03/06/2013 Daily Politics


03/06/2013

Jo Coburn is joined by David Cameron's former adviser James O'Shaughnessy to discuss all the main political stories of the day, including the latest on lobbying.


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Daily Politics. The wealthiest pensioners should stop getting

:00:43.:00:47.

winter fuel allowance, say Labour. What other benefits should be means

:00:47.:00:53.

tested? Sleaze is back at Westminster as the lobbying scandal

:00:53.:00:59.

hits the Commons and Lords. But is legislation the answer?

:00:59.:01:03.

Harder exams, a tougher curriculum and shorter holidays. But is the

:01:03.:01:06.

real way to raise standards in our schools to teach children how to be

:01:06.:01:10.

happy? There were empty ballot boxes and a

:01:10.:01:15.

record low turnout. Six months on, have police commissioners captured

:01:15.:01:23.

the public's imagination? All of that in the next hour. With

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us for much of the problem today is James O'Shaughnessy, who ran David

:01:28.:01:33.

Cameron's Downing Street policy unit until last year, and is now chief

:01:33.:01:38.

policy adviser with the lobbying and PR firm, Portland Communications.

:01:38.:01:41.

Let's start with the shadow chancellor 's announcement this

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morning that Labour would suck for the means testing of the winter fuel

:01:45.:01:54.

allowance. -- Labour would start means testing. It was originally

:01:54.:01:57.

introduced by Gordon Brown and supported by Labour at the last

:01:57.:02:00.

election. Ed Balls made the announcement in a speech on the

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party 's becoming policy in the City of London this morning.

:02:06.:02:10.

When our care system is under such pressure, can it remain a priority

:02:10.:02:14.

to pay the winter fuel allowance, a vital support for middle and low

:02:14.:02:19.

income pensioners, to the richest 5% of those with incomes high enough to

:02:19.:02:24.

pay the higher rate of tax? We believe the winter fuel allowance

:02:24.:02:30.

provides support for low income pensioners to combat fuel poverty.

:02:30.:02:35.

That is why we introduced, at that time, the allowance. It is why we

:02:36.:02:39.

paid into all pensioners. But in tough a comic times, we have to make

:02:39.:02:45.

difficult choices. ASH microbe tough economic times. We have to strike a

:02:45.:02:55.
:02:55.:02:56.

balance between universal and pay the winter allowance to the

:02:57.:03:02.

wealthiest pensioners. With us is the Shadow Treasury

:03:02.:03:08.

minister, Chris Leslie. You want to cut the winter fuel allowance bill

:03:08.:03:14.

by 5%. How much will it save? It would be about �100 million,

:03:14.:03:20.

probably about 600,000 pensioners affected. The richest 5% of 12

:03:20.:03:26.

million pensioners. Don't forget that was an example of a wider on

:03:26.:03:31.

the station that Ed Balls was having about the need for decisions which

:03:31.:03:35.

might have to be made if we have the bleak inheritance George Osbourne

:03:35.:03:45.
:03:45.:03:47.

leaves behind. -- a wider conversation. If George Osborne

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continues regardless, as he has so far, then there are going to be

:03:50.:03:54.

tough decisions. You are claiming it is going to be

:03:54.:03:57.

bleak if the government continues with its economic policies. The

:03:57.:04:01.

admitted this is a drop in the ocean. It is going to have to be a

:04:01.:04:05.

lot more in terms of labour's becoming policy to sort out the

:04:05.:04:11.

economy in the terms you have just described. ASH microbe labour's

:04:11.:04:21.
:04:21.:04:29.

We will not have to be as harsh as he is planning to be. He will

:04:29.:04:35.

probably continue as he has, with that ideological approach. That is

:04:35.:04:39.

our point today. The spending review in June, rather than trying to

:04:39.:04:43.

predict what he does know will happen in the economy in two years.

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He should be focusing on getting the economy moving, stimulate growth

:04:48.:04:52.

right now. But means testing for wealthier

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pensioners is not a game changer, is it, in terms of reducing the

:04:57.:05:02.

deficit? It would be a significant decision.

:05:02.:05:08.

I don't dismiss how difficult it is. 100 million in terms of the deficit

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is not a game changer. We have to get to a number of

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changes, step by step. This will progress. People want to know the

:05:18.:05:24.

fairer approach we will take. People recognise, actually that pensioners

:05:24.:05:30.

that people on �42,000 per year, really, the winter fuel allowance

:05:30.:05:37.

doesn't need to be paid to them. What about other benefits? Is Labour

:05:37.:05:40.

making a break with universal benefits? Peter Hain has tweeted

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that this is an attack on universal benefits.

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We will look at benefits more generally. What about childcare? Why

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not look at child benefit? Child benefit was able watched decision

:05:57.:06:07.
:06:07.:06:16.

that George Osborne made last year. It is paid to a family. Taxation is

:06:16.:06:25.

not -- is on an individual basis. you have made this break, will you

:06:25.:06:32.

look at other benefits? We want to defend those universal principles.

:06:32.:06:35.

As George Osborne makes more of a mess of the situation, we are going

:06:35.:06:39.

to have to look at where the line is torn between universal and targeted

:06:39.:06:46.

support. Certainly, most of the Tory ministers and politicians we have

:06:46.:06:49.

had on this programme have said that it is something that they will look

:06:49.:06:53.

at at the next election. Reading between the lines, the only reason

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they haven't is because of the commitment David Cameron made at the

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last election. David Cameron did not make that commitment. The situation

:07:06.:07:12.

is difficult. It is interesting to hear him talk about the legacy that

:07:12.:07:19.

a Labour government had. Talking about bleak inheritance, theirs was

:07:19.:07:28.

bleak. I can see the limit for this. It is right that the wealthiest to

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contribute the most when you have to make these difficult decisions. But

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actually, this is a drop in the ocean. The real question for Labour

:07:36.:07:43.

is our they going to stick to, or not, the government spending plans?

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This is the big decision that every opposition have to make.

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Are you? We hope that in two years time... George Osborne, two years

:07:54.:07:59.

ago, predicted he would get the deficit down or stop he was wrong

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then. Now you are asking whether you can predict in two years whether...

:08:06.:08:11.

I don't think it is responsible to say now in 2013, exactly what

:08:12.:08:17.

revenues we will be getting in 2015. We know George Osborne is very keen

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on this political games and the spending review in June is about

:08:22.:08:26.

trying to position himself and put Labour in a difficult position about

:08:26.:08:32.

what it will do in 2015. We will make our commitment clear in that

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manifesto before 2015. Every opposition has to make a

:08:35.:08:40.

difficult decision. Do you stick to the government 's spending plans or

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do you do something different? Labour have had chances in the past.

