05/06/2013 Daily Politics


05/06/2013

Andrew Neil and Jo Coburn with live coverage of Prime Minister's Questions and the latest political news and debate, with Grant Shapps and Margaret Curran.


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story. It is not worth the paper it is written on, according to him!

:11:06.:11:10.

This is a good idea but you have to balance it with the principle that

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people should be elected to Parliament and go out to do things,

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sometimes courageous things that in the short term may not be

:11:19.:11:22.

immediately popular. After five years, people can have

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their say. That is an opportunity to kick

:11:29.:11:38.

people out. That is why we need a bit of recall. You can be sent to

:11:38.:11:42.

prison for less than a year and still there would be no mechanism,

:11:42.:11:52.
:11:52.:11:59.

this plug the gap. How much cash how many of these aren't going to

:11:59.:12:09.
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Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1171 seconds

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growth going means he will now borrow �96 billion instead, yes or

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no? Three years ago we said we would cut the deficit and we have cut the

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deficit by a third. That is what is happening. On the issue of what

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people said a few years ago, the very first time the leader of the

:31:57.:32:01.

opposition came to that despatch box he attacked me for taking child

:32:01.:32:10.

benefit away from higher earners. And yet today we learn it is now

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Labour's official policy to take child benefit away. Total and utter

:32:16.:32:26.
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confusion. Perhaps he can explain Government has revived plans for a

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right of recall. Instead of a proposal that would mean politicians

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sitting in judgment of politicians, can my honourable friend make it

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clear that a recall mechanism will involve a ballot. A chance for

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constituents to make the final decision before an MP is removed?

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know he has campaigned long and hard on issues of direct democracy and

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has considerable expertise about them. I think the right approach and

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the one we put forward before is to say yes of course there should be a

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constituency mechanism but before that there ought to be an act of

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censure by a committee of this House for wrongdoing. That's the right

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approach. I know that we won't necessarily agree about this but we

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Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1171 seconds

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will bring forward our proposals, evidence from that, perhaps he will

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listen to the Labour minister in the NHS at the time. Fortunately,

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he lost his seat in Warwickshire to a Conservative! But this is what he

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says. In many ways, GPS got the best deal they ever had from their

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2004 contract and since then, we have, in a sense, been recovering.

:39:09.:39:13.

That is what happened. One million more people coming through our

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doors, an excellent performance by doctors and nurses but let down by

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the last Labour government. He has been peddling this line about the

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GP contract for some months now. But let's just understand this.

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What happened to A&E witchs between 2004 and 2010? They fell

:39:35.:39:45.
:39:45.:39:45.

dramatically. -- A&E waits. The head of Practitioners said, I think

:39:45.:39:50.

it is lazy to blame that contract. They are blaming a contract that is

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nearly 10 years old that became a problem recently. That is the

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reality, Mr Speaker, about the contract. And now let's turn to a

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problem that even he cannot deny. These A&E pressures have been

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compounded by three years of structural reform. In other words,

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the top-down reorganisation that nobody wanted and nobody voted for.

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Why doesn't he admit what everybody in the health service knows? That

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that top-down reorganisation diverted resources away from

:40:27.:40:37.
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There are now more cancelled operations I am quoting the Labour

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Minister responsible for this who points out this was part of the

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problem. If people want to know what went wrong under the NHS under

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Labour, they only have to look at the mid Staffordshire hospital. If

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people want to know what's going wrong with the NHS under Labour now,

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they only need to look at Wales. Wales where they haven't met any of

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their targets, where they cut the NHS by 8%, that is the effect of

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Labour in Wales. He talks about reorganisation. The fact is we have

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been scrapping bureaucracy and putting that money into the

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Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1171 seconds

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putting that money into the frontline. That's why there are They

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told us they were going to be men of iron discipline. And yet they said

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do I think the last Labour Government spent too much, had too

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much debt. No I don't think there is evidence for that. On the economy

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they're weak and divided ap the same old Labour. The people of Epping

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Forest want to have a referendum on our relationship with the European

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Union. Well, my right honourable friend welcomed the private members'

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bill brought forward by the honourable member for Stockton,

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which would require a referendum by 2017 and will he enthusiastically

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encourage members on all sides of the House to vote for it when it

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comes forward? I certainly welcome the private members' bill brought

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forward by my honourable friend. It's right to hold that referendum

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before the end of 2017. The interesting thing about today's

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newspapers is that we read that half of the Labour Shadow cabinet want a

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referendum too. Hands up who wants a referendum? Come on, don't be shy!

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Why don't you want to let the people choose? The people's party doesn't

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trust the people! Thatcher said her greatest achievement was New Labour.

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Given the treacherous decision to commit a Tory spending plans, is his

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greatest achievement one nation Labour? I hope I can do a bit better

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than that. Will the Prime Minister confirm that he will recall

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parliament before any action is taken to arm the Syrian opposition

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during the recess? I have never been someone who's wanted to stand

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against the House having to say on any of thesish use and I have always

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been someone early on to make sure that parliament is recalled to

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discuss important issues. Let me stress, as I did on Monday, no

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decision has been taken to arm the rebels so I don't think this issue

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arises but I supported holding that vote on Iraq. In my premiership when

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there was the issue of Libya I recalled the House as soon as I

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could and allow the House to have a vote. This issue doesn't arise at

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present because we have made no decision to arm the rebels.

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again we have no answers from the Prime Minister who blames everyone

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but himself and denies a crisis in the A&E. Let me give him one more

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chance to try and give an answer to this House. Why doesn't he admit

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what everyone in the health service knows, the reorganisation has

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diverted attention, has diverted resources away from patient care and

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he has betrayed his promises. Can we now have an answer? The on bigs of

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the bureaucracy that this Government has brought about will put billions

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back. The point he has to take on, this Government made a decision,

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which was not to cut the NHS. We are putting �12. 7 billion extra into

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the NHS. That decision was described as irresponsible by his own Shadow

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Secretary of State. If Labour was in power they would be cutting the NHS.

