20/09/2013 Daily Politics


Similar Content

Browse content similar to 20/09/2013. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!



That alone. Welcome to the Daily Politics. Gordon Brown's chief spin


doctor reveals the dark arts that Brownites used to bring down there


Blairite enemies. Revelations have been timed to cause maximum damage.


They come on the eve of the Labour conference after Ed Miliband has had


a miserable summer and Labour have slumped in the polls.


It is Nigel Farage's turn to take to the stage as UKIP hold their


conference. There are new policies but also negative headlines as the


party comes under greater scrutiny. And never deprive a German of his


sausage. How the humble wurst has become a big issue in Sunday's


federal elections. That is coming up in the next hour.


Public service broadcasting at its finest. With us for the duration,


Hugo Rifkind of the Spectator and Carla Buzasi of the Huffington Post.


Let us start, where? I know, Damian McBride. He was Gordon Brown's spin


doctor at the Treasury and then at Number Ten before being forced to


resign in disgrace in 2009 over e-mails discussing possible smear


stories about Tory ministers. But he had done plenty of smearing on his


own before that. In his book, had done plenty of smearing on his


serialised in the Daily Mail today, he lays bare the dark arts he


employed at the heart of Gordon Brown's political operation. He


admits that he already had: Setting out to destroy any potential


rival to Gordon Brown becoming Prime Minister. One rival was John Reid.


Mr McBride says that he unearthed his black book of stories about John


Reid from the 80s and the early 90s, and fed them to the press until


John Reid announced that he would be resigning. At which point, Damian


McBride was told that he could call off the dogs now. With another


rival, Charles clerk, Esther McBride claims that he briefed from a


confidential and restricted documents to orchestrate what looked


like a briefing war. A junior minister, Ivan Lewis, stood up to


this worrying to this -- stood up to this bullying from Mr McBride but he


decided he was going to get an iron fist in return. He proceeded to leak


a story to the press about Mr Lewis's supposed pestering of a


female civil servant. He says: On whether Gordon Brown knew or


approved of his behaviour, Damien McBride says:


Joining us now is Lance Price, who worked at Number Ten on the other


side, that is with Tony Blair. And in a moment, we will join Hilary


Benn two. What did you make of this? In terms of the allegations, what is


interesting is that Damian McBride has fessed up and said that he was


doing this. We knew that this was going on. Most journalists in West


Minister knew that it was going on because they were at the recipients


of this stuff. But now we have it confirmed on the question is whether


or not the Labour Party can know that it was in the past and we have


learned our lessons. It was a terrible period that damaged


everybody and politics has changed. He says he was sucked in like a


concubine at an or G. Did that happen to you? Did that happen at


Number Ten? I think it is a metaphor. There was bitterness on


both sides but it was not six of one and half a dozen of the other.


Although people are reluctant to believe it, the fact is that Tony


Blair had less reason to indulge in this because he had already got the


job. He was the Prime Minister. And he had Alistair Campbell doing his


work. But he did not get up to this kind of stuff. Let's go to Hilary


Benn, in our Leeds studio. Welcome to the Daily Politics. Good


afternoon. It turns out that it was Labour who were the nasty party, not


the Tories. If you are referring to Damian McBride's book, this is the


past, and we have changed. We are a different party now, with a


different leadership. Think this is a postscript on what happened


before. It is not really relevant. How do we know that you have changed


when Miliband and Ed Balls were at the heart of the project when this


was going on? Whatever happened in the past happened in the past. Under


Ed Miliband, we are a different party. Frankly, my constituents in


Leeds, people looking forward to the Labour Party conference that is


coming up, they are not interested in that. They want to know, giving


the crisis that they are dealing with day in and day out, whose side


are the major political parties on. And they think the dividing line in


British politics is becoming very clear. We have a Prime Minister who


thinks that tax cuts for the unions is the most important thing, while


imposing increased costs on people on low incomes. And Ed Miliband is


about helping the squeezed middle, ring back the 10p rate of tax,


finding jobs for young people who are unemployed long-term. Those are


the big issues and debates in British politics. I think voters


want to know about the morality of the people that they are electing.


