01/11/2013 Daily Politics


01/11/2013

Andrew Neil is joined by columnist Zoe Williams and broadcaster Ian Collins to discuss the day's political news, including business and Europe.


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Transcript


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Afternoon, folks. Welcome to the Daily Politics. David Cameron

:00:39.:00:46.

travels to Cardiff to announce new powers for the Welsh Assembly. The

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state-owned bank RBS announces it will restructured to deal with ?38

:00:54.:00:58.

billion of bad assets. George Osborne said the move will make it

:00:59.:01:03.

easier to sell off the bank and get taxpayers' money back. Should

:01:04.:01:07.

football fans have more say over how clubs are run? We will discuss

:01:08.:01:11.

a plan to make English football more German. And in the first of a

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series on political thinkers, we have the low-down on Karl Marx. If

:01:18.:01:24.

you want to understand and have an interest in social justice, you

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cannot ignore Karl Marx. We never ignore Karl Marx on the

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day the politics. -- the Daily Politics. We asked for the duration,

:01:40.:01:44.

I am joined by the Birgitte Nyborg and Kasper Juul or British

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political commentary. Zoe Williams, of the Guardian newspaper, and Ian

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Collins, a broadcaster. We start with RBS, which is always in the

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news. The chief executive announced a pre-tax loss of ?634 million.

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That was for the three months to September. He put an end to

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speculation the bank would be split to deal with the ?38 billion of bad

:02:13.:02:19.

assets. These are moments that are not expected to be repaid. This is

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what the Chancellor said he was on a trip to a bicycle shop. I am

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determined to build a banking system that supports the British

:02:32.:02:35.

economy and today RBS undertakes a new direction to deal with that by

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dealing with toxic assets and making sure it is focused on the UK,

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and making sure it is the best small business bank. It should be a

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boost the economy and not a burden. We are joined by a City commentator,

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Allister Heath. Explain to us what the internal bad bank is. Surely

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the bad loans will still be on the balance sheet? You are not the only

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one to not understand what is going on. There is a weird triangulation,

:03:14.:03:21.

moving the assets from the bank, injecting taxpayers' cash, and

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dealing with them, and the status quo. I think it is not viable, the

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plan, it is more about substance. Nothing much will change. It still

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has three years to get rid of the bad assets. I do not think it has

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been doing as badly as people think, reducing bad assets by 85 per cent.

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But what has happened is the Chancellor thought it was going

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faster and he now realises that it will take a few more years and he

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will not be able to privatise the bank before the election and he is

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upset about that. He wants to change RBS and make it entirely a

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domestic and retail business bank, getting rid of the investment

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banking division and the US division and possibly the eye which

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division. He is trying to remodel the back. -- the Irish division. Is

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that in the best interests of taxpayers and when it maximise the

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resale value? And is it the best way to run the operation? A lot of

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today is not substance, it is not a really bad bank in the traditional

:04:34.:04:37.

sense. If he had wanted to do that, he should have done at five years

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ago. He was not in charge. They thought the way they were managing

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it would be the right way and now they are changing their mind. I

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would like to get another question in before it is time for dinner!

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Why is it still losing over ?600 million in a single quarter? It

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still has a lot of bad debt. They are still a lot of problems. The

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biggest problem for this and other banks is the endless spate of

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scandals that keep on hitting them. There is now an investigation into

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foreign-exchange markets and whether they have been manipulated.

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In terms of getting rid of bad assets, the bulk of that has

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happened. In some ways, they are fighting yesterday's battle. A lot

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of people underestimated the problem they still had. Maybe one

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year ago, even though the economy is recovering, there are still

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challenges. If you want to kick start credit in the economy, you

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have to get rid of the bad assets but pretending you are creating a

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bad bank by redefining some assets, it is an accounting change. I do

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not think it will help the problems. It does not look like the

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Chancellor gets his windfall this side of the election. He has had

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plenty. There are many interesting things about this. Fighting the

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last battle, as they say, regulators are always fighting the

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last thing because they do not understand what is going on. If you

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look at why they have lost 634, rather an -- and over 400 million,

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they are looking at payment protection in -- protection

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insurance. The Balkan bad debts have been offloaded. -- the bulk of

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the bad debt. They pursued banking in a dishonest way and it will

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continue until they stop it. I am probably the one person who

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bothered to try to read the last RBS business report. It is the most

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extraordinary concocted peace of writing you have ever... Whether

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you are an economist or not, put on to paper. Nobody can understand it.

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Nobody knows what is going on. Different people and wrote it. The

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overseas arm does not know what the domestic arm is doing. If they lend

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domestically, bat will be fabulous. It says to me that is his almost

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meant to be that complicated. It is the end of RBS as a major

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international...? It will cover domestic banking. That is a good

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thing. We have lost sight of what a bank is supposed to do. Briefly it

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was one of the biggest banks. But why? Because it was not doing due

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diligence on the lending. I am bored with RBS. And I am with RBS,

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also. It has been a busy Friday for the Cabinet. George Osborne has

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been touring a bicycle shop. David Cameron and Nick Clegg hot-footed

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it to Cardiff to announce new powers for the Welsh Assembly. What

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we believe in is a strong Wales within a strong United Kingdom and

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I think it will make for better government. It is good for the

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Government to be responsible for raising some of the money that its

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Benz. That leads to better conversations about how to raise it

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and spend it and how to spend it effectively and how to manage your

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economy battered. I think the changes will be good for Wales and

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accountable government. We can go to our political correspondent.

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What does this mean for Wales? The debate in the past couple of years

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has been about Scotland and independence, but, quietly, the

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Welsh Assembly has added to its powers and already has control of

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health, education transport and other things. It shifted on, the

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debate, on how it raises money and how it should be responsible for

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the money it spends each year. David Cameron and Nick Clegg came

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to announce that the Welsh Government will have the power to

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borrow money. They want to build a new motorway, so that is important.

