Browse content similar to 18/06/2013. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Daily Politics. David Cameron and leaders from the G8 group of | :00:39. | :00:42. | |
countries continue their summit in Northern Ireland, with Syria top of | :00:42. | :00:47. | |
the agenda. But can the Prime Minister persuade Vladimir Putin to | :00:47. | :00:52. | |
back his plan for peace? The Business Secretary hails the | :00:52. | :00:54. | |
Government's record on apprenticeships and forecasts that | :00:54. | :00:57. | |
they'll contribute over �3 billion a year to the economy within ten | :00:57. | :01:04. | |
years. Vince Cable joins us live. As the coalition's changes to the | :01:04. | :01:08. | |
NHS bed down, is now really a good time for more radical thinking on | :01:08. | :01:13. | |
the health service and social care? The think tank the Kings Fund think | :01:13. | :01:18. | |
so. They'll be here to explain why. And we'll hear from one academic who | :01:18. | :01:20. | |
says some high-achieving politicians share character traits with | :01:20. | :01:30. | |
:01:30. | :01:32. | ||
psychopaths. And that's a good thing All that in the next hour. And with | :01:32. | :01:35. | |
us for the whole programme today is the Labour peer John Reid, who in | :01:35. | :01:38. | |
the last Labour government held a grand total of eight cabinet posts, | :01:38. | :01:45. | |
ending up as Home Secretary until 2007. He's now chair of the | :01:45. | :01:48. | |
Institute for Security and Resilience Studies. Welcome to the | :01:48. | :01:54. | |
Daily Politics. Let's start with the G8 summit in Northern Ireland which | :01:54. | :01:59. | |
continues today. Earlier this morning David Cameron and the other | :01:59. | :02:04. | |
G8 leaders gathered together for what's known as a family photo. But | :02:05. | :02:07. | |
it hasn't been all smiles, with Russian President Vladimir Putin | :02:07. | :02:10. | |
making it clear he doesn't agree with the British PM on the issue of | :02:10. | :02:20. | |
:02:20. | :02:30. | ||
intervention in Syria. Downing Street wish to have a peace | :02:30. | :02:34. | |
conference today, but the big question is whether President Assad | :02:34. | :02:38. | |
will agree to step down. Is there a scenario where Russia can be cut out | :02:38. | :02:46. | |
of the G8 over Syria? I don't think so. And it is not just Russia, other | :02:46. | :02:50. | |
people at the G8 hold similar views. I think it is important to | :02:50. | :02:55. | |
realise that the Russian position is not just self-interest as regards | :02:55. | :03:01. | |
the long-standing relationship with Syria which, of course, is true, and | :03:01. | :03:04. | |
the Mediterranean. I would also guess that Putin would reckon that | :03:05. | :03:10. | |
one of the greatest threat to Russia is Islamist terrorism, and | :03:10. | :03:16. | |
particularly the likes of Chechnya and the southern flank of Russia. | :03:16. | :03:20. | |
His view, basically, it's better the devil we know than the devil we | :03:20. | :03:25. | |
don't. We don't know what will happen after President Assad goes, | :03:25. | :03:30. | |
if he does. Except, at the moment, people are saying he is butchering | :03:30. | :03:36. | |
his own people, killing them intends, that can't continue. It is | :03:36. | :03:41. | |
not better the devil you know. not justifying it, I am explaining | :03:41. | :03:48. | |
the Russian position. If you explain that inflamed the situation further | :03:48. | :03:54. | |
by bringing more arms, it might inflame a significant jihadist | :03:54. | :03:59. | |
presence in Syria. Syria is not just self-contained, it is a battlefield | :03:59. | :04:05. | |
in what is becoming a great sunny-macro/sheer-macro conflict. | :04:05. | :04:12. | |
The Alawite 's are a minority further within that minority. But | :04:13. | :04:17. | |
they are in the majority in Iraq, and in the non-Arab nation of Iran | :04:17. | :04:27. | |
:04:27. | :04:30. | ||
next door. Hezbollah are sheer based. The majority in Syria, they | :04:30. | :04:37. | |
are Sunni and backed by Sunni nations like Saudi Arabia. But do | :04:37. | :04:41. | |
you agree that we can't allow a situation where the opposition is | :04:41. | :04:46. | |
exterminated before they even have a chance by the arms flowing into | :04:46. | :04:54. | |
support Assad noes regime. Asad is behaving monstrously. Their element | :04:54. | :05:00. | |
within the opposition to Asad who will operate in just such a | :05:00. | :05:03. | |
monstrous fashion if they ever take control. They are blowing up | :05:03. | :05:10. | |
innocent civilians through the world. The key question is not by | :05:10. | :05:15. | |
doing nothing to you avoid responsibility, you don't, right? | :05:15. | :05:18. | |
There are consequences, moral and otherwise, of doing mopping. But the | :05:18. | :05:25. | |
key question is by pumping in more arms, do you actually have an | :05:25. | :05:31. | |
outcome which is better. I suspect we will get an agreement from the GH | :05:31. | :05:36. | |
which says humanitarian, diplomatic and political moves, there may be | :05:37. | :05:40. | |
difficulty over the wording about whether the regime and Assad must | :05:40. | :05:45. | |
stay, but I think it will stop short of any agreement, certainly with | :05:45. | :05:50. | |
Russia, to put in extra weaponry. Let's turn to another major | :05:50. | :05:53. | |
international story - the news that NATO has handed over security for | :05:53. | :05:56. | |
the whole of Afghanistan for the first time since the Taliban were | :05:56. | :05:59. | |
ousted in 2001. At a ceremony in Kabul, President Hamid Karzai said | :05:59. | :06:02. | |
that, from Wednesday, our own security and military forces will | :06:02. | :06:04. | |
lead all the security activities. International troops will remain in | :06:04. | :06:07. | |
Afghanistan until the end of 2014, providing military back-up when | :06:07. | :06:17. | |
:06:17. | :06:18. | ||
needed. Are they going to cope, the Afghan security services? I think | :06:18. | :06:23. | |
they will cope. They won't guarantee that there will not be continual | :06:23. | :06:29. | |
acts of terrorism. This is another battlefield in this great front. Six | :06:29. | :06:32. | |
years ago they had some 40,000 in terms of numbers, they've now got | :06:32. | :06:38. | |
350,000. They are a significant size. In terms of quality, my | :06:38. | :06:43. | |
understanding is that they have now become roughly equivalent to the | :06:43. | :06:48. | |
Army of a developing nation, so they are not as good as the advanced, | :06:48. | :06:50. | |
well-trained and well-equipped armies of the West that have been a | :06:50. | :06:56. | |
nice so far. But at some stage the handover has two take place, because | :06:56. | :07:02. | |
they need autonomy over their military, as well as politically. | :07:02. | :07:05. | |
don't have exact numbers, but there are Afghans already leaving the | :07:05. | :07:09. | |
army, and the worry is that the Taliban will just step in. How | :07:09. | :07:12. | |
important are the talks that have been mentioned with the Taliban in | :07:12. | :07:21. | |
Qatar? If I had a criticism over the government over the last few years, | :07:21. | :07:24. | |
I don't think it did enough on the political front. I don't think it | :07:24. | :07:28. | |
made sense to announce publicly that we are leaving militarily, then we | :07:28. | :07:35. | |
will start talking. We should have been talking to those allied to the | :07:35. | :07:40. | |
Taliban with whom it was possible, and then announce a leaving date as | :07:40. | :07:45. | |
a result of the politics. Not saying, we are off, will you now sit | :07:45. | :07:49. | |
down and talk? The Taliban have an old saying, you might have the | :07:49. | :07:55. | |
watches but we have the time. If you announce we are going at a certain | :07:55. | :08:02. | |
date, it's... Weakens the hand?It is not to say that a political | :08:02. | :08:08. | |
solution is not the ideal, it is. The Taliban are not a homogenous | :08:08. | :08:14. | |
group. Now time for Now it's time for our daily quiz. | :08:14. | :08:17. | |
Something a little different. The question for today is: According to | :08:17. | :08:20. | |
