02/07/2013 Daily Politics


02/07/2013

Jo Coburn is joined by David Blunkett to discuss the day's top political stories.


Similar Content

Browse content similar to 02/07/2013. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

government leaders meet in Manchester today for their annual

:00:39.:00:42.

shindig, and their leader thinks the way the government allocates and

:00:42.:00:47.

spends taxpayers' money is a load of rubbish. In fact, Sir Merrick

:00:47.:00:50.

Cockell thinks the current system should be completely overhauled, and

:00:50.:00:55.

he wants the PM to create a brand new department. We'll be talking to

:00:55.:01:04.

him later. Should adverts like these be banned?

:01:04.:01:10.

You tell us how much you want, how long you wanted for, we tell you how

:01:10.:01:13.

much it will cost. The Government says it wants to do something about

:01:13.:01:18.

payday loans, but does it know what? The man rumoured to want David

:01:18.:01:24.

Cameron's job tell us why big profits are brilliant. I think

:01:24.:01:28.

politicians need to celebrate when businesses, small and large, are

:01:29.:01:32.

making big profits. The bigger the profits, the more we should cheer.

:01:32.:01:36.

And we'll be serving up some fast food as we put three MPs to the

:01:36.:01:40.

burger test. All that in the next hour, and we'll

:01:40.:01:44.

even be putting MPs and burgers to the test. And with us for the whole

:01:44.:01:46.

programme today is former Home Secretary, former Education

:01:46.:01:49.

Secretary and former Work and Pensions Secretary -Labour MP David

:01:49.:01:53.

Blunkett. You could say he's a jack of all trades. Anyway, welcome to

:01:53.:01:59.

the Daily Politics. And welcome to First this morning, lets talk about

:01:59.:02:07.

Labour. Your dog, Cosby. How concerned are you about the goings

:02:07.:02:12.

on over the candidate selection process? I think the Labour Party

:02:12.:02:17.

have taken the right step by having an investigation. I hope the

:02:17.:02:21.

executive committee will deal with it decisively. It is 20 years since

:02:21.:02:27.

the late John Smith, then leader of the party, change the rules, so it

:02:27.:02:31.

was one member one vote. Previously, we had a collegiate system and the

:02:31.:02:35.

trade unions had a big chunk of the vote and the membership were pretty

:02:35.:02:41.

well squeezed out. All of that change. Now we have to make sure

:02:41.:02:46.

that when it is one member, they are a legitimate member. It wasn't

:02:46.:02:51.

correct, allegations that Unite have been buying for people to join the

:02:51.:02:57.

Labour Party? I don't know. It is not in our rules that other people

:02:57.:03:04.

can pay your fee and therefore join you up. You have to apply, be

:03:04.:03:08.

approved and pay the admittance the. That is how it should be. We have to

:03:09.:03:15.

make sure that those rules apply. Are Unite two influential and

:03:15.:03:20.

powerful in today's Labour Party? Trade unions, since the formation of

:03:21.:03:26.

the Labour Party, have been crucial to funding and broadening the input

:03:26.:03:29.

and the activity, because they represent very large numbers. When

:03:29.:03:34.

they are affiliated, members pay an affiliation fee, which they can opt

:03:34.:03:39.

out of if they want. We have to make sure their rings winces positive,

:03:39.:03:44.

not negative. Is it positive at the moment, where there are allegations

:03:45.:03:52.

of rigging entry? You have to reach them out in whatever party. We have

:03:52.:03:57.

had all sorts with the Lib Dems and Tories as well. It is not throwing

:03:57.:04:01.

stones at glasshouses. We have a bigger problem, because trade unions

:04:01.:04:06.

have amalgamated and much larger -- much larger. The influence is bound

:04:06.:04:12.

to be greater. With the trade unions, we need to say that it is in

:04:12.:04:15.

no one peers best interest to have this kind of row and the sort of

:04:15.:04:21.

allegations going on under the surface. As part of the clearing up,

:04:21.:04:26.

do you think the internal report into Falkirk, which is sitting on Ed

:04:26.:04:31.

Miliband's desk, should be published? I would. Just be as

:04:31.:04:37.

transparent as possible with a clear focus, if that is needed. There was

:04:37.:04:42.

intervention, the Scottish part of our party dealt with this

:04:42.:04:50.

decisively, as it should be. worry is that the public see Unite

:04:50.:04:55.

as backing Ed Miliband, personally, that he needs Unite because of the

:04:55.:04:58.

funding and because many people believe he was put there by them. Is

:04:58.:05:04.

that dangerous? He was not put there by Unite. The trade union

:05:04.:05:10.

movement's vote up their members was very decisively... Public

:05:11.:05:14.

perception. Perception matters, I would be daft to suggest it does

:05:14.:05:21.

not. We can't have a go at the vested interests of the Tory party

:05:21.:05:25.

if we don't clear our own house. That is a fact of life. We have done

:05:25.:05:31.

over the years, and must do now. McCluskey has called for Blairite

:05:31.:05:35.

members of the Shadow Cabinet to be sacked. How frustration --

:05:35.:05:41.

frustrating was that for you? frustrating for Ed Miliband. It is

:05:41.:05:45.

not his role to be talking about Shadow Cabinet members in that way,

:05:45.:05:52.

and we don't go -- don't want to go back to diversions of this sort. We

:05:52.:05:56.

are broad church, we should be able to welcome, engage with and have a

:05:56.:06:01.

proper dialogue with a whole range of people and we should not be

:06:01.:06:05.

afraid of ideas and policy. At the moment, we are frayed. The idea of

:06:05.:06:11.

looking to the future and being radical, it will then be the party

:06:11.:06:16.

of the graveyard, nobody wants that. Len McCluskey claiming that the

:06:16.:06:18.

Blairites, as he calls them, will lose Labour the next election

:06:18.:06:28.

because they are adopting austerity lite. They are not a proper

:06:28.:06:33.

alternative to the coalition. interesting article this week said

:06:33.:06:38.

that that misses the point altogether. The issue is people

:06:38.:06:43.

being convinced they can trust us, that we have a clear direction not

:06:43.:06:49.

purely based on whether the next billion pounds here or there makes

:06:49.:06:54.

socialism. When I was a very young councillor in Sheffield, back in the

:06:54.:06:58.

old many days, this shows how old I am, we have the most enormous

:06:58.:07:02.

arguments in the first two years about an extra penny, and old penny,

:07:02.:07:08.

on the rates, as though socialism would be brought about by increasing

:07:08.:07:12.

spending in that way. It didn't, it wasn't, it can't be. We need ideas

:07:12.:07:16.

that don't cost a lot, that are radical. Perspectives on the Laois

:07:16.:07:24.

and ship during government -- on the relationships between government and

:07:24.:07:30.

the people. And local government, which you will deal with in a

:07:30.:07:33.

moment, has a role not just as an institution but in mobilising people

:07:33.:07:43.
:07:43.:07:44.

to delivering services. If you look at the polls, which are narrowing

:07:44.:07:49.

despite the difficulties with the economy, a five point lead, you

:07:49.:07:54.

could argue, is negligible at this stage in a Parliamentary term. Whose

:07:54.:08:01.

fault is that? 5% to 10%, depending on which Sunday newspaper poll you

:08:01.:08:08.

read. But it had been consistently around 10%, it is now sliding.

