Browse content similar to 17/06/2013. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Politics. On a day when the world's leaders have come to Northern | :00:55. | :01:04. | |
Ireland, it is the start of the G8 conference in Lough Erne and it has | :01:04. | :01:11. | |
started with a little political stardust. But warm words aside, the | :01:11. | :01:14. | |
conference agenda will be tough, with the leaders far from agreed on | :01:14. | :01:18. | |
what to do about the civil war in Syria. We'll have all the latest. | :01:18. | :01:21. | |
Plus, Labour sets out its plans for schools, extending some of the | :01:21. | :01:24. | |
freedoms enjoyed by academies to all. But do plans to sack | :01:24. | :01:26. | |
unqualified teachers fall foul of employment law? And former minister | :01:26. | :01:30. | |
Hazel Blears tells us its time to start paying our interns. All that | :01:30. | :01:34. | |
in the next hour, and our special guest today is the investor and | :01:34. | :01:37. | |
entrepreneur Julie Meyer of Ariadne Capital. Let's start with the | :01:37. | :01:46. | |
Co-op's troubled banking division. The news today is that there's been | :01:46. | :01:49. | |
a deal with the regulators to try and plug a 1.5 billion pound | :01:49. | :01:54. | |
shortfall in its balance sheet. Is it a good deal, Julie? It is | :01:54. | :01:59. | |
interesting how they got to where they are and how they will get out, | :01:59. | :02:05. | |
two separate issues. My perspective would be looking at the rise of new | :02:05. | :02:15. | |
:02:15. | :02:15. | ||
lenders, like Soper. What happens to the Co-op bank I think has less of | :02:15. | :02:19. | |
an impact on overall the economy and the financing of small businesses | :02:19. | :02:29. | |
:02:29. | :02:37. | ||
than some of the new funders. that because we are still living in | :02:37. | :02:44. | |
an age where banks like the Co-op are still teetering on the edge? | :02:44. | :02:50. | |
People will find it difficult to hear the news that the Co-op needed | :02:50. | :02:55. | |
that amount of money? The banks would probably argue that they are | :02:55. | :02:57. | |
being given mixed messages about whether they should prepare their | :02:57. | :03:00. | |
balances or keep lending. A new banking system is emerging. | :03:00. | :03:06. | |
Unregulated? You have to be regulated, and so do the crowd | :03:06. | :03:11. | |
lenders, so they are dilated but much less so, but the interesting | :03:11. | :03:17. | |
thing is how much they are growing. People may think this is for the | :03:17. | :03:22. | |
doctors and dentists of the world, this is becoming a mass phenomenon. | :03:22. | :03:27. | |
Does it need to be regulated? If you look at the issue of the Co-op, it | :03:27. | :03:32. | |
is a big test for the regulator, will the regulator turn its | :03:32. | :03:39. | |
attention to the phenomenon you are talking about? Who guard the | :03:39. | :03:45. | |
guardians? Do we trust people to be honest? No, and there is something | :03:45. | :03:50. | |
to be said for new light structures, lean technology, | :03:50. | :03:54. | |
efficient structures and some new institutions giving broader | :03:55. | :04:01. | |
competition. Are we seeing green shoots in the economy? Yes, it is a | :04:01. | :04:06. | |
fantastic time to be an investor, but the economy feels uneven. It is | :04:06. | :04:16. | |
:04:16. | :04:16. | ||
not just the high-growth start-ups, we work with corporate is trying to | :04:17. | :04:25. | |
find a system to create high-growth but I feel the economy is very | :04:25. | :04:29. | |
uneven with people embracing this massive digital transformation in | :04:29. | :04:33. | |
society, and some people, sometimes the heads of large culprits, who | :04:33. | :04:39. | |
believe they can choose the moment at which they engage. Spend their | :04:39. | :04:44. | |
money, you mean? Know, maybe they are sitting on a large amount of | :04:44. | :04:50. | |
cash, but technology advances not just because large corporate | :04:50. | :04:55. | |
boardrooms decide it is going to advance at a certain pace or not. It | :04:55. | :05:02. | |
has its own natural momentum. Now it's time for our daily quiz. | :05:02. | :05:04. | |
And the think tank Policy Exchange has suggested building new super | :05:04. | :05:07. | |
prisons and doing away with establishments like Holloway and | :05:07. | :05:10. | |
Wormwood Scrubs. But what does it want to do with the old buildings? | :05:10. | :05:14. | |
Is it to use them as army barracks? Turn them into boutique hotels? | :05:14. | :05:18. | |
Replace them with supermarkets? Or create inner city farms? At the end | :05:18. | :05:27. | |
of the show we will give you the correct answer. The 39th summit of | :05:27. | :05:33. | |
the G8, hosted by the UK in Lough Erne is in full swing today. The | :05:33. | :05:36. | |
great and the good have clamoured to a quiet corner of Northern Ireland | :05:36. | :05:46. | |
to thrash out the big issues of the day. Joining the Prime Minister | :05:46. | :05:49. | |
David Cameron for a high level pow-wow are Presidents Obama, Putin | :05:49. | :05:51. | |
and Hollande, Mrs Merkel, Canada's Stephen Harper, Italy's Prime | :05:51. | :06:00. | |
Minister Enrico Letta and Japan's Shinzo Abe. The G8 summit's agenda | :06:00. | :06:03. | |
has been carefully created by the Prime Minister to encompass three Ts | :06:03. | :06:06. | |
- tax, transparency and trade. With his main focus on setting global | :06:06. | :06:09. | |
rules to share tax information and cracking down on tax dodgers. But it | :06:09. | :06:12. | |
seems Syria will be dominating the conversation with high level | :06:12. | :06:15. | |
meetings expected between the UK, US and Russia. With such a packed | :06:15. | :06:18. | |
agenda, is it any wonder that the wives and Mr Merkel are not | :06:18. | :06:24. | |
attending? Mrs Obama is in town for the G8 but she's been sent to Dublin | :06:24. | :06:32. | |
to watch Riverdance. Well, earlier today, President Obama arrived in | :06:32. | :06:35. | |
Belfast for the G8 Summit, and he took some time out to talk to young | :06:35. | :06:43. | |
people about future hopes for Northern Ireland. Here in Northern | :06:43. | :06:47. | |
Ireland, this generation has known even more rapid change than many | :06:47. | :06:52. | |
young people have seen around the world. And while you had unique | :06:52. | :06:56. | |
challenges of your own, you also have unique reasons to be hopeful, | :06:56. | :07:02. | |
for you are the first generation in this land to inherit more than just | :07:02. | :07:10. | |
the hardened attitudes and the bitter prejudices of the past. You | :07:10. | :07:17. | |
are an inheritor of a just and hard earned peace. You now live in a | :07:17. | :07:24. | |
thoroughly modern Northern Ireland. Of course the recessions that have | :07:24. | :07:30. | |
spread through nearly every country have inflicted hardships here as | :07:30. | :07:34. | |
well, but day-to-day life is changing throughout the North. There | :07:34. | :07:41. | |
was a time people couldn't have imagined Northern Ireland hosting a | :07:41. | :07:47. | |
gathering of world leaders as you are today. And our chief political | :07:47. | :07:54. | |
correspondent Norman Smith joins us now from the G8 Summit. President | :07:54. | :07:57. | |
Obama talking about a transformed Northern Ireland, but of course it | :07:57. | :08:01. | |
is a conflict in the Middle East that will dominate the talks today, | :08:01. | :08:06. | |
and as it stands they couldn't be further apart, Russia, the UK and | :08:06. | :08:14. | |
the US? Yes, there is no disguising the yawning divide of Russia and | :08:14. | :08:21. | |
everyone else here. Canada's Prime Minister described the summit as the | :08:21. | :08:28. | |
G-7, plus one. That said, I don't think there is any sign of President | :08:28. | :08:35. | |
Putin giving in, he doesn't seem to change his position easily and he is | :08:35. | :08:39. | |
utterly convinced of his stance which means what we are going to see | :08:39. | :08:43. | |
