17/06/2013 Daily Politics


17/06/2013

Jo Coburn discusses the G8 Summit, climate change, and unpaid internships. She's joined by guest-of-the-day Julie Meyer, the "Dragon's Den Online" entrepreneur.


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Politics. On a day when the world's leaders have come to Northern

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Ireland, it is the start of the G8 conference in Lough Erne and it has

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started with a little political stardust. But warm words aside, the

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conference agenda will be tough, with the leaders far from agreed on

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what to do about the civil war in Syria. We'll have all the latest.

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Plus, Labour sets out its plans for schools, extending some of the

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freedoms enjoyed by academies to all. But do plans to sack

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unqualified teachers fall foul of employment law? And former minister

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Hazel Blears tells us its time to start paying our interns. All that

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in the next hour, and our special guest today is the investor and

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entrepreneur Julie Meyer of Ariadne Capital. Let's start with the

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Co-op's troubled banking division. The news today is that there's been

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a deal with the regulators to try and plug a 1.5 billion pound

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shortfall in its balance sheet. Is it a good deal, Julie? It is

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interesting how they got to where they are and how they will get out,

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two separate issues. My perspective would be looking at the rise of new

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lenders, like Soper. What happens to the Co-op bank I think has less of

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an impact on overall the economy and the financing of small businesses

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than some of the new funders. that because we are still living in

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an age where banks like the Co-op are still teetering on the edge?

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People will find it difficult to hear the news that the Co-op needed

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that amount of money? The banks would probably argue that they are

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being given mixed messages about whether they should prepare their

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balances or keep lending. A new banking system is emerging.

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Unregulated? You have to be regulated, and so do the crowd

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lenders, so they are dilated but much less so, but the interesting

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thing is how much they are growing. People may think this is for the

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doctors and dentists of the world, this is becoming a mass phenomenon.

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Does it need to be regulated? If you look at the issue of the Co-op, it

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is a big test for the regulator, will the regulator turn its

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attention to the phenomenon you are talking about? Who guard the

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guardians? Do we trust people to be honest? No, and there is something

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to be said for new light structures, lean technology,

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efficient structures and some new institutions giving broader

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competition. Are we seeing green shoots in the economy? Yes, it is a

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fantastic time to be an investor, but the economy feels uneven. It is

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:04:16.:04:16.

not just the high-growth start-ups, we work with corporate is trying to

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find a system to create high-growth but I feel the economy is very

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uneven with people embracing this massive digital transformation in

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society, and some people, sometimes the heads of large culprits, who

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believe they can choose the moment at which they engage. Spend their

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money, you mean? Know, maybe they are sitting on a large amount of

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cash, but technology advances not just because large corporate

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boardrooms decide it is going to advance at a certain pace or not. It

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has its own natural momentum. Now it's time for our daily quiz.

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And the think tank Policy Exchange has suggested building new super

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prisons and doing away with establishments like Holloway and

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Wormwood Scrubs. But what does it want to do with the old buildings?

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Is it to use them as army barracks? Turn them into boutique hotels?

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Replace them with supermarkets? Or create inner city farms? At the end

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of the show we will give you the correct answer. The 39th summit of

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the G8, hosted by the UK in Lough Erne is in full swing today. The

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great and the good have clamoured to a quiet corner of Northern Ireland

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to thrash out the big issues of the day. Joining the Prime Minister

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David Cameron for a high level pow-wow are Presidents Obama, Putin

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and Hollande, Mrs Merkel, Canada's Stephen Harper, Italy's Prime

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Minister Enrico Letta and Japan's Shinzo Abe. The G8 summit's agenda

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has been carefully created by the Prime Minister to encompass three Ts

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- tax, transparency and trade. With his main focus on setting global

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rules to share tax information and cracking down on tax dodgers. But it

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seems Syria will be dominating the conversation with high level

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meetings expected between the UK, US and Russia. With such a packed

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agenda, is it any wonder that the wives and Mr Merkel are not

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attending? Mrs Obama is in town for the G8 but she's been sent to Dublin

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to watch Riverdance. Well, earlier today, President Obama arrived in

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Belfast for the G8 Summit, and he took some time out to talk to young

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people about future hopes for Northern Ireland. Here in Northern

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Ireland, this generation has known even more rapid change than many

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young people have seen around the world. And while you had unique

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challenges of your own, you also have unique reasons to be hopeful,

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for you are the first generation in this land to inherit more than just

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the hardened attitudes and the bitter prejudices of the past. You

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are an inheritor of a just and hard earned peace. You now live in a

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thoroughly modern Northern Ireland. Of course the recessions that have

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spread through nearly every country have inflicted hardships here as

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well, but day-to-day life is changing throughout the North. There

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was a time people couldn't have imagined Northern Ireland hosting a

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gathering of world leaders as you are today. And our chief political

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correspondent Norman Smith joins us now from the G8 Summit. President

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Obama talking about a transformed Northern Ireland, but of course it

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is a conflict in the Middle East that will dominate the talks today,

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and as it stands they couldn't be further apart, Russia, the UK and

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the US? Yes, there is no disguising the yawning divide of Russia and

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everyone else here. Canada's Prime Minister described the summit as the

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G-7, plus one. That said, I don't think there is any sign of President

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Putin giving in, he doesn't seem to change his position easily and he is

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utterly convinced of his stance which means what we are going to see

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from President Obama and the Prime Minister is trying to sketch out a

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longer argument which is to say that if nothing is done, then the danger

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is that in time President Assad will be removed and replaced by an

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extreme Islamist regime which will not only be to the disadvantage of

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the West but also to Russia because the last thing Russia wants in its

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sphere of influence is a fundamentalist regime. The hope is

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that in time that may begin to chip away at President Putin's

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resistance. What might make that more difficult is America's decision

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to arm the rebels in Syria. Is there an expectation now from the Obama

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Administration that somehow the UK will follow suit in terms of arming

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rebels? Whatever the expectation in the United States, I think the blunt

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reality is there will be no arming of the rebels in the near future by

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Britain and the simple reason for that is Parliament and public

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opinion. If you look at the Parliamentary arithmetic, there is

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no way David Cameron could win a vote. Iraq casts a very long

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shadow, which is why Downing Street are trying to recalibrate this whole

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argument to say it is not just about supplying arms to the rebels, this

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is about a broader geopolitical struggle is similar to Afghanistan

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and North Africa, about confronting Islamists who pose a fundamental

