyone else that this appeared in public

overnight. Being open, I'm telling you that this is a debate we have

had for a long time. You could look after four at once, couldn't you?

It's not a question about me. I challenge you to spend a morning

looking after six two-year-olds. will have a go if you have a go.

going to visit a childcare Centre this afternoon so maybe we'll have a

go. I'll wish them both luck with looking after six two-year-olds. Is

this another U-turn on policy? at all. I understand that there will

be a consultation. They are going to talk to the different interest

groups and make sure that what we're doing is the right thing. It is

important decision. Nick Clegg says it is not the right thing to do. He

has clearly said he does not think the ratio should be increased.

Conservative minister says that it is. As I say, we will take the

advice of the experts. My own daughter went to nursery school and

they do not know what the ratio was but an old that she got a lot of

loving and professional care. I think that is the important thing.

We can come onto the substance, but there is a risk that this policy

will not go ahead. Is that how you see it? These concerns have been

raised at the 11th hour and Nick Clegg does not think the balance is

right. I think we will sort it out. I think there will be a compromise.

Where will it come from? Am not a fly on the wall. I do not know, I am

not a professional. Think we should leave these decisions to people with

the professional ability. experts say that it is nonsense and

the government's own advice on this has said that it would be madness to

go ahead and increase the ratio. Now we have the Deputy Prime Minister

saying he is very concerned. This policy is not going to happen.

is part of the bill in the normal process is that it gets well

scrutinised. This is such an important issue for families all

over the country. but scrutinised by the backbenchers, not the

government. You're meant to do that when you make it a bill. There is

proper scrutiny involving people inside and outside of Parliament.

Freedom is usually -- Sweden is usually held up as the best country

for childcare but they have no ratios at all. But they have a lot

of state subsidies. They have a lot of highly qualified, trained staff.

And the make sure they have good quality childcare. I think any

parent, and we are all mothers here, any mother would love the best

possible care for their children. I think they are really well placed to

know and make the choice. How many children do you think one adult

could safely look after? I think if it is a question of how

well-qualified they are, but I am not an expert. I am in Mum of three

but it is not an area of expertise for me. I'd agree. I would not want

to look after six voluntarily. But the problem here, this is a policy

that has been presented and it is only part of the bill, but without

it, the rest of the Bill collapses because it is all costed around this

element of childcare, and an earnest has clearly said that without this

element, the rest of the package is not costed. This is a proper debate

to be had in Parliament but I would say that this is such an important

issue, let's not make a political ping-pong match out of it. Families

all over the country want to know that we are focused on an important

issue, high-quality, affordable childcare. That is the most

expensive childcare anywhere in Europe, apart from Switzerland. We

have so many families that want to be able to go out to work and they

cannot afford it. OK, there are details need to ironed out...

think this is a fairly crucial detail. -- needs to be ironed out.

How many children can an adult would after? You mean Nick Clegg, he is

play politics with this. I think it is unfair to draw particular

attention. One week, the Labour Party figures are good idea in the

next they think it is a bad idea. This is such an important issue. All

the parties should really get to the evidence. Other countries have these

ratios. Liberal Democrats are the ones in government, not Labour, but

we will come to live now. Do you think it is too many, Stella

Creasy? I have got a 2 euros niece and ironed or her, but cannot

understand how someone could have another eyes on the back of their

heads to cope with six of her at the same time. -- enough eyes. We agreed

that families are struggling because of the high cost of childcare but

one of the things we did was bringing in childcare vouchers. My

word in the 50% of sure start centres say they are not financially

sustainable. There is debate about training and qualifications, to make

sure we attract and retain the best people. But this is not a small

issue. I think the worry is that if the number is not sex, what is the

number? But should government increased the number? I am minded by

the evidence from Holland where they introduced the ratio and it cost the

public purse more. It is a lose lose scenario. Nick Clegg picked up on

that. He's right to be but why is he suddenly raising these concerns? Liz

Truss has been an advocate for this for a long time. She has been clear

about her views, so for it to appear suddenly, I worry that parents are

just going to be confused, are they going to make progress? I do not

know how you're going to bring childcare costs down? We think

investment in the quality of training, and we're looking at sure

start. One of the things that comes up is the cost of premises. If you

are losing the centres, that is something we should be looking at.

