22/10/2013 Daily Politics


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Good afternoon - welcome to The Daily Politics.


?2 billion - that's how much foreign patients cost the NHS every year,


says the Department of Health - but could we get some of that money back


with a tougher approach to migrants and visitors?


Nick Clegg thinks they need one, Michael Gove thinks they don't.


Should teachers have to have a teaching qualification to teach?


It's worth ?36 billion to the UK economy, but are our creative


industries being undermined by illegal downloads? For goodness


sake, what is the profession going to?


And why do some people love to hate education secretaries?


All that in the next hour, and with us for the whole programme today is


a former Education Secretary, Home Secretary, and Work and Pensions


Secretary, David Blunkett. Is sounded young in those days!


Let's start with Plebgate. You'll remember that a year ago, Andrew


Mitchell - who was the Government Chief Whip at the time - was


involved in an incident in Downing Street after police officers refused


to allow him to ride his bicycle through the gates. Mr Mitchell


admits swearing, but vehemently denies referring to police officers


as "plebs." Andrew Mitchell later met members of the the Police


Federation in his Sutton Coldfield constituency, in a meeting designed


to clear the air. But three police officers emerged from that meeting


to tell the press that Mr Mitchell had refused to elaborate on those


events and repeated their call for him to resign. Well, last week -


after hearing a recording of that meeting - the police watchdog


accused those officers of giving a misleading account, and called on


the officers involved to be disciplined. Yesterday, they issued


this statement. "We acknowledge the investigation's criticism relating


to our poor judgment in talking to the media following the meeting with


Andrew Mitchell, for which we take this opportunity to apologise.


Does that go far enough? Well, the apology would be much more realistic


and plausible if they had apologised for deliberately or otherwise


misleading the press that they're apologising, because they did go to


that meeting and came out saying Mr Mitchell hadn't said things which he


had said. He had been much clearer with them than they claimed. I think


an apology on those grounds would at least have gone some way to sorting


this out. My own view is he should never have been forced out in the


first place. It was a storm in a teacup. It is the kind of thing


against its own moment. All of this could have been resolved quickly. Do


you think he should get his job back? I don't think he will get his


job back but I would be surprised if he didn't get invited back into the


Cabinet at the general election order the opposition front bench


after the general election. Do you believe that David Davis, a friend


of Mr Mitchell, is right when he says that actually the officers are


guilty of a premeditated attack on Andrew Mitchell? Do you see it in


those conspiratorial terms? Well, premeditated is pretty strong. It is


clear they clearly had a position in their heads, they were in attack


mode. I think whatever he said to them, they would come out and say


something detrimental. I think that is fundamentally wrong. Police


officers have to be able to make rational, balanced judgements. I


think that is what undermined confidence on this particular


issue. Whilst I am concerned about this and other high profile issues


over the last 25 years, I do actually think we are more


transparent in terms of policing, we are clearer about what we expect


from them than we were 25 years ago. This won't help the trust issue


though will it? People say, if this is what can happen with a high


profile politician, what chance do we have? I understand that and we


need to take whatever steps that are necessary. But until 30 years ago


police officers didn't have to record interviews, there was a real


suspicion not least in incidents like the West Midlands serious crime


squad where massive abuse took place. So we need to get it into


some sort of historic context, because, actually, day in, day out,,


ordinary policemen and women are doing a good job.


Now, it's time for our daily quiz. Who, according to Wales Online,


sensationally resigned yesterday? Was it a) The Pope, b) David


Cameron, c) Welsh rugby coach Warren Gatland, or d) the Prince of Wales?


At the end of the show, David will give us the correct answer.


The NHS could claw back more than half a billion pounds a year if it


was better at charging foreign nationals for using the health


service. That's the finding of a report which has been commissioned


by the Health Secretary. Yes, Jeremy Hunt wants to get tough on so-called


health tourists and toughen up the rules for foreigners who access the


NHS. The study he commissioned says that the cost of migrants who are


already in Britain, but not eligible for free treatment, is ?388 million.


The report also says foreigners who visit simply to use the health


service costs anywhere between ?70 million and ?300 million a year. As


part of its Immigration Bill, the Government has already announced it


plans to charge an annual levy of ?200 for non-EU migrants and ?150


for foreign students. It's hoped that will raise about ?200 million


each year. Joining me now is the Conservative MP Henry Smith, who


introduced a Private Members' Bill last year to highlight the issue of


health tourism, and Clare Gerada, who chairs the Royal College of GPs.


