18/06/2013 Daily Politics


18/06/2013

Jo Coburn is joined by former Labour home secretary Lord Reid to discuss all the political stories of the day.


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Daily Politics. David Cameron and leaders from the G8 group of

:00:39.:00:42.

countries continue their summit in Northern Ireland, with Syria top of

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the agenda. But can the Prime Minister persuade Vladimir Putin to

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back his plan for peace? The Business Secretary hails the

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Government's record on apprenticeships and forecasts that

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they'll contribute over �3 billion a year to the economy within ten

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years. Vince Cable joins us live. As the coalition's changes to the

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NHS bed down, is now really a good time for more radical thinking on

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the health service and social care? The think tank the Kings Fund think

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so. They'll be here to explain why. And we'll hear from one academic who

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says some high-achieving politicians share character traits with

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psychopaths. And that's a good thing All that in the next hour. And with

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us for the whole programme today is the Labour peer John Reid, who in

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the last Labour government held a grand total of eight cabinet posts,

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ending up as Home Secretary until 2007. He's now chair of the

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Institute for Security and Resilience Studies. Welcome to the

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Daily Politics. Let's start with the G8 summit in Northern Ireland which

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continues today. Earlier this morning David Cameron and the other

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G8 leaders gathered together for what's known as a family photo. But

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it hasn't been all smiles, with Russian President Vladimir Putin

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making it clear he doesn't agree with the British PM on the issue of

:02:10.:02:20.
:02:20.:02:30.

intervention in Syria. Downing Street wish to have a peace

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conference today, but the big question is whether President Assad

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will agree to step down. Is there a scenario where Russia can be cut out

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of the G8 over Syria? I don't think so. And it is not just Russia, other

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people at the G8 hold similar views. I think it is important to

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realise that the Russian position is not just self-interest as regards

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the long-standing relationship with Syria which, of course, is true, and

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the Mediterranean. I would also guess that Putin would reckon that

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one of the greatest threat to Russia is Islamist terrorism, and

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particularly the likes of Chechnya and the southern flank of Russia.

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His view, basically, it's better the devil we know than the devil we

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don't. We don't know what will happen after President Assad goes,

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if he does. Except, at the moment, people are saying he is butchering

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his own people, killing them intends, that can't continue. It is

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not better the devil you know. not justifying it, I am explaining

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the Russian position. If you explain that inflamed the situation further

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by bringing more arms, it might inflame a significant jihadist

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presence in Syria. Syria is not just self-contained, it is a battlefield

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in what is becoming a great sunny-macro/sheer-macro conflict.

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The Alawite 's are a minority further within that minority. But

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they are in the majority in Iraq, and in the non-Arab nation of Iran

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next door. Hezbollah are sheer based. The majority in Syria, they

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are Sunni and backed by Sunni nations like Saudi Arabia. But do

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you agree that we can't allow a situation where the opposition is

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exterminated before they even have a chance by the arms flowing into

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support Assad noes regime. Asad is behaving monstrously. Their element

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within the opposition to Asad who will operate in just such a

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monstrous fashion if they ever take control. They are blowing up

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innocent civilians through the world. The key question is not by

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doing nothing to you avoid responsibility, you don't, right?

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There are consequences, moral and otherwise, of doing mopping. But the

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key question is by pumping in more arms, do you actually have an

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outcome which is better. I suspect we will get an agreement from the GH

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which says humanitarian, diplomatic and political moves, there may be

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difficulty over the wording about whether the regime and Assad must

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stay, but I think it will stop short of any agreement, certainly with

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Russia, to put in extra weaponry. Let's turn to another major

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international story - the news that NATO has handed over security for

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the whole of Afghanistan for the first time since the Taliban were

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ousted in 2001. At a ceremony in Kabul, President Hamid Karzai said

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that, from Wednesday, our own security and military forces will

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lead all the security activities. International troops will remain in

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Afghanistan until the end of 2014, providing military back-up when

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needed. Are they going to cope, the Afghan security services? I think

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they will cope. They won't guarantee that there will not be continual

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acts of terrorism. This is another battlefield in this great front. Six

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years ago they had some 40,000 in terms of numbers, they've now got

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350,000. They are a significant size. In terms of quality, my

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understanding is that they have now become roughly equivalent to the

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Army of a developing nation, so they are not as good as the advanced,

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well-trained and well-equipped armies of the West that have been a

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nice so far. But at some stage the handover has two take place, because

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they need autonomy over their military, as well as politically.

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don't have exact numbers, but there are Afghans already leaving the

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army, and the worry is that the Taliban will just step in. How

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important are the talks that have been mentioned with the Taliban in

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Qatar? If I had a criticism over the government over the last few years,

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I don't think it did enough on the political front. I don't think it

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made sense to announce publicly that we are leaving militarily, then we

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will start talking. We should have been talking to those allied to the

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Taliban with whom it was possible, and then announce a leaving date as

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a result of the politics. Not saying, we are off, will you now sit

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down and talk? The Taliban have an old saying, you might have the

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watches but we have the time. If you announce we are going at a certain

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date, it's... Weakens the hand?It is not to say that a political

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solution is not the ideal, it is. The Taliban are not a homogenous

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group. Now time for Now it's time for our daily quiz.

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Something a little different. The question for today is: According to

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our guest John Reid, which of the following is the most likely result

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of the 2015 general election? I hope you have your crystal ball! Is it a

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Labour majority, a Labour/Lib Dem coalition, a Conservative/Lib Dem

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coalition or a Conservative majority? At the end of the show,

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John will give us the correct answer.

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There's just a week to go before the Chancellor outlines the Government's

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spending plans for the year after the next election. George Osborne is

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looking to cut around �11.5 billion from public spending, and one area

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which is likely to face another round of belt-tightening is local

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government. Central government funding makes up around 40% of local

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government budgets in England. Over the three years from 2011/12 to

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2014/15 this part of their budget has been squeezed by 33% in real

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terms. That's led to protests from local government chiefs, who warn of

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dire consequences if budgets are reduced further. The Local

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Government Association has warned, some councils will not be able to

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deliver the existing range of services. The LGA has called on the

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Treasury to lift all restrictions on council tax in the spending review.

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At the moment, councils are encouraged to keep council tax rises

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to less than 2%. But could local government make more savings without

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affecting services? Last night, Channel 4's Dispatches programme

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investigated waste in local authorities. It found that over �30

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million has been spent by 374 councils on chauffeur-driven cars

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for council officials over the last five years. The programme also

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discovered that councils spent �3.7m on foreign trips to places like

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Jamaica and South Africa over the last five years. With us now is the

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Local Government Minister Brandon Lewis.

