03/10/2013 Daily Politics


03/10/2013

Jo Coburn is joined by former Number 10 special adviser Sean Worth and journalist Phil Collins to discuss the latest political news, including cutting benefits for the under 25s.


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Transcript


LineFromTo

And afternoon and welcome to the Daily Politics. The Conservative

:00:40.:00:44.

list is considering withdrawing benefits from under 25-year-olds who

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are not in work, education or training. We will talk to the

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Treasury Minister Sajid Javid. Will the government's new scheme to

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underwrite billions of pounds' worth of new mortgages help house-buyers,

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or pump up a new house price bubble? Schoolkids will learn how to write

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computer code from next autumn. We will hear from two experts.

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And Adam has been meeting the party animals at conference and finding

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out whether activists go for the serious stuff or the socialising.

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Did you go to bed last night or this morning? Is my mother is watching, I

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was in bed at 12. 5am. What racy beasts. All that in the

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next hour. With me for the whole programme today, two Former Downing

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St insiders. Phil Collins worked for Tony Blair and now writes for the

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towns -- Times, and Sean Worth were in Britain with David Cameron and is

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now at the think-tank Policy Exchange. Let's start with some

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breaking news. In the last half-hour, the Labour leader Ed

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Miliband has released a letter he has written to the owner of the

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Daily Mail, Lord for the mayor, to complain about a Daily Mail reporter

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who he says got into a private memorial event held at Guy 's

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Hospital in London for his uncle, who died earlier this year. I am

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joined now by our political correspondent, who is outside the

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Daily Mail headquarters. What is at Miliband asking your brother made to

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do? He is asking the owner of the Daily Mail and the Mail on Sunday to

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instigate an investigation into what happened yesterday. This was meant

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to be a private memorial service for the Miliband family and close

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colleagues of Professor Harry Keane, an eminent doctor who died recently.

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At that event, a reporter from the Mail on Sunday apparently

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At that event, a reporter from the infiltrated it and was asking

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members of his family about his late father and about the row over the

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Daily Mail story from last weekend, saying that Ralph Miliband, Ed's

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Rather hated Britain. Ed Miliband says this crosses a line of common

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decency, but he's not going to the press complaints commission about

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this. This comes a week before the privy Council discusses a much

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tougher form of press regulation, on which the Daily Mail opposes. He is

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saying to look for the mayor, time to put your house in order. Has the

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Daily Mail responded? They have not responded yet. But as you said, this

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only happened in the last half-hour. I am told a Labour Party official

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will turn up here with an official copy of the letter, but there has

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been no response yet. What will this meeting do in terms of looking ahead

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to what is now being seen as a battle between the Daily Mail and

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what they see as Ed Miliband and his support for strong press regulation?

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Ed Miliband could have decided to lower the temperature today.

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Instead, he has decided to increase the temperature considerably and

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roared on the attack to the Mail on Sunday. This comes just a week

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before this meeting, as I say. There are two different forms of press

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relations being discussed, one which the press quite liked, and a tougher

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one, the statutory underpinning, which they are discussing next week.

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The Daily Mail says that is an attack on press freedom. In its own

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pages, it has said that by Ed Miliband talking about the

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boundaries that newspapers should keep two, this was a sinister

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response, on the row shows that you should not allow politicians

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anywhere near the press. But what has actually happened today was

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across the political spectrum. Nick Clegg expressed sympathy for Ed

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Miliband and denounced the Daily Mail, saying it vilified Britain.

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Francis Maude said something similar. There is a possibility that

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the Daily Mail have shot themselves in the foot and weakened their case

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the Daily Mail have shot themselves for press freedom.

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If you hear any response from the Daily Mail while we are now, we will

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come back to you. Sean Worth, has the Daily Mail crossed the line in

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terms of sending a reporter to this private memorial gathering?

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Absolutely. Ed Miliband's reaction has not been about this regulation.

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This seems to be personal, exactly the way he responded to the initial

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article about his father. The prime minister and other politicians have

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been saying that others would react in the same way. So he was right to

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go after them, because on this occasion, they overstepped the mark.

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What do you think Lord for the mayor and the Daily Mail will do? They

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will probably double up. It is impossible to fathom what they are

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doing. I think they crossed the line before with the original article,

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which was a worthless piece of rubbish. Then they crossed it again

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when they reprinted it, alongside Ed Miliband's Right to reply. When you

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say rubbish, are you talking about the headline? We already knew much

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of the substance about Ralph Miliband in terms of his lyrical

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leanings. So do you think all of the article was rubbish, or the

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headline? The supposition that he hated Britain is nonsensical. Nobody

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who landed on the Normandy beaches or was in the Royal Navy has to beg

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for the right to be thought of as a British patriotic op Ralph Miliband

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did more in a day's work than any hack will ever do. So the idea that

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a few scattered remarks could constitute hating Britain was

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absurd. You said Ed Miliband's stance has not been about beefing up

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as revelation, but the Daily Mail see it in that way. They feel there

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is a battle. They have tried to link his father's views and the fact that

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his father influenced Ed Miliband, and what could happen with press

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regulation. Are they want? I agree with most of what Phil says about

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the original article, but Ed Miliband does write about the

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influence of his parents on his political views. So there are

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journalists that want to go into that. But you are right, when it

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became personal about that individual, that was wrong. It is a

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family thing, not about regulation. On that front, many people have

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sympathy with him. I suspect it will not alter the Leveson argument in

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the end. I think it was likely that the outcome would be to choose the

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cross-party consensus deal anyway, which would then lead to a stalemate

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with the press. I don't take that has changed.

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Now, time for our daily quiz. The question for today is, what new

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access arena was Boris Johnson, the mayor of London, spotted wearing

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yesterday? Was it a trilby, a cravat, a pair of glasses or a

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monocle? At the end of the show, Phil and Sean have the honour and

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privilege of giving us the correct cancer.

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So, the three main party conferences are over for another year. It was a

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busy few weeks, with all three party leaders trying to woo voters with

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shining new policies and positive messages. Let's look back at some of

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the main announcements. Wicklow messages. Let's look back at some of

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tried to attract as with stories of how the Lib Dems have softened the

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nasty Tories and promised free school meals for all infants. Ed

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Miliband tried to seduce us with his vow to address the cost of living

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crisis. He said he would build 200 as new homes each year by 2020 and

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freeze energy bills until March 2017. David Cameron's pitch was

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about sticking to the course and showing us that only the

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Conservatives can build a land of opportunity. He promised to make the

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dream of home ownership a reality for more people by bringing forward

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his Help To Buy mortgage guarantee scheme, now starting next week. He

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also pledged to clamp down on welfare claimants who refuse to

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work, and end the automatic entitlement housing benefit and

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jobseeker's allowance for under 25s. There are still over a million

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young people not in education, employment or training. Today, it is

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still possible to leave school, sign on, find a flat, start claiming

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housing benefit and opt for a life on benefits. Isn't it time for bold

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action here? We should ask, as we write our next manifesto, if that

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option should exist at all. Instead, we should give young people a clear

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and positive choice. Go to school, go to college, do an apprenticeship,

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get a job. But just choose the dole? We have got to offer them something

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better. We have been joined by the Treasury minister Sajid Javid and

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the Liberal Democrat MP Julian Huppert. Sajid Javid, the majority

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of the blunder 25 who are claiming housing benefit have dependents. How

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would this policy affect them? Well, David Cameron announced a high-level

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announcement yesterday around the direction of Conservative Lizzie,

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something we plan to put into our manifesto. -- Conservative policy.

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For under 25s, there will be two options, burning on learning. That

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is not just because it is the right thing to do for those individuals,

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but it is also right for hard-working taxpayers who are

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paying for these benefits. So that will affect under 25s claiming

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housing benefits who have children? It will affect all under 25s. You

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could take that argument to someone who loses their job, they are out of

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work temporarily. Maybe they have not signed up for a course, they

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lose their benefit, their family could be out on the street? There is

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a lot of detail to work out, because this is something we will get ready

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in our manifesto. There are not answers yet. People might be worried

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if they are in their situation, and with the fluctuating job market,

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people will be concerned. That is why we want to set out policy. But

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you don't know the detail yet 's it will also depend on a Conservative

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majority government, but our intention is clear. Thousands of

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young people slide into a life on benefits when they leave compulsory

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education. That is not acceptable. Julian Huppert, shouldn't there be a

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straightforward choice, you either find a job or get training, or you

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lose your benefits? It is helpful to see this message coming from the

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Conservatives. This is the sort of thing we have stopped from happening

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while we have been in government, this sort of unpleasant approach. We

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do need to help young people get into employment or training. But

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taking away the support that many of them desperately need will not help.

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There are too many of these people, the numbers started shooting at a

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decade ago when the economy was doing well. The last government let

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them down. We have stopped the growth. It is about providing

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opportunities, helping people to learn and earn, not punishing the

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most vulnerable. For we get onto whether you are punishing the

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vulnerable, do you agree that the Liberal Democrats have stopped your

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unpleasant, as Julian says, policy? No. This is a coalition government.

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We have different points of view. You could not introduce it under a

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coalition. If Julian represents all Lib Dems, then we couldn't. This is

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for our manifesto, but it sets a clear direction and builds on the

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reform of the welfare system under Iain Duncan Smith and our reforms

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under Michael Gove. But isn't the problem is that there are not enough

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jobs around for young people? 1 million young people unemployed, and

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taking away their benefit will punish them 's well, jobs are being

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created. But how many young people are unemployed? Youth unemployed and

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is falling, but it is still a problem. Part of dealing with that

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is falling, but it is still a issue is having a welfare system

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that helps people get into the world of work, but also having an

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education system that gives them the skills that companies want. Julian,

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it costs £1.2 billion a year. You yourself say there are too many

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young people in this situation. You need a it. B we have already stopped

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this from happening. This was pushed for by Conservatives in previous

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budgets. We discussed this and stopped it from happening. We do

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need to do more will stop some of that is about getting rid of some of

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the benefit traps. I had an autistic man who worked in my office who was

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only allowed to work for six hours a week because if he worked for any

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more, he ended up with less money. He was applying for jobs and

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eventually found a full-time job, but stopping him on being able to go

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eventually found a full-time job, to ten or 16 hours was ridiculous. I

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am pleased that we are getting rid to ten or 16 hours was ridiculous. I

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of that. It has to be about things like the Deputy Prime Minister's

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youth contract to help young people, rather than to hit them hard. I have

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taken the YMCA to see Iain Duncan Smith to talk about the people who

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are living in the YMCA who need help, who don't have a family to go

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back to. The politics of this are interesting, Sean Worth, as we see

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the coalition partners divert from each other? Very. You hit the nail

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on the head when you talked about detail. Look at something like the

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bedroom tax, spare room subsidy, depending on which party you are in.

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Human stories started to come out of that where there were anomalies.

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Then you see the public support starts to evaporate. So as long as

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the Tories do some decent work on that, so that we don't see these

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anomalies such as disabled people's medical rooms being brought into

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this, it could be some support. Do you agree? No, I think it would be a

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disaster. It is not the case that everyone is thinking, I will either

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joined McKinsey or I will go on the dole. The vast majority of people

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will have to go into some form of training. Where will that come

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from? We don't have the provision for that. Where would the money come

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from, Sajid Javid? Of course there will be a demand for training. And

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where would the money come from? As we work out the detail, I can give

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you more information if you invite me back. We certainly will. I just

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think it is interesting over this period that both the Liberal

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Democrats and the Conservatives, despite boasting about being

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fiscally disciplined, have been announcing things that will cost

:16:30.:16:33.

money. If the end result is that more people end up in work and not a

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life of benefits, it is good for them and good for the economy. We

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have costed up looking at long-term unemployment, and the coalition will

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look at introducing that from April next year, and it will cost £300

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million in the short term. We are willing to make that investment

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because it will help the long-term unemployed to get the help they want

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to get back into work. One of the great policy failures in Britain in

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the last 50 years has been the lack of provision for people who don't go

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through academic courses and on to university, and David Cameron has

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said he is going to fix that. This is a colossal task he has set

:17:18.:17:21.

himself, and I don't get any sense that you understand the scale. We

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have had a dysfunctional welfare system for many years, and the

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changes that Iain Duncan Smith is brought about, the introduction of

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universal credit and some of the other changes mentioned, they are

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not easy, and they might have teething issues. Added is the right

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direction of policy, because we can't continue to have a welfare

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system that denies people the right to work by giving them the wrong

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incentives and a budget that is out of control. Welfare spending under

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the previous government went up by 57%, and that is unacceptable.

:17:52.:17:58.

Thank you very much. The big theme of David Cameron's conference speech

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yesterday was making Britain a land of opportunity. Here he is talking

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about the Government's plan to underwrite new mortgages up to the

:18:07.:18:10.

value of £600,000. In a land of opportunity, we must

:18:10.:18:14.

make sure that more people are able to own a home of their own. Your

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make sure that more people are able home is your castle. For most young

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people today, their home is their landlord's. It is starting to make

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them wonder why they bother. They are stuck in rental accommodation

:18:32.:18:35.

when they are desperate to buy. I met a couple on Sunday, Emily and

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James. They both had decent jobs, but because they didn't have rich

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parents, they couldn't get big big enough deposit to buy a house. And

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let me tell you where I met them. In their new home, built in their help

:18:48.:18:52.

to buy mortgage scheme. It was still half built, but they showed me where

:18:52.:18:56.

the kitchen was going to be. Outside was rubble all over the ground, but

:18:56.:18:59.

they had already bought a lawn mower. They talked about how excited

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they were to be spending their first Christmas in a home of their own. My

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friends, that is what we are about, and the party of aspiration will

:19:10.:19:12.

finish the job on home ownership that we started.

:19:12.:19:16.

Sajid Javid is still with us. David Cameron says that this is gay to

:19:16.:19:19.

help young people buy their first home. But if you look at the figures

:19:19.:19:23.

involved, this scheme will be out of reach for many people. The average

:19:23.:19:29.

house in the UK costs £242,000, so a 95% mortgage means you would have to

:19:29.:19:37.

borrow £230,000. You would need a salary of over £57,000 to avoid

:19:37.:19:41.

that. That is beyond the reach of many, many people. This isn't a

:19:41.:19:46.

scheme just for young people. It is a scheme for everyone. That would

:19:46.:19:53.

apply to everyone. Many people in their late 30s or even 40s still

:19:53.:19:58.

haven't managed to buy a home will stop and the figure that you are

:19:58.:20:01.

using is not the average price of a first home, that would be a lot

:20:01.:20:09.

less. Everyone I have ever met aspires to own their own home. We

:20:09.:20:12.

want to help them with that. It is perfectly natural. There are

:20:13.:20:17.

millions of people out there, young and not so young, who can afford

:20:17.:20:20.

payments, and the Prime Minister gave an example in his speech, but

:20:20.:20:24.

they don't have the savings for the deposit. Ten or 15 years ago, the

:20:24.:20:28.

average deposit required was around £10,000. Today it is closer to

:20:28.:20:38.

£30,000. In the early 2000s, it would take you for five years to

:20:38.:20:42.

save that, but now it will take you 25 years. If people haven't got

:20:42.:20:49.

access to a big pot of savings or rich parents, they can't afford

:20:49.:20:54.

those homes. But because they have got the income, they can afford the

:20:54.:20:58.

mortgage repayments. I understand the thinking behind it, but I'm

:20:58.:21:01.

trying to work out who it is going to help. The sorts of people you are

:21:01.:21:03.

talking about who don't have that to help. The sorts of people you are

:21:03.:21:05.

income or help from parents, what to help. The sorts of people you are

:21:06.:21:09.

sort of salary, in your mind, does someone have to earn to benefit from

:21:09.:21:15.

this scheme, if you say my £230,000 for an average home is not the price

:21:15.:21:19.

of an average first-time home. Let's take the example the Brymon is to.

:21:19.:21:22.

of an average first-time home. Let's The two individuals -- let's take

:21:22.:21:27.

the example the Prime Minister referred to. Those two individuals

:21:27.:21:35.

had an income of £25,000 each, and they can easily afford payments even

:21:35.:21:39.

on a 95% mortgage, even once you they can easily afford payments even

:21:39.:21:42.

stress test them and allow for changes in interest rates in the

:21:42.:21:46.

future. Banks are now obligated to do that. But they don't have rich

:21:46.:21:52.

parents. And you often find that people who criticise this scheme,

:21:52.:21:56.

they have their own homes, they have rich parents, and it doesn't really

:21:56.:22:02.

touch them that much, when it does actually affect a lot of people that

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touch them that much, when it does don't have rich parents, but they

:22:04.:22:08.

can afford the payments. If you are trying to help first-time buyers,

:22:08.:22:12.

why does the scheme need to go up to houses worth £600,000? I didn't say

:22:12.:22:18.

it was just for first-time buyers. It is designed to help both

:22:18.:22:22.

first-time buyers and also people that wish to move up the housing

:22:22.:22:27.

ladder. That is a big leap up the housing ladder! Why aren't you

:22:27.:22:31.

focusing just on lower valued houses, or as you say, first-time

:22:31.:22:33.

buyers, since they are the ones who houses, or as you say, first-time

:22:33.:22:37.

need the leg up the ladder. As you know, throughout the United Kingdom,

:22:37.:22:42.

especially in the south-east, you will see a big differentiation in

:22:43.:22:47.

prices. If you are a family of three or four in the south-east, it might

:22:47.:22:50.

be the cost of the home that you need. But it is not just the

:22:50.:22:55.

south-east. If you look at the south-west, people have paid ten

:22:55.:22:58.

times over their average income in order to meet mortgage payments. It

:22:58.:23:04.

isn't just a south-east problem. Is it going to work or is it going to

:23:04.:23:09.

cause a housing bubble? I take some of your points, and I appreciate

:23:09.:23:10.

that this is a serious problem and of your points, and I appreciate

:23:11.:23:14.

it is difficult to find policy, but if this were a Labour scheme, you

:23:14.:23:18.

would be saying, don't these economic illiterate understand that

:23:18.:23:22.

if you just throw more money at something with constraints applied,

:23:22.:23:27.

the price will go up. Answer that question. 10% rises in London. We

:23:27.:23:35.

have a whole list here of mortgage experts, Declan Curran from home

:23:35.:23:38.

fixed direct says that it is likely to create a house price bubble. You

:23:38.:23:47.

are creating the next credit crunch. If left unchecked. If there was a

:23:47.:23:55.

capacity constraint in the market, evidence of a capacity problem, I

:23:55.:23:58.

would be concerned. What is your benchmark? Annual house construction

:23:58.:24:04.

fell to its lowest level since the 1920s under the previous government.

:24:04.:24:09.

It is up 33% since then, but it is still one third below its long-term

:24:09.:24:14.

average. If you are a housing company, and you know there might be

:24:14.:24:17.

more mortgage availability because of this scheme, it helps disperse

:24:17.:24:22.

apply, but to make sure, and to deal with that left unchecked point, we

:24:22.:24:26.

have given powers quite clearly to the Bank of England... And they are

:24:26.:24:33.

worried about it! Know they are not. We have asked them to look at it

:24:33.:24:39.

every September and report back to the government. Is that doing

:24:39.:24:45.

enough? You have to get supply moving, and there is no reason to

:24:45.:24:48.

suppose that you are going to be able to. It is more valuable for the

:24:48.:24:53.

companies to sit on the land. What has changed all that? Why will

:24:53.:24:59.

housing supply suddenly start moving? Some of the planning changes

:24:59.:25:06.

we have made... That won't revolutionise supply in the sort of

:25:06.:25:10.

numbers that you and Ed Miliband are talking about. We have to go on the

:25:10.:25:18.

facts. In the last year, there was a 49% increase in the number of units

:25:18.:25:21.

approved by local authorities, and that is a step in the right

:25:21.:25:26.

direction. Yesterday we heard from the latest PMI reports that

:25:26.:25:28.

construction is rising at its fastest level since ten years ago.

:25:28.:25:33.

It is heading in the right direction, but we need to be

:25:33.:25:38.

vigilant and stay on top of it. Is this good politics and bad

:25:38.:25:43.

economics? The key difference between this and the previous

:25:44.:25:47.

housing bubble is not just the sub-prime, and the wider policy

:25:47.:25:51.

about land release and planning reform. It is the fact that the

:25:51.:25:55.

government is in control of releasing the extra credit into the

:25:55.:25:59.

economy, and as you have just said there, and this hasn't been a big

:25:59.:26:05.

part of the message, to say that you can just turn the taps off. It was a

:26:05.:26:09.

race to the bottom by sub-prime lending by the banks. But the key

:26:09.:26:16.

difference and this is where the right needs to support these

:26:16.:26:21.

measures, the Government can intervene, turn the taps on, monitor

:26:21.:26:26.

this every year, turn it down a bit if it does heat things up too much.

:26:26.:26:31.

One of the issues is the supply issue, and we have yet to see how

:26:31.:26:34.

many homes are built over the next few years. The other issue is the

:26:34.:26:39.

taxpayer underwriting loans where people could in future default. Is

:26:39.:26:43.

that a risk that you are comfortable with, bearing in mind that we could

:26:44.:26:48.

seem ace rate of interest rates rise, not for a few years, but then

:26:48.:26:50.

seem ace rate of interest rates what happens. It is a risk the

:26:50.:26:54.

taxpayer doesn't really have, and the reason is that when we announce

:26:54.:26:56.

this next week, it is clear that it the reason is that when we announce

:26:56.:27:00.

is commercially priced, so it is priced in a way that the Government

:27:00.:27:09.

will break even on this. So there is no effective taxpayer subsidy, and

:27:09.:27:12.

that is what makes it even more powerful. Sajid Javid, thank you.

:27:12.:27:20.

Finishing the job. Britain can do better than this. A stronger economy

:27:20.:27:24.

and a better society. Three better still -- messages from three

:27:24.:27:31.

different party leaders. But can you tell which?

:27:31.:27:37.

There are some of us, Mr Chairman, who will fight and fight and fight

:27:37.:27:44.

again to save the party we love. The Britain that is going to be forged

:27:44.:27:49.

in the white heat of this revolution will be no place for restrictive

:27:49.:27:53.

practices of outdated methods on either side of industry. I have only

:27:53.:27:59.

one thing to say. You turn if you want to, but the Lady's not for

:27:59.:28:11.

turning. And you end in the grotesque chaos of a Labour council,

:28:11.:28:19.

a Labour council hiring taxis to scuttle around the city handing out

:28:19.:28:24.

redundancy notices to its own workers. We have to have our

:28:24.:28:28.

agreements in public and our disagreements in Private. This is a

:28:28.:28:35.

modern party living in an age of change. It requires a modern

:28:35.:28:40.

constitution that says what we are in terms the public and understand

:28:40.:28:50.

-- cannot misunderstand. Tony Blair, looking a little younger there. Your

:28:50.:28:54.

favourite of the three conferences this year? I thought Ed Miliband's

:28:54.:29:00.

was the best performance. I am not sure it will last is content. A bit

:29:00.:29:05.

calmer and's was solid and workmanlike, and although it will be

:29:05.:29:13.

instantly forgotten, in a sense, that was the point -- David

:29:13.:29:21.

Cameron's was solid and workmanlike. The decision to be Dell was probably

:29:21.:29:33.

the right one. -- to be dull. Is that right? You would think that the

:29:33.:29:40.

pressure would be more on David Cameron to produce more. I think the

:29:40.:29:49.

key difference this year is that normally in this kind of period in a

:29:49.:29:55.

Parliament, you would be expecting an election in May. But this is a

:29:55.:30:00.

fixed term Parliament, so you don't need to air these things. It was

:30:00.:30:06.

workmanlike because it had to set out a clear stall. Nick Clegg,

:30:06.:30:11.

exactly the same, but for policy reasons. And there was some of the

:30:12.:30:16.

theatre about the dog and all the reasons. And there was some of the

:30:16.:30:20.

rest of it. Yes, the personal stories. But Ed Miliband had a

:30:20.:30:27.

rest of it. Yes, the personal bigger problem going into the

:30:27.:30:31.

conferences, he had to do something to give him cut through, and the

:30:31.:30:35.

freezing of the energy prices policy, to some extent, did that. It

:30:35.:30:47.

has excited the attention of people who don't normally watch politics.

:30:47.:30:50.

And it is a web conference speech that does that. Most of them don't.

:30:50.:30:56.

The clips you saw were all big political moments and descriptions

:30:56.:30:59.

of major political events. My favourite was Neil Kinnock's

:30:59.:31:04.

magnificent speech. It was a really big moment. There was nothing

:31:04.:31:08.

comparable in these conferences that was sufficiently big for anyone to

:31:08.:31:09.

hang a speech on how we will was sufficiently big for anyone to

:31:09.:31:15.

remember for anyone. What about Nick Clegg? He had a confident

:31:15.:31:17.

performance. He probably thinks he Clegg? He had a confident

:31:17.:31:21.

has got over the worst. There is no serious challenge to his leadership.

:31:21.:31:25.

Maybe he felt liberated by that. Yeah, the Lib Dems I spoke to at

:31:25.:31:31.

that conference came back happy. They had had some sort of permission

:31:31.:31:36.

to go into any government in the next Parliament. Trident, they got

:31:36.:31:43.

through energy. They are not obsessed with constitutional reform

:31:43.:31:48.

in the way they were in the past. On the point about catching the

:31:48.:31:52.

imagination, Ed Miliband got all the headlines. But I was captured by the

:31:52.:31:58.

other thing he did, which was go on to the Tories' turf about small

:31:58.:32:02.

businesses. When you are an opposition leader, the way to

:32:02.:32:06.

capture attention is to be controversial, but also to be

:32:06.:32:10.

counterintuitive. To me, this was the first time I really saw him

:32:10.:32:15.

starting to work as an opposition leader. He has a personal

:32:15.:32:21.

credibility problem, so policy is the thing. The rhythm of conferences

:32:21.:32:28.

and has been interrupted. Do you think next year, they will be

:32:28.:32:31.

and has been interrupted. Do you barnstormers? Not necessarily. But

:32:31.:32:35.

they will be different, because we will then be a year from an

:32:35.:32:39.

election, and there will be a desire to be prime ministerial on the part

:32:39.:32:44.

of all three. Nick Clegg, you never used to get Liberal Democrat leaders

:32:44.:32:49.

doing prime ministerial speeches, but now you do, and they like it.

:32:49.:32:53.

There was a weird passage where he detailed a lot of things that had

:32:53.:32:56.

not happened, but would have happened, had it not been for the

:32:56.:33:01.

Liberal Democrats. It is a novelty in political rhetoric. These things

:33:01.:33:07.

have not happened, let's cheer! Now, we are going to imagine the scene.

:33:07.:33:11.

A party conference is. You are looking to have a good time. Listen

:33:11.:33:16.

to a discussion on infrastructure investment and regional growth, or

:33:16.:33:20.

check out the drinks reception and parties on the conference fringe?

:33:20.:33:23.

Adam has been finding out what kind of party animals go to Conservative

:33:23.:33:28.

Party conference. Let's get to the truth of why these

:33:28.:33:31.

people are actually here. Is it for the party, or is it really for the

:33:32.:33:41.

parties? That is an easy one, the parties. What is the best party you

:33:41.:33:49.

have into? Reception. Why was it so good? It was a great laugh. The

:33:49.:33:54.

have into? Reception. Why was it so serious stuff, but that is most

:33:54.:33:59.

important. But I love the social stuff. I will go for the parties,

:33:59.:34:03.

because they don't stage manage that. When did you go to bed last

:34:03.:34:09.

night? If my mother is watching, I was in bed at 12. 5am, I got home.

:34:09.:34:17.

That is hard-core. Go and vote. Loving the vote is. The drink is

:34:17.:34:22.

good, but the party is important, and it is the best party. The party

:34:22.:34:30.

stuff, absolutely. Yesterday, we went to one with Liam Fox. Is he a

:34:30.:34:39.

party animal? I imagine so. Which led to go party has the best

:34:39.:34:43.

parties? Obviously, the Conservatives know how to party. The

:34:44.:34:50.

Labour Party like karaoke. But we know how to do it properly! Can I

:34:50.:34:57.

put one in each? OK. I don't want to spoil the party spirit. The party,

:34:57.:35:09.

of course. You like a night out, don't you? No matter though I

:35:09.:35:13.

enjoyed the politics and the people who make up the party and seeing

:35:13.:35:19.

what's of friends. The party is first and the parties are second.

:35:19.:35:23.

What is more important, the part of political stuff all the parties?

:35:23.:35:30.

Which do you prefer? Governing. He says governing is more fun than a

:35:30.:35:35.

party. Best party was the south-west area deception last night. Prime

:35:35.:35:44.

minister Cameron turned up. You have to be pretty sad to love the

:35:44.:35:48.

Conservative Party more than a free pint, so I have to say the parties.

:35:48.:35:59.

Cheers. I had you down as a partying man? No, I am a Presbyterian. What

:35:59.:36:08.

is the latest you have been to bed this week 's I am always tucked up

:36:08.:36:13.

before mid-night. You don't have to choose, you get both at a

:36:13.:36:17.

conference. The Conservative grassroots are clearly a bunch of

:36:17.:36:21.

party animals, although more people have gone for the serious side than

:36:21.:36:24.

the frivolous side. I have got some party invites. See you later.

:36:24.:36:31.

We have not seen Adam Fleming since then! You are watching the Daily

:36:31.:36:36.

Politics, and we have been joined by viewers in Scotland, who have been

:36:36.:36:39.

Politics, and we have been joined by watching First Minister's Questions

:36:39.:36:42.

from Holyrood. Phil Collins from the Times and Sean were from the

:36:42.:36:45.

politics to enjoy with me. Did you believe the cabinet minister is when

:36:45.:36:48.

they said they didn't do the parties? I cannot believe they don't

:36:48.:36:58.

go to some. I have seen them at some. Maybe you would go to bed

:36:58.:37:01.

early if you had a media meeting in the morning. The Conservative

:37:01.:37:06.

conference is a great time to let your hair down and meet everybody,

:37:06.:37:09.

so I am not surprised the parties won over the politics. Attendants

:37:09.:37:15.

follows a political cycle. In the first few years, they go to all of

:37:15.:37:22.

them. By year four, they stop going. By year five, they don't go to

:37:22.:37:26.

anything. By then, you have got no friends in the press, so you think,

:37:26.:37:29.

I am not going to the Guardian's party. I think if the food and drink

:37:29.:37:40.

are good, it is enough. I tend not to go to parties where Liam Fox is

:37:40.:37:45.

the main attraction. I am sure that will put him off inviting you to the

:37:45.:37:50.

next one. Now, according to Education

:37:50.:37:52.

Secretary Michael Gove, one of the big things to come out of David

:37:52.:37:56.

Cameron's speech yesterday was a commitment to teaching

:37:56.:37:57.

schoolchildren in England how to write computer programmes. On next

:37:58.:38:02.

September, all five to 14-year-olds in state schools will be taught how

:38:02.:38:06.

to code as part of a number of changes to the national curriculum

:38:06.:38:09.

designed to prepare children for the modern workplace. But our school

:38:09.:38:13.

kids up for it? BBC Breakfast spoke to some of those taking part in a

:38:13.:38:17.

national event that brings young coders together. When I write a

:38:17.:38:22.

piece of code, it is exciting to see what it does and in what ways it

:38:22.:38:31.

breaks. It is exciting to imagine that you have made this to do that.

:38:31.:38:38.

I was looking on Google, and I couldn't find an episode list or

:38:38.:38:44.

website, so I thought I would make one. I am very good at web design.

:38:44.:38:51.

It was £60,000 per year on job centre! I love the confidence! I am

:38:51.:38:57.

joined now by Clive Beal, the director of educational development

:38:57.:39:00.

at raspberry pie, and Emma Mulqueeny, who set up an

:39:00.:39:03.

organisation which finds and brings together young coders, some of whom

:39:03.:39:10.

we saw in that film. Clive, we had better explain what you have got in

:39:10.:39:15.

front of us -- in front of you. Tell us about raspberry pie? It is an

:39:15.:39:21.

educational charity. We want to support young people to get them

:39:21.:39:26.

into computing and learn to code and be creative. How difficult is it? I

:39:26.:39:31.

am a bit of a Luddite, but that is partly my age. Looking at these

:39:31.:39:35.

youngsters, they are so much better. Is that worldly the case for most

:39:35.:39:41.

kids? Absolutely. I think we patronise them at an early age, but

:39:41.:39:47.

if you show them the basics, they will blow you away. Show us the

:39:47.:39:50.

basics. How much does that contraption cost? You can buy a

:39:50.:39:59.

Raspberry Pi full £30. That was one of the criteria behind it. You can

:39:59.:40:03.

buy your own computer for £20 to £30. It is a general purpose

:40:03.:40:12.

computer. We designed it to be accessible, so we have got pins on

:40:12.:40:17.

here that I can connect to the outside world. You can put in a

:40:17.:40:23.

phone charger or nest the card. We have got some programming language

:40:23.:40:29.

on here. This one is designed for eight to 14-year-olds to get them

:40:29.:40:33.

into programming. It is a visual programming language. Show us

:40:33.:40:39.

exactly what that can do, in simple terms? So I have got a little cat on

:40:39.:40:49.

the stage. If I clicked on this, he moves about, which is not that much

:40:49.:40:53.

fun, but then I can go and stick it in a loop that goes on for ever. And

:40:53.:40:59.

I can stop him from bouncing on the edge. Really easy to get into for

:40:59.:41:05.

younger children, and they love it. Is that the sort of thing that can

:41:05.:41:11.

get them going? Yes. And most of them will start with a simple

:41:11.:41:16.

programming thing like that. But actually, there are very few

:41:16.:41:19.

children that have access to this kind of stuff, because it has not

:41:19.:41:23.

been taught in schools so far, which is why what has been announced is

:41:23.:41:29.

important. The footage you should be for was filmed at the Festival of

:41:29.:41:38.

code that we ran this summer. Our youngest kids are five, and then it

:41:38.:41:42.

goes up to 18. They start with this, but once they get to grips with the

:41:42.:41:46.

basics, they quickly want to move on to building their own apps or

:41:46.:41:50.

websites, and more importantly, solving problems that they find

:41:50.:41:51.

during the day. They want to find solving problems that they find

:41:51.:41:58.

their own solutions. That is part of the fun of her grabbing. Do you

:41:58.:42:03.

think this will set school alight? B my kids are one and three, and they

:42:03.:42:08.

can both use an iPad. The three-year-old is quite good at it.

:42:08.:42:15.

You will never see your iPad again. But should it be on the curriculum?

:42:15.:42:24.

Definitely. The key thing is make it intuitive and easy, and they will

:42:24.:42:28.

run with it. The future economy will be technology led. We really are in

:42:28.:42:34.

a global race. I don't want to use that hackneyed term. You have just

:42:34.:42:39.

used it! I can't think of a better one. We have got to get these kids

:42:39.:42:46.

doing this stuff, because we need to be world leaders. Do you think it is

:42:46.:42:52.

as important as doing maths and English GCSE? It has to be on the

:42:52.:42:58.

curriculum, because there are lots of children who don't have access to

:42:58.:43:02.

computers. I wonder whether it is like any other language, whether

:43:02.:43:06.

earlier you learn it, the easier it is. There is an element of that, but

:43:06.:43:12.

it is also important to remember that your child is consuming that

:43:12.:43:18.

technology. It is like giving a child a bike, but without giving

:43:18.:43:22.

them any knowledge about how the roads work and how safe they can

:43:22.:43:27.

be. How the digital world operates is the same as giving them an iPad

:43:27.:43:31.

and expecting them to use it, but they have to understand how the

:43:31.:43:37.

digital world works. But Clive, you can't really buy one of those and

:43:37.:43:40.

use it immediate leak, you would have to be shown how to do it,

:43:40.:43:45.

wouldn't you? Or is it simpler than that? It is fairly simple, so you

:43:45.:43:52.

can plug it in and start programming from scratch. Or if you are a bit

:43:52.:43:57.

older, use a programming language like python. I think the earlier,

:43:57.:44:01.

the better, as long as you can understand logic and you like

:44:01.:44:04.

puzzles and playing, which we all do. You are not too young or too old

:44:04.:44:09.

puzzles and playing, which we all to start. Thank you for bringing in

:44:09.:44:13.

the gizmo, Raspberry Pi, and good luck with the coding. There are code

:44:13.:44:18.

clubs, aren't there? But they are voluntary stop I have tried to find

:44:18.:44:25.

one. There is not one in my area. That is the problem, but there was

:44:25.:44:30.

lots of stuff going on. Now onto UKIP. Despite leader Nigel Farage's

:44:30.:44:34.

assertions that the party opposes racism, the party is again sending

:44:34.:44:39.

off accusations of racism in its ranks will stop on this programme

:44:39.:44:42.

yesterday, Lord Heseltine described UKIP is a racist party. Here is what

:44:42.:44:47.

he said. You always have these right-wing, racist operations,

:44:47.:44:50.

pandering to the lowest common denominator in politics. That is

:44:50.:44:57.

what is happening. But when it comes to a general election, the choice

:44:57.:45:02.

will be very simple. This is where the strength of Cameron lives. Do

:45:02.:45:06.

you want Ed Miliband as prime minister, or David Cameron? Are you

:45:06.:45:12.

saying UKIP is racist? Of course. Who doubts that? The language, the

:45:12.:45:18.

rhetoric, the membership, who doubts it? That was Michael has all time,

:45:18.:45:33.

our guest yesterday. -- Michael Heseltine. And we've been joined by

:45:34.:45:38.

Amjad Bashir, who is UKIP's spokesman on small business. You

:45:38.:45:46.

have given this has been politician the chance to level these

:45:46.:45:52.

accusations against us. There was a picture in the paper of Nigel

:45:53.:45:58.

Farage, with the microphone looking like it was a Nazi moustache. We are

:45:58.:46:04.

a mainstream political party with 30,000 members. We got over 1

:46:04.:46:09.

million votes in the last elections in May. We are a serious player, and

:46:09.:46:14.

you can't treat us like this. Would you do that on the front page with

:46:14.:46:21.

David Cameron? You are now having the right to reply following what

:46:21.:46:28.

Michael Heseltine said, and he is quite a distinguished politician,

:46:28.:46:33.

albeit a formal one. Of course we would use a picture of David Cameron

:46:33.:46:38.

or Ed Miliband just the same. These standards are being applied to Nigel

:46:38.:46:42.

Farage that have always been applied to other leaders, and the question

:46:42.:46:47.

is whether he can stand up to it. We to other leaders, and the question

:46:47.:46:53.

are trying to have a serious discussion about immigration. Are

:46:53.:46:58.

you seriously suggesting that there are no racists in UKIP? Michael

:46:58.:47:05.

Heseltine said yesterday that UKIP was racist. Look at me, look at my

:47:05.:47:10.

ethnicity. Are you saying that there was racist. Look at me, look at my

:47:10.:47:17.

are no racists in UKIP? There are 30,000 members out there. These

:47:17.:47:22.

accusations are levelled by the BBC a gain and again. They are not

:47:22.:47:27.

levelled by the BBC, Michael Heseltine was our guest. Friday or

:47:27.:47:32.

members keep getting caught up in controversy? These accusations are

:47:32.:47:37.

not made up, they are based on stories that come out. They haven't

:47:37.:47:44.

come from nowhere. This is silly. We have just selected somebody to run

:47:44.:47:49.

for Orpington who is of Indonesian Muslim background. Here I am running

:47:49.:47:55.

as a potential MEP for Yorkshire and North Lincolnshire. What did you

:47:55.:48:03.

make of Godfrey Bloom? I am of Pakistani background. I have worked

:48:03.:48:06.

in this country for 50 years. Would they select me if they were racist?

:48:06.:48:13.

Is it racist to refer to foreign places as Bongo Bongo Land? The

:48:13.:48:20.

point that he made was very relevant. He was talking about

:48:20.:48:26.

foreign aid. The party distance itself from those two lines. Because

:48:26.:48:29.

foreign aid. The party distance it was racist. It is not right to

:48:29.:48:36.

dwell on that too much. He has been withdrawn the whip. He is no longer

:48:36.:48:40.

going to run for the party. That was as a result of his other comment

:48:40.:48:45.

about women, rather than Bongo Bongo Land. But you distanced yourself

:48:45.:48:49.

because it wasn't appropriate language. You are not talking about

:48:49.:48:56.

the real subject. You are saying it is very unfair that people are

:48:56.:49:00.

accusing the party of being racist. So is it racist to describe a female

:49:00.:49:05.

journalist as from some form of ethnic extraction? He is married to

:49:05.:49:19.

an Indian lady who comes from Australia. He was trying to describe

:49:19.:49:25.

the journalist. Would you describe anybody as being somebody who is of

:49:25.:49:30.

some form of ethnic extraction? This is political correctness gone mad.

:49:30.:49:36.

Allow people the latitude to go further. This is stifling the debate

:49:36.:49:43.

on racism. I am somebody who is of Pakistani background who lives in

:49:43.:49:46.

this country. I have experienced racism. Lord Heseltine hasn't

:49:46.:49:50.

this country. I have experienced experienced this. He doesn't know

:49:50.:49:57.

anything about racism. What do you say to that? Amjad Bashir is of

:49:57.:50:03.

Pakistani origin, and how can the party be racist if they have him in

:50:03.:50:08.

the party? If the party was officially racist comment he

:50:08.:50:11.

wouldn't be sitting here now, I agree with that. But you have party

:50:11.:50:19.

officials being outed as former BNP members, and Nigel Farage said, we

:50:19.:50:23.

don't have tonnes of money to do the disciplined checks. The key point

:50:23.:50:33.

for UKIP is probably learning from that complete implosion at

:50:33.:50:34.

for UKIP is probably learning from conference, that when you do become

:50:34.:50:38.

popular, you come under massive scrutiny, and your party needs to

:50:38.:50:42.

have a disciplined operation of briefing and messaging. I don't know

:50:42.:50:47.

if you have the resources to do that, but that is the key difference

:50:47.:50:53.

between UKIP and other parties. We already have 12 MEPs. So why is your

:50:53.:51:02.

discipline so poor? All these things that you mention, and I take that on

:51:02.:51:06.

board, these are things we are going to address. Because you have lost

:51:06.:51:13.

45% of your MEPs since 2009. That is not a sign of a disciplined party.

:51:13.:51:18.

It is a very disciplined party going forward. I hope to instil that

:51:18.:51:23.

discipline. I have worked hard over the last 30 years in business. Our

:51:23.:51:30.

main supporters, one of them is of Pakistani background, and was

:51:30.:51:34.

responsible for that leaflet that Michael Crick tried to expose to

:51:34.:51:44.

Godfrey, where are the Asian faces? Is it a racist party? There is a

:51:44.:51:49.

difference between being a racist party, which it is not, and Michael

:51:49.:51:53.

Heseltine did not say that, and an accusation that in a party which is

:51:53.:51:57.

part of a splinter group of smaller parties on the right, there are some

:51:57.:52:02.

people who hold racist views, and that seems an answer a bleak true. I

:52:02.:52:09.

beg to differ. We are not a party of the extreme right. We're appealing

:52:09.:52:17.

to voters across-the-board. 30% from Labour. We are gaining ground all

:52:17.:52:22.

over the North. Amjad Bashir, I have to stop it there. Thank you very

:52:22.:52:26.

much. You may think some politicians are

:52:26.:52:36.

beyond parity. Peter Brookes's cartoons have betrayed various

:52:36.:52:43.

leaders. Here is some of his work. And Peter Brookes has joined us.

:52:43.:53:47.

Sign of the Times is out today. Where'd you get the inspiration

:53:47.:53:53.

from? The politicians. The ideas come from me, and the agony comes

:53:53.:54:02.

from it. Is there agony? Yes, quite often there is, come for clock in

:54:02.:54:07.

the afternoon. There is a process to doing them, but every day is

:54:07.:54:11.

different, and everyday's news is different. What is the process? The

:54:11.:54:23.

process is listening to the Today programme. Watching the Daily

:54:23.:54:34.

Politics as Mac indeed! I do have radio and television on a lot. I get

:54:34.:54:41.

a lot of feedback from that sort of thing. And then I am thinking and

:54:41.:54:49.

trying to come to terms with what I want to say and what the target is,

:54:49.:55:00.

and putting it all together. Has a coalition government provided you

:55:00.:55:06.

with rich pickings. Has it been easier with two parties in

:55:06.:55:16.

government? Yes, because from day one of the campaign, I came up with

:55:16.:55:22.

the idea of Clegg being Cameron's fag. You can actually make that work

:55:22.:55:35.

within this format. I find that inventing things all the time, ways

:55:35.:55:38.

of humiliating Clegg by Cameron, is one of life's Rita joys for me. --

:55:38.:55:58.

one of life's great joys. And you will need a new haircut for George

:55:58.:56:07.

Osborne now. I have heard that the traditional cartoon is under

:56:07.:56:10.

pressure. Due to the joys of winged journalism. You do get a lot of

:56:10.:56:16.

cartoons appearing online in various forms, and once newspapers start to

:56:16.:56:23.

disappear, which may or may not be in the not too distant future, I

:56:23.:56:26.

hope not, but it could happen, then we will die out. Ed Miliband doesn't

:56:26.:56:34.

escape you either. I'm sure everyone has heard of Ed Miliband being

:56:35.:56:42.

compared to Wallace and Gromit. Are you laughing? Philip Larkin was once

:56:42.:56:52.

asked, weighed you get your ideas from, and he said, sheer genius.

:56:52.:56:58.

When we discuss which of us will ever be remembered by anyone, if it

:56:58.:57:04.

is not one of us, it is very definitely going to be Peter

:57:04.:57:08.

Brookes. How did Ed Miliband respond to this? I have done quite a lot of

:57:08.:57:17.

these, and apparently the people around him have talked about the

:57:17.:57:24.

fact that Wallace is a national hero and endlessly resourceful. Trying to

:57:24.:57:30.

put the spin on it! Is there a line you won't cross? That is difficult

:57:30.:57:37.

to say. It is terribly difficult to say. I can only answer that from

:57:37.:57:44.

each day's experience. Let's have a look at the final one, this is a bit

:57:44.:57:51.

different. Every cartoon isn't necessarily a

:57:52.:57:58.

laughter cartoon, and I'm dealing with a lot of serious matters. And I

:57:58.:58:10.

am, by nature, not afraid, not an interventionist. And the whole point

:58:10.:58:16.

of this cartoon was that Abu Qatada was having a gun held to his head

:58:16.:58:25.

whilst at the same time Cameron was arming, or not. Thank you very much.

:58:25.:58:32.

There's just time before we go to find out the answer to our quiz. The

:58:32.:58:35.

question was: What new accessory was Boris Johnson spotted wearing

:58:35.:58:41.

yesterday? The answer: A new pair of glasses, which Boris described as

:58:41.:58:46.

being "a bit Elton John". We gave it away! Peter Brookes, thank you very

:58:46.:58:53.

much. That's all for today. Thanks to Phil Collins, Sean Worth and all

:58:53.:58:57.

my guests. I will be back tomorrow. Goodbye.

:58:57.:58:59.

Jo Coburn is joined by former Number 10 special adviser Sean Worth and journalist Phil Collins to discuss the latest political news, including cutting benefits for under 25-year-olds and the government's extension of the Help to Buy scheme.


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