20/09/2013 Daily Politics


20/09/2013

Andrew Neil with the latest political stories, including coverage of the UKIP conference and revelations of Labour infighting involving Tony Blair and Gordon Brown.


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That alone. Welcome to the Daily Politics. Gordon Brown's chief spin

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doctor reveals the dark arts that Brownites used to bring down there

:00:49.:00:55.

Blairite enemies. Revelations have been timed to cause maximum damage.

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They come on the eve of the Labour conference after Ed Miliband has had

:00:58.:01:01.

a miserable summer and Labour have slumped in the polls.

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It is Nigel Farage's turn to take to the stage as UKIP hold their

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conference. There are new policies but also negative headlines as the

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party comes under greater scrutiny. And never deprive a German of his

:01:15.:01:21.

sausage. How the humble wurst has become a big issue in Sunday's

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federal elections. That is coming up in the next hour.

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Public service broadcasting at its finest. With us for the duration,

:01:37.:01:43.

Hugo Rifkind of the Spectator and Carla Buzasi of the Huffington Post.

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Let us start, where? I know, Damian McBride. He was Gordon Brown's spin

:01:48.:01:54.

doctor at the Treasury and then at Number Ten before being forced to

:01:54.:01:59.

resign in disgrace in 2009 over e-mails discussing possible smear

:01:59.:02:04.

stories about Tory ministers. But he had done plenty of smearing on his

:02:04.:02:05.

own before that. In his book, had done plenty of smearing on his

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serialised in the Daily Mail today, he lays bare the dark arts he

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employed at the heart of Gordon Brown's political operation. He

:02:14.:02:20.

admits that he already had: Setting out to destroy any potential

:02:20.:02:36.

rival to Gordon Brown becoming Prime Minister. One rival was John Reid.

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Mr McBride says that he unearthed his black book of stories about John

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Reid from the 80s and the early 90s, and fed them to the press until

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John Reid announced that he would be resigning. At which point, Damian

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McBride was told that he could call off the dogs now. With another

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rival, Charles clerk, Esther McBride claims that he briefed from a

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confidential and restricted documents to orchestrate what looked

:03:04.:03:07.

like a briefing war. A junior minister, Ivan Lewis, stood up to

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this worrying to this -- stood up to this bullying from Mr McBride but he

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decided he was going to get an iron fist in return. He proceeded to leak

:03:19.:03:24.

a story to the press about Mr Lewis's supposed pestering of a

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female civil servant. He says: On whether Gordon Brown knew or

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approved of his behaviour, Damien McBride says:

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Joining us now is Lance Price, who worked at Number Ten on the other

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side, that is with Tony Blair. And in a moment, we will join Hilary

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Benn two. What did you make of this? In terms of the allegations, what is

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interesting is that Damian McBride has fessed up and said that he was

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doing this. We knew that this was going on. Most journalists in West

:04:16.:04:20.

Minister knew that it was going on because they were at the recipients

:04:20.:04:24.

of this stuff. But now we have it confirmed on the question is whether

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or not the Labour Party can know that it was in the past and we have

:04:29.:04:32.

learned our lessons. It was a terrible period that damaged

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everybody and politics has changed. He says he was sucked in like a

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concubine at an or G. Did that happen to you? Did that happen at

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Number Ten? I think it is a metaphor. There was bitterness on

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both sides but it was not six of one and half a dozen of the other.

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Although people are reluctant to believe it, the fact is that Tony

:04:57.:05:02.

Blair had less reason to indulge in this because he had already got the

:05:02.:05:08.

job. He was the Prime Minister. And he had Alistair Campbell doing his

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work. But he did not get up to this kind of stuff. Let's go to Hilary

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Benn, in our Leeds studio. Welcome to the Daily Politics. Good

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afternoon. It turns out that it was Labour who were the nasty party, not

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the Tories. If you are referring to Damian McBride's book, this is the

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past, and we have changed. We are a different party now, with a

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different leadership. Think this is a postscript on what happened

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before. It is not really relevant. How do we know that you have changed

:05:52.:05:56.

when Miliband and Ed Balls were at the heart of the project when this

:05:56.:05:59.

was going on? Whatever happened in the past happened in the past. Under

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Ed Miliband, we are a different party. Frankly, my constituents in

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Leeds, people looking forward to the Labour Party conference that is

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coming up, they are not interested in that. They want to know, giving

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the crisis that they are dealing with day in and day out, whose side

:06:16.:06:21.

are the major political parties on. And they think the dividing line in

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British politics is becoming very clear. We have a Prime Minister who

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thinks that tax cuts for the unions is the most important thing, while

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imposing increased costs on people on low incomes. And Ed Miliband is

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about helping the squeezed middle, ring back the 10p rate of tax,

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finding jobs for young people who are unemployed long-term. Those are

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the big issues and debates in British politics. I think voters

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want to know about the morality of the people that they are electing.

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And this is about a Prime Minister who employed Damian McBride, who

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constantly lectured us on his moral compass. And yet we see that under

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his watch, he unleashes the most terrible smears, not against the

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Tories, but against his own side. We have a right to know and discuss and

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talk about that when politicians posture about the moral positions. I

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talk about that when politicians am not interested in posturing. In

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the past, what has happened has been written about by just about

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everyone. It is only a few years ago, Hilary Benn. It is not Benjamin

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Disraeli. Some of what happened was pretty an edifying but it is a poor

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script on the past. We are looking for to the conference. --

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postscript. The concerns of the British people are not what you are

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getting excited about. It is about what is happening in their lives

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now. For 38 of the 39 months that David Cameron has been Prime

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Minister, wages have not gone up as much as prices. People are finding

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it very tough. What are they are longing to hear from political

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leaders is that this is how a future Labour government is going to help

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you. That is what we will be focusing on. I will come onto that

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in a minute but you keep saying the House changed. We have no evidence

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for that. It is the same gang running it, who were at the heart of

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this operation when Mr McBride was spreading his poison. And we now

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know that Ed Miliband was Gordon Brown's anointed successor. He is

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the one that he wanted. So why do we know that things have changed? How

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do we know that this sort of stuff, this amoral approach to your own

:08:37.:08:42.

side, is not still going on? For the simple reason that you read the same

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newspapers I've read. You do not find any of that in the last few

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years. -- Irene. Ed Miliband is a new leader and this is a new party.

:08:54.:08:58.