from President Obama and the Prime Minister is trying to sketch out a | :08:43. | :08:47. | |
longer argument which is to say that if nothing is done, then the danger | :08:47. | :08:53. | |
is that in time President Assad will be removed and replaced by an | :08:53. | :08:56. | |
extreme Islamist regime which will not only be to the disadvantage of | :08:56. | :09:01. | |
the West but also to Russia because the last thing Russia wants in its | :09:01. | :09:05. | |
sphere of influence is a fundamentalist regime. The hope is | :09:05. | :09:10. | |
that in time that may begin to chip away at President Putin's | :09:10. | :09:16. | |
resistance. What might make that more difficult is America's decision | :09:16. | :09:22. | |
to arm the rebels in Syria. Is there an expectation now from the Obama | :09:22. | :09:27. | |
Administration that somehow the UK will follow suit in terms of arming | :09:27. | :09:32. | |
rebels? Whatever the expectation in the United States, I think the blunt | :09:32. | :09:36. | |
reality is there will be no arming of the rebels in the near future by | :09:36. | :09:41. | |
Britain and the simple reason for that is Parliament and public | :09:41. | :09:45. | |
opinion. If you look at the Parliamentary arithmetic, there is | :09:45. | :09:49. | |
no way David Cameron could win a vote. Iraq casts a very long | :09:49. | :09:54. | |
shadow, which is why Downing Street are trying to recalibrate this whole | :09:54. | :09:59. | |
argument to say it is not just about supplying arms to the rebels, this | :09:59. | :10:03. | |
is about a broader geopolitical struggle is similar to Afghanistan | :10:03. | :10:09. | |
and North Africa, about confronting Islamists who pose a fundamental | :10:09. | :10:13. | |
challenge to Western values. In other words it is a longer campaign | :10:13. | :10:17. | |
which is William Hague said this morning could go on for years. In | :10:17. | :10:22. | |
the near future I think there is no prospect of us offering arms which | :10:22. | :10:25. | |
is why David Cameron and William Hague have been stressing non-lethal | :10:26. | :10:32. | |
assistance. The stressing is on non-lethal assistance such as | :10:32. | :10:38. | |
armoured cars and night vision goggles. And the Conservative MP who | :10:38. | :10:40. | |
chairs the Foreign Affairs Select Committee, Richard Ottaway, is here | :10:40. | :10:44. | |
now. Do you agree with that assessment that there is no chance | :10:44. | :10:47. | |
of any sort of decision being made by the Government to arm rebels in | :10:47. | :10:56. | |
Syria? I think it is pretty unlikely, Norman Smith's assessment | :10:56. | :11:02. | |
is pretty accurate. I would like to see a discussion, but actually what | :11:02. | :11:08. | |
is going to be proposed is critical here. If we are talking about | :11:08. | :11:13. | |
continuing support with non-lethal equipment perhaps, I'm sure people | :11:13. | :11:16. | |
will support it. The line that I think most of my colleagues in | :11:16. | :11:22. | |
parliament would be reluctant across is physically arming and providing | :11:22. | :11:28. | |
lethal equipment. Are you in favour of arming rebels with lethal weapons | :11:28. | :11:34. | |
or not? I want to see the proposal before I make up my mind. If there | :11:34. | :11:38. | |
is a sensible proposal that could bring this conflict to a closure and | :11:38. | :11:43. | |
get the sort of pressure on President Putin that Norman Smith | :11:43. | :11:49. | |
was talking about, then I think that is worthy of consideration. It would | :11:49. | :11:54. | |
never pass a vote, would it? We have heard from Tory backbenchers and the | :11:54. | :12:01. | |
Mayor of London saying that arming the rebels would be disastrous | :12:01. | :12:08. | |
because Britain would be pressing weapons into the hands of maniacs. | :12:08. | :12:12. | |
think giving a few cases of rifles to the rebels would be a mistake and | :12:12. | :12:19. | |
I wouldn't support it, but if their work to be a sophisticated approach | :12:19. | :12:23. | |
combined with a diplomatic effort, I think that effort could be supported | :12:23. | :12:28. | |
by some sort of pressure. Russian president was pretty angry, | :12:28. | :12:34. | |
I was surprised by the language he used saying Britain was in danger of | :12:34. | :12:41. | |
supporting rebels even with their non-lethal assistance, who killed | :12:41. | :12:46. | |
their enemies and eat their organs. It doesn't sound like there will be | :12:46. | :12:52. | |
any meeting of minds. I think it is a mistake for him to use an isolated | :12:52. | :12:57. | |
incident and use it as the basis of a decision that will affect millions | :12:57. | :13:07. | |
:13:07. | :13:07. | ||
of people. This is a serious civil war that could affect the security | :13:07. | :13:11. | |
of the Western world. What about America's position here? What is | :13:11. | :13:19. | |
public opinion about arming Syrian rebels and getting involved in a | :13:19. | :13:26. | |
conflict? Let's face it, Americans, when they are told they are going to | :13:26. | :13:29. | |
war by their president they get behind it, but I think we need to | :13:29. | :13:33. | |
change the rules of the game. We are on the side of freedom and we | :13:33. | :13:37. | |
believe that, and that is why America and Britain get behind when | :13:37. | :13:43. | |
there is a call to go to war. One of the told stories about Libya is how | :13:43. | :13:49. | |
technology played a major role. Why don't we arm everyone, the good and | :13:49. | :13:52. | |
the bad, with the communications ability to tell their story to | :13:52. | :13:58. | |
world. Let them get their story out there about the ideals they are | :13:58. | :14:07. | |
fighting force because frankly I'm not sure the average American knows. | :14:07. | :14:12. | |
We need the case for what they are fighting for, the principles of that | :14:12. | :14:16. | |
course, and that is what is being lost and that is why nobody can | :14:16. | :14:19. | |
really determine whether this is good or bad because nobody really | :14:19. | :14:24. | |
understands what it is we could be fighting for. Isn't that the worry, | :14:24. | :14:30. | |
we don't know who the good guys are here. The Syrian Government not, in | :14:30. | :14:34. | |
the terms that have been framed by the British Government, but who are | :14:34. | :14:42. | |
these rebels? You are quite right to ask the question, who are the good | :14:42. | :14:46. | |
guys, I don't think there are any at the moment. We are seeing a conflict | :14:46. | :14:51. | |
between Russia, Iran, Hezbollah in Lebanon on one side supporting the | :14:51. | :14:56. | |
regime, on the other side you've got the Qataries, the Saudis, Turkey, | :14:56. | :15:00. | |
supporting the rebels, and now the United States. And this is one hell | :15:00. | :15:04. | |
of a mess at the moment. Is Assad winning? Those were the reports | :15:04. | :15:10. | |
coming out now, and the reason I suggest that we are hearing more | :15:10. | :15:13. | |
desperate rhetoric, if you like, from people like William Hague, | :15:13. | :15:16. | |
saying the UK Government wants to ensure the opposition in Syria is | :15:16. | :15:19. | |
not exterminated before a political settlement can be reached, is that | :15:19. | :15:23. | |
because Assad is winning? He's certainly on top at the moment, | :15:23. | :15:32. | |
controlling all the major cities bar one. The rebels are in the | :15:32. | :15:35. | |
countryside and though they have room to manoeuvre, it's hard to say | :15:35. | :15:40. | |
they are not in control. What about Bosnia? That will evoke strong | :15:40. | :15:43. | |
emotion. Tony Blair, if you remember, he counted the then | :15:43. | :15:49. | |
American President, Bill Clinton, and led forces to go into, or | :15:49. | :15:53. | |
intervention in the form of airstrikes, into Bosnia. Are you | :15:53. | :15:58. | |
worried about those comparisons coming true in Syria? There's an | :15:58. | :16:04. | |
