14/06/2013 Daily Politics


14/06/2013

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Daily Politics. President Obama changes his mind. Syria has been

:00:46.:00:51.

using chemical weapons, so the US will start arming rebels in Syria,

:00:51.:00:55.

fighting against President Assad. Are Britain, France and America now

:00:55.:01:02.

on the same page? Four former Home Secretaries urge

:01:02.:01:06.

Nick Clegg to drop his opposition to tougher surveillance of

:01:06.:01:13.

communications. Could arts and museums funding get

:01:13.:01:21.

the chop in the upcoming Spending Review? We will discuss if arts

:01:21.:01:25.

spending can be exempt from cuts. Do Government reshuffles cause more

:01:25.:01:32.

harm than good? A report today warns Prime Ministers to think hard before

:01:32.:01:40.

shuffling the decks. All that is coming up. With us for

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the next half an hour is James Kirkup from the Telegraph and Mary

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Ann Sieghart from the Social Market Foundation. Four former Home

:01:48.:01:54.

Secretaries have accused Mr Clegg of putting lives at risk by blocking

:01:54.:02:00.

plans for what critics call the Snoopers' Charter. Supporters say

:02:00.:02:04.

they are vital to stop terrorism in the age of e-mail and social media.

:02:04.:02:07.

Theresa May had hoped a new Data Communications Bill would be

:02:07.:02:11.

included in the Queen's Speech, but Nick Clegg announced on radio that

:02:11.:02:15.

it was not going to happen - and it didn't. The Bill would have required

:02:15.:02:19.

internet companies to store users' data for a year. Here is what one of

:02:19.:02:26.

the former Home Secretaries had to say. There is bipartisan support for

:02:26.:02:30.

this Bill and there's been an all-party committee looking at the

:02:30.:02:34.

Bill, which has said narrow it down, increase the safeguards. We say yes

:02:34.:02:38.

to that. There is no particular reason why there should not be a

:02:38.:02:41.

majority in the House of Commons from the Labour Party and the

:02:41.:02:46.

Conservative Party for this Bill. As for Nick Clegg, he is not the only

:02:46.:02:52.

senior politician who said things which he may later regret. He needs

:02:52.:02:57.

to think about what is more important - supporting Google and

:02:57.:03:01.

Amazon and these other American companies or supporting security and

:03:01.:03:05.

reassurance for the British people. Jack Straw earlier this morning.

:03:05.:03:10.

James Kirkup, how much pressure does this put Mr Clegg under? More,

:03:10.:03:16.

undoubtedly. It is not news to him that there is a segment of the

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Labour Party that is still speaking for that view. Three form Labour

:03:23.:03:29.

Home Secretaries and a Tory - that is quite an array of people. That is

:03:29.:03:33.

more experience than Mr Clegg has in this area? Undoubtedly. So far, he

:03:33.:03:37.

knows full well that he's got most people against him on this. For

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whatever reason, he is deciding to take a stance. If you think - Jack

:03:44.:03:52.

Straw speaking for that Old Labour authoritarian... I thought it was

:03:52.:03:57.

the New Labour authoritarian tendency? There wouldn't have been a

:03:57.:04:01.

question about this debate. Is it conceivable that the Conservatives

:04:01.:04:06.

and Labour could get together and do this over the heads of the Lib Dems?

:04:06.:04:11.

That is an incredibly intriguing thought. I don't think it would - I

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think it would be damaging for the coalition if they did. I don't think

:04:14.:04:18.

it will happen. It was a bit rich for Jack Straw to accuse Nick Clegg

:04:18.:04:23.

of doing this because he had Google's interest at heart. That was

:04:23.:04:29.

a strange accusation, was it not? You can be right and you are wrong.

:04:29.:04:33.

Accusing them of being Mr Google was unnecessary? It was unnecessary and

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wrong. Using the killing of Lee Rigby as an excuse to bring this

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back on to the statute books is also pretty disingenuous. The killers

:04:45.:04:51.

were already on MI5's file. In your view, though, who is right and who

:04:51.:04:58.

is wrong? Do we need this extra communication powers or not? I think

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we probably do. We want to keep on top of terrorism. We always have

:05:03.:05:07.

these sorts of powers for telephones. We need to accept the

:05:07.:05:17.
:05:17.:05:22.

realities of 2 21st Century technology. I agree. There are more

:05:22.:05:32.
:05:32.:05:37.

important things you can do. Such as? Everybody needs more capacity?

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Would another 500 analyst going over this data make more of a difference?

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It will be interesting to see if this works out. Yeah.Time for the

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Daily Quiz. What has Chris Grayling said he would like to do with

:05:50.:06:00.
:06:00.:06:15.

give us the correct answer, maybe. The Obama administration has

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concluded on the basis of new evidence that the Assad regime has

:06:23.:06:29.

been using some amount of chemical weapons, including sarin in the

:06:29.:06:32.

Syrian civil war. The President is preparing to send arms to the

:06:32.:06:37.

rebels. The change in the position appears to bring it more into line

:06:37.:06:41.

of Britain and France. What is behind it? On Monday, David Cameron

:06:41.:06:45.

made a statement to Parliament on the decision to lift the EU arms

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embargo on the Syrian opposition. He said lifting the embargo did "not

:06:49.:06:55.

mean that we have made any decision to send arms, but we now have the

:06:55.:06:59.

flexibility to respond if the situation continues to deteriorate."

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Two days later, the French President, Francois Hollande, said

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that mounting evidence of the use of chemical weapons in Syria obliges

:07:08.:07:14.

the international community to act. The Foreign Secretary, he was in

:07:14.:07:19.

Washington meeting with his US counterpart, John Kerry. He said,

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"We cannot turn away from Syria and its people. We will have to be

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prepared to do more to save lives." Yesterday, announcing Mr Obama's

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U-turn, or change of heart, the US deputy Deputy National Security

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Adviser, Ben Rhodes said the use of chemical weapons crosses clear red

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lines that have existed within the international community for decades.

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President Obama's decision has been welcomed by a man who was

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campaigning to arm the Syrian rebels, senator John McCain.

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applause the President's decision. I appreciate it. The President of the

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United States had better understand that just supplying weapons is not

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going to change the equation on the ground. These people, the Free

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Syrian Army, need weapons and heavy weapons to counter tanks and

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aircraft. They ne a a no-fly zone. Bashar al-Assad's air assets have to

:08:24.:08:32.

be taken out. We can do that without risking a single American aeroplane.