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Is all spending on cars and foreign trips just frivolous, in your mind?

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I am sure some spending will be done appropriately, to go to places and

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see people, but we have to look at what is spent and is it

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appropriate. �6,000 to see the World Cup, I don't think many taxpayers

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would see that as reasonable. might be the exception. If you take

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the figures, �30 million spent by 374 councils on chauffeur driven

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cars, that is �16,000 per cancel per year -- per council per year, so

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than the figures don't look so bad. That is why it is important to look

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at details and why local transparency is so important, so

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that local taxpayers can see what is being spent, what on and whether it

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is appropriate. Transparency exist. It is probably one of the clearest

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areas where you can get figures. It looks as if you are using all

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referring to blanket figures that councils are being irresponsible.

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Let's look at foreign trips, can they ever be justified? This is a

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call not from government, from Dispatchers. We are saying that the

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Local Government Minister look very carefully, there is over �2 billion

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of uncollected council tax, �2 billion in fraud, �60 billion in

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reserves, over �220 billion in assets, of which �2 billion is

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listed as surplus and another �1 billion is up for sale. There is a

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huge amount in the system that we would like to see better used.

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look at the foreign trips. One spokesperson said, this is trimming

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up business. Rather than being a waste, people are coming back with

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cash for investment. Another example, social workers going to

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countries to visit relatives in the care of the borough to see whether

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children can be returned to relatives in Jamaica. It is more

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subtle and nuanced than just saying, is this waste? That is why

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transparency is important. Councils and quite rightly make the case

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about what they think is appropriate, and the beauty of

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democracy is that everyone gets a chance to have their view. But you

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feel that local government is still wasting money? Two there are some

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councils doing great, innovative work, sharing management and

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outsourcing. �61 billion a year for local government, we can still go

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further. We asked somebody from a council to come on, but they

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couldn't, but local government Association spokesman said that

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everybody working in the public sector is required to spend

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taxpayers money at Canterbury. The details of expenses and allowances

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claimed by councillors are published online, as well as all spending over

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�500. What are you hoping to reveal? We brought in the transparency

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rules, we are very proud of that. Local people can see what is being

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spent. We need to make sure that money spent appropriately. We have

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councils who have put up council tax and allowances. We don't think that

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is what taxpayers want to see locally. What do you say about the

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claim that Labour councils in particular are putting up council

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tax, and they don't think it is justified? I was an MP for 25 years,

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and the vast majority of councils of all parties to a thankless task,

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very often, in the frontline of politics. They can't come off to

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Westminster for four days a week, they are steeped in locality and

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they are now more transparent than anyone else. Of course there will be

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misusers in any organisation. We have seen it with MPs, the

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government and so on. Given the degree of transparency, I think that

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some of the examples here of the types of cars hired and so on, it

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would be sensible to recognise that in a time of financial austerity you

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leave yourself open, and the first thing to ask is how will this play

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in the front page of the Sunday Post? Some of them are Jaguars and

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Bentleys as opposed to other, cheaper makes of car. Let's look at

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spending cuts. The LGA and individual councils are saying they

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just can't take any more cuts to expenditure, it will affect

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frontline services. Are you prepared to take that risk? Last year, local

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authorities had a reduction in spending power of 1.3%. Most people

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out in the world would say that saving 1.3% is quite achievable and

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we should try to do it. Councils have to make sure that cracking down

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on fraud and error, collecting council tax and using the reserves

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they have built up in the best possible way to develop for the

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future and to deliver good local services. So you think 's can be

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made without risk to frontline services? -- you think at can be

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made? �61 billion a year of procurement, saving a few % makes a

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big difference to local taxpayers. It is about making sure that the tax

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payers' money is well spent. John Reid, councils that we have had on

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the programme before cover different areas with different problems.

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Bradley Lewis always talks about councils in the round in England,

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but there are inner-city areas that will have bigger problems with,

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perhaps, social care than a rule area. I think people recognise that

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there has to be some greater efficiency continually, in all

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services. You think they can't take more cuts? No, what I'm saying is

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that while I agree there's always room for efficiency and looking at

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that, I think the Government would be better to be up front and just to

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say, yes, we understand that even with that, there might be a

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deterioration in services. I think it's a bit hypocritical to say, yes,

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we are reducing services in given areas because of the austerity in

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which we're in. People recognise that, but when it comes to local

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Government, we'll not only cut, not only ask them to be efficient, but

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we'll pass responsibilities to them that they didn't previously have and

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then we'll pretend that this is going to happen in a way that there

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won't be a deterioration. There will be a deterioration in services here.

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And the responsibility for that is shared and particularly if there is

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less money coming from central Government. I don't think that needs

:16:54.:17:01.

a great cull pability, a great admission of doing things wrong. Cut

:17:01.:17:05.

backs are taking place in every department of Government. You be

:17:05.:17:12.

more honest? We are being very clear and honest. What about a

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deterioration in services? We have seen public satisfaction with

:17:16.:17:20.

council services going up. That's because councils are being

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innovative and doing more for less. That's a good thing. There are

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councils out there doing great work in that regard. It's important to

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note that it's not fair to say urban areas will need to spend more than

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rural areas. Some rural areas will argue because of sparsity there are

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other pressures. There is a different type of pressure and

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response they have to give. That's why it's important that these

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decisions are made locally by local authorities that understand and care

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about their local area. Thank you very much.

:17:49.:17:53.

Now this morning, the chief executive and chairman of Lloyds

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banking group have been questioned by the Treasury Select Committee

:17:58.:18:03.

about the failed sale of 632 bank branches to the Co-op. A deal was

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instruct with the Co-operative Group last summer but has unravelled after

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it emerged the group is facing a capital black hole of up to �1

:18:11.:18:16.

billion. The Co-op pulled out of the deal in April and announced a rescue

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plan yesterday morning. The Lloyds chairman was asked whether

:18:21.:18:25.

politicians pressured them into accepting the bid? Is it true, as

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has been alleged, that the decision to a award Verde to the Co-op was

:18:32.:18:36.

made on political rather than commercial grounds? No. It is not.

:18:36.:18:42.

What the board looked at was financial and execution, the ability

:18:42.:18:49.

to execute. Those were the only two things that we looked at. There was

:18:49.:18:59.
:18:59.:19:01.

no political pressure? Yoo no. And no indirect contact via others?

:19:01.:19:08.

No direct contact either to me or, I think, to Antonio, no the other way

:19:08.:19:14.

around. Well, we've been joined by the Conservative MP David Davis who

:19:14.:19:18.

chaired the future banking commission in 2010. What went wrong?

