29/10/2013 Daily Politics


29/10/2013

Similar Content

Browse content similar to 29/10/2013. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

Good afternoon and welcome to the Daily Politics. More union trouble

:00:36.:00:41.

for Labour in Scotland as the man at the centre of the Falkirk selection

:00:42.:00:44.

row and the dispute at Grangemouth resigns.

:00:45.:00:49.

The Government has another go at at making the case for spending ?43

:00:50.:00:52.

billion on some fast trains and track.

:00:53.:00:56.

When Mo met Tommy - we'll be speak to the man who tried to change the

:00:57.:01:00.

leader of the EDL's views about Muslims.

:01:01.:01:10.

And what on earth would persuade the son or daughter of an MP to... Well,

:01:11.:01:12.

become an MP? All that in the next hour. And with

:01:13.:01:20.

us for the whole programme today is a man whose career's an inspiration

:01:21.:01:23.

for any aspiring politico - former Home Secretary and Foreign

:01:24.:01:26.

Secretary, and soon to be former MP, Jack Straw. Welcome to the

:01:27.:01:35.

programme. Thank you. Let's start with foreign affairs, because this

:01:36.:01:37.

afternoon the Prime Minister is hosting the leaders of Pakistan and

:01:38.:01:40.

Afghanistan, Nawaz Sharif and Hamid Karzai, here in London. The

:01:41.:01:43.

discussions were instigated by David Cameron last year to work towards a

:01:44.:01:46.

peace deal in Afghanistan and the neighbouring areas of Pakistan. So

:01:47.:01:50.

will anything be achieved at today's meeting?

:01:51.:01:56.

I think so, and I hope so. Pakistan and Afghanistan's problems are

:01:57.:02:06.

essentially the same, and there has been a great deal of enmity between

:02:07.:02:17.

the governments. It runs right across the border, and Hamid Karzai

:02:18.:02:24.

once the Pakistan government to release some of the Taliban leaders,

:02:25.:02:30.

but he also wants the Pakistan government to be firmer about

:02:31.:02:32.

terrorism across the border, so it is quite complicated. And is now as

:02:33.:02:38.

Sharif up for that? Because that is the key issue. Notwithstanding the

:02:39.:02:50.

fact that it is highly probable that part of the intelligence service are

:02:51.:02:55.

implicated in the running of the Taliban, their security forces have

:02:56.:03:00.

lost many more people than imagined in fighting against terrorism. But

:03:01.:03:05.

these discussions are much better than not having discussions. What

:03:06.:03:10.

about the talks between the Afghan Taliban and the Afghan government?

:03:11.:03:16.

Can those be restarted? They can. It is like the talks that Tony Blair

:03:17.:03:21.

and John Major before him instigated with the provisional IRA. You are

:03:22.:03:28.

essentially taking a terrorist organisation out from using

:03:29.:03:31.

terrorism as its main political methods to using argument as its

:03:32.:03:36.

main political method. It can often be a very complicated and difficult

:03:37.:03:40.

process. But it is the only way, isn't it? It is, and there are

:03:41.:03:45.

examples across the world that show that you have to do it if you want

:03:46.:03:50.

an end to conflict. And will these talks kick-start that? They will

:03:51.:03:59.

start it. There will be a flash, but the situation will not be resolved

:04:00.:04:03.

just like that. These are incremental changes. But holding

:04:04.:04:11.

talks is an important step forward. What about Hamid Karzai's future.

:04:12.:04:15.

When American and British troops leave at the end of next year, what

:04:16.:04:18.

will happen to him? Will he survive? Will he physically

:04:19.:04:24.

survive? Yes, I think he will. I meant politically! Well, people do

:04:25.:04:31.

keep trying to kill him. He has a very effective security around him,

:04:32.:04:37.

so I suspect he will be able to personally survive. And he will be a

:04:38.:04:44.

big force in Afghan politics. He comes from a very distinguished

:04:45.:04:48.

family, indirectly related to the last king of Afghanistan, and he is

:04:49.:04:53.

a brilliant communicator. So I don't think it will be the last of Hamid

:04:54.:04:56.

Karzai at all. Thank you. Now it's time for our daily quiz.

:04:57.:05:00.

The question for today is: what are parliamentary authorities planning

:05:01.:05:03.

to spend a quarter of a million pounds on?

:05:04.:05:05.

Is it: a) Upgrading the gym. B) Straightening Big Ben. C) Raising

:05:06.:05:08.

the Speaker John Bercow's chair. Or d) refurbishing the Commons' bars?

:05:09.:05:12.

At the end of the show Jack will give us the correct answer.

:05:13.:05:19.

Ed Miliband is under fresh pressure to re-open the investigation into

:05:20.:05:23.

the candidate selection process in Falkirk. Earlier this year Labour

:05:24.:05:27.

suspended the selection process in Falkirk after launching an

:05:28.:05:29.

investigation into Unite's recruitment drive to the local party

:05:30.:05:32.

after allegations of vote-rigging there. That investigation found no

:05:33.:05:37.

wrongdoing, but a cache of e-mails released to the Sunday Times at the

:05:38.:05:40.

weekend appears to implicate Unite in Scotland in a concerted attempt

:05:41.:05:43.

to undermine Labour's initial investigation. At the centre of the

:05:44.:05:50.

scandal is Stevie Deans, the constituency party chairman in

:05:51.:05:52.

Falkirk, whose e-mails appear to reveal the scale of the plot. So say

:05:53.:06:01.

the Sunday Times. Mr Deans was also the Unite boss at the Grangemouth

:06:02.:06:04.

oil refinery until yesterday, when he resigned from his job at the

:06:05.:06:09.

facility. Back in May, Mr Deans was suspended from the Labour Party

:06:10.:06:12.

while an investigation was launched into allegations of vote-rigging and

:06:13.:06:15.

the methods Unite used to recruit new members to the local party. In

:06:16.:06:19.

July, Unite threatened industrial action at Grangemouth after the

:06:20.:06:22.

owner of the chemical plant, INEOS, suspended Mr Deans, accusing him of

:06:23.:06:25.

using company time for union business. In September Labour found

:06:26.:06:32.

no evidence of wrongdoing in the Falkirk selection after key evidence

:06:33.:06:35.

was withdrawn, and Mr Deans was reinstated to the party. But a cache

:06:36.:06:46.

of e-mails from Mr Dean's work account at Grangemouth leaked to the

:06:47.:06:49.