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How do eknow that? Because that's what they're doing in Wales. Where

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they cut the NHS by 8%. He may not like his own policy, but that's what

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it is. Beyond child benefit, has the Prime Minister received any

:46:10.:46:12.

representations consistent representations, on welfare reform

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from the party opposite? I know that I've been the one on holiday in

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Ibiza, but they've been take taking policy altering substances! Last

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week they were in favour of child benefit, now they're against it.

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Then they were in favour of winter fuel allowance, now they want to

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abolish it. And only this morning, only this morning, we find out that

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they may not go ahead with this policy of scrapping child benefit. I

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think the truth is that the Leader of the Opposition is allowed to make

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coffee for the Shadow Chancellor, but he can't tell him what the

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policy is! Could the Prime Minister assure the House that the Bill on

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lobbying will include a ban on people paying �50,000 to dine in

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Downing Street? What the Bill on lobbying will do is have a register

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for lobbyist, which has been promised and should be delivered.

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What the Bill on lobbying will also do is make sure we look at the

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impact of all third parties on our politics, including the trade

:47:26.:47:36.
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unions. Does my right honourable friend agree that the actions of the

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European Court on human rights is seeking to frustrate the will of the

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British people in ridding ourselves of terrorists, illustrates the

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extent to which that court has betrayed its original mandate and I

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wonder if he could update the House on what actions he proposes the

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Government to take? I wonder if he has read the comments of the

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President of that court, if we were to succeed it would put our record

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on credibility in doubt whereas it's the credibility is in doubt.

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completely understand and share much of my honourable friend's

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frustration. We should remember that Britain helped to found the European

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Court of Human Rights and it has played an important role in making

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sure Europe never suffers the abuses that we saw, but 50 years on, it's

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absolutely clear this court needs reform. My right honourable friend,

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the former Justice Secretary, led that process of reform and we have

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achieved some changes, but it's quite clear to me we need further

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changes and the court to focus on real abuses and not on overruling

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parliaments. Mr Speaker, the north-east has renewable energy

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industries ready to invest, but they need certainty. Yesterday, MPs from

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all sides of the House voted for a decarbonisation target. Given that

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his majority was slashed to just 23, would he show some leadership and

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think again and back British industry in green jobs? I understand

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completely the point the honourable lady makes and I do agree that

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businesses need certainty and that's why we have given the certainty of a

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levy control framework of over �7 billion. That's why we have given

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them the certainty of if they sign contracts now, they get the

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renewable obligations for 20 years. We have given them the certainty of

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a Green Investment Bank, but does it make sense to fix a target now

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before we have agreed the carbon budget and before we even know where

:49:40.:49:44.

capture and storage works properly? The businesses I talk to say that

:49:44.:49:54.
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it's not their priority. People convicted of sex offences against

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children are supposed to face a prison sentence. Will the Prime

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Minister retire judges who fail to imprison convicted paedophiles?

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There is obviously in our country a very important separation of powers

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and politicians are not, although in spite of the fact we might like to

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comment, on individual judges. We shouldn't and it would be a

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dangerous road, but we have clear laws we pass inside this country

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about how serious Parliament thinks offences are and judges should pay

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heed to those laws. I'm going to give him another chance to answer on

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recall. Does he seriously plan to give a Parliamentary committee the

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right to block the public's chance to vote on recalling a convicted MP?

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I want to say, it's not the thinking. The thinking is this - of

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course, you want to have a process whereby constituents, threw a

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petition, can call for the recall of their MP. But because the main way

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we throw MPs out of Parliament is at an election, there should be a cause

:50:58.:51:03.

for that recall to take place. That is why we have a standards Standards

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and Privileges Committee and why it now has outside members. That is why

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that committee has the power to suspend members of Parliament and to

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expel them and I believe, but we can debate and discuss this across the

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House, I think it would be right, before you trigger a recall, that

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there should be some sort of censure by the House to in order to ensure

:51:27.:51:30.

vexatious attempts of getting rid of members who are doing a reasonable

:51:30.:51:35.

job. Some of us on the benches believe Government plans to replace

:51:35.:51:39.

20,000 regulars, including the 2nd Battalion The Royal Regiment of

:51:39.:51:43.

Fusiliers with 30,000 reservists will prove a false economy. The

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present TA mobilisation rate of 40% suggests we need 50,000 reservists

:51:49.:51:55.

and financial incentives will mean ex-regular reservists will be on

:51:55.:51:59.

better pay than a bridge deer. Further to our letter to the Prime

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Minister of 9th April, will he meet with us to discuss this and other

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concerns, including the wisdom of this policy in this increasingly

:52:08.:52:12.

uncertain world? I'm always happy to meet with my honourable friend and

:52:12.:52:16.

discuss these and, indeed, other issues. The point I would make to

:52:16.:52:22.

him, is that in Spending Review, we produced �1. 5 about in order to

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provide the uplift for the TA that it requires, because I'm absolutely

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convinced it is right to have a different balance between regular

:52:31.:52:34.

and reserves as other countries have done, but obviously, it's absolutely

:52:34.:52:37.

vital that we get that new recruitment of our reserve forces.

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That's why the money is there. On the wider issues of defence that I

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know he cares about, the point I would make is we'll have some of the

:52:45.:52:48.

best-equipped forces anywhere in the world. We'll have the new aircraft

:52:48.:52:53.

carriers for the Navy and the hunter killer submarines and the Joint

:52:53.:52:58.