Ratios are not the answer. That is the debate we are having. Do you

agree with that? You do not agree with the proposal? The key thing, I

think we agree, is the quality of the childcare. People have to make

technical decisions. I think if parents can have more choice about

the type of childcare, that would be a good advance. If ratios are the

key thing, why do you want them done at all? You have do have some

ratios. Sweden does.That is fine, but you have to set out the basic

tenet. Able do not Trust the parents? If people want more than

that, then they can have that. I have interviewed Liz Truss on this

issue and she is adamant that those ratios need to be increased to bring

childcare costs down. I'm not sure where the costs will come down. Will

they be passed on to parents? I am not convinced that they will be. We

were working in the industry will earn more money and that might be a

good thing but can you guarantee that by increasing ratios, parents

will pay less? I think it is about choice. Elizabeth wants to be able

to offer more choice. Parents are best placed to decide what is the

best childcare for them. This is one part of a comrade is a package of

measures, making it really affordable for families. Sarah is

right, this is a key cost of living issue. We have to do everything we

can. Will this be on the books by September, when this is supposed to

be rolled out? That is only months away. We had not seen the timetable

for parliament but if that is the commitment, we will get to it? Do

you agree the Mac with a copper mines, with a change? It has to come

out in the wash. We will see. It must be evidence -based. Liz Truss

has done her homework. She has. The government's expert says that the

ratio makes no sense at all. believe in evidence -based policy

making and I'm sure the Minister setting this out to the committee

will have a really good debate. Your listeners will expect that. It is

our job to spend days and days going through legislation and making sure

it is fit for purpose. That is what we will be doing. We will have this

discussion before September. Don't say September is just round

the corner, we have not even had a summer yet! Acts more like Nigel

Farage and less like a public school toff, that was the help of advice of

the man who ran David Cameron's County Council. Keith Mitchell said

the UKIP leader was better at connecting with ordinary mortals

than other politicians and was unafraid to be filmed with a pint of

beer and a fag in his hand will stop David Cameron, I'm sure he knows a

few things about fags. Yesterday 's win speech looked like a response to

the rise of UKIP. Will the speech appeal to disaffected Tory voters?

We have been looking at it. The Conservatives are keen to focus

on issues that will appeal to members of the grassroots that might

have gone over to UKIP or have gone to the pub instead. Shocking. To add

some broth to the legislative agenda, there is a new automated

agenda, there is a new automated easier to deport foreign criminals

agenda, there is a new automated easier to deport measures to

regulate migrant access to housing in the NHS. Out our plans for a

minimum price for alcohol and plain cigarette packaging. That has

angered the black health campaigners but pleased critics of the nanny

state. In our new rules meaning that tens of thousands of prisoners will

be monitored for up to year after a short jail terms. But there were

when the reasons for some backbenchers to think the glass is

half-full. No mention of the EU referendum, dashing hopes of a

government Bill to enshrine in law a vote after the next election.

Ministers say the bill giving the way for high-speed to will boost

growth. And although it was not mentioned by the Queen, the gay

marriage bill has been carried over from the last Parliament and will be

coming back to Parliament. Ed Miliband claimed the package

amounted to remove to the right and warned the Prime Minister that you

cannot out the rise should the rise. Did you see the hand of UKIP in the

Queens speech? -- out-Farage Farage. We have seen Lord Lawson this week

saying that Britain would be better out of the European Union. I think

that you look at the meat of the Queens speech, putting restrictions

on benefits, for example, for migrants. Obviously, the hand of

UKIP is there. But this cannot apply to citizens from the European Union

and this cannot apply to citizens from bog area oral mania or Poland

or Lithuania. It will only apply to people from Australia, New Zealand,

Canada. I think that is the scrum monetary and creates a two tier

immigration system. Know that you have joined the big time, you are on

the Daily Politics, are you going to have do start developing more

policies? Are you a party that is going to have policies or you more a

state of mind? UKIP is a movement in many ways and it is a state of mind

in many ways. It is about people wanting to gain independence for our

country. It is about people who want the people who make the decisions in

this country to be the people you can get rid of after five years.

They do not want it to be unelected commissioners in Brussels who

basically dictate 75% of the laws that we have to apply. In a way, it

is a state of mine but it is also a fully fledged political party with a

raft of policies. Where are you on social care? Do you have a cap? What

would it be? On social care, care for the elderly is quite important.

Just quite important? It is important because these people have

retired. So what is the policy?The policy is that they deserve care in

the government are moving in the right direction. I ask about your

policy. Where are you on social care? Would you have a cap and what

would it be? I think the cap would be similar to what it is at the

moment. We're not just here to criticise the government. The point

of the matter is that when they do something right are moving in the

right direction, we must say well done and given a pat on the back.

