21/05/2013 Daily Politics


21/05/2013

Jo Coburn presents the latest political news and debate from Westminster, including the revolt over gay marriage and a look back at the coalition negotiations, with Lord Adonis.


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Politics. David Cameron nurses his wounds after the rebellion last

:00:45.:00:50.

night by over 100 Conservative MPs against gay marriage. The proposals

:00:50.:00:56.

passed with the help of Labour, but many backbenchers are unhappy. Alex

:00:56.:01:00.

Salmond posts a report which he says shows Britain -- Scotland would be

:01:00.:01:04.

better off as an independent nation.

:01:04.:01:07.

Hot sauce entrepreneur Levi Roots joins us to discuss the government

:01:08.:01:11.

scheme to help the unemployed start own businesses.

:01:11.:01:15.

And could the coalition talks of 2010 ever have resulted in a Lib-Lab

:01:15.:01:19.

pact? We will bring together two keep

:01:19.:01:28.

layers from those five days in May. -- two key players. With us for the

:01:28.:01:32.

whole programme is the former Labour Transport Secretary and Education

:01:32.:01:37.

Minister Andrew Adonis. Let's start with a Scottish

:01:37.:01:39.

government report published this morning which makes the economic

:01:39.:01:45.

case for independence. Speaking in the last hour, Scotland's First

:01:45.:01:50.

Minister Alex Salmond said the UK Government had held Scotland back

:01:50.:01:54.

for decades. Economic policy at the present moment is largely determined

:01:54.:02:03.

at Westminster. Westminster refused to invest Scotland's resources for

:02:03.:02:06.

future generations, Westminster has cut capital investment in a

:02:06.:02:11.

recession. The one thing you must not do is cut back on investment in

:02:11.:02:16.

the future in a recession. Westminster has allowed too much of

:02:16.:02:20.

economic activity of the United Kingdom to be concentrated in the of

:02:20.:02:23.

England. We can't afford to make these mistakes in Scotland, nor can

:02:23.:02:30.

we afford to have mismanagement by governments we have never re-elected

:02:31.:02:36.

setting the economic temperature and calls for Scotland. Laura Bicker is

:02:37.:02:40.

at the event in a bus factory in Falkirk.

:02:40.:02:45.

Is there anything new we are hearing from the SNP and Alex Salmond? We

:02:45.:02:51.

have heard those arguments rehearsed many, many times by Alex Salmond.

:02:51.:02:55.

Are there new figures or new analysis? There is no new figures or

:02:55.:03:02.

analysis, but I think he is trying to ram home a message. I think the

:03:02.:03:07.

first thing to note is the venue that he chose to make his speech.

:03:07.:03:09.

This is a bus manufacturing depot right in the heart of Scotland in

:03:09.:03:16.

Falkirk, it employs 900 people and ships buses right across the world,

:03:16.:03:20.

low carbon buses using special technology to Malaysia, Hong Kong,

:03:20.:03:25.

Australia. This is the kind of manufacturing plants that Alex

:03:25.:03:29.

Salmond says would do better if decisions were made in Hollywood

:03:29.:03:33.

rather than Westminster. The key messages he is trying to get across

:03:33.:03:39.

that, first of all, people should not fear independence. We have had

:03:39.:03:43.

successive UK ministers coming to Scotland to put across this message

:03:43.:03:47.

that there is a risk associated with independence, financial risk. Most

:03:47.:03:52.

recently, George Osborne talked about the currency. Scotland would

:03:52.:03:57.

like to keep the pound if they became independent, the Chancellor

:03:57.:04:00.

said it would perhaps not become possible and it might put the rest

:04:00.:04:05.

of the UK at risk. Alex Salmond is saying that the real risk is if

:04:05.:04:08.

Scotland stays with Westminster. You have heard many of the points he

:04:08.:04:13.

made earlier. The second clear point he is trying to get across is that

:04:13.:04:19.

Scotland is a diverse economy with more to it than just oil and gas. We

:04:19.:04:25.

know it generates about �25 billion to the Scotland GDP. But he is

:04:25.:04:30.

trying to say that there is far more than that, there is a �14 billion

:04:30.:04:35.

turnover in the last year in manufacturing, �12 billion for food

:04:35.:04:38.

and drink. He says Scotland could do better in these industries if

:04:38.:04:43.

decisions were made here. There is very little detail in the paper, he

:04:43.:04:48.

cited two things in it, our passenger duty, which he said would

:04:48.:04:54.

be lower in an independent Scotland to allow freedom of movement and

:04:54.:04:58.

businesses to trade. He said it would be good to get a good child

:04:58.:05:02.

care policy in place so that young mums could get back to work. These

:05:02.:05:07.

are the kind of things he said an independent Scotland could do, but

:05:07.:05:12.

there is very little detail so far. He has until September 2014 to put

:05:12.:05:17.

that in place. Thank you, Laura. One of the things that will boost the

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SNP campaign is discontinuing thread that Scotland is not a priority for

:05:23.:05:28.

Westminster, it never has been, and in an ongoing difficult economic

:05:28.:05:34.

time, we are suffering in Scotland. Scotland has done extremely well out

:05:34.:05:38.

of the union and its per capita public spending is higher than in

:05:38.:05:42.

England. I think this will concentrate the minds of the Scots.

:05:42.:05:46.

To my mind, the defining moment is what Alex Salmond has said about the

:05:46.:05:51.

currency. He is saying that he wants to stay with sterling. The SNP has

:05:51.:05:54.

toyed around with the idea of Scotland in Europe, possibly the

:05:54.:05:58.

euro. If he was saying that Scotland was going to leave Stirling and join

:05:59.:06:05.

the euro... He has dropped that.A large part of his economic policy

:06:05.:06:09.

will continue to be driven by London. The Bank of England will

:06:09.:06:13.

determine his interest rates and his economic policy will be determined

:06:13.:06:18.

by what goes on in London. The Scots need to address that if they are

:06:18.:06:23.

going to stay in a currency union with England, isn't it better to

:06:23.:06:28.

have some real say in how the currency union is run? That is

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precisely the reason why I think the Scots will follow Alistair Darling

:06:31.:06:34.

and do the sensible thing, not the insane thing of keeping in a

:06:34.:06:39.

currency union with England and having no control. There will be

:06:39.:06:44.

months of debate, exactly on the issue of the currency union. Andrew

:06:44.:06:47.

Adonis is described as a rail enthusiast, but we suspect he might

:06:47.:06:52.

be more than that. As Transport Secretary he personally

:06:53.:06:56.

championed the new High Speed two rail line and inspected the nation's

:06:56.:07:04.

railway. So we wish to see how big a Trainspotting he really is. Here are

:07:04.:07:08.

four famous engines, and at the end of the programme, if you have time,

:07:08.:07:11.

we will see whether you can name them all.

:07:11.:07:17.

Are we a nation of entrepreneurs? This morning, the Department for

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work and pensions has been promoting plans to help unemployed people

:07:19.:07:22.

start up their own businesses. The new enterprise allowance was

:07:22.:07:29.

launched two years ago to encourage people to consider self-employment.

:07:29.:07:33.

