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Afternoon, folks, welcome to the Daily Politics. This is a conference | :00:36. | :00:48. | |
special on the Labour Party conference. | :00:48. | :00:50. | |
Price controls on energy, land grabs, higher taxes for big business | :00:50. | :00:54. | |
- have Labour found a winning formula with their populist pitch to | :00:54. | :00:55. | |
voters? Well, his wife loves him. And the | :00:56. | :00:59. | |
Labour party have produced these photographs to prove it. But what do | :00:59. | :01:02. | |
the British people think of Mr Miliband? | :01:02. | :01:05. | |
Ed Balls is sounding sceptical. We ask Labour Party activists if it's | :01:05. | :01:12. | |
time to pull the plug on HS2. And Quentin Letts gives us his take | :01:12. | :01:18. | |
on Labour's week at the seaside. The conference hall has been echoing to | :01:18. | :01:22. | |
the ghostly cries of spirits past, enough to give poor old Ed Mili the | :01:22. | :01:31. | |
willies. All that in the next hour. And with | :01:31. | :01:40. | |
as for the duration today is Deborah Mattinson, who used to do opinion | :01:40. | :01:45. | |
polls for Gordon Brown, and has the scars to show it. She now runs a | :01:45. | :01:53. | |
consultancy called Britain Thinks. Let's start with Ed Miliband's | :01:53. | :01:58. | |
speech, which he says has changed the face of Britain. He spoke for | :01:58. | :02:02. | |
more than an hour. His catchphrase, repeated 17 times, "Britain can do | :02:02. | :02:08. | |
better than this". Amongst the policies he announced, Labour would | :02:08. | :02:13. | |
introduce a 22 month freeze on gas and electricity prices. Not just per | :02:13. | :02:18. | |
household but the businesses as well. We will talk a bit more later | :02:18. | :02:25. | |
about Mr Miliband's position in the political debate and popularity or | :02:25. | :02:32. | |
lack of. Give us your view on the speech. He spoke for an hour without | :02:32. | :02:36. | |
notes last year, so we knew he could do that but last year, the speech | :02:36. | :02:39. | |
was well delivered but very abstract, very hard for politician | :02:39. | :02:43. | |
subsequently to connect that with voters. What he has managed to | :02:43. | :02:47. | |
achieve this time is how very concrete, what I would call symbolic | :02:47. | :02:51. | |
policies, symbolic of his take on the world. You may like it, you may | :02:51. | :02:57. | |
not. Nobody can say, they don't know where he stands. And actually, | :02:57. | :03:01. | |
nobody can say the parties are all the same. And I think he has | :03:01. | :03:06. | |
achieved that and he is achieving a debate, because the big challenge is | :03:06. | :03:10. | |
how you get what happens in the conference hall out there, because | :03:10. | :03:14. | |
the voters do not watch. It is right to think, and all the main political | :03:14. | :03:17. | |
leaders do it now across the democratic world, every one of these | :03:17. | :03:19. | |
propositions, for example, the 20 democratic world, every one of these | :03:19. | :03:22. | |
month freeze on gas and electricity prices, would have been put to focus | :03:22. | :03:29. | |
groups. It most certainly will have been and I gather that in the focus | :03:29. | :03:37. | |
groups where they were tested, the ratings were of the scale. And I can | :03:37. | :03:42. | |
certainly see that, I haven't tested that particular policy but over the | :03:42. | :03:45. | |
years have done a lot of work and I know that one of the big things that | :03:45. | :03:48. | |
people are concerned about is energy prices and prices going up. They | :03:48. | :03:52. | |
can't understand that in the context of the profits that those companies | :03:52. | :03:57. | |
make. There is no question that it has been a popular announcement. And | :03:57. | :04:01. | |
he has made it clear whose side he is on, I think. Good. Jo. Let's get | :04:01. | :04:09. | |
a sense of the mood at conference. We can talk to Sam Coates from the | :04:09. | :04:13. | |
Times and Rafael Behr from the New Statesman. Sam Coates, they loved | :04:13. | :04:18. | |
the speech in the hall, did you love it? Well he achieved what he wanted | :04:18. | :04:25. | |
to, to define himself very much as the centre-left of British politics. | :04:25. | :04:30. | |
He wanted to put clear water between himself and David Cameron and make | :04:30. | :04:33. | |
clear that he is on the left of British politics. He succeeded. What | :04:33. | :04:40. | |
he also did was designed to deploy himself against all sorts of | :04:40. | :04:44. | |
organisations and bits of society that normally you need endorsement | :04:44. | :04:48. | |
from. The CBI have essentially disowned Labour now, as have other | :04:48. | :04:54. | |
business groups, as they think that Labour has basically said they are | :04:54. | :04:58. | |
not involved with enterprise. That was always the risk, wasn't it, | :04:58. | :05:02. | |
Rafael Behr, Ed Miliband setting himself on the sides of voters, | :05:02. | :05:06. | |
promising them something better if they vote for Labour in 2015. Does | :05:06. | :05:09. | |
he risk being painted as they vote for Labour in 2015. Does | :05:09. | :05:12. | |
anti-business? Anti-wealth, in that sense, which many people will argue | :05:12. | :05:19. | |
is needed if the recovery is going to continue? There is certainly that | :05:19. | :05:23. | |
risk, although I would say clearly he has gone into it with his eyes | :05:23. | :05:27. | |
open. If you speak to people around Ed Miliband, they knew this was | :05:27. | :05:32. | |
going to be a big fight and they chose distinctly to set themselves | :05:32. | :05:36. | |
up on the side of consumers against what they see as vested interest. I | :05:36. | :05:41. | |
know there is a crisis in Ed Miliband's brand as a leader, people | :05:41. | :05:45. | |
don't take in that seriously as a potential Prime Minister and one of | :05:45. | :05:48. | |
the things he was trying to do yesterday was changed in framework | :05:48. | :05:51. | |
and parameters of what people think as a leader. He was saying you may | :05:51. | :05:56. | |
think David Cameron is strong but he is strong against the week and I | :05:56. | :05:59. | |
will be strong standing up to the strong, in this case the energy | :05:59. | :06:01. | |
will be strong standing up to the companies or the banks or whoever | :06:01. | :06:05. | |
is. Labour knew they were going to get attacked by parable people but | :06:05. | :06:12. | |
that is kind of the point. What about the other big point, the | :06:12. | :06:15. | |
energy bill freeze for 20 months. That has captured people's | :06:15. | :06:18. | |
attentions, they are picking over the details of whether it will work | :06:18. | :06:21. | |
all the lights will go out, but it was a brave, radical move. Yes, of | :06:21. | :06:27. | |
course, if you ask people if they want to pay less for their energy | :06:27. | :06:31. | |
bills, they will say yes, so it is a popular policy, but as far as energy | :06:31. | :06:35. | |
is concerned, he has to do three things in the next few years if he | :06:35. | :06:40. | |
becomes Prime Minister. One is to deliver the price freeze on the Open | :06:40. | :06:44. | |
market. The second is to hit zero carbon targets and then to nature | :06:44. | :06:48. | |
there is a new generation of power stations and ensure investment takes | :06:48. | :06:51. | |
place, in a world where energy stations and ensure investment takes | :06:51. | :06:55. | |
companies are global and can choose to invest their money in other | :06:55. | :06:58. | |
countries. So I think he has three tasks but he has only chosen to talk | :06:58. | :07:04. | |
about one of them. What happens if in 2017, the reforms not work out as | :07:04. | :07:09. | |
he hoped, there will be a big negative electoral dividend. | :07:09. | :07:13. | |
Already, we are talking about what happens in 2017 if he is elected, | :07:13. | :07:19. | |
but this is already what people are talking about, the practical reality | :07:19. | :07:23. | |
of a Labour Government and what it would do, so this is a win for Ed | :07:23. | :07:27. | |
Miliband already. From that point of view, there are all sorts of detail | :07:27. | :07:32. | |