There are certain issues where we do not think they are moving in the

right direction. For example, the removal of any mention of the EU

referendum from the Queens speech. We believe that is not good enough

and we would like to see a referendum. Interesting that I asked

you about social care and we end up on a referendum about Europe! Where

are you on child quake? Would you support a bigger ratio on childcare

issues? What is the policy there? Well, we actually think that smaller

sizes work in terms of childcare, and obviously it is important

because it gets our children ready for school, and primary school is

where the very seed of education... Even I know what childcare does, I

am trying to find out what your policy is! We would like to see

smaller class sizes for childcare, but there are restrictions at the

moment and cuts have to happen. What we do not want to see is bigger

class sizes, because what happens then is that children are often left

out and not looked after in the way that they should be. It is an

interesting question, whether you should have, given that you are a

state of mind and a movement, does it really matter whether you have

policies on social care or childcare? That is not what you are

in politics for, you are not going to form a government in this

country. Should you bother going down the road of trying to answer my

questions? Or should you just say that you are a one issue party and

that is all that matters? Indeed, if we voted to leave Europe, you could

disband. Well, no, because we are a political party, and political

parties have policies. Ten years ago, that would have washed, that we

were a single issue pressure group, but that is no longer the case. We

have policies, we stand in elections, we believe in a small

state and freedom for the individual, and most of all we

believe in freedom of our country. You had better get to work on social

care and childcare before you see me again! Did you try to hire Lynton

Crosby to run your campaign? No, we didn't, unfortunately. I have had no

contact with Lynton Crosby whatsoever. But did Mr Farage tried

to hire him? Mr Farage has had conversations with Mr Crosby, you

will have to ask him. I have had no conversations with him. Sarah

Newton, you have been attacking UKIP because of their immigration policy

lacks detail, and they are looking at it again. If that is a legit as a

criticism, why did you announce a policy that is lacking details?

I am really concerned about is to listen to the people who vote UKIP.

That is fine, but that is not the question I am asking you. If your

immigration policy lacks detail with UKIP, why does your policy on

immigration lacked detail? We have not seen the bill yet, and it is

going to have the detail you are talking about. This is a commitment

months ago. This is not a knee-jerk reaction to UKIP. These policies

were developed a very long time ago to be in the Queen's Speech, and we

will see the draft bills to give us, you know, proper controls on

immigration. You said that private landlords and doctors are going to

have to become border guards, and yet Downing Street, when we go to

these briefings, could not give us any details of how this would work.