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The Conservatives have had opportunities in the past and lost

:08:50.:08:55.

elections. The real question is going to be, there is a long-term,

:08:55.:09:01.

three-year commitments to reduce the deficit. Does Labour stick to it? If

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not, they were going into the election saying they will spend more

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with their reputation being that they spend too much. I understand

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this. If we were to say what is happening in 2015... Hang on a

:09:18.:09:28.
:09:28.:09:28.

second. Ed Balls said you cannot move on in any other basis. This

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sounds like Labour is edging towards saying, we will start by looking at

:09:33.:09:38.

the government's spending plans. That will be where we move from.

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If the government carries on as they were, that looks like our starting

:09:45.:09:54.

point. We will be a different opposition to the one that you were

:09:54.:09:57.

in with the Conservatives. There was a promise from the Conservatives

:09:57.:10:02.

that they were going to keep education maintenance allowances.

:10:02.:10:10.

They made promises in opposition that they could not keep. Today, as

:10:10.:10:13.

an opposition, we want to be different. We don't want to make

:10:13.:10:20.

promises we don't think we can keep. On a number of occasions, Ed

:10:20.:10:24.

Miliband has said that to touch in a bus of benefits is difficult for

:10:24.:10:32.

him. It is impossible. -- universal benefits. The real question is,

:10:32.:10:42.
:10:42.:10:44.

today you have made a decision to cut millions from the budget. Child

:10:44.:10:50.

benefit as a saving of �2 billion. It is until you start, and you

:10:50.:10:55.

haven't said yet if you will reverse it, until you start to make

:10:55.:11:01.

decisions of that magnitude, people will not take you seriously.

:11:01.:11:07.

You are picking at individual elements. The big issue is, we can't

:11:07.:11:12.

possibly make promises on spending issues beyond 2015. We don't know

:11:12.:11:22.
:11:22.:11:23.

what sort of mess... It could get worse! We hope that George Osborne

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will take the advice, stimulate the economy now, listen to the IMF.

:11:31.:11:35.

There are three alternatives. The government has its spending plans

:11:35.:11:39.

and they come true. They are slightly better. Or they are worth.

:11:40.:11:44.

In each of those scenarios, Labour still spends more than the

:11:44.:11:46.

Conservatives are pledging. It doesn't matter what the plans are,

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you still spend more. Is there a circumstance in which you would

:11:52.:11:57.

spend less? You have conceded that there are different pathways. George

:11:58.:12:02.

Osborne is going to set one. That is the wrong thing to do.

:12:02.:12:06.

It survived rocking amendments in the Commons. Today the Same Sex

:12:06.:12:10.

Marriage Bill arrives in the Lords to be debated. How will it be

:12:10.:12:14.

received? Adam is on College Green. In the next couple of hours, peers

:12:14.:12:19.

will start to discuss the bill for the first time in the House of

:12:19.:12:23.

Lords. More than 80 of them have put their names down to speak in the

:12:23.:12:28.

debate, meaning they could be up late tonight talking about the

:12:28.:12:32.

issue. Then there is going to be a vote tomorrow on the second reading.

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Lord Dear has tabled what is called a wrecking amendment, which could

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stop the bill in its tracks right there and then. Let's discuss what

:12:41.:12:45.

could happen with the Conservative peer, Michael Bates, who joins me

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here. How are you feeling about the issue? I understand where people are

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coming from on this. They feel pretty angry that same-sex marriage

:12:55.:12:58.

was not in the Coalition agreement are not in the Conservative

:12:59.:13:05.

manifesto, and we have that. I understand why people are angry. But

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I do think there is something quite constitutionally wrong about a piece

:13:10.:13:16.

of legislation that has come to us with a majority of 225 from the

:13:17.:13:21.

elected house, and we are going to deny it a second reading. Amend it

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by all means. But I don't think it is right to deny it a second

:13:25.:13:31.

reading. Do you think Lord Dear is going to succeed tomorrow when it

:13:31.:13:36.

comes to a vote? Those debates will be heard. One of the things the

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House of Lords is renowned for is it is difficult to predict in advance

:13:39.:13:43.

how people will vote. Able to listen to the arguments. The whips play a

:13:43.:13:50.

less important role in this, and it is a free vote. I don't think that

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it will succeed. I think, actually, by testing the opinion at second

:13:54.:13:59.

reading, somehow it is weakening the case of those of us who actually

:13:59.:14:06.

want to see good, reasoned amendments put down at committee and

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report stage that will strengthen the issue in the bill. So as the

:14:11.:14:14.

builders further through its stages, what reassurances are you

:14:14.:14:22.

looking for? Lots of people who have been in politics for hay while that

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matter a while have heard a variance between what ministers say and what

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courts will stay. I think that we want the assurances that have been

:14:33.:14:38.

given to religious organisations to say they are able to opt in to

:14:39.:14:44.

this, but they can't be forced to. I think we will want to see this

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tested. In the House of Lords, we have some great legal minds who can

:14:48.:14:51.

apply that forensic test to this legislation. That is what we should

:14:51.:14:57.

be doing. How late are you going to be up tonight debating it? The whips

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have been generous. I understand there were 93 speakers down. After

:15:02.:15:07.

64 speakers today, we would pause and, to another 30. I think this one

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will run and run. That is it. Two things are

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inevitable when you talk about same-sex marriage. People disagree

:15:19.:15:29.
:15:29.:15:32.

and there are protest is on the green! -- protesters. James

:15:32.:15:35.

O'Shaughnessy, there has been a majority in the Commons which has

:15:35.:15:38.

voted for it, but, has it been a good idea for the Government to

:15:38.:15:43.

proceed with it, in terms of the loss of support, meaning that it has

:15:43.:15:47.

been extremely divisive? It has been divisive, there is no getting away

:15:47.:15:52.

from that. Lots of people in the country at large have concerns about

:15:52.:15:56.

gay marriage. It is a very generational thing. It tends to be

:15:56.:16:00.

older citizens versus younger citizens. If you go back to one of

:16:00.:16:03.

David Cameron 's very earliest speeches as Conservative Party

:16:03.:16:08.

leader, as a candidate, he talked about the importance of marriage,

:16:08.:16:12.

whether it was between a man and a woman, man and man or a woman and

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woman. He has been absolutely constant about that. Although it was

:16:17.:16:23.

not in the manifesto. It was not but there were constitutional issues

:16:23.:16:30.

about that. Is it a good idea? Do we want to elevate the institution of

:16:30.:16:36.

marriage to the point that everybody can take part in it? Absolutely.

:16:36.:16:39.

There is anecdotal and polling evidence which shows many grassroots

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Tories are going over to UKIP as a result, and do not feel that they

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have been listened to. In fact, they are accusing the Government, David

:16:48.:16:53.