:19:18.:19:24.

Oh, so many things went wrong. I mean, today's evidence is incredible

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really. They're supposed to have done due diligence. That's so you

:19:30.:19:34.

see the facts. When they were doing that, the Co-op was losing 50

:19:34.:19:40.

million a month. Writing off 300 million of debts. They clearly

:19:40.:19:43.

didn't do the work. When you do this sort of business, you look for red

:19:43.:19:50.

flags. This had more red flags than a minefield. You say there wasn't

:19:50.:19:54.

dew -- due diligence. So not enough work was done rather than they did

:19:54.:20:00.

the work but still wept ahead with what looked like a rotten deal?

:20:00.:20:04.

committee was quite gentle with them today. The Co-op had trouble taken

:20:04.:20:07.

over the Britannia Building Society, that was failing. It was having

:20:07.:20:12.

trouble with its profit making. It was losing money. Now, we know, it's

:20:12.:20:18.

1. 5 billion in the hole. This is only six months after the deal was

:20:18.:20:22.

struck. What's changed in the last six months? Next to nothing. Either

:20:22.:20:26.

they did a terrible job of due diligence or they did a loose one

:20:26.:20:30.

because they were encouraged to dot deal. You don't believe them when

:20:30.:20:33.

they say there was no political pressure? I think there's something

:20:33.:20:38.

wrong with this deal. That's what I know. I can't tell you, because I

:20:38.:20:41.

wasn't in the room. But there's something wrong with the deal.

:20:41.:20:44.

due know there was something wrong with the deal once it became clear

:20:45.:20:52.

there was a 1. . 5 billion black hole in the Co-op's finances, which

:20:52.:20:54.

does beggar belief that no-one spotted that. They're inside, we're

:20:54.:20:59.

not. When it finished, the other bidder wrote to me. When I got the

:20:59.:21:02.

letter I thought well, this might just be a sore loser. I handed it

:21:02.:21:08.

over to the PAC just in case. What's happened is everything he predicted

:21:08.:21:15.

then, the failure of every part of the system has come true. That

:21:15.:21:21.

letter that he sent to me and others was given to chairman Bischoff in

:21:21.:21:27.

January of last year. What do you think? Well, let me just say at the

:21:27.:21:32.

beginning, I'm disappointed that the mutual status of the Co-op is now

:21:32.:21:39.

under threat. Because I really believe in muchuals. The Government

:21:39.:21:48.

-- mutuals. The Government has expressed this as well. This looks

:21:48.:21:50.

complete completely botched. At worst, there's a whiff in the air.

:21:50.:21:52.

There are two questions, the first is - does the question have a

:21:52.:21:57.

strategic interest in the banks that it's nationalised and the stability

:21:57.:22:02.

of the economy in. A general sense, yes. We might disagree in that

:22:02.:22:06.

because David is more of a Libertarian on these issues. The

:22:06.:22:11.

real question is in this instance, was there a nod and a wink, was

:22:11.:22:20.

there a political decision taken to en encourage these events to happen

:22:20.:22:26.

which in retrospect seem very, very popped, at the least, and possibly

:22:26.:22:32.

catastrophic. Who would benefit? don't disgree over the importance of

:22:32.:22:38.

the Government having a strategic view. But that should have been up

:22:38.:22:43.

front. There's a rule of law problem when you let two people bid if

:22:43.:22:47.

you're only going to allow one to win. There are issues with that.

:22:47.:22:51.

It's right we have an interest. Otherwise the economy won't recover.

:22:51.:22:56.

Why not the alternative bid? The evidence this morning, as the chief

:22:56.:22:59.

executive and chair of Lloyds said the money wasn't there in NBNK's

:22:59.:23:05.

bid. True. That is simply not true. It was going to be there in escrow

:23:05.:23:10.

up to �730 million. I know he said that. It's not the case. Similarly,

:23:10.:23:14.

it said the bid wasn't underwritten. Who provided the underwriting for

:23:14.:23:19.

the Co-op? Lloyds did. This bid was put in by the biggest players in the

:23:19.:23:26.

City, Aviva, foreign and colonial investment. All sorts of big

:23:26.:23:29.

players, who wouldn't have set it up unless they intended to fund it.

:23:29.:23:38.

What now for Lloyds? They have got to do this branch sell off. They

:23:38.:23:42.

will do an IPO. Nobody involved in this decision should have any share

:23:42.:23:46.

options in that float, nobody. Because I don't want anybody who has

:23:46.:23:49.

made this much of a botch of it to profit from it. Though that's

:23:49.:23:52.

probably not what the Treasury is thinking. Well, I think the Treasury

:23:52.:23:55.

may have trouble with the House of Commons when we come to that

:23:55.:23:59.

position. ?Oh, yeah. These people have clearly maed a mess of. This

:23:59.:24:03.

they've damaged one of the great institutions of our country, the

:24:03.:24:08.

Co-op in doing so... Well is the Co-op damaged? Somebody might think

:24:08.:24:13.

it's a great deal that it's going to save the bank, including the chief,

:24:13.:24:17.

which is unsurprising. Joot Co-op has been a very successful

:24:17.:24:21.

organisation. Yes it needed to modernise and so on. It did it on

:24:21.:24:26.

mutual basis. It was probably the preeminent mutual society. It wasn't

:24:26.:24:30.

on the Stock Exchange. It wasn't just controlled by a group of small

:24:30.:24:34.

shareholders and so on. In that sense, yes, this has damaged it.

:24:34.:24:37.

Reputationally it will damage it as well. Especially since they're

:24:38.:24:42.

talking about the bond holders and that, many of whom may well be

:24:42.:24:48.

pensioners having to take a cut on their investment and get cut back.

:24:48.:24:51.

There will be short-term loss for long-term gain in that sense? Do you

:24:51.:24:56.

think the culture of bank will change? Of the Co-op?Yes. Because

:24:56.:25:01.

shares will be owned by commercial investors? John's right. You need

:25:01.:25:06.

all sorts, you need an ecosystem. You need limited liability companies

:25:06.:25:09.

and mutual companies in a stable system. We have lost one of the part

:25:09.:25:13.

system. That's a bad thing. , thank you very much. We'll no doubt return

:25:13.:25:18.

to this in the future. You might be forgiven for thinking there is very

:25:18.:25:23.

little new left to say about the NHS in England, after recent reforms and

:25:23.:25:27.

endless debate. But the leading health think-tank the King's Fund

:25:27.:25:34.

has found another issue to discuss. Today, they're launching a

:25:34.:25:36.

commission into health and social care questioning whether the

:25:36.:25:40.

boundary between the two needs to be redrawn. The King's Fund says the

:25:40.:25:44.

health system faces a series of challenges this century, including

:25:45.:25:50.

increasing costs of care, a growing and ageing population. The current

:25:50.:25:54.

system, established after World War II, has remained unchanged with the

:25:54.:25:59.

