Browse content similar to 17/10/2013. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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afternoon, folks. Welcome to the Daily Politics. The dish gas has an | :00:40. | :00:46. | |
early Christmas present for you. Electricity is up 10.4%. Gas is up | :00:47. | :00:52. | |
8.4%. That's both from late November. The company says it | :00:53. | :00:58. | |
understands the frustration. The Energy Secretary says he is | :00:59. | :01:01. | |
disappointed. He urges unhappy customers to switch to other | :01:02. | :01:05. | |
providers. Should benefits for wealthy pensioners be cut? And | :01:06. | :01:14. | |
should the win, when -- minimum wage be increased? Expect Alex Salmond to | :01:15. | :01:25. | |
address the SNP conference later, but can he smile his way to the | :01:26. | :01:32. | |
independent Scotland he desires? And I'll be asking why the government | :01:33. | :01:35. | |
wants to change the rules on what is an official secret. But don't tell | :01:36. | :01:41. | |
anybody about it. All of that is in the next hour. With us for the | :01:42. | :01:47. | |
duration is a man with a CV as long as my arm. A scientist, journalist, | :01:48. | :01:53. | |
businessman, peer of the realm, officially the 5th Viscount Ridley. | :01:54. | :01:57. | |
But we don't do titles on the show, so he is just plain old Matt Ridley. | :01:58. | :02:04. | |
First, the House of Lords, our guest is one of those, he has been | :02:05. | :02:10. | |
actually elected. Not by you or me, but he won an election as a | :02:11. | :02:13. | |
Conservative peer, making one of the so-called 92, the number of | :02:14. | :02:17. | |
hereditary peers that retained membership by being elected by other | :02:18. | :02:21. | |
members. There is a report out from the Commons committee, that wants to | :02:22. | :02:25. | |
do away with that, saying that hereditary peers should not be | :02:26. | :02:30. | |
replaced in this way when they die. The report from the Political and | :02:31. | :02:33. | |
Constitutional Reform Committee also backs moves to expel lawbreaking | :02:34. | :02:38. | |
peers and those members that do not attend on a regular basis. That | :02:39. | :02:42. | |
should be a pretty big cull, if you start to take them out. Time to do | :02:43. | :02:47. | |
away with hereditary peers? Lords reform is needed, everybody agrees | :02:48. | :02:53. | |
we need some kind of reform. But to pick on this one element, hereditary | :02:54. | :02:56. | |
peers and stop the elections to allow them to replace themselves, | :02:57. | :03:00. | |
that would be a pity. I'm in favour of an all elected house. How would | :03:01. | :03:05. | |
you elected? Some kind of regional system. I wonder why we can't go | :03:06. | :03:10. | |
back to the ancient Greek system of picking them by Lott. Out of a hat? | :03:11. | :03:18. | |
The committee suggests expelling lawbreakers and non-attendees. I | :03:19. | :03:21. | |
think a lot of people would be surprised that doesn't happen | :03:22. | :03:24. | |
already. If you break the law, why should you sit and make laws for us? | :03:25. | :03:28. | |
If you don't bother to turn up for a long while, why should you be | :03:29. | :03:32. | |
allowed in the place? I think that is a fair comment. I suspect a lot | :03:33. | :03:36. | |
of people in the House of Lords would probably agree. One of the | :03:37. | :03:40. | |
things that is most frustrating is that the House of Lords is now | :03:41. | :03:45. | |
enormous. The government has announced it is going to install | :03:46. | :03:49. | |
another 30 or so peers. Where are they going to go? Good point. We | :03:50. | :03:56. | |
should blame Tony Blair for this. He started by increasing the number | :03:57. | :03:58. | |
enormous e-commerce that Labour had a majority over the Conservatives. | :03:59. | :04:04. | |
So, David is clawing his way back towards a majority over Labour. He | :04:05. | :04:10. | |
is not quite there yet. The House of Lords, which overall does not really | :04:11. | :04:13. | |
matter, is now eight times larger than the US Senate, which is the | :04:14. | :04:17. | |
most important legislative body in the world? I think we are something | :04:18. | :04:22. | |
like the only other house in the world that is larger than the lower | :04:23. | :04:29. | |
house. You are even bigger than the European Parliament. That is not | :04:30. | :04:33. | |
exactly a byword for efficiency. That may come to our defence for a | :04:34. | :04:36. | |
second. The House of Lords is full of expertise. This studio is full of | :04:37. | :04:41. | |
experts. Why do we need them in the Lords? To introduce legislation for | :04:42. | :04:48. | |
the better. People can influence things on the show, the Commons has | :04:49. | :04:52. | |
to take notice of them. It is a club for dumping the establishment when | :04:53. | :04:55. | |
there is nothing else to do with them. You sit in Cabinet, Labour, | :04:56. | :04:59. | |
Conservative and Lib Dem, when that bit is over you get kicked upstairs | :05:00. | :05:03. | |
and you still collect the dosh, you get to use House of Lords notepaper. | :05:04. | :05:10. | |
A lot of bills come to the House of Lords in a state of disarray and get | :05:11. | :05:17. | |
improved. There are some surprising examples of hard work going on. Late | :05:18. | :05:21. | |
at night, some of these people you are so rude about their drafting new | :05:22. | :05:26. | |
clauses and things like that. Having time to debate a clause. Yesterday, | :05:27. | :05:33. | |
we voted one thing down and two things down. There are changes made | :05:34. | :05:37. | |
in the Lords. We know that, it's just difficult to work out what your | :05:38. | :05:40. | |
democratic legitimacy as for doing so. That is a fair point. Time for | :05:41. | :05:46. | |
the daily quiz. Today's question is, what is Prince Charles's latest | :05:47. | :05:51. | |
hobbyhorse? Is it Paul pointy buildings, wind farms, pension funds | :05:52. | :05:57. | |
or the price of biscuits? Towards the end of the show we will give you | :05:58. | :06:04. | |
the correct answer. The government's Social Mobility and | :06:05. | :06:05. | |
Child Poverty Commission, chaired by former Labour minister Alan Milburn, | :06:06. | :06:09. | |
has published its first annual report to Parliament. It commends | :06:10. | :06:13. | |
some have meant initiatives on apprenticeships and education, it | :06:14. | :06:16. | |
says there has been a lack of progress on improving social | :06:17. | :06:19. | |
mobility. More needs to be done to help children from modest | :06:20. | :06:21. | |
backgrounds to move up the social scale. The goal of eradicating child | :06:22. | :06:27. | |
poverty by 2020 will likely be missed. According to the OECD, | :06:28. | :06:31. | |
Britain ranks amongst the worst countries in the developed world in | :06:32. | :06:36. | |
terms of social mobility. Last year, Nick Clegg described the situation | :06:37. | :06:40. | |
as an absolute scandal. The commission warns that many children | :06:41. | :06:43. | |
are people on low and middle incomes are likely to be the first for more | :06:44. | :06:46. | |
than a century that will grow up worse off than their parents. The | :06:47. | :06:51. | |
report makes a series of recommendations. The minimum wage | :06:52. | :06:56. | |
should go up. It is now worth ?1000 per year less in real terms than in | :06:57. | :07:01. | |
2008. Workers have seen the real value of wages decline. Government | :07:02. | :07:05. | |
money to help with childcare costs should be redirected from higher | :07:06. | :07:08. | |
income families to people on low pay. Unpaid internships as a way | :07:09. | :07:14. | |
into professional careers should be ended. And the burden of tackling | :07:15. | :07:18. | |
Britain's deficit needs to be shared more fairly. So far, pensioners have | :07:19. | :07:23. | |
seen their benefits, like winter fuel allowance, protected, while | :07:24. | :07:25. | |