And this is about a Prime Minister who employed Damian McBride, who


constantly lectured us on his moral compass. And yet we see that under


his watch, he unleashes the most terrible smears, not against the


Tories, but against his own side. We have a right to know and discuss and


talk about that when politicians posture about the moral positions. I


talk about that when politicians am not interested in posturing. In


the past, what has happened has been written about by just about


everyone. It is only a few years ago, Hilary Benn. It is not Benjamin


Disraeli. Some of what happened was pretty an edifying but it is a poor


script on the past. We are looking for to the conference. --


postscript. The concerns of the British people are not what you are


getting excited about. It is about what is happening in their lives


now. For 38 of the 39 months that David Cameron has been Prime


Minister, wages have not gone up as much as prices. People are finding


it very tough. What are they are longing to hear from political


leaders is that this is how a future Labour government is going to help


you. That is what we will be focusing on. I will come onto that


in a minute but you keep saying the House changed. We have no evidence


for that. It is the same gang running it, who were at the heart of


this operation when Mr McBride was spreading his poison. And we now


know that Ed Miliband was Gordon Brown's anointed successor. He is


the one that he wanted. So why do we know that things have changed? How


do we know that this sort of stuff, this amoral approach to your own


side, is not still going on? For the simple reason that you read the same


newspapers I've read. You do not find any of that in the last few


years. -- Irene. Ed Miliband is a new leader and this is a new party.


We have learned from the lessons of the past. The truth is, you know


that to be the case as much as I do. Have you ever been briefed against


by Damian McBride? Have no idea what he did in relation to me. And I am


not interested. -- I have no idea. At the time, I was getting on with


my job, which is what ministers do. What's the shadow cabinet is focused


on now is what will we do to help the country recover. I'll understand


entirely why you want to ask these questions because some people get


very excited about this, what is the past and not about the politics of


the future. -- but it is the past. Excited is the wrong word. Express


than dismayed that this could be happening at the heart of our


politics, among people who we are paying to run the country. Our tax


dollars pay these people's salaries. Instead of using it to make a better


country, they use it to rubbish their own side. Before I come onto


the conference next week, are we seriously expected to believe that


neither Mr Brown, nor Mr Miliband, nor Mr Ed Balls new that any of this


was going on? -- knew. As they understand it, that is what Damian


McBride says. In the end, you lost his job. -- as I understand it. But


that was a long time ago. He only lost it because he was rumbled. He


could have carried on. He wanted to do to the Tories what he had been


doing to his own side for years. This could not come at a worse time


for you. Indeed, the run-up to the conference is a shambles. The


opinion poll ratings have collapsed, you are barely ahead of the Tories


now. Despite this squeeze on living standards. Only 2% of the country


regard Ed Miliband as a natural leader. And now we have all this


stuff dragged up from the past to remind us what you were like in


power. It is hard to think of a grim backdrop for the conference. --


grimmer. At you what is -- I tell you what is grim. Life for ordinary


people. That is what is grim. People are going to be asking themselves


the question, insofar as they follow the details of party conferences,


they will be saying to themselves, which party leader or government


that we lacked in 2015 is going to be on our side. That is the


fundamental choice. The Prime Minister, the coalition, has shot


itself to be on the side of the few also honestly, you could not ask for


better example than the decision to cut taxes for millionaires and those


who are most well-off. But they are still paying more tax in the 13


years -- than in the 13 years you were in power. They are paying 45%,


more than when you were in government. That is not correct. We


introduced the 50p tax rate. In the final three weeks of the government.


It is ridiculous. In the final three weeks. it is a fact. The reason we


did that is because of the state of the economy. If you believe that


those with the broadest shoulders could bear the biggest burden, as


the Prime Minister claims, well, we believe that and that is why we


introduced that tax rate. And he comes in and he says, given what is


going on, the most important thing for the budget in April is that we


are going to cut that top rate of tax. And what are we talking about?


Reintroducing the 10p tax rate, hopping young people, the long-term


unemployed, get a job, helping with energy prices. -- helping young


people. And think it is on those issues that people will make their


judgement at the next election. It is interesting that you want a tax


on people who are working hard, who are adding to the wealth of the


nation and jobs. You want to take 50% of their income away, but people


nation and jobs. You want to take like you, who are wealthy because


you have got lots of wealthy assets, you do not pay the 50p tax rate. And


you are not creating jobs. And you are not adding to the wealth of the


nation. Is that there? I am not sure what your point is. -- is that


fair. In government, we felt that the 50p tax rate was the thing to


do. We opposed the decision that the government took to cut that tax


rate, as they did in April. At a time when lots and lots of other


people, working very hard, contributed to the economy, are


themselves being squeezed. -- contributing to. That is a sign of


the government's values. The fact that we say we would do things


differently is a clear difference. My final question, the recovery is


barely underway. As you say, lots of people have yet to feel it. Yet


already the Tories are neck and neck with you in the polls. What happens


when, as the OECD is predicting, the economy is heading for 3% growth?