Welcome to both of you. Clare do you accept the NHS loses this much money


through the treatment of foreign patients? I think there certainly is


some expenditure on people who are not entitled to NHS care,


absolutely. But the figures are complicated. There are expats as


well. It is not necessarily foreigners. People may have been


born in this country, gone overseas to live, and come back here when


they are older and frailer. You also have students, perfectly entitled to


come here and steady and pay student fees, who are included. So clearly


where there is absolute abuse of the system we need to get a grip, but we


must make sure that if we do implement anything, that it is


proportionate and it doesn't make the GPA border agent. Do you think


it is proportionate to charge people what you say is very legitimate? I


think it is legitimate to charge EU nationals who use the NHS under


perfectly reasonable arrangements that exist across the whole of the


EU. That could be anything from 600 to ?900 million that we could


recoup, apparently. What is the factual evidence that that amount of


money is being lost? As far as I understand, it all sounds anecdotal,


and concrete figures are difficult to come by. That is the problem, we


are not properly recording the treatments of foreign nationals on


the NHS. The report suggests only 16% of treatments of European


National is on the National Health Service is actually recovered. When


I did Freedom of information requests last year to all NHS


officers and the country, the estimates ranged from ?200 million


to ?2 billion. If we were to recover three quarters of the costs we do


currently, we would be able to employ an extra 4000 doctors. What


do you say to her point that they don't want to be a Border Agency? It


would be front-line staff who would have to be involved in checking the


eligibility of patients that come to them from abroad, where they are


from, and how much they would have to pay. I understand those concerns.


" the rest of the world do this already. If you go to France, Spain,


the US, Australia, and you seek public health care, they will record


your eligibility for that. Secondly, if they recover the costs, this will


be less of a burden on the NHS, not more. It is not as easy as just


saying their eligibility. We would have to look at their passport and


how many times they were in and out of the country. If they were from


the EU we would have to look for proof that they had been here for


the record is it amount of time to get free health care in this


country. So it is very complicated and it is not something I is a GP


should be doing. I accept there are some groups who come here and fall


ill and under reciprocal arrangements we can. How else would


we get the money? Hospitals already get the money from road traffic


accidents through insurance companies. They are setup to do


that. But ask me as a GP or my receptionist to be quizzing a


65-year-old about how long they are going to be a way, whether they are


paying attention - that is not my job. That is not how it will


operate. How would it work? It will work the same way it does in the


rest of the European economic area. We are not properly recording the


cost of treating foreign nationals. You have not and said how the money


will come from a patient who comes into Clare's surgery and says where


they are from - presumably they will have to be asked questions by


somebody in the surgery, is that right? Well, if you open a bank


account here as a foreign national you have to provide details. The


rest of the Private practice does that all the time. The problem is


not that we think we should be looking at it, that is legitimate.


It is the implementation. It is making sure my prime responsibility


is to the patients in front of me. Actually, hospitals may well be


better placed to do some of this. It is also making sure we don't start


assuming every foreign national is there to abuse our system. They are


not. Is there an element of xenophobia, as Diane Abbott


suggested? I think the biggest problem is expats, it is our


mothers, fathers, aunts and uncles who come back. We are denigrating


yet again immigrants who are more likely to be caring for us than


abusing our health care system. I do think the charge of xenophobia is


quite insulting. This is what the rest of the world does. If you are a


Brit going abroad on business or holiday to Europe elsewhere, you are


expected to carry your European health insurance card or have travel


insurance when you travel abroad. This is what we do, it is what the


rest of the world does, it is time the British taxpayer wasn't picking


up this burden. David Blunkett, isn't it true - when I go to France,


and I have been to a GP there, I paid ?25 to see the GP and for some


antibiotics for my son. Shouldn't that happen here? Well, leave aside


the fact that GPs don't exist in the rest of the world the same way they


do here, the principle is unanswerable. Of course, we should


do everything we can. Ten years ago I was into this as Home Secretary.


The Department of Health were reluctant to come up with an


estimate of figures then, just as we're arguing about the figures now.