Cameron particularly, of being out of touch. There will always be

:16:53.:16:58.

people who disagree with these issues. This argument has to be

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conduct did with respect for one another's positions. People are not

:17:02.:17:06.

motivated by hatred or prejudice, by and large, they are just concerned

:17:06.:17:11.

about the issues. I think actually, if you look at polling among younger

:17:11.:17:14.

people, it is one of the issues which attracts people to the

:17:14.:17:18.

Conservative Party. More than anything, it is something which

:17:18.:17:22.

David Cameron deeply believes in. He believes marriage is a conservative

:17:22.:17:29.

institution which needs to be strengthened. On Friday, the

:17:29.:17:31.

Conservative MP Patrick Mercer resigned the Tory whip after

:17:31.:17:34.

allegations were made that he had broken House of Commons lobbying

:17:34.:17:41.

rules. It followed journalists approaching him, claiming to be

:17:41.:17:44.

lobbyists working on behalf of Fijian business interests. He told

:17:44.:17:48.

the journalists that his services were available at a very reasonable

:17:48.:17:58.
:17:58.:18:05.

to undertake consultancy work outside Parliament, and he denies

:18:05.:18:10.

breaking Parliamentary rules. But he resigned the Conservative whip, and

:18:10.:18:13.

the story reignited around over lobbying in Westminster. Then, on

:18:13.:18:17.

Sunday, three members of the House of Lords were reported by the Sunday

:18:17.:18:22.

Times to have agreed to work on behalf of a fake solar power

:18:22.:18:26.

company, although all three deny breaking Parliamentary rules. Before

:18:26.:18:32.

the last election, David Cameron warned that lobbying was the next

:18:32.:18:38.

big scandal waiting to happen. A statutory register of lobbyists was

:18:38.:18:42.

promised, as was earlier legislation to introduce the power of recall,

:18:42.:18:46.

allowing voters to force a Brian election if their MP has broken the

:18:46.:18:50.

rules. Three years on, neither law has been introduced. Writing in the

:18:50.:18:55.

Daily Telegraph today, Nick Clegg says they will now happen, and in

:18:55.:18:58.

the last hour, he has been explaining why he thinks reform is

:18:58.:19:03.

essential. We are not going to change everything overnight, and no

:19:03.:19:05.

single measure will stop any politician who is absolutely

:19:05.:19:09.

determined to behave badly. That does not mean we cannot take

:19:09.:19:14.

worthwhile steps, including, urgently, edges leading for a

:19:14.:19:18.

statutory register for lobbyists, which is what we will be doing as

:19:18.:19:23.

part of a wider set of reforms to restore public trust to politics.

:19:23.:19:28.

have been joined by the Conservative MP Douglas Carswell, and by the

:19:28.:19:31.

Liberal Democrat MP Tom Brake, who has been involved in negotiations

:19:31.:19:35.

over the proposed new legislation. Would a statutory register of

:19:35.:19:40.

lobbyists make any difference? pretty easy to please lobbyists, but

:19:40.:19:44.

I think the real thing we need to do is to police the lawmakers, which is

:19:44.:19:48.

a more difficult problem. Nobody disagrees with the idea of the

:19:48.:19:54.

register. But would it be effective? It would not have stopped what has

:19:54.:19:59.

allegedly occurred in these cases... We need to police both the

:19:59.:20:03.

lobbyists and numbers of Parliament and peers. In this particular case,

:20:03.:20:06.

it would not have stopped it, but it would stop other things lobbyists

:20:06.:20:11.

might do, including not being entirely open about which companies

:20:11.:20:17.

they are representing. So, really, it would help MPs check out and

:20:17.:20:24.

validate the companies they that is all it would do! That is not a bogus

:20:24.:20:29.

company, thank goodness, I got away with it! 5-1 no, it would ensure

:20:29.:20:32.

transparency, so people could see who they were meeting with, and they

:20:32.:20:41.

would be able to pursue the matter further. You work for a lobbying

:20:41.:20:48.

company - is it a good idea? More transparency is always good. It is

:20:48.:20:51.

important to draw a distinction between this alleged behaviour,

:20:51.:20:57.

which is clearly against the rules of the Commons, and the perfectly

:20:57.:21:02.

legitimate function of charities and companies and anybody else who is

:21:02.:21:07.

regulated by government to have their say. So, why do these things

:21:07.:21:15.

keep happening if the rules are so clear? I do not think they are as

:21:15.:21:19.

clear as they should be. If we have got sanctions in place, particularly

:21:19.:21:23.

for members of Parliament, such as MP recall, people will think very

:21:23.:21:29.

clearly about it. Do you know the rules? Absolutely. It is outrageous

:21:29.:21:33.

to accept any money to ask questions or table legislation. It is the

:21:33.:21:37.

basic rule number one of being a member of the legislature. It is

:21:37.:21:42.

appalling, it is absolutely shocking. But the real thing we need

:21:42.:21:49.

to recognise is that we need to make lawmakers vulnerable to voters. In

:21:49.:21:53.

the House of Lords, obviously, they are completely immune to what the

:21:53.:21:57.

public thinks, but so are most MPs in most seats. In seven out of ten

:21:57.:22:01.

seats, you face very little chance of being thrown out of office, which

:22:01.:22:09.

is why we need a recall. I voted in favour of Lords reform, and I think

:22:09.:22:19.
:22:19.:22:19.

we should have accepted the Labour amendment to put it to a referendum.

:22:19.:22:23.

Why has the Government not done anything? The debited Prime Minister

:22:23.:22:28.

has we stated the fact that we will deliver that within this Parliament.

:22:28.:22:31.

-- the Deputy Prime Minister. Lobbying is compact, there are

:22:31.:22:35.

different ways you can tackle it. There are different people who can

:22:35.:22:38.

be caught within the net of lobbying, so the Government wants to

:22:38.:22:42.

do it correctly. The legislative programme is under pressure in many

:22:42.:22:47.

other areas as well. Has there been a dragging feet on this adage

:22:47.:22:50.

internally, there have been tough negotiations about exactly what it

:22:50.:22:54.

would look like, to make sure that it tackles the problem, but without

:22:54.:22:58.

putting an undue burden on business. It sounds like the Conservatives

:22:58.:23:05.

might not have been so keen as the other parties? Recall means that you

:23:05.:23:08.

allow local people to vote to recall their representative. What the

:23:08.:23:12.

Government came up with was a very different system, which would mean

:23:12.:23:15.

that politicians could sit in judgment on other politicians and

:23:15.:23:20.

send them away from Parliament. What we need is a recall mechanism with a

:23:20.:23:23.

real recall vote. If you do that, I think there will be agreement in the

:23:23.:23:29.