Participants get action is to a volunteer businessmen tour providing

:07:33.:07:36.

guidance and support as they develop their business plan. Once they

:07:36.:07:42.

participant has had their plan approved and start training, they

:07:42.:07:47.

can access financial support consisting of an allowance worth

:07:47.:07:52.

�1274 over 26 weeks, and the facility to access a loan of up to

:07:52.:07:57.

�1000 to help with start-up costs. The scheme aims to create 40,000 new

:07:57.:08:05.

businesses by 2015. By November 20 15,210 loans had been taken out

:08:05.:08:11.

across England. This morning, the government has been promoting its

:08:11.:08:18.

latest recruit, the entrepreneur and hot sauce salesman Levi Roots. He is

:08:18.:08:22.

an ambassador for entrepreneurship, and he has already been put to work.

:08:22.:08:27.

Have you ever thought about being your own boss? Using your skills to

:08:27.:08:33.

do a job your way? You are not alone. The thing that puts most

:08:33.:08:36.

people off becoming self-employed is the thought of doing it by

:08:36.:08:40.

themselves. The job centre plus new enterprise allowance can provide the

:08:40.:08:45.

support you need to get started in business, to do the job you want,

:08:45.:08:50.

your way. You can use your skills and experience to do something you

:08:50.:08:57.

really enjoy. Levi Roots has joined us, as has the Pensions Minister,

:08:57.:09:00.

Mark Hoban. How important our schemes like this? Would it have

:09:00.:09:10.
:09:10.:09:12.

helped you? Absolutely, I started out like this. I met my first mental

:09:12.:09:19.

in 2006 -- I met my first mentor. I said that I thought I had a source

:09:19.:09:26.

which could outsell Heinz Camacho catsup, and he showed me the door!

:09:26.:09:33.

-- Heinz tomato ketchup. Here is a mental, somebody in June to you I

:09:33.:09:43.
:09:43.:09:45.

am. That's here is a mentor. have to be able to get off the

:09:45.:09:52.

ground. It is about personality, and you have a big personality, it is a

:09:52.:09:56.

winning formula. What sort of businesses will you be mentoring?

:09:56.:10:01.

am working with the young boy from south London, which resonates with

:10:01.:10:05.

me. He has a great skateboarding business, fantastic passion and a

:10:05.:10:09.

great opportunity, but he lacks the advice from somebody like me, a

:10:09.:10:14.

mentor or a role model he can be in June with. What sort of advice are

:10:14.:10:20.

you giving? Just seeing somebody a bit like himself, perhaps from a

:10:20.:10:23.

similar area with a similar background, or are you giving hard,

:10:23.:10:31.

gritty business advice? Hard-core advice, and making the crucial calls

:10:31.:10:37.

that he perhaps will not make. I would have the experience that was

:10:37.:10:42.

instilled into me, I now want to pass it onto a young entrepreneur.

:10:42.:10:48.

You think he will succeed? I think so, I believe he has the tools the

:10:48.:10:52.

passion. The money helps, but having somebody around who can help showing

:10:52.:10:57.

you how to use the money is the crucial thing. You will get that

:10:57.:11:02.

involved? That will make a big difference? But coming onto the

:11:02.:11:08.

money, you had an investment of �50,000, a sizeable investment from

:11:08.:11:18.
:11:18.:11:18.

two Dragons. The amounts here, �65 a week, it sounds poultry. That the

:11:18.:11:22.

initial money you need to start the business, because before I got to

:11:22.:11:29.

dragons den, I needed the initial help, I did not go there as a first

:11:29.:11:39.
:11:39.:11:42.

step, my business was ready for the next step. And this gives you that

:11:42.:11:47.

first step. How do you judge who gets the money? Bee people come into

:11:47.:11:54.

the job centre, they have a new idea from day one. We have a network

:11:55.:11:58.

dividing advice from people like Dean who we saw this morning, or

:11:58.:12:04.

Natasha, who was setting up a counselling business. The mentor's

:12:04.:12:08.

will work with somebody, they will look at their business plan, they

:12:08.:12:11.

will look at whether or not it will be successful, if they give the

:12:11.:12:15.

planned a green light, the people get the money and they will be paid

:12:15.:12:21.

a weekly sum over 26 weeks, six months, to help them get off the

:12:21.:12:24.

ground. There are some really good quality people giving advice, people

:12:24.:12:29.

like Levi and others with experience of business, helping young

:12:29.:12:32.

entrepreneurs setting up a business to look after themselves and their

:12:32.:12:38.

families. You will rely on people like Levi to root out the dead-end

:12:38.:12:44.

ideas which will just not make it to money? The mentors that we have in

:12:44.:12:51.

place are good at defining the opportunities. �65 a week for the

:12:51.:12:54.

first 13 weeks, �33 a week for a further 13 weeks, do you really

:12:54.:12:58.

think that is enough? It helps people when they are starting to

:12:58.:13:05.

earn a living. They are getting their benefits, once they... If they

:13:05.:13:10.

are going to have their business plan approved, the benefit has two

:13:10.:13:14.

stop and they have to start trading. In the absence of the scheme they

:13:14.:13:19.

would get nothing. They would get their benefit. If they are not

:13:19.:13:24.

looking for work, they do not get benefits. We are giving them

:13:24.:13:26.

financial support which they would not otherwise get to tide them over

:13:26.:13:30.

the first period of trading, to give them the confidence of money coming

:13:31.:13:38.

in, so they take that idea, grow it and develop it. It is real support,

:13:38.:13:42.

people want to get off the ground. There are fantastic stories from

:13:42.:13:46.

around the country, people who have taken advantage of this. In Grimsby,

:13:46.:13:51.

a chap recognise that if you go to hospital you might not have pyjamas,

:13:51.:13:56.

so he set up a kiosk selling pyjamas in the hospital. It only has

:13:56.:14:01.

provided a job for him, he has taken an apprentice. Somebody unemployed

:14:01.:14:09.

in Glasgow who had worked in the care sector provided a tucking in

:14:09.:14:11.

service for elderly people, she is now employing nine people who were

:14:11.:14:15.

previously unemployed. We need people like Levi acting as mentors,

:14:15.:14:20.

role models. But we have a problem of exploding and employment, and the

:14:20.:14:25.

idea that this will be a big solution, I don't think is correct.

:14:25.:14:28.