they want to play out but my sense from speaking to people around Ed | :07:32. | :07:34. | |
Miliband is they knew this was coming, they are very prepared to | :07:34. | :07:38. | |
take this as a campaign onto the doorstep and turn it into leaflets | :07:38. | :07:42. | |
and someone in his office gave me an ice cube, to represent a price | :07:42. | :07:47. | |
freeze. They are turning this into a three-dimensional project to take | :07:47. | :07:50. | |
out on the road, which is a criticism levelled against them in | :07:50. | :07:52. | |
the past, after the one Nation speech last year, there was nothing | :07:52. | :07:56. | |
to follow it up. This is what they call follow-through. Do think there | :07:56. | :08:02. | |
has been a psychological change? A shift in the way people are looking | :08:02. | :08:05. | |
at Ed Miliband and perhaps a future Labour Government? Sam? Speak that | :08:05. | :08:12. | |
is what they want. One of the most interesting things is how the | :08:12. | :08:17. | |
Blairites are discussing what happened yesterday. I spoke to one | :08:17. | :08:20. | |
of them and one of them said they were not sure it was a big policy. | :08:20. | :08:29. | |
Of Jim already has plans to start price controls -- Ofgem already have | :08:30. | :08:36. | |
plans. They are talking about a price cap and on the headline | :08:36. | :08:42. | |
grabbing land policy, it was said but have you not heard of compulsory | :08:42. | :08:46. | |
purchase orders? I wonder if we are getting carried away with the | :08:46. | :08:48. | |
rhetoric of the speech in the way that Ed Miliband wanted and | :08:48. | :08:50. | |
rhetoric of the speech in the way completely forgetting that we are | :08:50. | :08:53. | |
not that far away from an awful lot of these things been possible at the | :08:53. | :08:58. | |
moment. Rafael Behr, how do you think Team Cameron will or should | :08:58. | :09:02. | |
respond? Certainly they need to be quite careful not to go out | :09:02. | :09:04. | |
respond? Certainly they need to be cheerleading for the big energy | :09:04. | :09:07. | |
companies, which are generally very unpopular. My understanding is that | :09:07. | :09:11. | |
next week they are not going to use their conference to rebut anything | :09:11. | :09:14. | |
Labour have been saying, they are just going to say they have a record | :09:14. | :09:17. | |
of fixing the economy, they are working on it and it has been tough | :09:17. | :09:21. | |
but they are making the right decisions. They will save their | :09:21. | :09:23. | |
attacks on this kind of stuff and addressing the cost of living until | :09:23. | :09:30. | |
the Autumn statements. They will have a bit of fun, they like | :09:30. | :09:32. | |
attacking Ed Miliband as a lefty. I'm sure they will mention red Ed | :09:32. | :09:35. | |
more than once. Now it's time for our daily quiz. | :09:35. | :09:38. | |
Today's question is what happened next? You might have heard former | :09:38. | :09:44. | |
Labour spin doctor Damian McBride has been doing the media rounds in | :09:44. | :09:48. | |
Brighton this week. I am told he has a book to sell! Heery was preparing | :09:48. | :09:54. | |
for a live interview on ITV yesterday morning that here he was. | :09:54. | :09:58. | |
So what happened next? At the end of the show, Deborah will give us the | :09:58. | :10:01. | |
correct answer. And I bet you know. I do know. | :10:01. | :10:05. | |
The days of Labour schmoozing company bosses with prawn sandwiches | :10:05. | :10:10. | |
are over. In his speech yesterday, Ed Miliband had a much tougher | :10:10. | :10:13. | |
message for businesses. His hope is that voters will see him as a kind | :10:13. | :10:17. | |
of Robin Hood figure, taking from rich companies to help ordinary | :10:17. | :10:20. | |
people. But what exactly does he have in mind? And will it work? Jo | :10:20. | :10:23. | |
has more. The first target was the energy | :10:24. | :10:27. | |
companies, with the promise to freeze bills until 2017 if Labour | :10:27. | :10:30. | |
wins the election. "The companies aren't going to like | :10:31. | :10:34. | |
this," he said, "because it will cost them more, but they've been | :10:34. | :10:37. | |
overcharging people for too long in a market that doesn't work." | :10:37. | :10:41. | |
He also took aim at property developers who own land with | :10:41. | :10:44. | |
planning permission but won't build. They were told it would be a case of | :10:44. | :10:49. | |
"use the land or lose the land". Large companies will not get the | :10:49. | :10:51. | |
corporation tax cut they were Large companies will not get the | :10:51. | :10:56. | |
expecting if Labour win. Ed Miliband accused them of short-changing small | :10:56. | :10:59. | |
businesses and promised it was something he would put right. | :10:59. | :11:03. | |
And he said that, under Labour, companies would face a higher | :11:03. | :11:07. | |
minimum wage to defeat low pay. Joining us now to discuss some of | :11:07. | :11:10. | |
these ideas is John Cridland, Director-General of the CBI. John | :11:10. | :11:16. | |
Cridland, welcome to the programme. Isn't Ed Miliband right to say that | :11:16. | :11:21. | |
the minimum wage hasn't kept up the cost of living? It hasn't, so should | :11:21. | :11:27. | |
it be increased? It hasn't up because employers and trade unions | :11:27. | :11:30. | |
on the low pay commission took the view that it was better to keep | :11:30. | :11:33. | |
people in their job earning something than pricing them out of | :11:33. | :11:37. | |
employment. Those are the real hard choices. Do you think it would have | :11:37. | :11:42. | |
that effect if the minimum wage was put up, increased, in two years' | :11:42. | :11:47. | |
time? Absolutely, because the people on the minimum wage are the ones | :11:47. | :11:55. | |
with the least skills and police productivity. The best thing is to | :11:55. | :11:59. | |
get them into the job and with the best employers, progress up the | :11:59. | :12:03. | |
business once they have a foot in the door. I minimum wage is price | :12:03. | :12:07. | |
people out of work. -- a high minimum wage. That is not to say | :12:07. | :12:12. | |
that as the economy improves, wages won't go up, they will. But do we | :12:12. | :12:16. | |
need the Government to control wages, prices, assets and taxing | :12:16. | :12:22. | |
businesses more? Labour would argue we are in a cost of living crisis | :12:22. | :12:25. | |
and many people are feeling the pain, even as growth returns. As you | :12:25. | :12:30. | |
have admitted, wages are not keeping up with inflation. Is it right the | :12:30. | :12:36. | |
taxpayers should subsidise people on low play because employers will not | :12:36. | :12:43. | |
pay them enough -- Lope? Employers pay what they can afford to pay | :12:43. | :12:48. | |
according to the income they get from consumers. If a shoeshine on | :12:48. | :12:54. | |
the high Street -- a shoe shop on a high street as wages going up by 1p | :12:54. | :13:01. | |
per hour, the pass the cost on to who? It is not one particular thing | :13:01. | :13:06. | |
in his speech that disappointed me, it was all other things. Added | :13:06. | :13:11. | |
together, this is a real setback for Labour's pro-credentials. -- | :13:11. | :13:18. | |
pro-enterprise credentials. We want Labour to speak for all business, | :13:18. | :13:21. | |
not beta sub and then say it is speaking for small business and | :13:21. | :13:28. | |
attacking large business. But all businesses are not the same, and big | :13:28. | :13:32. | |
businesses have arguably been sitting on big piles of cash, they | :13:32. | :13:36. | |
haven't been investing. Small businesses have been struggling. Are | :13:36. | :13:39. | |
you saying they are not the lifeline as the economy -- of the economy, as | :13:39. | :13:45. | |
Ed Miliband and David Cameron has said, and have not been able to get | :13:45. | :13:50. | |
credit from the banks? I speak for all businesses. The vast majority of | :13:50. | :13:54. | |
CBI members are small, I have a medium-sized companies and large | :13:54. | :13:58. | |
companies, and they speak with one voice. They like the public, like | :13:58. | :14:02. | |