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And also taking control of stamp duty and other taxes. The most

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significant is the proposal to take over responsibility for collecting

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some income tax in Wales. Some politicians are talking about

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cutting taxes in Wales here. They would have to have a referendum,

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endorsed by the people first. The Welsh Government is saying, we do

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not want to take on the power over income tax and the Treasury using

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it as an excuse to cut funding for the Welsh Government. It sounds

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like a big headline, but it is not cut and dried yet. Is there

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correlation between the more powers devolved to Cardiff and the worse

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the Health and school system gets? This is one of the proposals. If

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they are not devolved, should it have a knock on effect on the money

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coming in from the Treasury that stop one argument from David

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Cameron is that that it is about growing up as a country and taking

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responsibility for money you spend. There are politics about this

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because we will hear more about what has happened in Wales in the

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Scottish referendum campaign. The Unionist side saying you can have

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more powers without going the whole way and leaving the United Kingdom.

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In other words, devolution can work. When will England get home rule?

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Factory, it is hilarious. The idea that Wales is a country no more

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than England. Of course it is not a country. Check the United Nations.

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I doubt. It is not a country. It is not a nation state, it is still a

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country. We are the United Kingdom. We are regions. The idea that

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something the size of a postage stamp has four administrative

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bodies is a massive waste of money. The idea that nobody questions it

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is like a huge elephant in the room. Do you see something that will

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counteract the complaints we will get from Wales? I do not agree. You

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can have a conversation as you would in America between federal

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and state legislation and rights without reference to how large the

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state is. What you are talking about his self governance. Many

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people believe that everything you can make at a local level you

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should make at a local map will. We have county councils. Wales is like

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a big county council. The more they raise revenue, the more autonomy

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they can have a good decisions. When you look at what they do, they

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ring-fence budgets and freeze taxation. The council may have

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rights on paper, but they have no actual money. Should England have

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more home rule? From Wales? If Wales can set tax rates and if

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Scotland can. Scotland has total control of schools and its health

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system. Should England have the same? They do not interfere with

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what we do any way. Every Scottish MP can vote on English schools and

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Scottish schools. You want to hound the Scottish MPs for fun. I was

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asking a serious question! It is time for the daily quiz. It is ?5.

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A huge donation for the Poppy Appeal. That has doubled my fee!

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Wife did the Green Party leader Natalie Bennett give me ?5

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yesterday? At the end of the show, our guests will give the correct

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answer. A new campaign group in favour of change in Britain's

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relationship with the EU has a survey out. Almost half the

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business leaders said the cost of complying with single-market

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regulations outweigh the benefits of being in the European Union.

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It's part of a growing debate about our membership if the European

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Union. Here's a reminder of where we are. In January, David Cameron

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made a keynote speech on in which he pledged an in-out referendum on

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the UK's membership of the EU. In his speech the Prime Minister said

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it was time for British people to have their say. Before negotiations

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can get under way, he has to wait for the European elections. The

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next important date is the British election on 7th May 1920 15. If

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there is a Conservative victory, there will be an intense period of

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renegotiation with the European Union for a new settlement between

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UK and the European Union. Why would our European partners

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allow us to essentially do a pick and mix? First of all, I am not sure

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that is what would be happening, because there is a lot of discontent

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about what the EU is doing in terms of centralisation, all over Europe.

:15:50.:15:54.

Secondly, I think there is a real danger from the rest of the EU

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needlepoint if you that if no change is made, and if there is a poll in

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2017 and beyond, that Britain would leave, and I think a lot of

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countries in the EU do not want to see that happening. But if this is a

:16:07.:16:15.

unilateral Britain negotiating, and if it becomes a grand plan for

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reform, in which everybody would be involved, well, firstly, I would

:16:19.:16:23.

suggest to you that there is no consensus about what these reforms

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would be, and secondly, it would take forever. It would take a

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decade. I am not sure the EU has got a decade to get all of this done,

:16:34.:16:36.

but there are really serious problems in the Eurozone. Not as

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serious as they nobody is talking about Greece leaving now. Not at the

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moment, but only because huge debts have been run up they may well come

:16:48.:16:53.

back to bite everybody belatedly soon. But there will have to be

:16:54.:16:57.

substantive changes in Europe to make the Eurozone viable in the

:16:58.:17:00.

long-term, and that is going to involve considerable changes of all

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sorts, which provides us I think with an opportunity, for the people

:17:05.:17:08.

not in the euro, to redefine the role we are going to have. Give me a

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concrete example of how British business would benefit if we were

:17:14.:17:19.

either out of the EU or if they was a major renegotiation and we stayed

:17:20.:17:23.

in, how would we benefit? Well, I think some of the changes which

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would be made would be ones which are detailed in the report, issues

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around employment law, health and safety, taxation, all of these other

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issues which have been raised. I think the real emphasis which comes

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out of this report is that it is business wants to have these

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decisions taken in London and not in Brussels, and they do not believe

:17:50.:17:53.

that a one size fits all approach on these issues works well. But

:17:54.:17:58.

overall, is it your view that British business still wants to stay

:17:59.:18:02.

in? I think British business does want to stay in, if they can get

:18:03.:18:06.

changes made along the lines that we propose. Does it want to stay in if

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all that is on offer is the status quo? I think that would be a much

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closer call, and it depends a bit on what happens with the Eurozone and

:18:18.:18:21.

the euro over the next few years. But if those who want to see Britain

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staying in the euro want to support the right course, I think they want

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to support ours, because they are much more likely to stay in the EU

:18:31.:18:34.

if the changes we advocate are made. What is your take on this,

:18:35.:18:41.