Strike Fighter and of course, the excellent typhoon and the A 400M

:52:58.:53:01.

will be into service and when you talk to the troops in Afghanistan

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they now tell you they are better equipped, better protected and

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provided for than they've ever been in our history. The Prime Minister's

:53:11.:53:15.

pledge to lead against hunger at the G8 and the UN is welcome. Will it

:53:15.:53:23.

extend to EU negotiations on the future of the misdirected 10%

:53:23.:53:26.

directive on biofuels, which basically burns as fuel for Europe,

:53:26.:53:29.

which should be food for the poor? Does the Prime Minister recognise

:53:29.:53:33.

that that mandate is driving land grabs and raising food prices

:53:33.:53:41.

compounding hunger and adding to carbon emissions? He'll be deleted

:53:41.:53:44.

we are bringing the G8 to Northern Ireland and we can discuss some of

:53:45.:53:48.

these issues at that meeting. I agree with him, that we shouldn't

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allow the production of biofuels to undermine food security. We want to

:53:52.:53:59.

go further than the Commission's proposed cap of 5% on cbasebased

:53:59.:54:06.

biofuels, so there is considerable merit in what he says. The weekend

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before last there was a community swim which could have become a

:54:11.:54:14.

tragedy where it not for the brave efforts of the emergency services

:54:14.:54:19.

and in particular the volunteer coastguards and the RNLI. Can the

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Prime Minister join with me in thanking our volunteer coastguards

:54:22.:54:30.

and in particular Paul Callaghan, Paul Barker and Rob Kelvey in

:54:30.:54:35.

pulling out 63 people from the water? I certainly join the

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honourable lady. The RNLI do an extraordinary job for our country.

:54:40.:54:44.

They are really one of our emergency services and should be treated as

:54:44.:54:48.

such. I think she is absolutely right to raise this case and I join

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her in paying tribute to those people. I wonder if the Prime

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Minister can assist me with a question that the Treasury have been

:54:57.:55:01.

unable to answer for the last two months? Will British taxpayers'

:55:01.:55:07.

money be used to guarantee the mortgages of foreign citizens who

:55:07.:55:12.

buy property here? The Chancellor will set out details of this in the

:55:12.:55:22.
:55:22.:55:27.

announcements that he plans to make. I want to hear Mr Davies, the voice

:55:27.:55:32.

of Shipley. Let's hear him. recently visited my brother in

:55:32.:55:38.

hospital in Doncaster to find that to use the TV above his bed would

:55:38.:55:42.

cost him �6 a day. Can the Prime Minister justify why it costs

:55:42.:55:46.

hospital patients �42 a week to watch the television when it only

:55:46.:55:50.

costs prisoners �1 a week to watch the TV and if he can't justify it,

:55:50.:55:54.

can he tell us what he'll do about it? As someone who has spent a lot

:55:54.:55:59.

of time in hospitals, I absolutely share his frustrations. It was the

:55:59.:56:03.

last Government that introduced the charges on televisions in hospital

:56:03.:56:11.

in the year 2 00. -- 2000. Many an hour I've spent with that

:56:11.:56:14.

complicated telephone and credit card system that you have to try to

:56:14.:56:18.

make work. These are, I'm afraid, devolved decisions that local

:56:18.:56:23.

hospitals can now make themselves. In terms of prisons, my right

:56:23.:56:26.

honourable friend the Lord Chancellor is doing something. He's

:56:26.:56:32.

taking the unacceptable situation from the Labour Party, where you can

:56:32.:56:36.

take out a Sky subscription when you are in prison and making sure that

:56:36.:56:45.

prisoners pay if they use the television. The Justice Secretary's

:56:45.:56:49.

slashing of the Legal Aid budget will lead to quality advice being

:56:49.:56:57.

the exclusive preserve of the rich and privileged. Given that the --

:56:57.:57:01.

that situation, is this by design or appearance? First, I think everyone

:57:01.:57:06.

in the House has to recognise that we need to grapple with the Legal

:57:06.:57:09.

Aid bill. Even the Labour Party, in their manifesto at the last general

:57:09.:57:14.

election, said they were going to look at the costs of Legal Aid. The

:57:14.:57:19.

fact is, per head we spend �39 per head of the population, whereas in

:57:19.:57:25.

New Zealand with a common law system they spend �8 per head. The total

:57:25.:57:33.

cost of the top three criminal cases in 2011-12 was �21 million. Now, at

:57:33.:57:36.

a time when we are having to make difficult decisions, I think it's

:57:36.:57:40.

absolutely right to look at Legal Aid. We put out a consultation and

:57:40.:57:43.

the responses have been received. We can consider those responses

:57:43.:57:52.

carefully, but we do need to make reductions in it. A loan of �50,000

:57:52.:57:58.

from the regional growth fund through the local society has helped

:57:58.:58:05.

create 12 jobs in just six months in manufacturing start-up firms. With

:58:05.:58:08.

the manufacturing purchasing managers' index at a 14-month high,

:58:08.:58:12.

can I encourage the Prime Minister in his determination to restore the

:58:12.:58:18.

UK as a manufacturing powerhouse? I'm grateful for my honourable

:58:18.:58:21.

friend's question. I think there has been some more welcome news about

:58:21.:58:25.

the economy continuing to heal. We saw the services figures out today.

:58:25.:58:28.

The construction figures are out yesterday. The growth figures in the

:58:28.:58:32.

economy. We are making progress. But we have to stick to the plan. We

:58:32.:58:35.

have to stick to the difficult decisions that we are taking and

:58:35.:58:39.

avoid the complete chaos and confusion being offered by the party

:58:39.:58:45.

opposite. Before the election the Prime Minister said there would be

:58:46.:58:50.

no more top-down re-organisations in the NHS and later went on to say he

:58:50.:58:54.

wouldn't lose control of waiting times in A&E departments. Why does

:58:54.:58:59.

he keep making promises that he just can't keep? What we promised is we

:58:59.:59:05.

wouldn't cut the NHS, but put extra money in. We are putting in �12. 7

:59:05.:59:09.

billion extra. Let me say it one more time - Labour's official policy

:59:09.:59:16.

is to cut the NHS. They said that our policy - it's not. That's

:59:16.:59:26.

changed as well. We have a new health policy! Honestly, so many you

:59:26.:59:31.

turns, they should be having a Grand Prix. -- so many U-turns, they

:59:31.:59:37.

should be having a Grand Prix. A&E staff shortages don't develop in

:59:38.:59:43.

three years, but will the Prime Minister look into why the downgrade

:59:43.:59:47.

of Cheltenham A&E is going ahead without the outcome of the public

:59:47.:59:53.

consultation being considered in public either by the clinical

:59:53.:00:01.

commissioning group or the health and well of being board?