the citizen and consumer, have had a tough time. They make decisions on | :14:02. | :14:07. | |
the basis of keeping their business afloat. The Government is there to | :14:07. | :14:11. | |
set minimum standards. If you begin interfering in price, property and | :14:11. | :14:15. | |
wage as well as tax and you push business taxes up. How do you expect | :14:15. | :14:19. | |
that to have a positive impact on wealth creation, job creation and | :14:19. | :14:24. | |
more jobs on the high street? Are you saying big business cannot | :14:24. | :14:29. | |
afford a delayed reduction in corporate tax but small businesses | :14:29. | :14:32. | |
can afford to pay business rates which are way beyond their means? I | :14:32. | :14:38. | |
am pleased that the Labour Party is focused on business rates. The CBI | :14:38. | :14:40. | |
is focused on reducing business focused on business rates. The CBI | :14:40. | :14:43. | |
rates, but I don't think it is the right call to fund that through an | :14:43. | :14:48. | |
increase in corporation tax. It is a delayed reaction. It is an increase | :14:48. | :14:52. | |
over what business has been told by the current Government, it would be | :14:52. | :14:57. | |
in 2015. If business believes that corporation tax is going to be at | :14:57. | :15:02. | |
20p, it has more retaining earnings to invest in factories, jobs and | :15:02. | :15:09. | |
increasing wages. If it goes up to 21p, it has less money to help with | :15:09. | :15:11. | |
living standards. John Cridland, thank you. | :15:11. | :15:12. | |
living standards. John Cridland, We're joined now from Brighton by | :15:12. | :15:15. | |
the Shadow Education Secretary Stephen Twigg. Thank you be joining | :15:15. | :15:22. | |
us. Hello, Andrew. Let's stick with the gas and electricity price | :15:22. | :15:27. | |
freeze. Undoubtedly a very popular policy to announce, people will like | :15:27. | :15:31. | |
it and they will think that gas bills are too high. Let me ask you | :15:31. | :15:34. | |
this, if the energy market in Britain is as dysfunctional as your | :15:34. | :15:40. | |
party is claiming it to be, why does Britain have some of the lowest gas | :15:40. | :15:47. | |
and electricity prices in Europe? We have seen a massive increase in gas | :15:47. | :15:52. | |
and electricity prices. The wholesale price of gas and | :15:52. | :15:56. | |
electricity goes up, the retail price goes up bad when it falls we | :15:56. | :15:58. | |
electricity goes up, the retail have not seen the same fall. The | :15:58. | :16:01. | |
market is not functioning properly and this is a reformed to make it | :16:01. | :16:08. | |
function properly. I understand there are bits where it could be | :16:08. | :16:11. | |
much improved and it does not work properly. But if it is as bad as you | :16:11. | :16:16. | |
say, why are gas and lectures are two prices among the lowest in | :16:16. | :16:22. | |
Europe? -- and electricity prices? I don't think it is the issue when we | :16:22. | :16:26. | |
have seen enormous increases and we have seen increases in the profits | :16:26. | :16:29. | |
of the big six companies. The consumers are having to pay more and | :16:30. | :16:34. | |
that is what we have to sort out. This is a 20 month freeze, if Labour | :16:34. | :16:39. | |
wins in 2015, so we can sort out the gas and electricity market. The | :16:39. | :16:46. | |
Ofgem figures show that on electricity prices we have the third | :16:46. | :16:50. | |
lowest in western Europe. Only Finland, France and Greece have | :16:50. | :16:55. | |
lower prices. On gas prices, we are the cheapest, by a huge amount. Is | :16:56. | :17:03. | |
it suggested that there is not scope for us to reform the market? There | :17:03. | :17:09. | |
is always scope but my point to you is that if the market is functioning | :17:09. | :17:14. | |
so badly, why do we do better than almost anybody else in Europe? | :17:14. | :17:22. | |
But we can do better still. Countries like France, what are they | :17:22. | :17:25. | |
doing right? We have a market that simply isn't working. The difference | :17:25. | :17:30. | |
between Paris and London is very small. The reality for families, | :17:30. | :17:36. | |
hard-pressed families, the reality is they have seen these big rises, | :17:36. | :17:41. | |
even when the wholesale price has been falling. They haven't been | :17:41. | :17:45. | |
getting the benefit. There must be something going wrong. It is not a | :17:45. | :17:50. | |
proper, competitive market. We want to reform the energy market so it is | :17:50. | :17:53. | |
properly competitive and consumers benefit, it must make sense. It is | :17:53. | :17:59. | |
May 2015, you have won the election, you bring in a gas and elected to | :17:59. | :18:04. | |
price freeze. It is October 2015 and the Middle East is in chaos, or your | :18:04. | :18:10. | |
prices spike, gas prices spike, what do you do then -- or you'll prices | :18:10. | :18:11. | |
spike. It is a very hypothetical question | :18:11. | :18:20. | |
and if they prices happens, you have to address that. The reality is the | :18:20. | :18:25. | |
big six are making enormous profits and not passing on the benefits to | :18:26. | :18:30. | |
customers and the market needs to be reformed. A crisis may happen but | :18:30. | :18:33. | |
the reality is they are hoarding these enormous profits. What is the | :18:33. | :18:40. | |
average rate of return on capital of one of the big six? I don't know the | :18:40. | :18:48. | |
answer. How can you claim they are making big profits? Are you saying | :18:48. | :18:51. | |
they're not making big profits? Everyone knows they are making big | :18:51. | :18:55. | |
profits. You don't, you can't tell me. , police -- companies like | :18:55. | :19:03. | |
Centrica are often the ones who invest the least. I don't think the | :19:03. | :19:09. | |
idea is -- of less investment is borne out by the fact. It is about | :19:09. | :19:13. | |
reforming the market and that is good for consumers. It Centrica is | :19:13. | :19:18. | |
making such huge profits, what is their return on investments? You are | :19:18. | :19:25. | |
asking me the same question. I have said I do not know how to answer | :19:25. | :19:30. | |
that question. It is about consumers getting their fair share. You are | :19:30. | :19:34. | |
making claims about the company and you don't know what they make. I | :19:34. | :19:35. | |
think you need to do your homework. you don't know what they make. I | :19:35. | :19:41. | |
We have done our homework. We published a document yesterday | :19:41. | :19:46. | |
setting out in great detail the basis for these plans. These are | :19:46. | :19:50. | |
well thought through plans and we have taken very sound advice. Let me | :19:50. | :19:56. | |
tell you this, the return on investment in Centrica is lower than | :19:56. | :20:02. | |
the return on investment at Tesco. So why don't you introduce food | :20:02. | :20:08. | |
price controls? Come on, energy prices have gone up enormously. So | :20:08. | :20:15. | |
have food prices. You can't draw a sound parallel. It is a completely | :20:15. | :20:21. | |
different scenario. Let me move on. Minimum wage. Is Labour going to | :20:21. | :20:27. | |
increase the minimum wage? The minimum wage needs to be | :20:28. | :20:31. | |
strengthened and Ed Miliband has strengthened out ways to do that. | :20:31. | :20:36. | |
Increasingly finds for those who don't pay the minimum wage. -- | :20:37. | :20:38. | |
increasing the finds. One of the new things we have said | :20:38. | :20:49. | |
is that in some sectors, it would be possible to have a minimum wage | :20:49. | :20:52. | |
higher than the national minimum wage and we want that to be | :20:52. | :20:55. | |
considered and we are going to look into that. Strength and is a | :20:55. | :21:00. | |
different verb from increase, will Labour increase the minimum wage -- | :21:00. | :21:08. | |
strengthen is a different verb. It has increased less than the general | :21:08. | :21:15. | |
rate of wages. We have a low pay commission that we set up to | :21:15. | :21:21. | |
independently determine whether the minimum wage goes up. We have said | :21:21. | :21:25. | |
there are sectors where it could be afforded to pay a higher minimum | :21:25. | :21:28. | |