NHS free at the point of use, while social care is means tested. At the

:25:59.:26:03.

moment, some aspects of social care are paid for by local authorities,

:26:03.:26:08.

not from the NHS budget. As we've also discussed, local councils are

:26:08.:26:11.

warning further cuts to their budgets will increase pressure on

:26:11.:26:15.

the services they provide. Elderly people are also expected to

:26:15.:26:18.

contribute to the costs of their own social care. Although the Government

:26:18.:26:27.

plans to cap this at �72,000 from 2016. The King's Fund also questions

:26:27.:26:30.

whether the relationship between health and social care staff is good

:26:30.:26:35.

enough. The Government has made a commitment to have a fully joined up

:26:35.:26:39.

health and social care service by 2018. Well, we've been joined by

:26:39.:26:42.

Chris Ham from the King's Fund and by the minister for social care,

:26:42.:26:48.

Norman Lamb. Welcome to both of you. Why is this review needed? We seem

:26:48.:26:53.

to know most of what I've said. What are we going to learn? We believe

:26:53.:26:55.

now is the time to do a fundamental review, not just of how the currents

:26:55.:26:59.

system works but whether it's the right system for the future. I would

:26:59.:27:04.

have an ageing population. We have people who don't just have one

:27:04.:27:08.

health care need but several. They span health and social care.

:27:08.:27:12.

Successive governments have tried to get local authorities and NHS

:27:12.:27:16.

organisations to work together with limited success. We believe it's

:27:16.:27:20.

long overdue to reexamine what happened in 1948 when the NHS was

:27:20.:27:24.

set up and local authorities were given responsibility for social care

:27:24.:27:27.

and ask how to bring them closer together and bring about

:27:27.:27:31.

improvements in care for older people who most need that care.

:27:32.:27:35.

agree that health and social care funding should be brought together?

:27:35.:27:39.

We argue that now is the time to address that question seriously. We

:27:39.:27:43.

think there are ways of doing it within the existing system that may

:27:43.:27:48.

not go far enough. Within the existing system, in other words

:27:48.:27:55.

still allowing councils to be the ash tors and -- arbitors and

:27:55.:28:00.

distributors of social care? limited option would be to pool

:28:00.:28:04.

councils to get organisations to agree to share resources. The

:28:04.:28:08.

radical option would be to say let's break down that barrier entirely,

:28:08.:28:12.

have a single pool of money paying for both health and social care.

:28:12.:28:17.

What you would like to see? Well, I think Chris and I are complete lay

:28:17.:28:21.

greed that the model of care has to change completely. So we have to be

:28:21.:28:26.

open minded about all the different options. The idea of just being able

:28:27.:28:30.

to work from one budget for the needs of people, individual patients

:28:30.:28:33.

don't understand the difference between health care and social care.

:28:33.:28:37.

They just want to receive care. The idea of breaking down this barrier I

:28:37.:28:42.

think is immensely attractive. are in favour of having one fund,

:28:42.:28:47.

really, from which all care would come, including social care?

:28:47.:28:51.

question is whether you do that as a national settlement, where you just

:28:51.:28:54.

change this arrangement, whereby you have the NHS and local authorities

:28:54.:28:59.

or whether you get it to happen the -- at the local level. What we're

:28:59.:29:03.

doing in Government is making it happen locally. We have set a tough

:29:03.:29:08.

ambition to get to a fully integrated system by 2018. We have

:29:08.:29:11.

pioneers that we're going to announce in septs that will really

:29:12.:29:17.

push the boundaries -- September. All the best countries in health

:29:17.:29:20.

terms are doing this. They recognise that the big challenge is people

:29:20.:29:23.

living for many years with chronic conditions and we're not caring for

:29:23.:29:26.

them very well. That's the challenge. We're not delivering good

:29:26.:29:32.

care and it's not a sustainable system. Is this new? When you were

:29:32.:29:36.

Health Secretary, people were talking about closer integration

:29:36.:29:41.

between community care and hospital care, for example. Do you agree with

:29:41.:29:46.

what Norman Lamb is saying? As it happens, I think both are spot on.

:29:46.:29:51.

Let's leave aside our differences and address the key question: There

:29:51.:29:56.

are two mammoth organisations. When I was Health Secretary there was

:29:56.:30:00.

about 1. 25 million people in the NHS and the same again and more in

:30:00.:30:06.

social care. Just behind the red army. Yeah they used to say apart

:30:06.:30:10.

from the Indian railways and Chinese Red Army, it was the largest

:30:10.:30:14.

organisation in the world. However, what has changed over the past 25

:30:14.:30:18.

years? It is the demographic changes. We're growing older, much

:30:18.:30:24.

older than we were. We're being sustained in life by new

:30:24.:30:28.

pharmaceuticals, new technology and so on. That means in the future,

:30:28.:30:33.

actually, most of the illnesses, the problem addressing them won't ab

:30:33.:30:37.

cute operations in hospitals, it will be chronic illnesses which

:30:37.:30:42.

requires care in the community. The big gap that used to be seen between

:30:42.:30:48.

care and hospital operations and medical side is disappearing because

:30:48.:30:52.

of social change. Why hasn't that happened? I've had endless

:30:52.:30:55.

discussions about this. Everybody recognises the problem and actually

:30:56.:30:57.

recognises the problem and actually recognises the problem and actually

:30:57.:31:05.

put forward solutions. It has happened incrementally, we

:31:05.:31:11.

introduced the number -- increased the number of community nurses and

:31:11.:31:16.

local health centres in the community, we expanded GP practices.

:31:16.:31:20.