:00:01.:00:05.

re-organisation has to meet the test that's the Health Secretary sets

:00:05.:00:10.

out, but he's right to say there is no-one single cause of difficulties

:00:10.:00:15.

we face. Clearly, one million extra patients is a huge amount extra. We

:00:16.:00:19.

have increased the funds going into the NHS, but there are big

:00:19.:00:23.

challenges to meet. The question is, will we meet them by cutting the

:00:23.:00:27.

NHS, which was Labour's policy? Will we meet them by another

:00:27.:00:30.

re-organisation, which is Labour's policy? No, we won't. We'll deal

:00:30.:00:35.

with this problem by making sure we manage the NHS effectively and

:00:35.:00:45.
:00:45.:00:46.

continue to put the money in. journalist masquerading as a

:00:46.:00:50.

lobbyist entrapped a Tory MP that the Prime Minister decided to launch

:00:50.:00:55.

an all-out attack on trade unions? He conveniently forgets to mention

:00:55.:00:59.

the Labour peers. I think we do have a problem in Parliament with the

:00:59.:01:04.

influence of third parties. We do need to deal with that. Clearly, the

:01:04.:01:09.

matter of all-party Parliamentary groups. Clearly, that needs to be

:01:09.:01:14.

looked at. As we promised in the coalition agreement, we'll bring

:01:14.:01:18.

forward a lobbying register and we will bring forward some measures to

:01:18.:01:27.

make sure the trade unions behave properly too. May I commend my right

:01:27.:01:30.

honourable friend's strong support for the continuation of the British

:01:30.:01:36.

nuclear deterrent? Now the alternatives to Trident study has

:01:36.:01:40.

concluded there are none, cheaper or more effectively, what are the

:01:40.:01:44.

reasons for delaying a main-gate decision so the matter can be

:01:44.:01:49.

settled in this Parliament? We have set out very clearly the steps that

:01:49.:01:52.

need to be taken before that main-gate decision is made, but he

:01:52.:01:57.

knows I'm strongly committed to the renewal of the deterrent on a

:01:57.:02:00.

like-for-like basis. I think it's right for Britain. Obviously, in the

:02:00.:02:04.

coalition, a study has been carried out. My own view is very clear and I

:02:04.:02:08.

looked at the evidence again on becoming Prime Minister. It's that I

:02:08.:02:13.

believe if you want to have a credible deterrent, you need that

:02:14.:02:18.

sea posture and a submarine-based deterrent and not based on cruise

:02:19.:02:23.

missiles, but ICBMs. I believe it's right and all the evidence points in

:02:23.:02:32.

that direction. The family of Drummer Lee Rigby live on an estate

:02:32.:02:38.

in my constituency. I visited the parents last week and they were very

:02:38.:02:40.

appreciative of everything that has been said in support of the family,

:02:40.:02:46.

particularly from the local estate. There was a memorial service held in

:02:46.:02:52.

the town centre, which was greatly attended. Local people were able to

:02:53.:02:56.

pay their respects. Will the Prime Minister join me in commending the

:02:56.:03:01.

people of Middleton for the very strong, but sensitive support for

:03:01.:03:05.

the family during this very sad time? I will certainly join the

:03:05.:03:08.

Monday rabble member for what he said about the people of Middleton

:03:08.:03:12.

and the great respect and support and solidarity that they've shown

:03:12.:03:16.

for the Family of Lee Rigby. There are many lessons to learn from this,

:03:17.:03:19.

as we discussed in the House on Monday, but it is another moment for

:03:19.:03:24.

everyone in this House and in this country to reflect again on the

:03:24.:03:28.

magnificent service that the men and women of our avermed armed forces

:03:29.:03:38.
:03:39.:03:39.

give -- armed forces give to our country. Today, my friend was

:03:39.:03:43.

awarded a World Health Organisation medal to mark world no tobacco

:03:44.:03:48.

today. Will the Prime Minister congratulate him on this issue and

:03:48.:03:52.

support his campaign for packaging of cigarettes? I missed the

:03:52.:03:56.

beginning of the question, so I didn't hear who got the medal, but

:03:56.:04:01.

whoever it was - certainly, he gave a magnificent introduction to the

:04:01.:04:05.

Queen's Speech and I commend him for his medal, but on the issue of the

:04:05.:04:15.
:04:15.:04:26.

lot of questions about the waiting lists for A&E from the leader of the

:04:26.:04:30.

opposition. He seemed to answer most by talking about the situation of

:04:30.:04:36.

the health service in Wales, which was interesting, but MrMiliband was

:04:36.:04:39.

asking about England, for which the Prime Minister is responsible

:04:39.:04:42.

through his Health Secretary so we will come to that. We also learn

:04:42.:04:48.

just to mark our cards here from an answer the Prime Minister gave to a

:04:48.:04:51.

Conservative backbencher that if it is the decision of the British

:04:51.:04:57.