What happens to poll ratings then? The poll that matters is the next


election. I have never heard that phrase before(!) The thing to do is


what Ed Miliband is doing, which is to set out what it is we believe in.


And we are the party that is concerned about the squeeze on


living standards. The question is, how is the recovery going to be


shared? Are we going to learn the lessons from what happened over the


last 20 or 30 years? Ed Miliband has shown that he is the leader who


understands that and you will see that very clearly in what he has to


say next week and in the debates that we shall have at the


conference, which I'm looking forward to. I think of nothing else.


It is keeping me awake at night with excitement(!) Get some rest. The


giver joining us. -- thank you for joining us. What are the


applications, the political fallout of these revelations?


It makes the general population not trust politicians. They are worrying


journalists are being spoon-fed by spin doctors, no analysis is going


on. So, who do you trust? It is a precarious position.


When we reported these sorts of things, not in that detail, when we


reported that the Tony Blair-Gordon Brown relationship was toxic, other


than the voters, the Cabinet ministers, there was the claim that


we were making it up. This book is fascinating. Most


political memoirs are about settling scores. He has revealed all his


crimes. Hilary Benn is right when he talked about this being in the past.


The monster has one. All the targets have gone, Charles Clarke, John


Reid, David Miliband... You have a Labour Party dominated by Brownites.


To be fair to Alan Lewis, he is in the Shadow Cabinet. He is one of the


survivors. What do you think? It surely beggars


belief that Mr Brown didn't know this was going on. Gordon Brown was


an avid reader of newspapers. He would always ask where stories came


from and it was patently obvious. Obvious to everybody. Gordon Brown


cannot claim not to have known what was going on, frankly, neither can


Ed Balls nor Ed Miliband. But, they knew what Damian McBride was up to


Ed Balls nor Ed Miliband. But, they and what was going on with the


Ed Balls nor Ed Miliband. But, they media. Whether they approved or not,


they were complicit. Art, the party has changed. You agree with Hilary


Benn? If you think about how divisive the leadership election


was, that could have resulted in a rerun of the whole thing, and it


hasn't. They have been less divided after that defeat.


hasn't. They have been less divided It is always good to talk to you.


Are you ready for the German election? That's right, Germans go


to the polls on Sunday to decide whether to re-elect Frau Merkel as


Chancellor. Haven't been following it all in Die Zeit or Der Spiegel?


Don't worry, here's your cut out and keep guide.


Germany, the most populous country in Europe, the richest and most


powerful. It has ? parts of Europe and is essential to driving it out


of recession. That's why the election results matter a lot.


Angela Merkel has been at the helm for eight years and wants another


go. In that time, the economy has boomed, unemployment has tumbled,


Germany has become a magnet for job seekers. Opponents say the


Chancellor is reaping the benefits of tough labour reforms brought in


before she even came to power. Now, she is imposing those same reforms


on other countries, despite in parts of Europe where she is blamed for


austerity. But admired by many Germans largely for the same reason,


which is why the polls say she will win again. Except it is not that


simple, German politics is about consensus, and Angela Merkel's


conservative Democrats will need a Conservative partner. She has


conservative Democrats will need a already been through a couple. That


coalition didn't get on. Then the liberal free Democrats, but again


the attraction faded fast. So, who could it be this time? The Liberals


again would be the closest match. Their boat has dropped so much they


might not even make it into Parliament. If that fails, what


about the social Democrats? They want a minimum wage, bad for


productivity things Mrs Merkel. Order Green Party which was to take


meat from the menu in work canteens one day a week. Too bossy, says the


Chancellor. What they really want is to win enough votes to go into


government together and push Angela Merkel off her perch.


There you go, everything you need to know in time for the German election


results which will get on Sunday. Joining us now from Berlin is Sudha


David-Wilp, an expert at the think-tank the German Marshall Fund.


It seems clear that Mrs Merkel is likely to stay as Chancellor. What


we don't know yet is with whom she will be in coalition. What's the


latest thinking? That is exactly right. As your


commentator mentioned, there are probably two choices for Chancellor


Merkel. She is leading in the polls against peer Steinbruck from the


opposition SDP, but she has two form a coalition government after Sunday.


The two choices are the FTP, the current government, but they may not


garner enough of the vote to form a majority with Angela Merkel and her


party. Or a grand coalition, a repeat of 2005.