wage and we would look at how that would operate. On this land grab you | :21:28. | :21:33. | |
are talking about, taking land back from developers who haven't built on | :21:33. | :21:37. | |
that land, can you explain how it would work best mark would you | :21:37. | :21:43. | |
compulsory purchase the land? You have to pay market rate? Would the | :21:43. | :21:50. | |
government by the land? We want to strengthen the role for local | :21:50. | :21:53. | |
communities including local government, that does include | :21:53. | :21:57. | |
greater use of compulsory purchase. We have announced April to pull on | :21:57. | :22:01. | |
this and we need to consult further on the detail to get it right. It | :22:01. | :22:05. | |
cannot be right at a time and we have a housing crisis in this | :22:05. | :22:09. | |
country, people unable to afford to buy, a shortage of housing for rent, | :22:09. | :22:13. | |
that we have big developers hoarding land, waiting for the value to go | :22:13. | :22:18. | |
up, when people are unable to get a home. What evidence do you have that | :22:18. | :22:23. | |
big developers are hoarding land? We have evidence from local authorities | :22:23. | :22:29. | |
and a whole range of organisations. What studies have you done? What | :22:29. | :22:35. | |
study shows this? We have not commissioned our own study but there | :22:35. | :22:39. | |
has been researched by housing organisations like Shelter that | :22:39. | :22:43. | |
campaign on homelessness issues, the local government Association, this | :22:43. | :22:50. | |
is a sensible, practical, concrete measure to try to ensure we can get | :22:50. | :22:52. | |
house building up. You mentioned local authorities, the | :22:52. | :23:06. | |
local government authority which covers all authorities did a study | :23:06. | :23:10. | |
of this in 2011, it is called the Glen Egan report. It found there was | :23:10. | :23:12. | |
not hoarding. Half of the homes were Glen Egan report. It found there was | :23:12. | :23:21. | |
under construction, 83,000 were social housing. They were awaiting | :23:21. | :23:27. | |
government money for starting them for the bid found no evidence of | :23:27. | :23:31. | |
hoarding and neither did the OS to study under your government in 2008. | :23:31. | :23:41. | |
-- the Office of Fair Trading study. That was five years ago, things have | :23:41. | :23:47. | |
got a lot worse. I was in Oxford last week talking to people from | :23:47. | :23:50. | |
Oxford City Council who were talking about this exact issue and | :23:50. | :23:54. | |
suggesting the kind of issue that Ed Miliband has set out. I think the | :23:54. | :23:59. | |
evidence is there but it is right that we consult to make sure we | :23:59. | :24:02. | |
commend this properly. Thanks for joining us. | :24:02. | :24:08. | |
And we're joined now by Angela Knight of Energy UK - the | :24:08. | :24:12. | |
organisation that represents energy companies. Welcome to the programme. | :24:12. | :24:16. | |
Ed Miliband is right to say that the energy market is not functioning | :24:16. | :24:20. | |
properly, isn't he? I don't think he is but that doesn't mean you can't | :24:20. | :24:26. | |
make it function better. The gas market works extremely well, the | :24:26. | :24:30. | |
electricity market, there has been a lot of intervention. Some of the | :24:30. | :24:33. | |
initiatives and policy issues have rather skewed the market. The | :24:33. | :24:36. | |
questions we have to answer, and there is some work on this going on | :24:37. | :24:42. | |
right now, is how can one improve the markets? It is easy to say they | :24:42. | :24:46. | |
are bust, they are not bust but what improvements can be made? One of the | :24:46. | :24:52. | |
improvements is if the energy generating companies were forced to | :24:52. | :24:54. | |
split from electricity Supply Company is, that would be fairer -- | :24:54. | :25:03. | |
letters to supply companies -- electricity supply companies. They | :25:03. | :25:07. | |
cannot compete with companies who generate their own electricity. I | :25:07. | :25:13. | |
don't agree with you. Companies trying to enter the market say they | :25:13. | :25:19. | |
cannot break into the market. If you look at what is happening on the | :25:19. | :25:22. | |
market, whether you are an integrated company or not, the | :25:22. | :25:25. | |
electricity market is extraordinary liquid. It is because it alleges it | :25:25. | :25:32. | |
is going on to the market and it is available to be purchased -- it is | :25:32. | :25:36. | |
because electricity is going onto the market. The question is whether | :25:36. | :25:40. | |
there are changes which could make it longer ahead, that market. It is | :25:40. | :25:45. | |
not a question of integrated or not but how a market works. If you are a | :25:45. | :25:49. | |
new company having to purchase it, they have to purchase at a far | :25:49. | :25:53. | |
higher price. They can't afford to do it. There is a wholesale market | :25:53. | :25:58. | |
price, it is published and open. So that isn't the case. You would not | :25:58. | :26:03. | |
say that it is unfair if a supermarket owns farms, so the meat | :26:03. | :26:08. | |
produced in the farms are sold at the supermarket. Of course it is not | :26:08. | :26:15. | |
unfair. What is absolutely required is strong transparency, that is | :26:15. | :26:18. | |
fine, accounting in the separate parts of the organisation. The | :26:18. | :26:23. | |
numbers are made public, which they are, to Ofgem. You need new entrants | :26:23. | :26:29. | |
into the market, we have a lot of independent generators and | :26:29. | :26:30. | |
increasingly new suppliers are coming onto the market. You don't | :26:30. | :26:35. | |
have that if a market doesn't work. So let's make it work better, not | :26:35. | :26:42. | |
pretend it is broken. Labour is suggesting it does not work on | :26:42. | :26:45. | |
behalf of the consumer. On the half of the consumer, they think the | :26:45. | :26:52. | |
market is asked. They have focus grouped these policies and it was | :26:52. | :26:55. | |
stratospherically yacht lost the trust of the public -- you have lost | :26:55. | :27:02. | |
the trust of the public. It was stratospherically against you. Some | :27:02. | :27:06. | |
of it must come down to the behaviour of the big six. Why have | :27:07. | :27:11. | |
the big six energy companies risen so much in recent years? The | :27:11. | :27:16. | |
organisation represents many more than the big six. The big six were | :27:16. | :27:22. | |
being talked about. We recognise the important part of trust and the fact | :27:22. | :27:26. | |
that trust has been lost and needs to be rebuilt. The profits that have | :27:26. | :27:30. | |
risen are not offered, it is the operating margin. It is the amount | :27:30. | :27:36. | |
-- the profits that have risen are actually not profit. The actual | :27:36. | :27:40. | |
profit is around the 5% mark. The return on capital employed is not | :27:41. | :27:45. | |
high. They invested £11 billion last year. The big six invested £11 | :27:45. | :27:53. | |
billion? Last year, it has to be paid for. If you -- unless we | :27:53. | :27:57. | |
recognise we have to make some money, you don't get the | :27:57. | :28:01. | |
investment. Sure, companies have to make profit. But let's have a look | :28:01. | :28:06. | |
on the British Gas has seen profits rise 3% in the first half of this | :28:07. | :28:13. | |
year to make £356 million. Centrica saw half-year profits soar by 9% to | :28:13. | :28:18. | |
1.58 billion pounds. These are eye watering figures for consumers who | :28:18. | :28:23. | |
just see their bills go up and up. Can you say how much the big six | :28:23. | :28:26. | |
company 's are going to put up their energy bills next month? They will, | :28:26. | :28:33. | |
went there? You have to ask them for a emotional -- a commercial | :28:33. | :28:43. | |
decision. When I have but these figures to you... Can I not answer | :28:43. | :28:52. | |
the previous question? British Gas raised prices by 6% last November | :28:52. | :28:58. | |
who are already seeing cost of living squeezed and the speculation | :28:58. | :29:01. | |