You are more experienced than I am, you know the Queen's Speech lays out

what we are hoping to achieve, it does not go into the details that

you get as the bills are published. It is clear we have already got net

immigration down by a third, and we are taking every opportunity to

tighten things up. We want people to come here to contribute, come to our

universities, but people who come as benefits tourists, that is something

we will clamp down on. We know a lot of these restrictions, you have got

UKIP in mind that the arrival of the Bulgarians and remain years, and yet

Downing Street could not tell us whether this bill would be in place

for January the 1st. -- Romanians. We are very concerned about the

people who voted UKIP at the last election, saying to all of us, loud

and clear, none of the above. We are fed up with Westminster politicians

were not listening to us or addressing our issues. They took

both off everyone. We were already listening to people's concerns on

immigration, taking action. So UKIP may be clowns, but you want to join

the circus. UKIP voters are really important to me. A few weeks ago,

they were clowns, fruitcakes and closet racists, but now, because

people are voting for them, they are important to you. For a long time,

people who have had immigration as a concerned have been our concern. We

have delivered a third reduction in net immigration. These are

Conservative concerns and have been for a long time, not a reaction to

UKIP. If that is true, why wouldn't you get the legislation in place

before the Romanians and Bulgarians arrive? I am sure every effort will

be made to tighten up everything. And you let Nadine Dorries back into

the party in case she defected to UKIP, the Tories are like a UKIP

puppet these days. That is the way you may love to see it, because it

is going to make your life a lot more fun, having four parties, not

three, but it is not the way I see it. We are there for the vast

majority of people in this country, and that is what we will continue to

be. Paul Nuttall, you may not have talked to Lynton Crosby, but did you

talk to Nadine Dorries about joining UKIP? Well, negotiations

behind-the-scenes go on all of the time, and I think the fact that they

have invited her back, basically, with no strings attached, when she

has been such a strident critic of the Prime Minister and the

Chancellor in particular, that basically says to me they are

worried that she might cross the floor and join UKIP. It's pretty

much as an act of desperation. say these talks go on all the times,

so there were discussions? Well, of course, again, I have not personally

spoken to Nadine Dorries in my life. Would you like to? We are both

Scousers, I suppose! Conversations have been going on with a number of

people behind-the-scenes for quite awhile, because there are a number

of conservatives out there who believed we would better off outside

the European Union, and they just need to grow a backbone and do

something about it. It is not just the Tories that are jumping to the

UKIP tune, this is the labour that provided over the biggest increase

in mass immigration this country has ever known, the Tories coming up

with some things to tighten it up compared to what it was like when

you were in power, and Yvette Cooper once even tougher action against

immigration. You are listening to UKIP as well. We are looking at the

economy, and when I look at my community, people are really

struggling, and the idea that the best we can do is to say, you will

need to take your passport into A&E, that really worries me, are we

doing everything we can to get the country moving again? Your spokesman

once migrants to be in the country. Die before they get aching back,

that is tougher than what they are proposing. That in the country for

some before. It is frustrating when the government says we will do

something that immigration but we don't hear anything about the

economy. Particularly people having their wages and the cup. You are now

urging the Government to do a lot more about illegal immigrant in this

country, and yet, and yet, these are the illegal immigrants that got into

this country when you were in power. We are talking about illegal

immigration because it is an issue. We have said that we got things

wrong, and Ed Miliband and Yvette Cooper have been clear about that,

but what do we do now with an economy that is stuttering along?

One of the issues is about people having their wages undercut. Nobody

wants to see the national minimum wage and the cut. The Government has

not said anything about tackling that. -- undercut. How many cases

did you bring when you were in power? I think it was about 3000

502,009, and it has been cast about 1500, the number of cases. How many

employers were prosecuted under Labour for not paying the minimum

wage? That is my understanding.You have got that wrong almost as badly

as you got the migration figures from Poland wrong! People have said,

yes, we got the figures wrong on Poland, and that was difficult.

did not prosecute thousands of employers. We took up the issue

around enforcement. We will look up the proper figures, I think it is

about ten, you are nodding, about ten were prosecuted. It is a very

tiny number. You have gone along with these changes which are very

much conservative -inspired, can I just remind you that you were the

party that fought the last election on an amnesty for illegal

immigrant's, which, if you were not running for election, may have been

the most principled and honest policy of all? Yes, it didn't go

down too well, though. That does not make it wrong, but at the same time

what we have got to do is listen to what people are saying to us,

otherwise we will become irrelevant. We have got to listen, we do listen.

I go on the doorstep every week, and people talk about immigration, and

that is why we are putting forward these... So the amnesty is gone

question my I do not think we will be bringing that one back, but I

cannot say for my party. Any reason that Nigel Farage should

be in the leaders debates? That is above my pay grade extra

schmuck I think you are an opinion politics when Labour was doing very

well in local elections, I am mindful of the fact that does not

translate into the national scene. There is a debate about the

lection, but that is above our pay grade. -- the election. I am happy

to talk about it, but two years before the election, if they are

still polling the extent to which they are now, of course, you guys

are going to give them a huge voice. Should they be on the leadership

debates? We do not know what form they will take. His views should be

listened to, absolutely. Paul Nuttall, a final question to you,

would you like your leader, Mr Farage, to be part of the leadership

debates, if we have them in the 2015 campaign? Well, of course, it would

be ridiculous if we won the European elections and were polling" is in

2015, possibly even doubled the Liberal Democrats, and excluded from

the leadership debate. That would suggest some thing is fundamentally

wrong with our democracy. We will have to get another chair! Now, the

trade unions have had a long association with the Labour Party.