:08:08.:08:13.

you have a big presentation, as the government did on the Spending

:08:13.:08:19.

Review, and the chief secretary saying how much they would spend...

:08:19.:08:25.

Much of it was about cuts. Here is the contradiction. People don't like

:08:25.:08:32.

the idea of not being able to afford social care or decent health.

:08:32.:08:35.

Labour not doing better? People quite like the idea of government

:08:35.:08:40.

cuts. We have to have a perspective which actually deals with that

:08:40.:08:44.

elephant trap, that is what it is. The government is constantly setting

:08:44.:08:48.

traps for us. We have to avoid stepping into them whilst remaining

:08:48.:08:53.

focused entirely on a radical perspective for the future. My view

:08:53.:08:59.

is we need to reach out to people and say, we will not pretend that

:08:59.:09:04.

this will do everything for you we will help you, alongside you, doing

:09:04.:09:08.

things in your life. The fair chance, Ed Miliband talked about

:09:09.:09:13.

that last year. Giving people the ability to earn a decent league and

:09:13.:09:18.

look after family and the wider community. Let's move on to a policy

:09:18.:09:21.

area which you will know plenty about in your role as the former

:09:22.:09:26.

Home Secretary, stop and search powers. Theresa May says they should

:09:26.:09:31.

be used more carefully, and the figures that only one in ten only

:09:31.:09:41.
:09:41.:09:44.

lead to an and arrest. They have reduced stop and search, because it

:09:44.:09:50.

needs to be intelligence led and focused. It had got out of hand.

:09:50.:09:57.

They had already confined it. You need stop and search. Do you

:09:57.:10:00.

remember -- Drummer Lee Rigby was killed by people carrying weapons,

:10:00.:10:05.

if they'd been stopped and searched it would not have led to his death.

:10:05.:10:08.

Those are the real dilemmas that a Home Secretary has to deal with when

:10:08.:10:15.

making a gesture about Civil Liberties. If there had been better

:10:15.:10:19.

intelligence, or perhaps the intelligence had been acted on, that

:10:19.:10:24.

might have prevented the tragedy as well? Exactly, which is why

:10:24.:10:28.

intelligence led, well thought through and properly implemented

:10:28.:10:32.

with the support of local communities, because without that

:10:32.:10:37.

the police are left exposed. Thank you. Something slightly different.

:10:37.:10:40.

Now it's time for our daily quiz. The question for today is which

:10:40.:10:43.

world leader, alleged to be a dictator, said yesterday that he'd

:10:43.:10:46.

vote for David Cameron if he could? Was it Kim Jong-un of North Korea,

:10:46.:10:48.

Nursultan Nazarbayev from Kazakhstan, Teodoro Obiang Nguema

:10:48.:10:50.

Mbasogo from Equatorial Guinea, or Gurbanguly Berdimuhamedow of

:10:50.:11:00.
:11:00.:11:15.

Turkmenistan? I can't quite pronounce that last one! I can spell

:11:15.:11:19.

it because it is written, I cannot pronounce it! At the end of the

:11:19.:11:21.

show, David will give us the correct answer.

:11:21.:11:23.

Now, council leaders from across England are gathering in Manchester

:11:23.:11:25.

today for Local Government Association conference, the biggest

:11:25.:11:29.

event on the local government calendar. Council bosses meet

:11:29.:11:32.

following the 10% cut to local government funding announced in last

:11:32.:11:38.

week's Spending Review. This cut comes on top of the 33% real terms

:11:38.:11:41.

reduction in council funding which is being made from 2011/12 to

:11:41.:11:49.

2014/15. The LGA believes the current funding model is inefficient

:11:49.:11:54.

and unsustainable. They want the Government to create a single

:11:54.:11:57.

England Office by merging six government departments - Communities

:11:57.:11:59.

and Local Government, Transport, Environment, Energy, Culture, Media

:11:59.:12:09.
:12:09.:12:10.

and Sport, and relevant parts of the Home Office. The LGA say this would

:12:10.:12:15.

give English local authorities better representation in government.

:12:15.:12:18.

They also want to scrap the Barnett formula, which calculates public

:12:18.:12:20.

spending for Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, as they say the

:12:20.:12:23.

three nations have endured proportionally less severe cuts in

:12:23.:12:31.

public spending than England. Well, joining me from Salford is the chair

:12:31.:12:41.

of the LGA, Sir Merrick Cockell. Welcome to the programme. Why do you

:12:41.:12:44.

say the current funding model is unsustainable? Just because it is

:12:44.:12:51.

being cut? You have clearly said there will be less money, tempers

:12:51.:12:55.

sensing a year cut. We just can't carry like that, the idea that we

:12:55.:13:00.

could become more efficient and share services to deal with the

:13:00.:13:04.

problem is not realistic. We have to look at how public services

:13:04.:13:09.

overall, those provided not only by local government and national

:13:09.:13:13.

government and its agencies, we need to look at the whole picture and

:13:13.:13:17.

find a way of spending that money more effectively and also looking at

:13:17.:13:22.

the democracy, reconnecting people to the democratic process at a local

:13:22.:13:26.

level. People vote for MPs but they vote for local government

:13:26.:13:32.

councillors. We think that more trust is shown in local government.

:13:32.:13:38.

We have a rising satisfaction rate which the Chancellor referred to

:13:38.:13:43.

last week, even though we are making substantial savings and some cuts.

:13:43.:13:48.

But you have said yourself the money needs to be spent more effectively,

:13:49.:13:53.

so not necessarily more money, just spent more wisely, which suggests

:13:53.:13:57.

there is still waste, or it is being used for purposes which are no

:13:57.:14:02.

longer relevant? But the waste is not simply in the local government

:14:02.:14:08.

area. We are the most efficient bit of public services, we are told that

:14:08.:14:12.

endlessly by government. A lot of it is, frankly, badly spent by

:14:12.:14:17.

Whitehall, by the system, by having a multitude of different competing

:14:17.:14:22.

forces. We need to focus the money on areas and spend it wisely.

:14:22.:14:27.

Government letting go, trusting areas to make the right decisions,

:14:27.:14:32.

including taxation, the level of council tax and all those areas, and

:14:32.:14:35.

being held accountable and responsible at a local level, we

:14:35.:14:41.

think this is the way ahead. You draw more value from public money.

:14:41.:14:45.

Rather than thinking one part can cut another and it will have no

:14:45.:14:49.

effect. Is this the backlash, pointing the figure at central

:14:49.:14:52.

government and say they are wasting money that you could spend better?

:14:52.:14:59.

For instance, would you like them to say you can put council tax up?