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Senator McCain. We are now joined by the Conservative MP Brooks Newmark.

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He has travelled to Syria a number of times. He's met with and had

:08:42.:08:52.
:08:52.:08:52.

extensive talks with not just President Assad, but the President's

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wife. We are also joined by Jack Straw. Welcome to you both. Let me

:09:00.:09:04.

come to you, Brooks Newmark. Syria is awash with arms already. Why

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would sending more make any difference? Well, it's pretty much a

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war with heavy weaponry on the one side, with the Russians and the

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Iranians supported with Hezbollah. They have 16,000 bits of heavy

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artillery. They have an air force and so on. On the other side, they

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have mainly small arms. The better armed of the opposition at the

:09:31.:09:36.

moment happens to be the Islamists. What is happening is members of the

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Free Syrian Army is flaking away to the better-armed opposition. We need

:09:42.:09:48.

to stop that, support General Idris and do what we can to help him to

:09:48.:09:56.

bring Assad down. Let me come to the issue. If the heavier arms are with

:09:56.:10:00.

the Assad forces, it would seem that the only thing that could be a game

:10:00.:10:05.

changer would be if the Americans were to provide the rebels with

:10:05.:10:09.

heavier arms themselves, by which I mean anti-tank weapons. Is that what

:10:10.:10:15.

you want the President to do? is what I want a coalition to do,

:10:15.:10:18.

not just the United States, but the UK and France... That is what you

:10:18.:10:23.

are talking about? Sending in small arms, better small arms would be

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welcome by the FSA. This is not where the Government is today, or

:10:28.:10:32.

the Americans. I would send tank-busters and anti-aircraft

:10:32.:10:38.

weapons in. Jack Straw? concerned. I'm not saying rule out

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such weaponry at any stage. I'm really worried that such an

:10:43.:10:48.

escalation, which would mean that there would be Western boots on the

:10:48.:10:56.

ground... I disagree.You can't use this stuff. You might be able to use

:10:56.:11:03.

the rifle just after a couple of hour' training. The West would have

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to send its people in? We have this G8 coming up. Russia will be around

:11:08.:11:13.

the table. I don't think it is helpful to try and get an

:11:13.:11:18.

accommodation with Russia and get the Geneva talks off the ground to

:11:18.:11:22.

start speaking about a further escalation. We have seen - I can

:11:22.:11:26.

talk about this - it is easy to get into military action, it is much

:11:26.:11:33.

more difficult to withdraw from it. If America and the UK, and France,

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is not careful, you will get dragged into a proxy war. At any level of

:11:39.:11:46.

armaments, the Syrian government are likely to have access to heavy and

:11:46.:11:50.

more effective weaponry. They have them already. They have Russia and

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the Iranians seeing this as an existential crisis for them. Let me

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put that point. We have had no indication out of Washington that

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the administration is prepared to provide these heavier arms? Correct.

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You are right. Supposing we did go down this road of the heavier arms,

:12:13.:12:20.

every indication I have seen out of Moscow is they are prepared to

:12:20.:12:25.

provide heavier arms. I am all for negotiation. Negotiation has to be

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the ultimate outcome. For two years, we have been talking to Lavrov and

:12:31.:12:36.

Putin and to the Assad regime. They have had no incentive to come to the

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negotiating table. The message by lifting the arms embargo - the

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Foreign Secretary was right to push for this - is when you come to

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Geneva, we are serious. All options now remain on the table if you do

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not negotiate. I'm not saying heavy arms will go. Dealing with Jack's

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question, in dealing with Geneva, I think this sounds a powerful message

:12:59.:13:03.

that we are serious and you should take it seriously. What would you do

:13:03.:13:07.

if Mr Assad says, "If you are going to send heavy weapons to the rebels,

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I'm not coming to Geneva." ? probably wasn't coming anyway.

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instead he gets on the plane to Moscow and says, "Can I have a few

:13:23.:13:27.

more anti-tank-busters?" From what I know of Assad - I have dealt with

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him for five years - I think he feels strong when he is unopposed.

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Like with any bully, if he thinks there is a real threat to him, he is

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more likely - I'm not saying he will - he is more likely to come to the

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negotiating table. The Russian by sending a signal through lifting the

:13:51.:13:56.

arms embargo with the US in tune with us, it sends a strong message,

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come to Geneva, negotiate seriously. If you do not. , all options remain

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on the table. You went to a memorial service in 2005. You said, "We mourn

:14:10.:14:17.

the thousands killed here. We recall the words of Edmund Burke, "Good men

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do nothing. It is for the shame of the international community that

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this evil took place under our noses and we did nothing like enough."

:14:25.:14:33.

Yes. Many more people have been killed there than in Syria? You are

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absolutely right. The difficulty is that you have to make these

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judgments on the basis of the facts as you find them. These analogies

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are important and, indeed, I deplore them in respect of Afghanistan and

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Iraq. I'm as concerned as Brooks. I don't doubt the commitment of

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William Hague, the Foreign Secretary, in facing incredibly

:14:59.:15:06.

difficult decisions. There are no good options? There is a fine

:15:06.:15:10.

calculation here about whether suddenly increasing the arms to the

:15:10.:15:15.

rebels would or would not bring the Russians to the table. The last

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point I would make, where we need to see a shift in policy, we have to

:15:20.:15:24.

reach out to the Iranians. There is no point pretending they don't

:15:24.:15:29.

exist. There are 80 million people next to Syria. They are of

:15:29.:15:39.
:15:39.:15:39.

fundamental importance. You were trying to reach out to the Iranians

:15:39.:15:44.

for a decade on nuclear arms, and you got nowhere. If get we did not

:15:44.:15:54.
:15:54.:15:54.

get nowhere. It is the national intelligence estimate, from 2007,

:15:54.:15:59.

never subsequently contradicted, the assessment was that Iran had been

:15:59.:16:03.

trying to develop a nuclear weapons capability, but that it had

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abandoned that. So, the Iranians are incredibly difficult to deal with.

:16:08.:16:18.