Sunday Times appear to show that Mr Deans oversaw the retraction of key

:06:50.:06:52.

witness statements from the initial inquiry. Unite denies that anything

:06:53.:06:59.

untoward took place. Meanwhile the row at Grangemouth between INEOS and

:07:00.:07:03.

Unite over the treatment of Mr Deans continued until last week when a

:07:04.:07:07.

deal was struck to keep the plant open. Well, a little earlier I spoke

:07:08.:07:10.

to Eric Joyce, the current MP for Falkirk. He sits as an independent

:07:11.:07:14.

after being suspended from Labour following a fight in a Commons bar

:07:15.:07:17.

last year. He is standing down at the next election. I began by asking

:07:18.:07:21.

him why he wanted the inquiry re-opened. The enquiry is very

:07:22.:07:29.

significant for the Labour Party. It was focused on Falkirk, but it was

:07:30.:07:33.

clearly a problem with Unite which went across the Labour Party. I

:07:34.:07:39.

believe Unite came along and interfered with witnesses, and the

:07:40.:07:45.

enquiry was stopped in Falkirk. That meant the Labour Party what off the

:07:46.:07:53.

hook. What do you think they were trying to do, Unite, under

:07:54.:07:56.

allegations of trying to influence the selection in your view? Their

:07:57.:08:02.

political purpose at the moment is to move the Labour Party to the

:08:03.:08:07.

left. It wants to put as many of its own friends and Labour colleagues

:08:08.:08:10.

into labour seat in order to follow the whip of the leadership of Unite.

:08:11.:08:18.

Labour in Falkirk was a target for that when I sadly left the party,

:08:19.:08:21.

and that therefore was the place where they put most effort in. Much

:08:22.:08:27.

more will be made public in due course. What about the chair of the

:08:28.:08:33.

Labour Party and Unite member, Stevie Denes? It is quite clear he

:08:34.:08:44.

spent much of his time at his employment instead of helping people

:08:45.:08:48.

to hang on to their jobs. He created a battle by stressing the importance

:08:49.:08:52.

of the Labour Party in the local Falkirk selection. He sits there is

:08:53.:09:03.

the chair of the Labour Party and who will be chairing this meeting

:09:04.:09:07.

next Sunday? It will be him. That cannot be a fair and reasonable

:09:08.:09:11.

situation. What action would you like Ed Miliband to take? I think he

:09:12.:09:24.

should reopen the enquiry, and carry it on with the officials who were

:09:25.:09:29.

there. We know that it was terribly undermined, but the implications of

:09:30.:09:34.

the failure to carry out the enquiry are severe for the party. This is a

:09:35.:09:38.

watershed moment, and it is important that the leadership of the

:09:39.:09:46.

party to not bottle it out. Eric Joyce, MP. We did ask Unite for

:09:47.:09:58.

an interview but no one was available. They say there is no

:09:59.:10:05.

evidence even in the e-mails that have been printed by the Sunday

:10:06.:10:11.

Times that Mr Deans did anything untoward is at all. Should they

:10:12.:10:18.

reopen the investigation? They should actively consider it. The

:10:19.:10:26.

enquiry didn't exactly find no evidence. It was faced with a

:10:27.:10:33.

situation where there had been clear evidence of concerns about what had

:10:34.:10:38.

been going on, but that evidence, key evidence, was later withdrawn by

:10:39.:10:44.

those concerned. So there was then and absence of evidence, and in that

:10:45.:10:48.

absence, it was not able to proceed. And Unite was cleared? Sort

:10:49.:10:57.

of. I have not seen the e-mails in question, but I think there was a

:10:58.:11:00.

case presented by the Sunday Times for that to be further questions

:11:01.:11:04.

which will need to be dealt with. So I don't think this is going to go

:11:05.:11:10.

away. It runs into the catastrophic tactics adopted by Unite in respect

:11:11.:11:15.

of Grangemouth. To be blunt, my analysis is that Len McCluskey put

:11:16.:11:20.

in turn union Unite politics before the interests of their members at

:11:21.:11:28.

Grangemouth plant. That is a very serious claim, because unions are

:11:29.:11:31.

there to represent their workers, and 800 people lost their jobs. It

:11:32.:11:36.

is a serious claim, but it is hard to see any other explanation for

:11:37.:11:42.

what happened. You had Stevie Deans being subject to discipline, because

:11:43.:11:45.

as it is now clear, he was using company time and money to spend on

:11:46.:11:51.

Labour Party activities, and not just the odd e-mail, but a

:11:52.:11:57.

substantial part of his time. When he is disciplined, strike action is

:11:58.:11:59.

threatened, and that spirals into further action. Mr Deans has now

:12:00.:12:05.

resigned, presumably because he accepts the strength of the case

:12:06.:12:11.

against him. Whichever way you look at what happened at Grangemouth, it

:12:12.:12:17.

is hard to see how on earth the Unite union could have ended up with

:12:18.:12:20.

those tactics where they lead their troops up to the top of the hill,

:12:21.:12:24.

they were refusing to make any kind of concessions with INEOS. They said

:12:25.:12:31.

they were calling the company's bluff, and the company was

:12:32.:12:35.

exaggerating the losses. They did, but there are better ways of calling

:12:36.:12:40.

people's bluff than to get almost to the point where the plant is closed.

:12:41.:12:44.

You don't need to be a senior executive at INEOS to know that

:12:45.:12:48.

there is substantial overcapacity at refineries across the world. He got

:12:49.:12:54.

right to the top of the hill, and like the Duke of York, scurried back

:12:55.:12:58.

down again. And what should Ed Miliband do? He has not either

:12:59.:13:06.

wattled it all runs scared. I don't have access to anything except that

:13:07.:13:11.

which I have read in the Sunday Times. It is for the committee to

:13:12.:13:19.

make a judgement about whether there it is sufficient evidence to reopen

:13:20.:13:27.

the inquiry. But if the public perception here is that something

:13:28.:13:31.

went awry in Falkirk, despite the denials from Unite, and less Ed

:13:32.:13:34.

Miliband does take action, won't he look as if he is levelling out? He

:13:35.:13:44.

has been very tough about all of these things. When information first

:13:45.:13:51.

came out about what had been going on in Falkirk, that is why the

:13:52.:13:55.

inquiry was established. Should Stevie Deans still be the chair? If

:13:56.:14:06.

there is something of concerned there, that needs to be looked at.

:14:07.:14:12.

Is it a saga that does not reflect well on the national leadership of

:14:13.:14:17.

