04/07/2013 Daily Politics


04/07/2013

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Politics. Democracy in Egypt is over. It lasted no more than a year.

:00:45.:00:48.

Last night, soldiers arrested the man the people elected President

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after decades of military rule. To wild celebrations, in Cairo's

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main square. So what happens now, and why are

:00:57.:01:03.

these young people, liberal secular and pro-democracy cheering on the

:01:03.:01:07.

Army as it mounts a military coup. At home, ministers tighten the rules

:01:07.:01:09.

on immigration. How ever if Equitablive are the rules and are

:01:09.:01:14.

they tight enough? And who's upset the speaker and just

:01:14.:01:18.

what have they done wrong? The administration of this matter

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has been woefully inadequate and frankly utterly incompetent. I've

:01:23.:01:30.

not known a worst example during my tenure as speaker.

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Was he talking to you? ! No, it was you! Me?Yes. Better not be.

:01:36.:01:41.

All that in the next hour. With us throughout the programme, Melanie

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Phillips. This is from the blurb in her book, once a Guardian feature

:01:46.:01:49.

writer, she changed her mind on practically everything and emerged

:01:49.:01:54.

to champion the high moral ground at the Daily Mail. That's what your

:01:54.:02:00.

publishers say about you? I'm the publisher of my own book you see. I

:02:00.:02:06.

wrote that blurb. I'm an e-book publisher, thank you for the advert,

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wasn't expecting that, but thank you. Cheque's in the post.

:02:10.:02:15.

The big news story of the day - the military coup in Egypt. Yesterday,

:02:15.:02:19.

soldiers arrested President Mohammed Morsi, the country's first freely

:02:19.:02:23.

elected leader. The President's opponents had been camped out in

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Cairo's main square for days and the move sparked wild celebrations. Army

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chiefs say they are suspending the constitution which had been improved

:02:31.:02:35.

by a referendum just last year and are promising to hold new elections

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after a brief transition. Within the last hour, the Prime

:02:39.:02:47.

Minister has given his reaction. We have we never support the

:02:47.:02:50.

intervention by the military, but what now needs to happen, what we

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need to happen now in Egypt, is for democracy to flourish and for a

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genuine democratic transition to take place and all parties need to

:02:59.:03:04.

be involved. That's what Britain and our allies will be saying to the

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Egyptians. With us from Tahrir Square is the BBC's Ben Brown. Ben,

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we saw the wild celebrations, the pictures of Tahrir Square being

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full. What is the atmosphere like there now?

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Much quieter, Jo, than it was last night. Feels rather like the morning

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after the night before. Last night, that square was absolutely packed

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with tens of thousands of people and when they heard the announcement

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from the Head of The Armed Forces that effectively, they were taking

:03:35.:03:38.

over or there was going to be a new interim president taking over and

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that Mr Morsi was out of power, the people in the square went absolutely

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crazy, setting off fireworks, firing their green lasers into the night

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sky. Today, a lot quieter, a few people down on the square. The

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Egyptian Air Force actually a few minutes ago did a rather dramatic

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celebratory flypast over the city. Nine jets trailing red,

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black-and-white smoke, the colours of the Egyptian flag, so a

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celebration from the military, of course. The people here in the

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square have not described this as a military coup. They say it was

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people power that forced out Mohammed Morsi, but Mr Morsi's

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supporters in the country say he was this country's first democratically

:04:22.:04:27.

elected lead leader. Only a year ago he was elected with more than 50% of

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the vote and now he's been pushed out of power, they say, by a

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full-scale military coup. Thank you.

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We are joined by Jack Straw. He was Foreign Secretary from 2001-2006.

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Welcome to to Richard Ottaway too. Should we regard this as a military

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coup? Yes, because it is a military coup and the Middle East editor,

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Jeremy Bowen, has been saying exactly that. No two ways about it.

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Of course, there is obviously quite a lot of popular support for this,

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but we should be very clear indeed that if you have democratic

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elections and no-one said they weren't democratic when they took

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place a year ago, you need to respect the result, even if it is

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the result you don't like and so, a very clear message has to go out.

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Whatever the reality we have to accommodate now, we can't pick and

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choose the results of elections. We support the democratic principle

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because it's the best long-term way of ensuring stability and prosperity

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for people and that has to be the message for the people of Egypt.

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you regard it as a military coup, as Jack Straw described it? Yes, I do.

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Democracy really has gone out of the window here at the moment. I think

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there have been misunderstanding on all sides. I think the President,

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President Morsi, has decided he'd rule, rather than govern. The people

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have expected quick results which haven't been possible to achieve and

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I think the real mistake was when the constitutional court over

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overthrew or decided that the elections to the lower House were

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uncontusional and President Morsi didn't have fresh elections. That

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was the moment it started to go wrong. How long before the young

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people largely secular, liberal, as Jo was saying, who were cheering the

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demise of Mr Morsi last night, how long before the Army's knocking on

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their doors and starting to pull out their toe nails and stick catting

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prod in them? I'm afraid the default setting of the Egyptian military is

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not necessarily cattle prod, but it's to rule by that kind of method.

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And Richard is right to say that Morsi's error was to rule, not to

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govern, and not to recognise that if you are in a democracy, you give

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vent and power to the will of the majority, but you also are very

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careful about the rights of minorities and the rights of

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individuals who disagree with you. That's how you get a balance, as we

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have in this country. But this is not a military take-over is not a

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solution. Does the British Government recognise the military?

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As William Hague said this morning, we recognise states, not Government.

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We have made it clear that we intend to work with the new Government to

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try to bring about a democracy. Can I just pick up on a point that Jack

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was making there. These young people in Tahrir Square are enthusiastic

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and secular. The truth of the matter is, over 70% of Egypt is Islamic and

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voted for Islamic Parties in the one time they had a chance. Particular

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political the working case and the rural. I think the young people are

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still in for a big shock. They mange they have a result, but in the

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long-term... That was the point of my question to Jack.

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The fact is though, that the Muslim Brotherhood, the party was elected,

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a lot of people don't think the elections were quite as transparent

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as Jack Straw has made out, they've governed very badly and they have

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instituted a lot of the Islamic things that these young folk don't

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like. I mean, the country could be heading, either for a

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straightforward military dictatorship or a Civil War?

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could be heading for a number of things, including an Islamic

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Republic, an Islamic regime. But the mistake being made by my colleagues

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here and by the Prime Minister and the President of America is to

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confuse elections with democracy. I mean you are quite right that

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overturning an elected result, the result of an election, is not good.

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But the idea that elections bring democracy is simply false, as we

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have heard. Mr Morsi was governing uncontusionally. The people opt

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streets were reacting to what they saw as the progressive imposition of

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Islamic tyranny, which had been facilitated by the naivety and

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stupidity of the British and American Governments which looked at

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Mr Mubarak and helped lever him out and installed the Muslim Brotherhood

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on the basis of the Muslim Brotherhood as people we can do

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business with. They are Islamic fundamentalist fanatics and people

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are reacting against that. Sounds like an argument in favour of

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oligarchs. Richard nor I don't believe elections equal democracy.