That was incremental movement towards it. What our guests today

:31:20.:31:26.

are saying is that we really need to look at a big, strategic radical

:31:26.:31:31.

change, perhaps years out. We have already had a big, strategic radical

:31:31.:31:36.

change. Can the health service cope with a different one? With respect,

:31:36.:31:41.

it was the wrong one. What Norman and the government have said is that

:31:41.:31:46.

we will move some of the NHS budget to social care to help hard-pressed

:31:46.:31:50.

council is not to have to rush and social care to needy older people,

:31:50.:31:55.

because the two systems need to work together, that is where we need to

:31:55.:32:01.

focus. You made the wrong change? This is the model of care, not

:32:01.:32:07.

structural change. I would say we are in agreement... Except he says

:32:07.:32:11.

the reorganisation was not the right thing to do. Two you ask why it has

:32:11.:32:15.

not happened so far. The stars are lying snow and, critically, every

:32:15.:32:21.

part of the system recognises that unless change happens it will

:32:21.:32:31.
:32:31.:32:31.

collapse. Reign and across parties. Then the more we can take the public

:32:31.:32:39.

with us. I am not a conservative, I am a Liberal Democrat. You are in

:32:39.:32:46.

coalition. And I have argued from the moment I got into the Department

:32:46.:32:51.

for health, I think it is really happening. Your commission wants to

:32:51.:32:56.

ask if the entitlements and criteria used to access who can access health

:32:56.:33:02.

and care be aligned. Social care is means tested. Do you want to apply

:33:02.:33:08.

means testing to parts of the NHS? We have set up a commission to look

:33:08.:33:15.

into that. But the logic of that question is we should look at means

:33:15.:33:18.

testing. We have not spoken about affordability and the difference in

:33:18.:33:23.

the budgets for the NHS and what councils receive for social care.

:33:24.:33:28.

But if you put them together, would you have to consider means testing

:33:28.:33:32.

part of the NHS? If we are revisiting the post-war settlement,

:33:32.:33:37.

you should not leave anything off the table. But we believe there is a

:33:37.:33:43.

lot of scope for using existing spending more efficiently. We spent

:33:43.:33:48.

105 �15 billion on the NHS, �15 billion on social care. Nobody says

:33:48.:33:52.

every pound is spent wisely and efficiently. If we did not have

:33:52.:33:57.

people in hospitals who could be cared for at home if the money was

:33:57.:34:06.

used flexibly, we would save on the wastage expenditure on expensive

:34:06.:34:07.

hospital treatment and help people to be supported where they want to

:34:07.:34:14.

be. So you will reduce the NHS budget and shift it to social care?

:34:14.:34:18.

We need to shift from repair to prevention. That is where we have

:34:18.:34:21.

made too much investment over the years, we have to stop people

:34:22.:34:29.

getting ill in the first place. it wrong to ring fence NHS spending?

:34:29.:34:33.

I think it was right, it has given us the capacity now to do quite

:34:33.:34:39.

exciting things with Health and Social Care Bill. The other big

:34:39.:34:44.

collaboration is between the statutory services in the

:34:44.:34:47.

community, people and neighbourhoods. Lots of people in

:34:47.:34:51.

retirement have time on their hands and want to give something back to

:34:51.:34:56.

their community, to neighbours. If we can unleash that power, together

:34:56.:35:02.

with the statutory services, we have a potential solution. When will the

:35:02.:35:06.

report be finished? The interim report, early next year, the final

:35:06.:35:11.

report in September, to feed into the election debate. There are holes

:35:11.:35:14.

in the NHS ring fence. The money that has been earmarked and

:35:14.:35:19.

protected, some of that is being transferred to local authorities to

:35:20.:35:24.

deal with their funding pressures. That is only a short-term sticking

:35:24.:35:29.

plaster solution. There is so much political consensus that now is the

:35:29.:35:36.

time to do that. C if anything can be agreed and done. Reign it is

:35:36.:35:44.

great that you are doing it. Apprenticeships should be as valued

:35:44.:35:47.

as a university degree - that's the view of Business Secretary Vince

:35:47.:35:50.

Cable, who has pledged to boost the image of apprentices, as well as

:35:51.:35:53.

increasing their numbers. More than half a million people started an

:35:53.:35:56.

apprenticeship last year, and the government is aiming for almost four

:35:56.:35:58.

million to have completed an apprenticeship scheme by 2022. This

:35:58.:36:02.

is what David Cameron said to young workers at a car factory during

:36:02.:36:08.

National Apprenticeship Week. Apprenticeships, and investing in

:36:08.:36:11.

apprenticeships, is a win-win situation. It is good for you

:36:11.:36:15.

because you get the chance to acquire skills which mean you can

:36:15.:36:18.

have a worthwhile career. There is some research evidence out recently

:36:18.:36:22.

that shows that if you do a higher-level apprenticeship, it

:36:22.:36:29.

raises the earning potential in your life by �150,000. So it is a win for

:36:29.:36:32.

the people undertaking the apprenticeships. It is a win for the

:36:32.:36:36.

companies, because the government is putting money into apprenticeships,

:36:36.:36:39.

allowing companies to access great training and great skills which will

:36:39.:36:47.

be good for the companies. But it is a win for the country.

:36:47.:36:49.

This morning, Business Secretary Vince Cable was out spreading the

:36:49.:36:52.

word and giving awards to the Apprentice Team of the Year. Dr

:36:52.:36:56.

Cable is with us now, and we're also joined by Julie White, managing

:36:56.:36:58.

director of the Coventry-based concrete cutting firm D-Drill, where

:36:58.:37:00.

almost half the staff are apprentices or came through their

:37:00.:37:05.

apprentice scheme. Welcome to the Daily Politics.

:37:05.:37:09.

Vince Cable, you want to increase the number of apprentices with a

:37:09.:37:14.

target of creating almost 4 million between now and 2022, how will you

:37:14.:37:18.

do that in the shadow of the Spending Review? There has been a

:37:18.:37:23.

massive expansion since we came in to government, and although my

:37:23.:37:27.

department has come under significant cuts, I decided we

:37:27.:37:29.

wanted to prioritise apprenticeships and we have virtually doubled the

:37:29.:37:34.

number. We got half a million kids going through the system, mostly

:37:34.:37:38.

young people that some adults, this year, and there 1 million

:37:38.:37:43.

altogether. But it is not just numbers, it is about quality. We

:37:43.:37:48.

have cut out some of the shorter courses and are concentrating on

:37:48.:37:52.

advanced apprenticeships. Two or three years? You have to be the

:37:52.:37:57.

minimum of a year, there were some short courses before which were not

:37:57.:38:02.

really apprenticeships. What about the age of apprentices? You say the

:38:02.:38:06.

figures have expanded while you were in government, but the figures show

:38:06.:38:14.

that the number of apprenticeships for under 19 dropped in 2011/12.

:38:14.:38:17.

other age groups have expanded massively. There is an issue with

:38:17.:38:24.

young people. Apprenticeships is treated as a serious training

:38:24.:38:29.

opportunity, not something you walk into. We envisage a preliminary

:38:29.:38:33.

stage called a traineeship, where you get work experience and basic

:38:33.:38:39.

English and maths. Then they become an apprentice. Julie White, because

:38:39.:38:43.

apprentices, as I understand, are paid less than the minimum wage when

:38:43.:38:50.

they start, is there a danger of them being used as cheap labour?

:38:50.:38:56.

think that might be right in some larger companies, but at D-Drill we

:38:56.:39:03.

pay our apprentices �1 under a qualified apprentice. Because they

:39:03.:39:07.

can't reduce very quickly and we make money from them. So they are

:39:07.:39:09.

the lifeblood of the company and have a great feeling for the

:39:09.:39:14.

company. We keep talking about too many of the bigger companies talking

:39:14.:39:23.

about apprentices, there are 5 million SMEs out there, you should

:39:23.:39:29.

be getting us to take apprentices. Why is it such a problem for SMEs to

:39:29.:39:39.
:39:39.:39:39.

get apprentices set up? They are often very busy. With a lot of small

:39:39.:39:43.

compass -- companies, they train somebody at great expense and time

:39:43.:39:47.

and then they drift off, they can't retain them. But big companies find

:39:48.:39:52.

it easier to lock people in. We recognise the problem. We are trying

:39:52.:39:58.

to make the system work more smoothly and we are giving them

:39:58.:40:03.

financial incentives, �1500 if they take on an extra apprentice. There

:40:03.:40:12.

is a cash incentive. We need to work on this. How easy is it for a small

:40:12.:40:17.

company to get an apprentice? paperwork is astronomical, and

:40:17.:40:21.

although the National Apprenticeship Week 's help, it is still tough. We

:40:21.:40:24.

are in one of the biggest recessions, hopefully coming out,

:40:24.:40:30.

but we need more help. �1500 is nothing when you want to bring in an

:40:30.:40:33.

apprentice, because it is the livelihood of all those companies

:40:33.:40:40.

coming through. But it is a drop in the ocean. This is from somebody...

:40:40.:40:46.

We would like to do more. But you haven't got the money. Indeed, but

:40:46.:40:53.

we are giving it a priority. This is your priority? We are doing more

:40:53.:40:56.

apprenticeships than anything else, but it is alongside supporting

:40:56.:41:01.

technology and universities, too. Julie, you mentioned this database

:41:01.:41:06.

idea, explain a little bit. If it is difficult to access the apprentices

:41:06.:41:13.

you want, or too difficult, what would a database do? Concrete

:41:13.:41:16.

cutting is very specialist, you can't get our workers from

:41:16.:41:20.

university or college or anywhere, so we have to home grow them. So we

:41:21.:41:23.

thought that once an apprentice has been through a construction company

:41:23.:41:28.

and does not have a full-time job, because some of them don't, there is

:41:28.:41:36.

not enough work, why can't I access those people? One, they have decided

:41:36.:41:41.

to go into construction, two, they usually want to work, but I have

:41:41.:41:46.

been told I can't access them because of data protection. That is

:41:46.:41:52.

ridiculous. What do you say? I think it is a good idea, I don't

:41:52.:41:58.

understand the data protection problem, I would have to look at it.

:41:58.:42:00.

We already have a talent retention scheme for qualified people. If you

:42:00.:42:03.

get a redundant engineer from the aerospace industry, they are fed

:42:04.:42:10.

into the system. We need to know about this. I don't see why we can't

:42:10.:42:14.

extend this to apprenticeships. this the way the government should

:42:14.:42:18.

be going, focusing attention and what money there is on building up

:42:18.:42:26.

apprenticeships? I think that Vince's prioritisation of this is

:42:26.:42:31.

important, not just in terms of the economy but in fairness. This is the

:42:31.:42:36.

forgotten 50%. There is an obsessive discussion about universities, which

:42:36.:42:41.

I understand, but this is the lifeblood of the economy,

:42:41.:42:45.

engineering, scientific, manufacturing sectors. Vince, cut

:42:45.:42:52.

down the bureaucracy, make it easier and go online. Let's have an

:42:52.:42:55.

exchange of names and possible potential apprentices for small

:42:55.:43:00.

companies. My one worry would be the point that you made, that last year

:43:00.:43:06.

there was an increase in 16 to 18-year-olds -- there was not an

:43:06.:43:10.

increase in 16 to 18-year-old, there was a drop. David Cameron was

:43:10.:43:14.

speaking to people that age, so we have a lot more apprentices, but

:43:14.:43:21.

many are over 25. There is a 10,000 drop in the 16 to 18-year-olds.

:43:21.:43:25.

health and safety, we cannot get them onto a construction site if

:43:25.:43:30.

they are not 18 and above. We have got one thing going against us, then

:43:30.:43:37.

another. So how will you get young people into... ? But you can go into

:43:37.:43:42.

conflict in the Army at 17 but not construction.

:43:42.:43:47.

This is massively oversimplifying, we do not want people killing

:43:47.:43:51.

themselves. What about the value of an apprenticeship? You say you have

:43:51.:43:56.

dealt with quality, but what are you doing to equate it to a business

:43:56.:44:00.

degree, for example? And that I think there is still an awful lot of

:44:00.:44:04.

snobbery around the fact that, perhaps, they are not as good as

:44:04.:44:11.

university degrees. That deeply entrenched apartheid between the

:44:11.:44:20.

qualification... We have to... them all? If you get into an

:44:20.:44:21.

advanced engineering apprenticeship, you are actually

:44:21.:44:25.

already doing a degree. The group of apprentices I met this morning, the

:44:25.:44:31.

team leader is doing a degree. He started on the shopfloor, became an

:44:31.:44:35.

apprentice and is doing a degree equivalent. That route is available

:44:35.:44:41.

for those who work hard and have the academic and vocational skills.

:44:41.:44:45.

you think apprentices are undervalued by the public bastion

:44:45.:44:49.

mark yes, the word apprentice has been so downtrodden for so long.

:44:49.:44:54.

have we made it about a degree is everything in life? The Swiss, the

:44:54.:44:58.

Austrians, the Germans, apprenticeship is everything. My

:44:58.:45:01.

whole management team have come through an apprenticeship course.

:45:01.:45:08.

Why have we devalued it so much? Vince Cable, you are quoted today as

:45:08.:45:16.

the grumpy old man. I am often cheerful and I don't regard myself

:45:16.:45:26.
:45:26.:45:33.

as old! I take that back!But I have strong views about the needs to

:45:33.:45:37.

invest in skills and technology and backing up the brilliant work that

:45:37.:45:39.

people like Julie are doing. Will you settle with George Osborne

:45:39.:45:41.

before next week? We have not yet, that we have amicable, businesslike

:45:41.:45:43.

discussions. It is not winning or losing, hopefully we will all win.

:45:43.:45:48.

There is a compromise to be done, but you are worried about a false

:45:48.:45:53.

economy? I don't think we should even think about false economies,

:45:53.:45:56.

cutting back on badly needed investment in areas like skills. I

:45:56.:46:00.

think there is a way through and I will happily negotiate. I wouldn't

:46:00.:46:05.

say happily. But we are having good, even tempered, businesslike

:46:06.:46:10.

discussions. That is what you say in public, are you worried about going

:46:10.:46:16.

to the Star chamber? I describe that as amateur theatricals. We will

:46:16.:46:21.

continue to talk to the Treasury. They are the key in this. It is mean

:46:21.:46:26.

to ask you to do this, briefly, but what do you think is the best way to

:46:26.:46:30.

return Lloyds to private ownership? I don't want to anticipate what the

:46:30.:46:35.

Chancellor will say. And we have only got the Parliamentary

:46:35.:46:39.

commission report just coming out today. We have to try to die just

:46:39.:46:43.

that. I think most of us, looking at it, recognise that Lloyds is in a

:46:43.:46:47.

somewhat different position from RBS. But what that means in terms of

:46:47.:46:54.

timing and the detail, I think you have to wait. A quick sell-off?I

:46:54.:47:04.
:47:04.:47:05.

think not, let's let the Chancellor say. I will not anticipate. When we

:47:05.:47:11.

hear the word psychopath we tend to think of Hannibal Lecter. But not

:47:11.:47:15.

only do our politicians share some personality trats but it's a good

:47:16.:47:21.

thing. It's a theory put forward by Dr Kevin Dutton. He argues in order

:47:21.:47:24.

to be effective our leaders have to have something of the night about

:47:24.:47:34.
:47:34.:47:36.

them. Here's a slightly scary We're going to do something a little

:47:36.:47:40.

unusual on the Dalily politics today. We're going to take you

:47:41.:47:47.

inside the mind of one of Britain's greatest political leaders. One who

:47:47.:47:55.

allegedly shared some of the personality trats of the psychopath.

:47:55.:48:00.

Robert Hardy has played Churchill to critical acclaim. He's also got into

:48:00.:48:10.
:48:10.:48:12.

character to take part in a study of psychology. Do I understand why in

:48:13.:48:18.

spite of his emotional nature and his good nature and his generosity

:48:18.:48:23.

of spirit, why he was able to take these killing decisions, the answer

:48:24.:48:30.

is sheer courage. Clear vision has to be done, can't bear the thought

:48:30.:48:39.

of doing it, have to do it. Call on courage. It's not just Winston. Dr

:48:39.:48:42.

Kevin Dutton and some of his colleagues asked buy yog fares of

:48:42.:48:45.

some of the world's leading political figures to take the same

:48:45.:48:52.

test on behalf of their subjects. He found that many share personality

:48:52.:48:57.

traits with criminal psychopaths. They're charming, charismatic, cool

:48:57.:49:00.

under pressure, self-confident. If you think of the jobs that

:49:00.:49:03.

politicians would have to do, some of the decision that's they make,

:49:03.:49:10.

those traits can come in handy in that line of work. Before you jam

:49:10.:49:14.

the switchboards, bear with us. Dr Kevin Dutton's point is that

:49:14.:49:18.

actually a little bit of psychopath in our politicians isn't just good

:49:18.:49:23.

for society, it's vital. In any kind of job where you've got to make

:49:23.:49:27.

tough decisions, or you've got to be cool under pressure, where you have

:49:27.:49:31.

to be charming and charismatic and not necessarily always dot thing

:49:31.:49:38.

which you would like to be liked for, I think you need psychopathic

:49:38.:49:42.

qualities in order to discharge those duties. So I think in the

:49:42.:49:47.

right context and at the right level and I think broadly speaking,

:49:47.:49:51.

politicians stick to those parameters. We have need

:49:51.:49:57.

psychopathic traits. Theory. But to those who've been up close to

:49:57.:50:02.

political greatness buy it? I go back to the time where I was in

:50:02.:50:04.

Conservative central office, the years and thousands of pounds we

:50:04.:50:12.

wasted on trying, for instance, to make Margaret Thatcher appear kind

:50:12.:50:16.

and cuddly. Complete waste of time. She wasn't kind of cuddly. She was

:50:16.:50:23.

somebody would got things done. Fay told her that she was, she had

:50:23.:50:26.

psychopathic ten densies, I suspect herries would have glinted at me and

:50:26.:50:32.

then a nod, yes, she didn't want to be loved. She didn't want to be like

:50:32.:50:37.

everybody else. Lord Dobbs created arguably the greatest political

:50:37.:50:41.

psychopath of all time. No politician wants to be like him, do

:50:41.:50:46.

they? The only people that I'm aware of, the only politicians who I'm

:50:46.:50:55.

aware of who are upset by writing about Francis Erkhart. They ask if

:50:55.:51:01.

it was them. It wasn't. It was a xozity figure of many people that I

:51:01.:51:05.

met and studies. -- studied. Our politicians might not be add or

:51:05.:51:10.

dangerous to know, but could they be dangerous to know? You might think

:51:10.:51:18.

that. I couldn't possibly comment. How very chilling. David Thompson

:51:18.:51:24.

reporting. We're joined by the psych therapist, Lucy Beresford. Is it a

:51:24.:51:28.

bit of an exaggeration to say that great political leaders share some

:51:28.:51:35.

of the personality traits of a psychopath. It is. Personality

:51:35.:51:41.

traits aren't mutually exclusive. In lots of ind steroids you want --

:51:41.:51:45.

industries you want people to be Ruthless, making quick decisions,

:51:45.:51:48.

having emotional detachment. The surgeon who operated on my wrist

:51:48.:51:52.

last week, I needed him to be detached. You probably need to have

:51:53.:51:56.

those certain traits. It doesn't mean to say you're a psychopath.

:51:56.:52:02.

