22/10/2013 Daily Politics


22/10/2013

Jo Coburn is joined by former home secretary David Blunkett to discuss the latest political news, including government plans to clamp down on health tourism.


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Transcript


LineFromTo

Good afternoon - welcome to The Daily Politics.

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?2 billion - that's how much foreign patients cost the NHS every year,

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says the Department of Health - but could we get some of that money back

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with a tougher approach to migrants and visitors?

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Nick Clegg thinks they need one, Michael Gove thinks they don't.

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Should teachers have to have a teaching qualification to teach?

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It's worth ?36 billion to the UK economy, but are our creative

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industries being undermined by illegal downloads? For goodness

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sake, what is the profession going to?

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And why do some people love to hate education secretaries?

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All that in the next hour, and with us for the whole programme today is

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a former Education Secretary, Home Secretary, and Work and Pensions

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Secretary, David Blunkett. Is sounded young in those days!

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Let's start with Plebgate. You'll remember that a year ago, Andrew

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Mitchell - who was the Government Chief Whip at the time - was

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involved in an incident in Downing Street after police officers refused

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to allow him to ride his bicycle through the gates. Mr Mitchell

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admits swearing, but vehemently denies referring to police officers

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as "plebs." Andrew Mitchell later met members of the the Police

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Federation in his Sutton Coldfield constituency, in a meeting designed

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to clear the air. But three police officers emerged from that meeting

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to tell the press that Mr Mitchell had refused to elaborate on those

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events and repeated their call for him to resign. Well, last week -

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after hearing a recording of that meeting - the police watchdog

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accused those officers of giving a misleading account, and called on

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the officers involved to be disciplined. Yesterday, they issued

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this statement. "We acknowledge the investigation's criticism relating

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to our poor judgment in talking to the media following the meeting with

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Andrew Mitchell, for which we take this opportunity to apologise.

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Does that go far enough? Well, the apology would be much more realistic

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and plausible if they had apologised for deliberately or otherwise

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misleading the press that they're apologising, because they did go to

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that meeting and came out saying Mr Mitchell hadn't said things which he

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had said. He had been much clearer with them than they claimed. I think

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an apology on those grounds would at least have gone some way to sorting

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this out. My own view is he should never have been forced out in the

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first place. It was a storm in a teacup. It is the kind of thing

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against its own moment. All of this could have been resolved quickly. Do

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you think he should get his job back? I don't think he will get his

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job back but I would be surprised if he didn't get invited back into the

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Cabinet at the general election order the opposition front bench

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after the general election. Do you believe that David Davis, a friend

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of Mr Mitchell, is right when he says that actually the officers are

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guilty of a premeditated attack on Andrew Mitchell? Do you see it in

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those conspiratorial terms? Well, premeditated is pretty strong. It is

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clear they clearly had a position in their heads, they were in attack

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mode. I think whatever he said to them, they would come out and say

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something detrimental. I think that is fundamentally wrong. Police

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officers have to be able to make rational, balanced judgements. I

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think that is what undermined confidence on this particular

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issue. Whilst I am concerned about this and other high profile issues

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over the last 25 years, I do actually think we are more

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transparent in terms of policing, we are clearer about what we expect

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from them than we were 25 years ago. This won't help the trust issue

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though will it? People say, if this is what can happen with a high

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profile politician, what chance do we have? I understand that and we

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need to take whatever steps that are necessary. But until 30 years ago

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police officers didn't have to record interviews, there was a real

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suspicion not least in incidents like the West Midlands serious crime

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squad where massive abuse took place. So we need to get it into

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some sort of historic context, because, actually, day in, day out,,

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ordinary policemen and women are doing a good job.

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Now, it's time for our daily quiz. Who, according to Wales Online,

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sensationally resigned yesterday? Was it a) The Pope, b) David

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Cameron, c) Welsh rugby coach Warren Gatland, or d) the Prince of Wales?

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At the end of the show, David will give us the correct answer.

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The NHS could claw back more than half a billion pounds a year if it

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was better at charging foreign nationals for using the health

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service. That's the finding of a report which has been commissioned

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by the Health Secretary. Yes, Jeremy Hunt wants to get tough on so-called

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health tourists and toughen up the rules for foreigners who access the

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NHS. The study he commissioned says that the cost of migrants who are

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already in Britain, but not eligible for free treatment, is ?388 million.

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The report also says foreigners who visit simply to use the health

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service costs anywhere between ?70 million and ?300 million a year. As

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part of its Immigration Bill, the Government has already announced it

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plans to charge an annual levy of ?200 for non-EU migrants and ?150

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for foreign students. It's hoped that will raise about ?200 million

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each year. Joining me now is the Conservative MP Henry Smith, who

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introduced a Private Members' Bill last year to highlight the issue of

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health tourism, and Clare Gerada, who chairs the Royal College of GPs.

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Welcome to both of you. Clare do you accept the NHS loses this much money

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through the treatment of foreign patients? I think there certainly is

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some expenditure on people who are not entitled to NHS care,

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absolutely. But the figures are complicated. There are expats as

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well. It is not necessarily foreigners. People may have been

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born in this country, gone overseas to live, and come back here when

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they are older and frailer. You also have students, perfectly entitled to

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come here and steady and pay student fees, who are included. So clearly

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where there is absolute abuse of the system we need to get a grip, but we

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must make sure that if we do implement anything, that it is

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proportionate and it doesn't make the GPA border agent. Do you think

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it is proportionate to charge people what you say is very legitimate? I

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think it is legitimate to charge EU nationals who use the NHS under

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perfectly reasonable arrangements that exist across the whole of the

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EU. That could be anything from 600 to ?900 million that we could

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recoup, apparently. What is the factual evidence that that amount of

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money is being lost? As far as I understand, it all sounds anecdotal,

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and concrete figures are difficult to come by. That is the problem, we

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are not properly recording the treatments of foreign nationals on

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the NHS. The report suggests only 16% of treatments of European

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National is on the National Health Service is actually recovered. When

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I did Freedom of information requests last year to all NHS

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officers and the country, the estimates ranged from ?200 million

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to ?2 billion. If we were to recover three quarters of the costs we do

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currently, we would be able to employ an extra 4000 doctors. What

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do you say to her point that they don't want to be a Border Agency? It

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would be front-line staff who would have to be involved in checking the

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eligibility of patients that come to them from abroad, where they are

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from, and how much they would have to pay. I understand those concerns.