What is the attraction of German voters to Chancellor Merkel? She is,


as I understand, Steinbruck, the Labour equivalent, hasn't really cut


through in this election. Mrs Merkel is the dominant figure in German


politics. Why? I think you are absolutely right,


the dominant figure in German politics and also in Europe, very


well admired across the Atlantic in the united states for example. She


just gives off this aura of calm and Germany is also doing very well,


compared to its neighbours. When you look at economic indicators. Germany


is looking the best it has been in 20 years in terms of unemployment,


for example. So... We seem to have lost our


picture there from Germany. We are back. I am sorry, we lost you a


little there. A number of decisions... We are glad we have got


little there. A number of you back. A number of decisions have


been put on hold this election, decisions which will affect Germany


and the rest of Europe. Assuming, in some form, Mrs Merkel remains


Chancellor, what happens after that? Yes, like any election, this


campaign has been about domestic issues. For example, minimum wage,


childcare opportunities, pension plans. Suddenly, the world is asking


about the Euro crisis and Germany's role in the middle east.


I am sorry, we seem to have some trouble with that line in Berlin.


I'm afraid we seem to have lost it all together which is disappointing,


such an interesting election taking place in Germany. And it will have


implications for us. If Mrs Merkel forms a collision with the Free


Democrats, they are a little bit more Eurosceptic. If she forms it


with the social Democrats, they are even more pro-European than Mrs


Merkel and her Christian Democrats. David Cameron is desperately hoping


it is the first coalition. She has David Cameron is desperately hoping


already hinted that she is in the market to talk about devolving some


powers that the EU has taken, this is what David Cameron wants, what


UKIP once, and does seem to be what the population as a whole head is


keen on having in a referendum. Lots of people think this.


A terribly dull campaign, probably the consequence of a rich and


prosperous largely satisfied country.


It all boils down ultimately to what the German vision of Europe turns


out to be. Merkel 's judgement by the desire to preserve the European


Union. Whether that means... She has talked about giving some powers


back. It may be Germany finally needs to embrace a looser union.


There are indications that is the road she would like to go down. If


the coalitions with the CSU and Free Democrats, the free-market party,


she may well be able to accommodate. But, if she has two form a grand


coalition with the social Democrats, which you can't rule out, if the


Free Democrats don't get any seats, the social Democrats will not let


her do that. the social Democrats will not let


The current thought in Germany is changing a lot. Germany is becoming


more sceptical of free movement. And the bruising experience of a


financial crisis, the German commitment to the Euro. German money


going everywhere else. A Eurosceptic pushing for a government means and


easier selling point. There is a Eurosceptic party. The


German UKIP. Although it is rather different from UKIP.


For me, I think it is important we have a woman leading the country. In


this day and age, the fact we have only one household female name is


leading a nation, for that reason alone. I think the Norwegians have a


female Prime Minister. I couldn't tell you the name. We will get to


know her. After the Lib Dems, and before


Labour head to Brighton, UKIP are in London this weekend for their


conference. Just months shy of Euro elections, they hope to come first


in and, on the back of good local election results, they are in good


mood. In a moment, we'll bring highlights of party leader Nigel


Farage's conference speech. But a summer of having to defend some


members, and expel others, has taken some wind from their sails, and a


number of UKIPers have told this programme there's a distinct sense


of "where next?" For the party. As they celebrate 20 years in


existence, Giles Dilnot has sent them a birthday message.


Well, well, well, I UKIP, 20 years old. A lot to celebrate,


particularly when you think how it all started.


The 1990s were tough, is small party considered little more than a


pressure group, with very few, well, one rising star, and the look


and sound of parameters on parade. In political terms, toddlers who


fell down, had tantrums and had embarrassing relatives. But now...


You have become grown-ups in a grown-up world playing grown-up


politics. There's a lot to be excited about, a lot to look forward


to. Hoping to toast electoral victory in next year 's European


elections, after decent poll ratings, local election success, a


press pack keen to follow, a leader who seems like a bloke you can drink


with, and conferences that don't look like parish hall jamborees.


Just a little word from the wise. Like a lot of 20-year-olds, you


still have some maturing to do, you are still a bit amateur and


unprofessional. There are still some growing up to be done. Some will


gather at this hotel and if you are reflecting the leadership needs to


gather at this hotel and if you are change the party further. Be less


dictatorial, allow internal transparency, get rid of the last


vestiges of amateurism. Loyal bonuses -- voices accept that.