younger people have had benefits cut. Clegg says he welcomes much of | :07:26. | :07:30. | |
the report. On the last point he strikes a note of caution. Writing | :07:31. | :07:35. | |
in the Daily Telegraph he says, punishing pensioners is not going to | :07:36. | :07:38. | |
help a single child achieve more in life. Alan Milburn, the author of | :07:39. | :07:45. | |
the report is with us. Welcome back to the Daily Politics. Has this | :07:46. | :07:52. | |
permission achieved anything? Time will tell. Our job is to report on | :07:53. | :07:57. | |
what is going on. Nick Clegg said when he set up the commission that | :07:58. | :08:00. | |
he wanted us to hold the government's feet to the fire. I | :08:01. | :08:04. | |
hope we have done that. It is now a scatter-gun approach. It is all | :08:05. | :08:10. | |
sorts of things that people will find very tenuous in the link with | :08:11. | :08:15. | |
social mobility. For example, the minimum wage. When the minimum wage | :08:16. | :08:22. | |
was worth ?1000 more in real terms, in 2008, social mobility was not any | :08:23. | :08:27. | |
better. It depends on your diagnosis of the problem. We say that child | :08:28. | :08:30. | |
poverty, which has been falling for a decade, is now rising. Everybody | :08:31. | :08:35. | |
knows that the 2020 target is not going to be met. The really worrying | :08:36. | :08:38. | |
thing is that there is no evidence we can see in the recovery, and | :08:39. | :08:42. | |
thank God it is happening, we can see no evidence of the decade-long | :08:43. | :08:49. | |
trend when the top part has prospered and the bottom part has | :08:50. | :08:54. | |
stagnated, that that is going to come to an end. That will have an | :08:55. | :08:57. | |
impact on social mobility. The question is, what is the Government, | :08:58. | :09:03. | |
employers and society willing to do about that? We cannot will the ends, | :09:04. | :09:09. | |
but not will the means. So many things you are proposing seem pretty | :09:10. | :09:12. | |
tenuous. It would take a long while to make any affect. And now you are | :09:13. | :09:17. | |
picking on old people? We are all moving in that direction. You can | :09:18. | :09:21. | |
say that again. We are all moving in that direction. Did you just say | :09:22. | :09:30. | |
that again? You can say that again. Nick Clegg already says it is | :09:31. | :09:37. | |
punishing old folk and that will not help social mobility? He is right, | :09:38. | :09:41. | |
nobody wants to punish pensioners. The right question to ask is a | :09:42. | :09:46. | |
straightforward one. When youth unemployment, particularly | :09:47. | :09:48. | |
long-term, is still high, when family incomes are falling, when | :09:49. | :09:50. | |
people on the lowest incomes are being squeezed and the poorest | :09:51. | :09:54. | |
people are having benefits capped, is it right that wealthy pensioners | :09:55. | :09:58. | |
are not only having benefits protect it but also enhanced? Absolutely, I | :09:59. | :10:03. | |
understand that perfectly. I just wonder what it is going to do with | :10:04. | :10:07. | |
social mobility. It seems strange to me that very wealthy pensioners get | :10:08. | :10:11. | |
a winter fuel allowance... The Queen is entitled. The Queen is entitled, | :10:12. | :10:16. | |
all sorts of people are entitled to it, and yet benefits are being cut | :10:17. | :10:20. | |
elsewhere. For the life of me, I don't see how it helps social | :10:21. | :10:24. | |
mobility? For this reason, if we can free those resources up, and we | :10:25. | :10:30. | |
estimate, the IFS fiscal studies Institute estimate, if we give | :10:31. | :10:38. | |
entitlements to the poorest pensioners and take it away from the | :10:39. | :10:40. | |
wealthiest, it would save one point ?4 billion. Where would I invest | :10:41. | :10:45. | |
that? And education maintenance allowance to make sure that poor | :10:46. | :10:48. | |
kids stay on at school. Good for social mobility. That is better for | :10:49. | :10:57. | |
social mobility, parents and carers get more of a chance to get on in | :10:58. | :11:01. | |
life. More to help parents get out to work, good for social mobility. | :11:02. | :11:05. | |
There are always choices in government to be made, however | :11:06. | :11:09. | |
difficult the circumstances. You take ?1.4 billion from people that | :11:10. | :11:12. | |
do not deserve it, you spend is the way you have done, the problem is, | :11:13. | :11:15. | |
your last government shows it does not work. You've doubled per capita | :11:16. | :11:21. | |
spending on schools, school pupils in the last Labour Government. The | :11:22. | :11:24. | |
latest OECD report shows us tumbling down the tables, almost last in the | :11:25. | :11:32. | |
major economies. It's not money that is the problem. It is interesting | :11:33. | :11:35. | |
there is no mention of schools or education. There is a whole chapter | :11:36. | :11:42. | |
on schools. If we had decent schools that taught kids to read and write, | :11:43. | :11:46. | |
created a culture that the world was their oyster, that nothing could | :11:47. | :11:50. | |
hold them back, and we had great teachers that inspired that, job | :11:51. | :11:55. | |
done on social mobility? You should be on my commission and you should | :11:56. | :11:58. | |
read that chapter on that report. For example, if we had have this | :11:59. | :12:03. | |
conversation 20 years ago, where would we have said the problem is? | :12:04. | :12:07. | |
We would have said it was in London and the inner cities. The state | :12:08. | :12:10. | |
schools were so terrible. Today, the best state schools in the country | :12:11. | :12:17. | |
are in London. Today, the worst schools are probably in the North of | :12:18. | :12:22. | |
England. That didn't happen by accident, it was by design. A | :12:23. | :12:26. | |
massive effort to recruit the best teachers into the worst schools. | :12:27. | :12:29. | |
That paid dividends. Michael Gove should take heed. Do you get | :12:30. | :12:35. | |
frustrated by the lack of progress? It is frustrating for me, in a | :12:36. | :12:39. | |
sense. But it is bloody frustrating for people that want to get on in | :12:40. | :12:43. | |
life. It is very frustrating, you know the people that I feel most | :12:44. | :12:48. | |
sorry for, the people that used to come to my surgeries when I was a | :12:49. | :12:51. | |
member of Parliament, the people that were the strivers. They were | :12:52. | :12:55. | |
going to work, standing on their own feet, doing the right thing. There | :12:56. | :12:58. | |
are 5 million of them in this country. They earn less than the | :12:59. | :13:01. | |
living wage. Most of them are women. They listen to what | :13:02. | :13:04. | |
politicians are saying and those other people that need a new deal | :13:05. | :13:08. | |
that is why I think the national minimum wage needs to rise and go | :13:09. | :13:10. | |
back to the level, at least, that was in 2008. Do you think social | :13:11. | :13:17. | |
mobility has got worse? Yes, I do. I think it is clear that the leaders | :13:18. | :13:20. | |
of society that came through the grammar school system have given way | :13:21. | :13:24. | |
to people like me, who... Well, I am not a leader of society, but people | :13:25. | :13:30. | |
who have had a privileged education. It was not so easy for people over | :13:31. | :13:34. | |
the last 20 or 30 years to go from the bottom to the top, through the | :13:35. | :13:41. | |
education system. On this point of wages being supported by benefits at | :13:42. | :13:48. | |
the lower end, which is an interesting and key point, surely do | :13:49. | :13:51. | |
think there is that we have got to get unemployment down. Then you | :13:52. | :13:54. | |
start getting competition amongst employers to drive up wages. That is | :13:55. | :13:59. | |
beginning to happen. We saw 1 million new jobs since the election. | :14:00. | :14:04. | |
But I do not think it is either-or. If you have 2.5 million people | :14:05. | :14:08. | |