:14:59.:15:04.

are talking about overall public services in a particular area, which

:15:04.:15:07.

is most public services, universal services, that people experience day

:15:08.:15:12.

in, day out. We have people who could be held accountable for the

:15:12.:15:19.

range of local public services. We are saying, trust them. The

:15:19.:15:23.

government -- we are making the savings we have been required to do,

:15:23.:15:27.

we have balanced budgets and making savings. There is a way through

:15:27.:15:30.

this. We have worked with the government on its community budgets.

:15:30.:15:36.

What happened last week will may have been missed by many, it was a

:15:36.:15:41.

game changer. We have had cooperation with the Department of

:15:41.:15:44.

Health in looking at adult care and health costs and saying, actually,

:15:44.:15:49.

by joining that up, we can save money. Frankly, we look after people

:15:49.:15:53.

better when they are in their homes, in early intervention, rather

:15:53.:15:56.

than letting them get into hospital, which costs a lot and is bad for

:15:56.:16:05.

them. The Government is running local government badly? The

:16:05.:16:08.

Government shouldn't be running local government, because we are

:16:08.:16:13.

local government. It should not be for Ministers to tell us, as they

:16:13.:16:16.

have done today, that we should simply be sharing more services, and

:16:16.:16:21.

that would deal with the problem. This isn't an ask of this

:16:21.:16:25.

Government. This is putting matters for the, particularly English

:16:25.:16:30.

matters, where is England in devolution, where are the powers

:16:30.:16:34.

given to other parts of the United Kingdom. That's at the core of that.

:16:34.:16:38.

We should trust local areas. David, what's your reaction, do you agree

:16:38.:16:42.

it is time now for central Government to let go? They always

:16:42.:16:48.

say they are going to but they never do. We all say it in theory but then

:16:49.:16:54.

get central ieftzed mad when we are in. Why does that happen?There must

:16:54.:16:59.

be a Sod's law somewhere that instead of recognising that we've

:16:59.:17:04.

got enough on our plates from the centre, we want to interfere. The

:17:04.:17:10.

classic is, as just described, and incidentally I agree with a great

:17:10.:17:16.

deal of what's been said from a Conservative councillor, is that we

:17:16.:17:22.

say let's have a cap on the local council tax. Now, there is no

:17:22.:17:25.

logical reason for that. It doesn't affect the economy. It should be

:17:25.:17:32.

down to local people, but we think we are able to make a big gesture -

:17:32.:17:38.

this Government thinks it is able to make a business gesture, and frozen

:17:38.:17:41.

the council tax, but it will make it even more difficult for local

:17:41.:17:45.

government to balance the books. We encourage privatisation, both

:17:46.:17:49.

parties have encouraged local government to outsource. What's

:17:49.:17:52.

happened now of course is those contracts are bound in for years and

:17:52.:17:56.

years and the cuts that are being made, and they are absolutely eye

:17:56.:17:59.

watering have to take place on that bit of local government that's still

:17:59.:18:03.

left in local hands. You were the leader of a council weren't you?

:18:03.:18:09.

Yes, for seven years, and it wasn't as bad as it is now. It is

:18:09.:18:13.

interesting for your viewers to know this is much, much worse for local

:18:13.:18:16.

people and local services and those trying to run local government than

:18:16.:18:21.

it was in the 1980s. We have the local government Minister on

:18:21.:18:24.

regularly saying more can be cut and more efficiencies made. One of the

:18:24.:18:29.

suggestions you've made, Sir Merrick Cockell, is abolishing six

:18:29.:18:31.

Government departments to improve representation in Government. How

:18:31.:18:35.

would that work? It is a logical consequence of the English question

:18:35.:18:39.

I was talking about. If England is going to have a solution to the

:18:39.:18:42.

powers that have been given to Scotland, Wales and Northern

:18:42.:18:47.

Ireland, then I think, we think, and this is cross-party, across the

:18:47.:18:50.

local government sector, that that is trusting areas, not single

:18:50.:18:55.

councils but areas working together. If Government backs that, and says

:18:55.:19:01.

we are going to pass far more decision taking to a local level and

:19:01.:19:06.

let those be accountable, you don't need the enormous structure of

:19:06.:19:10.

different departments, all with permanent secretaries and budgets

:19:10.:19:14.

being signed off from Whitehall to our neighbours in those

:19:14.:19:21.

single-absolutely o budgets. -- in those single-silo budgets. To get

:19:21.:19:25.

rid of six Government departments, including parts of the Home Office,

:19:25.:19:31.

to serve what Sir Merrick Cockell is saying? If they carry on demolishing

:19:31.:19:35.

the Civil Service and the role of government in general we might just

:19:35.:19:41.

get there by attrition. I can't envisage the Home Office being

:19:41.:19:44.

lumped together with Communities and Local Government or culture, media

:19:44.:19:48.

and support. I would put the Home Office back with the Department of

:19:48.:19:52.

Justice, which is where it was when I was Home Secretary. I would look

:19:52.:19:58.

to human resource, accountancy and policy and research being

:19:58.:20:03.

amalgamated between deficits. -- between departments. The Local

:20:03.:20:07.

Government Association have hit on a really important debate here.

:20:07.:20:11.

Practise what you preach. They are preaching that local government

:20:11.:20:15.

should not only link up inside the local authority but between local

:20:15.:20:19.

authorities I think a bit of example from central Government wouldn't be

:20:19.:20:26.

amiss. Sir Merrick Cockell, if you think back to Jen John Prescott ran

:20:26.:20:28.

that super-department, Secretary of State for the environment, transport

:20:28.:20:33.

and the regions, it was that a golden era for success in local

:20:33.:20:38.

government? No, it wasn't. I'm not suggesting that we have a super

:20:38.:20:41.

Government department. I'm suggesting that power is transferred

:20:41.:20:44.

from the centre to a variety of local levels and from the local

:20:44.:20:51.

level down to people. If you do that, you don't need that great

:20:51.:20:56.

rigmarole created in a Victorian era, and it is already bust.

:20:56.:21:01.

anyone listening to your proposal s? Proposals? Has given Eric Pickles

:21:01.:21:10.

give an response? These are carefully thought through

:21:10.:21:15.

cross-party policies. But has they? He is here tomorrow. I am looking

:21:15.:21:21.

forward to having a round table discussion. Give him a meagre salad

:21:21.:21:27.

for his lunch. I'm about too have an Eccles cake. Enjoy the conference,

:21:27.:21:32.

Sir Merrick Cockell, thank you. Payday lending was the subject of a

:21:32.:21:36.

summit led by Consumer Minister Jo Swinson yesterday. Among other

:21:36.:21:38.

suggestions for regulating the �2 billion industry some have advocated

:21:38.:21:40.

curbing advertising for these companies. Adverts possibly like

:21:40.:21:49.

this one: Explain the Wonga.com sliders. That's how we, you tell us

:21:49.:21:53.

how much you want, how much you want it for and we tell you how much it

:21:53.:22:00.

is going to covments You think it is important to give people control.