We have learned from the lessons of the past. The truth is, you know

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that to be the case as much as I do. Have you ever been briefed against

:09:04.:09:08.

by Damian McBride? Have no idea what he did in relation to me. And I am

:09:08.:09:13.

not interested. -- I have no idea. At the time, I was getting on with

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my job, which is what ministers do. What's the shadow cabinet is focused

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on now is what will we do to help the country recover. I'll understand

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entirely why you want to ask these questions because some people get

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very excited about this, what is the past and not about the politics of

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the future. -- but it is the past. Excited is the wrong word. Express

:09:41.:09:43.

than dismayed that this could be happening at the heart of our

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politics, among people who we are paying to run the country. Our tax

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dollars pay these people's salaries. Instead of using it to make a better

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country, they use it to rubbish their own side. Before I come onto

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the conference next week, are we seriously expected to believe that

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neither Mr Brown, nor Mr Miliband, nor Mr Ed Balls new that any of this

:10:10.:10:24.

was going on? -- knew. As they understand it, that is what Damian

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McBride says. In the end, you lost his job. -- as I understand it. But

:10:28.:10:36.

that was a long time ago. He only lost it because he was rumbled. He

:10:36.:10:40.

could have carried on. He wanted to do to the Tories what he had been

:10:40.:10:45.

doing to his own side for years. This could not come at a worse time

:10:45.:10:49.

for you. Indeed, the run-up to the conference is a shambles. The

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opinion poll ratings have collapsed, you are barely ahead of the Tories

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now. Despite this squeeze on living standards. Only 2% of the country

:10:57.:11:02.

regard Ed Miliband as a natural leader. And now we have all this

:11:02.:11:08.

stuff dragged up from the past to remind us what you were like in

:11:08.:11:12.

power. It is hard to think of a grim backdrop for the conference. --

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grimmer. At you what is -- I tell you what is grim. Life for ordinary

:11:25.:11:31.

people. That is what is grim. People are going to be asking themselves

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the question, insofar as they follow the details of party conferences,

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they will be saying to themselves, which party leader or government

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that we lacked in 2015 is going to be on our side. That is the

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fundamental choice. The Prime Minister, the coalition, has shot

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itself to be on the side of the few also honestly, you could not ask for

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better example than the decision to cut taxes for millionaires and those

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who are most well-off. But they are still paying more tax in the 13

:12:05.:12:13.

years -- than in the 13 years you were in power. They are paying 45%,

:12:13.:12:16.

more than when you were in government. That is not correct. We

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introduced the 50p tax rate. In the final three weeks of the government.

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It is ridiculous. In the final three weeks. it is a fact. The reason we

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did that is because of the state of the economy. If you believe that

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those with the broadest shoulders could bear the biggest burden, as

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the Prime Minister claims, well, we believe that and that is why we

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introduced that tax rate. And he comes in and he says, given what is

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going on, the most important thing for the budget in April is that we

:12:48.:12:52.

are going to cut that top rate of tax. And what are we talking about?

:12:52.:12:55.

Reintroducing the 10p tax rate, hopping young people, the long-term

:12:55.:13:03.

unemployed, get a job, helping with energy prices. -- helping young

:13:03.:13:08.

people. And think it is on those issues that people will make their

:13:08.:13:13.

judgement at the next election. It is interesting that you want a tax

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on people who are working hard, who are adding to the wealth of the

:13:17.:13:21.

nation and jobs. You want to take 50% of their income away, but people

:13:21.:13:24.

nation and jobs. You want to take like you, who are wealthy because

:13:24.:13:28.

you have got lots of wealthy assets, you do not pay the 50p tax rate. And

:13:28.:13:33.

you are not creating jobs. And you are not adding to the wealth of the

:13:33.:13:38.

nation. Is that there? I am not sure what your point is. -- is that

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fair. In government, we felt that the 50p tax rate was the thing to

:13:43.:13:48.

do. We opposed the decision that the government took to cut that tax

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rate, as they did in April. At a time when lots and lots of other

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people, working very hard, contributed to the economy, are

:13:57.:14:00.

themselves being squeezed. -- contributing to. That is a sign of

:14:00.:14:06.

the government's values. The fact that we say we would do things

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differently is a clear difference. My final question, the recovery is

:14:10.:14:16.

barely underway. As you say, lots of people have yet to feel it. Yet

:14:16.:14:20.

already the Tories are neck and neck with you in the polls. What happens

:14:20.:14:26.

when, as the OECD is predicting, the economy is heading for 3% growth?

:14:26.:14:33.

What happens to poll ratings then? The poll that matters is the next

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election. I have never heard that phrase before(!) The thing to do is

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what Ed Miliband is doing, which is to set out what it is we believe in.

:14:48.:14:53.

And we are the party that is concerned about the squeeze on

:14:53.:14:56.

living standards. The question is, how is the recovery going to be

:14:56.:15:00.

shared? Are we going to learn the lessons from what happened over the

:15:00.:15:04.

last 20 or 30 years? Ed Miliband has shown that he is the leader who

:15:04.:15:07.

understands that and you will see that very clearly in what he has to

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say next week and in the debates that we shall have at the

:15:11.:15:13.

conference, which I'm looking forward to. I think of nothing else.

:15:13.:15:23.

It is keeping me awake at night with excitement(!) Get some rest. The

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giver joining us. -- thank you for joining us. What are the

:15:30.:15:32.

applications, the political fallout of these revelations?

:15:32.:15:39.

It makes the general population not trust politicians. They are worrying

:15:39.:15:47.

journalists are being spoon-fed by spin doctors, no analysis is going

:15:48.:15:54.

on. So, who do you trust? It is a precarious position.

:15:54.:15:57.

When we reported these sorts of things, not in that detail, when we

:15:57.:16:06.

reported that the Tony Blair-Gordon Brown relationship was toxic, other

:16:06.:16:10.

than the voters, the Cabinet ministers, there was the claim that

:16:10.:16:22.

we were making it up. This book is fascinating. Most

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political memoirs are about settling scores. He has revealed all his

:16:27.:16:33.

crimes. Hilary Benn is right when he talked about this being in the past.

:16:34.:16:41.

The monster has one. All the targets have gone, Charles Clarke, John

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Reid, David Miliband... You have a Labour Party dominated by Brownites.

:16:52.:17:04.