This was part of my desire to have a clean register of those entitled to


work, entitled to public services, and, dare I mention it, the ID card


idea, which would have made it very easy to know whether someone was at


least practically in a position to access our public services. In the


end, we need good administrative systems, and Clare is right, GPs on


the whole registering people. What do you say to Andy who says the


government has released headline grabbing figures based on incomplete


data. A Labour MP has said we should not be arguing about the research,


we should just be backing the principle, as you said. Well, I


cannot disagree with that. I don't think Andy Burnham is wrong, it is


headline grabbing on a day when we have yet another immigration Bill


having its second reading in the House of Commons. This is what this


is about, and I hope we can have an all-party approach to this, which


is, yes, we need to get the money in because it is money that should be


spent on patients in our communities through our health service. What do


you say to that, that these are headline grabbing figures? Well, I


think we should have an all-party approach to this. The vast majority


of our electorate are telling us they want is to address this


problem. I was delighted a Labour member was one of the co-sponsors of


my Private Members' Bill on this issue last year. I think it is a


case of fairness to patients and to the taxpayer. When budgets are


tight, it is about whether the cost of care is increasing. We need to be


as efficient with the budget as possible. If we can recover a figure


of around half ?1 billion, I think that is worth pursuing. And think of


what that would do in terms of recruitment of doctors.


If you were putting a cheque into every one of the 10,000 GP


practices, it would cost a vast amount of money. If it is about


chasing all, if it is about debt collection, again, it may well cost


a lot of money to collect. David Dunk it says you need those new


administrative services. -- David Blunkett. We are there to treat and


care for patients, not to ask them for their eligibility to health


care. Can I move on to something. The go home vans which were driving


around the inner London are is targeting illegal in the is. One


Tory MP said they were proud of those fans but they will not go


ahead. They failed. The evidence did not show that they made any


difference to a sensible or rational approach to saying, if you are not


entitled to be here, if you are not entitled to draw on a fix, then you


should go home. What do you think? I think in theory it is a thing worth


looking at. If you go into a shop there are notices saying if you


shoplift you will be prosecuted. So there should be a sign saying if you


are illegal, you will be deported. But those vans made people less


willing to report people than more willing. As a citizen I am ashamed


that we have fans like that which frightened people. I am ashamed that


my tax payers money is used for that sort of advertising. Even the


illegal immigrants? They are frightening vans. They are drug


trade and I am sure there are better ways of addressing illegal


immigrants. Well, they will not be around any more. Thank you.


Now, President Hollande of France told President Obama last night that


spying on millions of French telephone calls is not the behaviour


of a friend and ally. Revelations that the US National


Security Agency or NSA was eavesdropping on the communications


of members of the public around the world were contained in documents


leaked by former NSA contractor Edward Snowden and published in the


UK by the Guardian newspaper. But MPs here, including the Prime


Minister, have criticised the Guardian, accusing them of


compromising national security. The backbench Conservative MP Julian


Smith, is holding a debate in parliament this afternoon. He's in


central Lobby as is Julian Huppert who has defended the newspaper's


right to publish. Welcome to both of you. Julian Smith, you say the


Guardian has crossed the line between responsible journalism and


seriously risking national security. Wide? I think there is a


darker side to this whole story which has seen one Briton's leading


newspapers sent highly controversial information, potentially including


details of people who have protected us, has sent those documents


overseas, stored in a way which is incredibly vulnerable to terrorist


infiltration and really providing to the world and ability to find out


the deepest detail of our intelligence operations. Julian


Huppert, you can respond directly to that and the Prime Minister has said


it has damaged our national security and it is a gift to the terrorists.


I have not seen anything which was published which would be a gift to


terrorists. They have not published names and details. They have raised


an important public debate. I think it is important that people know not


the details of what is being done, but that there is widespread


surveillance so we can have a chance to think about what is that balance.


We know GCHQ and others play a critical role. They have to do that


with the consent of the British public. I will be asking later on


for a debate in Parliament about this issue and what is OK and what


is not. There is a public interest case because people did not realise


the content of e-mails or private correspondence was being looked at.


There is absolutely the need for responsible journalism in this area.


The Guardian is revealing something we did not know. The Guardian


overstepped the line. Why did they publish details of internal


communications, showing the gay and lesbian clubs which GCHQ staff


belong to is that why did they showed PowerPoint presentations and


send those allegedly overseas? It is that question which needs answering.


I accept the public interest and having a debate. I accept we should


monitor our intelligence services. But the Guardian has gone beyond


this. Do you think there is a case to answer that the Guardian has in a


way done what it is accusing governments of doing and it has in a


blanket way published secret files? The Guardian has chosen carefully


what to publish and what not to. What about the information about


GCHQ individuals? There is not much individual information. The Guardian


was careful about that. Julian talked about the PowerPoint slides.