important distinction with Bosnia. Bosnia was an oppressed regime with | :16:04. | :16:09. | |
an oppressed government taking part in ethnic cleansing. Here, we have a | :16:09. | :16:12. | |
Civil War and we are basically taking sides. Whether or not that is | :16:12. | :16:14. | |
the right thing, only history will tell us. | :16:14. | :16:23. | |
All right. Now, the shipping forecast. There | :16:23. | :16:28. | |
are places that have hosted meetings of the G8 or the G7 or the G 6 when | :16:28. | :16:33. | |
the group was a bit smaller. Now we can add the name Lokeren to the | :16:33. | :16:40. | |
list. -- Lough Erne to the list. Do the summits ever make the list? | :16:40. | :16:46. | |
Think of it as a romantic mini break, albeit one that costs �50 | :16:46. | :16:50. | |
million to stage, with hundreds of journalists and 8,000 police | :16:50. | :16:53. | |
officers there too. Much is agreed in advance. David | :16:53. | :16:57. | |
Cameron's already dropped in on most of his fellow leaders and, | :16:57. | :17:05. | |
behind-the-scenes, diplomats called Sherpas have painstakingly got | :17:05. | :17:10. | |
consensus. Do you recall what was agreed around | :17:10. | :17:14. | |
the table by the bejumpered leaders at last year's meeting in Camp | :17:14. | :17:18. | |
David, what was in the communique issued in the French resort of | :17:18. | :17:26. | |
Deauville in 201 1? And remind me what the talks were about beside the | :17:26. | :17:29. | |
like in Canada three years ago. Sometimes a G8 really does stick in | :17:29. | :17:34. | |
the memory though, like the last time Britain hosted the gathering in | :17:34. | :17:39. | |
2005 at Gleneagles in Scotland. Or maybe it was the celebrity studded | :17:39. | :17:42. | |
Make Poverty History campaign that captured the public imagination, | :17:42. | :17:46. | |
rather than the pledges on aid, and climate change. Many agree the real | :17:46. | :17:51. | |
action is now at the much larger meetings of the G20. After all, can | :17:51. | :17:54. | |
you really address the world's problems if you don't include the | :17:54. | :17:59. | |
leaders of countries like China and India? Richard Ottaway, what is the | :17:59. | :18:03. | |
point of the G8 if you haven't got people like China? Well, you've got | :18:03. | :18:10. | |
most of the key players. I agree, there are difficulties if China are | :18:11. | :18:14. | |
not there. There is an opportunity for politicians to engage on an | :18:14. | :18:18. | |
agenda they know is coming and to come up with constructive solutions. | :18:18. | :18:21. | |
What can you remember which was significant, the other question | :18:21. | :18:26. | |
posed in the film about G8s? Out of that sum my opinion, the Deauville | :18:26. | :18:30. | |
partnership providing aid for the countries in transitioning in the | :18:30. | :18:33. | |
Arab uprising. I'm pleased to say, it's back on the agenda again I | :18:34. | :18:38. | |
think here in Northern Ireland this year. From a business perspective, | :18:38. | :18:42. | |
do you think it achieves anything? Are the summits worthwhile? I'm not | :18:42. | :18:46. | |
convinced. We need to take it to the level which is higher. You mentioned | :18:46. | :18:50. | |
transparency as well. What I would love to see coming out is, at least | :18:50. | :18:54. | |
can we get all parties to agree a level of transparency, openness and | :18:54. | :18:57. | |
freedom, even if it sounds idealistic, how can anybody say | :18:57. | :19:03. | |
that's not a good idea, because then we can start to measure regimes or | :19:03. | :19:07. | |
Governments by the level of freedom, transparency, openness and then we | :19:07. | :19:12. | |
can start to say who's a good guy and bad guy. At a minimum, it's just | :19:12. | :19:15. | |
tit-for-tat without going into a gran lard level of let's be | :19:15. | :19:19. | |
specific, or taking it up a notch and saying, what are we trying to | :19:19. | :19:23. | |
achieve at a principal level. I don't pay attention to it, I admit. | :19:23. | :19:27. | |
If people like Julie aren't Faying attention to it and we are talking | :19:27. | :19:35. | |
about leaders in the would of dis-- paying attention. What is the point? | :19:35. | :19:39. | |
As a cynical politician, there are people out there who like failure, | :19:39. | :19:43. | |
who want things to fail and are fighting for failure and therein | :19:43. | :19:47. | |
lies the clash between pragmatism and idealism. You are talking about | :19:48. | :19:51. | |
people fighting for failure. Are the right countries involved? Do we want | :19:51. | :19:58. | |
to hear what Italy is saying at the high level summits? Well, no, | :19:58. | :20:02. | |
there's the G20, a bigger grouping. These are the key players running in | :20:02. | :20:05. | |
the major economies of the the world and they know what is going on. | :20:06. | :20:11. | |
they solve the big global economic problems? Let's talk about an issue | :20:11. | :20:21. | |
:20:21. | :20:26. | ||
that David Cameron has been taketh talking about? The economy? Yes, a | :20:26. | :20:30. | |
commentary piece was in the newspaper today saying everybody | :20:30. | :20:34. | |
wants companies like Google to come that their economy. The bigger issue | :20:34. | :20:37. | |
is the contribution that we ask of people who're part of our society, | :20:37. | :20:42. | |
whether it's a Google, whether it's an... What sort of contribution | :20:42. | :20:46. | |
though? You are talking about paying their taxes? A bigger contribution. | :20:47. | :20:50. | |
American corporate tax is high, that's why the technology firms keep | :20:50. | :20:55. | |
a lot of cash you've shore and end up buying technology which is fine. | :20:55. | :20:59. | |
There's so much more they could do with the billions kept offshore and | :20:59. | :21:03. | |
I wonder whether or not we give the large US companies a very long lust | :21:03. | :21:09. | |
of things they could do for us. They could support our schools, | :21:09. | :21:12. | |
scholarship programmes, venture capital, all sorts of things. Do we | :21:12. | :21:17. | |
let them know what being a good corporate citizen is? Do we worship | :21:17. | :21:23. | |
them and let them do a bit of tax and we think they are wonderful | :21:23. | :21:25. | |
you think David Cameron's right? don't know, because I don't know | :21:25. | :21:29. | |
what is being requested, but I believe that we should expect a lot | :21:29. | :21:32. | |
out of people. I felt that expectation when I came to this | :21:32. | :21:37. | |
country. Yes. I mean hopefully we'll get a out outcome over tax, | :21:37. | :21:44. | |
transparency. What do you want to see as a good outcome? The overseas | :21:44. | :21:46. | |
territories agreeing that they'll publish all the people operating in | :21:46. | :21:52. | |
those countries. Yes. But will they? Asking is one thing, agreeing it and | :21:53. | :21:56. | |
being put into practice, do you think it will happen? Jo, what the | :21:56. | :22:00. | |
G8 does is focuses minds. It's a point in the calendar that says, we | :22:00. | :22:03. | |
are having a decision on this, and look at the pressure that's been put | :22:03. | :22:07. | |
on the OTs in the last week and they've fallen into the line. That | :22:07. | :22:10. | |
is what international diplomacy, what international efforts are all | :22:10. | :22:13. | |
about and that's what the G8 will achieve. | :22:13. | :22:18. | |
Richard, thank you. Writing ahead of the G8 conference, | :22:18. | :22:21. | |
French President, Francois Hollande, stressed that there can be no growth | :22:21. | :22:26. | |
or development that is not sustainable. And, that the G8 must | :22:26. | :22:31. | |
do its part to curb carbon emissions. Joining me ahead of the | :22:31. | :22:34. | |
key vote in the European Parliament's Environment Committee | :22:34. | :22:37. | |
on Wednesday on the flagship Emissions Trading Scheme is the EU | :22:37. | :22:42. | |
commissioner for climate action, Connie Hedagardt. Welcome to the | :22:42. | :22:46. | |