So, you think there is centrifuges have stopped? No. It is a subject

:16:18.:16:21.

for another discussion, but what I know, however, is that the moderates

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in Iran were fatally undermined by President Bush calling them part of

:16:28.:16:32.

the axis of evil. That pulled the rug from under them. If you want to

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do a deal over Syria, you have got to accept the reality, Russia has

:16:36.:16:41.

got to be around the table, and so has Iran. I read your fascinating

:16:41.:16:49.

article in the Daily Mail, and you said that when you asked President

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Assad what his war aims were, he quite bluntly said, it is the

:16:52.:17:00.

preservation of the regime. Yes, when I first met him, in 2006, and I

:17:00.:17:05.

asked him, what is it you care about most chess regime survival was the

:17:05.:17:09.

first thing he said. When I asked him subsequently, when the war in

:17:09.:17:13.

Iraq was going on, why are you allowing your people over the border

:17:13.:17:19.

to attack American soldiers and so on? He said, if I do not let them,

:17:19.:17:25.

they will turn on me and attack me. The third thing he said to me was in

:17:25.:17:29.

respect of Hezbollah. He said, I am not strong enough to take on Israel

:17:29.:17:35.

correctly, I am weak militarily and economically, but I would rather use

:17:35.:17:39.

a proxy like Hezbollah to put the pressure on Israel, so that I can

:17:39.:17:44.

get the Golan Heights back. Is your problem not with us, all with the

:17:44.:17:49.

people that are watching, but with your own party? As I understand it,

:17:49.:17:54.

it is unlikely there will be a majority in the Commons for this,

:17:54.:18:00.

and Labour's position seems to be highly sceptical. We have had

:18:00.:18:04.

Douglas Alexander on the programme and he has made that clear. The Lib

:18:04.:18:07.

Dems, I think a lot of them will fall into that category, and a lot

:18:07.:18:11.

of your own members do not seem to be supporting you, so, we do not

:18:11.:18:20.

have a majority. Yes, I feel a little bit like in 12 Angry Men.

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Very angry! It is up to those of us who believe it is morally the right

:18:27.:18:30.

thing to do to persuade our colleagues. Now, most of our

:18:30.:18:37.

colleagues are not on persuadable. I think what they are saying is, look,

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we have been through Iraq and Afghanistan, and our constituents

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are concerned that we should not go through the same thing again. Let us

:18:46.:18:50.

hear the full debate, the merits of the argument. If you can persuade

:18:50.:18:56.

us, then maybe we will accept it. Lets see if you have persuaded our

:18:56.:19:03.

two journalists here - do we arm the rebels or do we not? I cannot bear

:19:03.:19:08.

to just shrug my shoulders and say, let this carry on. I would like at

:19:08.:19:18.
:19:18.:19:24.

least then to be able to have some answer to Assad's air superiority. I

:19:24.:19:30.

think it is possible to them in Jordan. But it is not easy, and it

:19:30.:19:34.

is not obvious, and do I want Al-Qaeda to have anti-aircraft

:19:34.:19:37.

missiles? Not necessarily. I agree entirely, if this was going on in

:19:37.:19:40.

our country, if this was happening to civilians, we would immediately

:19:40.:19:43.

intervene, so why is this different? On the other hand, if we take this

:19:43.:19:49.

in REL of giving the rebels surface-to-air missiles, we pay for

:19:49.:19:51.

intelligence services who spend a great deal of time trying to make

:19:51.:19:55.

sure that that kind of technology does not spread around the region

:19:55.:20:05.
:20:05.:20:07.

already. We were just slightly puzzled about that letter from the

:20:07.:20:12.

four former Home Secretary 's, but to suggest that Nick Clegg was in

:20:12.:20:16.

the pockets of Google seems a strange thing to say. The point we

:20:16.:20:19.

were drawing attention to at the end of that letter was something

:20:19.:20:27.

slightly weird, that the Liberal Democrats should, in this rate

:20:27.:20:31.

debate, be siding with these unaccountable American beer moths,

:20:31.:20:35.

rather than siding with the need for greater counterterrorist ability in

:20:35.:20:40.

this country. We have always had legislation to allow the agencies

:20:40.:20:43.

and the police to look at communications data, which is not

:20:43.:20:48.

the contents, but it is who contacted who, who text it who and

:20:48.:20:53.

who phoned Hoo. What this is about is bringing back the legislation

:20:53.:20:59.

which I first brought in 14 years ago, when the internet was barely in

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existence. That is all it is about. It is an upgrade. George Osborne,

:21:03.:21:09.

the Chancellor, is going to announce his spending plans for 2015-16 on

:21:09.:21:15.

26th June. We will carry it live on The Daily Politics. Some politicians

:21:15.:21:25.
:21:25.:21:27.

have dug their heels in to resist further cuts. In the last hour, the

:21:27.:21:30.

Treasury has confirmed that six more departments have settled, but has

:21:30.:21:34.

not given any more details. Health and international development have

:21:34.:21:38.

been exempt from the cuts, but not small spending Culture, Media and

:21:38.:21:42.

Sport. As a consequence, museums and galleries in England are bracing

:21:42.:21:47.

themselves for some bad news and possible closures. But should the

:21:47.:21:51.

arts be bolstered by public funding? Is it time for them to

:21:51.:22:01.
:22:01.:22:01.

stand a little bit more on the National Media Museum, , at risk of

:22:01.:22:06.

closure due to funding cuts, like other places. If, as expected, the

:22:06.:22:10.

forthcoming spending review cuts the Department for Culture, Media and

:22:10.:22:15.

Sport's budget by 10%, then many other arts and media sites could

:22:15.:22:22.

also be facing cuts. Many think that could be a huge mistake, at least in

:22:22.:22:28.

their own neck of the woods. This museum is essential not just to the

:22:28.:22:32.

people of Bradford, but to the North of England, and to the economy of

:22:32.:22:35.

Bradford as well. It is not something which sucks money, it is

:22:35.:22:39.

something which creates wealth in the wider Bradford economy. It is a

:22:39.:22:44.

fantastic place and we do not want to lose it. That argument is

:22:44.:22:47.

embraced by Maria Miller, the culture Secretary. She has been

:22:47.:22:51.

battling to protect her budget. She wants the Treasury to back the

:22:51.:22:57.

business case for the arts, but not everybody is buying it. I do not

:22:57.:23:00.

agree with the argument that arts should be funded by the government

:23:00.:23:03.

because they bring economic benefit. That is probably the worst reason.

:23:04.:23:08.

The Government is very bad at picking commercial winners. If we

:23:08.:23:13.

want actually to have arts which are commercially successful, which bring

:23:13.:23:17.

some commercial return, then we should leave it to those who are

:23:17.:23:22.

actually spending their own money, and able to analyse and decide how

:23:22.:23:26.

they invest and spend their money, rather than leaving it to a

:23:26.:23:28.

bureaucracy to determine which projects should be funded and which

:23:28.:23:36.

should not. People like Philip would not just like to see the budget cut.