That was the key information which let us know how much of this there


was. If the Guardian had published things saying we have seen stuff but


cannot tell you about it, people would be criticising them for that.


There will be careful discussion about that. I know the Guardian has


spoken lawyers about this. I have not seen anything, they have opened


up the public debate which is essential. We have to make sure we


can trust GCHQ and other agencies. This debate is helpful. Do you trust


GCHQ? Not at the expense of national security. The Guardian has a major


stain on it because it has crossed that bridge between responsible


journalism and protect the lives of the families and the people who have


protected us for many, many years and it is that I want to highlight


in Parliament today. I understand why your concern didn't if they had


published list of agents I would join you in that case but they did


not do that. There are many politicians and people involved in


intelligence agencies who think it does risk security. There will be


people who think it is not worth doing anything which sacrifices our


national security when having a debate about the balance between


freedom, privacy and national security. I think the best way to


strengthen National Security Agency to have an open discussion so that


people are comfortable and they are doing the right things. It has been


said that they need to get engaged and reassure the public. To define


everything is top secret does not provide that security. President


Hollande is very unhappy about this. He has expressed his deep


disapproval to President Obama about the National Security Agency in the


USA recorded 70 million French phone calls and one month. They said that


as infringing the rights of French citizens. I have not challenge the


Guardian to reveal information in a responsible way. What I do say is we


stand here throughout the world with detailed information about GCHQ and


our intelligence services in highly vulnerable storage, looked after by


the Guardian's journalists. That is wrong and that wrong has to be


righted. Thank you both of you. David Blunkett, should we worry


about National is the two with the publication of these files? Yes, we


should. The intelligence and Security committee has been given


new powers. They have decided they will investigate and take a look and


come back to us. That is really important that we do not rely on the


Guardian or any other newspaper to actually protect us in terms of our


freedoms being eroded. We would not have had that debate without it.


Having a free press is really important but having national


systems and processes to protect us from the closure -- disclosure of


information which has been stolen, is a bad idea. We cannot have an


individual editor who is acting irresponsibly. I think the editor of


the Guardian has. He is being judge and jury. That is not the way the


world can work. Incidentally, I love the French suggestion that everybody


knows they are up to it as well. Everybody is up to it or that is the


feeling that there is a double standard, if you like. On the issue


of the press, there will be a fear that an attempt is being made by the


press to silence these issues. That is why they have opened the debate.


That is why this discussion which you have just had is very


important. On the one hand, we do not want people stealing material


and putting it out in the ether and undermining the very protection of


our well-being. That is what the intelligence community is doing. On


the other hand, actually suppressing things which we should legitimately


know is going on. Not just the detail but the process. Do we want


that in our democracy. I think we do but we need to carry people with us.


Thank you. Now, Free Schools are a flagship


part of the Government's education policy. These new institutions are


free of local authority control, free not to follow the national


curriculum, free to feed children what they want and free to hire


teachers who don't have a teaching qualification. It was a surprise


then that at the weekend the Deputy Prime Minister suggested that they


shouldn't have some of these freedoms, and specifically that the


Liberal Democrats wanted teachers at these schools to have Qualified


Teacher Status. It's caused rather a rift within the coalition and


yesterday afternoon the Business Secretary, Vince Cable, was asked to


clarify the Lib Dem position. The original idea that we voted for, the


assumption was they were properly qualified teachers and that seems to


have changed. We are making it clear in the next Parliament, we want a


proper commitment to train teachers. That is what it beggars emphasising


and I totally support him. We're joined now by the deputy


headmaster of the independent school, Brighton College, John


Weeks. They also sponsor an academy in East London. And former education


secretary, David Blunkett, is still here. John Weeks, first of all, are


you worried by the comments from Nick Clegg about teacher training


and the standard of school meals. I think I am worried about it, yes. We


have got no objections to teachers who have a training qualification. I


think there is a great worth and value in those qualifications that


go on at university. Indeed, I have a qualification, a PGCE myself. I am


worried that there is a call for them to be mandatory for all


teachers. We have very successfully inducted a lot of unqualified


teachers into both our schools in Brighton, the independent school in


Brighton, and indeed up at the London Academy where over half of


the 38 staff do not have an official teaching qualification. And yet,


they teach very successfully, both here in Brighton and up in London.


So, the comments by Nick Clegg, where does that leave you and your


teachers? I think that needs to be looked at again. We have done a lot


of research in Brighton and around the world about what are the most


important factors in a really top education. And without exception,


the country and institutions around the world -- the countries and


institutions around the world which have the most successful education


cultures, take the top 10% of graduates from their universities.


We find here and in our recruitment both at the London Academy and in


Brighton, we recruit those teachers who are the most highly qualified in


their subjects. Just hold on one minute and get a response from David


Luckett. Do you think it is important that teachers in schools


in England should have qualified teacher status? Yes, I do. I am a


qualified teacher. There is no contradiction between recruiting the


best graduates in the country and then ensuring that they are trained.


That is why I introduced those years ago Teach First, to get the


graduates in and teach them on the job. We have teaching schools


Alliance programmes now which teach youngsters in the school. But at the


end of the day, knowing your subject is not enough. Being able to


translate and transmit that information and engage young people


and learning is what it is all about. Brighton College can do


whatever they like, they are private school. The parents will hold them


to account. I am not against having people working to train teachers,


instruct does in particular areas, teaching assistants are commonplace.


It is a question whether the clash should be supervised -- it is a


question whether the clasps should be supervised by summer with


pedagogic knowledge. Otherwise lets her brain surgeons from a technician


who was pretty good at managing something entirely different.


Although as John Weeks was saying, if these people are highly qualified


in their subject, are very bright and have communication skills, do


you need a specific qualification? I think top graduates can be brought


in immediately and encouraged and supported to remain where that is


appropriate. But in the end, I had teachers who knew their subject


extremely well and were absolutely useless at being able to


communicate. That is no good to any of us. What do you say to that?


You've got to be able to handle the class and go through a process by


which you are taught how to teach children. Yes, we have a


comprehensive, thorough mentoring and support process, particularly


through the first year, where all the new teachers have weekly


meetings with the heads of department, they are observed, they


have undergoing pupil questionnaires. Is that the same as


having a qualification? Yes, Brighton College is an independent


school where you are able to do that, but in terms of the three


schools, do you think Nick Clegg is right, David Blunkett is right, they


must have this qualified teacher status? I don't think so. I think


the support we provide in Brighton is perfectly sufficient. We've taken


graduates and also more experienced people from industry, we've got a


nuclear physicist teaching us, an aid worker teaching in the geography


department, and I do wonder whether, if they had to go through that extra


year, would they have come into teaching at all? That would be a


shame. It's a terrible thing that we should ask people to be qualified


when we asked the rest of the world to do just that


you understand people will worry and they may use that argument? I don't


think so. There are many headmasters out there without qualifications who


are perfectly successful. Over the last few years we have failed if you


teachers on the probation, as many with qualifications as without. I


don't see a qualification. It is simply whether they are a good


teacher or not. Well, we do train teachers and their dropout very


quickly after qualifying. We need to work out the career path so that


young people coming in really do know that if they are going to get


the necessary qualification and body of knowledge to teach that they


actually stick with us. What about Labour's position on free school


's? Labour has been accused of changing its mind. Tristram Hunt has


had to come in and retract from his comments that free schools were just


for yummy mummies. Now, he is all for them as long as there is need.


Where is Labour on free schools? I'm undertaking a review with Ed


Miliband and Tristram Hunt on the way to go forwards. I will report on


that next year. Just answer your question, 13 years ago, there was a


parent led school in Dulwich where there was a shortage of secondary


places. Parents wanted to be involved and I saw nothing wrong


with that. That is what Tristram Hunt said. I think we can square


this circle, we just need a bit of common sense. Pupils have an


entitlement. That entitlement should apply whichever status of school,


which aired the area you live in. That should be about the best


possible teaching in the classroom and the best leadership in the


school, and people who are held to account. If you can square that


circle, we will get back contract, rather than believing free schools


are ideological and the end of the game. Actually, the status and


structure of schools is all about the standards and delivering to the


pupils. Just a reminder, three schools are in England only. -- free


schools. So, Britain is getting a new nuclear


power station, but it won't be British owned or designed, so should


we be concerned about the state of our engineering sector? According to


the Institution of Engineering and Technology, we should be - they say


there is a skills crisis in the sector and are also concerned by the


lack of female engineers. Currently just 7% of engineers are female. So


how can we encourage more girls to consider engineering as a career?


Here are the views of some students in Sheffield. I like


problem-solving, which is what engineering is about. I thought


engineering was about cars and lifts. But we do code breaking here.


I really like that. Everyone was saying it was for boys but I wanted


to see what it was about. On TV, you watch programmes and it is always


boys. I think the key is information. I think a lot of people


push other occupations forward more than others. I think if there were


more successful role models in engineering, people would look up to


it. It would be something to aspire to.


I'm joined now by Roma Agrawal, a structural engineer who worked on


the Shard, and Peter Luff MP, who is campaigning for more action to


encourage young people in to engineering and science. What


attracted you to engineering? It's such a fun profession. It is


creative, collaborative. I love making things. It probably started


with my love of putting Lego together as a young child. Making


that leap to building the Shard is something we need to make. I would


love to think my children could become engineers. Did you realise


you were going into a profession where there were hardly any women? I


actually studied physics and switched to engineering and


afterwards when I became more aware of it. It never bothered me there


were not many women. Why don't we have more women like Roma in


engineering? Well, firstly, it is important to recognise we need more


engineers. But we certainly need more women. The evidence is, a lot


of gender at -- stereotyping takes place at school. Coeducational


schools in particular do not have more girls doing physics. Whether a


lot of girls in your class doing physics? I was in a year of 120


girls, it was a girls school. There were 14 of us doing physics. I'm


pleased to say I went back recently and that has now doubled to 30, so


that things seem to be looking up. There clearly are not enough girls


studying physics. I wonder if it is difficult to connect where physics


will lead you. Is that not the industry 's fault? Don't they need


to do a bit more in terms of sending people like Roma out to say, look at


me. I do a job in engineering, and I am just like you. You are right.


Engineering UK is bringing together a complex package of schemes, that


they are not doing enough to say, this is an exciting career. I think


girls need to be reached at primary school and told what a great career


it is. Because it is a good job. Particularly when we just come


through a recession, if you are a graduate trying to get into media,


you might find it easier to get into engineering, if you'd chosen that


career path. Yes, I think people with logical minds who are good at


problem-solving are in high demand in any profession. So engineering


graduates are snapped up by other professions as well. Do you think


Labour missed this? We know now there is a shortage of engineers. We


have a great heritage of engineering and not enough was done to push it


as a subject, particularly for women? Well, there were a number of


schools which chose engineering as a specialism. That then eroded. That's


the problem with the education system, we go in waves. And the


three of us are in total agreement on this, it's nice for once. Physics


is a good route to engineering. The University of technology, I'm fully


in favour of them. So there are a number of routes there. I got this a


long time ago. My then wife, when we were camping with our small


children, used to open the back of the car and play at very high


volume, Monica wants to be an engineer it. I think they were


getting the message. As Roma says, engineering is fun and we need to


get industry into schools, using the new design and technology curriculum


to say, hey, you can use these skills. What skills do women bring


to engineering? More creativity, more team work. Females tend to be


better at that. We need more women in engineering for the engineering


companies. What about mentors, that is the problem, isn't it? Mentors at


all levels. A lot of women going to engineering companies and don't go


on. They find it too much of a male environment. We need ambassadors


going into primary schools and saying, you can do this. There is a


centre at the University of Sheffield working with Boeing. I've


met the people on apprenticeships and they are not entirely male but


they are largely, so we need to work on that. That is going back to the


issue of schools. Why are girls giving up sciences so early on? Is


it because they are so difficult? Girls can handle that, can't they?


Yes, and I think one thing that is being brought to write is we are


trying to show girls that studying physics and maths can lead to this.


We've had 14-year-olds and 17-year-olds coming to our office


this year and hopefully open their eyes to the whole world of


possibilities with a physics GCSE or A-level. It is getting better. About


as many girls took GCSE physics as boys. The key now is to get them


taking A-levels as well. You are no longer up to your elbows in oil as


an engineer. The world has completely transformed. Yes, we


spend a lot of time with architects and sketches, saying, how are we


going to make a building stand up, for example. It is very


collaborative and creative. It is an exciting profession. The image of


engineering is out of date. If you want to make a life-saving device,


you need an engineering education. So the idea of being a geek, is that


wrong? It is a stereotype. I'm an engineer. You don't look like a


geek! That's the sort of thing we need to do. Have you got a benchmark


the need to reach? Physics is the fourth most popular subject the boys


and 19th girls. I would like to see more girls taking it at A-level.


Then they can decide what to do. How many women engineers do you think we


need? We are 7% at present. France has 22%. We should be up 50%. It can


be done. I've seen it. Do you think Michael Gove values engineering in


the way it should be valued? I think it is encouraging. There has been a


review on engineering skills which is being published in two weeks'


time. But we cannot let this go, it's got to be achieved. There is a


lot to do, but I'm very optimistic. A third of our graduate intake last


year was female, so things are looking up. Thank you both very


much. Now one of the UK's success stories


is our creative industries. Our film, television, publishing and


design companies create over one and half million jobs and bring in ?36


billion pounds a year. But despite this they are vulnerable to piracy


and lose millions of pounds annually. The recent Emmy success of


Breaking Bad was partly owed to the illegal download and a recent OFCOM


report said that almost a quarter of all downloads in the UK are of


pirated content. Well, Pete Wishart thinks it's time that something


should be done about it. This is his soapbox.


That is me with the Scottish band Runrig performing on Top Of The


Pops. Our industries are protected and properly rewarded for the


fantastic work they produce. Being creative is something we do very,


very well. Whether it is film, music, publishing or design, the UK


is in the top three of practically every cultural sector. 1.5 million


people work within the creative industries and that generates


something like ?35 billion to the economy. For all the success, these


remain particularly fragile industries, that is because of the


online changing digital environment where standing still for even one


minute is not an option. Intellectual and property rights


underpins the success and ensures the artist, creator and inventor are


properly rewarded for the work they produce. But sometimes intellectual


property rights are seen as a problem, something which is not


respected, particularly in the online environment. If I walked into


a hardware store and helped myself to the goods on offer I would be


arrested, charged and convicted. But for some reason it seems to be


okayed to take the rights of work online for nothing. This risks


investment and jobs. We have got to start to get it through to people


that taking something for nothing online is the same as taking


something for nothing on the high Street. The IP rights are important


property rights which protect the artist and creator and ensure they


are rewarded for the works they produce. In the last Parliament, all


parties agreed the Digital economy act and now is the time to get it


into law, to ensure we can educate the public about illegal downloading


and piracy. We have perhaps lost a generation to illegal downloading.


We cannot afford to lose another. And Pete Wishart joins us now. We


are hoping to be joined by the Labour MP Tom Watson who is in


Birmingham. Apparently we can talk to him in a moment. Is illegal


downloading really that much of a problem? Yes, it is. It is a real


issue for our creative industries. So much is lost to illegal


downloading and has to be challenged. We all agreed to the


Digital economy act in the last Parliament. So we can start educate


some of our young people around the issues. A recent OFCOM report said


it was a minority activity with 2% of users accounting for three


quarters of all downloads. The music industry reckons it loses something


like 200 million pounds a year. The film industry has it worse. These


are huge figures. They cost jobs and investment. We have to make sure we


do something to challenge that. There are legitimate places


available where people can get the product legally. We have to make


sure people can be directed towards that. We have fantastic industries


and we lead the world when it comes to being creative. We should make


sure we continue to develop that. Tom Watson, something needs to be


done otherwise it is risking our creative industries? I agree that


our creative industries are the jewel in the crown of the country.


But I am afraid the remedy for the digital Economy act, when it comes


to film and music, it is a flawed act. It was railroaded through by


Peter Mandelson in the dying days of the last government. It did not go


to committee and had no public scrutiny. It was appallingly doesn't


live -- delivered to Parliament. But Pete is right. We do need to deal


with the super pirates that undermine the market. But clamping


down on exit downloaders, I think is a mistake. It is over burdensome. It


probably will not have any support out there, will it and the act is


flawed? All the parties agreed to it apart from the Liberals. It was


designed to ensure that we could educate young people. What they will


get is notifications, a nice letter explaining that piracy and


downloading is going on in this particular household and it will


address it to see how they can deal with this and make sure they are


directed towards legitimate site where they can acquire the wonderful


products in illegal way. What is wrong with that, Tom Watson? You say


it is a sledgehammer to deal with this but how else do you do it?


Digital sales of music grew 12%, in fact vinyl sales of music group for


a large amount the music industry has failed to deal with the advent


of the Internet. They are reaping what they sowed ten years ago. That


OFCOM report you talked about, 85% of us bathe the law when it comes to


downloading. What they showed was is the letters Pete talk about would


not deter infringers from continuing to download. I think there needs to


be a different way of doing this. My view would be organisations like


Google should use some of the tax money that they are not paying into


the Exchequer to really clamp down on the pirate sites which market and


make a great deal of money by enhancing piracy, rather than


looking at consumers. Some of the artists out there, there is a great


musician who has a new album out next Monday, he has released a


single for free on YouTube today to try and build that new interest in


his music. That is how some of these great creators are going. Isn't that


how new careers are made. The problem is, you might damage some of


that by introducing what Tom Watson believes is heavy-handed


legislation. Shouldn't the onus be put on the companies out there?


There is a big obligation to kill Elidh when it comes to piracy. If


you do a Google search you will be directed to any number of sites


where you will be able to download illegal products. We have industries


to support here. It is not just the artists, it is the make up artists,


the technicians, the studio engineers. These are fantastic


industries we should be proud of. They are telling us they are hurting


because of this. We will lose our position in the top three in the


sectors around the world. David Blunkett, whose side are you one? We


are in a real mess. Was it a shabby piece of legislation? It was not


brilliant. The bulk of the act has a good intent which is to say what was


illegal, that is theft, in the normal past world should still be


left in this digital world. But I agree entirely with the idea that we


should tackle the search engines and the piracy as well as warning just


individuals that they are actually thieving. The fact that it is the


Internet does not mean it is different. It is leaving. In the


meantime, the industry which has been squealing about this for many


years could diminish? That is not the case. We have more and more


people consuming music, literature, art, because of the Internet rather


than not because of it. I think the big publishing interests which are


backed up by huge lobbyists are threatened, their business model is


threatened but new creators entering the market, small musicians, this is


a great opportunity. Thank you. Now, what is it about education?


Politicians who meddle in it seem to attract an inordinate amount of


abuse from the teaching profession and others. The current incumbent at


the Department for Education, Michael Gove, has an enthusiastic


club of detractors. One Brighton woman is even selling a "Michael


Gove Voodoo Pincushion." She says, "it's crocheted by hand and mentally


infused with mean thoughts about Michael Gove." Right. But Michael


Gove is not alone. Our guest of the day, David Blunkett, may not have


had his likeness reproduced as a pin cushion but will remember jeers as


well as cheers in his time as Education Secretary. Here's a


reminder of what those with the education brief have had to put up


with. Most parents can afford to provide


their own children with milk or give them money to buy milk.


For goodness sake, what is the profession coming to, if I have come


here to say things are improving and you heckle me.


If people find it stressful that I am demanding higher standards I am


not going to stop demanding higher standards.


It is a tough job but somebody has got to do it. Our Education


Secretary is always hated? If you are doing the job rigourously, you


will always upset somebody. Everybody? We did not upset


everybody. The worst was when I went to the Association of teachers and


lecturers and they had agreed that they would not say a word. Nobody


clapped, nobody laughed, nobody booed. It was absolutely deadly.


Anyway, I am on good terms with them now. The behaviour has improved,


that the Lord, because I said, what sort of example is this for pupils


is it when you are behaving like this? We can have a disagreement but


we do not have to do it in this way. Sometimes it was good, sometimes it


was excruciating. My successor, Estelle Morris and then Charles


Clarke, Charles decided he would not turn up at all... Do you think that


was right? It was easier life. But you have not gone into it for an


easy life. Do you have sympathy for Michael Gove, pin cushions and all?


I have sympathy if he gets abused but I do not have sympathy with the


ideological part of his agenda. We both want to improve standards.


Maybe it is because he is doing the job right now, but he does seem to


have attracted an inordinate amount of criticism and abuse. I think it


is partly because he starts off not listening and by the time he does


listen, people forget it was in the first place. He gets abuse for doing


the wrong thing and then he gets chided for having changed his mind.


Let's talk about Nick Clegg briefly. Do we have to? ! Who do you think he


is appealing to with his policy on free schools. Former Liberal


Democrat voters. I could not fault what he said on the three issues


that actually, bearing mind that Margaret Thatcher introduced the


curriculum, that the government say they are in favour of decent food in


schools and that there is only a fringe element that do not think


teachers should be able to teach. A Lib lab coalition? Come on. Maybe a


neighbour of mine in Sheffield but we are not in a love in. On this one


occasion I would agree with him and it is painful to do so. Finally, in


the answer to the queries, who resigned yesterday? It was David


Cameron, I should have made you guess. Well done, Wales Online, just


a bit premature! That's all for today. Thanks to our


guests. The One o'clock News is starting over on BBC One now. Andrew


and I will be here at 11.30am tomorrow with Prime Minister's


Questions and all the big political stories of the day. Do join us then.




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