:22:00.:22:10.
:22:10.:22:10.

See, it is now her turn on the music player. Turn it off! Wonga.com,

:22:10.:22:15.

straight-talking money. See, adverts on the programme too. With me to

:22:16.:22:18.

discuss this are Labour MP Stella Creasy and payday lender Julio

:22:18.:22:23.

Martino in Newcastle. Welcome to both of you. Is limiting the

:22:23.:22:28.

advertising on pay day lending enough? No. And frankly it is a

:22:28.:22:31.

little bit ridiculous, because it is like saying as long as these

:22:31.:22:34.

companies haven't discovered the internet or mobile phone

:22:34.:22:39.

advertising, and anybody watching this programme using iPlayer will

:22:39.:22:43.

tell you these adverts are everywhere. We need to cap the cost

:22:43.:22:50.

of credit. It stops these loans being so tox nick the first place.

:22:50.:22:55.

would be in favour of capping the cost of credit. I would like to know

:22:55.:23:00.

where that limit would be. I suspect my business would fall much below

:23:00.:23:05.

the barrier, maybe it wouldn't, but it is a broad idea. I'm not against

:23:05.:23:15.
:23:15.:23:19.

it. What's your APR?296%. APR is a complicated formula. However, that

:23:20.:23:24.

is I think lower than most other companies in the country. You say

:23:24.:23:31.

it's a complicated formula but some people will make a sharp intake of

:23:31.:23:38.

breath. I want to borrow �90. How much time do I have to pay that back

:23:38.:23:47.

and when does the 296% kick in? borrow �90 and you pay me back

:23:47.:23:52.

�10020 days later. In an annual percentage rate that's around 130%.

:23:52.:23:58.

APR is a calculation designed to calculate mortgages, very long term

:23:58.:24:03.

loans. Over a year, the percentage rate would work out as around

:24:03.:24:10.

something like 130%. But over 28 days you pay back �10 if you borrow

:24:10.:24:17.

�90. Put like, that Stella Creasy, you are shaking your head, does it

:24:17.:24:21.

perform a legitimate function, particularly for people who cannot

:24:21.:24:27.

go to their high street bank and have a cash flow problem and need to

:24:27.:24:33.

plug that gap? Not everybody who borrows from pay day lenders gets

:24:33.:24:36.

into financial difficulties but enough of them do that there is a

:24:36.:24:44.

problem. Julio's model only works when people pay back on time. A

:24:44.:24:47.

third of people have to keep rolling over, because they can't afford to

:24:47.:24:52.

pay it back at the end of the month. Most other countries have capped. In

:24:52.:24:58.

Japan the cap is 15%. They have a pay day lending industry, so

:24:58.:25:02.

companies still make money. Ethey have lower levels of illegal lending

:25:02.:25:06.

and they have lower levels of personal debt. It's a win-win for

:25:06.:25:11.

everyone. Is that 15% APR?That's set in partnership with the industry

:25:11.:25:20.

and consumer groups. I worked out today that on �90, 20% APR, after 20

:25:20.:25:28.

days someone will pay me 1. 26 psmtdsly lend �90, and at 20% my

:25:28.:25:35.

profit would be 1. . 26. I promised you I worked that out. If I'm wrong

:25:35.:25:38.

I'm perfectly happy to admit I'm wrong, but I don't think I can make

:25:38.:25:42.

my loan any cheaper, and I promise you this, without actually not

:25:43.:25:47.

making enough of a profit. Is that really the case that you wouldn't

:25:47.:25:51.

make enough profit? You said you agree with a cap. Where would you

:25:51.:25:57.

have that cap set? I couldn't possibly suggest. I think and I'm

:25:57.:26:02.

willing to be corrected, I'm among the cheapest of pay day lend ers in

:26:02.:26:09.

the country. I would ask that... Wonga's current APR is around

:26:09.:26:16.

5,000%. Between 296 and 5,000%, although it's a bad calculation

:26:16.:26:22.

there is a massive gulf. For example if you borrowed the same terms with

:26:22.:26:31.

one of these bigger pay day lenders would would be paying back �1229

:26:31.:26:40.

after -- paying back �129. I am willing to sit down and agree a cap.

:26:40.:26:44.

The banks would have to be involved presumably. This is one of the

:26:44.:26:48.

problems, because yesterday the Government refused to talk even

:26:48.:26:52.

about capping, even though it works in most other countries, there

:26:52.:26:56.

wasn't anybody else in the room apart from Martin Lewis who is able

:26:56.:27:01.

to raise the issue. I'm pleased to hear a pay day lender saying that

:27:01.:27:06.

capping is a good idea. That cap in Japan was set in partnership with

:27:06.:27:09.

the industry and consumers based on the Japanese credit market. What's

:27:10.:27:13.

frustrating to me is we know this is what makes the most difference.

:27:13.:27:16.

There are now 5 million people borrowing in this way and it is

:27:16.:27:19.

going to get worse in the next couple of months. Why the Government

:27:19.:27:24.

can't even talk about such an effective solution sin excusable

:27:24.:27:29.

when people are suffering. Let's talk about your clients. Who are the

:27:29.:27:33.

sort of people that come to you? They are people that can't can get

:27:33.:27:39.

credit cards, on the whole. People that can't getover drafts. Maybe

:27:39.:27:42.

they are students that made a mistake 15 years ago or defaulted on

:27:42.:27:47.

a mobile phone bill. They can't get credit anywhere else. Because I run

:27:47.:27:52.

a personal service, I meet all my customers face to face. I know all

:27:52.:27:57.

of them by name. Do you turn any of them down because they are too

:27:57.:28:00.

vulnerable and have no chance of paying that money back? Yes, because

:28:00.:28:07.

I can't make money. We don't lend to people on benefits. That would be

:28:07.:28:11.

crazy and wrong. If people are in work and get a tax credit, yes we

:28:11.:28:16.

will lend to them. Generally if someone is earning less than �1,000

:28:16.:28:22.

a month we will not lend. We want 60 days of bank statements. We turn

:28:22.:28:28.

away either on the phone, we don't do loans over the phones, people who

:28:28.:28:33.

can't pay us back. Put like that... This is a different payday loan

:28:33.:28:40.

system to the ones we are talking about. This gentleman wouldn't be on

:28:40.:28:46.

actually if he hadn't got a good defence of what he was trying to do.

:28:46.:28:49.

Let's not beat about the bush. Stella should have been at the

:28:49.:28:54.

meeting yesterday. A colleague of mind from Sheffield Central has a

:28:54.:29:00.

private member's bill. We nearly got this right six years ago. The most

:29:00.:29:04.

important thing is we need a cap on the cost of credit. We need that in

:29:04.:29:07.

legislation, we are going to keep campaigning for a cap on the cost of

:29:07.:29:12.

credit. When so many are struggling to not do the one thing that makes

:29:12.:29:18.

these loans affordable, Julio you are not eptive of the industry. The

:29:18.:29:25.