House of Commons. Well, actually, we are providing a guarantee that if a

:23:29.:23:33.

member of Parliament has been sentenced, there will be a recall

:23:33.:23:37.

guarantee. And of course, there will be a committee which looks at other

:23:37.:23:43.

types of misdemeanour. So you are looking at politicians being judged

:23:43.:23:51.

by other politicians, rather than by constituents? You cannot possibly

:23:51.:23:55.

strengthen democracy by allowing a group of politicians to expel

:23:55.:23:59.

another politician, without asking the majority of constituents # How

:23:59.:24:07.

is that recall? It is a sham. - get I think this so-called committee of

:24:07.:24:10.

grandees as demonstrated that it can, when necessary, enforced the

:24:10.:24:20.
:24:20.:24:24.

rules. It is an outrageous system, it is an old boys system, it is not

:24:24.:24:27.

democratic. You would not trust your Parliamentary colleagues to make a

:24:27.:24:33.

proper decision? If I have a choice of being judged by my electorate or

:24:33.:24:39.

by the Westminster system, I would choose the voters every time.

:24:39.:24:45.

about people who might want to take out grievances on their MP? We have

:24:45.:24:49.

had an example of this. There was, to all intents and purposes, aged

:24:49.:24:55.

visionary sanctioned recall in 1997, when the Tories cried foul and took

:24:55.:25:00.

it to the courts and got a rerun. Because it was seen as vexatious,

:25:00.:25:04.

people came out in their tens of thousands, and the Liberal Democrats

:25:04.:25:08.

were returned by a majority of more than 20,000. Vexatious attempts to

:25:08.:25:15.

not succeed. You cannot generalise on one example. On an issue like

:25:15.:25:18.

abortion, for instance, I suspect there would be the risk of a

:25:18.:25:21.

significant body of people organising, with a view to try to

:25:21.:25:27.

depose a member of Parliament. a dangerous or a good idea to trust

:25:27.:25:34.

constituents? Goodness me, we live in a democracy. Do you not fear any

:25:34.:25:38.

attempt by constituents to perhaps randomly... ? Think about what might

:25:38.:25:42.

happen, somebody gets up vexatious claim, a group of people who think

:25:42.:25:47.

it is madness get together and outvote the others. You have

:25:47.:25:49.

quadrupled participation in the constituency. I think it would be

:25:49.:25:56.

dynamic. As I said, it is something we are considering, we are looking

:25:56.:25:59.

at different options, we may not go for the option which Douglas

:25:59.:26:08.

prefers. How is that strengthening democracy, Tom, come on? ! We have

:26:08.:26:11.

seen that the so-called committee of grandees can deliver the goods when

:26:11.:26:18.

necessary. Some colleagues are worried that this might turn into a

:26:18.:26:20.

kangaroo court, where it is not actually about a misdemeanour, it is

:26:20.:26:28.

about... How can you describe the constituents as a kangaroo court?

:26:28.:26:36.

This is extraordinary! Do you regard your constituents as a kangaroo

:26:36.:26:40.

court? We have got to think about the threshold to even have an

:26:40.:26:47.

election, so it is just like running a by-election. If somebody was seen

:26:47.:26:50.

to be messing around, then clearly, people are going to turn out, if

:26:50.:26:54.

they think it is a ridiculous waste of time, to return a local MP. It is

:26:54.:26:59.

normal human behaviour. I do not think MPs have very much to worry

:26:59.:27:04.

about on this, even though I am not one myself. You said you would be

:27:04.:27:08.

happy for a register of interests - do you think lobbying has given

:27:08.:27:13.

politics a bad name? No, there has always been lobbying. In

:27:13.:27:15.

Westminster, we have got things like the Institute of mechanical

:27:15.:27:20.

engineers, setting up things so that they can lobby Parliament in order

:27:20.:27:24.

to have the railways built, in the old days, four example. It has

:27:24.:27:28.

always happened. Also, I think it is perfectly reasonable if you are

:27:28.:27:31.

affected by government in some way to have a conversation with them in

:27:31.:27:36.

order to protect your interest. the grey area, and it is clear from

:27:36.:27:40.

what you said, you do not ask gems on behalf of them for money. But

:27:40.:27:46.

there could be a potential conflict if you are involved, or are on the

:27:46.:27:49.

board, or are being paid as a consultant, influencing Parliament

:27:49.:27:54.

in a different way - would it be simpler, from the point of view of

:27:54.:27:59.

the public, if MPs did not get paid for any other work? I disagree. I

:27:59.:28:05.

want to sit lawmakers, I want MPs to have another role in life, to be

:28:05.:28:08.

Citizen lawmakers rather than professional politicians. I think

:28:08.:28:18.

that is down to individual members of Parliament. I might have a

:28:18.:28:23.

different viewpoint, it is an important part of me representing my

:28:23.:28:29.

constituency. But you are happy for other MPs to get paid work in areas

:28:29.:28:35.

which are outside their remit? is a question for their

:28:35.:28:37.

constituents. If they are not happy with the level of involvement they

:28:37.:28:42.

have got, then they have an opportunity, every five years, there

:28:42.:28:47.

is MP recall, it is called a general election. Let me guess what makes

:28:47.:28:51.

you happy. I bet it is the return of The Daily Politics to your screens

:28:51.:28:54.

after a week away. There is a growing body of scientific evidence

:28:55.:28:59.

about what makes us feel good and how it affects our health. Our guest

:28:59.:29:03.

of the day, James O'Shaughnessy, is interested in how that can be

:29:03.:29:07.

applied in education. Find out more, we sent out out last week as the

:29:07.:29:17.
:29:17.:29:18.

country was barking basking in the glow of the half term holidays. This

:29:18.:29:27.

is the Royal Mechanical Energy Level Engineers in Berkshire. Do you think

:29:27.:29:31.

your teachers worry if you are happy? No, not really.What do they

:29:31.:29:36.

care about? Coughing in the staff room. They try to make you happy in

:29:36.:29:44.

the staff room -- at school, so that you enjoyed it. Personality is what

:29:44.:29:51.

it is about, people should be fun people. That is what it is all about

:29:51.:29:54.

at Wellington College, a private school which takes the development

:29:54.:29:58.

of character and well-being so seriously, they even have classes

:29:59.:30:02.

dedicated to it. They have embraced a fairly new movement called

:30:02.:30:06.

positive psychology, where, instead of looking at what makes people

:30:06.:30:09.

miserable and trying to prevent it, you look at what makes people happy

:30:09.:30:19.
:30:19.:30:25.