unemployed, you have long-term unemployment amongst young people at | :14:09. | :14:13. | |
a 20 year high, of course more has to be done to create jobs and get | :14:14. | :14:17. | |
people into jobs. The old idea that a job was the cue for poverty is, | :14:18. | :14:23. | |
I'm afraid, unproven. -- Q. It is disproven by the fact that two in | :14:24. | :14:29. | |
three kids, that the government says are officially poor, and not in a | :14:30. | :14:33. | |
workless family, not in a work-shy family, in a working family. Those | :14:34. | :14:37. | |
people are doing the right thing. They are going out to work. The | :14:38. | :14:41. | |
problem is that they don't earn enough to escape poverty. But if we | :14:42. | :14:49. | |
could free up the housing market and the energy market, we will probably | :14:50. | :14:52. | |
come to that later, you can see, actually, the diminution of the | :14:53. | :14:59. | |
outgoings. It is both, there are two sides to the equation. One is in | :15:00. | :15:03. | |
earnings and the other is prices. In the end, I personally think that | :15:04. | :15:07. | |
governments have precious little locus when it comes to cost of | :15:08. | :15:11. | |
living. I think they should introduce more competition, not | :15:12. | :15:14. | |
less. That is the way to solve many of the problems. It feels, if you | :15:15. | :15:20. | |
are on the receiving end of a 10% hike in electricity bills, or 8% in | :15:21. | :15:24. | |
gas bills, that feels like a long way away. One thing that would help | :15:25. | :15:31. | |
if we had really good technical skills and they have a status, the | :15:32. | :15:38. | |
way they have in Germany or Sweden. That would create a path way for the | :15:39. | :15:43. | |
none academic and they would start their own businesses and the rest of | :15:44. | :15:48. | |
it. So a bit of encouraging, do you think to see Ben Baker's | :15:49. | :15:53. | |
announcement his move in that direction? : Yes I like what Ken | :15:54. | :16:04. | |
announced and the UTCs he anouzed -- he anewsed -- announced. We | :16:05. | :16:12. | |
criticised politicians for 30 years focussing on kids going into higher | :16:13. | :16:16. | |
education, but not the other 50% who are going into vocational education, | :16:17. | :16:23. | |
more apprenticeships a good thing, but one and a half learners are in | :16:24. | :16:28. | |
further education colleges which are deemed unsatisfactory. That is one | :16:29. | :16:33. | |
and a half million people too many. One proposal we make is the colleges | :16:34. | :16:38. | |
should be paid not according to the numbers they recruit, but in terms | :16:39. | :16:45. | |
of the outcomes they achieve. Internships have become | :16:46. | :16:50. | |
controversial, because the top jobs, the ones kids want to get into are | :16:51. | :16:58. | |
largely in London. Yes. And they're unpaid and if you're a kid coming | :16:59. | :17:03. | |
out a college from Middlesbrough or Glasgow, you can't come to London if | :17:04. | :17:07. | |
there is no money. So they go to kids who are already here and those | :17:08. | :17:11. | |
who have parents that can subsidise them. You want to get rid of them. | :17:12. | :17:16. | |
Is it your idea that the Government should, you could stop the public | :17:17. | :17:20. | |
sector doing that and it would be helpful if some political parties | :17:21. | :17:26. | |
stopped doing it. Indeed. We see them on the web-sites, do you want | :17:27. | :17:30. | |
the Government to actually legislate to ban private companies from doibg | :17:31. | :17:35. | |
it? -- doing? No, I don't think that is the way to do it. The thing that | :17:36. | :17:42. | |
has changed is if you want to go into professional employment there | :17:43. | :17:46. | |
is a new rung on the ladder called internship and if you want to become | :17:47. | :17:50. | |
a doctor, you have got to get work experience. If you want to be a | :17:51. | :17:54. | |
lawyer, you have got to get work expeernts, the -- experience, the | :17:55. | :17:58. | |
question is who gets the work experience and sadly it goes to | :17:59. | :18:02. | |
people on the basis of who you know and not what you know. That has got | :18:03. | :18:08. | |
to change. I think whether or not these things are paid makes a | :18:09. | :18:11. | |
difference. It is a sort of arms race. When I was at university, none | :18:12. | :18:19. | |
of my friend got internships. Now if you don have something lined up, | :18:20. | :18:24. | |
everyone thinks your child will be a failure and the parents get more | :18:25. | :18:28. | |
competitive. It is a big change in the labour market. All I would ask | :18:29. | :18:34. | |
is if it is a new rung opt ladder, employers wouldn't think for | :18:35. | :18:37. | |
appointing any other member of the staff to not advertise a job or not | :18:38. | :18:43. | |
to pay a job. All I ask is for a level playing field. Do the same for | :18:44. | :18:47. | |
sberpships, because they're the route into work as for other members | :18:48. | :18:52. | |
of staff. The Tories didn't do themselves any faves when their | :18:53. | :19:01. | |
donors could bid for interns. Yes, I suspect that isn't a problem that is | :19:02. | :19:06. | |
limited to one partin't Where -- to one party. Where next? Onwards and | :19:07. | :19:12. | |
upwards. But we are going backwards and down wards on this it is getting | :19:13. | :19:22. | |
tougherer for a -- tougher for a bright kid to get into a job. When I | :19:23. | :19:28. | |
came to this city in the dark ages, I was against the old school tie, | :19:29. | :19:34. | |
which was more prevalent than the internships, pause it was -- because | :19:35. | :19:40. | |
it was rv I where. But if you had good education and that gave you | :19:41. | :19:44. | |
confidence and ambition, I mean we took the old tie on and won. Look, | :19:45. | :19:49. | |
if you ask me, I get asked, if you could do one thing what would it be, | :19:50. | :19:56. | |
the key to unlock this, the answer I think is education and | :19:57. | :19:59. | |
employability. It has got to be. So it is great that school standards | :20:00. | :20:05. | |
have improved and that the education attainment gap between poor kids and | :20:06. | :20:10. | |
wealthier kids has narrowed. But boy, oh boy, there is a long way to | :20:11. | :20:14. | |
go. Things like free schools can make a difference and most | :20:15. | :20:19. | |
importantly of all paying good teachers the best to go and teach in | :20:20. | :20:25. | |
the worst schools I believe could transform this. Finland has done | :20:26. | :20:31. | |
some of that too and they expect high standards from the teachers. | :20:32. | :20:36. | |
Thank you Alan Milburn. Always good to talk to you on this subject. Now | :20:37. | :20:41. | |
Ed Milliband announced a new policy today. He is full of policies today, | :20:42. | :20:47. | |
he wants to impose a new levy on pay day lender, the wonga type ones, who | :20:48. | :20:52. | |
are always on TV and use the money, he wants to use the money to double | :20:53. | :20:59. | |
the money for credit unions. He has appointed a new leader of the | :21:00. | :21:04. | |
campaign against what are known as legal loan sharks, something you | :21:05. | :21:10. | |
think she should have done before. She joins us now. Sarah Creasey | :21:11. | :21:16. | |
welcome to the show. Explain what you want the policies should be to | :21:17. | :21:22. | |
these pay day loan merchants? First we are committed now to a total cost | :21:23. | :21:27. | |
cap and capping what these companies can charge, because the problem is | :21:28. | :21:32. | |
this credit is too expensive and a lot of people who borrow in this way | :21:33. | :21:37. | |
end up in debt and having to borrow more. We think pause these -- | :21:38. | :21:42. | |
because these companies are causing so much damage that it is right they | :21:43. | :21:47. | |
take responsibility and pay back for credit unions and debt advice and | :21:48. | :21:51. | |
things that can help people get out of the trap. So it is pay back time. | :21:52. | :21:57. | |
It seems there are two parts. First, you say you will cap the amount of | :21:58. | :22:02. | |
interest they can charge is that right? No, not the interest, the | :22:03. | :22:06. | |
total cost of the spire loan. In this industry, 50% of the profits | :22:07. | :22:11. | |
come from default charges. If you just cap the interest rate or | :22:12. | :22:14. | |
charges, they make up the money elsewhere. Taking the entire cost of | :22:15. | :22:19. | |
the loan, a gap and setting a ceiling and preventing the problems. | :22:20. | :22:25. | |
It is what a lot of other countries are doing. So if I borrow ?100, | :22:26. | :22:33. | |
because we are usually talking smallish amounts, what would be the | :22:34. | :22:39. | |
cap and I'm in a bit of default, I see these interest rates are rising, | :22:40. | :22:43. | |
what will the cap be? Well, we need a cap that works with the UK market | :22:44. | :22:49. | |
and we wanted the Financial Conduct Authority to have the cap. I don't | :22:50. | :22:53. | |
think politicians can set a specific cap. We need the regulator to work | :22:54. | :22:57. | |
with the industry to set that cap. The problem is now they're not using | :22:58. | :23:00. | |
that power and not gathering the evidence to use that power and the | :23:01. | :23:05. | |
Government says, we are not sure about capping. The millions | :23:06. | :23:09. | |
borrowing in this way can't weight for this to happen. Can you have a | :23:10. | :23:15. | |
cap or can't you? You can have a cap in law. We fought hard to give them | :23:16. | :23:20. | |
the power. But they're not using it. What whoub the cap? -- What would be | :23:21. | :23:28. | |
the cap. In other caps tefest they have had -- they have had caps for | :23:29. | :23:39. | |
say ?15 per ?100. It leads to lower levels of debts and is the one thing | :23:40. | :23:44. | |
that can change the behaviour of the companies and the fact that | :23:45. | :23:48. | |
Government talks about it not being a good idea is a problem. Because | :23:49. | :23:53. | |
millions are stuck in this trap. You, what you're talking about, the | :23:54. | :23:57. | |
second part of the policy, is this to be a levy on the pay day lenders? | :23:58. | :24:02. | |
Yes, lots of industries where their products cause problems set up | :24:03. | :24:08. | |
voluntary organisations, like the gambling and the drinks industry. | :24:09. | :24:12. | |
This industry have been saying they're responsible, but they have | :24:13. | :24:15. | |
done nothing to help people in trouble. So we think they should pay | :24:16. | :24:22. | |
to help. What would the levy be on? All these companies will have to pay | :24:23. | :24:26. | |
to register with the new authority from April. We are talking about an | :24:27. | :24:33. | |
additional amount and do remember some of the companies are making a | :24:34. | :24:36. | |
million pounds a week. It is important that cap works with how | :24:37. | :24:42. | |
those companies are operating. You're the politicians, you can't | :24:43. | :24:45. | |
say it is up to the regulator. You have got to tell us, will this levy | :24:46. | :24:51. | |
be on the prochts of the company -- profits of the companies, their turn | :24:52. | :24:56. | |
over, their balance sheepts, what size -- sheets what size will it be. | :24:57. | :25:01. | |
That is the reason experts should set a lvy. There are different ways | :25:02. | :25:08. | |
to do it. We think even a levy just on profits would raise ?30 million a | :25:09. | :25:14. | |
year to go into the growth fund to grow credit unions ability to work | :25:15. | :25:17. | |
with, like the one I saw with Ed Milliband in Peckham that is lending | :25:18. | :25:25. | |
?10 to ?15 million. What rate do they charge? They capped and the | :25:26. | :25:31. | |
maximum they can charge is 26% interest rate. 26? Isn't that loan | :25:32. | :25:37. | |
shark territory? Against interest rate of 6 thousand %. -- 6,000%. | :25:38. | :25:45. | |
That is almost as bad as the credit card companies. Good you mentioned | :25:46. | :25:50. | |
that, because the Government did a U-turn on credit cards and consumers | :25:51. | :25:55. | |
are being scammed. Our market does not work. There are things we need | :25:56. | :25:59. | |
to do. All right it seems there is a lot to do. Thank you for coming on | :26:00. | :26:16. | |
the show today. So it's not a good day if you're a customer of British | :26:17. | :26:19. | |
Gas. They've just announced an increase in electricity prices of | :26:20. | :26:22. | |
over 10% and of gas prices of over 8%. The Energy Secretary Ed Davey | :26:23. | :26:27. | |
urged customers to switch companies and had this to say in the Commons. | :26:28. | :26:37. | |
It is disappointing news for British Gas customers. British Gas will need | :26:38. | :26:44. | |
to justify their decision openly and transparently to bill-by aers. | :26:45. | :26:48. | |
British Gas was the only company not to meet its targets under the | :26:49. | :26:52. | |
previous obligation to make its customers' homes more energy | :26:53. | :26:56. | |
efficient. That left more homes cold. So British Gas has fallen in | :26:57. | :27:03. | |
failing to meet its targets. I hope the honourable lady with that can | :27:04. | :27:09. | |
join with me in making sure that British Gas does, is more | :27:10. | :27:14. | |
transparent about its costs. We are pushing competition and I would urge | :27:15. | :27:18. | |
skus hers of -- customers of British Gas to change their supplier. That | :27:19. | :27:27. | |
was a rather angry energy Secretary. He found out as he was taking | :27:28. | :27:35. | |
questions in the House of Commons. And we're joined now by the Shadow | :27:36. | :27:39. | |
Energy Secretary, Caroline Flint. And also Greg Barker. There is the | :27:40. | :27:42. | |
ball on the table, there is an open goal over there, would you like to | :27:43. | :27:45. | |
kick the ball? Today again we are seeing the public are paying the | :27:46. | :27:49. | |
price, because the Government haven't stootd up to these | :27:50. | :27:54. | |
companies. They hike their prices at the expense of the consumer and the | :27:55. | :27:57. | |
Government should do something. We have set out our package, that is to | :27:58. | :28:04. | |
freeze the prices from the day of the general election to January 2017 | :28:05. | :28:10. | |
but as part of a package to reform the market. To give us time to get | :28:11. | :28:17. | |
legislation through to reform the market. We are getting eye watering | :28:18. | :28:24. | |
rises. We saw the latest average wage figures and it is under 1%. If | :28:25. | :28:28. | |
you're in the public sector, your pay is falling. But your prices for | :28:29. | :28:34. | |
British Gas are going up 10%. With Eno what Labour would do -- we know | :28:35. | :28:40. | |
what Labour would do, you can disagree, but you're not doing | :28:41. | :28:45. | |
anything are you? On the contrary we are doing a great deal but we are | :28:46. | :28:51. | |
not trying to con people. We Eno hard working people are -- we know | :28:52. | :29:00. | |
hard working people are there and they need more competition and make | :29:01. | :29:04. | |
it easier for people to switch and to bring in new entrants to the | :29:05. | :29:09. | |
market and challenge the big six created under the last Labour | :29:10. | :29:15. | |
Government and rather than increase regulation and bind them in tighter | :29:16. | :29:19. | |
and create greater barriers to entry for new independent companies we | :29:20. | :29:22. | |
need to break down the barriers and bring in the consumer champions, not | :29:23. | :29:28. | |
scare off investment, but all the independent companies the ones we | :29:29. | :29:38. | |
want to deliver the choice. The problem is that we have got to a | :29:39. | :29:43. | |
situation today were these companies dominate 98% of the market. They | :29:44. | :29:47. | |
dominate energy and sell it to themselves before they sell it to | :29:48. | :29:50. | |
us. Other people cannot get a slice of the pie to put downward pressure | :29:51. | :29:54. | |
on prices. That is why we want a power exchange, where all energy put | :29:55. | :29:58. | |
into the exchange, including from independent generators, the big six | :29:59. | :30:01. | |
and other people that want to retail energy can come in and competitively | :30:02. | :30:08. | |
bid to buy energies. That is what we used to do, though? Pretty much? | :30:09. | :30:16. | |
No, the problem was that we only had two generators, they held all of the | :30:17. | :30:20. | |
cards and there was criticism of gaming that system. We are looking | :30:21. | :30:24. | |
at the system the Scandinavian countries use, where we can have | :30:25. | :30:28. | |
two-way bids from generators and retailers. I think we are all agreed | :30:29. | :30:34. | |
we want much more competition and we want to burst the market open. But | :30:35. | :30:38. | |
we don't agree that Labour's return to the 1970s... It's not! Is the way | :30:39. | :30:45. | |
to go. We want to work with independents to open up the energy | :30:46. | :30:48. | |
market. We are bringing through the House of Commons at the market, in | :30:49. | :30:52. | |
fact up House of Lords, we are driving reforms with the biggest | :30:53. | :30:56. | |
package of measures we have seen, probably for ten or 15 years, | :30:57. | :31:00. | |
possibly since privatisation. But it is not enough. There is a wider | :31:01. | :31:03. | |
debate about reforms that are necessary. We need to make sure | :31:04. | :31:06. | |
there is a firewall between these companies generating arms and their | :31:07. | :31:12. | |
retailing arms. We said we would look at the president of this in | :31:13. | :31:17. | |
separating energy companies. At the heart of all of this, is also having | :31:18. | :31:23. | |
a system or a delay should, a better system of regulation, not just | :31:24. | :31:26. | |
layering over, that can get to the heart of what the true price of | :31:27. | :31:30. | |
energy is. We know wholesale costs are less than they were in 2008. We | :31:31. | :31:36. | |
had a drop in 2009 of 45% and that has not been reflected in bills. | :31:37. | :31:41. | |
Ofgem, who I criticise a lot, have done reports saying it is rockets | :31:42. | :31:46. | |
and feathers, the reductions are not being passed on. People watching | :31:47. | :31:53. | |
this are worked up about it. The bottom line is that you are going to | :31:54. | :31:58. | |
do nothing about this 10% rise? The people watching this today, | :31:59. | :32:01. | |
customers of British Gas, they are paying 10%. This is Great Britain, | :32:02. | :32:06. | |
not East Germany. As much as Caroline wants to drag us back to | :32:07. | :32:11. | |
the 1970s, the answer to this, it is going to deliver... Energy prices | :32:12. | :32:15. | |
were quite cheap in East Germany. But how did that end? It's not a | :32:16. | :32:19. | |
happy story. That is clearly where you are taking us. We want genuine, | :32:20. | :32:24. | |
dynamic competition, break down the market walls. You can talk about | :32:25. | :32:29. | |
that, but you are both guilty of driving up energy prices. Caroline | :32:30. | :32:35. | |
has a fair point on transparency. Clearly, successive governments have | :32:36. | :32:38. | |
not done enough, post-privatisation, to open up the market, particularly | :32:39. | :32:43. | |
the way it consolidated under Labour. We will be coming forwards | :32:44. | :32:48. | |
with new measures to open transparency so we can get to the | :32:49. | :32:51. | |
bottom of this question... That does not heat the bedroom this winter for | :32:52. | :32:57. | |
the people facing price rises. You are both in favour, you keep on | :32:58. | :33:01. | |
agreeing to things that will drive up the price rises. ?100 billion in | :33:02. | :33:06. | |
offshore wind, where the price of electricity will be three times the | :33:07. | :33:10. | |
market rate. That is going on to bills. We are going to pay ?155 per | :33:11. | :33:16. | |
megawatt. How much do you think onshore wind... It's twice the | :33:17. | :33:23. | |
price. Onshore contributes ?9 to that. That is onshore, offshore, now | :33:24. | :33:31. | |
you are about to agree with a nationalised French company to agree | :33:32. | :33:34. | |
they will get twice the market rate of electricity price for 30 years. | :33:35. | :33:40. | |
We need nuclear, we need investment. It goes on to our bill, correct? Of | :33:41. | :33:46. | |
course, there is nobody else paying. We need nuclear, we need a | :33:47. | :33:50. | |
diverse energy policy. We are going to hear more details about it. I do | :33:51. | :33:55. | |
back nuclear power, I think it is important. The price, the market | :33:56. | :34:01. | |
price, putting it onto the people watching this show? They will find | :34:02. | :34:04. | |
out the details about that next week. The cost of the bill for | :34:05. | :34:07. | |
developing renewables, it is about ?50 of the overall bill. We have | :34:08. | :34:13. | |
seen price rises of ?300, ?400, ?120 from what British gas is saying | :34:14. | :34:19. | |
today. In no way can they use that part of the bill to explain some of | :34:20. | :34:23. | |
these price rises. We have to get to the heart of the issue. What is the | :34:24. | :34:26. | |
true cost of energy? We can't do that in the market, the way it is | :34:27. | :34:30. | |
set up at the moment. That is why our reforms are so important. I | :34:31. | :34:36. | |
think we haven't seen anything yet. If this is the row we are having | :34:37. | :34:42. | |
now, there is not a huge input of wind into the price, once you get | :34:43. | :34:47. | |
the offshore wind rolling out, three times the wholesale price, once you | :34:48. | :34:51. | |
get nuclear coming in, all of these renewables that are being given | :34:52. | :34:58. | |
these huge rewards, then... The cost is going up and up. The cost of | :34:59. | :35:08. | |
solar has fallen by 70%. Offshore wind is down from ?135. You can have | :35:09. | :35:17. | |
your own opinions, but not your own facts. I just stated a fact. There | :35:18. | :35:22. | |
is also the cost of staying where we are. If we stay hostage to fossil | :35:23. | :35:27. | |
fuels, we will pay the price, not only in higher bills, but the loss | :35:28. | :35:30. | |
of the jobs we can create with these new energies. It's not just me | :35:31. | :35:35. | |
saying that, the climate change committee and former Conservative MP | :35:36. | :35:40. | |
Sir John Gover. The world has changed since 2008, we have | :35:41. | :35:44. | |
discovered shale gas all around the world. We know it is not going to | :35:45. | :35:49. | |
run out anywhere soon as we thought. Fukushima, Olivia... We can't say | :35:50. | :35:58. | |
that until we can find out if we can get it out of the ground in a way | :35:59. | :36:02. | |
that is economic. Gas prices in the United States are one third of what | :36:03. | :36:05. | |
they are here, because they have access to cheap gas. The idea behind | :36:06. | :36:14. | |
renewables... Until 2003, we did not have a prevailing price for gas in | :36:15. | :36:19. | |
the UK that was different to elsewhere in Europe. We want | :36:20. | :36:22. | |
fracking, we are going to bring it in an environmentally entryway. But | :36:23. | :36:29. | |
it is not a magic bullet. Would you agree, surely, that the whole idea | :36:30. | :36:32. | |
behind renewables was that they were eventually going to look cheap | :36:33. | :36:36. | |
compared to fossil fuels, because they will go up in price. They will. | :36:37. | :36:41. | |
It is not going to turn out that way. You have a certain view, which | :36:42. | :36:45. | |
is to deny climate change, so we know where you are coming from. You | :36:46. | :36:51. | |
deny how important it is and how we have to take action to tackle it. | :36:52. | :36:57. | |
Better not get on to climate change or people will have heart attacks. | :36:58. | :37:01. | |
Thank you very much. The SNP leader Alex Sam and opens up the party | :37:02. | :37:04. | |
conference in the beautiful city of Perth this afternoon. He insists | :37:05. | :37:08. | |
that the referendum on independence can be won, despite polls suggesting | :37:09. | :37:12. | |
that the no campaign is still well ahead. He thinks the key to victory | :37:13. | :37:15. | |
is convincing voters that independence will bring economic | :37:16. | :37:20. | |
prosperity. We are joined by the Deputy First Minister Nicola | :37:21. | :37:23. | |
Sturgeon. We hear that the theme of the conference is going to be a big | :37:24. | :37:29. | |
love in, and then next year it will be a big wake when you have lost the | :37:30. | :37:33. | |
referendum? If we play our cards right and do our jobs properly, next | :37:34. | :37:37. | |
year's conference will be a celebration of a yes vote and | :37:38. | :37:42. | |
Scotland voting for independence. But that's getting ahead of | :37:43. | :37:45. | |
ourselves, we have work to do to convince people that we can afford | :37:46. | :37:51. | |
to be an independent country, we are one of the wealthiest countries in | :37:52. | :37:55. | |
the world, even the no campaign does not question that now, but secondly | :37:56. | :37:58. | |
that we should be independent because it means decisions being | :37:59. | :38:02. | |
made here, not in Westminster by governments we often reject. When I | :38:03. | :38:07. | |
last spoke to you, it was a year to the referendum, you were excited, | :38:08. | :38:10. | |
the referendum would build up in your favour. You were the one that | :38:11. | :38:14. | |
was very excited, I seem to remember. I am always excited to | :38:15. | :38:19. | |
talk to you. But you were excited at the prospect that it was only a year | :38:20. | :38:23. | |
to go, things would start to move your way. Actually, support for | :38:24. | :38:27. | |
independence continues to flat line at about 25%. What is going to break | :38:28. | :38:34. | |
that? What we see any opinion polls, and I am not denying that we have a | :38:35. | :38:38. | |
challenge, we have got to convince people. I remember a few months | :38:39. | :38:42. | |
before the SNP won an overall majority in the Scottish parliament | :38:43. | :38:47. | |
the polls said we had no chance, we were 15 points behind Labour. If we | :38:48. | :38:52. | |
pitched the argument properly, the polls can be overturned. The polls | :38:53. | :38:55. | |
say that as people become more informed, when they feel they have | :38:56. | :39:00. | |
the information to base their decision on, they are more likely to | :39:01. | :39:04. | |
fall into the yes camp. Next month, there will be a White Paper on | :39:05. | :39:07. | |
independence and that will be the platform for making and winning the | :39:08. | :39:11. | |
argument that Scotland could be and can be an independent country. But, | :39:12. | :39:15. | |
most importantly, that we should be an independent country because it | :39:16. | :39:18. | |
means no longer having governments we do not vote for taking decisions | :39:19. | :39:21. | |
we don't agree with. We have governments we vote for and they can | :39:22. | :39:24. | |
take decisions in line with the priorities of people in Scotland. | :39:25. | :39:30. | |
You gave the vote to 16 and 17-year-olds for this referendum, | :39:31. | :39:32. | |
thinking younger people would be more nationalist and more in favour | :39:33. | :39:36. | |
of independence. You surprised that turned out not to be the case? There | :39:37. | :39:41. | |
was a mock referendum with 11,000 schoolchildren in part of the | :39:42. | :39:44. | |
country that is very strongly nationalist and only 2000 voted for | :39:45. | :39:49. | |
independence. Firstly, we extended the franchise to 16 and 17-year-olds | :39:50. | :39:53. | |
because it is the right thing to do. If you can get married, sign up for | :39:54. | :39:57. | |
the Army at 16, I think you should have a boat, not just in a | :39:58. | :40:00. | |
referendum but in general elections as well. -- vote. Young people, like | :40:01. | :40:10. | |
the population at large, they want to have a referendum, they want to | :40:11. | :40:14. | |
be persuaded. We have seen a number of debates, where once people hear | :40:15. | :40:18. | |
the arguments they turn from being no or being undecided, to being yes. | :40:19. | :40:24. | |
That is our challenge and opportunity. The publication of the | :40:25. | :40:27. | |
Government White Paper next month takes us into a new phase in the | :40:28. | :40:31. | |
campaign. We are very much looking forward to that. The referendum is | :40:32. | :40:34. | |
there to be won and I look forward to campaigning hard to make sure we | :40:35. | :40:39. | |
do win it. Is Alex Salmond going to take part in a live debate with the | :40:40. | :40:42. | |
new Scottish Secretary, Alistair Carmichael? I am sure he will debate | :40:43. | :40:48. | |
lots of people. And Alistair Darling? I am sure he will debate | :40:49. | :40:53. | |
with lots of people between now and the referendum. What we have said | :40:54. | :40:56. | |
and what I will say again today is that we think it is right and proper | :40:57. | :41:04. | |
that there is a debate between the first Minister and the Prime | :41:05. | :41:07. | |
Minister. He has a right to intervene into this debate and | :41:08. | :41:11. | |
persuade people to vote no. But if he is going to do that, he has to be | :41:12. | :41:14. | |
prepared to have a head-to-head debate with the first Minister. I | :41:15. | :41:17. | |
look forward to him changing his mind on that. I wouldn't hold your | :41:18. | :41:22. | |
breath. Are you going to get a major debate between Alistair Darling and | :41:23. | :41:26. | |
Alex Salmond on television. Will that happen? Well, I have already | :41:27. | :41:31. | |
debated with Alistair Darling. I know that, we have seen it. Alex | :41:32. | :41:35. | |
Salmond will debate with lots of people... Will he debate with | :41:36. | :41:39. | |
Alistair Darling on television? I am sure he will debate with all sorts | :41:40. | :41:42. | |
of people. The first and foremost point here is that there should be | :41:43. | :41:46. | |
the debate between the first Minister and the Prime Minister. | :41:47. | :41:49. | |
What is the Prime Minister running scared of? What is Alex Salmond | :41:50. | :41:54. | |
running scared of when you cannot say he will debate Alistair Darling? | :41:55. | :41:58. | |
Alex Salmond wants to debate the Prime Minister. He wants to debate | :41:59. | :42:02. | |
the Prime Minister. I think that is right and proper. This is a debate | :42:03. | :42:06. | |
about a transfer of powers from Westminster to the Scottish | :42:07. | :42:09. | |
Parliament. Surely it is right and proper that the leader of the | :42:10. | :42:13. | |
Scottish Government... You have made that point. I am trying to get you | :42:14. | :42:21. | |
to a address, that his Ford David Cameron to decide, I have no | :42:22. | :42:24. | |
influence on that, there is no point repeating it. I am asking you, why | :42:25. | :42:29. | |
can you not it Alex Salmon to debate with Alistair Carmichael, Alistair | :42:30. | :42:35. | |
Darling or both? Does he just not like people called Alistair? I am | :42:36. | :42:39. | |
sure that between now and the referendum Alex Salmond will debate | :42:40. | :42:41. | |
with both of those people and many others, making the positive case for | :42:42. | :42:48. | |
independence. There is no issue or question about that. The question is | :42:49. | :42:52. | |
why David Cameron will not agreed to debate... Well, we have done that. I | :42:53. | :42:57. | |
think we are going round in circles. We enjoy debating with people called | :42:58. | :43:01. | |
Nicola. Thank you. Last night, Congress agreed to a deal which will | :43:02. | :43:06. | |
see the debt ceiling rise, preventing it from going into a | :43:07. | :43:10. | |
forced to default on debts, with the consequences that would entail, not | :43:11. | :43:14. | |
just for America but the rest of the world. It also means parts of the | :43:15. | :43:21. | |
government which have been shut down and get going again. Maybe some did | :43:22. | :43:24. | |
not notice they have been shut down. That is another story. Here is | :43:25. | :43:28. | |
what Barack Obama had to save the other night. Once this agreement | :43:29. | :43:32. | |
arrives on my desk, I will sign it immediately. We will begin reopening | :43:33. | :43:36. | |
our government immediately. You can begin to lift this cloud of | :43:37. | :43:40. | |
uncertainty and unease from our businesses and from the American | :43:41. | :43:44. | |
people. Because there is a lot of work ahead of us. Including our need | :43:45. | :43:48. | |
to earn back the trust of the American people, that has been lost | :43:49. | :43:51. | |
over the last few weeks. We can begin to do that by addressing the | :43:52. | :43:56. | |
real issues that they care about. I have said it before, I will say it | :43:57. | :44:00. | |
again. I am willing to work with anybody, I am eager to work with | :44:01. | :44:04. | |
anybody, a crack or Republican, house or Senate members, or any idea | :44:05. | :44:09. | |
that will grow our economy, create new jobs, strengthen the middle | :44:10. | :44:14. | |
class and get our fiscal house in order, long-term. Joining us now is | :44:15. | :44:21. | |
Ron Freeman, spokesperson for Democrats Abroad and the Republican | :44:22. | :44:25. | |
commentator Charlie Wolf. Ron Freeman, are we going to go through | :44:26. | :44:30. | |
is in again in the new year? Yes. So it is never ending? The time periods | :44:31. | :44:37. | |
are getting shorter. When Clinton was president, we went six years | :44:38. | :44:41. | |
without an increase, now we are down to three months. Is this a healthy | :44:42. | :44:46. | |
way to run a country? Absolutely not. What do you think Charlie Wolf? | :44:47. | :44:50. | |
Listening to President Obama, he likes to negotiate the same way that | :44:51. | :44:56. | |
Henry Ford liked to offer cars - any colour you like as long as it is | :44:57. | :45:02. | |
black. He has a legacy that will not last unless he learns to play with | :45:03. | :45:08. | |
others. The Republicans control a branch of congress and they have the | :45:09. | :45:12. | |
right to stand up for what they believe in and as long as President | :45:13. | :45:17. | |
Obama has the my way of the highway approach that is not tegt. -- | :45:18. | :45:25. | |
negotiates. Warren Buffet said it is absurd to have this debt ceiling and | :45:26. | :45:31. | |
you can't run a country where you country -- constantly have a debt | :45:32. | :45:35. | |
ceiling. He is right isn't he? It is a stupid way to run a country? No, I | :45:36. | :45:41. | |
want the Executive to have accountability to the people that | :45:42. | :45:46. | |
pull the purse strings, if I was paying your credit card I would want | :45:47. | :45:51. | |
to know there was a limit. OK. History goes the other way. The debt | :45:52. | :45:57. | |
ceiling came into effect in the Spanish/American war in 1898. | :45:58. | :46:04. | |
Because they had to issue sprayed bond issue t. The idea tow give the | :46:05. | :46:09. | |
-- was to give the Treasury discretion as to how to finance the | :46:10. | :46:14. | |
Government. It is only lately using it as a Republican tactic to force | :46:15. | :46:19. | |
through their programme. It is not correct to say it makes the | :46:20. | :46:26. | |
Executive accountable. They have the whip hand, not the president. Now, | :46:27. | :46:31. | |
we have a spending problem that needs to be addressed and Mr Freeman | :46:32. | :46:39. | |
said it has been kicked in the long Gass. We have -- grass. We have | :46:40. | :46:45. | |
massive debt and we have a president spending like there is no tomorrow. | :46:46. | :46:50. | |
He has cut the deficit after he ran it up to a billion. It is still | :46:51. | :46:54. | |
uncontrolled and we have to have some way of watching our books and | :46:55. | :46:59. | |
living within our means. You should have told that to President Bush who | :47:00. | :47:05. | |
tubbed -- doubled the deficit. Are you not worried that there are | :47:06. | :47:11. | |
people in your party that wanted the Government to not pay the debt. And | :47:12. | :47:16. | |
they wants to bring the Government down. Not at all. You're not worried | :47:17. | :47:23. | |
about that. They never said that and the Government was never going to | :47:24. | :47:28. | |
come down. The tax receipts would have paid for is. It is a big | :47:29. | :47:42. | |
Kaboookie, Japanese song and dance. It didn't have to happen. But we | :47:43. | :47:47. | |
have a president who still acts like a community organiser and not a | :47:48. | :47:50. | |
president. If he wants a legacy he will have to work with the | :47:51. | :47:57. | |
Republican house. Where are you on Kabookie? Now, I know what one is. | :47:58. | :48:08. | |
Isn't it the case by going for - Ba ma Care the Republicans were up | :48:09. | :48:12. | |
against an impossible position in terms of winning the argue. | :48:13. | :48:15. | |
President Obama was never going to back down. He won which five -- he | :48:16. | :48:23. | |
won by five million votes in the election. President Obama got | :48:24. | :48:29. | |
elected in 2008 in - you can agree or disagree with the policy, he was | :48:30. | :48:37. | |
elected to implement it and then got re-elected to implement it. Why | :48:38. | :48:41. | |
don't you accept the democratic decision of the American people and | :48:42. | :48:47. | |
its judiciary? Because it is a bad law. But the people voted for it. | :48:48. | :48:58. | |
They also voted for pro-Higgs -- prohibition. But it was implemented. | :48:59. | :49:05. | |
To be fair, there is an ideological battle that we would like to get rid | :49:06. | :49:13. | |
of o' Ba ma Care -- Obamacare. They are saying, why isn't the president | :49:14. | :49:18. | |
and the congress held to the same standard as the rest and why | :49:19. | :49:23. | |
companies get a one year waiver, but individuals don't and some people | :49:24. | :49:27. | |
get subsidies. I think these were fair things to bring up. But the law | :49:28. | :49:33. | |
is now the law and you lost the argument and it seem to be time | :49:34. | :49:40. | |
tomorrow. But Mr Freeman, there are signs that the American economy is | :49:41. | :49:44. | |
recovering. More than signs. Exactly. There are more than signs | :49:45. | :49:48. | |
that the British economy is recovering as well. Indeed. There | :49:49. | :49:52. | |
are signs that the emerging markets are getting their act together after | :49:53. | :49:56. | |
the set back they had as a result of some statements from the Fed. | :49:57. | :50:02. | |
Deficits are coming down. But debt hasn't. I can't think of a worse way | :50:03. | :50:06. | |
of getting the recovery to get momentum than the way the United | :50:07. | :50:10. | |
States is behaving. The United States of course is not a single | :50:11. | :50:17. | |
entity. They have had difficulty holding the faction together. Those | :50:18. | :50:24. | |
who don't like President Obama are a faction. It is a terrible situation, | :50:25. | :50:30. | |
but it can't be fought over whether the Government is open or close. | :50:31. | :50:33. | |
Charlie Wolf we will have you back in February, you will do it again. | :50:34. | :50:44. | |
For the K a, boo -- Kabbookie dance. Why should we dump dollars, you're | :50:45. | :50:51. | |
becoming a joke banana republic. Let's dump dollars and buy Chinese | :50:52. | :50:57. | |
or Swiss francs. I think the United States economy is still the | :50:58. | :51:01. | |
strongest on the planet. Not if you carry on like this. I would rather | :51:02. | :51:05. | |
see that happening that we went through than going through a debt | :51:06. | :51:09. | |
situation that is unsustainable and that is the problem. Or raise the | :51:10. | :51:14. | |
taxes. Well that doesn't help either. We will have to leave it | :51:15. | :51:20. | |
there. Thank you both. When is a secret not a secret? Well, lean in. | :51:21. | :51:26. | |
Listen very carefully. This is a bit hush-hush. Because Whitehall is | :51:27. | :51:29. | |
reviewing how to classify its classified documents. Agent Dilnot | :51:30. | :51:34. | |
has been investigating. Someone once said that the man that can keep a | :51:35. | :51:40. | |
secret is wise. But not half as wise as the man who has no secrets to | :51:41. | :51:43. | |
keep. That is all right for an individual, but for governments it | :51:44. | :51:49. | |
is impossible. They have to keep the secret as best they can, once they | :51:50. | :51:55. | |
have decided what a secret is. And bureaucratically you have to decide | :51:56. | :51:59. | |
you don't someone calmed Edward Snowdon -- calmed Edward Snowdon -- | :52:00. | :52:07. | |
xauled Edward Snowdon working for you. Since the Second World War our | :52:08. | :52:16. | |
Government has used unclassified, secret and top secret and the thing | :52:17. | :52:22. | |
is how much damage they could cause if they got into the wrong hands. | :52:23. | :52:28. | |
The joke in the comedy was anything marked confidential pretty much | :52:29. | :52:33. | |
everyone had seen. But culturally in Whitehall the opposite is true. | :52:34. | :52:37. | |
Civil servants have been overcautious, marking things secret | :52:38. | :52:41. | |
when they didn't need to be. That is high the Cabinet Office for the | :52:42. | :52:47. | |
first time in 68 years is reclassifying documents. They're | :52:48. | :52:51. | |
keeping secret and the ones that would endanger life and limb in the | :52:52. | :52:56. | |
wrong hands. But they're making everything else, 90% of documents | :52:57. | :53:01. | |
classified as official. This is to simplify for the digital age. To | :53:02. | :53:06. | |
speed up the government bureaucracy and make government decision-making | :53:07. | :53:15. | |
that bit quicker. What would Sir Humphrey say? Giles Dilnot there. At | :53:16. | :53:25. | |
least he is saving power with the electricity there. Lord West has | :53:26. | :53:28. | |
been the Royal Navy's First Sea Lord, as well as being the minister | :53:29. | :53:31. | |
for security and counter-terrorism in the Gordon Brown government. So | :53:32. | :53:34. | |
he's in a good position to discuss this with us. What do you make of | :53:35. | :53:38. | |
this change? I think it makes sense. You have gone straight to my heart, | :53:39. | :53:43. | |
some 30 years ago I was court martialed for losing something that | :53:44. | :53:49. | |
was classified. So I pay attention. I think it makes sense and it is | :53:50. | :53:53. | |
clear we have too much that is overclassified where you're working | :53:54. | :53:56. | |
with a lot of things are secret, people think, I had better make this | :53:57. | :54:02. | |
secret just in case and handling these documents on computers or | :54:03. | :54:08. | |
sending them to someone else is complex and expensive. Did you find | :54:09. | :54:12. | |
you only got people's attention when you put highly classify on the | :54:13. | :54:17. | |
document? I have to say that I did discover and it is awful, because I | :54:18. | :54:23. | |
have been a minister, if I want a minister to look at it I would make | :54:24. | :54:28. | |
it code word. We have code word. And then they had to be indoctrinated | :54:29. | :54:32. | |
into it and then you gave it to them, then they really wanted to see | :54:33. | :54:37. | |
it. If you gave them that just confidential, which I know sound | :54:38. | :54:42. | |
awful. I think it is time that this was done. And under the previous | :54:43. | :54:46. | |
system most secret documents couldn't be sent electronically and | :54:47. | :54:52. | |
now they will. Is that OK? Well you're to have, the ones that will | :54:53. | :54:58. | |
still be secret, you have to have a system to allow that to happen. But | :54:59. | :55:05. | |
so much was oversclass if Ied -- overclassified that can all be sent | :55:06. | :55:11. | |
and you can use awful the shelf computers to send it. I think that | :55:12. | :55:16. | |
is right. Where we have to careful is when we get to top secret and not | :55:17. | :55:22. | |
do what the Americans have seen, where 4.2 million people within | :55:23. | :55:27. | |
their structure had access to this data and we must make sure that | :55:28. | :55:31. | |
doesn't happen. How could somebody be -- something be properly secret | :55:32. | :55:36. | |
if millions of people have access to it. Among that there were secret | :55:37. | :55:42. | |
things and I have to say why I think it is appalling that the Guardian | :55:43. | :55:46. | |
said we can decide what should be seen and what shouldn't. That is | :55:47. | :55:50. | |
dangerous and I Edward Snowdon I think he is a traitor and to see him | :55:51. | :55:55. | |
in Russia getting awards and looking like an innocent choir boy, but he | :55:56. | :56:00. | |
is not. That worries me. Everyone knows how open and transparn and | :56:01. | :56:06. | |
democratic - transparent and democratic Russian society is. And | :56:07. | :56:10. | |
they have been good at protecting secrets so we have had to build up | :56:11. | :56:15. | |
agencies in the Cold War to get among them. Do you think we have too | :56:16. | :56:21. | |
many secrets? No, I have never seen a secret document. I haven't been | :56:22. | :56:27. | |
inducted into that level of importance. Clearly I think you're | :56:28. | :56:33. | |
right that if there were too many dock ts -- document and too many | :56:34. | :56:38. | |
people seeing them, the point is lost. So you have to simplify it. | :56:39. | :56:45. | |
Are ewe sure -- are we sure our technology is good enough to keep it | :56:46. | :56:52. | |
secret. I think your high grade crypto, which passes secret | :56:53. | :56:59. | |
information, is very good. But it is like when we used to spot people in | :57:00. | :57:06. | |
cybersecurity wreak -- breaking into our system and we would say isn't it | :57:07. | :57:11. | |
awful. The ones that worried me were the ones that we didn't know about. | :57:12. | :57:16. | |
The Germans in the Second World War thought their Cripps pose was -- | :57:17. | :57:25. | |
cryptowas rock solid. But it wassen. Do you miss getting the secret | :57:26. | :57:30. | |
documents? I think whent I went to -- went to the other department and | :57:31. | :57:34. | |
didn't have all this stuff that kept you right up to speed was a shock. | :57:35. | :57:43. | |
But it is quite nice now. Thank you. Now let's find out the answer to our | :57:44. | :57:47. | |
daily quiz. We asked what is Prince Charles' latest hobby horse. It is | :57:48. | :57:51. | |
tall pointy buildings, or wind farms, pension funds, or the price | :57:52. | :57:59. | |
of biscuits. The answer is... You won't get this - pension funds! Yes, | :58:00. | :58:05. | |
I am not sure if he has a pension fund. Here is what he said in a | :58:06. | :58:10. | |
recorded message to the conference of the National Association of | :58:11. | :58:14. | |
Pension Funds. With an ageing population, and pension funds | :58:15. | :58:17. | |
liabilities that are therefore stretching out for many decades, | :58:18. | :58:24. | |
surely the current focus on quarterly capitalism is becoming | :58:25. | :58:30. | |
unfit for purpose. So he has even talked about how quarterly reporting | :58:31. | :58:38. | |
wasn't a good thing from the 19th to the 20th century. Maybe he should | :58:39. | :58:44. | |
stand for Parliament. That's all for today. Thanks to our guests. The one | :58:45. | :58:48. | |
o'clock news is starting over on BBC One now. And I will be on BBC One | :58:49. | :58:52. | |
tonight for This Week with Michael Portillo, Adam Boulton, Nicholas | :58:53. | :58:54. | |
Parsons, Philip Collins and someone new on the sofa called Diane Abbott | :58:55. | :58:58. | |
- never heard of her! And I'll be here at noon tomorrow with all the | :58:59. | :59:02. | |
big political stories of the day. Do join | :59:03. | :59:03. |