But for those who have set of these companies it will be life changing,

:14:28.:14:34.

and having mentors like Levi is the right way. Is it right way for tax

:14:34.:14:42.

payers money to be spent? Just over 15,000 loans. That is not a bad

:14:42.:14:52.
:14:52.:14:53.

amount... We rely on people like Levi to show that it will go one

:14:53.:14:59.

good propositions. But we need really good role models. How many

:14:59.:15:06.

mentors have you got? Over 15,000 businesses have started, we have

:15:06.:15:09.

provided advice to 30,000 people interested in getting a business

:15:09.:15:15.

going. The people I have spoken to today are helping to support

:15:15.:15:19.

businesses in South London, and they say 75% of the ones they have worked

:15:19.:15:24.

with have survived a year, a good track record given how precarious

:15:24.:15:29.

small businesses can be. It is one of a range of ways in which we have

:15:29.:15:32.

to help people get back into work and look after themselves and their

:15:32.:15:38.

families. How hard is it for businesses to start about the

:15:38.:15:42.

moment? Very difficult. We look at this thing about self-employment, it

:15:42.:15:48.

is a lonely world out there. Part of the reason and part of the message I

:15:48.:15:53.

am hoping is to tell people that they are not alone. There is

:15:53.:15:58.

fantastic help, people are azure crew willing to stay the course with

:15:58.:16:03.

you. It is not just the money. The money is small, but the advice and

:16:03.:16:07.

the mentorship is perhaps the best thing. How often are you meeting

:16:07.:16:13.

with some of the business people you are mentoring? Once a week, do they

:16:13.:16:18.

phone you and say, Levi, come over? It is going really badly and I need

:16:18.:16:24.

your help? It is an open book. They can have my e-mail address. We will

:16:24.:16:29.

converse. It is about hands-on help. A bit like a Peter Jones made the

:16:29.:16:34.

crucial call for me. I am hoping I will be able to make a call for some

:16:34.:16:42.

of these entrepreneurs. There is an old saying in Parliament that it is

:16:42.:16:48.

the opposition who are in front of you and the enemies behind you. Last

:16:48.:16:52.

night the Government pushed throughs its Same-Sex Marriage Bill with the

:16:52.:16:56.

support of Labour and in the face of opposition from many on its own

:16:56.:17:02.

side. Here a flavour of the debate. -- here is a flavour of the debate.

:17:02.:17:07.

This Bill has a single important and straightforward purpose to extend

:17:07.:17:11.

marriage to same-sex couples. And I'm delighted that the major

:17:11.:17:15.

political parties on the front benches are unanimous in the view

:17:15.:17:20.

that this is ants essential objective and I'm grateful for their

:17:20.:17:25.

unwavering support. It has been reassuring to see the other parties

:17:25.:17:30.

sharing my determination to ensure that nothing derailed or delays this

:17:30.:17:34.

very important piece of legislation. If you are a same-sex couple you

:17:34.:17:38.

have no justice at all. It is not about fairness, there is no justice,

:17:38.:17:44.

you cannot be married. And it seems to me to be grossly unfair to

:17:44.:17:52.

continue to perpetuate an injustice particularly the proposal in this

:17:52.:17:57.

amendment is accepted tonight. a free vote. We are in danger of

:17:57.:18:03.

being party to a stitch-up, a last minute stitch-up between front

:18:03.:18:12.

benches, but this is a free vote, not on a conscience issue, but on

:18:12.:18:17.

equality. Whether they are whipped to support the Bill or will defy the

:18:17.:18:20.

whip to oppose it. There are people in this House who are supporting

:18:20.:18:24.

this amendment for the opposite reason. I do not include my

:18:24.:18:27.

honourable friend in that. There are people who are breathing the word

:18:27.:18:35.

equality for the first time. It sticks frankly in the claw of us to

:18:35.:18:37.

be lectured about equality by a group of people who have been

:18:37.:18:42.

opposing this Bill and opposing equality and opposing every measure

:18:42.:18:46.

that has come forward to promote equality in the first place

:18:46.:18:49.

including civil partnerships. I fear that the playing field is not

:18:49.:18:54.

being levelled. I believe that the pendulum is swinging so far the

:18:54.:19:02.

other way and there are plenty in the aggress aggressive homosexual

:19:02.:19:07.

community who see this as a stepping stone to something even further.

:19:07.:19:13.

Well, that was the debate yesterday. Let's get the latest from Carole

:19:13.:19:16.

Walker. Hugely divisive for the Conservatives, but where are we now

:19:16.:19:20.

with the Bill? Well, the debate will continue in the Commons this

:19:20.:19:24.

afternoon, Jo, and there are more amendments down and there will be a

:19:24.:19:28.

further vote in principle on what is called the third reading, another

:19:29.:19:32.

important milestone in the Bill this evening. The expectation is that it

:19:32.:19:37.

will get through the Commons with a similar figures to the votes that we

:19:37.:19:41.

have seen in the past. More than 100 Conservative MPs perhaps voting

:19:41.:19:44.

against it, but with the support of Labour and the Liberal Democrats,

:19:44.:19:47.

the Government will get through this milestone. It does go on to the

:19:47.:19:51.

House of Lords where it could face quite a difficult ride. But clearly,

:19:51.:19:55.

I think, the Prime Minister thinks that this is an important issue. He

:19:55.:20:00.

will press on with this, but the legacy that it will leave, in terms

:20:00.:20:05.

of the difficulties within its own party, I think, it is something that

:20:05.:20:08.

is going to be difficult for him to overcome. He sent this e-mail out

:20:08.:20:12.

today. It is something when a Prime Minister has to send an e-mail to

:20:12.:20:17.

his party members saying, " I really wasn't sneering at you." Many MPs

:20:17.:20:22.

and activists will be looking him to say, " Well, if you really care

:20:22.:20:26.

about our feelings then you have got to show that in what you do and say

:20:26.:20:32.

in the coming months." highlighted the disconnect between

:20:32.:20:35.

David Cameron and his party and we have yet to see if the relationship

:20:35.:20:40.

can be fixed. How much does David Cameron have to fear from his

:20:40.:20:46.

backbenchers. Some of whom feel he hasn't been leading the party on the

:20:46.:20:51.

key issues of Europe and gay marriage? There is a sense of

:20:51.:20:54.

frustration that every time David Cameron does something which is aP

:20:54.:21:00.

mrauded amongst his own -- applauded amongst his MPs that is not followed

:21:00.:21:06.

up with action. We had as one MP put it, four months of inactivity after

:21:06.:21:11.

that speech during which time UKIP then made great strides and did very

:21:11.:21:16.

well in the local elections. I think David Cameron now does face a series

:21:16.:21:21.

of tests and the first one will be the Government's handling of that

:21:21.:21:24.

Private Members' Bill on a European referendum. I think MPs will be

:21:24.:21:29.

looking to see if the part of the Government does do all it can to

:21:29.:21:34.

make sure that that gets some passage through Parliament. As one

:21:34.:21:38.

senior figure in the party said to me, he has got to start governing as

:21:38.:21:43.

though he is in a coalition with the Conservatives rather thatten thatten

:21:43.:21:47.

than looking at his Lib Dem coalition partners. MPs and

:21:47.:21:50.

activists would like to see him standing up to the Lib Dems more and

:21:50.:21:52.

pushing some core Conservative issues.

:21:52.:21:57.

Carole Walker, thank you very much. Are David Cameron was chosen as

:21:57.:22:01.

Conservative leader because in a way he was different to many grass-roots

:22:01.:22:06.

Tories, young, moderniser, a little bit like Tony Blair. So who is it

:22:06.:22:10.

that's out-of-touch in this argument within the Conservative Party? Is it

:22:10.:22:14.

grass-roots Tories or David Cameron? I think David Cameron is in touch

:22:14.:22:18.

with middle opinion which is in favour of gay marriage and I am glad

:22:18.:22:23.

all three parties united to support it. And Carole mentioned it going to

:22:23.:22:27.

the House of Lords. I suspect it would have a majority in the House

:22:27.:22:30.

of Lords. The thing I find disappointing what is going to

:22:30.:22:34.

happen in the House of Lords is the position of the Church of England.

:22:34.:22:39.