programme. Before that issue, G8 leaders, as we have been discussing, | :22:46. | :22:50. | |
are at Northern Ireland today and tomorrow discuss trade, tax and | :22:50. | :22:55. | |
transparency. Climate change isn't on the official agenda. Why not? | :22:55. | :23:02. | |
Well, you must ask the G8 President about that, but it's in the | :23:02. | :23:07. | |
preparatory work. President Hollande sent a very strong call that don't | :23:07. | :23:10. | |
forget also when you are talking about the longer term, that climate | :23:11. | :23:14. | |
change is one of the overarching challenges you have to deal with | :23:14. | :23:18. | |
also economically. It's very port. Do you think it's slipping down the | :23:18. | :23:22. | |
global agenda? No, I don't think so. I think that | :23:22. | :23:27. | |
it's simply because there are other areas coming up also that we all | :23:27. | :23:31. | |
understand why they are busy handling the economic issues. I | :23:31. | :23:35. | |
think the economic community, the leaders of the world need to | :23:35. | :23:40. | |
understand what the World Bank has said, the IMF has said, the OECD has | :23:40. | :23:45. | |
said, that dealing with climate change is not an viement issue, only | :23:45. | :23:48. | |
it's very much something you should do in order to prepare your economy | :23:48. | :23:52. | |
for the future. That should be a very clear message also to the G8. | :23:52. | :23:57. | |
Except that the Emissions Trading System, which is the EU flagship | :23:57. | :24:03. | |
environment policy for reducing carbon dioxide emissions is in | :24:03. | :24:08. | |
disarray. I spoke to people in Strasbourg who said this policy is | :24:08. | :24:12. | |
now dead, environmentalists, because the price of carbon is so low and | :24:12. | :24:17. | |
attempts to intervene in the market have failed. Is it dead? | :24:17. | :24:23. | |
It's not dead. But it needs some life support. That is the | :24:23. | :24:31. | |
possibility that the European Parliament airians have once again | :24:31. | :24:33. | |
been talking about. The Environment Committee of the Members of | :24:33. | :24:38. | |
Parliament two days from now. I can only encourage everybody to ups that | :24:38. | :24:43. | |
all kinds of alternatives to having a market-based system where you put | :24:43. | :24:50. | |
a price on carbon, all the other alternatives. By the way, the | :24:50. | :24:53. | |
automotive industry too. It's not that wow, how nice it is that it | :24:53. | :24:58. | |
costs nothing to pollute. The alternative is, you get a fragmented | :24:58. | :25:02. | |
patchwork of 27 different countries doing things. I hope the | :25:02. | :25:05. | |
Parliamentarians this time will get their act together, including, by | :25:05. | :25:10. | |
the way, also some of the British Conservatives who voted no the last | :25:10. | :25:15. | |
time. I hope they can now endorse the compromise that the Environment | :25:15. | :25:19. | |
Committee chair has put together. But realistically, it's not going to | :25:19. | :25:24. | |
happen. Who is going to change their minds? I mean, they sounded pretty | :25:24. | :25:27. | |
entrenched when you spoke to some of the Conservative mens, some of the | :25:27. | :25:33. | |
businesses as well who were lobbying mens who've said that the European | :25:33. | :25:37. | |
institution shouldn't be interfering in a market based system. Either | :25:37. | :25:41. | |
they don't interfere or the system goes down? | :25:41. | :25:45. | |
I think the listeners can imagine what would have happened if | :25:45. | :25:49. | |
everybody had said in the midst of the crisis, we don't interfere with | :25:49. | :25:52. | |
the banks because they are they are market based. There are so many | :25:52. | :25:56. | |
extraordinary things we have had to do because of the economic crisis | :25:56. | :26:00. | |
that I say that people will understand that we must also do | :26:01. | :26:07. | |
something when the price to pollute has come down to almost nothing. | :26:07. | :26:11. | |
It's an obstacle for the innovation that we need in Europe, it's an | :26:11. | :26:15. | |
obstacle for the energy efficiency and resource efficiency that we so | :26:15. | :26:20. | |
much need in Europe. And what should make them change their mind compare | :26:20. | :26:24. | |
toed the former vote? -- compared to the former vote? People have | :26:24. | :26:27. | |
realised that when we in the commission said, please get this | :26:27. | :26:32. | |
right or else you risk the price coming too close to 0, then I think | :26:32. | :26:35. | |
many have said wow, that was almost happening after the first vote in | :26:35. | :26:39. | |
Parliament. So they can see that now it's serious, they had to make up | :26:39. | :26:43. | |
their mind, do they want to keep this market based system or do they | :26:43. | :26:48. | |
want a patchwork and fragmented way forward and therefore I believe that | :26:48. | :26:52. | |
they will get it right later this week, I very much hope so and I | :26:52. | :26:57. | |
would very much encourage that. you are discussing the issue of the | :26:57. | :27:00. | |
Emissions Trading System, energy prices, fuel prices continue to go | :27:00. | :27:04. | |
up? What do you say to the people of Europe? That's what they are | :27:04. | :27:07. | |
interested in, they are not particularly interested, I suggest, | :27:07. | :27:12. | |
in a system that they don't have any relationship to. They want to know | :27:12. | :27:16. | |
if energy prices will come down? very much understand that people are | :27:16. | :27:21. | |
concerned about high energy praises, but if we get it right with this cap | :27:21. | :27:26. | |
on trading, the prices will come back to where they were last fall. | :27:26. | :27:30. | |
That's what we are talking about. What we need in order for each of us | :27:30. | :27:35. | |
to save money on our energy bill, that is more energy efficiency, that | :27:35. | :27:39. | |
is more new technologies. I think that most people realise that in a | :27:39. | :27:43. | |
world where still more people want a share in the good life, the demand | :27:43. | :27:47. | |
for energy, goods, commodities, will only increase, so if in Europe we | :27:48. | :27:53. | |
want to create more jobs and improve our competitiveness, it's a very big | :27:53. | :27:57. | |
advantage to become much more energy efficient, much more resource | :27:57. | :28:02. | |
efficient and that is what can be helped if we get it right with the | :28:02. | :28:04. | |
backlogging and the vote later this week. | :28:05. | :28:09. | |
What was your reaction then to the bid to include a target to decooer | :28:09. | :28:15. | |
Bonnise the UK's electricity generation by 2030 which was | :28:15. | :28:17. | |
narrowly defeated in Parliament because the Chancellor insisted a | :28:17. | :28:23. | |
decision on that target should be delayed to 2016. Was he wrong? | :28:23. | :28:29. | |
You know, I'm not going to interfere with your domestic UK debate... | :28:29. | :28:33. | |
you have set out very clearly what is necessary to bring down energy | :28:33. | :28:37. | |
prices, to try and reduce the polluting that's done. Was it a | :28:37. | :28:41. | |
mistake by this Government and the chancellor to postpone that | :28:41. | :28:46. | |
decarbonisation target? The Commission is very much aware | :28:46. | :28:52. | |
that we need now, not many years from now, we need now to send a very | :28:52. | :28:56. | |
strong signal to those who want to invest in this area. There's a lot | :28:56. | :29:00. | |
of potential investments ready out there, but they need to know where | :29:00. | :29:05. | |
are we heading after 2020. That's why at the European level, we are | :29:05. | :29:10. | |
suggesting we should define the 2030 targets. I'm very pleased the UK | :29:10. | :29:13. | |
Government's endorsed that, but what I say is that your internal | :29:13. | :29:18. | |
discussion of how many targets do you want to have, we can be a bit | :29:18. | :29:21. | |