But has their influence increased in recent years? It was union votes

that swung the leadership election for Ed Miliband, and the party

relies heavily on union money for its funding. There are actors Asians

that union backed candidates are getting favourable treatment in

selection for MPs and MEPs. -- there unpopular Prime Minister, the battle

between Blairites and Brownite still raw and active, some candidates,

both good and mediocre, was simply swept aside. Rebuilding the party

ahead of the Euro elections in 2014, there have urged voices that

claim some have been excluded from standing under their party banner

because they are missing something - the outright backing of a union. I

think the criticism that has come from some in the party is that the

trade unions are trying to take over, in some way, the selection

process for the European elections. For me, that is not a particularly

credible claim. A lot of fingers can be pointed that Labour Party

selections, unions is just one part of a much more complex whole. The

rules have not changed in recent years for Labour Party selections,

these rules were put in place by Tony Blair. But I certainly think

there is a much greater assertion on behalf of the trade unions that they

want to have a bigger say in selections. Ramsay MacDonald's first

Labour government of 1924 contained both the well-to-do and a worker,

socialist intellectuals and the brightest union men, and like all

parties, especially when they are facing calls of internal division,

it has remained a broad church, which is why some are worried it is

becoming less so under pressure from the union movement. If we are going

to be a one nation party, that means governing for the whole community,

and that includes working people, people in business. We need the

energy and enterprise that very often businesspeople bring. Building

that coalition is the way we won three general elections, we have to

keep hold of that coalition. I'm not sure if union backed candidates are

squeezing out other candidates. Why was backed by a lot of trade unions,

but ultimately it comes down to which candidate convinces the

hundreds of party members in a particular constituency that they

should vote for them. It is one member, one vote. Unions can make

nominations, certainly, but when it comes down to it, it is the local

party members who will make a decision on who they think is the

best person to be the candidate. suggestion is that the rules of

selection for candidates, which give 13 weeks for canvassing members

before the run-off, favour those who have financial backing. And

canvassing structure, from a union. But however, no rules have been

broken. There is a legitimate question to be asked about how we

level the playing field so that people who do not have personal

means or are not able to secure support financially from elsewhere,

can compete on a level playing field. And string that question is

tricky within Labour. With potential electoral consequences, as we

found, unions and concerned would-be candidates are unwilling to state

their case. Stella Creasy, can you get selected

as a Labour candidate without union backing? Of course. There is a wide

range of people. What is overwhelming if the number and range

of people coming forward. It is heartening to see people do that. It

is a difficult job. Seeing arrange of people, particularly the number

of women who want to stand up is impressive. No one denies that women

have done well under Labour in terms of selection and becoming MPs, but

it does not answer the question, can you do it from whatever background

you come from without union backing? Yes, you can, but it is difficult.

The result was a debate between political parties about how you make

sure you get the broadest and best range of people coming forward will

stop am involved with the women's network which is looking at ways we

can get more women to stand. It is not just coming for it, it is about

time. Not everybody has it perfect, but is the union involved? It is a

small part of a bigger picture. say it is small, but there is a

perception, and it might be backed up by fact in certain

constituencies, but actually the unions, as we have heard in that

film, not only are the exercising muscle in her dad at -- at the early

stages, but they want to exercising more. Of the perception that a

politician has to be a man of a certain age in a suit. We are

showing that that can be broken. I'll make no apology for the role of

the trade unions. And you were backed by a trade union? No, I am

from the cooperative part. Formerly, I was a labourer and co-operative

MP. Before we carry on, we can join our viewers from Scotland, who are

now watching the Daily Politics. are speaking about the involvement

of unions in the selection of Labour candidates. Perceptions can be

argued about but there is this specific and sample of an

Fairweather -- specific example of an Fairweather, who was excluded.

Crime seems to have been to have worked in business and not be one of

the chosen candidates of the unions. Why was she left out?

her and she was fantastic. fantastic enough. Understand more

than 100 people applied. Frankly, some people would struggle to name

their MEP, let alone their MP. did not have union backing? I know

that that 100, many people did not. -- of that 100. I know London, and

we now have eight fantastic candidates standing and there is an

issue about where they come on the shortlist. There will always be

questions about what role member state in the process. Actually, it

is dismissive of her to say that she did not have something fantastic to

give, and to say that the only thing that the people who did get it had

was union membership. The trouble was there was a very high quality of

people standing. Why does Peter Watt say that it is an old-fashioned

stitch up? He's not going person from within Labour to say this.

did not come from an union background. So he is wrong?I think

in different places, there are allegations. There will always be

concerns. What matters for me is that people like and get a chance.

Let us look at the cost. How can you afford to do it unless you have

backing, and you are someone with money themselves, personal means?

You would have to have some sort of sponsorship. Absolutely. There is an

issue about the cost. All political parties are struggling with that. We

find within the labour women's network that if you have child care

commitments, it is like going through many Christmases, were you

meet a lot of relatives. You are talking to a lot of people and it is

time it -- time intensive. And it is right that the unions fill that gap?