The bishops headed by the Archbishop of Canterbury are opposing gay

:22:39.:22:43.

marriage and opposing the right of vicars who want to conduct gay

:22:43.:22:48.

marriages to allow their churches to be used for that purpose. In two or

:22:48.:22:51.

three years time that will look like a serious mistake and a back ward

:22:51.:22:55.

looking position on the part of the Church of England.

:22:55.:22:58.

But you think it will pass? I think so with a big majority.

:22:58.:23:06.

When you talk about the Church of England. The views chime with many

:23:06.:23:09.

of not just Conservative voters in the country who feel strongly on

:23:09.:23:14.

this issue? Opinion is moving. And the polls I see show a majority in

:23:14.:23:17.

favour of gay marriage and it is a basic issue of equality and with

:23:17.:23:20.

each passing month. Those who are prepared to argue on principle

:23:20.:23:24.

against equality are finding it harder and harder to do so. What was

:23:24.:23:33.

telling about the debate yesterday was Nick Herbert's speech. The

:23:33.:23:36.

argument for equality is to allow gay marriage.

:23:36.:23:39.

Tomorrow hundreds of solicitors and barristers from all over England and

:23:39.:23:42.

Wales are planning to demo in Westminster against the Government's

:23:42.:23:47.

plans to cut criminal Legal Aid. The Ministry of Justice is consulting on

:23:47.:23:55.

plans that will save �220 million. BBC West Midlands reporter,

:23:55.:24:00.

Elizabeth Glinka has been to Birmingham University's law school

:24:00.:24:04.

to cross-examine witnesses. The key point to look at... What

:24:04.:24:08.

price justice? Legal Aid for criminal cases costs the taxpayer

:24:08.:24:11.

over �1 billion a year. The Government wants that to come down

:24:11.:24:14.

and is consulting on plans to restructure the system, cutting the

:24:14.:24:20.

number of firms allowed to defend criminal cases from 13600 to just

:24:20.:24:25.

400. Instead of choosing your lawyer, you will be assigned one

:24:26.:24:30.

from a Government approved list from a firm which has agreed to work for

:24:30.:24:40.

at least 17. 5% less than it charges at the moment. . Client choice goes

:24:40.:24:44.

out of the window. The inhe centretive is there for the

:24:44.:24:47.

solicitor to do a good job. When that solicitor does a good job, it

:24:47.:24:51.

the clients come back and refer other clients to us.

:24:52.:24:56.

So rich lawyers are less rich. Why does that matter? Well, what about

:24:56.:25:00.

if you want your day in court like these Birmingham students? Your

:25:00.:25:05.

lawyer would be paid the same whether they take your case to trial

:25:05.:25:11.

or advice you to plead guilty. obvious fear is they will be putting

:25:11.:25:15.

pressure on the clients to plead guilty so they can get on with their

:25:15.:25:21.

next guilty plea and they don't have to waste the time doing the trial.

:25:21.:25:24.

The consultation on the plans ends on the 4th June and the scheme could

:25:24.:25:30.

be up and running as early as next year. Under the it changes, 36 firms

:25:30.:25:37.

would be awarded contracts across the Midlands. There are 55 operating

:25:37.:25:42.

in Birmingham alone. Which could mean law firms going out of business

:25:43.:25:46.

a worrying trend for the next generation. At the end of the day,

:25:47.:25:52.

we are in this to get a job. There is the whole want to do justice and

:25:52.:25:55.

all the ideals and everything that comes with it, but if you can't put

:25:55.:26:00.

food on the table what's the point? By saying that you should just be

:26:00.:26:03.

allowed to cut people's pay, it means you are going to get less

:26:03.:26:07.

people wanting to do it. And if there is no passion in it, you will

:26:07.:26:11.

not get the results. Access to justice should be paramount over

:26:11.:26:15.

cuts when people really need help. think whilst the Government is

:26:15.:26:20.

sensible to look at cuts, to cut them as excessively as they have in

:26:20.:26:24.

this case is just bizarre. The Government says fewer firms will

:26:24.:26:29.

mean better value for the taxpayer. The lawyers fear the quality of

:26:29.:26:30.

The lawyers fear the quality of The lawyers fear the quality of

:26:30.:26:32.

The lawyers fear the quality of justice will suffer. Elizabeth

:26:32.:26:36.

Glinka reporting and Giles Dilnot is outside Parliament with more on

:26:36.:26:38.

this. Jo, it seems to be a suggestion

:26:38.:26:41.

about the quality of justice and access to justice that is key here.

:26:41.:26:49.

What's going on? Well, Elizabeth Davis is the chair of the Legal

:26:49.:26:53.

Services Consumer Panel. The Government says that within its

:26:53.:26:57.

search for money and this is what it is, it is a search for savings, you

:26:57.:27:00.

will still get access to a descent lawyer and you will still get access

:27:00.:27:06.

when you need it to justice. What's wrong with that? Our main concern is

:27:06.:27:10.

you might get it, but you will have absence of consumer choice. And what

:27:10.:27:14.

that means in reality is, at the moment, if you have Legal Aid, you

:27:14.:27:19.

might use a provider based on how close they are to you. Their

:27:19.:27:24.

sPesism, the ex-- specialism, the expertise your case needs. It might

:27:24.:27:28.

be based on an existing relationship. Under the proposals,

:27:28.:27:33.

you will not have that choice. And under the proposals if you have real

:27:33.:27:37.

concerns about the kwaflt of -- quality of your provider, you will

:27:37.:27:41.

not be able to switch to another provider.

:27:41.:27:44.

If you are paying for it, choose as much as you like? The notion that

:27:44.:27:48.

choice as a consumer should be linked to whether you are paid or

:27:48.:27:51.

not is something I would never support and nor do I think many

:27:51.:27:56.

people would. And let me give you examples of other areas of

:27:56.:28:00.

Government policy, in healthcare, in social care and in education. The

:28:00.:28:04.

idea that choice is important is well rehearsed and well accepted.

:28:04.:28:09.

So why not here? The problem I can see is you don't represent lawyers

:28:09.:28:12.

and you don't represent clients and their customers, but lawyers will

:28:12.:28:17.

say the same sort of things, this is going to provide access to justice,

:28:17.:28:21.

but lots of people say lawyers would say that, wouldn't they because they

:28:21.:28:27.

are the greatest recipient of the pie? There is a public perception of

:28:27.:28:34.

fat cat lawyers. Le, they don't do too badly. When it

:28:34.:28:37.

comes to the pay, the fee structures, I will leave that to the

:28:37.:28:41.

representative bodies to argue that one for you. My big concern around

:28:41.:28:45.

this is access to justice, access to quality, and choice that means you

:28:45.:28:51.

can choose the provider that's best for you. When you have saving money

:28:51.:28:55.

as the key driver to any change, if all of the things that they fear are

:28:55.:28:58.

going to happen, don't happen, do you accept they are at least a risk

:28:58.:29:03.

of what could happen? Well, the reality is that those who are most

:29:03.:29:08.

vulnerable, so people who have been victims of violence, of domestic

:29:08.:29:14.

abuse, will be in receipt of Legal Aid. The big question, I think you

:29:14.:29:19.

touched upon it a minute ago, is in our country, in England and Wales,

:29:19.:29:26.

we spent �39 her head on Legal Aid. In France and other countries, it is

:29:26.:29:33.