OFT research tells us that there are widespread malpractices. Poor

:29:25.:29:28.

affordability tests, the marketing techniques, pushing people to

:29:28.:29:34.

borrow. One company doesn't make the entire industry acceptable.

:29:34.:29:40.

banks are trying to take my account away. In two years I have had to

:29:40.:29:45.

change my account twice. HSBC will fund rams dens and people like that

:29:45.:29:53.

but not give me a bank account. I won't around in a bit. Good luck.

:29:53.:29:59.

We nearly cracked it six years ago, we then had the global meltdown. We

:29:59.:30:03.

nearly got a scheme where you would get 25% credit backed by the

:30:03.:30:07.

Government. If that had gone through it would've been an entirely

:30:07.:30:14.

different ball game. Thank you. Big business gets a pretty press a

:30:14.:30:17.

lot of the time - think of recent stories about corporate tax

:30:17.:30:20.

avoidance. But should we really complain when companies make big

:30:20.:30:22.

profits? One MP, Adam Afriyie, says that we should celebrate when firms

:30:22.:30:25.

do well, and that we should be teaching business skills in schools

:30:25.:30:35.
:30:35.:30:38.

as the best way to improve social mobility. Here's why.

:30:38.:30:44.

This is my area. I guess you'd call it my patch. This is Pekan in

:30:44.:30:54.
:30:54.:30:54.

south-east London, where I grew up. -- this is Peckham. I went to school

:30:54.:31:00.

here. I had a good start in life, I got an education. By trial and error

:31:00.:31:05.

and, yes, I made some mistakes, I then made my way into business. I

:31:05.:31:10.

want every young person to recognise their business skills early. It is a

:31:10.:31:14.

great chance to take control of your life and determine your own

:31:14.:31:18.

direction and, more than that, it is a great opportunity for social

:31:18.:31:22.

mobility, to improve your chances in life.

:31:22.:31:28.

Geographically, Peckham is not that far from the City of London. And nor

:31:28.:31:34.

should it be in terms of opportunity for our young people. They should be

:31:34.:31:39.

inspired and passionate about doing business in the UK, whether that be

:31:39.:31:44.

in manufacturing, retail, banking or technology. We need them to grow

:31:44.:31:48.

successful and profitable British businesses. Why? Because enterprise

:31:48.:31:56.

and competition are the only way we will get Britain back on its feet.

:31:56.:32:01.

We love it when small businesses like this are doing well, but I

:32:01.:32:05.

think politicians need to celebrate one businesses, small and large, are

:32:05.:32:10.

making big profits. The bigger the profits, the more we should cheer.

:32:10.:32:14.

It is creating jobs, putting money in people 's pockets and creating a

:32:14.:32:23.

greater level of social mobility for the next generation.

:32:23.:32:28.

I'm on the side of business, because I come from a tough background in

:32:28.:32:33.

Peckham. I made the journey from social housing whilst starting my

:32:33.:32:37.

business and working hard. I know that business is a force for good.

:32:37.:32:43.

Now I am in Westminster and for the sake of today's disadvantaged kids,

:32:43.:32:46.

I want everyone else to celebrate what business can bring to the

:32:46.:32:55.

country. That was an amazing shot at the end of that piece. Adam Afriyie

:32:55.:32:59.

a is here now. Should education really be about learning about

:32:59.:33:05.

business skills? I don't think the core curriculum, no, that

:33:05.:33:09.

organisations like Young Enterprise and allow children to set up a

:33:09.:33:13.

business and workout about whether they are chewed to being an

:33:13.:33:16.

entrepreneur leading it, or somebody who supports it as an accountant or

:33:16.:33:21.

product designer. One of the great ways you can control your life is if

:33:21.:33:25.

you start a business. You can make your own way in life. If you do

:33:25.:33:30.

well, profits are made, you decorate your house and employ people, you

:33:30.:33:35.

invest more in that business. Governments do not bring economic

:33:35.:33:41.

growth, businesses do. widespread is Young enterprise in

:33:41.:33:45.

schools. Should it be brought in, particularly, perhaps, for

:33:45.:33:50.

A-levels, that people should have that experience in school? I think

:33:50.:33:55.

everyone must recognise the importance that business can bring.

:33:55.:34:00.

Young Enterprise is a charitable organisation spread across the

:34:00.:34:05.

country, and the wider they can promote, the better. You say the

:34:05.:34:09.

bigger the profits, the more we should cheer... I knew that would

:34:09.:34:15.

make you cringe! But I just think that people will think about the

:34:16.:34:19.

banking crisis, we allow these institutions to make more and more

:34:19.:34:24.

profits, and look what happened. need a competitive market, lots of

:34:24.:34:34.
:34:34.:34:35.

businesses competing in order to make a profit. Why can't it be just

:34:35.:34:38.

making some money and being a success? Because the bigger the

:34:38.:34:45.

profits, the more tax goes to the Exchequer, the more money is

:34:45.:34:49.

reinvested to create more jobs and the greater levels of social

:34:49.:34:54.

mobility. If you are business with a very busy job market, you cannot

:34:54.:34:57.

discriminate on terms of background or heritage, you have to take the

:34:57.:35:05.

best person. The exact opposite, David Blunkett, that Ed Miliband has

:35:05.:35:10.

been saying when talking about predators and irresponsible

:35:10.:35:15.

capitalism? You would go out of business if you don't make a profit.

:35:15.:35:18.

It is the small businesses that seem to be paying the tax, they pay

:35:18.:35:24.

corporation tax, and Amazon and now, we discover, Apple and all these

:35:24.:35:31.

others do not. You'd be surprised about this and add a scale, but Adam

:35:31.:35:35.

and Gordon Brown have a lot in common. Gordon Brown was really in

:35:35.:35:40.

the drastic about getting enterprise into the curriculum -- you may be

:35:40.:35:45.

surprised, and Adam might scowl. When they give youngsters �10 and

:35:45.:35:50.

say, see what you can make on that, I think it is really interesting.

:35:50.:36:00.
:36:00.:36:07.

Big, big, big profits depend on who you are making a profit from.

:36:07.:36:13.

Doesn't that limit the profit? to manageable proportions. The

:36:13.:36:17.

problem with using the tax system is that businesses go on strike. I

:36:17.:36:22.

wrote a paper about this at University God knows how long ago.

:36:22.:36:28.

The politicians need to say that if there are tax loopholes and people

:36:28.:36:33.

are not paying the right amount of tax legally, it is for politicians

:36:33.:36:43.
:36:43.:36:45.

and governments to put that right? We should be speaking on behalf of

:36:45.:36:48.

working and acting on behalf of the public.

:36:48.:36:52.