I think it is desperately sad for those children. It is a kind of

:30:25.:30:28.

abuse not to let young people actually have a chance to think

:30:28.:30:35.

about and develop their own autonomy and sense of looking after their

:30:35.:30:40.

minds, the emotions, their bodies. You really can teach this stuff. You

:30:40.:30:46.

can teach character as well. But under this government, Ofsted

:30:46.:30:53.

has stopped measuring pupils' well-being. The education secretary

:30:53.:30:59.

wants teachers to focus on facts. The new national curriculum is

:30:59.:31:05.

heavily weighted on history and great books.

:31:05.:31:08.

He does understand it. I think he is worried that if he talks too much

:31:08.:31:14.

about it, schools will think oh, this is our pretext for letting go

:31:14.:31:21.

of academic rigour and focusing on standards, and we can do this softer

:31:21.:31:25.

stuff instead. Actually, it is not one or the other. It is both.

:31:25.:31:31.

It was not just digital cameras that flummoxed Tony Blair. His government

:31:31.:31:34.

started a big well-being programme called social and emotional aspects

:31:34.:31:40.

of learning. Reviews found that it made hardly any difference. But

:31:40.:31:45.

research from America showed that similar programmes their lead to an

:31:45.:31:49.

improvement in exam results of 11 percentage points.

:31:49.:31:52.

Back at the museum in Berkshire, it looks like everybody is having a

:31:52.:31:58.

good time. At in 2007, Unicef found that Britain's kids are the most

:31:58.:32:03.

miserable indie divides world. If it's the job of schools to make them

:32:03.:32:13.
:32:13.:32:14.

happier? -- in the developed world. James O'Shaughnessy is part of the

:32:14.:32:19.

Wellington School's ethos. It is easy for public and private schools

:32:19.:32:23.

to develop well-being in the curriculum. They have got money to

:32:23.:32:28.

do it. How do you do it in state schools? That is the challenge that

:32:28.:32:32.

Wellington is taking on. They have got a well-being curriculum there.

:32:32.:32:40.

They are now trying to introduce it into the state system. They are

:32:40.:32:43.

sponsoring one secondary school already. It has taken money to

:32:43.:32:47.

develop it, but I don't think it takes money to develop it in

:32:47.:32:53.

schools. Many schools are introducing it into their own

:32:53.:32:58.

classroom practice. What is resource intensive is coming up with

:32:58.:33:02.

programmes in the first instance. You have said that good public

:33:02.:33:10.

schools develop optimism, altruism, things that are not advertised in

:33:10.:33:14.

the glossy brochures. Do you think that is more important, in the end,

:33:14.:33:18.

than just the straightforward results that people may or may not

:33:18.:33:23.

get? Is it the confidence that you come out of some of these schools

:33:23.:33:29.

with? Is it what you want to develop in state schools? I don't think in

:33:29.:33:35.

terms of putting public school ethos in state schools. My children go to

:33:35.:33:40.

state schools. That is what I am worried about changing. That is what

:33:40.:33:44.

matters. The question is, do we have happy children or successful

:33:44.:33:49.

children, or do we have both? For the past 50 years, there has been an

:33:49.:33:53.

argument that you can have one or the other but not both. That seems,

:33:53.:34:00.

to me, plainly mad. Also, it carriages -- it suggests that if you

:34:00.:34:04.

focus on academic rigour but also find ways to build children's

:34:04.:34:08.

character strengths, this has a knock-on benefits both for the

:34:08.:34:11.

academic work and in a bunch of other things. They are happier, more

:34:11.:34:17.

productive. They want to play a bigger role in their communities.

:34:17.:34:25.

Has it been bad to have all of these exams in primary schools? Has the

:34:25.:34:31.

focus been too much on league tables? Parents want to see those

:34:32.:34:39.

schools. Is there room for what you are talking about and getting both?

:34:39.:34:43.

There is. Would we throw out the economic stuff and say, no, it has

:34:43.:34:48.

been too much? It has not been too much. Parents want to know that

:34:48.:34:53.

children are getting the fundamentals... Excuse me! Have some

:34:53.:35:02.

water. They also want their children to develop, for their character to

:35:02.:35:07.

let them become good and productive people. We don't hear much about

:35:07.:35:13.

happiness from Michael Gove stock he talks about longer school days,

:35:13.:35:17.

shorter holidays. He does not talk about a happy school life. Is he

:35:17.:35:23.

wrong? This is difficult. If you rewind 40 years, the people who

:35:23.:35:26.

advocated happy schools were the same people who oversaw an education

:35:26.:35:30.

system that has led to millions of adults being illiterate. The

:35:30.:35:38.

standard agenda is in some respects in reaction against that. Other

:35:38.:35:42.

countries are racing ahead of us. We need to focus on that. My argument

:35:42.:35:46.

is you don't have to choose. You can have both because they are

:35:46.:35:51.

commensurate. If you have happy children with grit and resilient --

:35:51.:35:56.

resilience, they are going to do better. A lot of it is what happens

:35:56.:36:01.

at home. Do you think any work done at school can be undermined if those

:36:01.:36:06.

virtues are not being taught at home? How a child does in education

:36:06.:36:11.

is driven more by their parents than their teachers. You need to have a

:36:11.:36:14.

reinforcement of all of those values, absolutely. But schools can

:36:14.:36:17.

make a difference. They can help children catch up if they are

:36:17.:36:21.

falling behind. Good luck in pursuing your happiness in schools.

:36:22.:36:25.

Thank you very much for being our guest.

:36:25.:36:29.

Parliament has returned today after the Whitsun recess. So what is in

:36:29.:36:34.

the diary for our MPs and Lords? As we have been hearing, later today

:36:34.:36:38.

the House of Lords will discuss the gay marriage bill. It is likely to

:36:38.:36:41.

have a bruising passage, as one member, Lord Dear, has tabled a

:36:41.:36:51.
:36:51.:36:58.

wrecking amendment seeking to Ed Miliband will set out Labour's plan

:36:58.:37:02.

for spending. Later this week at the Star Chamber will come back.

:37:02.:37:06.

Ministers will be brought before it to agree to spending cuts worth

:37:06.:37:10.

�11.5 billion in the next spending review. Joining us now is keep a

:37:10.:37:18.

career, -- Pippa Crerar and Andrew Grice. Andrew Grice, another scandal

:37:18.:37:26.

in talking about MPs and Lords allegedly caught up in yet another

:37:26.:37:30.

lobbying scandal. Will there be action this time? There will have to

:37:30.:37:37.

be. Ministers are telling us they intended to introduce a register of

:37:37.:37:41.

lobbyists in this session of parliament that has just begun. The

:37:41.:37:47.

fact is, they were not committed to that. In the Queen's Speech, this

:37:47.:37:50.

was just a few weeks ago, and they cannot put Redgate any longer. We

:37:50.:37:56.

would not be talking about it today if there were not the revelations in

:37:56.:37:59.

the newspapers in recent days. This time, ministers will have to get

:37:59.:38:07.

their act together. The reason allegations... Do you think that the

:38:07.:38:11.

new generation of MPs will be less susceptible to these allegations of

:38:11.:38:17.