5 or �6 per head. We are right to introduce rigour into the system and

:29:33.:29:37.

make sure money is well spent. You heard it is the perception that you

:29:37.:29:43.

have got fat cat lawyers. There are lawyers, a lawyer earned over �1

:29:43.:29:49.

million in Legal Aid fees. They are exceptions to the rule? But they are

:29:49.:29:55.

spending time on spending Legal Aid money on immigration appeals and

:29:55.:30:03.

plan ning appeals. That can't be right when we are borrow borrowing

:30:03.:30:09.

426 approximately bds a day. -- �426 billion a day.

:30:09.:30:12.

I see you sneering? It is a challenge for all areas of public

:30:12.:30:17.

service. Let's not pre-empt the outcome. Come 4th June, I would be

:30:17.:30:21.

surprised if you have a lot of responses pushing for the status

:30:21.:30:24.

quo, saying that Legal Aid is different to any other public

:30:24.:30:29.

service that they shouldn't face our fair share of economic cuts.

:30:29.:30:34.

That's good news. Never and not at the expense of quality.

:30:34.:30:38.

Absolutely right. The most important thing is better focus. The money

:30:38.:30:43.

going to those in most need. When times are tough, at times of

:30:43.:30:48.

austerity, what you do is you try and focus every taxpayer pound on

:30:48.:30:53.

those most in need. Can we see that greater transparency

:30:53.:30:58.

then? Let's see a competitive tend tendering process that has quality

:30:58.:31:02.

at the heart of it, not price. Let's see the quality monitoring processes

:31:02.:31:10.

you set in choice. How will we judge the performances of these firms?

:31:10.:31:13.

Snool I am all for transparency, the more information that we put out for

:31:13.:31:18.

people to scrutinise, we will introduce more rigour into the

:31:18.:31:23.

system. What I have a problem is very wealthy prisoners using Legal

:31:23.:31:27.

Aid to change what prison they are in. That's wrong. Let's have you

:31:27.:31:32.

back when we have had a look at whether there is transparency in the

:31:32.:31:35.

system. You nearly put me out of the job there and a good thing too. I

:31:36.:31:38.

suspect we will be out here Jo discussing this.

:31:38.:31:43.

STUDIO: You were pushed out of that conversation, weren't you, Giles?

:31:43.:31:46.

The days that followed the 2010 general election saw negotiations

:31:46.:31:49.

between the three main parties as they fought for the right to govern

:31:49.:31:55.

Britain. The talks resulted in the Lib Dem/Tory coalition we have

:31:55.:32:04.

today. Was that a foregone con cushion. -- conclusion, a

:32:04.:32:09.

documentary made by Nick Robinson, David Thompson has been looking at

:32:09.:32:15.

how the drama played out and how it might have turned out differently.

:32:16.:32:21.

Five Days That Changed Britain, we know the ending. A Conservative-Lib

:32:21.:32:27.

Dem coalition. How might it have been and what happens next?

:32:27.:32:31.

It started with one man's refusal to admit defeat.

:32:31.:32:38.

Gordon and the people around Gordon were determined so far as we could

:32:38.:32:42.

to stay in power. We saw this as a straight and important competition

:32:42.:32:43.

for power between us and the Conservatives.

:32:43.:32:47.

That meant being anal to do a deal with the man who came third, not

:32:47.:32:52.

first at the general election. The thing is at times, Labour were so

:32:52.:32:58.

close. It was ex-cruisenating. If the electorate moved 1% differently

:32:58.:33:02.

than it had, almost all of those problems would have been self

:33:02.:33:07.

resolving. After the result then I talked to Gordon Brown on three or

:33:07.:33:10.

perhaps four occasions over the critical weekend. The message I

:33:10.:33:16.

wanted to get to him was for me, and a lot of Liberal Democrats, the more

:33:16.:33:20.

natural position was to see whether or not an arrangement could be made

:33:20.:33:21.

with Labour. The conversation that really

:33:21.:33:26.

mattered for Labour was the one with the current Lib Dem leader and that

:33:26.:33:32.

was the problem. I don't think Nick found him im impossible --

:33:32.:33:38.

impossible and I think he found him a bit Gordon I shall!

:33:38.:33:43.

Then there was the lack of a plan. No, we didn't have a document of

:33:43.:33:48.

paper, a renegotiating position. I mean, we were sort of flying blind

:33:48.:33:51.

in that sense. Which gave the advantage to David

:33:51.:33:56.

Cameron. But Gordon Brown had one more dramatic shot in his locker.

:33:56.:34:01.

The reason that we have a hung parliament is that no single party

:34:01.:34:04.

and no single leader was able to win the full support of the country. As

:34:04.:34:09.

the leader of my party I must accept that that is a judgement on me. I

:34:09.:34:13.

therefore, intend to ask the Labour Party to set in train the processes

:34:13.:34:16.

needed for its own leadership election.

:34:16.:34:20.

It all changed in the last hour. is a bid by Gordon Brown to keep

:34:20.:34:24.

Labour in power. On the Monday evening, I believed there was all to

:34:24.:34:30.

play for and there was a good prospect of a Labour-Lib Dem

:34:30.:34:33.

coalition being negotiated. But it turned out like this. Is it

:34:33.:34:38.

really the end of the story or the beginning of a saga? I think the

:34:38.:34:43.

possibility exists for coalition politics to be a feature of British

:34:43.:34:49.

democracy for sometime and therefore p we in the Labour Party have got to

:34:49.:34:52.

be thinking alliance, coalition, partnership because that maybe the

:34:52.:34:58.

only way in which we get back into power or it maybe the next way we

:34:58.:35:08.
:35:08.:35:09.

Peter Mandelson ending that report. David Thompson reporting with a

:35:09.:35:19.
:35:19.:35:25.

little help from Nick Robinson. Our guest of the day Andrew Adonis has

:35:25.:35:30.

just published a book. You say you felt it was close on

:35:30.:35:38.

that Monday evening. Was it really, realistic a Lib-Lab coalition?

:35:38.:35:40.

will never know. There was a possibility. The key thing, it is

:35:40.:35:48.

clear to me, is that Nick Clegg had decided he wanted to go in with the

:35:48.:35:53.

Conservatives. That was an an honourable position. He thought they

:35:53.:35:58.

won the election and for him to try and swim against the tide was too

:35:58.:36:01.

big a thing to do. He is quite sympathetic to the Conservatives and

:36:01.:36:11.
:36:11.:36:12.

was prepared to sign up up -- sign up to their economic strategy.

:36:12.:36:17.

My party didn't prepare properly for a hung parliament. You have got to

:36:17.:36:21.

terms in terms of people and ne terms of understanding the

:36:21.:36:26.

manifestoes of the other parties. I hope Labour win the next election

:36:26.:36:31.

outright. There is no excuse for the parties not to be properly prepared.

:36:31.:36:34.

Was Nick Clegg only going to go into coalition with the Conservatives?

:36:34.:36:40.

That's not right. The second half of Andrew's analysis I agree with.

:36:40.:36:44.

Parties should prepare beforehand and that's something the Liberal

:36:44.:36:49.