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However, you may not have spotted this, but you can't have democracy

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without elections. It's a necessary but not a sufficient component of a

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democratic system and, one of the real tragedies is, they had

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elections, they are not perfect but they are relatively free, no-one

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denied the mandate that Morsi achieved. Plenty of mistakes were

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made. He won?He did win, fair and square. With the backing of the

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American President. Leave that fact out. It's important.I believe the

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future of the Arab world depends critically on there being democratic

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Governments installed. It's not happening though, is it? But the

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elections bring to power Islamic fundamental... Melanie, so what are

:10:03.:10:09.

you going to do? Are you going to send the tax in, whenever you go get

:10:09.:10:15.

a democracy you don't like, this was a failure, included a mistake made

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by me, Palestinian territories, we had elections and I kept saying to

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people, you could end up with the wrong answer, Hamas and we did.

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mistake after another from your Government and the Americans.

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can't say there shouldn't be elections. Sorry about this, what

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you have to say, even in this country we sometimes get Governments

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we don't like. There shouldn't be elections until you have free press,

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free judges, free police officers. This country took hundreds of years

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when before we got to the point of elections. What about the interim?

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You will have people in charge who're undemocratic regimes which

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are not nice and you have elected regimes which are nice. What do you

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make of the Egyptian Army? In many ways, it's similar to the Chinese

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Army, runs its own businesses, it's very important as as part of

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Egyptian society, it's a way Egyptians make your way up if you

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work hard. They are not going to give this up, are they? I was out in

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Egypt before the elections and met President Morsi before he became

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President. I have to say, Melanie, if you think President Morsi's a

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fundamentalist, you've got a big shop coming. Just go and visit the

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other hardliners. What a shame Mr Mubarak went. You think that's a

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shame? Absolutely. He was dreadful, but what came after him was worse

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and what will come after this will be worse. What I discussed with

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President Morsi was health, transport services and religion

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doesn't come into this stuff in providing basic fundamental

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services. That's why the Americans, rightly, decided they were people

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they could do business with. Jack Straw, can I ask you to step back a

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bit. If we look at the borders of this part of the Maghreb and into

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the Lavant, they were all drawn, just half a mile from here, in the

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office where you use Yahoo!ed to work by Mr Sykes, the Brit and Mr

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Pickle, the Frenchman. That survived in various ways. -- used to work.

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Are we seeing this Syrian war tipping into Lebanon with these

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events in Egypt, is that the Sykes Pickle settlement beginning to

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unravel? Look, the Sykes Pickle settlement was never a proper

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settlement because during the First World War, we made three

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contradictory sets of undertakes, this agreement was to carve up the

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Arab world, Maghreb, Lavant between France and the UK. There was letters

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which basically said it was handed over to the Arabs and then the

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Balfour one which said we'd create a state of Israel. We created the

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stability, that said that's getting on for 100 years ago. What is

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happening now? We have to do our best to ensure that there is

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relative stability there and I just say to Melanie whose argument in

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favour of authoritarian regimes is refreshingly honest if nothing else,

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that one of the reasons you have had a rise of not just thes Muslim

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Brotherhood but also the Salifies, is precisely because people's wish

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to have a say and for prosperity was held down by the regimes like

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Mubarak and you reap what you sew in this life, Melanie. Easy agree.

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That's why you have the problems. agree and I'm the first person to

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support the desire for true democracy among a proportion of the

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population. When you say I support authoritarian regimes, you know

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that's a can cheap jibe. I'm saying that you in your naivety are setting

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the authoritarian regimes against democracy. What you have brought

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about is, through the appearance of democracy, elected dictatorships.

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All right. Richard, an attempt to look at the wider picture now -

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these countries that were created, you can see how artificial they are

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because they are straight, so you know someone draws on the map. You

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have Iran standing to the east of all this, a major player in Syria

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and in Lebanon, on the border with Israel, we have Civil War in Syria,

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we have Jordan on its knees because it cannot afford to look after these

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refugees and they are destabilising it. We could be on the brink. We

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have had a military coup in Egypt and we could be on the brink of

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Civil War there. This region is unravelling, I would suggest to you?

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In total turmoil and was intervention, Melanie and I

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fundamentally disagree with you, we are facing a major configuration

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where the people are trying to express their views. It's not a

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spring or uprising, it's a change. It's a fundamental change. You are

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right to point to Iran pulling the strings with Hezbollah. The

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Palestine Israel question is off the agenda now at the moment. Jordan is

:15:17.:15:22.

really struggling. The king is doing his best at the moment. One rule and

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one thing that comes out of this, the rule we are going to learn from

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history is you have to stay ahead of the curve and this is a man busting

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a gut here to stay ahead of the curve and to do the right thing and

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hold on to the country. We are leaving the country, but we are not

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leaving the region, are we? We'll look at Syria in more detail. Next

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weekend, MPs will debate whether they should be given a vet if ever

:15:46.:15:49.

the British Government decides to send weapons to the opposition. In a

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moment, we'll discuss the vexed issue of arming the rebels, but

:15:53.:16:03.
:16:03.:16:09.

first, Adam will bring us up-to-date the United Nations estimates that

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90,000 have been killed and nearly 2 million have become refugees. A

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fortnight ago, the White House confirmed that Assad had used

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chemical weapons. The Obama administration also said it was

:16:21.:16:26.

upping its support for the rebels, who are massively outgunned. The UK

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is still providing them with non-lethal assistance such as

:16:30.:16:33.

armoured vehicles and body armour. Next week, MPs will debate whether

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they should be given a vote if the British government bans to go any

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further. There are still questions about who the rebels are. The BBC

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has seen mounting evidence of Sharia law in some of the areas that they

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hold, including the execution of a 14-year-old boy for blasphemy. All

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sides came in for criticism from our guest of the day on question Time

:16:55.:16:59.

last month. She said the real issue was Iran and got this reaction when

:16:59.:17:09.
:17:09.:17:11.

she said it was a country that That is the problem, the defeatism

:17:11.:17:14.

of the British people against a clear threat to this country's

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interest. It was all smiles at the G8 summit.

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All they can read agree on is where the regime and rebel should meet for

:17:25.:17:28.

peace talks in Geneva, which seem to be slipping further and further into

:17:28.:17:32.

the distance. Richard Ottaway and Jack Straw are

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still with us. Do we know who the rebels are in Syria? We know a lot

:17:40.:17:44.

of who the rebels are, a lot of them are sensible, some of them are not.