And do not think that is the case. Some local areas do short

selections, some do wrong selections. There will always be an

issue about the role of any one organisation in a movement like the

labour movement. There is a wider debate and I'm somebody who has

always been supportive of the reform of that relationship. In terms of

what you were talking about, you are talking about perception, not

reality. The trade unions, if they really had as much influence as

people in the media like to say, why do they always complain about their

lack of influence? Well, they want even more influence, if you listen

to them. In the case of the Conservative party, the

Conservatives complain about influence from the unions endlessly

about in terms of getting a broad range of people, it does not appear

to have worked at Number Ten. The reality is that it is full of all

the Taureans which has not been helpful to the perception of the

Tory party. In the end, you had to have in a list. We are all about

merit. We want the best possible candidates. Really, local

collections are important. -- local connections. We have an open and

rigorous process. And we have made enormous strides forward. I am part

of the new 2010 intake and there is a huge server city of backgrounds.

How many working-class candidates? What is a working-class person?

tell me. Jacob Rees Mogg? I can tell you about the candidates that we

have just selected. We have a boxing trainer, somebody who is a postman,

we have small business people, veterinary surgeons, teachers. We

have soldiers, charity workers. The a list has worked extremely well in

the last Parliament and in this parliament were using different

processes. Why are you not going for the a list again? The party has

moved on. We did not have enough women in Parliament before 4010. And

we really made such drives forward. That you do not need it? We built on

that process. The grassroots get it. This CD broad range women that

have come in, and they see the good job. We do not need that. They

voluntarily choose the best possible candidates. -- they see the broad

range. But you would not have needed to impose the a list if you trusted

them to choose the right people. was about giving them a broad

range. The Conservative party is always the choice of local people.

Lorely Burt, you know that the record of the party is terrible in

terms of numbers of women and ethnic naughty MPs. The Lib Dems... At

least Labour have increased the numbers of women and so have the

Conservatives. What are the Liberal Democrats going to do? We have a

process where we train up people. Particularly from areas where we are

missing. So women, people from poorer backgrounds, ethnic

minorities, disabled people. Just about everybody, really, except for

upper-middle-class white man. the areas where we are under

represented. At the last general election we had some excellent women

and ethnic minorities candidates, but not in safe seats. Safe seats

are a challenge. If we had one of you seek, you would have seen a

different picture stop -- one AQ seats. We are not funded by big

business or unions, we are funded by our members. Would you like women

shortlists? I would love it. But unfortunately we are too democratic,

it is so annoying! We have managed all women shortlists completely

voluntarily. Only one in five MPs are women and I

cannot turn around to a community where 51% of people are women and

say that Parliament gets it. Every political movement has you have this

conversation about prejudice. We have had that and we have done

something about it. We will support anyone else having a debate because

we need to get to 50-50. completely agree. We have got

agreement. We have an apology to make to Stella

Creasy. We said earlier that ten people had been prosecuted for the

minimum wage violations, and that turns out not to be true. We

apologise. It was eight. And I'd apologise to you, Andrew, because I

have missed red something. I stand corrected. -- Ms rent. Apologies all

round. There is still time.Anyway, eight minimum rage violation

prosecutions according to the HMRC document. I will go back and check

what it was that made me think it was different and I will tweet you.

Full disclosure. Life does not get better. The organisation which

represents councils across England and Wales say that they risked

failing their communities if further cuts are imposed. The Local

Government Association has submitted their response ahead of the June

Spending Review for 2015. They say that the council is having to make

savings on average of �64 million in the calling on the government to end

the ring fencing of health and schools budgets as well as removing

the requirement to hold a referendum if you want to increase council tax

by more than 2%. We're joined now by the vice-chair of the Local

Government Association, a Labour council leader for Dudley. David

Sparks joins us from Birmingham. Welcome. Now, councils overall will

lose 2 billion a year from uncollected council tax. Another �2

billion from fraud, and you have �16 billion of reserves, so what are you

moaning about. Oh, dear. We cannot hear him. We cannot even hear if he

is still mourning because I'm sorry, Mr sparks, and my viewers, we have

lost the sense to Birmingham. David Sparks, I apologise. Could you say

something, anything, so that we can work out if we can you do? No, we're

not. All right. We will go back to Birmingham. Third time lucky, I'm

told. David Sparks? Hooray! Let me ask you the question again. It is

easier for you know you have time to think about it. You are losing �2

billion a year from uncollected council tax, �2 billion from fraud

and you have �16 billion in the bank, so what are you moaning about?