patient there, waiting for you to define that. We have just opened the | :29:21. | :29:24. | |
discussion now from the Commission and I hope that all member states | :29:24. | :29:28. | |
will understand why the sooner we get the targets right, the better | :29:28. | :29:30. | |
from Europe and for employment in Europe. | :29:30. | :29:33. | |
Thank you very much. In a weeks' time, the Chancellor, | :29:33. | :29:38. | |
George Osborne, will announce the result of his spending review all | :29:38. | :29:41. | |
the great departments of state like the Home Office, health and | :29:41. | :29:44. | |
education and defence will find out how much they'll have to spend in | :29:44. | :29:48. | |
the years ahead. One report today calls for something | :29:48. | :29:51. | |
far more radical than we are likely to hear next week calling for many | :29:51. | :29:55. | |
of the departments we are talking about themselves to be merged or | :29:55. | :30:05. | |
:30:05. | :30:07. | ||
abolished all together. It's been written by the MP, Dom Dominic Raab | :30:07. | :30:12. | |
who is with me now. It's different when you compare it | :30:12. | :30:17. | |
with Japan and the US. I think in this report that if we almost half | :30:17. | :30:22. | |
that number by merging, abolishing some to 11... Halving? That is | :30:22. | :30:28. | |
dramatic? ! But let's be clear. We trying to do two things. Cut out the | :30:28. | :30:33. | |
bureaucracy and the waste, so most of this is certainly not touching | :30:33. | :30:36. | |
frontline services or core programme spending, it's looking at the | :30:36. | :30:40. | |
administration and capital budgets and we reckon we could save �8 | :30:40. | :30:45. | |
billion a year in doing that. That's still a huge amount which would go | :30:45. | :30:48. | |
down to paying down deficit faster but also cutting down taxes to give | :30:49. | :30:51. | |
it stimulation to the private sector. Which departments would you | :30:51. | :31:01. | |
:31:01. | :31:07. | ||
departments. You don't need the bureaucracy, I think there has been | :31:07. | :31:11. | |
a lot of debate around the Department for the check, media and | :31:11. | :31:15. | |
sport. Do we need a freestanding bureaucracy around those | :31:15. | :31:25. | |
:31:25. | :31:30. | ||
institutions? If you look at Dec and Defra, if you merged them you would | :31:30. | :31:39. | |
get more joined up policy-making. What do you feel about merging | :31:39. | :31:49. | |
:31:49. | :31:54. | ||
departments? I am 2000% behind it. I spoke to someone who thought it was | :31:54. | :32:04. | |
such a shame, one out of eight bodies, run by very nice people who | :32:04. | :32:12. | |
have no sense of how much of a privilege it is to be given that | :32:12. | :32:19. | |
money. Was this person from one of the department's Dominic has | :32:20. | :32:28. | |
mentioned? It is really not... That just resonate so loudly and clearly | :32:28. | :32:36. | |
with my experience over the past 15 years. They are well-meaning people | :32:36. | :32:44. | |
but the pest people to have control of their own money are taxpayers. -- | :32:44. | :32:51. | |
the best people. We can figure it out and so forth. The problem I see | :32:51. | :32:55. | |
with this idea that looks great on paper is how do you save that money? | :32:55. | :32:59. | |
Because all you are going to do is take freestanding bureaucracies and | :32:59. | :33:05. | |
put them in another department, and we will have big bulging departments | :33:05. | :33:09. | |
that spend the same amount of money. They might save a little bit, but | :33:09. | :33:13. | |
unless you cut the amount of work they do they will be spending the | :33:13. | :33:18. | |
same. We have been careful in the analysis and the production of this | :33:18. | :33:22. | |
report to make it clear we are not really aiming centrally at programme | :33:22. | :33:27. | |
spending. In the private sector, if you have merging acquisition you | :33:27. | :33:33. | |
would expect the company to save something like this, and why should | :33:33. | :33:37. | |
those principles not also apply in the public sector? This is another | :33:37. | :33:44. | |
good example because it is not about the snapshot we have now - The Home | :33:44. | :33:52. | |
Office was split and since that period there spending has increased | :33:52. | :33:58. | |
by five billion pounds a year. One of the biggest problems we have got | :33:58. | :34:07. | |
is deporting foreign prisoners. I think we have less joined up policy | :34:07. | :34:15. | |
than before. Do you remember John Prescott oversaw the mammoth | :34:15. | :34:19. | |
department for transport and the regions which was deemed a failure, | :34:20. | :34:28. | |
it was too big and overreaching, it didn't work? I haven't looked into | :34:28. | :34:33. | |
his tenure. You are talking about joining departments together, and | :34:33. | :34:38. | |
what happens is that various sections get forgotten. You might | :34:38. | :34:43. | |
save money but is it worth it for the loss of function? I think we | :34:43. | :34:50. | |
would get more efficiency. If you look at Dec and Defra, we have | :34:50. | :34:59. | |
decarbonisation and energy policy separated from our capability with | :34:59. | :35:07. | |
flood defences so not only would we save taxpayers money, but we would | :35:07. | :35:11. | |
drive much greater efficiency. A lot of this proliferation has happened | :35:11. | :35:16. | |
in the last 30 years so the idea that we couldn't do without some of | :35:16. | :35:20. | |
this bureaucracy is crazy. Absolutely, and I think when | :35:20. | :35:30. | |
:35:30. | :35:34. | ||
everybody is tightening their belts, we should. The -- anything we where | :35:34. | :35:37. | |
can reduce the size of Government means the average small business | :35:37. | :35:41. | |
person is carrying less of a weight on their shoulders and that is how | :35:41. | :35:45. | |
we have to go from the macro to the microbe. I am trying to help people | :35:45. | :35:52. | |
to connect, to reduce the size of Government. Everybody wins, it is | :35:52. | :35:57. | |
not reducing functionality. think decisions would be made more | :35:57. | :36:04. | |
quickly as a result? The biggest fixed cost for any company has is | :36:04. | :36:11. | |
how am I going to pay the Government what I owe them through PAYE | :36:11. | :36:17. | |
national insurance. Small businesses are focused on what their pay the | :36:17. | :36:20. | |
Government, not about how they are going to take business to the | :36:20. | :36:28. | |
world. We have to reduce the cost of Government, the fixed cost of PAYE | :36:28. | :36:38. | |
national insurance. Each separate silo tries to prove its worth by | :36:38. | :36:42. | |
creating extra to prove its worth. We will reduce the regulatory | :36:42. | :36:48. | |
impact. Do you think it will get a good hearing? The Chancellor has | :36:48. | :36:53. | |
always got an open mind and I'm sure it will get looked at carefully, but | :36:53. | :37:00. | |
we must stretch the debate and look at it clearly. If you solve this | :37:00. | :37:05. | |
one, you will get an award, I'm sure. Thank you for being on the | :37:05. | :37:15. | |
:37:15. | :37:16. | ||
programme. Now, it's time for a look at the week ahead. The political | :37:16. | :37:20. | |
press pack will be spending today and most of tomorrow camped out on | :37:20. | :37:23. | |
the shores of Lough Erne in Northern Ireland where the Prime Minister, | :37:23. | :37:25. | |
David Cameron and leaders of the world's most powerful countries are | :37:25. | :37:28. | |
deep in conference. After that, Mr Cameron will be hot-footing it back | :37:28. | :37:31. | |
across the Irish Sea to take his place for Prime Minister's Questions | :37:31. | :37:34. | |
on Wednesday. A little later that evening it's George Osborne's turn | :37:34. | :37:38. | |
in the limelight with the Mansion House speech on Wednesday evening. | :37:38. | :37:41. | |