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Some of them give us very great cause for alarm. One of the reason

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why I am a reluctant... Not wholly opposed but reluctant to see us

:17:53.:17:58.

arming the rebels, I certainly would not vote for it if there was a vote

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tomorrow, I am not clear what controls there would be on the

:18:01.:18:06.

weaponry. Is David Cameron being naive in his apparent support for

:18:06.:18:12.

the rebels, non-lethal support as he would call it? No, I think it is a

:18:12.:18:16.

sensible humanitarian gesture, as long as it is non-lethal support.

:18:16.:18:22.

The difficulty is knowing what is non-lethal and what is lethal. Is

:18:22.:18:27.

training people with weapons lethal support? I think David Cameron is

:18:27.:18:31.

driven by Basic instinct, to try to stabilise the region and he will do

:18:31.:18:37.

what ever he thinks necessary. The humanitarian case has been appalling

:18:37.:18:43.

but we are now seeing images of sharia law being used, the execution

:18:44.:18:49.

of a 14-year-old boy is equally shocking. What does it do to your

:18:49.:18:55.

mindset when dealing with the Syrian situation? There are good rebels and

:18:55.:18:58.

bad rebels and the trouble is finding a distinction between the

:18:58.:19:04.

two. The whole region is fragmenting and I agree that bundling in a few

:19:04.:19:11.

cases of rivals will not help things at all. We should only do something

:19:11.:19:14.

in Syria if we think it would improve the lives and prosperity of

:19:14.:19:19.

the people of Syria. Gesture politics is long gone here and there

:19:19.:19:24.

is no obviously should. Maybe just doing nothing is the right solution.

:19:24.:19:31.

Is it the right decision? I think I absolutely agree, we are looking at

:19:31.:19:35.

two hideous alternatives in Syria. Assad is a hideous situation and we

:19:35.:19:39.

can all see what a terrible butcher and tyrant he is. He has run a

:19:39.:19:43.

regime which is a sponsor of international terrorism against

:19:43.:19:47.

Western interest, so he is terrible. What opposes him is as

:19:47.:19:52.

bad, if not worse, probably worse, insofar as the intentions towards us

:19:52.:19:56.

are concerned. It is a bit like what I was saying earlier about

:19:56.:20:01.

authoritarian regimes. We are facing... Looking at the Middle East

:20:01.:20:05.

region, facing a situation where there is no good option. It is only

:20:05.:20:09.

a series of what is the least worst option. It is a hideous choice but

:20:09.:20:14.

from our point of view there is no point in getting involved in arming

:20:14.:20:17.

people who might themselves be extremely dubious and not in our

:20:17.:20:23.

best interest to arm, and secondly, those arms may fall into the hands

:20:23.:20:27.

of people who are really a threat to us. Should the government be

:20:27.:20:33.

supporting the rebels at all? No. view is that in the whole region, we

:20:33.:20:37.

should only ever be involved if there is a clear advantage to our

:20:37.:20:43.

national interest. It is not the case that we are doing nothing.

:20:43.:20:48.

There is a great deal of non-lethal support. It is doing quite a lot of

:20:48.:20:55.

Anshuman a Terry and aid. Slightly more hopeful news from the region --

:20:55.:21:05.
:21:05.:21:12.

Iranians. There is a chance that we can. I am not naive about Iran.

:21:12.:21:19.

did not get anywhere four-year is? We were getting somewhere. -- you

:21:19.:21:29.
:21:29.:21:31.

Americans got what they didn't want, Ahmadinejad. We have got to get Iran

:21:32.:21:36.

to this peace conference which is planned in Geneva. What did you mean

:21:36.:21:40.

when you said Iran should be neutralised? Green I meant that, the

:21:40.:21:47.

threat should be neutralised. It is stunningly naive and we have been

:21:47.:21:50.

negotiating with Iran one way or another for a very long time. We

:21:50.:21:54.

have given them the one priceless gift they wanted, time to make their

:21:54.:22:04.
:22:04.:22:06.

lot of alarming evidence that they don't want nuclear energy just for

:22:06.:22:13.

peaceful purposes. We have a former British Foreign Secretary here,

:22:13.:22:19.

seeming to question that Iran has a nuclear programme for weapons

:22:19.:22:25.

purposes, is that what you are saying? My instinct about Iran is

:22:25.:22:28.

that they are building a civil nuclear programme and they want the

:22:29.:22:31.

intellectual capacity to make a nuclear weapons programme as well,

:22:31.:22:36.

but there is no evidence, not from the IAEA, not from the Americans,

:22:36.:22:39.

quite the reverse from the Americans, which says there is a

:22:39.:22:43.

smoking gun here. Much less of a smoking gun then there was in

:22:43.:22:50.

respect of Iraq or Libya. Are you saying they are not involved in

:22:50.:22:55.

building a bomb as we speak? I don't know for certain but there is no

:22:55.:23:01.

evidence they are involved in building a bomb at the moment.

:23:01.:23:09.

halfway between these two. The IAEA, which I went to the other day, is a

:23:09.:23:13.

very cautious organisation and they will not say they are building a

:23:13.:23:19.

bomb unless they can hold up a bomb. That isn't going to happen. But they

:23:19.:23:22.

are saying there is quite a lot of supporting evidence that they have

:23:22.:23:28.

gone beyond the civil programme, into a nuclear capacity. You said

:23:28.:23:35.

neutralised but you did not say how. We only had sanctions that started

:23:35.:23:38.

to bite quite recently and that was a terrible mistake. Military action

:23:38.:23:44.

always much be an absolute last resort. You only take military

:23:44.:23:51.

action if the alternative is worse. Neutralise means we have to remove

:23:52.:24:00.

the threat of the Iranian nuclear bomb. The war?No, which means no

:24:00.:24:04.

longer talking to them. Which means excluding them from the Society of

:24:04.:24:13.

civilised nations, which we have not done. Will it make a difference?

:24:13.:24:17.

Absolutely. They must know that there is a big stick that we are

:24:17.:24:23.

wielding, the Americans, it is only the Americans who matter. The United

:24:23.:24:26.

States publishes a National intelligence estimate, they

:24:26.:24:33.

published one in 2007, saying that they judge that Iran had abandoned

:24:33.:24:37.

its development of nuclear weapons programmes in 2003 and saw no

:24:37.:24:40.

evidence it was being brought back. That has not been countermanded

:24:40.:24:49.

since. I accept there is ambiguous evidence about the enrichment of

:24:49.:24:55.

uranium but that does not equal a bomb. Are you satisfied that the

:24:55.:24:58.

government has committed itself to the idea there would be a vote in

:24:58.:25:03.

parliament before arms could be sent to Syrian rebels? Absolutely, Andrew

:25:03.:25:07.

Lansley, leader of the house, said it in undeniable terms, that there

:25:07.:25:14.

would be a vote. The debate is slightly academic. And a vote that

:25:14.:25:21.

the government probably would not win. It depends what is proposed.As

:25:21.:25:26.

always. Thank you, gentlemen. The Government has been promising

:25:27.:25:29.

more action on immigration this week - clamping down on landlords renting

:25:30.:25:32.

to illegal immigrants and charging non-European migrants to use the

:25:32.:25:35.

NHS. Today, ministers have been talking about tightening up on the

:25:35.:25:45.
:25:45.:25:50.

rules on soldiers who might want to bring family members into the UK. In

:25:50.:25:52.

a moment we'll talk to the Immigration Minister about the

:25:52.:25:55.

changes but first, Jo's going to take us through the coalition's

:25:55.:25:57.

attempts to reduce net migration. The Conservative Party's 2010

:25:57.:26:00.

Manifesto stated: "We will take steps to take net migration back to

:26:00.:26:04.

the levels of the 1990s - tens of thousands a year, not hundreds of

:26:04.:26:06.

thousands". To achieve this, the coalition has introduced a number of

:26:06.:26:09.

measures to reduce non-EU migrants. Since 2011 they have imposed an

:26:09.:26:11.

immigration cap stipulating that only 20,700 non-European workers can

:26:11.:26:17.

enter the UK each year. The rules surrounding visas for non-European

:26:17.:26:19.

students have been tightened and hundreds of colleges stripped of

:26:19.:26:25.

their rights to bring international students to the UK. They have also

:26:25.:26:27.

introduced new rules for the families of migrants from outside

:26:27.:26:31.

Europe - you must earn a minimum of �18,600 if you want to bring a

:26:31.:26:39.

spouse or partner into the country, more if you have children as well.

:26:39.:26:44.

Today this has been extended to cover members of the Armed Forces.

:26:44.:26:46.

And yesterday, proposals were unveiled that could see non-EU

:26:46.:26:51.

migrants forced to pay at least �200 a year to access the NHS. Despite

:26:51.:26:55.

proving controversial, these measures appear to be working. The

:26:55.:26:58.

most recent figures showed a drop in net migration of 89,000 to 153,000

:26:58.:27:05.

in the year ending September 2012. But they can't do anything about the

:27:05.:27:08.

number of European immigrants and with restrictions due to be lifted

:27:08.:27:11.

on Romanians and Bulgarians entering the country at the end of the year,

:27:11.:27:20.

could we be set to experience a rise again?

:27:20.:27:23.

I'm now joined by the Chairman of the Home Affairs Select Committee

:27:23.:27:30.

Keith Vaz, and the Immigration Minister Mark Harper. Mark Harper,

:27:30.:27:33.

you have extended the family migration rules, you want to bring

:27:33.:27:40.

in your spouse, to cover the Armed Forces. You set a salary limit of

:27:40.:27:45.

�18,600 a year. Which is higher than the basic salary of a regular

:27:45.:27:50.

soldier. We looked carefully at that. After three years in the Armed

:27:50.:27:55.

Forces, most member will be earning higher than that number. We have

:27:55.:27:59.

done two things. When we brought the rules in last year, we deliberately

:27:59.:28:02.

did not bring them into the Armed Forces because the Home Office and

:28:02.:28:04.

Ministry of Defence wanted to make sure we would not disadvantaged

:28:04.:28:09.

people, articulate those who serve overseas. When we brought in the

:28:09.:28:13.

rules that apply to the Armed Forces, those who are already on a

:28:13.:28:17.

path to a settlement, who have applied for a Visa, will be dealt

:28:17.:28:24.

with under the old rules. It applies to new people who join and we have

:28:24.:28:27.

very good and transitional arrangements which will be made

:28:27.:28:34.

clear to service personnel. If you are in phase one training on �275 a

:28:34.:28:41.

week, it rises to �17,767 after a year. You have been serving your

:28:41.:28:47.

country and you have set a limit higher than what they are learning.

:28:47.:28:50.

The rules should apply to everybody who wants to bring a foreign

:28:50.:28:53.

national spouse into the United Kingdom, they apply to everybody

:28:53.:28:57.

else in the UK. Once you have been in the Armed Forces for three years,

:28:57.:29:03.

your salary will in able you to do that and we think it is fair and

:29:03.:29:08.

reasonable. If you are an officer you can do it, but if you are a

:29:08.:29:13.

squaddie, you will not be able to. Once you have been in the Armed

:29:13.:29:17.

Forces for three years, you will be earning more than the salary level.

:29:17.:29:20.

It was one of the questions I asked we looked at income through the

:29:21.:29:26.

Armed Forces. This is most unfair but my constituents have had to put

:29:26.:29:29.

up with this since the rules changed. The average salary in

:29:29.:29:33.

Leicester is 16,000. You are now allowed to fall in love, you are

:29:33.:29:36.

allowed to get married, at you can't bring your spouse in unless you

:29:36.:29:44.

reach that limit. I thought it was a booming migrant city of

:29:44.:29:46.

entrepreneurs and hard-working successful people? You're not paying

:29:46.:29:55.

them enough restaurant I don't do them the pain. I don't work for the

:29:55.:30:05.
:30:05.:30:08.

BBC so they have to take what they some are working very long hours to

:30:09.:30:12.

get up to that limit. I don't think there was abuse under the old

:30:12.:30:18.

system. Mark and his government extended the length of time people

:30:18.:30:22.

had to stay here before they could get indefinite leave and claim

:30:22.:30:28.

benefits. I think it was the right thing to do, to make it a longer

:30:28.:30:31.

probation or period, and that is the way you deal with abuse --

:30:31.:30:36.

probationary period. I think the service personnel will have years

:30:36.:30:39.

and years of misery without their spouses before they come in and that

:30:40.:30:48.

is very sad. Let me make it clear why Twell made the changes. You can

:30:48.:30:51.

fall in love and marry whoever you want. If you want to bring your

:30:51.:30:54.

family to the UK, we are just asking you to support them, rather than the

:30:54.:30:58.

taxpayer. The reason we set the salary level, it wasn't a made up

:30:58.:31:04.

figure, we got the migration advisory committee to do some

:31:05.:31:08.

research on it. You have to stand on your own two feet. We had a debate

:31:08.:31:11.

in the House of Commons and there's a debate in the House of Lords this

:31:11.:31:14.

afternoon. Lots of Labour MPs didn't like it and said it was unfair.

:31:14.:31:18.

Interestingly, and Keith's challenged the Labour frontbench on

:31:18.:31:21.

this, the Labour frontbench don't seem to be disagreeing with this. I

:31:21.:31:27.

think they know it's the right thing to do and it's popular. It's about

:31:27.:31:30.

making people being able to support themselves. In general, is the

:31:30.:31:34.

Government on the right track on immigration? In general I think they

:31:34.:31:39.

are. I mean, it's a very serious problem that we now face, due to

:31:39.:31:45.

many years of wilful neglect and worse, in just ignoring the terrible

:31:45.:31:49.

strain put on the country by accepting too many people. The

:31:49.:31:54.

Government is trying to bite the bullet. I'm not sure about the

:31:54.:31:58.

arcane details of precisely what salary levels should be and so on,

:31:58.:32:04.

but the minister makes a perfectly reasonable case about the point

:32:04.:32:07.

people standing on their own two feet, we should say welcome to them.

:32:07.:32:11.

We should say welcome to immigrants, immigration enriches the life of a

:32:11.:32:16.

nation. I myself am the grand child of immigrants, but we all have to

:32:16.:32:21.

understand that there comes a point where a society simply can't take so

:32:21.:32:27.

many people. Keith Vaz, there is a general mood in the country that

:32:27.:32:32.

we'd like a break from mass immigration, which is what we had

:32:32.:32:36.

during the Labour years? The 26 years I've been in Parliament,

:32:36.:32:39.

there's always been the issue of immigration. Thest not something

:32:39.:32:43.

new, Melanie. People have always said there's too many people coming

:32:43.:32:48.

in, I declare my interest as a first generation immigrant, I was nine

:32:48.:32:51.

when I came here. Immigration's hugely benefitted the UK, however,

:32:51.:32:56.

it's the detail that's going to cause so many difficulties. Are you

:32:56.:33:04.

against the principle under Labour? It rose to over a net immigration

:33:04.:33:10.

into this country of over 250,000, sometimes higher than that. As a

:33:10.:33:14.

growth figure, it was over 500,000 a year. The Government want to bring

:33:14.:33:18.

this down, it was a manifesto pledge of theirs, is that right or wrong?

:33:18.:33:22.

It's right under Labour and under this Government as well. The system

:33:22.:33:26.

of immigration is still broken. It was Theresa May who said only in

:33:26.:33:30.

March of this year that the body that was administered to look after

:33:30.:33:36.

immigration, the UK Border Agency was closed, secretive and defensive.

:33:36.:33:40.

That hasn't changed in four months, it's the administration that's the

:33:40.:33:44.

problem. You can avoid my broader question, but is it right to be

:33:45.:33:49.

cutting net migration by roughly the ballpark figure that the Government

:33:49.:33:53.

is attempting? No, it isn't right because, at the Prime Minister said

:33:53.:33:57.

in the leaked letter today, what's happened on education is that fewer

:33:57.:34:01.

students want to come into this country. As a result of that, he's

:34:01.:34:05.

suggesting, or somebody in Number Ten is suggesting that people should

:34:05.:34:08.

be allowed to go to our schools and pay to go to our schools when they

:34:08.:34:12.

come from abroad. The proper universities in this country have

:34:12.:34:16.

had a record intake of foreign students? They have.Public schools

:34:16.:34:21.

have been closing which you allowed to flourish under Labour? I didn't

:34:21.:34:27.

because I wasn't the minister. were an avatar for Labour?

:34:27.:34:30.

committee's made it clear that under successive Governments, they had not

:34:30.:34:34.

done enough about abuse. This is changing and the issue is cutting

:34:34.:34:37.

down on abuse, welcoming people and there's common ground on this

:34:37.:34:41.

between Mark and I, those who make a contribution should be allowed to

:34:41.:34:45.

come to our country. Those who come illegally... Sometimes you don't

:34:45.:34:49.

know it until they arrive? I'm not in favour of the amnesty, for

:34:49.:34:53.

example. People would never have known you were going to make a

:34:53.:34:56.

contribution until you got here. At the border we probably would have

:34:56.:35:00.

said, don't let him in, and what a mistake that would job! You would

:35:00.:35:04.

have noticed the skills I would have contributed and immediately let me

:35:04.:35:08.

and my sisters in! But the fact is, let's take the politics out of

:35:08.:35:14.

immigration. I think... Really?Yes. There's a lot of common ground.

:35:14.:35:21.

We'll all be pushing up the Daisies before that happens. The only party,

:35:21.:35:26.

an anti-immigration party, is UKIP. The rest there's common ground.

:35:26.:35:29.

Melanie's right. We welcome immigrants, but people want a system

:35:29.:35:32.

that's under control. We want people coming here to contribute. The

:35:32.:35:37.

points we made in the consultations yesterday about making people come

:35:37.:35:44.

here to study and about make making contributions to the Health Service,

:35:44.:35:47.

that's right, stopping people being able to rent property if they don't

:35:47.:35:53.

have the right to be here is right, so it discourages those who're not

:35:53.:35:58.

having a trying be here. We have rules on family migrations, you can

:35:58.:36:07.

come here and you have to stand on your own two feet, don't expect the

:36:07.:36:11.

taxpayer to contribute for you. and sausages are two things you

:36:11.:36:15.

never want to see being made. The European Parliament in a surprise

:36:15.:36:18.

move yesterday passed a Bill that will have a huge effect on energy

:36:18.:36:23.

Bills for the next 40 years. It will force up the price of carbon

:36:23.:36:26.

allowances and the EU's Emissions Trading Scheme. That's not been a

:36:26.:36:30.

great success so far. It's largely been irrelevant. They are trying to

:36:30.:36:34.

change that. It seeks to make businesses pay for the CO 2

:36:34.:36:37.

emissions and they'll pass on the Cos to the consumer. That would be

:36:37.:36:42.

us, by which point we won't feel so enthusiastic about it. The vote ends

:36:42.:36:46.

over the future of the EU oo else energy and climate change policy and

:36:46.:36:51.

the climate change commissioner, Connie Hedegaard joins us now from

:36:51.:37:01.
:37:01.:37:04.

Brussels -- E U's commissioner. Why are you pushing up the costs at a

:37:04.:37:08.

time when it's on its knees? We are not pushing up costs, we are taking

:37:08.:37:12.

care that despite the Christ sits in Europe, we are not making it free,

:37:12.:37:16.

making it cost nothing to pollute. I think most Europeans would agree

:37:16.:37:22.

that that would not be a wise future strategy for Europe. What we are

:37:22.:37:31.

trying to achieve is that the price to pollute will come back to what

:37:31.:37:34.

they were last fall. It's extremely important to get the proportion

:37:34.:37:40.

right. So far the scheme's been ineffective because the price hasn't

:37:40.:37:45.

mattered, it's down to five euros I think, a metric tonne of CO 2 and

:37:45.:37:52.

maybe even lower, so it doesn't affect it. You can only get the

:37:52.:37:56.

industries to produce less CO 2 if you charge them a lot more for doing

:37:56.:38:00.

it. So by definition, your same to make it more expensive to do

:38:00.:38:09.

business in Europe? It. So by definition, your same to

:38:09.:38:11.

make it more expensive to do business in Europe?

:38:11.:38:14.

We want to put a price on pollution. It's clear that if I say we should

:38:14.:38:18.

take care that the price is not coming too close to zero, that the

:38:18.:38:23.

price costs more than if it was at zero. I'm not sure that's bad for

:38:23.:38:28.

industry. When we analyse in the commission which sectors have the

:38:28.:38:33.

potential in Europe in the coming years, to create the jobs we so

:38:33.:38:38.

badly need in Europe, which sectors come out? Communication, health and

:38:38.:38:43.

the green sector, renewables, energy efficiency and waste handling. That

:38:43.:38:48.

has actually been proven through the crisis that the green sector has the

:38:48.:38:53.

potential really and has done and made a contribution to net creation

:38:53.:38:59.

of jobs. So I would say if there is an incentive to produce greener,

:38:59.:39:02.

cleaner, more efficient products, on the other hand is what this whole

:39:02.:39:08.

discussion is all about, then it can stimulate innovation in our

:39:08.:39:11.

countries and create growth and export possibilities for Europe. I

:39:11.:39:16.

simply do not buy the claim that if we had a decent price on polluting

:39:16.:39:22.

with CO2 that it's a negative effect for jobs. It's not. But Europe is

:39:22.:39:26.

awash with unemployed people and even before you eve... Not because

:39:26.:39:30.

of climate policies. Let me finish the question. But that is extremely

:39:30.:39:37.

parent to get it right -- important to get right... Even before you add

:39:37.:39:44.

to the price, European energy costs are the highest in the world.

:39:44.:39:48.

Germany's 40% higher than the average, this country's lost its

:39:48.:39:53.

almum-in industry because of the costs. French companies are

:39:53.:40:02.

investing in America now, being built in the East Ohio Valley. In

:40:02.:40:06.

BASF, one of the biggest producers of chemicals, now unvesting in the

:40:06.:40:10.

US, not in Germany, you are forcing industry to leave? !

:40:10.:40:15.

No. It's simply wrong. Although it was a very, very long question for

:40:15.:40:20.

someone who's supposed to interview, but take the steel sector that you

:40:20.:40:23.

mentioned, we have just analysed that very carefully in the

:40:23.:40:28.

commission, together with the steel sector. Why does the steel sector in

:40:28.:40:32.

Europe have problems? They have it because they have Sa surplus

:40:32.:40:36.

capacity, they have too much capacity. Some people, like

:40:36.:40:40.

yourselves, tend to argue that that's because of climate policies,

:40:40.:40:45.

but what is the reality - the reality is that the steel sector up

:40:45.:40:50.

until this very day has benefitted economically from the European

:40:50.:40:54.

emissions ratings scheme, even the steel sector would admit that after

:40:54.:40:59.

the exercise exercise we have been through with them. My point is that

:40:59.:41:02.

yes we are in very challenging times in Europe. It's incredibly important

:41:02.:41:06.

to create the jobs. It's not a purpose in itself to give people

:41:06.:41:11.

higher bills for anything, but if I were going to choose, should we

:41:11.:41:17.

lower taxation and pricing of Labour or should we do it with energy and

:41:17.:41:20.

resources, I believe that most Europeans would agree, it is

:41:20.:41:25.

probably a very good idea for Europe to become more energy efficient as

:41:25.:41:28.

almost no region in the world imports as much of its energy as we

:41:28.:41:34.

do in Europe. How would we bring down that kind of cost? Last year,

:41:34.:41:41.

every day in Europe, we paid 1 billion euros for our oil, our

:41:41.:41:46.

imported oil. Wouldn't it be a good idea to have an incentive to become

:41:46.:41:50.

more energy and resource official, bring down that kind of cost and

:41:50.:41:54.

instead invest in activities and industries in Europe? That is

:41:54.:42:01.

pacically at the core of of what we are trying to do. OK, I had a long

:42:01.:42:04.

question, but you were allowed a long answer. What's more important

:42:04.:42:09.

to you, capping CO2 emissions or getting jobs for the 25 million

:42:09.:42:12.

people in Europe who don't have jobs? A very good question. To me

:42:12.:42:16.

it's not an either or. We have to get out of the economic crisis and

:42:16.:42:21.

create the jobs. It's not so that we can say, let's do that first and

:42:21.:42:25.

then some five, ten, 15 years from now when we have nothing else to do

:42:25.:42:29.

hopefully, then we could come to our climate challenges and resource

:42:29.:42:33.

challenges. We have to do it intelligently - we

:42:33.:42:38.

do that by trying to find the instruments, the tools, where we can

:42:38.:42:41.

both do something good for our economy and create the jobs we need

:42:41.:42:45.

and at the same time also do it in a way that's not harming the climate

:42:45.:42:49.

policies. Unfortunately, climate change is getting worse, so that is

:42:49.:42:53.

also a crisis that we need to attend to as part of the economic

:42:53.:42:58.

challenge. Sorry, I haven't got time to pursue you on your claim there

:42:58.:43:02.

that climate change is getting worse. We have to leave it there,

:43:02.:43:07.

come back and see us soon for another interview. Will you do that?

:43:07.:43:10.

Yes, you are welcome. Bye-bye. a good day.

:43:10.:43:15.

I think that's a yes! The speaker of the House doesn't have an easy job.

:43:15.:43:19.

No, I don't envy him. One minute you are keeping across the mind

:43:19.:43:24.

numbingly boring detail of a Parliamentary legislation detail,

:43:24.:43:28.

the next you are trying to keep the House in order while hundreds of MPs

:43:28.:43:35.

yell at each other. So speakers develop a bruising and robust style.

:43:35.:43:39.

John Bercow had a go at the Secretary of Defence Philip Hammond

:43:39.:43:46.

when he refused to produce notes. One thing is for certain, if you get

:43:46.:43:55.

told off by John Bercow, you stay told off by him. Here is a look at

:43:55.:44:02.

him. Woefully inadequate and frankly utterly incompetent. I've not known

:44:02.:44:07.

a worst example as my tenure as speaker. Although the Secretary of

:44:07.:44:10.

State's expressed himself in understated terms, I hope he feels a

:44:10.:44:13.

sense of embarrassment and contrition at what has been a total

:44:13.:44:17.

mishandling by his Department for Which the right honourable gentleman

:44:17.:44:23.

is solely responsible. If we could tackle this problem,

:44:23.:44:26.

then... I say to the honourable member for Bridgwater, be quiet, if

:44:27.:44:30.

you can't be quiet, get out. You are adding nothing, you are subtracting

:44:30.:44:36.

a lot. It's rude, it's stupid, it's pompous and it needs to stop.

:44:36.:44:42.

She tends 20 behave as though every exchange is somehow a conversation

:44:42.:44:47.

with her. If the Government had wanted - don't shake her head - if

:44:47.:44:50.

the Government wanted to put the honourable lady up to answer, it

:44:50.:44:54.

could have done. It didn't. What I say in all courtesy to the

:44:54.:45:00.

honourable lady is, sit there, be quiet and if you can't do so, leave

:45:00.:45:04.

the chamber, we can manage without you.

:45:04.:45:08.

Mr Stuart, I'm going to say it to you once and once only, you are far

:45:08.:45:12.

too excitable, be quiet and calm down and - order! If you can't,

:45:12.:45:16.

don't shake your head at me! If you can't, leave the chamber.

:45:16.:45:23.

Leave the studio, Andrew, John Bercow - calling Phillip

:45:23.:45:25.

Hammond incompetent and Ian Liddle-Grainger stupid - amongst

:45:25.:45:29.

others. So what do MPs think of his robust style in the House? Rob

:45:29.:45:34.

Wilson is the Conservative MP for Reading East. What do you think?

:45:35.:45:38.

Yesterday I think it was a high point because I think he did the

:45:38.:45:41.

right thing, he said it in a way that was not too angry and to

:45:41.:45:46.

robust. Generally, there is a suspicion with John Bercow that he

:45:46.:45:50.

fails to have a balanced and unbiased view of the house. In the

:45:50.:45:54.

sense that he takes on Conservative MPs and ministers to a greater

:45:54.:46:00.

degree than he does Labour shadow ministers and MPs. Is that just your

:46:00.:46:08.

view sitting there as an MP? You have any evidence? I produce a six

:46:08.:46:11.

monthly survey which clearly shows that John Bercow has intervened in a

:46:11.:46:17.

quite robust way on Conservative is about 65% of the time, when we only

:46:17.:46:23.

have about 46, 40 5% of the MPs. He does so to a much less degree with

:46:23.:46:31.

Labour MPs. There is a record to look at. Melanie, are you a fan of

:46:31.:46:37.

the speaker? Not really, my impression has been that he shows

:46:37.:46:41.

partisan ship towards the Labour side. Also, the extract that you

:46:41.:46:47.

showed showed him breaking members of Parliament for being excitable.

:46:47.:46:51.

One of my problems with him is that he is very excitable. He seems to

:46:51.:46:58.

sort of lose it very often, and this does not do well for the speaker's

:46:58.:47:04.

whole stature. The speaker should be above the fray. The great speakers

:47:04.:47:10.

in my experience, Speaker Thomas and Betty Boothroyd sale Serena Leon.

:47:10.:47:17.

You never felt that Betty Boothroyd was scrapping in the benches --

:47:17.:47:25.

serenely on. John Bercow does try to champion the backbenchers. Has he

:47:25.:47:31.

not modernised it? He has taken control, perhaps you don't like the

:47:32.:47:37.

style but he has done rather a lot for Parliament. He has changed since

:47:37.:47:42.

2010 when the new government came in. He uses urgent questions a lot

:47:42.:47:47.

more since then, to hold the government to account. A massive

:47:47.:47:50.

increase in urgent questions which is difficult for the government to

:47:50.:47:53.

deal with. You ask yourself, why didn't he do that when he first came

:47:54.:48:00.

in? All right, but getting ministers to come to the house and demanding

:48:00.:48:05.

answers in principle, is a good thing. It is and many backbenchers

:48:05.:48:09.

welcome that. He has made changes that benefit backbenchers to that

:48:09.:48:16.

extent. Sometimes you get the feeling that the wave of

:48:16.:48:18.

unpopularity on the Conservative benches is that they are obsessed

:48:18.:48:23.

about this idea that he is biased, rather than what he's doing in terms

:48:23.:48:28.

of his role for the house. I think if he is partisan, that is a very

:48:28.:48:32.

significant reason why it people would not take kindly to him. The

:48:32.:48:38.

fact is coming in May well have done some very good things in terms of

:48:38.:48:40.

Parliamentary procedure, I am prepared to give him all credit for

:48:40.:48:45.

that. But is this going to be one of the great speakers of our time? I

:48:45.:48:51.

think the answer is no. He does have the potential to be a great speaker,

:48:51.:48:55.

he is very articulate, able and bright. The way he puts things can

:48:55.:49:00.

be very credible. But I think he lets himself down obviously with his

:49:00.:49:06.

temper. Do you think the public think this is the kind of speaker

:49:06.:49:10.

they want? I don't think the public view the speaker in one way or

:49:10.:49:14.

another, I think they look on Parliament as a bear pit of

:49:14.:49:21.

uncivilised, out-of-control, making noises to each other and are

:49:21.:49:26.

irrelevant to the lives and prosperity of ordinary people.

:49:26.:49:32.

the speaker trying to combat that? think Melanie is watching the odd

:49:32.:49:35.

big debate and prime ministers questions but most of the time it is

:49:35.:49:40.

perfectly civil and people debate in a civil way. You could have fooled

:49:40.:49:49.

It will be an unusual evening in Westminster tonight - not least

:49:49.:49:52.

because a large number of MPs will actually still be here on a Thursday

:49:53.:49:56.

night - but also because a number of Conservatives are having a barbecue

:49:56.:50:00.

with the Prime Minister at Number ten. Is it an end of term party? No,

:50:00.:50:03.

it's all a bit of a Tory Party bonding session ahead of a Private

:50:03.:50:06.

Members' Bill. James Wharton MP will bring his Europe Referendum Bill to

:50:06.:50:10.

the Commons on Friday, but why him? And why are Tories so keen on it?

:50:10.:50:13.

Giles has been following the action, and the MP from the start.

:50:13.:50:18.

Every year Parliament has a lottery. The backbench winner doesn't get

:50:18.:50:23.

money, but the prize is influence and a chance to change the law.

:50:23.:50:25.

Welcome to the world of Private Members Bills, and in a

:50:26.:50:34.

controversial twist, this year the draw was done in reverse order.

:50:34.:50:44.
:50:44.:50:59.

but not least and the winner of the it was drawn, I was leaving my flat

:50:59.:51:03.

in London to go back to the constituency on expectation of

:51:03.:51:07.

anything exciting happening that day. I got a phone call from the BBC

:51:07.:51:11.

as it happens and be present at, congratulations, you have come top

:51:11.:51:15.

of the private member 's ballot. I won't repeat what I said but it made

:51:15.:51:20.

my feelings quite clear. I realised then, my phone began to ring off the

:51:20.:51:24.

hook. Because anyone topping the bill gets instantaneously offered

:51:24.:51:30.

advice on what to take on, whether they want it or not. A very busy

:51:30.:51:33.

morning of TV and radio interview started which only stopped about

:51:33.:51:42.

midday, when David Beckham announced he was retiring. But bend how you

:51:42.:51:46.

will, this year any Tory who won was going to be asked to take on one

:51:46.:51:50.

thing - a Europe referendum. Once you have, the next thing then is to

:51:50.:51:53.

find sponsors for your bill. There will be a list of sponsors and a

:51:53.:51:55.

good range of sponsors with some senior parliamentarians throwing

:51:55.:52:00.

their weight behind the bill. I hope that will be enough weight to

:52:00.:52:04.

support the Conservative party to take it through. I am grateful for

:52:04.:52:08.

what he says and I would urge all colleagues to come to vote for this

:52:08.:52:15.

bill. Be under no illusions this is the Conservative Party making PR

:52:15.:52:18.

trying to do a number of jobs to draw a clear line between themselves

:52:18.:52:21.

and the Lib Dems on Europe, and hoping to embarrass Labour into

:52:21.:52:25.

whether they would commit to a such a vote. The PM wanted to sponsor the

:52:25.:52:28.

vote but he can't. Any ministerial involvement would make it Government

:52:28.:52:31.

business. What's rather odd is that when the bill has it's first reading

:52:31.:52:34.

it's called a dummy bill. All we need to present is the dummy pill

:52:35.:52:41.

which shows the indication of what we want to bring forward. European

:52:41.:52:50.