Zoe? I think it hinges on being able to renegotiate with trading

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partners. A lot of people think it is not that important, because our

:18:46.:18:49.

non-European partners are not buying very much. Resume ugly, one hopes

:18:50.:18:53.

that once the EU recovers, they will buy much more from us. In terms of

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volume, it is still our biggest... Exactly, and that is not going to

:19:03.:19:06.

change. It is only changing rapidly because the EU is skint, but once

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they recover, we are not going to replace our EU trading partners with

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the new countries, not in a million years. The whole thing is an organic

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process, is it not we can have a pick and mix approach, everybody

:19:28.:19:30.

goes, that is fine, we want to keep you in the EU so much that you can

:19:31.:19:34.

have what you want, and if they did say that, there would be a good case

:19:35.:19:40.

for it, but we do not know. Hold on, Mrs Merkel may well agree to a pick

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and mix approach, but she is now going to have to form a grand

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alliance with the social Democrats, and they are against the pick and

:19:48.:19:53.

mix. That is assuming she loses. There is no evidence whatsoever that

:19:54.:19:58.

M Hollande, whose son the ratings are falling by the minute, is going

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to do Britain any favours at all. And I detecting a certain animosity

:20:06.:20:10.

towards Europe? No, what you detect Israel politic, which is the

:20:11.:20:16.

opposite of the position that our guest is taking, that the Europeans

:20:17.:20:21.

will be in any mood to do us any favours, and why should they? --

:20:22.:20:36.

realpolitik. Are you talking about the heads of state, the various

:20:37.:20:39.

treasuries within it, the commissioners? Is it the whole

:20:40.:20:44.

immovable system called the EU, or is it individuals within it? The

:20:45.:20:50.

thing is, they do tend to vote as a block, you rarely get a situation

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where they are split. They might want to say, hello, EU, we have got

:20:59.:21:03.

a new idea, let's give it a go. The logic of a Treasury Minister in

:21:04.:21:08.

France would have to see that. That is right. Also, there are enormous

:21:09.:21:11.

problems going to be created by the rest of the EU if we leave. We pay

:21:12.:21:16.

in net something like ?12 billion per year. Who is going to replace

:21:17.:21:21.

that? But you would want to bring that down, presumably. We would want

:21:22.:21:28.

to bring it down a bit, yes. Here is the irony, that the only way you

:21:29.:21:32.

will get this kind of reorganisation you are talking about is if Mr

:21:33.:21:35.

Cameron wins the next election, and I thought you donate money to the

:21:36.:21:42.

Labour Party? Well, I think there is a feeling across the political

:21:43.:21:48.

spectrum that we want changes. Mr Miliband is not promising to

:21:49.:21:52.

renegotiate anything. Well, I do not think that is entirely true, they

:21:53.:21:57.

want some changes. But not a major renegotiation. The only person

:21:58.:22:03.

promising a renegotiation, and then a referendum, in or out, is David

:22:04.:22:08.

Cameron. I think that so you really need Mr Cameron to win the next

:22:09.:22:12.

election. Well, it is not just Mr Cameron who is saying that we will

:22:13.:22:16.

be having a referendum. You need to prepare the ground. Mr Miliband is

:22:17.:22:23.

not promising one. No, but the Lib Dems are moving a little bit in that

:22:24.:22:31.

direction. Really? I do not know, but I do think that if you want to

:22:32.:22:36.

stay in... It is interesting that if that is your line, it would seem to

:22:37.:22:40.

me that your best chance of getting there is a Tory government. Do you

:22:41.:22:44.

now regret within the Labour Party this donation of shares, which led

:22:45.:22:49.

to the accusations of tax avoidance? Well, there was no tax avoidance at

:22:50.:22:55.

any stage. I said accusations. Well, the I do not regret it at all.

:22:56.:23:02.

Giving them shares, why did you not just give them the dosh? Because I

:23:03.:23:06.

had not got the dosh. Why did you not sell the shares and give them

:23:07.:23:11.

the dosh? I did not want to sell the shares. So why did you not -- so why

:23:12.:23:18.

did you just give them away? You do not pay dividends. Yes, we do. You

:23:19.:23:25.

are a private company. That does not stop us paying dividends. How big is

:23:26.:23:32.

your dividend? It is normally about a third, up to 40%, of the net

:23:33.:23:39.

profit we make. But you measure a dividend by its value to the shares,

:23:40.:23:43.

so, if the Labour Party has got ?1 million worth of shares, what income

:23:44.:23:47.

will it get? It produces about ?8,000 a month. Just about enough to

:23:48.:23:54.

keep Ed Miliband in Boston red Sox shirts. Wine are you giving money to

:23:55.:24:02.

the Labour Party? I have always supported the Labour Party. I think

:24:03.:24:10.

there are loads of people on the left who want to negotiate about the

:24:11.:24:14.

EU. There is nobody who has put it on the table, nobody who has made

:24:15.:24:22.

that statement, but that does not mean it is part of -- it is not part

:24:23.:24:25.

of the discussion. Workers of the world Unite! Go on,

:24:26.:24:38.

you know you want to. Yes, the teachings of Karl Marx have been in

:24:39.:24:44.

the news a fair amount recently, with David Cameron accusing Ed

:24:45.:24:49.

Miliband living on a Marxist planet, after he announced plans to freeze

:24:50.:24:53.

energy prices. So, does Marx have any relevance to the 21st century?

:24:54.:24:59.

In a new Daily Politics series on political thinkers, Giles has been

:25:00.:25:03.

checking out the story of Karl Marx, with an all-time fan, the

:25:04.:25:06.

left-wing columnist Owen Jones. London's trashy, trendy SoHo is not

:25:07.:25:30.

the first place that comes to mind when you think of Karl Marx. He

:25:31.:25:34.

would be very at home here. He was at home here. He lived in this

:25:35.:25:39.

building in the 1850s, and London became the Communist capital of the

:25:40.:25:42.

world. I am off to meet a man who not only thinks Karl Marx is much

:25:43.:25:46.

maligned, but that he is still relevant today. That is quite hard

:25:47.:25:51.

for 21st century society, when the man was waiting here, exiled from

:25:52.:25:55.