Unite, both in respect of their relationship with the Labour Party,

:14:18.:14:21.

but also in respect of their representation of their members at a

:14:22.:14:24.

huge plantlike Grangemouth? Eric Joyce also said that Len McCluskey

:14:25.:14:32.

should go. That is a matter for them. I would say that I would put

:14:33.:14:41.

any money on the fact that his predecessor, Tony Woodley, would not

:14:42.:14:46.

have landed his union in such an appalling position as Mr McCloskey

:14:47.:14:52.

has done. What do you think it does in terms of public perception of

:14:53.:14:55.

unions, and whether they are all working in the interest of they

:14:56.:15:00.

unions? I have already had good relations -- always had good

:15:01.:15:05.

relations with the unions, when I was Home Secretary and Justice

:15:06.:15:10.

Secretary. Not just with major unions like UNISON, but I also had a

:15:11.:15:19.

special relationship with the prison Association. I see people who come

:15:20.:15:26.

in who haven't got union membership who have suffered grave injustices

:15:27.:15:32.

by their employers, but you need to have unions recognising their

:15:33.:15:34.

fundamental responsibilities to their members, and if they fail

:15:35.:15:42.

that, they felt everything. The gunmen has published a new case for

:15:43.:15:47.

HS2, the line connecting London with Birmingham, Leeds and mentored. --

:15:48.:15:50.

the government. The Transport Secretary will be speaking later

:15:51.:15:55.

this afternoon. The government says the scheme would boost the economy

:15:56.:16:03.

to the tune of ?15 billion per year. We are joined now by the Transport

:16:04.:16:09.

Minister, Susan Kramer. Welcome to the programme. As the argument of

:16:10.:16:13.

HS2 shifted? We have been talking about this for the past year or so.

:16:14.:16:19.

Initially the case was shorter journey times. That seems to have

:16:20.:16:25.

been relegated below are arguments about capacity and connectivity and

:16:26.:16:30.

economic benefits. Is that right? The discussion about capacity, which

:16:31.:16:33.

is crucial, has been there from the beginning. I think a lot of the

:16:34.:16:39.

conversational focus was on speedy because that had an element of

:16:40.:16:45.

excitement to it. The real rationale for the project has always been

:16:46.:16:50.

structured around capacity. I have been imposed two weeks. I have

:16:51.:16:54.

already had a take note that the rail regulator has turned down a new

:16:55.:17:01.

service because there is no room to put the additional trains on. We

:17:02.:17:04.

really have a severe capacity problem. You mention the economic

:17:05.:17:10.

benefits. That has been spoken about to a great extent. The estimate for

:17:11.:17:13.

the economic benefit of HS2 has now been lowered. Instead of ?2 50 per

:17:14.:17:21.

?1 spent, it is ?2 30. Will it go down again? We are confident around

:17:22.:17:29.

these numbers that you refine them as you go along. This is a

:17:30.:17:33.

sophisticated piece of refinements that is taking place. If anything, I

:17:34.:17:36.

think most people think we are understating the benefits. Why as it

:17:37.:17:44.

gone down, then? We had some costs coming out of environmental

:17:45.:17:49.

measures. That was a sensible element to make sure was included in

:17:50.:17:54.

this. So you do refine things. 2.3 is a good result for a large project

:17:55.:18:01.

taking a long period of time. As you will know, these projects continue

:18:02.:18:04.

to serve people over a long period of time. The actual demand increase,

:18:05.:18:11.

the uses by passengers, is capped three years after we finished the

:18:12.:18:20.

second stage of the project. In terms of winners and losers, do you

:18:21.:18:28.

accept the conclusion of the KPMG report that some parts of the

:18:29.:18:35.

country will just not then fed but will be losers, will become lest --

:18:36.:18:43.

will just not -- will not just not benefits but will become losers? We

:18:44.:18:53.

are looking at the proportion of the general wealth of the country is in

:18:54.:18:57.

different places and has been affected, in a sense, by HS2. We

:18:58.:19:02.

have got a whole economy that is benefiting by 15 billion. Places

:19:03.:19:06.

that are closest to the line, that can build of the Iraq potential that

:19:07.:19:14.

comes in -- the economic potential that comes in, they will do best. My

:19:15.:19:19.

point is that actually there will be some areas that lose investment

:19:20.:19:23.

because it would be redirected to those places you have just

:19:24.:19:26.

described. In other words, they will become less competitive. There are

:19:27.:19:31.

other projects going on at all times. In the next Parliament, we

:19:32.:19:38.

are spending 73 billion in transport improvements. Only 17 billion is

:19:39.:19:48.

going into HS2. There will be new trains, new electrification, new

:19:49.:19:52.

projects all over the country. They will mainly benefit the closest

:19:53.:19:56.

areas. This pattern of loss and gain is limited use. It is the

:19:57.:20:05.

distribution of wealth. Can you confirm HS2 will not go ahead

:20:06.:20:10.

without cross-party support? There has been cross-party support for

:20:11.:20:14.

this. When I sat in the house of Lords, the voices from the Labour

:20:15.:20:18.

benches and Labour peers with long experience in rail worker absolutely

:20:19.:20:23.

firm and determined. The Labour front bench was determined and clear

:20:24.:20:29.

that they are engaged fully with HS2. I expect that to be the case.

:20:30.:20:36.

In the studio are one of the leading critics of HS2 on the Conservative

:20:37.:20:40.

benches, and Jack Straw, a supporter of the scheme. Do you back on

:20:41.:20:47.

alternative or does nothing me to come? No, quite the reverse. There

:20:48.:20:57.

are lots of alternatives. Certainly there are other schemes and oppose

:20:58.:21:00.

all that have been put forward by eminent railway engineers as well.

:21:01.:21:08.

-- and proposals. Many of them, the implication is the cost would be

:21:09.:21:16.

high, around ?20 billion. The disruption was something like 14

:21:17.:21:20.

years of weekend closures to carry out alternatives so you could have

:21:21.:21:23.

something like the capacity that would be created by HS2. I think

:21:24.:21:28.

that they scaremongering story that was put about the government to try

:21:29.:21:35.

to have a precursor to a business case. -- that was a scaremongering

:21:36.:21:43.

story. We need to consider them at a time when we are having to pay the

:21:44.:21:47.

bills of the last government, is this the best way to spend our money

:21:48.:21:51.

on transport? If you are going to drop speed and moved to capacity and

:21:52.:21:57.

connectivity, HS2, as it is currently configured, does not

:21:58.:22:02.

connect properly with Heathrow or the Channel Tunnel rail link. It

:22:03.:22:06.

doesn't go into the centre of cities. As you said yourself, Jo,

:22:07.:22:11.

the has pointed out that there are going to be areas of the country

:22:12.:22:19.

that see permanent loss. -- the report has pointed out. How

:22:20.:22:29.

important is this line? There will be collectivity. If she wants to

:22:30.:22:32.

ensure that there is a line through North London to connect it with HS1,

:22:33.:22:37.

that is fine by me. But there will be more complaints from people in

:22:38.:22:42.

the southern parts of the country. Let me say more about this. As the

:22:43.:22:47.

Conservative Transport Secretary has pointed out, the Labour leaders of

:22:48.:22:53.

major cities across the north-west and the North are all backing this.

:22:54.:22:57.

So is the overwhelming majority of members of Parliament. We are at

:22:58.:23:03.

silly clear that this will bring benefits. -- we are absolutely

:23:04.:23:09.

clear. On this issue of if you have the benefits in Manchester, will it

:23:10.:23:13.

chalk activity away from other areas? -- will it draw activity. The

:23:14.:23:19.

north and north-west have been suffering for decades from a

:23:20.:23:23.

disproportionate investment that has benefited your constituents in the

:23:24.:23:27.

south and south-east. Look at crossrail. I am in favour of it. But

:23:28.:23:33.

one of the reasons London and the south-east has done so well

:23:34.:23:36.

economically is because it's transport is better. We need to

:23:37.:23:41.

rebalance this. On the rate of return, it has come down from 2.50

:23:42.:23:49.

to 2.30, and I tell you what, if my bank offered that... They won't! If

:23:50.:23:59.

Labour were so supportive of this, Jack would know it would not be on a

:24:00.:24:05.

one line whip on Thursday. If you are so concerned, as I am, with the

:24:06.:24:10.

economic health and welfare of the north, this project would be started

:24:11.:24:13.

in the north. We would be improving connectivity between those northern

:24:14.:24:17.

lines. You are talking about a project that finishes in the north

:24:18.:24:22.

by 2033 or beyond. If you build the Birmingham-London line,

:24:23.:24:26.

international experience shows that it will start to suck things more

:24:27.:24:30.

into London. Let me just say to you, Jack, Birmingham's leader and other

:24:31.:24:37.

cities, they would be in favour of it. I wouldn't expect anything else.

:24:38.:24:43.

Let Jack respond. The reason you have a line from London to

:24:44.:24:48.

Birmingham is because that is where there is a capacity constraint. That

:24:49.:24:55.

is not true. It is. The evidence is overwhelming. I see it for myself

:24:56.:24:59.

every day. I use the West Coast Mainline, and look at Euston. When

:25:00.:25:07.

it opened, the number of passengers was a tiny proportion compared to

:25:08.:25:11.

now. The place is heaving. The tracks are heaving. There has been a

:25:12.:25:16.

wonderful increase in train usage. But there was an increase in

:25:17.:25:18.

capacity, which was disruptive for years. On the Trent Valley line,

:25:19.:25:28.

there was a quadruple in. You have got to improve capacity in the

:25:29.:25:32.

South. How disappointed are those northern leaders going to be if the

:25:33.:25:37.

Chancellor pools the support? Ed Balls has been giving support. This

:25:38.:25:48.

is a matter for the whole Labour Party. His job is to raise questions

:25:49.:25:54.

about costs. I would also say this. To some extent, a project of this

:25:55.:26:01.

kind, this scale, involves some act of faith. You have to get the

:26:02.:26:07.

numbers right. Hang on a second. So did the Olympics. Why Szczesny

:26:08.:26:11.

Cabinet committee on the Olympic for four years. -- I cared the come

:26:12.:26:19.

beauty -- I chaired the Cabinet committee on the Olympics for four

:26:20.:26:27.

years. Are you sure that Labour will continue supporting this? I'm sure.

:26:28.:26:33.

We are supporting this on Thursday. If we were not, we would have our

:26:34.:26:38.

troops are there. As you know, in opposition, you always have a one

:26:39.:26:41.

line whip if you support something. How many Tory rebels do you think

:26:42.:26:49.

there will be? On the Department for transport's own figures, use and is

:26:50.:26:56.

only the second least crowded line. -- Euston. If you look at the

:26:57.:27:01.

figures, it is 28% of the trains on the West Coast Mainline that are

:27:02.:27:07.

full. With improvements, that could be improved. For example,

:27:08.:27:11.

lengthening trains. We have to finish it up there. It was the first

:27:12.:27:19.

time, thank you both, in 35 years that the presidents of Iran and the

:27:20.:27:23.

US had spoken. The short conversation between Hassan Rouhani

:27:24.:27:28.

and Barack Obama came off the last month's UN General assembly. Mr

:27:29.:27:33.

Rouhani has struck a more moderate tone than its predecessors and says

:27:34.:27:36.

he wants a deal on Iran's nuclear programme. Our guest of the day,

:27:37.:27:41.

Jack Straw, thinks the new Iranian president is a man the West can do

:27:42.:27:47.

business with. May I press the Prime Minister on

:27:48.:27:53.

this issue of relations with Iran? With respect, his previous answer

:27:54.:27:59.

sounded as if he had taken no account of the fact that since our

:28:00.:28:03.

embassy was sacked by Ahmedinejad, there has been an election in Iran,

:28:04.:28:10.

however imperfect. It has led to a different individual, Hassan

:28:11.:28:14.

Rouhani, becoming president, who, to my knowledge, somebody the West and

:28:15.:28:18.

the British Prime Minister can deal with. Could I ask you to deal

:28:19.:28:27.

carefully with the Foreign Secretary to identify areas of common interest

:28:28.:28:31.

and get them involved in solving Syria? I agree that of the election

:28:32.:28:40.

of a president who has a greater, and to reform is a good step. I have

:28:41.:28:45.

written to President Rouhani to rate a series of issues that need to be

:28:46.:28:48.

settled between Britain and Iran. Above all, we need to see progress

:28:49.:28:52.

on what the president has said himself is important, which is

:28:53.:28:56.

trying to come to an agreement where Iran gives up the idea of you clear

:28:57.:28:59.

weapons, and in return we see some relief on sanctions. That would be

:29:00.:29:05.

major progress. -- the idea of nuclear weapons. This is not hoping

:29:06.:29:10.

for the best. We have singled Iran has been capable of in the recent

:29:11.:29:15.

past. We should go in to these discussions cautiously. David

:29:16.:29:18.