:23:36.:23:40.

I think that the CMS should be closed down. It is a relatively new

:23:40.:23:43.

department. The idea that the Government should have a big

:23:43.:23:47.

department which is looking after things like arts, culture and sport

:23:47.:23:51.

I think is entirely wrong. Arts, culture and sport should be things

:23:51.:23:54.

which are embedded in civil society, as separate from politics as

:23:54.:24:00.

possible. The National museums of England are already coping with cuts

:24:00.:24:05.

of 20%, before this spending review even cuts in. As a result, they are

:24:05.:24:08.

beginning to think the end thinkable, and have discussed

:24:08.:24:13.

bringing back admission fees. But would that be so terrible? In fact,

:24:13.:24:15.

I think this would bring a considerable benefit to museums and

:24:15.:24:21.

galleries, like it did in the 1980s and 1990s. The idea that the only

:24:21.:24:25.

people who should not contribute to the upkeep of a museum or gallery

:24:25.:24:30.

are the people who actually visit I think is entirely misguided.

:24:30.:24:38.

Ultimately, a free admission museum is better than a paid for one, but a

:24:38.:24:42.

paid for one is better than no museum at all. I understand the

:24:42.:24:45.

arguments, but I think if we can maintain free admission, -- free

:24:45.:24:50.

admission, we should do. Uncle spending review are a feature of

:24:50.:24:54.

modern politics these days, but this one may determine whether free

:24:54.:24:57.

museums and galleries remain part of English cultural life, or whether

:24:57.:25:04.

they frazzle become part of history. We are joined now by the

:25:04.:25:10.

former ballerina Deborah Bull. Welcome to The Daily Politics.

:25:10.:25:14.

Almost every part of public life is having to take cuts at the moment -

:25:14.:25:19.

surely the arts cannot be exempt? do not think anybody is saying they

:25:19.:25:22.

should be exempt. The point was made in that film that we should not

:25:22.:25:26.

value them economically. I do not think we can value them

:25:26.:25:31.

economically. It is one tenth of 1% of government funding goes to the

:25:31.:25:36.

arts. It delivers employment, it delivers tourism, �900 million a

:25:36.:25:40.

year of tourism, inward investment, there is evidence for these things.

:25:40.:25:45.

But for me, that is not the most compelling argument. Yes, the arts

:25:45.:25:48.

should be embedded in civic society, absolutely, that the Government has

:25:48.:25:52.

a role to play in supporting that. We know that the arts deliver across

:25:52.:25:57.

so many areas. They deliver around urban regeneration, we know about

:25:57.:26:00.

social cohesion, there is evidence for this. We know that social

:26:00.:26:04.

mobility is affected, with young people from low-income families

:26:04.:26:08.

being three times more likely to get a degree if they have engaged in the

:26:08.:26:11.

arts as young people. We know that people engaged in the arts are more

:26:11.:26:16.

likely to vote, twice as likely to volunteer. So, the ability of the

:26:16.:26:20.

arts to develop across broad range of areas is really important. -- to

:26:20.:26:26.

deliver. But since a lot of our arts institutions exist because we, the

:26:26.:26:31.

taxpayer, subsidise them, it is quite hard for us to know which ones

:26:31.:26:35.

are really worthwhile, and which ones are not. Does every museum that

:26:35.:26:41.

we have at the moment have a right to exist in perpetuity? I would say

:26:41.:26:45.

two things - yes, of course, and it is investment, because it delivers

:26:45.:26:49.

back, is important. But the Government is not the biggest

:26:49.:26:55.

investor in the arts. Across the portfolio, 50% of the income comes

:26:55.:26:58.

from the public. The public are voting with their feet, they are the

:26:58.:27:03.

biggest investor in the arts. not by enough, according to some

:27:03.:27:08.

people, for these institutions to exist. When Shakespeare was writing

:27:08.:27:13.

his plays, he did not get a subsidy. Why does the royal chicks big

:27:13.:27:22.

company need one? He is the most famous playwright in the world! --

:27:22.:27:27.

the Royal Shakespeare Society. Would Say It Is About Leaving

:27:27.:27:34.

Support. We Know That 90% Of Charitable And Philanthropic Giving

:27:34.:27:37.

takes place in London. Outside London, you are at a disadvantage,

:27:37.:27:45.

absolutely. You have come to my next question - if that is the case, if

:27:45.:27:50.

the private money is overwhelmingly located here, where the real money

:27:50.:27:55.

is, why does the arts Council not spend more of its budget outside

:27:55.:28:02.

London? I think it tries to create a broad spread of funding, but a big

:28:02.:28:08.

chunk of our best art is in London, the highest profile... Why would

:28:08.:28:15.

that be? ! There is something around eight of creative artists here, and

:28:15.:28:25.
:28:25.:28:28.

that is changing. The BBC moving to, for instance. The Arts Council is

:28:28.:28:32.

investing outside of London, but of course, local authority investment

:28:32.:28:36.

is also very important. Local authorities have very few areas of

:28:36.:28:39.

discretionary spend, so they are having to make cuts in those areas

:28:39.:28:44.

where they do have that, which means arts and leisure. 17% on average has

:28:44.:28:54.
:28:54.:29:02.

been in local authorities. London got 47% of Arts Council funding.

:29:02.:29:06.

has probably got 47% of the organisations. The audiences are

:29:06.:29:10.

where the artists are. If the National Theatre performed in major

:29:10.:29:16.

to, would they not get an audience? If we had a real National Theatre,

:29:16.:29:19.

instead of spending millions on that ugly thing on the River Thames, it

:29:19.:29:24.

could be touring around the country. In Manchester, of course, you do

:29:24.:29:31.

have the Manchester International Festival, which is a brilliant

:29:31.:29:41.
:29:41.:29:42.

example of what you can do. What do you think? She makes a very eloquent

:29:43.:29:48.

arguments, but there are problems with them. Essentially, it is a

:29:49.:29:51.