Helpful? They talked about Winston Churchill, one of the greatest, is

:52:02.:52:06.

it helpful to say that the personality traits of a psychopath

:52:06.:52:10.

are those that a successful politician needs to have, so whether

:52:10.:52:14.

it's charming, ruthless, cool under pressure, self-confident, who does

:52:15.:52:20.

that remind you of? I don't think it's particularly helpful. It makes

:52:20.:52:23.

a great headline on a noon chat show politically. It's a good job you're

:52:24.:52:31.

on one then. I'm in the a psychotherapist. A psychopath.Or

:52:31.:52:35.

that. I understand the central thing here, I understand from what the

:52:35.:52:38.

background I've been given to the programme is this question of

:52:38.:52:44.

empathy and empathy being, as I understand it, the ability to

:52:44.:52:49.

understand another person's emotions and feelings. It certainly is not a

:52:49.:52:53.

helpful thing to have a lack of empathy as a politician. Have you to

:52:53.:53:00.

be able to understand the emotional effect and the feelings of -- of the

:53:00.:53:03.

people that your decisions affect. Equally, have you to be able - this

:53:03.:53:08.

applies to all leaders in industry, military, politically, probably even

:53:08.:53:14.

parents - you have to understand that while you can empathise with

:53:14.:53:18.

somebody's emotions, that sometimes, for the longer term good, whatever

:53:18.:53:20.

position you're in, including parents, have you to take a

:53:20.:53:25.

particular decision. Now I don't regard that as psychopathy. That's a

:53:25.:53:29.

degree of resolution and decisiveness, which is required in a

:53:29.:53:33.

leading position. You have talked about empathy and everybody would

:53:33.:53:38.

say absolutely. But to be a really successful leader is ruthlessness

:53:38.:53:43.

not the critical factor? No, it isn't. Decisiveness is. Resolution

:53:43.:53:49.

is. But if by ruthlessness you mean the capacity to take decisions

:53:49.:53:53.

irrespective of people's feelings or because you are incapable of

:53:53.:53:58.

understanding their feelings, that's an entirely different thing. Supreme

:53:58.:54:01.

indifference towards other people is a trait of being a psychopath. There

:54:01.:54:08.

is this great danger and it was touched on in a fabulous book by

:54:08.:54:12.

Lord Owen in sickness and in power, which examined the mental health and

:54:12.:54:17.

the physical health of quite a lot of the world's leaders over the last

:54:17.:54:23.

100 years. It looked at things like megalomania and that ruthlessness

:54:23.:54:29.

which is tied to enormous self-belief and a certain

:54:29.:54:32.

restlessness of personality and perhaps an inattention to detail,

:54:32.:54:36.

shall we say, that for some people, it's all about the big picture.

:54:36.:54:40.

Looking at Tony Blair for example, what were the key personality trats

:54:40.:54:44.

that made him, in your mind, such a successful leader in terms of the

:54:44.:54:49.

number of terms he won? I think the intellectual capacity to understand

:54:49.:54:57.

the changes in the modern world. He had an analystical mind to focus on

:54:57.:55:02.

the strategic questions that had to be addressed. He was well aware that

:55:02.:55:05.

some of the decisions he took would not be agreed with, would be

:55:05.:55:07.

upsetting to people, but also he had an understanding, and this applies

:55:07.:55:14.

toe all leaders, to decide is to divide. That's why opposition is

:55:14.:55:17.

easy compared to Government in. Opposition you can give the

:55:17.:55:18.

impression you're against everything. When you're in

:55:18.:55:22.

Government you have to take a decision. When you do that, you have

:55:22.:55:26.

to accept that there will be people who will into the gree with you and

:55:26.:55:30.

many people who might be upset by it. But if you do not take that

:55:30.:55:33.

decision, there'll be no movement forward at all. That thought for the

:55:33.:55:37.

next bit of our programme. Lucy Beresford, thank you very much. Now

:55:37.:55:42.

back to our quiz. A slightly different one from our usual style.

:55:42.:55:47.

The question was: According to you, which of the following is the most

:55:47.:55:54.

likely result of the 2015 general election. A, a Labour majority, B, a

:55:54.:56:00.

Labour/Lib Dem coalition, C, a o Conservative/Lib Dem coalition or D,

:56:00.:56:05.

a Conservative majority. Am I supposed to have said at some time?

:56:05.:56:11.

No, your judgment. On the facts at the moment would suggest a small

:56:11.:56:15.

Labour victory probably the order of 40 in the latest opinion polls. It

:56:15.:56:22.

may well be that even a minority Labour Party could form a

:56:22.:56:27.

Government. I think the most disastrous thing would be for Labour

:56:27.:56:32.

to anticipate and work towards a coalition with the liberals.

:56:32.:56:35.

Strategically that would be a very bad mistakes. There are good

:56:35.:56:39.

individuals in the liberal party, you know Vince Cable and others who

:56:39.:56:44.

have been on your programme today. But I think that if you believe that

:56:44.:56:48.

you should work towards a coalition, and therefore you plan for defeat,

:56:48.:56:53.

you will bring about that defeat. Speaking to Andrew Neil in April,

:56:53.:56:59.

you said, " Now was the time for Ed Miliband to move the party from a

:56:59.:57:03.

voice of protest to position of party as a potential Government." Is

:57:03.:57:08.

he getting there? The present signs are yes. I said that I thought we

:57:08.:57:12.

had to stop saying, we're against this and start saying what we would

:57:12.:57:16.

do. That has happened now. Ed Miliband has done. It Ed Balls has

:57:16.:57:21.

done it. You agree with those policy announcements that have been made,

:57:21.:57:25.

the caps on welfare spending, universal benefits for rich pension

:57:26.:57:29.

snerz I do. And the health and social care coming toghts. Liam

:57:29.:57:34.

Byrne saying on welfare we have to reform and relate it more closely to

:57:34.:57:41.

the contribution that you've made over the years. Stephen Twigg twig

:57:41.:57:43.

yesterday on building... Did you understand what's the difference

:57:43.:57:47.

between a parent-led academy and a free school? A free school has to

:57:47.:57:51.

have a sponsor. It has to have a significant amount of money put in

:57:51.:57:56.

by an individual or individuals. It also is part of the local planning

:57:56.:58:01.

process, sorry an acad my meets those qualifications. A free school

:58:01.:58:05.

is any school that's established at the behest of a group of parents.

:58:05.:58:09.

They have similar attributes. The key thing is that he said that some

:58:09.:58:13.

of the freedoms that have been extended under the Labour Government

:58:13.:58:18.

to academies and... Will be taken on? No, should be extended to state

:58:18.:58:24.

schools. That is the length of the day, the flexibility of the

:58:24.:58:29.

curriculum and so on. I'm all for that. So, Stephen Twigg, Andy

:58:29.:58:33.

Burnham, Liam Byrne, Ed Miliband and Ed balds, since I recommended that

:58:33.:58:37.

we come out with policy direction, I'm glad to say... They've taken it

:58:37.:58:41.

on board. On that note, we'll end it. Thank you very much to our guest

:58:41.:58:44.

of the day John Reid and all our other guests. The one o'clock news

:58:44.:58:49.

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