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challenge to Western values. In other words it is a longer campaign

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which is William Hague said this morning could go on for years. In

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the near future I think there is no prospect of us offering arms which

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is why David Cameron and William Hague have been stressing non-lethal

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assistance. The stressing is on non-lethal assistance such as

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armoured cars and night vision goggles. And the Conservative MP who

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chairs the Foreign Affairs Select Committee, Richard Ottaway, is here

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now. Do you agree with that assessment that there is no chance

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of any sort of decision being made by the Government to arm rebels in

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Syria? I think it is pretty unlikely, Norman Smith's assessment

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is pretty accurate. I would like to see a discussion, but actually what

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is going to be proposed is critical here. If we are talking about

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continuing support with non-lethal equipment perhaps, I'm sure people

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will support it. The line that I think most of my colleagues in

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parliament would be reluctant across is physically arming and providing

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lethal equipment. Are you in favour of arming rebels with lethal weapons

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or not? I want to see the proposal before I make up my mind. If there

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is a sensible proposal that could bring this conflict to a closure and

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get the sort of pressure on President Putin that Norman Smith

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was talking about, then I think that is worthy of consideration. It would

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never pass a vote, would it? We have heard from Tory backbenchers and the

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Mayor of London saying that arming the rebels would be disastrous

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because Britain would be pressing weapons into the hands of maniacs.

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think giving a few cases of rifles to the rebels would be a mistake and

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I wouldn't support it, but if their work to be a sophisticated approach

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combined with a diplomatic effort, I think that effort could be supported

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by some sort of pressure. Russian president was pretty angry,

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I was surprised by the language he used saying Britain was in danger of

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supporting rebels even with their non-lethal assistance, who killed

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their enemies and eat their organs. It doesn't sound like there will be

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any meeting of minds. I think it is a mistake for him to use an isolated

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incident and use it as the basis of a decision that will affect millions

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of people. This is a serious civil war that could affect the security

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of the Western world. What about America's position here? What is

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public opinion about arming Syrian rebels and getting involved in a

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conflict? Let's face it, Americans, when they are told they are going to

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war by their president they get behind it, but I think we need to

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change the rules of the game. We are on the side of freedom and we

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believe that, and that is why America and Britain get behind when

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there is a call to go to war. One of the told stories about Libya is how

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technology played a major role. Why don't we arm everyone, the good and

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the bad, with the communications ability to tell their story to

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world. Let them get their story out there about the ideals they are

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fighting force because frankly I'm not sure the average American knows.

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We need the case for what they are fighting for, the principles of that

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course, and that is what is being lost and that is why nobody can

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really determine whether this is good or bad because nobody really

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understands what it is we could be fighting for. Isn't that the worry,

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we don't know who the good guys are here. The Syrian Government not, in

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the terms that have been framed by the British Government, but who are

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these rebels? You are quite right to ask the question, who are the good

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guys, I don't think there are any at the moment. We are seeing a conflict

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between Russia, Iran, Hezbollah in Lebanon on one side supporting the

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regime, on the other side you've got the Qataries, the Saudis, Turkey,

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supporting the rebels, and now the United States. And this is one hell

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of a mess at the moment. Is Assad winning? Those were the reports

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coming out now, and the reason I suggest that we are hearing more

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desperate rhetoric, if you like, from people like William Hague,

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saying the UK Government wants to ensure the opposition in Syria is

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not exterminated before a political settlement can be reached, is that

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because Assad is winning? He's certainly on top at the moment,

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controlling all the major cities bar one. The rebels are in the

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countryside and though they have room to manoeuvre, it's hard to say

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they are not in control. What about Bosnia? That will evoke strong

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emotion. Tony Blair, if you remember, he counted the then

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American President, Bill Clinton, and led forces to go into, or

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intervention in the form of airstrikes, into Bosnia. Are you

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worried about those comparisons coming true in Syria? There's an

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important distinction with Bosnia. Bosnia was an oppressed regime with

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an oppressed government taking part in ethnic cleansing. Here, we have a

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Civil War and we are basically taking sides. Whether or not that is

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the right thing, only history will tell us.

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All right. Now, the shipping forecast. There

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are places that have hosted meetings of the G8 or the G7 or the G 6 when

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the group was a bit smaller. Now we can add the name Lokeren to the

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list. -- Lough Erne to the list. Do the summits ever make the list?

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Think of it as a romantic mini break, albeit one that costs �50

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million to stage, with hundreds of journalists and 8,000 police

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officers there too. Much is agreed in advance. David

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Cameron's already dropped in on most of his fellow leaders and,

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behind-the-scenes, diplomats called Sherpas have painstakingly got

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consensus. Do you recall what was agreed around

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the table by the bejumpered leaders at last year's meeting in Camp

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David, what was in the communique issued in the French resort of

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Deauville in 201 1? And remind me what the talks were about beside the

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like in Canada three years ago. Sometimes a G8 really does stick in

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the memory though, like the last time Britain hosted the gathering in

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2005 at Gleneagles in Scotland. Or maybe it was the celebrity studded

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Make Poverty History campaign that captured the public imagination,

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rather than the pledges on aid, and climate change. Many agree the real

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action is now at the much larger meetings of the G20. After all, can

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you really address the world's problems if you don't include the

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leaders of countries like China and India? Richard Ottaway, what is the

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point of the G8 if you haven't got people like China? Well, you've got

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most of the key players. I agree, there are difficulties if China are

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not there. There is an opportunity for politicians to engage on an

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agenda they know is coming and to come up with constructive solutions.

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What can you remember which was significant, the other question

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posed in the film about G8s? Out of that sum my opinion, the Deauville

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partnership providing aid for the countries in transitioning in the

:18:30.:18:33.

Arab uprising. I'm pleased to say, it's back on the agenda again I

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think here in Northern Ireland this year. From a business perspective,

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do you think it achieves anything? Are the summits worthwhile? I'm not

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convinced. We need to take it to the level which is higher. You mentioned

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transparency as well. What I would love to see coming out is, at least

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can we get all parties to agree a level of transparency, openness and

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freedom, even if it sounds idealistic, how can anybody say

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that's not a good idea, because then we can start to measure regimes or

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Governments by the level of freedom, transparency, openness and then we

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can start to say who's a good guy and bad guy. At a minimum, it's just

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tit-for-tat without going into a gran lard level of let's be

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specific, or taking it up a notch and saying, what are we trying to

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achieve at a principal level. I don't pay attention to it, I admit.