Democrats had done. Nick appointed the team to do work befores hand.

:36:49.:36:56.

Some of us faced Andrew with ideas of what needed to needed to happen

:36:56.:37:01.

and it was fascinating to discover that a party that been running the

:37:01.:37:07.

country had no plan for the next step forward and that derailed the

:37:07.:37:11.

negotiations that we had with Labour.

:37:11.:37:15.

Nothing to do with the nature of Nick Clegg with David Cameron? There

:37:15.:37:19.

is now a feeling that the two of them were better matched than any

:37:19.:37:22.

match between Nick Clegg and somebody who is going to replace

:37:22.:37:28.

Gordon Brown? Well, a match with anybody with Gordon Brown would have

:37:28.:37:32.

been an interesting challenge, but leaving that particular point aside,

:37:32.:37:37.

as Menzies Campbell said if you looked at our manifesto beforehand

:37:37.:37:43.

and the Conservative manifesto and the Liberal Democrats manifesto.

:37:43.:37:46.

When we met the Labour Party negotiating team, Andrew was there,

:37:46.:37:50.

they could not give a commitment to support their policy on voting

:37:50.:37:53.

reform which by the way was something of a dilution of what we

:37:53.:37:57.

wanted to see. That lack of preparation really undermined any

:37:57.:38:02.

successful discussion with Labour. You brought it on yourselves? You

:38:02.:38:06.

talked yourselves out of a coalition with the Liberal Democrats, not just

:38:06.:38:10.

for the reasons you say, but probably because there was a sense

:38:10.:38:16.

of we can't do business with these people. People like John Reid and

:38:16.:38:20.

Andy Burnham were saying it would be a disaster? I think we could have

:38:20.:38:25.

done a deal. On the issue of voting reform, we were content to hold a

:38:25.:38:28.

referendum which is the position that... But you had nothing to talk

:38:28.:38:34.

to them about? We said that in the discussions. I don't accept it was a

:38:34.:38:36.

negotiating failure. Nick decided he wanted to go in with the

:38:36.:38:41.

Conservatives. Having said which though, it is important you make the

:38:41.:38:44.

strongest possible play that you can in a hung parliament situation.

:38:44.:38:49.

you didn't? He we could have made a stronger play and if we are in the

:38:49.:38:54.

situation again, we should do so. It is interesting. You can argue

:38:54.:38:57.

about whether Nick Clegg decided to go in with the Conservatives. In

:38:57.:39:01.

terms of the negotiating team. It took place over a period of days.

:39:01.:39:07.

Paddy Ashdown and Menzies Campbell had links with Labour? There were

:39:07.:39:12.

strong links. But Gordon and Nick didn't have strong personal

:39:12.:39:18.

relations. It is important the Prince pals they have -- principals,

:39:18.:39:24.

that they have strong relations smtz Gordon Brown said he was going to

:39:24.:39:30.

If Alan Johnson had been there, the promise of him as leader. Would it

:39:30.:39:33.

have been different? Could it have been different for Nick Clegg?

:39:33.:39:37.

don't accept the point that Nick was Tory facing. Nick said beforehand

:39:37.:39:40.

that we would if necessary enter negotiations with the party which

:39:40.:39:44.

had the largest numbering of seats. That was -- number of seats, that

:39:44.:39:49.

was the Conservatives. It could have been the Labour Party as Paddy

:39:49.:39:53.

Ashdown pointed out on that clip. It wasn't a predetermined decision to

:39:53.:39:56.

go with the Conservatives. There was a P plan to say we would discuss

:39:56.:40:01.

with the party which had the largest number of seats and that will be the

:40:01.:40:05.

position that I'm sure we will be adopting if that arises at the next

:40:05.:40:08.

election. Should Nick Clegg have got himself a

:40:08.:40:13.

department? Do you think, having gone into Government and decided

:40:13.:40:16.

that he was Deputy Prime Minister, should he have got a department?

:40:16.:40:21.

Would that have given the Liberal Democrats more influence? The role

:40:21.:40:27.

Nick has is an oversight of a wide range of department departmental

:40:27.:40:32.

initiatives in he every department. -- in every department. I have seen

:40:33.:40:38.

Andrew's comments on this. Maybe if one looks at Continental examples,

:40:38.:40:41.

you find Deputy Prime Ministers occupying major ministerial posts.

:40:41.:40:46.

If you want to have a strategic view of what a Government is achieving,

:40:46.:40:49.

you can't do that from one individual ministerial post and

:40:49.:40:53.

clearly, that was a decision that was taken by Nick. I have to say

:40:53.:41:00.

that the negotiating team at no point was discussing those matters,

:41:00.:41:03.

we were looking at the policies, not the personalities that should be

:41:04.:41:11.

leading P. That was as mistake. Nick marooned himself in the Cabinet

:41:11.:41:19.

Office. It is a clearing house. It is not an office of state.

:41:19.:41:23.

Continental governments, the second party has a significant office. In

:41:23.:41:26.

Germany, the green leader is the Foreign Minister. In Sweden, it has

:41:26.:41:29.

been Finance Minister. Having a significant departmental power base

:41:29.:41:32.

dm a Government is very important to having influence across the

:41:32.:41:35.

Government. Gordon Brown wanted a deal with the

:41:35.:41:38.

Liberal Democrats before the last election or it was talked about. Do

:41:38.:41:41.

you think there should be now proper talks with the Liberal Democrats xw

:41:41.:41:51.
:41:51.:41:51.

that he deal before 2015? I think it would be premature to talk about

:41:51.:41:56.

that. I thought we were just talking about a lack of preparatory is in

:41:56.:42:02.

the event of hung parliament. don't think we should be in the

:42:02.:42:07.

business of formerly negotiating, I think preparing means developing

:42:07.:42:09.

strong relationships between the parties, and a strong mutual

:42:09.:42:14.

understanding. You have to understand the Lib Dems to

:42:14.:42:18.

understand why people like Andrew are so mad keen on constitutional

:42:18.:42:23.

reform. My lot found it hard to understand. Unless you understand

:42:23.:42:27.

that the first, second, third and fourth concern the Lib Dems always

:42:27.:42:30.

have this House of Lords reform, you can never really get under their

:42:30.:42:36.

skin. Peter Mandelson said he didn't even know who you were before the

:42:36.:42:45.

negotiations were starting. I think I wear that badge with pride!

:42:45.:42:48.

Preparation is about, firstly, knowing what you want. If ever there

:42:48.:42:52.

was a team of people in the room who did not know what they want, it was

:42:52.:42:56.

the Labour team we met, with Ed Balls Parling one-way, Andrew

:42:56.:43:00.

valiantly pulling in another and Peter Mandelson holding the reins

:43:00.:43:04.

with some difficulty. We had in the preparatory work, we knew what the

:43:04.:43:09.

priorities were for Britain, we discuss the pupil premium and issues

:43:09.:43:12.

about budget and finances, we discussed with Labour all of those

:43:12.:43:16.

things, and their answer was nothing. We will cancel runway three

:43:16.:43:23.

at Heathrow. That is not a negotiating position. I said that I

:43:23.:43:27.

think they could have done the deal. The basic dynamics of that was

:43:27.:43:33.

moving in on David Cameron. You said that the Liberal Democrat

:43:33.:43:37.

negotiators only started talks with Labour to get an AV wrap around. As

:43:37.:43:45.

the person mad about constitutional reform, was that the nub of it?

:43:45.:43:49.

discussions with Labour, we were ready to have a full range of policy

:43:49.:43:53.

discussions which we had with the Conservatives. Looking at the

:43:53.:43:56.

coalition agreement, it is very wide-ranging in a whole scope of

:43:56.:44:01.

government departments and policies, many of which are in place now and

:44:01.:44:04.

more of which will follow, things like reform of the state pension

:44:04.:44:08.

system and someone which are fundamentally radical and, I would

:44:08.:44:14.

say, left of centre reforms, which were long overdue. We could not get

:44:15.:44:19.

any engagement with Labour on that. The fundamental decision which Nick

:44:19.:44:24.

Clegg took was to support the Osbourne plan, to go for further and

:44:24.:44:29.

faster cuts than Alistair Darling proposed. I would say to throw over

:44:29.:44:33.

the Lib Dems' own manifesto. Once they had taken up, I think the die

:44:33.:44:38.

was cast. Do you think what has happened in this coalition

:44:38.:44:44.

government will put the public off in the future? I don't think it will

:44:44.:44:48.

be determined in that way. I think the public will be voting for the

:44:48.:44:52.

party on the policies they favour, we will have to deal with the

:44:52.:44:58.

consequences. Has this government and coalition a bad name? Thank you

:44:58.:45:03.

very much. According to our next guest, the

:45:03.:45:08.

American War on drugs has cost $1 trillion, resulted in 45 million

:45:08.:45:13.

arrests yet has achieved nothing. This filmmaker argues that

:45:13.:45:18.

politicians are afraid to do anything but be tough on drug users

:45:18.:45:26.

and drug dealers. His film, The House I Live In, aims to argue for

:45:26.:45:31.

the decriminalisation of drugs. Carpenter's perspective on the

:45:31.:45:36.

severity of drug laws caught me off guard. A long time ago, we may drugs

:45:36.:45:44.

into this huge thing and we have made it so illegal and we made it

:45:44.:45:50.

such a national issue with that tough on crime stance. You can't get

:45:50.:45:56.

elected if you don't profess to be tough on crime. We have to join

:45:56.:45:59.

together to ensure that drug dealers are punished swiftly, Shirley and

:45:59.:46:05.

severely. You can't stay elected if you don't do things to be tough on

:46:05.:46:13.

crime. Build new prisons base for 24,000 inmates. Nobody wants to be

:46:13.:46:16.

the first person to say, we can't afford what we are doing, let's do

:46:16.:46:20.

something different. If you made any noise about being soft on crime in

:46:20.:46:27.

any way, you would be out of a job. Three strikes and you are out.

:46:27.:46:33.

Eugene joins us now. Wide EU say it has not worked, in broad terms, the

:46:33.:46:39.

war on drugs? We have been at this for 40 years, we have spent $1

:46:39.:46:42.

trillion, we have 2.3 million people in jail and we have an unmitigated

:46:42.:46:50.

rate of addiction. Drugs are cheaper, purer and more in use, more

:46:50.:46:55.

widely available, so I don't see how it is meant to have succeeded.

:46:55.:47:01.

is your benchmark for success? we concerned about the ravaging

:47:01.:47:04.

impact on human life, families and communities of drug addiction? We

:47:05.:47:09.

would like healthier families, individuals and communities, safer

:47:09.:47:13.

neighbourhoods, it has made American communities less safe. When you over

:47:13.:47:20.

apply the police to nonviolent dissent -- offenders, cops are

:47:20.:47:25.

racking up petty drug arrests all night and there is an closer

:47:25.:47:32.

violence in America. Communities are made less safe. We have not made

:47:33.:47:37.

communities safer, nor individual safer, we have just enriched those

:47:37.:47:43.

who profit from incarceration. a very difficult issue for

:47:43.:47:46.

politicians, very few governments have tried it on any big scale

:47:46.:47:51.

because it would not be palatable with the population, despite the

:47:52.:47:58.

litany of woes that have been associated with the war on drugs.

:47:58.:48:02.

You are kind to call it decriminalisation, we commonly here

:48:02.:48:06.

it is legalisation. That scares everyday people, they would think

:48:06.:48:10.

that overnight there would be a drug dealer in every corner and we would

:48:10.:48:15.

declare open season on substances, with devastating impact. I am not an

:48:15.:48:20.

advocate of legalisation, but I'm an advocate of following the example of

:48:20.:48:25.

Portugal, for example. Portugal decriminalised the position of all

:48:25.:48:28.

-- the possession of all drugs across the board, up to a certain

:48:28.:48:34.

point. Beyond that point, somebody is assumed to be a dealer. At every

:48:34.:48:41.

other level, that criminalisation had striking results. Drug use, HIV

:48:41.:48:47.

and violence associated with drugs, these figures all went down. And

:48:47.:48:53.

there was enormous savings in the criminal justice system in Portugal

:48:53.:48:59.

with which they developed a robust treatment centre. You have thought

:48:59.:49:03.

about policies that are difficult to make work, for governments to put in

:49:03.:49:08.

place. Could something like that ever work here? I don't recognise

:49:08.:49:12.

that position. We don't have a problem with exploding crime and

:49:13.:49:16.

violence. Crime rates are coming down, violent crime rates much more

:49:16.:49:21.

rapidly than overall crime rates. Drug-related crime, in terms of the

:49:21.:49:25.

impact on the court, is coming down. There are big negative effects,

:49:25.:49:30.

potentially, whether you quality criminalisation or legalisation, on

:49:30.:49:34.

individual lives and the lives of communities. It can wreck lives. --

:49:34.:49:39.

whether you call it decriminalisation or legalisation.

:49:39.:49:45.

In 2013, this situation is improving in this country, it is not getting

:49:45.:49:50.

worse. Perhaps that is not the case in some parts of the world.

:49:50.:49:54.

reality is that this was always a public health matter, it was a

:49:54.:49:57.

complete departure from common sense to treat it as a criminal matter. If

:49:58.:50:01.

somebody came to you and told you they were addicted, as so many

:50:01.:50:05.

people in this world are, the first thing you would do was not to call

:50:05.:50:09.

the police, you would say to them, you need counselling, you need to

:50:09.:50:14.

get in a programme, somebody to intervene, many tough love kind of

:50:14.:50:18.

things. In America we just did tough on crime, because it sold tickets

:50:18.:50:22.

and was good for politicians. The failure is so monumental that even

:50:22.:50:26.

people from the far right all the way to the far left are finding a

:50:26.:50:30.

common voice. Washington disagrees about everything except for the drug

:50:30.:50:36.

war. Many people are against the drug war. Leading Republicans don't

:50:36.:50:40.

want to see a bloated federal programme that does no good, there

:50:40.:50:43.

is certainly a common cause with people who think it is inhumane to

:50:43.:50:50.

treat the nonviolent as though they were violent. We need to do more on

:50:50.:50:52.

rehabilitation, and I am always struck by the big problem about drug

:50:52.:50:58.

use in prisons. Of course, when they get out, unless they are on the

:50:58.:51:01.

straight and narrow, you are just recycling them back into prison

:51:01.:51:07.

again, and drugs are a big part of that. The amount -- the more that we

:51:07.:51:13.

can do to help people out of addiction and so on... American

:51:13.:51:23.
:51:23.:51:49.

politicians will share that view, Isn't it criminal when you have drug

:51:50.:51:54.

cartels? It is a massive business? Isn't the problem the shipping of

:51:54.:51:58.

the stuff in America stickily of the drugs being there in the first

:51:58.:52:04.

place? Naes a consequence of the criminalisation of the drug. When

:52:04.:52:08.

you criminalise a drug, it creates the market. We did prohibition. It

:52:08.:52:13.

was a disaster. So then about five decades later somebody said, " Why

:52:13.:52:18.

don't we try that again?" We have gone into the prohibition of drugs.

:52:18.:52:23.

Alcohol is a far more destructive substance to public safety than any

:52:23.:52:32.

of the drugs. We say some drugs are legal and other drugs are not.

:52:32.:52:37.

social acceptability is quite a big point. When you are dealing with

:52:37.:52:40.

substances which the overwhelming majority were enjoying, you have big

:52:40.:52:46.

problems if you start decriminalising them. In the last

:52:46.:52:49.

few days, there have been plenty of reports of Conservative voters

:52:49.:52:53.

jumping ship to join UKIP. Conservative local councillors have

:52:53.:52:56.

switched parties and there are murmuring is that some Tory MPs

:52:57.:53:00.

might be tempted to change sides. But political defections are

:53:01.:53:04.

certainly not a new thing. Winston Churchill, elected as a Conservative

:53:04.:53:11.

MP in 1900, defected to the Liberal party in 1904. By 1924 and a switch

:53:11.:53:17.

or two later, he was back in the fold as a conservative. 1981 was

:53:17.:53:21.

notable for the biggest UK political defection, Labour lost 28 MPs to a

:53:21.:53:27.

new party when the gang of four founded the SDP. More recent

:53:27.:53:30.

Parliamentary wardrobe swaps include Shaun Woodward, who left the

:53:30.:53:35.

Conservatives to join Labour in 1999, Paul Marsden went from red to

:53:35.:53:42.

yellow in 2001, and Bob Spink went from conservative to UKIP in 2008.

:53:43.:53:45.

We have been joined by the Conservative MP said Judge Karim,

:53:46.:53:52.

who used to be a Liberal Democrat, and by a councillor who has switched

:53:52.:53:56.

to UKIP from the Conservatives. And Lord Adonis was originally a member

:53:57.:53:59.

of the SDP, then the Liberal Democrats, before defecting to

:54:00.:54:08.

Labour. Just the Conservatives to go! Suzanne, you are the most recent

:54:08.:54:16.

defector, how long have you been in UKIP? A couple of days, it is that

:54:16.:54:22.

new. Have you been warmly received? Allah guess, I said, hello, I think

:54:22.:54:31.

I am the new leader of UKIP in Merton. What made you decide to

:54:31.:54:37.

become a cloud or a fruitcake? felt let down by the Conservative

:54:37.:54:41.

Party. There were various issues locally where I felt the party

:54:41.:54:45.

should have intervened. I also felt that my residents were not being

:54:45.:54:50.

represented properly. When you find yourself on the streets delivering

:54:50.:54:53.

literature that you think is wishy-washy, Labour light, not

:54:53.:54:57.

getting the message across, and you stand on the doorstep and somebody

:54:57.:55:01.

says, I've always voted conservative and never will again because of

:55:01.:55:05.

this, this amp is, you have to find yourself buttoning your lip when you

:55:05.:55:09.

are thinking, I kind of agree. Surely it is time to examine your

:55:09.:55:15.

conscience and think where you want to go. How big a threat is UKIP to

:55:15.:55:25.
:55:25.:55:27.

your old party? 22% in the polls yesterday. In terms of my local area

:55:27.:55:29.

in Merton, I think UKIP has more chance of taking seats than the

:55:29.:55:37.

Labour stronghold. We will keep away from local politics. Sajid, you

:55:37.:55:42.

followed Winston Churchill, are you now in the right party? I started

:55:42.:55:49.

out very early, I was seven years old when I was active in the

:55:49.:55:54.

Conservative Party, I left them at 19 and I came back some years later.

:55:54.:55:58.

When somebody is on a political journey, it is important that our

:55:58.:56:01.

political system is quite accommodating, especially if we want

:56:01.:56:06.

younger people to get involved in politics. We have to allow them to

:56:06.:56:09.

develop their thought processes and move within accordance of that.

:56:09.:56:15.

it difficult psychologically to move between parties? It is a very tough

:56:15.:56:20.

decision. Even at the age of 19 when I decided I was going to leave the

:56:20.:56:24.

Conservative Party at that stage, it was a tremendously difficult

:56:24.:56:29.

decision. Then when I made a decision to rejoin once again, it is

:56:29.:56:36.

a tough call. Most of your political movements over the years, you

:56:36.:56:40.

develop very strong personal links with people within political

:56:40.:56:44.

parties. It is important that as you develop you are able to move in

:56:44.:56:50.

accordance with those developments. Are you hated by the party you left

:56:50.:56:52.

behind and viewed in suspicion by your new home, or those in your new

:56:52.:56:59.

home? I was incredibly lucky because I had many, many friends in the

:56:59.:57:03.

Conservative Party from my younger days who were extremely welcoming of

:57:03.:57:09.

the fact that I was coming back into the fold, so to speak. And I still

:57:09.:57:12.

have friends in the Liberal Democrats and, indeed, in the Labour

:57:12.:57:16.

Party as well. So as a pragmatic politician I think it is important

:57:16.:57:21.

that you have friends in a wide base and call on those when there is

:57:21.:57:26.

political advantage in terms of pushing the agenda you want to push.

:57:26.:57:29.

Andrew Adonis, people are always those bitches when you join a party,

:57:29.:57:32.

you were liked very much by the Blairites and Tony Blair, but there

:57:32.:57:38.

will always those in Labour who viewed you with suspicion? I changed

:57:38.:57:43.

when I was 30, when Tony Blair became the Labour leader. I took the

:57:43.:57:46.

view that if you are modernising social Democrats, a modernising

:57:47.:57:51.

social Democrat had just become the leader of the Labour Party. I did

:57:51.:57:56.

not change a single view I had. Defections are there most potion --

:57:56.:58:01.

potent when people say that the abuse they hold are better

:58:01.:58:04.

represented by the new party than the last. -- when people say that of

:58:05.:58:09.

the views they hold are better represented by the new party than

:58:09.:58:13.

the last. Many people defecting to UKIP say that their views are at

:58:13.:58:20.

upheld by UKIP. Just time to find out the answer to

:58:20.:58:24.

the quiz. Andrew has forgotten! We wanted to test what a rail

:58:24.:58:32.

enthusiasts years. Can you identify these four famous engines? InterCity

:58:32.:58:41.

125, Thomas the Tank Engine, the Rocket, and is that just a Mullard?

:58:41.:58:47.

You are just too good, it is not from Thomas the Tank Engine, but it

:58:47.:58:52.

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