is it is going to go up 8% next month. It is three times the rate of | :29:02. | :29:07. | |
inflation. I am going to do the profit question first. On average, | :29:07. | :29:12. | |
about 5%, about £1 per week for every household. It is less than | :29:12. | :29:16. | |
most supermarkets. Yet the investment programme is one of the | :29:16. | :29:18. | |
biggest investment programmes in the country. That is the first point. | :29:19. | :29:23. | |
The second point, on your bill is a whole series of pass-through charges | :29:23. | :29:26. | |
and they have been going up. The network renewal pro gram, the wires, | :29:26. | :29:33. | |
the pipes, the policies of the green deals -- network renewal programme. | :29:33. | :29:38. | |
All of it gets pass-through onto the bill. The world price of energy and | :29:38. | :29:45. | |
gas is as it is and that is another thing that comes through on the | :29:45. | :29:50. | |
bill. The actual proportion which the energy company has control of is | :29:50. | :29:55. | |
probably about 19% at a whole lot sits on the bill and they get the | :29:55. | :30:00. | |
blame. -- but a whole lots it's on the bill. Rebuilding trust is | :30:00. | :30:04. | |
important but it is also important to talk about the issues from end to | :30:04. | :30:10. | |
end. Where is this big investment in energy coming from? All of the | :30:10. | :30:13. | |
energy companies are withdrawing investment. We have not built a new | :30:13. | :30:17. | |
nuclear plant for years, Centrica has announced it is not going to go | :30:18. | :30:23. | |
ahead with two new gas plants. The two German companies have withdrawn | :30:23. | :30:26. | |
their investment. Where is this great investment in energy coming | :30:26. | :30:33. | |
from? A large amount has come from building wind farms. That is your | :30:33. | :30:40. | |
ansa? We are leading the world. Denmark and Germany have a lot | :30:40. | :30:46. | |
more. In offshore wind farms... They are very expensive. We are not | :30:46. | :30:52. | |
building gas stations, we are not building nuclear stations. The | :30:52. | :30:56. | |
energy companies are making profits and not reinvesting them. They are | :30:56. | :31:01. | |
reinvesting them. They are reinvesting them in what it is that | :31:01. | :31:04. | |
the policy has told them to reinvest in. And I think you are absolutely | :31:04. | :31:10. | |
right, we should be building more gas fire power stations. But you are | :31:10. | :31:18. | |
threatening to do the opposite. Prices are artificially low and we | :31:18. | :31:21. | |
end up with an odd and where they are too high for individuals, to | :31:21. | :31:24. | |
local companies. Why can't we discuss it properly cushy mark are | :31:24. | :31:32. | |
you convinced by this? Will this when anybody over? Know, and I think | :31:32. | :31:37. | |
energy companies have a huge amount of work to do. Bringing it back to | :31:37. | :31:39. | |
the consumer, this isn't nice to have. It is heating or eating. | :31:39. | :31:45. | |
Struggling to get through the week or the month. These are big bills | :31:45. | :31:48. | |
that make a big difference and the gas companies know that. It is not | :31:48. | :31:52. | |
just politicians that do focus groups, oil companies do that as | :31:52. | :31:56. | |
well. They know that and the fact they are not responding better | :31:56. | :31:59. | |
suggests the market is not working as well as they think. You are | :31:59. | :32:04. | |
right, the concern about the bills is fundamental and they have gone | :32:04. | :32:07. | |
up, there is no getting away from it. There are real reasons for it | :32:07. | :32:11. | |
and there is no point saying, it is you're pulled, it is you're pulled. | :32:11. | :32:12. | |
and there is no point saying, it is Prices have gone up, you can get | :32:12. | :32:18. | |
welfare assistance the food but not energy, that comes back through the | :32:18. | :32:23. | |
companies. What have you done in your life that you have spent part | :32:23. | :32:28. | |
of your life defending banks and now energy companies? I am a believer in | :32:28. | :32:36. | |
British industry. I'm a believer in companies producing some of the | :32:36. | :32:39. | |
great goods and services that we want and I have given you an | :32:39. | :32:43. | |
answer. Deborah Mattinson, does it matter to Labour is big business | :32:43. | :32:48. | |
says we are going to move away from the Labour Party? I think Ed | :32:48. | :32:53. | |
Miliband has positioned it carefully, talking about what he's | :32:53. | :32:56. | |
going to do for small businesses. It is good to have the debate, because | :32:56. | :33:00. | |
that is the way he's going to get the story out and big business has a | :33:00. | :33:02. | |
that is the way he's going to get lot to do for its own reputation at | :33:02. | :33:06. | |
the moment, so it is a debate worth having thank you. | :33:06. | :33:09. | |
the moment, so it is a debate worth I am sure we will come back to it. | :33:09. | :33:14. | |
So there was plenty of policy from the Labour leader yesterday, but | :33:14. | :33:18. | |
he'll so tackle the issues of his personal character to compare his | :33:18. | :33:22. | |
character with that of the Prime Minister -- he also. If you want to | :33:22. | :33:26. | |
know the difference between me and David Cameron, he is an easy way to | :33:26. | :33:31. | |
remember it. When it was Murdoch versus the McCanns, he took the side | :33:31. | :33:36. | |
of Murdoch. When it was a tobacco lobby against the cancer charities, | :33:36. | :33:39. | |
he took the side of the tobacco lobby. When it was the millionaires | :33:39. | :33:43. | |
who wanted the tax-cut versus people paying the bedroom tax, he took the | :33:44. | :33:46. | |
who wanted the tax-cut versus people side of the millionaires. Come to | :33:46. | :33:49. | |
think of it, he is an even easier way to remember it. David Cameron is | :33:49. | :33:53. | |
a Prime Minister who introduced the bedroom tax. I will be the Prime | :33:53. | :33:57. | |
Minister who repeals the bedroom tax. | :33:57. | :34:01. | |
Here's the thing about David Cameron. He may be strong at | :34:01. | :34:08. | |
standing up to the week, but he is always weak when it comes to | :34:08. | :34:14. | |
standing up against the strong. That is the difference between me and | :34:14. | :34:18. | |
David Cameron, so let's have that debate about leadership and | :34:18. | :34:24. | |
character and I relish that debate. Joining me now from Brighton, former | :34:24. | :34:28. | |
adviser to Tony Blair, John McTiernan. You used to be in the | :34:28. | :34:32. | |
vanguard of new Labour, that was then and this is no, it is over, | :34:32. | :34:38. | |
isn't it? It is a different time. New Labour was for its time and what | :34:38. | :34:42. | |
Ed Miliband is doing is for our time. I think you know, there are a | :34:42. | :34:48. | |
lot of angry, grumpy middle-class people out there in Britain that are | :34:48. | :34:55. | |
being appealed to buy UKIP but are also available to Ed's populism of | :34:55. | :35:03. | |
the left. I think what was done previously is not available and Ed | :35:03. | :35:12. | |
Miliband has chosen to gone back and where he has and attacking energy | :35:12. | :35:18. | |
companies, very few members of the public will be saying energy | :35:18. | :35:22. | |
companies are great and my bills are fine and I completely understand. | :35:22. | :35:25. | |
You think Ed Miliband is going for the centre ground? Yes. The squeezed | :35:25. | :35:32. | |
middle, who are the centre ground of politics, they are angry and they | :35:32. | :35:35. | |
are detached from politics and looking for somewhere to go. The | :35:35. | :35:41. | |
propositions that Ed Miliband made yesterday that will get people back | :35:41. | :35:43. | |
to work or building houses, houses for your kids, all of it adds up to | :35:43. | :35:51. | |
appeal to middle England, middle-class England, saying we can | :35:51. | :35:55. | |
be radical and we can break through this and to say what David Cameron | :35:55. | :35:58. | |
has done, in my view incredibly stupid, is abandon optimism. He is a | :35:58. | :36:03. | |
pessimist about Britain and Ed Miliband has said we can do better. | :36:03. | :36:09. | |
