Browse content similar to 22/10/2013. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Good afternoon - welcome to The Daily Politics. | :00:35. | :00:39. | |
?2 billion - that's how much foreign patients cost the NHS every year, | :00:40. | :00:42. | |
says the Department of Health - but could we get some of that money back | :00:43. | :00:46. | |
with a tougher approach to migrants and visitors? | :00:47. | :00:51. | |
Nick Clegg thinks they need one, Michael Gove thinks they don't. | :00:52. | :00:54. | |
Should teachers have to have a teaching qualification to teach? | :00:55. | :01:01. | |
It's worth ?36 billion to the UK economy, but are our creative | :01:02. | :01:03. | |
industries being undermined by illegal downloads? For goodness | :01:04. | :01:15. | |
sake, what is the profession going to? | :01:16. | :01:20. | |
And why do some people love to hate education secretaries? | :01:21. | :01:30. | |
All that in the next hour, and with us for the whole programme today is | :01:31. | :01:33. | |
a former Education Secretary, Home Secretary, and Work and Pensions | :01:34. | :01:39. | |
Secretary, David Blunkett. Is sounded young in those days! | :01:40. | :01:46. | |
Let's start with Plebgate. You'll remember that a year ago, Andrew | :01:47. | :01:49. | |
Mitchell - who was the Government Chief Whip at the time - was | :01:50. | :01:53. | |
involved in an incident in Downing Street after police officers refused | :01:54. | :01:56. | |
to allow him to ride his bicycle through the gates. Mr Mitchell | :01:57. | :01:59. | |
admits swearing, but vehemently denies referring to police officers | :02:00. | :02:02. | |
as "plebs." Andrew Mitchell later met members of the the Police | :02:03. | :02:04. | |
Federation in his Sutton Coldfield constituency, in a meeting designed | :02:05. | :02:09. | |
to clear the air. But three police officers emerged from that meeting | :02:10. | :02:12. | |
to tell the press that Mr Mitchell had refused to elaborate on those | :02:13. | :02:16. | |
events and repeated their call for him to resign. Well, last week - | :02:17. | :02:20. | |
after hearing a recording of that meeting - the police watchdog | :02:21. | :02:23. | |
accused those officers of giving a misleading account, and called on | :02:24. | :02:26. | |
the officers involved to be disciplined. Yesterday, they issued | :02:27. | :02:33. | |
this statement. "We acknowledge the investigation's criticism relating | :02:34. | :02:36. | |
to our poor judgment in talking to the media following the meeting with | :02:37. | :02:39. | |
Andrew Mitchell, for which we take this opportunity to apologise. | :02:40. | :02:56. | |
Does that go far enough? Well, the apology would be much more realistic | :02:57. | :03:05. | |
and plausible if they had apologised for deliberately or otherwise | :03:06. | :03:13. | |
misleading the press that they're apologising, because they did go to | :03:14. | :03:19. | |
that meeting and came out saying Mr Mitchell hadn't said things which he | :03:20. | :03:23. | |
had said. He had been much clearer with them than they claimed. I think | :03:24. | :03:27. | |
an apology on those grounds would at least have gone some way to sorting | :03:28. | :03:31. | |
this out. My own view is he should never have been forced out in the | :03:32. | :03:37. | |
first place. It was a storm in a teacup. It is the kind of thing | :03:38. | :03:41. | |
against its own moment. All of this could have been resolved quickly. Do | :03:42. | :03:47. | |
you think he should get his job back? I don't think he will get his | :03:48. | :03:51. | |
job back but I would be surprised if he didn't get invited back into the | :03:52. | :03:56. | |
Cabinet at the general election order the opposition front bench | :03:57. | :04:04. | |
after the general election. Do you believe that David Davis, a friend | :04:05. | :04:08. | |
of Mr Mitchell, is right when he says that actually the officers are | :04:09. | :04:19. | |
guilty of a premeditated attack on Andrew Mitchell? Do you see it in | :04:20. | :04:25. | |
those conspiratorial terms? Well, premeditated is pretty strong. It is | :04:26. | :04:29. | |
clear they clearly had a position in their heads, they were in attack | :04:30. | :04:34. | |
mode. I think whatever he said to them, they would come out and say | :04:35. | :04:38. | |
something detrimental. I think that is fundamentally wrong. Police | :04:39. | :04:43. | |
officers have to be able to make rational, balanced judgements. I | :04:44. | :04:50. | |
think that is what undermined confidence on this particular | :04:51. | :04:55. | |
issue. Whilst I am concerned about this and other high profile issues | :04:56. | :04:59. | |
over the last 25 years, I do actually think we are more | :05:00. | :05:04. | |
transparent in terms of policing, we are clearer about what we expect | :05:05. | :05:09. | |
from them than we were 25 years ago. This won't help the trust issue | :05:10. | :05:15. | |
though will it? People say, if this is what can happen with a high | :05:16. | :05:19. | |
profile politician, what chance do we have? I understand that and we | :05:20. | :05:28. | |
need to take whatever steps that are necessary. But until 30 years ago | :05:29. | :05:34. | |
police officers didn't have to record interviews, there was a real | :05:35. | :05:41. | |
suspicion not least in incidents like the West Midlands serious crime | :05:42. | :05:46. | |
squad where massive abuse took place. So we need to get it into | :05:47. | :05:51. | |
some sort of historic context, because, actually, day in, day out,, | :05:52. | :05:58. | |
ordinary policemen and women are doing a good job. | :05:59. | :06:02. | |
Now, it's time for our daily quiz. Who, according to Wales Online, | :06:03. | :06:04. | |
sensationally resigned yesterday? Was it a) The Pope, b) David | :06:05. | :06:07. | |
Cameron, c) Welsh rugby coach Warren Gatland, or d) the Prince of Wales? | :06:08. | :06:16. | |
At the end of the show, David will give us the correct answer. | :06:17. | :06:23. | |
The NHS could claw back more than half a billion pounds a year if it | :06:24. | :06:27. | |
was better at charging foreign nationals for using the health | :06:28. | :06:30. | |
service. That's the finding of a report which has been commissioned | :06:31. | :06:32. | |
by the Health Secretary. Yes, Jeremy Hunt wants to get tough on so-called | :06:33. | :06:36. | |
health tourists and toughen up the rules for foreigners who access the | :06:37. | :06:39. | |
NHS. The study he commissioned says that the cost of migrants who are | :06:40. | :06:43. | |
already in Britain, but not eligible for free treatment, is ?388 million. | :06:44. | :06:50. | |
The report also says foreigners who visit simply to use the health | :06:51. | :06:53. | |
service costs anywhere between ?70 million and ?300 million a year. As | :06:54. | :06:59. | |
part of its Immigration Bill, the Government has already announced it | :07:00. | :07:02. | |
plans to charge an annual levy of ?200 for non-EU migrants and ?150 | :07:03. | :07:09. | |
for foreign students. It's hoped that will raise about ?200 million | :07:10. | :07:15. | |
each year. Joining me now is the Conservative MP Henry Smith, who | :07:16. | :07:18. | |
introduced a Private Members' Bill last year to highlight the issue of | :07:19. | :07:21. | |
health tourism, and Clare Gerada, who chairs the Royal College of GPs. | :07:22. | :07:32. | |
Welcome to both of you. Clare do you accept the NHS loses this much money | :07:33. | :07:35. | |
through the treatment of foreign patients? I think there certainly is | :07:36. | :07:42. | |
some expenditure on people who are not entitled to NHS care, | :07:43. | :07:47. | |