It will take some time, because, if bonuses -- voices accept that.


you imagine yourself like a small or medium-sized company, we have grown


tremendously, our market share has increased, our membership. Now you


have membership and management used to the old ways. You can start along


whether you will gain more market share. I think there are those in


the party who recognised that. Those who do not. There are tensions which


are accepted in all political parties. Eventually they will


dissipate as we see that we have got to look to the future. What a number


of party members want is open debate about future policy in areas UKIP


has ignored. To that end, they have produced a policy discussion


document. In producing this pamphlet of a UKIP vision, the idea is to


give alternative voices that chance to push out policy. And I hope what


it will do is to start to excite the membership across the party to start


writing in to ourselves and give us more ideas. In that way we will


become a more radical party with radical ideas but again with other


voices out there representing different parts of the party.


Otherwise the public will seek as remaining as a 20-year-old party.


Having rattled the grown-up cages, that 20-year-old is also getting a


kicking from the big boys. How UKIP handles that may determine how it


makes it. Joining us now from Birmingham is


Mike Nattrass who was a UKIP MEP but left the party and now sits in the


European Parliament as an independent.


Mike, what is it about UKIP that every now and then you will keep


leaving the party and forming your own one-man band?


I am not a one-man band, I am sitting in the European Parliament.


For other MEPs left before I did. As you will know. That is my point.


Including the chairman who wrote the manifesto and got no credit for it.


I am a previous chairman and previous deputy leader. It's about


control, excessive control. We need democracy in a party. More than one


person steering policy. But also, we need fairness. The way the


membership is now treated in my mind isn't fair. The way for example they


are pretending they are having an election for European Parliament


candidates is just not true actually. The whole thing is


gerrymandered. Lets face it, Nigel is a great front


man. He thinks well on his feet and he is a great chap, but having said


that, you cannot have a one-man party making all the rules. I'm not


sure that Nigel is a good leader from that point of view. He is not


fair. He likes to set around with his own people, drinking mates, just


mates, and that is not how you run a party. Shooting mates? They go


hunting and that sort of thing. You were deselected from UKIP as an


incumbent MEP because you failed the tests that have been set out. What


are these tests? It is nonsense because they did not fail. That is


the excuse they give. The tests that I'd took were a hustings where we


speak in front of the local members, and secondly, an interview that took


place between three of them and one of me. As far as I am concerned, it


was three headman. It was the chairman, a 22-year-old who reports


to him, and a guy who sat at Nigel Farage's bedside after he had the


aeroplane crash. All of these people have come to the party well after


me. I have been there since the 1990s. They have no idea who like


was. -- they had no idea who lie was. Why have been a hard-working


MEP. Ask the local members. If the local members had had that vote, I


would be top of the poll in the West Midlands. Shooting and headman. It


sounds are dangerous interest rate. They are. I am sorry to phrase it


like that. They must be doing something right because the Tory


membership was 230,000 in 2005. UKIP has gone from 15,020 ten to 31,000


now. -- 15,000 in 2010. I'm told that more people were UKIP


conference and at the Lib Dem conference. I am not surprised


because we have the right policies. I am not against the policies. I am


against totalitarianism. Remember, under the previously dirt, we had


the same number of MEPs. He did a good job for the party and Nigel


took over. He has done very well but he should not get all of the glory.


There's been a lot of work done to get where we are. I have had 1100


press hit in the last 12 months. I have been indifferent 1100 times.


Isn't it the case that all insurgent parties, on the left or the right,


protest parties that are trying to become more than that, they all


require a figure like Nigel Farage, and it is always built around a cult


of the personality, isn't it? Most times, possibly. This is not a


pressure group. We have policies with a different flavour. We want to


trade with the world. We do not think that Europe can contain our


economy and allow us to grow correctly. We need overseas markets.


And we see that Europe is stopping that growth rather than helping it.