Keynesian argument, but it means that you are competing with all

:29:51.:29:55.

sorts of other spending. There are lots of other areas which could have

:29:55.:30:02.

a higher multiplier, capital spending, and the rest. It cannot be

:30:02.:30:06.

the only argument. Your second argument, the cultural benefit, it

:30:06.:30:11.

makes the world a good place - if all of these things are true, it

:30:11.:30:13.

makes people vote, it makes them happy, it makes the world a better

:30:13.:30:22.

place, why do you not just put the faith in people, the electorate, the

:30:22.:30:25.

taxpayers, to go out and spend their own time doing these things which

:30:25.:30:35.
:30:35.:30:39.

are marked -- doing these things? I'm very much on Deborah's side.

:30:39.:30:46.

It's been cut a lot. It's been cut 30% already. On top of that, local

:30:46.:30:56.
:30:56.:30:57.

council, the funding of the arts has fallen a lot. The sort of values and

:30:57.:31:01.

gains that Deborah talked about aren't things you can achieve

:31:01.:31:06.

through - sorry, aren't things that you can measure in economic terms.

:31:06.:31:09.

People aren't going to pay and go to the theatre because it makes them

:31:09.:31:14.

more likely to vote. Why do we have the best theatre in the world? We

:31:14.:31:18.

have the National Theatre putting on fantastic productions, lots of which

:31:18.:31:23.

go on to the West End and make money and recoup money for the National

:31:23.:31:27.

Theatre. The National Theatre and the RSC provide a fantastic

:31:28.:31:31.

baseline. We will have to leave it there. You will keep campaigning?

:31:31.:31:39.

Certainly am. It can seem like a cross between a soap opera and a

:31:39.:31:44.

blood sport - not the Daily Politics - but when reality TV comes to

:31:44.:31:54.
:31:54.:31:57.

Westminster. Government reshuffles are fascinating, but do they aid or

:31:57.:32:00.

harm Government? According to the Political and Constitutional Reform

:32:00.:32:02.

Committee, it can lead to instability and paralysis. In a

:32:02.:32:12.
:32:12.:32:20.

moment, we will discuss that. # That's life

:32:20.:32:29.

# That's what all the people say # You're riding high in April

:32:29.:32:34.

# Shot down in May # But I know I'm going to change

:32:34.:32:44.
:32:44.:32:49.

that tune. E. # REPORTER: Is this your last Cabinet?

:32:49.:32:54.

# That's life. # As funny as it may seem

:32:54.:32:57.

# Some people get their kicks # Stopping on a dream

:32:57.:33:03.

# But I don't let it # Let it get me down

:33:03.:33:10.

# 'Cos this fine old world # It keeps spinning around. #

:33:10.:33:14.

Sad days, or happy days, depending on your view. Reshuffles, are they

:33:14.:33:20.

good or bad? Good, if used sparingly. Sometimes people don't

:33:20.:33:25.

perform as well as expected. It is good to get rid of them. It is good

:33:25.:33:29.

to get people a chance to get on. I like this idea of keeping Cabinet

:33:29.:33:32.

Ministers in their job for a full Parliament if possible. Someone like

:33:32.:33:36.

Iain Duncan Smith couldn't reform welfare and bring in universal

:33:36.:33:42.

credit if he was being moved on every two years. Mr Blair chopped

:33:42.:33:49.

and changed them a lot. Are they good or bad? They are great from a

:33:49.:33:55.

journalistic point of view. We all vote for them! Remember, David

:33:55.:34:01.

Cameron said he didn't want Government to be a demented branch

:34:01.:34:05.

of the entertainment industry. didn't work(!) They are probably

:34:05.:34:08.

good in principle. In practice, they are bad. They never go according to

:34:08.:34:16.

plan. We have to get to the answer to our quiz. What was Justice

:34:16.:34:19.

Secretary Chris Grayling like to do with ex-offenders? What was the

:34:19.:34:27.

answer? Work for the NHS. Pay back their board? No. Work for the NHS.

:34:27.:34:37.
:34:37.:34:39.

OK. It has just gone 12.30pm. It is time to say goodbye to our two

:34:39.:34:44.

guests of the day, Mary Ann Sieghart and James Kirkup. This week, Members

:34:44.:34:47.

of the European Parliament have been meeting in Strasbourg for their

:34:47.:34:57.
:34:57.:34:58.

regular Plenary Session. What have they been getting up to? Here is our

:34:58.:35:05.

guide in 60 seconds. MEPs have criticised a secret

:35:05.:35:10.

American programme to gather data called Prism. Parliament debated

:35:10.:35:16.

revelations that internet firms could be ordered to give access to

:35:16.:35:21.

data uploaded by foreign users. Amid protests in Turkey, MEPs voted on a

:35:21.:35:24.

resolution setting out their position on Turkey following a

:35:24.:35:30.

heated debate the day before. EU negotiators have been trying to win

:35:30.:35:35.

French support to green light trade talks with Washington. France's

:35:35.:35:40.

demanding to exempt its film industry from the talks.

:35:40.:35:45.

Negotiations on the EU's next budget are going to the wire after an extra

:35:45.:35:49.

round of talks was scheduled. MEPs are holding out for concessions. TV

:35:49.:35:53.

screens went black in Greece when the government abruptly shut down

:35:53.:35:58.

the state broadcaster, ERT, in the middle of the night. The government

:35:58.:36:06.

said it was to staunch a waste of taxpayers' money.

:36:06.:36:10.

With us for the next 30 minutes, I have been joined by the leader of

:36:10.:36:14.

the Conservatives in the European Parliament, Richard Ashworth, and by

:36:14.:36:19.

the UKIP MEP, Gerard Batten. Welcome. Let's take a look at one of

:36:19.:36:23.

those stories in more detail, the latest round of austerity cuts in

:36:23.:36:30.

Greece. It was interesting they pulled the plug on the Greek BBC, it

:36:30.:36:36.

isn't actually quite like, as the troika was arriving in Athens and as

:36:36.:36:41.

part of the privatisation programme had failed. It was symbolic? Greece

:36:41.:36:46.

is skint, as we all know. They have fantastic unemployment rates. It is

:36:47.:36:52.

around 27%. Youth unemployment is 62.5%. Ean European Single Currency

:36:52.:37:02.
:37:02.:37:10.

is one of the prime reasons why they are failing. What should happen now

:37:10.:37:17.

is, is the austerity working or isn't it? No. Who can survive? The

:37:18.:37:23.

only way they are going to solve their problems is to leave the

:37:23.:37:26.