To be fair to Alan Lewis, he is in the Shadow Cabinet. He is one of the

:17:04.:17:08.

survivors. What do you think? It surely beggars

:17:08.:17:16.

belief that Mr Brown didn't know this was going on. Gordon Brown was

:17:16.:17:21.

an avid reader of newspapers. He would always ask where stories came

:17:21.:17:26.

from and it was patently obvious. Obvious to everybody. Gordon Brown

:17:26.:17:33.

cannot claim not to have known what was going on, frankly, neither can

:17:33.:17:44.

Ed Balls nor Ed Miliband. But, they knew what Damian McBride was up to

:17:44.:17:48.

Ed Balls nor Ed Miliband. But, they and what was going on with the

:17:48.:17:50.

Ed Balls nor Ed Miliband. But, they media. Whether they approved or not,

:17:50.:17:56.

they were complicit. Art, the party has changed. You agree with Hilary

:17:56.:18:02.

Benn? If you think about how divisive the leadership election

:18:02.:18:06.

was, that could have resulted in a rerun of the whole thing, and it

:18:06.:18:12.

hasn't. They have been less divided after that defeat.

:18:12.:18:17.

hasn't. They have been less divided It is always good to talk to you.

:18:17.:18:20.

Are you ready for the German election? That's right, Germans go

:18:20.:18:25.

to the polls on Sunday to decide whether to re-elect Frau Merkel as

:18:25.:18:30.

Chancellor. Haven't been following it all in Die Zeit or Der Spiegel?

:18:30.:18:34.

Don't worry, here's your cut out and keep guide.

:18:34.:18:49.

Germany, the most populous country in Europe, the richest and most

:18:49.:18:56.

powerful. It has ? parts of Europe and is essential to driving it out

:18:56.:18:59.

of recession. That's why the election results matter a lot.

:18:59.:19:04.

Angela Merkel has been at the helm for eight years and wants another

:19:04.:19:10.

go. In that time, the economy has boomed, unemployment has tumbled,

:19:10.:19:14.

Germany has become a magnet for job seekers. Opponents say the

:19:14.:19:18.

Chancellor is reaping the benefits of tough labour reforms brought in

:19:18.:19:22.

before she even came to power. Now, she is imposing those same reforms

:19:22.:19:27.

on other countries, despite in parts of Europe where she is blamed for

:19:27.:19:33.

austerity. But admired by many Germans largely for the same reason,

:19:33.:19:37.

which is why the polls say she will win again. Except it is not that

:19:37.:19:42.

simple, German politics is about consensus, and Angela Merkel's

:19:42.:19:49.

conservative Democrats will need a Conservative partner. She has

:19:49.:19:51.

conservative Democrats will need a already been through a couple. That

:19:51.:19:58.

coalition didn't get on. Then the liberal free Democrats, but again

:19:58.:20:03.

the attraction faded fast. So, who could it be this time? The Liberals

:20:03.:20:08.

again would be the closest match. Their boat has dropped so much they

:20:08.:20:11.

might not even make it into Parliament. If that fails, what

:20:11.:20:17.

about the social Democrats? They want a minimum wage, bad for

:20:17.:20:21.

productivity things Mrs Merkel. Order Green Party which was to take

:20:21.:20:26.

meat from the menu in work canteens one day a week. Too bossy, says the

:20:26.:20:32.

Chancellor. What they really want is to win enough votes to go into

:20:32.:20:36.

government together and push Angela Merkel off her perch.

:20:36.:20:44.

There you go, everything you need to know in time for the German election

:20:44.:20:49.

results which will get on Sunday. Joining us now from Berlin is Sudha

:20:49.:20:53.

David-Wilp, an expert at the think-tank the German Marshall Fund.

:20:53.:21:03.

It seems clear that Mrs Merkel is likely to stay as Chancellor. What

:21:03.:21:08.

we don't know yet is with whom she will be in coalition. What's the

:21:08.:21:13.

latest thinking? That is exactly right. As your

:21:13.:21:17.

commentator mentioned, there are probably two choices for Chancellor

:21:17.:21:23.

Merkel. She is leading in the polls against peer Steinbruck from the

:21:23.:21:27.

opposition SDP, but she has two form a coalition government after Sunday.

:21:27.:21:32.

The two choices are the FTP, the current government, but they may not

:21:33.:21:38.

garner enough of the vote to form a majority with Angela Merkel and her

:21:38.:21:45.

party. Or a grand coalition, a repeat of 2005.

:21:45.:21:49.

What is the attraction of German voters to Chancellor Merkel? She is,

:21:49.:21:56.

as I understand, Steinbruck, the Labour equivalent, hasn't really cut

:21:56.:22:00.

through in this election. Mrs Merkel is the dominant figure in German

:22:00.:22:04.

politics. Why? I think you are absolutely right,

:22:04.:22:08.

the dominant figure in German politics and also in Europe, very

:22:08.:22:13.

well admired across the Atlantic in the united states for example. She

:22:13.:22:19.

just gives off this aura of calm and Germany is also doing very well,

:22:19.:22:25.

compared to its neighbours. When you look at economic indicators. Germany

:22:25.:22:29.

is looking the best it has been in 20 years in terms of unemployment,

:22:29.:22:34.

for example. So... We seem to have lost our

:22:34.:22:40.

picture there from Germany. We are back. I am sorry, we lost you a

:22:40.:22:47.

little there. A number of decisions... We are glad we have got

:22:47.:22:49.

little there. A number of you back. A number of decisions have

:22:49.:22:55.

been put on hold this election, decisions which will affect Germany

:22:55.:22:59.

and the rest of Europe. Assuming, in some form, Mrs Merkel remains

:22:59.:23:05.

Chancellor, what happens after that? Yes, like any election, this

:23:05.:23:10.

campaign has been about domestic issues. For example, minimum wage,

:23:10.:23:16.

childcare opportunities, pension plans. Suddenly, the world is asking

:23:16.:23:22.

about the Euro crisis and Germany's role in the middle east.

:23:22.:23:32.

I am sorry, we seem to have some trouble with that line in Berlin.

:23:32.:23:37.

I'm afraid we seem to have lost it all together which is disappointing,

:23:37.:23:41.

such an interesting election taking place in Germany. And it will have

:23:41.:23:48.

implications for us. If Mrs Merkel forms a collision with the Free

:23:48.:23:53.