UKIP has always said that arrived from day one. We do not want to be


contained by Europe. -- right from day one. Instead Churchill said,


give me the choice between Europe and the open sea and I will always


choose the open sea. I think he was and the open sea and I will always


head of the Navy at the time. -- Winston Churchill. And you have


joined the English Democrats? I haven't. The English Democrats say


that you were involved in the drafting of their press release


announcing that you had joined the English Democrats. I was doing due


diligence with that party. Various people were talking to me and one of


them did that release. They asked me to look at it and I've corrected it


because I thought it was too rambling and long. And now, it did


say draft on it and it was not to be released, but it was released. And I


had not finished doing due diligence. I was asking about the


track records of some of their members and they still have not got


that information. Let them get on with their own but I am not with


them, thank you. But you might join? I am not joining. If you are


helping to draft a press release that announces you are joining, you


must be considering joining them! It was in preparation for me to join


and the due diligence at not finished. As far as I'm concerned,


it didn't. And that is it. Is that you have fallen out with them before


you have joined? The press release was far too long and I thought we


had to amend it. I've changed it to make sure it said draft. It was


subject to due diligence. I get the feeling that you should just stay as


a one-man band. Stay on your own. You have fallen out with UKIP and


the endless Democrats. Stay on your own as the David Nattrass party. I


have not followed with UKIP. They are good people. The giver joining


us. We will hear a bit about Nigel Farage's speech in a moment. Give me


your 32nd thoughts. The moral of the programme is the Independent, don't


go into any party. I think this time last year, UKIP had one journalist


at the conference. Now it is over 1200. -- over 100. But we are all


talking about them and look at the airtime they are getting. Every


paper is covering what are talking about. Does that translate to votes?


It is unlikely. But the significance of UKIP is that they could, as the


Ashcroft poll showed, cause mayhem without winning a single seat. The


less people know about them, the more they want to vote for them. I


am in chanted and amazed by the extent to which they reinforce their


message, the idea that Europe is this stance place that rules over --


distant place that rules over us. And then they let these people,


making these huge salaries, who represent us. There is a strong


temptation to sneer at the amateurism and provincialism of it.


And we will see Nigel Farage doing his speech and we want to imagine


that the audience is full of men in tin hats with spikes on them and


monocles. Nothing drives people into their arms than the likes of me


sitting in a studio sneering at them, so why try not to, but it is


difficult. I think you just did. That is another 20 members they have


got. While we're being on air, Nigel Farage been giving -- has been


giving his keynote speech. Let's listen to him. We have been on the


March four 20 long years. There have been many failures and many


disappointments, many ups and downs. Lots of leaflets delivered. And over


the years, many deposits lost. And, of course, we have been roundly


abused and laughed that and mocked and derided. But despite that, over


the last 18 months, something remarkable is happening. And we are


now changing the face of British politics. 's -- by the end of this


election, we will have the third-highest membership of any


party in this country. Our opponents are appalled and the commentators


are stunned and amazed. In eight months, we have the European


elections and many council elections. We will be fielding sets


of candidates in both. We intend to put up thousands of candidates for


local elections with a big emphasis and a big push in London where the


local seats are up for grabs. And I'm not going to take anything for


granted. But I think we might do quite well next year. My ambition


and conviction is that we can come first, across the United Kingdom, in


those European elections, and cause an earthquake in British politics.


When we launched this party, only 17% of the British people


When we launched this party, only that we should leave the European


Union. Today, that figure is 67%. The British social attitudes survey


shows that Britain is moving in UKIP's direction. But it is not just


doing that on the question of the UKIP's direction. But it is not just


European Union, vital though that is. They are doing it on many areas


European Union, vital though that of our national life. On welfare. It


is clear that the benefits system should be there for the needy and


not bear as a lifestyle choice. -- not there. On education, we are the


only party that actually believes in social mobility. All the rest of


them have effectively pulled the ladder up. From people from poor


backgrounds in our big cities in particular. UKIP champion the idea


that we need selective education and grammar schools. Once again, we are


changing the debate. And, yes, on immigration, we have certainly


changed the debate on immigration. This is a debate that, I think, is


vital. It is the most important, biggest question facing our


country, urgently. And it affects everything, the NHS, our broader


economy, Primary School places, public services. And yet the


establishment have done everything they can to close down debate on


this issue and to decry anybody that dares to discuss the issue as being


bad and racist. And we will not have dares to discuss the issue as being


that. This issue must be debated. We have been here for 20 years. Some


people keep asking, what is UKIP now? First, you are talking about


the European question and then you talk about immigration and the


grammar schools. I'm going to attempt to redefine what UKIP is.


With this card. UKIP is a freethinking, egalitarian party,


opposed to racism and extremism. UKIP is dedicated to liberty and


equality under the law, and the aspirations of the British people.


We will always act in the interests of the British nation, especially on


immigration, employment, energy supply and fisheries. We know that


only by leaving the European Union can we regain control of our


borders, Parliament, democracy and our ability to trade freely with the


fastest-growing economies in the world. A referendum to allow the


country to decide this matter will create the greatest opportunity for


national renewal in our lifetimes. That is my definition of UKIP. Nigel


Farage, a few minutes ago. Norman Smith joins us. He was listening to


the UKIP leader. Give us your impressions. Yellow macro it was


interesting that apart from saying he expected UKIP to win the European


elections, gave no predictions about getting any seats at Westminster.


Instead, his pitch is that we are changing the face of British


politics. He means that they might not win any seats but they are


driving public opinion and they are driving the other parties to adopt


policies which are more akin to their own. Obviously, on Europe, we


have seen David Cameron promised a referendum in a few years and Nigel


Farage saying there that UKIP would do the same before the next


election. He said that UKIP were driving the debate that he was


appalled by how right wing David Cameron and Nick Clegg were on


immigration. And even on Syria. He suggested that because UKIP was


opposed to intervention in Syria, that had intimidated some Tory MPs


who he said were more frightened of UKIP voters than of the whips. In a


way, suggesting that it was UKIP that resulted in David Cameron


losing their vote in the Commons. His pitch now seems to be, don't


inspect us to win many seats but look at the influence and impact


that we can have. And is it true that there are more delegates at


this conference than there were at the Lib Dems conference? Getting


close to it. They are saying that there are around 1500 people here.


It is certainly the biggest they have had. To be honest, they arrive


on a roll. Why was struck that there was quite a lot of the speech


devoted to Europe. You might say was quite a lot of the speech


that is not a pricing but when we were told that one of the main aims


of this conference was to flag up the diversity of policies they have


on a range of issues, from the health service to housing to


schools, still the core purpose of this party is to get out of Europe,


which Nigel Farage believes will lead to a moment of national


renewal. For all the other political windowdressing, which we have had


around other policies, there is no getting away from it. What motivates


people here, what they are totally about is getting out of Europe.


Let's talk now to UKIP's deputy leader Paul Nuttall.


Welcome to the Daily Politics, thanks for joining us. Tell me this,


come the general election in 2015, What would be a good result for


UKIP? We are still talking about this, it


is all down to ourselves. We have to keep up the momentum, crucially, I


think, is the 5000 seats up for election, if we can take seats,


maybe we can replicate the Lib Dems and take seats in the general


election from a base of local government.


As things look at the moment, from the Ashcroft poll which came out


earlier this week, in those seats where the Conservatives are a bit


ahead of Labour, the main impact you would have is taking votes from the


Tories and let Labour in, although you won't win any seats yourself.


So, voting UKIP, but get Ed Miliband.


Please don't fall into this Westminster bubble media chap. --


trap. Look at our by-election results come in the North of


England, we finish consistently second to Labour, polling as much as


26% of the votes, taking a proportion from Labour, some from


the Lib Dems. We are taking votes from people who have not voted in


the past 20 years. You seem to have a permanent problem


with some of your MEPs. Periodically, they seem to walk


out. Is this because UKIP is really a one-man band, and Mr Farage has


slightly dictatorial tendencies? No, basically, we have tightened up


the process. I hope it is not a one-man band. Otherwise I might as


well get back electioneering again. Look, we have tightened up our


process this time around. We have gone through the most stringent


test, probably of all the political parties, for our MEPs. If some have


fallen by the wayside, that is hard luck. What we will do is, I think,


we will send more MEPs back to Brussels next year on May 22 than


any of the political parties put together. To ensure that, we have to


get the process right. Is this a feature of all insurgent


parties, you fall out with each other at some stage? You have just


lost Mike Nattrass, then Nicky Sinclair who has founded her own


party. And Marta Anderson, a leading UKIP light, she has joined the


Tories. What is the story here? Hang on. The Conservatives lost one


to the Lib Dems, we gained one from the Tories. People lose


politicians, that happens. We are a young party, only 20 years old this


week. Young parties go through growing pains. I can assure you


now, next time it will be different, the people we get in the


European Parliament next time around will be solid good people who will


take the cause of wit -ish withdrawal forward and they won't be


leaving UKIP. If it's still the case that getting


out of the European Union is your raison d'etre chap, that you have


other policies, but it -- you wouldn't exist otherwise?


The party would not have been formed otherwise. UKIP was born to get us


out of the European Union and we have been successful in driving


public opinion. When the party was formed, only 60% of people believed


Britain would be better outside the EU. It is now in the late 60s. We


have been successful. We have to broaden our agenda. Talking earlier


about the Ashcroft poll, there was another poll by the same noble Lord


with people flocking to UKIP on another poll by the same noble Lord


immigration and crime as well. You talked about giving great


scrutiny to who would be standing for you but are you sure? If you


were to scrutinise Nigel Farage you might not let him stand, given what


seemed to be his hard right attitudes when he was at Dulwich


public school? Andrew, come on, this is a nonstory.


We are talking about what went on in his school days. If you listened to


the headmaster and deputy head, they say something can piggy different


than one far left teacher who has an axe to grind against Nigel. It's not


really a story. If this is the best that the media can do, then, it is a


pretty sorry state. So you can assure us today that you have purged


your ranks of the hard right, racist, a liberal tendency, correct?


-- illiberal. When I became chairman, the party


had been infiltrated. We dealt with that. Since then, we have had a


blanket ban on anybody who has ever been a member of a far right party.


We are the only political party in this country with that land. The


Labour Party has elected councillors who have crossed the floor from the


BNP. We do not have a problem with the far right in our party.


But you are overwhelmingly white, and strongly male. You are almost as


white and male as the Lib Dems! I agree with you, I genuinely


believe that UKIP needs to change that perception. I agree we are too


white and middle-class and mail which is why I hope the list next


time for the European elections includes a more eclectic bunch of


people. If UKIP wants to move forward, we have to be


representative of society as a whole. A final question.


You have said to me before and again, that you are going to win the


European elections next year and come far -- come first with most


votes. Are you sure you are right to set the bar that high? It can only


disappoint, can it not? Why not? It could become a


self-fulfilling possibly -- prophecy. If Cameron doesn't bring


forward a referendum and if the other parties do not offer a


referendum, we will make next year the 20 14th European elections in


referendum you never had. That is why we have a great opportunity of


winning. Hugo, let me come to you. Mr Cameron


doesn't seem to have a UKIP strategy yet, a way of dealing with UKIP,


which is clearly a huge threat to him. It is difficult for him because


which is clearly a huge threat to he does not know which angle to go


at them from. UKIP say they are more than a Europe party. The issue of


equal marriage, particularly older conservative voters have flocked to


UKIP because they have so disliked that idea. Anyway, it shows the


tension that UKIP has. You could almost call it a dishonesty, Nigel


Farage saying they are a almost call it a dishonesty, Nigel


liberty, was about the liberty to cross borders, for a man to marry a


man. It is not liberty at all. A difficult thing for the Tories to


fight against, particularly using rhetoric like that. A great many


natural Tory voters would agree with UKIP.


An interesting development in British politics.


If the Lib Dem conference wasn't your thing, and you've tuned out


from politics for the last seven days, here's the week in 60 seconds.


It was Lib Dem conference week and whilst much of the talk was about


whether Vince Cable were torn up to support the economic policy, Ed


Davey was having problems with wind power. You have been marked by a


Daily Politics poster. Nick Clegg try to prove there was


such a thing as a free lunch, at least the schoolchildren. But after


all that healthy fruit, he went and ruined it with a trip to the tuck


shop. It was revealed MPs had made a string of complaints about the food


in the House of Commons. Including raw fish, and an inadequate supply


of vintage wine. David Cameron came out in favour of Spurs fans who want


to carry on calling them the Yid army. And we learned that Eric


Pickles has personalised ring phone -- ringtones.


Let us not forget that there was a Lib Dem conference this week. It


finished on Wednesday afternoon. How would you sum it up, how does Mr


Clegg and his party come out? Nick Clegg came out of it pretty


well, he sounded confident. Re-establishing who he is and what


he stands for. The party overall, I don't think people were hugely


interested. There wasn't a huge turnout of people. It almost doesn't


matter what happens because they are going to be in a position of power


at the time of the next election. If there is a hung parliament. And you


are part of a growing consensus. You, I understand, writing Nick


Clegg's diary for the newspaper? I am going to focus on Nick Clegg. I


disagree. His speech reminded me of what John Major said Neil Kinnock,


he doesn't know what he wants to stay so he has way of saying it.


They are in a weird position, they can't do anything. The whole purpose


of the Lib Dems being in this parliament is to show that coalition


government can work. So they cannot do anything to destroy the


coalition. Their major achievement will be to stay there so they can do


it again. You can't bring it down by letting your principles get in the


way. They do need to position themselves.


Which is why he is saying he stuck up for...


That's all for today. Thanks to our guests. The one o'clock news is


starting on BBC One. I'll be back on BBC One on Sunday with the Sunday


Politics with Labour's Rachel Reeves, Conservative Party chairman


Grant Shapps, and the results of an exclusive survey of Labour


councillors. Do join me then. Bye-bye.


Download Subtitles