It's an annual City ritual and Chancellors often use it to set out | :37:41. | :37:48. | |
their thinking. And, of course, he'll be occupied for the remainder | :37:48. | :37:50. | |
of the week, putting the final touches to his spending review, | :37:50. | :37:53. | |
fixing spending budgets for each Government department up to 2015 | :37:53. | :37:57. | |
into 2016. He'll make the announcements in his speech next | :37:57. | :38:03. | |
week. Joining us from College Green is Michael Savage of the Times and | :38:03. | :38:13. | |
:38:13. | :38:15. | ||
Elizabeth Rigby of the Financial Times. Elizabeth, how important is | :38:15. | :38:20. | |
the G8 in terms of being a decision-making organisation now? | :38:20. | :38:26. | |
is turning more into a talking shop and there is a concrete story about | :38:26. | :38:30. | |
Syria and how those developments will turn out and whether there can | :38:30. | :38:35. | |
be any process or any agreement made, but in terms of the big issues | :38:35. | :38:40. | |
Cameron is trying to put forward, the EU trade deal and tax issues, I | :38:40. | :38:45. | |
don't think anyone is coming out thinking we will have a concrete | :38:45. | :38:52. | |
deal. You might make sure of the EU trade deal, Syria also not that | :38:52. | :38:57. | |
hopeful, not many signs of action I suspect. Let's pick up one of those | :38:57. | :39:04. | |
things and that is the campaign I David Cameron on cracking down on | :39:04. | :39:10. | |
tax havens. Do you think he will get any agreement on that? He has been | :39:10. | :39:15. | |
pushing hard on that one and there are a lot of people in the US | :39:15. | :39:19. | |
worried about tax who have been praising him. The problem is he | :39:19. | :39:23. | |
might just get ahead of everyone else in these talks. He wants to | :39:23. | :39:27. | |
have a new register which would make it much easier to find out which | :39:27. | :39:32. | |
companies belong to whom to stop them moving tax around the world and | :39:32. | :39:35. | |
offsetting their tax bill. A lot of charities want this to be a very | :39:35. | :39:41. | |
public think, and some charities are saying even over the two days of | :39:41. | :39:47. | |
this G8, �1.4 billion will be moved through tax havens so it is a huge | :39:47. | :39:54. | |
problem. Does it bring much political capital, this campaign for | :39:54. | :40:00. | |
David Cameron? I think it does. Arguably Ed Miliband has been the | :40:00. | :40:03. | |
leader on these issues about fairness in society and there is | :40:03. | :40:10. | |
always this charge with Cameron that he is one of an elite and he looks | :40:10. | :40:14. | |
after his rich friends when it comes to tax decisions. This idea of | :40:14. | :40:19. | |
clamping down on tax avoidance for everyone and making a fairer society | :40:19. | :40:24. | |
and making work pay, I think it is quite a good line for him | :40:24. | :40:28. | |
politically, but as Michael said it is very difficult to get any | :40:28. | :40:34. | |
consensus. You can only really deal with tax on a global level and that | :40:34. | :40:39. | |
is it big problem. Looking ahead to the Mansion house speech, will | :40:40. | :40:45. | |
George Osborne dare to talk about green shoots? We have seen the | :40:45. | :40:53. | |
political dangers in that one before. He will certainly one to be | :40:54. | :40:57. | |
saying something about returning those publicly owned banks into | :40:58. | :41:02. | |
private hands. There has been a lot of talks about this, the problem is | :41:02. | :41:06. | |
how you can do it, the pace at which you can do it, because we bought | :41:06. | :41:13. | |
shares in RBS at about �5, they are trading at around �3, and we are | :41:14. | :41:23. | |
:41:24. | :41:24. | ||
long way off making a profit and we could lose money. | :41:24. | :41:27. | |
Are unpaid internships an invaluable introduction to the job of you | :41:27. | :41:30. | |
dreams? Or a modern form of slave Labour? Young people work for free, | :41:30. | :41:33. | |
gratis and for nothing across the world of business and industry. But | :41:33. | :41:37. | |
is it fair? And should they be paid even though they're happy not to be? | :41:37. | :41:40. | |
Former Labour minister Hazel Blears has a view on this. This is her | :41:40. | :41:50. | |
:41:50. | :42:20. | ||
office as a paid intern. Hello, I am a paid intern and I am a paid intern | :42:20. | :42:30. | |
:42:30. | :42:30. | ||
doing Parliamentary correspondence. These two Rian scheme that I | :42:30. | :42:33. | |
initiated a couple of years ago. They get to have experience of | :42:33. | :42:42. | |
working in Parliament, they get paid a proper wage, and they get help | :42:42. | :42:47. | |
with housing costs, but many young people across the country are being | :42:47. | :42:57. | |
:42:57. | :43:00. | ||
exploited by unscrupulous employers. They are essentially free labour, | :43:00. | :43:10. | |
:43:10. | :43:11. | ||
and most young people across the country are excluded. On paid | :43:11. | :43:14. | |
internships are modern-day scandal and they are particularly rife in | :43:14. | :43:17. | |
the fields where young people are desperate to get a foothold, in | :43:18. | :43:22. | |
fashion, media, journalism, and until recently in politics as well, | :43:22. | :43:26. | |
and that is why I am calling on my colleagues in Parliament to make a | :43:27. | :43:32. | |
pledge to pay their interns. We have got to take a lead in the House of | :43:32. | :43:36. | |
Commons if we are going to encourage others to follow. I also want to | :43:36. | :43:40. | |
make the advertisements of unpaid internships unlawful. In British | :43:40. | :43:49. | |
law, you are worker and entitled to the national minimum wage, and it | :43:49. | :43:54. | |
should not be allowed to advertise unlawful jobs. We need to help young | :43:55. | :44:00. | |
people whose dreams have been dashed because they cannot afford to do an | :44:00. | :44:04. | |
on paid internships. We need to make sure unpaid internships are bound to | :44:04. | :44:12. | |
give people a decent start to their working lives. | :44:12. | :44:15. | |
Well Hazel Blears is with us and she's joined by the other two | :44:15. | :44:18. | |
members of today's Monday panel of MPs - Andrea Leadsom of the | :44:18. | :44:20. | |
Conservatives and the Liberal Democrat MP Annette Brooke. Hazel | :44:20. | :44:27. | |
Blears, what are the statistics? How many interns in Parliament are paid? | :44:27. | :44:30. | |
About 18 months ago the vast majority of interns were not paid | :44:31. | :44:38. | |
and in the last two years we have seen fantastic progress in politics. | :44:38. | :44:44. | |
That recent? Yes, now it is only a handful of MPs and I am saying today | :44:44. | :44:47. | |
that in order for us to ask other businesses to do the right thing, we | :44:47. | :44:52. | |
have got to show some leadership on this issue and say we are committed | :44:52. | :45:02. | |
:45:02. | :45:05. | ||
to paying our interns. We are moving in the right direction but there are | :45:05. | :45:08. | |
still a handful of MPs advertising for internships up to 12 months on | :45:08. | :45:10. | |
paid to do diaries, research, fundraising. That handful, is that | :45:10. | :45:15. | |
across the political spectrum? the handful I have left, I haven't | :45:15. | :45:21. | |
seen many Labour wants, I have to say. Again, they are minority now | :45:22. | :45:26. | |
and if you look back to a few years ago it was a culture. I'm not | :45:26. | :45:29. | |
blaming my colleagues because everybody did it, but in future | :45:29. | :45:34. | |
let's make sure we do the right thing. Do you believe all interns | :45:34. | :45:44. | |
:45:44. | :45:49. | ||
should be paid? Do you agree I agree with what Hazel is saying, but some | :45:49. | :45:53. | |
should have a weeks' work experience. That's fine. Do you have | :45:53. | :46:01. | |
an intern? A fully paid apprentice. Again, whilst I agree with Hazel, I | :46:01. | :46:06. | |
would say apprenticeships are even better. Every year, I take a sixth | :46:06. | :46:11. | |