It has allowed Ed to be the positive optimistic person in politics and | :36:09. | :36:12. | |
yesterday was a very important speech, the battle ground for the | :36:12. | :36:16. | |
next election. Not of us have heard Mr Cameron next week, so we don't | :36:16. | :36:21. | |
know if that is true. Let me ask you this, do you think that Mr | :36:21. | :36:25. | |
Miliband's speech, where he did lay out a new set of policies that were | :36:25. | :36:28. | |
distinctive policies, they were more on the left and New Labour in a | :36:29. | :36:35. | |
number of ways, is that the start up fight back and do you expect to see | :36:35. | :36:40. | |
a widening once again of Labour's lead in the polls and an improvement | :36:40. | :36:45. | |
in Mr Miliband's personal ratings? Look, I think on the polls, Labour | :36:45. | :36:50. | |
is going to stay there or thereabouts on 38% between now and | :36:50. | :36:55. | |
the next election. With the Tories on 34, Labour wins, particularly | :36:55. | :36:59. | |
with UKIP in the game. Labour has got the votes it needing -- needs | :36:59. | :37:08. | |
and I suspect we will hold them. Talking about Ed Miliband's | :37:08. | :37:11. | |
character, this is the card but the Tories want to play, but he doesn't | :37:11. | :37:16. | |
look like a Prime Minister. The truth is that that has resonance, it | :37:16. | :37:19. | |
comes up in the groups. Ed knows that, that his wife he said | :37:19. | :37:22. | |
yesterday it is not just what you look like, it is how you act -- that | :37:22. | :37:28. | |
is why he said. So it is OK to be strong against the week but what | :37:28. | :37:31. | |
about talking about vested interests? He made a big call on | :37:31. | :37:38. | |
Murdoch which was right and popular. He's not just saying what you look | :37:38. | :37:42. | |
like, conceding that he does not look like a traditional Prime | :37:42. | :37:45. | |
Minister, it is how you act as well, it is words and values and actions. | :37:45. | :37:50. | |
I think Ed was never going to get to the next election without addressing | :37:50. | :37:54. | |
this issue and he has decided to do it in this way, conceding that you | :37:54. | :37:58. | |
don't think I might be the Prime Minister at the moment, but let me | :37:58. | :38:05. | |
show you what I will do and let me remind you of my actions and my | :38:05. | :38:08. | |
character. It is very similar to what happened in Australia when Tony | :38:08. | :38:10. | |
Abbott was never the preferred Prime Minister until the very end of the | :38:10. | :38:14. | |
campaign, but his party was in the lead for a long time. It is staking | :38:14. | :38:19. | |
out a ground to fight on. I don't think the Tories are going to ditch | :38:19. | :38:24. | |
Mr Cameron the way that Labour in Australia ditched their leader just | :38:24. | :38:27. | |
a few weeks before the election, so I am not sure the comparison is | :38:27. | :38:32. | |
relevant. I have to say, I want this clarity. It seems to me, I maybe | :38:32. | :38:37. | |
wrong, but you are saying that yesterday's speech we should regard | :38:37. | :38:42. | |
a watershed in how we now look at Labour's fortunes going up to the | :38:42. | :38:48. | |
election? Yesterday's speech, taken with Ed Balls's speech, what has now | :38:48. | :38:53. | |
been set out is the Labour strategy for the time between now and the | :38:53. | :38:57. | |
election. Labour's mission, Labour's values and the ground on | :38:57. | :39:01. | |
which Labour are going to fight. That is absolutely clear, so it is a | :39:01. | :39:07. | |
watershed. Ed Miliband is not Tony Blair, but he can only be the leader | :39:07. | :39:13. | |
he needs to be to become Prime Minister by not being mesmerised by | :39:13. | :39:17. | |
the past. That was Tony's great strength, he was never in thrall to | :39:17. | :39:22. | |
any previous leader. We looked at Thatcher and moved beyond. Ed | :39:22. | :39:25. | |
Miliband has looked at Tony and moved beyond. And I think it was a | :39:25. | :39:31. | |
watershed. Let me bring in Deborah Mattinson, who has been listening | :39:31. | :39:35. | |
here. John says that the polls may well stay quite static with Labour | :39:35. | :39:39. | |
on about 38, the Tories on about 34. They vary a bit, but that is a rough | :39:39. | :39:45. | |
average of where we are. At this stage in the political cycle, if you | :39:45. | :39:48. | |
were a Labour strategist, wouldn't you want to be a bit more ahead? | :39:48. | :39:53. | |
Wouldn't you want a comfort zone, a marginal safety? Because quite | :39:53. | :39:57. | |
often, the polls narrow as you go into an election. Historically, you | :39:57. | :40:01. | |
would have done, but that was then and this is now. Some of the points | :40:01. | :40:05. | |
that John makes about the different electoral landscape now are | :40:05. | :40:09. | |
absolutely spot on. If we look at some of the polling that has been | :40:09. | :40:15. | |
conducted recently, for instance launch Ashcroft's massive poll, the | :40:15. | :40:17. | |
only guy spending serious money on polling and looking at the margins, | :40:17. | :40:23. | |
he concluded at a Labour fringe meeting saying this, saying that it | :40:23. | :40:26. | |
Labour stayed exactly as they are, they couldn't do anything but win. | :40:27. | :40:32. | |
That is axiomatic, because they are ahead in the polls, that is like | :40:32. | :40:36. | |
saying night follows day. Of course if they stay where they are, they | :40:36. | :40:40. | |
will win. But he said that looking at the electoral landscape right now | :40:40. | :40:47. | |
is the most likely outcome, the key has -- because you have the right of | :40:47. | :40:54. | |
centre voter divided with UKIP, so therefore if Ed's primary task is to | :40:54. | :40:59. | |
hang on to, as it were the left of centre voters and get them to turn | :40:59. | :41:00. | |
hang on to, as it were the left of out, that is the start point. Of | :41:00. | :41:04. | |
course, he would hope to do better, he needs to be more ambitious. John | :41:04. | :41:10. | |
MacKinnon, thank you be joining us. It was Labour's idea that earlier | :41:10. | :41:13. | |
this week the shadow Chancellor Ed Balls appeared to question the | :41:13. | :41:18. | |
party's ongoing support for HS2, the new high-speed rail line that will | :41:18. | :41:22. | |
link north and south. He said speaking £50 billion, what it is | :41:22. | :41:25. | |
projected to become a may not be a good idea. We sent Adam out with his | :41:25. | :41:30. | |
balls to see whether it should be full steam ahead for the project or | :41:30. | :41:34. | |
was it time to slam on the brakes? The message from Labour this week on | :41:34. | :41:39. | |
HS2 has been a bit mixed, but what will delegates here think about it | :41:39. | :41:42. | |
could will they want to construct it or cancel it? | :41:42. | :41:46. | |
I say construct. The southern end of the West Coast mainline is full, so | :41:46. | :41:50. | |
if you're going to build a new one, it may as well be that. I don't | :41:50. | :41:54. | |
think it is the right one. I think we need a massive investment in | :41:54. | :42:02. | |
railways but not this railway. Speakergreen issue can be is is it | :42:02. | :42:09. | |
part of a wider transport strategy... -- or is it just part of | :42:09. | :42:13. | |
a build between London and Manchester. My own personal one | :42:13. | :42:20. | |
would be the dream. I'm going to go with HS2, because places like China | :42:20. | :42:23. | |
and other countries, they have amazing networks and are miles ahead | :42:23. | :42:27. | |
and we will be left behind in the race for infrastructure. | :42:27. | :42:33. | |
I just think £50 billion could be better spent on schools and | :42:33. | :42:36. | |
hospitals. But it is £50 billion better spent on schools and | :42:36. | :42:41. | |
over loads and loads of years. Isn't it? 20 years? Yes, well, I was still | :42:41. | :42:48. | |
rather spend it on that, but then I am in the south. You have plenty of | :42:48. | :42:53. | |
railways. Any friends in Manchester? Not really, and I probably won't get | :42:53. | :42:59. | |
any after this. It is causing widespread devastation in Camden, we | :42:59. | :43:04. | |