Cameron. Joining us this Dr Matthew Levitt, who specialises in

:29:19.:29:24.

counterterrorism and intelligence at the Washington Institute. Welcome to

:29:25.:29:29.

the programme. First of all, do you agree that the tone has changed,

:29:30.:29:32.

that Hassan Rouhani strikes a mocha Cilic we note? There is no way the

:29:33.:29:44.

line at -- to deny that. What we need is more than statements. We

:29:45.:29:48.

need to Seattle progress, tangible progress, not only on the

:29:49.:29:54.

negotiations but on the human rights issues. -- to see tangible progress.

:29:55.:30:04.

Are you asking too much in terms of limiting its nuclear programme and

:30:05.:30:12.

what they would like? No question, we're talking about the nuclear

:30:13.:30:15.

programme and they are talking about the sanctions. But there is middle

:30:16.:30:19.

ground. We should be pursuing this devil Matic route seriously but with

:30:20.:30:31.

eyes wide open. -- diplomatic route. There can be progress. We shouldn't

:30:32.:30:35.

just take them at their word before there is actual progress on the

:30:36.:30:38.

ground. While the negotiations have to be step-by-step, there are

:30:39.:30:44.

multiple issues that have to be negotiated.

:30:45.:30:59.

Matthew Levitt said that Iran has been known for deception. The mother

:31:00.:31:03.

and father of their problems has been failure to describe -- provide

:31:04.:31:08.

full disclosure about the nuclear activity. And they are still not

:31:09.:31:14.

doing that. We are not certain. I don't disagree with what he is

:31:15.:31:20.

saying about the need for care in the negotiations. But Hassan

:31:21.:31:26.

Rouhani's election does represent a great opportunity for the West in

:31:27.:31:32.

the way that Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's election represented a setback. I

:31:33.:31:44.

hope that these negotiations with the permanent members of the

:31:45.:31:46.

Security Council and Germany will make progress. But is there really a

:31:47.:31:51.

substantive difference between Hassan Rouhani and Ahmadinejad? What

:31:52.:32:00.

is the substantive difference between what is happening in Iran

:32:01.:32:05.

now and previously? I have spent as much time as I can seeking to

:32:06.:32:08.

understand the incredibly complicated power structure in Iran.

:32:09.:32:15.

And where did it get you? With great information, not necessarily greater

:32:16.:32:23.

understanding. But behind everything is the supreme leader, and

:32:24.:32:26.

ultimately he is the final authority, but it is much more

:32:27.:32:31.

complicated than that. The fact that Hassan Rouhani was allowed to

:32:32.:32:38.

stand, and then got a much vigour vote than many people were

:32:39.:32:43.

anticipating, is an indication of the desire by the Iranians people

:32:44.:32:50.

for change. He is different from Mahmoud Ahmadinejad in terms of the

:32:51.:33:00.

things that Ahmadinejad used to say in terms of wiping Israel off the

:33:01.:33:06.

map, and denying the Holocaust. Iran has always said it's nuclear

:33:07.:33:11.

programme is a peaceful bid to generate electricity. Most people do

:33:12.:33:16.

not believe that. The real issue is this, as Mr Straw said. One is to

:33:17.:33:27.

give the resident the space to negotiate earnestly. A six-month

:33:28.:33:30.

window is a very short period of time. There are also all kinds of

:33:31.:33:38.

power leaks within Iran right now. The situation is complicated. Going

:33:39.:33:49.

with eyes wide open. But there are precedents of previous Iran

:33:50.:33:56.

presidents, and in my new book on Hezbollah, one of the things I found

:33:57.:34:04.

that I didn't use in the book because it is meant to be more about

:34:05.:34:09.

Iran, the CIA looking back at these presidencies, what they found was

:34:10.:34:16.

that none of the previous presidents were interested in

:34:17.:34:20.

curbing support for terrorism, and if they were, this would be up to

:34:21.:34:24.

the supreme leader. This is a different president. This is the

:34:25.:34:29.

history of relatively moderate presidents in Iran. The Israelis

:34:30.:34:36.

always deal with Iran very suspiciously because of previous

:34:37.:34:40.

rhetoric and their fears about any sort of attack. But if Iran wants to

:34:41.:34:47.

reach the status of a nuclear state, in which it could manufacture

:34:48.:34:51.

a nuclear bomb quite quickly, how much risk are you prepared to take?

:34:52.:34:56.

Well, the Middle East does already have on nuclear weapons state,

:34:57.:35:01.

Israel. Not that anyone admits it. But we all know it. And they have

:35:02.:35:05.

refused to accept any kind of sanction. I don't know whether Iran

:35:06.:35:12.

have nuclear weapons system, and whether they developing it. But

:35:13.:35:20.

their lack of candour, and trying to enrich uranium, raise very serious

:35:21.:35:25.

questions about their intentions. Plutonium, too. Not just uranium.

:35:26.:35:35.

And if they want to lift the sanctions, which unquestionably are

:35:36.:35:37.

biting, and as for long-term agendas, we want to see a more

:35:38.:35:43.

constructive role internationally. You have to have one step at a time,

:35:44.:35:50.

and part of the strategy of the West needs to be to help and in power

:35:51.:35:57.

Rohani. Thank you both very much. It's been a pleasure.

:35:58.:36:01.

Vigorous and sometimes raucous campaigning is what you expect in a

:36:02.:36:04.

vibrant democracy. But what happens when lies are told about rival

:36:05.:36:07.

candidates, innuendo is spread, racist or anti-semitic campaigning

:36:08.:36:09.

techniques are used? They've been an unfortunate feature of British

:36:10.:36:12.

election campaigns, and an all-party report out today suggests such

:36:13.:36:15.

practices are still prevalent. In a moment we'll hear from one of the

:36:16.:36:19.

authors of that report, but first let's remind ourselves of some

:36:20.:36:20.

memorable political campaigns. A 1983 by-election in Bermondsey was

:36:21.:36:32.

mired in accusations of homophobia. The now Lib Dem deputy leader Simon

:36:33.:36:35.

Hughes took on Labour candidate and gay rights campaigner Peter

:36:36.:36:40.

Tatchell. One liberal leaflet presented the context is a straight

:36:41.:36:44.

choice, and Simon Hughes on with one of the biggest recorded swings

:36:45.:36:48.

against Labour. He later apologised for any part of the campaign which

:36:49.:36:54.

had been homophobic. In 2005, Labour was accused of anti-Semitism when

:36:55.:36:57.

they produced a poster which critics claimed portrayed the then

:36:58.:36:59.

Conservative leader Michael Howard is fading. Labour said it was just

:37:00.:37:05.

anti-Tory. Later, Labour's Oona King fought

:37:06.:37:13.

George Galloway, who overturned a 10,000 majority. Oona King said she

:37:14.:37:17.

faced anti-Semitism in what she described as one of the dirtiest

:37:18.:37:20.

campaigns we have ever seen in British politics.

:37:21.:37:24.

And 2010 saw a campaign which could change the way elections are fought.

:37:25.:37:30.

Labour narrowly on old East and Saddleworth, but the result was

:37:31.:37:33.

declared void by an election court, which ruled he had lied about his

:37:34.:37:37.

Lib Dem opponent. And the author of that cross-party

:37:38.:37:41.

report into the conduct of election campaigns, Natascha Engel, joins us

:37:42.:37:49.

now. Some political campaigns have been dirty, it was ever thus. But

:37:50.:37:53.

what of the worst examples that you have come across? Yes, right at the

:37:54.:38:00.

outset, this was not about stopping people from campaigning robustly.

:38:01.:38:05.

And it was not about curbing freedom of speech, that was another thing

:38:06.:38:09.

that was very important. What we wanted to do was identify pieces of

:38:10.:38:12.

political campaigning that were beyond the pale, and we heard really

:38:13.:38:18.

distressing stories. The day after one candidate lost his seat in

:38:19.:38:22.

Gloucester, his children found a severed pig's head in his garden.

:38:23.:38:28.

That doesn't belong in politics. How'd you know that was a campaign

:38:29.:38:31.

thing? It could have been a vindictive member of the public?

:38:32.:38:36.

There had already been a concerted campaign against him where in the

:38:37.:38:39.

local newspaper that had been a letter to say that the population of

:38:40.:38:44.

Gloucester wasn't ready for a foreigner to represent them. He was

:38:45.:38:50.

born in Middlesex. So it is that sort of campaigning that we are

:38:51.:38:54.

really looking to stamp out. Why hasn't this been looked at before?

:38:55.:39:00.

It has, but it was looked at expressly in terms of anti-Semitism,

:39:01.:39:06.

in 2006 there was a report about anti-Semitism in electoral

:39:07.:39:09.

campaigning. The electoral commission refused to do much about

:39:10.:39:13.

it, or was certainly half-hearted about it, so we decided to widen out

:39:14.:39:17.

the remit, identify if there really was a problem, and we found that if

:39:18.:39:23.

there was a problem, we would put forward proposals.

:39:24.:39:26.

What can you do to actually stamp it out? You want campaigns to be

:39:27.:39:31.

robust. It is the crossing the line that is difficult to draw. That's

:39:32.:39:40.

right. We have law, and it is obviously the cases where the law

:39:41.:39:43.

has been broken, it can be difficult to know what to do. We want the

:39:44.:39:46.

political parties to come together and decide that we have a cultural

:39:47.:39:50.

shift in the way that we campaign, to make sure that we identify

:39:51.:39:53.

clearly when things are overstepping the mark, but most of all what we

:39:54.:39:58.

thought would be helpful was to have one person specifically responsible

:39:59.:40:01.

in each political party for taking on a complaint and having a look

:40:02.:40:05.

very quickly at whether there is something wrong. Shouldn't campaigns

:40:06.:40:09.

coordinator is be the people who deal with this sort of thing?

:40:10.:40:15.

I think this is a really good idea from Natascha. A compliance officer

:40:16.:40:25.

ought to do this. I was subject to a vicious campaign in Blackburn. I

:40:26.:40:34.

have Jewish blood in me. It was said that because I was Edu, no Muslims

:40:35.:40:39.

should vote for me. And the chap who put these leaflets around was taken

:40:40.:40:42.

before the criminal courts and convicted of an offence under

:40:43.:40:48.

electoral law. So are those laws not working, then? The laws during an

:40:49.:40:55.

election campaign are tighter than they are outside, so they need

:40:56.:41:00.

better to be used. But I entirely accept, what Simon Hughes and his

:41:01.:41:03.

friends got up to in Bermondsey, where they distributed badges which

:41:04.:41:10.

said, I have been kissed by Peter Tatchell, was even more abject given

:41:11.:41:14.

the fact that Simon Hughes subsequently accepted that he was

:41:15.:41:18.

gay, but it would have been dreadful whether he was gay or straight. The

:41:19.:41:25.

leaflet about Michael Howard was disgraceful, and there have been

:41:26.:41:33.

Conservatives who were very upset. Did you say anything about it at the

:41:34.:41:39.

time? I was unaware at the time. I have now fought nine elections. More

:41:40.:41:46.

fool you! There is no need to go in for dirty campaigning. Not in

:41:47.:41:51.

marginal seats? You need to look ahead to the election in 2015,

:41:52.:41:55.

particularly looking at the coalition, whether there are

:41:56.:41:58.

marginal seats, and they will be at each other. I think the public hate

:41:59.:42:04.

negative campaigning. What they want to know is, what do you stand for,

:42:05.:42:09.

where do you come from? The problem we identified was that there were

:42:10.:42:11.

candidates who didn't want to come forward and say that they were being

:42:12.:42:14.

negatively campaigned against for fear of being seen as weak or not

:42:15.:42:19.

being up to the rough-and-tumble of election campaigning, when actually

:42:20.:42:22.

this was stuff that was way over the line and was illegal. How do we stop

:42:23.:42:28.

that from happening in the first place and get out those sort of

:42:29.:42:33.

messages? Dirty campaigning doesn't really work, it backfires. And

:42:34.:42:37.

winning out of a dirty campaign, it takes something out of your soul.

:42:38.:42:43.

The price is far too high. We wanted to bring parties together and have a

:42:44.:42:46.

really positive framework for action. Natascha Engel, thank you

:42:47.:42:50.

very much. An unlikely pairing were the stars

:42:51.:42:54.

of a BBC One documentary last night. Tommy Robinson was the leader of the

:42:55.:42:57.

English Defence League, or EDL, who have campaigned against what they

:42:58.:43:00.

see as the "Islamification" of Britain. Tommy meets prominent

:43:01.:43:02.

British Muslim Mo Ansar, who wants the EDL banned. The film ends with

:43:03.:43:10.