absolutely. But the figures are complicated. There are expats as | :07:48. | :07:52. | |
well. It is not necessarily foreigners. People may have been | :07:53. | :07:55. | |
born in this country, gone overseas to live, and come back here when | :07:56. | :08:01. | |
they are older and frailer. You also have students, perfectly entitled to | :08:02. | :08:04. | |
come here and steady and pay student fees, who are included. So clearly | :08:05. | :08:09. | |
where there is absolute abuse of the system we need to get a grip, but we | :08:10. | :08:18. | |
must make sure that if we do implement anything, that it is | :08:19. | :08:20. | |
proportionate and it doesn't make the GPA border agent. Do you think | :08:21. | :08:24. | |
it is proportionate to charge people what you say is very legitimate? I | :08:25. | :08:30. | |
think it is legitimate to charge EU nationals who use the NHS under | :08:31. | :08:33. | |
perfectly reasonable arrangements that exist across the whole of the | :08:34. | :08:39. | |
EU. That could be anything from 600 to ?900 million that we could | :08:40. | :08:47. | |
recoup, apparently. What is the factual evidence that that amount of | :08:48. | :08:57. | |
money is being lost? As far as I understand, it all sounds anecdotal, | :08:58. | :09:00. | |
and concrete figures are difficult to come by. That is the problem, we | :09:01. | :09:21. | |
are not properly recording the treatments of foreign nationals on | :09:22. | :09:23. | |
the NHS. The report suggests only 16% of treatments of European | :09:24. | :09:26. | |
National is on the National Health Service is actually recovered. When | :09:27. | :09:27. | |
I did Freedom of information requests last year to all NHS | :09:28. | :09:30. | |
officers and the country, the estimates ranged from ?200 million | :09:31. | :09:32. | |
to ?2 billion. If we were to recover three quarters of the costs we do | :09:33. | :09:37. | |
currently, we would be able to employ an extra 4000 doctors. What | :09:38. | :09:41. | |
do you say to her point that they don't want to be a Border Agency? It | :09:42. | :09:46. | |
would be front-line staff who would have to be involved in checking the | :09:47. | :09:50. | |
eligibility of patients that come to them from abroad, where they are | :09:51. | :09:53. | |
from, and how much they would have to pay. I understand those concerns. | :09:54. | :10:02. | |
" the rest of the world do this already. If you go to France, Spain, | :10:03. | :10:07. | |
the US, Australia, and you seek public health care, they will record | :10:08. | :10:12. | |
your eligibility for that. Secondly, if they recover the costs, this will | :10:13. | :10:18. | |
be less of a burden on the NHS, not more. It is not as easy as just | :10:19. | :10:26. | |
saying their eligibility. We would have to look at their passport and | :10:27. | :10:30. | |
how many times they were in and out of the country. If they were from | :10:31. | :10:33. | |
the EU we would have to look for proof that they had been here for | :10:34. | :10:37. | |
the record is it amount of time to get free health care in this | :10:38. | :10:41. | |
country. So it is very complicated and it is not something I is a GP | :10:42. | :10:48. | |
should be doing. I accept there are some groups who come here and fall | :10:49. | :10:51. | |
ill and under reciprocal arrangements we can. How else would | :10:52. | :10:57. | |
we get the money? Hospitals already get the money from road traffic | :10:58. | :11:00. | |
accidents through insurance companies. They are setup to do | :11:01. | :11:06. | |
that. But ask me as a GP or my receptionist to be quizzing a | :11:07. | :11:14. | |
65-year-old about how long they are going to be a way, whether they are | :11:15. | :11:18. | |
paying attention - that is not my job. That is not how it will | :11:19. | :11:28. | |
operate. How would it work? It will work the same way it does in the | :11:29. | :11:34. | |
rest of the European economic area. We are not properly recording the | :11:35. | :11:37. | |
cost of treating foreign nationals. You have not and said how the money | :11:38. | :11:44. | |
will come from a patient who comes into Clare's surgery and says where | :11:45. | :11:50. | |
they are from - presumably they will have to be asked questions by | :11:51. | :11:54. | |
somebody in the surgery, is that right? Well, if you open a bank | :11:55. | :11:58. | |
account here as a foreign national you have to provide details. The | :11:59. | :12:03. | |
rest of the Private practice does that all the time. The problem is | :12:04. | :12:07. | |
not that we think we should be looking at it, that is legitimate. | :12:08. | :12:14. | |
It is the implementation. It is making sure my prime responsibility | :12:15. | :12:18. | |
is to the patients in front of me. Actually, hospitals may well be | :12:19. | :12:23. | |
better placed to do some of this. It is also making sure we don't start | :12:24. | :12:27. | |
assuming every foreign national is there to abuse our system. They are | :12:28. | :12:32. | |
not. Is there an element of xenophobia, as Diane Abbott | :12:33. | :12:37. | |
suggested? I think the biggest problem is expats, it is our | :12:38. | :12:40. | |
mothers, fathers, aunts and uncles who come back. We are denigrating | :12:41. | :12:46. | |
yet again immigrants who are more likely to be caring for us than | :12:47. | :12:51. | |
abusing our health care system. I do think the charge of xenophobia is | :12:52. | :12:55. | |
quite insulting. This is what the rest of the world does. If you are a | :12:56. | :13:00. | |
Brit going abroad on business or holiday to Europe elsewhere, you are | :13:01. | :13:05. | |
expected to carry your European health insurance card or have travel | :13:06. | :13:09. | |
insurance when you travel abroad. This is what we do, it is what the | :13:10. | :13:15. | |
rest of the world does, it is time the British taxpayer wasn't picking | :13:16. | :13:20. | |
up this burden. David Blunkett, isn't it true - when I go to France, | :13:21. | :13:26. | |
and I have been to a GP there, I paid ?25 to see the GP and for some | :13:27. | :13:31. | |
antibiotics for my son. Shouldn't that happen here? Well, leave aside | :13:32. | :13:38. | |
the fact that GPs don't exist in the rest of the world the same way they | :13:39. | :13:43. | |
do here, the principle is unanswerable. Of course, we should | :13:44. | :13:47. | |
do everything we can. Ten years ago I was into this as Home Secretary. | :13:48. | :13:51. | |
The Department of Health were reluctant to come up with an | :13:52. | :13:55. | |
estimate of figures then, just as we're arguing about the figures now. | :13:56. | :14:00. | |
This was part of my desire to have a clean register of those entitled to | :14:01. | :14:05. | |
work, entitled to public services, and, dare I mention it, the ID card | :14:06. | :14:10. | |
idea, which would have made it very easy to know whether someone was at | :14:11. | :14:16. | |
least practically in a position to access our public services. In the | :14:17. | :14:20. | |
end, we need good administrative systems, and Clare is right, GPs on | :14:21. | :14:31. | |
the whole registering people. What do you say to Andy who says the | :14:32. | :14:39. | |
government has released headline grabbing figures based on incomplete | :14:40. | :14:43. | |
data. A Labour MP has said we should not be arguing about the research, | :14:44. | :14:47. | |
we should just be backing the principle, as you said. Well, I | :14:48. | :14:52. | |
cannot disagree with that. I don't think Andy Burnham is wrong, it is | :14:53. | :14:57. | |
headline grabbing on a day when we have yet another immigration Bill | :14:58. | :15:03. | |
having its second reading in the House of Commons. This is what this | :15:04. | :15:08. | |
is about, and I hope we can have an all-party approach to this, which | :15:09. | :15:12. | |
is, yes, we need to get the money in because it is money that should be | :15:13. | :15:16. | |
spent on patients in our communities through our health service. What do | :15:17. | :15:20. | |
you say to that, that these are headline grabbing figures? Well, I | :15:21. | :15:28. | |
think we should have an all-party approach to this. The vast majority | :15:29. | :15:31. | |
of our electorate are telling us they want is to address this | :15:32. | :15:35. | |
problem. I was delighted a Labour member was one of the co-sponsors of | :15:36. | :15:39. | |
my Private Members' Bill on this issue last year. I think it is a | :15:40. | :15:43. | |
case of fairness to patients and to the taxpayer. When budgets are | :15:44. | :15:51. | |
tight, it is about whether the cost of care is increasing. We need to be | :15:52. | :15:55. | |
as efficient with the budget as possible. If we can recover a figure | :15:56. | :15:59. | |
of around half ?1 billion, I think that is worth pursuing. And think of | :16:00. | :16:05. | |
what that would do in terms of recruitment of doctors. | :16:06. | :16:13. | |
If you were putting a cheque into every one of the 10,000 GP | :16:14. | :16:20. | |
practices, it would cost a vast amount of money. If it is about | :16:21. | :16:25. | |
chasing all, if it is about debt collection, again, it may well cost | :16:26. | :16:31. | |
a lot of money to collect. David Dunk it says you need those new | :16:32. | :16:35. | |
administrative services. -- David Blunkett. We are there to treat and | :16:36. | :16:44. | |
care for patients, not to ask them for their eligibility to health | :16:45. | :16:48. | |
care. Can I move on to something. The go home vans which were driving | :16:49. | :16:55. | |
around the inner London are is targeting illegal in the is. One | :16:56. | :16:59. | |
Tory MP said they were proud of those fans but they will not go | :17:00. | :17:05. | |
ahead. They failed. The evidence did not show that they made any | :17:06. | :17:10. | |
difference to a sensible or rational approach to saying, if you are not | :17:11. | :17:14. | |
entitled to be here, if you are not entitled to draw on a fix, then you | :17:15. | :17:22. | |
should go home. What do you think? I think in theory it is a thing worth | :17:23. | :17:32. | |
looking at. If you go into a shop there are notices saying if you | :17:33. | :17:36. | |
shoplift you will be prosecuted. So there should be a sign saying if you | :17:37. | :17:41. | |
are illegal, you will be deported. But those vans made people less | :17:42. | :17:49. | |
willing to report people than more willing. As a citizen I am ashamed | :17:50. | :17:53. | |
that we have fans like that which frightened people. I am ashamed that | :17:54. | :17:59. | |
my tax payers money is used for that sort of advertising. Even the | :18:00. | :18:04. | |
illegal immigrants? They are frightening vans. They are drug | :18:05. | :18:08. | |
trade and I am sure there are better ways of addressing illegal | :18:09. | :18:12. | |
immigrants. Well, they will not be around any more. Thank you. | :18:13. | :18:16. | |
Now, President Hollande of France told President Obama last night that | :18:17. | :18:19. | |
spying on millions of French telephone calls is not the behaviour | :18:20. | :18:22. | |
of a friend and ally. Revelations that the US National | :18:23. | :18:25. | |
Security Agency or NSA was eavesdropping on the communications | :18:26. | :18:28. | |
of members of the public around the world were contained in documents | :18:29. | :18:31. | |
leaked by former NSA contractor Edward Snowden and published in the | :18:32. | :18:38. | |
UK by the Guardian newspaper. But MPs here, including the Prime | :18:39. | :18:40. | |
Minister, have criticised the Guardian, accusing them of | :18:41. | :18:45. | |
compromising national security. The backbench Conservative MP Julian | :18:46. | :18:47. | |
Smith, is holding a debate in parliament this afternoon. He's in | :18:48. | :18:51. | |
central Lobby as is Julian Huppert who has defended the newspaper's | :18:52. | :18:59. | |
right to publish. Welcome to both of you. Julian Smith, you say the | :19:00. | :19:06. | |
Guardian has crossed the line between responsible journalism and | :19:07. | :19:09. | |
seriously risking national security. Wide? I think there is a | :19:10. | :19:14. | |
darker side to this whole story which has seen one Briton's leading | :19:15. | :19:21. | |
newspapers sent highly controversial information, potentially including | :19:22. | :19:27. | |
details of people who have protected us, has sent those documents | :19:28. | :19:32. | |
overseas, stored in a way which is incredibly vulnerable to terrorist | :19:33. | :19:37. | |
infiltration and really providing to the world and ability to find out | :19:38. | :19:44. | |
the deepest detail of our intelligence operations. Julian | :19:45. | :19:48. | |
Huppert, you can respond directly to that and the Prime Minister has said | :19:49. | :19:52. | |
it has damaged our national security and it is a gift to the terrorists. | :19:53. | :19:57. | |
I have not seen anything which was published which would be a gift to | :19:58. | :20:01. | |
terrorists. They have not published names and details. They have raised | :20:02. | :20:05. | |
an important public debate. I think it is important that people know not | :20:06. | :20:09. | |
the details of what is being done, but that there is widespread | :20:10. | :20:12. | |
surveillance so we can have a chance to think about what is that balance. | :20:13. | :20:17. | |
We know GCHQ and others play a critical role. They have to do that | :20:18. | :20:20. | |
with the consent of the British public. I will be asking later on | :20:21. | :20:25. | |
for a debate in Parliament about this issue and what is OK and what | :20:26. | :20:32. | |
is not. There is a public interest case because people did not realise | :20:33. | :20:37. | |
the content of e-mails or private correspondence was being looked at. | :20:38. | :20:43. | |
There is absolutely the need for responsible journalism in this area. | :20:44. | :20:49. | |
The Guardian is revealing something we did not know. The Guardian | :20:50. | :20:54. | |
overstepped the line. Why did they publish details of internal | :20:55. | :20:59. | |
communications, showing the gay and lesbian clubs which GCHQ staff | :21:00. | :21:07. | |
belong to is that why did they showed PowerPoint presentations and | :21:08. | :21:12. | |
send those allegedly overseas? It is that question which needs answering. | :21:13. | :21:16. | |
I accept the public interest and having a debate. I accept we should | :21:17. | :21:21. | |
monitor our intelligence services. But the Guardian has gone beyond | :21:22. | :21:28. | |
this. Do you think there is a case to answer that the Guardian has in a | :21:29. | :21:33. | |
way done what it is accusing governments of doing and it has in a | :21:34. | :21:41. | |
blanket way published secret files? The Guardian has chosen carefully | :21:42. | :21:45. | |
what to publish and what not to. What about the information about | :21:46. | :21:52. | |
GCHQ individuals? There is not much individual information. The Guardian | :21:53. | :21:58. | |
was careful about that. Julian talked about the PowerPoint slides. | :21:59. | :22:01. | |
That was the key information which let us know how much of this there | :22:02. | :22:05. | |
was. If the Guardian had published things saying we have seen stuff but | :22:06. | :22:12. | |
cannot tell you about it, people would be criticising them for that. | :22:13. | :22:16. | |
There will be careful discussion about that. I know the Guardian has | :22:17. | :22:21. | |
spoken lawyers about this. I have not seen anything, they have opened | :22:22. | :22:26. | |
up the public debate which is essential. We have to make sure we | :22:27. | :22:34. | |
can trust GCHQ and other agencies. This debate is helpful. Do you trust | :22:35. | :22:41. | |
GCHQ? Not at the expense of national security. The Guardian has a major | :22:42. | :22:46. | |
stain on it because it has crossed that bridge between responsible | :22:47. | :22:49. | |
journalism and protect the lives of the families and the people who have | :22:50. | :22:53. | |
protected us for many, many years and it is that I want to highlight | :22:54. | :22:57. | |
in Parliament today. I understand why your concern didn't if they had | :22:58. | :23:02. | |
published list of agents I would join you in that case but they did | :23:03. | :23:07. | |
not do that. There are many politicians and people involved in | :23:08. | :23:10. | |
intelligence agencies who think it does risk security. There will be | :23:11. | :23:15. | |
people who think it is not worth doing anything which sacrifices our | :23:16. | :23:18. | |
national security when having a debate about the balance between | :23:19. | :23:21. | |
freedom, privacy and national security. I think the best way to | :23:22. | :23:30. | |
strengthen National Security Agency to have an open discussion so that | :23:31. | :23:34. | |
people are comfortable and they are doing the right things. It has been | :23:35. | :23:39. | |
said that they need to get engaged and reassure the public. To define | :23:40. | :23:44. | |
everything is top secret does not provide that security. President | :23:45. | :23:49. | |
Hollande is very unhappy about this. He has expressed his deep | :23:50. | :23:54. | |
disapproval to President Obama about the National Security Agency in the | :23:55. | :23:59. | |
USA recorded 70 million French phone calls and one month. They said that | :24:00. | :24:05. | |
as infringing the rights of French citizens. I have not challenge the | :24:06. | :24:12. | |
Guardian to reveal information in a responsible way. What I do say is we | :24:13. | :24:18. | |
stand here throughout the world with detailed information about GCHQ and | :24:19. | :24:23. | |
our intelligence services in highly vulnerable storage, looked after by | :24:24. | :24:27. | |
the Guardian's journalists. That is wrong and that wrong has to be | :24:28. | :24:33. | |
righted. Thank you both of you. David Blunkett, should we worry | :24:34. | :24:38. | |
about National is the two with the publication of these files? Yes, we | :24:39. | :24:44. | |
should. The intelligence and Security committee has been given | :24:45. | :24:47. | |
new powers. They have decided they will investigate and take a look and | :24:48. | :24:52. | |
come back to us. That is really important that we do not rely on the | :24:53. | :24:56. | |
Guardian or any other newspaper to actually protect us in terms of our | :24:57. | :25:03. | |
freedoms being eroded. We would not have had that debate without it. | :25:04. | :25:08. | |
Having a free press is really important but having national | :25:09. | :25:11. | |
systems and processes to protect us from the closure -- disclosure of | :25:12. | :25:23. | |
information which has been stolen, is a bad idea. We cannot have an | :25:24. | :25:28. | |
individual editor who is acting irresponsibly. I think the editor of | :25:29. | :25:33. | |
the Guardian has. He is being judge and jury. That is not the way the | :25:34. | :25:37. | |
world can work. Incidentally, I love the French suggestion that everybody | :25:38. | :25:44. | |
knows they are up to it as well. Everybody is up to it or that is the | :25:45. | :25:48. | |
feeling that there is a double standard, if you like. On the issue | :25:49. | :25:53. | |
of the press, there will be a fear that an attempt is being made by the | :25:54. | :25:59. | |
press to silence these issues. That is why they have opened the debate. | :26:00. | :26:04. | |
That is why this discussion which you have just had is very | :26:05. | :26:09. | |
important. On the one hand, we do not want people stealing material | :26:10. | :26:13. | |
and putting it out in the ether and undermining the very protection of | :26:14. | :26:16. | |
our well-being. That is what the intelligence community is doing. On | :26:17. | :26:22. | |
the other hand, actually suppressing things which we should legitimately | :26:23. | :26:26. | |
know is going on. Not just the detail but the process. Do we want | :26:27. | :26:30. | |
that in our democracy. I think we do but we need to carry people with us. | :26:31. | :26:35. | |
Thank you. Now, Free Schools are a flagship | :26:36. | :26:38. | |
part of the Government's education policy. These new institutions are | :26:39. | :26:42. | |
free of local authority control, free not to follow the national | :26:43. | :26:45. | |
curriculum, free to feed children what they want and free to hire | :26:46. | :26:48. | |
teachers who don't have a teaching qualification. It was a surprise | :26:49. | :26:52. | |
then that at the weekend the Deputy Prime Minister suggested that they | :26:53. | :26:55. | |
shouldn't have some of these freedoms, and specifically that the | :26:56. | :26:58. | |
Liberal Democrats wanted teachers at these schools to have Qualified | :26:59. | :27:02. | |
Teacher Status. It's caused rather a rift within the coalition and | :27:03. | :27:04. | |
yesterday afternoon the Business Secretary, Vince Cable, was asked to | :27:05. | :27:11. | |
clarify the Lib Dem position. The original idea that we voted for, the | :27:12. | :27:16. | |
assumption was they were properly qualified teachers and that seems to | :27:17. | :27:20. | |
have changed. We are making it clear in the next Parliament, we want a | :27:21. | :27:25. | |
proper commitment to train teachers. That is what it beggars emphasising | :27:26. | :27:29. | |
and I totally support him. We're joined now by the deputy | :27:30. | :27:32. | |
headmaster of the independent school, Brighton College, John | :27:33. | :27:35. | |
Weeks. They also sponsor an academy in East London. And former education | :27:36. | :27:39. | |
secretary, David Blunkett, is still here. John Weeks, first of all, are | :27:40. | :27:46. | |
you worried by the comments from Nick Clegg about teacher training | :27:47. | :27:53. | |
and the standard of school meals. I think I am worried about it, yes. We | :27:54. | :28:00. | |
have got no objections to teachers who have a training qualification. I | :28:01. | :28:04. | |
think there is a great worth and value in those qualifications that | :28:05. | :28:14. | |
go on at university. Indeed, I have a qualification, a PGCE myself. I am | :28:15. | :28:17. | |
worried that there is a call for them to be mandatory for all | :28:18. | :28:20. | |
teachers. We have very successfully inducted a lot of unqualified | :28:21. | :28:26. | |
teachers into both our schools in Brighton, the independent school in | :28:27. | :28:30. | |
Brighton, and indeed up at the London Academy where over half of | :28:31. | :28:34. | |
the 38 staff do not have an official teaching qualification. And yet, | :28:35. | :28:40. | |
they teach very successfully, both here in Brighton and up in London. | :28:41. | :28:45. | |
So, the comments by Nick Clegg, where does that leave you and your | :28:46. | :28:51. | |
teachers? I think that needs to be looked at again. We have done a lot | :28:52. | :28:55. | |
of research in Brighton and around the world about what are the most | :28:56. | :29:01. | |
important factors in a really top education. And without exception, | :29:02. | :29:09. | |
the country and institutions around the world -- the countries and | :29:10. | :29:13. | |
institutions around the world which have the most successful education | :29:14. | :29:17. | |
cultures, take the top 10% of graduates from their universities. | :29:18. | :29:21. | |
We find here and in our recruitment both at the London Academy and in | :29:22. | :29:25. | |
Brighton, we recruit those teachers who are the most highly qualified in | :29:26. | :29:31. | |
their subjects. Just hold on one minute and get a response from David | :29:32. | :29:34. | |
Luckett. Do you think it is important that teachers in schools | :29:35. | :29:40. | |
in England should have qualified teacher status? Yes, I do. I am a | :29:41. | :29:46. | |
qualified teacher. There is no contradiction between recruiting the | :29:47. | :29:49. | |
best graduates in the country and then ensuring that they are trained. | :29:50. | :29:54. | |
That is why I introduced those years ago Teach First, to get the | :29:55. | :29:58. | |
graduates in and teach them on the job. We have teaching schools | :29:59. | :30:03. | |
Alliance programmes now which teach youngsters in the school. But at the | :30:04. | :30:07. | |
end of the day, knowing your subject is not enough. Being able to | :30:08. | :30:10. | |
translate and transmit that information and engage young people | :30:11. | :30:13. | |
and learning is what it is all about. Brighton College can do | :30:14. | :30:18. | |
whatever they like, they are private school. The parents will hold them | :30:19. | :30:25. | |
to account. I am not against having people working to train teachers, | :30:26. | :30:29. | |
instruct does in particular areas, teaching assistants are commonplace. | :30:30. | :30:34. | |
It is a question whether the clash should be supervised -- it is a | :30:35. | :30:39. | |
question whether the clasps should be supervised by summer with | :30:40. | :30:44. | |
pedagogic knowledge. Otherwise lets her brain surgeons from a technician | :30:45. | :30:50. | |
who was pretty good at managing something entirely different. | :30:51. | :30:54. | |
Although as John Weeks was saying, if these people are highly qualified | :30:55. | :30:59. | |
in their subject, are very bright and have communication skills, do | :31:00. | :31:09. | |
you need a specific qualification? I think top graduates can be brought | :31:10. | :31:13. | |
in immediately and encouraged and supported to remain where that is | :31:14. | :31:19. | |
appropriate. But in the end, I had teachers who knew their subject | :31:20. | :31:22. | |
extremely well and were absolutely useless at being able to | :31:23. | :31:26. | |
communicate. That is no good to any of us. What do you say to that? | :31:27. | :31:31. | |
You've got to be able to handle the class and go through a process by | :31:32. | :31:35. | |
which you are taught how to teach children. Yes, we have a | :31:36. | :31:45. | |
comprehensive, thorough mentoring and support process, particularly | :31:46. | :31:52. | |
through the first year, where all the new teachers have weekly | :31:53. | :31:54. | |
meetings with the heads of department, they are observed, they | :31:55. | :31:57. | |
have undergoing pupil questionnaires. Is that the same as | :31:58. | :32:04. | |
having a qualification? Yes, Brighton College is an independent | :32:05. | :32:08. | |
school where you are able to do that, but in terms of the three | :32:09. | :32:15. | |
schools, do you think Nick Clegg is right, David Blunkett is right, they | :32:16. | :32:20. | |
must have this qualified teacher status? I don't think so. I think | :32:21. | :32:25. | |
the support we provide in Brighton is perfectly sufficient. We've taken | :32:26. | :32:32. | |
graduates and also more experienced people from industry, we've got a | :32:33. | :32:39. | |
nuclear physicist teaching us, an aid worker teaching in the geography | :32:40. | :32:42. | |
department, and I do wonder whether, if they had to go through that extra | :32:43. | :32:50. | |
year, would they have come into teaching at all? That would be a | :32:51. | :32:56. | |
shame. It's a terrible thing that we should ask people to be qualified | :32:57. | :32:59. | |
when we asked the rest of the world to do just that | :33:00. | :33:36. | |
you understand people will worry and they may use that argument? I don't | :33:37. | :33:38. | |
think so. There are many headmasters out there without qualifications who | :33:39. | :33:48. | |
are perfectly successful. Over the last few years we have failed if you | :33:49. | :33:53. | |
teachers on the probation, as many with qualifications as without. I | :33:54. | :34:01. | |
don't see a qualification. It is simply whether they are a good | :34:02. | :34:06. | |
teacher or not. Well, we do train teachers and their dropout very | :34:07. | :34:10. | |
quickly after qualifying. We need to work out the career path so that | :34:11. | :34:14. | |
young people coming in really do know that if they are going to get | :34:15. | :34:20. | |
the necessary qualification and body of knowledge to teach that they | :34:21. | :34:25. | |
actually stick with us. What about Labour's position on free school | :34:26. | :34:30. | |
's? Labour has been accused of changing its mind. Tristram Hunt has | :34:31. | :34:35. | |
had to come in and retract from his comments that free schools were just | :34:36. | :34:40. | |
for yummy mummies. Now, he is all for them as long as there is need. | :34:41. | :34:46. | |
Where is Labour on free schools? I'm undertaking a review with Ed | :34:47. | :34:49. | |
Miliband and Tristram Hunt on the way to go forwards. I will report on | :34:50. | :34:59. | |
that next year. Just answer your question, 13 years ago, there was a | :35:00. | :35:08. | |
parent led school in Dulwich where there was a shortage of secondary | :35:09. | :35:12. | |
places. Parents wanted to be involved and I saw nothing wrong | :35:13. | :35:16. | |
with that. That is what Tristram Hunt said. I think we can square | :35:17. | :35:23. | |
this circle, we just need a bit of common sense. Pupils have an | :35:24. | :35:27. | |
entitlement. That entitlement should apply whichever status of school, | :35:28. | :35:31. | |
which aired the area you live in. That should be about the best | :35:32. | :35:35. | |
possible teaching in the classroom and the best leadership in the | :35:36. | :35:40. | |
school, and people who are held to account. If you can square that | :35:41. | :35:44. | |
circle, we will get back contract, rather than believing free schools | :35:45. | :35:49. | |
are ideological and the end of the game. Actually, the status and | :35:50. | :35:54. | |
structure of schools is all about the standards and delivering to the | :35:55. | :35:58. | |
pupils. Just a reminder, three schools are in England only. -- free | :35:59. | :36:06. | |
schools. So, Britain is getting a new nuclear | :36:07. | :36:10. | |
power station, but it won't be British owned or designed, so should | :36:11. | :36:13. | |
we be concerned about the state of our engineering sector? According to | :36:14. | :36:16. | |
the Institution of Engineering and Technology, we should be - they say | :36:17. | :36:20. | |
there is a skills crisis in the sector and are also concerned by the | :36:21. | :36:23. | |
lack of female engineers. Currently just 7% of engineers are female. So | :36:24. | :36:27. | |
how can we encourage more girls to consider engineering as a career? | :36:28. | :36:30. | |
Here are the views of some students in Sheffield. I like | :36:31. | :36:36. | |
problem-solving, which is what engineering is about. I thought | :36:37. | :36:40. | |
engineering was about cars and lifts. But we do code breaking here. | :36:41. | :36:45. | |
I really like that. Everyone was saying it was for boys but I wanted | :36:46. | :36:52. | |
to see what it was about. On TV, you watch programmes and it is always | :36:53. | :36:58. | |
boys. I think the key is information. I think a lot of people | :36:59. | :37:01. | |
push other occupations forward more than others. I think if there were | :37:02. | :37:07. | |
more successful role models in engineering, people would look up to | :37:08. | :37:10. | |
it. It would be something to aspire to. | :37:11. | :37:14. | |
I'm joined now by Roma Agrawal, a structural engineer who worked on | :37:15. | :37:18. | |
the Shard, and Peter Luff MP, who is campaigning for more action to | :37:19. | :37:20. | |
encourage young people in to engineering and science. What | :37:21. | :37:27. | |
attracted you to engineering? It's such a fun profession. It is | :37:28. | :37:32. | |
creative, collaborative. I love making things. It probably started | :37:33. | :37:36. | |
with my love of putting Lego together as a young child. Making | :37:37. | :37:41. | |
that leap to building the Shard is something we need to make. I would | :37:42. | :37:50. | |
love to think my children could become engineers. Did you realise | :37:51. | :37:53. | |
you were going into a profession where there were hardly any women? I | :37:54. | :37:58. | |
actually studied physics and switched to engineering and | :37:59. | :38:00. | |
afterwards when I became more aware of it. It never bothered me there | :38:01. | :38:07. | |
were not many women. Why don't we have more women like Roma in | :38:08. | :38:14. | |
engineering? Well, firstly, it is important to recognise we need more | :38:15. | :38:18. | |
engineers. But we certainly need more women. The evidence is, a lot | :38:19. | :38:26. | |
of gender at -- stereotyping takes place at school. Coeducational | :38:27. | :38:32. | |
schools in particular do not have more girls doing physics. Whether a | :38:33. | :38:38. | |
lot of girls in your class doing physics? I was in a year of 120 | :38:39. | :38:44. | |
girls, it was a girls school. There were 14 of us doing physics. I'm | :38:45. | :38:48. | |
pleased to say I went back recently and that has now doubled to 30, so | :38:49. | :38:53. | |
that things seem to be looking up. There clearly are not enough girls | :38:54. | :38:58. | |
studying physics. I wonder if it is difficult to connect where physics | :38:59. | :39:02. | |
will lead you. Is that not the industry 's fault? Don't they need | :39:03. | :39:08. | |
to do a bit more in terms of sending people like Roma out to say, look at | :39:09. | :39:13. | |
me. I do a job in engineering, and I am just like you. You are right. | :39:14. | :39:19. | |
Engineering UK is bringing together a complex package of schemes, that | :39:20. | :39:24. | |
they are not doing enough to say, this is an exciting career. I think | :39:25. | :39:29. | |
girls need to be reached at primary school and told what a great career | :39:30. | :39:33. | |
it is. Because it is a good job. Particularly when we just come | :39:34. | :39:37. | |
through a recession, if you are a graduate trying to get into media, | :39:38. | :39:43. | |
you might find it easier to get into engineering, if you'd chosen that | :39:44. | :39:48. | |
career path. Yes, I think people with logical minds who are good at | :39:49. | :39:54. | |
problem-solving are in high demand in any profession. So engineering | :39:55. | :39:57. | |
graduates are snapped up by other professions as well. Do you think | :39:58. | :40:02. | |
Labour missed this? We know now there is a shortage of engineers. We | :40:03. | :40:07. | |
have a great heritage of engineering and not enough was done to push it | :40:08. | :40:11. | |
as a subject, particularly for women? Well, there were a number of | :40:12. | :40:17. | |
schools which chose engineering as a specialism. That then eroded. That's | :40:18. | :40:24. | |
the problem with the education system, we go in waves. And the | :40:25. | :40:28. | |
three of us are in total agreement on this, it's nice for once. Physics | :40:29. | :40:49. | |
is a good route to engineering. The University of technology, I'm fully | :40:50. | :40:58. | |
in favour of them. So there are a number of routes there. I got this a | :40:59. | :41:03. | |
long time ago. My then wife, when we were camping with our small | :41:04. | :41:07. | |
children, used to open the back of the car and play at very high | :41:08. | :41:11. | |
volume, Monica wants to be an engineer it. I think they were | :41:12. | :41:21. | |
getting the message. As Roma says, engineering is fun and we need to | :41:22. | :41:26. | |
get industry into schools, using the new design and technology curriculum | :41:27. | :41:31. | |
to say, hey, you can use these skills. What skills do women bring | :41:32. | :41:38. | |
to engineering? More creativity, more team work. Females tend to be | :41:39. | :41:47. | |
better at that. We need more women in engineering for the engineering | :41:48. | :41:52. | |
companies. What about mentors, that is the problem, isn't it? Mentors at | :41:53. | :41:58. | |
all levels. A lot of women going to engineering companies and don't go | :41:59. | :42:03. | |
on. They find it too much of a male environment. We need ambassadors | :42:04. | :42:06. | |
going into primary schools and saying, you can do this. There is a | :42:07. | :42:15. | |
centre at the University of Sheffield working with Boeing. I've | :42:16. | :42:20. | |
met the people on apprenticeships and they are not entirely male but | :42:21. | :42:24. | |
they are largely, so we need to work on that. That is going back to the | :42:25. | :42:29. | |
issue of schools. Why are girls giving up sciences so early on? Is | :42:30. | :42:34. | |
it because they are so difficult? Girls can handle that, can't they? | :42:35. | :42:38. | |
Yes, and I think one thing that is being brought to write is we are | :42:39. | :42:46. | |
trying to show girls that studying physics and maths can lead to this. | :42:47. | :42:50. | |
We've had 14-year-olds and 17-year-olds coming to our office | :42:51. | :42:54. | |
this year and hopefully open their eyes to the whole world of | :42:55. | :42:58. | |
possibilities with a physics GCSE or A-level. It is getting better. About | :42:59. | :43:05. | |
as many girls took GCSE physics as boys. The key now is to get them | :43:06. | :43:13. | |
taking A-levels as well. You are no longer up to your elbows in oil as | :43:14. | :43:17. | |
an engineer. The world has completely transformed. Yes, we | :43:18. | :43:23. | |
spend a lot of time with architects and sketches, saying, how are we | :43:24. | :43:28. | |
going to make a building stand up, for example. It is very | :43:29. | :43:33. | |
collaborative and creative. It is an exciting profession. The image of | :43:34. | :43:41. | |
engineering is out of date. If you want to make a life-saving device, | :43:42. | :43:49. | |
you need an engineering education. So the idea of being a geek, is that | :43:50. | :43:56. | |
wrong? It is a stereotype. I'm an engineer. You don't look like a | :43:57. | :44:00. | |
geek! That's the sort of thing we need to do. Have you got a benchmark | :44:01. | :44:07. | |
the need to reach? Physics is the fourth most popular subject the boys | :44:08. | :44:13. | |
and 19th girls. I would like to see more girls taking it at A-level. | :44:14. | :44:17. | |