Incidentally, money management and dealing with these matters has been

:36:52.:36:59.

agreed as part of the new citizenship curriculum. We now need

:36:59.:37:02.

to encourage economic sand enterprise. But perhaps, as Adam

:37:02.:37:08.

says, politicians have not cheered enough about big business and big

:37:08.:37:17.

profits? We got into an era where my only the ship were criticised very

:37:17.:37:21.

heavily, were they not, as Tony Blair, Peter Mandelson and the like

:37:21.:37:27.

would say. Adam has done very well from his background. People do well

:37:27.:37:32.

in all sorts of other ways than making a big profit, but there is

:37:33.:37:37.

nothing wrong with a profit, if it has been made ethically and we get

:37:37.:37:43.

our hands on a bit of it. profits, big organisations. Coming

:37:43.:37:47.

back to the financial crisis, that was one of the biggest problems,

:37:47.:37:53.

they were too big to fail. The Professor of business and risk that

:37:53.:37:57.

we had the pleasure of meeting talked about big corporations being

:37:57.:38:03.

inherently unstable, that small is beautiful. There is something in

:38:03.:38:06.

that, but you can have big businesses in competition with each

:38:06.:38:11.

other. The failure of the banking system was systemic where there was

:38:11.:38:19.

not enough competition in the market. I am not a fan of bullying

:38:19.:38:24.

or overpowering. There is nothing worse than a private monopoly. The

:38:24.:38:27.

challenge is not how big a businesses, but whether the market

:38:27.:38:33.

is in competition and innovation is taking place. The point I wanted to

:38:33.:38:37.

make is that this is not just about economic growth or tax to the

:38:37.:38:41.

Exchequer, it is about social mobility. As people get into

:38:41.:38:44.

business they can make their way through the social strata, as well

:38:44.:38:50.

as economic. You think that is more successful? What about the idea of

:38:50.:38:56.

companies running schools for profit? This has just come up. I am

:38:56.:39:01.

not sure if it is a policy commitment at the moment. If it

:39:01.:39:05.

would bring about better school standards, of course it is a good

:39:05.:39:10.

idea, but I think the Jewry is out at the moment. Berry is no evidence

:39:10.:39:20.
:39:20.:39:20.

that it does. -- there is no evidence that it does. We seem to

:39:20.:39:24.

think that everything in Sweden works really well and everything

:39:25.:39:31.

else works badly, it is bunkum. I was education secretary for four

:39:31.:39:39.

years. We can reform and modernise without people creaming off. When is

:39:39.:39:44.

profit reinvestment when you just call it a surplus? They're all sorts

:39:45.:39:51.

of ways of cutting the cake, than being ideological. -- there are all

:39:51.:39:59.

sorts of ways. What would you do if you offered a pay rise? Book a

:39:59.:40:05.

holiday, or say this? MPs are public servants paid by taxpayers, and I

:40:06.:40:10.

think it would be impossible to explain to the public why MPs should

:40:10.:40:16.

be treated at this time so very differently to their constituents.

:40:16.:40:21.

Everybody remembers the expenses scandal, an independent body was set

:40:21.:40:26.

up so that MPs had nothing to do with it at all. I think that the

:40:26.:40:31.

cost of politics in this country is too high. When we are cutting public

:40:31.:40:34.

sector pay, when the private sector is coming under huge pressure, this

:40:34.:40:42.

is barking mad. If ever I needed to be persuaded that IPSA was out of

:40:42.:40:47.

touch, it would be now. I think everybody will understand the wider

:40:47.:40:53.

context and the attitude of the people, which I think will be very

:40:54.:40:58.

hostile if the political class puts its own interest first.

:40:58.:41:05.

Joining us to discuss the public reaction to a proposed �10,000 pay

:41:05.:41:12.

rise is the pollster, Andrew Hawkins, from ComRos. Should MPs get

:41:12.:41:20.

�10,000 more? Not immediately. I am in a better position than many,

:41:20.:41:26.

because I write and so on. The common-sense view, in my opinion,

:41:26.:41:35.

would be to agree that for IPSA to put forward their proposal... I was

:41:35.:41:43.

just about to say... Sorry.And say, but, we can't possibly implemented

:41:43.:41:51.

now or in 2015, because there is a public sector pay cap. But why not

:41:51.:41:57.

consider in 2016, 2017, this could be phased-in? People can despise

:41:57.:42:01.

us, they can believe we don't do a days work, but in comparison with

:42:01.:42:07.

the head of a school with 13 weeks holiday or, for that matter, those

:42:07.:42:16.

working in the civil service, it is an absolute nonsense. Andrew, should

:42:16.:42:21.

they be paid more now? It does not take Mystic Meg to seek that this

:42:21.:42:27.

will be an explosive issue over the next few weeks. We did a big study

:42:27.:42:31.

for IPSA in the middle of last year, asking the public what they thought

:42:31.:42:35.

about how much MPs were paid. The range of knowledge about what MPs

:42:35.:42:43.

are paid is colossal, ranging from under �20,000 to more than

:42:43.:42:50.

�150,000. The averages �88,000, that is what people think they are paid.

:42:50.:42:55.

Backbenchers are paid �66,000. People think they should be paid

:42:55.:43:01.

�55,000. IPSA is proposing that within the region of expectation for

:43:01.:43:06.

a lot of people, the problem is that the expenses scandal still looms

:43:06.:43:13.

very large and public consciousness. I am not here to defend whether MPs

:43:13.:43:18.

should get a pay rise, but for years there has never been a good time to

:43:18.:43:23.

pay MPs more, and some might have argued that was the reason, in part,

:43:23.:43:29.

that the expenses scandal came about. It needs tackling. But at a

:43:29.:43:34.

time when we are meant to be in this together, is this the right moment?

:43:34.:43:39.

Maybe there are better times. the job of an MPB compared to a

:43:39.:43:44.

headteacher, a police constable, somebody in the civil service? Is

:43:44.:43:49.

that the range you would put the job of an MP together? That is what the

:43:49.:43:54.

public expect the comparison to be. When you line up MPs alongside some

:43:54.:44:00.

mother public sector workers, the pay is broadly comparable. I am not

:44:00.:44:06.

here to defend the pay levels of MPs, but when you look at their

:44:06.:44:13.

overall lifestyle, you have to ask whether the pay is commensurate with

:44:13.:44:16.

the hassle of the job, the job insecurity. It is a tough, tough

:44:16.:44:22.

job. The other question is whether money motivates the sort of people

:44:22.:44:27.

who go into politics. Does money motivates, or will it be a

:44:27.:44:30.

disincentive in the next five or ten years if the paid stays broadly the

:44:30.:44:39.

same? A third of those who came in in 2010 were earning �30,000 more

:44:39.:44:45.

than the current backbencher's salary. It's never was an incentive

:44:45.:44:50.

all those years ago when I entered. We need to reward people sensibly,

:44:50.:44:54.

demand a great deal of them, expect them to be ethical and then hold

:44:54.:45:00.

them to account. If you have been a Cabinet minister and you drop back

:45:00.:45:05.

to a backbencher's salary, we should not expect you to leave Parliament.

:45:05.:45:08.