We have collected 97% of council tax each year, which is far in excess of

central government, which has 20 billion pounds in unpaid tax. In

relation to the reserves, we have worked out that if we use the

reserves to fund the gap that we have got, money would run out in

five years. This is irrelevant in relation to the fundamental problem

that we have, which is that in 2020, if current things carry on as they

are, there will be a funding gap in this country of �16.5 billion in

local government. But by 2020, we barely know what is quick to happen

next year, let alone 2020. What is the situation going to be next

year, in your view? The situation next year is that it will be the

fourth year of a reduction of over 33%. Already, councils are in an

extreme position. We have had to make massive cuts which we do not

want to make. It is a tipping point now. The situation is going to be

that councils throughout the country representing millions of people will

be making further cuts, unless the government comes to its senses and

finances local government sensibly. Is it true that you want to end the

discount for council tax for single occupancy? We want to look at the

old question of how much we raise in income in relation to local

government. We have suggested to the government a range of suggestions in

our contribution, so that we can increase the income and we can also

make further economies and efficiencies in public sector

funding across the community on the whole. Was that a yes or a no?We're

still looking at it. This business of needing a referendum to increase

council tax by more than 2%, I understand you wanted to raise it by

more than 2%, but you found it was going to go down like a lead balloon

with voters. No, quite the opposite, Dudley pioneered the way with our

consultation with our electorate before we went to the question of a

referendum. We had a situation where a quarter of the public in Dudley

wanted to increase council tax by over 2%, but the majority wanted to

keep it either the same, a frozen level... That was my point.We went

along with what the public wanted, which is what we are supposed to do

in a local democracy. You are making local councils pay for the

Government's deficit-reduction. Sorry, I am asking the Conservative

representative here. I have been a councillor, and it is tough for

councillors. We have had to make cuts across government because we

decided not to cut the NHS and education, and that does mean that

there have been cuts, that local authorities are having to do things

differently, but we also gave them a massive shift in power from

Westminster to local communities to do things differently. And what I

see is that some councils are grasping this opportunity, getting

people around the table, actually improving services, while freezing

or even, in some parts of the country, cutting council tax. What

this gentleman did not mention was the new resources, all councils own

their council houses, they keep all the revenue locally. Business rates

have been localised, council tax benefit, the pupil premium, the new

homes discount, all sorts of new income streams for councils. It is

uncomfortable for some of them. Those who just want hands out from

Westminster, they want that dependency, they are struggling with

this. But once you love local democracy What do you say to that?

Local authorities have had their budgets cut by 33%, central

government has only cut by 10%, so it is not a fair share of the cards.

In relation to local business tax, that is welcome in terms of being

localised, but the Treasury are continually taking a huge chunk of

the money. So having greater freedom to make more cuts is no freedom at

all. You have also... You failed to mention the New Homes Bonus and the

transfer of NHS money into adult social care. Munsell councils, most

first-tier councils, their biggest responsibility is caring for

people. -- most councils. Extra money is being passed from the NHS

to councils, and these art of times, but we must prioritise... This is a

separate budget, this is spoken for. This is extra money, in addition to

that. No, it is not. Again, further inaccuracies. The fact of the matter

is that the NHS budget is ringfenced. We would like to have

greater access to that so we could have more economies. If local

government had more money in relation to adult social care, there

would be fewer people in beds in hospitals, and the hospitals would

be more efficient. We are at cross purposes. The gentleman is right

about the public health budget, that is not what I am talking about. This

is about the integration of NHS and social care, social care budgets. I

am really proud of my authority, they have not cut adult social care

at all, they are working on new and innovative ways to make sure there

is better care in the community, more joined up services with the

NHS... There are areas which will have far greater social problems to

deal with, and when... It is hard to imagine that in Cornwall...

necessarily is populated as some of the other parts of the country.