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If people like Julie aren't Faying attention to it and we are talking

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about leaders in the would of dis-- paying attention. What is the point?

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As a cynical politician, there are people out there who like failure,

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who want things to fail and are fighting for failure and therein

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lies the clash between pragmatism and idealism. You are talking about

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people fighting for failure. Are the right countries involved? Do we want

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to hear what Italy is saying at the high level summits? Well, no,

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there's the G20, a bigger grouping. These are the key players running in

:20:02.:20:05.

the major economies of the the world and they know what is going on.

:20:06.:20:11.

they solve the big global economic problems? Let's talk about an issue

:20:11.:20:21.
:20:21.:20:26.

that David Cameron has been taketh talking about? The economy? Yes, a

:20:26.:20:30.

commentary piece was in the newspaper today saying everybody

:20:30.:20:34.

wants companies like Google to come that their economy. The bigger issue

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is the contribution that we ask of people who're part of our society,

:20:37.:20:42.

whether it's a Google, whether it's an... What sort of contribution

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though? You are talking about paying their taxes? A bigger contribution.

:20:47.:20:50.

American corporate tax is high, that's why the technology firms keep

:20:50.:20:55.

a lot of cash you've shore and end up buying technology which is fine.

:20:55.:20:59.

There's so much more they could do with the billions kept offshore and

:20:59.:21:03.

I wonder whether or not we give the large US companies a very long lust

:21:03.:21:09.

of things they could do for us. They could support our schools,

:21:09.:21:12.

scholarship programmes, venture capital, all sorts of things. Do we

:21:12.:21:17.

let them know what being a good corporate citizen is? Do we worship

:21:17.:21:23.

them and let them do a bit of tax and we think they are wonderful

:21:23.:21:25.

you think David Cameron's right? don't know, because I don't know

:21:25.:21:29.

what is being requested, but I believe that we should expect a lot

:21:29.:21:32.

out of people. I felt that expectation when I came to this

:21:32.:21:37.

country. Yes. I mean hopefully we'll get a out outcome over tax,

:21:37.:21:44.

transparency. What do you want to see as a good outcome? The overseas

:21:44.:21:46.

territories agreeing that they'll publish all the people operating in

:21:46.:21:52.

those countries. Yes. But will they? Asking is one thing, agreeing it and

:21:53.:21:56.

being put into practice, do you think it will happen? Jo, what the

:21:56.:22:00.

G8 does is focuses minds. It's a point in the calendar that says, we

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are having a decision on this, and look at the pressure that's been put

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on the OTs in the last week and they've fallen into the line. That

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is what international diplomacy, what international efforts are all

:22:10.:22:13.

about and that's what the G8 will achieve.

:22:13.:22:18.

Richard, thank you. Writing ahead of the G8 conference,

:22:18.:22:21.

French President, Francois Hollande, stressed that there can be no growth

:22:21.:22:26.

or development that is not sustainable. And, that the G8 must

:22:26.:22:31.

do its part to curb carbon emissions. Joining me ahead of the

:22:31.:22:34.

key vote in the European Parliament's Environment Committee

:22:34.:22:37.

on Wednesday on the flagship Emissions Trading Scheme is the EU

:22:37.:22:42.

commissioner for climate action, Connie Hedagardt. Welcome to the

:22:42.:22:46.

programme. Before that issue, G8 leaders, as we have been discussing,

:22:46.:22:50.

are at Northern Ireland today and tomorrow discuss trade, tax and

:22:50.:22:55.

transparency. Climate change isn't on the official agenda. Why not?

:22:55.:23:02.

Well, you must ask the G8 President about that, but it's in the

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preparatory work. President Hollande sent a very strong call that don't

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forget also when you are talking about the longer term, that climate

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change is one of the overarching challenges you have to deal with

:23:14.:23:18.

also economically. It's very port. Do you think it's slipping down the

:23:18.:23:22.

global agenda? No, I don't think so. I think that

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it's simply because there are other areas coming up also that we all

:23:27.:23:31.

understand why they are busy handling the economic issues. I

:23:31.:23:35.

think the economic community, the leaders of the world need to

:23:35.:23:40.

understand what the World Bank has said, the IMF has said, the OECD has

:23:40.:23:45.

said, that dealing with climate change is not an viement issue, only

:23:45.:23:48.

it's very much something you should do in order to prepare your economy

:23:48.:23:52.

for the future. That should be a very clear message also to the G8.

:23:52.:23:57.

Except that the Emissions Trading System, which is the EU flagship

:23:57.:24:03.

environment policy for reducing carbon dioxide emissions is in

:24:03.:24:08.

disarray. I spoke to people in Strasbourg who said this policy is

:24:08.:24:12.

now dead, environmentalists, because the price of carbon is so low and

:24:12.:24:17.

attempts to intervene in the market have failed. Is it dead?

:24:17.:24:23.

It's not dead. But it needs some life support. That is the

:24:23.:24:31.

possibility that the European Parliament airians have once again

:24:31.:24:33.

been talking about. The Environment Committee of the Members of

:24:33.:24:38.

Parliament two days from now. I can only encourage everybody to ups that

:24:38.:24:43.

all kinds of alternatives to having a market-based system where you put

:24:43.:24:50.

a price on carbon, all the other alternatives. By the way, the

:24:50.:24:53.

automotive industry too. It's not that wow, how nice it is that it

:24:53.:24:58.

costs nothing to pollute. The alternative is, you get a fragmented

:24:58.:25:02.

patchwork of 27 different countries doing things. I hope the

:25:02.:25:05.

Parliamentarians this time will get their act together, including, by

:25:05.:25:10.

the way, also some of the British Conservatives who voted no the last

:25:10.:25:15.

time. I hope they can now endorse the compromise that the Environment

:25:15.:25:19.

Committee chair has put together. But realistically, it's not going to

:25:19.:25:24.

happen. Who is going to change their minds? I mean, they sounded pretty

:25:24.:25:27.

entrenched when you spoke to some of the Conservative mens, some of the

:25:27.:25:33.

businesses as well who were lobbying mens who've said that the European

:25:33.:25:37.

institution shouldn't be interfering in a market based system. Either

:25:37.:25:41.

they don't interfere or the system goes down?

:25:41.:25:45.