Then they can decide what to do. How many women engineers do you think we | :44:18. | :44:23. | |
need? We are 7% at present. France has 22%. We should be up 50%. It can | :44:24. | :44:33. | |
be done. I've seen it. Do you think Michael Gove values engineering in | :44:34. | :44:37. | |
the way it should be valued? I think it is encouraging. There has been a | :44:38. | :44:43. | |
review on engineering skills which is being published in two weeks' | :44:44. | :44:48. | |
time. But we cannot let this go, it's got to be achieved. There is a | :44:49. | :44:54. | |
lot to do, but I'm very optimistic. A third of our graduate intake last | :44:55. | :44:58. | |
year was female, so things are looking up. Thank you both very | :44:59. | :45:05. | |
much. Now one of the UK's success stories | :45:06. | :45:10. | |
is our creative industries. Our film, television, publishing and | :45:11. | :45:12. | |
design companies create over one and half million jobs and bring in ?36 | :45:13. | :45:16. | |
billion pounds a year. But despite this they are vulnerable to piracy | :45:17. | :45:19. | |
and lose millions of pounds annually. The recent Emmy success of | :45:20. | :45:24. | |
Breaking Bad was partly owed to the illegal download and a recent OFCOM | :45:25. | :45:27. | |
report said that almost a quarter of all downloads in the UK are of | :45:28. | :45:31. | |
pirated content. Well, Pete Wishart thinks it's time that something | :45:32. | :45:35. | |
should be done about it. This is his soapbox. | :45:36. | :45:53. | |
That is me with the Scottish band Runrig performing on Top Of The | :45:54. | :46:04. | |
Pops. Our industries are protected and properly rewarded for the | :46:05. | :46:10. | |
fantastic work they produce. Being creative is something we do very, | :46:11. | :46:14. | |
very well. Whether it is film, music, publishing or design, the UK | :46:15. | :46:19. | |
is in the top three of practically every cultural sector. 1.5 million | :46:20. | :46:23. | |
people work within the creative industries and that generates | :46:24. | :46:27. | |
something like ?35 billion to the economy. For all the success, these | :46:28. | :46:32. | |
remain particularly fragile industries, that is because of the | :46:33. | :46:37. | |
online changing digital environment where standing still for even one | :46:38. | :46:41. | |
minute is not an option. Intellectual and property rights | :46:42. | :46:47. | |
underpins the success and ensures the artist, creator and inventor are | :46:48. | :46:52. | |
properly rewarded for the work they produce. But sometimes intellectual | :46:53. | :46:55. | |
property rights are seen as a problem, something which is not | :46:56. | :47:01. | |
respected, particularly in the online environment. If I walked into | :47:02. | :47:05. | |
a hardware store and helped myself to the goods on offer I would be | :47:06. | :47:11. | |
arrested, charged and convicted. But for some reason it seems to be | :47:12. | :47:17. | |
okayed to take the rights of work online for nothing. This risks | :47:18. | :47:24. | |
investment and jobs. We have got to start to get it through to people | :47:25. | :47:29. | |
that taking something for nothing online is the same as taking | :47:30. | :47:33. | |
something for nothing on the high Street. The IP rights are important | :47:34. | :47:38. | |
property rights which protect the artist and creator and ensure they | :47:39. | :47:40. | |
are rewarded for the works they produce. In the last Parliament, all | :47:41. | :47:46. | |
parties agreed the Digital economy act and now is the time to get it | :47:47. | :47:52. | |
into law, to ensure we can educate the public about illegal downloading | :47:53. | :47:57. | |
and piracy. We have perhaps lost a generation to illegal downloading. | :47:58. | :48:04. | |
We cannot afford to lose another. And Pete Wishart joins us now. We | :48:05. | :48:11. | |
are hoping to be joined by the Labour MP Tom Watson who is in | :48:12. | :48:15. | |
Birmingham. Apparently we can talk to him in a moment. Is illegal | :48:16. | :48:20. | |
downloading really that much of a problem? Yes, it is. It is a real | :48:21. | :48:25. | |
issue for our creative industries. So much is lost to illegal | :48:26. | :48:31. | |
downloading and has to be challenged. We all agreed to the | :48:32. | :48:35. | |
Digital economy act in the last Parliament. So we can start educate | :48:36. | :48:41. | |
some of our young people around the issues. A recent OFCOM report said | :48:42. | :48:46. | |
it was a minority activity with 2% of users accounting for three | :48:47. | :48:51. | |
quarters of all downloads. The music industry reckons it loses something | :48:52. | :48:55. | |
like 200 million pounds a year. The film industry has it worse. These | :48:56. | :49:01. | |
are huge figures. They cost jobs and investment. We have to make sure we | :49:02. | :49:06. | |
do something to challenge that. There are legitimate places | :49:07. | :49:09. | |
available where people can get the product legally. We have to make | :49:10. | :49:12. | |
sure people can be directed towards that. We have fantastic industries | :49:13. | :49:18. | |
and we lead the world when it comes to being creative. We should make | :49:19. | :49:23. | |
sure we continue to develop that. Tom Watson, something needs to be | :49:24. | :49:28. | |
done otherwise it is risking our creative industries? I agree that | :49:29. | :49:31. | |
our creative industries are the jewel in the crown of the country. | :49:32. | :49:36. | |
But I am afraid the remedy for the digital Economy act, when it comes | :49:37. | :49:40. | |
to film and music, it is a flawed act. It was railroaded through by | :49:41. | :49:46. | |
Peter Mandelson in the dying days of the last government. It did not go | :49:47. | :49:50. | |
to committee and had no public scrutiny. It was appallingly doesn't | :49:51. | :49:58. | |
live -- delivered to Parliament. But Pete is right. We do need to deal | :49:59. | :50:05. | |
with the super pirates that undermine the market. But clamping | :50:06. | :50:11. | |
down on exit downloaders, I think is a mistake. It is over burdensome. It | :50:12. | :50:16. | |
probably will not have any support out there, will it and the act is | :50:17. | :50:22. | |
flawed? All the parties agreed to it apart from the Liberals. It was | :50:23. | :50:26. | |
designed to ensure that we could educate young people. What they will | :50:27. | :50:31. | |
get is notifications, a nice letter explaining that piracy and | :50:32. | :50:37. | |
downloading is going on in this particular household and it will | :50:38. | :50:40. | |
address it to see how they can deal with this and make sure they are | :50:41. | :50:44. | |
directed towards legitimate site where they can acquire the wonderful | :50:45. | :50:49. | |
products in illegal way. What is wrong with that, Tom Watson? You say | :50:50. | :50:54. | |
it is a sledgehammer to deal with this but how else do you do it? | :50:55. | :50:59. | |
Digital sales of music grew 12%, in fact vinyl sales of music group for | :51:00. | :51:06. | |
a large amount the music industry has failed to deal with the advent | :51:07. | :51:12. | |
of the Internet. They are reaping what they sowed ten years ago. That | :51:13. | :51:17. | |
OFCOM report you talked about, 85% of us bathe the law when it comes to | :51:18. | :51:23. | |
downloading. What they showed was is the letters Pete talk about would | :51:24. | :51:28. | |
not deter infringers from continuing to download. I think there needs to | :51:29. | :51:33. | |
be a different way of doing this. My view would be organisations like | :51:34. | :51:37. | |
Google should use some of the tax money that they are not paying into | :51:38. | :51:41. | |
the Exchequer to really clamp down on the pirate sites which market and | :51:42. | :51:45. | |
make a great deal of money by enhancing piracy, rather than | :51:46. | :51:49. | |
looking at consumers. Some of the artists out there, there is a great | :51:50. | :51:54. | |
musician who has a new album out next Monday, he has released a | :51:55. | :51:58. | |
single for free on YouTube today to try and build that new interest in | :51:59. | :52:02. | |
his music. That is how some of these great creators are going. Isn't that | :52:03. | :52:08. | |
how new careers are made. The problem is, you might damage some of | :52:09. | :52:11. | |
that by introducing what Tom Watson believes is heavy-handed | :52:12. | :52:16. | |
legislation. Shouldn't the onus be put on the companies out there? | :52:17. | :52:22. | |
There is a big obligation to kill Elidh when it comes to piracy. If | :52:23. | :52:27. | |
you do a Google search you will be directed to any number of sites | :52:28. | :52:35. | |
where you will be able to download illegal products. We have industries | :52:36. | :52:40. | |
to support here. It is not just the artists, it is the make up artists, | :52:41. | :52:44. | |
the technicians, the studio engineers. These are fantastic | :52:45. | :52:49. | |
industries we should be proud of. They are telling us they are hurting | :52:50. | :52:54. | |
because of this. We will lose our position in the top three in the | :52:55. | :52:59. | |
sectors around the world. David Blunkett, whose side are you one? We | :53:00. | :53:07. | |
are in a real mess. Was it a shabby piece of legislation? It was not | :53:08. | :53:13. | |
brilliant. The bulk of the act has a good intent which is to say what was | :53:14. | :53:19. | |
illegal, that is theft, in the normal past world should still be | :53:20. | :53:23. | |
left in this digital world. But I agree entirely with the idea that we | :53:24. | :53:29. | |
should tackle the search engines and the piracy as well as warning just | :53:30. | :53:32. | |
individuals that they are actually thieving. The fact that it is the | :53:33. | :53:37. | |
Internet does not mean it is different. It is leaving. In the | :53:38. | :53:42. | |
meantime, the industry which has been squealing about this for many | :53:43. | :53:46. | |
years could diminish? That is not the case. We have more and more | :53:47. | :53:52. | |
people consuming music, literature, art, because of the Internet rather | :53:53. | :53:58. | |
than not because of it. I think the big publishing interests which are | :53:59. | :54:02. | |
backed up by huge lobbyists are threatened, their business model is | :54:03. | :54:05. | |
threatened but new creators entering the market, small musicians, this is | :54:06. | :54:11. | |
a great opportunity. Thank you. Now, what is it about education? | :54:12. | :54:17. | |
Politicians who meddle in it seem to attract an inordinate amount of | :54:18. | :54:19. | |
abuse from the teaching profession and others. The current incumbent at | :54:20. | :54:22. | |
the Department for Education, Michael Gove, has an enthusiastic | :54:23. | :54:26. | |
club of detractors. One Brighton woman is even selling a "Michael | :54:27. | :54:29. | |
Gove Voodoo Pincushion." She says, "it's crocheted by hand and mentally | :54:30. | :54:32. | |
infused with mean thoughts about Michael Gove." Right. But Michael | :54:33. | :54:38. | |
Gove is not alone. Our guest of the day, David Blunkett, may not have | :54:39. | :54:41. | |
had his likeness reproduced as a pin cushion but will remember jeers as | :54:42. | :54:45. | |
well as cheers in his time as Education Secretary. Here's a | :54:46. | :54:48. | |
reminder of what those with the education brief have had to put up | :54:49. | :54:50. | |
with. Most parents can afford to provide | :54:51. | :55:03. | |
their own children with milk or give them money to buy milk. | :55:04. | :55:16. | |
For goodness sake, what is the profession coming to, if I have come | :55:17. | :55:23. | |
here to say things are improving and you heckle me. | :55:24. | :55:34. | |
If people find it stressful that I am demanding higher standards I am | :55:35. | :55:40. | |
not going to stop demanding higher standards. | :55:41. | :55:48. | |
It is a tough job but somebody has got to do it. Our Education | :55:49. | :55:56. | |
Secretary is always hated? If you are doing the job rigourously, you | :55:57. | :56:03. | |
will always upset somebody. Everybody? We did not upset | :56:04. | :56:08. | |
everybody. The worst was when I went to the Association of teachers and | :56:09. | :56:11. | |
lecturers and they had agreed that they would not say a word. Nobody | :56:12. | :56:17. | |
clapped, nobody laughed, nobody booed. It was absolutely deadly. | :56:18. | :56:22. | |
Anyway, I am on good terms with them now. The behaviour has improved, | :56:23. | :56:27. | |
that the Lord, because I said, what sort of example is this for pupils | :56:28. | :56:31. | |
is it when you are behaving like this? We can have a disagreement but | :56:32. | :56:36. | |
we do not have to do it in this way. Sometimes it was good, sometimes it | :56:37. | :56:41. | |
was excruciating. My successor, Estelle Morris and then Charles | :56:42. | :56:45. | |
Clarke, Charles decided he would not turn up at all... Do you think that | :56:46. | :56:53. | |
was right? It was easier life. But you have not gone into it for an | :56:54. | :56:58. | |
easy life. Do you have sympathy for Michael Gove, pin cushions and all? | :56:59. | :57:02. | |
I have sympathy if he gets abused but I do not have sympathy with the | :57:03. | :57:07. | |
ideological part of his agenda. We both want to improve standards. | :57:08. | :57:15. | |
Maybe it is because he is doing the job right now, but he does seem to | :57:16. | :57:20. | |
have attracted an inordinate amount of criticism and abuse. I think it | :57:21. | :57:24. | |
is partly because he starts off not listening and by the time he does | :57:25. | :57:31. | |
listen, people forget it was in the first place. He gets abuse for doing | :57:32. | :57:35. | |
the wrong thing and then he gets chided for having changed his mind. | :57:36. | :57:42. | |
Let's talk about Nick Clegg briefly. Do we have to? ! Who do you think he | :57:43. | :57:48. | |
is appealing to with his policy on free schools. Former Liberal | :57:49. | :57:53. | |
Democrat voters. I could not fault what he said on the three issues | :57:54. | :57:57. | |
that actually, bearing mind that Margaret Thatcher introduced the | :57:58. | :58:00. | |
curriculum, that the government say they are in favour of decent food in | :58:01. | :58:05. | |
schools and that there is only a fringe element that do not think | :58:06. | :58:10. | |
teachers should be able to teach. A Lib lab coalition? Come on. Maybe a | :58:11. | :58:16. | |
neighbour of mine in Sheffield but we are not in a love in. On this one | :58:17. | :58:20. | |
occasion I would agree with him and it is painful to do so. Finally, in | :58:21. | :58:30. | |
the answer to the queries, who resigned yesterday? It was David | :58:31. | :58:36. | |
Cameron, I should have made you guess. Well done, Wales Online, just | :58:37. | :58:44. | |
a bit premature! That's all for today. Thanks to our | :58:45. | :58:48. | |
guests. The One o'clock News is starting over on BBC One now. Andrew | :58:49. | :58:52. | |
and I will be here at 11.30am tomorrow with Prime Minister's | :58:53. | :58:55. | |
Questions and all the big political stories of the day. Do join us then. | :58:56. | :58:57. | |
Bye-bye. | :58:58. | :59:01. |