Bibury? You are right that it does go back to cash for questions and

:38:17.:38:23.

John Major 's time. He found out the dangers of it to a government of

:38:23.:38:27.

having backbench MPs misbehaving. It is true also, though, that the

:38:27.:38:32.

current crop of MPs are perhaps more professional in their mindset and

:38:32.:38:36.

approach to how they do their politics. It is true that you could

:38:36.:38:40.

end up with a group of MPs who are perhaps less susceptible. But I

:38:40.:38:46.

think he is right. Action has to be taken now. The public clamour, in

:38:46.:38:50.

particular after the expenses scandal, will be so profound that

:38:50.:38:54.

the government just cannot brush it aside. You can't underestimate how

:38:54.:39:01.

important it is in terms of the public's perception of politicians.

:39:01.:39:06.

What brings politics into such attribute is this kind of thing.

:39:06.:39:09.

Another line of action for politicos, particularly George

:39:09.:39:15.

Osborne, is the Star Chamber, which everybody likes to talk about. Do

:39:15.:39:18.

you think the threat of being summoned to be interrogated by

:39:18.:39:28.
:39:28.:39:29.

Cabinet colleagues will work? could put more pressure on ministers

:39:29.:39:34.

who are resisting calls by the Treasury for more cuts. At the end

:39:34.:39:38.

of the day, the most crucial body will actually be the quad, the body

:39:38.:39:42.

at the top of the Coalition. They would Cameron, Nick Clegg and their

:39:42.:39:48.

Treasury counterparts, George Osborne and Danny Alexander. --

:39:48.:39:55.

David Cameron. It would be lovely to be a fly on

:39:55.:39:58.

the wall when the discussions are taking place. But, Pippa Crerar,

:39:59.:40:04.

there could be secretaries of state who promised to do something

:40:04.:40:12.

untenable like cutting the whole police budget. How desperate does it

:40:12.:40:19.

get? As he alluded, in 2010, the prospect of the Star Chamber was

:40:19.:40:22.

brought up never happen. Lots of meetings happen. The Cabinet

:40:22.:40:28.

ministers were brought into the Star Chamber. Whether it happens again,

:40:28.:40:33.

it is hard to say. Cabinet ministers will have plenty of tactics up their

:40:33.:40:42.

sleeve. Things like Iain Duncan Smith promising a �3 billion cut in

:40:42.:40:47.

his department so money could go to the Armed Forces - that is untenable

:40:47.:40:52.

and the Lib Dems would oppose it. That is never going to happen.

:40:52.:40:55.

Another tactic is Peter Lilley suggesting equalised in the age of

:40:55.:41:00.

retirement, pushing the cuts into the future. They have all got many

:41:00.:41:07.

tactics up their sleeve. Andrew, Labour is breaking the

:41:07.:41:09.

promise of universal benefit for pensioners. But it is important

:41:09.:41:17.

symbolically. Until now, Ed Miliband has said that his label for the

:41:17.:41:24.

party, one nation Labour, embraces benefits. Ed Balls is called that

:41:24.:41:28.

into question. Some Labour MPs will not like it. But the leadership

:41:28.:41:33.

hopes isn't a strong signal that Labour, in office, would impose IMF

:41:33.:41:41.

-- discipline on public spending. They know they need to rebuild

:41:41.:41:46.

credibility to have a chance of winning in 2015.

:41:46.:41:49.

It was billed as the biggest shake-up in policing in England and

:41:49.:41:55.

Wales since the invention of the modern police force in the 1820s.

:41:55.:41:58.

Six months on from the election, what kind of impact our police and

:41:58.:42:03.

current commissioners having? In a moment we will have three

:42:03.:42:07.

commissioners in the studio. First, this report, which contains some

:42:07.:42:12.

flashing lights. As a collection is go, they scored

:42:12.:42:17.

some notable firsts. An empty ballot box in one area of England. And I'm

:42:17.:42:22.

used polling station in Wales. But if the turnout for police and crime

:42:22.:42:25.

commissioners in November of last year was the lowest ever in peace

:42:25.:42:30.

time, the fact they are elected and therefore accountable is, say their

:42:30.:42:35.

supporters, a long needed reform. To their critics, they are a

:42:35.:42:41.

politicisation and over expensive unwonted influence on police.

:42:41.:42:45.

The 15.1% turnout in the elections proved a massive public disinterest

:42:45.:42:51.

in these elections and these posts altogether. There has only been

:42:51.:42:54.

negative conclusions from the way the police and crime commissioners

:42:54.:42:58.

have behaved. We have seen no significant change in the way

:42:58.:43:03.

policing has taken place. I think that proves the lack of value of the

:43:03.:43:08.

proposals. Lots of people would like to argue that the commissioners have

:43:08.:43:13.

been a failure. I think there is evidence to show that some of them

:43:13.:43:18.

on the right track. The creative work done by some PCC is on value

:43:18.:43:22.

for money and service delivery are not headline news. Inevitably,

:43:22.:43:32.
:43:32.:43:33.

negative stories are. The PCC for Cumbria had to repay hundreds of

:43:33.:43:38.

pounds for a show that he used. And Barnes may regret her Paris and

:43:38.:43:47.

adventure. -- and macro Barnes. She was caught out over racist and

:43:47.:43:57.
:43:57.:43:59.

Police and crime commissioners have given the impression that they have

:43:59.:44:04.

gone on a spending spree. What I say to you is what I have

:44:04.:44:11.

said previously, both here and on other occasions, that the whole

:44:11.:44:14.

point is the police and crime commissions will be accountable to

:44:14.:44:18.

their electorate. Police and crime commissioners have

:44:18.:44:23.

a clear mandate than the police authorities they were placed. I

:44:23.:44:26.

think that we always help them. I also think they have got a clearer

:44:26.:44:32.

job, which come in these times, is to improve policing in a time of

:44:32.:44:38.

tight money. The best PCCs are leading the Way better than any

:44:38.:44:41.

other public service, actually, in how to do that.

:44:41.:44:45.

Six months may not be long enough to judge, but critics point to the US

:44:45.:44:50.

for comparison. These proposals were a cheap import

:44:50.:44:56.

from the American model of politically elected sheriffs. We

:44:56.:45:03.

have seen how this model has created a real set of social problems,

:45:03.:45:06.

including undermining trust and confidence in the police and

:45:06.:45:10.

creating concerns around race relations.