Tommy Robinson's shock decision to leave the EDL. Here's a taster of

:43:11.:43:16.

what happened when Tommy met Mo. In a democracy, when you are angry,

:43:17.:43:22.

you protest. You should use your freedom of assembly, which is what

:43:23.:43:26.

we will be doing today. If an Englishman commits a crime, throws a

:43:27.:43:31.

bottle at the police, or commits a crime or gives a Nazi salute,

:43:32.:43:36.

bottle at the police, or commits a That won't happen. You have said

:43:37.:43:40.

yourself there are strange types in the EDL. If somebody commits a crime

:43:41.:43:46.

today, is it right for us to blame all English people? It is just a yes

:43:47.:43:52.

or no question. If the people pick up a book and it says throw a bottle

:43:53.:43:56.

at the police officer, and they do it, it is the book's fault. Do you

:43:57.:44:01.

accept that you are adding to fear and hysteria causing attacks on

:44:02.:44:03.

Muslims? And Mo Ansar joins us now in the

:44:04.:44:11.

studio. What do you think persuaded Tommy Robredo them to leave the

:44:12.:44:13.

English Defence League? I hope it was a combination of factors. I

:44:14.:44:19.

think 18 months with me is more than enough to force most people out of

:44:20.:44:24.

most occupations! I think spending time with people from a diverse

:44:25.:44:27.

range of Muslims, hearing different views. I think going to a mosque was

:44:28.:44:31.

important. You could have knocked him over with a feather after that.

:44:32.:44:40.

And did you change your views of him and VE Day after making that

:44:41.:44:43.

documentary? I think Tommy has been quite clear that he hasn't shifted

:44:44.:44:53.

in his views after that. I did have an impression of him. I had painted

:44:54.:45:00.

him as some kind of Goebbels figure for the 21st-century, and... And was

:45:01.:45:08.

he like that? Spending time with somebody always humanises them, and

:45:09.:45:12.

there are soft sides to him, and although I think the effect it has

:45:13.:45:19.

had on music -- Moslem communities has been disturbing, he is a complex

:45:20.:45:24.

character. The interesting thing about

:45:25.:45:26.

documentary is that your views what also challenged by other Muslims.

:45:27.:45:30.

They don't necessarily think you are a good spokesperson for moderate

:45:31.:45:40.

Islam. You accept that? Do they -- I accept that they think that. I have

:45:41.:45:46.

been working as head of diversity for an organisation, and you do

:45:47.:45:50.

things like equal rights, and stand up for women and gay rights as well.

:45:51.:45:55.

Let's take some of those issues. You are challenged on sharia law on

:45:56.:46:01.

whether you approve of these being punished by having their hands

:46:02.:46:04.

chopped off, and you refused to give a definitive answer. I think it is

:46:05.:46:13.

abhorrent. That one up. We did have that conversation, it's just doesn't

:46:14.:46:25.

make that to the public sphere. And if slaves were treated justly and

:46:26.:46:29.

with no rights whatsoever, why would anyone object? You were challenged

:46:30.:46:33.

on this last night. Twitter is an open forum where people can

:46:34.:46:37.

challenge. You think that if slaves are treated justly and with full

:46:38.:46:38.

rights, there is problem with it? If we had a three-day debate about

:46:39.:46:49.

slavery a year ago. It was about the historical context in ancient times.

:46:50.:46:55.

I hope it was quite an academic debate. Are you saying there are

:46:56.:47:00.

some instances when slavery is OK? No. I think there should be no

:47:01.:47:05.

slavery. I think that would be obvious. But you indicate that there

:47:06.:47:11.

are circumstances when... If you want to analyse something that

:47:12.:47:15.

happened hundreds of years ago, there should be academic freedom to

:47:16.:47:20.

debate those things. You mentioned women and gay rights. Tom Holland

:47:21.:47:24.

was in the documentary. He said is lamb, -- is lamb needed to be

:47:25.:47:40.

reformed. Do you agree? To an extent. If we are talking about

:47:41.:47:43.

Reformation, the Reformation required is with Ms limbs are not

:47:44.:48:00.

necessarily Islam. How are you... I hope you're not saying that

:48:01.:48:06.

Christians are the best example. I am merely talking about Islam. What

:48:07.:48:13.

about this cool to modernise or liberalise parts of Islam? I think

:48:14.:48:23.

he is talking about a Reformation in Islam as we had in Christianity.

:48:24.:48:30.

There is a great debate going on in Islam about how you relate what is

:48:31.:48:37.

in the Koran and then in the commentaries to a modern-day

:48:38.:48:42.

setting. The idea that there is one single school of thought in Islam is

:48:43.:48:49.

nonsensical. There is no single school of thought in Christianity.

:48:50.:48:52.

One of the things that has come out from what Mo says, although it is my

:48:53.:48:57.

language, is that a lot of the practices in Islam, I fact -- are in

:48:58.:49:10.

fact cultural. The position of women is cultural, based on subs with

:49:11.:49:16.

commentaries. -- subsequent commentaries. In my surgery, I say I

:49:17.:49:21.

would prefer them to remove the Vale. I also say to them, I will

:49:22.:49:27.

honour their right to wear the veil, but it makes it easy if I can see

:49:28.:49:33.

their face. I have been outspoken about Peter Holub own and several

:49:34.:49:39.

Wollaston. -- Peter Holub own and several Wollaston.

:49:40.:49:47.

What about young gills wearing the veil? -- young girls. I understand

:49:48.:49:58.

that. I had a long conversation with my wife about this. She is from

:49:59.:50:06.

Finland. She has a very European view, as do I. My view was,

:50:07.:50:11.

actually, each to their own. If parents and kids want to decide

:50:12.:50:17.

that, it is not my cup of tea, but they can do it. The headscarf is

:50:18.:50:22.

about identity. Headscarf, fine. We are talking about the veil. I'm not

:50:23.:50:32.

a fan but do we legislate? We should say, as a norm, that it is not a

:50:33.:50:42.

good idea. The former MP said more could be done to stop young girls

:50:43.:50:53.

being groomed for sex. One of the discussions we had, I spent three

:50:54.:50:56.

hours talking to the mothers and the families of victims of grooming and

:50:57.:51:03.

with members of the England defence league near to Blackburn. Part of

:51:04.:51:07.

the conversation was, we have a problem in society generally. In the

:51:08.:51:14.