Paris, in the 1850s. But my guest wants to drag him from museum relic

:25:56.:26:00.

to modern relevance, via the pub. So, come on, why do you like Marx so

:26:01.:26:08.

much? I could not avoid him growing up. I have got four generations of

:26:09.:26:12.

family who were involved in some sort of radical politics. More than

:26:13.:26:16.

a few copies of Karl Marx were lying around when I was growing up. We are

:26:17.:26:20.

sat opposite the British Museum, where he wrote Das Kapital, but he

:26:21.:26:28.

was often more comfortable sat in the pub. He certainly like to drink,

:26:29.:26:32.

he went on these infamous pub crawls. He is reputed to have

:26:33.:26:36.

smashed a mirror in this very pub with a bar stool. He was chased by

:26:37.:26:40.

police officers because of his drunken antics. That is not what

:26:41.:26:45.

makes me interested in Marx, it is his ideas, and I think a lot of them

:26:46.:26:49.

are still relevant today. One example, alienation, the idea that

:26:50.:26:52.

by working for someone else, you lose control of your own life, your

:26:53.:26:57.

destiny, your humanity. I think today, when you work in a call

:26:58.:27:00.

centre or an office, you could certainly drink to that. As Karl

:27:01.:27:12.

Marx himself would say, prost! Another expert says, like him or

:27:13.:27:17.

loathe him, Marx is a huge figure. Karl Marx is the one who has got an

:27:18.:27:27.

ism, the only person for whom you can be a Marxist. The criticism of

:27:28.:27:35.

him, however, is extensive. Marx is criticised for exactly the reason

:27:36.:27:39.

that his admirers admire him. According to him, it is production

:27:40.:27:44.

which explains everything else and many of his critics say that is just

:27:45.:27:49.

plain wrong. There is another issue, which is that he thought about the

:27:50.:27:54.

role of the Communist Party in a way that, with hindsight, we can see

:27:55.:28:03.

enabled Lenin to develop his idea of the Vanguard Party, which opened up

:28:04.:28:10.

the way to the authoritarian states of the Soviet era. That is clearly

:28:11.:28:16.

something to put to our fan, but not before I have shown him something at

:28:17.:28:22.

the Marx Memorial library. So, for decades after it was first

:28:23.:28:27.

rubbished, this very early edition of the The Communist Manifesto. This

:28:28.:28:34.

was when Engels was still alive, and do not forget, this is the second

:28:35.:28:39.

most read book on earth. But is that not the problem, of all think, he is

:28:40.:28:44.

the one that gets the charge, you are responsible for the death of

:28:45.:28:47.

millions of people. Blaming Marx for the Stalinist totalitarian regimes,

:28:48.:28:53.

which killed millions of people, it is a bit like blaming Jesus for the

:28:54.:28:57.

Crusades. There is nothing in his book whatsoever which backs the

:28:58.:29:00.

Stalinist police state. But there is lots in there about revolution.

:29:01.:29:05.

Absolutely, but do not forget, he is writing at a time when despots

:29:06.:29:10.

dominated the European continent. Even in Britain, there was not

:29:11.:29:14.

universal suffrage, even for men. He later argued that if you had

:29:15.:29:18.

universal suffrage for men, you could have a democratic, peaceful

:29:19.:29:22.

transition to socialism, as it would allow a majority of working people

:29:23.:29:23.

to be elected to Parliament just. Karl Marx's grape is a big monument.

:29:24.:29:47.

Of the jury it was quite small -- his grave. Originally, it was quite

:29:48.:29:59.

small. There he is. What an relevance does Karl Marx have to

:30:00.:30:05.

politics today? Is it over? You would have to be an armed

:30:06.:30:10.

revolution or even on the left to think that he was a prescient bloke.

:30:11.:30:18.

He wrote how capitalism lurched constantly from crisis to crisis.

:30:19.:30:23.

He also predicted capitalism would create a huge working-class and on

:30:24.:30:27.

a global scale, that is what has happened. If you want to understand

:30:28.:30:32.

the world, and you are interested in social justice, you cannot

:30:33.:30:41.

ignore Karl Marx. Owen Jones joins us now. You are a fan of Karl Marx?

:30:42.:30:56.

He was a big influence. Like row -- Ralf Miliband, does that mean you

:30:57.:31:03.

hate Britain?! The Daily Mail, which hates everything about

:31:04.:31:07.

Britain, demonising somebody on the left. Often you have the left

:31:08.:31:11.

construed as the enemy within when the left is about fighting for

:31:12.:31:18.

country which is more equal. That is not hating the country. The

:31:19.:31:23.

British Communists were not that keen to fight for Britain until

:31:24.:31:37.

Nazis had invaded. If you want me to defend Stalinism, you have the

:31:38.:31:45.

wrong person. You said in the film you cannot blame Karl Marx for the

:31:46.:31:55.

gulag. Give me a Marxist state that did not lead to that. It was not

:31:56.:32:01.

about prescriptions and saying this is what socialism would look like.

:32:02.:32:06.

It was an analysis of capitalism. Give me a state that did not lead

:32:07.:32:12.

to terrible loss of life. You had two branches of Marxism. One of

:32:13.:32:18.

them ending up in totalitarianism and starred in. If you look at the

:32:19.:32:25.

German Social Democrats, they themselves are an offshoot of

:32:26.:32:32.

Marxism. In 1958, the Democrats met and repudiated Karl Marx. They

:32:33.:32:36.

presided over a country that became one of the richest in the world.

:32:37.:32:44.

The German Social Democrats were in power longer than that. However

:32:45.:32:49.

they are involved, and it is a crucial point, Marxism is an

:32:50.:32:54.

analysis of capitalism. It did not say what socialism would look like.

:32:55.:33:01.