form lever from a school many my constituency, they get an NVQ level | :46:11. | :46:15. | |
four and some real Parliamentary experience on their CV. Do you have | :46:15. | :46:20. | |
an intern? I do, indeed.Do you pay? I've been paying for a number of | :46:20. | :46:25. | |
years now in wealth. As you will have probably researched. It's been | :46:25. | :46:28. | |
successful. I take them on a short-term basis, but if they | :46:28. | :46:32. | |
haven't got a job at the end of three or four months and it makes | :46:32. | :46:36. | |
sense to extend for another month, I do that, so I'm flexible on that, | :46:36. | :46:41. | |
but try to use Parliamentary money wisely so don't have an intern for | :46:41. | :46:46. | |
example during the summer weeks because I wouldn't be giving them a | :46:46. | :46:50. | |
good experience frankly. Most MPs it seems do they pair interns. What | :46:50. | :46:54. | |
levels are we talking about? I was going to make the point that it's | :46:54. | :46:59. | |
great you have an apprentice, but the levels for them are very low. On | :46:59. | :47:04. | |
my scheme, I've raised nearly �500,000, paid �18,000 a year, they | :47:04. | :47:08. | |
get help with housing and a person development programme and I worry | :47:08. | :47:11. | |
because of the way rent levels are in London that if you are not paying | :47:11. | :47:15. | |
a decent wage, 95% of people from the rest of the UK can't possibly | :47:15. | :47:19. | |
even entertain the idea of working in London. What do you say to that? | :47:19. | :47:24. | |
You know, my apprentices come from Northamptonshire, work most time in | :47:24. | :47:28. | |
Northampton, they come to London a day a week and travel costs are paid | :47:28. | :47:31. | |
for. For them, it's completely brilliant. They tend to be an | :47:32. | :47:36. | |
A-level school lever, either deciding to work and see if they | :47:36. | :47:40. | |
want to go to university or they've decided not to go down that route. | :47:40. | :47:46. | |
It's a win-win. For a school lever, it gives them a years' worth of | :47:46. | :47:50. | |
office experience. Should it be unlawful, as Hazel Blears suggested, | :47:50. | :47:54. | |
to advertise unpaid internship? think that's a difficult one, isn't | :47:54. | :48:01. | |
it? I absolutely agree with the moral high ground because I found it | :48:01. | :48:05. | |
just unacceptable to carry on with the practice that was existing when | :48:05. | :48:09. | |
I first became an inspect. But you wouldn't go as far as what Hazel is | :48:09. | :48:14. | |
suggesting? I would really want to put as much pressure as possible on. | :48:14. | :48:19. | |
If I could just see there might be some exceptions, that's all I'm | :48:19. | :48:25. | |
saying. I would not go back to any form of paying just expenses, as I | :48:25. | :48:28. | |
have done years ago. It's much better to be paid and to make sure | :48:28. | :48:32. | |
it's a quality experience and that you see your person into a job. | :48:33. | :48:38. | |
Which leads me to finally, even though you are agreed on this issue, | :48:38. | :48:41. | |
unpaid interns whether they are doing a job that's not worthwhile | :48:41. | :48:45. | |
and may not lead to anything, doesn't seem very fair. But, having | :48:45. | :48:48. | |
exceptions where you could interns that are unpaid but there is the | :48:48. | :48:52. | |
likelihood that it might lead to a job, surely that undermines your | :48:52. | :48:57. | |
call for the advertising to be unlawful of unpaid internships? | :48:57. | :49:02. | |
don't agree at all. Four weeks' work experience fine, travel expenses | :49:02. | :49:05. | |
lunches whatever. After that, you are asking people to work long-term | :49:05. | :49:10. | |
for no pay in this country and actually if you are working set | :49:10. | :49:14. | |
hours and have set duties, you are a worker under the law and are | :49:14. | :49:23. | |
entitled to be paid. It's not just politics, it's the media and it's | :49:23. | :49:28. | |
rife in music. You need leadership. There are good people in the media, | :49:28. | :49:32. | |
good magazines and journalists. People like Deloittes and PCC, they | :49:32. | :49:39. | |
pay their interns and as politicians we have to show leadership. I'm | :49:39. | :49:45. | |
delighted we have cross party agreement. What about you? We've got | :49:45. | :49:48. | |
to get young people into work, we shouldn't legislate. If they are | :49:48. | :49:51. | |
offered a job and choose to take it, they should have that job rather | :49:51. | :49:54. | |
than not take it. It's a huge mistake. The kind of cultural | :49:54. | :49:58. | |
pressure, the fact we were talking about it now, the fact the behaviour | :49:58. | :50:02. | |
is changing is all great, to legislate would be to go too far. | :50:02. | :50:07. | |
You run the risk that the only time anyone gets work experience is to do | :50:07. | :50:10. | |
nothing and to sit around and make tea. Actually, young people do want | :50:10. | :50:14. | |
to get on to the job ladder, you should give them the chance to do | :50:14. | :50:17. | |
that. But they shouldn't have to work for free, not in the 21st | :50:17. | :50:21. | |
century. We'll leave it there. Labourisation mantra was education, | :50:21. | :50:25. | |
education, education. Over 15 years on from Tony Blair's famous phrase, | :50:25. | :50:29. | |
what is Labour's policy on education and how is it different to the | :50:29. | :50:34. | |
coalition's? This morning, Steven Twigg has been spelling out in a | :50:34. | :50:38. | |
speech Labour's plans. They want to give all schools some of the | :50:38. | :50:41. | |
freedoms currently enjoyed by academies and free schools. This | :50:41. | :50:45. | |
will mean wider discretion over the curriculum, the freedom to change | :50:45. | :50:48. | |
the length of the school term and school control over procurement. | :50:48. | :50:54. | |
This is what he said earlier. We know that giving schools more | :50:54. | :50:59. | |
freedom over how they teach and how they run and organise their schools | :50:59. | :51:05. | |
can help to raise standards. Innovation excites, it can uncover | :51:05. | :51:11. | |
new ideas and breathe life town the system. Innovation challenges the | :51:11. | :51:15. | |
historic inheritances that mean schools do things that way simply | :51:15. | :51:21. | |
because they always have done. So why should we deny these freedoms | :51:21. | :51:26. | |
to thousands of schools? All schools should have them, not just academies | :51:26. | :51:31. | |
and free schools. Stephen Twigg there. Hazel Blears, | :51:31. | :51:34. | |
Labour has finally and officially adopted the free schools policy of | :51:34. | :51:38. | |
the coalition? I wouldn't go as far as that. I'm delighted by what | :51:38. | :51:42. | |
Stephen said today, he wants all schools to be academies, not free | :51:42. | :51:47. | |
schools. The academy programme was started under Tony Blair and it was | :51:47. | :51:51. | |
about making the poor school schools up to the standards of the rest of | :51:51. | :51:55. | |
the schools and I think what Stephen's done today is, he's said | :51:55. | :51:59. | |
he wants to give all schools the freedom on the curriculum and how to | :51:59. | :52:03. | |
organise themselves because that's showing to give teachers that extra | :52:03. | :52:07. | |
incentive to go out there and do the very best they can. I'm delighted. | :52:07. | :52:12. | |
And in a way, you supported whole heartedly the academies programme? | :52:12. | :52:16. | |
Yes. I come back to the issue that Labour won't reverse free schools? | :52:16. | :52:20. | |
Stephen's said the existing free schools will continue to operate, | :52:20. | :52:24. | |
because you don't want to disrupt children's education and any in the | :52:24. | :52:27. | |
pipeline will be funded. Free schools came about partly because of | :52:27. | :52:30. | |
parents' frustration at the low standards that there were and if you | :52:30. | :52:34. | |
raise standards inle all schools by giving them freedom and having | :52:34. | :52:37. | |
academies, there 'll be very little demand for free schools. So you | :52:37. | :52:42. | |
think in the end that somehow the free schools will wither and die? | :52:42. | :52:45. | |
Probably because I genuinely feel they've come about because parents | :52:45. | :52:48. | |
can't get their children into a decent school so they set up their | :52:48. | :52:52. | |
own. Stephen's talked about parent-led academies, there's not | :52:52. | :52:56. | |
much difference in terms of the ethos we are trying to create. | :52:56. | :52:59. | |
don't think there's any difference between parent-led academies and | :52:59. | :53:04. | |
free schools. You talked about freedom in the curriculum, that's to | :53:04. | :53:08. | |
some extent what free schools and academies are doing? There is a | :53:08. | :53:11. | |
nuance and you are right, it's the role of the local education | :53:11. | :53:15. | |
authority. Stephen said the LEA should be able to intervene where | :53:15. | :53:17. | |
schools are struggle and failing because they have a responsibility | :53:18. | :53:21. | |
to the people in the community. That's right, whatever you call | :53:21. | :53:26. | |
yourself, a free school or academy, the LEA should be able to say we'll | :53:26. | :53:29. | |
help you get back on the rails. you think they should continue to | :53:29. | :53:33. | |
have that role? No. Perhaps one of the greatest achievements of the | :53:33. | :53:37. | |
coalition Government has been the academy and free schools programme. | :53:37. | :53:41. | |
Recently, Sir Michael Wilshere came out and said schools continue to | :53:41. | :53:46. | |
fail the brightest, they are not aspirational, we are in a global | :53:46. | :53:49. | |
race for better education and it's interesting that Stephen Twigg is | :53:50. | :53:52. | |
saying innovation and freedom excites professionals, so let's do | :53:52. | :53:57. | |
more of it. It sounds to me like a reversal sausage machine whereby | :53:57. | :54:01. | |
where making all schools academies, somehow we are capturing them all | :54:01. | :54:04. | |
back under the local council umbrella as they used to be and I | :54:04. | :54:07. | |
think that would be a retro grade step. I think they are doing | :54:07. | :54:11. | |
fantastically well. What is your response to Stephen | :54:11. | :54:14. | |
Twigg saying the freedom should include a longer school day or maybe | :54:14. | :54:19. | |
a longer school term? I don't have a problem with those freedoms. In | :54:19. | :54:23. | |
fact, the Liberal Democrats in their manifesto were actually saying, if | :54:23. | :54:26. | |
freedoms were good for the Labour academies, then they ought to be | :54:26. | :54:32. | |
good for all schools in terms of the curriculum and matters like that, so | :54:32. | :54:36. | |
I'm actually finding a couple of lines I'm absolutely agreeing with | :54:36. | :54:40. | |
them. What we are facing now, whatever | :54:40. | :54:43. | |
one's views on academies and free schools, it would be just | :54:43. | :54:47. | |
irresponsible to try to switch the clock back from everybody's point of | :54:47. | :54:53. | |
view. But personally, I know that I want my party to be thinking through | :54:53. | :54:58. | |
very carefully what is the role of the local authority in this future | :54:58. | :55:02. | |
situation. If you take it to its logical conclusion, you have all | :55:02. | :55:07. | |
academies, all broken free, then actually, your authority, where | :55:07. | :55:11. | |
parents go to to actually make complaints and so on, comes back to | :55:11. | :55:14. | |
central Government. It's like having one local education authority based | :55:14. | :55:19. | |
in the Government department and I don't think that's right. | :55:19. | :55:22. | |
ALL SPEAK AT ONCE That's exactly what we are saying. | :55:22. | :55:25. | |
The local education authority should have the right for all schools, | :55:25. | :55:28. | |
whatever they are called, to intervene when things go wrong. | :55:28. | :55:33. | |
That's right. And free schools. But that's not going to happen, is it? | :55:33. | :55:37. | |
But the responsibility is to their children and families. The teachers' | :55:37. | :55:42. | |
unions, are they happy for a longer school day and term? There will of | :55:42. | :55:45. | |
to be negotiations, but increasingly, everybody's pretty | :55:45. | :55:49. | |
much agreed that having the long-terms and then long school | :55:49. | :55:53. | |
holidays, if you have parents that go to work, it's you expensive to | :55:53. | :55:56. | |
pay for childcare and the evidence is that poorer children fall behind | :55:56. | :55:59. | |
during the long holidays because they don't have the money to go to | :55:59. | :56:02. | |
summer schools and do all the extracurricular education. It would | :56:03. | :56:08. | |
be a great idea to have more terms and shorter school holidays. Coming | :56:08. | :56:13. | |
from a teacher's family, let me put the teacher's viewpoint here. | :56:13. | :56:19. | |
you a qualified teacher? Yes, I am, as is my daughter and husband, so I | :56:19. | :56:24. | |
speak with some passion here that when you have change, it's really | :56:24. | :56:30. | |
important that the changes are at the right pace and you carry your | :56:30. | :56:33. | |
workforce with you. We'd say that in all areas, whatever we are talking | :56:33. | :56:37. | |
about. There's no doubt about it, there are unhappy teachers at the | :56:37. | :56:43. | |
moment and there's a lot of work to be done with teachers. But, and... | :56:43. | :56:48. | |
Do you think Michael Gove's moved far too quickly? What I'll say about | :56:48. | :56:52. | |
Michael, his motivations are first class, I really understand what he's | :56:52. | :56:57. | |
trying to achieve. I agree with Andrea on that. I wouldn't go about | :56:57. | :57:04. | |
it in exactly the same fashion, but standards have to be raised. Michael | :57:04. | :57:08. | |
is so passionate about turning around education and the political | :57:08. | :57:11. | |
life cycle doesn't give you very long. If he's been so passionate | :57:11. | :57:14. | |
that he's not taken everyone with him on day up with, you have to give | :57:14. | :57:17. | |
him the chance and the benefit of the doubt because the changes are | :57:17. | :57:21. | |
going to be so beneficial. right. Can I briefly, before we | :57:21. | :57:27. | |
finish, talk about Labour's report at the weekend, or their policy to | :57:27. | :57:32. | |
sack unqualified teachers? Do you think that is a good idea? If you | :57:32. | :57:36. | |
say that every teacher who's not qualified is somehow a bad teacher, | :57:36. | :57:42. | |
I think that's a bit of a broad sweep. That's what Labour's prop | :57:42. | :57:48. | |
posing, 5,000 teachers who haven't got the qualifications will go? | :57:48. | :57:52. | |
danger is that you will have free schools from teachers who have no | :57:52. | :57:56. | |
qualifications. We have to Bo worried about that and need to be | :57:56. | :58:00. | |
careful how it's worked out. I don't believe in sacking people. | :58:00. | :58:02. | |
Qualifications and training is important and we need to rethink | :58:02. | :58:08. | |
that. I've taught in an independent school where everybody is not | :58:08. | :58:11. | |
qualified and that does work. All right. Thank you. We have just | :58:11. | :58:15. | |
got time before we go to do the answer to our quiz. I don't know if | :58:15. | :58:19. | |
you remember it, it was change or setting up new super prisons, doing | :58:19. | :58:23. | |
away with establishments like Wormwood Scrubs and holt hoeway. | :58:23. | :58:27. | |
What would happen to the old buildings? Would they be turned into | :58:27. | :58:34. | |
boutiques, hotels? They have a Reds didn'tial provision, they are used | :58:34. | :58:39. | |
to looking after people. It is boutique hotels and not farms. Thank | :58:39. | :58:43. |