Democrats, they are a little bit more Eurosceptic. If she forms it

:23:53.:23:58.

with the social Democrats, they are even more pro-European than Mrs

:23:58.:24:04.

Merkel and her Christian Democrats. David Cameron is desperately hoping

:24:04.:24:06.

it is the first coalition. She has David Cameron is desperately hoping

:24:06.:24:12.

already hinted that she is in the market to talk about devolving some

:24:12.:24:17.

powers that the EU has taken, this is what David Cameron wants, what

:24:17.:24:22.

UKIP once, and does seem to be what the population as a whole head is

:24:22.:24:26.

keen on having in a referendum. Lots of people think this.

:24:26.:24:34.

A terribly dull campaign, probably the consequence of a rich and

:24:34.:24:36.

prosperous largely satisfied country.

:24:36.:24:43.

It all boils down ultimately to what the German vision of Europe turns

:24:43.:24:49.

out to be. Merkel 's judgement by the desire to preserve the European

:24:49.:24:53.

Union. Whether that means... She has talked about giving some powers

:24:53.:24:58.

back. It may be Germany finally needs to embrace a looser union.

:24:58.:25:03.

There are indications that is the road she would like to go down. If

:25:03.:25:09.

the coalitions with the CSU and Free Democrats, the free-market party,

:25:09.:25:15.

she may well be able to accommodate. But, if she has two form a grand

:25:15.:25:20.

coalition with the social Democrats, which you can't rule out, if the

:25:20.:25:24.

Free Democrats don't get any seats, the social Democrats will not let

:25:24.:25:26.

her do that. the social Democrats will not let

:25:26.:25:31.

The current thought in Germany is changing a lot. Germany is becoming

:25:31.:25:38.

more sceptical of free movement. And the bruising experience of a

:25:38.:25:41.

financial crisis, the German commitment to the Euro. German money

:25:41.:25:48.

going everywhere else. A Eurosceptic pushing for a government means and

:25:48.:25:57.

easier selling point. There is a Eurosceptic party. The

:25:57.:26:01.

German UKIP. Although it is rather different from UKIP.

:26:01.:26:09.

For me, I think it is important we have a woman leading the country. In

:26:09.:26:15.

this day and age, the fact we have only one household female name is

:26:15.:26:18.

leading a nation, for that reason alone. I think the Norwegians have a

:26:18.:26:25.

female Prime Minister. I couldn't tell you the name. We will get to

:26:25.:26:30.

know her. After the Lib Dems, and before

:26:30.:26:34.

Labour head to Brighton, UKIP are in London this weekend for their

:26:34.:26:37.

conference. Just months shy of Euro elections, they hope to come first

:26:37.:26:41.

in and, on the back of good local election results, they are in good

:26:41.:26:45.

mood. In a moment, we'll bring highlights of party leader Nigel

:26:45.:26:49.

Farage's conference speech. But a summer of having to defend some

:26:49.:26:53.

members, and expel others, has taken some wind from their sails, and a

:26:53.:26:56.

number of UKIPers have told this programme there's a distinct sense

:26:56.:27:01.

of "where next?" For the party. As they celebrate 20 years in

:27:01.:27:04.

existence, Giles Dilnot has sent them a birthday message.

:27:04.:27:20.

Well, well, well, I UKIP, 20 years old. A lot to celebrate,

:27:20.:27:27.

particularly when you think how it all started.

:27:27.:27:34.

The 1990s were tough, is small party considered little more than a

:27:34.:27:37.

pressure group, with very few, well, one rising star, and the look

:27:37.:27:43.

and sound of parameters on parade. In political terms, toddlers who

:27:43.:27:48.

fell down, had tantrums and had embarrassing relatives. But now...

:27:48.:27:53.

You have become grown-ups in a grown-up world playing grown-up

:27:53.:27:56.

politics. There's a lot to be excited about, a lot to look forward

:27:56.:28:00.

to. Hoping to toast electoral victory in next year 's European

:28:00.:28:04.

elections, after decent poll ratings, local election success, a

:28:04.:28:09.

press pack keen to follow, a leader who seems like a bloke you can drink

:28:09.:28:13.

with, and conferences that don't look like parish hall jamborees.

:28:13.:28:17.

Just a little word from the wise. Like a lot of 20-year-olds, you

:28:17.:28:26.

still have some maturing to do, you are still a bit amateur and

:28:26.:28:28.

unprofessional. There are still some growing up to be done. Some will

:28:28.:28:31.

gather at this hotel and if you are reflecting the leadership needs to

:28:31.:28:32.

gather at this hotel and if you are change the party further. Be less

:28:32.:28:41.

dictatorial, allow internal transparency, get rid of the last

:28:41.:28:49.

vestiges of amateurism. Loyal bonuses -- voices accept that.

:28:49.:28:51.

It will take some time, because, if bonuses -- voices accept that.

:28:51.:28:57.

you imagine yourself like a small or medium-sized company, we have grown

:28:57.:29:02.

tremendously, our market share has increased, our membership. Now you

:29:02.:29:08.

have membership and management used to the old ways. You can start along

:29:08.:29:11.

whether you will gain more market share. I think there are those in

:29:11.:29:19.

the party who recognised that. Those who do not. There are tensions which

:29:19.:29:24.

are accepted in all political parties. Eventually they will

:29:24.:29:28.

dissipate as we see that we have got to look to the future. What a number

:29:28.:29:33.

of party members want is open debate about future policy in areas UKIP

:29:33.:29:38.

has ignored. To that end, they have produced a policy discussion

:29:38.:29:42.

document. In producing this pamphlet of a UKIP vision, the idea is to

:29:42.:29:49.

give alternative voices that chance to push out policy. And I hope what

:29:49.:29:54.

it will do is to start to excite the membership across the party to start

:29:54.:29:59.

writing in to ourselves and give us more ideas. In that way we will

:29:59.:30:05.

become a more radical party with radical ideas but again with other

:30:05.:30:08.

voices out there representing different parts of the party.

:30:08.:30:13.

Otherwise the public will seek as remaining as a 20-year-old party.

:30:13.:30:17.

Having rattled the grown-up cages, that 20-year-old is also getting a

:30:17.:30:22.

kicking from the big boys. How UKIP handles that may determine how it

:30:23.:30:24.

makes it. Joining us now from Birmingham is

:30:24.:30:30.

Mike Nattrass who was a UKIP MEP but left the party and now sits in the

:30:30.:30:33.

