26/09/2013 Daily Politics


26/09/2013

Jo Coburn with the latest political stories including criticism of the government's programme to roll out rural broadband.


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LineFromTo

Afternoon, folks, welcome to the Daily Politics.

:00:42.:00:46.

Iran wants to be the West's best buddies - well, sort of. The

:00:46.:00:48.

country's new President, Hassan Rouhani, says he wants to reach a

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deal with world powers on his country's nuclear programme within

:00:52.:00:55.

as little as three months. In fact, the shorter the time frame the

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better. We'll be asking, can we trust him?

:00:58.:01:00.

In the middle of nowhere? Having trouble with your broadband? The

:01:00.:01:03.

Public Accounts Committee hears your pain.

:01:03.:01:09.

Just the ticket. Some local authorities are now raising more

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money through fees and charges than through the council tacks.

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And Adam goes all ideological with the mood box. Bar you are capitalist

:01:15.:01:27.

or a socialist? Socialist! And a loud one!

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All that in the next hour, and with us for the whole programme today is

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the former United Nations Deputy Secretary General - he was also a

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former Labour minister - Lord Malloch Brown. Welcome to the Daily

:01:38.:01:40.

Politics. First this morning, let's start with

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Kenya where investigators are in the Westgate shopping complex following

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the end of the siege in which 67 people are known to have died. We

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can join our correspondent, Mike Wooldridge, live in Nairobi. First

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of all, how much do we have to fear from Al-Shabab? They are actually on

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the back foot in Somalia. This is a rear action to losing a lot of

:02:08.:02:12.

ground in their main theatre of action, their home country of

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Somalia. The problem is that it doesn't take that many terrorists to

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hit a soft target like a shopping more. One of the glories of Africa

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the new Africa of urban shopping and office blocks has not had the same

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kind of security arrangements that we are used to in the UK or the US.

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There are a lot more soft targets that they probably could hit if they

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put their mind to it. Do you think it will change Kenya's strategy,

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because Al-Shabab have said they want to target the countries who

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have troops in Somalia, including Kenya and Uganda. To you think they

:02:51.:02:54.

will think about pulling out or stopping any military involvement?

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In the case of Uganda when there was something similar, the reaction of

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the Ugandans was to redouble their efforts in Somalia and I suspect

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that will be the same actions of the Kenyans. They have always worried

:03:08.:03:13.

about their border. It is a porous border, it has been a source of

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insecurity for decades, well before Al-Shabab. In that sense I think

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they will double down and try to eliminate Al-Shabab in Somalia.

:03:24.:03:28.

Initial term at least, I suspect it will intensify Kenyan efforts -- in

:03:28.:03:35.

the short term at least. The president has said that Al-Shabab is

:03:35.:03:39.

ashamed and humiliated or defeated, it sounds fairly gung ho, do you

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think it is true? No, I think they have pulled off an extraordinary

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stunt and pulled off a huge pall over Kenyan tourism, commerce and

:03:50.:03:56.

retail. This country has had gung ho growth rates of four or 5% a year

:03:56.:04:01.

but it depends very much on those sectors for it. I think this will

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cost Kenya severely. What about Kenyans themselves quicker mark I

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have heard a lot of interviews with Kenyans who are quite shocked, taken

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aback. Was there a sense that although you say these are soft

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targets, they really were not expecting this level of attack? That

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is why they are soft targets, they were not expecting this level of

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attack. There was a sense that Al-Shabab was defeated, a sense that

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this byte Kenya's own internal conflicts, which have occasionally

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flared up -- despite Kenya's own internal conflicts, this country was

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putting its past behind it and had new middle-class prosperity ahead.

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This is a real blow to Kenya's sense of where it was going. How much of a

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threat is Al-Shabab in global terms or is this berry much and these

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African problem? -- very much an East African problem? It is a

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manifestation of a much broader jihadis which is a global problem.

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We can turn to our correspondent in Nairobi. I am not sure he can hear

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me. He cannot. What about recruits to

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Al-Shabab? There was talk and there has been speculation about a Britain

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and Americans being involved. Are they incorrect -- recruiting

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actively? I think it is a kind of international dimensional of not

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just Al-Shabab at Al-Qaeda rail rated groups. You have foreign --

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but Al-Qaeda related groups. You have foreign forces. I think it is

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that. The Somali community in the UK is a long established community that

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would be the first to condemn Al-Shabab. What about the Somali

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community in Kenya and Nairobi? There has been talk that they are

:06:10.:06:13.

trying to appeal to a significant minority of Somalis in Nairobi. A

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lot of people have been pushed out of Somalia into exile in Kenya, and

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I doubt they represent quite a wide range of political viewpoints. I

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think most Somalis would think that this kind of thing endangers them,

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in that it risks raising community tensions. I would expect them to be

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very opposed to what has happened, and as angry as Kenyans about it. In

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terms of reaction from the rest of the welcome obviously it is

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condemned, what will be message be to Kenya? I think it will be to

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increase what the president is doing in Somalia in military terms. More

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importantly for him, can he use it to unify the country. He came to

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power through a divided election and he also faces from the previous

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election, charges at the International criminal Court. I

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think he will try to use this to put that behind him and relaunch himself

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as the statesman president of a united country. Can he pull it off?

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It remains to be seen. We have seen images of a lot of Kenyans giving

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blood and trying to pull together in the way that you describe. Let's try

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Michael Waldridge again, can you hear ask us to

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You can see the shopping complexes on the left. Just confirming I can

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hear you. The shopping complex is just down the road behind us there.

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Can you tell us what is happening now as investigators tried to piece

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together, now they are able to access the shopping contexts? They

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are not yet able to access all of it, even the forensic audit is

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are not yet able to access all of expected to take about a week. It is

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very challenging in itself. As we understand it, roughly a third of

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the complex of buildings was destroyed. In the course of the

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siege and the battles between the militants and the security forces.

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About a third of it has been checked and work can get underway. The

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security forces are still checking the other third, checking for booby

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traps and so on. The work that is getting underway involves sifting

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through, trying to find out where there are bodies and to retrieve

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them. Before they can do that, they also need to do DNA testing,

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fingerprints, checking and so on. One of the very delicate things they

:09:05.:09:09.

are trying to do is to distinguish between the bodies of any militants

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that are in their... The president said there worth five, there could

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be more. Distinguish between those said there worth five, there could

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and the body of civilians. One of the things where they believe they

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have a body of a militant and Interpol are doing that, is to take

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the data from those bodies and compare it with those that are on

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Interpol's Terror database, to see if they can find out more about who

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carried out this attack and there nationality. Apologies for the long

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delay. It is obviously very distressing as they try to find

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other bodies in the wreckage. The Public Accounts Committee has

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been busy again. Today it has issued a damning report on the way the

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Government awarded contracts for extending high-speed broadband to

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rural areas. The Committee accuses the Department of Culture of

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"mismanaging" the £2.5 billion project and says BT has exploited

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its near monopoly position as the main provider of the technology. The

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report also warns that consumers are getting a "raw deal" because of a

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two-year delay in completing the programme which won't now be

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finished until 2017. So how important is rural broadband? I'm

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joined now through the internet by Dave Reynoldswho's in Teignmouth in

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Devon, who runs a film company. Welcome to the programme, how

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important is raw broadband to your business? It is completely

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fundamental. -- rural broadband. We deal with enormous file sizes every

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time and with a slow internet, it pretty much comes to a standstill.

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We have fibre-optic now which is amazing, we are getting downloads of

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about 30 megabytes and it has completely changed the way we are

:11:01.:11:05.

doing a thing. We are getting a much better link here than we just had

:11:05.:11:07.

doing a thing. We are getting a much with Nairobi but maybe that is to be

:11:07.:11:10.

expected. It has transformed your business, you would not be able to

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function as a business without it? We have been functioning without it

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function as a business without it? but it means posting DVDs and

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frequently we will get DVD from clients, the footage is not there

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and it slows everything down. It is a less pleasant experience for

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everybody. We have a lot of horror stories of things we had to do in

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the meantime until getting connected. Now it has opened the

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floodgates and everything is much cleaner and more creative and

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quicker. What do you say to the argument that local authorities

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should not be subsidising broadband for oral areas? -- from rural areas.

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I think it is madness. It depends on your definition of a raw area. In

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the media industry there is argument to say we should be in London but

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creatively it is important to be outside of the city, to be around

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great locations where we can afford bigger spaces to do our thing. If we

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don't have an internet connection, it cuts us off enormously. We are in

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tamers, we are in a small seaside town, it

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is not like we are surrounded by nothing but farmland. But in this

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industry it can feel like we are cut off and if you are not in London or

:12:25.:12:29.

perhaps Bristol, you don't exist. But with faster internet, video

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conferencing is possible, we can transfer these files quickly, we can

:12:33.:12:38.

upload high-quality video to places like YouTube and we have put a lot

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of films on YouTube which would have been navigable previously. And you

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have had your debut appearance on the Daily Politics, in great

:12:48.:12:54.

quality. The magic of the internet. Enjoy the superfast broadband. And

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we're joined now by the Chair of the Public Accounts Committee, Maragaret

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Hodge, by the Culture Minister, Ed Vaizey and from the taxpayers

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alliance, Domonique Lazanski. Thank you. Margaret Hodge, how have they

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mismanaged it? In several ways. They devised the contest in such a way

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that BT inevitably one and therefore BT has become the in -- inevitably

:13:15.:13:22.

won and BT has become the monopoly provider in rolling out superfast

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for battles you look at the cost and the subsidy, the costs in England

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have gone up over 300% to what BT spent in Northern Ireland. The third

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thing is what the government says, Ed Vaizey quarrels with this... No!

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His boss said when they started this programme it would go to virtually

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all people in rural areas. That is 100%, as close as possible. The

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reality is that BT are now saying they will only cover 90%, they are

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refusing to give other providers the postcodes so they can do alternative

:14:11.:14:16.

provision. Even in the 90%, if you are more than one kilometre from

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where the boxes, you don't get access. If you are a farmer -- from

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where the box is. If you are a farmer who needs access to superfast

:14:27.:14:32.

Orban, to claim your European farming subsidies for example, you

:14:32.:14:35.

can't get it -- access to superfast broadband. Margaret Hodge has

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painted it as something of a disaster. You are not covering the

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number of people you said you would and it is very important, and it has

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cost the taxpayer a lot of money. Everything Margarets has said is

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wrong and I will explain that. We made it absolutely clear that we

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didn't just put the money out there and saying it is going to virtually

:14:59.:15:02.

everyone, we said exactly where it was going, it was going to go to

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superfast broadband for 90% of the UK, and 100% were going to get two

:15:06.:15:11.

megabits. That has aways been our programme. That is a fact. We set up

:15:11.:15:19.

a very competitive process, we have Fujitsu promising to invest £2.5

:15:20.:15:25.

billion. It competed for many contracts, local authorities chose

:15:25.:15:27.

BT because they were going to get a better deal. Why so much more

:15:27.:15:33.

expensive than Northern Ireland? It is not more expensive. It is true. .

:15:33.:15:41.

You can't both be right. 123450 it costs a different amount to put

:15:41.:15:46.

broadband in different places. Some of the allegations the costs in

:15:46.:15:49.

Northern Ireland are wildly different from England are not true.

:15:49.:15:54.

But the important point to say, first the National Audit Office said

:15:54.:15:57.

procedures are value for money, they were robust. BT only gets paid when

:15:57.:16:04.

they do the work. We don't write a cheque and say tell us how you are

:16:04.:16:09.

getting on. They take all the risk, You would expect them to? Yes, one

:16:09.:16:14.

of the last deals that the last Labour Government did had no risk on

:16:14.:16:19.

the provider and went wrong. How are you so far apart on this? You both

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can't be so right or wrong? She was determined to show BT was the

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villain and the Government wasn't. I have more Conservatives on the

:16:30.:16:32.

committee pause we reflect Parliament than we have Labour

:16:32.:16:37.

members and there was cross-party anonymity that the taxpayer, the

:16:37.:16:42.

council taxpayer is getting fleece, what has been provided is too little

:16:42.:16:45.

and it is coming too late. I don't know where to start on the tinges

:16:45.:16:50.

that go wrong. Let me take one, let me take one fact. Ed talked about

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500 million. It is 1.2 billion. That is going into the pockets of the

:16:56.:17:00.

shareholders of BT. The actual subsidy for every pound spent on

:17:00.:17:05.

rolling out soup fast prisoner of warred band, 75 pence comes from the

:17:05.:17:10.

taxpayer. You look at Sweden, you look at Northern Ireland and the

:17:10.:17:15.

percentage is very much less. They have got to that position because

:17:15.:17:20.

they are a monopoly provision. Dominique Lazanski you are noting

:17:20.:17:24.

your head. Is this not value for money? -- nodding. There are a lot

:17:24.:17:32.

of issue, it was 't -- wasn't demand led. It wasn't mobile wireless so

:17:32.:17:39.

there are a lot of constraints that caused the costs to go up. What do

:17:39.:17:43.

you say to that? If we weren't doing this programme, we would be having a

:17:43.:17:48.

discussion, saying why isn't the Government subsidising the roll out

:17:48.:17:51.

to rural areas? We are all keen. Government subsidising the roll out

:17:51.:17:59.

Demand is out there. It is, we have had numerous people on here. We have

:18:00.:18:05.

brought out 4 G ahead of schedule so mobile broadband will cover

:18:05.:18:09.

virtually all the country, by 98% of the country, by the end of 2015. If

:18:09.:18:16.

I can point to the report, there is this allegation that BT is somehow

:18:16.:18:20.

preventing councils from showing the broadband map. That is not true. All

:18:20.:18:24.

councils can publish the maps of where BT is going if they want to.

:18:24.:18:30.

Why are they saying otherwise? Chris Heaton Harris said Northamptonshire

:18:30.:18:35.

Cowen sishls his council has done it. Are you comfortable, you may say

:18:35.:18:39.

you have rolled out the programme, well you have, there is no doubt

:18:39.:18:42.

about it, it has been rolled out. If it is not value for money and if you

:18:42.:18:46.

are going to be criticised for not doing due diligence in terms of who

:18:46.:18:51.

is in charge, if there are some people without broadband, it is not

:18:51.:18:55.

going to be the successful programme you set out to be. You have put the

:18:55.:19:00.

finger on it A the end of the day marring and I can have arguments but

:19:00.:19:03.

the people watching this programme are saying where is my broadband?

:19:03.:19:08.

Where is it? For those lucky enough to survive, in two years time we

:19:08.:19:12.

will sit on the sofa and I hope to tell you millions have broadband and

:19:12.:19:17.

I hope to show you we have been robust in holding BT to account.

:19:17.:19:23.

Clearly Margaret says you haven't been. Ed, millions of people, let

:19:23.:19:29.

me, millions of people will get broadband, we welcome that, there

:19:29.:19:31.

me, millions of people will get will be many, many, probably

:19:31.:19:34.

millions of people who won't get access to broadband. Let me say

:19:34.:19:37.

don't quote the National Audit Office at us, because the National

:19:37.:19:40.

Audit Office is in agreement with us, what you are doing is checking

:19:40.:19:46.

invoice, and I just, I mean I do the analogy of a building contract. When

:19:46.:19:49.

you get a contract if your home. You get an estimate. You check the

:19:49.:19:53.

invoices the other side, but we want to know thes dos up front, you can't

:19:53.:19:57.

tell us the money that has been spent on labour, on project

:19:57.:20:01.

management, rather than capital investment, and if you go back to

:20:01.:20:06.

the report, the NAO report says the checks are better, they are not good

:20:06.:20:10.

enough. BT, I mean it doesn't operation as a monopoly, it is open

:20:11.:20:16.

to other rivals this contract. BT is essential for delivering broadband

:20:16.:20:22.

in this country, however, how BT wholesale provides access for other

:20:22.:20:26.

companies like Virgin, people like that, it is constrained and that is

:20:26.:20:30.

part of the problem with delivering broadband in the UK. If it is that

:20:30.:20:35.

convained it is not open in the way you have described We have one of

:20:35.:20:39.

the most competitive broadband markets in the world. You can't do

:20:39.:20:44.

that without broadband, we have 60 or 707 retailers providing

:20:44.:20:48.

broadband, on BT network, we have some of the lowest prices for

:20:48.:20:51.

broadband anywhere in the ed who. Access to BT's infrastructure is

:20:51.:20:57.

regulated by Ofcom. We saw a lot of the providers on the wholesale side

:20:57.:21:01.

who said the way the contract had been devised by Ed's department kept

:21:01.:21:05.

them out of the business ch the contracts were too small. They

:21:05.:21:07.

depended on one technology, they had those sort of features and on the

:21:08.:21:14.

retail side we had Talk Talk giving evidence, they said BT was knocking

:21:14.:21:19.

up the wholesale price, making the mark up they couldn't compete in the

:21:19.:21:26.

mark. Do you think it sound like a cosy deal? They are the utility we

:21:26.:21:31.

love to hate and they are not a universal utility any more. They

:21:31.:21:34.

have a quasi monopolistic position which they use to take advantage of

:21:34.:21:38.

this, ball these infrastructure rows in the UK leave one the taxpayer

:21:38.:21:42.

with the worrying thought by the time it is done, do we still need

:21:42.:21:50.

it? I mean Zimbabwe has just rolled out 4G to rural users, so there is

:21:50.:21:56.

this sense, you know, Governments and investments of this kind have

:21:56.:21:59.

a-ha bit of being yesterday's technology and the day before that's

:21:59.:22:07.

by the time they are completed. You simply can't win. Margaret was

:22:07.:22:11.

saying BT is pleasing the taxpayer and will make a huge profit and Mark

:22:11.:22:17.

is saying BT is going to be out-of-date in five years' time.

:22:17.:22:19.

Think we are doing the right thing. We are delivering, we are about to

:22:19.:22:22.

Think we are doing the right thing. deliver to 10,000 homes a week. You

:22:22.:22:29.

can agree to disagree you two. We agree the technology is important.

:22:29.:22:33.

Iran wants to reach a deal with the west on its nuclear programme within

:22:33.:22:38.

the next six month, that was the fairly surprising declaration from

:22:38.:22:41.

the country's new President Hassan Rouhani at the United Nations

:22:41.:22:43.

the country's new President Hassan meeting in New York this week. It

:22:43.:22:46.

comes after a seeming shift in position from the new leadership in

:22:46.:22:50.

Iran, which has been under some form of sanctions for a number of years.

:22:50.:22:55.

They have driven up the cost of living since 2007, and now, appears

:22:55.:23:00.

Iran is ready to come back to the negotiating table.

:23:00.:23:10.

Hassan Rouhani gave an interview in the States yesterday and he was

:23:10.:23:14.

asked why, despite all the positive rhetoric a handshake where the US

:23:15.:23:20.

President never materialised. You have made a speech, the President

:23:20.:23:24.

has made a speech. There was no handshake. No meeting between you

:23:24.:23:28.

and the President, you suggested you didn't have enough time to plan for

:23:28.:23:33.

it. What is necessary for you to have a bilateral meeting with the

:23:33.:23:39.

President? TRANSLATION: Well, after all, we are

:23:39.:23:44.

speaking of two countries, who have had no relations for 35 years, so it

:23:44.:23:52.

is clear that to begin talks, requires some preparation work. And

:23:52.:24:00.

when tefr prep work is completed, believe it is possible to be have a

:24:00.:24:02.

when tefr prep work is completed, meeting, perhaps if we had more time

:24:02.:24:06.

here in New York we may have been able to co-ordinate what was

:24:06.:24:11.

necessary for many meeting to take place.

:24:11.:24:14.

With us now Villa the wonders of broadband which we have been talking

:24:14.:24:19.

about is former ambassador to Iran Richard Dalton, welcome to the

:24:19.:24:22.

programme. Here from the Henry Jackson Society is Douglas Murray.

:24:22.:24:31.

Douglas Murray do you trust President Rouhani. No it is

:24:31.:24:35.

important to leave any door very slightly open, in case this, against

:24:35.:24:41.

all odds is a sincere approach. Do you not think they are making, in

:24:42.:24:47.

their terms, quite a bit of the running and there has to be more,

:24:48.:24:52.

there has to be more trust in what they have to offer. They want to do

:24:52.:24:59.

something about sanctions The sanctions are biting in Iran. The

:24:59.:25:03.

regime feels they are getting blamed for that by the people, quite

:25:03.:25:06.

rightly. Think it's a great mistake to think that an alleged tweet here,

:25:07.:25:12.

and the odd statement here constitutes a change in policy. This

:25:12.:25:18.

is still a country run by addict forrial governance of Ayatollahs. Do

:25:18.:25:21.

is still a country run by addict you agree with that Richard Dalton?

:25:21.:25:27.

It is not a perfect democracy but President Rouhani was elected. The

:25:27.:25:30.

reason he is there rather than one of the hard liners is because that

:25:30.:25:34.

is what the people wanted, and the Supreme Leader of Iran did not seek

:25:34.:25:39.

to influence that election at all. I think the important thing is that

:25:39.:25:43.

this is a genuine new opening, and to suggest that you should merely

:25:43.:25:49.

leave the door slightly open is just too grudging, the fact is that the

:25:49.:25:55.

policies adopted by the US and its partners have failed to realise

:25:55.:25:56.

their objective of providing cast partners have failed to realise

:25:56.:26:02.

iron assurances that Iran will not ever build a nuclear weapon, and in

:26:02.:26:06.

the case of Iran, their defiance and their, the difficulties face, have

:26:06.:26:13.

not secured their objective of security, respect and prosperity, so

:26:13.:26:17.

I believe there is a dawning awareness in Washington and Tehran

:26:17.:26:22.

they need to try something new, that should be welcomed. What we have

:26:22.:26:28.

heard from the Iranian, reenforce -- reinforces that sense of an opening,

:26:28.:26:32.

they are talking in terms of a framework for managing their o

:26:33.:26:36.

managing their difference with the US, they are talking about removing

:26:36.:26:39.

concerns is about their nuclear programme on the basis of

:26:39.:26:44.

transparency, and this is now right for exploitation with a more

:26:44.:26:48.

flexible and creative diplomatic position, by the six countries that

:26:48.:26:52.

Iran is negotiating with. OK. What do you think in terms of being

:26:52.:26:57.

creative and imaginative from the Americans and the western response

:26:57.:27:00.

in terms of getting what they want, in the way Richard Dalton says the

:27:00.:27:07.

west hasn't been able to through sanctions. Disagree, sanctions have

:27:07.:27:12.

worked to some extent. I would argue the fact sanctions have been going

:27:12.:27:18.

on is why the Iranians are coming to the table like this. If sanctions

:27:18.:27:21.

were to keep going on, the Iranian regime could well see itself under

:27:21.:27:27.

the kind of pressure with the popular protests we saw in 2009

:27:27.:27:31.

which were brutally crushed in 2009. Think it's a mistake to give, to

:27:31.:27:35.

allow them this moment to escape from that moment, that said, of

:27:35.:27:40.

course, if there is some, if there is some way of exploring a way round

:27:40.:27:45.

this, then, of course it should, it should be looked for. How much do

:27:45.:27:49.

you believe in this new opening, if you like, in dialogue? Well, it is a

:27:49.:27:55.

new team and there is no doubt they got elected with a mandate to try

:27:55.:27:59.

and get back into the community of nations. But, think it is the case

:27:59.:28:05.

that said, the fundamentals remain the same, which is that the

:28:05.:28:08.

Government will want to retain, the Iranian Government will want to

:28:08.:28:12.

retain a Ana Ivanovic programme reportedly for peaceful purposes,

:28:12.:28:21.

and -- uranium enrichment programme. That is a big ask. But, you know,

:28:21.:28:27.

but the way to get there, as Richard said, is to put this in a broader

:28:27.:28:32.

framework of normalising relation, because for Iran, it has always been

:28:32.:28:36.

this vulnerabilitiable in the region itself, to Israel, a nuclear power

:28:36.:28:43.

already, and to the US, which has motivated this behaviour. So if

:28:43.:28:47.

there is some kind of security guarantee as part of a broad era

:28:47.:28:54.

rapprochement this can move forward, for the US to the do a deal with the

:28:54.:29:00.

devil it is going to need to be conadviced an Israel is I heard Mark

:29:00.:29:06.

regular geld, he said don't be fooled by the smiling Rouhani in

:29:06.:29:12.

that sense, he feels the policy hasn't changed at all. What do you

:29:12.:29:16.

feel would have to be done by the Iranians to convince them more? By

:29:16.:29:20.

rubbishing everything in advance and not staying in the General Assembly

:29:20.:29:24.

to listen to President Rouhani, the Israelis are talking themselves out

:29:24.:29:29.

of the game. The fact is they already have a firm ally in the US

:29:29.:29:34.

and they should be discussing these matters with the US UK, and the US

:29:34.:29:39.

is negotiating partner, and they should be preparing themselves to

:29:39.:29:45.

face the fact that is their objective-hit erto of stopping all

:29:45.:29:51.

enrich. In Iran is not negotiable and it is not the policy of the US

:29:51.:29:56.

or of the European countries. But, the point about the next round of

:29:56.:30:00.

negotiations is we don't know what is in the hand of either side. We

:30:00.:30:05.

may know a bit more after today's New York meeting. It could on the

:30:05.:30:10.

other hand be about agreeing processes is and about platitudes,

:30:10.:30:16.

or it could be a substantive negotiating session. Iran has never

:30:16.:30:21.

left the negotiating table, it has been there is a vicious

:30:22.:30:27.

disagreement, because each side has made tiny offers. I am going to stop

:30:27.:30:44.

you there. It is a jolly good thing that people are talking about doing

:30:44.:30:48.

it quickly because after all, Iran has been blamed hitherto for

:30:48.:30:53.

stringing things out. We shouldn't be looking big if tours in the mouth

:30:53.:30:58.

when Iran says, let's try to get at least April and re-agreement,

:30:58.:31:04.

something that defuses the tension -- preliminary agreement. I am going

:31:04.:31:08.

something that defuses the tension to stop you. I don't you could hear

:31:08.:31:13.

me. Respond to the Israelis, walking out, it is not going to produce

:31:13.:31:18.

anything in terms of negotiation or conciliation in the way that Richard

:31:18.:31:23.

Dalton has expressed? Come on, the idea that Israel walking out is some

:31:23.:31:30.

kind of diplomatic snub... This is walking out of a speech of somebody

:31:30.:31:34.

who is president of a country which continues to sponsor terrorist

:31:34.:31:38.

groups, who have as their stated aim the annihilation of the state of

:31:38.:31:44.

Israel. If the Iranian enrichment programme is part of the deal...

:31:44.:31:51.

Iran is in contravention of six resolutions, five of them unanimous.

:31:51.:31:54.

It is against the international community on this. Israel, it is not

:31:54.:31:58.

too surprising that a country which community on this. Israel, it is not

:31:58.:32:03.

is still suffering terrorism, sponsored by Iraq, in particular its

:32:03.:32:08.

proxy group of Hezbollah, which has just seen in the last 24 hours the

:32:09.:32:12.

international press and everyone else give a standing ovation to

:32:13.:32:18.

Hassan Rouhani for saying it is possible the Holocaust existed... It

:32:18.:32:26.

is a step. It is debatable if he acknowledge the Holocaust did occur.

:32:26.:32:27.

The you can understand why the Israelis

:32:27.:32:36.

would be suspicious, at least. People are always walking out of the

:32:36.:32:39.

General Assembly so not to make a big deal about that, but the broader

:32:39.:32:44.

point is that the US must make sure its policy is driven by broader

:32:44.:32:49.

interests than just Israel. It has to remember that for Israel, a

:32:49.:32:53.

stable region of peace with itself has got to be the ultimate goal. It

:32:53.:32:58.

should welcome this modest steps forward and try to accelerate them.

:32:58.:33:04.

We all agree that you want to keep the door open a little bit, I would

:33:04.:33:08.

say a bit wider. But whichever way it happens we have got to seize this

:33:08.:33:14.

opportunity. This crisis with Iran was one day always going to have a

:33:14.:33:18.

diplomatic, not a security solution. It is not feasible to take

:33:18.:33:22.

out this nuclear programme by strikes. Getting down to the table

:33:22.:33:27.

and negotiating a solution was one they going to happen, it is as good

:33:27.:33:33.

a moment as any. Thank you for joining us, Richard Dalton. You're

:33:33.:33:35.

watching the Daily Politics - and we've been joined by viewers in

:33:35.:33:38.

Scotland who have been watching First Minister's Questions from

:33:38.:33:40.

Holyrood. The United Nations was meant to help

:33:40.:33:43.

bring peace and harmony to the world; more often than not though,

:33:43.:33:47.

it finds itself in the firing line, both literally and politically. But

:33:47.:33:50.

is that an occupational hazard for a body which tries to mediate in

:33:50.:33:54.

disputes, or is the UN in dire need of reform? Here's David.

:33:54.:34:00.

Think United Nations, think New York. Actually, it first met much

:34:00.:34:07.

closer to home. This is where it all began for the United Nations. Its

:34:07.:34:11.

inaugural meeting was held in London's Methodist Central Hall in

:34:12.:34:16.

1946. It has been going for 67 years, it has a members and has been

:34:16.:34:23.

at the centre of world events for eight decades -- 193 members.

:34:23.:34:28.

Critics say the UN has not covered itself in glory in recent years,

:34:28.:34:33.

frequently ignored by the powerful, important to stop genocide in the

:34:33.:34:37.

Balkans and hamstrung by a Security Council whose five permanent members

:34:37.:34:41.

routinely fail to achieve a collective view. In short, not fit

:34:41.:34:47.

for purpose. Any organisation that doesn't have critical scrutiny,

:34:47.:34:52.

doesn't have an opposition, tends overtime to become flabby,

:34:52.:34:56.

self-serving and corrupt. Even with the best will in the world, and

:34:56.:35:01.

because people tend to treat the UN as being an embodiment of high

:35:01.:35:03.

principle that we don't like to criticise it, we have had the

:35:04.:35:07.

perverse effect of making it less good at what it is supposed to do.

:35:07.:35:12.

But then, the United Nations can only ever be the sum of its parts.

:35:12.:35:17.

It is easy to take potshots at the UN because its failures are there

:35:17.:35:21.

for everyone to see. But we have to ask, is that really the fall of the

:35:21.:35:26.

UN as a body or is it the fault of the governments that make it up, the

:35:26.:35:31.

member states of the UN? Although the focus is on the rows and the

:35:31.:35:34.

global power plays, there is more to the UN than vetoes. The UN has many

:35:34.:35:40.

branches and a lot of them do valuable work around the world which

:35:40.:35:44.

is less high profile than high politics stuff. In the areas of

:35:44.:35:48.

refugees, the UN carries out a lot of voluble work looking after

:35:48.:35:53.

refugees around the world. -- valuable work. The human rights

:35:53.:35:56.

Council has sponsored important investigations into atrocities. As a

:35:56.:36:01.

-- others think some of those many branches should be ruined. I would

:36:01.:36:05.

like to see a number of its agencies wound up and its powers returned to

:36:05.:36:10.

the member states. I would like to see the bureaucracy growing out of

:36:10.:36:13.

sight reduced in scope and power. I would like to see the UN returned to

:36:13.:36:17.

the basic role of being an international forum for the

:36:17.:36:24.

arbitration of disputes. I am confident that the authority of the

:36:24.:36:28.

United Nations will prevail. The night it nations was meant to stop

:36:28.:36:31.

wars and promote dialogue between countries. Almost from its earliest

:36:31.:36:35.

days, the battle ground has often been the organisation itself.

:36:35.:36:41.

Do you think it has been a complete failure? I don't think it has been a

:36:41.:36:51.

complete failure but to misapply the Churchill picked on, it is the worst

:36:51.:36:54.

possible international forum apart from all of the others one might

:36:54.:36:58.

think of. If one considers the problem the UN faces, you can see

:36:58.:37:02.

what a difference a letter makes. The UNHCR, the high commission for

:37:02.:37:07.

the refugees and the human rights Council. The high commission for

:37:08.:37:11.

refugees does extraordinary work, it is hard to think of another body

:37:11.:37:15.

that could do that much good. Then you take the human rights Council

:37:15.:37:20.

and it is a farce of a body. Where North Korea and Sudan and human

:37:20.:37:25.

rights abusers attacked Iran and the Western democracy. There you see the

:37:25.:37:29.

problem. It could do with quite a lot of pruning. Do you agree it

:37:29.:37:35.

should be pruned in a dramatic way? When I was the deputy secretary

:37:35.:37:39.

general, we were hell bent on trying to reform everything from membership

:37:39.:37:42.

of the Security Council to the performance of the agencies, change

:37:42.:37:46.

the condition under which staff work. Under Kofi Anand we will

:37:47.:37:52.

taking it all in. Our big resistors were member states. That is not a

:37:52.:37:58.

surprise, turkeys are not going to vote for Christmas over this. That's

:37:58.:38:01.

surprise, turkeys are not going to right, although a reinvigorated UN

:38:01.:38:06.

would help most member states. Because it does have a lot of common

:38:06.:38:12.

good. Frankly, for all its flaws, I love the reversal of the Churchill

:38:12.:38:18.

dictum. If we didn't have it, we would probably have to invent it and

:38:18.:38:22.

we would have a lot of difficulty in venting it even up to this standard

:38:22.:38:29.

in today's world. 1945 was a rare moment of unanimity in world affairs

:38:29.:38:33.

after a terrible walk it reflects that aspiration. It is some kind of

:38:33.:38:35.

on which we can build. -- after a that aspiration. It is some kind of

:38:35.:38:45.

terrible war. Is the problem that it doesn't work as a structure, that it

:38:45.:38:48.

is wasteful and compass and needs pruning? Or is it that it -- and

:38:48.:38:56.

cumbersome and needs pruning. Or is it that it doesn't work because you

:38:56.:39:00.

have very divided camps which will never meet. The Security Council is

:39:00.:39:07.

the obvious example, it is unworkable, it cannot agree on a

:39:07.:39:10.

situation like Syria. It cannot agree for meaningful action. When

:39:11.:39:15.

you look at the occasions the United Nations has managed to intervene

:39:15.:39:18.

Button I think of the Korean War of which could only -- managed to

:39:18.:39:27.

intervene... China and Russia were not engage with the Security

:39:27.:39:33.

Council. There are 20 peacekeeping missions, all with Security Council

:39:33.:39:39.

mandates. Hezbollah's clash with Israel in southern Lebanon,

:39:39.:39:41.

mandates. Hezbollah's clash with something which was going to go very

:39:41.:39:48.

nasty for Israel as well as Lebanon, the UN. Austrian troops recently

:39:48.:39:57.

fled. There are all sorts of problems with countries that have no

:39:57.:40:01.

vested interest, not wanting to put the lives of troops on the line. It

:40:01.:40:07.

is legitimate, you might say, but no good for the peacekeeping role. I

:40:07.:40:11.

think you are right that on the big ones, it tends to divide, like Syria

:40:11.:40:16.

or the Palestinian issue. But, and it is a huge but, our unit camera

:40:16.:40:22.

British political system couldn't agree what to do about Syria so no

:40:22.:40:31.

surprise the world cannot either. There are occasions when peace does

:40:31.:40:35.

not need to be kept, war needs to be waged against a country, against a

:40:35.:40:39.

dictator. On that sort of question, the failings of the Security Council

:40:39.:40:43.

are not just for the time being but will be perpetual. Thank you.

:40:43.:40:47.

People have always suspected councils of getting that little bit

:40:47.:40:50.

extra from service charges and there seems to be growing evidence.

:40:50.:40:54.

Figures published today show one in three councils raises more money

:40:54.:40:56.

from domestic charges than council tacks. According to Audit Commission

:40:56.:41:02.

figures, councils raised a colossal £10.2 billion in 2011-12 by charging

:41:02.:41:05.

for rubbish collection, funerals and parking. The money is supposed to be

:41:05.:41:10.

ploughed back into the service it has been raised from, but further

:41:10.:41:13.

analysis shows that councils have raised 150% more from parking than

:41:13.:41:18.

they've spent on it. Communities Secretary Eric Pickles is said to be

:41:18.:41:22.

on the war path over charges supplementing other services. But

:41:22.:41:26.

with council tax freezes and budget cuts in local councils of up to 30%,

:41:26.:41:29.

balancing the books is arguably much harder. Jeremy Newham, the Audit

:41:29.:41:38.

Commission chairman, has said, "There is no one-size-fits-all

:41:38.:41:41.

formula of how councils set their local charging policies.

:41:41.:41:51.

Joining me to discuss this is the chair of the Local Government

:41:51.:41:57.

Association, Sir Merrick Cockell. Our councils being greedy? No, there

:41:57.:42:03.

is less of a story than you might think. The figure hasn't changed and

:42:03.:42:10.

is about 2004. We are seeing slight changes in the sentences of councils

:42:10.:42:16.

that you say are gaining -- percentages of councils that are

:42:16.:42:20.

gaining more in fees than Council tax but it tells you that many of

:42:20.:42:23.

those councils are the lowest charges of council tax. Parking is

:42:23.:42:30.

the one that most people are upset about. How about adult social care,

:42:30.:42:34.

school meals, burials and cremations. These are services that

:42:34.:42:40.

we charge for and we have to pay, they do not come without a cost. It

:42:40.:42:46.

is the whole range, about 10% of what we spend overall in local

:42:46.:42:50.

government that comes from fees and charges. It is parking, residence

:42:50.:42:55.

permits, fines, the things that get people by rate. If people think

:42:55.:43:02.

councils are just making it more expensive, particularly in parts of

:43:02.:43:05.

councils are just making it more London, what are they doing? There

:43:05.:43:12.

are two parts to parking, one is charging you for a car park and the

:43:12.:43:16.

other one is finds, you can't predict the level of fines. We get

:43:16.:43:24.

about 60% more overall than we spend on parking controls. That 60%

:43:24.:43:29.

doesn't just go into some imaginary bank account. That is good to know.

:43:29.:43:39.

It has to go into other parking, other road things. Sorting out the

:43:39.:43:45.

potholes... Does it go into those other things? Taxpayers don't

:43:45.:43:49.

believe that is where it goes, they will say they don't see those

:43:50.:43:53.

improvements. They make all this money, some people believe they

:43:53.:43:56.

employ more people to put the tickets on your car, which is why

:43:56.:43:59.

they get even more cash and they don't put it back into the service?

:43:59.:44:05.

Those are the government rules so we have to spend it within

:44:05.:44:10.

transportation. It could be subsidising the reduced, or free

:44:11.:44:15.

passes for the elderly. It could be going directly into road

:44:15.:44:18.

improvements and new schemes. Generally within the transportation

:44:19.:44:21.

description, that is where it is being used. London... It is very few

:44:21.:44:29.

councils. Most councils don't make a profit on their parking. I spent a

:44:29.:44:34.

lot of time when I was leading my local council. The idea that you

:44:34.:44:38.

just put up parking charges, the consumer does what it does in every

:44:38.:44:42.

thing, it decides it is not going to spend that money. You think you are

:44:42.:44:45.

putting up the charges but your income goes down. It is a carefully

:44:45.:44:51.

calibrated as to what the market can afford.

:44:51.:45:05.

. Areas, where there is a surplus thaw put it into things that are

:45:05.:45:09.

needed. You might look... Why can't you transfer money across the

:45:09.:45:14.

sectors? It frees up the pressure in other parts if you can use some of

:45:14.:45:17.

that. If you make a parking surplus and you can use it on potholes you

:45:17.:45:25.

don't have to use taxpayer money to do the pot hells -- potholes. The

:45:25.:45:31.

vast majority of councils are not making a surplus and as we know the

:45:31.:45:35.

overall position is we are losing about close to 40% now, and we kept

:45:35.:45:40.

council tax down and kept fees down, they are the same as nine years ago.

:45:40.:45:46.

Do you feel sympathy for councils? I do rather. I think Eric Pickles is

:45:46.:45:51.

so anxious to preserve his status as the tribune of the people he

:45:51.:45:55.

sometimes gets his facts wrong. I was hope he was watching, because

:45:55.:45:59.

his whole complaint today goes against the grain of this. He

:45:59.:46:02.

doesn't seem aware that money raised for parking has to be spent on

:46:02.:46:07.

parking related service, and so in a sense, he is the opposition

:46:07.:46:12.

politician still who seems to have forgotten he is Secretary of State

:46:12.:46:19.

responsible for this. Do you agree with that, yes or no? Well, the

:46:19.:46:24.

Secretary of State is intitled to give his view but he doesn't control

:46:24.:46:30.

things at a local level. They are taken according to local services.

:46:30.:46:36.

Our reporter has been out and about at conference with his mood box but

:46:36.:46:40.

on the last day of the Labour Conference he decided to tackle the

:46:40.:46:44.

big ideas. Believe it or not some people think

:46:44.:46:49.

our mood box trivialises thing, today we are going to prove it can

:46:49.:46:53.

handle some of the biggest political issue, we will ask Labour delegates

:46:53.:46:59.

to choose between socialism and capitalism.

:46:59.:47:04.

Are you a socialist or capitalist? That is a no brainer, isn't it, when

:47:04.:47:13.

you come here. I don't expect that to fill up at all. You expect there

:47:13.:47:18.

will be no balls in the capitalist box. I think I am going to put it

:47:18.:47:25.

there. In the middle. You have gone for the third way, that is very

:47:25.:47:29.

1988ish of you. I think you can learn a lot from Blair's legacy. Are

:47:29.:47:36.

you a sober list or capitalist? I am not getting involved in your ball

:47:37.:47:41.

games today. -- socialist. It should be obvious

:47:41.:47:47.

to all sections of society. I don't think anybody benefit froms from

:47:47.:47:52.

capitalist. The more we can move to our socialist roots, the better we

:47:52.:47:55.

will be. Do you feel there is enough

:47:55.:47:59.

socialism being displayed here? Definitely, in his speech yesterday

:47:59.:48:04.

our leader brought socialism back and showed that Labour is going to

:48:04.:48:08.

be left-wing and be progressive and we are doing what is best for the

:48:08.:48:11.

people. What are you prepared to give up, so that the world becomes

:48:11.:48:18.

more socialist? Give up? I guess I would give up my neckache trainers

:48:18.:48:23.

6789 How can peep people say capitalism? Do you think they have

:48:23.:48:30.

come to the wrong conference. The Americans are getting confused

:48:30.:48:36.

between either Nazi socialism or Communist socialism. Are you are a

:48:36.:48:40.

capitalist or socialist? What was that? Sober list And a very loud

:48:40.:48:45.

one. Is the energy policy a socialist policy or capitalist

:48:45.:48:50.

policy. Pro-competition policy, that what we need. We can't stick with

:48:50.:48:56.

six companies running everything. That sounds sober list. It is about

:48:56.:49:00.

making sure we have proper government regulation. Why

:49:00.:49:06.

socialism, why will no-one say the word? We are being filmed by rivals.

:49:06.:49:14.

So you have coined a new one? I am a responsible capitalist. We don't

:49:14.:49:19.

have a box for that You should have replaced it. Is Labour a responsible

:49:19.:49:25.

capitalist kind of party? I think it is. I think that was Ed was talking

:49:25.:49:27.

capitalist kind of party? I think it about. That is what he talked about

:49:27.:49:31.

last yore and the year before, it is where the public is. Because we are

:49:31.:49:37.

not going to go back to the 0s. Can you explain what socialism is and

:49:37.:49:40.

capitalism and I will put a ball in the box on where I think we should

:49:40.:49:47.

be. You have hid the nail on the head, a postism world? You are

:49:47.:49:55.

asking questions about socialism and capitalism and you say we are in a

:49:55.:50:00.

postism word No I said are we? Your point is those labels are inadequate

:50:00.:50:04.

You are asking questions and I would point is those labels are inadequate

:50:04.:50:10.

like toe know what you mean by those phrases. We are doing a survey. I

:50:10.:50:15.

know these surveys, You know what the question is, we have come es

:50:15.:50:20.

pressed 200 years history into two minutes and we are asking people to

:50:20.:50:25.

choose socialism or capitalism. Socialism. Don't tell people you are

:50:26.:50:31.

voting for me because people might say the BBC is compromised!

:50:31.:50:42.

What did you say about the people who put it in the capitalist box We

:50:42.:50:48.

think they might be Blairites. There isn't many left. How does it feel

:50:48.:50:53.

being one of six capitalist in the whole conference I am into

:50:53.:50:58.

responsible capitalism, and if you want a dynamic market economy, I am

:50:58.:51:03.

into that as well. Things can only get better as far as I'm concerned

:51:03.:51:07.

is. Where have I heard that phrase before? The Shadow Chancellor is

:51:07.:51:11.

tired because he has done a rowing challenge. And came top of the whole

:51:11.:51:17.

conference. You look like you need to sit down.

:51:17.:51:23.

Here it goes. A historic moment where a member of the current

:51:23.:51:32.

cabinet says they are a socialist The NHS, Labour social values in

:51:32.:51:36.

accuse, proud to say. What history could not settle in a hundred year,

:51:36.:51:42.

we have settled in three minute, socialism has triumphed over

:51:42.:51:46.

capitalism at the Labour Party Conference.ment surprise, surprise.

:51:46.:51:50.

Joining us to discuss this, frankly shocking finding, and also, I

:51:50.:51:54.

thought Ed Balls was having far too much fun with the mod box: Dan Jones

:51:54.:52:06.

claims to have put all them in the capitalist box. I presume you would

:52:06.:52:10.

have put it in the capitalism one? I think, you know, having a debate

:52:10.:52:14.

about socialism or cappism in Britain is like having a debate

:52:14.:52:17.

about whether you want to breathe air or water. Whoever wins the next

:52:17.:52:21.

election this will be a capitalist economy, that is whether Ed Miliband

:52:21.:52:27.

or David Cameron win, the debate is do they pursue a left-wing political

:52:27.:52:33.

strategy or a centrist political strategy in the run-up to the

:52:33.:52:38.

election, now if you think about it, New Labour introduced what most

:52:38.:52:42.

people would be classical left-wing policy, the windfall tax, the

:52:43.:52:46.

minimum wage, signing the Social Chapter but because of what Blair

:52:46.:52:50.

was saying, the sort of conhave Assembly governments he was having

:52:50.:52:52.

with the British people and where he was positioning himself on the

:52:52.:52:55.

political spectrum, they weren't seen ass been left-wing, they were

:52:55.:53:01.

seen as centrist. Socialism for you? Of course, I find it amusing the

:53:01.:53:07.

reds under the beds rhetoric, along the lines of comparing Ed

:53:07.:53:14.

Miliband... Most people out there, outside of politicos like us sitting

:53:14.:53:18.

here, they don't think in terms of left and right, let alone capitalism

:53:18.:53:25.

or socialism. They think in terms of issues that have to be addressed you

:53:25.:53:30.

might find in amusing but the first time Labour called it a democratic

:53:30.:53:35.

Socialist Party wasn't when it was founded, it was 1995, under Tony

:53:35.:53:39.

Blair, it was a revision of clause four, now I think for Blair it meant

:53:39.:53:43.

motherhood and apple pie and people being nice to each other, for me it

:53:43.:53:48.

is shifting wealth and power favour of working people, that is those who

:53:48.:53:51.

keep society ticking, the wealth creators of society, it is about

:53:51.:53:55.

extending democracy to every sphere of life, but it is about challenging

:53:55.:53:59.

the form of socialism we have which is socialism for the rich. Banks

:53:59.:54:05.

bailed out by the taxpayer. Housing benefit, subsidising private

:54:05.:54:08.

landlords in having democratic socialism. Whose side you on? You

:54:08.:54:12.

will be on the side of the Conservatives and the wealth quay

:54:12.:54:17.

fors. He is Cameron's favourite columnist. Our Prime Minister is

:54:17.:54:22.

very acceptive! The whole point about centrist political agenda is

:54:22.:54:28.

it does contain significant elements of left-wing thinking sh if you

:54:28.:54:32.

remove the left-wing elements it is not a centrist political agenda.

:54:32.:54:39.

Where would you put your... We are at the wrong end of the argument.

:54:39.:54:43.

David Cameron tried to do it and at the wrong end of the argument.

:54:43.:54:48.

flunked it, Miliband has put out a proposal will be much modified by

:54:48.:54:52.

time it happen, one way or another politicians will be forced to

:54:52.:54:56.

respond to the fact that household energy, in cold winter, for a lot of

:54:56.:55:01.

Brit, is becoming unaffordable and I think that is really what this

:55:01.:55:06.

conference was about. That is an important point. What is interesting

:55:06.:55:09.

about this debate about energy companies if you like is for a lot

:55:09.:55:13.

of British people, he won't be going forward. 69% of Britains want --

:55:13.:55:19.

Britons want energy to be brought back in to public ownership. He is

:55:19.:55:25.

going back to 70s. Whatever the headlines say, energy barons holding

:55:25.:55:29.

the country to ransom, we have blackmail and bluster because there

:55:29.:55:32.

is an attempt to control energy price, some people are choosing

:55:32.:55:38.

between heating their homes and fooding their kids. And the

:55:38.:55:43.

Twittersphere was stratospheric apparently. You are saying Ed

:55:43.:55:48.

Miliband is terrifying, why? He is scaring... He scares you. He scares

:55:48.:55:53.

the life out of me. Because it is the broader, the broader political

:55:53.:55:59.

context. David Cameron could implement a raft of policies that

:55:59.:56:05.

were add vated by the alternative manifesto I think it was called by

:56:05.:56:11.

the hard right. A number of those would be popular, but in strategic

:56:11.:56:15.

terms for David Cameron, they would be a disaster, because they would

:56:15.:56:19.

communicate, although the individual policies were popular, they would

:56:19.:56:23.

communicate that the Conservative Party was regressing to the sort of

:56:23.:56:27.

politics it has rejected and that is the risk MSP is starting to take. It

:56:27.:56:32.

maybe populist for now, no-one is going to disagree with having their

:56:32.:56:37.

bills brought down. Nobody would say I want to keep my bills high and

:56:38.:56:43.

no-one is going to be, you know, unsupportive of Ed Miliband bashing

:56:43.:56:46.

the bank, and it is popular stuff but does it win elections? People

:56:46.:56:51.

main frightened when it comes to election time. They want stadget

:56:51.:56:55.

stability and security. They don't want a party that is against

:56:55.:56:59.

business. This is the problem. It is stuck in the past, reality we have

:56:59.:57:03.

at the moment, is people are going through the biggest, longest squeeze

:57:03.:57:09.

in living standard since Queen Victoria, the next generation is set

:57:09.:57:13.

to be poorer than the last, people commit to action that will improve

:57:13.:57:18.

their living standards. Cometh the revolution. I cannot believe that Ed

:57:18.:57:23.

Miliband arrived at the Labour Party Conference and wanted to see a

:57:23.:57:26.

series of head loins saying he was taking the country back to the 70s.

:57:26.:57:29.

This is the hysteria... If Miliband taking the country back to the 70s.

:57:29.:57:36.

can put himself at the head of the little people versus a rich elite,

:57:36.:57:40.

and if Cameron allowses that to happen, it is not socialism or

:57:40.:57:44.

capitalism, but it is a winning electoral strategy. That is

:57:44.:57:48.

Cameron's challenge. There is no doubt that Ed Miliband has won the

:57:48.:57:51.

argument about which of the two party leaders is most in touch with

:57:51.:57:57.

the British people. This we go. I haven't heard you say that before.

:57:57.:58:00.

If you look at the opinion polls they ask who is in touch, Ed

:58:00.:58:03.

Miliband, you know, comes out in front. There no doubt about it. It

:58:03.:58:08.

is not about who is in touch. It is not about who empathise, it is who

:58:08.:58:16.

is seen to be best placed to solve it Can I caution your logic, you say

:58:16.:58:21.

are these are the last sort of head hypes you want to see. I have to say

:58:21.:58:24.

the right in the country are in danger of looking like the frothing

:58:24.:58:30.

at the mouth, let me finish, US-style tea party libertarians

:58:30.:58:35.

because these, as I say, the public would like to see, public would like

:58:35.:58:41.

to see him go further, they support public ownership. We will have to

:58:41.:58:48.

stop it there. Thanks to our guests, the One O'Clock News is starting on

:58:49.:58:56.

BBC One and Andrew is back tonight on BBC One with This

:58:56.:58:56.

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