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" the rest of the world do this already. If you go to France, Spain,

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the US, Australia, and you seek public health care, they will record

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your eligibility for that. Secondly, if they recover the costs, this will

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be less of a burden on the NHS, not more. It is not as easy as just

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saying their eligibility. We would have to look at their passport and

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how many times they were in and out of the country. If they were from

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the EU we would have to look for proof that they had been here for

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the record is it amount of time to get free health care in this

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country. So it is very complicated and it is not something I is a GP

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should be doing. I accept there are some groups who come here and fall

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ill and under reciprocal arrangements we can. How else would

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we get the money? Hospitals already get the money from road traffic

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accidents through insurance companies. They are setup to do

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that. But ask me as a GP or my receptionist to be quizzing a

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65-year-old about how long they are going to be a way, whether they are

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paying attention - that is not my job. That is not how it will

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operate. How would it work? It will work the same way it does in the

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rest of the European economic area. We are not properly recording the

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cost of treating foreign nationals. You have not and said how the money

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will come from a patient who comes into Clare's surgery and says where

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they are from - presumably they will have to be asked questions by

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somebody in the surgery, is that right? Well, if you open a bank

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account here as a foreign national you have to provide details. The

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rest of the Private practice does that all the time. The problem is

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not that we think we should be looking at it, that is legitimate.

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It is the implementation. It is making sure my prime responsibility

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is to the patients in front of me. Actually, hospitals may well be

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better placed to do some of this. It is also making sure we don't start

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assuming every foreign national is there to abuse our system. They are

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not. Is there an element of xenophobia, as Diane Abbott

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suggested? I think the biggest problem is expats, it is our

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mothers, fathers, aunts and uncles who come back. We are denigrating

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yet again immigrants who are more likely to be caring for us than

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abusing our health care system. I do think the charge of xenophobia is

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quite insulting. This is what the rest of the world does. If you are a

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Brit going abroad on business or holiday to Europe elsewhere, you are

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expected to carry your European health insurance card or have travel

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insurance when you travel abroad. This is what we do, it is what the

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rest of the world does, it is time the British taxpayer wasn't picking

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up this burden. David Blunkett, isn't it true - when I go to France,

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and I have been to a GP there, I paid ?25 to see the GP and for some

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antibiotics for my son. Shouldn't that happen here? Well, leave aside

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the fact that GPs don't exist in the rest of the world the same way they

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do here, the principle is unanswerable. Of course, we should

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do everything we can. Ten years ago I was into this as Home Secretary.

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The Department of Health were reluctant to come up with an

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estimate of figures then, just as we're arguing about the figures now.

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This was part of my desire to have a clean register of those entitled to

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work, entitled to public services, and, dare I mention it, the ID card

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idea, which would have made it very easy to know whether someone was at

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least practically in a position to access our public services. In the

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end, we need good administrative systems, and Clare is right, GPs on

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the whole registering people. What do you say to Andy who says the

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government has released headline grabbing figures based on incomplete

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data. A Labour MP has said we should not be arguing about the research,

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we should just be backing the principle, as you said. Well, I

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cannot disagree with that. I don't think Andy Burnham is wrong, it is

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headline grabbing on a day when we have yet another immigration Bill

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having its second reading in the House of Commons. This is what this

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is about, and I hope we can have an all-party approach to this, which

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is, yes, we need to get the money in because it is money that should be

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spent on patients in our communities through our health service. What do

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you say to that, that these are headline grabbing figures? Well, I

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think we should have an all-party approach to this. The vast majority

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of our electorate are telling us they want is to address this

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problem. I was delighted a Labour member was one of the co-sponsors of

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my Private Members' Bill on this issue last year. I think it is a

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case of fairness to patients and to the taxpayer. When budgets are

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tight, it is about whether the cost of care is increasing. We need to be

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as efficient with the budget as possible. If we can recover a figure

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of around half ?1 billion, I think that is worth pursuing. And think of

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what that would do in terms of recruitment of doctors.

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If you were putting a cheque into every one of the 10,000 GP

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practices, it would cost a vast amount of money. If it is about

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chasing all, if it is about debt collection, again, it may well cost

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a lot of money to collect. David Dunk it says you need those new

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administrative services. -- David Blunkett. We are there to treat and

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care for patients, not to ask them for their eligibility to health

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care. Can I move on to something. The go home vans which were driving

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around the inner London are is targeting illegal in the is. One

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Tory MP said they were proud of those fans but they will not go

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ahead. They failed. The evidence did not show that they made any

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difference to a sensible or rational approach to saying, if you are not

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entitled to be here, if you are not entitled to draw on a fix, then you

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should go home. What do you think? I think in theory it is a thing worth

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looking at. If you go into a shop there are notices saying if you

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shoplift you will be prosecuted. So there should be a sign saying if you

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are illegal, you will be deported. But those vans made people less

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willing to report people than more willing. As a citizen I am ashamed

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that we have fans like that which frightened people. I am ashamed that

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my tax payers money is used for that sort of advertising. Even the

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illegal immigrants? They are frightening vans. They are drug

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trade and I am sure there are better ways of addressing illegal

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immigrants. Well, they will not be around any more. Thank you.

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Now, President Hollande of France told President Obama last night that

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spying on millions of French telephone calls is not the behaviour

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of a friend and ally. Revelations that the US National

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Security Agency or NSA was eavesdropping on the communications

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of members of the public around the world were contained in documents

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leaked by former NSA contractor Edward Snowden and published in the

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UK by the Guardian newspaper. But MPs here, including the Prime

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Minister, have criticised the Guardian, accusing them of

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compromising national security. The backbench Conservative MP Julian

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Smith, is holding a debate in parliament this afternoon. He's in

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central Lobby as is Julian Huppert who has defended the newspaper's

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right to publish. Welcome to both of you. Julian Smith, you say the

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Guardian has crossed the line between responsible journalism and

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seriously risking national security. Wide? I think there is a

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darker side to this whole story which has seen one Briton's leading

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newspapers sent highly controversial information, potentially including

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details of people who have protected us, has sent those documents

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overseas, stored in a way which is incredibly vulnerable to terrorist

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infiltration and really providing to the world and ability to find out

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the deepest detail of our intelligence operations. Julian

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Huppert, you can respond directly to that and the Prime Minister has said

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it has damaged our national security and it is a gift to the terrorists.

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I have not seen anything which was published which would be a gift to

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terrorists. They have not published names and details. They have raised

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an important public debate. I think it is important that people know not

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the details of what is being done, but that there is widespread

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surveillance so we can have a chance to think about what is that balance.

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We know GCHQ and others play a critical role. They have to do that

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with the consent of the British public. I will be asking later on

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for a debate in Parliament about this issue and what is OK and what

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is not. There is a public interest case because people did not realise

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the content of e-mails or private correspondence was being looked at.

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There is absolutely the need for responsible journalism in this area.

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The Guardian is revealing something we did not know. The Guardian

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overstepped the line. Why did they publish details of internal

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communications, showing the gay and lesbian clubs which GCHQ staff

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belong to is that why did they showed PowerPoint presentations and

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send those allegedly overseas? It is that question which needs answering.

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I accept the public interest and having a debate. I accept we should

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monitor our intelligence services. But the Guardian has gone beyond

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this. Do you think there is a case to answer that the Guardian has in a

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way done what it is accusing governments of doing and it has in a

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blanket way published secret files? The Guardian has chosen carefully

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what to publish and what not to. What about the information about

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GCHQ individuals? There is not much individual information. The Guardian

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was careful about that. Julian talked about the PowerPoint slides.

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That was the key information which let us know how much of this there

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was. If the Guardian had published things saying we have seen stuff but

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cannot tell you about it, people would be criticising them for that.

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There will be careful discussion about that. I know the Guardian has

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spoken lawyers about this. I have not seen anything, they have opened

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up the public debate which is essential. We have to make sure we

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can trust GCHQ and other agencies. This debate is helpful. Do you trust

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GCHQ? Not at the expense of national security. The Guardian has a major

:22:42.:22:46.

stain on it because it has crossed that bridge between responsible

:22:47.:22:49.

journalism and protect the lives of the families and the people who have

:22:50.:22:53.

protected us for many, many years and it is that I want to highlight

:22:54.:22:57.

in Parliament today. I understand why your concern didn't if they had

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published list of agents I would join you in that case but they did

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not do that. There are many politicians and people involved in

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intelligence agencies who think it does risk security. There will be

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people who think it is not worth doing anything which sacrifices our

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national security when having a debate about the balance between

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freedom, privacy and national security. I think the best way to

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strengthen National Security Agency to have an open discussion so that

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people are comfortable and they are doing the right things. It has been

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said that they need to get engaged and reassure the public. To define

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everything is top secret does not provide that security. President

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Hollande is very unhappy about this. He has expressed his deep

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disapproval to President Obama about the National Security Agency in the

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USA recorded 70 million French phone calls and one month. They said that

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as infringing the rights of French citizens. I have not challenge the

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Guardian to reveal information in a responsible way. What I do say is we

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stand here throughout the world with detailed information about GCHQ and

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our intelligence services in highly vulnerable storage, looked after by

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the Guardian's journalists. That is wrong and that wrong has to be

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righted. Thank you both of you. David Blunkett, should we worry

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about National is the two with the publication of these files? Yes, we

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should. The intelligence and Security committee has been given

:24:45.:24:47.

new powers. They have decided they will investigate and take a look and

:24:48.:24:52.

come back to us. That is really important that we do not rely on the

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Guardian or any other newspaper to actually protect us in terms of our

:24:57.:25:03.

freedoms being eroded. We would not have had that debate without it.

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Having a free press is really important but having national

:25:09.:25:11.

systems and processes to protect us from the closure -- disclosure of

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information which has been stolen, is a bad idea. We cannot have an

:25:24.:25:28.

individual editor who is acting irresponsibly. I think the editor of

:25:29.:25:33.

the Guardian has. He is being judge and jury. That is not the way the

:25:34.:25:37.

world can work. Incidentally, I love the French suggestion that everybody

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knows they are up to it as well. Everybody is up to it or that is the

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feeling that there is a double standard, if you like. On the issue

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of the press, there will be a fear that an attempt is being made by the

:25:54.:25:59.

press to silence these issues. That is why they have opened the debate.

:26:00.:26:04.

That is why this discussion which you have just had is very

:26:05.:26:09.

important. On the one hand, we do not want people stealing material

:26:10.:26:13.

and putting it out in the ether and undermining the very protection of

:26:14.:26:16.

our well-being. That is what the intelligence community is doing. On

:26:17.:26:22.

the other hand, actually suppressing things which we should legitimately

:26:23.:26:26.

know is going on. Not just the detail but the process. Do we want

:26:27.:26:30.

that in our democracy. I think we do but we need to carry people with us.

:26:31.:26:35.

Thank you. Now, Free Schools are a flagship

:26:36.:26:38.

part of the Government's education policy. These new institutions are

:26:39.:26:42.

free of local authority control, free not to follow the national

:26:43.:26:45.

curriculum, free to feed children what they want and free to hire

:26:46.:26:48.

teachers who don't have a teaching qualification. It was a surprise

:26:49.:26:52.

then that at the weekend the Deputy Prime Minister suggested that they

:26:53.:26:55.

shouldn't have some of these freedoms, and specifically that the

:26:56.:26:58.

Liberal Democrats wanted teachers at these schools to have Qualified

:26:59.:27:02.

Teacher Status. It's caused rather a rift within the coalition and

:27:03.:27:04.

yesterday afternoon the Business Secretary, Vince Cable, was asked to

:27:05.:27:11.

clarify the Lib Dem position. The original idea that we voted for, the

:27:12.:27:16.

assumption was they were properly qualified teachers and that seems to

:27:17.:27:20.

have changed. We are making it clear in the next Parliament, we want a

:27:21.:27:25.

proper commitment to train teachers. That is what it beggars emphasising

:27:26.:27:29.

and I totally support him. We're joined now by the deputy

:27:30.:27:32.

headmaster of the independent school, Brighton College, John

:27:33.:27:35.

Weeks. They also sponsor an academy in East London. And former education

:27:36.:27:39.

secretary, David Blunkett, is still here. John Weeks, first of all, are

:27:40.:27:46.

you worried by the comments from Nick Clegg about teacher training

:27:47.:27:53.

and the standard of school meals. I think I am worried about it, yes. We

:27:54.:28:00.

have got no objections to teachers who have a training qualification. I

:28:01.:28:04.

think there is a great worth and value in those qualifications that

:28:05.:28:14.

go on at university. Indeed, I have a qualification, a PGCE myself. I am

:28:15.:28:17.

worried that there is a call for them to be mandatory for all

:28:18.:28:20.

teachers. We have very successfully inducted a lot of unqualified

:28:21.:28:26.

teachers into both our schools in Brighton, the independent school in

:28:27.:28:30.

Brighton, and indeed up at the London Academy where over half of

:28:31.:28:34.

the 38 staff do not have an official teaching qualification. And yet,

:28:35.:28:40.

they teach very successfully, both here in Brighton and up in London.

:28:41.:28:45.

So, the comments by Nick Clegg, where does that leave you and your

:28:46.:28:51.

teachers? I think that needs to be looked at again. We have done a lot

:28:52.:28:55.

of research in Brighton and around the world about what are the most

:28:56.:29:01.

important factors in a really top education. And without exception,

:29:02.:29:09.

the country and institutions around the world -- the countries and

:29:10.:29:13.

institutions around the world which have the most successful education

:29:14.:29:17.

cultures, take the top 10% of graduates from their universities.

:29:18.:29:21.

We find here and in our recruitment both at the London Academy and in

:29:22.:29:25.

Brighton, we recruit those teachers who are the most highly qualified in

:29:26.:29:31.

their subjects. Just hold on one minute and get a response from David

:29:32.:29:34.

Luckett. Do you think it is important that teachers in schools

:29:35.:29:40.

in England should have qualified teacher status? Yes, I do. I am a

:29:41.:29:46.

qualified teacher. There is no contradiction between recruiting the

:29:47.:29:49.

best graduates in the country and then ensuring that they are trained.

:29:50.:29:54.

That is why I introduced those years ago Teach First, to get the

:29:55.:29:58.

graduates in and teach them on the job. We have teaching schools

:29:59.:30:03.

Alliance programmes now which teach youngsters in the school. But at the

:30:04.:30:07.

end of the day, knowing your subject is not enough. Being able to

:30:08.:30:10.

translate and transmit that information and engage young people

:30:11.:30:13.

and learning is what it is all about. Brighton College can do

:30:14.:30:18.

whatever they like, they are private school. The parents will hold them

:30:19.:30:25.

to account. I am not against having people working to train teachers,

:30:26.:30:29.

instruct does in particular areas, teaching assistants are commonplace.

:30:30.:30:34.

It is a question whether the clash should be supervised -- it is a

:30:35.:30:39.

question whether the clasps should be supervised by summer with

:30:40.:30:44.

pedagogic knowledge. Otherwise lets her brain surgeons from a technician

:30:45.:30:50.

who was pretty good at managing something entirely different.

:30:51.:30:54.

Although as John Weeks was saying, if these people are highly qualified

:30:55.:30:59.

in their subject, are very bright and have communication skills, do

:31:00.:31:09.

you need a specific qualification? I think top graduates can be brought

:31:10.:31:13.

in immediately and encouraged and supported to remain where that is

:31:14.:31:19.

appropriate. But in the end, I had teachers who knew their subject

:31:20.:31:22.

extremely well and were absolutely useless at being able to

:31:23.:31:26.

communicate. That is no good to any of us. What do you say to that?

:31:27.:31:31.

You've got to be able to handle the class and go through a process by

:31:32.:31:35.

which you are taught how to teach children. Yes, we have a

:31:36.:31:45.

comprehensive, thorough mentoring and support process, particularly

:31:46.:31:52.

through the first year, where all the new teachers have weekly

:31:53.:31:54.

meetings with the heads of department, they are observed, they

:31:55.:31:57.

have undergoing pupil questionnaires. Is that the same as

:31:58.:32:04.

having a qualification? Yes, Brighton College is an independent

:32:05.:32:08.

school where you are able to do that, but in terms of the three

:32:09.:32:15.

schools, do you think Nick Clegg is right, David Blunkett is right, they

:32:16.:32:20.

must have this qualified teacher status? I don't think so. I think

:32:21.:32:25.

the support we provide in Brighton is perfectly sufficient. We've taken

:32:26.:32:32.

graduates and also more experienced people from industry, we've got a

:32:33.:32:39.

nuclear physicist teaching us, an aid worker teaching in the geography

:32:40.:32:42.