European Parliament as an independent.

:30:33.:30:41.

Mike, what is it about UKIP that every now and then you will keep

:30:41.:30:45.

leaving the party and forming your own one-man band?

:30:45.:30:50.

I am not a one-man band, I am sitting in the European Parliament.

:30:50.:30:56.

For other MEPs left before I did. As you will know. That is my point.

:30:56.:31:02.

Including the chairman who wrote the manifesto and got no credit for it.

:31:02.:31:07.

I am a previous chairman and previous deputy leader. It's about

:31:07.:31:13.

control, excessive control. We need democracy in a party. More than one

:31:13.:31:19.

person steering policy. But also, we need fairness. The way the

:31:19.:31:23.

membership is now treated in my mind isn't fair. The way for example they

:31:23.:31:29.

are pretending they are having an election for European Parliament

:31:29.:31:33.

candidates is just not true actually. The whole thing is

:31:33.:31:35.

gerrymandered. Lets face it, Nigel is a great front

:31:35.:31:50.

man. He thinks well on his feet and he is a great chap, but having said

:31:51.:31:56.

that, you cannot have a one-man party making all the rules. I'm not

:31:56.:31:59.

sure that Nigel is a good leader from that point of view. He is not

:31:59.:32:07.

fair. He likes to set around with his own people, drinking mates, just

:32:07.:32:10.

mates, and that is not how you run a party. Shooting mates? They go

:32:10.:32:22.

hunting and that sort of thing. You were deselected from UKIP as an

:32:22.:32:25.

incumbent MEP because you failed the tests that have been set out. What

:32:25.:32:31.

are these tests? It is nonsense because they did not fail. That is

:32:31.:32:34.

the excuse they give. The tests that I'd took were a hustings where we

:32:34.:32:45.

speak in front of the local members, and secondly, an interview that took

:32:45.:32:49.

place between three of them and one of me. As far as I am concerned, it

:32:49.:32:53.

was three headman. It was the chairman, a 22-year-old who reports

:32:53.:33:01.

to him, and a guy who sat at Nigel Farage's bedside after he had the

:33:01.:33:04.

aeroplane crash. All of these people have come to the party well after

:33:05.:33:09.

me. I have been there since the 1990s. They have no idea who like

:33:09.:33:15.

was. -- they had no idea who lie was. Why have been a hard-working

:33:15.:33:20.

MEP. Ask the local members. If the local members had had that vote, I

:33:20.:33:24.

would be top of the poll in the West Midlands. Shooting and headman. It

:33:24.:33:30.

sounds are dangerous interest rate. They are. I am sorry to phrase it

:33:30.:33:34.

like that. They must be doing something right because the Tory

:33:34.:33:43.

membership was 230,000 in 2005. UKIP has gone from 15,020 ten to 31,000

:33:43.:33:53.

now. -- 15,000 in 2010. I'm told that more people were UKIP

:33:53.:33:56.

conference and at the Lib Dem conference. I am not surprised

:33:56.:33:59.

because we have the right policies. I am not against the policies. I am

:33:59.:34:06.

against totalitarianism. Remember, under the previously dirt, we had

:34:06.:34:10.

the same number of MEPs. He did a good job for the party and Nigel

:34:10.:34:14.

took over. He has done very well but he should not get all of the glory.

:34:14.:34:21.

There's been a lot of work done to get where we are. I have had 1100

:34:21.:34:27.

press hit in the last 12 months. I have been indifferent 1100 times.

:34:27.:34:32.

Isn't it the case that all insurgent parties, on the left or the right,

:34:32.:34:37.

protest parties that are trying to become more than that, they all

:34:37.:34:44.

require a figure like Nigel Farage, and it is always built around a cult

:34:44.:34:48.

of the personality, isn't it? Most times, possibly. This is not a

:34:48.:34:52.

pressure group. We have policies with a different flavour. We want to

:34:53.:34:58.

trade with the world. We do not think that Europe can contain our

:34:58.:35:01.

economy and allow us to grow correctly. We need overseas markets.

:35:01.:35:05.

And we see that Europe is stopping that growth rather than helping it.

:35:05.:35:12.

UKIP has always said that arrived from day one. We do not want to be

:35:12.:35:16.

contained by Europe. -- right from day one. Instead Churchill said,

:35:16.:35:20.

give me the choice between Europe and the open sea and I will always

:35:20.:35:22.

choose the open sea. I think he was and the open sea and I will always

:35:22.:35:27.

head of the Navy at the time. -- Winston Churchill. And you have

:35:27.:35:35.

joined the English Democrats? I haven't. The English Democrats say

:35:35.:35:40.

that you were involved in the drafting of their press release

:35:40.:35:45.

announcing that you had joined the English Democrats. I was doing due

:35:45.:35:50.

diligence with that party. Various people were talking to me and one of

:35:50.:35:54.

them did that release. They asked me to look at it and I've corrected it

:35:54.:35:57.

because I thought it was too rambling and long. And now, it did

:35:57.:36:03.

say draft on it and it was not to be released, but it was released. And I

:36:03.:36:07.

had not finished doing due diligence. I was asking about the

:36:07.:36:10.

track records of some of their members and they still have not got

:36:10.:36:14.

that information. Let them get on with their own but I am not with

:36:14.:36:19.

them, thank you. But you might join? I am not joining. If you are

:36:19.:36:23.

helping to draft a press release that announces you are joining, you

:36:23.:36:29.

must be considering joining them! It was in preparation for me to join

:36:29.:36:33.

and the due diligence at not finished. As far as I'm concerned,

:36:33.:36:39.

it didn't. And that is it. Is that you have fallen out with them before

:36:39.:36:43.

you have joined? The press release was far too long and I thought we

:36:43.:36:47.

had to amend it. I've changed it to make sure it said draft. It was

:36:47.:36:53.

subject to due diligence. I get the feeling that you should just stay as

:36:53.:36:57.

a one-man band. Stay on your own. You have fallen out with UKIP and

:36:57.:37:04.

the endless Democrats. Stay on your own as the David Nattrass party. I

:37:04.:37:11.

have not followed with UKIP. They are good people. The giver joining

:37:11.:37:16.

us. We will hear a bit about Nigel Farage's speech in a moment. Give me

:37:16.:37:25.

your 32nd thoughts. The moral of the programme is the Independent, don't

:37:25.:37:31.

go into any party. I think this time last year, UKIP had one journalist

:37:32.:37:35.

at the conference. Now it is over 1200. -- over 100. But we are all

:37:35.:37:43.

talking about them and look at the airtime they are getting. Every

:37:43.:37:46.

paper is covering what are talking about. Does that translate to votes?

:37:46.:37:54.

It is unlikely. But the significance of UKIP is that they could, as the

:37:54.:37:59.

Ashcroft poll showed, cause mayhem without winning a single seat. The

:37:59.:38:05.

less people know about them, the more they want to vote for them. I

:38:05.:38:09.

am in chanted and amazed by the extent to which they reinforce their

:38:09.:38:11.

message, the idea that Europe is this stance place that rules over --

:38:11.:38:20.

distant place that rules over us. And then they let these people,

:38:20.:38:23.

making these huge salaries, who represent us. There is a strong

:38:23.:38:29.

temptation to sneer at the amateurism and provincialism of it.

:38:29.:38:32.

And we will see Nigel Farage doing his speech and we want to imagine

:38:32.:38:35.

that the audience is full of men in tin hats with spikes on them and

:38:35.:38:40.

monocles. Nothing drives people into their arms than the likes of me

:38:40.:38:42.

sitting in a studio sneering at them, so why try not to, but it is

:38:42.:38:48.

difficult. I think you just did. That is another 20 members they have

:38:48.:38:52.

got. While we're being on air, Nigel Farage been giving -- has been

:38:52.:38:57.

giving his keynote speech. Let's listen to him. We have been on the

:38:57.:39:02.

March four 20 long years. There have been many failures and many

:39:02.:39:06.

disappointments, many ups and downs. Lots of leaflets delivered. And over

:39:06.:39:10.

the years, many deposits lost. And, of course, we have been roundly

:39:10.:39:15.

abused and laughed that and mocked and derided. But despite that, over

:39:15.:39:21.

the last 18 months, something remarkable is happening. And we are

:39:21.:39:25.

now changing the face of British politics. 's -- by the end of this

:39:25.:39:39.

election, we will have the third-highest membership of any

:39:39.:39:45.

party in this country. Our opponents are appalled and the commentators

:39:45.:39:54.

are stunned and amazed. In eight months, we have the European

:39:54.:39:59.

elections and many council elections. We will be fielding sets

:39:59.:40:08.

of candidates in both. We intend to put up thousands of candidates for

:40:08.:40:10.

local elections with a big emphasis and a big push in London where the

:40:10.:40:16.

local seats are up for grabs. And I'm not going to take anything for

:40:16.:40:21.

granted. But I think we might do quite well next year. My ambition

:40:21.:40:26.

and conviction is that we can come first, across the United Kingdom, in

:40:26.:40:31.

those European elections, and cause an earthquake in British politics.

:40:31.:40:40.

When we launched this party, only 17% of the British people

:40:40.:40:43.

When we launched this party, only that we should leave the European

:40:43.:40:47.

Union. Today, that figure is 67%. The British social attitudes survey

:40:47.:40:52.

shows that Britain is moving in UKIP's direction. But it is not just

:40:52.:40:54.

doing that on the question of the UKIP's direction. But it is not just

:40:54.:40:58.

European Union, vital though that is. They are doing it on many areas

:40:58.:41:00.

European Union, vital though that of our national life. On welfare. It

:41:00.:41:04.

is clear that the benefits system should be there for the needy and

:41:04.:41:10.

not bear as a lifestyle choice. -- not there. On education, we are the

:41:10.:41:17.

only party that actually believes in social mobility. All the rest of

:41:17.:41:21.

them have effectively pulled the ladder up. From people from poor

:41:21.:41:28.

backgrounds in our big cities in particular. UKIP champion the idea

:41:28.:41:33.

that we need selective education and grammar schools. Once again, we are

:41:33.:41:47.

changing the debate. And, yes, on immigration, we have certainly

:41:47.:41:51.

changed the debate on immigration. This is a debate that, I think, is

:41:51.:41:57.

vital. It is the most important, biggest question facing our

:41:57.:42:02.

country, urgently. And it affects everything, the NHS, our broader

:42:02.:42:06.

economy, Primary School places, public services. And yet the

:42:06.:42:13.

establishment have done everything they can to close down debate on

:42:13.:42:16.

this issue and to decry anybody that dares to discuss the issue as being

:42:16.:42:20.

bad and racist. And we will not have dares to discuss the issue as being

:42:20.:42:28.

that. This issue must be debated. We have been here for 20 years. Some

:42:28.:42:34.

people keep asking, what is UKIP now? First, you are talking about

:42:34.:42:36.

the European question and then you talk about immigration and the

:42:36.:42:39.

grammar schools. I'm going to attempt to redefine what UKIP is.

:42:39.:42:48.

With this card. UKIP is a freethinking, egalitarian party,

:42:48.:42:53.

opposed to racism and extremism. UKIP is dedicated to liberty and

:42:53.:42:59.

equality under the law, and the aspirations of the British people.

:42:59.:43:02.

We will always act in the interests of the British nation, especially on

:43:03.:43:06.

immigration, employment, energy supply and fisheries. We know that

:43:06.:43:10.

only by leaving the European Union can we regain control of our

:43:10.:43:15.

borders, Parliament, democracy and our ability to trade freely with the

:43:15.:43:21.

fastest-growing economies in the world. A referendum to allow the

:43:21.:43:24.

country to decide this matter will create the greatest opportunity for

:43:24.:43:29.

national renewal in our lifetimes. That is my definition of UKIP. Nigel

:43:29.:43:40.

Farage, a few minutes ago. Norman Smith joins us. He was listening to

:43:40.:43:44.

the UKIP leader. Give us your impressions. Yellow macro it was

:43:44.:43:50.

interesting that apart from saying he expected UKIP to win the European

:43:50.:43:53.

elections, gave no predictions about getting any seats at Westminster.

:43:53.:43:57.

Instead, his pitch is that we are changing the face of British

:43:57.:44:02.

politics. He means that they might not win any seats but they are

:44:02.:44:05.

driving public opinion and they are driving the other parties to adopt

:44:05.:44:10.

policies which are more akin to their own. Obviously, on Europe, we

:44:10.:44:16.

have seen David Cameron promised a referendum in a few years and Nigel

:44:16.:44:21.

Farage saying there that UKIP would do the same before the next

:44:21.:44:26.

election. He said that UKIP were driving the debate that he was

:44:26.:44:30.

appalled by how right wing David Cameron and Nick Clegg were on

:44:30.:44:35.

immigration. And even on Syria. He suggested that because UKIP was

:44:35.:44:39.

opposed to intervention in Syria, that had intimidated some Tory MPs

:44:39.:44:42.

who he said were more frightened of UKIP voters than of the whips. In a

:44:42.:44:47.

way, suggesting that it was UKIP that resulted in David Cameron

:44:48.:44:50.

losing their vote in the Commons. His pitch now seems to be, don't

:44:50.:44:54.

inspect us to win many seats but look at the influence and impact

:44:55.:44:59.

that we can have. And is it true that there are more delegates at

:44:59.:45:03.

this conference than there were at the Lib Dems conference? Getting

:45:03.:45:09.

close to it. They are saying that there are around 1500 people here.

:45:09.:45:14.

It is certainly the biggest they have had. To be honest, they arrive

:45:14.:45:20.

on a roll. Why was struck that there was quite a lot of the speech

:45:20.:45:21.

devoted to Europe. You might say was quite a lot of the speech

:45:22.:45:25.

that is not a pricing but when we were told that one of the main aims

:45:25.:45:30.

of this conference was to flag up the diversity of policies they have

:45:30.:45:32.

on a range of issues, from the health service to housing to

:45:32.:45:38.

schools, still the core purpose of this party is to get out of Europe,

:45:38.:45:44.

which Nigel Farage believes will lead to a moment of national

:45:44.:45:48.

renewal. For all the other political windowdressing, which we have had

:45:48.:45:52.

around other policies, there is no getting away from it. What motivates

:45:52.:45:56.

people here, what they are totally about is getting out of Europe.

:45:56.:46:05.

Let's talk now to UKIP's deputy leader Paul Nuttall.

:46:05.:46:12.

Welcome to the Daily Politics, thanks for joining us. Tell me this,

:46:13.:46:19.

come the general election in 2015, What would be a good result for

:46:19.:46:34.

UKIP? We are still talking about this, it

:46:34.:46:40.

is all down to ourselves. We have to keep up the momentum, crucially, I

:46:40.:46:52.

think, is the 5000 seats up for election, if we can take seats,

:46:52.:46:57.

maybe we can replicate the Lib Dems and take seats in the general

:46:57.:47:00.

election from a base of local government.

:47:00.:47:07.

As things look at the moment, from the Ashcroft poll which came out

:47:07.:47:11.

earlier this week, in those seats where the Conservatives are a bit

:47:11.:47:17.

ahead of Labour, the main impact you would have is taking votes from the

:47:17.:47:23.

Tories and let Labour in, although you won't win any seats yourself.

:47:23.:47:28.

So, voting UKIP, but get Ed Miliband.

:47:28.:47:33.

Please don't fall into this Westminster bubble media chap. --

:47:33.:47:46.

trap. Look at our by-election results come in the North of

:47:46.:47:50.

England, we finish consistently second to Labour, polling as much as

:47:50.:47:57.

26% of the votes, taking a proportion from Labour, some from

:47:57.:48:01.

the Lib Dems. We are taking votes from people who have not voted in

:48:02.:48:05.

the past 20 years. You seem to have a permanent problem

:48:05.:48:12.

with some of your MEPs. Periodically, they seem to walk

:48:12.:48:18.

out. Is this because UKIP is really a one-man band, and Mr Farage has

:48:18.:48:26.

slightly dictatorial tendencies? No, basically, we have tightened up

:48:26.:48:32.

the process. I hope it is not a one-man band. Otherwise I might as

:48:32.:48:44.

well get back electioneering again. Look, we have tightened up our

:48:44.:48:48.

process this time around. We have gone through the most stringent

:48:48.:48:52.

test, probably of all the political parties, for our MEPs. If some have

:48:52.:49:00.

fallen by the wayside, that is hard luck. What we will do is, I think,

:49:00.:49:06.

we will send more MEPs back to Brussels next year on May 22 than

:49:06.:49:09.

any of the political parties put together. To ensure that, we have to

:49:09.:49:14.

get the process right. Is this a feature of all insurgent

:49:15.:49:19.

parties, you fall out with each other at some stage? You have just

:49:19.:49:25.

lost Mike Nattrass, then Nicky Sinclair who has founded her own

:49:26.:49:33.

party. And Marta Anderson, a leading UKIP light, she has joined the

:49:33.:49:42.

Tories. What is the story here? Hang on. The Conservatives lost one

:49:42.:49:47.

to the Lib Dems, we gained one from the Tories. People lose

:49:47.:49:51.

politicians, that happens. We are a young party, only 20 years old this

:49:51.:49:56.

week. Young parties go through growing pains. I can assure you

:49:56.:50:00.

now, next time it will be different, the people we get in the

:50:00.:50:04.

European Parliament next time around will be solid good people who will

:50:04.:50:08.

take the cause of wit -ish withdrawal forward and they won't be

:50:08.:50:12.

leaving UKIP. If it's still the case that getting

:50:12.:50:16.

out of the European Union is your raison d'etre chap, that you have

:50:16.:50:27.

other policies, but it -- you wouldn't exist otherwise?

:50:27.:50:33.

The party would not have been formed otherwise. UKIP was born to get us

:50:33.:50:37.

out of the European Union and we have been successful in driving

:50:37.:50:41.

public opinion. When the party was formed, only 60% of people believed

:50:41.:50:45.

Britain would be better outside the EU. It is now in the late 60s. We

:50:46.:50:53.

have been successful. We have to broaden our agenda. Talking earlier

:50:53.:50:59.

about the Ashcroft poll, there was another poll by the same noble Lord

:50:59.:51:03.

with people flocking to UKIP on another poll by the same noble Lord

:51:03.:51:07.

immigration and crime as well. You talked about giving great

:51:07.:51:10.

scrutiny to who would be standing for you but are you sure? If you

:51:10.:51:16.

were to scrutinise Nigel Farage you might not let him stand, given what

:51:16.:51:20.

seemed to be his hard right attitudes when he was at Dulwich

:51:20.:51:26.

public school? Andrew, come on, this is a nonstory.

:51:26.:51:33.

We are talking about what went on in his school days. If you listened to

:51:33.:51:37.

the headmaster and deputy head, they say something can piggy different

:51:37.:51:44.

than one far left teacher who has an axe to grind against Nigel. It's not

:51:44.:51:48.

really a story. If this is the best that the media can do, then, it is a

:51:48.:51:55.

pretty sorry state. So you can assure us today that you have purged

:51:55.:52:01.

your ranks of the hard right, racist, a liberal tendency, correct?

:52:01.:52:11.

-- illiberal. When I became chairman, the party

:52:11.:52:18.

had been infiltrated. We dealt with that. Since then, we have had a

:52:18.:52:22.

blanket ban on anybody who has ever been a member of a far right party.

:52:22.:52:29.

We are the only political party in this country with that land. The

:52:29.:52:34.

Labour Party has elected councillors who have crossed the floor from the

:52:34.:52:39.

BNP. We do not have a problem with the far right in our party.

:52:39.:52:44.

But you are overwhelmingly white, and strongly male. You are almost as

:52:44.:52:53.

white and male as the Lib Dems! I agree with you, I genuinely

:52:53.:52:58.

believe that UKIP needs to change that perception. I agree we are too

:52:59.:53:02.

white and middle-class and mail which is why I hope the list next

:53:02.:53:07.

time for the European elections includes a more eclectic bunch of

:53:07.:53:11.

people. If UKIP wants to move forward, we have to be

:53:11.:53:15.

representative of society as a whole. A final question.

:53:15.:53:20.

You have said to me before and again, that you are going to win the

:53:20.:53:25.

European elections next year and come far -- come first with most

:53:25.:53:32.

votes. Are you sure you are right to set the bar that high? It can only

:53:32.:53:40.

disappoint, can it not? Why not? It could become a

:53:40.:53:46.

self-fulfilling possibly -- prophecy. If Cameron doesn't bring

:53:46.:53:52.

forward a referendum and if the other parties do not offer a

:53:52.:53:58.

referendum, we will make next year the 20 14th European elections in

:53:58.:54:02.

referendum you never had. That is why we have a great opportunity of

:54:02.:54:12.

winning. Hugo, let me come to you. Mr Cameron

:54:12.:54:17.

doesn't seem to have a UKIP strategy yet, a way of dealing with UKIP,

:54:18.:54:23.

which is clearly a huge threat to him. It is difficult for him because

:54:23.:54:25.

which is clearly a huge threat to he does not know which angle to go

:54:25.:54:30.

at them from. UKIP say they are more than a Europe party. The issue of

:54:30.:54:41.

equal marriage, particularly older conservative voters have flocked to

:54:41.:54:44.

UKIP because they have so disliked that idea. Anyway, it shows the

:54:44.:54:51.

tension that UKIP has. You could almost call it a dishonesty, Nigel

:54:51.:54:55.

Farage saying they are a almost call it a dishonesty, Nigel

:54:55.:55:00.

liberty, was about the liberty to cross borders, for a man to marry a

:55:00.:55:05.

man. It is not liberty at all. A difficult thing for the Tories to

:55:05.:55:09.

fight against, particularly using rhetoric like that. A great many

:55:09.:55:13.

natural Tory voters would agree with UKIP.

:55:13.:55:17.

An interesting development in British politics.

:55:17.:55:19.

If the Lib Dem conference wasn't your thing, and you've tuned out

:55:19.:55:22.

from politics for the last seven days, here's the week in 60 seconds.

:55:22.:55:34.

It was Lib Dem conference week and whilst much of the talk was about

:55:34.:55:40.

whether Vince Cable were torn up to support the economic policy, Ed

:55:40.:55:43.

Davey was having problems with wind power. You have been marked by a

:55:43.:55:47.

Daily Politics poster. Nick Clegg try to prove there was

:55:47.:56:01.

such a thing as a free lunch, at least the schoolchildren. But after

:56:01.:56:05.

all that healthy fruit, he went and ruined it with a trip to the tuck

:56:05.:56:10.

shop. It was revealed MPs had made a string of complaints about the food

:56:10.:56:15.

in the House of Commons. Including raw fish, and an inadequate supply

:56:15.:56:19.

of vintage wine. David Cameron came out in favour of Spurs fans who want

:56:19.:56:25.

to carry on calling them the Yid army. And we learned that Eric

:56:25.:56:34.

Pickles has personalised ring phone -- ringtones.

:56:34.:56:42.

Let us not forget that there was a Lib Dem conference this week. It

:56:42.:56:50.

finished on Wednesday afternoon. How would you sum it up, how does Mr

:56:50.:56:55.

Clegg and his party come out? Nick Clegg came out of it pretty

:56:55.:56:59.

well, he sounded confident. Re-establishing who he is and what

:56:59.:57:03.

he stands for. The party overall, I don't think people were hugely

:57:03.:57:08.

interested. There wasn't a huge turnout of people. It almost doesn't

:57:08.:57:16.

matter what happens because they are going to be in a position of power

:57:16.:57:22.

at the time of the next election. If there is a hung parliament. And you

:57:22.:57:32.

are part of a growing consensus. You, I understand, writing Nick

:57:32.:57:39.

Clegg's diary for the newspaper? I am going to focus on Nick Clegg. I

:57:39.:57:44.

disagree. His speech reminded me of what John Major said Neil Kinnock,

:57:45.:57:48.

he doesn't know what he wants to stay so he has way of saying it.

:57:48.:57:54.

They are in a weird position, they can't do anything. The whole purpose

:57:54.:57:59.

of the Lib Dems being in this parliament is to show that coalition

:57:59.:58:02.

government can work. So they cannot do anything to destroy the

:58:02.:58:07.

coalition. Their major achievement will be to stay there so they can do

:58:07.:58:12.

it again. You can't bring it down by letting your principles get in the

:58:12.:58:23.

way. They do need to position themselves.

:58:23.:58:28.

Which is why he is saying he stuck up for...

:58:28.:58:34.

That's all for today. Thanks to our guests. The one o'clock news is

:58:34.:58:43.

starting on BBC One. I'll be back on BBC One on Sunday with the Sunday

:58:43.:58:46.

Politics with Labour's Rachel Reeves, Conservative Party chairman

:58:46.:58:49.

Grant Shapps, and the results of an exclusive survey of Labour

:58:49.:58:51.

councillors. Do join me then. Bye-bye.

:58:51.:58:54.

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