Name me a Marxist country in the 20th, 21st century, that did not

:33:02.:33:06.

need to a terrible loss of civil liberties, poverty and degradation?

:33:07.:33:13.

As I had said, when you look at European social democracy, the

:33:14.:33:17.

French Socialists, the German Social Democrats, in Spain, the

:33:18.:33:22.

Socialist Workers' Party, those originated from the Marxist

:33:23.:33:27.

tradition. And the modern form of social democracy, even though it

:33:28.:33:31.

has departed from where it began, it traces its origins to Marxism. I

:33:32.:33:41.

was asking for any example. I have given examples. They detested the

:33:42.:33:51.

parliamentary road to socialism. That is a misconception. When they

:33:52.:33:55.

are talking about the revolution they discussed at the time when

:33:56.:33:59.

kings and despots ruled Europe, what Karl Marx said, in the early

:34:00.:34:13.

18th Fifties. -- 1850s. We were not ruled by a despot. Britain was not

:34:14.:34:18.

a democracy then. It excluded working-class people. The point I

:34:19.:34:25.

am making is what Karl Marx said was if you had universal suffrage,

:34:26.:34:32.

instead of armed insurrection, in a country like Britain, as it moved

:34:33.:34:38.

to Universal's up bridge, it would allow the majority of people from

:34:39.:34:43.

working-class Britain to be elected -- universal suffrage. The air must

:34:44.:34:48.

be something wrong with Marxism if everywhere where it has been

:34:49.:34:55.

attempted to implement it, it has ended up with totalitarianism, the

:34:56.:35:00.

loss of democracy. We keep coming back. You will get annoyed because

:35:01.:35:07.

you will find me repetitive. The Soviet totalitarian system... It is

:35:08.:35:13.

not just the Soviet, it is China and Cuba. Venezuela has shades of

:35:14.:35:20.

it. Venezuela is a separate case. The point is that modern social

:35:21.:35:25.

democracy, the lap, in this country, and across Europe, -- if you like.

:35:26.:35:35.

A Social Democrat is about accepting capitalism as the best

:35:36.:35:43.

model that needs to be changed. A society not in the interests of the

:35:44.:35:48.

people at the top, but extending democracy. It is about empowering

:35:49.:35:54.

working people in the broadest sense. Shifting power from those at

:35:55.:36:06.

the top. Are you a Marks is? I would not say I am. I would say I

:36:07.:36:13.

am influenced -- are you a Marxist? I am influenced. I will give you

:36:14.:36:18.

another example. The senior economist at UBS bank, he wrote an

:36:19.:36:22.

article talking about how we need to learn from Karl Marx. You cannot

:36:23.:36:27.

understand the modern world without looking to him. There is something

:36:28.:36:34.

superstitious about the way nobody can hear the word without saying we

:36:35.:36:39.

will be Communists, we are going to die! The millions of Russians and

:36:40.:36:45.

Chinese that turned out to be true. You have not had to live in these

:36:46.:36:50.

societies. You asked me what I thought and you talk to the me. --

:36:51.:37:00.

talked over me. This man was an economist. He told the world what

:37:01.:37:05.

was going wrong with capitalism. He told the world right on many issues.

:37:06.:37:12.

The fact that some people use his name to start revolutions that

:37:13.:37:17.

resulted in comm Estates is nothing to do with Karl Marx. East Germany,

:37:18.:37:23.

the Democratic Republic, would we ever argue... Good Marxism and bad

:37:24.:37:31.

Marxism, a narrative forced... It is crazy. Surely the lesson is that

:37:32.:37:37.

if you tinker with left-wing politics, that is where you end up?

:37:38.:37:43.

The lesson is not if you go near Karl Marx, we will end up in a

:37:44.:37:54.

gulag. Read it, find out if it is true, and if you find something,

:37:55.:37:59.

take it seriously. You keep saying he was right. He predicted the

:38:00.:38:04.

collapse of capitalism. The last time I looked, cap and it --

:38:05.:38:13.

capitalism... It you look at the process where he predicted the end

:38:14.:38:18.

of capitalism, he was talking about cannibalistic capitalism, so

:38:19.:38:22.

rapacious it closed down competition between itself and you

:38:23.:38:26.

ended up with large corporations running everything. It you see

:38:27.:38:29.

something like the energy markets and the public markets, it is

:38:30.:38:39.

happening in front of us. We have run out of time. His Ed Miliband a

:38:40.:38:46.

Marxist? I do not think any... Well, the Daily Mail. It is interesting,

:38:47.:38:55.

the rhetoric, if you want a fairer society and you want working people

:38:56.:39:00.

to have wealth and power, you are a frothing at the mouth, a guest. I

:39:01.:39:07.

am a democratic socialist who wants a society where wealth and power is

:39:08.:39:18.

distributed -- -- Marxist. If you understand it, people are looking

:39:19.:39:28.

to Karl Marx. And you cannot get rid of it. You are a failure at

:39:29.:39:34.

giving us a better system. We are waiting for the Utopia. The

:39:35.:39:40.

argument that left have to come up with is a coherent alternative that

:39:41.:39:48.

resonates with people. We gave you the airwaves to do it today. We

:39:49.:39:52.

have been talking about Karl Marx and the Soviet Union for most of it,

:39:53.:40:01.

but fair enough. I found that... Never mind. We will be looking at

:40:02.:40:06.

political thinkers ranging from Edmund Burke to Thomas Paine. The

:40:07.:40:15.

Trans Atlantic row over States by none civilians took a new turn with

:40:16.:40:19.