I think the listeners can imagine what would have happened if

:25:45.:25:49.

everybody had said in the midst of the crisis, we don't interfere with

:25:49.:25:52.

the banks because they are they are market based. There are so many

:25:52.:25:56.

extraordinary things we have had to do because of the economic crisis

:25:56.:26:00.

that I say that people will understand that we must also do

:26:01.:26:07.

something when the price to pollute has come down to almost nothing.

:26:07.:26:11.

It's an obstacle for the innovation that we need in Europe, it's an

:26:11.:26:15.

obstacle for the energy efficiency and resource efficiency that we so

:26:15.:26:20.

much need in Europe. And what should make them change their mind compare

:26:20.:26:24.

toed the former vote? -- compared to the former vote? People have

:26:24.:26:27.

realised that when we in the commission said, please get this

:26:27.:26:32.

right or else you risk the price coming too close to 0, then I think

:26:32.:26:35.

many have said wow, that was almost happening after the first vote in

:26:35.:26:39.

Parliament. So they can see that now it's serious, they had to make up

:26:39.:26:43.

their mind, do they want to keep this market based system or do they

:26:43.:26:48.

want a patchwork and fragmented way forward and therefore I believe that

:26:48.:26:52.

they will get it right later this week, I very much hope so and I

:26:52.:26:57.

would very much encourage that. you are discussing the issue of the

:26:57.:27:00.

Emissions Trading System, energy prices, fuel prices continue to go

:27:00.:27:04.

up? What do you say to the people of Europe? That's what they are

:27:04.:27:07.

interested in, they are not particularly interested, I suggest,

:27:07.:27:12.

in a system that they don't have any relationship to. They want to know

:27:12.:27:16.

if energy prices will come down? very much understand that people are

:27:16.:27:21.

concerned about high energy praises, but if we get it right with this cap

:27:21.:27:26.

on trading, the prices will come back to where they were last fall.

:27:26.:27:30.

That's what we are talking about. What we need in order for each of us

:27:30.:27:35.

to save money on our energy bill, that is more energy efficiency, that

:27:35.:27:39.

is more new technologies. I think that most people realise that in a

:27:39.:27:43.

world where still more people want a share in the good life, the demand

:27:43.:27:47.

for energy, goods, commodities, will only increase, so if in Europe we

:27:48.:27:53.

want to create more jobs and improve our competitiveness, it's a very big

:27:53.:27:57.

advantage to become much more energy efficient, much more resource

:27:57.:28:02.

efficient and that is what can be helped if we get it right with the

:28:02.:28:04.

backlogging and the vote later this week.

:28:05.:28:09.

What was your reaction then to the bid to include a target to decooer

:28:09.:28:15.

Bonnise the UK's electricity generation by 2030 which was

:28:15.:28:17.

narrowly defeated in Parliament because the Chancellor insisted a

:28:17.:28:23.

decision on that target should be delayed to 2016. Was he wrong?

:28:23.:28:29.

You know, I'm not going to interfere with your domestic UK debate...

:28:29.:28:33.

you have set out very clearly what is necessary to bring down energy

:28:33.:28:37.

prices, to try and reduce the polluting that's done. Was it a

:28:37.:28:41.

mistake by this Government and the chancellor to postpone that

:28:41.:28:46.

decarbonisation target? The Commission is very much aware

:28:46.:28:52.

that we need now, not many years from now, we need now to send a very

:28:52.:28:56.

strong signal to those who want to invest in this area. There's a lot

:28:56.:29:00.

of potential investments ready out there, but they need to know where

:29:00.:29:05.

are we heading after 2020. That's why at the European level, we are

:29:05.:29:10.

suggesting we should define the 2030 targets. I'm very pleased the UK

:29:10.:29:13.

Government's endorsed that, but what I say is that your internal

:29:13.:29:18.

discussion of how many targets do you want to have, we can be a bit

:29:18.:29:21.

patient there, waiting for you to define that. We have just opened the

:29:21.:29:24.

discussion now from the Commission and I hope that all member states

:29:24.:29:28.

will understand why the sooner we get the targets right, the better

:29:28.:29:30.

from Europe and for employment in Europe.

:29:30.:29:33.

Thank you very much. In a weeks' time, the Chancellor,

:29:33.:29:38.

George Osborne, will announce the result of his spending review all

:29:38.:29:41.

the great departments of state like the Home Office, health and

:29:41.:29:44.

education and defence will find out how much they'll have to spend in

:29:44.:29:48.

the years ahead. One report today calls for something

:29:48.:29:51.

far more radical than we are likely to hear next week calling for many

:29:51.:29:55.

of the departments we are talking about themselves to be merged or

:29:55.:30:05.
:30:05.:30:07.

abolished all together. It's been written by the MP, Dom Dominic Raab

:30:07.:30:12.

who is with me now. It's different when you compare it

:30:12.:30:17.

with Japan and the US. I think in this report that if we almost half

:30:17.:30:22.

that number by merging, abolishing some to 11... Halving? That is

:30:22.:30:28.

dramatic? ! But let's be clear. We trying to do two things. Cut out the

:30:28.:30:33.

bureaucracy and the waste, so most of this is certainly not touching

:30:33.:30:36.

frontline services or core programme spending, it's looking at the

:30:36.:30:40.

administration and capital budgets and we reckon we could save �8

:30:40.:30:45.

billion a year in doing that. That's still a huge amount which would go

:30:45.:30:48.

down to paying down deficit faster but also cutting down taxes to give

:30:49.:30:51.

it stimulation to the private sector. Which departments would you

:30:51.:31:01.
:31:01.:31:07.

departments. You don't need the bureaucracy, I think there has been

:31:07.:31:11.

a lot of debate around the Department for the check, media and

:31:11.:31:15.

sport. Do we need a freestanding bureaucracy around those

:31:15.:31:25.
:31:25.:31:30.

institutions? If you look at Dec and Defra, if you merged them you would

:31:30.:31:39.

get more joined up policy-making. What do you feel about merging

:31:39.:31:49.
:31:49.:31:54.

departments? I am 2000% behind it. I spoke to someone who thought it was

:31:54.:32:04.

such a shame, one out of eight bodies, run by very nice people who

:32:04.:32:12.

have no sense of how much of a privilege it is to be given that

:32:12.:32:19.

money. Was this person from one of the department's Dominic has

:32:20.:32:28.

mentioned? It is really not... That just resonate so loudly and clearly

:32:28.:32:36.

with my experience over the past 15 years. They are well-meaning people

:32:36.:32:44.

but the pest people to have control of their own money are taxpayers. --

:32:44.:32:51.

the best people. We can figure it out and so forth. The problem I see

:32:51.:32:55.

with this idea that looks great on paper is how do you save that money?