our guest John Reid, which of the following is the most likely result | :08:20. | :08:28. | |
of the 2015 general election? I hope you have your crystal ball! Is it a | :08:28. | :08:30. | |
Labour majority, a Labour/Lib Dem coalition, a Conservative/Lib Dem | :08:30. | :08:33. | |
coalition or a Conservative majority? At the end of the show, | :08:33. | :08:35. | |
John will give us the correct answer. | :08:35. | :08:38. | |
There's just a week to go before the Chancellor outlines the Government's | :08:38. | :08:41. | |
spending plans for the year after the next election. George Osborne is | :08:41. | :08:44. | |
looking to cut around �11.5 billion from public spending, and one area | :08:44. | :08:47. | |
which is likely to face another round of belt-tightening is local | :08:47. | :08:50. | |
government. Central government funding makes up around 40% of local | :08:50. | :08:59. | |
government budgets in England. Over the three years from 2011/12 to | :08:59. | :09:02. | |
2014/15 this part of their budget has been squeezed by 33% in real | :09:02. | :09:09. | |
terms. That's led to protests from local government chiefs, who warn of | :09:09. | :09:14. | |
dire consequences if budgets are reduced further. The Local | :09:14. | :09:17. | |
Government Association has warned, some councils will not be able to | :09:17. | :09:22. | |
deliver the existing range of services. The LGA has called on the | :09:22. | :09:27. | |
Treasury to lift all restrictions on council tax in the spending review. | :09:27. | :09:30. | |
At the moment, councils are encouraged to keep council tax rises | :09:30. | :09:35. | |
to less than 2%. But could local government make more savings without | :09:35. | :09:42. | |
affecting services? Last night, Channel 4's Dispatches programme | :09:42. | :09:46. | |
investigated waste in local authorities. It found that over �30 | :09:46. | :09:47. | |
million has been spent by 374 councils on chauffeur-driven cars | :09:47. | :09:54. | |
for council officials over the last five years. The programme also | :09:54. | :09:57. | |
discovered that councils spent �3.7m on foreign trips to places like | :09:57. | :10:04. | |
Jamaica and South Africa over the last five years. With us now is the | :10:04. | :10:12. | |
Local Government Minister Brandon Lewis. | :10:12. | :10:18. | |
Is all spending on cars and foreign trips just frivolous, in your mind? | :10:18. | :10:22. | |
I am sure some spending will be done appropriately, to go to places and | :10:22. | :10:26. | |
see people, but we have to look at what is spent and is it | :10:26. | :10:30. | |
appropriate. �6,000 to see the World Cup, I don't think many taxpayers | :10:30. | :10:35. | |
would see that as reasonable. might be the exception. If you take | :10:35. | :10:40. | |
the figures, �30 million spent by 374 councils on chauffeur driven | :10:40. | :10:48. | |
cars, that is �16,000 per cancel per year -- per council per year, so | :10:48. | :10:52. | |
than the figures don't look so bad. That is why it is important to look | :10:52. | :10:56. | |
at details and why local transparency is so important, so | :10:56. | :11:01. | |
that local taxpayers can see what is being spent, what on and whether it | :11:01. | :11:07. | |
is appropriate. Transparency exist. It is probably one of the clearest | :11:07. | :11:13. | |
areas where you can get figures. It looks as if you are using all | :11:13. | :11:15. | |
referring to blanket figures that councils are being irresponsible. | :11:15. | :11:22. | |
Let's look at foreign trips, can they ever be justified? This is a | :11:22. | :11:26. | |
call not from government, from Dispatchers. We are saying that the | :11:26. | :11:32. | |
Local Government Minister look very carefully, there is over �2 billion | :11:32. | :11:37. | |
of uncollected council tax, �2 billion in fraud, �60 billion in | :11:37. | :11:42. | |
reserves, over �220 billion in assets, of which �2 billion is | :11:42. | :11:45. | |
listed as surplus and another �1 billion is up for sale. There is a | :11:46. | :11:50. | |
huge amount in the system that we would like to see better used. | :11:50. | :11:56. | |
look at the foreign trips. One spokesperson said, this is trimming | :11:56. | :12:00. | |
up business. Rather than being a waste, people are coming back with | :12:00. | :12:03. | |
cash for investment. Another example, social workers going to | :12:03. | :12:08. | |
countries to visit relatives in the care of the borough to see whether | :12:08. | :12:12. | |
children can be returned to relatives in Jamaica. It is more | :12:12. | :12:18. | |
subtle and nuanced than just saying, is this waste? That is why | :12:18. | :12:21. | |
transparency is important. Councils and quite rightly make the case | :12:21. | :12:24. | |
about what they think is appropriate, and the beauty of | :12:24. | :12:28. | |
democracy is that everyone gets a chance to have their view. But you | :12:28. | :12:33. | |
feel that local government is still wasting money? Two there are some | :12:33. | :12:38. | |
councils doing great, innovative work, sharing management and | :12:38. | :12:42. | |
outsourcing. �61 billion a year for local government, we can still go | :12:42. | :12:47. | |
further. We asked somebody from a council to come on, but they | :12:47. | :12:51. | |
couldn't, but local government Association spokesman said that | :12:51. | :12:54. | |
everybody working in the public sector is required to spend | :12:54. | :12:59. | |
taxpayers money at Canterbury. The details of expenses and allowances | :12:59. | :13:06. | |
claimed by councillors are published online, as well as all spending over | :13:06. | :13:11. | |
�500. What are you hoping to reveal? We brought in the transparency | :13:11. | :13:14. | |
rules, we are very proud of that. Local people can see what is being | :13:14. | :13:22. | |
spent. We need to make sure that money spent appropriately. We have | :13:22. | :13:26. | |
councils who have put up council tax and allowances. We don't think that | :13:26. | :13:31. | |
is what taxpayers want to see locally. What do you say about the | :13:31. | :13:34. | |
claim that Labour councils in particular are putting up council | :13:35. | :13:41. | |
tax, and they don't think it is justified? I was an MP for 25 years, | :13:41. | :13:46. | |
and the vast majority of councils of all parties to a thankless task, | :13:46. | :13:52. | |
very often, in the frontline of politics. They can't come off to | :13:52. | :13:56. | |
Westminster for four days a week, they are steeped in locality and | :13:56. | :14:01. | |
they are now more transparent than anyone else. Of course there will be | :14:01. | :14:04. | |
misusers in any organisation. We have seen it with MPs, the | :14:04. | :14:10. | |
government and so on. Given the degree of transparency, I think that | :14:10. | :14:15. | |
some of the examples here of the types of cars hired and so on, it | :14:15. | :14:21. | |
would be sensible to recognise that in a time of financial austerity you | :14:21. | :14:25. | |
leave yourself open, and the first thing to ask is how will this play | :14:25. | :14:30. | |
in the front page of the Sunday Post? Some of them are Jaguars and | :14:30. | :14:36. | |
Bentleys as opposed to other, cheaper makes of car. Let's look at | :14:36. | :14:40. | |
spending cuts. The LGA and individual councils are saying they | :14:40. | :14:44. | |
just can't take any more cuts to expenditure, it will affect | :14:44. | :14:50. | |
frontline services. Are you prepared to take that risk? Last year, local | :14:50. | :14:53. | |
authorities had a reduction in spending power of 1.3%. Most people | :14:53. | :14:58. | |
out in the world would say that saving 1.3% is quite achievable and | :14:58. | :15:02. | |
we should try to do it. Councils have to make sure that cracking down | :15:02. | :15:08. | |
on fraud and error, collecting council tax and using the reserves | :15:08. | :15:10. | |
they have built up in the best possible way to develop for the | :15:10. | :15:14. | |
future and to deliver good local services. So you think 's can be | :15:14. | :15:18. | |
made without risk to frontline services? -- you think at can be | :15:18. | :15:25. | |