:45:10.:45:13.

The 41 PCCs inning lead and well still have 4.5 years to parade how

:45:14.:45:23.
:45:24.:45:28.

they will avoid that. I am joined now by three police and grand

:45:28.:45:35.

commissioners. -- crime commissioners. Welcome to all of

:45:35.:45:40.

you. I have to start with the mandate - you all one your seats on

:45:40.:45:47.

a mandate of between 9% and 10% of the elect Ed, which is low by

:45:47.:45:49.

anyone's judgment, but if there were elections tomorrow, would you do

:45:49.:45:57.

better? Actually it was 15.8% of the electorate in Sussex. But yes, we

:45:57.:46:04.

would. It was dark, there were no elections taking place, so it is not

:46:04.:46:07.

surprising. How much I do you think it would be if it was held

:46:07.:46:14.

tomorrow? For the sake of statistics, it was 16.6% in my case,

:46:14.:46:19.

and I got more than 65% of those. Voters did not get any information

:46:19.:46:23.

about who was standing, apart from the candidates themselves. Uncle how

:46:23.:46:33.
:46:33.:46:33.

much higher do you think it would be? I think in most areas, the next

:46:33.:46:38.

PCC elections will take race alongside the local elections, which

:46:38.:46:44.

is likely to see turnout boosted quite considerably. I think she has

:46:44.:46:46.

been fairly kind about the circumstances surrounding the

:46:46.:46:50.

election in November. Actually, it was an absolute shambles. You could

:46:50.:46:55.

not have contrived any worse circumstances to hold an election

:46:55.:46:58.

in. You have all given reasons for that, but what about your record in

:46:59.:47:05.

the last six months? Absolutely. If you look at what we have done in

:47:05.:47:09.

Sussex, we have delivered a plan which sets out priorities in

:47:09.:47:13.

policing which the people in Sussex really want, focusing on anti-social

:47:13.:47:18.

behaviour, road safety, domestic abuse and violence. That is a

:47:18.:47:21.

fantastic achievement. The level of correspondence to my office has

:47:21.:47:26.

increased by 3500%. People know they have got someone they can go to,

:47:26.:47:29.

which is an achievement. Are you getting the same levels of

:47:29.:47:39.
:47:39.:47:42.

correspondence? 4000 pieces of correspondence, but apart from that,

:47:42.:47:48.

it is tangible things. In Kent, 100 extra officers on the street, mobile

:47:48.:47:52.

police stations, visible policing, working with specials, it is all

:47:52.:47:57.

tangible things. I do not talk pie in the sky, it is actually what is

:47:57.:48:01.

good for the people of Kent, what they want and what I can deliver.

:48:01.:48:06.

That has been the really good thing about PCC is. I did have my

:48:06.:48:13.

criticism of it, which I stand by... And yet you are a police and

:48:13.:48:17.

crime commission, and you said they were a waste of money? Well, what do

:48:17.:48:27.
:48:27.:48:33.

you do. Thankfully, the people of Kent agreed with me. We had an

:48:33.:48:38.

election, I stood on a platform, I said that I would stop the

:48:38.:48:42.

privatisation of the police to G for S which was on the table when I

:48:42.:48:47.

walked into my office, I said that I would reject visible policing, and I

:48:47.:48:53.

have saved a third of the police community support officers who were

:48:53.:48:58.

due to be cut. In the budget process, I put the precept up, and

:48:58.:49:01.

what I found was that people were prepared to do that because they saw

:49:01.:49:08.

that it was going to make a difference. Why did you not both do

:49:08.:49:13.

what I did, and stand as an independent, and put your party

:49:13.:49:16.

politics to one side? It should not be there. I have a real issue with

:49:16.:49:21.

this. I think it is nothing to do with politicising the police. People

:49:21.:49:25.

when they stand as an independent, they are not independent of

:49:25.:49:29.

politics, they are just independent of the parties. They are still

:49:29.:49:34.

political. This is a political decision. We all make big decisions

:49:34.:49:39.

around tax and spending. These are political issues. We are all

:49:39.:49:45.

democratically elected, which makes us politicians. Have you not also

:49:45.:49:51.

decided to put up the precept? Precisely, but I was able to do that

:49:51.:49:55.

because the old police authority actually had so many Conservative

:49:55.:49:58.

councillors on it who would not put the precept up, so I was able to do

:49:58.:50:02.

that. And we still had the police authority, I would not have been

:50:02.:50:05.

able to do that, so we would not have been able to have an extra 100

:50:05.:50:12.

people. Is it right for council tax to go up Judge allege well, in

:50:13.:50:21.

Sussex, we kept the precept the same as last year. Today, we opened the

:50:21.:50:24.

recruitment for 18 new constables in Sussex, the first time we have done

:50:24.:50:31.

that for many years, without having to raise the council tax. Why could

:50:31.:50:35.

you not do that in your area, be able to recruit more officers

:50:36.:50:38.

without raising council tax? circumstances in each force are

:50:38.:50:44.

different. Bedfordshire is one of the most hard-pressed forces. We do

:50:44.:50:47.

not even get from the government what the funding formula says we

:50:47.:50:52.

should get. We are �24 million a year less due to the operation of

:50:52.:50:56.

the damping mechanism. So, circumstances vary between different

:50:56.:51:01.

forces. We have also got a major counter terrorist threat, a major

:51:01.:51:04.

organised crime threat, as well as alarmingly high levels of serious

:51:04.:51:10.

and inquisitive crime. So, the situation varies between the forces.

:51:10.:51:13.

That is why what is appropriate for Bedfordshire is not the same as what

:51:13.:51:18.

is appropriate for Sussex, but we are each elected to do the best job

:51:18.:51:25.

we can in our area. You mentioned that you got voted in to protect any

:51:25.:51:29.

further privatisation or outsourcing - are you going to do more

:51:29.:51:34.

outsourcing in your area? Just so that people are aware, in Sussex, we

:51:35.:51:37.

already outsource our custody facilities, and have done for many

:51:37.:51:41.

years. I am looking at doing further collaboration with my colleague in

:51:41.:51:47.

Surrey, and the question I would ask is, why do we have 41 policing

:51:47.:51:52.

forces across the country, who use different payroll systems, and

:51:52.:51:54.

different human resources departments? This sort of thing

:51:54.:51:58.

could be amalgamated and outsourced. But you cannot really

:51:58.:52:03.

collaborate, if you have got some people against outsourcing, and

:52:03.:52:11.

others in favourite, you cannot do it? We work very closely with Essex.

:52:12.:52:14.

There is going to be no privatisation of police services in

:52:14.:52:21.

Kent. We do not need to do it. It is what is best for Kent. We are

:52:21.:52:26.

already driving out our savings. I think if you drive out savings, they

:52:26.:52:30.

should go back into the service from whence they came. I do not disagree

:52:30.:52:37.

with that at all. So why is it necessary to outsourcing your area?

:52:37.:52:44.

Because you are looking at ways of doing things for less money. If you

:52:44.:52:47.

privatise great bits of the police service, there will be three or four

:52:47.:52:50.

large providers doing it, and you will still have to buy back your

:52:50.:52:55.

services. You are not getting them for free. But what about the idea of

:52:55.:53:03.

fooling? We have been doing that in Kent since 2007. We were

:53:03.:53:07.

trailblazers. I am pleased to see that Surrey and Sussex are doing it

:53:07.:53:14.

now. It is interesting, because both of us, under the Government 's

:53:14.:53:18.

current proposals for rehabilitation of offenders, we are going to have

:53:18.:53:22.

to work together on probation at some stage, so we will be looking at

:53:22.:53:27.

outsourcing them, anyway. To move on to something slightly different, the

:53:27.:53:30.

Woolwich attack, which was a terrible tragedy, but it has had an

:53:30.:53:35.

impact on policing, I should think, across the country - what about the

:53:35.:53:39.

impact in your area? It has a great impact in Bedfordshire, because

:53:39.:53:46.

unfortunately, we have this very small minority, called the EDL, they

:53:46.:53:49.

think Luton is their spiritual home because of the origins of that

:53:49.:53:54.

organisation, and we are also the home to a large Muslim population. I

:53:54.:53:58.

think the important thing to say is that those extremists who

:53:58.:54:02.

perpetrated that horrendous attack, they are also a very small minority,

:54:02.:54:07.

and they do not represent the religion of Islam or the vast

:54:07.:54:12.

majority of Muslims, who share our horror at what happened. So what

:54:12.:54:17.

impact has it had on policing? are all trying to pull together to

:54:17.:54:20.

make that point, that this is all about minorities, very small

:54:21.:54:30.

minorities, trying to do harm. On Friday, we have what I think was a

:54:30.:54:34.

very powerful demonstration of people from all backgrounds in our

:54:34.:54:39.

town coming together and laying flowers at the Cenotaph outside the

:54:39.:54:44.

town hall and saying, actually, we are the people of Luton, and not

:54:44.:54:48.

these minorities who are trying to divide our community. Do you think

:54:48.:54:52.

police commissioners have a role in managing these sensitive

:54:52.:54:58.

situations? I think they do, we have to make sure that the force handles

:54:58.:55:03.

them sensitively and properly. As far as Kent was concerned, it is

:55:03.:55:06.

quiet in Kent. There was a big police presence on the streets,

:55:06.:55:10.

working with community leaders, and I am pleased with how the police in

:55:10.:55:15.

Kent dealt with it. Spending cuts cash what impact have government

:55:15.:55:20.

spending cuts had on policing in Sussex? Under the previous company

:55:20.:55:24.

and sit spending review, Sussex police had to save 20% in the

:55:24.:55:31.

budget, equating to �52 million. We are on target to meet that. It has

:55:31.:55:34.

not had an effect on frontline policing, to the extent that we are

:55:34.:55:40.

able to freeze the council tax and do some recruitment as well. That

:55:40.:55:45.

sounds miraculous - what about your area? It has had an impact in Kent.

:55:45.:55:47.

There has been a slight drawback of visible community policing, the

:55:47.:55:53.

policing that evil one. I do not want a police service which sits

:55:53.:55:57.

outside the community, just responding to needs. I want them

:55:57.:56:01.

working with communities, going into schools and colleges. I am fighting

:56:02.:56:05.

more cuts to police funding, because that is what will disappear, which

:56:05.:56:11.

is not fair. How efficient is your office, and the money that is spent

:56:11.:56:19.

on your salary and the salaries of your staff? Very efficient. We have

:56:19.:56:22.

13.5 full-time employees, we came in under budget last year, we have got

:56:23.:56:26.

exactly the same budget this year. But it is a big job, it is more than

:56:27.:56:30.

the old police authority job. We have got all of the statutory

:56:30.:56:33.

responsibilities of the old authority, plus all the

:56:33.:56:36.

commissioning, plus the work with criminal justice, was the work with

:56:36.:56:41.

partners, it is not a small job. It is a really big job, and the sooner

:56:41.:56:44.

people realise that, the better. What about the number of people in

:56:45.:56:51.

your office? I have kept my staff, lament at what I inherited from the

:56:51.:56:55.

police authority. Nonetheless, my office budget has seen a real terms

:56:55.:57:05.
:57:05.:57:05.

reduction this year. I think what is important in the context of

:57:05.:57:08.

Bedfordshire is the impact that the forthcoming copy and sit spending

:57:08.:57:16.

review could have. I really worry about that. In Bedfordshire, because

:57:16.:57:19.

of the previous Comprehensive Spending Review, we have had to move

:57:19.:57:23.

away from the traditional model of neighbourhood policing and implement

:57:23.:57:29.

a far more reactive model, and although that has continued to drive

:57:29.:57:34.

down crying quite successfully, it has nonetheless meant that the force

:57:34.:57:39.

is less visible to the public, which is a real worry when it comes to

:57:39.:57:42.

protecting and building public confidence in the force. You have

:57:42.:57:47.

taken on 12 staff, is that right? No, I inherited staff, we have 12

:57:47.:57:53.

now. For the people in Sussex, they should know that in Sussex, we have

:57:53.:57:57.

the 14th largest force in the country, at my office has the

:57:57.:58:03.

seventh cheapest budget, so in real terms, we have saved �186,000 since

:58:03.:58:07.

coming into office. But it is not just about what my office saves, it

:58:07.:58:11.

is about making sure that Sussex police are efficient and effect,

:58:11.:58:15.

that we can drive out more savings and put them into frontline

:58:15.:58:18.

policing. I suppose people are worried about the communications

:58:18.:58:21.

which come with the new office, and all of the trappings, which cost

:58:21.:58:27.

money... Rightly so, and we should be transparent and accountable.

:58:27.:58:33.

Expenses on websites... Absolutely, everything is on the website.

:58:33.:58:36.

Personally I do not claim any allowances for any travel I do

:58:36.:58:40.

across Sussex, neither does my deputy, but that is up to colleagues

:58:40.:58:50.
:58:50.:58:51.

Jo Coburn is joined by David Cameron's former adviser James O'Shaughnessy to discuss all the main political stories of the day, including the latest on lobbying. They will also ask what impact the police and crime commissioners are making six months on from the elections.


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