:32:55.:32:59.

Because all you are going to do is take freestanding bureaucracies and

:32:59.:33:05.

put them in another department, and we will have big bulging departments

:33:05.:33:09.

that spend the same amount of money. They might save a little bit, but

:33:09.:33:13.

unless you cut the amount of work they do they will be spending the

:33:13.:33:18.

same. We have been careful in the analysis and the production of this

:33:18.:33:22.

report to make it clear we are not really aiming centrally at programme

:33:22.:33:27.

spending. In the private sector, if you have merging acquisition you

:33:27.:33:33.

would expect the company to save something like this, and why should

:33:33.:33:37.

those principles not also apply in the public sector? This is another

:33:37.:33:44.

good example because it is not about the snapshot we have now - The Home

:33:44.:33:52.

Office was split and since that period there spending has increased

:33:52.:33:58.

by five billion pounds a year. One of the biggest problems we have got

:33:58.:34:07.

is deporting foreign prisoners. I think we have less joined up policy

:34:07.:34:15.

than before. Do you remember John Prescott oversaw the mammoth

:34:15.:34:19.

department for transport and the regions which was deemed a failure,

:34:20.:34:28.

it was too big and overreaching, it didn't work? I haven't looked into

:34:28.:34:33.

his tenure. You are talking about joining departments together, and

:34:33.:34:38.

what happens is that various sections get forgotten. You might

:34:38.:34:43.

save money but is it worth it for the loss of function? I think we

:34:43.:34:50.

would get more efficiency. If you look at Dec and Defra, we have

:34:50.:34:59.

decarbonisation and energy policy separated from our capability with

:34:59.:35:07.

flood defences so not only would we save taxpayers money, but we would

:35:07.:35:11.

drive much greater efficiency. A lot of this proliferation has happened

:35:11.:35:16.

in the last 30 years so the idea that we couldn't do without some of

:35:16.:35:20.

this bureaucracy is crazy. Absolutely, and I think when

:35:20.:35:30.
:35:30.:35:34.

everybody is tightening their belts, we should. The -- anything we where

:35:34.:35:37.

can reduce the size of Government means the average small business

:35:37.:35:41.

person is carrying less of a weight on their shoulders and that is how

:35:41.:35:45.

we have to go from the macro to the microbe. I am trying to help people

:35:45.:35:52.

to connect, to reduce the size of Government. Everybody wins, it is

:35:52.:35:57.

not reducing functionality. think decisions would be made more

:35:57.:36:04.

quickly as a result? The biggest fixed cost for any company has is

:36:04.:36:11.

how am I going to pay the Government what I owe them through PAYE

:36:11.:36:17.

national insurance. Small businesses are focused on what their pay the

:36:17.:36:20.

Government, not about how they are going to take business to the

:36:20.:36:28.

world. We have to reduce the cost of Government, the fixed cost of PAYE

:36:28.:36:38.

national insurance. Each separate silo tries to prove its worth by

:36:38.:36:42.

creating extra to prove its worth. We will reduce the regulatory

:36:42.:36:48.

impact. Do you think it will get a good hearing? The Chancellor has

:36:48.:36:53.

always got an open mind and I'm sure it will get looked at carefully, but

:36:53.:37:00.

we must stretch the debate and look at it clearly. If you solve this

:37:00.:37:05.

one, you will get an award, I'm sure. Thank you for being on the

:37:05.:37:15.
:37:15.:37:16.

programme. Now, it's time for a look at the week ahead. The political

:37:16.:37:20.

press pack will be spending today and most of tomorrow camped out on

:37:20.:37:23.

the shores of Lough Erne in Northern Ireland where the Prime Minister,

:37:23.:37:25.

David Cameron and leaders of the world's most powerful countries are

:37:25.:37:28.

deep in conference. After that, Mr Cameron will be hot-footing it back

:37:28.:37:31.

across the Irish Sea to take his place for Prime Minister's Questions

:37:31.:37:34.

on Wednesday. A little later that evening it's George Osborne's turn

:37:34.:37:38.

in the limelight with the Mansion House speech on Wednesday evening.

:37:38.:37:41.

It's an annual City ritual and Chancellors often use it to set out

:37:41.:37:48.

their thinking. And, of course, he'll be occupied for the remainder

:37:48.:37:50.

of the week, putting the final touches to his spending review,

:37:50.:37:53.

fixing spending budgets for each Government department up to 2015

:37:53.:37:57.

into 2016. He'll make the announcements in his speech next

:37:57.:38:03.

week. Joining us from College Green is Michael Savage of the Times and

:38:03.:38:13.
:38:13.:38:15.

Elizabeth Rigby of the Financial Times. Elizabeth, how important is

:38:15.:38:20.

the G8 in terms of being a decision-making organisation now?

:38:20.:38:26.

is turning more into a talking shop and there is a concrete story about

:38:26.:38:30.

Syria and how those developments will turn out and whether there can

:38:30.:38:35.

be any process or any agreement made, but in terms of the big issues

:38:35.:38:40.

Cameron is trying to put forward, the EU trade deal and tax issues, I

:38:40.:38:45.

don't think anyone is coming out thinking we will have a concrete

:38:45.:38:52.

deal. You might make sure of the EU trade deal, Syria also not that

:38:52.:38:57.

hopeful, not many signs of action I suspect. Let's pick up one of those

:38:57.:39:04.

things and that is the campaign I David Cameron on cracking down on

:39:04.:39:10.

tax havens. Do you think he will get any agreement on that? He has been

:39:10.:39:15.

pushing hard on that one and there are a lot of people in the US

:39:15.:39:19.

worried about tax who have been praising him. The problem is he

:39:19.:39:23.

might just get ahead of everyone else in these talks. He wants to

:39:23.:39:27.

have a new register which would make it much easier to find out which

:39:27.:39:32.

companies belong to whom to stop them moving tax around the world and

:39:32.:39:35.

offsetting their tax bill. A lot of charities want this to be a very

:39:35.:39:41.

public think, and some charities are saying even over the two days of

:39:41.:39:47.

this G8, �1.4 billion will be moved through tax havens so it is a huge

:39:47.:39:54.

problem. Does it bring much political capital, this campaign for

:39:54.:40:00.