Prime Minister's own local government is getting an increase,

and Liverpool, which most of us would recognise as a lot of

problems, is getting an 8% cut in funding. It is disingenuous to

suggest that local government is not bearing the brunt of these cuts.

you agree with the cap on council tax rises? My council has managed to

freeze it, but the bigger problem is that he is right when he talks about

the problems they are facing. We are wasting a lot of money in our NHS. I

am doing casework of people being discharged from hospital and social

services not being told. If you take an approach just based on a budget,

you make short-term decisions, like this government is making, with

long-term, expensive costs. We need to be working... But let's be

honest, under the Alistair Darling plan, spending for local government

was to be cut as well. Correct? have been talking about whole person

you want, but under the Alistair Darling plan, local government

spending was to be cut. Everyone was clear that the deficit needed to be

reduced, the question is how you do it, and this government is racking

up costs. Well, yes, I understand that some councils are having

difficulties, but we are introducing a damping process so that the worst

hit councils will only be cut by a very small percentage, about 3% or

less. That is not what Stella was saying about Liverpool. I will try

to get this right, a 7% cut in funding, which is in contrast with

Whitney getting an increase! Sparks, have you seen the

Department's recommendations, 50 ways for councils to save money,

have you tried any of these? We are trying everything we can, inventing

new ways of saving money, but at the end of the day we will literally

have 16.5 billion funding gap in the next couple of years, and that is

something that is not going to go away. Thank you for joining us

today. Sorry about the sound problems at the beginning there,

thank you very much. Now, my microphone is working! For a

few hours yesterday, politics was put to one side as the Queen opened

a new session of Parliament with a speech in the Lords, and when MPs

reassembled in the laws, proceedings began, as by tradition, would be

humble address, a sort of after-dinner speech, this year

proposed by Peter Luff and seconded Mr Speaker, it is a great honour to

propose the loyal address, but the invitation from the Chief Whip to do

so means I must accept an uncomfortable truth, that for 21

years of service means I fit into the traditional role all too easily

of old buffer! No, surely not!Way back in 1996, as I approached my

first real election, my son at his father described in a BBC

documentary as a middle-aged politician. That phrase resonated in

his eight-year-old mind. For years after, birthday cards came to the

acronym MAP, children certainly keep you grounded. I thought it was a

premature description, but I have moved beyond that. I have decided to

leave this place at the next election. Shame!I suspect the news

of Sir Alex Ferguson's retirement will attract more interest in the

outside world. Having just conducted my first rebellion in 21 years, and

enough! I had not been anticipating to be offered this opportunity.

Prime Minister and I were born within 48 hours of each other, and

for the avoidance of doubt, he is the older of the two. I can see from

this vantage point that genetics has been kinder than him than it has to

me, particularly in the tonsorial Department, both in colour and

cover. While our family and school circumstances were indeed quite

different, we must have had similar cultural reference points and

experiences in the 1970s and 1980s. I believe he was a fan of the

Smiths, although I understand the feeling is not entirely mutual. I

preferred Duranty ran -- Duran Duran and ABBA, with my favourite song

being Dancing Queen, which will not come as a surprise! That leads me

into the social reform of gay marriage. The right for same-sex

couples to demonstrate their love and commitment to each other before

family and friends will be a lasting social reform of this Parliament,

the legislation is brought forward by this coalition government, but it

is supported by members from all parties around the house. Bristol

West has three Quaker meeting house is, a Unitarian chapel, and a reform

synagogue, so I am sure that the country's first same-sex marriage

may be on my own constituency, but personally, Mr Speaker, I am still

waiting for my own Prince Charming, so I will not be able to take... I

may be able to take advantage of ordinary people? If you listen to

that, I think it has answered itself! Too often not, according to

Liam Fox, who has called on the leadership to speak in the language

of the pub. The Prime Minister made a good start yesterday morning when

he realised that pubs might not be full of people discussing the

Queen's Speech but the resignation of a certain football manager

instead. Shortly after 2am yesterday, I will say that again,

2am in the morning, he tweeted, Sir reference to the Aston Villa, like I

am bothered! Showing he is down with time in the morning?! It is not

after that, reminding the Labour lead that actually Mr Ferguson had

not really died, he had just resigned! All right, so the party

leaders are at least trying to get it, but how in touch are their MPs?

Well, ladies, you will be pleased to know, oh, yes, we have got a little

quiz to find out how in touch UI with popular culture! Stella, Lucky

you, number one, how many convictions were there under the

minimum wage... ? Stop it!You both got it wrong, actually! Who is not

in the running to replace Alex Ferguson as the next manager of

Mourinho. I grew up in Manchester, so they are my team. He was in the

running. It is Steven Gerrard.We have got to move on, who is number

guess number one. You are wrong, it is Daft Punk! Lorely Burt, we cannot

let you go, which East Enders character is reportedly set to make

made our point! Special thanks to our three guests, the one o'clock

news is starting on BBC One. I will be back tonight for This Week on BBC