department, and I do wonder whether, if they had to go through that extra

:32:43.:32:50.

year, would they have come into teaching at all? That would be a

:32:51.:32:56.

shame. It's a terrible thing that we should ask people to be qualified

:32:57.:32:59.

when we asked the rest of the world to do just that

:33:00.:33:36.

you understand people will worry and they may use that argument? I don't

:33:37.:33:38.

think so. There are many headmasters out there without qualifications who

:33:39.:33:48.

are perfectly successful. Over the last few years we have failed if you

:33:49.:33:53.

teachers on the probation, as many with qualifications as without. I

:33:54.:34:01.

don't see a qualification. It is simply whether they are a good

:34:02.:34:06.

teacher or not. Well, we do train teachers and their dropout very

:34:07.:34:10.

quickly after qualifying. We need to work out the career path so that

:34:11.:34:14.

young people coming in really do know that if they are going to get

:34:15.:34:20.

the necessary qualification and body of knowledge to teach that they

:34:21.:34:25.

actually stick with us. What about Labour's position on free school

:34:26.:34:30.

's? Labour has been accused of changing its mind. Tristram Hunt has

:34:31.:34:35.

had to come in and retract from his comments that free schools were just

:34:36.:34:40.

for yummy mummies. Now, he is all for them as long as there is need.

:34:41.:34:46.

Where is Labour on free schools? I'm undertaking a review with Ed

:34:47.:34:49.

Miliband and Tristram Hunt on the way to go forwards. I will report on

:34:50.:34:59.

that next year. Just answer your question, 13 years ago, there was a

:35:00.:35:08.

parent led school in Dulwich where there was a shortage of secondary

:35:09.:35:12.

places. Parents wanted to be involved and I saw nothing wrong

:35:13.:35:16.

with that. That is what Tristram Hunt said. I think we can square

:35:17.:35:23.

this circle, we just need a bit of common sense. Pupils have an

:35:24.:35:27.

entitlement. That entitlement should apply whichever status of school,

:35:28.:35:31.

which aired the area you live in. That should be about the best

:35:32.:35:35.

possible teaching in the classroom and the best leadership in the

:35:36.:35:40.

school, and people who are held to account. If you can square that

:35:41.:35:44.

circle, we will get back contract, rather than believing free schools

:35:45.:35:49.

are ideological and the end of the game. Actually, the status and

:35:50.:35:54.

structure of schools is all about the standards and delivering to the

:35:55.:35:58.

pupils. Just a reminder, three schools are in England only. -- free

:35:59.:36:06.

schools. So, Britain is getting a new nuclear

:36:07.:36:10.

power station, but it won't be British owned or designed, so should

:36:11.:36:13.

we be concerned about the state of our engineering sector? According to

:36:14.:36:16.

the Institution of Engineering and Technology, we should be - they say

:36:17.:36:20.

there is a skills crisis in the sector and are also concerned by the

:36:21.:36:23.

lack of female engineers. Currently just 7% of engineers are female. So

:36:24.:36:27.

how can we encourage more girls to consider engineering as a career?

:36:28.:36:30.

Here are the views of some students in Sheffield. I like

:36:31.:36:36.

problem-solving, which is what engineering is about. I thought

:36:37.:36:40.

engineering was about cars and lifts. But we do code breaking here.

:36:41.:36:45.

I really like that. Everyone was saying it was for boys but I wanted

:36:46.:36:52.

to see what it was about. On TV, you watch programmes and it is always

:36:53.:36:58.

boys. I think the key is information. I think a lot of people

:36:59.:37:01.

push other occupations forward more than others. I think if there were

:37:02.:37:07.

more successful role models in engineering, people would look up to

:37:08.:37:10.

it. It would be something to aspire to.

:37:11.:37:14.

I'm joined now by Roma Agrawal, a structural engineer who worked on

:37:15.:37:18.

the Shard, and Peter Luff MP, who is campaigning for more action to

:37:19.:37:20.

encourage young people in to engineering and science. What

:37:21.:37:27.

attracted you to engineering? It's such a fun profession. It is

:37:28.:37:32.

creative, collaborative. I love making things. It probably started

:37:33.:37:36.

with my love of putting Lego together as a young child. Making

:37:37.:37:41.

that leap to building the Shard is something we need to make. I would

:37:42.:37:50.

love to think my children could become engineers. Did you realise

:37:51.:37:53.

you were going into a profession where there were hardly any women? I

:37:54.:37:58.

actually studied physics and switched to engineering and

:37:59.:38:00.

afterwards when I became more aware of it. It never bothered me there

:38:01.:38:07.

were not many women. Why don't we have more women like Roma in

:38:08.:38:14.

engineering? Well, firstly, it is important to recognise we need more

:38:15.:38:18.

engineers. But we certainly need more women. The evidence is, a lot

:38:19.:38:26.

of gender at -- stereotyping takes place at school. Coeducational

:38:27.:38:32.

schools in particular do not have more girls doing physics. Whether a

:38:33.:38:38.

lot of girls in your class doing physics? I was in a year of 120

:38:39.:38:44.

girls, it was a girls school. There were 14 of us doing physics. I'm

:38:45.:38:48.

pleased to say I went back recently and that has now doubled to 30, so

:38:49.:38:53.

that things seem to be looking up. There clearly are not enough girls

:38:54.:38:58.

studying physics. I wonder if it is difficult to connect where physics

:38:59.:39:02.

will lead you. Is that not the industry 's fault? Don't they need

:39:03.:39:08.

to do a bit more in terms of sending people like Roma out to say, look at

:39:09.:39:13.

me. I do a job in engineering, and I am just like you. You are right.

:39:14.:39:19.