David Cameron? I think it does. Arguably Ed Miliband has been the

:40:00.:40:03.

leader on these issues about fairness in society and there is

:40:03.:40:10.

always this charge with Cameron that he is one of an elite and he looks

:40:10.:40:14.

after his rich friends when it comes to tax decisions. This idea of

:40:14.:40:19.

clamping down on tax avoidance for everyone and making a fairer society

:40:19.:40:24.

and making work pay, I think it is quite a good line for him

:40:24.:40:28.

politically, but as Michael said it is very difficult to get any

:40:28.:40:34.

consensus. You can only really deal with tax on a global level and that

:40:34.:40:39.

is it big problem. Looking ahead to the Mansion house speech, will

:40:40.:40:45.

George Osborne dare to talk about green shoots? We have seen the

:40:45.:40:53.

political dangers in that one before. He will certainly one to be

:40:54.:40:57.

saying something about returning those publicly owned banks into

:40:58.:41:02.

private hands. There has been a lot of talks about this, the problem is

:41:02.:41:06.

how you can do it, the pace at which you can do it, because we bought

:41:06.:41:13.

shares in RBS at about �5, they are trading at around �3, and we are

:41:14.:41:23.
:41:24.:41:24.

long way off making a profit and we could lose money.

:41:24.:41:27.

Are unpaid internships an invaluable introduction to the job of you

:41:27.:41:30.

dreams? Or a modern form of slave Labour? Young people work for free,

:41:30.:41:33.

gratis and for nothing across the world of business and industry. But

:41:33.:41:37.

is it fair? And should they be paid even though they're happy not to be?

:41:37.:41:40.

Former Labour minister Hazel Blears has a view on this. This is her

:41:40.:41:50.
:41:50.:42:20.

office as a paid intern. Hello, I am a paid intern and I am a paid intern

:42:20.:42:30.
:42:30.:42:30.

doing Parliamentary correspondence. These two Rian scheme that I

:42:30.:42:33.

initiated a couple of years ago. They get to have experience of

:42:33.:42:42.

working in Parliament, they get paid a proper wage, and they get help

:42:42.:42:47.

with housing costs, but many young people across the country are being

:42:47.:42:57.
:42:57.:43:00.

exploited by unscrupulous employers. They are essentially free labour,

:43:00.:43:10.
:43:10.:43:11.

and most young people across the country are excluded. On paid

:43:11.:43:14.

internships are modern-day scandal and they are particularly rife in

:43:14.:43:17.

the fields where young people are desperate to get a foothold, in

:43:18.:43:22.

fashion, media, journalism, and until recently in politics as well,

:43:22.:43:26.

and that is why I am calling on my colleagues in Parliament to make a

:43:27.:43:32.

pledge to pay their interns. We have got to take a lead in the House of

:43:32.:43:36.

Commons if we are going to encourage others to follow. I also want to

:43:36.:43:40.

make the advertisements of unpaid internships unlawful. In British

:43:40.:43:49.

law, you are worker and entitled to the national minimum wage, and it

:43:49.:43:54.

should not be allowed to advertise unlawful jobs. We need to help young

:43:55.:44:00.

people whose dreams have been dashed because they cannot afford to do an

:44:00.:44:04.

on paid internships. We need to make sure unpaid internships are bound to

:44:04.:44:12.

give people a decent start to their working lives.

:44:12.:44:15.

Well Hazel Blears is with us and she's joined by the other two

:44:15.:44:18.

members of today's Monday panel of MPs - Andrea Leadsom of the

:44:18.:44:20.

Conservatives and the Liberal Democrat MP Annette Brooke. Hazel

:44:20.:44:27.

Blears, what are the statistics? How many interns in Parliament are paid?

:44:27.:44:30.

About 18 months ago the vast majority of interns were not paid

:44:31.:44:38.

and in the last two years we have seen fantastic progress in politics.

:44:38.:44:44.

That recent? Yes, now it is only a handful of MPs and I am saying today

:44:44.:44:47.

that in order for us to ask other businesses to do the right thing, we

:44:47.:44:52.

have got to show some leadership on this issue and say we are committed

:44:52.:45:02.
:45:02.:45:05.

to paying our interns. We are moving in the right direction but there are

:45:05.:45:08.

still a handful of MPs advertising for internships up to 12 months on

:45:08.:45:10.

paid to do diaries, research, fundraising. That handful, is that

:45:10.:45:15.

across the political spectrum? the handful I have left, I haven't

:45:15.:45:21.

seen many Labour wants, I have to say. Again, they are minority now

:45:22.:45:26.

and if you look back to a few years ago it was a culture. I'm not

:45:26.:45:29.

blaming my colleagues because everybody did it, but in future

:45:29.:45:34.

let's make sure we do the right thing. Do you believe all interns

:45:34.:45:44.
:45:44.:45:49.

should be paid? Do you agree I agree with what Hazel is saying, but some

:45:49.:45:53.

should have a weeks' work experience. That's fine. Do you have

:45:53.:46:01.

an intern? A fully paid apprentice. Again, whilst I agree with Hazel, I

:46:01.:46:06.

would say apprenticeships are even better. Every year, I take a sixth

:46:06.:46:11.

form lever from a school many my constituency, they get an NVQ level

:46:11.:46:15.

four and some real Parliamentary experience on their CV. Do you have

:46:15.:46:20.

an intern? I do, indeed.Do you pay? I've been paying for a number of

:46:20.:46:25.

years now in wealth. As you will have probably researched. It's been

:46:25.:46:28.

successful. I take them on a short-term basis, but if they

:46:28.:46:32.

haven't got a job at the end of three or four months and it makes

:46:32.:46:36.

sense to extend for another month, I do that, so I'm flexible on that,

:46:36.:46:41.

but try to use Parliamentary money wisely so don't have an intern for

:46:41.:46:46.

example during the summer weeks because I wouldn't be giving them a

:46:46.:46:50.

good experience frankly. Most MPs it seems do they pair interns. What

:46:50.:46:54.

levels are we talking about? I was going to make the point that it's

:46:54.:46:59.

great you have an apprentice, but the levels for them are very low. On

:46:59.:47:04.

my scheme, I've raised nearly �500,000, paid �18,000 a year, they

:47:04.:47:08.

get help with housing and a person development programme and I worry

:47:08.:47:11.

because of the way rent levels are in London that if you are not paying

:47:11.:47:15.

a decent wage, 95% of people from the rest of the UK can't possibly

:47:15.:47:19.

even entertain the idea of working in London. What do you say to that?

:47:19.:47:24.

You know, my apprentices come from Northamptonshire, work most time in

:47:24.:47:28.

Northampton, they come to London a day a week and travel costs are paid

:47:28.:47:31.

for. For them, it's completely brilliant. They tend to be an

:47:32.:47:36.

A-level school lever, either deciding to work and see if they

:47:36.:47:40.

want to go to university or they've decided not to go down that route.

:47:40.:47:46.

It's a win-win. For a school lever, it gives them a years' worth of

:47:46.:47:50.

office experience. Should it be unlawful, as Hazel Blears suggested,

:47:50.:47:54.

to advertise unpaid internship? think that's a difficult one, isn't

:47:54.:48:01.

it? I absolutely agree with the moral high ground because I found it

:48:01.:48:05.

just unacceptable to carry on with the practice that was existing when

:48:05.:48:09.

I first became an inspect. But you wouldn't go as far as what Hazel is

:48:09.:48:14.

suggesting? I would really want to put as much pressure as possible on.

:48:14.:48:19.

If I could just see there might be some exceptions, that's all I'm

:48:19.:48:25.

saying. I would not go back to any form of paying just expenses, as I

:48:25.:48:28.

have done years ago. It's much better to be paid and to make sure

:48:28.:48:32.

it's a quality experience and that you see your person into a job.

:48:33.:48:38.

Which leads me to finally, even though you are agreed on this issue,

:48:38.:48:41.

unpaid interns whether they are doing a job that's not worthwhile

:48:41.:48:45.

and may not lead to anything, doesn't seem very fair. But, having

:48:45.:48:48.

exceptions where you could interns that are unpaid but there is the

:48:48.:48:52.

likelihood that it might lead to a job, surely that undermines your

:48:52.:48:57.

call for the advertising to be unlawful of unpaid internships?

:48:57.:49:02.

don't agree at all. Four weeks' work experience fine, travel expenses

:49:02.:49:05.

lunches whatever. After that, you are asking people to work long-term

:49:05.:49:10.

for no pay in this country and actually if you are working set

:49:10.:49:14.

hours and have set duties, you are a worker under the law and are

:49:14.:49:23.

entitled to be paid. It's not just politics, it's the media and it's

:49:23.:49:28.

rife in music. You need leadership. There are good people in the media,

:49:28.:49:32.

good magazines and journalists. People like Deloittes and PCC, they

:49:32.:49:39.

pay their interns and as politicians we have to show leadership. I'm

:49:39.:49:45.

delighted we have cross party agreement. What about you? We've got

:49:45.:49:48.

to get young people into work, we shouldn't legislate. If they are

:49:48.:49:51.

offered a job and choose to take it, they should have that job rather

:49:51.:49:54.

than not take it. It's a huge mistake. The kind of cultural

:49:54.:49:58.

pressure, the fact we were talking about it now, the fact the behaviour

:49:58.:50:02.

is changing is all great, to legislate would be to go too far.

:50:02.:50:07.

You run the risk that the only time anyone gets work experience is to do

:50:07.:50:10.

nothing and to sit around and make tea. Actually, young people do want

:50:10.:50:14.

to get on to the job ladder, you should give them the chance to do

:50:14.:50:17.

that. But they shouldn't have to work for free, not in the 21st

:50:17.:50:21.

century. We'll leave it there. Labourisation mantra was education,

:50:21.:50:25.

education, education. Over 15 years on from Tony Blair's famous phrase,

:50:25.:50:29.

what is Labour's policy on education and how is it different to the

:50:29.:50:34.

coalition's? This morning, Steven Twigg has been spelling out in a

:50:34.:50:38.

speech Labour's plans. They want to give all schools some of the

:50:38.:50:41.

freedoms currently enjoyed by academies and free schools. This

:50:41.:50:45.

will mean wider discretion over the curriculum, the freedom to change

:50:45.:50:48.

the length of the school term and school control over procurement.

:50:48.:50:54.

This is what he said earlier. We know that giving schools more

:50:54.:50:59.

freedom over how they teach and how they run and organise their schools

:50:59.:51:05.

can help to raise standards. Innovation excites, it can uncover

:51:05.:51:11.

new ideas and breathe life town the system. Innovation challenges the

:51:11.:51:15.

historic inheritances that mean schools do things that way simply

:51:15.:51:21.

because they always have done. So why should we deny these freedoms

:51:21.:51:26.

to thousands of schools? All schools should have them, not just academies

:51:26.:51:31.

and free schools. Stephen Twigg there. Hazel Blears,

:51:31.:51:34.

Labour has finally and officially adopted the free schools policy of

:51:34.:51:38.

the coalition? I wouldn't go as far as that. I'm delighted by what

:51:38.:51:42.

Stephen said today, he wants all schools to be academies, not free

:51:42.:51:47.

schools. The academy programme was started under Tony Blair and it was

:51:47.:51:51.

about making the poor school schools up to the standards of the rest of

:51:51.:51:55.

the schools and I think what Stephen's done today is, he's said

:51:55.:51:59.

he wants to give all schools the freedom on the curriculum and how to

:51:59.:52:03.

organise themselves because that's showing to give teachers that extra

:52:03.:52:07.

incentive to go out there and do the very best they can. I'm delighted.

:52:07.:52:12.

And in a way, you supported whole heartedly the academies programme?

:52:12.:52:16.

Yes. I come back to the issue that Labour won't reverse free schools?

:52:16.:52:20.

Stephen's said the existing free schools will continue to operate,

:52:20.:52:24.

because you don't want to disrupt children's education and any in the

:52:24.:52:27.

pipeline will be funded. Free schools came about partly because of

:52:27.:52:30.

parents' frustration at the low standards that there were and if you

:52:30.:52:34.

raise standards inle all schools by giving them freedom and having

:52:34.:52:37.

academies, there 'll be very little demand for free schools. So you

:52:37.:52:42.

think in the end that somehow the free schools will wither and die?

:52:42.:52:45.

Probably because I genuinely feel they've come about because parents

:52:45.:52:48.

can't get their children into a decent school so they set up their

:52:48.:52:52.

own. Stephen's talked about parent-led academies, there's not

:52:52.:52:56.

much difference in terms of the ethos we are trying to create.

:52:56.:52:59.

don't think there's any difference between parent-led academies and

:52:59.:53:04.

free schools. You talked about freedom in the curriculum, that's to

:53:04.:53:08.

some extent what free schools and academies are doing? There is a

:53:08.:53:11.

nuance and you are right, it's the role of the local education

:53:11.:53:15.

authority. Stephen said the LEA should be able to intervene where

:53:15.:53:17.

schools are struggle and failing because they have a responsibility

:53:18.:53:21.

to the people in the community. That's right, whatever you call

:53:21.:53:26.

yourself, a free school or academy, the LEA should be able to say we'll

:53:26.:53:29.

help you get back on the rails. you think they should continue to

:53:29.:53:33.

have that role? No. Perhaps one of the greatest achievements of the

:53:33.:53:37.

coalition Government has been the academy and free schools programme.

:53:37.:53:41.

Recently, Sir Michael Wilshere came out and said schools continue to

:53:41.:53:46.

fail the brightest, they are not aspirational, we are in a global

:53:46.:53:49.

race for better education and it's interesting that Stephen Twigg is

:53:50.:53:52.

saying innovation and freedom excites professionals, so let's do

:53:52.:53:57.

more of it. It sounds to me like a reversal sausage machine whereby

:53:57.:54:01.

where making all schools academies, somehow we are capturing them all

:54:01.:54:04.

back under the local council umbrella as they used to be and I

:54:04.:54:07.

think that would be a retro grade step. I think they are doing

:54:07.:54:11.

fantastically well. What is your response to Stephen

:54:11.:54:14.

Twigg saying the freedom should include a longer school day or maybe

:54:14.:54:19.

a longer school term? I don't have a problem with those freedoms. In

:54:19.:54:23.

fact, the Liberal Democrats in their manifesto were actually saying, if

:54:23.:54:26.

freedoms were good for the Labour academies, then they ought to be

:54:26.:54:32.

good for all schools in terms of the curriculum and matters like that, so

:54:32.:54:36.

I'm actually finding a couple of lines I'm absolutely agreeing with

:54:36.:54:40.

them. What we are facing now, whatever

:54:40.:54:43.

one's views on academies and free schools, it would be just

:54:43.:54:47.

irresponsible to try to switch the clock back from everybody's point of

:54:47.:54:53.

view. But personally, I know that I want my party to be thinking through

:54:53.:54:58.

very carefully what is the role of the local authority in this future

:54:58.:55:02.

situation. If you take it to its logical conclusion, you have all

:55:02.:55:07.

academies, all broken free, then actually, your authority, where

:55:07.:55:11.

parents go to to actually make complaints and so on, comes back to

:55:11.:55:14.

central Government. It's like having one local education authority based

:55:14.:55:19.

in the Government department and I don't think that's right.

:55:19.:55:22.

ALL SPEAK AT ONCE That's exactly what we are saying.

:55:22.:55:25.

The local education authority should have the right for all schools,

:55:25.:55:28.

whatever they are called, to intervene when things go wrong.

:55:28.:55:33.

That's right. And free schools. But that's not going to happen, is it?

:55:33.:55:37.

But the responsibility is to their children and families. The teachers'

:55:37.:55:42.

unions, are they happy for a longer school day and term? There will of

:55:42.:55:45.

to be negotiations, but increasingly, everybody's pretty

:55:45.:55:49.

much agreed that having the long-terms and then long school

:55:49.:55:53.

holidays, if you have parents that go to work, it's you expensive to

:55:53.:55:56.

pay for childcare and the evidence is that poorer children fall behind

:55:56.:55:59.

during the long holidays because they don't have the money to go to

:55:59.:56:02.

summer schools and do all the extracurricular education. It would

:56:03.:56:08.

be a great idea to have more terms and shorter school holidays. Coming

:56:08.:56:13.

from a teacher's family, let me put the teacher's viewpoint here.

:56:13.:56:19.

you a qualified teacher? Yes, I am, as is my daughter and husband, so I

:56:19.:56:24.

speak with some passion here that when you have change, it's really

:56:24.:56:30.

important that the changes are at the right pace and you carry your

:56:30.:56:33.

workforce with you. We'd say that in all areas, whatever we are talking

:56:33.:56:37.

about. There's no doubt about it, there are unhappy teachers at the

:56:37.:56:43.

moment and there's a lot of work to be done with teachers. But, and...

:56:43.:56:48.

Do you think Michael Gove's moved far too quickly? What I'll say about

:56:48.:56:52.

Michael, his motivations are first class, I really understand what he's

:56:52.:56:57.

trying to achieve. I agree with Andrea on that. I wouldn't go about

:56:57.:57:04.

it in exactly the same fashion, but standards have to be raised. Michael

:57:04.:57:08.

is so passionate about turning around education and the political

:57:08.:57:11.

life cycle doesn't give you very long. If he's been so passionate

:57:11.:57:14.

that he's not taken everyone with him on day up with, you have to give

:57:14.:57:17.

him the chance and the benefit of the doubt because the changes are

:57:17.:57:21.

going to be so beneficial. right. Can I briefly, before we

:57:21.:57:27.

finish, talk about Labour's report at the weekend, or their policy to

:57:27.:57:32.

sack unqualified teachers? Do you think that is a good idea? If you

:57:32.:57:36.

say that every teacher who's not qualified is somehow a bad teacher,

:57:36.:57:42.

I think that's a bit of a broad sweep. That's what Labour's prop

:57:42.:57:48.

posing, 5,000 teachers who haven't got the qualifications will go?

:57:48.:57:52.

danger is that you will have free schools from teachers who have no

:57:52.:57:56.

qualifications. We have to Bo worried about that and need to be

:57:56.:58:00.

careful how it's worked out. I don't believe in sacking people.

:58:00.:58:02.

Qualifications and training is important and we need to rethink

:58:02.:58:08.

that. I've taught in an independent school where everybody is not

:58:08.:58:11.

qualified and that does work. All right. Thank you. We have just

:58:11.:58:15.

got time before we go to do the answer to our quiz. I don't know if

:58:15.:58:19.

you remember it, it was change or setting up new super prisons, doing

:58:19.:58:23.

away with establishments like Wormwood Scrubs and holt hoeway.

:58:23.:58:27.

What would happen to the old buildings? Would they be turned into

:58:27.:58:34.

boutiques, hotels? They have a Reds didn'tial provision, they are used

:58:34.:58:39.

to looking after people. It is boutique hotels and not farms. Thank

:58:39.:58:43.

Jo Coburn discusses the G8 Summit, climate change, and unpaid internships. She's joined by guest-of-the-day Julie Meyer, the "Dragon's Den Online" entrepreneur.


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