European Single Currency and start some kind of economic revial. We

:37:26.:37:30.

know from the IMF report the only reason for the bail-out was to save

:37:30.:37:36.

the euro, not to save Greece. Greek economy's fallen by another 6%

:37:36.:37:41.

year on year. There was a feeling too that the worst had been over and

:37:41.:37:49.

that it was beginning to turn the corner. The failure of gas Prom to

:37:49.:37:54.

buy the energy company, switching off of the national broadcaster

:37:54.:38:04.
:38:04.:38:06.

suggests it ain't coming right? is a Honghe haul. It is about

:38:07.:38:11.

productivity and competitiveness. -- it is a long-haul. They have two

:38:11.:38:16.

choices. You can either spend five or ten years having jungle warfare

:38:16.:38:21.

with trade unions to cut costs, or you say shut it down, sort it out

:38:21.:38:25.

and open it up again. We have form in the United Kingdom where some

:38:25.:38:30.

newspapers have done that. Do you agree with him that Greece should

:38:30.:38:34.

just leave the euro? No, I don't think so. I think it is their

:38:34.:38:38.

choice, if they want to stay in. They have to understand what they

:38:38.:38:43.

are going to do to keep up with the pace. They are doing it. They need

:38:43.:38:53.
:38:53.:38:55.

to get rid of a whole raft of tU regulation. OK. Next week's G8

:38:55.:38:59.

Summit in Northern Ireland is meant to mark the start of a fresh round

:38:59.:39:04.

of EU-US trade negotiations which it is hoped will need to a new free

:39:04.:39:11.

trade agreement. 14 months of pre-talk preparation, it may be

:39:11.:39:15.

under threat if EU member states agree to fail their negotiating

:39:15.:39:20.

position on mandate. The members agree the position, then the EU

:39:20.:39:25.

negotiates on all of our behalves. What is the problem? The French.

:39:25.:39:31.

There is a surprise! Trade between the EU and the US is subject to

:39:31.:39:35.

relatively low tariffs. These trade talks could make tariffs lower or

:39:35.:39:40.

get rid of them altogether and they could tackle non-tariff barriers to

:39:40.:39:46.

trade, not prices, but things like technical regulations which hinder

:39:46.:39:56.
:39:56.:39:57.

exports. The talks could be derailed because France is insisting that

:39:57.:40:00.

they keep their exception culturelle. The trench position

:40:00.:40:10.

could stymie the trade talks. The usmt ambassador to the EU said: --

:40:10.:40:20.
:40:20.:40:25.

challenge any deal that affects French film, TV and music. It could

:40:25.:40:29.

be negotiated but the French could have a veto. That could irritate

:40:29.:40:34.

other member states as it breaks normal EU procedures over unanimity

:40:34.:40:39.

on these decisions going into the negotiations. The French, however,

:40:39.:40:42.

have thought long and hard. They are digging their heels in. They are

:40:42.:40:48.

asking for the issue to be totally off the table, not part of the

:40:48.:40:52.

negotiations at all. We can get the latest on this from our

:40:52.:40:56.

correspondent in Paris, Christian Fraser. No surprise that the French

:40:56.:41:03.

are taking this position. It's an historic one for them. So, will they

:41:03.:41:09.

- are they playing brinkmanship? Are they going to stick to this line?

:41:09.:41:14.

looks like they are playing brinkmanship. The French Trade

:41:14.:41:18.

Minister is saying that they want this taking off the table. They feel

:41:18.:41:22.

very passionately about their French TV and film industry. It is one of

:41:22.:41:26.

the biggest - it is the biggest in Europe. It is the third biggest in

:41:26.:41:31.

the world in terms of admissions and revenues that come in. If you go to

:41:31.:41:35.

the cinema, there is a levy on your ticket which is reinvested in the

:41:36.:41:39.

industry. There are incentives for people who invest in the industry.

:41:39.:41:47.

They had a record number of films in 2010, over 200 films made. They see

:41:47.:41:56.

it as the bull walk against it. The figures involved are quite

:41:56.:42:00.

staggering. This would liberalise a third of world trade. Obviously, it

:42:00.:42:04.

would be hugely important to French agriculture and to French business

:42:04.:42:08.

at a time when there is high unemployment in France and President

:42:08.:42:13.

Hollande is trying to reverse the curve at the moment and to get

:42:13.:42:16.

unemployment coming down. So, he is playing high stakes. The French -

:42:16.:42:21.

the British and the German positions is this: If you start sending down

:42:21.:42:25.

red lines before the talks have begun, the sceptics in the United

:42:25.:42:30.

States will start carving out their position. We might have red lines on

:42:30.:42:35.

Californian champagne. They really want to go with open palms and say,

:42:35.:42:39.

"Let's start afresh and get on with it." The window is quite small. The

:42:39.:42:44.

compromise is this: They will go with an open book and when they get

:42:44.:42:48.

to audio and visual, they will come back to the French. They will have

:42:48.:42:52.

an unprecedented say on whether to approve it or not. They are hoping

:42:52.:43:01.

that that fudge will see them through. OK. Thank you. The French

:43:01.:43:05.

could stop this trade deal from taking place? They can slow it down.

:43:05.:43:12.

I think that is the important point. This trade deal is ambitious, it's

:43:12.:43:19.

over 30% of global trade. They need jobs and growth. The prize is great.

:43:19.:43:23.

We can't go into the negotiations on the other hand with preconditions.

:43:23.:43:29.

So, while we set a very ambitious timescale to get it done within two

:43:29.:43:34.

years, I think before we go to the negotiations we have to get this

:43:34.:43:38.

sorted. If it means delaying the start, I would tell the Commission

:43:38.:43:42.

to hold it back, sort this issue about audio and visual problems...

:43:42.:43:47.

How would you sort it? The French do dig their heels in. Mr Hollande is

:43:47.:43:53.

not the most secure or powerful French President in recent years.

:43:53.:43:56.

He's a Socialist. Most of the French art world is on the left. Is he

:43:56.:44:01.

going to take on his own constituency? This is old-fashioned

:44:01.:44:06.

protectionism in its most naked form. This is what free trade deals

:44:06.:44:10.

are all about. If we can't overcome this, we are lumbered with this for

:44:10.:44:15.

a long time to come. Can I point out that Washington, which is in the

:44:15.:44:20.

middle of a pivot to the Pacific, they have other trade deals to do.

:44:20.:44:26.

Of course, Washington would love to do a deal with the EU. There are 22

:44:26.:44:30.

outstanding deals waiting to be done rather quickly on the Pacific with

:44:30.:44:36.

other countries. If Europe is held up, because they want the frepb -

:44:36.:44:43.

the French want to continue to subsidise their movies, the US will

:44:43.:44:49.

say, we are off to the other side of the world. This will be the biggest

:44:49.:44:55.

trade deal ever done in the world. With no WTO deal on the table...

:44:55.:45:05.
:45:05.:45:05.

Which fell apart. This sets the opportunity for the EU-US to set the

:45:05.:45:14.

Gold Standard for everyone to comply with. This is an open goal for him.

:45:14.:45:18.

This shows the nonsense of having our trade policy decided by the EU.

:45:18.:45:23.

I knew you were going to say that. We should be deciding our own deal.

:45:23.:45:30.

I always admire the French, and French culture. But they always

:45:30.:45:36.

expect somebody else to pay for it. We pay for the French farmers,

:45:36.:45:39.

through the Common Agricultural Policy, but it is the same kind of

:45:39.:45:42.

thing. I do not see why some of my constituents, some of the poorest

:45:42.:45:46.

people in the country, should be subsidising French farmers. And now

:45:46.:45:52.

we have this. His position is that if we were not in Europe, the United

:45:52.:45:57.

Kingdom could go and do a fantastic trade deal with America, like that,

:45:57.:46:02.

because we do not care about protecting our movies! We watch all

:46:02.:46:08.

their films, anyway! No disrespect to Iceland or Switzerland, but they

:46:08.:46:13.

have not got the kind of clout which 27 European nations have. If you are

:46:13.:46:18.

not at the table at this deal, which Britain would not be... Local but

:46:18.:46:25.

his point is, we could do our own. I know you could, but only after the

:46:25.:46:28.

US has done a deal with 27 other nations. That would set the rules.

:46:28.:46:32.

We need to be at the table setting those rules. These are the rules

:46:32.:46:38.

that China, Russia and all of the others will be following. Leading?

:46:38.:46:43.

America has done bilateral deals with a number of Asian economies.

:46:43.:46:45.

Britain is the biggest foreign direct investor in the United

:46:45.:46:51.

States, and vice versa. So, we have a huge community of interest - why

:46:51.:47:01.
:47:01.:47:01.

could we not do a UK-US deal on our own? Because this deal, which will

:47:01.:47:05.

set up the world's largest trade zone, is a fantastic opportunity,

:47:06.:47:10.

and we need to be at the top table, setting the rules. We will not be

:47:10.:47:16.

setting the rules. We would set our rules to suit a UK-US arrangement. I

:47:16.:47:20.

am not saying it is right or wrong, I am just asking, why could we not

:47:20.:47:25.

do that? I am not saying you couldn't. You probably could. But

:47:25.:47:31.

you would not get priority. The US is going to get far greater priority

:47:31.:47:36.

for doing a deal with 27 nations in Europe we shall we speak the same

:47:36.:47:39.

line which, we have a very similar legal system, very similar company

:47:39.:47:49.
:47:49.:47:51.

law and all the rest of it. It would be much easier. And we have not even

:47:51.:47:56.

heard from the French farmers yet. Wait till they hear about the cheap

:47:56.:48:06.
:48:06.:48:07.

wheat production in Iowa! Jo Coburn has been to Strasbourg. European

:48:07.:48:17.

elections are famously low-key affairs. They usually have dismal

:48:17.:48:21.

turnouts, but that might be about to change. An obscure paragraph in the

:48:21.:48:24.

Lisbon Treaty means next year's election results will effectively

:48:24.:48:29.

date take whether the next commission president is from the

:48:29.:48:33.

centre or centre-left politics. The treaty states that although heads of

:48:33.:48:35.

governments will propose the successor, they must do so taking

:48:35.:48:41.

into account the elections to the European Parliament. The new

:48:41.:48:45.

Commission head shall be elected to the European Parliament by a

:48:45.:48:50.

majority of its members. This could lead to a fundamental shift of power

:48:50.:48:55.

in the European institutions. next European elections will open a

:48:55.:49:02.

new chapter, because in fact, the citizens will directly influence who

:49:02.:49:08.

is the boss of the European executive, by their vote, more or

:49:08.:49:11.

less, they will be determining who gets a majority in the chamber, and

:49:11.:49:17.

the majority here in the Houses of Parliament will decide who is the

:49:17.:49:22.

president of the European and. the first time, party activists

:49:22.:49:26.

across Europe will play a role in choosing the figurehead. And what's

:49:26.:49:31.

more, Labour Party members in Britain will have a say in who the

:49:31.:49:41.
:49:41.:49:42.

centre-left's champion will be. Labourer invests, Labour Party

:49:42.:49:46.

delegates among the European socialist, in spring next year, they

:49:46.:49:52.

will be part of the process, they will influence and decide which one

:49:52.:50:01.

they like most, and I think that is a good, and aquatic procedure.

:50:01.:50:05.

British Conservatives on the other hand will find themselves on the

:50:05.:50:08.

outside looking in. David Cameron's decision to pull his party out of

:50:08.:50:14.

the influential pro-European EEP grouping back in 2009 means British

:50:14.:50:17.

Conservatives will be excluded from the selection of the centre-right

:50:17.:50:26.

candidate. Prime Minister Cameron will have no role, because he will

:50:26.:50:33.

be isolated in the Council decision. Especially in the EPB, they will

:50:33.:50:37.

decide and they will vote for this candidate, but unfortunately, the

:50:37.:50:41.

Conservatives will not be there, and they were just have too accept what

:50:41.:50:48.

the others have decided. Four years, this institution has been derided by

:50:48.:50:52.

critics as something of a toytown parliament, but now, it will be

:50:52.:50:58.

invested with proper power, and its voters really will decide who runs

:50:58.:51:03.

Europe. So, tell me, Graham Watson, do you think the European parties

:51:03.:51:12.

will agree... ? I am sorry, we have got Graham Watson, the Liberal

:51:12.:51:16.

Democrat MEP, joining us from Brussels. Have we got you? I am

:51:16.:51:22.

going to come to you first, sorry for that - do you think that the

:51:22.:51:24.

European parties will agree a candidate for the European

:51:24.:51:30.

Commission president next year? Certainly. I am the president of the

:51:30.:51:34.

European Liberal Democrats pan-European political party. We

:51:34.:51:37.

agreed four weeks ago the timescale and the procedure for this election

:51:37.:51:42.

of a Liberal candidate for the presidency of the Commission. I know

:51:42.:51:46.

from discussions with my counterparts, the European

:51:46.:51:50.