Engineering UK is bringing together a complex package of schemes, that

:39:20.:39:24.

they are not doing enough to say, this is an exciting career. I think

:39:25.:39:29.

girls need to be reached at primary school and told what a great career

:39:30.:39:33.

it is. Because it is a good job. Particularly when we just come

:39:34.:39:37.

through a recession, if you are a graduate trying to get into media,

:39:38.:39:43.

you might find it easier to get into engineering, if you'd chosen that

:39:44.:39:48.

career path. Yes, I think people with logical minds who are good at

:39:49.:39:54.

problem-solving are in high demand in any profession. So engineering

:39:55.:39:57.

graduates are snapped up by other professions as well. Do you think

:39:58.:40:02.

Labour missed this? We know now there is a shortage of engineers. We

:40:03.:40:07.

have a great heritage of engineering and not enough was done to push it

:40:08.:40:11.

as a subject, particularly for women? Well, there were a number of

:40:12.:40:17.

schools which chose engineering as a specialism. That then eroded. That's

:40:18.:40:24.

the problem with the education system, we go in waves. And the

:40:25.:40:28.

three of us are in total agreement on this, it's nice for once. Physics

:40:29.:40:49.

is a good route to engineering. The University of technology, I'm fully

:40:50.:40:58.

in favour of them. So there are a number of routes there. I got this a

:40:59.:41:03.

long time ago. My then wife, when we were camping with our small

:41:04.:41:07.

children, used to open the back of the car and play at very high

:41:08.:41:11.

volume, Monica wants to be an engineer it. I think they were

:41:12.:41:21.

getting the message. As Roma says, engineering is fun and we need to

:41:22.:41:26.

get industry into schools, using the new design and technology curriculum

:41:27.:41:31.

to say, hey, you can use these skills. What skills do women bring

:41:32.:41:38.

to engineering? More creativity, more team work. Females tend to be

:41:39.:41:47.

better at that. We need more women in engineering for the engineering

:41:48.:41:52.

companies. What about mentors, that is the problem, isn't it? Mentors at

:41:53.:41:58.

all levels. A lot of women going to engineering companies and don't go

:41:59.:42:03.

on. They find it too much of a male environment. We need ambassadors

:42:04.:42:06.

going into primary schools and saying, you can do this. There is a

:42:07.:42:15.

centre at the University of Sheffield working with Boeing. I've

:42:16.:42:20.

met the people on apprenticeships and they are not entirely male but

:42:21.:42:24.

they are largely, so we need to work on that. That is going back to the

:42:25.:42:29.

issue of schools. Why are girls giving up sciences so early on? Is

:42:30.:42:34.

it because they are so difficult? Girls can handle that, can't they?

:42:35.:42:38.

Yes, and I think one thing that is being brought to write is we are

:42:39.:42:46.

trying to show girls that studying physics and maths can lead to this.

:42:47.:42:50.

We've had 14-year-olds and 17-year-olds coming to our office

:42:51.:42:54.

this year and hopefully open their eyes to the whole world of

:42:55.:42:58.

possibilities with a physics GCSE or A-level. It is getting better. About

:42:59.:43:05.

as many girls took GCSE physics as boys. The key now is to get them

:43:06.:43:13.

taking A-levels as well. You are no longer up to your elbows in oil as

:43:14.:43:17.

an engineer. The world has completely transformed. Yes, we

:43:18.:43:23.

spend a lot of time with architects and sketches, saying, how are we

:43:24.:43:28.

going to make a building stand up, for example. It is very

:43:29.:43:33.

collaborative and creative. It is an exciting profession. The image of

:43:34.:43:41.

engineering is out of date. If you want to make a life-saving device,

:43:42.:43:49.

you need an engineering education. So the idea of being a geek, is that

:43:50.:43:56.

wrong? It is a stereotype. I'm an engineer. You don't look like a

:43:57.:44:00.

geek! That's the sort of thing we need to do. Have you got a benchmark

:44:01.:44:07.

the need to reach? Physics is the fourth most popular subject the boys

:44:08.:44:13.

and 19th girls. I would like to see more girls taking it at A-level.

:44:14.:44:17.

Then they can decide what to do. How many women engineers do you think we

:44:18.:44:23.

need? We are 7% at present. France has 22%. We should be up 50%. It can

:44:24.:44:33.

be done. I've seen it. Do you think Michael Gove values engineering in

:44:34.:44:37.

the way it should be valued? I think it is encouraging. There has been a

:44:38.:44:43.

review on engineering skills which is being published in two weeks'

:44:44.:44:48.

time. But we cannot let this go, it's got to be achieved. There is a

:44:49.:44:54.

lot to do, but I'm very optimistic. A third of our graduate intake last

:44:55.:44:58.

year was female, so things are looking up. Thank you both very

:44:59.:45:05.

much. Now one of the UK's success stories

:45:06.:45:10.

is our creative industries. Our film, television, publishing and

:45:11.:45:12.

design companies create over one and half million jobs and bring in ?36

:45:13.:45:16.

billion pounds a year. But despite this they are vulnerable to piracy

:45:17.:45:19.

and lose millions of pounds annually. The recent Emmy success of

:45:20.:45:24.

Breaking Bad was partly owed to the illegal download and a recent OFCOM

:45:25.:45:27.

report said that almost a quarter of all downloads in the UK are of

:45:28.:45:31.

pirated content. Well, Pete Wishart thinks it's time that something

:45:32.:45:35.

should be done about it. This is his soapbox.

:45:36.:45:53.

That is me with the Scottish band Runrig performing on Top Of The

:45:54.:46:04.

Pops. Our industries are protected and properly rewarded for the

:46:05.:46:10.

fantastic work they produce. Being creative is something we do very,

:46:11.:46:14.

very well. Whether it is film, music, publishing or design, the UK

:46:15.:46:19.

is in the top three of practically every cultural sector. 1.5 million

:46:20.:46:23.

people work within the creative industries and that generates

:46:24.:46:27.

something like ?35 billion to the economy. For all the success, these

:46:28.:46:32.

remain particularly fragile industries, that is because of the

:46:33.:46:37.

online changing digital environment where standing still for even one

:46:38.:46:41.

minute is not an option. Intellectual and property rights

:46:42.:46:47.

underpins the success and ensures the artist, creator and inventor are

:46:48.:46:52.

properly rewarded for the work they produce. But sometimes intellectual

:46:53.:46:55.

property rights are seen as a problem, something which is not

:46:56.:47:01.

respected, particularly in the online environment. If I walked into

:47:02.:47:05.

a hardware store and helped myself to the goods on offer I would be

:47:06.:47:11.

arrested, charged and convicted. But for some reason it seems to be

:47:12.:47:17.

okayed to take the rights of work online for nothing. This risks

:47:18.:47:24.

investment and jobs. We have got to start to get it through to people

:47:25.:47:29.

that taking something for nothing online is the same as taking

:47:30.:47:33.

something for nothing on the high Street. The IP rights are important

:47:34.:47:38.

property rights which protect the artist and creator and ensure they

:47:39.:47:40.

are rewarded for the works they produce. In the last Parliament, all

:47:41.:47:46.

parties agreed the Digital economy act and now is the time to get it

:47:47.:47:52.

into law, to ensure we can educate the public about illegal downloading

:47:53.:47:57.

and piracy. We have perhaps lost a generation to illegal downloading.

:47:58.:48:04.

We cannot afford to lose another. And Pete Wishart joins us now. We

:48:05.:48:11.

are hoping to be joined by the Labour MP Tom Watson who is in

:48:12.:48:15.

Birmingham. Apparently we can talk to him in a moment. Is illegal

:48:16.:48:20.

downloading really that much of a problem? Yes, it is. It is a real

:48:21.:48:25.

issue for our creative industries. So much is lost to illegal

:48:26.:48:31.

downloading and has to be challenged. We all agreed to the

:48:32.:48:35.

Digital economy act in the last Parliament. So we can start educate

:48:36.:48:41.

some of our young people around the issues. A recent OFCOM report said

:48:42.:48:46.

it was a minority activity with 2% of users accounting for three

:48:47.:48:51.

quarters of all downloads. The music industry reckons it loses something

:48:52.:48:55.

like 200 million pounds a year. The film industry has it worse. These

:48:56.:49:01.

are huge figures. They cost jobs and investment. We have to make sure we

:49:02.:49:06.

do something to challenge that. There are legitimate places

:49:07.:49:09.

available where people can get the product legally. We have to make

:49:10.:49:12.

sure people can be directed towards that. We have fantastic industries

:49:13.:49:18.

and we lead the world when it comes to being creative. We should make

:49:19.:49:23.

sure we continue to develop that. Tom Watson, something needs to be

:49:24.:49:28.

done otherwise it is risking our creative industries? I agree that

:49:29.:49:31.

our creative industries are the jewel in the crown of the country.

:49:32.:49:36.

But I am afraid the remedy for the digital Economy act, when it comes

:49:37.:49:40.

to film and music, it is a flawed act. It was railroaded through by

:49:41.:49:46.

Peter Mandelson in the dying days of the last government. It did not go

:49:47.:49:50.

to committee and had no public scrutiny. It was appallingly doesn't

:49:51.:49:58.

live -- delivered to Parliament. But Pete is right. We do need to deal

:49:59.:50:05.

with the super pirates that undermine the market. But clamping

:50:06.:50:11.

down on exit downloaders, I think is a mistake. It is over burdensome. It

:50:12.:50:16.

probably will not have any support out there, will it and the act is

:50:17.:50:22.

flawed? All the parties agreed to it apart from the Liberals. It was

:50:23.:50:26.

designed to ensure that we could educate young people. What they will

:50:27.:50:31.

get is notifications, a nice letter explaining that piracy and

:50:32.:50:37.

downloading is going on in this particular household and it will

:50:38.:50:40.

address it to see how they can deal with this and make sure they are

:50:41.:50:44.

directed towards legitimate site where they can acquire the wonderful

:50:45.:50:49.

products in illegal way. What is wrong with that, Tom Watson? You say

:50:50.:50:54.

it is a sledgehammer to deal with this but how else do you do it?

:50:55.:50:59.

Digital sales of music grew 12%, in fact vinyl sales of music group for

:51:00.:51:06.

a large amount the music industry has failed to deal with the advent

:51:07.:51:12.

of the Internet. They are reaping what they sowed ten years ago. That

:51:13.:51:17.

OFCOM report you talked about, 85% of us bathe the law when it comes to

:51:18.:51:23.

downloading. What they showed was is the letters Pete talk about would

:51:24.:51:28.

not deter infringers from continuing to download. I think there needs to

:51:29.:51:33.

be a different way of doing this. My view would be organisations like

:51:34.:51:37.

Google should use some of the tax money that they are not paying into

:51:38.:51:41.

the Exchequer to really clamp down on the pirate sites which market and

:51:42.:51:45.

make a great deal of money by enhancing piracy, rather than

:51:46.:51:49.

looking at consumers. Some of the artists out there, there is a great

:51:50.:51:54.

musician who has a new album out next Monday, he has released a

:51:55.:51:58.

single for free on YouTube today to try and build that new interest in

:51:59.:52:02.

his music. That is how some of these great creators are going. Isn't that

:52:03.:52:08.

how new careers are made. The problem is, you might damage some of

:52:09.:52:11.

that by introducing what Tom Watson believes is heavy-handed

:52:12.:52:16.

legislation. Shouldn't the onus be put on the companies out there?

:52:17.:52:22.