Union referendum Bill. Friday the 5th of July, the whip was

:52:50.:52:56.

interfering a little. More on whips in a minute but meanwhile, one

:52:56.:52:58.

backbencher has been getting creative - she sees the Referendum

:52:58.:53:02.

Bill as a badge of honour. I have been making badges, I am one of the

:53:02.:53:06.

12 sponsors of the bill. This is something that we can deliver as

:53:06.:53:11.

backbenchers. If my e-mail inbox is anything to go by, it is certainly

:53:11.:53:20.

something that the British people want. It's a feeling that has

:53:20.:53:23.

galvanised Conservatives to get on board and it never hurts to get some

:53:23.:53:26.

last minute guidance from a former whip. I think work with everyone,

:53:26.:53:28.

don't just work with the usual suspects on both sides of the

:53:28.:53:32.

argument. Look beyond what is happening on Friday as well. Most

:53:32.:53:36.

people probably think it is done and dusted on Friday. In many ways, it

:53:37.:53:41.

is the start of the process. It will very much set the tone for how

:53:41.:53:47.

things go forward. I would personally avoid getting too many

:53:47.:53:50.

amendments, ones that look too supportive in later stages. You

:53:51.:53:55.

don't want to get this bill hijacked. I think it was a smart

:53:55.:53:58.

move not just accepting the bill as it was, picking sure it was your

:53:58.:54:04.

bill rather than just the government's bill. -- making sure.

:54:04.:54:07.

And there's one last ploy, given MPs have left Westminster by Friday.

:54:07.:54:10.

Have a party the night before to persuade colleagues to stay. Make

:54:10.:54:14.

sure people don't drink too much the night before because it could go

:54:14.:54:19.

very badly wrong the next morning. Drinking too much in Westminster?

:54:19.:54:23.

That will never happen. I'm now joined from Brussels by the

:54:23.:54:29.

Conservative MEP James Elles. You talk about, it is time to say enough

:54:29.:54:32.

is enough and that the remaining pro-Europeans in the Conservative

:54:32.:54:39.

party should stand up and be counted. How many of them are you?

:54:39.:54:45.

Judging by a poll in the open Europe a few days back, when it was asked

:54:45.:54:48.

how many people would like to vote in favour of the status crawl across

:54:48.:54:53.

the country, they said 37 in favour and 47 against. -- the status quo.

:54:53.:55:02.

When you look at the conservatives who make up the 47%, it said 39%

:55:02.:55:05.

would be Conservative supporting the status quo. I think there are many

:55:05.:55:10.

more conservative voters who would be happy to vote for remaining in

:55:10.:55:16.

the European Union without going into renegotiation or repatriations.

:55:16.:55:22.

What percentage of the Conservative Parliamentary party do you think

:55:22.:55:29.

have your views on Europe? I think very few, there are not that many in

:55:29.:55:33.

the European Parliament either but it does not stop the European

:55:33.:55:35.

parliamentarians saying what he believes in and what many of his

:55:35.:55:41.

people and supporters say to me, as they were last weekend. Are you a

:55:41.:55:46.

dying breed, a pro-European Conservative? I think it has been a

:55:46.:55:50.

bit like red squirrels being chased out of the woods by the grey

:55:50.:55:55.

squirrels. I think the red ones will come back because for time it will

:55:55.:55:59.

be appreciated. We have been through an extremely difficult economic

:55:59.:56:06.

situation. A lot have been able to make a lot of capital. If you look

:56:06.:56:10.

at the bitch and of where our country should be and with who we

:56:10.:56:15.

should be, I think ying in the European Union will still appeal to

:56:15.:56:20.

the majority of the British people -- I think being in the European

:56:20.:56:26.

Union. Is the Conservative party now explicitly Eurosceptic and James

:56:26.:56:35.

else is in extremely -- James Elles is in an extreme minority? I think

:56:35.:56:37.

it reflects a large proportion, probably the majority of

:56:37.:56:42.

Conservative voters. As for the public in general, it is a close

:56:42.:56:50.

call. I am baffled about this bill. What everyone thinks about the

:56:50.:56:53.

necessity or desirability of a referendum, as far as I understand

:56:53.:56:57.

it, this bill has minimal chance of getting through because the Lib Dems

:56:57.:57:01.

would be against it. Even if it did get through, legal advice is it will

:57:01.:57:04.

not buy into the next Parliament anyway. I am confused as to whether

:57:04.:57:10.

this is not anything more than a PR stunt -- will not bind the next

:57:10.:57:16.

Parliament. Would you vote for a referendum Bill, would you vote for

:57:16.:57:24.

repatriation of powers back to London? I would be in favour of a

:57:24.:57:28.

referendum because I think it has been shown in Ireland and Denmark,

:57:28.:57:32.

where they have had similar anti-European movements, they have

:57:32.:57:36.

had votes at every stage of the changes in the treaties. Euro

:57:36.:57:43.

scepticism is less in both of those countries, so we need a referendum.

:57:43.:57:46.

The Irish were forced to have the referendum again because it does not

:57:46.:57:52.

suit Brussels. Nothing is normal in Ireland, you would probably say. If

:57:52.:57:55.

you look at our case, we need and in out referendum. I would be happier

:57:55.:58:04.

to have that attached to the changes in the treaties. When there is a

:58:04.:58:06.

significant change in the constitutional management of our

:58:06.:58:11.

country. We had it in 1995 and because we haven't had it since

:58:11.:58:15.

then, whatever government has been in power, there has been an enormous

:58:15.:58:20.

amount of frustration and people want their say. Will you stand for

:58:20.:58:26.

election again next? I won't be, but I would like to touch on something

:58:26.:58:30.

millennium has said, the nature of this debate. If it were -- Melanie

:58:30.:58:35.

has said. If it were the referendum would cure our economic ills, that

:58:35.:58:39.

would be an important issue. But if you look at the problems we have in

:58:39.:58:42.

infrastructure investment or the way many factoring industry has

:58:42.:58:46.

disappeared, these are not things which are European questions.

:58:46.:58:49.

have to stop there, thank you for joining us.

:58:49.:58:52.

That's all for today. Thanks to our guests. The One O'clock News is

:58:53.:58:56.

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