Socialists and the European People's party, that they also have agreed

:51:50.:51:57.

their procedures. This will go ahead towards the end of the year. We all

:51:57.:52:00.

expect to have special electoral congresses in early February of next

:52:00.:52:07.

year, where the candidates will be voted on. Richard as Croft - what do

:52:07.:52:11.

you make of this? We have to remember that the commission, at the

:52:11.:52:15.

end of the day, is the civil service, albeit a very powerful

:52:15.:52:19.

civil service. I do not know anywhere in the world where you have

:52:19.:52:22.

an elected civil service. Heaven forbid that you have somebody

:52:22.:52:28.

running a civil servants in this way. It is actually the MEPs and the

:52:28.:52:34.

Council, the 27 heads of government, they call the shots. Let me go

:52:34.:52:40.

straight back to you, Graham Watson - how do you reply to that? I am

:52:40.:52:44.

very surprised that Richard Ashworth says that, because President Obama

:52:44.:52:48.

is the head of a civil servants. He is not a member of Congress or a

:52:48.:52:52.

member of the Senate, he is a member of and the leader of, the civil

:52:52.:52:59.

service, in the same way that Jose Manuel Barroso is currently the head

:52:59.:53:02.

of the European civil service. It strikes me that this would bring

:53:02.:53:08.

Europe far closer to the people, if they were able to elect that person.

:53:08.:53:11.

This is another small step on the way to a United States of Europe. It

:53:11.:53:16.

has been mooted in the past that there should be direct elections for

:53:16.:53:18.

the president of the European Union, and it is a small step in that

:53:18.:53:25.

direction. What will be interesting, when the MEPs get to vote next time,

:53:25.:53:31.

is that the balance of the European Parliament could change. Not just in

:53:31.:53:34.

the UK are we expecting to do extremely well, but there are more

:53:34.:53:40.

anti TEU parties springing up. I think the new president could

:53:40.:53:48.

reflect that new balance. -- anti-Mac EU. After all, most of us

:53:48.:53:57.

would have no idea who most of the candidates were... As you know,

:53:57.:54:03.

because you were there at the launch of the Reuters study of the TV

:54:03.:54:07.

debates after the last election in the UK, over half of the people who

:54:07.:54:10.

watched those debates said it helps them to make up their mind which way

:54:10.:54:13.

they were going to vote. Three quarters of them said that they

:54:13.:54:17.

learned something they did not know, and more than nine out of ten who

:54:17.:54:21.

watched those leader Pol Pot debates actually went away and talked about

:54:21.:54:30.

it afterwards. -- leaders' debates. We did not know who the three

:54:30.:54:34.

debaters were, and we will have no idea who the chap from Italy is, or

:54:34.:54:38.

the chap from Spain, or the candidate from Hungary. You do not

:54:38.:54:43.

know that. It may well be that the political parties choose people who

:54:43.:54:48.

have been Prime Minister Des of their countries before that and are

:54:48.:54:51.

quite well-known at a European level. They might choose people who

:54:51.:54:54.

are senior members of the European Commission. Who is the current Prime

:54:54.:55:02.

Minister of Italy? It is... That is correct. He is a former member of

:55:03.:55:07.

the European Parliament. I think you are in the 0.1% of people who would

:55:07.:55:17.
:55:17.:55:19.

know that. Well done! This is moving in the wrong direction. It is

:55:19.:55:22.

investing more power in the commission, more power in the

:55:22.:55:26.

European Union. Actually, I think voters will respond to seeing more

:55:26.:55:31.

power with member state governments. We want to see more

:55:31.:55:38.

involvement with member state governments. The best-known

:55:38.:55:44.

politician across Europe is Nigel Farage, but I do not know... !

:55:44.:55:49.

you name... ? We have not got time. Congratulations for knowing the

:55:49.:55:53.

Italian Prime Minister. We will ask you again in six months, when it has

:55:53.:55:58.

probably changed. It is a plum job, but you have trouble be never heard

:55:58.:56:08.
:56:08.:56:10.

of it, so what is so appealing about the role of rapporteur in the

:56:10.:56:14.

European Parliament? There is the latest installation of our guide to

:56:14.:56:24.
:56:24.:56:37.

Labour's Glenis Willmott is doing what every European official dreams

:56:37.:56:42.

of. She is a rapporteur. They have written some new legislation

:56:42.:56:46.

concerning clinical drugs trials. The draft law then comes here to the

:56:46.:56:49.

European Parliament, where it is sent to the MEPs on the public of

:56:49.:56:55.

committee. And that is where Glenis comes in. As a mpg, it is her job to

:56:55.:56:58.

formulate the committee's responds to the legislation. -- as a

:56:58.:57:05.

rapporteur. You make sure you know the subject, you make sure you meet

:57:05.:57:08.

all of the stakeholders involved, whoever has an interest in that

:57:08.:57:12.

particular report. You will meet with all of them and make sure that

:57:12.:57:16.

you hear all of their views, and then, you have to decide, with

:57:16.:57:25.

technical and legal support, where you want the report to go. It is a

:57:25.:57:28.

huge amount of extra work for me, and the people who work with me. But

:57:28.:57:33.

it is worth it, because you really can make a difference. Do you get

:57:33.:57:39.

paid any extra money? Absolutely not. Everybody in the European

:57:39.:57:42.

Parliament gets paid exactly the same. It is not like Westminster,

:57:42.:57:46.

where you have ministers on a higher salary. Uncle after all of that

:57:46.:57:50.

work, the committee presents its reports to the whole of the European

:57:50.:57:53.

report -- to the whole of the European Parliament for a final

:57:53.:58:00.

vote. There is one of the most famous rapporteurs of all, a young

:58:00.:58:05.

Nick Clegg. More than a decade ago, he brought a law on addition in the

:58:05.:58:11.

telecoms set to get through in record time. There is intense

:58:11.:58:15.

competition between the different political groups to secure roles

:58:15.:58:20.

like the one Glenis have. It is an influential job, and one which just

:58:20.:58:23.

does not have an equivalent in the UK political system. Appear on the

:58:23.:58:28.

12th floor, Glenis is part Minister, part select committee chair, part

:58:28.:58:38.

legislative fixer. You have been a temp icky, would you like to be one?

:58:38.:58:47.

Yup it is part of our policy not to do it. They are being paid an extra

:58:47.:58:51.

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