made? �61 billion a year of procurement, saving a few % makes a | :15:25. | :15:32. | |
big difference to local taxpayers. It is about making sure that the tax | :15:32. | :15:39. | |
payers' money is well spent. John Reid, councils that we have had on | :15:39. | :15:42. | |
the programme before cover different areas with different problems. | :15:42. | :15:46. | |
Bradley Lewis always talks about councils in the round in England, | :15:46. | :15:49. | |
but there are inner-city areas that will have bigger problems with, | :15:49. | :15:57. | |
perhaps, social care than a rule area. I think people recognise that | :15:57. | :16:01. | |
there has to be some greater efficiency continually, in all | :16:01. | :16:06. | |
services. You think they can't take more cuts? No, what I'm saying is | :16:06. | :16:09. | |
that while I agree there's always room for efficiency and looking at | :16:09. | :16:13. | |
that, I think the Government would be better to be up front and just to | :16:13. | :16:17. | |
say, yes, we understand that even with that, there might be a | :16:17. | :16:22. | |
deterioration in services. I think it's a bit hypocritical to say, yes, | :16:22. | :16:26. | |
we are reducing services in given areas because of the austerity in | :16:26. | :16:29. | |
which we're in. People recognise that, but when it comes to local | :16:29. | :16:33. | |
Government, we'll not only cut, not only ask them to be efficient, but | :16:33. | :16:37. | |
we'll pass responsibilities to them that they didn't previously have and | :16:37. | :16:40. | |
then we'll pretend that this is going to happen in a way that there | :16:40. | :16:44. | |
won't be a deterioration. There will be a deterioration in services here. | :16:44. | :16:49. | |
And the responsibility for that is shared and particularly if there is | :16:49. | :16:54. | |
less money coming from central Government. I don't think that needs | :16:54. | :17:01. | |
a great cull pability, a great admission of doing things wrong. Cut | :17:01. | :17:05. | |
backs are taking place in every department of Government. You be | :17:05. | :17:12. | |
more honest? We are being very clear and honest. What about a | :17:12. | :17:16. | |
deterioration in services? We have seen public satisfaction with | :17:16. | :17:20. | |
council services going up. That's because councils are being | :17:20. | :17:23. | |
innovative and doing more for less. That's a good thing. There are | :17:23. | :17:27. | |
councils out there doing great work in that regard. It's important to | :17:27. | :17:31. | |
note that it's not fair to say urban areas will need to spend more than | :17:31. | :17:36. | |
rural areas. Some rural areas will argue because of sparsity there are | :17:36. | :17:39. | |
other pressures. There is a different type of pressure and | :17:39. | :17:42. | |
response they have to give. That's why it's important that these | :17:42. | :17:45. | |
decisions are made locally by local authorities that understand and care | :17:45. | :17:49. | |
about their local area. Thank you very much. | :17:49. | :17:53. | |
Now this morning, the chief executive and chairman of Lloyds | :17:53. | :17:58. | |
banking group have been questioned by the Treasury Select Committee | :17:58. | :18:03. | |
about the failed sale of 632 bank branches to the Co-op. A deal was | :18:03. | :18:07. | |
instruct with the Co-operative Group last summer but has unravelled after | :18:07. | :18:11. | |
it emerged the group is facing a capital black hole of up to �1 | :18:11. | :18:16. | |
billion. The Co-op pulled out of the deal in April and announced a rescue | :18:16. | :18:21. | |
plan yesterday morning. The Lloyds chairman was asked whether | :18:21. | :18:25. | |
politicians pressured them into accepting the bid? Is it true, as | :18:25. | :18:32. | |
has been alleged, that the decision to a award Verde to the Co-op was | :18:32. | :18:36. | |
made on political rather than commercial grounds? No. It is not. | :18:36. | :18:42. | |
What the board looked at was financial and execution, the ability | :18:42. | :18:49. | |
to execute. Those were the only two things that we looked at. There was | :18:49. | :18:59. | |
:18:59. | :19:01. | ||
no political pressure? Yoo no. And no indirect contact via others? | :19:01. | :19:08. | |
No direct contact either to me or, I think, to Antonio, no the other way | :19:08. | :19:14. | |
around. Well, we've been joined by the Conservative MP David Davis who | :19:14. | :19:18. | |
chaired the future banking commission in 2010. What went wrong? | :19:18. | :19:24. | |
Oh, so many things went wrong. I mean, today's evidence is incredible | :19:24. | :19:30. | |
really. They're supposed to have done due diligence. That's so you | :19:30. | :19:34. | |
see the facts. When they were doing that, the Co-op was losing 50 | :19:34. | :19:40. | |
million a month. Writing off 300 million of debts. They clearly | :19:40. | :19:43. | |
didn't do the work. When you do this sort of business, you look for red | :19:43. | :19:50. | |
flags. This had more red flags than a minefield. You say there wasn't | :19:50. | :19:54. | |
dew -- due diligence. So not enough work was done rather than they did | :19:54. | :20:00. | |
the work but still wept ahead with what looked like a rotten deal? | :20:00. | :20:04. | |
committee was quite gentle with them today. The Co-op had trouble taken | :20:04. | :20:07. | |
over the Britannia Building Society, that was failing. It was having | :20:07. | :20:12. | |
trouble with its profit making. It was losing money. Now, we know, it's | :20:12. | :20:18. | |
1. 5 billion in the hole. This is only six months after the deal was | :20:18. | :20:22. | |
struck. What's changed in the last six months? Next to nothing. Either | :20:22. | :20:26. | |
they did a terrible job of due diligence or they did a loose one | :20:26. | :20:30. | |
because they were encouraged to dot deal. You don't believe them when | :20:30. | :20:33. | |
they say there was no political pressure? I think there's something | :20:33. | :20:38. | |
wrong with this deal. That's what I know. I can't tell you, because I | :20:38. | :20:41. | |
wasn't in the room. But there's something wrong with the deal. | :20:41. | :20:44. | |
due know there was something wrong with the deal once it became clear | :20:45. | :20:52. | |
there was a 1. . 5 billion black hole in the Co-op's finances, which | :20:52. | :20:54. | |
does beggar belief that no-one spotted that. They're inside, we're | :20:54. | :20:59. | |
not. When it finished, the other bidder wrote to me. When I got the | :20:59. | :21:02. | |
letter I thought well, this might just be a sore loser. I handed it | :21:02. | :21:08. | |
over to the PAC just in case. What's happened is everything he predicted | :21:08. | :21:15. | |
then, the failure of every part of the system has come true. That | :21:15. | :21:21. | |
letter that he sent to me and others was given to chairman Bischoff in | :21:21. | :21:27. | |
January of last year. What do you think? Well, let me just say at the | :21:27. | :21:32. | |
beginning, I'm disappointed that the mutual status of the Co-op is now | :21:32. | :21:39. | |
under threat. Because I really believe in muchuals. The Government | :21:39. | :21:48. | |
-- mutuals. The Government has expressed this as well. This looks | :21:48. | :21:50. | |
complete completely botched. At worst, there's a whiff in the air. | :21:50. | :21:52. | |
There are two questions, the first is - does the question have a | :21:52. | :21:57. | |
strategic interest in the banks that it's nationalised and the stability | :21:57. | :22:02. | |
of the economy in. A general sense, yes. We might disagree in that | :22:02. | :22:06. | |
because David is more of a Libertarian on these issues. The | :22:06. | :22:11. | |
real question is in this instance, was there a nod and a wink, was | :22:11. | :22:20. | |
there a political decision taken to en encourage these events to happen | :22:20. | :22:26. | |
which in retrospect seem very, very popped, at the least, and possibly | :22:26. | :22:32. | |
catastrophic. Who would benefit? don't disgree over the importance of | :22:32. | :22:38. | |
the Government having a strategic view. But that should have been up | :22:38. | :22:43. | |
front. There's a rule of law problem when you let two people bid if | :22:43. | :22:47. | |
you're only going to allow one to win. There are issues with that. | :22:47. | :22:51. | |
It's right we have an interest. Otherwise the economy won't recover. | :22:51. | :22:56. | |
Why not the alternative bid? The evidence this morning, as the chief | :22:56. | :22:59. | |
executive and chair of Lloyds said the money wasn't there in NBNK's | :22:59. | :23:05. | |
bid. True. That is simply not true. It was going to be there in escrow | :23:05. | :23:10. | |
up to �730 million. I know he said that. It's not the case. Similarly, | :23:10. | :23:14. | |
it said the bid wasn't underwritten. Who provided the underwriting for | :23:14. | :23:19. | |
the Co-op? Lloyds did. This bid was put in by the biggest players in the | :23:19. | :23:26. | |
City, Aviva, foreign and colonial investment. All sorts of big | :23:26. | :23:29. | |
players, who wouldn't have set it up unless they intended to fund it. | :23:29. | :23:38. | |
What now for Lloyds? They have got to do this branch sell off. They | :23:38. | :23:42. | |
will do an IPO. Nobody involved in this decision should have any share | :23:42. | :23:46. | |
options in that float, nobody. Because I don't want anybody who has | :23:46. | :23:49. | |
made this much of a botch of it to profit from it. Though that's | :23:49. | :23:52. | |
probably not what the Treasury is thinking. Well, I think the Treasury | :23:52. | :23:55. | |
may have trouble with the House of Commons when we come to that | :23:55. | :23:59. | |
position. ?Oh, yeah. These people have clearly maed a mess of. This | :23:59. | :24:03. | |
they've damaged one of the great institutions of our country, the | :24:03. | :24:08. | |
Co-op in doing so... Well is the Co-op damaged? Somebody might think | :24:08. | :24:13. | |
it's a great deal that it's going to save the bank, including the chief, | :24:13. | :24:17. | |
which is unsurprising. Joot Co-op has been a very successful | :24:17. | :24:21. | |
organisation. Yes it needed to modernise and so on. It did it on | :24:21. | :24:26. | |
mutual basis. It was probably the preeminent mutual society. It wasn't | :24:26. | :24:30. | |
on the Stock Exchange. It wasn't just controlled by a group of small | :24:30. | :24:34. | |
shareholders and so on. In that sense, yes, this has damaged it. | :24:34. | :24:37. | |
Reputationally it will damage it as well. Especially since they're | :24:38. | :24:42. | |
talking about the bond holders and that, many of whom may well be | :24:42. | :24:48. | |
pensioners having to take a cut on their investment and get cut back. | :24:48. | :24:51. | |
There will be short-term loss for long-term gain in that sense? Do you | :24:51. | :24:56. | |
think the culture of bank will change? Of the Co-op?Yes. Because | :24:56. | :25:01. | |
shares will be owned by commercial investors? John's right. You need | :25:01. | :25:06. | |
all sorts, you need an ecosystem. You need limited liability companies | :25:06. | :25:09. | |
and mutual companies in a stable system. We have lost one of the part | :25:09. | :25:13. | |
system. That's a bad thing. , thank you very much. We'll no doubt return | :25:13. | :25:18. | |
to this in the future. You might be forgiven for thinking there is very | :25:18. | :25:23. | |
little new left to say about the NHS in England, after recent reforms and | :25:23. | :25:27. | |
endless debate. But the leading health think-tank the King's Fund | :25:27. | :25:34. | |
has found another issue to discuss. Today, they're launching a | :25:34. | :25:36. | |
commission into health and social care questioning whether the | :25:36. | :25:40. | |
boundary between the two needs to be redrawn. The King's Fund says the | :25:40. | :25:44. | |
health system faces a series of challenges this century, including | :25:45. | :25:50. | |
increasing costs of care, a growing and ageing population. The current | :25:50. | :25:54. | |
system, established after World War II, has remained unchanged with the | :25:54. | :25:59. | |
NHS free at the point of use, while social care is means tested. At the | :25:59. | :26:03. | |
moment, some aspects of social care are paid for by local authorities, | :26:03. | :26:08. | |
not from the NHS budget. As we've also discussed, local councils are | :26:08. | :26:11. | |
warning further cuts to their budgets will increase pressure on | :26:11. | :26:15. | |
the services they provide. Elderly people are also expected to | :26:15. | :26:18. | |
contribute to the costs of their own social care. Although the Government | :26:18. | :26:27. | |
plans to cap this at �72,000 from 2016. The King's Fund also questions | :26:27. | :26:30. | |
whether the relationship between health and social care staff is good | :26:30. | :26:35. | |
enough. The Government has made a commitment to have a fully joined up | :26:35. | :26:39. | |
health and social care service by 2018. Well, we've been joined by | :26:39. | :26:42. | |
Chris Ham from the King's Fund and by the minister for social care, | :26:42. | :26:48. | |
Norman Lamb. Welcome to both of you. Why is this review needed? We seem | :26:48. | :26:53. | |
to know most of what I've said. What are we going to learn? We believe | :26:53. | :26:55. | |
now is the time to do a fundamental review, not just of how the currents | :26:55. | :26:59. | |
system works but whether it's the right system for the future. I would | :26:59. | :27:04. | |
have an ageing population. We have people who don't just have one | :27:04. | :27:08. | |
health care need but several. They span health and social care. | :27:08. | :27:12. | |
Successive governments have tried to get local authorities and NHS | :27:12. | :27:16. | |
organisations to work together with limited success. We believe it's | :27:16. | :27:20. | |
long overdue to reexamine what happened in 1948 when the NHS was | :27:20. | :27:24. | |
set up and local authorities were given responsibility for social care | :27:24. | :27:27. | |
and ask how to bring them closer together and bring about | :27:27. | :27:31. | |
improvements in care for older people who most need that care. | :27:32. | :27:35. | |
agree that health and social care funding should be brought together? | :27:35. | :27:39. | |
We argue that now is the time to address that question seriously. We | :27:39. | :27:43. | |
think there are ways of doing it within the existing system that may | :27:43. | :27:48. | |
not go far enough. Within the existing system, in other words | :27:48. | :27:55. | |
still allowing councils to be the ash tors and -- arbitors and | :27:55. | :28:00. | |
distributors of social care? limited option would be to pool | :28:00. | :28:04. | |
councils to get organisations to agree to share resources. The | :28:04. | :28:08. | |
radical option would be to say let's break down that barrier entirely, | :28:08. | :28:12. | |
have a single pool of money paying for both health and social care. | :28:12. | :28:17. | |
What you would like to see? Well, I think Chris and I are complete lay | :28:17. | :28:21. | |
greed that the model of care has to change completely. So we have to be | :28:21. | :28:26. | |
open minded about all the different options. The idea of just being able | :28:27. | :28:30. | |
to work from one budget for the needs of people, individual patients | :28:30. | :28:33. | |
don't understand the difference between health care and social care. | :28:33. | :28:37. | |
They just want to receive care. The idea of breaking down this barrier I | :28:37. | :28:42. | |
think is immensely attractive. are in favour of having one fund, | :28:42. | :28:47. | |
really, from which all care would come, including social care? | :28:47. | :28:51. | |
question is whether you do that as a national settlement, where you just | :28:51. | :28:54. | |
change this arrangement, whereby you have the NHS and local authorities | :28:54. | :28:59. | |
or whether you get it to happen the -- at the local level. What we're | :28:59. | :29:03. | |
doing in Government is making it happen locally. We have set a tough | :29:03. | :29:08. | |
ambition to get to a fully integrated system by 2018. We have | :29:08. | :29:11. | |
pioneers that we're going to announce in septs that will really | :29:12. | :29:17. | |
push the boundaries -- September. All the best countries in health | :29:17. | :29:20. | |
terms are doing this. They recognise that the big challenge is people | :29:20. | :29:23. | |
living for many years with chronic conditions and we're not caring for | :29:23. | :29:26. | |
them very well. That's the challenge. We're not delivering good | :29:26. | :29:32. | |
care and it's not a sustainable system. Is this new? When you were | :29:32. | :29:36. | |
Health Secretary, people were talking about closer integration | :29:36. | :29:41. | |
between community care and hospital care, for example. Do you agree with | :29:41. | :29:46. | |
what Norman Lamb is saying? As it happens, I think both are spot on. | :29:46. | :29:51. | |
Let's leave aside our differences and address the key question: There | :29:51. | :29:56. | |
are two mammoth organisations. When I was Health Secretary there was | :29:56. | :30:00. | |
about 1. 25 million people in the NHS and the same again and more in | :30:00. | :30:06. | |
social care. Just behind the red army. Yeah they used to say apart | :30:06. | :30:10. | |
from the Indian railways and Chinese Red Army, it was the largest | :30:10. | :30:14. | |
organisation in the world. However, what has changed over the past 25 | :30:14. | :30:18. | |
years? It is the demographic changes. We're growing older, much | :30:18. | :30:24. | |
older than we were. We're being sustained in life by new | :30:24. | :30:28. | |
pharmaceuticals, new technology and so on. That means in the future, | :30:28. | :30:33. | |
actually, most of the illnesses, the problem addressing them won't ab | :30:33. | :30:37. | |
cute operations in hospitals, it will be chronic illnesses which | :30:37. | :30:42. | |
requires care in the community. The big gap that used to be seen between | :30:42. | :30:48. | |
care and hospital operations and medical side is disappearing because | :30:48. | :30:52. | |
of social change. Why hasn't that happened? I've had endless | :30:52. | :30:55. | |
discussions about this. Everybody recognises the problem and actually | :30:56. | :30:57. | |
recognises the problem and actually recognises the problem and actually | :30:57. | :31:05. | |
put forward solutions. It has happened incrementally, we | :31:05. | :31:11. | |
introduced the number -- increased the number of community nurses and | :31:11. | :31:16. | |
local health centres in the community, we expanded GP practices. | :31:16. | :31:20. | |
That was incremental movement towards it. What our guests today | :31:20. | :31:26. | |
are saying is that we really need to look at a big, strategic radical | :31:26. | :31:31. | |
change, perhaps years out. We have already had a big, strategic radical | :31:31. | :31:36. | |
change. Can the health service cope with a different one? With respect, | :31:36. | :31:41. | |
it was the wrong one. What Norman and the government have said is that | :31:41. | :31:46. | |
we will move some of the NHS budget to social care to help hard-pressed | :31:46. | :31:50. | |
council is not to have to rush and social care to needy older people, | :31:50. | :31:55. | |
because the two systems need to work together, that is where we need to | :31:55. | :32:01. | |
focus. You made the wrong change? This is the model of care, not | :32:01. | :32:07. | |
structural change. I would say we are in agreement... Except he says | :32:07. | :32:11. | |
the reorganisation was not the right thing to do. Two you ask why it has | :32:11. | :32:15. | |
not happened so far. The stars are lying snow and, critically, every | :32:15. | :32:21. | |
part of the system recognises that unless change happens it will | :32:21. | :32:31. | |
:32:31. | :32:31. | ||
collapse. Reign and across parties. Then the more we can take the public | :32:31. | :32:39. | |
with us. I am not a conservative, I am a Liberal Democrat. You are in | :32:39. | :32:46. | |
coalition. And I have argued from the moment I got into the Department | :32:46. | :32:51. | |
for health, I think it is really happening. Your commission wants to | :32:51. | :32:56. | |
ask if the entitlements and criteria used to access who can access health | :32:56. | :33:02. | |
and care be aligned. Social care is means tested. Do you want to apply | :33:02. | :33:08. | |
means testing to parts of the NHS? We have set up a commission to look | :33:08. | :33:15. | |
into that. But the logic of that question is we should look at means | :33:15. | :33:18. | |
testing. We have not spoken about affordability and the difference in | :33:18. | :33:23. | |
the budgets for the NHS and what councils receive for social care. | :33:24. | :33:28. | |
But if you put them together, would you have to consider means testing | :33:28. | :33:32. | |
part of the NHS? If we are revisiting the post-war settlement, | :33:32. | :33:37. | |
you should not leave anything off the table. But we believe there is a | :33:37. | :33:43. | |
lot of scope for using existing spending more efficiently. We spent | :33:43. | :33:48. | |
105 �15 billion on the NHS, �15 billion on social care. Nobody says | :33:48. | :33:52. | |
every pound is spent wisely and efficiently. If we did not have | :33:52. | :33:57. | |
people in hospitals who could be cared for at home if the money was | :33:57. | :34:06. | |
used flexibly, we would save on the wastage expenditure on expensive | :34:06. | :34:07. | |
hospital treatment and help people to be supported where they want to | :34:07. | :34:14. | |
be. So you will reduce the NHS budget and shift it to social care? | :34:14. | :34:18. | |
We need to shift from repair to prevention. That is where we have | :34:18. | :34:21. | |
made too much investment over the years, we have to stop people | :34:22. | :34:29. | |
getting ill in the first place. it wrong to ring fence NHS spending? | :34:29. | :34:33. | |
I think it was right, it has given us the capacity now to do quite | :34:33. | :34:39. | |
exciting things with Health and Social Care Bill. The other big | :34:39. | :34:44. | |
collaboration is between the statutory services in the | :34:44. | :34:47. | |
community, people and neighbourhoods. Lots of people in | :34:47. | :34:51. | |
retirement have time on their hands and want to give something back to | :34:51. | :34:56. | |
their community, to neighbours. If we can unleash that power, together | :34:56. | :35:02. | |
with the statutory services, we have a potential solution. When will the | :35:02. | :35:06. | |
report be finished? The interim report, early next year, the final | :35:06. | :35:11. | |
report in September, to feed into the election debate. There are holes | :35:11. | :35:14. | |
in the NHS ring fence. The money that has been earmarked and | :35:14. | :35:19. | |
protected, some of that is being transferred to local authorities to | :35:20. | :35:24. | |
deal with their funding pressures. That is only a short-term sticking | :35:24. | :35:29. | |
plaster solution. There is so much political consensus that now is the | :35:29. | :35:36. | |
time to do that. C if anything can be agreed and done. Reign it is | :35:36. | :35:44. | |
great that you are doing it. Apprenticeships should be as valued | :35:44. | :35:47. | |
as a university degree - that's the view of Business Secretary Vince | :35:47. | :35:50. | |
Cable, who has pledged to boost the image of apprentices, as well as | :35:51. | :35:53. | |
increasing their numbers. More than half a million people started an | :35:53. | :35:56. | |
apprenticeship last year, and the government is aiming for almost four | :35:56. | :35:58. | |
million to have completed an apprenticeship scheme by 2022. This | :35:58. | :36:02. | |
is what David Cameron said to young workers at a car factory during | :36:02. | :36:08. | |
National Apprenticeship Week. Apprenticeships, and investing in | :36:08. | :36:11. | |
apprenticeships, is a win-win situation. It is good for you | :36:11. | :36:15. | |
because you get the chance to acquire skills which mean you can | :36:15. | :36:18. | |
have a worthwhile career. There is some research evidence out recently | :36:18. | :36:22. | |
that shows that if you do a higher-level apprenticeship, it | :36:22. | :36:29. | |
raises the earning potential in your life by �150,000. So it is a win for | :36:29. | :36:32. | |
the people undertaking the apprenticeships. It is a win for the | :36:32. | :36:36. | |
companies, because the government is putting money into apprenticeships, | :36:36. | :36:39. | |
allowing companies to access great training and great skills which will | :36:39. | :36:47. | |
be good for the companies. But it is a win for the country. | :36:47. | :36:49. | |
This morning, Business Secretary Vince Cable was out spreading the | :36:49. | :36:52. | |
word and giving awards to the Apprentice Team of the Year. Dr | :36:52. | :36:56. | |
Cable is with us now, and we're also joined by Julie White, managing | :36:56. | :36:58. | |
director of the Coventry-based concrete cutting firm D-Drill, where | :36:58. | :37:00. | |
almost half the staff are apprentices or came through their | :37:00. | :37:05. | |
apprentice scheme. Welcome to the Daily Politics. | :37:05. | :37:09. | |
Vince Cable, you want to increase the number of apprentices with a | :37:09. | :37:14. | |
target of creating almost 4 million between now and 2022, how will you | :37:14. | :37:18. | |
do that in the shadow of the Spending Review? There has been a | :37:18. | :37:23. | |
massive expansion since we came in to government, and although my | :37:23. | :37:27. | |
department has come under significant cuts, I decided we | :37:27. | :37:29. | |
wanted to prioritise apprenticeships and we have virtually doubled the | :37:29. | :37:34. | |
number. We got half a million kids going through the system, mostly | :37:34. | :37:38. | |
young people that some adults, this year, and there 1 million | :37:38. | :37:43. | |
altogether. But it is not just numbers, it is about quality. We | :37:43. | :37:48. | |
have cut out some of the shorter courses and are concentrating on | :37:48. | :37:52. | |
advanced apprenticeships. Two or three years? You have to be the | :37:52. | :37:57. | |
minimum of a year, there were some short courses before which were not | :37:57. | :38:02. | |
really apprenticeships. What about the age of apprentices? You say the | :38:02. | :38:06. | |
figures have expanded while you were in government, but the figures show | :38:06. | :38:14. | |
that the number of apprenticeships for under 19 dropped in 2011/12. | :38:14. | :38:17. | |
other age groups have expanded massively. There is an issue with | :38:17. | :38:24. | |
young people. Apprenticeships is treated as a serious training | :38:24. | :38:29. | |
opportunity, not something you walk into. We envisage a preliminary | :38:29. | :38:33. | |
stage called a traineeship, where you get work experience and basic | :38:33. | :38:39. | |
English and maths. Then they become an apprentice. Julie White, because | :38:39. | :38:43. | |
apprentices, as I understand, are paid less than the minimum wage when | :38:43. | :38:50. | |
they start, is there a danger of them being used as cheap labour? | :38:50. | :38:56. | |
think that might be right in some larger companies, but at D-Drill we | :38:56. | :39:03. | |
pay our apprentices �1 under a qualified apprentice. Because they | :39:03. | :39:07. | |
can't reduce very quickly and we make money from them. So they are | :39:07. | :39:09. | |
the lifeblood of the company and have a great feeling for the | :39:09. | :39:14. | |
company. We keep talking about too many of the bigger companies talking | :39:14. | :39:23. | |
about apprentices, there are 5 million SMEs out there, you should | :39:23. | :39:29. | |
be getting us to take apprentices. Why is it such a problem for SMEs to | :39:29. | :39:39. | |
:39:39. | :39:39. | ||
get apprentices set up? They are often very busy. With a lot of small | :39:39. | :39:43. | |
compass -- companies, they train somebody at great expense and time | :39:43. | :39:47. | |
and then they drift off, they can't retain them. But big companies find | :39:48. | :39:52. | |
it easier to lock people in. We recognise the problem. We are trying | :39:52. | :39:58. | |
to make the system work more smoothly and we are giving them | :39:58. | :40:03. | |
financial incentives, �1500 if they take on an extra apprentice. There | :40:03. | :40:12. | |
is a cash incentive. We need to work on this. How easy is it for a small | :40:12. | :40:17. | |
company to get an apprentice? paperwork is astronomical, and | :40:17. | :40:21. | |
although the National Apprenticeship Week 's help, it is still tough. We | :40:21. | :40:24. | |
are in one of the biggest recessions, hopefully coming out, | :40:24. | :40:30. | |
but we need more help. �1500 is nothing when you want to bring in an | :40:30. | :40:33. | |
apprentice, because it is the livelihood of all those companies | :40:33. | :40:40. | |
coming through. But it is a drop in the ocean. This is from somebody... | :40:40. | :40:46. | |
We would like to do more. But you haven't got the money. Indeed, but | :40:46. | :40:53. | |
we are giving it a priority. This is your priority? We are doing more | :40:53. | :40:56. | |
apprenticeships than anything else, but it is alongside supporting | :40:56. | :41:01. | |
technology and universities, too. Julie, you mentioned this database | :41:01. | :41:06. | |
idea, explain a little bit. If it is difficult to access the apprentices | :41:06. | :41:13. | |
you want, or too difficult, what would a database do? Concrete | :41:13. | :41:16. | |
cutting is very specialist, you can't get our workers from | :41:16. | :41:20. | |
university or college or anywhere, so we have to home grow them. So we | :41:21. | :41:23. | |
thought that once an apprentice has been through a construction company | :41:23. | :41:28. | |
and does not have a full-time job, because some of them don't, there is | :41:28. | :41:36. | |
not enough work, why can't I access those people? One, they have decided | :41:36. | :41:41. | |
to go into construction, two, they usually want to work, but I have | :41:41. | :41:46. | |
been told I can't access them because of data protection. That is | :41:46. | :41:52. | |
ridiculous. What do you say? I think it is a good idea, I don't | :41:52. | :41:58. | |
understand the data protection problem, I would have to look at it. | :41:58. | :42:00. | |
We already have a talent retention scheme for qualified people. If you | :42:00. | :42:03. | |
get a redundant engineer from the aerospace industry, they are fed | :42:04. | :42:10. | |
into the system. We need to know about this. I don't see why we can't | :42:10. | :42:14. | |
extend this to apprenticeships. this the way the government should | :42:14. | :42:18. | |
be going, focusing attention and what money there is on building up | :42:18. | :42:26. | |
apprenticeships? I think that Vince's prioritisation of this is | :42:26. | :42:31. | |
important, not just in terms of the economy but in fairness. This is the | :42:31. | :42:36. | |
forgotten 50%. There is an obsessive discussion about universities, which | :42:36. | :42:41. | |
I understand, but this is the lifeblood of the economy, | :42:41. | :42:45. | |
engineering, scientific, manufacturing sectors. Vince, cut | :42:45. | :42:52. | |
down the bureaucracy, make it easier and go online. Let's have an | :42:52. | :42:55. | |
exchange of names and possible potential apprentices for small | :42:55. | :43:00. | |
companies. My one worry would be the point that you made, that last year | :43:00. | :43:06. | |
there was an increase in 16 to 18-year-olds -- there was not an | :43:06. | :43:10. | |
increase in 16 to 18-year-old, there was a drop. David Cameron was | :43:10. | :43:14. | |
speaking to people that age, so we have a lot more apprentices, but | :43:14. | :43:21. | |
many are over 25. There is a 10,000 drop in the 16 to 18-year-olds. | :43:21. | :43:25. | |
health and safety, we cannot get them onto a construction site if | :43:25. | :43:30. | |
they are not 18 and above. We have got one thing going against us, then | :43:30. | :43:37. | |
another. So how will you get young people into... ? But you can go into | :43:37. | :43:42. | |
conflict in the Army at 17 but not construction. | :43:42. | :43:47. | |
This is massively oversimplifying, we do not want people killing | :43:47. | :43:51. | |
themselves. What about the value of an apprenticeship? You say you have | :43:51. | :43:56. | |
dealt with quality, but what are you doing to equate it to a business | :43:56. | :44:00. | |
degree, for example? And that I think there is still an awful lot of | :44:00. | :44:04. | |
snobbery around the fact that, perhaps, they are not as good as | :44:04. | :44:11. | |
university degrees. That deeply entrenched apartheid between the | :44:11. | :44:20. | |
qualification... We have to... them all? If you get into an | :44:20. | :44:21. | |
advanced engineering apprenticeship, you are actually | :44:21. | :44:25. | |
already doing a degree. The group of apprentices I met this morning, the | :44:25. | :44:31. | |
team leader is doing a degree. He started on the shopfloor, became an | :44:31. | :44:35. | |
apprentice and is doing a degree equivalent. That route is available | :44:35. | :44:41. | |
for those who work hard and have the academic and vocational skills. | :44:41. | :44:45. | |
you think apprentices are undervalued by the public bastion | :44:45. | :44:49. | |
mark yes, the word apprentice has been so downtrodden for so long. | :44:49. | :44:54. | |
have we made it about a degree is everything in life? The Swiss, the | :44:54. | :44:58. | |
Austrians, the Germans, apprenticeship is everything. My | :44:58. | :45:01. | |
whole management team have come through an apprenticeship course. | :45:01. | :45:08. | |
Why have we devalued it so much? Vince Cable, you are quoted today as | :45:08. | :45:16. | |
the grumpy old man. I am often cheerful and I don't regard myself | :45:16. | :45:26. | |
:45:26. | :45:33. | ||
as old! I take that back!But I have strong views about the needs to | :45:33. | :45:37. | |
invest in skills and technology and backing up the brilliant work that | :45:37. | :45:39. | |
people like Julie are doing. Will you settle with George Osborne | :45:39. | :45:41. | |
before next week? We have not yet, that we have amicable, businesslike | :45:41. | :45:43. | |
discussions. It is not winning or losing, hopefully we will all win. | :45:43. | :45:48. | |
There is a compromise to be done, but you are worried about a false | :45:48. | :45:53. | |
economy? I don't think we should even think about false economies, | :45:53. | :45:56. | |
cutting back on badly needed investment in areas like skills. I | :45:56. | :46:00. | |
think there is a way through and I will happily negotiate. I wouldn't | :46:00. | :46:05. | |
say happily. But we are having good, even tempered, businesslike | :46:06. | :46:10. | |
discussions. That is what you say in public, are you worried about going | :46:10. | :46:16. | |
to the Star chamber? I describe that as amateur theatricals. We will | :46:16. | :46:21. | |
continue to talk to the Treasury. They are the key in this. It is mean | :46:21. | :46:26. | |
to ask you to do this, briefly, but what do you think is the best way to | :46:26. | :46:30. | |
return Lloyds to private ownership? I don't want to anticipate what the | :46:30. | :46:35. | |
Chancellor will say. And we have only got the Parliamentary | :46:35. | :46:39. | |
commission report just coming out today. We have to try to die just | :46:39. | :46:43. | |
that. I think most of us, looking at it, recognise that Lloyds is in a | :46:43. | :46:47. | |
somewhat different position from RBS. But what that means in terms of | :46:47. | :46:54. | |
timing and the detail, I think you have to wait. A quick sell-off?I | :46:54. | :47:04. | |
:47:04. | :47:05. | ||
think not, let's let the Chancellor say. I will not anticipate. When we | :47:05. | :47:11. | |
hear the word psychopath we tend to think of Hannibal Lecter. But not | :47:11. | :47:15. | |
only do our politicians share some personality trats but it's a good | :47:16. | :47:21. | |
thing. It's a theory put forward by Dr Kevin Dutton. He argues in order | :47:21. | :47:24. | |
to be effective our leaders have to have something of the night about | :47:24. | :47:34. | |
:47:34. | :47:36. | ||
them. Here's a slightly scary We're going to do something a little | :47:36. | :47:40. | |
unusual on the Dalily politics today. We're going to take you | :47:41. | :47:47. | |
inside the mind of one of Britain's greatest political leaders. One who | :47:47. | :47:55. | |
allegedly shared some of the personality trats of the psychopath. | :47:55. | :48:00. | |
Robert Hardy has played Churchill to critical acclaim. He's also got into | :48:00. | :48:10. | |
:48:10. | :48:12. | ||
character to take part in a study of psychology. Do I understand why in | :48:13. | :48:18. | |
spite of his emotional nature and his good nature and his generosity | :48:18. | :48:23. | |
of spirit, why he was able to take these killing decisions, the answer | :48:24. | :48:30. | |
is sheer courage. Clear vision has to be done, can't bear the thought | :48:30. | :48:39. | |
of doing it, have to do it. Call on courage. It's not just Winston. Dr | :48:39. | :48:42. | |
Kevin Dutton and some of his colleagues asked buy yog fares of | :48:42. | :48:45. | |
some of the world's leading political figures to take the same | :48:45. | :48:52. | |
test on behalf of their subjects. He found that many share personality | :48:52. | :48:57. | |
traits with criminal psychopaths. They're charming, charismatic, cool | :48:57. | :49:00. | |
under pressure, self-confident. If you think of the jobs that | :49:00. | :49:03. | |
politicians would have to do, some of the decision that's they make, | :49:03. | :49:10. | |
those traits can come in handy in that line of work. Before you jam | :49:10. | :49:14. | |
the switchboards, bear with us. Dr Kevin Dutton's point is that | :49:14. | :49:18. | |
actually a little bit of psychopath in our politicians isn't just good | :49:18. | :49:23. | |
for society, it's vital. In any kind of job where you've got to make | :49:23. | :49:27. | |
tough decisions, or you've got to be cool under pressure, where you have | :49:27. | :49:31. | |
to be charming and charismatic and not necessarily always dot thing | :49:31. | :49:38. | |
which you would like to be liked for, I think you need psychopathic | :49:38. | :49:42. | |
qualities in order to discharge those duties. So I think in the | :49:42. | :49:47. | |
right context and at the right level and I think broadly speaking, | :49:47. | :49:51. | |
politicians stick to those parameters. We have need | :49:51. | :49:57. | |
psychopathic traits. Theory. But to those who've been up close to | :49:57. | :50:02. | |
political greatness buy it? I go back to the time where I was in | :50:02. | :50:04. | |
Conservative central office, the years and thousands of pounds we | :50:04. | :50:12. | |
wasted on trying, for instance, to make Margaret Thatcher appear kind | :50:12. | :50:16. | |
and cuddly. Complete waste of time. She wasn't kind of cuddly. She was | :50:16. | :50:23. | |
somebody would got things done. Fay told her that she was, she had | :50:23. | :50:26. | |
psychopathic ten densies, I suspect herries would have glinted at me and | :50:26. | :50:32. | |
then a nod, yes, she didn't want to be loved. She didn't want to be like | :50:32. | :50:37. | |
everybody else. Lord Dobbs created arguably the greatest political | :50:37. | :50:41. | |
psychopath of all time. No politician wants to be like him, do | :50:41. | :50:46. | |
they? The only people that I'm aware of, the only politicians who I'm | :50:46. | :50:55. | |
aware of who are upset by writing about Francis Erkhart. They ask if | :50:55. | :51:01. | |
it was them. It wasn't. It was a xozity figure of many people that I | :51:01. | :51:05. | |
met and studies. -- studied. Our politicians might not be add or | :51:05. | :51:10. | |
dangerous to know, but could they be dangerous to know? You might think | :51:10. | :51:18. | |
that. I couldn't possibly comment. How very chilling. David Thompson | :51:18. | :51:24. | |
reporting. We're joined by the psych therapist, Lucy Beresford. Is it a | :51:24. | :51:28. | |
bit of an exaggeration to say that great political leaders share some | :51:28. | :51:35. | |
of the personality traits of a psychopath. It is. Personality | :51:35. | :51:41. | |
traits aren't mutually exclusive. In lots of ind steroids you want -- | :51:41. | :51:45. | |
industries you want people to be Ruthless, making quick decisions, | :51:45. | :51:48. | |
having emotional detachment. The surgeon who operated on my wrist | :51:48. | :51:52. | |
last week, I needed him to be detached. You probably need to have | :51:53. | :51:56. | |
those certain traits. It doesn't mean to say you're a psychopath. | :51:56. | :52:02. | |
Helpful? They talked about Winston Churchill, one of the greatest, is | :52:02. | :52:06. | |
it helpful to say that the personality traits of a psychopath | :52:06. | :52:10. | |
are those that a successful politician needs to have, so whether | :52:10. | :52:14. | |
it's charming, ruthless, cool under pressure, self-confident, who does | :52:15. | :52:20. | |
that remind you of? I don't think it's particularly helpful. It makes | :52:20. | :52:23. | |
a great headline on a noon chat show politically. It's a good job you're | :52:24. | :52:31. | |
on one then. I'm in the a psychotherapist. A psychopath.Or | :52:31. | :52:35. | |
that. I understand the central thing here, I understand from what the | :52:35. | :52:38. | |
background I've been given to the programme is this question of | :52:38. | :52:44. | |
empathy and empathy being, as I understand it, the ability to | :52:44. | :52:49. | |
understand another person's emotions and feelings. It certainly is not a | :52:49. | :52:53. | |
helpful thing to have a lack of empathy as a politician. Have you to | :52:53. | :53:00. | |
be able to understand the emotional effect and the feelings of -- of the | :53:00. | :53:03. | |
people that your decisions affect. Equally, have you to be able - this | :53:03. | :53:08. | |
applies to all leaders in industry, military, politically, probably even | :53:08. | :53:14. | |
parents - you have to understand that while you can empathise with | :53:14. | :53:18. | |
somebody's emotions, that sometimes, for the longer term good, whatever | :53:18. | :53:20. | |
position you're in, including parents, have you to take a | :53:20. | :53:25. | |
particular decision. Now I don't regard that as psychopathy. That's a | :53:25. | :53:29. | |
degree of resolution and decisiveness, which is required in a | :53:29. | :53:33. | |
leading position. You have talked about empathy and everybody would | :53:33. | :53:38. | |
say absolutely. But to be a really successful leader is ruthlessness | :53:38. | :53:43. | |
not the critical factor? No, it isn't. Decisiveness is. Resolution | :53:43. | :53:49. | |
is. But if by ruthlessness you mean the capacity to take decisions | :53:49. | :53:53. | |
irrespective of people's feelings or because you are incapable of | :53:53. | :53:58. | |
understanding their feelings, that's an entirely different thing. Supreme | :53:58. | :54:01. | |
indifference towards other people is a trait of being a psychopath. There | :54:01. | :54:08. | |
is this great danger and it was touched on in a fabulous book by | :54:08. | :54:12. | |
Lord Owen in sickness and in power, which examined the mental health and | :54:12. | :54:17. | |
the physical health of quite a lot of the world's leaders over the last | :54:17. | :54:23. | |
100 years. It looked at things like megalomania and that ruthlessness | :54:23. | :54:29. | |
which is tied to enormous self-belief and a certain | :54:29. | :54:32. | |
restlessness of personality and perhaps an inattention to detail, | :54:32. | :54:36. | |
shall we say, that for some people, it's all about the big picture. | :54:36. | :54:40. | |
Looking at Tony Blair for example, what were the key personality trats | :54:40. | :54:44. | |
that made him, in your mind, such a successful leader in terms of the | :54:44. | :54:49. | |
number of terms he won? I think the intellectual capacity to understand | :54:49. | :54:57. | |
the changes in the modern world. He had an analystical mind to focus on | :54:57. | :55:02. | |
the strategic questions that had to be addressed. He was well aware that | :55:02. | :55:05. | |
some of the decisions he took would not be agreed with, would be | :55:05. | :55:07. | |
upsetting to people, but also he had an understanding, and this applies | :55:07. | :55:14. | |
toe all leaders, to decide is to divide. That's why opposition is | :55:14. | :55:17. | |
easy compared to Government in. Opposition you can give the | :55:17. | :55:18. | |
impression you're against everything. When you're in | :55:18. | :55:22. | |
Government you have to take a decision. When you do that, you have | :55:22. | :55:26. | |
to accept that there will be people who will into the gree with you and | :55:26. | :55:30. | |
many people who might be upset by it. But if you do not take that | :55:30. | :55:33. | |
decision, there'll be no movement forward at all. That thought for the | :55:33. | :55:37. | |
next bit of our programme. Lucy Beresford, thank you very much. Now | :55:37. | :55:42. | |
back to our quiz. A slightly different one from our usual style. | :55:42. | :55:47. | |
The question was: According to you, which of the following is the most | :55:47. | :55:54. | |
likely result of the 2015 general election. A, a Labour majority, B, a | :55:54. | :56:00. | |
Labour/Lib Dem coalition, C, a o Conservative/Lib Dem coalition or D, | :56:00. | :56:05. | |
a Conservative majority. Am I supposed to have said at some time? | :56:05. | :56:11. | |
No, your judgment. On the facts at the moment would suggest a small | :56:11. | :56:15. | |
Labour victory probably the order of 40 in the latest opinion polls. It | :56:15. | :56:22. | |
may well be that even a minority Labour Party could form a | :56:22. | :56:27. | |
Government. I think the most disastrous thing would be for Labour | :56:27. | :56:32. | |
to anticipate and work towards a coalition with the liberals. | :56:32. | :56:35. | |
Strategically that would be a very bad mistakes. There are good | :56:35. | :56:39. | |
individuals in the liberal party, you know Vince Cable and others who | :56:39. | :56:44. | |
have been on your programme today. But I think that if you believe that | :56:44. | :56:48. | |
you should work towards a coalition, and therefore you plan for defeat, | :56:48. | :56:53. | |
you will bring about that defeat. Speaking to Andrew Neil in April, | :56:53. | :56:59. | |
you said, " Now was the time for Ed Miliband to move the party from a | :56:59. | :57:03. | |
voice of protest to position of party as a potential Government." Is | :57:03. | :57:08. | |
he getting there? The present signs are yes. I said that I thought we | :57:08. | :57:12. | |
had to stop saying, we're against this and start saying what we would | :57:12. | :57:16. | |
do. That has happened now. Ed Miliband has done. It Ed Balls has | :57:16. | :57:21. | |
done it. You agree with those policy announcements that have been made, | :57:21. | :57:25. | |
the caps on welfare spending, universal benefits for rich pension | :57:26. | :57:29. | |
snerz I do. And the health and social care coming toghts. Liam | :57:29. | :57:34. | |
Byrne saying on welfare we have to reform and relate it more closely to | :57:34. | :57:41. | |
the contribution that you've made over the years. Stephen Twigg twig | :57:41. | :57:43. | |
yesterday on building... Did you understand what's the difference | :57:43. | :57:47. | |
between a parent-led academy and a free school? A free school has to | :57:47. | :57:51. | |
have a sponsor. It has to have a significant amount of money put in | :57:51. | :57:56. | |
by an individual or individuals. It also is part of the local planning | :57:56. | :58:01. | |
process, sorry an acad my meets those qualifications. A free school | :58:01. | :58:05. | |
is any school that's established at the behest of a group of parents. | :58:05. | :58:09. | |
They have similar attributes. The key thing is that he said that some | :58:09. | :58:13. | |
of the freedoms that have been extended under the Labour Government | :58:13. | :58:18. | |
to academies and... Will be taken on? No, should be extended to state | :58:18. | :58:24. | |
schools. That is the length of the day, the flexibility of the | :58:24. | :58:29. | |
curriculum and so on. I'm all for that. So, Stephen Twigg, Andy | :58:29. | :58:33. | |
Burnham, Liam Byrne, Ed Miliband and Ed balds, since I recommended that | :58:33. | :58:37. | |
we come out with policy direction, I'm glad to say... They've taken it | :58:37. | :58:41. | |
on board. On that note, we'll end it. Thank you very much to our guest | :58:41. | :58:44. | |
of the day John Reid and all our other guests. The one o'clock news | :58:44. | :58:49. |