There is a big obligation to kill Elidh when it comes to piracy. If

:52:23.:52:27.

you do a Google search you will be directed to any number of sites

:52:28.:52:35.

where you will be able to download illegal products. We have industries

:52:36.:52:40.

to support here. It is not just the artists, it is the make up artists,

:52:41.:52:44.

the technicians, the studio engineers. These are fantastic

:52:45.:52:49.

industries we should be proud of. They are telling us they are hurting

:52:50.:52:54.

because of this. We will lose our position in the top three in the

:52:55.:52:59.

sectors around the world. David Blunkett, whose side are you one? We

:53:00.:53:07.

are in a real mess. Was it a shabby piece of legislation? It was not

:53:08.:53:13.

brilliant. The bulk of the act has a good intent which is to say what was

:53:14.:53:19.

illegal, that is theft, in the normal past world should still be

:53:20.:53:23.

left in this digital world. But I agree entirely with the idea that we

:53:24.:53:29.

should tackle the search engines and the piracy as well as warning just

:53:30.:53:32.

individuals that they are actually thieving. The fact that it is the

:53:33.:53:37.

Internet does not mean it is different. It is leaving. In the

:53:38.:53:42.

meantime, the industry which has been squealing about this for many

:53:43.:53:46.

years could diminish? That is not the case. We have more and more

:53:47.:53:52.

people consuming music, literature, art, because of the Internet rather

:53:53.:53:58.

than not because of it. I think the big publishing interests which are

:53:59.:54:02.

backed up by huge lobbyists are threatened, their business model is

:54:03.:54:05.

threatened but new creators entering the market, small musicians, this is

:54:06.:54:11.

a great opportunity. Thank you. Now, what is it about education?

:54:12.:54:17.

Politicians who meddle in it seem to attract an inordinate amount of

:54:18.:54:19.

abuse from the teaching profession and others. The current incumbent at

:54:20.:54:22.

the Department for Education, Michael Gove, has an enthusiastic

:54:23.:54:26.

club of detractors. One Brighton woman is even selling a "Michael

:54:27.:54:29.

Gove Voodoo Pincushion." She says, "it's crocheted by hand and mentally

:54:30.:54:32.

infused with mean thoughts about Michael Gove." Right. But Michael

:54:33.:54:38.

Gove is not alone. Our guest of the day, David Blunkett, may not have

:54:39.:54:41.

had his likeness reproduced as a pin cushion but will remember jeers as

:54:42.:54:45.

well as cheers in his time as Education Secretary. Here's a

:54:46.:54:48.

reminder of what those with the education brief have had to put up

:54:49.:54:50.

with. Most parents can afford to provide

:54:51.:55:03.

their own children with milk or give them money to buy milk.

:55:04.:55:16.

For goodness sake, what is the profession coming to, if I have come

:55:17.:55:23.

here to say things are improving and you heckle me.

:55:24.:55:34.

If people find it stressful that I am demanding higher standards I am

:55:35.:55:40.

not going to stop demanding higher standards.

:55:41.:55:48.

It is a tough job but somebody has got to do it. Our Education

:55:49.:55:56.

Secretary is always hated? If you are doing the job rigourously, you

:55:57.:56:03.

will always upset somebody. Everybody? We did not upset

:56:04.:56:08.

everybody. The worst was when I went to the Association of teachers and

:56:09.:56:11.

lecturers and they had agreed that they would not say a word. Nobody

:56:12.:56:17.

clapped, nobody laughed, nobody booed. It was absolutely deadly.

:56:18.:56:22.

Anyway, I am on good terms with them now. The behaviour has improved,

:56:23.:56:27.

that the Lord, because I said, what sort of example is this for pupils

:56:28.:56:31.

is it when you are behaving like this? We can have a disagreement but

:56:32.:56:36.

we do not have to do it in this way. Sometimes it was good, sometimes it

:56:37.:56:41.

was excruciating. My successor, Estelle Morris and then Charles

:56:42.:56:45.

Clarke, Charles decided he would not turn up at all... Do you think that

:56:46.:56:53.

was right? It was easier life. But you have not gone into it for an

:56:54.:56:58.

easy life. Do you have sympathy for Michael Gove, pin cushions and all?

:56:59.:57:02.

I have sympathy if he gets abused but I do not have sympathy with the

:57:03.:57:07.

ideological part of his agenda. We both want to improve standards.

:57:08.:57:15.

Maybe it is because he is doing the job right now, but he does seem to

:57:16.:57:20.

have attracted an inordinate amount of criticism and abuse. I think it

:57:21.:57:24.

is partly because he starts off not listening and by the time he does

:57:25.:57:31.

listen, people forget it was in the first place. He gets abuse for doing

:57:32.:57:35.

the wrong thing and then he gets chided for having changed his mind.

:57:36.:57:42.

Let's talk about Nick Clegg briefly. Do we have to? ! Who do you think he

:57:43.:57:48.

is appealing to with his policy on free schools. Former Liberal

:57:49.:57:53.

Democrat voters. I could not fault what he said on the three issues

:57:54.:57:57.

that actually, bearing mind that Margaret Thatcher introduced the

:57:58.:58:00.

curriculum, that the government say they are in favour of decent food in

:58:01.:58:05.

schools and that there is only a fringe element that do not think

:58:06.:58:10.

teachers should be able to teach. A Lib lab coalition? Come on. Maybe a

:58:11.:58:16.

neighbour of mine in Sheffield but we are not in a love in. On this one

:58:17.:58:20.

occasion I would agree with him and it is painful to do so. Finally, in

:58:21.:58:30.

the answer to the queries, who resigned yesterday? It was David

:58:31.:58:36.

Cameron, I should have made you guess. Well done, Wales Online, just

:58:37.:58:44.

a bit premature! That's all for today. Thanks to our

:58:45.:58:48.

guests. The One o'clock News is starting over on BBC One now. Andrew

:58:49.:58:52.

and I will be here at 11.30am tomorrow with Prime Minister's

:58:53.:58:55.

Questions and all the big political stories of the day. Do join us then.

:58:56.:58:57.

Bye-bye.

:58:58.:59:01.

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