UK, 200 women are abused or raped every day. They come from all

:51:15.:51:20.

races. Mo, don't dodge the issue, with respect. There are more white

:51:21.:51:28.

people locked up for sex offences than Muslims. There is a specific

:51:29.:51:34.

pub in the Muslim community will -- with the way women are treated and

:51:35.:51:37.

the young men come forward with a view of women. That can turn to lead

:51:38.:51:42.

what we have seen with grooming, where groups of predominates

:51:43.:51:49.

Pakistani men are grooming young girls. -- predominantly. We have

:51:50.:51:55.

seen organisations be very outspoken. But they haven't done

:51:56.:52:02.

enough until now. There is complacency on all sides. Thank you

:52:03.:52:09.

very much. You might think that having a politician for a parent

:52:10.:52:12.

would put you off West Mr for life. I suspect in many cases it has. --

:52:13.:52:24.

Westminster. Jack Straw to be the -- could be the next father to hand the

:52:25.:52:35.

political baton to his son. My stature has grown. 1995, and Patrick

:52:36.:52:44.

Jenkin is called to speak. Only it's not Patrick but his son on his feet.

:52:45.:52:50.

Perhaps we can forgive, on this occasion. Lord Jenkins and only left

:52:51.:52:54.

the Commons five years before his son arrived. Today, Westminster has

:52:55.:53:01.

20 MPs whose fathers were also in the Commons. You might say it is in

:53:02.:53:05.

their blood. A relatively new entrant to the Westminster family

:53:06.:53:09.

tree is the Conservative Laura Sands was on her father, Duncan, was a

:53:10.:53:14.

government minister in the 50s and 60s. When I was born, I had a pram

:53:15.:53:22.

which said, vote for daddy on the side. I was pretty much a recruit

:53:23.:53:27.

from a force to volunteer from a young age. -- a recruit, a force to

:53:28.:53:41.

volunteer. Children following their parents into politics is not new. We

:53:42.:53:45.

all remember our former Prime Minister William Gladstone, but

:53:46.:53:49.

perhaps not his son, Herbert, who became Home Secretary in 1905. Fast

:53:50.:53:56.

forward more than half a century and Douglas, now Lord Hurd, an MP in the

:53:57.:54:02.

70s, 80s and 90s, has been followed into the Commons by his son, who is

:54:03.:54:09.

currently a junior minister. Then there is the prominent Tony Benn,

:54:10.:54:14.

here campaigning in the 1963 by-election. His son, Hillary, was a

:54:15.:54:18.

Secretary of State under the Labour Prime Minister 's Blair and Brown.

:54:19.:54:26.

And this father son duo are both still grow much active in

:54:27.:54:33.

Westminster. Lindsay Hoyle is a deputy speaker. His father is a

:54:34.:54:40.

former Labour MP. The first impression was a Labour Party

:54:41.:54:44.

Conference, he was out delivering leaflets. I was the cheap Labour.

:54:45.:54:52.

I've always got that eastern memory. I was scarred for life. Did you

:54:53.:54:59.

encourage him to go into politics? Well, I hoped he might become an MP.

:55:00.:55:05.

It was up to him. He was not influenced by ourselves. We try to

:55:06.:55:11.

be as normal a family as you could. As for the latest additions, Jack

:55:12.:55:16.

Straw's son has been elected as a Labour candidate for the

:55:17.:55:18.

neighbouring constituency to his dad. John Prescott's son David hopes

:55:19.:55:23.

to be contesting Greenwich and Woolwich, and there are even rumours

:55:24.:55:28.

that Tony Blair's son is eyeing up a seat for the 20 15th election. And

:55:29.:55:34.

with us to discuss this is Matthew Parris. Before I come to you, are

:55:35.:55:39.

you pleased your son might be following you into Parliament? Yes,

:55:40.:55:43.

but he is doing it on his own merits. He is gay to have a tougher

:55:44.:55:50.

fight and to Blackburn. -- he's going to have. I don't think you

:55:51.:55:59.

would do well to draw favours by saying that Jack is going to hand

:56:00.:56:03.

the baton onto him. I think there is a strong undercurrent in British

:56:04.:56:07.

culture of resentment against, you know, it is not what you know, it is

:56:08.:56:12.

who you know. In America, they don't have a Royal Family so they

:56:13.:56:15.

reproduce it in their politics. But we do. I think, although he is your

:56:16.:56:24.

son will have got him hearings, from now on it is good to be a

:56:25.:56:28.

disadvantage that he is your son. People are going to think he is only

:56:29.:56:31.

there because he is Jack Straw's son. But it is in the blood, it is

:56:32.:56:38.

in the dinner table speech. That is the reason, rather than there might

:56:39.:56:44.

be a case of, yes, there is some help being offered. It is there all

:56:45.:56:49.

the time. I am not an eligible engineer like my father. It is

:56:50.:56:53.

different. -- an electrical engineer. I don't think there is

:56:54.:57:00.

much you can do to get your child a seat. But the public think there is.

:57:01.:57:06.

They don't like it. There may be advantages in having a dad like me,

:57:07.:57:10.

but when it comes to politics, there are only disadvantages. On this

:57:11.:57:15.

thing families and politics, my family talked about politics all the

:57:16.:57:20.

time. But they were obscure, not known. I had no baggage when I was

:57:21.:57:30.

trying to make my way in politics. You have got something to live up

:57:31.:57:40.

to. It is difficult, I would say. I know his son and he is brilliant. It

:57:41.:57:45.

will be difficult for him to live up to his father. What I would like to

:57:46.:57:53.

see is the reverse. If Boris Johnson and his brother could get their

:57:54.:57:57.

father to stand, he would be a great addition to the House of Commons. If

:57:58.:58:03.

you think Boris was colourful, try Stan! Just time before we go to find

:58:04.:58:10.

out the answer to our quiz. If you can remember, the question for today

:58:11.:58:14.

was, what our Parliamentary authorities planning to spend

:58:15.:58:20.

?250,000 on? Upgrading the gym? Straightening Big Ben? Raising the

:58:21.:58:25.

speaker chair? Or refurbishing the bars? I think it is the gym. That is

:58:26.:58:31.

terrific. I use it on a regular basis. Do you? ! Absolutely.

:58:32.:58:43.

Spinning a body blast, yoga... It is in the old cell block of a police

:58:44.:58:50.

station. You are right. It is the gym. I'm glad you're using it.

:58:51.:58:56.

Thanks to all of the our guest today. From all of us here, goodbye.

:58:57.:58:59.

Jo Coburn is joined by former foreign secretary Jack Straw to discuss all today's political news, including the latest on HS2 and asking if you are more likely to become a politician if it runs in the family.


Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS