Conference Special Daily Politics


Conference Special

Andrew Neil and Jo Coburn with all the latest news from the Labour Party conference in Brighton, including an interview with the shadow home secretary Yvette Cooper.


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Transcript


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Afternoon, folks, welcome to the Daily Politics. This is a conference

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special on the Labour Party conference.

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Price controls on energy, land grabs, higher taxes for big business

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- have Labour found a winning formula with their populist pitch to

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voters? Well, his wife loves him. And the

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Labour party have produced these photographs to prove it. But what do

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the British people think of Mr Miliband?

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Ed Balls is sounding sceptical. We ask Labour Party activists if it's

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time to pull the plug on HS2. And Quentin Letts gives us his take

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on Labour's week at the seaside. The conference hall has been echoing to

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the ghostly cries of spirits past, enough to give poor old Ed Mili the

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willies. All that in the next hour. And with

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as for the duration today is Deborah Mattinson, who used to do opinion

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polls for Gordon Brown, and has the scars to show it. She now runs a

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consultancy called Britain Thinks. Let's start with Ed Miliband's

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speech, which he says has changed the face of Britain. He spoke for

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more than an hour. His catchphrase, repeated 17 times, "Britain can do

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better than this". Amongst the policies he announced, Labour would

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introduce a 22 month freeze on gas and electricity prices. Not just per

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household but the businesses as well. We will talk a bit more later

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about Mr Miliband's position in the political debate and popularity or

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lack of. Give us your view on the speech. He spoke for an hour without

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notes last year, so we knew he could do that but last year, the speech

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was well delivered but very abstract, very hard for politician

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subsequently to connect that with voters. What he has managed to

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achieve this time is how very concrete, what I would call symbolic

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policies, symbolic of his take on the world. You may like it, you may

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not. Nobody can say, they don't know where he stands. And actually,

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nobody can say the parties are all the same. And I think he has

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achieved that and he is achieving a debate, because the big challenge is

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how you get what happens in the conference hall out there, because

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the voters do not watch. It is right to think, and all the main political

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leaders do it now across the democratic world, every one of these

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propositions, for example, the 20 democratic world, every one of these

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month freeze on gas and electricity prices, would have been put to focus

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groups. It most certainly will have been and I gather that in the focus

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groups where they were tested, the ratings were of the scale. And I can

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certainly see that, I haven't tested that particular policy but over the

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years have done a lot of work and I know that one of the big things that

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people are concerned about is energy prices and prices going up. They

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can't understand that in the context of the profits that those companies

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make. There is no question that it has been a popular announcement. And

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he has made it clear whose side he is on, I think. Good. Jo. Let's get

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a sense of the mood at conference. We can talk to Sam Coates from the

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Times and Rafael Behr from the New Statesman. Sam Coates, they loved

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the speech in the hall, did you love it? Well he achieved what he wanted

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to, to define himself very much as the centre-left of British politics.

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He wanted to put clear water between himself and David Cameron and make

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clear that he is on the left of British politics. He succeeded. What

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he also did was designed to deploy himself against all sorts of

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organisations and bits of society that normally you need endorsement

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from. The CBI have essentially disowned Labour now, as have other

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business groups, as they think that Labour has basically said they are

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not involved with enterprise. That was always the risk, wasn't it,

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Rafael Behr, Ed Miliband setting himself on the sides of voters,

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promising them something better if they vote for Labour in 2015. Does

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he risk being painted as they vote for Labour in 2015. Does

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anti-business? Anti-wealth, in that sense, which many people will argue

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is needed if the recovery is going to continue? There is certainly that

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risk, although I would say clearly he has gone into it with his eyes

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open. If you speak to people around Ed Miliband, they knew this was

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going to be a big fight and they chose distinctly to set themselves

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up on the side of consumers against what they see as vested interest. I

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know there is a crisis in Ed Miliband's brand as a leader, people

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don't take in that seriously as a potential Prime Minister and one of

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the things he was trying to do yesterday was changed in framework

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and parameters of what people think as a leader. He was saying you may

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think David Cameron is strong but he is strong against the week and I

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will be strong standing up to the strong, in this case the energy

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will be strong standing up to the companies or the banks or whoever

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is. Labour knew they were going to get attacked by parable people but

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that is kind of the point. What about the other big point, the

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energy bill freeze for 20 months. That has captured people's

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attentions, they are picking over the details of whether it will work

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all the lights will go out, but it was a brave, radical move. Yes, of

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course, if you ask people if they want to pay less for their energy

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bills, they will say yes, so it is a popular policy, but as far as energy

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is concerned, he has to do three things in the next few years if he

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becomes Prime Minister. One is to deliver the price freeze on the Open

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market. The second is to hit zero carbon targets and then to nature

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there is a new generation of power stations and ensure investment takes

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place, in a world where energy stations and ensure investment takes

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companies are global and can choose to invest their money in other

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countries. So I think he has three tasks but he has only chosen to talk

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about one of them. What happens if in 2017, the reforms not work out as

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he hoped, there will be a big negative electoral dividend.

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Already, we are talking about what happens in 2017 if he is elected,

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but this is already what people are talking about, the practical reality

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of a Labour Government and what it would do, so this is a win for Ed

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Miliband already. From that point of view, there are all sorts of detail

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they want to play out but my sense from speaking to people around Ed

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Miliband is they knew this was coming, they are very prepared to

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take this as a campaign onto the doorstep and turn it into leaflets

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and someone in his office gave me an ice cube, to represent a price

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freeze. They are turning this into a three-dimensional project to take

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out on the road, which is a criticism levelled against them in

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the past, after the one Nation speech last year, there was nothing

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to follow it up. This is what they call follow-through. Do think there

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has been a psychological change? A shift in the way people are looking

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at Ed Miliband and perhaps a future Labour Government? Sam? Speak that

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is what they want. One of the most interesting things is how the

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Blairites are discussing what happened yesterday. I spoke to one

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of them and one of them said they were not sure it was a big policy.

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Of Jim already has plans to start price controls -- Ofgem already have

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plans. They are talking about a price cap and on the headline

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grabbing land policy, it was said but have you not heard of compulsory

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purchase orders? I wonder if we are getting carried away with the

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rhetoric of the speech in the way that Ed Miliband wanted and

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rhetoric of the speech in the way completely forgetting that we are

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not that far away from an awful lot of these things been possible at the

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moment. Rafael Behr, how do you think Team Cameron will or should

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respond? Certainly they need to be quite careful not to go out

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respond? Certainly they need to be cheerleading for the big energy

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companies, which are generally very unpopular. My understanding is that

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next week they are not going to use their conference to rebut anything

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Labour have been saying, they are just going to say they have a record

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of fixing the economy, they are working on it and it has been tough

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but they are making the right decisions. They will save their

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attacks on this kind of stuff and addressing the cost of living until

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the Autumn statements. They will have a bit of fun, they like

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attacking Ed Miliband as a lefty. I'm sure they will mention red Ed

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more than once. Now it's time for our daily quiz.

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Today's question is what happened next? You might have heard former

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Labour spin doctor Damian McBride has been doing the media rounds in

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Brighton this week. I am told he has a book to sell! Heery was preparing

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for a live interview on ITV yesterday morning that here he was.

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So what happened next? At the end of the show, Deborah will give us the

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correct answer. And I bet you know. I do know.

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The days of Labour schmoozing company bosses with prawn sandwiches

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are over. In his speech yesterday, Ed Miliband had a much tougher

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message for businesses. His hope is that voters will see him as a kind

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of Robin Hood figure, taking from rich companies to help ordinary

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people. But what exactly does he have in mind? And will it work? Jo

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has more. The first target was the energy

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companies, with the promise to freeze bills until 2017 if Labour

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wins the election. "The companies aren't going to like

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this," he said, "because it will cost them more, but they've been

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overcharging people for too long in a market that doesn't work."

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He also took aim at property developers who own land with

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planning permission but won't build. They were told it would be a case of

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"use the land or lose the land". Large companies will not get the

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corporation tax cut they were Large companies will not get the

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expecting if Labour win. Ed Miliband accused them of short-changing small

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businesses and promised it was something he would put right.

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And he said that, under Labour, companies would face a higher

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minimum wage to defeat low pay. Joining us now to discuss some of

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these ideas is John Cridland, Director-General of the CBI. John

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Cridland, welcome to the programme. Isn't Ed Miliband right to say that

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the minimum wage hasn't kept up the cost of living? It hasn't, so should

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it be increased? It hasn't up because employers and trade unions

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on the low pay commission took the view that it was better to keep

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people in their job earning something than pricing them out of

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employment. Those are the real hard choices. Do you think it would have

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that effect if the minimum wage was put up, increased, in two years'

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time? Absolutely, because the people on the minimum wage are the ones

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with the least skills and police productivity. The best thing is to

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get them into the job and with the best employers, progress up the

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business once they have a foot in the door. I minimum wage is price

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people out of work. -- a high minimum wage. That is not to say

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that as the economy improves, wages won't go up, they will. But do we

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need the Government to control wages, prices, assets and taxing

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businesses more? Labour would argue we are in a cost of living crisis

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and many people are feeling the pain, even as growth returns. As you

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have admitted, wages are not keeping up with inflation. Is it right the

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taxpayers should subsidise people on low play because employers will not

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pay them enough -- Lope? Employers pay what they can afford to pay

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according to the income they get from consumers. If a shoeshine on

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the high Street -- a shoe shop on a high street as wages going up by 1p

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per hour, the pass the cost on to who? It is not one particular thing

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in his speech that disappointed me, it was all other things. Added

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together, this is a real setback for Labour's pro-credentials. --

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pro-enterprise credentials. We want Labour to speak for all business,

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not beta sub and then say it is speaking for small business and

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attacking large business. But all businesses are not the same, and big

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businesses have arguably been sitting on big piles of cash, they

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haven't been investing. Small businesses have been struggling. Are

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you saying they are not the lifeline as the economy -- of the economy, as

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Ed Miliband and David Cameron has said, and have not been able to get

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credit from the banks? I speak for all businesses. The vast majority of

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CBI members are small, I have a medium-sized companies and large

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companies, and they speak with one voice. They like the public, like

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the citizen and consumer, have had a tough time. They make decisions on

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the basis of keeping their business afloat. The Government is there to

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set minimum standards. If you begin interfering in price, property and

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wage as well as tax and you push business taxes up. How do you expect

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that to have a positive impact on wealth creation, job creation and

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more jobs on the high street? Are you saying big business cannot

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afford a delayed reduction in corporate tax but small businesses

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can afford to pay business rates which are way beyond their means? I

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am pleased that the Labour Party is focused on business rates. The CBI

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is focused on reducing business focused on business rates. The CBI

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rates, but I don't think it is the right call to fund that through an

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increase in corporation tax. It is a delayed reaction. It is an increase

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over what business has been told by the current Government, it would be

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in 2015. If business believes that corporation tax is going to be at

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20p, it has more retaining earnings to invest in factories, jobs and

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increasing wages. If it goes up to 21p, it has less money to help with

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living standards. John Cridland, thank you.

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living standards. John Cridland, We're joined now from Brighton by

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the Shadow Education Secretary Stephen Twigg. Thank you be joining

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us. Hello, Andrew. Let's stick with the gas and electricity price

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freeze. Undoubtedly a very popular policy to announce, people will like

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it and they will think that gas bills are too high. Let me ask you

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this, if the energy market in Britain is as dysfunctional as your

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party is claiming it to be, why does Britain have some of the lowest gas

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and electricity prices in Europe? We have seen a massive increase in gas

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and electricity prices. The wholesale price of gas and

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electricity goes up, the retail price goes up bad when it falls we

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electricity goes up, the retail have not seen the same fall. The

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market is not functioning properly and this is a reformed to make it

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function properly. I understand there are bits where it could be

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much improved and it does not work properly. But if it is as bad as you

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say, why are gas and lectures are two prices among the lowest in

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Europe? -- and electricity prices? I don't think it is the issue when we

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have seen enormous increases and we have seen increases in the profits

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of the big six companies. The consumers are having to pay more and

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that is what we have to sort out. This is a 20 month freeze, if Labour

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wins in 2015, so we can sort out the gas and electricity market. The

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Ofgem figures show that on electricity prices we have the third

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lowest in western Europe. Only Finland, France and Greece have

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lower prices. On gas prices, we are the cheapest, by a huge amount. Is

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it suggested that there is not scope for us to reform the market? There

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is always scope but my point to you is that if the market is functioning

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so badly, why do we do better than almost anybody else in Europe?

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But we can do better still. Countries like France, what are they

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doing right? We have a market that simply isn't working. The difference

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between Paris and London is very small. The reality for families,

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hard-pressed families, the reality is they have seen these big rises,

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even when the wholesale price has been falling. They haven't been

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getting the benefit. There must be something going wrong. It is not a

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proper, competitive market. We want to reform the energy market so it is

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properly competitive and consumers benefit, it must make sense. It is

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May 2015, you have won the election, you bring in a gas and elected to

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price freeze. It is October 2015 and the Middle East is in chaos, or your

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prices spike, gas prices spike, what do you do then -- or you'll prices

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spike. It is a very hypothetical question

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and if they prices happens, you have to address that. The reality is the

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big six are making enormous profits and not passing on the benefits to

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customers and the market needs to be reformed. A crisis may happen but

:18:30.:18:33.

the reality is they are hoarding these enormous profits. What is the

:18:33.:18:40.

average rate of return on capital of one of the big six? I don't know the

:18:40.:18:48.

answer. How can you claim they are making big profits? Are you saying

:18:48.:18:51.

they're not making big profits? Everyone knows they are making big

:18:51.:18:55.

profits. You don't, you can't tell me. , police -- companies like

:18:55.:19:03.

Centrica are often the ones who invest the least. I don't think the

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idea is -- of less investment is borne out by the fact. It is about

:19:09.:19:13.

reforming the market and that is good for consumers. It Centrica is

:19:13.:19:18.

making such huge profits, what is their return on investments? You are

:19:18.:19:25.

asking me the same question. I have said I do not know how to answer

:19:25.:19:30.

that question. It is about consumers getting their fair share. You are

:19:30.:19:34.

making claims about the company and you don't know what they make. I

:19:34.:19:35.

think you need to do your homework. you don't know what they make. I

:19:35.:19:41.

We have done our homework. We published a document yesterday

:19:41.:19:46.

setting out in great detail the basis for these plans. These are

:19:46.:19:50.

well thought through plans and we have taken very sound advice. Let me

:19:50.:19:56.

tell you this, the return on investment in Centrica is lower than

:19:56.:20:02.

the return on investment at Tesco. So why don't you introduce food

:20:02.:20:08.

price controls? Come on, energy prices have gone up enormously. So

:20:08.:20:15.

have food prices. You can't draw a sound parallel. It is a completely

:20:15.:20:21.

different scenario. Let me move on. Minimum wage. Is Labour going to

:20:21.:20:27.

increase the minimum wage? The minimum wage needs to be

:20:28.:20:31.

strengthened and Ed Miliband has strengthened out ways to do that.

:20:31.:20:36.

Increasingly finds for those who don't pay the minimum wage. --

:20:37.:20:38.

increasing the finds. One of the new things we have said

:20:38.:20:49.

is that in some sectors, it would be possible to have a minimum wage

:20:49.:20:52.

higher than the national minimum wage and we want that to be

:20:52.:20:55.

considered and we are going to look into that. Strength and is a

:20:55.:21:00.

different verb from increase, will Labour increase the minimum wage --

:21:00.:21:08.

strengthen is a different verb. It has increased less than the general

:21:08.:21:15.

rate of wages. We have a low pay commission that we set up to

:21:15.:21:21.

independently determine whether the minimum wage goes up. We have said

:21:21.:21:25.

there are sectors where it could be afforded to pay a higher minimum

:21:25.:21:28.

wage and we would look at how that would operate. On this land grab you

:21:28.:21:33.

are talking about, taking land back from developers who haven't built on

:21:33.:21:37.

that land, can you explain how it would work best mark would you

:21:37.:21:43.

compulsory purchase the land? You have to pay market rate? Would the

:21:43.:21:50.

government by the land? We want to strengthen the role for local

:21:50.:21:53.

communities including local government, that does include

:21:53.:21:57.

greater use of compulsory purchase. We have announced April to pull on

:21:57.:22:01.

this and we need to consult further on the detail to get it right. It

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cannot be right at a time and we have a housing crisis in this

:22:05.:22:09.

country, people unable to afford to buy, a shortage of housing for rent,

:22:09.:22:13.

that we have big developers hoarding land, waiting for the value to go

:22:13.:22:18.

up, when people are unable to get a home. What evidence do you have that

:22:18.:22:23.

big developers are hoarding land? We have evidence from local authorities

:22:23.:22:29.

and a whole range of organisations. What studies have you done? What

:22:29.:22:35.

study shows this? We have not commissioned our own study but there

:22:35.:22:39.

has been researched by housing organisations like Shelter that

:22:39.:22:43.

campaign on homelessness issues, the local government Association, this

:22:43.:22:50.

is a sensible, practical, concrete measure to try to ensure we can get

:22:50.:22:52.

house building up. You mentioned local authorities, the

:22:52.:23:06.

local government authority which covers all authorities did a study

:23:06.:23:10.

of this in 2011, it is called the Glen Egan report. It found there was

:23:10.:23:12.

not hoarding. Half of the homes were Glen Egan report. It found there was

:23:12.:23:21.

under construction, 83,000 were social housing. They were awaiting

:23:21.:23:27.

government money for starting them for the bid found no evidence of

:23:27.:23:31.

hoarding and neither did the OS to study under your government in 2008.

:23:31.:23:41.

-- the Office of Fair Trading study. That was five years ago, things have

:23:41.:23:47.

got a lot worse. I was in Oxford last week talking to people from

:23:47.:23:50.

Oxford City Council who were talking about this exact issue and

:23:50.:23:54.

suggesting the kind of issue that Ed Miliband has set out. I think the

:23:54.:23:59.

evidence is there but it is right that we consult to make sure we

:23:59.:24:02.

commend this properly. Thanks for joining us.

:24:02.:24:08.

And we're joined now by Angela Knight of Energy UK - the

:24:08.:24:12.

organisation that represents energy companies. Welcome to the programme.

:24:12.:24:16.

Ed Miliband is right to say that the energy market is not functioning

:24:16.:24:20.

properly, isn't he? I don't think he is but that doesn't mean you can't

:24:20.:24:26.

make it function better. The gas market works extremely well, the

:24:26.:24:30.

electricity market, there has been a lot of intervention. Some of the

:24:30.:24:33.

initiatives and policy issues have rather skewed the market. The

:24:33.:24:36.

questions we have to answer, and there is some work on this going on

:24:37.:24:42.

right now, is how can one improve the markets? It is easy to say they

:24:42.:24:46.

are bust, they are not bust but what improvements can be made? One of the

:24:46.:24:52.

improvements is if the energy generating companies were forced to

:24:52.:24:54.

split from electricity Supply Company is, that would be fairer --

:24:54.:25:03.

letters to supply companies -- electricity supply companies. They

:25:03.:25:07.

cannot compete with companies who generate their own electricity. I

:25:07.:25:13.

don't agree with you. Companies trying to enter the market say they

:25:13.:25:19.

cannot break into the market. If you look at what is happening on the

:25:19.:25:22.

market, whether you are an integrated company or not, the

:25:22.:25:25.

electricity market is extraordinary liquid. It is because it alleges it

:25:25.:25:32.

is going on to the market and it is available to be purchased -- it is

:25:32.:25:36.

because electricity is going onto the market. The question is whether

:25:36.:25:40.

there are changes which could make it longer ahead, that market. It is

:25:40.:25:45.

not a question of integrated or not but how a market works. If you are a

:25:45.:25:49.

new company having to purchase it, they have to purchase at a far

:25:49.:25:53.

higher price. They can't afford to do it. There is a wholesale market

:25:53.:25:58.

price, it is published and open. So that isn't the case. You would not

:25:58.:26:03.

say that it is unfair if a supermarket owns farms, so the meat

:26:03.:26:08.

produced in the farms are sold at the supermarket. Of course it is not

:26:08.:26:15.

unfair. What is absolutely required is strong transparency, that is

:26:15.:26:18.

fine, accounting in the separate parts of the organisation. The

:26:18.:26:23.

numbers are made public, which they are, to Ofgem. You need new entrants

:26:23.:26:29.

into the market, we have a lot of independent generators and

:26:29.:26:30.

increasingly new suppliers are coming onto the market. You don't

:26:30.:26:35.

have that if a market doesn't work. So let's make it work better, not

:26:35.:26:42.

pretend it is broken. Labour is suggesting it does not work on

:26:42.:26:45.

behalf of the consumer. On the half of the consumer, they think the

:26:45.:26:52.

market is asked. They have focus grouped these policies and it was

:26:52.:26:55.

stratospherically yacht lost the trust of the public -- you have lost

:26:55.:27:02.

the trust of the public. It was stratospherically against you. Some

:27:02.:27:06.

of it must come down to the behaviour of the big six. Why have

:27:07.:27:11.

the big six energy companies risen so much in recent years? The

:27:11.:27:16.

organisation represents many more than the big six. The big six were

:27:16.:27:22.

being talked about. We recognise the important part of trust and the fact

:27:22.:27:26.

that trust has been lost and needs to be rebuilt. The profits that have

:27:26.:27:30.

risen are not offered, it is the operating margin. It is the amount

:27:30.:27:36.

-- the profits that have risen are actually not profit. The actual

:27:36.:27:40.

profit is around the 5% mark. The return on capital employed is not

:27:41.:27:45.

high. They invested £11 billion last year. The big six invested £11

:27:45.:27:53.

billion? Last year, it has to be paid for. If you -- unless we

:27:53.:27:57.

recognise we have to make some money, you don't get the

:27:57.:28:01.

investment. Sure, companies have to make profit. But let's have a look

:28:01.:28:06.

on the British Gas has seen profits rise 3% in the first half of this

:28:07.:28:13.

year to make £356 million. Centrica saw half-year profits soar by 9% to

:28:13.:28:18.

1.58 billion pounds. These are eye watering figures for consumers who

:28:18.:28:23.

just see their bills go up and up. Can you say how much the big six

:28:23.:28:26.

company 's are going to put up their energy bills next month? They will,

:28:26.:28:33.

went there? You have to ask them for a emotional -- a commercial

:28:33.:28:43.

decision. When I have but these figures to you... Can I not answer

:28:43.:28:52.

the previous question? British Gas raised prices by 6% last November

:28:52.:28:58.

who are already seeing cost of living squeezed and the speculation

:28:58.:29:01.

is it is going to go up 8% next month. It is three times the rate of

:29:02.:29:07.

inflation. I am going to do the profit question first. On average,

:29:07.:29:12.

about 5%, about £1 per week for every household. It is less than

:29:12.:29:16.

most supermarkets. Yet the investment programme is one of the

:29:16.:29:18.

biggest investment programmes in the country. That is the first point.

:29:19.:29:23.

The second point, on your bill is a whole series of pass-through charges

:29:23.:29:26.

and they have been going up. The network renewal pro gram, the wires,

:29:26.:29:33.

the pipes, the policies of the green deals -- network renewal programme.

:29:33.:29:38.

All of it gets pass-through onto the bill. The world price of energy and

:29:38.:29:45.

gas is as it is and that is another thing that comes through on the

:29:45.:29:50.

bill. The actual proportion which the energy company has control of is

:29:50.:29:55.

probably about 19% at a whole lot sits on the bill and they get the

:29:55.:30:00.

blame. -- but a whole lots it's on the bill. Rebuilding trust is

:30:00.:30:04.

important but it is also important to talk about the issues from end to

:30:04.:30:10.

end. Where is this big investment in energy coming from? All of the

:30:10.:30:13.

energy companies are withdrawing investment. We have not built a new

:30:13.:30:17.

nuclear plant for years, Centrica has announced it is not going to go

:30:18.:30:23.

ahead with two new gas plants. The two German companies have withdrawn

:30:23.:30:26.

their investment. Where is this great investment in energy coming

:30:26.:30:33.

from? A large amount has come from building wind farms. That is your

:30:33.:30:40.

ansa? We are leading the world. Denmark and Germany have a lot

:30:40.:30:46.

more. In offshore wind farms... They are very expensive. We are not

:30:46.:30:52.

building gas stations, we are not building nuclear stations. The

:30:52.:30:56.

energy companies are making profits and not reinvesting them. They are

:30:56.:31:01.

reinvesting them. They are reinvesting them in what it is that

:31:01.:31:04.

the policy has told them to reinvest in. And I think you are absolutely

:31:04.:31:10.

right, we should be building more gas fire power stations. But you are

:31:10.:31:18.

threatening to do the opposite. Prices are artificially low and we

:31:18.:31:21.

end up with an odd and where they are too high for individuals, to

:31:21.:31:24.

local companies. Why can't we discuss it properly cushy mark are

:31:24.:31:32.

you convinced by this? Will this when anybody over? Know, and I think

:31:32.:31:37.

energy companies have a huge amount of work to do. Bringing it back to

:31:37.:31:39.

the consumer, this isn't nice to have. It is heating or eating.

:31:39.:31:45.

Struggling to get through the week or the month. These are big bills

:31:45.:31:48.

that make a big difference and the gas companies know that. It is not

:31:48.:31:52.

just politicians that do focus groups, oil companies do that as

:31:52.:31:56.

well. They know that and the fact they are not responding better

:31:56.:31:59.

suggests the market is not working as well as they think. You are

:31:59.:32:04.

right, the concern about the bills is fundamental and they have gone

:32:04.:32:07.

up, there is no getting away from it. There are real reasons for it

:32:07.:32:11.

and there is no point saying, it is you're pulled, it is you're pulled.

:32:11.:32:12.

and there is no point saying, it is Prices have gone up, you can get

:32:12.:32:18.

welfare assistance the food but not energy, that comes back through the

:32:18.:32:23.

companies. What have you done in your life that you have spent part

:32:23.:32:28.

of your life defending banks and now energy companies? I am a believer in

:32:28.:32:36.

British industry. I'm a believer in companies producing some of the

:32:36.:32:39.

great goods and services that we want and I have given you an

:32:39.:32:43.

answer. Deborah Mattinson, does it matter to Labour is big business

:32:43.:32:48.

says we are going to move away from the Labour Party? I think Ed

:32:48.:32:53.

Miliband has positioned it carefully, talking about what he's

:32:53.:32:56.

going to do for small businesses. It is good to have the debate, because

:32:56.:33:00.

that is the way he's going to get the story out and big business has a

:33:00.:33:02.

that is the way he's going to get lot to do for its own reputation at

:33:02.:33:06.

the moment, so it is a debate worth having thank you.

:33:06.:33:09.

the moment, so it is a debate worth I am sure we will come back to it.

:33:09.:33:14.

So there was plenty of policy from the Labour leader yesterday, but

:33:14.:33:18.

he'll so tackle the issues of his personal character to compare his

:33:18.:33:22.

character with that of the Prime Minister -- he also. If you want to

:33:22.:33:26.

know the difference between me and David Cameron, he is an easy way to

:33:26.:33:31.

remember it. When it was Murdoch versus the McCanns, he took the side

:33:31.:33:36.

of Murdoch. When it was a tobacco lobby against the cancer charities,

:33:36.:33:39.

he took the side of the tobacco lobby. When it was the millionaires

:33:39.:33:43.

who wanted the tax-cut versus people paying the bedroom tax, he took the

:33:44.:33:46.

who wanted the tax-cut versus people side of the millionaires. Come to

:33:46.:33:49.

think of it, he is an even easier way to remember it. David Cameron is

:33:49.:33:53.

a Prime Minister who introduced the bedroom tax. I will be the Prime

:33:53.:33:57.

Minister who repeals the bedroom tax.

:33:57.:34:01.

Here's the thing about David Cameron. He may be strong at

:34:01.:34:08.

standing up to the week, but he is always weak when it comes to

:34:08.:34:14.

standing up against the strong. That is the difference between me and

:34:14.:34:18.

David Cameron, so let's have that debate about leadership and

:34:18.:34:24.

character and I relish that debate. Joining me now from Brighton, former

:34:24.:34:28.

adviser to Tony Blair, John McTiernan. You used to be in the

:34:28.:34:32.

vanguard of new Labour, that was then and this is no, it is over,

:34:32.:34:38.

isn't it? It is a different time. New Labour was for its time and what

:34:38.:34:42.

Ed Miliband is doing is for our time. I think you know, there are a

:34:42.:34:48.

lot of angry, grumpy middle-class people out there in Britain that are

:34:48.:34:55.

being appealed to buy UKIP but are also available to Ed's populism of

:34:55.:35:03.

the left. I think what was done previously is not available and Ed

:35:03.:35:12.

Miliband has chosen to gone back and where he has and attacking energy

:35:12.:35:18.

companies, very few members of the public will be saying energy

:35:18.:35:22.

companies are great and my bills are fine and I completely understand.

:35:22.:35:25.

You think Ed Miliband is going for the centre ground? Yes. The squeezed

:35:25.:35:32.

middle, who are the centre ground of politics, they are angry and they

:35:32.:35:35.

are detached from politics and looking for somewhere to go. The

:35:35.:35:41.

propositions that Ed Miliband made yesterday that will get people back

:35:41.:35:43.

to work or building houses, houses for your kids, all of it adds up to

:35:43.:35:51.

appeal to middle England, middle-class England, saying we can

:35:51.:35:55.

be radical and we can break through this and to say what David Cameron

:35:55.:35:58.

has done, in my view incredibly stupid, is abandon optimism. He is a

:35:58.:36:03.

pessimist about Britain and Ed Miliband has said we can do better.

:36:03.:36:09.

It has allowed Ed to be the positive optimistic person in politics and

:36:09.:36:12.

yesterday was a very important speech, the battle ground for the

:36:12.:36:16.

next election. Not of us have heard Mr Cameron next week, so we don't

:36:16.:36:21.

know if that is true. Let me ask you this, do you think that Mr

:36:21.:36:25.

Miliband's speech, where he did lay out a new set of policies that were

:36:25.:36:28.

distinctive policies, they were more on the left and New Labour in a

:36:29.:36:35.

number of ways, is that the start up fight back and do you expect to see

:36:35.:36:40.

a widening once again of Labour's lead in the polls and an improvement

:36:40.:36:45.

in Mr Miliband's personal ratings? Look, I think on the polls, Labour

:36:45.:36:50.

is going to stay there or thereabouts on 38% between now and

:36:50.:36:55.

the next election. With the Tories on 34, Labour wins, particularly

:36:55.:36:59.

with UKIP in the game. Labour has got the votes it needing -- needs

:36:59.:37:08.

and I suspect we will hold them. Talking about Ed Miliband's

:37:08.:37:11.

character, this is the card but the Tories want to play, but he doesn't

:37:11.:37:16.

look like a Prime Minister. The truth is that that has resonance, it

:37:16.:37:19.

comes up in the groups. Ed knows that, that his wife he said

:37:19.:37:22.

yesterday it is not just what you look like, it is how you act -- that

:37:22.:37:28.

is why he said. So it is OK to be strong against the week but what

:37:28.:37:31.

about talking about vested interests? He made a big call on

:37:31.:37:38.

Murdoch which was right and popular. He's not just saying what you look

:37:38.:37:42.

like, conceding that he does not look like a traditional Prime

:37:42.:37:45.

Minister, it is how you act as well, it is words and values and actions.

:37:45.:37:50.

I think Ed was never going to get to the next election without addressing

:37:50.:37:54.

this issue and he has decided to do it in this way, conceding that you

:37:54.:37:58.

don't think I might be the Prime Minister at the moment, but let me

:37:58.:38:05.

show you what I will do and let me remind you of my actions and my

:38:05.:38:08.

character. It is very similar to what happened in Australia when Tony

:38:08.:38:10.

Abbott was never the preferred Prime Minister until the very end of the

:38:10.:38:14.

campaign, but his party was in the lead for a long time. It is staking

:38:14.:38:19.

out a ground to fight on. I don't think the Tories are going to ditch

:38:19.:38:24.

Mr Cameron the way that Labour in Australia ditched their leader just

:38:24.:38:27.

a few weeks before the election, so I am not sure the comparison is

:38:27.:38:32.

relevant. I have to say, I want this clarity. It seems to me, I maybe

:38:32.:38:37.

wrong, but you are saying that yesterday's speech we should regard

:38:37.:38:42.

a watershed in how we now look at Labour's fortunes going up to the

:38:42.:38:48.

election? Yesterday's speech, taken with Ed Balls's speech, what has now

:38:48.:38:53.

been set out is the Labour strategy for the time between now and the

:38:53.:38:57.

election. Labour's mission, Labour's values and the ground on

:38:57.:39:01.

which Labour are going to fight. That is absolutely clear, so it is a

:39:01.:39:07.

watershed. Ed Miliband is not Tony Blair, but he can only be the leader

:39:07.:39:13.

he needs to be to become Prime Minister by not being mesmerised by

:39:13.:39:17.

the past. That was Tony's great strength, he was never in thrall to

:39:17.:39:22.

any previous leader. We looked at Thatcher and moved beyond. Ed

:39:22.:39:25.

Miliband has looked at Tony and moved beyond. And I think it was a

:39:25.:39:31.

watershed. Let me bring in Deborah Mattinson, who has been listening

:39:31.:39:35.

here. John says that the polls may well stay quite static with Labour

:39:35.:39:39.

on about 38, the Tories on about 34. They vary a bit, but that is a rough

:39:39.:39:45.

average of where we are. At this stage in the political cycle, if you

:39:45.:39:48.

were a Labour strategist, wouldn't you want to be a bit more ahead?

:39:48.:39:53.

Wouldn't you want a comfort zone, a marginal safety? Because quite

:39:53.:39:57.

often, the polls narrow as you go into an election. Historically, you

:39:57.:40:01.

would have done, but that was then and this is now. Some of the points

:40:01.:40:05.

that John makes about the different electoral landscape now are

:40:05.:40:09.

absolutely spot on. If we look at some of the polling that has been

:40:09.:40:15.

conducted recently, for instance launch Ashcroft's massive poll, the

:40:15.:40:17.

only guy spending serious money on polling and looking at the margins,

:40:17.:40:23.

he concluded at a Labour fringe meeting saying this, saying that it

:40:23.:40:26.

Labour stayed exactly as they are, they couldn't do anything but win.

:40:27.:40:32.

That is axiomatic, because they are ahead in the polls, that is like

:40:32.:40:36.

saying night follows day. Of course if they stay where they are, they

:40:36.:40:40.

will win. But he said that looking at the electoral landscape right now

:40:40.:40:47.

is the most likely outcome, the key has -- because you have the right of

:40:47.:40:54.

centre voter divided with UKIP, so therefore if Ed's primary task is to

:40:54.:40:59.

hang on to, as it were the left of centre voters and get them to turn

:40:59.:41:00.

hang on to, as it were the left of out, that is the start point. Of

:41:00.:41:04.

course, he would hope to do better, he needs to be more ambitious. John

:41:04.:41:10.

MacKinnon, thank you be joining us. It was Labour's idea that earlier

:41:10.:41:13.

this week the shadow Chancellor Ed Balls appeared to question the

:41:13.:41:18.

party's ongoing support for HS2, the new high-speed rail line that will

:41:18.:41:22.

link north and south. He said speaking £50 billion, what it is

:41:22.:41:25.

projected to become a may not be a good idea. We sent Adam out with his

:41:25.:41:30.

balls to see whether it should be full steam ahead for the project or

:41:30.:41:34.

was it time to slam on the brakes? The message from Labour this week on

:41:34.:41:39.

HS2 has been a bit mixed, but what will delegates here think about it

:41:39.:41:42.

could will they want to construct it or cancel it?

:41:42.:41:46.

I say construct. The southern end of the West Coast mainline is full, so

:41:46.:41:50.

if you're going to build a new one, it may as well be that. I don't

:41:50.:41:54.

think it is the right one. I think we need a massive investment in

:41:54.:42:02.

railways but not this railway. Speakergreen issue can be is is it

:42:02.:42:09.

part of a wider transport strategy... -- or is it just part of

:42:09.:42:13.

a build between London and Manchester. My own personal one

:42:13.:42:20.

would be the dream. I'm going to go with HS2, because places like China

:42:20.:42:23.

and other countries, they have amazing networks and are miles ahead

:42:23.:42:27.

and we will be left behind in the race for infrastructure.

:42:27.:42:33.

I just think £50 billion could be better spent on schools and

:42:33.:42:36.

hospitals. But it is £50 billion better spent on schools and

:42:36.:42:41.

over loads and loads of years. Isn't it? 20 years? Yes, well, I was still

:42:41.:42:48.

rather spend it on that, but then I am in the south. You have plenty of

:42:48.:42:53.

railways. Any friends in Manchester? Not really, and I probably won't get

:42:53.:42:59.

any after this. It is causing widespread devastation in Camden, we

:42:59.:43:04.

are losing 480 homes, a school and open space. It will have a massive

:43:04.:43:09.

detrimental impact on Camden Town, a large destination for tourists. You

:43:09.:43:13.

think Ed Balls will cancel it? It sounds as though he once do. Will he

:43:13.:43:20.

get a slap on the wrist? He needs to be reminded that it is about

:43:20.:43:29.

capacity and the future. You are anti it? Why cancel it? It is not

:43:29.:43:33.

going to do anything in the north. They wouldn't build it in the north.

:43:34.:43:37.

They use it in the north to say you can have 20 minutes on a train to

:43:37.:43:46.

Birmingham. There will be a complication on the railways around

:43:46.:43:51.

the country. My friend lives in Manchester and says it will be

:43:51.:43:54.

handy. Some high-speed balls are escaping. This document is basically

:43:54.:44:09.

the latest polling on HS2. I know your balls are extremely scientific

:44:09.:44:11.

but I think this might be slightly more, showing that 60% of Labour

:44:12.:44:16.

voters are against HS2. So basically, we should just throw in

:44:16.:44:23.

this piece of paper and go home? Oh, dear. That is quite a shocking

:44:23.:44:30.

development. I think we will call it a day, it is impossible to work out

:44:30.:44:32.

which ball went in which box. I a day, it is impossible to work out

:44:32.:44:36.

would say it is slightly in favour of construction. The only thing that

:44:36.:44:40.

is getting cancelled here is the box.

:44:40.:44:45.

What a tragic end to the mood box. He is upset.

:44:45.:44:48.

Don't worry, we still love you, Adam. Don't you worry about that

:44:48.:44:53.

nasty little box, we will get you a new one?

:44:53.:44:55.

Giving people picked them up for him just left them? Or slipped over on

:44:55.:45:00.

them? It will survive! Deborah Mattinson, due think it is over for

:45:00.:45:07.

HS2? What surprised me in focus groups recently is when I have asked

:45:08.:45:11.

people about the economy and where savings can be made, and I haven't

:45:11.:45:16.

set out to ask them what they think about HS2, they have just told me

:45:16.:45:22.

that they question the value, but they are worried about the scale of

:45:22.:45:26.

it going up. They question the value at a time when everyone is being

:45:26.:45:30.

asked to tighten their belts. One thing that is quite interesting is

:45:30.:45:35.

people are starting to compare it with the Millennium Dome. What does

:45:35.:45:37.

this say about the Government, that they are spending this money? We

:45:37.:45:41.

think it is a waste of time, they are not listening. Does that mean

:45:41.:45:45.

that Ed Balls and Rachel Reeves's change of tone, whether they are

:45:45.:45:48.

slowly slamming on the brakes, because they are listening to the

:45:48.:45:51.

focus groups or is it just politically opportunist? They

:45:51.:46:03.

could, with Tory rebels, defeated? They are looking to see where the

:46:03.:46:07.

best value is and they are right to query it. They were so behind this

:46:07.:46:12.

scheme in the first place. Danny query it. They were so behind this

:46:12.:46:15.

Alexander has just been asked about it and he has said, in 30 years

:46:15.:46:20.

time, people will ask what the fuss was about. We need it and it must go

:46:20.:46:27.

ahead. They are not saying it now. Right now, people are looking at HS2

:46:27.:46:33.

and whilst they think it might be something that would be nice, they

:46:33.:46:38.

are wondering, can we afford it? They will have a backlash in the

:46:38.:46:42.

North, Labour councils have said they are very... The focus groups I

:46:42.:46:53.

spoke to were not just in the South. Apparently John Prescott has been

:46:53.:46:57.

against it but whether he has been so publicly explicit about it, have

:46:57.:47:05.

not heard that. And he will definitely be categorised as being

:47:05.:47:08.

from the north, I am quite sure of that. A short time ago, the Shadow

:47:08.:47:16.

Home Secretary - Yvette Cooper - was addressing Conference. Let's have a

:47:16.:47:20.

listen to what she had to say. This government is failing victims of

:47:20.:47:24.

crime, undermining the police, dividing communities, failing to

:47:24.:47:26.

deal with the challenges of the future, be it crime or immigration.

:47:26.:47:31.

Turning their backs, walking away and looking for someone else to

:47:31.:47:36.

blame. Remember their promise, that the big flagship reform of police

:47:36.:47:40.

and crime commission elections would deliver a democratic mandate? And

:47:40.:47:47.

just 15% of voters turned out. Where is Theresa May when the terror

:47:47.:47:50.

just 15% of voters turned out. Where suspect goes missing? Or the border

:47:50.:47:56.

controls collapse? Or the elections fall flat? Quick to claim credit

:47:56.:48:01.

when things go right, strangely absent when things go wrong.

:48:01.:48:06.

Decisions by Theresa May, Nick Clegg and David Cameron are undermining

:48:06.:48:12.

our police and letting victims down. And Yvette Cooper joins us now from

:48:12.:48:19.

Brighton. You mentioned that the low turnout of police commissioners, the

:48:19.:48:22.

cost of the election, so we'll Labour scrapped the police

:48:22.:48:31.

commissioners? -- will Labour scrapped. Lord Stevens is setting

:48:31.:48:38.

out a long-term vision of policing, also looking at how you raise

:48:38.:48:42.

policing standards, how you have stronger checks and balances and how

:48:42.:48:47.

you make sure police can cope with the challenges of the 21st-century.

:48:47.:48:50.

He is due to report before Christmas so we will await that and consider

:48:50.:48:57.

his conclusions. He could advise that it is possible to scrap the PCC

:48:57.:49:02.

's or keep them and you will follow that either way. We will have to

:49:02.:49:10.

have a debate about his conclusions. We opposed the principle of them to

:49:10.:49:14.

start with because we felt it was concentrating too much power in a

:49:14.:49:18.

single person's hands and that more checks and balances were needed. We

:49:18.:49:21.

single person's hands and that more are clear that reforms will be

:49:21.:49:25.

needed but we will await the advice of John Stevens and the expert

:49:25.:49:28.

commission he has gathered, which involves people from all over the

:49:28.:49:32.

globe. Because we believe in public services and think you have got to

:49:32.:49:34.

globe. Because we believe in public have a reform plan for the future,

:49:34.:49:37.

especially when there are less resources around. When the coalition

:49:37.:49:45.

started cutting the police service, you were planning to cut it as well

:49:45.:49:49.

but they have cut it by Moore, you said policing in Britain faced a

:49:49.:49:53.

perfect storm. We are halfway through the coalition government,

:49:53.:49:58.

crime is continuing to fall, at its lowest level for many years, so

:49:58.:50:03.

actually the cuts have and three had an effect, have they? That is what

:50:03.:50:10.

Vic -- the cuts have not really had an effect. That is not what victims

:50:10.:50:21.

think. The number of rape cases being referred to the prosecution

:50:21.:50:24.

have dropped by a third, even though in fact the number of rape cases

:50:24.:50:28.

reported to the police has been going up. I think you can see clear

:50:28.:50:31.

evidence of victims being let down, going up. I think you can see clear

:50:31.:50:35.

being failed. More criminals and abusers getting away with it. As a

:50:35.:50:39.

result of there being fewer police officers and police officers being

:50:39.:50:43.

stretched. The crime survey of England and Wales shows that despite

:50:43.:50:48.

the cuts, offending is at its lowest level since spending began in 1981.

:50:48.:50:59.

That includes any time during the 13 years when you were in power. There

:50:59.:51:05.

has been a 20 year drop in crime and we welcome that and wanted to go

:51:05.:51:08.

further. You see reductions in things like, side and burglary over

:51:08.:51:12.

many years that we should all welcome. -- things like homicide and

:51:12.:51:20.

burglary. The police are saying that crime is changing. What you are also

:51:20.:51:24.

seeing, alongside reductions in crime like car theft, is an increase

:51:24.:51:30.

in things like online crime on the credit card and identity fraud.

:51:30.:51:35.

Because that is where we live our lives now and organised crime knows

:51:35.:51:36.

Because that is where we live our that, too. That is where they are

:51:36.:51:41.

heading. If you have ever had your credit cards scammed or your number

:51:41.:51:45.

used by someone else, the bank sorts it out but they don't report it to

:51:46.:51:49.

the police and often the victims don't report it either. A lot of

:51:49.:51:53.

that is going unreported and the police are saying it is growing

:51:53.:51:57.

exponentially and that is why we think much stronger action is

:51:57.:52:01.

needed. Otherwise we will all pay a lot more as consumers. Do you

:52:01.:52:08.

support the Fire Brigade strike? We want negotiations to continue and we

:52:08.:52:11.

always think that is the right approach, that everybody should do

:52:11.:52:12.

everything they can. It is a very approach, that everybody should do

:52:12.:52:19.

difficult situation. Do you support them or not? We are urging all sides

:52:19.:52:24.

to continue to negotiate and do everything they can to avoid

:52:24.:52:27.

industrial action because it is always what happens when sides

:52:27.:52:33.

failed to negotiate and do the right thing. Is it unfair to ask by on to

:52:33.:52:43.

work until 60? -- to ask fireman? There are a lot of issues around

:52:43.:52:48.

pension reform. We have supported increasing the retirement age but at

:52:48.:52:51.

the same time, we also know there are some professions and occupations

:52:51.:52:57.

where it is more difficult. We said in policing, there are issues in

:52:57.:53:01.

policing that should be treated in a different way. However, there should

:53:02.:53:07.

also be support when policemen are injured in the line of duty and it

:53:07.:53:14.

has similar parallels with fire. I did not ask you about police. Is it

:53:14.:53:24.

unfair for fireman to be asked to work until 60? We think there are

:53:24.:53:31.

problems with the approach of the government and why the government

:53:31.:53:34.

and the SPU should be negotiating to find a reasonable way forward -- and

:53:34.:53:40.

the Fire Brigade union. They have had a long-standing

:53:40.:53:49.

arrangement and we are not proposing to change that. You don't think that

:53:49.:53:57.

would be right? We have had long-standing industrial relations

:53:57.:54:03.

with different kinds of professions. Police don't have the right to

:54:03.:54:06.

strike but they have arrangements where you can't make compulsory

:54:06.:54:11.

severance. Thank you, sorry to rush you, we have run out of time.

:54:11.:54:15.

No conference week would be complete without the views of sketch-writer

:54:15.:54:18.

Quentin Letts. He's been following events for us in Brighton. His

:54:18.:54:26.

verdict? Well, spine tingling! # He the monster mash.

:54:26.:54:33.

# It was a graveyard smash. # It caught on in a flash.

:54:33.:54:40.

# Heeded the monster mash. The sun may be shining in Brighton.

:54:40.:54:48.

It feels as though Halloween may have come early this year because in

:54:48.:54:52.

the fall behind me it has been echoing to the ghostly cries of

:54:52.:54:56.

spirits past. Enough to give poor old Ed Miliband the willies. The

:54:56.:55:03.

week has been dominated by the spectre of Damian McBride, even

:55:03.:55:06.

though he has been politically deceased since 2009, when he quit as

:55:06.:55:11.

Gordon Brown's spin doctor. He has returned with spine tingling, spin

:55:11.:55:16.

tingling tales of treachery in the heart of new Labour. It is something

:55:16.:55:23.

I deeply regret. Equally identical was alone in politics over the last

:55:23.:55:28.

decades in some of the ways I operated and I hope one of the

:55:28.:55:31.

effects of writing this book is that people can see the truth of some of

:55:31.:55:34.

these operations laid bare, learn from that and make it clear that

:55:34.:55:38.

those things should never happen again. Ed Miliband has been out and

:55:38.:55:43.

about but it has felt retro. Delegates have been assured that the

:55:43.:55:48.

wicked welfare reforms will be exercised. There has been a lot of

:55:48.:55:52.

bashing of Tory millionaires. Ed Miliband even breathe life into the

:55:52.:55:59.

old corpse called socialism. Why won't you bring back socialism? That

:55:59.:56:06.

is what we are doing. It says on our party card, democratic socialism.

:56:06.:56:09.

That is about a country that works fall and not just for some. The

:56:09.:56:14.

corridors are full of ancient bogey men such as Alistair Campbell and

:56:14.:56:22.

Charlie Whelan. Len McCluskey took on bridge because Ed Miliband walked

:56:22.:56:25.

out, just as he was about to start his speech. I am sorry Ed Miliband

:56:25.:56:31.

has left the platform. There are those in our party fearful of a

:56:31.:56:37.

prospect of a bad headline in the Daily Mail. I say to them, you will

:56:38.:56:44.

never, ever appease the right wing media and should try the means you

:56:44.:56:52.

and our party -- and to try to means -- Dean means you.

:56:52.:56:58.

Ed Balls made a speech that was more akin to one of those naughty seaside

:56:58.:57:05.

postcards. Involved a tale concerning the Prime Minister and

:57:05.:57:09.

his beach towel. Changing into his swimming trunks, behind that Mickey

:57:09.:57:15.

Mouse towel, captured on camera 's, unflattering pictures spread across

:57:15.:57:22.

the natural -- national press. I thought for a prime minister, it was

:57:22.:57:29.

a surprisingly small towel. Let us all agreed, after the last three

:57:30.:57:33.

years, the sooner David Cameron throws in the towel, the better.

:57:33.:57:38.

Labour's very own Kenneth Williams, having a go about David Cameron

:57:38.:57:43.

about the size of his majority for is a bit does make you wonder what

:57:43.:57:46.

will happen next week. See you in Manchester.

:57:46.:57:49.

There's just time before we go to find out the answer to our quiz.

:57:49.:57:55.

Earlier we asked you what happened next while Damian McBride was

:57:55.:57:59.

waiting to do a live TV interview yesterday morning. Deborah, I think

:57:59.:58:05.

you know. There was a bit of a scrap.

:58:05.:58:24.

the lovely dog is actually attacking his own master. Maybe he had not

:58:24.:58:44.

been fed. That's all for today. Thanks to our guests - especially

:58:44.:58:47.

our Guest of the Day, Deborah Mattinson. The One O'clock News is

:58:47.:58:51.

starting over on BBC One now. Jo will be here at noon tomorrow with

:58:51.:58:55.

all the big political stories of the day and I will be back after

:58:55.:58:59.

Question Time tomorrow night with This Week. Do join me then. Bye-bye.

:59:00.:59:02.

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