John Kerry saying that in some cases you are -- US buying has gone

:40:20.:40:34.

too far. -- US spying. We are in danger of sleep walking. It is not

:40:35.:40:41.

planned, it is not the actions of benevolent individuals, it is the

:40:42.:40:44.

trend of what will happen if nothing is done to stop it. The

:40:45.:40:48.

definitions of war and peace are no longer the same and the enemies of

:40:49.:40:55.

faces, it can be argued. That argument is one that prime

:40:56.:40:58.

ministers and Home Secretaries have put. If we shake up the law in

:40:59.:41:02.

response to this fear, chipping away at liberty and privacy, they

:41:03.:41:09.

have won. Every operation that has foiled a terrorist plot in this

:41:10.:41:13.

country has been dependent upon communications data over the past

:41:14.:41:17.

decade and it is essential for the agencies to have those powers. UK

:41:18.:41:23.

surveillance over citizens has increased exponentially. The legal

:41:24.:41:30.

basis has sometimes appeared strained. At best, oversight is

:41:31.:41:35.

frayed. Legitimate debate is at risk of being drowned out by

:41:36.:41:41.

assertions of national security. Spying is dangerous. It is about

:41:42.:41:48.

risk. Our men and women put their lives at risk to protect Britain.

:41:49.:41:54.

There is a downside of getting it wrong. If you do, people die. The

:41:55.:42:00.

this is the secret state laid bare. The Government acting without the

:42:01.:42:04.

knowledge or permission of citizens, a breach of the moral and legal

:42:05.:42:11.

rights of individuals. Just like when they take away the votes of

:42:12.:42:16.

the misguided, but common good is not a defence. Our basic rights as

:42:17.:42:27.

individuals have to be sacrosanct. We have been joined by the

:42:28.:42:31.

Conservative MP who spoke in that debate. You say the surveillance

:42:32.:42:36.

has grown exponentially. What is the evidence? Reports show that.

:42:37.:42:43.

You have raw numbers. It is difficult to delve down into them.

:42:44.:42:47.

I do not have the numbers to hand, but there has been an increase, for

:42:48.:42:52.

example, in the interception of communications data and wide use of

:42:53.:43:03.

surveillance. We do not have a huge amount of data. The annual report

:43:04.:43:12.

showed it has increased. Do you think telephone calls are being

:43:13.:43:16.

monitored? Is it depends what you mean, they look at what is called

:43:17.:43:24.

the envelope. If you trawl back over a long period, and you can

:43:25.:43:29.

develop a close picture of what people are doing. And the

:43:30.:43:33.

distinction drawn between the envelope and content. It breaks

:43:34.:43:39.

down quite quickly. How many people does GCHQ employee? Many hundreds.

:43:40.:43:47.

5000. But even 5000 could not keep tabs on every telephone call. This

:43:48.:43:55.

is an Aunt Sally. There is no doubt the scope of surveillance has

:43:56.:44:00.

increased. Do we know what they are doing? Do we have proper oversight?

:44:01.:44:06.

These are questions the Secretary of State in the US is asking, John

:44:07.:44:18.

Kerry. We had a good debate, but we will have to see a closer scrutiny

:44:19.:44:26.

Opel what is going on. -- scrutiny over what is going on. Then reason

:44:27.:44:31.

why it's certain types of surveillance have increased is

:44:32.:44:34.

because the nature of terrorism has changed. It does not involve people

:44:35.:44:39.

flying planes into buildings any more, coming from Saudi Arabia, it

:44:40.:44:45.

involves people in this country, communicating with each other to

:44:46.:44:52.

plan to kill. That is why these are Bateman's, I would suggest, has

:44:53.:44:57.

grown. I suspect the nature of terrorism has not changed, but the

:44:58.:45:00.

nature of communication. There is no doubt they should have

:45:01.:45:15.

the powers to pursue that, although quite what the safeguards should

:45:16.:45:18.

be, that is another question. But we want to make sure that we have got a

:45:19.:45:22.

rough idea of what they are doing. We want to make sure the legal

:45:23.:45:29.

position is protected. If you believe in democracy and the rule of

:45:30.:45:32.

law, and at the same time you want to pursue national security, it

:45:33.:45:38.

cannot be healthy. Is it your view that Parliament oversight is too

:45:39.:45:40.

weak and should be strengthened? Yes. I think Sir Malcolm Rifkind and

:45:41.:45:46.

the IOC do a reasonable job, I have no doubt about their individual

:45:47.:45:53.

capacity, but I think the Intelligence And Security Committee

:45:54.:45:56.

needs to be made of it more independent, like they have in the

:45:57.:46:01.

US. Although in the US, they did not produce any better results than in

:46:02.:46:05.

Britain, they were not monitoring what their own intelligence services

:46:06.:46:09.

were up to. Well think if you look over the years, it has produced a

:46:10.:46:12.

bit more transparency. Across the board in Congress, and from the

:46:13.:46:16.

Secretary of State, we are hearing from them, we are going to act. I

:46:17.:46:22.

think this committee needs to be a proper committee of Parliament, and

:46:23.:46:25.

accountable to Parliament. The tweaks that need to be done

:46:26.:46:30.

relatively small, to make that work more effectively. What do you say? I

:46:31.:46:37.

spoke to someone, I do not know whether you would call her a spook,

:46:38.:46:41.

somebody who formerly worked in one area of intelligence, who said, a

:46:42.:46:47.

lot of this, as bad as it is, and we have heard about governments doing

:46:48.:46:51.

things without the permission of the citizens, a lot of this is the

:46:52.:46:54.

vanity project of the different head honchos who sit there in the

:46:55.:46:59.

intelligence services. The idea that the Prime Minister is saying, spy on

:47:00.:47:04.

Merkel, it is just nonsense. Most of the time, it is just because they

:47:05.:47:08.

are able to, because they are allowed to, and they have the

:47:09.:47:12.

technology, so, give it a go. They may need it, they might not. But

:47:13.:47:18.

surely there is a widespread view that American intelligence is just

:47:19.:47:21.

off the reservation, and it seems to be on the rampage. But I think it is

:47:22.:47:31.

because they can do it, as distinct from looking for a specific story.

:47:32.:47:34.

What are they going to find on Angela Merkel's phone, for goodness

:47:35.:47:39.

sake of she is the Chancellor of the most powerful country in Europe. I

:47:40.:47:43.

do not think she is going to be leaving voice mails. This is absurd,

:47:44.:47:57.

it is absolutely absurd. I care a lot less about foreign leaders

:47:58.:48:01.

surveilling themselves, and more about Big Brother looking at

:48:02.:48:04.

innocent British citizens. The point is that even if the surveillance is

:48:05.:48:08.

done almost inadvertently, because they can, and you do it on such a

:48:09.:48:13.

scale, and there are so many contractors, thousands having access

:48:14.:48:16.

to it, it actually ends up making us more vulnerable. And I do not think

:48:17.:48:21.

it helps the cause of the agencies. There is one other point, but if you

:48:22.:48:27.

think of all of this controversy around national security

:48:28.:48:29.

surveillance, what do you think about the snooper's charter, which

:48:30.:48:33.

was proposed, to extended to town halls and quangos? I hope that one

:48:34.:48:38.

effect of this will be to cut off at the legs the idea of increasing even

:48:39.:48:42.

further that kind of surveillance. England's football clubs have

:48:43.:48:47.

revenues of more than ?3 billion a year, with much of it coming from

:48:48.:48:52.

football fans paying for tickets, TV subscriptions and merchandising. But

:48:53.:48:54.

there is a growing mood among fans that they have been taken for

:48:55.:48:58.

granted, and they want more say over how the clubs are run. It has been

:48:59.:49:03.

on the minds of politicians as well. Mark Denten reports. It is a damp

:49:04.:49:08.

evening, but this club are going through their paces in training. It

:49:09.:49:11.

is what happens off the pitch which is really interesting, because this

:49:12.:49:14.

is a place where fans really have their say. We have our annual

:49:15.:49:19.

general meeting, where the fans can turn up, the chairman, all of the

:49:20.:49:24.

roles are voted on. It is up to the fans. If you have done a good job,

:49:25.:49:32.

you stay. If you have not, you can be voted out as easy as that. 50

:49:33.:49:37.

miles away, nine levels up the football ladder, a rather different

:49:38.:49:42.

mood. There have been a series of protests by Newcastle United fans

:49:43.:49:46.

against the club's owner. Just outside St James' Park, in this pub,

:49:47.:49:49.

you will not struggle to find frustrated fans. The board have

:49:50.:49:55.

never taken our support seriously. It is almost as if the fans have

:49:56.:50:00.

supported the club despite what has gone on at board level. Newcastle in

:50:01.:50:07.

my it is a one club city. In recent years particularly, the club has

:50:08.:50:12.

been disengaged from the people who put money into the club. I want a

:50:13.:50:17.

fan member on the board, I think that would be enormously important.

:50:18.:50:23.

It would make a big difference to the football club and it might stop

:50:24.:50:27.

the football club making PR disasters as frequently as they do.

:50:28.:50:31.

Just a few months ago, the Government said it wanted to bring

:50:32.:50:35.

in a law as soon as possible to give fans a bigger say in the running of

:50:36.:50:39.

football clubs. But we have learned that idea has now been shelved. It

:50:40.:50:44.

seems there is not enough time in the Parliamentary schedule - no

:50:45.:50:49.

option for extra time for a foot or fans law. But people over there want

:50:50.:50:57.

action. -- a football fans' law. At this Business School, there is a

:50:58.:51:00.

conference organised by the supporters trust at Newcastle. It is

:51:01.:51:07.

just unfair to raise expectations, to go with what appears to be a

:51:08.:51:11.

populist idea, and then simply to say, we do not have time now, we are

:51:12.:51:16.

not going to do this. It helps them to appear to be part of the people

:51:17.:51:20.

they represent, but it is just not high enough up on their agenda,

:51:21.:51:26.

which is disappointing. They do things these fans have a big say in

:51:27.:51:30.

the running of their club. In fact, there is a national and on anyone

:51:31.:51:34.

owning more than half a football club. In Germany, traditionally, all

:51:35.:51:40.

clubs are member owned. That means we, the members, the club belongs to

:51:41.:51:46.

us. For example, at the AGM, we have the right to change the club

:51:47.:51:50.

statute. If you are a member, you really feel the club belongs to you.

:51:51.:51:54.

You are not just a fan, you are a lot more. It is our club, instead of

:51:55.:51:59.

something you just support. Grassroots football, the players

:52:00.:52:02.

show their skills but it is the fans that call the shots. It is the kind

:52:03.:52:08.

of thing supporters at top clubs can only dream of. It is the way English

:52:09.:52:12.

football works these days, and tackling it would be a challenge. We

:52:13.:52:16.

asked the Premier League and the Football League for an interview,

:52:17.:52:23.

but they both declined. The Government's sports Minister also

:52:24.:52:26.

declined. We are joined by the Labour MPm Thomas, who did not

:52:27.:52:33.

decline. Don't you think politicians have more to worry about than

:52:34.:52:38.

football? I think we do, but I think there are football clubs across the

:52:39.:52:42.

country which are hugely important in the lives of their fans and

:52:43.:52:49.

communities up and down the UK. I think the number of clubs where fans

:52:50.:52:52.

are saying, we want to have more of a say in the running of our club,

:52:53.:52:57.

the numbers of clubs which have got into financial trouble, suggests

:52:58.:53:01.

that with the Premier League and the Football League not being willing to

:53:02.:53:03.

act, then the Government should be willing to act to give for the oil

:53:04.:53:07.

fans more of a say. Is that not a matter between the fans and their

:53:08.:53:13.

club? Well, it is, but at the moment, the odds are stacked against

:53:14.:53:17.

the football fans being able to get a say in the running of their club,

:53:18.:53:21.

unless the club gets into financial trouble. The reason we need

:53:22.:53:26.

government to act is because then, you have the chance of the playing

:53:27.:53:30.

field being levelled up, and fans being given more of a right perhaps

:53:31.:53:34.

to send a representative along to board meetings, perhaps to have much

:53:35.:53:38.

more information about the way in which their club is run. That is

:53:39.:53:42.

surely not too much to ask and would not take too much Parliamentary time

:53:43.:53:46.

to deliver. If fans should in your view have this power, why shouldn't

:53:47.:53:51.

workers have the right to be on the boards of the companies they work

:53:52.:53:54.

for? Well, in some countries, that is the case. I belong to the

:53:55.:54:00.

co-operative party, and we think that people should have more ability

:54:01.:54:03.

and support to cooperate in the running of enterprises. It just

:54:04.:54:08.

seems to pick on foot hole, which, at the end of the day, is just a

:54:09.:54:13.

sport. Whereas if this is an important principle, of consumers

:54:14.:54:18.

and workers being involved, then should they not be playing a much

:54:19.:54:21.

bigger role in the running of our companies? Why is it not right for

:54:22.:54:28.

the people who work for British Telecom or Vodafone or Tata Steel?

:54:29.:54:34.

Used the example in your package of Germany. In Germany, for example,

:54:35.:54:38.

much of the energy supply increasingly is delivered right

:54:39.:54:43.

energy cooperatives, individual people combining, pulling resources,

:54:44.:54:46.

to produce energy. We know it works in Germany, both in foot and in

:54:47.:54:51.

energy and in other ways. Why can't we have more of those types of

:54:52.:54:58.

models in the UK? But where would it leave a company, and I say company

:54:59.:55:04.

advisedly, like Manchester United? It is a multi-billion pound empire,

:55:05.:55:08.

so how would it work? It seems to me there is nothing wrong with the idea

:55:09.:55:13.

of one of Manchester United's fans being elected by their supporters

:55:14.:55:21.

trust, and Manchester United has the biggest such trust in the country,

:55:22.:55:25.

being elected to sit on their board. So, you have got one guy

:55:26.:55:30.

sitting on this board full of Arab sheiks and American businessmen and

:55:31.:55:34.

sponsors and all the rest of it, property developers, and you have

:55:35.:55:38.

got this one we chuck on his own... It does not sound fair! There is

:55:39.:55:43.

always a risk of somebody going native in that sense. But if you are

:55:44.:55:48.

answerable to all of the other fans through the trust, your

:55:49.:55:58.

accountability is different. I am very interested that you would raise

:55:59.:56:01.

the example of Manchester United, because it is the key of everything

:56:02.:56:05.

that has gone wrong in foot all. The Glazer family come in, they did not

:56:06.:56:08.

have the money to buy it, they borrowed the money, and in order to

:56:09.:56:12.

pay back the money, they screwed the fans for all they are worth. You say

:56:13.:56:19.

it is just sport, it is only foot all, but what you are talking about

:56:20.:56:22.

is a massive thing which people care deeply about, which is a huge binder

:56:23.:56:27.

of communities, which is a huge pride and joy, and big corporations

:56:28.:56:33.

come in and sting the people for everything they have got it is

:56:34.:56:40.

terrible. I love the idea that Labour are going to come in and give

:56:41.:56:44.

us free energy, and a free football club as well. How generous! Thank

:56:45.:56:50.

you for your advice, but... We have run out of time. I mentioned

:56:51.:56:56.

Manchester United because it is the only football team I have heard of.

:56:57.:57:08.

Now, The Week In 60 Seconds. High noon for the dirty half-dozen, with

:57:09.:57:12.

MPs gunning for the big six energy firms at a select committee hearing.

:57:13.:57:20.

And the heat is on at the Old Bailey. David Cameron's former spin

:57:21.:57:25.

doctor Andy Coulson and seven former colleagues are in the dock over

:57:26.:57:28.

allegations of phone hacking. They deny the charges. High Speed 2

:57:29.:57:36.

trundled onwards, with APs MPs voting to start spending money on

:57:37.:57:40.

the project. We had the news that two thirds of the text received in

:57:41.:57:47.

this campaign were fake. The vans themselves have been sent home. And

:57:48.:57:56.

he really is Red Ed, at least when it comes to the Boston red Sox. He

:57:57.:57:59.

was up all night watching his favourite baseball team and treating

:58:00.:58:03.

his delight at their victory in the World Series.

:58:04.:58:13.

All these politicians, they talk about football because they think it

:58:14.:58:20.

links them to the people. Even people who went to public school and

:58:21.:58:23.

never touched a football. There is Ed Miliband doing something which,

:58:24.:58:27.

there is no votes in it, I thought it was rather endearing. He loves

:58:28.:58:32.

baseball, so he stayed up all night to watch the red Sox. There are no

:58:33.:58:36.

votes in it on paper, because none of us are red Sox fans, but it is an

:58:37.:58:42.

identity builder. It is, I may seem a bit geeky, and IM, but I am also a

:58:43.:58:49.

bit like you, because I stay up all night. He is looking for a

:58:50.:58:58.

personality, isn't he? He knows a lot about it. I thought it was very

:58:59.:59:02.

human of him. Time to find the answer to the quiz, and the question

:59:03.:59:09.

was, why did the Green Party leader Natalie Bennett give me five quid?

:59:10.:59:15.

Because she offered to pay your next month's gas bill? No, it is because

:59:16.:59:24.

she bet me that UKIP would have more councillors than the Green Party, or

:59:25.:59:28.

the other way around. Thank you to all of my guests. I will be back on

:59:29.:59:33.

Sunday with The Sunday Politics. My guests will include Len McCluskey

:59:34.:59:39.

and the Secretary-General of the Muslim Council of Britain. Bye-bye.

:59:40.:59:44.

Andrew Neil is joined by columnist Zoe Williams and broadcaster Ian Collins to discuss the day's political news. Including a discussion on business and Europe, and the first in the series of 'My Favourite Political Thinker'.


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