You should be able to be there, bringing some experience and

:45:08.:45:12.

knowledge and, hopefully, learning some of the lessons you have learned

:45:12.:45:16.

rather than getting out. At the moment, the system almost says, get

:45:16.:45:23.

out. Part of the challenge is there's been a call for MPs to do

:45:23.:45:26.

fewer outside jobs as well. If we are consistent in our approach to

:45:26.:45:31.

this, we ought to be replacing the income we don't want them to have

:45:31.:45:34.

from outside interests by paying them properly, but that is clearly

:45:34.:45:38.

going to come with a high political price. Maybe the answer is to ease

:45:38.:45:42.

off on the restrictions on outside earnings and maybe that would ease

:45:42.:45:47.

the pressure to put pay up. Would you prefer that or would it be

:45:47.:45:54.

better to pay them 9 90,000 and say no outside interest interests

:45:54.:45:58.

fine. For young people coming in, they can't do the outside stuff.

:45:58.:46:03.

It's the old couragers who've the experience and the added value. I

:46:03.:46:09.

would in favour of, in due course, paying a decent rate for the job.

:46:09.:46:13.

Don't poke a stick into a tiger's cage. That's what's happened at the

:46:13.:46:18.

moment, because we are Prime Minister in hysteria. In 2009 we

:46:18.:46:23.

were and we are running around like headless chickens all again. We love

:46:23.:46:28.

that. Thank you very much. In last week's Spending Review,

:46:28.:46:30.

George Osborne announced a series of changes to welfare rules. Claimants

:46:31.:46:34.

who can't speak English will have to attend classes or see their benefits

:46:34.:46:36.

cut. Pensioners living in warm countries will lose their winter

:46:36.:46:40.

fuel payments. And then there was this on jobseeker's allowance.

:46:40.:46:46.

we are going to introduce a new seven-day wait before people can

:46:46.:46:50.

claim their benefits. Those first few days should be spent look for

:46:50.:46:55.

work, not looking to sign on. After George Osborne's statement, Ed

:46:55.:46:58.

Balls, the Shadow Chancellor, was asked by Andrew what Labour would do

:46:58.:47:04.

about the proposal. Here's what he had to say. We need to look at the

:47:04.:47:09.

detail obviously. On the welfare things, I think English language for

:47:09.:47:13.

incoming migrants definitely. I think for the Sendai, we have it

:47:13.:47:17.

three days at the moment. Seven-day, is it going to be a blank cheque for

:47:17.:47:25.

Wonga? Let's look at the detail. If it works and saves money, fine.

:47:25.:47:27.

This somewhat supportive stance of Labour's has led to heated

:47:27.:47:29.

discussion on Twitter. The Independent's Owen Jones sent a

:47:29.:47:32.

message out on the twittersphere: "Ed Balls refusing to condemn the

:47:32.:47:35.

Tories imposing a further wait on claiming benefits a policy that

:47:35.:47:37.

benefits only loans sharks and food banks." Prompting Labour's Simon

:47:37.:47:40.

Danczuk to respond: "No, it will benefit tax payers as well." "Good

:47:40.:47:45.

grief," was Owen's retort. Simon Danczuk felt the wrath of Twitter

:47:45.:47:49.

types afterwards, so we thought the best course of action was to get

:47:49.:47:52.

them in a room to thrash it out. Joining me now are Owen Jones and

:47:52.:48:01.

Simon Danczuk. Welcome to you both. If Ed Balls has said the measures

:48:02.:48:06.

will save money, or if it is proven it will save money, he is

:48:06.:48:10.

supportive, what's wrong with that? Well, it is a tiny fraction that

:48:10.:48:15.

will save the the. The average wait for people waiting for benefits is

:48:15.:48:19.

already over three weeks. These are people who pay in all their lives -

:48:19.:48:24.

binmen, nurses, teachers, who lose their jobs and get no benefits

:48:24.:48:28.

whatsoever. As a civilised society I would hope we would have a situation

:48:28.:48:33.

where when people lose their jobs they get those benefits. Otherwise

:48:33.:48:38.

500,000 people are already dependent on food banks in the seventh richest

:48:38.:48:41.

country on earth. Charities say that's because of the delays to

:48:41.:48:46.

benefit payments. And it will benefit legal loan sharks, which 1

:48:46.:48:51.

million families now depend on. The idea of the Labour Party not

:48:51.:48:55.

sticking up for people thrown out of work and have scrabbling around to

:48:55.:48:59.

support their families without support from the state is grotesque.

:48:59.:49:04.

There is no doubt that welfare has limitations, hate to be limitation

:49:04.:49:09.

as. We have to build self reliance among people. That's important.

:49:09.:49:13.

What's also important is to say we are where we are, because this is

:49:13.:49:16.

what the Government's doing. We are coming to 2015 and if we have a

:49:16.:49:20.

Labour Government this policy will be many place. What Owen does is

:49:20.:49:23.

speak about the benefits of being on benefits. What I want to do is speak

:49:23.:49:28.

about the benefits of getting people into work. That has what the Labour

:49:29.:49:31.

Party has to do. It is what the Labour Party is about. It's the

:49:31.:49:36.

party of work. It is about building self reline, getting people into

:49:36.:49:42.

employment. The Tories have failed miserably to turn the economy around

:49:42.:49:47.

over the last three years. Labour will change that. It is about

:49:47.:49:53.

providing a jobs guarantee to get people into employment. Simon as

:49:53.:50:03.
:50:03.:50:05.

ever caricature caricatures me. Housing benefit is now up to �23

:50:05.:50:11.

billion, subsidising landlords charging rip-off rents, because

:50:11.:50:15.

previous Government, Labour included... I readily accept the

:50:15.:50:19.

housing benefit bill is out of control. There are a lot of

:50:19.:50:22.

accidental landlords, people who've properties that are in negative

:50:22.:50:26.

equity and they are renting them out. You can't just bring everybody

:50:26.:50:30.

together. You have an idealistic view of the world I don't.The

:50:30.:50:35.

problem is you sound like a 1980s alternative comedian. It is

:50:35.:50:44.

hilarious in many respects but taking on the mantle of Ben Elton...

:50:44.:50:49.

You sound like a Tory MP. The grotesque sight of a Labour MP

:50:49.:50:53.

scuttling around TV studios to back Tory attacks on some of the poorest

:50:53.:50:57.

people in society. What is it supposed to be about? It is

:50:57.:51:02.

priority. And the priority has to be creating jobs for people, creating

:51:02.:51:06.

wealth and jobs. David Blunkett, who is right in this debate? I'm just

:51:06.:51:12.

glad I'm on the other side of the table! Don't worry, I will protect

:51:12.:51:18.

you Die have my dog. Deep breath. If people are entitled to redundancy

:51:18.:51:23.

payments, there isn't an immediate crises for them. If they are not,

:51:23.:51:26.

for everyone made redundant has the right to one week's additional pay

:51:26.:51:32.

on top of the pay that they had end and were entitled to? And we then

:51:32.:51:35.

change the system so that we actually go for flexibility. We are

:51:35.:51:40.

in a labour market now where people are in and out of work. They may

:51:40.:51:44.

have a job for six months, be out of work for six weeks and back in

:51:44.:51:48.

again. Do you agree with George Osborne extending it from three to

:51:48.:51:54.

seven days? I don't agree with the way he's done it. It was an elephant

:51:54.:51:59.

trap thrown up to cause the kind of row where Owen and my good friend

:51:59.:52:03.