are losing 480 homes, a school and open space. It will have a massive | :43:04. | :43:09. | |
detrimental impact on Camden Town, a large destination for tourists. You | :43:09. | :43:13. | |
think Ed Balls will cancel it? It sounds as though he once do. Will he | :43:13. | :43:20. | |
get a slap on the wrist? He needs to be reminded that it is about | :43:20. | :43:29. | |
capacity and the future. You are anti it? Why cancel it? It is not | :43:29. | :43:33. | |
going to do anything in the north. They wouldn't build it in the north. | :43:34. | :43:37. | |
They use it in the north to say you can have 20 minutes on a train to | :43:37. | :43:46. | |
Birmingham. There will be a complication on the railways around | :43:46. | :43:51. | |
the country. My friend lives in Manchester and says it will be | :43:51. | :43:54. | |
handy. Some high-speed balls are escaping. This document is basically | :43:54. | :44:09. | |
the latest polling on HS2. I know your balls are extremely scientific | :44:09. | :44:11. | |
but I think this might be slightly more, showing that 60% of Labour | :44:12. | :44:16. | |
voters are against HS2. So basically, we should just throw in | :44:16. | :44:23. | |
this piece of paper and go home? Oh, dear. That is quite a shocking | :44:23. | :44:30. | |
development. I think we will call it a day, it is impossible to work out | :44:30. | :44:32. | |
which ball went in which box. I a day, it is impossible to work out | :44:32. | :44:36. | |
would say it is slightly in favour of construction. The only thing that | :44:36. | :44:40. | |
is getting cancelled here is the box. | :44:40. | :44:45. | |
What a tragic end to the mood box. He is upset. | :44:45. | :44:48. | |
Don't worry, we still love you, Adam. Don't you worry about that | :44:48. | :44:53. | |
nasty little box, we will get you a new one? | :44:53. | :44:55. | |
Giving people picked them up for him just left them? Or slipped over on | :44:55. | :45:00. | |
them? It will survive! Deborah Mattinson, due think it is over for | :45:00. | :45:07. | |
HS2? What surprised me in focus groups recently is when I have asked | :45:08. | :45:11. | |
people about the economy and where savings can be made, and I haven't | :45:11. | :45:16. | |
set out to ask them what they think about HS2, they have just told me | :45:16. | :45:22. | |
that they question the value, but they are worried about the scale of | :45:22. | :45:26. | |
it going up. They question the value at a time when everyone is being | :45:26. | :45:30. | |
asked to tighten their belts. One thing that is quite interesting is | :45:30. | :45:35. | |
people are starting to compare it with the Millennium Dome. What does | :45:35. | :45:37. | |
this say about the Government, that they are spending this money? We | :45:37. | :45:41. | |
think it is a waste of time, they are not listening. Does that mean | :45:41. | :45:45. | |
that Ed Balls and Rachel Reeves's change of tone, whether they are | :45:45. | :45:48. | |
slowly slamming on the brakes, because they are listening to the | :45:48. | :45:51. | |
focus groups or is it just politically opportunist? They | :45:51. | :46:03. | |
could, with Tory rebels, defeated? They are looking to see where the | :46:03. | :46:07. | |
best value is and they are right to query it. They were so behind this | :46:07. | :46:12. | |
scheme in the first place. Danny query it. They were so behind this | :46:12. | :46:15. | |
Alexander has just been asked about it and he has said, in 30 years | :46:15. | :46:20. | |
time, people will ask what the fuss was about. We need it and it must go | :46:20. | :46:27. | |
ahead. They are not saying it now. Right now, people are looking at HS2 | :46:27. | :46:33. | |
and whilst they think it might be something that would be nice, they | :46:33. | :46:38. | |
are wondering, can we afford it? They will have a backlash in the | :46:38. | :46:42. | |
North, Labour councils have said they are very... The focus groups I | :46:42. | :46:53. | |
spoke to were not just in the South. Apparently John Prescott has been | :46:53. | :46:57. | |
against it but whether he has been so publicly explicit about it, have | :46:57. | :47:05. | |
not heard that. And he will definitely be categorised as being | :47:05. | :47:08. | |
from the north, I am quite sure of that. A short time ago, the Shadow | :47:08. | :47:16. | |
Home Secretary - Yvette Cooper - was addressing Conference. Let's have a | :47:16. | :47:20. | |
listen to what she had to say. This government is failing victims of | :47:20. | :47:24. | |
crime, undermining the police, dividing communities, failing to | :47:24. | :47:26. | |
deal with the challenges of the future, be it crime or immigration. | :47:26. | :47:31. | |
Turning their backs, walking away and looking for someone else to | :47:31. | :47:36. | |
blame. Remember their promise, that the big flagship reform of police | :47:36. | :47:40. | |
and crime commission elections would deliver a democratic mandate? And | :47:40. | :47:47. | |
just 15% of voters turned out. Where is Theresa May when the terror | :47:47. | :47:50. | |
just 15% of voters turned out. Where suspect goes missing? Or the border | :47:50. | :47:56. | |
controls collapse? Or the elections fall flat? Quick to claim credit | :47:56. | :48:01. | |
when things go right, strangely absent when things go wrong. | :48:01. | :48:06. | |
Decisions by Theresa May, Nick Clegg and David Cameron are undermining | :48:06. | :48:12. | |
our police and letting victims down. And Yvette Cooper joins us now from | :48:12. | :48:19. | |
Brighton. You mentioned that the low turnout of police commissioners, the | :48:19. | :48:22. | |
cost of the election, so we'll Labour scrapped the police | :48:22. | :48:31. | |
commissioners? -- will Labour scrapped. Lord Stevens is setting | :48:31. | :48:38. | |
out a long-term vision of policing, also looking at how you raise | :48:38. | :48:42. | |
policing standards, how you have stronger checks and balances and how | :48:42. | :48:47. | |
you make sure police can cope with the challenges of the 21st-century. | :48:47. | :48:50. | |
He is due to report before Christmas so we will await that and consider | :48:50. | :48:57. | |
his conclusions. He could advise that it is possible to scrap the PCC | :48:57. | :49:02. | |
's or keep them and you will follow that either way. We will have to | :49:02. | :49:10. | |
have a debate about his conclusions. We opposed the principle of them to | :49:10. | :49:14. | |
start with because we felt it was concentrating too much power in a | :49:14. | :49:18. | |
single person's hands and that more checks and balances were needed. We | :49:18. | :49:21. | |
single person's hands and that more are clear that reforms will be | :49:21. | :49:25. | |
needed but we will await the advice of John Stevens and the expert | :49:25. | :49:28. | |
commission he has gathered, which involves people from all over the | :49:28. | :49:32. | |
globe. Because we believe in public services and think you have got to | :49:32. | :49:34. | |
globe. Because we believe in public have a reform plan for the future, | :49:34. | :49:37. | |
especially when there are less resources around. When the coalition | :49:37. | :49:45. | |
started cutting the police service, you were planning to cut it as well | :49:45. | :49:49. | |
but they have cut it by Moore, you said policing in Britain faced a | :49:49. | :49:53. | |
perfect storm. We are halfway through the coalition government, | :49:53. | :49:58. | |
crime is continuing to fall, at its lowest level for many years, so | :49:58. | :50:03. | |
actually the cuts have and three had an effect, have they? That is what | :50:03. | :50:10. | |
Vic -- the cuts have not really had an effect. That is not what victims | :50:10. | :50:21. | |
think. The number of rape cases being referred to the prosecution | :50:21. | :50:24. | |
have dropped by a third, even though in fact the number of rape cases | :50:24. | :50:28. | |
reported to the police has been going up. I think you can see clear | :50:28. | :50:31. | |
evidence of victims being let down, going up. I think you can see clear | :50:31. | :50:35. | |
being failed. More criminals and abusers getting away with it. As a | :50:35. | :50:39. | |
result of there being fewer police officers and police officers being | :50:39. | :50:43. | |
stretched. The crime survey of England and Wales shows that despite | :50:43. | :50:48. | |
the cuts, offending is at its lowest level since spending began in 1981. | :50:48. | :50:59. | |
That includes any time during the 13 years when you were in power. There | :50:59. | :51:05. | |
has been a 20 year drop in crime and we welcome that and wanted to go | :51:05. | :51:08. | |
further. You see reductions in things like, side and burglary over | :51:08. | :51:12. | |
many years that we should all welcome. -- things like homicide and | :51:12. | :51:20. | |
burglary. The police are saying that crime is changing. What you are also | :51:20. | :51:24. | |
seeing, alongside reductions in crime like car theft, is an increase | :51:24. | :51:30. | |
in things like online crime on the credit card and identity fraud. | :51:30. | :51:35. | |
Because that is where we live our lives now and organised crime knows | :51:35. | :51:36. | |
Because that is where we live our that, too. That is where they are | :51:36. | :51:41. | |
heading. If you have ever had your credit cards scammed or your number | :51:41. | :51:45. | |
used by someone else, the bank sorts it out but they don't report it to | :51:46. | :51:49. | |
the police and often the victims don't report it either. A lot of | :51:49. | :51:53. | |
that is going unreported and the police are saying it is growing | :51:53. | :51:57. | |
exponentially and that is why we think much stronger action is | :51:57. | :52:01. | |
needed. Otherwise we will all pay a lot more as consumers. Do you | :52:01. | :52:08. | |
support the Fire Brigade strike? We want negotiations to continue and we | :52:08. | :52:11. | |
always think that is the right approach, that everybody should do | :52:11. | :52:12. | |
everything they can. It is a very approach, that everybody should do | :52:12. | :52:19. | |
difficult situation. Do you support them or not? We are urging all sides | :52:19. | :52:24. | |
to continue to negotiate and do everything they can to avoid | :52:24. | :52:27. | |
industrial action because it is always what happens when sides | :52:27. | :52:33. | |
failed to negotiate and do the right thing. Is it unfair to ask by on to | :52:33. | :52:43. | |
work until 60? -- to ask fireman? There are a lot of issues around | :52:43. | :52:48. | |
pension reform. We have supported increasing the retirement age but at | :52:48. | :52:51. | |
the same time, we also know there are some professions and occupations | :52:51. | :52:57. | |
where it is more difficult. We said in policing, there are issues in | :52:57. | :53:01. | |
policing that should be treated in a different way. However, there should | :53:02. | :53:07. | |
also be support when policemen are injured in the line of duty and it | :53:07. | :53:14. | |
has similar parallels with fire. I did not ask you about police. Is it | :53:14. | :53:24. | |
unfair for fireman to be asked to work until 60? We think there are | :53:24. | :53:31. | |
problems with the approach of the government and why the government | :53:31. | :53:34. | |
and the SPU should be negotiating to find a reasonable way forward -- and | :53:34. | :53:40. | |
the Fire Brigade union. They have had a long-standing | :53:40. | :53:49. | |
arrangement and we are not proposing to change that. You don't think that | :53:49. | :53:57. | |
would be right? We have had long-standing industrial relations | :53:57. | :54:03. | |
with different kinds of professions. Police don't have the right to | :54:03. | :54:06. | |
strike but they have arrangements where you can't make compulsory | :54:06. | :54:11. | |
severance. Thank you, sorry to rush you, we have run out of time. | :54:11. | :54:15. | |
No conference week would be complete without the views of sketch-writer | :54:15. | :54:18. | |
Quentin Letts. He's been following events for us in Brighton. His | :54:18. | :54:26. | |
verdict? Well, spine tingling! # He the monster mash. | :54:26. | :54:33. | |
# It was a graveyard smash. # It caught on in a flash. | :54:33. | :54:40. | |
# Heeded the monster mash. The sun may be shining in Brighton. | :54:40. | :54:48. | |
It feels as though Halloween may have come early this year because in | :54:48. | :54:52. | |
the fall behind me it has been echoing to the ghostly cries of | :54:52. | :54:56. | |
spirits past. Enough to give poor old Ed Miliband the willies. The | :54:56. | :55:03. | |
week has been dominated by the spectre of Damian McBride, even | :55:03. | :55:06. | |
though he has been politically deceased since 2009, when he quit as | :55:06. | :55:11. | |
Gordon Brown's spin doctor. He has returned with spine tingling, spin | :55:11. | :55:16. | |
tingling tales of treachery in the heart of new Labour. It is something | :55:16. | :55:23. | |
I deeply regret. Equally identical was alone in politics over the last | :55:23. | :55:28. | |
decades in some of the ways I operated and I hope one of the | :55:28. | :55:31. | |
effects of writing this book is that people can see the truth of some of | :55:31. | :55:34. | |
these operations laid bare, learn from that and make it clear that | :55:34. | :55:38. | |
those things should never happen again. Ed Miliband has been out and | :55:38. | :55:43. | |
about but it has felt retro. Delegates have been assured that the | :55:43. | :55:48. | |
wicked welfare reforms will be exercised. There has been a lot of | :55:48. | :55:52. | |
bashing of Tory millionaires. Ed Miliband even breathe life into the | :55:52. | :55:59. | |
old corpse called socialism. Why won't you bring back socialism? That | :55:59. | :56:06. | |
is what we are doing. It says on our party card, democratic socialism. | :56:06. | :56:09. | |
That is about a country that works fall and not just for some. The | :56:09. | :56:14. | |
corridors are full of ancient bogey men such as Alistair Campbell and | :56:14. | :56:22. | |
Charlie Whelan. Len McCluskey took on bridge because Ed Miliband walked | :56:22. | :56:25. | |
out, just as he was about to start his speech. I am sorry Ed Miliband | :56:25. | :56:31. | |
has left the platform. There are those in our party fearful of a | :56:31. | :56:37. | |
prospect of a bad headline in the Daily Mail. I say to them, you will | :56:38. | :56:44. | |
never, ever appease the right wing media and should try the means you | :56:44. | :56:52. | |
and our party -- and to try to means -- Dean means you. | :56:52. | :56:58. | |
Ed Balls made a speech that was more akin to one of those naughty seaside | :56:58. | :57:05. | |
postcards. Involved a tale concerning the Prime Minister and | :57:05. | :57:09. | |
his beach towel. Changing into his swimming trunks, behind that Mickey | :57:09. | :57:15. | |
Mouse towel, captured on camera 's, unflattering pictures spread across | :57:15. | :57:22. | |
the natural -- national press. I thought for a prime minister, it was | :57:22. | :57:29. | |
a surprisingly small towel. Let us all agreed, after the last three | :57:30. | :57:33. | |
years, the sooner David Cameron throws in the towel, the better. | :57:33. | :57:38. | |
Labour's very own Kenneth Williams, having a go about David Cameron | :57:38. | :57:43. | |
about the size of his majority for is a bit does make you wonder what | :57:43. | :57:46. | |
will happen next week. See you in Manchester. | :57:46. | :57:49. | |
There's just time before we go to find out the answer to our quiz. | :57:49. | :57:55. | |
Earlier we asked you what happened next while Damian McBride was | :57:55. | :57:59. | |
waiting to do a live TV interview yesterday morning. Deborah, I think | :57:59. | :58:05. | |
you know. There was a bit of a scrap. | :58:05. | :58:24. | |
the lovely dog is actually attacking his own master. Maybe he had not | :58:24. | :58:44. | |
been fed. That's all for today. Thanks to our guests - especially | :58:44. | :58:47. | |
our Guest of the Day, Deborah Mattinson. The One O'clock News is | :58:47. | :58:51. | |
starting over on BBC One now. Jo will be here at noon tomorrow with | :58:51. | :58:55. | |
all the big political stories of the day and I will be back after | :58:55. | :58:59. | |
Question Time tomorrow night with This Week. Do join me then. Bye-bye. | :59:00. | :59:02. |