Government to arm the Syrian rebels and the EU has changed its policy

:04:57.:05:01.

that would at least allow that to happen, if it happens in the summer

:05:01.:05:05.

the House will be recalled, it will be debated and there will probably I

:05:05.:05:12.

suspect be a vote on it. So we are already all rearc rearcing --

:05:12.:05:17.

rearranging our holidays. First, let's hear from what you made of it

:05:17.:05:24.

all from e-mails They were mainly about the A&E discussion. David

:05:24.:05:27.

said, you are broadcasting the wrong programme, Cameron seems to think

:05:27.:05:31.

this is leader of the opposition questions, if he wants to be the one

:05:31.:05:34.

asking questions rather than answering. Ian said, it was a

:05:34.:05:37.

pathetic performance from Ed Miliband, started badly and went

:05:38.:05:44.

downhill quickly. David Cameron totally crucified him. James said

:05:44.:05:47.

that Ed Miliband seemed to win the day. The Prime Minister doesn't seem

:05:47.:05:52.

to be aware of the catastrophe unfolding throughout the country.

:05:52.:05:55.

John said, Ed Miliband complains about hospital waiting times when

:05:55.:06:00.

his Government allowed in too many immigrants who use the NHS. Another

:06:00.:06:05.

said, the Prime Minister keeps referencing Wales in his answers and

:06:05.:06:09.

questions on the NHS. We will fill you in with information on that in

:06:09.:06:13.

the discussion afterwards. At least I hope we will. Christopher said,

:06:13.:06:17.

why don't both sides raise the subject of society doing their bit

:06:17.:06:21.

to improve the NHS? My wife works for the NHS in radiology and the

:06:21.:06:24.

amount of times the general public don't bother to turn up for their

:06:24.:06:28.

appointment is a travesty. Happens on a daily basis and costs the NHS

:06:29.:06:35.

millions. Interesting point on that. What did you make of that? Briefly

:06:35.:06:40.

picking up the vote over Syria, it's significant, at the time of Iraq the

:06:40.:06:44.

whole debate was, did the Commons have to vote before British troops

:06:44.:06:49.

went to action? The Conservatives came up with a sort of equivalent of

:06:49.:06:52.

the American War Powers Act, the idea parliament should vote in the

:06:52.:06:56.

way Congress has to vote. I think it's interesting that the Prime

:06:56.:07:01.

Minister's extending that, or by implication, he didn't state it,

:07:01.:07:05.

extending that to the sense not if British troops went but there was a

:07:05.:07:12.

decision to arm Syrian rebel it's -- rebels, that that is important

:07:12.:07:16.

enough for parliament to be recalled And problems if there was any covert

:07:16.:07:22.

arming of rebels in a part of the world, by definite significance of

:07:22.:07:24.

covert it could not come to parliament and could back to haunt

:07:24.:07:30.

the Government of the day at a later time. Why are A&E waiting lists the

:07:30.:07:33.

higher for nine years? Those figures being quoted are historic and the

:07:34.:07:41.

numbers have already gone back down. 96. 7% is the number of - that

:07:41.:07:44.

report referred to an earlier quarter where this was a problem.

:07:44.:07:49.

Why? Because there are a million people more a year using the A&Es

:07:49.:07:53.

Why is that? A series of different reasons, but not entirely

:07:53.:07:56.

unconnected in part at least to things like change in the GP

:07:56.:08:00.

contract, if you go back to a long time ago now, but 2004 and look at

:08:00.:08:06.

the numbers attending A&E since GPs no longer had to do weekend and

:08:06.:08:10.

out-of-hours services, you see that chart go up year on year. Why did

:08:10.:08:14.

waiting times not increase between 2004 and 2009 when the GP contract

:08:14.:08:18.

had been introduced? There was an interesting thing... Nothing as bad

:08:18.:08:21.

as they became under your Government. Let's be clear, what

:08:21.:08:24.

Labour did with waiting times was set the four hours, which is fine

:08:24.:08:27.

and we agree with it and that's the measure we are talking about here.

:08:27.:08:32.

What they said with this four-hour waiting list must exist to the

:08:32.:08:36.

exclusion of everything else, so you get situations where people will be

:08:36.:08:43.

moved out of the A&E, sometimes back to an ambulance or ward to make that

:08:43.:08:47.

four hours, worse you would get a Mid-Staffs situation where targets

:08:47.:08:51.

led to inappropriate care and killed people. Now, what we have said is we

:08:51.:08:56.

need to be more flexible about this. There are occasions for whatever

:08:56.:09:01.

reason it's inappropriate to fix as we said, 95% is the four-hour

:09:01.:09:05.

waiting time and at the moment we are hitting 96. 7% You made none of

:09:05.:09:10.

that clear before it started to go pear-shaped. In 2011 in June the

:09:10.:09:13.

Prime Minister said, I refuse to go back to the days when people had to

:09:13.:09:20.

wait for hours on end to be seen in A&E. Let me be absolutely clear, we

:09:20.:09:25.

won't. And yet we - you say it's got better, we will look at that after

:09:25.:09:29.

this programme. But you ended up with the highest for nine years and

:09:29.:09:31.

on top of that you have twice as many people in the back of

:09:31.:09:35.

ambulances, twice as many people on trolleys in the kror doshes. You

:09:35.:09:41.

have not -- corridors. You have not kept your promise We had a tough

:09:41.:09:46.

winter, the weather was particularly harsh, more people wept to A&E, I

:09:46.:09:50.

mentioned we have a million people using A&E. In areas like mine where

:09:50.:09:55.

the last Government closed down our full A&E service in my local

:09:55.:09:59.

hospital that added to more pressures. But it is also worth

:09:59.:10:03.

reflecting that was a single quarter and the numbers have already

:10:03.:10:09.

recovered. Over 96 out of 100 people will not be waiting. I want to get

:10:10.:10:14.

this clear, when the Prime Minister says, as Prime Minister, not in

:10:14.:10:19.

opposition, so let me be absolutely clear we won't, what that means is

:10:19.:10:23.

not what clear English means. It means we won't unless we have a

:10:23.:10:27.

tough winter. We won't unless there are things happen that mean the

:10:27.:10:31.

waiting list times will go up. it means is you don't want to allow

:10:31.:10:34.

that situation to develop and it hasn't because we already know

:10:35.:10:39.

subsequent figures brought it down. And what's more, we are taking

:10:39.:10:43.

important action to make sure this doesn't continue, including to go

:10:43.:10:47.

back to the first point, sorting out the idea that GPs are primarily

:10:47.:10:50.

responsible for the populations in their area. One of the problems is

:10:50.:10:53.

that people now, rather than going to their GP and particularly

:10:53.:10:56.

out-of-hours, say you know what, I know where I can get service, where

:10:56.:11:01.

I can get to see a GP straightaway, I will go to the A&E Clearly not

:11:01.:11:06.

straightaway! It's the highest for nine years. It puts pressures on we

:11:06.:11:09.

are going to fix that by sorting out the GPs at least having

:11:09.:11:13.

responsibility for providing that out-of-hours. I think that's

:11:13.:11:16.

complacent, if you hear day-to-day experiences of people trying to get

:11:16.:11:23.

a proper service and service that was sorted essentially and...

:11:23.:11:28.

Targets have been an important factor in this. Linking it to

:11:28.:11:31.

Mid-Staffs was not appropriate. That was a particular experience and by

:11:31.:11:34.

and large targets worked and people were satisfied they were getting a

:11:34.:11:41.

proper level of service. Targets kill people. They don't.

:11:41.:11:45.

Margaret develop her point. point is one of the things, they

:11:45.:11:49.

keep wanting to blame the GP contracts. One of the Big Issues

:11:49.:11:52.

happening, and you didn't make reference to it, that's the crisis

:11:52.:11:57.

in social care. There is a huge crisis in social care which is

:11:57.:12:02.

blocking up the system in hospitals. Some older people are going directly

:12:02.:12:04.

to A&E and they don't need to because of the collapse of social

:12:05.:12:07.

care that's happening in certain local authorities in England and

:12:07.:12:12.

also with the crisis, for example, in NHS Direct where it was working

:12:12.:12:16.

before and it's now failing badly under your guidance and people are

:12:16.:12:23.

being referred directly into the A&E service. What do you make of his

:12:23.:12:28.

claim that the A&E waiting times are back on track again? Well, that's

:12:28.:12:32.

not what the King's Fund said the other day as I understand it. You

:12:32.:12:35.

were making comments about the different quarters but it seems to

:12:35.:12:38.

me the experience out there and what's been in the papers this week

:12:38.:12:42.

and all the professionals are telling us, there is a crisis and

:12:42.:12:47.

you are saying sorry it was the last quart quarter, not this quarter.

:12:47.:12:50.

King's Fund have said the strain on emergency care in early this year

:12:50.:12:55.

could be repeated next winter. not trying to play politics with it

:12:55.:13:00.

and I accept some of what Margaret said. The number of elderly people,

:13:00.:13:03.

people living longer and pressures that come from that. One of the

:13:03.:13:12.

reasons we want to sort out long-term care in people's homes.

:13:12.:13:17.

They're part of the longer term solution to this. Also giving GPs

:13:17.:13:21.

the clear responsibility through now these clinical commissioning groups

:13:21.:13:24.

to say, you are responsible for these out-of-hours things. It's no

:13:24.:13:27.

longer acceptable to say we are closed, there is an answer phone on

:13:27.:13:32.

and go to your local hospital. me come back to Nick. The Prime

:13:32.:13:37.

Minister was in good form today as we have seen. In terms of policy and

:13:37.:13:43.

change of tone or even stance, this is Labour's week. We have had Ed

:13:43.:13:48.

Balls speech and MrMiliband's tomorrow. There is a significant

:13:48.:13:52.

repositioning of Labour taking place, isn't there? There was meant

:13:52.:13:55.

to be. In other words, the Labour Party have looked at the opinion

:13:56.:13:59.

polls, they know that they had a problem, which is they were not

:13:59.:14:03.

ahead on measures of economic competence, despite the fact the

:14:03.:14:07.

economy's clearly not been going to course. Often oppositions aren't

:14:07.:14:11.

ahead, even Mrs Thatcher from memory was behind before she won that

:14:11.:14:18.

election in 1979 on that measure, but they've also had criticism from

:14:18.:14:20.

senior figures saying it's not good enough to oppose cuts. This was

:14:20.:14:25.

meant to be the week in which the Labour Party said, look, we getting

:14:25.:14:29.

real, if you like, about the choices we will face if we get back into

:14:29.:14:34.

power in two years' time. Linking our discussions, the irony is, and

:14:34.:14:39.

it's sometimes the problem with politics, if you were to go in to

:14:39.:14:42.

the Tory health Minister's department and then to go to the

:14:42.:14:47.

Tory - the Labour Shadow Health Minister's department they would be

:14:47.:14:50.

having the same conversations about the same dilemmas. Neither have

:14:50.:14:52.

money to sort out the problem. They're worried about the GP

:14:52.:14:56.

contract. They're all worried about the fact the large numbers of

:14:56.:14:59.

immigrants came from countries in Eastern Europe where there is no

:14:59.:15:05.

tradition... And tend to go to hospitals first These are shared

:15:06.:15:15.
:15:16.:15:28.

you very much. We all want a comfortable retirement but unless we

:15:28.:15:33.

start properly saving for the future it's by no means guaranteed.

:15:33.:15:35.

Pensions specialist Margaret De Valois says we all need to save from

:15:35.:15:40.

day one in our working life. She went to the park to join workers

:15:40.:15:50.
:15:50.:16:02.

enjoying the sun on their lunch Everyone needs to save more for

:16:02.:16:06.

their retirements. It's not rocket science. The earlier you start to

:16:06.:16:11.

save the more money you will have when you retire. In the old days you

:16:11.:16:15.

might have retired at age 60 and lived for another ten years. Now you

:16:15.:16:25.
:16:25.:16:31.

could be retired for as long as you were working. Pensions is a young

:16:31.:16:36.

person's issue not just old, because we are all living longer and there

:16:36.:16:41.

is less money from the estate. Young people manage to -- State. Young

:16:41.:16:46.

people manage to save for a gap year, so yo not the same focus on

:16:46.:16:51.

pensions? Pensions in a loerm game like health and elderly care, but

:16:51.:16:55.

politicians just look to the future? They just want to get electioned.

:16:55.:16:58.

They don't want to take difficult, long-term decisions to effect

:16:58.:17:03.

generations into the future. Having said that, the Government has done

:17:03.:17:07.

well to introduce automatic enrolment into the workplace. It's

:17:07.:17:11.

been rolled out now. But, some people may be shocked by the drop in

:17:11.:17:21.
:17:21.:17:28.

their monthly income and decide to a part to play. We, the pensions

:17:28.:17:32.

industry, certainly do and the media as well. Who is is talking about

:17:32.:17:36.

saving for their pension in EastEnders? Pensions is an issue for

:17:36.:17:43.

us all. We need to understand them better and we need to get saving.

:17:43.:17:46.

Margaret de Valois is here with us. Forgive me for asking this question,

:17:46.:17:51.

but you are an expert, so you're going to tell everybody to get a

:17:51.:17:55.

pension. We are, yeah, but it's in the public's best interests. This is

:17:55.:18:00.

not about us, the industry, but about you. This is about the viewers

:18:00.:18:04.

at home. We were talking about long-term care and we are all living

:18:04.:18:07.

longer and we are going to get less from the investment markets, because

:18:07.:18:12.

interest rates are low. It's really important that people put some money

:18:12.:18:17.

a aside and as much as they can, albeit a small amount, so they are

:18:17.:18:21.

protected for the future. How do you persuade young people, who have seen

:18:21.:18:26.

the banking crisis and great economic uncertainty, annuities have

:18:26.:18:30.

been extremely volatile and are very low, thinking what is the point of

:18:30.:18:33.

putting aside that money? Why not spend it or save it for a house for

:18:33.:18:38.

the next ten years, not for the next 40 years? Absolutely. The key with

:18:38.:18:43.

pensions is that they are quite simple. You put in a bit and your

:18:43.:18:48.

employer puts a bit in, or if you are self-employed the Government

:18:48.:18:54.

puts some in. Then the pension fund loses it all. That's what they're

:18:54.:18:59.

worried about! The key is the longer that you save the more you can get

:18:59.:19:03.

that money to grow and to work for you. There is something about paying

:19:03.:19:07.

off the debt first, so if you've got debts to pay off, then it's

:19:07.:19:10.

important to make sure you are from a level playing field, but the

:19:10.:19:14.

longer you can save, the harder the pension will work for you. It's

:19:14.:19:19.

worth thinking about it. The key is to understand pensions and then make

:19:19.:19:23.

a decision as opposed to just assuming that pensions are

:19:23.:19:27.

expensive. That you'll never provide for yourself, so why bother? A

:19:27.:19:32.

little bit will go a long way. persuading people and changing the

:19:33.:19:37.

mindset. They have something at Number Ten, called the Nudge Unit,

:19:37.:19:41.

trying to change behaviour and this is one of the most difficult areas

:19:41.:19:47.

to make people think it's worthwhile doing it. How do you do it? You can

:19:47.:19:51.

say, if you put it aside it will be there later on, but it wasn't worked

:19:51.:20:01.

well. The Nudge Unit has worked. You need to have people enrolling when

:20:01.:20:05.

they go into a job they are automatically signed up. You have to

:20:05.:20:09.

make them do it. That's the result, isn't it, that in the end you have

:20:09.:20:13.

to compel people to do it? I know you can opt out. Have you got any

:20:13.:20:19.

results? It comes in progressively, because smaller companies have to

:20:19.:20:23.

start doing it, but it's starting to come in. It's one of the long-term

:20:23.:20:27.

decisions that we made, along with putting up the pension age and

:20:27.:20:32.

making that automatically linked to the increasing life expectancy.

:20:32.:20:36.

I'm a 25-year-old or 27-year-old, first of all my pay is not keeping

:20:36.:20:41.

pace with invR inflation and living standards are falling. I can't even

:20:41.:20:44.

save enough to get a deposit for a house and that's my first priority.

:20:44.:20:48.

And I'm trying to pay off my student loan. Now you are saying I should

:20:48.:20:51.

also be saving for my person? It ain't going to happen. It's about

:20:52.:20:56.

doing all of those things. I haven't got the money. It's about

:20:56.:21:00.

prioritising and how will the money work hardest. If you are not

:21:00.:21:05.

contributing to a pension you are giving up free cash. If your

:21:05.:21:09.

employer is saying they'll give you money as well and you are not taking

:21:09.:21:14.

advantage, then it's free money. started my printing company with �20

:21:14.:21:19.

a month and all the years later it's worth a fortune. I don't think mine

:21:19.:21:24.

is worth anything now. But, as has been said, if you get the tax back

:21:24.:21:28.

and you can get a longer-term build, then it's worthwhile, which is why

:21:28.:21:32.

you have to do it through contributions being automatically

:21:32.:21:36.

taken from salaries. We need to come to terms with it, because people

:21:36.:21:39.

don't have pensions when they're older and we'll pay the price in

:21:39.:21:48.

another way. We'll all be working until we are 90. The other thing in

:21:48.:21:54.

2016 there will be �160 a week for the pension. We'll be doing The

:21:54.:21:57.

Daily Politics until we're 95 and won't need a pension. Only another

:21:57.:22:02.

ten years. In your caseDid you hear that? That's what I have to put up

:22:02.:22:07.

with! Thank you. Here's a question and for the record I don't want any

:22:07.:22:13.

cash for it. Well, maybe a little bit. Is Parliament sleazy? You will

:22:13.:22:19.

be forgiven for thinking so, but does the mother of parliaments get a

:22:19.:22:22.

bad press and aren't most of the public corruptible? You got the

:22:22.:22:26.

cheque in the post for watching The Daily Politics today and bumping up

:22:26.:22:31.

our viewing figures from three to six and we have been out on the

:22:31.:22:35.

streets with some big, brown envelopes. Has someone offered you a

:22:35.:22:40.

bribe to do something? No. My mum has to clean my room. Has anyone

:22:40.:22:44.

ever tried to bribe you to bend the rules? No.You never tried to bribe

:22:44.:22:48.

someone else? No. Perfectly honest. Would you say Italy's a corrupt

:22:48.:22:53.

country? Yeah. Now, sure.What is the worst example of corruption from

:22:54.:23:01.

Italy? Berlusconi.Has anyone ever tried to bribe you? Yes.Really? Can

:23:01.:23:08.

you tell me about it? She wanted to skip the queue in a restaurant.

:23:08.:23:14.

they offer you money? Yeah, but not enough. For some people this will be

:23:14.:23:19.

a liberal response, but I think some people are corrupt or have

:23:19.:23:23.

tendencies to corruption and I think that often goes with power. Have you

:23:23.:23:27.

never been tempted to offer a bribe to somebody? No, never been in a

:23:27.:23:31.

position to do so really. Either with the money or the situation.

:23:31.:23:35.

would bribe you if I had enough money? I think not. Everybody has a

:23:35.:23:45.
:23:45.:23:46.

price, I think! What is your price? I would never offer anyone any

:23:46.:23:56.
:23:56.:24:01.

money. Stop saying stupid stuff on telly. Joining us now is the

:24:01.:24:03.

uncorruptable cofounder of TransparancyIntenational,

:24:03.:24:07.

LaurenceCockcroft. He's an expert on every bribe that has been made since

:24:07.:24:13.

4,000 BC. Welcome. How do is mes sure corruption? -- mes sure

:24:13.:24:17.

corruption? Our definition of corruption is the misuse of entraSed

:24:17.:24:22.

power for personal gain. That includes Government procurement and

:24:22.:24:25.

includes the misuse of power by executives and Miss Use of aid

:24:26.:24:35.

funds. Is that information particularly in less-than democratic

:24:35.:24:38.

countries hard to get that information? Not these days because

:24:38.:24:43.

of a series of surveys that take place across the world by various

:24:43.:24:47.

organisations. You can monitor which countries are becoming less and

:24:47.:24:54.

more? You can. It changes in various ways. Does it affect how people

:24:54.:24:57.

doing business there and going there, does it do that? Most are

:24:58.:25:01.

really based on perceptions of outside investors and business

:25:01.:25:05.

people in ranking one country against another. It is country X

:25:05.:25:10.

more difficult to do business in than country Y? We'll go to a quiz.

:25:10.:25:14.

On the corruption perception index, you can help them, but not too much,

:25:14.:25:20.

name the five countries perceived to be the most corrupt in the world.

:25:20.:25:24.

Have a guess. I'll say Italy's perceived up there, because of

:25:25.:25:32.

things like the Mafia background. would say North Korea. Italy is

:25:32.:25:41.

wrong. Sudan.That's correct. You're good at this. We'll look at them

:25:41.:25:51.
:25:51.:26:03.

countries in the world? I'll include the UK. You would be wrong. Go for

:26:03.:26:08.

Scandinavia. Sweden.We'll look on the screen. Not Norway,

:26:08.:26:18.
:26:18.:26:32.

does the UK come on this list? 50. You were closer. You are a bit

:26:32.:26:37.

too glopley, but you are too optimistic. It's 17.We are 17th on

:26:37.:26:42.

the list there. Crash, bang. Over the last 200 years, who have been

:26:42.:26:52.
:26:52.:26:55.

the most corrupt leaders - sorry, last 20 years? Iraq.Then you would

:26:55.:27:05.
:27:05.:27:09.

be wrong. Indonesia. Peru and our good old Ferdinand Marcos. If you

:27:09.:27:16.

were approached by a PR firm what goes through your mind, alarm bells

:27:16.:27:22.

ringing and you run a mile when you realise it's an attack or you think

:27:23.:27:29.

hoR ray, a good Christmas this year. Where is the register? You'll have

:27:29.:27:38.

to check. What do we learn from this index? We learn that corruption is a

:27:38.:27:42.

spectrum and that you can't group some countries as good and some as

:27:42.:27:45.

bad. Corruption is an issue everywhere. It is always changing.

:27:45.:27:49.

Some countries are becoming a bit less corrupt. Others are becoming

:27:49.:27:54.

more and the forces that are driving that are varied, but one of them is

:27:54.:28:03.

party political funding. Where does America fit in? The US doesn't do

:28:03.:28:09.

well. It's shown to be more corrupt than the UK. Where is it? It's more

:28:09.:28:16.

than 17th? It's about 20th. The reason for that is as we all know,

:28:16.:28:20.

party political funding in the US is a huge scandal and the last -- out

:28:20.:28:25.

of the last five governors of Illinois, three have gone to jail.

:28:25.:28:30.

Great. Two that didn't, that's good Thank you very much. What was the

:28:30.:28:36.

answer to the competition? It was a tricky one this week. Any idea?

:28:36.:28:41.

Before the depression, maybe. wasn't that early. Margaret, press

:28:41.:28:51.
:28:51.:28:55.

that button. Now?Yeah. John Kelly did not bump into a lamp post. It's

:28:55.:29:00.

Andrew Neil and Jo Coburn with live coverage of Prime Minister's Questions and the latest political news and debate, with Conservative MP Grant Shapps and Labour MP Margaret Curran.

The Guess the Year competition closes at 12.30pm during the live broadcast of this programme.


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