Simon could actually fight it out in the corridor, and the world wouldn't

:52:03.:52:07.

be any better for it. Is it true to say these policies, including this

:52:07.:52:11.

one from three to seven days for benefit payments, is popular with

:52:11.:52:16.

Labour voters? There was a poll in January that showed the more people

:52:16.:52:20.

were aware of the reality of social security the less likely they were

:52:20.:52:24.

to support Government attacks. You talk to Simon about self reliance,

:52:24.:52:29.

as he puts it. Most people living in poverty in this country are in work.

:52:29.:52:35.

In a country where many people choose between heating hair home or

:52:35.:52:41.

feeding their kids, it is easy for Simon to say, he is in the top 5% of

:52:41.:52:48.

earners. This ewill never suffer as a result of these policies.

:52:48.:52:52.

Conservatives are just keen to push people into poverty. I won't take

:52:52.:52:57.

lectures from somebody like Owen who has had a privileged background, a

:52:57.:53:01.

privileged education which compares very well to the one I experienced.

:53:01.:53:08.

I went from a comprehensive school to University, I'm proud of that.

:53:08.:53:12.

You lived in one of the poshest parts of Stockport. No I didn't!The

:53:12.:53:16.

reality is that people like Owen have an idealistic view of the

:53:16.:53:20.

world. If his manifesto is keen and enthusiastic, stand for election and

:53:20.:53:24.

ask the electorate to vote for you. The reality is, never mind the

:53:24.:53:26.

opinion polling, because that shows a majority of people are concerned

:53:26.:53:31.

about how the welfare state is run. But the polling will show he will

:53:31.:53:36.

lose the election. Gentlemen, I have to stop it there, but the two of you

:53:36.:53:41.

can carry on outside, as well as on Twitter. Thank you.

:53:41.:53:44.

Now, before Mr Osborne announced his Spending Review last week, he

:53:44.:53:47.

released this picture of himself, hard at work and eating a burger.

:53:47.:53:50.

But his "man of the people" image took something of a battering when

:53:50.:53:53.

it was revealed that it was a "posh burger" costing �9.70. Is this a

:53:53.:53:57.

fair jibe, or don't we give a burger? We've got Giles down on

:53:57.:54:01.

College Green with three MPs. He's putting their taste buds to the test

:54:01.:54:06.

to see whether posh is best. Jo, this is the real meat of politics.

:54:06.:54:09.

We are going to do some testing the, so we've got three different types

:54:09.:54:14.

of processed meat, and some burg bankers. The MPs, sorry folks, you

:54:14.:54:17.

can turn around. The reason they are fairing the other way is because

:54:17.:54:24.

they tonight know which burger is which. I want you to rattle through

:54:24.:54:28.

this. Take the number one, take a chunks and tell us what you think.

:54:28.:54:34.

Get the feel of it. Experimental television. I haven't tasted this, I

:54:34.:54:42.

don't know what it tastes like. What do you think? Big! A bit too big.

:54:42.:54:51.

Too much? Yes. Horrible. Interesting. Number two.

:54:51.:54:55.

They did ask me earlier, can you guarantee they are not horse? I'm

:54:55.:55:00.

not sure we can guarantee what's in any of our burgers these days.

:55:00.:55:09.

That's my type of burger. A bit dry. You used to run a restaurant and

:55:09.:55:16.

apparently burgers are big sellers. The last one. Why do they always put

:55:16.:55:26.

this in it? I have no idea. That's the best of the lot. By a long way.

:55:26.:55:31.

Peter, you like this one, why do you like that? That's the type I

:55:31.:55:36.

normally eat. That's like a Mackie D. He might be right. You said that

:55:36.:55:41.

was the best of the lot. Why is it the best? Really juicy, lots of

:55:41.:55:47.

flavour. I would agree. It is a nice burg banker. Number three gets the

:55:47.:55:52.

vote. Which do you think is the most expensive? That one.And you are

:55:52.:55:57.

absolutely right. Why do you think that is the most expensive? It is

:55:57.:56:02.

the biggest. Just on size? I think it is good quality beef. There is an

:56:02.:56:06.

ingredient in there. Can you tell what it is? Horse?Possibly. I

:56:06.:56:13.

wouldn't be able to tell. But no is seafood. That's a beef and...

:56:13.:56:23.
:56:23.:56:26.

Lobster. That retails at around? �20. This one you liked most of you

:56:26.:56:31.

is the one the Chancellor had. Your Byron burger. That's why I didn't

:56:31.:56:38.

like it! No prizes for guessing, don't say on television where that

:56:38.:56:48.
:56:48.:56:50.

came from, a large multinational. They make the buns in Lancashire.

:56:50.:56:54.

which case you liked the bun but not the burger? It wasn't bad.Are you

:56:54.:57:04.

burger eaters? Yes. Yes. Only home-made ones. Get that! The big

:57:04.:57:08.

best seller you ever had? Restaurants can make their own,

:57:08.:57:13.

because people like them. They really do. When George was

:57:13.:57:17.

photographed with the burger that you don't like, was it a bit of a

:57:17.:57:22.

stunt? Did at this time backfire a bit? Yes. I don't care what burger

:57:23.:57:28.

he eats, he is doing a good job. Mrs Bone's rest rarncts when she had

:57:28.:57:32.

one, with she wouldn't have done those. It wasn't a restaurant, it

:57:32.:57:41.

was a tea room. Actually I'm being a bit posh. It was a caff! Shall we

:57:41.:57:48.

know more about what MPs eat? Keep ate secret? Transparency. It is what

:57:48.:57:53.

this negotiation Governments believes in. The hard politics done

:57:53.:57:59.

on the day with meat thrown in. You won't believe how many people behind

:57:59.:58:04.

the scenes are waiting to polish these off. Do you like burgers?

:58:04.:58:08.

really. That was short and sweet. Moving on from burgers and what

:58:08.:58:12.

George Osborne eats before a Spending Review. The answer to our

:58:12.:58:17.

quiz. I'm not going through all these names again.

:58:17.:58:23.

Which world leader and dictator said he would vote for David Cameron?

:58:23.:58:32.

The guy from North Korea, Kazakhstan, or New Guinea, or the

:58:32.:58:38.

one from Turkmenistan I presume it was where David Cameron was being

:58:38.:58:48.
:58:48.:58:48.

hosted. It was Kazakhstan. That's it for today. That's all for today.

:58:48.:58:51.

Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS